October 2001 posts
Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- OnM, 15:05:20 10/03/01 Wed
*******
Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey, and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion...
*******
It was so... clear... on this spot. I remember how... shiny... and clear... everything was. But now... now...
*******
I will make a prediction that this episode will cause a lot of division of opinion among the Buffyverse faithful, for in the entire five years that I have watched this series, I simply cannot recall a darker episode than Bargaining.
Make no mistake, I find myself-- as is usually the case with the writers and actors of the Buffyverse-- in awe of people who take what should be the most banal of cliches and turn them into something as powerful and disturbing as this is. I’m thinking of all the carping and bitching of those who, when the first (now obviously fairly accurate) spoilers were leaked in the early summer, were immediately presuming that ‘it could never work’, ‘it’s too trite’, ‘oh please, not a spell’, ‘oh please not more of the Buffybot’, etc. etc. Well, they were wrong. The writers and actors did it, they made it work, and they kept it reasonably true to the mythology as it has so far been presented over the last five years.
Joss has stated on many occasions that he writes for the fans, and that he gives them what they need, not necessarily what they want. For sure, when I tuned in last evening, as anxious as any out there to see how the very non-trivial issue of death and rebirth/resurrection was going to be taken in hand, I really didn’t want to see the results that I saw.
Not because it was done badly, but because there is only so much pain one cares to stand, and Bargaining is all about pain, and guilt, and loss, and how to deal with it. As one ATPo poster has already remarked, this is still a show that doesn’t pull any punches, and I feel pretty safe in saying that there must be many out there like myself who were left reeling by what for all intents and purposes amounts to the pyschological rape of the heroine who, three short/long months ago, so willingly gave the ultimate gift of her life to save those that she loved.
In the recent thread where we were speculating as to what Buffy’s first words would be after her resurrection, most of us, myself included, concentrated on fashioning one of the trademark clever quips that engender a laugh along with the irony. This was before Joss’s promise of ‘it will be very, very difficult’ was made flesh and film, and as I sat in my chair, watching the young woman who just moments before had literally clawed her way out of the earth, gasping for breath, stunned and disoriented at turning about and seeing her own name on a gravestone. I knew then that the words, when finally uttered, were going to be full of anguish, and that there would be no cleverness or irony to redeem them. Seeing her walk down a ravaged street, with fires splitting open the night, I guessed what those words were going to be, and it was with little satisfaction that my guess proved correct. It was all so chillingly logical, and so hard to bear.
This is not the way I would have written this story, but then as a semi-failed romantic, I seek not so much happiness ever after as a sense of overall justice and righteousness. In my version of the Buffyverse, sacrifices deserve rewards, not more pain, and certainly not pain at this level. That this idealistic, and unrealistic worldview conflicts with the nature of the realverse is not much consolation, since fiction seeks to provide an escape from that tired and battered plane of existence for many persons, myself among them.
It is true that we really don’t know what will happen, how this will all turn out. Our past experience with the show makes us well aware that it has evolved from the simple, mainly episodic formula it utilized in the first season into what essentially is a single, very long story broken into 22 chapters, much like a novel, and each ‘book’ in turn leads to another. While most reviews in the media that I have seen or heard have been very positive, some have declared that the 6th season premiere was ‘plodding’ or that too much was left unresolved. The same type of comments have been leveled before, but I believe that they are either due to a lack of understanding that the series is no longer truly episodic in nature as to it’s plotlines and overall story arcs, or simply as a way of trying to deal with the far more emotionally based, and thus inherently non-objective fact that at any given point in time, we just may not like the place that the character’s souls currently happen to be.
That being said, and to avoid the risk of going on in this particular vein and so making this collection of my thoughts into a complete downer, I want to go into the things that I admire about this season opener, and where it may go in the future that will strike a balance with the darkness, and perhaps even ultimately move back into the light.
First off, though I mentioned it right up front, it bears mentioning again that I admire the willingness of the show’s creators and the new network to avoid taking the easy way out of all this. There were many fears among many fans that the resurrection of our heroine would be ‘cheesey’, or that UPN might try to reign in Joss’s vision for the sake of garnering good ratings and returns on its rather costly investment. If they have made it through the season opener intact, all should bode well for the future, since this episode was obviously made for the existing fans of the series, and not with any serious attempt to immediately garner a new, expanded audience. I really cannot imagine a worse episode to try to introduce someone completely new to the show. As I watched the series of clips at the very beginning, I became consciously aware of a fact that I already apparently held subconsciously-- that after five years of the collective assembly of this mythology, it is no longer possible to explain enough of it in any reasonable time so that a newcomer could even begin to understand. The only way is to either just dive in, trusting what your friends have told you, and go with it until understanding gradually appears, or else set yourself down and view at least the last two years in preparation. Sorry, but I don’t see any other way.
Second, there are now a number of potential sub-arcs already appearing that promise engrossing future viewing. The main, immediate arc of NeoBuffy’s reassimilation into whatever level of post-traumatic ‘normalcy’ she can attain will obviously not be worked out for at least several more eps. Willow is continuing her transformation into a being of such power that she may well rival, or even exceed Buffy in this aspect. Considering the nature of their personal interaction in the early years of the series, this is every bit as radical a shift as the one that has been engendered in Cordelia during her time spent with Angel in L.A. Willow once told Buffy that she would ‘never be like you’, referring to the supernatural powers that are Buffy’s heritage as the Slayer. This is no longer true, and Willow will increasingly need to deal with the enormous responsibility that comes with such power. While she may understand the idea of responsibility intellectually, she has never had first-hand experience with it, and of course that’s a very different thing.
There is the Xander/Anya arc, and it was clearly evidenced last night that there may be bumps in the road ahead here, but things are very ambiguous as to the long-term, so who knows what will transpire along this line. Willow and Tara seem more solid than ever, which I have to wonder about, considering the possible repercussions of the resurrection spell. Giles is out of the picture for at least the bulk of the season, reinforcing the reality that the Scooby Gang is truly on their own now.
Spike? I was pleased to see he didn’t come to the rescue at the end. It would have been the obvious thing to do, have him join the fight and be shocked to discover Buffy having returned to the land of the living. They put it off for next week, a good move, as the inevitable meet-up-- and emotional reactions thereto-- deserves some serious screen time of it’s own. His continuing platonic relationship with Dawn, and the possibly less-platonic one coming up with NeoBuffy will keep us speculating and posting for weeks and weeks.
Ah, Dawn. I find it truly astounding that there were those who actually complained bitterly about the addition of her character to the show. Tractenberg is incredible, I can’t even begin to fathom how someone so young can have such natural acting abilities. She and Gellar have a rapport on-screen that makes every moment between them electric. From the standpoint of justifying the enormous amount of suffering that appeared on-screen this episode, she was the bright and shining presence. The scene where the camera cuts from a shot of Willow and Tara holding one another in bed, to where Dawn rises from her bed and goes to lie down beside the Buffybot-- this strange and somehow compelling machine that is all she has left of the physical presence of her sister-- was a masterstroke. As I have already mentioned, Bargaining, was not a prime introduction to the show for those completely unfamiliar with it, but if by chance you were attemping to initiate a virgin into the realms of Buffydom, rewind your tape to that scene, play it again for your friend, and then simply say, "See? That moment perfectly defines the emotional and spiritual essence of the show. Moments like that are why these stories live and breathe inside our souls." If they don’t get it, then you’ll know to move on.
And then there is Gellar. In my previous posts and essays regarding The Gift, The Body, Forever and others, I have maintained that Sarah Michelle Gellar is at her very best as an actor when she is required to paint the canvas with delicate strokes of subtle emotional nuance, rather than in broad swatches of motion or action. If Sarah ever leaves the show, and Joss wishes to continue it, I feel confident that Michelle Tractenberg could carry a role as ‘Dawn, the Vampire Slayer’, and make the show a good one. But, and meaning absolutely no slight of any kind to MT or her obvious gifts, there is simply no Buffy without Gellar.
A large part of the disquiet I feel so far towards this new season is directly a result of Sarah and her work. She now completely inhabits this character, and all of the character’s incarnations. Effortlessly (or so it seems, of course we know it’s anything but effortless in actual practice), she moves between the endearing perkiness and surprising warmth and presence of the Buffybot, into the haunted, soul-ravaged visage of the resurrected NeoBuffy, the latter portrayal in particular so heart-rending that I shudder to think from what part of her psyche she somehow pulled those emotions out of. The scene on the tower, where the positions have now reversed, and it becomes Dawn who must save her, and by extension the rest of humankind, is a flawless counterpoint to the way the previous season ended. Gellar’s dead-on reading of the critical moment conveys to us a clear emotional understanding of that existential despair that NeoBuffy faces, and why she would consider leaping to her death not as an act of heroism, but only to seek the solace of unsensing, unfeeling oblivion. This would be an act that no one would ever associate with the original Buffy we all know and admire, the one who understood the nature of love, and whose soul both recognized and seized upon that one perfect moment of spiritual clarity and brightness, and did what needed to be done, to the saving of us all. No matter how skillfully this scene was written and directed, it required the actor to make us accept the unthinkable, and believe it to be real. Sarah came through. I bow down most humbly in appreciation.
OK, I’m sure I’ll think of some more things as time goes on. I’m glad this story was the season opener, and not the end of last season, and that in just one short week, we’ll be back again to see what happens next.
Please, writer people, we know you can make us hate you and still come back for more, pathetic wretches that we are, but cast some light on the proceedings real soon, willya? We’re only mortal, and we need our happy Buffy back again.
Oh, and what’s up with the numbers 7, 11 and 13?
*******
Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey, and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion?
*******
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: God, that was brilliant. Agree with Everything you said. -- Dedalus, 15:08:49 10/03/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Shall we start an episodic link on the Existential Scoobies site for these reviews also? -- Liq, 15:10:10 10/03/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: That's a good idea ... OnM would make a great Ex. Scooby reviewer -- Dedalus, 15:49:00 10/04/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- Rufus, 16:17:56 10/03/01 Wed
I liked this ep. I didn't want happy happy, I wanted bloody, dirty, work. In The Gift, Buffy said that She's me. The monks made her out of me. I hold her...and I feel closer to her than......It's not just the memories they built. It's physical. Dawn....is a part of me. The only part that I.... The last person Buffy spoke to, held, was Dawn, she died at Dawn. Her rebirth into the night had to be so frightening, no reward for her work, Buffy was lost. When it came time, Buffy did slay the demons but fled to find the place where things had been clear, the bright,shiny thing she craved. When Buffy got to the tower it was a crumbling hulk of junk some "crazy people" put together, it wasn't the path to the way out of her "hell". On the platform, Buffy was welcomed back into this world by that part of herself she prized so much she was willing to die for her. Dawn wasn't doing well, this life is hard with that part of her she misses so much she can climb next to a machine to feel comfort. Dawn could only beg her sister to help her live this life, come back to her and the world. Buffy answered the call of Dawn....the glowy, shiny, key who is her sister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- gds, 16:40:28 10/03/01 Wed
Excellant review.
I was anxious about how it would go, but I received some assurances from the title credits. The music seem to be note for note the way it was last year. (I hope them to keep that music forever.) The clips with the music were updated for the season, but in the same way they always have been. Of course over the summer I had built up such high expectations that no show could possibly live up to, but it was a very good show. I was also very interested, waiting for her first words.
There were many great lines in it. My favorite was Spike's description of school.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Let's grow up ;) -- cknight, 19:38:05 10/03/01 Wed
I liked the darker tone of the episode. Theme of this season is the Scoobies growing up. the world they live in isn't going to be the same anymore. Just as these characters have to come to accept this, we also as viewers (watchers :) )must accept also. Who would want to see the same crap everyweek? If you do check out Special Unit 2. The dark stuff Willow's been flirting with, then Giles killing Ben showed that the show is heading down a new path.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Let's grow up ;) -- OnM, 06:45:26 10/04/01 Thu
The darkness involving the Scoobies was darkness that I expected. What I did not expect was the idea that Buffy would awake from 'the big sleep' and find herself in what to all outward appearances was hell. I deliberately used the admittedly provacative term 'psychological rape' to describe the feeling of what I saw the writers doing to Buffy, and this is what made me so extremely uneasy. This goes well beyond simple darkness, this is doing violence to the hero's soul on an ultimate level-- we aren't just talking losing your boyfreind in order to save the world, or even losing your mother-- we are talking about rewarding a hero with eternal punishment.
That it isn't actually true, isn't the point. To Buffy's perspective it is. Is it right to violate your hero figure in such a drastic manner, or in other words, did they 'cross the line' here?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Let's grow up ;) -- Dedalus, 07:41:23 10/04/01 Thu
Actually, Whedon said this season was going to be lighter.
I like the phrase you offered up, OnM. Is it right to violate your hero character like that? I don't know. I honestly don't. I'm sure this is setting up something big, but it was a little cross the liney.
Then again, I have faith in Buffy. If anyone can pull herself out of this and make herself and the world better, it's her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> a lighter season? -- celticross, 09:05:59 10/04/01 Thu
Well, it certainly can't get too much darker...and I hope that they don't get in a rush to get to the lighter stuff and gloss over the fact that the season's opened on a pretty traumatic note, for all involved. How's Buffy going to handle being alive again? Will it effect her as the Slayer? (as a person, I don't think there's any question of that) How will this effect her relationship to the SG? Where are our two couples in the SG headed? What will happen to Spike now? How much more psychological torment will the writers rain down on poor Dawn?
However, season 5 did begin on a pretty light and fluffy note. (who would have ever figured Buffy dead at season's end while watching BvsD?) So maybe Joss and Co were just getting out the majority of their angst now, instead of later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> a lighter season? -- celticross, 09:06:14 10/04/01 Thu
Well, it certainly can't get too much darker...and I hope that they don't get in a rush to get to the lighter stuff and gloss over the fact that the season's opened on a pretty traumatic note, for all involved. How's Buffy going to handle being alive again? Will it effect her as the Slayer? (as a person, I don't think there's any question of that) How will this effect her relationship to the SG? Where are our two couples in the SG headed? What will happen to Spike now? How much more psychological torment will the writers rain down on poor Dawn?
However, season 5 did begin on a pretty light and fluffy note. (who would have ever figured Buffy dead at season's end while watching BvsD?) So maybe Joss and Co were just getting out the majority of their angst now, instead of later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: a lighter season? -- cknight, 16:48:46 10/04/01 Thu
I thought the season was suppose to dark. :)
I agree that it shouldn't get too light hearted, to quick that would cheapen what just happened.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> OnM - you rock! -- Marie, 07:16:20 10/04/01 Thu
Blimey, that was brilliant! I haven't even seen the episodes, although (spoiler trollop that I am!) I'm reading all about it, and your post is the one that actually brought tears in my eyes, because I could envision it so well from your marvellous descriptions (if you don't write already - you should!), and 'hear' the lines in the character's voices.
I doff my cap and salute you.
Marie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: OnM - you rock! -- John Burwood, 12:28:35 10/04/01 Thu
Seconded, Marie. OnM speaks for me on the incredible emotional power of both the acting and writing of Buffy - and does it so much better than I could aspire to. Like you, I will not see Bargaining until January, but I do remember the total emotional involvement I got in Buffy during the early seasons through Gellar's acting. I got hooked on the rare moments of light & appreciation in Buffy's life, living on Joyce's praise in School Hard,and loving Buffy's SAT scores & the Class Protector award more I would if they had happened to me. But maybe the wonder of such moments of happiness is rendered more ecstatic by their rarity. Like OnM I pray for some moments of happiness for my beloved Buffy. I can lap up crumbs, if that is all there is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- mundusmundi, 13:02:00 10/04/01 Thu
As always, OnM, you've given us lots to think about.
Particularly for me, your essay has echoes of Roger Ebert's review of Blue Velvet from about 15 years ago. In it, Ebert praised David Lynch's consummate skill but condemned the director's treatment of his lead actress, Isabella Rosellini. For Ebert, there is a line between depicting painful subjects and exploiting them -- such as, say, showing IR plopped naked and beaten on a suburban front lawn -- and in his opinion Lynch crossed it.
While I have grown to detest the spoilers (as much as I'm admittedly drawn to them ;), I wonder if part of their attraction isn't a subconscious desire for some of us to map out the treacherous landscape of the Bufyverse, finding these ambiguous lines, avoiding the ambushes Whedon & Co. hope to spring on us. (Last night in our chat I suggested only half-facetiously that Joss should issue a syllabus of the season, effectively eradicating the smug Wandas of the world.) For those viewers with more willpower than the rest of us, there was some speculation that Buffy would come back happier, more at peace with herself. Based on what we've seen before, I braced myself for how I intuited it was all going to come down. Tolstoy begins Anna Karenina (sp?) with the words: "All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unique in its own way." The familial bonds of the Scooby Gang have regularly been tested with extraordinary tension and pain. I wouldn't call them unhappy; but they are undoubtedly more uniquely interesting than they would be without the challenges they face. We viewers may hope to see good things happen to characters we love, but let's face it, a show called Buffy the Happy Slayer isn't going to hold any of us for very long. On some level, we want them to suffer.
Bargaining could indeed be defined as the darkest episode yet, but truth be told I've been wrung out more by earlier ones. (The Body/Forever, Consequences, and Becoming come to mind.) If anything, the opening hour by Marti Noxon seemed to risk being too bubbly, too light-hearted through the playful humor of the Buffybot. It took me a while to realize that the mood was deliberately deceptive, showing that the Scoobies were trying to return to business as usual when the fact was that things had changed. (The ep could very easily be called Denial instead.)
Because most of OnM's critique is on Part II, we should take a look at its writer, the extravagantly talented, aptly-named David Fury, and his contribution therein. Based on interviews, Fury may be the most spiritually-minded of Whedon's writing crew; and based on his past work he appears to have an almost medieval sense of divine retribution. Bargaining isn't the first time Fury has been accused of pushing things too far. Crush, his examination of Spike's infatuation with Buffy, was brilliant until the final 10 minutes, when for some it flew off the rails. Fury likes to work viewers over, and in Bargaining, as OnM mentioned, he takes the vision of a hell on earth further than anyone might have imagined.
For all this, though, what this episode has left me is not Buffy's pain, but her amazing fortitude. The single most indelible image was Buffy punching out of her grave, gasping for air, instinctively choosing life. It truly was a rebirth. We all enter this world crying at the instant pain that is the price of life. She reached the primitive state of the First Slayer—not through a "resurrection," like a Christ figure, but coming out of the womb of nature, reborn via its blood.
To be sure, much of this was painful. But we also saw hope and courage displayed even as the inferno raged on. The dividing of the Scooby Seven as they sojourned through the Dante-esque Sunnydale reinforced why we care for them so much. (I'm particularly impressed by Xander, more than ever the group's moral compass.) And Buffy's own fighting acumen appears stronger than ever: I can't recall seeing her dispatch demons so easily. There will doubtlessly be more pain, more troubles ahead. But the Halloween episode, the musical ep, and the upcoming arrival of the "Weenie Three" promise plenty of humor and fun as well. Buffy has been given a second (or third) shot at life; based on Bargaining, it seems likely she'll make the most of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Rufus, 13:53:28 10/04/01 Thu
The guides words in Intervention still hold true especially now where Buffy has to struggle back to her reborn life and that moment of clarity. What she knew on that platform, she is now searching to regain. This will be the biggest test or her life, death, and rebirth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Dedalus, 14:53:01 10/04/01 Thu
Good catch, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
I don't know. I'm just being overprotective of Buffy I suppose, but I don't think this was part of the plan. If in fact there was a plan. The Guide told Buffy death was her gift also, but heck, that pretty much went down the toilet after Willow's meddling. We're in new territory, me thinks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Rufus, 19:18:38 10/04/01 Thu
Who says that tests are scheduled in a convenient way. Buffy was just about to reject her rebirth, her call back to the real world. Dawn called her back and she accepted that call. Buffy is still "the" Slayer, Slayers are always tested. Death was her gift but that doesn't mean that it's the only one. Only the territory is different, the Slayer is the same. Unless she starts eating brains then Willow could be in deep sh*t......:):):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Buffy-The Giver of Life -- Wulfmanjac, 21:53:58 10/04/01 Thu
____________________________________________________________
"The single most indelible image was Buffy punching out of her grave, gasping for air, instinctively choosing life. It truly was a rebirth"
________________________________________________________
Buffy always chooses life. That's what's most incredible about her character and the development of the heroic mythos around her. She always reaches for the emotional link and survives through those connections.
This leads to an incredible contrast between Willow's path to power and Buffy's. Willow has essentially chosen her path herself and justifies it with extreme rationality and logic. The means are justified by the ends. It's all science really. Magic is simply a systems application applied to the natural world.
I think this sets up an interesting set of confrontations among the Scooby’s. A sacrifice was made for Buffy, whether it was Innocence, Life, the Soul, doesn't really matter, Willow is giving up her self, her core essence, piece by piece, and separating herself out from the gang as she does it. I just finished watching Bargaining again, and I'm pretty sure I saw several looks of disappointment from Buffy towards Willow before and after the demon confrontations.
Buffy's spirit and innate love of humanity vs. Willow's hard headed rational intellect. Interesting possibilities yet to be spun.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy-The Giver of Life -- mm, 13:24:17 10/05/01 Fri
I just finished watching Bargaining again, and I'm pretty sure I saw several looks of disappointment from Buffy towards Willow before and after the demon confrontations.
Will have to check that out. Interesting. And I think you're right that an ugly confrontation -- B vs. W -- is going to eventually come down. (May have been another reason for the Buffybot: to have Willow feeling in control of Buffy, even a faux one. Perhaps also Willow'll feel that Buffy "owes" her her life.)
If you're new, BTW, welcome!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I can't compete with your critical abilities, OnM, but here are my thoughts. -- Humanitas, 15:50:48 10/04/01 Thu
OK, first the disclaimer - I'm watching Bargaining on tape as I type this - only my second viewing, so stuff may occur to me as we go.
Part I - Darkness
I have to agree that this ep is pretty dark, especially for a Season Opener. I mean, we have
* the sudden slaughter of a fawn (indisputably one of the cutest creature in the entire world),
* plenty of Darkest Magic, including the snakes crawling under Willow's skin (my skin was crawling too),
* a simulacrum of the recently departed (is there anything more painful?), and of course
* A rotted corpse re-animating on camera.
After all that, a demon biker gang tearing up Sunnydale seems almost prosaic!
Speaking of demons, I noticed also that the demons were more, well, infernal, than usual. They didn't have the humor that the badguys on this show usually have, and some of the things they said were really disturbing. I'm thinking particularly of the "anatomical incompatibilities" line. >Shudder!!<
On the other hand, I think it needed to be dark. After all, the hero is dead, and the sidekicks have no choice but to indulge in a little necromancy to get her back. That's almost the textbook definition of a dark moment. That said, this episode was not the unrelenting sob-fest that The Body and The Gift were. There were more laughs, and heartier. Plus, there wasn't the sense of impending doom and dispair that permeated the last few episodes of S5.
Part II - So Did It Work?
I certainly think so. first of all, I was impressed that they kept Buffy dead for the first hour and fifteen minutes. That means when people view this in syndication, there will be an episode without Buffy in it. Odd to think about. Any other show would have had her back in at least the first half-hour, if not the first fifteen minutes. And the process was both painful and intense. [BTW, I just got to the fawn scene - Willow is definitely upset about the who thing, but determined to Do What Must Be Done.] Nothing cheap here. They even got in the requisite disclaimers about it "not being like Dawn trying to bring back Mrs. Summers" for all us fans.
Even after the resurrection, it's still hard. Buffy claws her way out of her own grave (which is a cool parallelism with one of the origins of vampire stories), and wanders through a Sunnydale turned into Hell, not sure where she is. The only thing that can possibly pull her out is Dawn, and the parallels with the end of The Gift are beautifully drawn, from the music to Dawn's unfinished line: "You have to live fo..." Perfectly balanced between not enough and too heavy-handed.
Part III - Foreshadowy Goodness
Here's my list - did I forget anything?
* Dawn is still a klepto - took Willow's clogs.
* Anya and Xander have definite issues.
* Willow slide into Darkness continues - aside from the necromancy, she's keeping things from her friends - almost always bad in the Jossverse.
* Giles and Spike both have major guilt.
* Tera is finally coming ito her own - she didn't stutter once.
* Buffy is even tougher than she used to be - that was quite the beat-down the demons gave her, and she just shook it off.
Part IV - Acting
OnM has pretty well covered SMG, and I agree, but I'd like to call attention to the work done by Nicholas Brendan. He developed Xander beautifully, showing by turns his maturity, compassion, bravery, and determination, while all the while still being the funny and inept old Xander we all know and love. How he pulls that off, I wish I knew, but I think this episode represents some of the best work we've ever seen from NB.
Conclusion
Once again, Joss and company have done the impossible. They took a situation that not only can destroy a series, but has in the past, and turned it into a launching point for the next phase of their hero's story. If this ep is any indication, I can't wait for the rest of the season!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Excellent Deconstruction, Humanitas -- mm, 20:26:47 10/04/01 Thu
To summarize what I long-windedly spieled earlier, while Buffy's journey through Sunnydale "hell" was harrowing, I knew of course that she was mistaken, and that she would turn out more or less okay. That's different, it seems, from the "reality" of some of her past torments, or frankly what Willow went through Tues night. (So did Joss & Co. cross the line? Yeah, but then they moved it forward a few more inches. ;)
We're also agreed on NB. His indignation following the spell -- "Snakes coming out of her mouth? What the hell was that all about?" -- was one of his finest moments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yep, sure was. Dunno what he means by the 'can't compete' stuff...;) -- OnM, 20:42:39 10/04/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Yep, sure was. Dunno what he means by the 'can't compete' stuff...;) -- Humanitas, 14:08:22 10/05/01 Fri
I just meant that your notion of "psychological rape" really hit home, and had never occurred to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> just wanted to say, that was an awesome analysis! (NT) -- Lunarchickk, 18:45:24 10/05/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: thanks OnM -- bible belt, 20:10:14 10/05/01 Fri
Great job. Buffy's struggle in this episode was very heart-wrenching to me, but I could never express that very well. I think you have.
Astrology and Bargaining -- Wisewoman, 15:23:49 10/03/01 Wed
Just realized something of minor interest: Tara remarks to Willow that the spell is taking place while Mercury is retrograde, which is happening right now, from October 2 to 22/23. The episode could have aired anytime during those three weeks and the comment would be accurate. However, moving the premiere from October 9 to October 2 also meant that the spell was performed on the night of the Full Moon.
Neat! ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Humanitas, 16:22:07 10/03/01 Wed
Yeah, but I kept expecting them to mention Void of Course. Damn Dark Alchemy and it's sinister obscure references! ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Solitude1056, 16:58:47 10/03/01 Wed
Yeah, but "void of course" is for the duration of the moon within a planet's influence, whereas mercury retrograde happens like every 45 days or something. IOW, Void of Course happens every third or fourth day, just in a different sign each time, and mercury retrograde's a cyclical thing... and it's not really retrograde, if I remember my physics/math properly - it's just that mercury appears to go backwards through the heavens.
Although why anyone would do a spell during mercury retrograde is beyond me. It's when all communication gets screwed up, and what would normally make a friend laugh might offend them cause they don't understand what you're saying, or when it's bad to negotiate because everything will seem jumbled and put nerves on edge from the bad communication. I'm guessing the writers said, "ooh, mercury retrograde, there's a nice phrase and it sounds like things go backwards!" but in fact, mercury's the god of communications so the only thing going backwards are any messages. Like, say, the ones starting with "osirus, hear me." And Osirus would say, "what's that? you want her to stay dead? Uh, okay."
Heh.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Devon, 17:03:38 10/03/01 Wed
LOLOLOL! Here I am trying very hard to be patient and not do some kind of necessary magick, and had the same thought. Maybe that's why Buffy stayed in the grave, though...Osiris brought her back, but the communication was a little skewed...I don't recall seeing any of the Scoobies with a shovel...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- WW, 17:36:28 10/03/01 Wed
Sol wrote: . I'm guessing the writers said, "ooh, mercury retrograde, there's a nice phrase and it sounds like things go backwards!"
LOL! My fantasy writers' conference has Joss saying to the others, "So, we gotta have Willow do something evil, not just a little bit evil, but something soooooooo EVIL that it'll affect not just her destiny, but the destiny of everyone she knows, of the whole world, and the universe, and..." and an unnamed writer responding, "What? Like killing Bambi? [snort/smirk]"
Joss: "What, are you cra...hey, wait! That's IT!!"
LOL ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Rufus, 17:05:25 10/03/01 Wed
All Greek to me......I saw I got to be a kitty cat and that's about all I know about astrology.:):)
Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- change, 17:07:15 10/03/01 Wed
Spoilery discussion of the most recent Angel episode.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cordelia's visions have been getting more and more painful for the last several episodes. In TVT, the explaination was that the painful visions were caused by the Fez demon. He had somehow found a way to simulate the visions that the PTB have been sending to Cordelia. However, if that's the case then all of the visions in the previous 3 or 4 episodes would have to have come from Fez.
So, either Cordelia's painful vision problem has not really been resolved yet, or everything that happenned in the last few episodes was setup by Wolfram & Hart. Or, the writers setup something last year, and then decided to try to write it out of the story.
Another interesting thing is that Cordelia said in TVT that it had been an unusually long time since she received a vision from the PTB. Since the visions in TVT were not from the PTB, they have not communicated with Cordelia in a very long time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- Sheri, 17:15:07 10/03/01 Wed
No, I don't think it's inconsistant. I think it's normal for the visions to be extremely painful for Cordelia (didn't the demon guy in Pylea say that the visions are not intended for humans? That they're more than a human can physically handle.)
The big difference between Fez-visions and PTB-visions is that the Fez-visions had manifestations that effected Cordelia's body (verses the PTB-visions that make her brain feel like it's going to go ka-bluuey).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- change, 18:06:51 10/03/01 Wed
But the visions have been getting more painful for her over the last few episodes. That was one of the themes from the end of season 2. Cordelia's visions were getting so painful that she wanted to be rid of them. It was when the Groosalog told her that he was going to take them away from her that she reconsidered and decided that she would keep them even though they were getting worse. Her decision to keep them anyway was one of the turning points for her character in the story arc.
From her Point of View -- H, 17:30:07 10/03/01 Wed
Try something out. Those of you who taped the ep (which should be all of you :P ) Start it from when Buffy gets out of her grave. Try to watch the following scenes as if you knew as little as she did. It is very easy to believe that our Slayer is in fact in hell. After all, those biker demons were torn up enough to look like the ones Buffy saw the last time she was in hell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: From her Point of View -- VampRiley, 17:35:56 10/03/01 Wed
When I saw the the rerun of Anne on Sunday, many of those guys, like the one that told them that "You are no one.", looked a lot like those demons from The Scourge.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: From her Point of View -- Raven Eye, 19:45:17 10/03/01 Wed
It was kind of freaked out by that aspect of it as well.
It did seem like Hell. The town that she gave her life protecting was in ruins. I could see how confused Buffy was.
I was thinking (though I knew that this wasn't the case, but from her perspective with the limited information she had) what if this was hell? Was it really Dawn? What if Dawn had somehow died as well? (after Buffy made her sacifice, she of course had no idea what happened) Were they both in Hell? Or maybe it was a demon pretending to be Dawn?
I guess I have seen too many shows where "things aren't as they seem". Matrix and other shows like that. How was Buffy to know what was real, and what was illusion?
A good line Dawn could have used when Buffy asked "is this Hell?" would have been "only if you leave me again".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Yes, but... -- Solitude1056, 20:16:01 10/03/01 Wed
My point in a lower thread was that if Buffy had been in a different Hell, wouldn't she have asked, "am I still in Hell?" and not "is this Hell?"
And for that matter, if Willow's main preoccupation was with getting Buffy out of a hell, why not just do a ritual that sends her to the Summerlands, or where-ever? A "soul-releasing" spell, rather than a "bring-back-the-dead" spell...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Kvon, 20:29:07 10/03/01 Wed
From Buffy's point of view...waking up in a coffin, digging her way out of six feet of dirt, coming out alone in Sunnydale at night...I would have worried about having been turned into a vampire (which was a fear she had back in season one)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Raven Eye, 22:31:52 10/03/01 Wed
It didn't seem like Buffy "was" anywhere.
She just was dead. Now she is alive.
She didn't act like she was anywhere before "returning". To her it was like she jumped, then "woke up" in her grave.
When she asked "is this hell" I thought it was a very legimate question. Sunnydale ruled by Demons, it reminded me of the alternative universe that Anya made as a result of Cordy's wish in season three.
Is this Hell Buffy asks Dawn? It has been, but now Buffy's back, and that makes all the difference.
I am just waiting for the line - thought you were dead. I was, but I am feeling much better now.
Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Solitude1056, 22:43:28 10/03/01 Wed
Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
Uh, by putting their hands over their ears (or eyes?) and chanting, "la la la la magic clause!" ?
hehe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Rufus, 22:47:53 10/03/01 Wed
While humming to the magic clause remember the best way to hide something can be right in the open where no one expects it to be. Always works for me..:):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Sebastian, 09:34:38 10/04/01 Thu
I would have to rewatch the episode, but it seemed as if Buffy's grave was not in the cemetary, but in a secluded part of the woods.
Sunnydale seems to grow amazingly each season. A wharf/beach in Season 3. A university in Season 4. And a fairly large wooded area now.....
BTW...although I realize the symbolism of keeping the Glory Tower...did anyone else NOT think it strange that the city had not had a 100-foot rickety tower torn down? :-)
Just a thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Raven Eye, 18:07:31 10/04/01 Thu
Don't forget about the "Sunnydale Airport". Quite an airport for a suburb.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Sebastian, 09:35:39 10/04/01 Thu
I would have to rewatch the episode, but it seemed as if Buffy's grave was not in the cemetary, but in a secluded part of the woods.
Sunnydale seems to grow amazingly each season. A wharf/beach in Season 3. A university in Season 4. And a fairly large wooded area now.....
BTW...although I realize the symbolism of keeping the Glory Tower...did anyone else NOT think it strange that the city had not had a 100-foot rickety tower torn down? :-)
Just a thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Malandanza, 23:11:22 10/03/01 Wed
"Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
If there's any group of people in Sunnydale with sufficient knowledge of cemeteries to know where to bury someone so they'd arouse no suspicion, it would be the Scoobies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- celticross, 05:51:29 10/04/01 Thu
"Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did
they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?"
Xander drapes an arm around the BuffyBot's shoulders in response to RavenEye's question. "Uh, it was just a little early summer practical joke, right, Buffster?"
Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Sheri, 18:00:54 10/03/01 Wed
Skip's a really swell guy... so why didn't Angel explain what was going on, and ask if Skip might have a good suggestion. If Skip's will is enough to to keep Evil Guy in a prison of fire, maybe he could have made Fez's head go *pop*. It just seems really silly to me that Angel wouldn't even try... "oh, it's about a girl... long story." Uh, not that long. How about, "I'm being blackmailed by some really evil lawyers, and they say if I don't free Burning Guy, they'll hurt a girl who helps guide me with visions from the PTB... got any suggestions?" Really, not that difficult!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Raven Eye, 22:57:00 10/03/01 Wed
You don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the response.
Angel was "in the wrong" and he knew it. But he had to do the adult thing when his friend's life was at stake. He had to do what it takes when his family is at stake.
Sure he could have spent an hour or so explaining it to Skip. Skip might have even been sympathic to Angel's cause. Might have really empathized with him.
And conversely, Skip could have spent an hour or so explaining his position to Angel. Explaining how as much as he sympathized with Angel. As much as he would like to help Angel and his friend out, how unfair it was for Cordy to be put through so much pain, it was vital to keep the evil guy imprisoned. After all only real evil people were sent to Skip. If the guy escaped many others would suffer torment and death, and they have friends and family too.
Yes, they could have come to a great understanding, the two of them. Understanding of why they committed the acts they did. Why they felt they had to do what they had to do. Skip could seek understanding with Angel, understand his plight, sympathize with his cause.
And then they could fight. For you see, no matter how much Skip might sympathize with Angel, Skip has a job to do. To protect the world from an evil madman who would unleash untold horror upon the world if just given another chance.
See, understanding isn't always the solution to conflict. Sometimes understanding just makes the need for conflict all the more clear.
It was far better for Angel just to cut to the chase. After all time was an important factor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Raven Eye, 00:02:46 10/04/01 Thu
"Understanding" sometimes only goes so far.
Sometimes singlemindedness is the best course of action. Knowing what is important, that's the key, understanding is often a waste of time.
And what was important was that Angel's friend was in pain. She was being harmed, and that needed to be stopped. Perhaps that seems simplistic. Perhaps Angel and Wesley should have sat around debating the pro and cons. Researching into the history of the key, debate all the possible moral implications of helping Wolfram and Hart free this evil. But that wasn't the important thing. The important thing was that "It's Cordy" She is being harmed. She is our friend and she needs to be saved.
Sometimes situations call for "simple" solutions. Not "easy" solutions for I don't believe deciding was "easy" for Angel, as he knows that there will be consequences. But simple in the fact that Angel had really no other option. Angel's friend was being harmed. He needed to help her. HE NEEDED TO MAKE IT STOP. And he had to do whatever it took to insure that.
Living in an imperfect world means that adults have to sometimes use imperfect morality. Sometimes that means rejecting "what is right" and doing "what needs to be done." After all, it wasn't power that Angel was fighting for, not riches, but for the life of his friend. And yes, that does make all the difference.
I commend Angel for his singlemindedness.
Have nothing against reflection as it has its place. We can look into all the angles. The history of Demons. After all since they are the "old ones" perhaps they have a point since we have come to dominate a realm that once belonged to them. But as a human, I must be concerned for my survival, and that of my friends and family. Perhaps demons have a "right" to attempt to destroy us, I don't think so, but irregardless of whatever "right" demons think they have to do to us what they do, I want to survive. I want my friends and family to survive as well. That is why I root for Angel, that is why I root for Buffy. They fight for humanity. As a human, that is a good thing to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Humanitas, 04:11:43 10/04/01 Thu
I got the impression that the two of them actually did understand one another by the end of their conversation. In fact, I thought they understood each other perfectly. They are both Warriors for Good, at least in general, and they clearly have a lot of experiences in common, so they simply didn't need many words.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Earl Allison, 04:00:56 10/04/01 Thu
This entire scene smacked of the same situation with the Box of Gavroxx (sp?) and Willow.
There Wesley argued that keeping the Box from the Mayor was the "more" correct path. The greatest good for the greatest number, if you will. Here he seems to agree with Angel -- is it because he knows Cordelia better?
What's different here? Freeing this person is a potential risk -- and for what, ONE person? Granted, she's Angel's connection to TPTB, but does anyone seriously believe that, if Cordelia died (God forbid, but hypothetically), someone ELSE wouldn't be tapped to have visions? Lorne, maybe, or Wesley, or even Gunn? (Yes, I know, we don't KNOW that, but it's pretty likely ...)
I agree totally with Angel's decision. He was going to save Cordelia, and damn the consequences. But by NO stretch of the imagination was it the morally "correct" one.
He's sent a message to W&H, loud and clear; threaten my people sufficiently, and I'll do what you want.
Yes, Buffy does the same thing all the time, and maybe I'm coming off as very cold-blooded -- but in the real world, sacrifices are made.
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 06:36:08 10/04/01 Thu
It does make a difference that "its Cordy". When your friend is at stake, you do what it takes.
And, no, it isn't about her visions. That is not why Angel did what he did for her.
But I do think that Angel should have killed Lilah. And why didn't they at least attempt to fight the others after the interchange had happened.
I would have been a lot more confortable with the scene if after Fez was destroyed, the others had taken off, and Angel and crew at least attempted to persue them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Earl Allison, 08:17:35 10/04/01 Thu
So a friend's life is, in your words, more important?
Again, I am completely sympathetic to Angel's actions, and I also know that her visions weren't the reason. My point was:
In a purely moral sense, one life is worth as much as another -- in releasing this man, Angel may have doomed -- in fact, WILL have doomed, anyone we see this man kill. Had he refused, only Cordelia would have died. It's the good of the many over the good of the few. Now, taken to extremes, if could go bad -- Angel could justify killing Lilah to save anyone she might hurt in the future, true, but this was a tad more concrete -- and may get more so as we see what this man is capable of. In essence Angel has decided that Cordelia's life is more important than someone he doesn't know that this man may kill -- just as he decided that letting the W&H lawyers die was worth letting Dru and Darla loose in LA (he COULD have let them kill the lawyers and attacked them when they broke free from the wine cellar, but didn't -- making him responsible for anyone Dru or Darla kills from now on).
Maybe I wasn't clear.
Maybe I'm just wrong ...
Take it and run.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Sheri, 10:02:08 10/04/01 Thu
True, Cordelia is Angel's friend/surrogate sister... and true, that is reason enough for him to want to save her... but at what cost?
We have no idea who, or what, he has released from the fire prison. Can we really say that releasing this man for Wolfram and Hart is the right thing to do? Was there an alternative way to save Cordelia? Maybe, maybe not... but the fact that Angel never once stopped to think and know for sure that there was nothing else he could do.
Yes, asking Skip for his advice might take some time... although, not the hours and hours that he acted like it would take(and besides, they could always do that off camera... I realize that the show is only *so* long)... but would it have been so wrong to have had another ally who works for the PTB? I know that a lot of us are assuming that Skip would have given Angel a "sorry, no can do" no matter what Angel said, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. For Angel to assume that only he can come up with a solution to a difficult situation is simply wrong.
***One last question for us all to think about before I go (and definately before I get fired for goofing off at work)... how will the PTB react to Angel's actions? Somehow, I doubt that they'll be happy (they must have had the Burning Guy inprisoned for a very good reason), but will Angel be punished for acting impulsively?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 18:06:06 10/04/01 Thu
Whatever cost, whatever consequence, it was worth it.
It was Cordelia life at state. No cost is too high.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 18:03:11 10/04/01 Thu
A friend's life is more important. That is something that Star Trek and Buffy taught me.
The needs of the one outweight the needs of the many (Search for Spock).
It's all about love.
I do think that Angel should have killed Lilah and at least made the attempt to kill the guy he just released once Cordelia was out of danger.
bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- dan, 18:56:15 10/03/01 Wed
anybody else notice that willow was wearing all white in the faun scene? *Not* the usual funky colors that willow wears. and white of course symbolizes purity, innocence, etc. - everything that willow's giving up in this scene.
but isn't it interesting that it doesn't look like she got a drop of blood on her....
and also, with regards to her somewhat fancy outfit, what the hell? who DRESSES UP to go kill something? She looked like she was about to go to her Bat Mitzvah or something...
oh, wait, just came up with a possible answer to my own question. Willow dressed up like she's going to shabbat services because because to her, the faun scene *was* a religious scene.
i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
-d
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> dan, we're chatting now if you're interested... -- WW, 19:14:21 10/03/01 Wed
http://www.ivyweb.com/chat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Amber, 00:13:33 10/04/01 Thu
>but isn't it interesting that it doesn't look like she got >a drop of blood on her....
Actually if you look carefully there is blood all over her hands when she kills it, kind of in the lower corner of the screen. I'm guessing some of it spilled on the white dress, thus requiring the change of clothes when she meets the gang at the store.
I was also wondering if she was using a "good" spell to call the fawn to her so that she could use it for the "dark" magic that would bring Buffy back. The good spell might have required a sense of purity or peace, including the dress and crystal around her neck. Using a good spell to do something bad will probably have repercussions later.
Also I couldn't help thinking of Angel and Faith's talk way back in Season 3 after she accidently kills the Mayor's assistant. Angel says something about her having a taste for death now, and the power that it brings. (Not an exact quote, but the general idea) Could Willow have gotten the same "taste" from taking the life of the dear?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Rattletrap, 06:44:39 10/04/01 Thu
i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
There's also the way she avoided Xander's questioning when they were running through the woods. Everytime he asked a direct question about what she was doing, she would change the subject or give him a vague, politician-like non answer. This bodes ill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> fall fashion choices -- Rattletrap, 15:23:13 10/04/01 Thu
Just a thought: Willow's white dress may have been part of the ritual. We've seen special clothes for special ceremonies before.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> the colors, man, the colors -- Solitude1056, 21:40:52 10/04/01 Thu
Gotta go past just that point - Willow starts in white, and kills the fawn. She then appears wearing a red top. And for the ritual, she's wearing black. Maiden, Mother, Crone, anyone? The Maiden loses her innocence, becomes the Mother (vino de madre, hmm), and then transforms again with age in the Crone, who approaches death with open arms, and uses that nearness to wield her own power. This is purely going off on free thought, but I seem to recall a witch telling me, several years ago, that the Crone's power base is that of destruction - in order that creation (in the Maiden) may have room to begin. A form of exchange, ushered in by the Crone. Hm. Bargaining?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: the colors, man, the colors -- Rattletrap, 06:08:32 10/05/01 Fri
Add to that that in Christian iconagraphy, at least, white symbolizes purity, red sin, and black death. Hmm . . .
Red also sometimes symbolizes coming of age or loss of innocence, as in "Little Red Riding Hood" (referenced on BtVS a few times to date). That dovetails nicely with this season's theme: "Oh, Grow Up!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: the colors, man, the colors -- Isabel, 21:23:45 10/05/01 Fri
To take another spin on the meaning of colors, and if I am wrong please correct me, in Chinese symbology, white is the color of mourning, red is the color brides wear, and black is the color of knowledge.
I read this somewhere but I can't remember where. My memory could be playing tricks on me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> White and Red in Indian culture -- Rahael, 08:19:25 10/06/01 Sat
In Tamil Culture too, white is the colour of mourning and red the colour of celebration
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> red=happiness; white=death; true in most Asian cultures -- Solitude1056, 10:13:10 10/06/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Bonnie Heath, 11:41:22 10/05/01 Fri
>and also, with regards to her somewhat fancy outfit, what the hell? who DRESSES UP to go kill something? She looked like she was about to go to her Bat Mitzvah or something...
>oh, wait, just came up with a possible answer to my own question. Willow dressed up like she's going to shabbat services because because to her, the faun scene *was* a religious scene.
You did answer your own question. Willow's choice of attire was totally understandable when you look at what she did as a religious ceremony. If dressing up in robes is appropriate in a Christian church for the formality and to symbolise the importance of an occasion, why can't a Wiccan Priestess do the same for a ritual or ceremony?
>i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
I think that Willow didn't tell the others because it would be difficult for them to understand. I don't see it as sketchy at all. Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food? Where do you guys think meat in a grocery store comes from? A meat tree?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- T-rex, 12:01:05 10/05/01 Fri
>Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food?
I agree. Animals are slaughtered for more frivolous purposes every day, not only for food but for fur or leather as well. Even SMG sports sexy leather pants and jackets while on patrol. (At least it doesn't *look* like pleather) Yet sacrifice for religious reasons seems to strike a nerve with most of us. Doesn't make sense to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Talia, 14:13:45 10/05/01 Fri
>>>>I don't see it as sketchy at all. Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food? Where do you guys think meat in a grocery store comes from? A meat tree?<<<<<
A few points: first, there is the question of whether God(s)/ess(es) wants blood. Real Wicca (rarely seen on Buffy) is about not doing harm to living things. Christianity also (usually) regards God as a deity of love and creation, not bloody sacrifice. My personal faith says that shedding the blood of another, human or animal, cannot possibly bring spiritual good.
Second, this was not an ordinary deer. She called it "Come forward, blessed one." It's blood was "wine of the mother"--there are indications that she wasn't killing any old deer but some sort of avatar or chosen one of Mother Earth.
Third, the presentation of the scene indicates that Joss was trying to show us that this was not healthy religious behaviour. The peacefull, idyllic scene suddenly shattered by violence, the spattering of blood on Willow's hands, the expression on her face, and the fawn's struggling all suggest that something is deeply wrong with the ceremony.
Lastly, it should be noted for the record that I am a vegetarian, so I do not support the nonreligious slaughter of animals either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices and Willow's expression -- Solitude1056, 20:33:37 10/05/01 Fri
the presentation of the scene indicates that Joss was trying to show us that this was not healthy religious behaviour. The peacefull, idyllic scene suddenly shattered by violence, the spattering of blood on Willow's hands, the expression on her face, and the fawn's struggling all suggest that something is deeply wrong with the ceremony.
What struck me more, rewatching it, was that Willow said the ritual thanks, but her expression seemed... hmm. Like she was thinking, "okay, did anyone see that? I am alone, aren't I?" As if she was worried someone might come around the corner & say, "hey! you in the white! what are you doing??" I have seen sacrifices of various kinds, including symbolic ones, and in each one (for both religious and arreligious-but-magickal), the person or persons took a minute to set aside the next step and genuinely thank the sacrifical object. Sometimes this step of thanking is a ritualized pattern in itself, and sometimes it's merely a momentary pause on the part of the celebrant. But you can see the shift in their face, or hear the let-out-breath, as they pause to sincerely give thanks. Willow didn't seem to do that. She was continuing to say the words by rote, but her eyes and her face were practically screaming, "okay, let's get this last part done and get the hell outta dodge."
I think Joss presented the scene to be as jarring as possible, but I didn't pick up a value judgement on the act itself from an observer's POV. The only value judgement I got was from Willow herself - her expression while thanking, and then later her hedginess about explaining where she'd been and what she'd gotten. It wasn't just that Tara obviously didn't know, or the comments about black market. It was the fact that when Xander asked, she told him the latin name - which, one would think, Xander wouldn't be able to translate, and one would also think she'd know that this answer is less than helpful. When he then asks again, she translates but doesn't explain. If the latin phrase is less than helpful, the translation - "wine of the mother" - is no more helpful. Her insistence in refusing to be clear indicated to me that she didn't want them to know, much as she was suspicious and guarded at the end of the ritual itself. So she herself has put a value judgement on it, for whatever reason. What that specifically is - and whether it's a one-time occurance just for the all-too-important resurrection ritual - remains to be seen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Sebastian, 11:11:07 10/04/01 Thu
I'm not sure if this means anything...but did anyone else notice that while Bufy's psychological/social state was (understandably) completely out of whack...her fighting skills were still top notch.
I would have expected her fighting skills to be as impaired as her regular senses - but if anything - her fighting skills were stellar.
I would have expected some hesitancy...but she kicked ass if she had not just dug herself out of her own grave.
Do you think there is something deeper - or am I reading too much into this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- T-rex, 11:55:21 10/04/01 Thu
I think Buffy's fighting skills have become instinctive for her over the years. It was the primitive slayer kicking in without hesitation. It's probably the only part of her personality that hasn't been traumatized.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- WW, 13:59:46 10/04/01 Thu
I think the Spoilerslayer site said that Buffy would not be coming back with more skills than she had before, but she sure seemed stronger to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- H, 14:47:29 10/04/01 Thu
I don't think she was stronger so much as without the personality working she was more focused. The past has shown that a focused Buffy always kicks ass harder than a Buffy that's sidetracked.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Dedalus, 15:03:00 10/04/01 Thu
Buffy should come back with more powers. I want more powers. She deserves something. Otherwise, it just looks like they brought her back to bring her back. There has to be a bigger purpose.
Speaking of demon bikers, those guys were SCARY! Those were some of the nasiest looking dudes since the Gentlemen. Am I alone in thinking this?
I wanted to take more pleasure in seeing them being beaten up, but I was still reeling from post-grave Buffy trauma. And as someone pointed out, a Spike vs. Razor fight would have been awesome. Still, I loved his flying kick that dismounted the demon on the bike. That was exxccccellent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Agreed! Thought Razor's top henchman was cooler than R himself, actually -- mm, 15:18:17 10/04/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Did we get a new choreographer this season? -- Humanitas, 17:24:04 10/04/01 Thu
The fights on both shows are much more kung-fu than I remember them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> And they're filming them differently, too -- Solitude1056, 18:49:29 10/04/01 Thu
The editing on AtS seemed awfully, well, choppy. The fighting itself was distinctively different than the last two seasons, but it was the editing that got to me. It seemed someone went a little crazy with the jump-shot editing, sort of like a toned-down version of what they do for act-switches on AtS. And the fighting on BtVS seemed more like... uh, well, it reminded me of (don't shoot me for this) that bionic woman show. Strange. Just somehow seemed different from last season, but not nearly as dramatically as AtS' difference.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And they're filming them differently, too -- Rattletrap, 05:58:07 10/05/01 Fri
Actually, I think the shots on AtS have gotten longer since last year, and the stunt work better. Last year you almost never saw someone actually land a punch.
*sniff* Jeff Pruitt, where are you now *sniff* We are in desperate need of your genius.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Andy, 05:47:41 10/05/01 Fri
"Buffy should come back with more powers. I want more powers. She deserves something.
Otherwise, it just looks like they brought her back to bring her back. There has to be a bigger
purpose."
Yeah, I liked the episode but I when I read Joss's statements of "no new powers" I couldn't help thinking he was passing up a golden opportunity and that feeling nagged at the back of my head while I was watching the show. They could have done something really eye-poppingly cool, I think, but instead it feels like it's all going to be character stuff. Character stuff is cool but I want stuff that's neato also :)
"Speaking of demon bikers, those guys were SCARY! Those were some of the nasiest looking
dudes since the Gentlemen. Am I alone in thinking this?"
I thought they were pretty cool. I've seen a lot of people make Freddy Krueger comparisons, but the way Razor's hands operated reminded a tiny bit of Joe Lansdale's God of the Razor.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: I took some pleasure in seeing Spike fell that Demon too. -- bible belt, 11:47:18 10/05/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Sheri, 21:39:01 10/04/01 Thu
Hmm, when we last saw Buffy, she was kicking some serious Hell God butt... so I don't think she has gotten any stronger since then (those biker demons were mean and nasty, but probably not as strong as Glory).
So why is it that I keep asking myself, "how the heck is she doing that??"?
Well, I could be wrong, but I think they finally managed to find a stunt double who is just as itsy bitsy as SMG herself. So maybe it's seeing a tiny person beating up demons that's throwing us all off? When they had the big hulking stunt double last season, it was much easier to accept that Buffy could send a big fat vampire flying... but now that we're seeing someone much smaller fighting, she seems much stronger even though the fight sequences may or may not have changed.
Maybe it's just me, but did any body else feel like Buffy was sending the demons flying not with her punches, but with a force of some kind? Yes, I know that we've been told that she won't have any new skills... but what if this isn't new? She may be tapping into the powers of the original Slayer that are already within her. (I think that's a reasonable enough loophole to fake us all out when we read the spoilers).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- bible belt, 12:00:05 10/05/01 Fri
I think it's plausable she has some yet untapped slayer powers. It has appeared to me that she could send Demoms flying with some kind of supernatural force in her kicks in previous episodes as well.
Has any one noticed that Buffy runs flat footed? Not the most athletic way to do it. I don't have a problem with it, in fact I like the fact that she doesn't have to be buff to be Buffy. Just wondering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Sarah DOES have some new stunt doubles (NT) -- Traveler, 00:56:02 10/06/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- rowan, 06:29:06 10/05/01 Fri
My impression was that we were seeing a primal Buffy with her personality stripped away. Her memory and the things that truly make her Buffy (relationships to others, etc.) were returning slowly as she reconnected. But the Slayer part of her was strong. Her eyes, hearing, and voice were all rusty with disuse, but I guess she had residual memory programmed into her bones and muscle, judging by her great fighting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- celticross, 07:03:39 10/05/01 Fri
"My impression was that we were seeing a primal Buffy with her personality stripped away. Her memory and the things
that truly make her Buffy (relationships to others, etc.) were returning slowly as she reconnected. But the Slayer part
of her was strong. Her eyes, hearing, and voice were all rusty with disuse, but I guess she had residual memory
programmed into her bones and muscle, judging by her great fighting."
It's the survival instinct, fight or flight. (which is a bit ironic, considering we've been discussing that Buffy doesn't seem to really want to be alive right now) It doesn't matter if a creature has reason or not, when faced with something that can hurt it, it will either run or fight. Buffy's a Slayer. It's her nature to fight rather than run.
Oooo! Thought! She's wandering around a Sunnydale that she thinks is hell. Maybe she fights because that's something she can control. If it hell, she's not gonna do the eternal torment thing lightly.
Or I could be wrong. *shrugs* Who knows?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I think so, too -- Cactus Watcher, 08:27:32 10/05/01 Fri
It harkens back to the scene where she was blindfolded and showing off her fighting skills for Quentin Travers.
Willow's Dark path -- cknight, 19:02:46 10/03/01 Wed
I think tara knows more than she's showing in terms of Willow's descent into darkness. Tara is a lot tougher than she shows the group, just like Willow use to have that shyness that kept her from fully realizing her potential Tara is travelling the same road. In many ways tara is ahead of Willow in terms of responsabilty, but since she's way behind Willow in the social department she is allowing herself to be blinded by Willow. The same way Willow threw Xander off the scent of the darkness she's heading toward, Willow also knows Tara has that fear that she will leave her. It's something Willow doesn't have to act on, It's already working it's way around Tara's head over and over because of Tara's insecurities. I think at some point this season Tara won't be able to look the other way while Willow uses the power of darkness. Willow doesn't really understand the concept of paying a price for all the power she's gaining. I feel by the end of the season she will. I think that's really going to be the theme of the season, growing up and realizing everything costs something, even love. I've got a bad feeling that Tara won't survive this season, maybe it'll be giving her life to bring Willow back to her senses (and from darkness) or Willow actually doing something to bring about her demise(I hope not).
On a side note when are they going to let Spike kick some ass?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Willow's Dark path -- MPN, 20:10:14 10/03/01 Wed
I share cknight's concern about something happening to Tara this season. One reason for this, and I know this is going to sound pathetic, is the fact that Amber Benson hasn't gotten a themesong credit. Granted this is a really lame excuse, especially considering the fact that both Seth Green and Marc Blucas had themesong credits yet they departed from the series abruptly. Still, she's been on the show for almost two years now, and I just think it seems rather odd. Anyway, I have a funny feeling that if somebody isn't going to make it on to Season 7, it's going to be Tara, which would be a real shame in my opinion. Tara is a character who I had mixed feelings about originally but who I have come to view as one of my favorites on the show. The idea of Willow having something to do with Tara's demise is just a little too depressing for me to contemplate, but it is definitely not impossible. Is it just me or do things seem even more anguished than usual in the Buffyverse? Still, as always, I will trust in the minds behind the series to do what they know will be right for the show. As for cknight's second point on Spike, I was quite angered that Spike didn't get the chance to rumble with Razor in the season premiere, as that could have been one hell of a fight sequence IMHO. Still, fight scenes or no fight scenes, JM was tremendous as always, and his ability to convey Spike's feelings of guilt and pain was quite an inspiration to yours truly who just recently got cast in a play here at school. I think when I'm rehearsing I'll ask myself WWJMD? "What would James Marsters do?" Stay well all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Tara -- Cactus Watcher, 20:13:32 10/03/01 Wed
Perhaps Amber just has a lousy agent. ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Willow's Dark path -- Rattletrap, 06:47:41 10/04/01 Thu
I've had that same suspicion MPN. Most of the cast members became series regulars after a year or so recurring. Tara's been on for nearly two but hasn't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Willow's Dark path -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 13:08:40 10/04/01 Thu
Perhaps this is a stretch (and I've never been right before) but:
if Whedon & Co. have one great villain per season --
perhaps this season, if Willow continues on this path --
it's Willow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Not already, though. -- Solitude1056, 21:13:14 10/04/01 Thu
The Jossian style is to give us a "little bad" decoy for the first 11 episodes, and then replace it/resolve it/kill it, and we end up with a "big bad" for the second 11 episodes. Last season was an anomaly, since Glory was the major bad through the whole season. But if Willow is truly headed in the direction we're guessing at, then she'd be sitting in the little bad spot. That means she either wises up by episode 6:11, or... wait a minute.
I need to take a minute. I think I just had a real thought. Will post on another Willow-related thread, since it deals with that one.
For those of you interested-tonight's chat transcript. -- A8, 20:01:53 10/03/01 Wed
Here is a large excerpt from our Wednesday, October 3, 2001 chat from 5:45-7:56 pm PST. The players: mm, WW, VhD, Brian (aka Birddog), LS, CW, Kerri, A8.
[mm] interesting they're keeping it hush hush
[vhD] Hadn't heard that
[CactusWatcher] I think X is insecure as well
[Birddog] Insecure about the secret and about running the store
[Wisewoman] It was a kinda step back for her character, I thought.
[vhD] I'm with Anya, Xander should've tell the others sooner
[mm] was pleased Tara got to kick ass, for once
[LadyStarlight] You're right, vhD
[Birddog] Are they setting up for some bad between her and Xander?
[vhD] Could be
[CactusWatcher] I thought they would
[LadyStarlight] Probably (November sweeps?)
[Wisewoman] I dunno, some traditional types do hold off on
- engagements and weddings when there's been a death in the family...
[vhD] Yeah, but 3 months?
[Birddog] Didn't Tara seem more at home last night? Like more part
- of the gang
[Wisewoman] Don't want the two things so closely associated in the
- minds of the family and friends.
A8> Maybe she was right when she said he was proposing to her
- because he thought they were going to die in 'The Gift.'
[mm] Tara was great. Specially the 'grrr, arrrgh' bit
[LadyStarlight] that was cool
[Wisewoman] Tara was great last night. Very feisty. Small thing and
- very catty, but why do they always have her ear sticking out of her
- hair?
[vhD] I don't remember that quote
[CactusWatcher] Yeah
[vhD] that's just how she wears it
[Wisewoman] With the finger puppet in the airport
[vhD] I'll have to rewatch it nd look
[CactusWatcher] puppet was nice touch
[Birddog] Seems like Joss is throwing in bits of classic movies.
- When I saw the demon bikers, I thought of the Wild One with Marlan
- Brando
A8> Not in last night's ep, but why she initially turned him down
- in 'Gift.'
[Wisewoman] Right, when he proposed and she slapped his face.
A8> Exactly.
[LadyStarlight] Might've been a small, slimy part of it
[Wisewoman] LadyS, you lost me there...
A8> Under duress, marriage sounded great, but now maybe cold feet?
[CactusWatcher] cold feet maybe
[LadyStarlight] Oops, should've said "part of him talking". Is
- that better?
[Birddog] On whose part?
[Wisewoman] Okay, gotcha.
[LadyStarlight] Not that Xander's slimy
[Wisewoman] He was getting pretty cold feet over the resurrection
- as well.
>> CactusWatcher has left channel #ivyWEB
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
A8> Maybe X had second thoughts when he thought there was a
- possibility of B's return.
[Wisewoman] No he hasn't
[Wisewoman] Sorry, that was about CW leaving.
[LadyStarlight] I think everyone was having second thoughts
[vhD] was it just me, or was Will tha only one who really wanted
- Buffy back?
[Birddog] I wonder if Anya is the one getting cold feet, and she
- wants a public announcement to make her decision for her
[Wisewoman] I thought Tara was pretty solid behind Willow on this
- one.
[Wisewoman] Of course, she didn't know about Bambi...
A8> I think of all of them she felt the closest to her, maybe even
- closer than Giles?
[vhD] I think she was aginst it
[vhD] wnt to know something?
[LadyStarlight] Tara was behind Willow, but Willow wasn't honest
- with her...big repercussions later?
[vhD] I've never seen Bambi
[Wisewoman] You got it.
[LadyStarlight] sure
[Birddog] The Bambi scene was a shocker among many shocker's last
- night
[vhD] And I don't want to
A8> How about 'Bambi v. Godzilla'?
[vhD] Seen it
[Wisewoman] But have you ever seen Godzilla vs Bambi?
[LadyStarlight] I rented it for my oldest a couple years ago, still
- bawled
[CW] There will be something between W and Tara
[Wisewoman] Oh, well that's just as good...not.
A8> Ah, the rematch
[Birddog] Finally saw B VS G several years ago. Delightful
>> mundus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Bambi's mom gets killed by evil hunters.
[LadyStarlight] And so...short
[mundus] good grief, two of me again
[vhD] Anyone know of a site I can download BvsG from?
[Birddog] Man is the enemy
[Wisewoman] One for everyone!
A8> mm has many masks in this dark universe.
[LadyStarlight] Dibs, I call dibs
[vhD] why is mm on twice?
[Birddog] Just like in Dean Koontz's books - Man is the biggest
- monster
[Wisewoman] O god, I'm laughing too hard to type..
[mundus] got booted, got back, i dunno
[LadyStarlight] the chat room doesn't like him
[mundus] chewing me up and spittin me out
[CW] Doesn't like me either
[Wisewoman] Maybe it's a GIRL's chat room...lol
[vhD] I don't have any problwms
>> mm has left channel #ivyWEB
[vhD] and I 'm not a girl
A8> okay which mm just left? mm or mm?
[mundus] wasn't that originally a theory? that the hellverse would
- spit buffy back?
[vhD] mm
[CW] mundus still here?
[LadyStarlight] So, mm, are you scared yet?
[mundus] not me, the other one!
A8> mm bot?
[LadyStarlight] mmmbop
[LadyStarlight] Sorry, so sorry, couldn't resist
[mundus] mundusbot. maybe i need to get drunk. got any pointers,
- vhD?
[CW] mm's brother the KEY!
[Wisewoman] Okay, who was doing botroll on the board, today?
A8> Yeah what about that vamp's Hanson t-shirt last night
[Birddog] Sigh, end of the buffy bot for sure
[Wisewoman] And she was so...perky.
[LadyStarlight] That's one word for it
[CW] perky and geeky
[Wisewoman] C'mon guys, she was trying...
[LadyStarlight] Very trying
[vhD] Bad progaming by Willow
[Birddog] And the scene btween torn up Buffybot and Dawn was
- touching
[vhD] And Warren
[CW] I like her, she's just ... Robo-Buffy
[Wisewoman] Lol. Loved Xander's manwitch line.
[vhD] Maybe they can get Warren to fix the robot
A8> Or House of chicks, guy with a tool line?
[CW] Or Warren will make a new one
[Wisewoman] And every Wiccan in the world was screaming, NO, it's
- NOT a warlock!!
[mundus] is Buffybot gonna stay at the end of the opening credits,
- ya think?
[Wisewoman] He made with the funnies, for sure.
[Birddog] Isn't warren suppose to be showing up this season as part
- of a unholy three?
[LadyStarlight] That's the rumor
A8> Yeah I was thinking it was the Jossverse way of distancing
- itself from real Wicca using warlock like that.
[Wisewoman] Spoiler trollop that I am, I've seen a screen cap of
- the Troika.
[Wisewoman] The third guy as really weird hair.
[Birddog] Oh, cool word -
[LadyStarlight] That is our official title, no?
[vhD] huh?
[CW] They voted
[Wisewoman] No longer ho's. We're trollops now.
[mundus] the trolls will be pleased to have trollops
[Birddog] Original Troika was Lennin, Tolsty, and Stalin, I hink -
- not too up on my Russian history
[Wisewoman] Trollops wollop trolls.
A8> Trollops is too much like trolls though, lingustically speaking
- that is.
[vhD] Isn't a troika a type of sled?
[CW] Actually in Russian Troika is three of anything
[Birddog] Maybe, I just rambling on here
[LadyStarlight] But we're so much more classy than the trolls
[vhD] btw, it was Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky
[mundus] Stalin used to doctor photos of him and those guys, didn't
- he?
[vhD] why are they speaking russian anyway
[Birddog] Trollop = Sisters of the Scarlet Slayerhood
[Wisewoman] Ooooh, good one Brian.
[LadyStarlight] We'll make you an honorary Trollop
[Wisewoman] Can I wear a scarlet letter T on my forehead?
[CW] Scarlet Sisters?
A8> Babylon Sisters shake it!
[LadyStarlight] my thought too, A8
A8> Sorry, big SD fan here.
[vhD] Babylon?
A8> So fine, so young--tell me I'm the only one.
[mundus] gotta run. maybe i'll sign on a little later. well, one of
- me.
[LadyStarlight] bye mundus
[Wisewoman] Bye, bye mm
[Birddog] Bye
A8> Hasta M
>> mundus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] BRB
[vhD] Is this chat a weekly thing?
[Birddog] BRB?
[vhD] or are there people here every night?
[LadyStarlight] A8, which song is that from? (Hey Nineteen?)
[Birddog] I hope so
[CW] Was Spike's hair blond instead of white?
A8> Babylon Sisters
[LadyStarlight] Right, thanks
[vhD] Yeah, Spike changed his hair
[LadyStarlight] The no gel look works
[vhD] I think that might be how JM really wears it
[Birddog] Just like Buffy
[CW] Interesting that Buffy's hair changed in the grave
[LadyStarlight] Microbe action?
A8> My friends say no don't go for that cotton candy--son, you're
- playing with fire. Good message for Willow, hey?
[vhD] She was dead, all; the peroxide wore away
[Birddog] It was the Willow influence
>> Wisewoman has left channel #ivyWEB
>> Wisewoman has joined channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] Maybe being in the dark for 3 months
A8> The kid will live and learn as he watches his bridges burn from
- the point of no return.
[Wisewoman] Did I get the boot, there.
[CW] Maybe that's why Buffy was so confused. Not blonde must be
- hell!
[Birddog] Ouch! the nastiness of machines
A8> I guess this board no longer favors the females.
[Wisewoman] Buffy's hair was realistic in that it apparently
- continues to grow after death.
[CW] Yes
[Birddog] But I doubt the color would change
es
[Birddog] Hey, who buried Buffy if the school thinks she's still
- alive. Did the Scoobies just put her in the ground?
[LadyStarlight] It just looks like it's grown bc your scalp shrinks
[CW] Finger nails grow. Not hair?
[Wisewoman] They buried her out in the woods somewhere hidden.
[LadyStarlight] Nails neither
[vhD] I guess the Scoobies buries her
[vhD] But not in a graveyard
A8> Ooh, an SMG/Buffy question just on jeopardy.
[Wisewoman] What was it?
[LadyStarlight] Did you get it right?
[Birddog] Then she wasn't embalmed which would explain the "rotten"
- look
A8> Of course. It was one of those obvious ones.
[CW] Must have been a tad suspicous when they asked for a headstone
- to go.
[vhD] How did they get a cofffin and headstone?
[Wisewoman] I would have said Xander built the coffin, but not with
- the satin lining and all...
[Wisewoman] Magic Clause
[CW] You can buy a coffin
[Birddog] giles bought the coffin, spike stole the stone, Xander
- craved it, and Dawn thought up the words
[LadyStarlight] Funeral homes in Sdale probably don't ask too many
- questions
[Wisewoman] Lol, right on, LadyS
[Birddog] And aren't they profitable!
A8> Could have bought all the funeral gear on e-bay like they did
- with the urn and backstreet boys lunchbox
>> CW has left channel #ivyWEB
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] It's like having the hiccups...
A8> Kinda like the hokey poley chatting here huh CW?
[LadyStarlight] but not as funny
[CW] Only wosre
[CW] worse?
>> Rufus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] I wann see the hokey poley!
[LadyStarlight] hi rufus
[CW] hi rufus
[Rufus] Hi there
A8> I meant hokey pokey, but I kind of like hokey poley better!
[Wisewoman] Not you,Rufus, Welcome!
[Birddog] Hi, Rufus
[LadyStarlight] WW, that's an Annoying One thing
A8> Holey poley with whips and Cat O'Nine tails!
[Rufus] I'm glad to here there will be no Hokey Pokey for me
[Birddog] Back to bondage - must be fun!
[Wisewoman] I'm choking, aaargh, stop, don't make
- me,....laugh...gasp
[Rufus] So, what have I missed?
[CW] Just try to stay on line. I keep getting dumped.
[LadyStarlight] Yeah, she's Sick Woman, be nice
[Rufus] Besides bondage
[Wisewoman] Rufus, what did you think of Buffy's funeral attire?
A8> I've been cutting and pasting this chat, does anyone want me to
- post what I got on the board later?
[vhD] I liked the dress
[Wisewoman] Yeah, do that 8.
[Birddog] there's always time for bondage, in a fun way of course
[Rufus] I couldn't see it that well
[Wisewoman] We have no secrets here.
[Rufus] I do
[Wisewoman] Black dress and really high heels.
[vhD] what is thes, a Buffy chat or an S&M chat?
[Rufus] All the better to fight in
[LadyStarlight] Tell us Rufus
[Birddog] Who picked that outfit?
A8> Bondage is just another word for hold me tight.
[Rufus] Rufus never tells
[LadyStarlight] vhD, it goes either way around here
>> dan has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] That's my point...don't think it would have been either
- Dawn or Willow...Giles, maybe?
[LadyStarlight] hi, dan
[dan] hey y'all.
[Wisewoman] Hi Dan
[Birddog] HI dan
[CW] The dress came free with the headstone
[LadyStarlight] lol
[dan] are y'all talking about buffy's dress?
>> Kerri has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] yep, and the heels.
[vhD] why is dan after ww on the list?
[Kerri] hey
[LadyStarlight] welcome back, Kerri
[dan] the one that she would have never, ever bought in a million
- years?
A8> I once say graffiti that said "Free Patty Hearst" and then
- someone tagged on after it "with ever 10 gallons of gas."
[Wisewoman] small "d"?
[Rufus] Small is just a word
[Birddog] Buffy died in white, and comes back in black - Hmmmm
[dan] yeah!
[Wisewoman] Did anyone get the e-mail about the printer with the
- pen stuck in it?
[vhD] no
[Rufus] Pardon?
[Birddog] nope
[dan] no.
[LadyStarlight] Exlain, Ww
[LadyStarlight] Er, explain
[Wisewoman] Someone put a note on it saying...:DON'T TOUCH. PEN IS
- STUCK.
[vhD] LS took typing lessons from me
vhD] LS took typing lessons from me
[CW] We all took typing together
[LadyStarlight] And I'll pay you for them later
[Rufus] Uh huh
[Wisewoman] Well, it looks better in printing.
[dan] to bring up clothes again, did anyone notice willow's outfit
- during the fawn scene?
[Wisewoman] Virginal white.
[dan] all white and sabbath servicey.
[Birddog] Typing - best course I took in high school
[LadyStarlight] white, not my first choice for animal slaughter
[vhD] It's bee talkeed about
A8> Sounds like the SNL Jeopardy parody. The Penis Mightier
[dan] exactly. who dresses up to kill something?
[Birddog] Willow goes from white to red
[Wisewoman] LOL.
[CW] Anybody know what she was saying yet?
[dan] hebrew stuff.
[Wisewoman] Willow, or me?
[dan] willow.
[CW] Willow
[LadyStarlight] We're never sure, WW
[Rufus] That's a good enough translation for me
[Wisewoman] We need anom.
[CW] Adonai is Lord
[LadyStarlight] If I could find the TV remote, I could CC it
[Wisewoman] Or, CW, obviously.
[Wisewoman] Did you check the kid's beds?
W] You now know half of my Hebrew.
[Rufus] I take it we are talking remote and beds here?
[Wisewoman] Shalom.
[Wisewoman] Yep.
[LadyStarlight] Actually, the smallest hid the satellite remote in
- the fridge once
[LadyStarlight] We didn't find it for four days
[Wisewoman] Aaaaargh!
[LadyStarlight] There was much cursing
[Rufus] Put a beeper on the darn thing
[LadyStarlight] The kid
[dan] or a page function.
[dan] er, on the remote.
[Wisewoman] Kids have self-beepers.
[Rufus] The remote would do
[Wisewoman] They come standard.
[LadyStarlight] It's peaceful when it's lost, though
[dan] how stone age!
[LadyStarlight] And the volume is always on loud
[CW] Be like Anya trade, the kid in for cash.
[Rufus] Yes, men and kids are deaf
[dan] yes, yes!
A8> What?
[LadyStarlight] People frown on that for some reason
[dan] kid trading?
[Rufus] Anya and the game of Life
[LadyStarlight] Yeah, like it's a bad thing
[Rufus] LOL
[CW] kids frown on it too
[dan] who needs more blue and pink pegs anyway?
A8> Ooh I just had Chitty Chitty Bang Bang flashbacks.
[LadyStarlight] Is there a cure for that?
[Rufus] This conversation will make for a great transcript
[dan] Chitty Chitty Bang Bang: our generation's Nam.
[LadyStarlight] Never seen it
[vhD] who's generation?
[Wisewoman] I think it's called Immodium.
[vhD] My generation's Nam will be Afghanistan
[CW] The lost generation!
[Wisewoman] The cure, I mean.
[LadyStarlight] Hey, I'm not a baby boomer, or Gen X? What am I
[dan] i think we need an abbreviation for: Too many threads!
[Wisewoman] You're in between, LadyS?
[Birddog] I'm a war baby
[Wisewoman] I'm a boomer.
[Rufus] Same here
[LadyStarlight] Think so, last time I checked
[CW] boomer, too
[dan] I'm between Generation X and Y.
[dan] Call me X prime, or x'
[LadyStarlight] Boomers were from 1941-2 to 1965
[Birddog] Boomers are '46 to 66, I think
[Wisewoman] After the boomers came "Love Child" Lol.
[Rufus] We'll give you a note excusing you for that dan
[CW] Brian's right
[LadyStarlight] I concede the point
[dan] ageism, rufus! ;->
[Birddog] War babies to 1946
[Rufus] Smile
[Rufus] Whoever is snake talkin
[Wisewoman] Snakes symbolize wisdom and regeneration.
[Birddog] symbol of the snake devouring its tail some kind of world
- symbol
[Wisewoman] Ouroboros
[dan] ouroborous.
[Wisewoman] great minds type alike
[dan] jinx!
A8> I know they can be associated with the Moon in terms of death
- and rebirth.
A8> I learned that from reading Campbell.
[Wisewoman] Where are you, Dedalus?
[Birddog] Man. his last essay rocked - lots of food for thought
>> Rufus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Bet she got bumped.
>> dan has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] him too
[Wisewoman] OMG they're all bumping
[CW] Bumped again
[Birddog] who's next?
[LadyStarlight] Not me
[Wisewoman] This is like anAgatha Christie mystery
[Birddog] bumping in the night
A8> And they shed their skin, like the Moon sheds its shadow and a
- woman sheds her menstual lining (?)
[LadyStarlight] 10 Little Chatters
>> dan has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] You got it, A8
>> Rufus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[dan] my net connection booted me off.
[Wisewoman] That's the regenerative thing.
A8> Although my misspelling of menstrual makes me sound like a
- yokel.
>> Rufus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Ah, just Annoying.
[Wisewoman] Rufus has bumped again!
[Birddog] poor rufus
[LadyStarlight] Rufus doesn't love us anymore
A8> Rufus come in, Rufus go out
[dan] is there a limit on chatters?
[Wisewoman] Don't think so.
[Wisewoman] Anybody ever try the "private chat" function?
>> CW has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] What does it do?
A8> I think it may have to do with your connection-when I was
- booted I was also disconnected from the Net.
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
[dan] it's the Chat-Go-Round!
[Wisewoman] Is it the dial-up people who are getting booted?
A8> I'm dial-up
[Birddog] here today, chat tomorrow
[LadyStarlight] I'm dial-up, I think
[dan] people come on, people bumped off, people come on, people
- bumped off!
[CW] That's it ! spell bad and get booted
[CW] I'm Dsl
[LadyStarlight] But no pressure
[Wisewoman] Is that like dyslexic?
[dan] i'm DSL, and I got booted.
A8> Guilty as charged, but still here for now.
[CW] I'm also dyslexic!
A8> Spell bad, tree good!
[LadyStarlight] Evil thoughts, maybe?
[Birddog] Hey is Keeri still with us?
A8> Or good thoughts.
[Wisewoman] None of us would still behere.
[dan] like choclatey spike?
[Wisewoman] I thought Kerri said goodnight?
[Wisewoman] Oh, dan, what you said!
[LadyStarlight] Ooh, chocolate Spike....
CW] Ghost of Kerri is here
[Wisewoman] Several of us will have to leave for a minut or two...
[Birddog] Name is still on my list - just curious
[LadyStarlight] Don't make me drool on my keyboard
[dan] *moment of awed silence*
[Kerri] sorry guys-im here-just keep stepping away
[Birddog] remember - dark chocolate Spike
[LadyStarlight] oooh,...must stop thinking now
[CW] I prefer milk chocolate Spike
[dan] speaking, obliquely, of testosterone and xy chromosomes, do
- we think the show is going to balance out its genders a little
- more?
[Birddog] Xander needs a guy friend
[Wisewoman] Dunno, I was thinking Xander's line was leading up to a
- bonding with Spike.
A8> How about "Death by Chocolate"? Dark, white and milk chocolate
- with truffle center?
[LadyStarlight] Well, Angel is pretty testosterone laden
[CW] I think making X more mature helps
[LadyStarlight] A8, go sit in the corner. Can't afford to replace
- keyboard right now
A8> Am in corner--shouting instructions to my keyboard-and it is
- obeying--spooky!
[dan] AtS is really testosterone laden. a little too macho for my
- taste sometimes.
[Kerri] well i need to go-ive got work to do. tata. :)
[Wisewoman] What BtVS needs is a Host.
LadyStarlight] At least *someboady* obeys me, bwahahaha
[dan] bye, kerri.
[CW] bye
[Birddog] Bye Kerri
>> Kerri has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] somebody, sorry
[Birddog] And then there were 5
[dan] WW, what do you mean by that Host comment?
[Wisewoman] I just love the Host, and I think they need an equally
- biting and witty character
[Wisewoman] Anya let me down last night.
[dan] She did.
[LadyStarlight] Spike isn't biting and witty enought for you
[dan] Tara took her coolness.
[dan] not too much spikeage last night, really.
[CW] Naughty Tara
[LadyStarlight] Okay, A8, you can come out now
[Birddog] They just left Spike out of the loop even to the end of
- the show
[dan] that's ok.
A8> Sorry, all this cutting and pasting--can't chew gum and talk
- simultaneously.
[LadyStarlight] That was deliberate, I thought
[dan] i know there'll be more than enough spike this season.
[dan] even for all of our depraved purposes. ;-.
[dan] oops, i menat ;->
[dan] oops, i meant "meant."
[Birddog] Final comment before I go to bed - Loved the closeness of
- Tara and Willow - lots of touch, hugging, kissing - very natural
- and it seemed just right
[Wisewoman] Gotta go, spouse demanding quality time, lol.
[dan] yes, very much so. they seem so solid.
[dan] see ya, WW.
A8> Actually, my depraved purposes would wish for more Drusilla or
- some Faith.
[LadyStarlight] bye you two
[Wisewoman] See ya.
[dan] see ya, birddog.
A8> Bye ww
[Birddog] NIght all
>> Wisewoman has left channel #ivyWEB
>> Birddog has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] And now there are four
[CW] for now
[dan] I would like to see some more Drusilla and Faith myself.
[LadyStarlight] True
[dan] But Eliza's doing so much movie work...
[CW] Faith especially
[LadyStarlight] I like Drusilla, in a creepy kind of way
A8> I'm gonna go in a couple to watch Enterprise (yeah-I'm a bit of
- a nerd), but the transcript of much of this will be on the board in
- a few.
[LadyStarlight] Thinking about working her into a new story
[dan] angels and ministers of grace defend us.
A8> I love Faith.
[dan] me, too.
[CW] I like her too
[dan] i'd love a Faith spinoff.
A8> LS, how about a story with Faith falling in love and having her
- heart broken?
[dan] or for her to become a regular on angel.
[CW] Slayer IN JAIL
[LadyStarlight] Um, since I haven't seen S3 yet, don't really know
- Faith
[LadyStarlight] BTW, did you guys read 'Bonding' (shameless
- grasping for compliments here)
A8> Not yet, still digesting Dark Alchemy.
[CW] NOt yet
[dan] Question: were any of y'all into fanfic before Buffy?
[dan] reading or writing it?
[LadyStarlight] Not at all
Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Solitude1056, 20:12:04 10/03/01 Wed
I've noticed in the past few weeks that when trolls come around, the board is responding differently. This group still seems to manage to divert some of the troll posts into long-winded intelligent on-topic discussions, which is good... but I'm a little tired (ok, more than a little tired) of the random trollbot responses that mock the original post. We don't need to sink to that level. It was amusing the first time, but it's just pathetic now. We have folks writing from different backgrounds, cultures, and language abilities, and sending in the troll-parody at the drop of a hat has lost the amusement factor, IMO.
I'm going back to ignoring them, as the first solution. If that doesn't work, I'll just take myself to a different board, because I don't like and don't appreciate the notion that folks are getting mocked. I much preferred it when even the trolls got the benefit of the doubt and we still managed to wrap their feistiness into an intelligent on-topic discussion, and failing that, just ignored them.
Just my two dinar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I totally agree, but have to admit that... -- A8, 20:25:30 10/03/01 Wed
...every once in a while, the troll-bot response does give me a giggle. Can't help it if I'm emotionally-growth stunted at times. I don't think the trolls or troll-bot responses have been so voluminous as to merit too much concern at this time--yet. Probably best for everyone to just ignore them and start more thoughtful discussions on new message threads.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Normally I agree -- Cactus Watcher, 20:30:12 10/03/01 Wed
But the guy pushing the pyramid scheme deserved razzing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Rufus, 20:37:39 10/03/01 Wed
Sol, everyone eventually learns not to feed the trolls, posative or negative comments only encourage more attacks, so the best bet is to ignore them completely...period. If someone in the thread says something worth commenting on reply to them and leave the trolls alone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Drizzt, 20:43:43 10/03/01 Wed
Like the recent Trolls that have been posting propeganda, I did try to divert discussion in my own interest. I was not explicitely rude; I was worse in being passive-aggressive. I speak as a borderline troll(just a couple of my threads) in saying I have been treated civily on this board. I would miss you if you left Solitude.
Regarding Jean and Susan; I and others did reply to their posts seriously, but they continued to post what I considered illogical or worse inane and pointless comments. That is when I thought of them as Trolls; I gave them a benefit of the doupt to start with.
The last two or three have been single posts that were not even slightly relivent and in at least one case it was a plaugerized article that was posted without giving credit to the author. I do not think all posts need to be relivent, however propeganda that is simply posted and not defended should be ignored completely.
Anyone who decides to post an oppinion SHOULD be willing to defend it, and failling that; change their mind.
Hmmm I like the Buffybot on the show, but you are right about it getting old here. The buffybot V.1 was SO perky though;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Wisewoman, 20:51:11 10/03/01 Wed
If that doesn't work, I'll just take myself to a different board, because I don't like and don't appreciate the notion that folks are getting mocked.
Um, Sol, that doesn't sound like a "minor request." It sounds like an ultimatum.
Is there no room for discussion here? Could you be a bit more specific about who was being "mocked"? I don't consider a comment that something was blatantly off-topic to be mocking. Am I missing something?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- cknight, 21:29:30 10/03/01 Wed
I agree with Wisewoman,
we all use this board to share our views. Maybe some
people you think are trolls, really aren't. Maybe they're just new to the board. I know one thing we don't need and I hope it doesn't happen, is that a "click" gets created. Where certain "posters" will only answer certain other "posters". I've been posting since last winter and hopefully I have not pissed off or mocked anyone, if I have I'm sorry. But again if someone posts something that you or whomever feel is mocking please speak (post) up. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Not personal, nor necessarily an ultimatum. Just observing & disliking. -- Solitude1056, 22:02:30 10/03/01 Wed
I don't like any folks getting mocked or mimicked or ridiculed, no matter how amusing the rest of us may find it. I'm regretting any indication that I encouraged such behavior. So I won't support such, any more. I'm voting at this point with my fingers, but I'll do it later with my feet, if that's what it comes to. If I didn't speak up, then yeah, blame me for just ducking & leaving. But I'm speaking up.
I'm just asking folks to think twice before they ridicule someone personally or mock someone's post. We may be dealing with a troll, we may be dealing with someone who's just new & hasn't lurked for long enough to realize that it's a dead topic or that off-topic isn't welcome, or whatever. We may even just be dealing with someone who's not the best with English. In any case, there's three responses we've usually had: asking for clarification, diverting it into an on-topic thread, or ignoring the post altogether. Mocking or ridiculing isn't an acceptable option, again in my humble opinion. We don't need to sink to that level. Just think before you post, either in posting a non-constructive response or in encouraging it. We're better than that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> and may I add.... -- Liq, 22:08:55 10/03/01 Wed
That we may be dealing with a regular member of our group who is somehow intimidated by the fact that we may not agree and censor them and who does not give their familiar username.
I respect all of your opinions. I consider you friends. If we disagree... oh well.... that is what free speech and free will is.
I will repeat now what I said last week when I got so annoyed. This board is here for a specific reason which we all enjoy. We respect each other. We are known for that. We also occasionally stray off-topic. All for the good. I suggest, again, that if there is a topic that really, honestly does not belong on this board, then the people interested in discussing it, get together and meet in the chat room. That is what it is for and it keeps our board available for the reason it was intended.
That's the end of my rant. Here's hoping we can keep it together, because I really appreciate each and everyone of you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Liq, 22:02:43 10/03/01 Wed
I'm afraid I have to agree with Sol here.
If you have noticed, I have avoided the troll posts. I was getting so frustrated,that it was not a pleasure to be here. The reason I love this board is the camaderie. I know that if I feel like being an idiot, you will all, for the most part, forgive me because we are one big happy family. I am all for new members to the family (sully, where are you?) but when people come on this board with the intent to stir up a political riot to further their fanatic cause, I get very pissed off. This board is my retreat. I would appreciate keeping it this way. I will never censor this board, however, it is my clear choice whether to continue being a member.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Summer's over -- Masquerade, 22:19:08 10/03/01 Wed
The new season has started, and our little board will be catching the eye of many newcomers who are looking for Buffy sites and posting boards (at least I hope!). They won't know the culture of our board, or the atmosphere that we enjoy.
I think the best way to deal with this natural turn of events is to do what we always do:
• Welcome newcomers,
• Engage in level-headed reasoned discussions,
• don't feed the trolls their own medicine,
• Find the fun in stuff,
• be our creative intelligent selves,
and, generally, show by example the kind of board we like to have. Those who like that will stay, the others will get bored and fall away.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Marie, 01:47:55 10/04/01 Thu
I read all the threads here, every day, and I think you can usually tell a troll immediately. I never respond, but I do read the answers given by the regulars here, because they usually make some sense out of the silliness. I can't say I've noticed a great deal of real rudeness or mocking in their replies..maybe I missed something.
And the trolls never stick around for long, do they, when they realise people aren't rising. So, don't go, Sol, just don't read the threads!
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- rowan, 06:54:41 10/04/01 Thu
I'll add that I had my first unpleasant experience here yesterday. I felt my views about the potential meaning of Willow's actions in Bargaining (which I was trying to express objectively) were attacked on a personal level several times by different posters. This was not by anyone I recognized as a regular, but I haven't been here as frequently during the summer as I was during S5, so I don't recognize all names.
Frankly, I don't like it. But people are free to express themselves as they choose, just as I'm free not to like it. I can't change others' behavior, I can only control mine. But I'll honestly say that if it continues, I'll be taking a break from the negativity too. It disappoints me, because this is the one board that really seemed to me to be a shining example of honoring people's diverse opinions and engaging in free-spirited debate.
If as Liq suggests, it's a regular who is posting under different names (for whatever reason), that also makes me feel strange and uncomfortable.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> One of the first times I posted here... -- Marie, 08:09:46 10/04/01 Thu
...(and it took me a LONG time to venture a post) it was about Angelus, only I used the name 'Angel'. I waited with trepidation to see if anyone would reply to me, and was SO upset when the very first reply I got was the one-liner "Don't you mean Angelus?", with no comment on the actual content of my post, at all! There were other, kinder, replies, but that one hit me hard, and I didn't post again for ages. As time past, though, I came to realise that this person didn't mean to be unkind - it was just a little thoughtless (at least I hope so!), so don't let one person put you off, Rowan, there are others who would be sad to see you go.
Marie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Rowan -- Cactus Watcher, 09:03:34 10/04/01 Thu
Although we kind of made peace yesterday, I know I contributed to the way you felt. I'm sorry for that.
Frankly, I feel like I get jumped on every other time I try to say something serious on this board. If I took it personally, I would have quit long before this.
I know I'm not the only one who posts here who has taught college. But, I can't help being a little preachy. That's what I did. I write bluntly, because while my knowledge of general philosophy is pretty bad, my grasp of formal logic is pretty good. I will go after someone's argument if I know the premises are bad. That is not supposed to be an attack on the person. But, often I get attacked on a personal level in return. Not everybody here wants to keep the debate on the same level. We all have to make allowances for that, especially me. Please everybody, don't take things I say personally. But, like everybody else, I would like people to think seriously, about the serious things I say.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Confusion reigning, at least at my end. -- Wisewoman, 08:29:27 10/04/01 Thu
Okay, I'm going out on a limb here. I think this topic is important because of the level of emotional language being expressed by the posters. Words like pathetic, attacked, negativity, etc. And I'm still not getting it. And Sol is still threatening to vote with her/his feet.
I'm also confused about what people think is the issue? Sol seems to be ticked off about the Trollbot. Quite frankly, Sol created the original idea of a Trollbot, and I'd always assumed that Sol was the Trollbot. Okay, that's obviously not the case. Someone is continuing to post as the Trollbot, and some posters find it humorous, some don't. That's life. I don't think it's necessary to have a sort of Trollbot ban, but if that's what it comes down to, fine. I just really feel that Masq should be the one to dictate such a ban. Her board, her rules. I, for one, will abide by them.
I admit I have not read the thread in which rowan expresses her views about Willow's actions yet. At a quick glance that discussion doesn't appear to involve Trolls, but I could be wrong. How do we define Troll? Whose definition do we use? I had assumed that the Trolls were identifiable by their robotic nature, as Sol suggested. Now I don't know anymore. Is this in fact a different issue, one of personal attacks, rather than Trolls? Or is the issue one of negativity in general?
IME, discussion boards and groups start to deteriorate when cliques develop (as cknight mentioned earlier), or when someone or some group presumes to dictate the behaviour, attitude, and/or responses of others. This does not take the form of reasoned discussion within a specific thread where the perceived infraction occurred. This takes the form, at the least, of an announcement or a reproach, by someone or some group other than the board's owner/moderator.
Speaking personally, and within the specific thread, I feel reprimanded by Sol's comments, not a feeling I've experienced at this board before. If there was ever a place where folks did not need to be exhorted to "think before you post," this was it.
:o|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Confusion reigning, at least at my end. -- rowan, 09:07:25 10/04/01 Thu
Wisewoman, you've expressed how I felt yesterday during my posts...I was reprimanded at least 3 times by other posters. It's the first time I've experienced that, too. Maybe I should just be mature enough to shrug it off. I had planned to just lay low for a while and not say anything. Maybe that would have been the best course.
I don't get that reprimanded feeling from Sol's post today, but perhaps it's because I'm feeling much the same emotions, for a slightly different reason.
Is Mercury in retrograde? Maybe we need group therapy. ;)
Thanks for listening, all!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Yup. It's that dad-blasted Mer