October 2001 posts
a Willow theory being kicked around -- celticross, 11:44:18 10/17/01 Wed
A theory I've read on a few other BtVS boards is that Willow's current super-witch status, and the accompanying arrogance, are a side effect of reservee brain-sucking Glory in The Gift. Ok, I'd been seeing her go darker from Tough Love, but the overt declaration of power in Flooded makes me wonder if maybe there's not something else going on in Willow's brain, something she might not even know about. What think the posters?
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[> Re: a Willow theory being kicked around -- OnM, 12:11:41 10/17/01 Wed
An interesting theory, and it certainly could be valid, but looking at it from what I imagine the writer's perspective to be, it would be important for Willow to go 'dark' on her own, not with any outside help. It's just too easy to make excuses otherwise, and it's my guess they would want to avoid that.
It's pretty much like the sitch with Buffy being yanked from 'heaven'-- the idea is to point out the reasons why Willow was out of her league and acted rashly in trying to bring Buffy back. If Buffy imagined the 'heaven', or it was just a rush of endorphins, then where's the lesson?
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[> [> Re: a Willow theory being kicked around -- darrenK, 12:38:04 10/17/01 Wed
The other thing to consider is that if some of Glory's consciousness found it's way into Willow as a result of the reverse-brain suck, wouldn't Tara have gotten some it as well?
It was her consciousness stuck in Glory. Wouldn't there have been some melding going on?
Seems that way to me. dK
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[> Willow, Tara & "Restless" -- Dichotomy, 13:10:27 10/17/01 Wed
"the overt declaration of power in Flooded makes me wonder if maybe there's not something else going on in Willow's brain, something she might not even know about."
I agree. Willow almost seemed a bit taken aback herself after her "don't piss me off" semi-threat. Although I'm not convinced it's entirely Glory related. I've always thought that perhaps Tara knows more about things than she lets on, and I wonder if she may become instrumental in either Willow's flirtation with evil or, later, her saving grace. It made me think of Willow's dream in "Restless":
(Shot of their kitten, playing with a ball of red yarn in slow-motion.)
TARA: You'd think she'd let us know her name by now.
WILLOW: She will. (Looking down at Tara) She's not all grown yet.
TARA: You're not worried?
WILLOW: I never worry here. (Smile) I'm safe here.
TARA: You don't know everything about me.
WILLOW: Have you told me your real name?
(Tara smiles.)
TARA: Oh, you know that.
(Willow smiles, reaches for something.)
(Shot of a paintbrush dipping into ink jars.)
TARA: They will find out, you know.
(Shot of Willow's face.)
TARA: About you.
WILLOW: Don't have time to think about that. (Frown) You know I have all this homework to finish.
(The camera pulls back so we can see Tara is lying face-down on her bed, naked, and Willow is painting on her back.)
TARA: Are you gonna finish in time for class?
WILLOW: I can be late.
TARA: But you've never taken drama before.
(Shot of Willow dipping the paintbrush again, moving it across to Tara's back, which is covered with Greek symbols.)
TARA: Might miss something important.
(Pause)
WILLOW: I don't wanna leave here.
(Tara twists back to look at her.)
TARA: Why not?
(Willow stands up, looking down at Tara. She turns away toward a dark red curtain. Walks over to it.)
WILLOW: It's so bright.
I haven't given great thought to what it can possibly mean, but, again, I think Tara has much more siginificance than just being Willow's devoted lover and friend, and loyal member of the SG. And I think it may be this season that we find out just what that significance is.
Of course, that's just a thought off the top of my head. I usually find that many posters here have much more sophisticated theories than I do and love reading them. Has this been addressed before? And if not, what do some of you great thinkers, uh, think?
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[> [> Re: Willow, Tara & "Restless" -- Lunarchickk, 13:52:18 10/17/01 Wed
First off, can I just say? I loved Restless. Year and a half later, and I'm still analyzing it. :)
Anyway, here's an interesting parallel that I noticed in your message above:
Restless...
TARA: You're not worried?
WILLOW: I never worry here. (Smile) I'm safe here.
AfterLife...
TARA: Are you worried?
WILLOW: Worried? Tara, it worked fine. It's all good.
TARA: Hey, Will. This is me. It doesn't all have to be "good" and "fine." This is the room where you don't have to be brave and I still love you. If you're worried you can be worried.
WILLOW: I'm not ... unworried. (...)
An interesting shift from end of Season 4 to beginning of Season 6... Not sure what it might mean, but it's definitely a shift in Willow's perceptions of Tara and what she can share with her.
TARA: They will find out, you know.
(Shot of Willow's face.)
TARA: About you.
WILLOW: Don't have time to think about that. (Frown) You know I have all this homework to finish.
Now this, IMO, sounds like what we're seeing now with Willow... She doesn't have the time to think about what will happen, what consequences she may face as a result of the magicks she is playing with -- at least not until after she's done what only she can do (in her mind, at least), and brought Buffy back.
There's a post around archive 4 (currently) in which I rambled a bit about Willow's dream in Restless... I think it does foreshadow quite a bit of what we're seeing now. "Things aren't going very well," Tara says, later in the dream. If the drama class is Willow's dark path... then it's not going very well at all. She's entirely unprepared for the role she's been thrust into. "Is there something following me?" Willow asks. She could be referring to the spirit of the First Slayer, everpresent in their dreams in Restless; or, is she foreshadowing something external that possesses her in scenes like that in AfterLife, when she drops Tara's hands and tilts her head back, surrounded by a strange aura?
Now I've definitely rambled enough about Restless. Please, somebody else take over! :)
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[> [> [> Re: Willow, Tara & "Restless" -- celticross, 18:40:25 10/17/01 Wed
"She could be referring to the spirit of the First Slayer,
everpresent in their dreams in Restless; or, is she foreshadowing something external that possesses her in scenes like that
in AfterLife, when she drops Tara's hands and tilts her head back, surrounded by a strange aura?"
The scene in Afterlife really had me wondering...every other time her eyes have gone black casting a spell, Willow seemed in control of herself and the magic. But in that scene, it didn't seem conscious on her part, like something external made her drop Tara's hands and invoke a totally different spell. Maybe that's just my impression.
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[> Re: a Willow theory being kicked around -- Andy, 06:41:09 10/18/01 Thu
I think the problem with that theory is that if you believe Tara (and I don't see any reason not to), Willow was pretty much a super-witch way before she ever did anything to Glory. I can't remember the episode, but the first time I started tweaking to "Dark Willow" was when she cast that light spell when she and Tara were out patrolling. Tara seemed shocked that Willow was capable of doing a spell of that level but Willow blew it off as just something she had been messing around with, which might have been the first sign that she didn't take magic seriously (at least when not in some emotional crisis). I think whatever is wrong with Willow is entirely of her own making and has nothing to do with Glory or anything else.
Andy
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[> Re: a Willow theory being kicked around -- Juliette, 08:56:23 10/19/01 Fri
I think it would be cool for the brain-sucking to have a side effect like that, but I don't think its the reason for Willow turning to the Dark Side. Willow has always been irresponsible in her use of magic - the first time was Becoming when the plot required someone to perform the risky soul restoration spell, and there have numerous examples since then - Lover's Walk, Doppelgangland, Wild At Heart (almost), Something Blue, Triangle. In Intervention and Tough Love Tara says Willow's strength frightens her and there's the whole resurrection issue in Forever.
If Spike is Love's Bitch...then it looks like Willow is Power's Bitch....... -- Rufus, 13:40:51 10/17/01 Wed
Spike may be a vampire, but the thing that urges him on to do the things he does is love. Without it he seems to be nothing. Love is like any other addiction, used the wrong way it can make us do things like a drunk person. Spike is capable of acting against vampire norm because it isn't being a vampire that is the most important to him (all his bragging aside), but love and what he is willing do to get or keep it. Willow is another story. She is someone who has known the pain of rejection for most of her life. Buffy coming into her life was the best thing to happen to a girl who was mostly invisible to the others. A geek who would always remain the wallflower. On the discovery that she had power, power that could help Buffy, Willow embraced it like a lifeline. Her ability to do magic gave her a place that made her feel wanted and valued. So, what the hell happened to sweet Willow? Power. It's like any other drug....it can make you it's bitch, doing things that you would never have thought of before. Willow is Powers Bitch. Even her relationship with Tara can't break that hold that power has on Willow. Her addiction is not just to what it can do for her, but the recognition she feels she deserves. Giles put a spanner into that last night.
Willow: You have a good talk with Buffy?
Giles: Yes, now that she's back.
Willow: Isn't it awesome?
Giles: Mmm. Tell me about this spell you performed.
Willow:(suddenly excited)Okay. First of all - so scary. Like, the Blair Witch would have to watch like this. (covers eyes)And this giant snake came out my mouth and then there was all this energy crackling and then this pack of demons interrupted but I totally kept it together and the next thing you know...Buffy.
She proudly awaits his kudos.
Giles: (Sadly, quiet) You're a very stupid girl.
Beat. Willow blinks, re-grouping.....
Willow: What? Giles...
Giles: Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed? The lines you've crossed?
Willow: I thought you'd be....(swallows)...impressed, or something.
Giles: Oh, don't worry, you've made a deep impression. Of everyone here - you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces of nature.
Willow: Are you saying you don't trust me?
Giles: Think of what you've done to Buffy?
Willow: I brought her back.
Giles: At incredible risk.
Willow: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?
Giles: Killing us all. Unleashing a hell on Earth. Shall I go on?
Willow: No! Giles, I did what I had to do. I did what nobody else could do.
Giles: Oh, there are others in the world who can do what you did. You just don't want to meet them.
Willow: Okay, probably not - but they're the bad guys. I am not a bad guy. I brought Buffy back to the world and maybe the word you should be looking for is "congratulations."
Giles: Having Buffy back in the world makes me feel indescribably wonderful - but I wouldn't congratulate you if you jumped off a cliff and happened to survive.
Willow: That's not what I did, Giles!
Giles: You were lucky.
Willow: I wasn't lucky, I was amazing. How would you know anyway? You weren't even there.
Giles: (almost yelling) If I had been I'd have bloody well stopped you! The Magicks you channeled are more primal and ferocious than you can hope to understand, and you're lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant, amateur.
Beat. Giles is done. Willow flatlines, total calm, staring into his eyes. Then:
Willow: You're right. The Magicks I used are incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful. (beat) Angel maybe it's not such a good idea for you to piss me off.
The two just stare at each other. Long beat. Finally Willow relents, back to herself.
Willow: C'mon Giles, I don't want to fight. Let's not, okay? I'll think about what you said, and you...try to be happy Buffy's back.
Giles is right, Willow is a stupid girl. She is arrogant enough to think that the power she uses is under HER control when it comes from a source that has probably used up many stupid girls before her. Her biggest crime at the moment is thinking it's all about her. She doesn't get the fact that wherever this power comes from is leeching away what Willow once was, a sweet, caring person who thought of others before herself. She is now a girl who is pleased about what she thinks are her accomplishments. Giles warned her that she isn't the only or the first kid on the block that can bring back the dead, and , I wonder if it sunk in about what type of being you become to get that power. Willow is in the throes of a need...the need to be more than she was, not happy with the Willow who knew the softer side of Sears. How long is it before Willow moves on from things that are ostensibly for the benefit of the world to becoming one of the things that Giles warns her she doesn't want to meet?
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[> Re: If Spike is Love's Bitch...then it looks like Willow is Power's Bitch....... -- JoRus, 15:52:00 10/17/01 Wed
Nice, Rufus. Yes, I couldn't believe Willow thought Giles would praise her and "think she was all cool, and stuff". Obviously the lies and evasions she has been using with everyone are really working on herself...she is really managing to put a glossy layer of denial over anything she doesn't want to deal with. Wasn't powerful enough to de rat Amy at one time? No problem. Let's just not think about Amy ever again. Icky deer incident? Let's call it wine of the mother something and forget all about it. She isn't thinking of the power she wants so badly as requiring any payment, even if the electric and gas companies manage to convince the rest of us that the bill is due.
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[> [> Willow the Sociopath -- Dru Kalita, 20:08:29 10/17/01 Wed
I'm starting to think that maybe Willow resurrected Buffy just to see "if she could do it" and not for any real vested interest in having her friend back. Willow is not a psychopath: she knows the difference between right and wrong. She knew that raising the dead is wrong. But she's become so drunk on power that these little moral constraints don't matter anymore. She knows it's wrong, but doesn't care. Willow is a sociopath.
She keeps reiterating about Buffy being in a Hell dimension. But she didn't know. If she was really concerned about the welfare of her friend, wouldn't it have been a good course of action to try and contact Buffy's soul first? Certainly, for someone with so much power, contacting the dead should be a simple thing. And for a rational witch with legitimate reasons to bring someone back, I think this would have been a logical and necessary step to take before the drastic actions in "Bargaining."
Willow is living in her own little world. She ignored the problems in Sunnydale in favor of finding a way to bring Buffy back, and then ignored the potential dangers of resurrection in favor of self-congratulation.
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[> [> [> Re: Willow the Sociopath -- Wynn, 21:19:49 10/17/01 Wed
You may be right that Willow resurrected Buffy just to see if she could do it, but I think she also did it because Buffy is(was?) her best friend. When she was trying to convince Xander why they should continue with the resurrection, she showed real emotion and grief over losing Buffy. Also when she thought that the spell hadn't worked, Willow was devastated. Now that Buffy is back, I do think that Willow isn't being considerate to Buffy and the trauma she suffered by coming back to life. Buffy is her friend, and Willow doesn't want to think that her spell caused Buffy pain. That's probably one of the reasons why she is in denial over the danger the spell could have caused and the emotional damage that was caused to Buffy. I think that Giles is right; Willow is stupid when it comes to her magic. But I don't think that being stupid is enough to be considered a sociopath. At least not yet.
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[> [> [> [> agreed, wynn. and... -- anom, 22:02:10 10/18/01 Thu
Dru Kalita wrote: "She keeps reiterating about Buffy being in a Hell dimension. But she didn't know."
No, she didn't. And she knew that. And she said so. She was afraid Buffy might be in a hell dimension. Now, of course, Buffy has lied & told her & the others that's where she was, so now she believes & repeats it. I think DK has taken this argument further than anything we've seen on the show (yet...) justifies.
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[> [> [> [> [> Some conflict upstairs... -- Dru Kalita, 10:37:25 10/20/01 Sat
::I think DK has taken this argument further than anything we've seen on the show (yet...) justifies.::
I can say it's starting to become horribly obvious that this whole witch business is going to go south *real* fast. I don't like Willow's attitude now, and it's only going to get worse now that she's actually succeeded in something so big and dangerous.
Right now she's on the edge - notice how her personality drastically shifts from moment to moment. One minute she's threatening Giles, then cheerily suggesting they don't fight. It could have been the same with her reasons for bringing Buffy back. One minute she wants to do it because she misses her friend, the next because she can. The girl has some serious mental problems, and she's really starting to scare me.
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[> Re: If Spike is Love's Bitch...then it looks like Willow is Power's Bitch....... -- anom, 22:13:26 10/18/01 Thu
"Willow is another story. She is someone who has known the pain of rejection for most of her life. Buffy coming into her life was the best thing to happen to a girl who was mostly invisible to the others. A geek who would always remain the wallflower. On the discovery that she had power, power that could help Buffy, Willow embraced it like a lifeline. Her ability to do magic gave her a place that made her feel wanted and valued."
Except...remember in Welcome to the Hellmouth? As soon as she sat down at the computer she was confident & in control. I think that was when I really started liking her. So she always had this area where she knew she was really good; it's just that it was a very limited area & didn't involve other people much. Considering the way most other people treated her, that may have made it a safe area for her. Maybe what the magic did was give her a feeling of control when she was dealing w/other people.
Buffy's Costume in "Halloween" -- Humanitas, 17:16:34 10/17/01 Wed
A while back we were talking about costumes (I know, big shocker), and somebody asked about the dress that Buffy wears in Halloween. I'd said that I'd weigh in on it after I saw the ep, so here goes (any of the rest of you costume / fashion buffs feel free to add anything I've missed, or tell me if you think I'm off base).
The dress is about right for the time-period (1786, I think), but it's not the gown of a European noblewoman. It's much more colonial in that the skirt is supported by a crinoline, rather than a hoop of some sort. This type of dress was usually worn over a corset, but this one is designed to be worn over modern undergarments (you can tell by the way Buffy falls - not nearly stiff enough to be wearing all that boning). The hot-pink used for the bodice-panel was not available with period dye, either. At least, I don't think so. It looked like an annelin dye to me, and those are pretty modern. Of course, the first Big Hint that it's a costume, rather than a reconstuction, is the zipper in the back!
By the way, I noticed that this costume changed less than most of the others, probably because the darn things are both expensive and a pain in the butt to make. The only change I caught was a little more lace at the sleeves.
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[> that's not all. -- Solitude1056, 18:01:02 10/17/01 Wed
Weighing in as someone who's done reenactment for Rev-War and French/Indian War... I can honestly state that the only folks who'd genuinely think it's a "real" style would be a costumer in Los Angeles on a shoe string budget. Let's see.
The neckline was too narrow in at the shoulders, and came up a bit too high. The bodice itself was curved, and had a silouhette far more like a modern prom dress than the sausage-shape or upside-down-cone of Georgian styles. The bodice continued on down to curve out a bit over the hips, vaguely reminiscent of Edwardian styles - albeit filtered through Hollywood, again - and Edwardian's a hundred years after Georgian. The bodice should end in a soft point at the front (and possibly back) for Georgian, riding up higher to the hips on the sides, because the corsets went from under the arms to the hipbones - that also meant hardly any curve in at the waist - those corsets just didn't curve much. Oh, and the darts? No, no darts until nearly a hundred years later; previously it was all curves in the side seams that helped things get nice and fitty. At least they didn't make the hoopskirt obvious, but it's more likely that they stuck a horsehair crinoline under it simply because otherwise the poor actress (as well as the stuntwoman) would've probably fallen over herself trying to do anything but stand still or walk forward, let alone run. The sleeves were acceptable, if a little short and cut more like modern sleeves - the seam goes from the lower chest to wrist-side, not from the armpit to inside wrist. And don't even get me started about the colors - I've managed a shocking pink from pokeweed berries, but only in wool, and even then it washes out pretty much instantly. Trivia: cotton dyed with those pink pokeweed berries turns... mustard yellow, I hear. Bizarre.
So, uh, given that you just got whalloped with too much information, I'll translate for me 'n Humanitas: No, my dear, Hollywood doesn't know jack about "historical" - but it's a cute storyline, and a bad costume won't ruin it. ;-) Unless you're a member of the Historical Inquisition, which I am, dammit, but don't hold that against me. Unless you've got long legs and/or a motorcycle, in which case [CENSORED]. Woo hoo! ;D
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[> [> Speaking of that ep. -- The Airborne Apostate, 21:28:14 10/17/01 Wed
I can also tell you that Xander put in a very poor showing as an infantryman in that episode. For one thing, he was way undressed to be equipped with a rifle. More importantly, he completely lacked what's known as fire discipline. Long bursts while waving the rifle around may look cool, but all they do its waste ammo and increase the risk of jamming the weapon. Also, Xander showed poor firing stance.
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[> [> [> Also . . . -- Slayrunt, 01:08:13 10/18/01 Thu
the sound was a M60 or M224 machine gun in place of the M16.
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[> [> [> [> worst, Willow's ghost impersonation was just so not-authentic! She never went "whooo" even once! -- Solitude1056, 09:52:45 10/18/01 Thu
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[> [> Um, yeah -- fresne, 08:42:09 10/18/01 Thu
Odd, looks like the last post I made was about the said same costume. Of course that was 7000 miles of road trip ago (no motorcycles or bleached blondes were involved).
What Sol said.
But yeah, not only would noble (even countrified noble garb) have been difficult to run around in, but lets face it, not exactly slap together quick to make.
Though at least they didn't go for the oh so period color of puce, which I believe was the Sun King's fav color.
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[> [> Thanks, Solitude! -- Humanitas, 13:19:14 10/18/01 Thu
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist chiming in on this one, especially since this is much more your period than mine. I'm with the Renaissance Division of the Historical Inquisition. Thanks for having my back. ;)
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[> [> [> anytime, bro. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 13:38:03 10/18/01 Thu
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[> [> whoa, sol... -- anom, 20:12:08 10/18/01 Thu
...you ain't gonna get to see me in my renfair/medfest costume (yeah, pretty much the same for both...that'll tell you how inauthentic it is right there!).
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[> [> [> Not really my time period, but you can avoid Humanitas if it makes you feel better. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 05:56:54 10/19/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Hey, now, I'm an Inquisitor With a Soul. Really. ;) -- Humanitas, 13:37:17 10/19/01 Fri
So, anom, what shows do you go to? Not too many places that have both a Renaissance and a Medieval Faire. I promise not to come after you with the thumb-screws. ;)
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[> [> [> [> Just the rack -- fresne, 14:35:01 10/19/01 Fri
Because the comfy chair is just too hard to haul out to the fair for a weekend torture.
Bulky, heavy. No definitely the rack.
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[> [> [> [> [> No, not the rack! -- anom, 21:08:18 10/20/01 Sat
The rack's great for Addams Family nostalgia, but still too unwieldy for hauling around. Not as heavy as an iron maiden, but bulky & awkward, ya know? For portability, nothing beats a simple set of needles to shove under the fingernails, & if you want hot needles, just keep a candle lit...not that you're gonna get anywhere near me w/any of that stuff! @>)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hey, now, I'm an Inquisitor With a Soul. Really. ;) -- anom, 21:13:17 10/20/01 Sat
The Medieval Festival is in Fort Tryon Park in upper Manhattan (as the flyers say, take the A train...to the Middle Ages!). The Renaissance Fair is a small event held by, & in, a nursing home in the Bronx. So it's all very local. Unfortunately, I missed the first, since it was postponed due to the WTC attack to a weekend I was away, & the second may not be held due to budget problems. So I may go without this year!
Spike, Chips, Vampires, Pack mentalities, and Palov Conditioning -- Charlemagne20, 20:05:50 10/17/01 Wed
Okay Vampires IMHO aren't actually "evil" because they are as Angel so bluntly proved by his visit to Pylea animals. Their spirits like those in the Pack prove all animals have are that to procreate, kill, and feed.
Human spirits are to nuture, grow, and teach.
A Vampire such as Spike is really nothing more than an intelligent predator of humans who posseses all the memories and mannerisms that will allow him to pass himself off as a member of the human race for an extended period in order to feed with ease. It's rather like an evolved Bug zapper...the light attracts you then Bbbzzzzt.
Given from what we know about Vampires it's quite possible that the Last Demon who left the world and shared it's blood with a human designed Vampires in such a way that they would keep the herd low and/or destroy humans-Almost certainly in fact (one also wonders if Vampires having "other faces" in the Demon Dimension actually are summoned to the universe rather than simply bred each time they are created by another vampire).
Spike is an interesting case because unlike Angel he is not a human being who is trapped in a Vampire's body with a demon pressing him on (as seems to be the case) but is a Demon who has been fitted with Palovian reward system. We have just been assuming that Spike's ability to kill Demons was an oversight by the Doctor but for it to be that selective is obviously by design.
Thus the Vampire spirit which takes pleasure in killing because it eliminates a rival in territory and opens further chances for food is restricted to the sexual like satisfaction it seems to get in Spike's case for destroying fellow Demons as electrical shock is the "punishment" for harming humans.
I know Big deal we knew this.
However viewing Spike as an animal we learn that the figure is becomming less than Angel as an intelligent human being but fufilling what seems to be Doctor Walsh's desire for a trained attack Dog or perhaps even "Demon Sniffer".
Vampires seem to prey on humans and ally with demons mainly because the former provides more blood, more wealth (they seem to be thieves for most of their goods), and pose little physical threat while the later provides little of any three. If we look at Spike as a "wolf" or similar animal the reason larger demons often have vampire followers is because they have a pack mentality and masters are merely those strong enough to enforce dominion. The other vampires follow for security and more wealth.
Spike's conditioning would not effect this pack mentality and because Buffy is not killing him as his natural predator(the Slayer) his instincts would lead to Buffy as a natural "leader" in light of abscence of physical need to procreate as a mate (Vampires I suspect rut not out of physical desire but the pleasures of the mind-leftover memory and instinct if you will).
Hence Spike is not likely to turn on Buffy anymore than he has simply adjusted to being in a new Vampiric pact with his prey now demons and food provided by animals.
Thoughts?
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[> Maybe a little from column A and s little from column B -- Chew-lean, 21:02:27 10/17/01 Wed
A lot of what you say is reasonable, but I'm not willing to accept that Vampires are purely pack predators. To me, Angel's refined "vampyl" form seemed to be killing to satisfy a mindless appetite for destruction. I feel that way because Fred distracted Angel and had him follow her WITH the collected blood. I mean, why would he not stopped from killing Gunn and Wesley if he was aware that they were just as good blood banks as things to crush? I stand by the notion that Vampires, like most demons (i remember to exclude the balancing demons and the ambivalent/free will/genetic cross-breed demons), have an innate urge to cause suffering to mortal animals.
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[> [> Such savagry may have a biological advantage -- Charlemagne20, 21:31:56 10/17/01 Wed
Interesting points.
Wolverines after all are small but deadly creatures, why not Vampires in a land of people who are nearly unkillable and devoted to war?
It's possible also in this case that the land of Pylea was not COMPLETELY black and white as the Host proves. Also the fact Humans are animals yet some Pyleans feel the need to breed with them and deception exists to keep the humans enslaved.
More precisley it's probably TAOistic in that alittle remains of the Vampire in Angel the human as their does Angel the human in the Vampire. Fred might have distracted the Demon because Angel wanted the blood or it's possible that spilled blood attracted angel by it's smell more than the necessity of killing.
(An animal will go for free meat rather than hunt it's own)
The fact that Gunn and Wesley AREN'T grease spots on the carpet of the High Queen C's throne room is the biggest evidence I think that Vampires have no innate urge beyond feeding, procreating, and need to protect territory to kill and destroy humans.
But that is enough.
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[> [> [> still not convinced, but much greyer -- Chew-Lean, 22:17:23 10/17/01 Wed
Hmm, but this source demon didn't just evolve in Pylea - True, Wolverine under threat = beserker rage, but we also got the sense that the Source demon had intentions for feeding on a human to the point of death and then feeding it with demon blood in order to infect it with the demon traits. It seems that the writers have either done some backtracking to make the universe more grey or (reaching here) the vampire soul is basic and only complete like the original if the human element(personality/thought rather than soul)is more present. More episodes come to mind like a Buffy s.2 one where Angel adds (after fighting out Egyphon) that the demon inside him had been looking for a good fight.
Again, assuming the predator was going for the food when instead the Demon-concentrate might be lashing out more and more out of malica as well as self-defense. It's not an animals way to go off hunting its attackers, just to fight hard enough to scare them off. He went after the escaped gaurd, leaving the perfectly good downed enemy and food source, and instead nearly took down Wesley and Gunn. Right in the cusp of victory, where i think most predators would not give up on such certain victory, he is distracted by the reminder of his hunger.
Anyways, you're completely right about the balance and impurity of More Van-tal Angel (just checked the shooting script) and More Human Angel
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[> [> [> [> well the theory is not perfectly refined yet but it gives I think quite a few ideas -- Charlemagne20, 23:36:58 10/17/01 Wed
If we wanted to fully see what the Demonic Vampyre in it's "pure form" was like we'd have to view one in said form at work and thus far we only have a half-breed specimen in Angel comming closest (and it is possible his human mind led him to "direct" his animal side in Pylea if not control it like on Earth) and the actions of those Animals which have been infused with human traits to pass themselves better off as their prey (at least in this working model).
It's possible that the Source demon was conducting "animal experimentation" however in an attempt to breed what might be construed as a biological weapon against humanity. In fact my best guess is that is exactly what happened with the animal and the man being combined into something much more dangerous to humans as a whole.
As such again we can't tell much about the original Vampyre creature if there ever even was one (the original Vampyre might itself be a weapon developed by demon kind). However I still stand by my view that the Vampire is best viewed less as a sentient creature so much as a predator with human qualities.
Spike's "domestication" thus becomes both much more comical and much more understandable with his affection, patrolling, etc the result of instilled traits very much reminiscent of a wild beast brought to bear. We can understand thus his actions I think and bring them to bear even as we can appreciate Giles's reasons for no longer slaying him.
All in all we can't even use Earth models for studying the Vampiric "animal" because as while you say Earth predators drive off their prey it is possible on Pylea the heightened aggression of demonic animals leads demon-animals like the Vampyre to eradicate all other percieved threats.
-Charlemagne
Good talking to you
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[> [> [> [> [> no, no, thank you - it was fun -- Chew-Lean, 00:18:15 10/18/01 Thu
Thus to sleep well at night, I too stand by my opinion that vampires are more than just predators, they are stained with evil tendencies.
And one last nit-pick, Angel is the result of an earth-dimension vampire, not Pylean
By the way, it was also good to participate in a topic like this. It raises my own thinking quotient up to atleast a 3 out of 10. I don't plan on losing my lurker/"Oz" status soon
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[> [> [> [> [> [> And, yes, it was chocked with Intelligent goodies (NT) -- Chew-lean, 00:19:32 10/18/01 Thu
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[> I have to go with Occam's Razor -- Greta, 10:20:50 10/18/01 Thu
*A Vampire such as Spike is really nothing more than an intelligent predator of humans who posseses all the memories and mannerisms that will allow him to pass himself off as a member of the human race for an extended period in order to feed with ease. It's rather like an evolved Bug zapper...the light attracts you then Bbbzzzzt.*
This notion is far more complicated and convoluted than the equally plausible notion, from what we've seen in flashbacks for all the major vamp characters, that they retain their personalities if not their souls. So I stand with the concept that, all things being equal, the simpler idea is usually the more accurate.
Moreover, there are several factors that lean more in favor of my conception. First, from the beginning (even before the soul issue was raised, vampires in the Buffyverse have been characterized as human-deman hybrids, implying a mixing of elements from both, rather than demons with human Xerox masks stapled to their forehead.
Second, the vampires we've come to know as characters (Angel, Spike, Dru, Darla, Harmony) act and react in very human ways in their interactions with each other and in what we've seen of their introspections. In fact, Spike changing to human face as soon as Drusilla appeared in School Hard was a major plot element strongly suggesting the humanity of his feelings for her; moreover, the Judge didn't accuse them of playacting humanity, he accused Spike and Dru as being full of it. Additionally, why does Spike sit alone in human face feeling love, guilt, grief, etc. when there's no one around he needs to put up a mask for?
*Their spirits like those in the Pack prove all animals have are that to procreate, kill, and feed.
Human spirits are to nuture, grow, and teach.* - either positively or negatively
And as I've said before, the animal in Angelus allowed him to catch Jenny and snap her neck. The man in Angelus arranged her dead body in Giles' bed. No animal can be as cruel as a human being, or something with some human left in it.
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[> [> Vampires do possess human intelligence.... -- Charlemagne20, 10:58:21 10/18/01 Thu
I have little doubt that Spike can enjoy Manchester United along with quite a few other wonderful little things of this world with 6 billion happy meals with legs. I also note that he can feel affection and other points.
However the question comes down to it is that aside from Vampiric "religion" is if demons actually are that different from humans. From what we see in the series it seems that for the most part "intelligent demon/hybrids" suffer from the same problem that Vampires do in that they have animalistic urges/spirits that drive them to a variety of behaviors.
However we don't know that Demon/Hybrids don't necessarily have human souls instead of demons but we do know vampires have demon souls not human (look at the reaction to Angel at the Bachelor party "You invited a vampire?", and the Scourge's reaction to angel "The lowest of the halfbreeds")
As for keeping their human personalities may I point out that their memories/personalities don't seem to affect their basic need to prey or show them signs of guilt or otherwise. Angel murdering his father and sister for instance, Jesse trying to kill Xander, just in general dozens of examples.
Spike and Dru may be "adopting" a lifestyle of humanity but may we note they are still vicious violent killers that it is my opinion the comparison to being "human" is more like a cartoon dog being berated for going soft by a wolf than a spiritual transformation of the soul.
But good points.
-Charlie
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[> [> [> See, I think their personalities have an incredible impact -- Greta, 21:24:22 10/18/01 Thu
on who, why and how they kill. Angelus set up slow artistic kills to become the sophisticated artist/man of the world Liam believed (and Angelus still believed) his father prevented them from being. Spike sought out the toughest fights he could find in order to prove to the world and, IMHO, to prove even more to himself that he was tough. There was even a scene where Darla killed a prostitute and her client, which after "Darla," had a definite implication that she was acting out in rage and denial of her own days on the street. Dru I don't know about, but then she's crazy:) Of course she's crazy because her human self was emotionally broken before she was turned.
Also, their behavior, especially Spike ande Dru's, isn't especially conducive to blending in to human society.
I see not just intelligence still active in these vampires, but human feeling. From a purely rational perspective, acting out on these past slights would be both wasteful and dangerous. Yet they do so anyway, giving them motivations far beyond "see, eat, kill," motivations we can relate to on many levels.
-Greta
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[> [> [> [> True but that may be their demon sides reacting improperly.... -- Charlemagne20, 23:39:28 10/18/01 Thu
If A Dog follows a ball into the Street when a car is comming he's simply following the behavior that his previous experience has been telling him is beneficial.
Anger, Resentment, and so forth from those personalities plus given the motivation to kill with no scruples no doubt does make them quite "specific indeed". Yet Angel usually hunted beautiful women it seemed, Dru had a thing for poetic and just people, Darla prostitutes/young men/their clients, that crazy Puritan...christians.
They go unconciously or not after what they both know which may be biology speaking in how even their personalities toward revenge is a biological advantage.
Just a thought. Good stuff.
-Charlie
Jobs for Buffy -- vampire hunter D, 01:15:58 10/18/01 Thu
I've been thinking about what kind of job Buffy could get to support herself. And here's what I came up with:
a) personal trainer: you know, those people at the gym who tell you how to work out. Buffy would be good at his, since we've seen her working out plenty of times.
b)martial arts teacher: This is the one I think she'd be best at. She'd do great teaching classes at some martial arts school. Or maybe teach self defense classes (those would be popular in Sunnydale!)
that's what I've got. Anyone else have any other ideas?
On a minor tangent, I think what she also needs is for Willow and Tara to pitch in. Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong of them to be living off of Buffy's (or rather Joyce's) money? And come to thnk of it, Dawn's old enough to get a part time job too (I say give her something easy, like working at the magic shop).
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[> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- Neaux, 04:35:12 10/18/01 Thu
well Dawn is just now proving to the gang that she can research faster than the rest of the scoobies..
It would probably take more "proving" to justify that she could get a part time job.. (but at least she could be watched by Anya if she did work at the shoppe..) while Buffy got a real job.
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[> How did Buffy get her martial arts skills? -- poppie, 04:47:55 10/18/01 Thu
is it inherent? like with the previous slayers we've seen glimpses of? You've probably all discussed this to death many times... but i'd love to know if it has ever been really satisfactorily explained.. cos it always seemed to me that the strenght, and the agility were her natural gifts, the martial artistry had to be acquired...
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[> [> Re: How did Buffy get her martial arts skills? -- Andy, 06:22:17 10/18/01 Thu
It's never been explicitly explained, IIRC, but from the hints that we've gotten over the years, I believe that it is largely inherent. It seems that the Slayer has a superhuman aptitude for anything that's related to combat, whether it's weapon use, hand-to-hand, or tactics. She does need to train, but I think that's more about honing her natural gifts than actually learning anything new.
Andy
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[> [> [> Re: How did Buffy get her martial arts skills? -- Michael Van Hoek, 06:46:35 10/18/01 Thu
If you saw the movie "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", she was taught by a watcher named Merrick (Donald Sutherland). Since the movie was also produced by Joss Whedon, I would think that explains it.
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[> [> she was trained -- pocky, 07:39:17 10/18/01 Thu
In the movie, Buffy was trained by Merrick. I remember a bunch of scenes in which Merrick was teaching Buffy and drilling her.
Giles also trains/ed Buffy. All throughout the years we see them sparring--often in the library. Giles also introduced different styles of fighting to her as well as different weapons (quarter staff, crossbow, etc.)
~nathan~
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[> [> [> But -- Poppie, 08:30:13 10/18/01 Thu
that would kinda mean Giles would need to be a skilled martial arts fighter in his own right ... and he's so not. he's more of a guide just to make sure she stays focussed and in good condition, I thought.
Not that I'm saying Giles CAN'T fight.. it's just all a bit of a grey area to me.
Nope, never saw the movie, who is this Merrick character, along the same lines what right did HE have to "train" Buffy in martial artistry?
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[> [> [> [> Re: But -- robert, 09:00:38 10/18/01 Thu
"Nope, never saw the movie, who is this Merrick character, along the same lines what right did HE have to "train" Buffy in martial artistry?"
He was her first watcher and therefore bound by duty to train her.
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[> [> [> Re: she was trained -- robert, 08:58:35 10/18/01 Thu
If I remember the movie correctly, Buffy already knew at least some martial arts and acrobatic skills, before Merick met her. Presumably, she received private training paid for by her parents.
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[> [> [> [> Re: she was trained -- anom, 13:58:15 10/19/01 Fri
From what I remember of the movie, her "training" before she was called consisted mostly of cheerleading. The rest was instinctual, as shown when Merrick threw a knife at her & she caught it (& got really pissed off at him for doing it). The implication was that she could do that--without specific training--only because she was the Slayer, which is what Merrick was trying to prove to her by throwing the knife. His further training of her picked up at that point & wasn't only about fighting.
Speaking of the Watcher in the movie, if I remember right, there was only 1 (at least only 1 at a time--no Council as in the series), & he had more than the normal human lifespan & had trained/guided multiple Slayers. He wasn't supposed to get involved in the fighting, but he did (& got killed). Why? Apparently because it was Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: she was trained -- Humanitas, 15:34:51 10/19/01 Fri
She did get training in the film. Lots of those montages shown over a pop music score. Some fun sight gags. And, yes, Merrick sacrifices his life to keep Lothos from killeng Buffy, both in the film (which isn't canon) and in the Graphic Novel (which is).
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[> [> [> Re: she was trained -- Andy, 10:58:57 10/18/01 Thu
"In the movie, Buffy was trained by Merrick. I remember a bunch of scenes in which Merrick was teaching Buffy and drilling her."
Eh, it's been a long time since I've watched the movie all the way through but it isn't exactly canon.
"Giles also trains/ed Buffy. All throughout the years we see them sparring--often in the library. Giles
also introduced different styles of fighting to her as well as different weapons (quarter staff,
crossbow, etc.)"
Except that Buffy usually trounces Giles within 2 seconds of him doing anything like this, which implies that her physical learning isn't largely dependent on anything Giles is doing for her. I think the Watcher's work in the training is to draw out the Slayer from within the girl and then to try and hone that as best he can through encouragement and discipline.
Andy
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[> [> [> [> Re: she was trained -- pocky, 16:02:41 10/18/01 Thu
"I think the Watcher's work in the training is to draw out the Slayer from within the girl and then to try and hone that as best he can through encouragement and discipline."
And I think that this discipline would help the Slayer become proficient in training herself, considering Giles could only do so much in the area.
I also remember an episode in which Angel and Buffy were doing Tai-Chi exercises. And judging from how well they work together, I'm assuming that they've spent some time together training...among other things...
~nathan~
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[> [> Re: How did Buffy get her martial arts skills? -- Isabel, 19:50:42 10/18/01 Thu
While I have no doubts that Buffy could pound any human black belt into the ground, I don't think that she acquired any formalized martial arts knowledge. (Except the tidbits she learned from her watchers and Angel.) She could not walk into a dojo and ask to teach some classes. They would ask her who she had learned from anyway. And the answer, "I'm the descendent of a line of mystical warriors. I woke up six years ago knowing this stuff" would get her asked to leave.
She could teach self defense classes, but to get the largest class possible, and the more $, she'd have to teach at night. She'd do best with a day job.
I'm betting more on waitress or other unskilled labor jobs. She has no work skills as yet.
As always, just my $.02.
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[> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- zilla, 05:25:48 10/18/01 Thu
I think have a point about Willow and Tara. And where was Giles? I think he would have been a better person to take care of Dawn. Willow and Tara understandably stepped in, but didn't Giles have a say? I am starting to get irritated with them anyway...time for a demon to come get them.
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[> [> Re: Giles -- Isabel, 19:34:17 10/18/01 Thu
What makes you think he wasn't part of this plan?
#1 He made no secret of his plans to return to England. Moving in with Dawn would only mean he moved twice in four months as well as ripping apart Dawn's life twice in the same amount of time.
#2 He's a middle-aged single man. If he moved in with "Buffy" and Dawn, every busybody neighbor would draw the skanky conclusion that he and "Buffy" were sleeping together. "And with her young sister in the house too!" How long before Child Protective Services started showing up? Imagine a social worker having one unexpected conversation with the Buffybot.
#3 Dawn ISN'T his legal or moral responsibility. Do you think he'd stay out of jail if Hank Summers ever showed up?
#4 Giles would still need Willow to fix the Buffybot. And it looked like Willow worked on her several times a week.
For MT to stay on the show, Dawn has to stay in Sunnydale. For that Hank had to move to Sunnydale (unlikely), Dawn had to go into foster care (which has its own set of plot headaches) or a believable person had to move in to keep an eye on her and the 'Bot. Since Willow had to spend so much time there anyway working on the 'Bot, her and Tara were believable choices.
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[> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- anom, 22:54:42 10/18/01 Thu
I thought I'd said this before, but I guess that was in Chat. I think Giles ought to kick in something, at least to tide Buffy & Dawn over. You know, maybe out of that *cough*retroactive pay*cough* Buffy got for him from the Council--he owes her.
Who says Willow & Tara are living off Joyce's (nonexistent) money? Willow may still be getting support (financial if not moral) from her parents, & Tara...hey, what was Tara ever living off, considering her family didn't even know where she was? In any case, I don't what they could pitch in from.
As for Buffy, how about bodyguard? Or (as I also said in Chat), she should be on the Sunnydale municipal payroll. Of course the likelihood of that depends on what kind of administration succeeded Mayor Wilkins'....
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[> [> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- amber, 23:13:48 10/18/01 Thu
Hey is it just me or is anyone else wondering where the Watcher's Council is when it comes to Buffy's economic situation.
It's kinda disgusting that they're willing to give Giles his "*cough*retroactive pay*cough*", but they don't provide any financial aid for the slayers. I know it's been hinted at in the past that very few Slayers have survived as long as Buffy, but shouldn't the Watchers have some plan in place?
I know Buffy quit the council back in S3 but with Faith stuck in jail, she's the only one they've got so they might as well start coughing up a salary.
Surely they'd know that a slayer can't maintain a normal life of going to school or having a job. Heck according to Kendra most Watchers discouraged the "normal life". I'm betting a number of Slayers have lost their parents in the line of duty. So how did they survive financially?
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[> [> [> Re: CoW money is tainted -- change, 06:27:28 10/19/01 Fri
I think the CoW would be willing to give Buffy a salary, but it would come with strings attached. Buffy would be working for them. They would try to control her again.
Buffy is staying away from them to maintain her independence.
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[> [> [> [> Doesn't she wear the pants? -- Isabel, 09:52:53 10/20/01 Sat
Didn't Buffy prove to everyone in Checkpoint that The Watcher's Council works for HER? Without a Slayer, they've got very little to do.
The analogy that pops into my head is the CoW is like the Chef at the White House. Presidents come and presidents go and, unless the Chef gets himself fired, he stays. I remember reading about the White House Chef getting huffy when George Bush, Sr. became President and he (George) declared that he was not eating Broccoli ever again and it wasn't to be served. I'm sure the chef calmed down and did what the President wanted because he'd lose his job. What's four years of not cooking broccoli?
Now that they know that the Slayer knows they work to support her, perhaps sending her $20,000 a year is cheap compared to what happens if they piss her off.
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[> [> [> i still say giles should give her some $$ -- anom, 12:57:25 10/22/01 Mon
"It's kinda disgusting that they're willing to give Giles his '*cough*retroactive pay*cough*', but they don't provide any financial aid for the slayers."
Since nobody responded to this part, I want to put it out there again: Giles should help Buffy out with some money, at least until she finds another income source, whether it's the Council or something else. After all, he'd been fired for over a year, right? That retroactive pay must've been a nice lump sum. And she's directly responsible for his getting it. So when I say he owes her, I mean it literally, & he should pay up! If she insists, they could make it a long-term, no-interest loan.
Unless, of course, the Council went back on its word & didn't pay him...wouldn't put it past 'em, at the least they'd probably drag their feet on it, but I think we'd have heard about it if they didn't come through on this.
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[> [> [> [> ah-HAH! toldja so! @>) -- anom, 20:14:57 10/23/01 Tue
see, somebody thought i was right about this! even if nobody backed me up on this board *pout*
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[> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- Eric, 21:40:40 10/20/01 Sat
Jobs for Buffy? The most obvious would have to be law enforcement. I would suggest the county sheriff, since only municipal Sunnydale attracts supernatural corruption. She could get paid for doing the night shift, however she would have to go to the academy. Another option is Private Investigations - a couple subtle hints could help her gain clients with supernatural problems.
She could not make it as a martial arts instructor until she earns teaching credentials in her chosen form. Or she can get a job at the Gap.
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[> [> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- Rattletrap, 04:47:49 10/21/01 Sun
Jobs for Buffy? The most obvious would have to be law enforcement. I would suggest the county sheriff, since only municipal Sunnydale attracts supernatural corruption.
Plus, we already know Buffy likes jelly doughnuts, she has one of the job qualifications down pat.
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[> [> [> Insurance Adjuster -- Cleanthes, 09:47:52 10/21/01 Sun
Law enforcement seems too much like other TV shows, alas.
I think she ought to take on a much less high-profile or glamourous job (in Hollywood's eyes).
As an insurance adjuster, Buffy would get steady income commensurate with her education.
What causes most of the property/casualty claims in Sunnydale? - Exactly - Buffy would have a great investigative tool and an excuse for snooping around trouble areas.
Plus, there'd be the outside company people unable to understand the reason that underwriting expenses are so anomylously high in this one town. The bumbling guy from headquarters could provide valuable extrinsic comic relief, possibly relieving some of the "Friends" syndrome problem mentioned elsewhere on this board.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Insurance Adjuster -- anom, 21:37:52 10/21/01 Sun
"Law enforcement seems too much like other TV shows, alas."
Plus I think Career Day turned her off to it (even more than she was already).
"As an insurance adjuster, Buffy would get steady income commensurate with her education. What causes most of the property/casualty claims in Sunnydale? - Exactly - Buffy would have a great investigative tool and an excuse for snooping around trouble areas."
Hmm...sounds like a good idea, but speaking of her education, does that job require a college degree?
The other possibility that comes to mind is to work for a newspaper, but that's also been done too often--since Superman at least.
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[> Re: Jobs for Buffy -- bible belt, 17:37:24 10/23/01 Tue
Buffy could get a job operating one of those street sweeping machines you see in the middle of the night, sweeping the streets(for reasons I have yet to figure out). She could patrol at the same time.;-D
Cibo Matto? -- Neaux, 08:32:50 10/18/01 Thu
Trying to watch Buffy everyday on FX would drive me crazy... so could you guys enlighten me?
Cibo Matto was performing in the Bronze in one of the early episodes.. Is that correct or was it just one of their songs. I cant remember.. anyway..
I would love to know what episode that was.
I know I'm not making this up.
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[> Buffy Ep Music -- Brian, 08:48:35 10/18/01 Thu
Try http://www.buffymusic.net/
You should be able to find what you are looking for.
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[> [> Re: Buffy Ep Music -- cjc36, 09:21:20 10/18/01 Thu
Second season opener, "When She Was Bad." They played the song Buffy 'sexy dances' with Xander to.
Cool song.
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[> [> [> Re: Buffy Ep Music -- Neaux, 11:18:04 10/18/01 Thu
right.. that's what i thought.. do you know if Sean Lennon was in that show.. He is a sporradic member of the group.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy Ep Music -- Deeva, 12:34:47 10/18/01 Thu
Yes, Sean Lennon was on that episode. A pretty long shot of him, too. I recognized him immediately.
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[> [> Why the hell isn't Christopher Golden the composer anymore? -- AngelVSAngelus, 08:16:53 10/19/01 Fri
What happened to that man? His compositions were brilliant and memorable individually, from Slayer's Elegy (at the end of the Wish) to As Angel Becomes (Becoming pt.1, when Angel's JUST been resouled)
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[> [> [> Re: Why the hell isn't Christopher Golden the composer anymore? -- Rattletrap, 15:14:19 10/19/01 Fri
I think you mean Christophe Beck. Golden is an author that's written several Buffy novels, Chris Beck is the composer. I've wondered the same thing, the man was a phenomenal composer, the soundtracks to "Surprise/Innocence" and "Graduation Day" were both amazing. I believe he came back last year to do "The Gift" and maybe one other episode, and still shows up periodically. I gather he is working on other projects of his own and doesn't want to be tied down on a TV show full time, but that is just speculation. Wanker is a decent composer, but not in the same league.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Beck's filmography -- mm, 16:37:06 10/20/01 Sat
is here.
No, not there! Here.
Only two pix I recognize on that list are "Bring it On" and "Guinevere." I agree with you wholeheartedly on his "Buffy" work. His score for "The Gift" was sublime, the kind of music that enhances the images without overwhelming them. (Ya listening, John Williams? You too, James Horner?)
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[> [> [> [> [> Buffy musically speaking... -- Nina, 19:33:42 10/21/01 Sun
I know I tried to defend Thomas Wanker the best I could last year. I tried to give meaning to his musical themes to satisfy my frustration. But I must say that I have been deeply sadden when I heard the same themes repeated again this year. Same old, same old....all the time. Same fighting themes.... same piano themes that are just so slightely changed that he can't fool my musical ear.
I tried to explain the lack of new themes last year (like we used to have in B,B&B, the Zeppo or so many others...) because they didn't have enough money for the musical department. But they have more money this year...what's the problem?
Maybe for someone who isn't stuck on the music this isn't a big problem, but for me it really ruins the experience now. I try to concentrate on the dialogue and forget that there's any music at all. It is just very difficult because with the syndication I get to listen to wonderful scores all the time. I wish I could still defend Mr. Wanker as I hate to be negative, but until I get to hear new scores on BtVS and not recycled melodies I won't be able to enjoy the stories as much as I'd like to! :(
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy musically speaking... -- Rattletrap, 04:54:52 10/22/01 Mon
For my money, the problem is not the same themes, but the lack of themes at all. Beck's scores had strong melody, a sense of rhythm, and could almost stand on their own as compositions apart from the pictures on the screen. Wanker's compositions don't seem to have any of that, it always seems to me to be just sound behind the action on the screen.
Why Willow needs Buffy -- Brian, 09:22:15 10/18/01 Thu
Willow needs Buffy to validate who she is, and who she is becoming. Buffy was Willow’s first female friend at Sunnydale. They bonded quickly, and appeared to be closer than sisters. This is a natural occurrence given that they are both single children, especially as Willow’s parents appear to be distant and removed from Willow’s everyday life. So Buffy became the cheerleader for her psyche and provided a natural outlet to help her with her fears and needs. Willow has slowly matured with Buffy encouraging her every step of the way until "Willow, you’re my big gun."
When Buffy died, Willow lost her focus, her ability to grow within herself. Tara may be Willow’s love mate, but Buffy is Willow’s soul mate, and Willow was willing to do anything to get her back. The opening scenes of Season 6 demonstrate just how badly they were doing, and how badly they would have done again those Demon Bikers if Buffy had not returned.
Certainly, there will be consequences. Nothing is free in the Buffyverse, except more angst. Willow will suffer, but she will grow. And, in keeping with the theme of this year’s season, she will find a new level of maturity, a new level of personal growth, and a rebonding with Buffy once they reach a mutual level of forgiveness. Each will have to forgive the other for what they have become.
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[> Re: Thank You! -- Lucifer_Sponge, 12:27:11 10/18/01 Thu
This is, in part, exactly what I've been trying to say - that Willow had valid, sincere reasons for bringing Buffy back. It wasn't arrogance, hot-headedness, or an "I can do it, so I will." attitude. It was love.
~Sponge
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[> [> Can I add my 2 cents? -- SBuffy, 13:17:23 10/18/01 Thu
I also think Willow is trying to prove something here. Willow needs to feel powerful like Buffy. And Willow is. But she has not paid the price for some of her mistakes. Buffy has paid for hers and Willows. Willow needs to learn to appreciate her talent and that it will come with a price.
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[> [> [> Re: Can I add my 2 cents? -- DEN, 13:48:29 10/18/01 Thu
And while I accept the "don't mess with the cosmos" wisdom of Tara and Giles, I might point out, as other posters have, that nothing in the Buffyverse suggests the existence of an afterlife that is a place of peace, let alone the beatific vision described in some Christian versions. Willow is like a teenage warior in Belfast, Afghanistan, or a similar part of the world. We accept Buffy's weariness, her thousand-yard stare, in season 5. But Willow's been fighting on the Hellmouth since she was a very young sixteen, and perhaps more than the rest she's been scarred by it. Remember her line in season one: "They took our world and made it theirs!" Is it any wonder that she has trouble reckoning long-term risks? For her, like her real-'verse counterparts, WHAT long-term risks?
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[> Re: Why Willow needs Buffy -- Tillow, 12:31:08 10/18/01 Thu
"Tara may be Willow’s love mate, but Buffy is Willow’s soul mate..."
Is Buffy Willow's soul mate or her crutch? They may have been doing badly without Buffy and they may have a very old and deeply developed friendship, but that doesn't mean she had the right to do what she did.
Rather than forgive each other, I think the real challenge for Willow will be forgiving herself.
parental foreshadowing -- John Burwood, 09:55:49 10/18/01 Thu
'What we once were informs all that we become' said Darla, but it occurs to me that what our parents are, or were, informs - or foreshadows what we become. Joyce showed her innate insecurities in Band Candy, Ted, and Fear Itself, and her fighting courage in School Hard & DMP, plus her rather hit & miss attitude to parental discipline, varying from extreme laxity to OTT gestures - all imitated, even down to copied phrases such as 'that makes it all right, then' by Buffy. The hectoring father of Restless was imitated by son Xander in DMP & Revelations. And Sheila Rosenberg's blinkered know-it-all arrogance, and unwillingness to listen of Gingerbread seems to be foreshadowing her own daughter's state of mind.
Just a thought. Take it and run.
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[> Take it and run is mine! I may bite you, now :) -- Earl Allison, 10:18:52 10/18/01 Thu
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[> [> Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! (NT) -- John Burwood, 11:45:21 10/18/01 Thu
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[> [> [> S'okay -- that's why the smile :) No worries (but I may still bite you -- very hungry) -- Earl Allison, 02:08:09 10/19/01 Fri
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[> Re: parental foreshadowing -- Whisper2AScream, 11:22:42 10/18/01 Thu
I've mentioned this elsewhere, particularly in reference to Xander. He's also acted like his father in getting angry and wanting to take it out on something in the Body. I'll bet there's patched up holes at the Harris household, courtesy of Mr. Harris's fists. (Major reason why he's holding off on the wedding bells for him and Anya. He's afraid alright, afraid that he'll abuse and fight her like his father has with his mother.) Biggest fear for parents is that their children won't learn from the parent's mistakes, and that the children won't do better then their predecessors. And children's biggest fear is that they'll wind up just like their parents.
Interesting note with Buffy and her parents, including her surrogate father, Giles. His own rebellious nature likewise echoes Buffy's. And his need to take on responsibility, again like Buffy has done ever since she began as a Slayer. No wonder he and Joyce got along so well. (Especially in Band Candy. I did an analysis of the main adults affected in this ep. Like the fact Buffy and Joyce both are typically attracted to attractive and potentially dangerous bad-boys. One wonders what Hank was like when Joyce met him.)
Willow, Phoenix of X-Men, and the responsibility of power *spoilerish* -- Sebastian, 11:08:47 10/18/01 Thu
Hi all.
Feel free to knock me on my butt of I'm being redundant and/or illogical.
When I read the review for the season opener of BTVS, in describing the opening sequence where Willow uses the telepathy spell to command the Scooby Gang, Entertainment Weekly made a comparison between Willow and Jean Grey of X-Men fame.
PART ONE:
Wolverine: You have to play by the rules!"
Phoenix: "Phoenix makes her own!"
That got me to thinking of a very famous comic book story arc that focused on Jean Grey known as the "Dark Phoenix Saga."
I know Joss is a comic reader - and this struck a chord because of the finale parallels of Dawn/Spike in "The Gift" and Rogue/Wolverine of "X-Men: The Movie" (which Joss had a hand in writing).
In the story, Jean Grey had recently experience a dramatic upswing in her power levels. Originally a telepath/telekinetic, her powers had evolved to the point of god levels - where she could but think - and her thought would become reality.
For a time, Jean subconsciously places "psychic circuit breakers" to keep her powers to a level she can handle safely.
For reasons related to the story, those circuit breakers are destroyed one by one - and she once again undergoes a surge in power levels.
PART TWO:
Power: The Ultimate Orgasm
Her mentor, Professor Xavier, realizes that her power has reached a level that she can no longer control. And soon afterwards, her powers do overwhelm her sense of self. The use of her powers acts as the "ultimate emotional/physical stimulant." The more she uses them - the better she feels. And the more she uses it - the stronger she grows.
Like permanent euphoria. The ultimate orgasm, as it were.
Anyway, filled with delusions of grandeur, she allows herself to be overwhelmed by her powers and eventually destroys an inhabited planet.
PART THREE:
"Don't piss me off." = "We are now equals."
Now....
I certainly don't think our favorite redhead is going to decimate a planet - but the similarities are striking. Willow is undergoing tremendous surges in power. She is clearly getting off on it. She enjoys it. Her threat to Giles shows she no longer views him as a superior. She views him as an equal. She doesn’t feel like getting lectured by someone she now is on the same level with. You can see how Tara now uses diffidence, rather than direct confrontation, to question Willow.
Now the reason I'm theorizing this is that I don't think Willow is going the way of the "Big Bad." I think her struggle is going to be dealing with the very adult responsibility of having power. She’s going to have to learn that she can't abuse it as her leisure.
Willow's character is very much in a gray area right now. Phoenix was not necessarily evil when presented in the comic. Although misguided, delusional and insane - she was presented more as a creature that was corrupted and influence by her powers. She did not commit evil for evil sakes. She committed evil (or in Willow's case, questionable) acts because she was too certain of her powers and what she *could* do - in opposition to what she *should* do.
PART FOUR:
What does this mean?
Phoenix is not swayed by the enticement of evil. She is swayed by the enticement of what she can DO. She sees no limits in terms of what she can do with her spellcasting – which lies the danger. She’s ambitious and reckless – a dangerous combination to have when you have power at your disposal.
I don't think Willow is going to become evil, but I do think she is going to become corrupted by her power. And when I say "corrupt", I mean she is goingt o let her power levels, rather than her moral compass, dictate her actions. In which, people are going to get hurt. Firstly, herself, secondly the Scoobies (be it physical harm or emotional betrayal; i.e.: Tara)
Its clear Willow feels she should not be questioned about the use of her powers - which lies the entire focus of her storyline. Willow is going to have to learn a VERY hard lesson that "power and responsibility" are not ideas hat can be separate.
Opinions?
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[> I agree -- Boxdman, 11:24:39 10/18/01 Thu
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[> Re: Willow, Phoenix of X-Men, and the responsibility of power *spoilerish* -- vampire hunter D, 11:29:36 10/18/01 Thu
I like your take on the situation. Most of us have been so into the Willow-turns-evil theory that we never thought of it in terms of learning responsibility. Of course, with either senario, someone is probably going to get seriously hurt before Willow gets a clue and cleans up her act.
But now I have to ask why the rest of us are so into Willow turning evil or being the Big Bad. Is it because we all want to see her in that black leather bodysuit again? Is it that we've enjoyed the other storylines where a member of the groups turns bad (ala Angelus or Faith)?
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[> [> With great power comes great responsibility. -- Ryuei, 11:44:58 10/18/01 Thu
Also recall the Spiderman reference at the beginning of Flooded. I think that was another tip-off, because one of the themes of Spiderman going back to his first appearance is that "With great power comes great responsibility." I think Joss even mentioned that line in an interview once.
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[> [> [> I totally agree with you. -- Richardqwerty, 13:23:12 10/18/01 Thu
Let's just see who will play uncle Ben.
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[> [> [> Re: With great power comes great responsibility. -- DEN, 13:29:44 10/18/01 Thu
I really like the "responsibility" idea, and I too am surprised at the "rush to judgment" on "Willow as evil." Her use of extreme magic has AS A RULE been motivated by the direst imperatives, or from love (Tara/Buffy). She breaks off the Oz/Veruca spell of her own volition. Her pleasure at her success at bringing Buffy back, her wish to be thanked and praised, may irritate us, but is consistent for a character that, as an earlier post in this thread notes,at bottom lacks confidence, and is correspondingly externally defined and other-directed. Besides, Willow is no fool. She KNOWS, better than anyone exept Giles, what risks she took. Her bubbly pleasure at surviving them, and apparently triumphing, is a sign less of malice than immaturity.
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[> [> [> [> Re: With great power comes great responsibility. -- maddog, 20:03:42 10/18/01 Thu
I don't think anyone doubts her motives...right now they are pure...but continued use of black magic could cause serious problems...as it is it already has her lieing to them. Not a good start. So I think where people fault Willow as "evil" is more of a projection...what she COULD become if things don't change.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: With great power comes great responsibility. -- Dedalus, 15:41:06 10/19/01 Fri
I for one absolutely doubt her motives. Hearing spoilers about what is to come makes me doubt them even more.
I don't think she was that desperate to bring Buffy back anymore. She was showing off. I literally think that. "You should have seen me, I was amazing." I mean, she didn't seem that concerned when Buffy came back. Unlike Xander, she physically turned her back on her. All she wanted was the attention and to be rewarded for what she had done. She went against Buffy's last wishes, she stole the Gift, lied to her friends, killed Bambi, and now she's threatened Giles. This is Willow, but not the one we know and love.
I just see someone being subverted. She has been hyper ever since it happened. I don't think she's just trying to build her confidence or handle responsibility. She seemed pretty damn sure of herself to me. She's put Buffy through hell, and if she was the person she used to be, she would know that. Instead, she's running around threatening people and talking about how powerful she is.
It may be projection, but Flooded was the last straw for me.
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[> [> Re: Willow, Phoenix of X-Men, and the responsibility of power *spoilerish* -- maddog, 19:57:50 10/18/01 Thu
I think the reason people see Willow becoming a possible problem(maybe leading into the big bad role) is not just the fact that she's going to have to deal with the responsibilities and eventually the consequences of what she's done, but also the way in which others will react and be affected by her growth and understanding. Willow's not just going to wake up one day and realize she stepped over the line. Joss doesn't write things that way. She will have to learn a lesson...and it's entirely possible people will get hurt...and people that do get hurt don't always forgive so quickly. It'll be that strain that could push her to do something harsh...or maybe even pull an even bigger stunt that ressurecting Buffy(what could be bigger? Only Joss knows) and making all of their lives ten times worse. So I suppose she could, through specific circumstances either become the big bad or have some hand in finding/creating/bringing out the big bad. You see my point?
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[> Or, to mis-quote "Heathers"... -- Humanitas, 14:24:00 10/18/01 Thu
"Why are you such a mega-witch?"
"Because I can be."
;)
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[> Big Bad? -- darrenK, 06:02:40 10/19/01 Fri
I agree with you on Willow and Dark Phoenix, but I don't think she has to become evil ala Angelus to be the Big Bad.
She only needs to be so out of control that her power threatens Sunnydale or the world.
Minor *spoiler* coming....
Marti Noxon said in an interview that regarding the Big Bad they're doing something different this year, so it might be an out-of-control Willow.
It's also an off-year. Last year, they did an end-of-the-world, but season 4 ended with Restless. Maybe, we're in for a softer landing this year.
Just an opinion...dK
Why aren't the SG more paranoid? -- Lucifer_Sponge, 12:19:47 10/18/01 Thu
I've been meaning to post something like this for a while, but I've only now gotten the time and inspiration to do it. I've been wondering about this since around the third season, and lately, it's really getting to me.
Why aren't the SG more paranoid? They live in Sunnydale for Christ's sake.
If you lived in a town where vampires and demons ran rampant, wouldn't you be just a little more skittish? Wouldn't you be prone to jump at loud noises and lose large amounts of sleep because you stay up all night wondering if all those creeks and bumbs are really just the house settling? I know I would.
And yet, look at Buffy, Willow, Xander, Tara, Anya, and Dawn.
In Bargaining, Giles leaves Sunnydale. He leaves Sunnydale. He leaves his friends and loved ones... his family alone, without a slayer, in a vertable demonic war-zone. His advice? "Be careful."
WHAT? Be careful?. If I were there, I would have protested. "Oh. Ok, Giles. We'll be careful. I'm sure we'll do just fine without a Slayer and a human demon-dictionary to help us both identify and fight the forces of evil. Yeah. We'll be ok. Don't you worry about us."
In Bargaining, Dawn whines about how Spike always insists on keeping watch over her, wishing she were allowed to stay home alone. Umm... What? Out of all of them, Dawn's the most helpless and vulnerable. If you were her, would you really want to stay at home, alone, in the middle of a town that happens to be a concentrated focus of mystical forces?
In Afterlife, Anya goes out on her own, in the middle of the night, through the streets of Sunnydale, with an interdimensional spectre on the loose and out to get them, to get coffee. Now, that alone leaves me confused, but the fact that everyone let her is even more baffling. "Hey, Anya, you wanna go get us some coffee? Oh, and uh, mind the psychotic ghost-demon while you're at it."
What really bugs me is that aside from Buffy, Spike, Willow, Tara, and to some extent Giles, none of them have any real way to defend themselves. Oh, ok, Anya can hit things with frying pans or baseball bats, and Dawn can scream really loud. Xander has some base-level fighting skills, but none of them have recieved any real training.
Why doesn't Anya take up magic? We all know she'd love to have some sort of powers again. And why can't Dawn do research and practice witchcraft? It'd only increase her chances of survival. Why won't Giles or Buffy give them all some martial arts training or something? It just seems so odd.
Just something to think about...
~Sponge
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[> Why the SG aren't more paranoid -- vampire hunter D, 12:42:27 10/18/01 Thu
Because they've lived there long enough to know what to look out for and avoid danger. I liken Sunnydale's demon problem to an inner city crime problem. It's not as bad as it looks. People from outside the inner cities are afraid to go there bcause whenever they hear anything about those places, it's always some report on a crime there. So they assume that the inner city is dangeraus with a crime going on all the time. But people who live there are not afraid (they are careful, but not paranoid) because they know that the problem isn't as bad as outsiders percieve, and they know how to take care of themselves.
Same is true of Sunnydale. All we see are the gang fighting demons, but that's because we are only shown the gang during demon fights (really, would you want to watch an episode where nothing happened during a patrol so everyone went home and wathced TV?) In reality, the demon fights probably don't take place that often, and even when a demon or vamp does show up, the gang is more than capable of handling it.
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[> [> Excellent points vhD -- Liquidram, 12:44:23 10/18/01 Thu
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[> [> Re: Why the SG aren't more paranoid -- kostadis roussos, 13:25:58 10/18/01 Thu
Hi!
I call it the "SCIFI license".
In the SCI Fi license, when the heroes land on the planet, the ancient monument is there.
This is kind of like how no vampire has resorted to using an AK 47 on the summer household, hired a hitman to kill buffy with a telescopic sniper rifle, used poisonous gas when fighting the slayer, etc, etc, etc.
It would make the show a lot less interesting if buffy had to run around in full high-tech weapons gear. Turning into a bond-esque high tech gadget fest.
So the vampires only appear when it makes sense for the plot, which is not about killing vampires, but about growing up with responsibilities, war, death, love, friendship, and the nature of existence.
So we never ask the obvious question:
Why did Trick when Kakistos was fighting Buffy and Faith not pull a machine gun and just start firing at random.
cheers,
kostadis
p.s. I mean this is a show that could have Hong-Style action sequences but would that make the show any better?
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[> [> [> Faerie fear of iron/human fear of modern war -- Cleanthes, 13:41:58 10/18/01 Thu
There's absolutely no evidence for this, but, well, the old notion that supernatural beings don't like iron would explain a lot of the non-use of technology by demons.
Of possible greater importance is Hollywood's inability to deal with "The Great War and Modern Memory". Machine guns destroyed, pretty much, the ability to show war and warriors in anything but ironic forms. So, we have pistol packing heroes defeating the bad guys with heavy weapons. (lame) Or, much better, an actual forray into an ironic space of myth and slayage, where the ironic overlay of an intentionally distancing (Verfremdungseffekt)title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" applies. She ain't: Buffy the B-2 bomber girl dropping laser-guided munitions. That'd not be such a fun show, I don't think.
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[> [> [> Re: Whoa, misinterpreting the question there -- Lucifer_Sponge, 15:00:14 10/18/01 Thu
Obviously it would make the show less interesting. That's a given. I'm NOT suggesting they should change anything on the show. I was looking at it from a different angle... In reality, wouldn't they be more skittish and generally freaked out? Wouldn't they be taking more precautions?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Whoa, misinterpreting the question there -- kostadis roussos, 17:19:11 10/18/01 Thu
Hi!
I guess I was suggesting that thinking about the reality of the paranoia would lead you to think about a whole host of other problems.
That's all.
cheers,
kostadis
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[> [> [> [> Re: Whoa, misinterpreting the question there -- RabidHarpy, 09:04:40 10/19/01 Fri
I understand what you're getting at - if I lived in Sunnydale, I'd be the first one lined up to pay Buffy for self-defence lessons! Not only that, but I would spend most of my time alert to the presence of evil, (ie. locked doors, handy weapons, education on the supernatural, etc.) I would also try to befriend Buffy and the gang - since they have the "ins" and all on this sort of activity - and try to become a useful part of her evil-fighting team. Safety in numbers, my friends...
Better safe than sorry.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Forwarned is forearmed.
The best way to defeat your enemy, is to know your enemy.
Especially characters like Anya (who HAD powers before) - I would want to build up some sort of defence so that I wouldn't feel so vulnerable. The same goes with Xander - there's no point in remaining the "helpless-prankster" - it just makes you a lighter "snack"!
:)
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[> [> [> [> [> well, the waiting list for self-defense lessons in sunnydale is probably years long -- anom, 18:03:57 10/20/01 Sat
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[> [> [> Re: Why the SG aren't more paranoid -- gds, 16:04:19 10/18/01 Thu
no vampire has resorted to using an AK 47 on the summer household, hired a hitman to kill buffy with a telescopic sniper rifle
Actually they have (Homecoming). In fact she and Faith (but they actually went after Cordelia) were the prey in a hunt by assassins.
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[> Because if they were more paranoid they'd go insane -- Charlemagne20, 13:00:05 10/18/01 Thu
I mean seriously...
What's the alternative, stay at home with the flashlight on?
So they pretend it's no big deal.
It's a survival mechanism like forgetting was in Season 1
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[> [> Re: Because if they were more paranoid they'd go insane -- SBuffy, 13:06:34 10/18/01 Thu
Caue they are all so secure in the knowledge they will be saved by another of the SC. it has happened time and time again. They may be freaked from time to time. But they seem to feel pretty confinet someone will be there in times of danger.
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[> *cough* are we forgetting that we're talking about kids? -- Solitude1056, 17:30:32 10/18/01 Thu
The sense of invulnerability, the idea that "I'll live forever" even when this concept has been smashed in their face time and again, and all other grandiose notions that flit through the head of every average mid-teens to early twenties person? I spent those years on the streets in DC when it was the "murder capital of the world," and you never saw any of us thinking, gee, there were three murders here yesterday, we should be all skittish. Nope, despite going to funerals, we still never thought it could happen to us.
And until Buffy died, the SG could still think that. And in some ways, they still can. Joyce died because of a tumor; Buffy died because she was busy being the Slayer. As none of them are the Slayer, there's probably a small unconcious thought hanging out in their heads that says, "it won't happen to me, cause I'm not the Slayer." That something - the Slayer - stood between them and madness. And now that I think about it, I wonder if that was part of the reason they were so adamant that they couldn't defend Sunnydale properly, on their own. Because to do so would be to admit that they, themselves, might suffer the same fate.
Uh, on the other hand, I dunno. ;-)
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[> [> Re: *cough* are we forgetting that we're talking about kids? -- DEN, 19:53:09 10/18/01 Thu
That sense of invulnerability--"it will be someone else who gets it"--is even more common to soldiers, combat pilots, and people in similar long-term high-risk situations of the kind the Scoobies face. Sooner or later, it erodes, and when it does some kind of collapse often follows.
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[> Re: Why aren't the SG more paranoid? -- cjc36, 05:21:53 10/19/01 Fri
I had asked a related question years ago in regard to The X-Files: why didn't Mulder and Scully act a bit more--okay, not freaked out, but a bit more careful: secret codes, meeting places, listening device scans, as matter of daily habit. The mean-o'le Smoking Man was after them, and one can never be too careful. I guess why Files *didn't* show any of the above was that it would change the characters in ways that would get in the way of the fans identifying with them. Same could be said of the Scoobies. If each of them could really take care of themselves, then wouldn't Buffy's importance be diminished? I don't know the answer to that myself, but, especially with Xander, there needs to be characters who have no special powers but good heart, people who are proxies for us.
A silly Buffy poem for the Midnight Hour -- Brian, 20:07:08 10/18/01 Thu
Buffy awakes with a feeling of fright,
But her world is peaceful, white.
There are no vamps to slay;
No Demons to filet.
Bad people are banished, gone.
Her heart murmurs with forgotten song.
She may be alone, an army of one,
But she knows now her battle is done.
Time to meditate and quietly sit,
"Why this is Heaven, I’m finally out of it."
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[> Re: A silly Buffy poem for the Midnight Hour -- Javoher, 21:14:13 10/18/01 Thu
Lovely. Thank you, I like it very much.
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[> soon to be immortalized at Fictionary Corner -- Liq, 21:40:28 10/18/01 Thu
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[> Thanks.....:):) -- Rufus, 00:03:48 10/19/01 Fri
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[> Yea! More poetry! :) -- Humanitas, 05:42:24 10/19/01 Fri
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[> Thanks, Brian...kinda sad... :o( -- Wisewoman, 08:47:07 10/19/01 Fri
...but "demons to filet" was funny!
Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Whisper2AScream, 07:51:58 10/19/01 Fri
Was just thinking about the Inept trio of bad guys-wannabes, and then remembering sometime AI sponser, David Nabbit.
Kind of see Jonathan, Warren, and Andrew as the opposing version of Nabbit. Nabbit's this geeky good-guy wannabe, and they're geeky bad-guy wannabes. One wants to role-play a Lawful good fighter, and the three want to be chaotic evil mages/fighters, to use DnD references (the main thing that links them.)
Comments?
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[> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Brian, 08:26:52 10/19/01 Fri
Just another example of how each series continues to parallel each other in their story lines.
I just realized that the minute Angel hears about Buffy, he is out the door, and the same with Buffy. Cool!
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[> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Neaux, 08:41:31 10/19/01 Fri
speaking of D&D (Not that I play) Were they playing D&D? .. that board game thingy..
it looked like this crappy board game Hero's Quest that came out about 10 years ago.
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[> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Lunarchickk, 10:12:17 10/19/01 Fri
According to the shooting script, they were playing Dungeons & Dragons... But I was wondering what they were playing too. (It was just such a necessity for them to be playing D&D in that scene!)
Then I remembered... recently there was a version of D&D put out with an actual board to play on... trying to make it more accessible than graph paper and character sheets, I guess. That must've been the version they were playing in the flashback.
(And no, I don't play D&D either! Anymore. ;) It's been almost 10 years! I've recovered!)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Neaux, 11:17:02 10/19/01 Fri
that's what i thought.. cuz I only remember the paper and graph stuff too
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[> [> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Shaglio, 12:41:20 10/19/01 Fri
Yes that was D&D. As soon as I saw it, I recognized it as the dungeon map from the D&D 3rd Edition Adventure Game. The other side is a blank grid and it comes with 1 inch diameter discs with characters and mosters on them. (And, yes, I do play D&D. Just started a few months ago). When I saw that scene, I thought, "Hey! I play D&D and I'm not a patheic dork like them!" I guess it's all in who you play with.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Isabel, 10:42:48 10/20/01 Sat
I'm a D&D player too. When I saw the Evil Wannabees playing with the prefab board and actual figurines, I thought they HAD to be new at it, or were very stupid with no imagination. (Plus, I was a little disgusted at the writers going for the obvious 'losers playing D&D' gag.) If you had any experience (or brains) you know that a board is more trouble than it's worth. It limits the scope of the imagination.
Plus our group is cool too. We'd never want to take over the world. We're too smart to want it.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Malandanza, 09:15:46 10/21/01 Sun
"I'm a D&D player too. When I saw the Evil Wannabees playing with the prefab board and actual figurines, I thought they HAD to be new at it, or were very stupid with no imagination. (Plus, I was a little disgusted at the writers going for the obvious 'losers playing D&D' gag.) If you had any experience (or brains) you know that a board is more trouble than it's worth. It limits the scope of the imagination."
I was an avid AD&Der when I was younger (teen-age through mid twenties) but gradually became disenchanted with the system as they changed the rules and made it PC (no demons and devils). I've played many other RPG over the years, but for simplicity and playability, AD&D was always the best. I know nothing about the "prefab board" or miniatures, but it doesn't bother me -- at some point, you end up fighting and have to break out the figures (our group usually used chess pieces to represent characters, but periodically, we'd get a group member that went overboard and bought and painted his own miniature). It's still mostly a pencil, paper and imagination game.
If all Joss & Co. are using D&D for is a one-time gag, I'll be a bit disappointed. Gaming encourages social activity of just the sort Jonathan needed. In the early days of AD&D, there were wild claims that gaming led to suicide -- in spite of Gary Gygax pointing out that gamers had significantly lower (1%) of the suicide rate as non-gamers precisely because the gamers are part of society (or a small segment of it, anyway). Hopefully, someone on the writing staff has played before (it seems unlikey since Tucker's brother made the comment about staying up late; all hard-core role-players have experienced all-night and into the next day gaming sessions)-- it is a rich area for parody (and jokes that only former role-players would get). The choice of characters for the Troika alone would be funny. (And who's the Dungeon Master? My guess is Tucker's brother...) Plus, all kinds of fun with lucky dice!
And if they really do hypnotize Buffy, maybe they'll make her play a game with them.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The way to stay sane and avoid disenchantment... -- Isabel, 21:48:24 10/21/01 Sun
is to ignore the PC rules that don't match your characters' world. It is very money making oriented these days, what with being 'acquired' by Wizards of the Coast, the Magic the Gathering people. (And that God-Awful movie they put out...)
When 3rd ed. came out we groaned and bought it and spent the next 3 months 'negotiating' the old rules we'd be keeping with the group.
Parody would be good. I love the Foxtrot D&D cartoons. ;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Whisper2AScream, 12:26:54 10/22/01 Mon
I'm wondering if they included as a little dig to us posters who role-play Buffy RPG's in online campaigns. Not that I'd know anything about that... ;) Only GM and play in um, well, several. I bet Joss and some of the other writers were probably hard-core players and DM/GM (aka God) back in the day. Looking forward to Knights of the Dinner Table-style in-jokes.
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[> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Shaglio, 12:43:45 10/19/01 Fri
"I just realized that the minute Angel hears about Buffy, he is out the door, and the same with Buffy. Cool!"
I find that cool as well, since (I think) the season premier of Buffy was delayed and I don't remember the season premier of Angel being delayed.
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[> [> [> Sneaky Episode Timing. -- Humanitas, 13:30:18 10/19/01 Fri
The timing is kinda neat. AtS premiered the week before BtVS, but the BtVS premiere was two hours, and technically counts as two episodes. Further, the start of Buffy 6.3 follows the end of 6.2 by a matter of minutes. So the series are at the same point in their seasons, and Buffy was reborn sometime around the same time of That Old Gang of Mine.
Xander: You have too many thoughts.
- Lie to Me,
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[> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- purplegrrl, 14:38:44 10/19/01 Fri
I just thought it was wacky fun that previous seasons' "bad guys" show up again to torment our Slayer!!
:-)
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[> [> Re: Wannabe's in the Buffy/Angelverse (Flooded spoilers) -- Cynthia, 15:31:50 10/19/01 Fri
I thought it was also poking fun at all the "extreme" fans in fandom (name your favorite here). I'm sure both the writing staff and the stars have run into these types of people. You know, the ones that relate their whole lives on how it relates to a non-fiction reality.
Also, it is being used as a contrast to how the Scoobies are facing adulthood, adebt reluctently, while the Troika aren't.
Vampires on the message board? -- RabidHarpy, 09:27:35 10/19/01 Fri
I just noticed that every time I come on the board, (during the day), I spend most of my time catching up on the flood of responses from the evening before. It looks as if most people on the board are nocturnal and only come out to post at night!
Speaking of which, (not witch!) - anyone out there into Goth/Vampyre roleplaying/cultisms? Just curious...
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[> Just...um...time zones (yeah, right!) ;o[ -- Wisewoman, 09:41:54 10/19/01 Fri
Nope, no, uh-uh, no vampires here!
Some people in UK and Europe tho' and lots on the East Coast and MidWest, even though the time zone of the Board is Pacific Time. It's pretty much going 24/7!
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[> [> I don't know about that .... -- Liq, 13:05:08 10/19/01 Fri
I think Sully's a vamp.... ;[
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[> [> [> Re: Y'know, you could be right! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 18:36:06 10/19/01 Fri
Sully's pretty cool...the strong, silent type, LOL.
If it's not short for sullen, then maybe it's a reference to sullying things? Like reputations? Hmmmmm...
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[> [> [> [> nah, I'm sure it's something else :[ -- SJM, 19:50:16 10/19/01 Fri
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[> Re: Vampires on the message board? -- Ryuei, 10:27:46 10/19/01 Fri
I'm a big fan of the White Wolf games, not that I ever get to play them anymore. Job, family, and temple tends to push out such extracurriculars. I have toyed around with the idea of running a play-by-mail game though but again time constraints...
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[> [> You mentioned... -- RabidHarpy, 10:45:07 10/19/01 Fri
... that you go to "temple" - what "religion" are you, if you don't mind my asking, and do you find that BtVS conflicts with any of your beliefs, or the theology of your particular faith?
Just curious...
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[> [> [> Re: You mentioned... -- Ryuei, 14:40:12 10/19/01 Fri
I am a priest in the Nichiren Shu (Shu means school). It is a form of Japanese Mahayana Buddhism. The official website of the Nichiren Shu is www.nichiren-shu.org.
I have a page of articles that a friend set up for me - that can be found at www.crosswinds.net/~campross/Ryuei/index.html
As for whether B:tVS conflicts with my faith, the first thing I have to say is that it is just a t.v. show and anyone who gets worked up about whether a t.v. show or any other form of fantasy or science fiction conflicts with their faith should get a life and/or have their head examined in my opinion. It a little thing called distinguishing between fantasy and reality.
Having said that, however, I will say that many times I have argued that the cosmology of the Jossverse does have many compatibilities and even precursors in the worldview of pre-modern Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. Like the Jossverse, the worldview of East Asian Buddhism is full of ghosts, demons, shapeshifters, gods, and various other beings. There are also many heavens and many hells. There is a celestial beauracracy that mirrors the earthly one (TPTB?). There are many cases of pious "demons" who work for the forces of good or who become human. Read the translation of the story of the monkey king by Arthur Waley entitled "Monkey" and you will see how the folklore of pre-modern Chinese Buddhism is a kind of precursor for what we are seeing in Buffy and Angel. Oh - and if you live near a video store with Asian movies then rent Green Snake with English subtitles. I highly recommend it.
I guess I should also say, that the worldview of Chinese and Japanese Buddhism was as much a product of those cultures as it was of anything authentically Buddhist and not always in line with the Buddhist sutras themselves. But the end result (the popular Buddhism of fiction and peasant piety and superstition) is certainly entertaining if not always edifying or in keeping with authentic Buddha Dharma.
Something I noticed in "Halloween" -- Rob, 09:34:37 10/19/01 Fri
Just rewatched "Halloween" on FX the other night, and I noticed something I thought was pretty funny foreshadowing. When Willow and Buffy were discussing why they shouldn't sneak into Giles' office and take the Watcher Diaries, Buffy's final answer was a cute little "Because it's wrong" which sounded exactly like how Faith said that when she was in Buffy's body! Just thought that was amusing...
Rob
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[> Re: Something I noticed in "Halloween" -- Cleanthes, 10:01:23 10/19/01 Fri
That's a reference by the old fogies writing this show to the Nixon tapes.
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[> also... -- Liq, 13:00:46 10/19/01 Fri
When Willow, as the ghost, was getting all bossy, Cordelia snaps "Who died and made you boss?"
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[> [> Re: also... -- Rob, 14:07:54 10/19/01 Fri
I noticed that too!
Witchcraft and Mothers -- Charlemagne20, 10:46:43 10/19/01 Fri
Willow's mom is a psychologist type who seems completely unable to relate to her daughter on any concievable level whatsoever....ironic. Also she seems so self absorbed that she doesn't even notice Willow is even there.
Tara's mom was Crazy and suicidal with her family life very questionable indeed and something happened to her that led to her untimely death.
Amy's mother was crazy and stole her body.
I doubt Anya and Michael's parents were all too sane either.
What's up with the whole "bad mother" homelife thing going on here?
Actually in general what is with Joss and Family in general?
-Charlie
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[> Re: Witchcraft and Mothers -- Neaux, 11:32:23 10/19/01 Fri
well.. i would say as diverse as the scoobie gang in terms of Species (not race.. dont' get me on that Friends Tangent)
I'd say the group is a family in itself.. and maybe that's more of the point Joss is trying to make.
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[> Was Tara's mom crazy? -- vampire hunter D, 14:00:13 10/19/01 Fri
All that we know about her is that she was a whitch and that she's dead.
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[> Joss and family -- Traveler, 19:07:57 10/19/01 Fri
"Actually in general what is with Joss and Family in general?"
If I had a dollar for every person who has asked that question...
I have read in interviews that Joss does base some of the ideas/themes in the series from his own life. So, it seems likely that he has had poor relationships with his own family in the past. Also, there does seem to be a running theme which suggests that family is about more than blood relationships.
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[> I'd say that's a radical interpretation of the text... -- Solitude1056, 21:43:50 10/19/01 Fri
This has been bothering me:
Tara's mom was Crazy and suicidal with her family life very questionable indeed and something happened to her that led to her untimely death.
I don't recall Tara mentioning her mother was crazy or suicidal. The first mention of Tara's mother comes at the end of Hush, when Tara and Willow are talking about moving the soda machine together. She tells Willow, that "[I've always been practicing,] I mean, since I was little... My mom used to... she had a lot of power." The next mention of Tara's family comes when she tries to give Willow a doll's-eye crystal, in The I in Team. She tells Willow, "It was my grandma's, I think. Found it a long time ago in my attic."
It's not until Family that we hear any more about Tara or her family. The first piece of news is that Tara was shy to a crippling degree for the majority of her childhood, which comes as no surprise as the details of her family's attitudes unfold through the episode. Later in the episode, her father implies that the family allowed Tara to attend an out-of-state college, with the hopes that "if we let you go you'd get [witchcraft] out of your system." He then gets to the reason for the family's visit to Sunnydale: "You're turning twenty. The same age your mother was when..." but he doesn't finish the sentence.
His statements later in the scene are blunt and crystallize the family dynamics quite succinctly. He reminds Tara, "you can't control what's going to happen. You're my daughter and I love you but you are a demon. You have evil inside you and it will come out." In the episode's final scene, Mr. Maclay explains to Buffy and the rest of the Scoobies, "The women in our family have... demon in them. [Tara's] mother had it; it's where the magic comes from."
As we all know, Spike's quick thinking saves the day and reveals Tara to be fully human; for the best in-dept discussion on this, go look up the character analysis on Tara. But there's no mention of Tara's mother again, until The Body. During her talk with Buffy, while the others are getting snacks, Tara remains reticent on the specific details, allowing only that her mother died when Tara was seventeen, and implying that it was after a long illness. Tara never makes any statements that her mother was crazy, however she describes her own behavior (after her mother's death) as rebellious, confused, and having a certain streak of self-loathing or vague guilt. She refers to this behavior again in Intervention, but as far as the text describes, never refers to her mother as crazy - only to her behavior in trying to deal with her mother's death.
At the same time, we have the earlier implications (from Season 4) that Tara's mother was a powerful witch for the better part of Tara's lifetime, despite the family's insistence that this power was demonic. Tara's given no indication that her mother was necessarily crazy, although if her mother felt trapped in a crazy situation that's an entirely different - and understandable - matter. Additionally, after the revelations of Family, I'd surmise that any significant illness Mrs. Maclay suffered may have only served to further drain her, and she was possibly already beaten down emotionally by the family before she even became ill. In that sort of situation, I wouldn't consider the person suicidal so much as just plain having nothing left with which to fight, and as many doctors will attest, a person's willingess to fight for their life can make all the difference to their survival.
In fact, I'd put Tara's mother in the same class as Joyce, in some ways. A little bewildered by circumstances, but trying to do the best by her daughter (such as teaching her about magick, encouraging her in small ways), but in the end, helpless against the forces arranged against her. (And I draw that comparison based on the excellent theories suggested by the character analysis on Joyce, which I also recommend.)
So in sum, I don't agree with the idea that Tara's mother represents yet another parent-gone-bad, but instead stands as a warning of what can happen when one allows others to limit oneself without quarter. Any impression that Tara's mother was imbalanced to any degree, to me, seems more due to Tara's confusion afterwards, and the tearing of her loyalty between a mother she loved and a family that was (perhaps) claiming that this was the just end for a demon. The fact that Tara's family claims things to be a certain way - when their agenda has been shown to be self-serving and destructive - should raise serious doubts as to the veracity of any other conclusions about their statements. The Maclay family agenda should also be kept in mind while considering Tara's resulting pain after her mother's death, with human intuition giving credence to the notion that Tara's vague guilt stems from their warped attitudes rather than from her mother's actions or mental state.
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[> [> Re: minor correction ... -- Shiver, 09:43:36 10/20/01 Sat
I don't think Tara ever specifically said her mom died of an illness ... she commented on "suddenness" but never gave any specifics as to how her mother died.
Joss could still give us a shocker on that, it could be that her mom died as a result of a spell gone wrong - which is what has given Tara her strong sense of magical ethics.
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[> [> [> Re: minor correction ... -- Solitude1056, 13:35:02 10/20/01 Sat
That was the implication, given that Tara's reply was that her mother's death was not sudden. She then amends her statement to say that it's never expected - which I interpreted as meaning that her mother had been ill, to some extent, previous to her death.
A thought on Flooded... spoilers -- ecr110, 19:30:33 10/19/01 Fri
I've lurked on these boards for awhile, but this is my first message that I've written. I was just watching Flooded again (probably for like the sixth time) and I was struck by one thing in particular
- When Spike and Buffy were talking, they both mentioned that they were not ones for groups. Obviously, they are both referring to the Scoobies. Spike feeling out of the loop for not being part of the resurrection is clear. But Buffy has always been a big one for the group- they were pretty much the reason she survived so long. Since she is now feeling so disconnected, how will this affect her slaying?
Kind of a tangent- Buffy only seems to be trying to relate to those who had no part in bringing her back- Dawn, Giles and Spike. This was pretty evident during the part where Willow is attempting to talk to Buffy who is sending out pretty clear 'get lost' signals. If this disconnection continues, the Scooby gang will grow farther apart- is that what Joss meant by "Oh grow up already"? That as we age, we lose our childhood friends and grow away from our families? If this is so, then all the previous seasons would have meant nothing because they were all about building up this family unit of people who had no one else.
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[> Re: Mutating friends/families -- Wisewoman, 21:20:37 10/19/01 Fri
Part of the reason Buffy may not feel as comfortable in the group (aside from being yanked out of Heaven!) is that the group now consists of at least two subsets of couples: Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya. The people that Buffy's relating to are the ones who are still solitary, like her.
An argument could be made that Buffy/Dawn are also a family subset, or eventually maybe Buffy/Spike/Dawn, but then, Spike and Dawn seemed to have formed something of a familial relationship while Buffy was dead, so it's possible she feels a little on the outside of that one, too.
Right now the only person standing alone, like Buffy, is Giles, and we know he won't be around for long.
I don't think the SG is disintegrating as much as it's mutating, but time will tell...
;o) Welcome! Glad you decided to de-lurk.
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[> Re: A thought on Flooded... spoilers -- Deeva, 22:36:04 10/19/01 Fri
The disconnection may continue but maybe not to such a dramatic degree. The "Grow Up Already" theme is appropriate. We do need to grow up and apart, with a little bit of space between. When we do drift away, what makes it even better is when you find your way back. Don't get me wrong. The support that you get from others (whether it's from relatives or friends) around you is invaluable but learning to be self-sufficient is one of the best things that you can learn. Team-player, yah! Play well with others, woo-hoo! But there is something to be said the one person who can pull themselves up by their boot straps and do what they say they can do.
Buffy has made it this far because of her family. She may eventually go down as the oldest living Slayer because of that. But I think that the group gave her a great start and middle. Who knows when the finish will pop up, but when it does her friends will be there for her. Even in the group though she will stand alone. Like in "The Gift", the gang was assembled and battle ready with a plan, but her decision in the end was hers and hers alone.
As childhood friends, what brings you together are mostly common activities, interests or situations. Then you grow up. I think this season will be about how to reconnect. Buffy reconnecting with the world, Willow reconnecting with the gang after her power trip from the "dark side", the gang coming together some where in the middle.
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[> [> Re: A thought on Flooded... spoilers -- John Burwood, 00:33:27 10/20/01 Sat
There is a nothing new in Buffy being sort of semi-detached from the SG, especially in times of great stesss. It is particularly noticeable in the few episodes after Passion - in eps like Go Fish & IOHEFY it is noticeable on occasion when the SG are together in ordinary talking how often Buffy is standing or sitting just a little distance away from the others. The burdens of being so different can not help but inculcate a measure of outsiderness. In extreme cases, like WSWB & post-Becoming, she has of course detached even further.
When you are too different, there is always a limit to how far you can fit in even to your family.
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[> [> [> Re: A thought on Flooded... spoilers -- Juliette, 05:24:08 10/20/01 Sat
I don't think if the SG grow apart it will "make the first few seasons meaningless." The gang may grow apart, but they will always be there for each other when they need each other, having shared so much in the past. Just because a friendship has changed and people have grown apart with time doesn't invalidate that friendship. I know I still value my friendship with a friend I've seen only once in four years (I moved house) and we still talk over the phone and stuff - it's not the same but we're still friends. Buffy and Willow may grow apart and not be best buddies any more, but they will be there for each other when they're needed, for support or even just someone to talk to. (Unless Willow turns into a supervillain - maybe that wasn't the best example to pick!)
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[> [> [> Re: A thought on Flooded... spoilers -- bible belt, 17:23:28 10/23/01 Tue
I think that explains a great deal about Buffy's connection with Spike. Buffy has always been a few steps ahead of the SG in the maturity department. She dated Angel and Riley who were both older and more experienced, and neither one were a part of the SG. Now she's made this connection with Spike who, like Angel, has literally been around the world. That's what the resurrection seemed to me, the SG trying to pull Buffy back down to their level, or to keep her from becoming too detached.
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