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I'm special! (spoilers for Inside Out) -- pellenaka, 12:42:19 04/03/03 Thu

[rant]
Am I the only on who get tired of hearing Cordelia and Connor say that?

Cordelia: You're special.
Connor: I'm special.
Cordelia: Our baby is extraordinary.
Connor: We're special.

Within 5 minutes of their talk, my sister and I kept saying 'I'm special' after each of their lines. And then Cordelia said: 'We need some special tools' and we couldn't stop laughing.

[/rant]

[> yup, that line cracked me up as well. -- Solitude1056, 13:00:54 04/03/03 Thu

"We need some special tools."

Maybe the thesaurus got stuck open at the same page. It could happen - it's been happening for over a season on BtVS: "I get that." "It's a thing."

[> Re: I'm special! (spoilers for Inside Out) -- MaeveRigan, 13:45:54 04/03/03 Thu

It's a line that gathers irony as it goes. Like "we shall be as gods."

[> [> Re: I'm special! (spoilers for Inside Out) -- Dannyblue, 14:40:41 04/03/03 Thu

This is something cult leaders do to condition new members. Not only the part about telling someone they're special, but repeating things over and over and over again. It might have gotten on some fans' nerves, but it served a purpose. That was to get Connor to a place where he believed it was okay to do bad things for good reasons because he and his child were special.

[> [> [> Re: Thanks for idea -- Walking Turtle, 14:56:58 04/03/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Are you planning on starting a cult, Walking Turtle? ;) -- Arethusa, 15:00:35 04/03/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> I have lead a sheltered life - no experience with 'cults' just stupid bosses -- Walking Turtle, 15:24:50 04/03/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have lead a sheltered life - no experience with 'cults' just stupid bosses -- Dannyblue, 16:00:11 04/03/03 Thu

When I was about 11 or 12, someone actually tried to pull me into a cult. After having this woman talk to me for two hours about this group she was in, and how great it was, and how she felt sorry for people that wouldn't get it, but she knew I'd get it because I was so smart and insightful for my age, I swear she almost had me. I look back on it and shudder.

Anyway, the things Cordy was saying to Connor, and the way she was saying them, sounded kind of familiar to me.

[> Re: I'm special! (spoilers for Inside Out) -- deeva, 15:01:02 04/03/03 Thu

I couldn't wait for them to stop saying all that stupid "special", "sweet" and all that. It was not good.

[> What about Wes-O-Vision? (spoilers IO) -- PepTech, 16:10:57 04/03/03 Thu

The Matrix effect was kinda cool the first, oh, seven or eight times they used it, but it seems to be some kind of unwritten law that all gunfire take place in slow motion. I did like the continuity of plugging Skip in the recently- torn-open-by-Angel earhole, though.

RIP, Skip, ya bastard...

[> Uh...guys? -- dub ;o), 16:46:46 04/03/03 Thu

Didn't it kinda remind you of Xander's speech to Dawn? The whole, "You're not special. You're extraordinary." thing?

Is there something we're missing here? Cordy says she and Connor are special but that their baby will be extraordinary. Could be just one of those little hints that the two shows aren't as far apart as they appear...

;o)

[> [> Re: Uh...guys? -- Tyreseus, 17:25:08 04/03/03 Thu

Of maybe just that the writers of both shows have forgotten: exceptional, magnificent, outstanding, preeminent, rare, remarkable, singular, towering, and about a gazillion other equally effective synonyms.

[> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 00:11:23 04/04/03 Fri

Yesterday I had to remind my boss that he'd used the word "incompetence" three times on one page and give him three three different alternatives. So we used 'inadequate', 'ineptitude' and 'uselessness' in addition.

The Big Bad Parallels (Kind of Spoilery) -- Convict 430019, 13:25:44 04/03/03 Thu

The moment I saw the Big Bad's face I immediately recognized the actress as Gina Torres. The WB is notoriously famous for recycling their actors so I was not as surprised to see her as I could've been. She has not only co-starred in her own series, but has had several recurring roles on the Hercules/Xena universe and has been in a few other productions I have seen. Not to mention, she was supposed to be in Joss' "Firefly" series.

It was while researching this actress that I discovered the big bad's name--Jasmine--on IMDB.com

I tried finding some folklore on this Arabian flower, however, I could not. I was wondering if anybody with more powerful and honed resources and researching skills could list a few legends or attributes given to the flower. Maybe it would give us some insight into this new big bad Jasmine.

[> Jasmine blooms at night. -- HonorH, 15:33:17 04/03/03 Thu

Angelus made a garden of it for Dru in S2 on BtVS. Dunno if that's got anything to do with Torres' character, though.

BTW, she *was* in Joss' "Firefly" as Zoe, Capt. Mal Reynolds' second-in-command. This is a case of Joss recycling an actor, not just the WB.

[> [> Jasmine is one of many flowers regarded as being sacred.... -- Briar Rose, 17:41:36 04/03/03 Thu

It is also used to "dry up" milk flow in post partum (sp?) mothers.....Jasmine is burned/employed in many love and lust spells and used as an incense or room scent (dried, fresh or as essences/oils) to enhance psychic abilities.

But jasmine also has a down side: It is considered a slightly narcotic essence with the ability to seduce the human senses into hedonistic activities that can get out of control. It is used as an aphrodisiac in some cultures as well as in some holistic healing and aromatherapy practices.

That's off the top of my head.... I'l see what else I come up for specific cultures if the voynak doesn't eat this thread by tomorrow.*L

[> [> [> Correlations: Vishnu, Feminine, Moon. Money, Love, Psychic Visions.... -- Briar Rose, 02:20:29 04/04/03 Fri

Anyone up on Vishnu for the correlations possible between Vishnu and Jasmine the BabyGoddess? I'm not great at hindu gods and goddesses.... But would love to learn what it might have to do with the latest on AtS.

Only "night blooming" jasmine blooms at night - but that is "jasminoid officianalis" not jasminoidus odorifius whihc has many members to the horticultural family.

This is paraphrased from Chrissy Wildwood's "Aromatherapy For Lovers" (first printing):
Jasmine has undertones of fecal and sweat layered with the sweet scent of it's flowers. It is used for bringing tranquility and peace to the psyche. It is also used as an erotic stimulant and for healing psychic disturbances. It has a slightly narcotic effect on the nervous system. Good for tension headaches, depressed sexual desire and psychic healings. Should be avoided by pregnant women as it might cause problems with pregnancy.

And this was an interesting comment I found in her book: "Most people either love the scent of jasmine or hate it."

"I'm destiny-free" (spoilers through "Inside Out") -- Katrina, 16:12:56 04/03/03 Thu

The Buffyverse has always been rife with fate: prophecies, destinies, and whatnot. Now we're seeing the real dark side of fate: at least as posited by the revealed-to-be-evil, chicken-wing-eating demon Skip. (I agree with everyone who said that he shouldn't be trusted--especially at the moment they find out he's not to be trusted). Even before all the latest metaphysical goofiness: if a prophecy says Angel will become human, if Cordelia's "destiny" is to bear the visions, then where does their free will come in? What if the prophecy were to say evil will out: should they give up?

I like that this is being brought to the fore in the same episode that "Cordelia"'s sense of her specialness is brought to extremes both brutal and worthy of parody. Even the "real" Cordy had that thing about being "all superhero- ey," and Connor and Angel both have their superpowers. But now, the superbeingness of Connor and the Evilly Enhanced Cordelia is contrasted to the ordinary humanity of their victim, and their supposed superiority leads to a morally low and indefensible act. If Evil Cordy's an example of a superior being, then I'm happy to be inferior.

I wonder if this, and all the distrust/re-evaluation of the role of the PTBs, is making a comment about humanity. Angel's always had a dichotomy about his humanity. On the one hand, it's what he supposedly desires, and that will supposedly be the reward for thwarting some (this?) apocalypse. On the other hand, he already rejected humanity once before, because it's his being a vampire that gives him special powers to fight evil with. Losing the guidance of the PTBs, or at least the belief that they're watching over everything, and have chosen him for a special destiny as their champion, would put Angel much closer to the position of the regular mortals. They don't have any access to cosmic forces who can guide and advise them; they don't have their fates laid out for them in prophecy. They muddle through life, making their own decisions, and when they do good deeds, they do them in the dark, never knowing what the end result will be. However this ends, I think it will provide Angel with some insight into what he'll have to deal with if he ever does become human.

OT: I've got a job!!!!! -- HonorH, 22:40:06 04/03/03 Thu

I just signed a contract with Heritage Christian School! They're bringing me on full-time starting this fall. Pay's not terrific, but one, it's a heck of a lot better than substitute pay, and two, it's great experience. I love the school, and I can't wait to get started on planning my year. Hooray!

[> Re: OT: I've got a job!!!!! -- Angel, 22:45:39 04/03/03 Thu

Congrats! Sounds wonderful. I'd love to be a teacher....

B. just got a new job, too. Me? I'm still filling and sanding the holes in the office wall to get it ready to open, let alone run. -shrugs-

Great news, though! Wonderful. And best of luck.

-A-

[> Congratulations! -- Indri, 22:55:14 04/03/03 Thu

[> mazel tov, hh! hope it's enough money to fold @>) -- anom, 23:21:36 04/03/03 Thu

[> Re: OT: I've got a job!!!!! -- Calvin, 23:24:39 04/03/03 Thu

Congrats, this coming from someone who has been out of work for *5 months*. Hearing things like this gives me hope, a commodity in as short a supply as Xander's screen time this season.

Calvin

[> Yay, you!!!!! -- LittleBit, 23:45:17 04/03/03 Thu

[> Congratulations HH -- Tchaikovsky, 23:57:46 04/03/03 Thu

But don't let Honorificus get near the students...

TCH

[> Wonderful HH! My prayer's that all of us seeking jobs be employed by June! So this is GREAT news! -- Briar Rose, 02:24:06 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> Go job-seekers, go! And congrats HH! -- ponygirl, 07:22:58 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congratulations, Honor H! -- aliera, 03:06:52 04/04/03 Fri

[> Highjacking Thread!! I got a BIG HUGE RAISE! -- neaux, 04:30:48 04/04/03 Fri

=D

that's me with a big huge grin! a 20% increase!! Waahahaaaa!!!

and Congrats HH!!

[> Congrats - so, what level are you teaching? -- Darby, 04:54:36 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congratulations! -- CW, 05:16:24 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congratulations! -- LadyStarlight, 06:41:55 04/04/03 Fri

[> A woo and a hoo to you and neaux! -- Rob, feeling incredibly rhyme-y, 07:07:46 04/04/03 Fri

[> Re: OT: I've got a job!!!!! -- Gyrus, 08:24:36 04/04/03 Fri

Way to go! I know how much you wanted that one.

Now I'm just hoping your luck rubs off... :)

[> [> Re: Way to Go!!! -- Brian, 09:01:11 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congrats, HH! They're lucky to have you! -- MaeveRigan, 09:13:00 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congrats! Me too! -- tim, 09:13:25 04/04/03 Fri

"Searching for a job" was invented by sadistic howler monkeys who want to prove we're not the highest primates on the block after all. I've been on the market all (academic) year, and only last month found a position at a college in eastern Nebraska. (Now all that's left is that pesky dissertation...) So as one newly-employed educator, to another, my heartfelt congrats on the newfound income!

--th

[> Congrats, HH. Now you can keep Honorificus in the splendor which she thinks she richly deserves... -- cjl, 10:14:40 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> Yeah! New clothes! -- Honorificus (Who Deserves All Splendor), 12:01:52 04/04/03 Fri

I might even persuade her into Nordy's occasionally. Oo, so many pretty things. I ought to be able to eat up her paycheck nicely!

[> That's great!! Yeah for you! -- Arethusa, 11:09:19 04/04/03 Fri

[> Fabulous! Now Honorificus has many yummy choices for lunch! -- Sara, 13:18:57 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> I wish. Would you believe they don't let demons into that school? -- Honorificus (The Unstoppable One), 19:56:57 04/04/03 Fri

Prejudiced little snobs. I'm gonna sue for discrimination if Wolfram & Hart ever gets back on its feet in this dimension.

[> Congratulations! May you be tremendously productive in your most noble profession -- Just George, 13:42:55 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congratulations and Good luck -- Celebaelin, 13:59:16 04/04/03 Fri

[> heh heh heh... bwawuuahhahahahahhah! -- MagicBone, 18:58:46 04/04/03 Fri

My master's evil plan is falling into place. First HonorH, then the arm-pit sniffing public. Bwahahahahah.

[> Thats great ! (and i got a job too..yay us!) -- Alison, 20:02:03 04/04/03 Fri

[> Congrats!! And good luck. -- shadowkat, 08:37:23 04/05/03 Sat

GREAT IDEA! (SMG as Jessica in The Movie?) (Who to tell?) -- David Frisby, 04:04:58 04/04/03 Fri

My wife had what I think is a great idea. The rescue of POW Jessica from the hands of her Iraqi torturers WILL (most likely) become a movie (whether TV or major motion), and wouldn't it be great (assuming Jessica would like SMG to play her, and given that the role could help SMG greatly now that Buffy is over) if SMG played her? I think she is a perfect fit for the role.

Have you heard how Jessica fought to the end to prevent her capture, until her rifle failed? And (whether one is pro or con the war and Bush and Saddam etc), don't you think this one story will possibly stand out (at least so far) as the best story to be remembered from this whole thing?

Given the times, I want to say it is not my intention to offend anyone with anything I'd here said. Anyway, here's the idea, tossed into the wind. Anyone know how to email it to the ears that matter?

[> Re: GREAT IDEA! (SMG as Jessica in The Movie?) (Who to tell?) -- Darby, 04:52:26 04/04/03 Fri

It could work, but that's usually the subject matter of lower-profile TV movies and she probably wouldn't be interested at this point.

But if we're casting her on the big screen, wouldn't she make a perfect Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man?

[> [> Can totally be a major motion pic. has been done before! -- Mackenzie, 06:46:33 04/04/03 Fri

I like the idea too! It doesn't have to be low budget or whatever, remember that movie about the gulf war with Meg Ryan and some other famous people? I think it was called Courage Under Fire.

[> [> Re: GREAT IDEA! (SMG as Jessica in The Movie?) (Who to tell?) -- frisby, 09:41:09 04/04/03 Fri

A major motion picture would be nice, but like you I too suspect a lower-profile tv movie is more likely, but then, I still think it might do wonders for SMG's career (even though I loved Simply Irresitible, and Harvard Man wasn't bad) with regard to showing hollywood (and all) her wondrous talents -- her foot in the "big" door so to speak.

[> another great idea for a movie -- 110v3w1110w, 09:13:24 04/04/03 Fri

how about the make a movie about the fools that let women serve near the front lines and put them in the position to become POW

[> [> Re: another great idea for a movie -- Utopia, 15:10:58 04/04/03 Fri

What about the fools who let men near the front lines to be prisoners of war? Huh? Huh?

Arg.

[> [> [> Re: another great idea for a movie -- 110v3w1110w, 22:33:48 04/04/03 Fri

its different when its a woman. Why is it do you think that the iraqis kept the pretty blonde girl alive while thy killed the rest i dread to think what they did to that poor girl or what they were planing on doing, Even the iraqi that tipped our military off about her being alove and where she was being held did so because she was being tortured.

[> [> [> [> Re: another great idea for a movie -- Utopia, 23:34:19 04/04/03 Fri

Yes, they probably did unspeakable things to her. There are hundreds of stories about POW's being tortured. War is a terrible thing where lots of innocent civilians are killed. Children. Grandmothers. They are suffering on the front lines and they didn't enlist in the damn army.

I'm not saying whatever they did to her wasn't especially vicious, and I'm not saying she doesn't have my sympathy; she does. I have lots of sympathy for the poor girl, BUT I will defend her right to enlist, and her right to take the risks inherent in fighting for her country. You can't protect women by keeping them away from dangerous things as if they were very young children. It�s not your choice to make.

Countess Iblis (spoilers Inside Out, trailer and speculation at the end) -- lunasea, 04:41:24 04/04/03 Fri

Until the Baby is given an official name and probably after, she will be Countess Iblis to me. That is who she reminds me of. It was almost painful to watch Angel be turned into Starbuck and kneel at her feet.

From the trailer it looks like Fred will be taking the role of Apollo. What has captured my imagination the most is why her. She isn't the leading character or very strong in any way really.

My first thought was since Skip was involved in this, it had something to do with "Billy" since that is when we first met Skip. Talk about lame. The guys just can't think straight around her, but the only female character has a clue.

It had to be more than that. So I did what I often do when I get something stuck in my head like this, I took a nap. What makes Fred unique? I even puzzled it out with Hubby. His theories were what if that charm Angelus used on Fred actually worked for something or what if her trip to Pylea somehow made her immune.

Neither had any message for me. Then it hit me, Fred has something NO OTHER character in the entire Buffyverse has. She has two amazing wonderful parents. Fred has some body issues and some nerd issues, but not the same identity and love/approval issues that everyone else has. Fred is the one character that isn't looking for love and approval. THAT is why she will be immune to Countess Iblis.

The Countess looks down at Angel with a look of warmth and Angel says she is beautiful. When Angel sess Cordy up in the higher realms (where the Countess comes from) in the Axis of Pythia, Fred asks if she is beautiful. "God. - There was all this light around her. And the light seemed to be made up of - pure joy - and warmth."

(an aside was that light the Countess herself infusing every fiber of Cordy with her warmth. Did Angel witness the unknowing �rape� of Cordy? Did we see the real Cordy bitching up in the higher realms because she was still the real Cordy? After she was fully infused, she was then returned to Earth. The memory thing could be like Angel and his soul. When going from state to state like that, it takes a while for the memories to reintegrate.)

It is that warmth, that joy, that love, that approval that every character, but Fred, is so desperately looking for. Angel is in some serious trouble, until he realizes it isn't real. Angel doesn't say "I love you" to or about Cordy. Not in his hallucinations in "Deep Down." Not when he comes back. Not the entire time he sees her before she gets her memory back. Not in his perfect day fantasy in "Awakening." It is always about "need." That is why Countess Iblis will have him wrapped around her little finger. He feels he needs what she seems to offer.

Fred doesn't. She has two parents who adore her and unconditionally love her. What can the Countess offer her that can compare to that?

Same thing with Angel. He feels he needs what she offers, but does he really? The AI team just saw Angelus and they still accept and love him. Angel and Wesley are back to being brothers. Cordy and Buffy do love him. Willow and Faith believe in him and care about him. Connor is even starting to crack.

Hopefully that will break the Countess' hold over him. In "Deep Down" it is concern for Connor that snaps Angel out of his hallucinations. In "Ground State" it is concern for Cordy. In THAW, even without his destiny, Angel manges to be motivated to save his friends.

Lately they have been setting up the bond between Wesley and Angel. After "Players" there was no need to bring up Lilah again in "Inside Out." That just cemented Wesley and Angel further. Wesley wasn't in Vegas in THAW. Angel hasn't snapped out of anything to help him yet. I think Wesley will get the big one.

Maybe it will be a chain reaction. Countess Iblis wants Fred taken care of, so she has Wesley do it. Wesley's feelings for her won't allow this and the hold over him is broken. Then the Countess wants Angel to take care of them both. Angel's feelings won't allow this and the hold over him is also broken. This is just speculation and I don't think I've been right about a single thing all season.

The lame storyline with the Countess is lame if you focus on her. I think what is important is what she uses to gain control of people and how people break that control.

[> Re: Countess Iblis (spoilers Inside Out, trailer and speculation at the end) -- Corwin of Amber, 08:50:55 04/04/03 Fri

I think you're letting the plot of one (or was it two?) episode of a forgettable space opera from 25 years ago cloud your thinking too much. Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and expel it slowly while picturing a calming white light surrounding you. :)

Ok now, there really must have been something about that episode of battlestar galactica that makes you remember it. If it were simply bad, you would have forgotten about it. What was it?

[> "Who's Your Messiah Now, See?" (spoilery hints about ANGEL 4.18) -- cjl, 09:33:49 04/04/03 Fri

(Billy Crystal, imitating Edward G. Robinson in "The Ten Commandments." It never gets old.)

Been busy at work this week and helping a friend move in the evenings, so not much time to post. Typing this as I'm sorting mail at the office.

(Hmmm...."Wolfram Research." I hope they don't have a "Hart" subsidiary...)

Where was I? Oh, right, Count Iblis. Who played the Count back on Galactica, anyway? I forget.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I agree with lunasea on this. The False Messiah has been a cliche of fantasy and sci-fi for...well, forever, and you have to be careful when you do a FM plotline not to slip into the standard five-act story:

1. False Messiah arrives, promising peace, love, happiness and puppies all around.

2. Lone dissenter amongst our heroes sees the FM for what he/she/it truly is.

3. Brainwashed heroes attack our lone dissenter.

4. Lone dissenter evades capture/injury then ingeniously counteracts the FM's hold on our heroes.

5. Newly freed heroes band together to vanquish FM.

There are two ways to keep the audience from stepping out for potato chips while the writers check off the five-point plan: 1) as lunasea said, you explore the characters, and why they might follow the lovely, luminescent Jasmine or why a particular individual might be psychologically immune to her power; or 2) you flip the FM cliche itself.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Jasmine turned out to be a REAL messiah? A higher being who had the best interests of humanity at heart, who wanted to bring happiness and beauty to all the people of the world? ("Shiny, happy people" indeed.) Of course, humanity would have to follow her without question, with none of that annoying free will that's been messing things up until now. And therein would lie the dilemma: Would you be willing to exchange your free will for perfect happiness?

If anybody could tackle such a tricky philosophical issue in a TV drama format, it would be Joss and ME. Let's see what they do...

[> [> Re: "Who's Your Messiah Now, See?" (spoilery hints about ANGEL 4.18) -- lunasea, 10:30:48 04/04/03 Fri

There are two ways to keep the audience from stepping out for potato chips while the writers check off the five- point plan: 1) as lunasea said, you explore the characters, and why they might follow the lovely, luminescent Jasmine or why a particular individual might be psychologically immune to her power; or 2) you flip the FM cliche itself.

I think Joss will do both. "Shiny Happy People" will explore 1 and after the heroes break her control (and it better be quick. They can't Spikify Angel for too long), they will find out 2. I think one character will remain her servant even after he finds out what is going on. Angel will fight against "good" but not for "evil."

Now I don't think the plot is so lame. My biggest concern was how they were going to bring Angel over to Buffy after this. It all makes complete sense now. I just want to know the same thing I did about S6...

HOW IN BLAZINGS DID THEY WRITE THAT?!?!?

Also, how is this going to tie into the new paradigm for next season?

[> [> [> Re: "Who's Your Messiah Now, See?" (spoilery hints about ANGEL 4.18) -- mawrgwyn, 11:46:07 04/04/03 Fri

You'll have to excuse me if this doesn't follow with this thread, I have never posted to this site before, so.. Anyway, my question is, is Cordy dead. I thought Skip said it didn't matter if Angel killed her or not since she would die during labor anyway. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please.

[> [> [> [> Re: Cordy (spoilers IO) -- CW, 14:00:51 04/04/03 Fri

There was a brief shot in IO after the birth in which Cordy appears to breathe out a death rattle. But, it wouldn't be past ME to bring her back in some form, alive or dead.

[> [> I have to say I like this idea -- Doug, 11:45:40 04/05/03 Sat

What if Jasmine is genuine, what if this is what TPTB have been leading our heroes toward; using the visions and shaping events to get everybody to make the choices that would bring this about. Sounds like Jasmine is taking people back to the Garden of Eden; before eating the fruit. Ultimate happiness and peace, without all the freedom of choice and knowledge of good and evil that humanity gained when they ate the fruit.

What if this isn't like the Antichrist, but like the Second Coming instead?

[> [> ' The Ones who walk away...' -- OnM, 08:59:41 04/06/03 Sun

*** Of course, humanity would have to follow her without question, with none of that annoying free will that's been messing things up until now. And therein would lie the dilemma: Would you be willing to exchange your free will for perfect happiness? ***

My guess is that about 98 to 99% of humanity would gladly give up free will in exchange for 'paradise'.

This has always been something that puzzled me about the religious concept of heaven, at least the Western one. Do you still have free will in heaven? It would seem to me that you would not, otherwise one could choose to do evil in heaven, and what I was taught as a child essentially states that this is impossible-- God would not allow it.

The usual response I've encountered states that if you were truly eligible for life in heaven, you would not wish to do evil, but this strikes me as circular reasoning. Can you choose freely, or not?

A related tangent to this 'free will/heaven/choices' idea is outlined in Ursula LeGuin's classic short story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, and the followup novel regarding anarchy as a viable form of 'government' in The Dispossessed.

Has anyone who has read either of these works have any comment?

[> [> [> the right-lane analogy -- Solitude1056, 10:19:20 04/06/03 Sun

Steven Gaskin said, "Christian freedom is when you're in the right-hand lane, and it's a right-turn only lane, and you have the freedom to want to turn right."

[> [> [> "Bondage with ease, rather than strenuous liberty"? -- Rahael, 12:55:21 04/06/03 Sun

Reposting an archived post because it seemed apropos:

In Areopagitica, Milton says:

�Many there be that complain of divine providence for suffering Adam to transgresse, foolish tongues! When God gave him reason, he gave him freedom to choose, for reason is but choosing.�

And man's (and woman's capacity) to reason is what will lead them to God, because:

�The first of the attributes which show the inherent nature of God, is Truth � (De doctrina Christiana)

For Milton, God constantly presented choices, and the ultimate choice that man could make was to choose liberty, or bondage.

There could be a parallel made between the mental slavery one falls into if one gives up choice, as Connor does. Mental slavery, like Samson - who is convinced that he has been abandoned. But it is Samson who abandoned God, by choosing to be enslaved in his mind.

�Which shall I first bewail,
Thy bondage or lost sight,
Prison within prison
Inseparably dark?
Thou art become (O worst imprisonment!)
The dungeon of thyself��
Imprisoned now indeed �

In Areopagitica, Milton had argued that true virtue could only be seen under trial, that through contradiction, truth (and, thus, God) could be expressed:

�I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees her adversary but slinks out of the race�

and

�that which purifies us is trial, and trial is by what is contrary�

This view�s ideal form is demonstrated in Samson Agonistes, as different and opposing ideas build into the final truth � liberty in spirit (� and God).

When Darla appears to Connor, perhaps it could be comparable to this sentiment, that 'if virtue feeble were, Heaven itself would stoop to her' (Masque performed at Ludlow Castle). The choices are there for us to make. If we are weak, help is at hand (Angel Investigations - we help the helpless), but, everyone has to make their choice, whether it's Lindsey, going back to Wolfram and Hart, or Angel in Redefinition, or in Epiphany, whether it's Gunn and Fred in Supersymmetry or Connor in Inside Out - virtue that is not exercised by the temptation of evil might be meaningless.

In the new and terrifying version of the AtSverse that Skip posits, tempting everyone to fall into despair (and thus mental slavery) there is still the presence of choice, of the exercise of our rational minds, of the path to liberty.

.....................................

And to comment directly to your post, I cannot agree that so many of mankind would give up their 'free will' so easily. If one is referring to following religion as giving up free will, I cannot agree to that correlation.

Milton's formulation can be seen as contradictary to Luther's because Luther argued that man's reason will only lead him further away from God, nothing that man could himself do, would lead him to God. Milton did not believe that God could possibly have any role in 'evil'. He did not author it, or be responsible for it. Therefore man's choice is essential. For him, God was about reason, and choice. When one denies oneself choice, when one blind in Gaza 'at the mill with slaves', then one is as far from God as you can be, even if you are his 'Champion', with 'heaven gifted strength'.

So, just wanted to point out that Christianity has a very wide range of opinion about 'choice' and 'will'.

[> [> [> Re: ' The Ones who walk away...' (spoilers for Omelas) -- ponygirl, 15:00:25 04/06/03 Sun

Hmm, I never saw Omelas as being as much about free will as about the ends justifying the means, still a very valid topic for both series right now. For those who haven't read the story, run now and do it, it's short, haunting and possibly one of the best fantasy stories of all time -- but essentially Le Guin presents a wonderful, fullfilling society, whose entire happiness is based upon the fact that somewhere in their city a single child is tormented and in pain.

I think everyone in Omelas does have free will, their awareness of the child and their acceptance of this price of one for the many would be meaningless without the element of choice. And of course there are the ones who choose to walk away...

It's been a long time since I read The Dispossessed, but IIRC even the kind of anarchy being presented there didn't really seem to work, the main characters were in favour of it, but didn't they seem to settle into a fairly traditional family unit?

The Omelas question does haunt me though. What if we had not seen the Ben/Glory argument in season 5, where Ben knowingly decides to trade Dawn's life for his own? He had a choice, a bad choice, but there still was the element of free will in cooperating with Glory. If we had not known this, if Ben truly had been an innocent, how would Giles' actions have been seen?

[> [> [> "Innumerable force of Spirits armed -- Sophist, 18:31:07 04/06/03 Sun

That durst dislike his reign, and, me preferring
His utmost power to adverse power opposed
In dubious battle on the plains of Heaven,
And shook his throne."

Yeah, Milton certainly believed that free will existed in heaven, else Satan never could have rebelled. He also considered the debate sterile:

"Others apart sat on a hill retired,
In thoughts more elevate, and reasoned high
Of providence, foreknowledge, will, and fate,
Fixed fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute,
And found no end, in wandering mazes lost.
Of good and evil much they argued then,
Of happiness and final misery,
Passion and apathy, and glory and shame,
Vain wisdom all and false philosophy."

Based on this passage, and on the general tenor of Lutheran and Calvinist thought, I'd say Milton's belief in free will rested on faith. As this passage shows, it had long been recognized that free will is logically incompatible with omniscience, to say nothing of omnipotence. Milton knew these scholastic debates and considered them traps for the faith of the believer.

I'd say that, like Milton, most Protestants believe in free will as a matter of faith and don't worry about the logic of it.

[> I love the direction this has gone in -- lunasea, 06:35:11 04/07/03 Mon

Jasmine didn't make one choice for anyone. The gods cannot take away our choices. That is why I posted the Rush song "Free Will" earlier. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Angel and everyone acted like Jasmine thought they would (which is why I don't think she is evil. She couldn't understand their goodness and use it against them so well if she was). They didn't do much against their will (Angel didn't exactly want to rescue Billy)

Freedom and bondage, just perceptions. If you never want to do something those in power don't want you to, you live in total freedom. If you live in the freeest society on earth, you still have to give up something (basic social contract). If you want to do that thing, you live in bondage.

At some point, our choices are restricted. If not by others than the laws of the universe itself. Go ahead and try to choose not to die. Choose to be in two places at once (though a lot are trying to do this with the plethora of cell phones around). Choose to stay awake until the next new Buffy.

The lamb can lay down with the lion, provided the lion doesn't eat the lamb. Can the lion do this? Rights are means to things (our more perfect union). When we focus on the rights for the sake of rights, we lose that more perfect union. What are you willing to give up for that? The problem becomes in a diverse society there are many ideas of this more perfect union and they have to be balanced against each other. If actual paradise was possible, what are you willing to give up so that others can experience this.

Are you willing to be that one child that is tortured to give others this society?

My head can now stop spinning (spoiler Inside Out) -- lunasea, 08:04:47 04/04/03 Fri

Maybe some of those more familiar with Sumer-Babylonia mythology can help me fill in the blanks. I have to admit the Enuma Elish gives me a big headache (almost as big as Inside Out did, but not in a good way).

The appearance of "Angel's" Grand Spawn reminded me of Tiamat. Maybe it is time for Wesley to get his ass busy on the Scroll of Aberjian. We had Codex mentioned in "Orpheus" (hopefully setting up a cross-over) Will the Scroll hold the key to defeating AtS's big bad? "This is an ancient sacred text, not a magic eight ball." Maybe there is a reason Lorne used a magic eight ball at the end of "Players" besides comedic effect.

Back to the blanks. Doesn't Marduk have connotations with the sun? This would explain why Tiamat went after it. Could The First be Apsu? Doesn't get much more "beginning" than Sumer-Babylonia.

I will admit that I can't find my book on Mesopotamian Mythology, so I am just winging it. I hope someone can elaborate on this for me. I don't think ME is directly following any particular mythology, but I can see them using the story for symbolic purposes. Thanks

[> Re: My head can now stop spinning (spoiler Inside Out) -- Lot's Wife, 09:20:17 04/04/03 Fri

I found this info. It may help.

TIAMET

In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.
In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea.

Marduk cleaved her body in half, and from the upper half he created the sky and from the lower half he made the earth. From her water came forth the clouds and her tears became the source of the Tigris and the Euphratus. Kingu also perished, and from his blood Marduk created the first humans.

MARDUK

Literally, "bulf calf of the sun". The son of Ea, and leader of the gods. He was a fertility god, but originally a god of thunderstorms. His consort was Sarpanitu
According to Enuma Elish, an ancient epic poem of creation, Marduk defeated Tiamat and Kingu, the dragons of chaos, and thereby gained supreme power. Acknowledged as the creator of the universe and of humankind, the god of light and life, and the ruler of destinies, he rose to such eminence that he claimed 50 titles. Eventually, he was called simply Bel, meaning "Lord."

APSU

A primeval Sumero-Akkadian god who personifies the primordial abyss of sweet waters underneath the earth. He is the consort of Tiamat, the primordial abyss of salt waters of Chaos. In the later mythology of the Enuma Elish, the sweet water mingled with the bitter waters of the sea and with a third watery element, perhaps cloud, the first gods were engendered. The waters of Apsu were thought of as held immobile underground by the 'spell' of Ea in a death-like sleep, but it is also said that Ea had Apsu fallen asleep and had killed him. From the clay of Apsu man was fashioned. This appears to be a Sumerian myth, because in the Enuma Elish, Kingu's blood serves this purpose. Apsu's vizir, Mummu, was imprisioned in a house built on his body.

Source:
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/mesopotamian/ar ticles.html

Newbies and an old pal ("Potential" and "Soulless" - some later spoilers) -- KdS, 08:37:59 04/04/03 Fri

Another excellent double bill. I was really looking forward to the return of Angelus, but Potential, which I expected to be a filler episode, turned out to be far better than I expected.

Potential, unfortunately, does rather bring home a problem of this season of BtVS. Being as we're all well- versed in mythology, moral philosophy, and both literary and fantasy fiction, I think we're all fairly clear that Buffy's more militaristic tendencies are going to be revealed as a problem. Unfortunately, as the plot arc is written for people slower on the uptake, who are probably cheering Buffy on right now, it means that we have to sit around for nine or ten eps of Buffy with her head shoved up her own backside, which isn't the most edifying or entertaining of spectacles. Before anyone accuses me of character bashing, I'm fully aware of the stress that Buffy's under - an incorporeal and unthumpable foe whose long term plan is still shrouded in mystery, a bunch of innocent young women to train and protect, at least two old comrades in a dangerously unstable and unpredictable mental state. A lack of clarity on the big picture is perfectly excusable, but it makes for a rather frustrating watch. The key problem, I think, comes subtly into focus in the opening speech to the potentials. There's all this business about "Decide you aren't the one who's going to die" - this individualism, this treatment of other people as potentially expendable, is I strongly feel exactly what the FE wants. Buffy's problem is that she's working on the basis that this is the same type of struggle she's been in so many times before where the enemy wants to kill everyone. Unfortunately, on this occasion death is only a side issue for the Big Bad - what it really wants to do is to ensure everybody's damnation. And that requires very different tactics in defence - if not a complete abandonment of most of the assumptions of "tactics".

What did reassure me a lot that I haven't totally misread ME over the years was the Dawn/Xander/Anya/Willow scenes when it appears that Dawn's a potential Slayer. Every time DtVS speculation has come up on the board, I've felt extremely uncomfortable with the idea, because it seems to turn Slayer status into some kind of Golden Ticket, denying all the uglier aspects of the life. To hear Anya and Willow stressing them, and seeing Dawn's discomfort with the idea even before that, reassured me a lot.

The big Xander speech caused a great deal of discussion on the board as I recall, with some people arguing that Xander was indefensibly placing his own problems over Buffy's. Personally, I didn't see any attempt to claim any kind of moral ranking - just a clear statement of the subtle differences between the feelings and challenges of the mystically Chosen combatant and the combatant driven solely by feelings of duty. (Let's clarify this - I'm not suggesting that Buffy, or Angel, or Willow aren't driven by a fealing of duty, just that in their case they know that no- one, or very few people could replace them if they decided to retire. Xander has never had that feeling of reinforcement.) What did annoy me just a little was the rather self-satisfied portrayal of Xander's astonishing powers of emotional perception, which, while I'm not as harsh on the guy as some people on the board (cough*Sophist*cough), struck me as somewhat denying the extent to which he's screwed up as well over the years.

I really do not have a problem with the Potentials-in-the- tomb business - it was four or five against one, they had to have their first real dusting sooner or later. I think the disturbance comes because after the ad break you cut very quickly to Buffy and Spike turning up in the school and it looks as if they just left the girls to it, but when you look again at the timing that isn't what necessarily happened.

More minor issues:

Very nice visual reference of Dawn climbing out of the exact same window that Buffy did in the days when she was trying to keep her Slayer status from Joyce.

It's been quoted before how Buffy's speeches are subverted in this episode so often - vampires are just animals, but she's worried about the state of one's ribs, all demons want to slaughter you, then Clem turns up for a chat.

I have to admit, I like Andrew to the point that I'm starting to see him as a microcosm of the whole point of the season (have a huge essay planned in my mind, but won't write it before 7:22 in case I'm utterly wrong.) The mushroom line was quite hilarious. However, I have more empathy with those who just find him annoying since the Dragonball Z speech - he's much less watchable if he's riffing on something which you have absolutely no clue about. (I know it's a Japanese kids' TV show, this is not a request for anyone to send me a complete concordance and plot summary). He reminded me incredibly of S1-3 Xander in the snakeskin dialogue exchange - the way he made the joke and then crumpled as he realised he'd overstepped the mark.

Now we move to Soulless, which I'm hesitating to admit was one of the funniest ME episodes I have ever seen. Maybe that puts me a bit closer to Angelus than I should be. It got to the point that I even heard Wes's line about Angelus using "the tiniest opening" as a sexually perverse double entendre. DB was quite fantastic, especially if the reports that he improvised a lot of his lines himself are correct. (A quick correction re the singing - some people on the board were suggesting that it was better than Angel's singing voice. As a vocally challenged person myself, I can string notes of the correct relative interval together and sound reasonably good a capella - it's when I have to sing in tune with an accompaniment that the results are truly horrible.)

There were complaints that Angelus was too laid back, but I think that's a misreading of Angel and Angelus as two different personalities with no continuous consciousness. As I see it, Angelus is Angel minus conscience and it seems perfectly plausible to me that Angelus would have Angel's currently more laid-back and fatalistic personality. He went berzerk last time because it was the first time he'd been Angelus again after a period as souled Angel (and as I interpret it it was the second violation of his possession by Grace in IOHEFY that really sent him over the edge). As it is now he's had more time to adjust to the fact of his goodness as Angel, he doesn't believe so much now in grand narratives and obligations to follow creeds of evil, he's just out to get as much fun in as he can before either death or resoulment. Which of course makes him very dangerous and extremely unpredictable :->

The reactions of AI were very good indeed. Wes torn between fear, the desire to show off his strength, and even something akin to fanboy adulation. Gunn uncomplicated furious, Fred equally uncomplicatedly terrified, and Connor and Cordy both eerily calm. I would *really* like to know how much of this episode was Cordy and how much Jasmine - there is something going on but I can't guess what. If the Svear had been dead for days it also seems hard to explain why Jasmine would send AI to find their bodies, unless as yab thought it was just psychological warfare and to give someone the chance to steal the soul.

However, one big plot hole for me is why the AI crew even bothered to try playing mind games on Angelus (the words "hedgehog" and "arse-kicking contest" come to mind) and didn't start straight in with the holy water, red-hot pokers, small crucifixes placed in sensitive places... Because of feelings for Angel? Come on, Wes would do it in a heartbeat, and Gunn and Fred would after five minutes of chat with Angelus. OK, it wouldn't have made for such a good ep...

And finally, whether Cordelia is good or evil or not, I cannot see the justification for the claim that she's a bad person for not letting Angelus rape and torture her to death...

[> Thanks! Keeping this alive til I can answer properly! -- Rahael, 09:54:03 04/04/03 Fri

[> Saving this baby from Voynak -- Masq, 05:21:41 04/05/03 Sat

Hey, we got more than 5 archives again! I wish they'd just give us more space on the main board!

[> Angelus (also later but not-past-now spoilers) -- Darby, 07:46:51 04/05/03 Sat

I really like your idea about this time's Angelus being a reflection of the current Angel - that first soul-removal came after almost a century of society-fringe patheticness followed by moony-eyes over a Slayer, but the demon (if it has some remnant of its own consciousness, as the dream sequence seemed to suggest) might be feeling a bit more comfortable in Angel's shoes lately and not so requiring the making of a statement. I hadn't really thought about the character development of Angelus!

[> Re: Newbies and an old pal ("Potential" and "Soulless" - some later spoilers) -- Rahael, 10:12:19 04/05/03 Sat

Okay I had a long post written up which I lost because my computer crashed. Bah!!

So, the shorter version - Liked Potential, Loved Soulless. Connor is one of the most unpredictable, complex characters I've ever seen in the MEverse.

I had the exact same reaction to finding Angelus a hoot (I always have preferred Angel to Angelus, in fact, not really into Angelus in the way others have been, prior to this!). What is AtS doing to me? It's made me fascinated with two characters I never thought about a lot - Darla and Angelus. And I snorted at the 'every opening' comment too. LOL.

A while ago I posted that it was the women of the MEverse who spoke to me. It was all about the women. Nowadays, it's almost the opposite. I don't like Cordy (and obviously not meant to), and I've never felt more disconnected from Buffy (and have the awful feeling that I'm not meant to feel this way). Still love Anya (sharp sharp knives, lol!) and Dawn is really coming into her own, oh, and Lilah - really big fan. But here are the characters I am now really really into: Angel, Connor, Gunn, Wesley, Andrew, and...Xander!! I'm really taken aback by this!

Andrew is now my entry point into BtVS (it's always been Buffy before).

[> [> Thoughts..("Potential" + all earlier episodes) -- Abby, 11:22:09 04/05/03 Sat

I'm currently trawling through archives at the moment for these episode's discussion, but I've been itching to have *actual* contribution to voy (after about 6 months of merely skipping spoler-free past the main page and archive reading) so here are some thoughts.

Buffy. Now like you I've felt beaten over the head with the commando act, however the scene with Margo at school where she regresses into 'endearingly weird' over the being mean scenario perversely thawed me somewhat to her current character. Now, on one level the trivialisation of S/B season six in one sentence made me grimace, yet that grimace morphed into a smile- when was the last time was saw comic!Buffy? I think it was that brief contrast with commando!Buffy that kept me engaged this episode.

Dawn. I think it was because there had been so much board discussion of the blood-tie SIT storyline re:her that made me think..."there's more to this one". Now what really struck me was her displaying yet again her fatalistic tendancies we saw foremost in 'Help'. She leaves the safety of the Summers' home regardless of having encountered the Harbingers, and then plunges straight into an extremely vulnerable situation. Also, when did Buffy decide Dawn did not need training to protect herself? Before the SIT's arrived Dawn was being prepared, in the name of self- defence. Big Bad around= civilians in great need of ass- kicking powers. Although I do see a capable Dawn here- nice Bunsen burner trick!

Spike. I liked that we saw a development of the contact issue: previously we saw his touching her to be uncomfortable, yet she assumed her touching him was fine. Here we see him reclaim his body, as it were, from her access. I'm also worried that the 'vamp w/ soul' semantics have not been properly explained to the SITs..I can see some conflicting examples arising (also Clem) that could become an issue in future. Where did we hear the all-important 'some creatures are monsters but not therefore 'bad''?

Finally...where has Miss Lizzie McGuire gone? Was she the dark-haired plaited one with the bad English accent? If so, I didn't recognise her.

Abby

[> [> "Connor is one of the most unpredictable, complex characters I've ever seen in the MEverse." -- Masq, 15:00:48 04/05/03 Sat

Re: Inside Out And the aggravating, heart-rending complexity just keeps on coming!

I hope that if there is a season 5 that Vincent K. gets contracted to stay on the show as a regular again. He's an amazing actor and Connor is a compelling character.

I have always related to the male characters just a little bit more than the female characters, and I think it's just because I see more of myself in the male characters--I see more of myself in Angel than in Buffy, more of myself in Giles than Willow, more of myself in Connor than Dawn, etc., etc. Never could relate to Anya at all. Fred I like, but again, not compelling.

The female characters I relate the most to are strangely enough the bad girls--Faith and Darla. Although I'm happy with them being angsty complex redeemed characters as well. The exception to this is Tara, who was never a bad girl, and who could have been very annoying with her wise-earth-woman act, but never ever was. I dug good-girl Tara, but not really in a "I can relate to her" kind of way.

[> [> [> Re: "Connor is one of the most unpredictable, complex characters I've ever seen in the MEverse." -- Abby, 10:11:28 04/06/03 Sun

I'm agreeing with the Connor-love, even at only 4.9, his interaction with Angel really has leant the episodes a certain freshness that lifts them to me. As much as the wraught adult complexities of relation is interesting, there's just something about his instinctive adolescent contribution that sparkles the storylines for me (not that his character is not wraught or complex!). But funnily enough I find Dawn just doesn't add that- probably because Buffy has never been such a dark or adult show to me, regardless of the themes covered. The tone of Angel- everything from the style of editing and direction has been so much more 'grown-up' . Which is why this little shard of childhood reaction, with all its lack of rational and intellectualising is such a contrast.
As for characters, I've never overtly identified with any of them, nor thought about it in that manner. There are characters I find far more compelling, due to acting (s6+7 Spike) and story, and I'm loving Wesley's evolution on so many different levels. Actually, I enjoyed Faith too- so there's something about a descent into darkness that is gripping to me. In terms of being similar in age, Dawnie should be up there for me, but she's not- I just can't find myself in her, we are really worlds apart in how we interact with the world. Anya is enjoyable on the level that we both seem to be speakers of what would remain unspoken. I never found myself in Buffy either, although funnily enough I read the Jung anti-self analysis religiously, yet it wasn't until my counsellor pointed out a passage for me to relate to that it just clicked- the projection issues etc.

So, unknowing of spin-off issues etc or who is to fall by the wayside in the impending apocolypses post Potential and Angelus, I want to keep seeing lots of Wesley, Connor, Spike..and please, a return for Old!Cordy

[> [> [> [> That teen-aged thing -- Masq, 12:06:03 04/06/03 Sun

The tone of Angel- everything from the style of editing and direction has been so much more 'grown-up' . Which is why this little shard of childhood reaction, with all its lack of rational and intellectualising is such a contrast.

You know, I think that a lot of what is appealing about Connor comes from this, you're right. Cordelia (and I'm talking about S 1-3 Cordy, not Evil!Cordelia) is the same age as Buffy, Xander and Willow, but on "Angel" she's always seemed a lot older, almost as old as Charisma.

And Angel, Wesley, Lilah, even Gunn and Fred are grown-ups, even if sometimes they act like petulant children.

Connor, on the other hand, IS a petulant child. Cordelia may judge him as being 18, but he is just so sheltered and naive about the ways of the world, he is just so not used to dealing with human beings--he never had any of this for 99% of his life, that he comes across as much younger than he is.

I've never been drawn to those "say it like it is" characters like Spike and Anya. They don't appeal to me. I like angsty characters who screw up a lot and stumble through life making mistakes and having to deal with the consequences, and sometimes not well. I like Angel and Faith and Connor.

Different strokes.

But YES, we need old Cordelia back. You know Evil!Cordelia did a good job sometimes of channeling her. Hopefully if there's a Season 5, Cordy will be back to her old self.

You know, after she deals with the cosmic reprecussions of letting her self be dragged into the Sturm and Drang of what's going on now!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: That teen-aged thing (AtS S3/4 spoilers) -- Rob, 13:19:10 04/06/03 Sun

"But YES, we need old Cordelia back. You know Evil!Cordelia did a good job sometimes of channeling her. Hopefully if there's a Season 5, Cordy will be back to her old self.

You know, after she deals with the cosmic reprecussions of letting her self be dragged into the Sturm and Drang of what's going on now!"

You're right. I'm really hoping that they do deal with Cordy's responsibility in her own abduction, evil-izing, etc. and don't just ignore it in the excitement of getting the old Cordy back (if they do). Because in many ways it was her hubris towards the mid-to-latter portion of the third season that lead to her being duped into the Ascension. Although she was taken advantage of and tricked, she didn't have to buy Skip's lines about her being all perfect, noble, pure, and glowy now. She took on the "St. Cordy" role by herself.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> In retrospect, Rob... -- Masq, 16:45:33 04/06/03 Sun

Remember how we all hated Glowy!Cordelia, "Saint" Cordelia? In retrospect, I think we were supposed to. Now granted, the other characters didn't see her as annoying. Lorne, Angel, etc, they were praising her.

But I think the writers knew what they were doing with this. I mean, they deliberately had a scene where Cordelia tried to use her powers and couldn't (I think it was in "Benediction"). She wasn't fully responsible for clearing the hotel of sluks or giving Connor the soul colonic. She just could be manipulated into believing that she was. By Skip, if you recall.

And then there was "Calvary" where Mere Smith had Lilah call Cordelia "Saint Cordelia". It was a shout-out to fans who bitched about Cordelia's strange character direction in the end of season 3.

KdS had a post a while back where he pointed out that Cordelia herself took all the half-demon, vision-girl stuff deadly seriously. I liked KdS's post because he pointed out that Cordelia almost began to become a "Powers that Be" groupie. So loyal to her calling and her responsibility to Angel that she would turn her back on Wesley in "The Price". I mean she literally says something like that to Fred, "Angel is the only person I care about."

At the time, some of us thought this was just the writers going in a shippy direction with C&A, but in retrospect, there was no shippy place for those two characters to go. So in reality, the writers might actually have been depicting Cordelia as becoming quite obsessed with her role. They were writing her to be the kind of person who would take up Skip's offer of both demonhood AND going to the higher plane.

So I don't think the writers will forget it. I think they have it all Arc-ed out as part of Cordelia's journey. Let's just hope we have a Season 5 to watch it all play out.

O/T: Miracles has been cancelled -- dub :o(, 09:58:15 04/04/03 Fri

From Variety.com
http://www.variety.com/index.asp?
layout=story&articleid=VR1117884114&categoryid=14&cs=1

ABC debunks 'Miracles,' drops drama
Show is 6th freshman series axed by net this season

By Michael Schneider

Apparently, ABC's "Miracles" needed one.
The Alphabet web has yanked the drama off its schedule for the
remainder of the season, opting to air repeat segs of "The Practice"
on Mondays at 10 p.m. for the time being.

ABC had high hopes for "Miracles," which stars Skeet Ulrich as a man
who investigates unexplained phenomena. Webheads premiered the show
the day after the Super Bowl and moved "The Practice" to Mondays as a
lead-in, angering that show's David E. Kelley in the process.

Even though the show was retooled from its original dark, religious
undertones, "Miracles" had trouble finding an audience from the
beginning. After six airings, it averaged a 2.5 rating/6 share among
adults 18-49 and 6.5 million viewers overall, according to Nielsen.

Cancellation was a foregone conclusion after this Monday, when the
show posted a dismal 1.8 rating in adults 18-49. [Note from dub: Couldn't be because they'd advertised it the last two weeks in a row, and then didn't show it, could it? Hmmmm?? Bleh!] "Miracles" had
declined every week since its debut (3.6/9).

Show now reps the sixth freshman drama axed by ABC this season,
following "Push, Nevada," "MDs," "That Was Then," "Dinotopia"
and "Veritas: The Quest." Of all its new hourlong scripted fare,
just "Dragnet" remains.

"Miracles" came from Touchstone TV and Spyglass Entertainment. Roger
Birnbaum, Gary Barber and David Greenwalt exec produced.
--- End forwarded message ---

[> Re: O/T: Miracles has been cancelled -- CW, 13:18:48 04/04/03 Fri

I watched about half of the last ep of Miracles then turned it off. The series wasn't developing fast enough to make it on its own.

I think it was a huge mistake to put The Practice on before instead of after Miracles. Veritas got pretty lame fast, but it was still a better lead in for Miracles. I just can't see the loyal audience of The Practice caring about Miracles. But, I can't blame The Practice (which I didn't watch) for getting me bored enough to turn Miracles off the other night.

Dragnet is much better than any of those shows, anyway. I recommend it. Have ME and its alums completely lost their touch?

[> [> Re: O/T: Miracles has been cancelled -- Alvin, 16:21:05 04/04/03 Fri

I read that they showed the episodes out of order which ruins the ME trademark of great characters and plot arcs. For instance, in the last episode Paul tells Evelyn "Say hi to Mattie for me" but Mattie is introduced in one of the missing episodes.

[> [> [> Network idiots -- Gyrus, 06:11:08 04/05/03 Sat

>I read that they showed the episodes out of order which >ruins the ME trademark of great characters and plot arcs.

I am beginning to notice a pattern in the way that networks kill off genre shows, including MIRACLES, FIREFLY, and BABYLON 5: CRUSADE. Showing eps out of order is a big part of it, as is pre-empting the show several times during its early run. (Network demands for more action were also factors in the demise of FIREFLY and CRUSADE, though that certainly doesn't seem to have been a problem with MIRACLES.) I can't imagine that ER or THE PRACTICE could have survived such treatment in their first seasons, let alone these SF shows.

I agree that MIRACLES was slow-moving, but I still thought it had potential. And the pace might have seemed faster if they had showed eps on any sort of regular basis.

[> [> [> [> Re: Network idiots -- CW, 06:22:16 04/05/03 Sat

Obviously, the networks have the contractual right to show the series in any order they please. It seems to me the studios could put an end to this playing-it-out-of-order nonsense by the simple expedient of including an episode number in the titling. That way if the network insisted on playing things out of order, it would be obvious to everyone.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Network idiots -- Dannyblue, 07:38:38 04/05/03 Sat

The problem is that there don't seem to be any people in charge at the major networks who actually like genre shows...or understand the genre audience. I have yet to see an interview from a network exec that sounds like they know a vampire from a Vulcan. (Okay, an exageration, but you get the gist.) I imagine (probably unfairly) that they are like my mother. She just doesn't get most genre entertainment. To her, it seems weird, and pointless. Why would anyone like this stuff, let alone take it seriously? Why does her child like watching shows about stuff that isn't real?

I bet most of the execs at ABC didn't really get Miracles either.

Bitten or Not So Much? LMPTM shooting script up at Psyche's! -- Rob, 10:13:12 04/04/03 Fri

"SPIKE
...before I kill you.

He grabs Wood's shirt, yanks him up and bites into him..."

So that answers that question!

Rob

[> LMPTM spoiler in above post. -- Rob, 10:14:13 04/04/03 Fri

[> I don't think so. -- Sophist, 10:59:07 04/04/03 Fri

It's clear they didn't follow the shooting script, because they deliberately left it ambiguous. I've re-watched it and there's no way to tell for sure.

[> [> Re: I don't think so. -- Darby, 11:02:48 04/04/03 Fri

Even if he had said it (I thought he had), making the threat doesn't mean that he had to do it. If I were to grab someone by the neck and declare that I was going to kill them, I think I'm allowed to not go through with it.

[> [> [> Re: I don't think so. -- Rob, 11:06:58 04/04/03 Fri

"If I were to grab someone by the neck and declare that I was going to kill them, I think I'm allowed to not go through with it."

Actually, I checked the official rules. You're not allowed. ;o)

Rob

[> [> [> [> You're talking Australian rules, Rob. In American ones, you are allowed. Plus instant replay. -- Random, 11:10:47 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Of course you're not allowed. -- Honorificus (Who Knows All The Rules But Ignores Them), 11:51:13 04/04/03 Fri

It cuts your credibility terribly. That's the first lesson my secondary mother taught me when I was but a babe: if you make death threats, always follow through. Then she demonstrated by killing her favorite minion. I never forgot her lesson, and even thanked her for it before I did away with her years later.

[> [> [> [> [> they should film your story and air it every Christmas -- JBone - who heard that line somewhere before, 15:35:30 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> It sounds like something Bill Murray would say. -- Rochefort, 20:45:36 04/04/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It IS something Xander said -- Masq, 15:17:02 04/05/03 Sat

[> Sorry Rob - but the posting of shooting scripts doesn't prove a thing -- Dochawk, 12:00:11 04/04/03 Fri

Unless they post a copy of the final script you can't make any judgements. Most of the time the script that psyche posts are not the final scripts. Frequently the director and their first AD are the only two people who have an actual complete copy of the script used to make the final product and even then sometimes they will shoot a scene two or more different ways and decide which way to go in the editing room. So its evidence, its not proof.

Help! - Instances of Divine Intervention on BtVS? Spoilers/Spec for BtVS & AtS- IO -- Angelina, 10:39:01 04/04/03 Fri

I am asking for help in ascertaining the presence of �Divine Intervention� in the Buffyverse. The only instance of actual Divine Intervention that I have seen on Buffy, was in Amends, when �something� caused the snow to block out the sun so Angel wouldn�t walk into the light, and thus, self destruct. I use the word �something� since on Angel, reference has always been made to �The Powers That Be. However, reference of a Higher Power has rarely, if ever, been used on Buffy. It has always seemed to me, that Buffy and her cohorts, used whatever methods were available to them, be it mortal or magics, but did not ever rely on a Higher Power. They have avoided each �End of the World As We Know It� all on their own, through their own devices, most notably with The Power of Love, as seen in The Gift and Grave, CPR as seen in Prophecy Girl, etc. I have also thought that perhaps the �dream sequences� between Buffy and Faith, as well as the ones involving the First Slayer, could be some form of Divine Intervention as well, since some of these �visions� prophesied things to come, i.e. Dawn.

Of course, I can be totally wrong about this, and would appreciate any comments from this Board, which is so well versed in Buffy Mythology.

As we have seen in the last Angel episode, Inside Out, The Powers That Be, have intervened in the Angelverse, by sending Darla to try to sway Connor into making the �right� choice. Unfortunately, Connor did not heed Darla�s/TPTB pleas. (Jerk - couldn�t help myself - hee)

Have we seen any Divine Intervention on Buffy this season? I think we might have. In Conversations with Dead People, Dawn was visited by the essence of her mother, Joyce, or by �something� that was using Joyce�s facade in order to soothe Dawn into listening to its warnings. In this instance, Joyce was not allowed to finish her warning to Dawn, and we are left with the cryptic �she won�t choose you - in the end, Buffy will be against you�. Now, while that could mean exactly what it says, I feel that the warning was not completed, the FE, or whatever was intentionally blocking the appearance of Joyce, would not allow Joyce to finish. As such, I cannot be assured that what we saw was the manifestation of the FE. It could very well have been �Divine Intervention� in the form of Joyce. I am bringing this up only because of my speculation, that since Buffy and Angel seem to be mirroring each other this season, and since TPTB have seen fit to interfere in Angel�s earthly doings during their Apocalypse, that some form of Higher Power will indeed make an appearance on Buffy to aide in their own Apocalypse (which I am thinking will be one and the same). So, does anyone have any thoughts on this, and most importantly, any evidence of past Divine Intervention in the Buffyverse? Thanks.

[> One Other Possible Instance? -- frisby, 10:49:14 04/04/03 Fri

What about the fact that a young girl is chosen or selected to be The Slayer (with the strength and skill to fight the vampires, demons, and forces of darkness)? Is she chosen by the Powers that Be? And if so, is that divine intervention for the purpose of preventing darkness from triumphing over humanity?

[> [> Re: One Other Possible Instance? -- Dannyblue, 11:22:39 04/04/03 Fri

I always thought it was strange that, of all the potential Slayers in the world, the one who was about to move to Sunnydale, the Hellmouth (which was about to get a lot more active than it had been in the past) was the next one chosen.

Also, Angel moving to Sunnydale in the first place was "arranged" by the Higher Powers. They had Whistler dig him out of the alley, and showed him a newly called Buffy at her most vulnerable, which made him want to help her. So, he went to Sunnydale.

As we learn later, the Powers thought Angel had to be in Sunnydale to stop Acathla from sucking the world into Hell, so they created a situation that would put him in "the right place at the right time". What they didn't know, apparantly, was that Angel would lose his soul and be the one who activated Acathla in the first place.

So, while the Powers seem to see the big picture (someone is going to activate Acathla, and the vampire with a soul will somehow be involved), is it possible they miss out on the details?

[> [> Re: One Other Possible Instance? -- Dannyblue, 11:24:14 04/04/03 Fri

I always thought it was strange that, of all the possible Slayers in the world, the one who was about to move to Sunnydale, the Hellmouth (which was about to get a lot more active than it had been in the past) was the next one chosen.

[> [> [> Free Will and the PtB -- Angel, 15:46:24 04/04/03 Fri

I agree with the "missing out on the details" part. I think that the PtB, like most of the seers, can only get vague impressions of what's to come, instead of the specifics.

Could that be the free will element coming into play? If the situation is going to happen anyway but the outcome depends on particular actions of particular individuals at particular times, that could be why the details always seem to be off. Like the Butterfly Effect, the smallest changes can escalate until they change the entire meaning or outcome of the situation: just like Angel and Acathla. It was free will that brought Angel and Buffy together for the "moment of true happiness" -- that night's decisions were nothing to do with the grander scheme. (One could argue, in this case, that Jenny Calendar was an unknowing instrument of the PtB as well as Kalderash vengeance; she was trying to keep them apart, right before the chaos began....)

I'm sure there were more instances; I'm racking my brain as we speak.

[> [> [> [> Re: Divinity Not Free Will and the PtB -- Angelina, 16:09:40 04/04/03 Fri

I am not sure that divine intervention had anything to do with Buffy coming to Sunnydale, or Angel's arrival there or even Giles' for that matter. Perhaps fate it a better word, or perhaps the Watcher's Council was keeping track of Buffy's movements and kinda of "pushed" her move to Sunnydale - someone "offering" Joyce a great opportunity in Sunnydale? When I say divine I mean like "GOD." Like the purest of the pure, the maker of all things. Pure Goodness, if you will. The Powers That Be, are like you said Angel, SEERS, they are NOT God. The closest thing to an actual presence or feeling of "God" that I've seen, is the visitation of Joyce. That had all the elements of a "holy" apparition. That is what I am talking about. I wonder if "God" will make an appearance at "the end of days." Even the concept of "The Slayer" is not from God, but from Man - Shamans made the Slayer from Demons that walked the earth in the beginning of days. Again, God had nothing to do with it. It's all so very interesting. No?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Divinity Not Free Will and the PtB -- ceej, 05:46:01 04/05/03 Sat

>....God had nothing to do with it...

I disagree. The very cocnept of God is that he is the Creator, hence he created everything, which includes the Slayer and so forth. I guess this argument is really dependent on how you view God. Did He create the universe and after that just sorta stepped back and watch it grow etc or is He always there shaping outcomes. My definition of God is a sempiternal being: He has always existed, exists now and will always exist. He ominiscient a being knows everything that is and ever will be cuz he has divine foreknowledge.

Honestly I have an issue with the concept that God has foreknowledge of everything, all the facts about somebody's life even before they are born its very incompatable with the concept of "human free will". But thats a new topic all together.

[> Questions of Divinity. -- M., 11:44:57 04/04/03 Fri

When You mention �Amends� two other possible cases of divine intervention come to mind. In �Becoming II� Willow seems to be possessed by something that helps to re- soul Angel. Secondly at the end of �Faith, Hope, and Trick� we have Angels miraculous return from hell. The F.E. takes credit for this in �Amends� but there is no reason to believe this, and if it was not the doing of F.E., it may have been divine. It is significant that all of these events of possible divine intervention revolve around Angel.

Depending on how we define �Divine� intervention it is either very rare, or very common in the Buffyverse. Since Willow became a witch she has been seen any number of times calling upon higher powers (gods) and receiving aid. This is usually classified as �magic� but it is technically she is appealing to (invoking) various deities.

[> [> Re: Questions of Divinity. -- Ceej, 06:47:54 04/05/03 Sat

>Since Willow became a witch she has been seen any number of times calling upon higher powers (gods) and receiving aid. This is usually classified as �magic� but it is technically she is appealing to (invoking) various deities.

I agree. Also, Will's magick is a good example of how the Buffyverse is a melting pot of various religions, beliefs and lore. She's called on many Gods and higher planed beings from many cultures and beliefs. Does that then mean Osiris and Hecate do exsist?? Yes it does (in the Buffyverse). The Buffyverse is a Polytheistic universe, so "God" could most likely make a cameo.

So its hard to really point out what is what since there is no one blief system-but a melting of all. Plus, wouldn't Glory count as a divine being? Or even the newly born Jasmine... One could even go as far as arguing the FE is a divine being.

Free Will (spoilers Inside Out and Get it Done) -- lunasea, 13:10:25 04/04/03 Fri

When Faith said that she "Rolled the bones..." I immediately thought of Rush. When Connor was approached by Darla, the song "Free Will" went through my head. As Neil Peart says in "The Spirit of Radio" "The words of the profits were written on the studio wall, Concert hall."

Free Will

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance. (Lilah/WR&H)

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive (what did Skip say)
"The stars aren't aligned -
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive. (Spike)

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. (The PTB)
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. (Connor)
You can choose from phantom fears (the First) and kindness that can kill (Jasmine?);
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them - they weren't born in Lotus-Land. (poor Angel)

All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate. (What happened to the First Slayer)
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In Heaven's unearthly estate. (Can we say Buffy)

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

Each of us-
A cell of awareness-
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet. (Giles and Wesley)

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

[> Re: Free Will (spoilers Inside Out and Get it Done) -- LittleBit, 17:04:32 04/04/03 Fri

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive

This makes me think of Willow ... how she is still working to truly understand the powers she can harness, at times being used by them as much as using them; and also her earlier choices as to how she wielded that power, manipulating the lives and thoughts of others, both selfishly regarding her friends and capriciously toward others.

No Human is An island (Spoilers up Btvs LMPTM and ATs Inside Out) -- shadowkat, 14:56:13 04/04/03 Fri

Somewhat scared to post this, it may seem nuts. But here goes. It's 22 pages. Sorry. I tend to be verbose as you all know. For those who saw me briefly in chat? This was what I was trying to get out but didn't know how. ;-)

No Human is an Island, entire of itself

Before I begin, I ask for your indulgence on what is going to seem like a really odd post from me. It�s neither a review nor for that matter a character comparison and it�s way too disconnected and rambling to fit the definition of academic essay. It�s an exploration of a germ of an idea or rather a theory that�s been bugging me.

This theory may or may not actually be valid. It could be a projection from stuff going on inside me. It could on the other hand be so obvious to everyone else, that I�m an idiot for not getting it before now. In other words, one of those, duh, shadowkat, where have you been moments? I have been feeling a little disconnected lately, very wired � due to too much sugar � my sister-in-law is right sugar is the root of all evil � and well a tad at loose ends, as if I have no control over anything and no will of my own. So perhaps this is the root of my theory. This feeling that everything is connected when I feel I�m really not?

The poet John Donne wrote: �No man is an island, entire of it selfe; every man is a peace of the Continent, a part of the maine; if Clod be washed away by the Sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of they friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.�

My book club recently discussed the novel Kindred. Now before you all pooh-pah the book club, it�s not your ordinary book club. We don�t meet so much to discuss the book as to well connect. We eat, drink wine, and discuss just about everything. We have no clear rules and often talk over one another. The book is just the means to bring us together. (Not unlike Btvs and Ats is for those of us who visit the Atpo board come to think of it.) Kindred by Octavia Butler is the story of a woman who for no clear reason is drug back through time to save the life of a horrible slave owner, who also happens to be her direct ancestor. Each time she saves his life so that she can exist, she goes through the morale dilemma of whether she should have. Wouldn�t the world, not to mention the slaves have been better off if the slave owner died? Is her life so important that she should hurt others by saving him? One woman in the book club saw this as a major flaw in the book � why was it so important for this character to live? Why did she keep saving this bastard? After all she has no children, she isn�t a genius, she isn�t President nor affects either of those things directly. Wouldn�t it have made more sense for her to kill this evil man or let him die than continue to exist? How selfish is that? But � the woman meets one of the man�s slaves and that slave conveys to her that if it weren�t for her and the slave owner�s continued existence � all the slaves would have been sold and separated from their families or killed. By keeping the slave owner alive, the character saved countless lives.

There is an old science fiction story � I believe written by Issac Asimov, not certain, about a man who travels back in time and makes the mistake of stepping on a butterfly. Because of this tiny action � when he returns to his own time and the world has completely changed, nothing is as he left it.

We all have a purpose. It may not seem important to us. We may not see ourselves as connected to each other in any way. But each moment we draw breath, type on a computer or walk out the door we are affecting the universe and all that lives within it. The mere act of writing this post and posting it on the internet � does affect lives and attitudes. I don�t control how it does of course, all I can control is whether I write it and whether I decide to post it. I can�t control who reads it and how they react to it or what they think of me or the show because of it. Am I responsible for their reactions? Only to the extent that I am responsible for the post. What I do affects others. What others do affects me. But free will and choice enter into that connection.

Now what does all this have to do with Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series? Well it has to do with an epiphany I had recently that flipped both shows upside down in my mind and put my finger on what was bugging me about certain character�s actions. It changed my mind about some things I wrote in both the Storyteller review and my authority essay. It may be completely wacked � I don�t know. It could be the result of way too much sugar. Or frustration with the War, my life, etc. Then again, perhaps I�m on to something.

One last request, if I may? I�m going to ask a ton of questions and focus on parts of episodes leaving other parts out. Granted we can read whatever we want into this show and manipulate text to fit our own theories � so it could very well be that�s what I�m unconsciously doing here. I don�t know. That�s why I�m sharing this with you all, so maybe you can tell me? Also I need you to look at it with an open- mind, to let go of all your ships, let go of what you want to see in the shows. Let go of all of it for just a second. Just for a second. (If it�s possible, I�m not sure if it is.) It�s when I did that one thing � that this idea came to me. It could be completely wacked. Who knows.

Comics, Movies and Btvs/Ats

This section is split in three parts: 1. Comics 2. Movies and 3.The season finales of each series all the way up to present. Focusing on the similarities between each.

I. Comics � the connections in the comics

In some recent posts on the board, people have been asking what Btvs has in common with the world of Marvel Comics and science fiction/fantasy adventure movies. So I began to run them through my mind. Then I started comparing Marvel to DC and that�s when something started nag at my brain.

In the Marvel Universe � the same story is often repeated over and over again from different angles. The story usually deals with either a reasonably good person who has been corrupted by power in some way (or an evil entity who just manipulates all the gray characters to do its will). With the best of intentions � they assemble a group of loyal disciples who sort of follow them without question in order to bend the world to their order. They don�t think of themselves as necessarily evil, well sometimes, but generally speaking, in their point of view, they are doing good. Killing a few to save the many. The good guys who also have a lot of power, group together to try and stop this evil villain without killing it. If the villain is pure evil? Yeah they will try to kill it but like Dracula in Buffy vs. Dracula, it always comes back. So they just cut it off from everything. What�s important to remember about Marvel heroes is they seldom are happy with all this power nor in most cases are they considered heroes. They tend to be outcastes. Their power curses them and sets them apart from others. The villain is someone who doesn�t care about being an outcast and considers him or herself to be above everyone else. The group defeats the villain en mass, by combining their talents and abilities. If the villain is a human whose power corrupted it, they strip or drain the villain, if it is something other than human and irredeemable they imprison it or find a way of making it destroy itself. But their connection and love and compassion for each other is more often than not what saves the day. This is the case in all the huge crossover stories. (If you follow the Marvelverse � most notably: the M�Krann Crystal tale, Dark Phoenix, Ages of Apocalypse, Acts of Vengeance, the Goblin Queen, the imprisonment of Cthon in Wundergore Mountain by the Avengers, and the whole Magneto Saga.) I can�t do a thorough analysis of DC comics since I�ve only read a few of them here and there. But from what I have read, DC�s characters seem to embrace power more, seem to be less of social outcastes and seem to view themselves as champions, above it all.

The DC and Marvelverse characters also differ in how the characters look at power. Marvel characters often see power as a sort of burden or curse. Something they would love to reverse or overcome. The Thing in the Fantastic Four is a human who due to gamma rays has been transformed into a rock like thing. The Incredible Hulk is a scientist who while working on anger management, has been transformed by gamma rays to become a monster every time he gets furious at something. One character in the Marvelverse, Rogue, can�t touch anyone without taking their life force from them, so she wears long gloves. On numerous occasions she contemplates having someone remove her powers completely but this could only happen at great cost to her life. Wolverine is a character who started out a weak, feeble boy who was always sick, and devoted to his parents. When his mutant powers kick in, he is cursed with razor sharp claws and a healing factor, he accidentally kills a man and goes insane. Later he is captured by the government and implants are placed in his head to control him. When he breaks free of these implants, he discovers he also was triggered by the government or Weapon X project to kill. When we first meet him he is wild, unreliable, smokes up a storm, and has a berzeker rage. He is like his codename Wolverine. And he is as close to immortal as a mutant can be. Born literally around the turn of the century. (See Wolverine Series called Origin). Half the time he�s not sure if he�s man or beast. Each of these characters feel like humanity�s rejects, freaks, but they find others and team up with them. They find companionship and love. And they strive to help the humans who degrade them, because they feel connected. Killing taints their souls and makes them feel like beasts, even though all have killed and are haunted by it.

In Silver Surfer Comics � Marvel again, Gaea imbued all life with her essence. (Hence the connections the above characters feel.) Gaea is the Elder God who started with the world. She was accompanied by Set and Cthon. Set and Cthon turned evil. Set got killed. Cthon made it to another dimension but keeps trying to return to Gaea�s. Each time he attempts it, heroes imbued with Gaea�s strength stop him and entrap him in towers and caves � stuck, exiled, disconnected. He is unable to physically affect life on earth. But he can manipulate others to work his will. His purpose to break down Gaea�s connections so he can break back into her world.

*******************************

II. Movies: the connections and references in the movies

Both shows have been referencing science fiction and adventure films like crazy this year. Especially Raiders of the Lost Arc, Ghostbusters, Star Wars, Last Crusade, and Wrath of Khan. Outside of the fact that these writers are movie geeks (so am I), I wondered if maybe there was more going on here?

What do all these movies have in common? Well, in each film the hero is faced with a dilemma � whether to destroy or to save something of major importance. Each hero also tends to win the day with a little help from his/her friends. And there is some mystical energy source that is beyond good and evil � it is pure power, raw - the source of all things. Hmmm�this isn�t coming out very clear. I�ll just describe each film and we�ll go from there.

In Raider�s of the Lost Arc (Angel � Souless and Awakenings) � the Arc of the Covenant when opened under the right circumstances is so powerful it will disintegrate anyone who views its treasures. Indy tells his girlfriend to close her eyes, not to look at it, while its raw power literally cleanses everything on the island they are being held captive on. The Arc saves the heroes. Or rather the Arc�s power does. And the power works a little bit like the Judge�s power in Innocence and Surprise � yet instead of destroying all that is good, it destroys all that is evil that arrogantly looks upon it. The Wrath of Gods indeed. When Indy goes after it � he is helped by others � he does not do it alone.

In Indiana Jones & Last Crusade � the Holy Grail provides eternal life. Indy and others search for it. This time Indy is accompanied by his father who is obsessed with finding the Grail. Indy and Dad don�t get along. They are also accompanied by a traitorous blond girl, Elsa, and two old chums of Indy�s. When they find the grail � Indy must go through several obstacles very similar in a way to the obstacles Angel goes through in Awakenings. He does it, not to get the grail for himself, but to save his father�s life. The villain shot his Dad in order to get Indy to locate the Grail. The traitorous blond goes along with the villain until the last possible second when the villain asks her to pick the right cup, she deliberately picks the wrong one so the villain will die and Indy will succeed and get the right one back to his father. When Indy returns the cup to Dad and heals him, his father forces Indy to leave the cup behind � because reaching for the power within it � the immortality leads to certain death. The grail can never leave the citadel they found it in. You can either stay with it forever and be immortal or leave and live your life. Either be connected to humanity or stay immortal disconnected from it forever.

In Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom� the magic stones can bring wealth and water to the village or blood and destruction depending on which Goddess is invoked � Shiva or Kali. (This is in the movie mythologists, not from me so don�t blast me on how off Spielberg and Lucas are.) Blood of Kali drives the men insane, drives them to kill. Fire from Shiva cleanses them of this insanity. Indy goes briefly insane by being forced to drink the blood, his friend Short Round saves him by burning him, cleanses the evil from his system. Again we get the cleansing power of fire.

Star Wars (repeatedly in Btvs)� in Return of The Jedi, Luke manages to redeem his father, by refusing to kill him, refusing to give into the desire for vengeance and hate, instead he loves his father, sees the good in him. Darth seeing the love in his son�s eyes turns against the evil Emperor finally and sacrifices himself in destroying him. The Emperors electrical power goes through Darth and kills him.

In Ghostbusters (Btvs in Killer in Me)� the four heroes must join together and cross their energy streams pointing them into an evil portal in order to destroy the bad guy. Crossing the energy streams could kill them. But they must trust their connection to each other to win the day. (hmmm cleansing power of electronic energy or fire again.)

Wrath of Khan (LMPTM shooting script and briefly in episode) is the second and in my humble opinion one of the best, if not the best, of the Star Trek movies. In this movie, Khan, a superhuman, has been exiled on a horrible planet with his family and cut off from all society. He blames the deaths of his wife and daughter on Captain Kirk � they had been killed by worms that drilled their way into their brains, parasites. Captain Kirk exiled Khan on this planet and his wife chose to join him there. Khan blames Kirk for these deaths. Kirk is also dealing with his own son and an ex-wife who created a powerful entity called Genesis. Project Genesis recreates the big bang, literally creating a universe down to the last microcosm. Khan wants Project Genesis so he can create a new better world for himself and his children and he wants to kill Kirk in the process. To make a long story short � in order to defeat Khan, Kirk must work with his crew and outsmart Khan, he also must find a way of reuniting with his disgruntled adult son. Khan sets off Genesis on the Enterprise, Kirk�s best friend and confidante Spock manages to contain the project long enough to get it off the ship but the resulting radiation kills him. Kirk sends Spock�s body into the Genesis Project that Khan had activated and Spock set out into Space. Spock is reborn by the project and through a mind meld in the third installment of the series Search For Spock � becomes a new man. Kirk realizes at the end of the movie that the power of life is our connections to each other, what makes us human is the attachments we make.

All four films have either been mentioned directly in the shows or shooting scripts. There are others I could describe in detail but this would become a book.

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III. Btvs and Ats. A run down of the season finales � this is shorthand guys. I deliberately have left stuff out. I�m just doing enough of a summary to highlight similar themes between the shows, the movies and comics above. Looking for a pattern.

1. Season 1: The Master is stuck in the hellmouth. Buffy�s blood frees him. Buffy knocks out Giles and goes down to face the Master by herself. She gets bitten. Her blood frees him and kills her. But that�s not the end of it. The guy she rejected, puts his hurt feelings aside and enlists the help of the ensouled vampire he hates to save her. The guy, Xander, brings Buffy back to life. Together along with their other friends, they save the world, kill the Master, and close the hellmouth. What does Buffy do wrong? She initially goes off alone. What does Buffy do right? She made friends who love her enough to put aside their differences to bring her back to life and help save the world.

2. Season 2: Angel turns evil and attempts to open a portal to hell. Again blood opens it. This time it�s Angel�s. And it�s on his hand. (Reminds me of Connor using the blood of an innocent victim with his hand to wake up Cordy�s baby in Inside Out). Before he does this � he manages to separate Buffy from her friends. He wants her to be all alone. And he succeeds. She is framed for murder, expelled from school, her mother finds out she�s a slayer, and her friends are injured or being tortured because she was distracted fighting Angel but not killing him in hopes that Willow could return his soul. She is helped in her fight against Angel by a vampire and the guy who liked her � again. This time the vampire, Spike, approaches her and offers to help save the world. He has no soul but he feels connected enough to the human world and human things including his girlfriend (albeit a vampire), dog racing, soccer, cigarettes and well humans themselves that he is motivated to save it. He doesn�t want hell on earth. Granted he also has a bone to pick with Angelus and he wants things to go back to the way they were. So Spike enables Buffy to keep her watcher alive. He helps her defeat Dru and enables her to only fight Angel not five vamps. (Angel is right she could not have taken on two vamps, Dru and Angel by herself.) But Buffy is alone in the end. Cut off. With only herself. Angel asks her what she is going to do now, who does she have left. Me, she states and stops him, sending him to hell just as Willow gives him back his soul. She kills an ensouled being that she loved. Feeling disconnected from everything and everyone, she leaves town. Goes to hell herself. Both Spike and Angel also visit hells. Spike the one where Dru forsakes him and he�s cast off, disconnected. And Angel the hell dimension where he�s disconnected from all humanity. All three pay for their crimes. The gang meanwhile is still connected to each other � fighting side by side. What did Buffy do wrong? She went to fight Angel by herself leaving her friends alone. (You never learn says Angel). What does Buffy do right? She makes a truce with Spike and accepts Xander�s help to stop Angel. She doesn�t do it alone. She also accepts Willow�s help. Giles is saved as a result and Angel is stopped.

3. Season 3 � The Mayor � who lords himself above everyone. He wants to Ascend. (Does this remind you of anyone else? Yep, Cordelia in Angel the Series.) The Mayor has disconnected himself from humans, is afraid of getting germs and obsessed with cleanliness. Yet he hasn�t disconnected himself completely. He makes a connection with Faith, one human. This one connection to his humanity is what eventually undoes him. It is his one weakness. Buffy manages to defeat him by using that against him � she also gets everyone to chip in and help and she uses fire to kill him. What does Buffy do right? She uses the connections both her own and the mayor�s to her advantage. What does she do wrong? She tries to kill Faith in order to save Angel. She gives into the need for vengeance. Her attack on Faith disconnects them. But the connection is not completely severed, Buffy by giving her own blood to Angel in a sense re-connects them and Faith shares the secret to the Mayor�s downfall in a dream.

4. Season 4 � Adam is created by humans yet completely cut off from them. He forms his own cult of disciples, appealing to those beings, who feel as cut off as he does. The vampires who can�t be part of the human world or truly part of the demon one. But as much as he gets the outcasts feelings, he doesn�t grasp what it means to be connected. He only grasps the feeling of being disconnected and pushes for that. He doesn�t grasp how Riley would find the strength to take out his own chip. And he certainly doesn�t get the uberslayer Buffy becomes. He does not understand the source of their power. He can�t. What does Buffy do right? She joins with her friends, allows them to aid her, and connects. She uses her connections. What did Buffy almost do wrong? She tried to do it alone and it almost backfired on her. In the true finale of the Season, Restless, the connection between the four friends is threatened by the First Slayer who enters their nightmares to disconnect them. In this episode � Buffy reasserts what it means to be human and what is the most important to her � living in the world and remaining a part of it and being with her friends. (More on this episode later).

5. Angel Season 1: Meanwhile over on Angel: Angel learns that a vampire with a soul could become human some day. Except the gang learns how far Angel is from becoming human, since Angel is not a part of the human world. He keeps himself separated from it. He wants nothing that is human outside of maybe blood. He neither eats, drinks, smokes, or desires human companionship. He is disconnected. To emphasize this � Darla is brought back human in a box and she couldn�t be more connected to human problems and desires. Wes gets hurt because he�s alone, isolated in the office at AI. The demons summoned by Wolfram and Hart � steal back the scroll revealing the prophecy and blow up AI. They turn Cordelia�s visions against her � so she is overwhelmed by everyone�s pain and suffering � another metaphor for feeling a deep connection. Cordy is overwhelmed by the connection. The oracles � which the Angel gang depend on to guide them are destroyed. They feel cut off from their calling. Angel tries to stop W&H, the bad guys, from raising Darla, by cutting off Lindsey�s hand and taking back the scroll, but he�s too late. (An aside: The cut off hand ironically is sewn on the next season and re-connects Lindsey to the human race � he was cut off before, seeing only his own needs, but getting someone else�s hand makes him feel empathy for others. So that he leaves W&H and possibly rejoins humanity.) At the end of the episode, all three main characters are cut off from their home and their calling.

6. In Season 5 � Btvs, The hell-god Glory is trapped in a human prison. A prison (Ben) that is ironically dedicated to saving lives and works as a resident in a hospital. While Glory sucks the cohesive energy that connects parts of the human brain to maintain her sanity, Ben calls a queller demon to suffocate the traumatized humans she�s damaged. (Note this energy may be what connects humans to their souls, which is the reason she can�t suck Spike�s brain, he has no energy?) Interesting � the energy that Glory takes is what makes us able to connect with each other, when she sucks the energy out, the humans are all connected to her insanity, they have echoes of her in their heads. She reconnects them to her, so they become her brainless yet loyal disciples, and keep her sane. When Dawn�s presence breaks down the barrier Ben and Glory, (possibly because Dawn as the key is this energy in its purest form and it�s the energy that causes Glory to break apart?) Glory becomes connected to humanity in Ben/her human prison, and starts to feel compassion for Dawn. Just as Ben becomes connected to Glory and starts to feel responsible for her acts. Dawn appears in some way to reinforce the humanity in everyone she is around � she seems to act as a power conduit for that humanity. At least she reinforces it in Glory � to the extent that Glory ensures Dawn is kept far away from her. The Knights of Byzantine and later Giles � both wish to kill Dawn, for different reason than Glory, they wish to do it to save the world. The Knights as a preemptive strike. Giles as a last resort. This wish is what separates Buffy from her mentor. Buffy sees Dawn as her connection to humanity, as, in a sense, all of their connection to humanity. Through Dawn, she has viewed a more human side of Spike. Through Dawn, she sees her own humanity reinforced. To kill Dawn in Buffy�s view may very well be akin to killing her own humanity � what connects her to everyone. Giles believes that the majority, the world comes first no matter the cost. Buffy sees these choices as too great. Do we sacrifice our soul, our humanity, for a greater cause? If so? What then? Do we win? She certainly didn�t feel like she won in Becoming. Ironically Ben saves Giles, only to be killed by Giles. And Giles kills Ben in the same way the queller demon Ben summoned kills Glory�s victims, through suffocation. Their means of connecting with life. Giles believes if he kills Ben, Glory will cease to exist. It does not matter to Giles what good Ben could have done, all that matters is what evil Glory may still do. To Giles Ben is expendable. Buffy, on the other hand, chooses to die rather than to kill Dawn who she feels connects her to her own humanity. She closes the mystical portals or connections, Dawn�s blood/life force opened with her own life force. Her death draws the others together, bonds them. Even Spike. Just as Dawn�s predicament drew them all together. Each one with the exception of Giles, risks their life in a small way to save someone else. Anya dashes in front of falling brick to save Xander. Xander uses a ball bearer to save Buffy from Glory. Spike risks his life to save Dawn. Willow risks her life to save Tara. Tara risks her life to save Dawn two episodes earlier. Their human connections to one another help save the world. What did Buffy/group do wrong? Buffy cuts herself off and goes catatonic. Giles kills Ben and suggests killing Dawn. Willow tries to go after Glory alone in Tough Love. What did they do right? They worked together. They became a team. Buffy couldn�t have done it by herself. Buffy gives her life so humanity can live.

7. Meanwhile over in Angel: Season 2. The Pylea arc. Angel and gang have become completely disconnected from their reality and are now in another one. In Pylea Angel thinks he�s normal now and a hero. Except when he vamps out and the monster manifests entirely. He soon discovers he is even more of an outcast here, not connected to the human slaves and not connected to the demons running the place. And he is also quickly separated from his friends. Cordelia is having a similar experience. She is the princess, but completely separated from everyone, from the humans on the planet, her friends, even the demons. The only people she sees are evil monks. (Sort of similar to poor Dawn in the gift, dressed in princess robes, about to be sacrificed, and only seeing evil monks.) Lorne who dreaded returning to his home dimension, Pylea is also completely disconnected. Ironic since prior to this he�d been disconnected from his home, family and own kind. At home, he feels more like an outcaste and more disconnected than he does in Angel�s world. In Pylea he is literally disconnected from his body, his friends, and his art. Wes, like Giles in The Gift, decides to send a few men to their deaths to save the many. He justifies it to Gunn, stating freedom is worth a few deaths. Gunn argues that this is too great a cost. That there�s a better way. We don�t fight evil by doing it ourselves. Fred meanwhile has been hiding from the world in a cave, not unlike the cave-like walls of the books she once hid in, one of which brought her there. She finally comes out of her exile in the caves and helps Cordelia, gets caught, saved by Angel, who she in return helps reunite with his friends and together they all free the humans in that dimension. What did the group do wrong? They disconnected from one another. They did not work together. Some members placed themselves above others. Some hid. What did they do right? They began to work together. They listened to each other and as a result found the way home. Oh, one more ironic point � when they return, they discover Buffy�s dead, they�ve been so disconnected from their own world they had no clue what was happening in it.

8. Season 6 on Btvs: Willow turns evil when Tara is taken from her. All season long, we watch as the characters slowly split off from one another. Hurt each other. Break the bonds and connections they�d built over past seasons. They attempt to reunite, but it is almost too late and things explode in their face. Tara is shot. Spike attempts to rape Buffy and is so overwhelmed by self-loathing for what he tried to do, he leaves town. Xander leaves Anya at the altar and watches as Warren shoots Buffy. Buffy beats up Spike and all her friends and neglects Dawn. Dawn steals from everyone. Willow mind-swipes Tara and attempts to use magic for her own ends regardless of the cost, when things get out of hand she treats it as an addiction and just goes cold turkey, disconnecting herself. The Trioka are so cut off from humanity and so closeted off in their own make-believe worlds that they don�t seem to realize the dire consequences of their own crimes until it is too late. Each act they do, cuts them off further. Until, ironically the one thing Andrew and Jonathan and Warren want most seems to be forever outside their grasp � a connection to others. To be loved and respected.
When Warren severs Willow�s connection to love, Willow loses it and kills Warren. Willow severs Warren�s connection to life and in doing so almost severs her own. If there was ever an anti-vengeance arc on Btvs � this was it. Vengeance severs our connection to life. It connects us to death and the forces that wish to corrupt life. We see this through Willow in Grave and Two-To-Go. Her vengeance and grief has twisted her power to darkness, so that she is no longer in control, the pain is. When Giles returns � he gives Willow a power that reconnects her to humanity, makes it possible for her to feel humanity, but the power overwhelms her just as Cordy�s visions way back in Shanshu in La overwhelmed her. As a result, Willow goes insane. She feels everything and everyone. At the same time, Spike fights to gain the spark, to regain his won connection to life, to humanity. Once he gets it, it overwhelms him, drives him slightly insane. Like Willow and Cordy, he feels everything. But in his case it is limited to everyone he�s killed and everything he�s done. The guilt and pain and suffering overwhelms him, and he screams in pain. Back to Willow, it is Xander who breaks through Willow�s madness with his simple human plea of love, unconditional love, which reminds her of who she is and reconnects her to the human world. By the end of Grave, all the characters have been reconnected in some way to humanity - to the life force that resides in all of us. What did the gang do wrong? They split apart. They stopped confiding in each other or supporting one another. They gave into acts of vengeance and spite. They became disconnected. What does the gang do right? They reunite. They hunt the connections and reaffirm them. They forgive each other and themselves. They re-connect to life and move away from death.

9. Angel Season 3 � While the Buffy gang is reconnecting, the Angel gang is coming apart at the seams. (A quick aside: In case you haven�t been watching Angel, there is a huge difference between the two shows. In Btvs � there really is no higher being who guides Buffy or helps her save the day. The only time the higher being appears is to help Angel and it doesn�t really � it just well, a) gets him involved with Buffy (Whistler in Becoming) or b) keeps him alive by letting it snow on a hot day. Outside of those two times, we never see or experience the higher being on the Buffyverse. In Angel, the Powers that Be are referred to so often, they�ve literally become a regular character on the show. And they seem to give Angel all his direction. Angel�s connection to humanity, to doing good works, seems to come partly from them. If it weren�t for the powers? Well the mind boggles.) But back to the point � in Tomorrow, outside forces successfully break the Angel team apart. Angel ends up at the bottom of the sea courtesy of his son Connor. Cordelia ascends to some mystical realm, believing that she has finally accomplished it � elevated herself above everyone else, ascended. From Out of Sight, Out of Mind onwards, Cordy is the Homecoming Queen. She wants to be elevated. To ascend in white glowly splendor. There�s only one little problem � she has to give up all her connections to humanity to do it. She has to give up her connection to Angel, whom she loves. While Warren severs Willow�s connection to Tara, Cordelia severs her connection to Angel. She chooses the glory over her connections to life. The difference between Cordy�s choice and Buffy�s in Season 5�s the Gift, is Buffy chooses it to save Dawn�s life, having no clue where she�ll end up. Cordelia chooses it to be a higher being. Angel likewise gets cut-off, but ironically for all the wrong reasons. He chooses to reject vengeance, to actually become involved with humanity, to admit his love for Cordelia. He believes he�s finally gotten everything he wants. But his past crimes and foibles prove to be his undoing. His distrust and exile of Wes � makes it impossible for Wes to look into what�s going on with Cordy. His impulsive desire to hurt Holtz leads Connor to suspect him of killing Holtz. If he hadn�t ignored Cordy�s advice, lied to Connor and run off half-cocked to confront Holtz by himself, Holtz� may not have been able to set him up. Instead he falls right into Holtz�s trap and Connor turns against him. Wes due to a combo of hubris and best intentions (that old the ends justify the means approach to life) � also severs his connections to the team and ends up an outcaste, his only human comfort � the wicked Lilah, with whom he begins a torrid romance. By the end of Angel Season 3, the entire gang is more or less disconnected. They aren�t working together. They don�t trust one another. And the three central members, are gone. What did the Gang do right? Angel didn�t kill Holtz, he went to tell Cordy he loved her. Cordy decided to tell Angel she loved him. What did the gang do wrong? They stopped confiding in and trusting each other. They became disconnected. They let personal grudges and pride get in their way. Angel let Holtz get the better of him and manipulate him. By going after Holtz with vengeance in his heart � he let Holtz� vengeance take the upper hand in his relationship with his son. Just as Willow allows vengeance to take the upper hand in her relationship with Tara, tainting all her relationships as a result.

Notice an interesting pattern emerging? Btvs � they work together, Ats they seem to work at cross-purposes, with a few exceptions. In Btvs, Buffy wins the day by joining with others. She doesn�t really do it alone. And by acting in concert with others, she honors life and renews her connection to humanity. She always acts out of love. In Ats, the characters often acts out of hubris and the need to prove themselves. Angel often goes it alone. When he does ask for their help � he wins the day. Angel counts on a higher power to help him � provide him with clues and fix things. Buffy depends on herself and her friends and doesn�t really believe there is a higher power. Buffy is part of the world. Angel seems to be somewhat disconnected from it. Oh and vengeance? Very bad thing regardless of whether you are a character in a comic book, a movie or a tv show. What cleanses us tends to be mystical energy or fire, possibly the pure glowing fire of the soul, which connects us to each other?

TBC in next part assuming you're still with me. SK

[> part 2: Btvs and Ats compared, souls, and connections (spoilers:LMPTM and Inside Out) -- shadowkat, 15:02:50 04/04/03 Fri

IV. Why is no man an island? LMPTM compared to Inside Out

Okay this part somewhat rambly and has lots of questions � still looking for the patterns.
Getting back to that poem by John Donne. Which may in a sense by the crux of the whole thing.

�No man is an island, entire of it selfe; every man is a peace of the Continent, a part of the maine; if Clod be washed away by the Sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of they friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.�

Compare the comic book heroes Batman to Spiderman � both pretty agile guys. Both very bright. But some huge differences. Batman�s alter ego is a multimillionaire who hides out at a huge mansion, spends very little time with people or humans and operates out of a bat-cave. Any romantic involvement he has is short lived, because he can�t connect to others. The closest he comes to connecting is to his ward, Robin, and to his butler Alfred. He remains apart from the world partly due to a deep-seated anger towards the people who killed his parents. Spiderman � gets his powers by accident. He is also an orphan. But has no memory of his parents. His uncle, who is like a father to him, is killed before his eyes and this changes him in a positive way. He realizes he must take responsibility for his powers and help others. At the same time he stays very connected to life. He is a photographer. Befriends and eventually marries model Mary Jane. His main struggle is with the power inside him and how to use it for good. There are times he wishes he never had it. One superhero is connected to the world, even if that world does not respect his alter-ego and considers his alter-ego a freak, the other superhero is not connected to the world, yet his alter-ego is in league with the police and respected.

First an examination of a few episodes from Buffy and Angel that focus on the need to connect to others, to have your own will and to feel important, not an outcast or zeppo.

1. The Zeppo S3 is about Xander�s feeling of not belonging or being weak, not a part of the group, not important. There�s one major point in that episode that fits in with all the others, it�s what it has in common with The Replacement, Go fish, The Pack, and that one element also flows through all the other episodes and is not specific to the character of Xander. What does Xander want most? And how does he try to get it? Does he get it? Also pay attention to the person (Cordelia) who calls Xander a Zeppo � the meaningless party � what if anything does this character contribute to the group? Is Cordy connected to anyone? Who is the true Zeppo in the story? Is what Cordy tells Xander what she really fears about herself?

2. Another key episode is Who Are You S4 � Faith in this episode is in the same place as Xander in a way. She wants something desperately but is lying to herself about it. When it hits her in the face, she gets discombobulated and changes course. What is it? What happens to Faith when Riley makes love to her? Also how does Faith�s feeling of being disconnected reflect on Buffy? In the episode, Faith comments to Joyce how Buffy hasn�t been around much. Giles can�t tell the two have switched. Only Tara sees it, someone Buffy doesn�t know and has never met � in fact Buffy first meets Tara while in Faith�s body. Both Riley and Spike mistake Faith for Buffy. Buffy spends most of the episode outcast, disconnected from her friends, from her life. When she and Faith finally meet in the church � Faith beats up herself � hating herself for becoming so disconnected and Buffy at the end of the show is left with the bitter taste of what it felt like to be cast off from everything. To be nothing.

3. Superstar � what is the most ironic thing about Jonathan�s actions and desires in this episode and how does it reflect Earshot and what Jonathan tells Andrew in CwDP? Why is it so sad? And what does Jonathan ironically have in common with Cordelia? Jonathan wanted to be a Scooby. He mentions this as his dream to Andrew in CwDP. Andrew goes along with it for a time. Until they stand above the seal and Jonathan tells Andrew how connected he now feels to everyone, his high school buds etc. Andrew says, somewhat cruelly, that these people don�t think about Jonathan and don�t care about him. They probably don�t even remember him. But Jonathan doesn�t care � he feels the connection and that is all that�s important, it makes him feel whole. That�s when Andrew kills him and wakes up the seal. In Superstar � Jonathan desperately w