April 2003 posts

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sun references in "Bring on the Night" -- Nino, 17:55:25 04/22/03 Tue

Anyone notice the mass amounts of references to suns, sunrises, and sunsets in "Bring on the Night"....any thoughts about what these have to do with the First or how Buffy will fight it? I tried to count, there were like 10 mentions...

My analysis of "Magic Bullet" is up -- Masquerade, 22:29:22 04/22/03 Tue


Until I see a shooting script, I'm going to call it "Magic Bullet" instead of "The Magic Bullet", 'cause I think it sounds cooler.

[> Wow! I'm so honored that you quoted me...and such a large one too! Thanks, Masq! Ya made my day! -- Rob, 22:51:23 04/22/03 Tue

[> [> And... (Sacrifice spoiler) -- Rob, 10:07:52 04/24/03 Thu

...luckilly, my theory seems to have held up this week as well, especially when Connor yelled at Angel something like, "I finally have a place where I belong, and you tried to take it away for me!" I was worried it might be disproved in this week's ep, and you'd have to remove it!


[> [> [> Yes, and question for Rob or whoever about Connor's state of mind -- Masq, 11:40:13 04/24/03 Thu

I thought your theory held up, too, Rob. Cordelia's blood cured Connor of the mind-mojo, but he didn't need the mind- mojo to believe.

I think this is what that scene with Jasmine digging her fingernails into his hand was supposed to signify. Jasmine is waxing poetic about the big palace they're going to have in her brave new world and Connor looks kind of like his genetic-sneer broody-boy glum self. He loves Jasmine, but he's mojo-free.

Jasmine sees this, and she either (1) doesn't want to see him unhappy, or (2) ain't taking any chances with a mojo- free champion, or (3) both. So she asks him to "consent" to going back under the mojo again by asking him to "give me your pain". Connor allows her to take his pain away, and he is back under the mojo again. Otherwise, I don't think he would have been talking with Jasmine's voice in the tunnels when he heads in there to find the gang.

Is that how other people saw it?

[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, and question for Rob or whoever about Connor's state of mind -- Rob, 14:13:59 04/24/03 Thu

Well, for starters, this scene reminded me a lot of the glowy Cordy taking away Connor's anger and confusion from "Benediction." I wonder whether this link is symbolic only or whether this is an actual metaphysical link between Cordelia's demon powers and Jasmine's. And of course the bloody fingernail cuts carry with them the stigmata symbolism.

I saw her taking his pain away almost as a "battery recharge," kind of like you said. Connor was beginning to question Jasmine, not quite enough to turn on her...but even just starting to show doubt is dangerous to her. I have to watch it again to make sure, but I believe this really started when he grew suspicious about Cordy's whereabouts. So, before Jasmine did this, he was almost behaving the way Faith did when she first turned over to the Mayor but had some reservations about what she was doing, until he charmed her (not magically), with miniature golf the first time, I believe. And while non-brain-zonked Connor still follows her, the fact that he has free will, even though he chose to back Jasmine, is still not safe enough for her, because he could start reasoning and putting two and two together eventually. Which is an interesting comment on the issue...Since, if this is what happened, Jasmine basically rejected what is possibly her first willing follower; she wants complete control even over someone who willingly gave his life over to her.

Am I making any sense here? I think I'm most driven to theorize about "Angel" at the moment, because, as I've told you before, I find the character, Jasmine, and the whole storyline to be one of the most fascinating I've ever seen. Incredibly, even at this point, Jasmine still has utter conviction in her own goodness. Even her "evil" laugh is only her laughing at vanquishing her dissenters. She still believes in her own goodness and that she is doing this for everybody's own good, making her a most interesting and unusual villain. The closest the Buffyverse has come to this is Glory, who did not think "I'm evil mwahahaha" as a villain like Angelus, the Master, the Mayor, or Adam did, but rather, "I want to get home. All these little pests are in my way. So I'll just squash them and get the hell home. So what if their puny little world is destroyed? I'm a goddess." Jasmine has an even bigger twist, because while she also sees the human race as inferior, she is very interested in doing what she sees as being best for them because they are not wise or capable enough to do it or figure it out for themselves. Very heady stuff!


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, and question for Rob or whoever about Connor's state of mind -- Masq, 18:22:16 04/24/03 Thu

Well, for starters, this scene reminded me a lot of the glowy Cordy taking away Connor's anger and confusion from "Benediction." I wonder whether this link is symbolic only or whether this is an actual metaphysical link between Cordelia's demon powers and Jasmine's.

Well, my theory is that Cordelia's "glowy powers" at the end of Season 3 were not glowy "powers" at all, because she couldn't control them. They controlled her. She didn't set out intending to kill the Sluks or to give Connor a soul colonic. The glowy thing just arose out of her spontaneously, and did its thing. My theory is that this "glow" was actually a side-effect of a (meta-)physical transformation her body was going through to prepare her to enter the higher dimension.

And who was preparing her and why? Well, Jasmine, of course. She sent Skip to persuade Cordelia to accept becoming part demon to facilitate this process. It also prepared Cordelia to eventually become pregnant with Jasmine's vessel as well.

Jasmine basically rejected what is possibly her first willing follower; she wants complete control even over someone who willingly gave his life over to her.

This is my take on it as well. Jasmine didn't want free-will Connor (after all, it was hard work for "Cordelia" to control that boy before the shiny happy mojo!), so she put him back under the spell. I don't want what she did to him with the fingernails to be anything more than that. Someone commented above that Connor had now crossed some sort of line, and by giving Jasmine "his pain", he'd given her the last shred of his humanity. This would make him truly lost, truly irredemably Jasmine's. I prefer to think she just put him back under the same spell as everyone else, something he will be freed of whenever Angel and co. get rid of Jasmine.

Of course, Connor's recovery process from that mojo will be more difficult than other people's. He was a true believer.

Incredibly, even at this point, Jasmine still has utter conviction in her own goodness.

I still have my doubts. Something about her makes me wonder how sincere she is, if she doesn't have some as-yet-unknown evil plan up her sleeve. But you and cjl have both commented you think she's sincere. I hope so. That makes her much more interesting as a villian. "I'm here to help you poor little humans for your own good."

I guess it's the fact that she eats people that makes me question her. Of course, ME may have added that people- eating thing to show that Jasmine really does see humans as inferior life forms that she can play with like dolls, but that's part of the problem. There seems a conflict between really caring enough about the human race to want to erase their pain, and being a people-eater on top of it. I can reconcile wanting to help people with putting them under a magic control-mojo. That's just the paternalistic, "I'm controlling you 'cause I know how to make you happy" thing.

But there's something just off about the people-eating thing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, and question for Rob or whoever about Connor's state of mind -- Rob, 19:17:03 04/24/03 Thu

But there's something just off about the people-eating thing.

I'm having a little bit of difficulty with that, too, although I believe it perhaps may be a "greater good" sort of thing with her. She needs humans to survive, so it's for the good of the rest of them that these few become her lunch. And what a small price to pay for the glorious future she will bring them!

Then, of course, on the other hand, we have the Beast blotting out the sun, destroying thousands of people with a rain of fire, the killing of an innocent girl (whose parents at the moment, ironically, wouldn't even care; in fact, would be proud if they found out that she died to bring Jasmine into the world) as well as hunting down and slaughtering the W&H lawyers. Well, I guess I can see how Jasmine would justify the slaughter as good, because W&H lawyers are evil, but more than just evil people died as a result of her "labor pains." So in that respect I do see what you mean re: Jasmine. It's very hard to judge her right now, especially since all the evidence before she arrived screamed "evil!" and now it's hard what to think. Btw, I think that little girl speaking in Jasmine's voice, at the gas station, was the creepiest thing. Ever.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, on that pre-Inside Out stuff -- Masq, 21:10:26 04/24/03 Thu

A lot of it could have been "Cordelia"'s idea, that is, the real Cordelia under the Shiny-Happy mojo influence of Jasmine tells the Beast to do things or does things herself she believes are in the best interest of protecting baby Jasmine until she comes into the world.

One thing you need to do is get those clever lawyers out of the way before they muck everything up trying to get a piece of the action.

The rain of fire and the blotting out the sun is to get Angel Investigation's attention. Make them desperate enough to bring forth Angelus.

Angelus needs to be out because believe it or not, he's less of a threat to Cordelia's pregnancy than Angel is (as evidenced by the fact that Angelus never gives a crap about Cordelia while the first thing Angel does once he's reensouled is go after Cordy).

OK, here I am trying to make rational sense out of a bizarre and irrational season. I was hoping that at this point, with only two episodes left, we could make sense of it. But until Cordelia comes back of sound mind and memory and EXPLAINS stuff, we won't know.

And maybe not even then. Argh!!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, on that pre-Inside Out stuff -- Rob, 22:32:03 04/24/03 Thu

OK, here I am trying to make rational sense out of a bizarre and irrational season. I was hoping that at this point, with only two episodes left, we could make sense of it. But until Cordelia comes back of sound mind and memory and EXPLAINS stuff, we won't know.

Or maybe we can get some quality info from Angel's trip to the preying mantis dimension next week, although I guess it's unlikely we'll get much by way of Cordy-explaining there. I really hope Charisma signs on for next year, because it would not be enough just to find out the truth about Cordy. We really need the real Cordy back, to deal with the consequences of what happened. If she just leaves, there will be so much left up in the air, character-wise. I mean, the last season Cordy has had no character development, because it hasn't really been her. We can't leave the character forever at a part of the story where we don't know who she is anymore. We need to become reaquainted with the real Cordy. If she doesn't at least learn or grow from this experience, I will be disappointed because her character would just have been a plot device, like a game piece. I think what they've done with Cordy this year has been really cool, and they have the opportunity to make the real Cordy's return and reacclamation into AI a truly fascinating thing, thus keeping her stint as the Beastmaster from being only a plot device. I hope they don't drop the ball, because if she just returns and everything's perfect (or worse, doesn't return at all) then her character will have been manipulated by the script writers for not enough of a end pay-off, IMO. And the first thing I want Cordy to do when she's back is start bonding with Wesley again. Ever since she got back from her vacation with Groo, she hasn't spoken more than three sentences to him. They were such close friends the first and second season, and I think the biggest sign that Cordy really is herself again would be for her to reconnect with him.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, prior to March 24th (end of season spoilers?) -- Masq, 07:22:59 04/25/03 Fri

There was an interview with Charisma that said she intended to work after her baby was born. It was born on March 24th. How does she feel now, a month into taking care of her baby? I haven't heard anything.

I have heard rumors that some of the characters will be killed off at the end of the season (thereby making room for BtVS alums to move over, although I don't know if they are getting rid of old characters for this purpose.)

Makes me very, very nervous, to say the least. I try to avoid spoilers and casting news and all that. I wonder if the trollops know anything more than I do on this topic.

From Ain't it Cool News......poss info on the fate of Angel...major casting spoiler in invisotext -- Rufus, 01:10:41 04/23/03 Wed

Ain't it Cool News

ANGELís Fate Determined??
I am ñ Hercules!!

Weíve not been able to confirm this with our best sources, who appear to have retired for the evening, but the switchboard has been lighting up all Tuesday night with news from lesser sources that the WB finally decided to slide ìAngelî off the bubble and into a fifth-season renewal.

For those just joining us, this is exceedingly good news, because:

a) Tim Minearís fourth-season finale script is an amazing knee-slapper, and spins the show into a wholly unexpected direction (hint: one of the showís most prized elements returns to loom larger in the Team Angel lives than ever before);

b) Some of the best writers from ìBuffy the Vampire Slayerî and ìFireflyî are expected to migrate toward Team Angel, transforming the franchise into a kind of Mutant Enemy supershow; and

c)Spoiler For the many asking if Spike will die at the end of the ìBuffyî series finale or if Spike will be a component of the ìAngelî cast next season, the answer is apparently ìyes.î You heard me. end spoiler.....

All rejoice now.

I am ñ Hercules!!

[> Re: As always...many thanks, Rufus. -- aliera, 04:50:20 04/23/03 Wed

[> Um.... (spoilery but vaguely worded question on spoiler) -- Spoiled person, 05:01:32 04/23/03 Wed

He'll do... both?

[> [> Re: Um.... (spoilery but vaguely worded question on spoiler) -- Rufus, 05:36:43 04/23/03 Wed

There is no confirmation on the last spoilery bit so my only answer is....considering the history of both shows....why not?

[> Re: From Ain't it Cool News..... -- CW, 06:34:00 04/23/03 Wed

Hope it's true, cause that will keep this board going strong! I read the other day that despite their popularity with viewers, many advertizers are growing to hate reality shows and do not wish to support them. So, for purely economic reasons the networks will have more scripted shows next season.

[> Fantastic! This bodes very well. Unfortunately for me... -- Rob, 08:14:13 04/23/03 Wed

...I read this story at AICN, because I figured that I'd risk reading an Angel spoiler to find out if it was being renewed....and then they go ahead and put a Buffy finale spoiler in there that I DID NOT want to see. Sigh. I didn't think despite my best efforts that I'd be able to enter the Buffy finale completely unspoiled. But I really tried my hardest. If I'd just checked here first, I would've been spared it, thanks to your inviso-text. While I know this doesn't spoil the whole ep at all by far, it still annoys me, because I was being so good! I'm going to be even more strict now. No Buffy or AtS related articles of any kind for me till the show's over.

But thanks for posting this, Ruf! Next time I'll be more patient and check here first.


[> [> Re: Silly Ending For Buffy in Light of The Above Spoilers Don't You Think????? -- Angelina, 08:57:42 04/23/03 Wed

Why even do the death thing when we all know that certain person will be back? I hate it. I guess they really want to end the speculation of a "relationship" between a certain Slayer and the dead man walking, literally.
Grrr Argggg

[> [> [> Not necessarily... (BtVS Final Episode spoiler--the one Rufus inviso-texted, AtS S5 spoiler) -- Rob, 09:24:47 04/23/03 Wed

"Why even do the death thing when we all know that certain person will be back? I hate it."

Besides the fact that I don't think we should judge anything before we see an episode, there's a problem with your reasoning here. Someone who is spoiled that James Marsters will be on Angel season 5, yes, might think "Why kill him in the final Buffy?" But most people who watch the show are not spoiled. They don't know that he'll be on Angel, so they won't think "Duh! He'll just come back to life!" when they watch the last ep of Buffy. Also, we don't know yet in what form he'll appear on AtS. They might even be flashbacks. Until we see the death on "Buffy" and then see him appear on "Angel" and in what capacity, it's way too early to say you hate it or not. Also, again, remember, that we here on-line know a little more than the masses, most of whom are not on- line and not spoiled. There's no reason for an unspoiled person to believe that Spike's death in the LAST episode isn't permanent.


[> [> [> [> There are no spoilers in my post besides Rufus'. But don't read if you don't want to know that one. -- Rob, 09:47:55 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Very True Rob - and.......(BtVS Final Ep spoiler-- the one Rufus inviso-texted, AtS S5 spoiler) -- Angelina, 13:09:49 04/23/03 Wed

Very true. Never looked at it that way before. Wow, can you imagine the unspoiled Spike lovers at 9:00 pm May 20th! Even I will cry a river, and I (think) I know whats gonna happen. Eek.

[> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- Rob, 13:55:07 04/23/03 Wed

"Never looked at it that way before."

I looked at it like that the first time this year in "Never Leave Me," when I was a little underwhelmed by the revelation that it was the First because a lot of us on-line had already figured it out. Then I thought "Duh! Not everybody knows that!" (Not that I didn't love the First storyline, btw, just to make that clear! ;o) )


[> [> Well, chances are, Rob -- Masq, 09:14:58 04/23/03 Wed

that this Buffy "spoiler" is just a rumor. You know Joss has about four different endings filmed. I'm sure this is one of them. And the one most likely to get leaked is probably least likely to be true.

I do believe we have to be agnostic about Buffy finale "spoilers" in light of this.

So I still consider myself unspoiled.

[> What I'd like to see after next Wednesday's episode (possible S5 spoilers) -- cjl, 10:45:33 04/23/03 Wed

[Grrr. Arrrgh. Fox logo and music. Fade to black.

Fade in on the Hyperion set. Technicians are removing some of the props. Jordan Levin, President of the WB, is strolling casually through the lobby, admiring the scenery, lord of all he surveys. He stops, greeting the camera like an old friend.]

JORDAN LEVIN: Oh hi! I'm Jordan Levin, President of the WB. I hope you enjoyed the latest, exciting episode of ANGEL. We're proud to have ANGEL on our schedule of high- quality family series, along with audience favorites like Smallville, 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls, Everwood, and Black Sash.

[Aide whispers in Levin's ear; points to ratings chart on clipboard.]

JL [to Aide]: Really? [To camera] OK, forget about that last one. Anyway, one of the reasons why the WB is the fastest- growing major network on TV is that we listen to our viewers. We've received thousands of letters and postcards asking us to renew ANGEL; and I'm here tonight to announce that ANGEL will be back fighting evil for a fifth season right here on the WB, Wednesdays at 9:00...Unless, of course, that Tarzan thing doesn't work out and we have to move ANGEL back to Sunday. Or Friday.

[Jeffrey Bell enters, holding a rubber "severed" hand left over from "Magic Bullet.")

JL: It's a privilege to continue our working relationship with one of the most brilliant minds on TV, ANGEL creator Joss Whedon, and his amazing creative staff--like Jeffrey Bell here. [Bell holds rubber hand out for handshake. Levin ignores him.] I'm sure Joss, Jeff and the rest of the crew at ANGEL will have some thrilling surprises for us in Season 5 [subliminal image of semi-nekkid Spike], as ANGEL and his team of champions [Bell rolls his eyes] fight for truth and justice in the seamy underworld of Los Angeles.

So keep watching, ANGEL fans. I guarantee, the best is yet to come! [Bell smiles at the camera, and positions rubber hand to give a big "thumbs up".]

[Fade out.]

Final LOOSE END Question for Board - Spoils & Spec BtVS thru 7.22 -- Angelina, 08:52:45 04/23/03 Wed

OK we've done this one before, but we all forgot one HUGE loose end. Just when, if ever, was the "major fault in the Slayer Line" (according to Biloxi's(?) Eye) addressed? And if it hasn't, do you think we are going to get an explanation before this show bows out? Jeez, that would be a pretty big loose end, no? Thanks.

Oh, and last night's rerun finally addressed the Faith/Buffy status - Buffy said The First would hunt down all of the potentials, then go for Faith then go for her. So, for all intents and purposes, Buffy is The Slayer still?

[> The First's order of service -- Helen, 09:05:33 04/23/03 Wed

This is by no means an original thought. I thought the idea of killing all the potentials before killing Faith was that otherwise her death would activate a new Slayer. With no potentials left Faith will be the last of the line. Buffy can really be killed at any point without really affecting the First's plan, except that its her show, so it would be kinda dumb.

[> [> Re: The First's order of service -- Angelina, 11:30:33 04/23/03 Wed

This really wasn't my question, but now that you brought it up, how come, if Buffy could be killed at any time, did FE say over and over again, "its not her (Buffy's) time yet"? I mean, I love this show, but this particular story line is just filled with inconsistences that even Joss isn't going to be able to salvage this finale. I am so pissed off, but only after I get over the heartbreaking disappointment

[> [> [> Well, it's probably linked to Beljoxa's Eye -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:18:41 04/23/03 Wed

If Buffy's resurrection is linked to the First's increased influence in the world, than killing Buffy might very well work against it, causing the First to have to resume less direct control of events.

[> Re: Final LOOSE END Question for Board - Spoils & Spec BtVS thru 7.22 -- maddog, 09:07:33 04/23/03 Wed

Technically no. If she was then when she died at the end of season 5 another slayer would have been called....yet no slayer. I think the mean who created the original slayer said it best. Buffy's not really "The Slayer" anymore as much as she's the guardian of the hellmouth. Faith's the slayer. But if the First wants to not only end the slayer line but open the hellmouth the run all over the earth then it has to go SIT's, Faith(thus killing off the slayer line) and then take out the guardian(who wouldn't have the special help that a Slayer can give) and they'd have free reign.

[> [> Re: Final LOOSE END - QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED Spoils & Spec BtVS thru 7.22 -- Angelina, 11:22:06 04/23/03 Wed

one HUGE loose end. Just when, if ever, was the "major fault in the Slayer Line" (according to Biloxi's(?) Eye) addressed? And if it hasn't, do you think we are going to get an explanation of what this referes to before this show bows out? Jeez, that would be a pretty big loose end, no? Thanks.

[> [> [> You really think this won't be addressed? -- dream, 13:18:26 04/23/03 Wed

There are some loose ends that I think won't be addressed by the end of the series -- Joss has said as much ("like life") -- but there are a few that I would be willing to bet (very small amounts of) cash money will be. (I'm unspoiled).
1) Joyce's comment to Dawn
2) The Slayer line question (although I suppose it is possible that Anya was right)
3) Why the First wants Buffy left alive
4) The Army o' UberVamp vision

There are others, of course, (stupid date-stamp!) but these seem to be so clearly related to the central plotline that I can't imagine they will be left unresolved. They've got four episodes, which may not seem like a lot, but consider the season 2 Angel/Angelus plotline. The heart of that plotline was just five episodes - Surprise/Innocence, Passion, Becoming parts 1 & 2. There were others in between, but they could be skipped and you would still get the full story. Consider how much was packed into Enemies, Choices, Graduation 1 & 2. I think four really tight episodes will be enough to address those four items, as well as get Buffy her groove back, and throw in a little Scooby- bonding, Giles reconciliation, and Spike resolving in the mix. Most movie, even the big epic ones, have less time total.

[> [> [> [> Agree -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:46:47 04/23/03 Wed

For one thing, there are probably certain plotlines that will be left unresolved since they were designed back when it was uncertain whether there would be a Season 8 or not. So, I'm willing to bet that these will be plotlines that ME won't bother resolving:

1) The origin of the manifest spirits' talisman in "Lessons".

2) The assassin demons being sent after Anya.

3) What Dawn spoke to in CwDP (though what was said to her is a different story).

4) What Buffy spoke to during her dreams in "Bring on the Night".

After all, imagine if Season 4 had been the last season. If it were, than why Tara ruined the demon locator spell in "Goodbye, Iowa" would remain a mystery, for example. Frankly, I don't think having a few minor, unexplained/unfinished plotlines hurts the story (especially if there's going to be a spinoff).

And, here's how I also looked at it:

The last four episodes of Season 5 were "Tough Love", "Spiral", "Weight of the World", and "The Gift". In the course of these episodes Tara went insane and came back; the Knights of Byzantium came back, got explained, and then destroyed; Glory found out Dawn's the Key; everyone finds out why Glory wants the Key; everyone finds out that Ben is Glory and why Dawn forgot it; Anya and Xander got engaged; the Dagon Sphere got brought up again for the first time since "No Place Like Home"; Doc turned out to be evil; "death is your gift" got explained; Willow got uber- powerful; Giles became a murderer; Glory died; the dilemma of killing Dawn or not got introduced and resolved; and Buffy died. All in four episodes.

I think another part of the problem is that some people (not necessarily saying anyone on this thread) expect every character to get total resolution to all their issues and storylines before the series ends. I simply do not think this is the case. Joss has said before that he designs every season (except Season Six) to function as the last. Thus, the amount of character resolution present at the end of most seasons is probably close to what we'll be getting in 7.22

[> You will know something in ep 22 -- Rufus, 20:50:58 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> You're starting to sound like an all knowing seer/trollop, rufus and it's kinda funny -- deeva ;o), 23:09:40 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: STILL FEEL WE WON'T BE DOING THE SNOOPY DANCE AFTER 7.22 -- Angelina, 04:29:14 04/24/03 Thu

I'm think the "cry me a river dance".

I still love this show. I really do. Remaining Hopeful.

[> [> [> [> Have faith in Joss. :o) -- Rob, 07:52:30 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Always do. -- deeva, 08:12:34 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> Yeah, it is funny.....;) -- Rufus, 21:13:15 04/24/03 Thu

OT - Whedon statement on S7/Iraq parallels -- KdS, 11:21:03 04/23/03 Wed

From http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/73951.htm

"The last thing I ever wanted in the world was for any of 'Buffy's' rhetoric to be compared to anything [President Bush] was saying," Whedon says.

"Yet he goes to war and ostensibly we have a war on 'Buffy,' " Whedon said.

"So I think it was very much a concern to the writers and myself that we try and stress the pain and the uncertainty and the emotion of it as opposed to the gung-ho 'let's-go- get-'em' of it.

"None of us advocates the idea of war and I certainly didn't support the decision to go in during this particular action [in Iraq]," he said.

So, how long 'til some ultrapatriots start a "Dixie Chicks" style boycott?

[> He didn't shout it out in a forum... -- CW, 11:58:01 04/23/03 Wed

where a lot of folks of varied political views paid or waited expectantly just to see him. He's not known as an activist. I doubt many will even notice and fewer will care.

[> Re: OT - Whedon statement on S7/Iraq parallels -- 110v3w1110w, 12:28:13 04/23/03 Wed

what is wrong with people boycotting the products or services provided by somone they don't agree with ? liberals do it all the time look at mcdonalds, gap and nike they are the target of a boycott by some people and i don't hear anyone call them ultra leftists or ultra anything but when a conservative does it they are ultrapatriots

[> [> Well, yes and no. -- dream, 12:49:29 04/23/03 Wed

There is one big difference between boycotting Nike and boycotting, say, a show like Buffy because of what the producer said. People don't boycott Nike because they don't like what the CEO thinks. They boycott Nike because of the PRACTICES of the COMPANY. Although you are certainly correct that anyone has a right to support a business based on any criteria s/he wishes to use, I tend to respect boycotts that are intended to change the harmful practices of the company being boycotted (and which are ended when the practices change), and not respect those which are intended to punish an individual for having particular beliefs. This is not an issue of politics - I have had the same argument with people on the left.

[> [> [> I'm staying out of this one, but -- DickBD, 13:26:45 04/23/03 Wed

...as so often seems to be the case, Joss is right!

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm staying out of this one, but -- DEN, 15:10:36 04/23/03 Wed

Perhaps our heroine should be taking lessons. If Bush and Company had fought their war at a level of effectiveness corresponding to Buffy's performance so far, the Republican Guard would be staging a parade down Pennsylvania Avenue!

[> [> [> [> [> How I learned to love T.E. Lawrence and other stories (vague DG spoilers) -- fresne, 17:24:05 04/23/03 Wed

Taking a break from editing, because it becomes hard to come up with new ways to say, this phrase, it does not mean what you think it meansÖI drift to Buffy.

And ponder, if P. Bush Jr. had been constrained to make the war last for 20+ episodes, covering a calendar year of nine months, but allowing for re-runs, four high points an episode, mini arcs corresponding to sweeps and an epiphanic and conclusive victory timed with the Sproing of May, how then this parallel.

Also, despite P. Bush Sr.'s interesting phonetic pronunciation of Saddamís name, said gentleman of Iraq is not the primary source of all evil in the world. Even Tamurlane, for all his towering pile of skulls, was in the end a man like other men. Although, also a pretty decent play.

Which to my mind is the problem with Buffyís tactics. Her strategy. She has timeline constraints that hold back the Seven Pillars of Wisdom Ahhhhh moment.

One of the most fascinating sections of the Seven Pillars of Wisdom is this bit where Lawrence talks about his realization that fighting and killing the Ottoman troops themselves was irrelevant to victory. The Ottomans had plenty of troops to spend as they wished. Lives were cheap. Machinery. That was hard to come by. Supply lines. Those were stretched and thin and vulnerably slender across the sand.

The Arab forces in contrast had very limited troops. They couldnít afford to loose men. But they did have the mobility of mist.

The point of fighting became not to fight, but rather to destroy the thing that the enemy had in short supply. Blow up the train and run away. You wanted just enough stuff to get through to the enemy troops in pick a random spot so that theyíd stay. Wasting time holding pointless positions. Irrelevant lines in the sand.

Another interesting analysis of strategy versus tactics is Liddell Hartís Indirect Strategy. I believe someone recommended it in our little non-fiction book recommend fest awhile back and itís well worth reading.

Or put another way, if Hamlet had just killed Claudius in the first act, it would be a remarkably short play.

None of which is an excuse, itís just in my head.

Actually, as I think about it. In the series, how often has a character ignored the obvious trap? Faith is a Slayer because Buffy walked into what was a trap. Led by the Annoying One into the womb where the monster waited to be free. From beneath you it devours.

Iíd go on, but I have ten more pages to comment. Or maybe I should just go home, because really, ìDid we mention the new media capabilities? They are really cool.î What do you say to that in a technical document?

[> [> [> Re: Well, yes and no. -- Malandanza, 12:14:17 04/24/03 Thu

"There is one big difference between boycotting Nike and boycotting, say, a show like Buffy because of what the producer said. People don't boycott Nike because they don't like what the CEO thinks."

Sometimes. But I recall a big Pro-Choice boycott of Domino's Pizza because the founder contributes to Pro-Life causes. Although I have to admit that it seems a bit surreal to think of Pizza Hut as the Abortion Pizza and Domino's as the Pizza of Life.

Anyway, I think the Dixie Chick boycott is overblown. They made an Anti-Bush remark in a Pro-America country -- it's not Hanoi Jane. And I don't think that the remarks would have been a big deal at all had it not been for a few opportunistic radio stations looking to garner a little notoriety at the Dixie Chick's expense. Other stations jumped on the bandwagon and tried to outdo each other and what would have been a minor public relations blunder turned into a jingoistic circus (although running over CD's with a tractor is at least a novel variation of the more traditional record burning). In any event, Bush wasn't behind the boycott, the media was. So the media as Jasmine seems more apt to me than Bush as Jasmine.

I also believe that people have a right to boycott whatever they wish to -- but I think that music boycotts tend to be counterproductive. It's like the periodic profanity boycotts we see from time to time -- the record sales go through the roof. Artists recognize this. Billy Joel once said that having "Only the Good Die Young" banned by the Archdiocese of New York helped start his career. Steven Tyler thanked the PMRC for ensuring that "as long as record has a few dirty words, it'll sell an extra million copies." Another rock star (I can't remember who) remarked that they "have to buy them to burn them." In literature, I recall a letter from Mark Twain after he found that Huckleberry Finn had been banned as worthless trash, exulting to his publisher that they'd have to print a few more editions on the strength of that critique. But I don't believe that boycotts intend to solve the problem they perceive -- rather, when a conservative group raises the spectre of profanity in music, it is part of a funding drive. They raise plenty of money for their "cause" at the very time that they create exactly the environment they are ostensibly fighting against. The people who contribute to the cause feel good about themselves for fighting for community standards, the members of the cause make money, their opponents make money, and the contributors to the opponents cause feel good about fighting censorship. Everybody wins. It's a good system.

[> [> [> [> "Everybody wins." Milo would be so proud. -- Sophist, 20:00:25 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Dominos boycott -- dream, 06:20:00 04/25/03 Fri

Actually, the Dominos boycott was the one I was referencing when I said that I had had the same argument with people on the left. I thought that was ridiculous as well - because it was not company practices or use of company money that was being protested, but the beliefs of the person at the head of the company. People did argue, with some validity, that the CEO would be making money off of the company, and they didn't want their money going to him, and then on to pro-life groups. But lots of people make their money from Domino and some give it to the ACLU, so I tend to think that anything that indirect is a quagmire I wouldn't want to get into. I can understand on a personal level - hell, there are restaurants I won't go to because of how they treated ex- employee friend of mine. But it seems like there should be some way of developing a meaningful, intelligent criteria for determining when to leave things to personal decisions and when an organized boycott is in order. I would think the line between a company practices and the personal beliefs of people associated with that company would be the most logical.

Of course, artists complicate things by being, essentially, their own companies, and selling a representation (one hopes) of their beliefs. Fortunately, the backlash effect you mentioned usually comes into play in those circumstances and, as you say, works out in the end.

[> [> Neither here nor there, butÖ -- M., 18:33:03 04/23/03 Wed

I loved it when those people bought all that expensive French wine to dump it down the sewer. That was absolutely brilliant boycott strategy.

[> [> [> ANNOUNCEMENT -- Sheri, 19:41:40 04/23/03 Wed

I'd just like to show my support for those of you who have decided to protest all things French.

Please, send all French wines and cheeses to me, and I will be sure to dispose of the offending substances.

No need to thank me! It's my pleasure.

ps: you can keep the freedom fries and freedom poodles.

[> [> [> [> I'll take the French lovers and kisses, BTW -- luna, 11:27:23 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> I'll take Ete. -- Sophist, 12:55:33 04/24/03 Thu

[> Like LeeAnn said... Jasmine=Bush! -- Q, 17:27:21 04/23/03 Wed

Joss is quick to deny any connections with Buffy season 7 and modern politics, but says nothing about Angel. Why? Because people will compare Buffy to the U.S., both being at war, which Joss is quick to deny. But this quote from the New York Post:

"None of us advocates the idea of war and I certainly didn't support the decision to go in during this particular action [in Iraq]," he said

clearly shows where he stands. Therefore, no need to deny Angels parrallels, when the metaphor for deluded leaders and a whole nation following blindly-- and the few dissenters being ostracized almost violently, is displayed and discussed even more heavily. Because, as has been discussed, this probably IS a philosophical statement.

As for the subject of boycotting.... It's already begun this week with the PTC basically asking people to write to the UPN to condemn "Dirty Girls", why not throw the rest of the Christian Right (which is neither) into the mix!

[> [> Jasmine and the Governor of California spoilers thru 4/23/03 ep -- Cleanthes, 21:56:06 04/23/03 Wed

I dunno, Jasmine easily took over Los Angeles, a city that did not vote for Bush in a state that did not vote for Bush.

It would be as easy to correlate Jasmine to the groupthink of the Hollywood boobousie. I see she easily convinced the not-too-bright governor of California to call out the national guard.

[> [> [> Re: Jasmine and the Governor of California spoilers thru 4/23/03 ep -- Q, 22:45:16 04/23/03 Wed

>I dunno, Jasmine easily took over Los Angeles, a city that did not vote for Bush in a state that did not vote for Bush.<

In a COUNTRY that didn't vote for Bush!!!!!

[> Not like the Dixie Chicks at all -- Vash the Stampede (formally Yu Yu Hakusho), 18:10:23 04/23/03 Wed

What got the Dixie Chicks in trouble was not that they disagreed with the war, but that they said were ashamed of the President. Also, they did it on a foreign stage where the vast majority of the concert audience was anit-Bush, anit-war, so to many it seemed like they were pandering to them. Joss, on the other hand, merely said he was against the war, nothing more.

Now, I was for the war, but I respect those people who sincerely believed it was wrong. Its those people who compared Bush to Hitler or said the war was about America getting its hands on Iraq's oil who I would consider boycotting (Michael Moore for example). Everyone else who simply didn't believe in the war I have no problem with, and I am sure many Americans like me feel the same way.

PS: Discovered the anime Trigun recently, which is why I decided to change my name. Plus, Vash the Stampede sounds a bit more masculine than Yu Yu, don't ya think? LOL

[> [> Re: Not like the Dixie Chicks at all (OT) -- Q, 22:52:06 04/23/03 Wed

>said the war was about America getting its hands on Iraq's oil who I would consider boycotting (Michael Moore for example). <

Why in the world do you find it more offensive of people to claim the war was all about oil (a VERY valid claim) than other reasons for being against the war? This confuses me. (I personally thing it was about much more than oil. It was about oil AND multi-million dollar reconstruction deals for Bush's buddies like Haliburton, AND it was about poll numbers, don't forget poll numbers! War always helps the republicans after they F%^&k up our economy!)

Oh, and us Michael Moore fans aren't too worried about a boycott. He pretty much had a boycott of conservative, and kinda-conservative people long before this! His career won't suffer one bit.

[> [> [> Regarding Michael Moore -- Vash the Stampede, 10:49:41 04/24/03 Thu

I thought it was a bit rich that Moore called our president fictious, and the war fictious, when he just won an award for a fictious documentary. Now, before you jump all over me, let me give you a few facts:

1. The scene where he went into a bank and walked out with a gun was staged. What really happens is that after the bank runs a background check with the FBI on you, 10 days later you pick up your gun at a dearlership. They don't keep the guns in the bank.

2. In Canada, he either staged the scene where he bought all that ammo or he broke the law. As a foreign citizen, he would not have been able to legally buy that stuff without at least providing ID and other forms as well.

3. Regarding the numbers of gun related homicides in Amercia and other countries: he either made the numbers up, or grossly exagerated, becasue no one has been able to verify these "facts"

4. All the footage regarding the NRA and Charlton Heston were edited and taken out of context to make them look like unfeeling barbarians.

5. Moore said we gave the Taliban $245 million dollars, thus implying we were asking for 9/11 to happen. The US did give $245 million to Afganistan, but it was for food and humanatrian aid, not to the government.

If you wanna learn more go to www.revoketheoscar.com (I think that is the address; if not, just use a search engine and type in Micheal Moore, revoke the Oscar). It shows you all the spin Moore put out there to make his point. Now, I am not out to get his oscar revoked or anything, but it does show just how much of the information in his mockumentary was spun or made up


[> STUPID, PIECE-OF-FUCK AOL!!! -- RichardX1, 20:42:13 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> Whedon vs. "Dixie" Chicks -- RichardX1, 20:58:51 04/23/03 Wed

>>So, how long 'til some ultrapatriots start a "Dixie Chicks" style boycott?<<

Joss Whedon writes for the post-Generation-X-ers. You know, the MTV Generation. Liberal "propaganda" is par for the course in such venues. In fact, the "ultrapatriots" who staged a good deal of these anti-protest boycotts had probably already called for a boycott against Joss Whedon's work for his promotion of satan worship (he said as he jammed his tongue into his cheek).

The Dixie Chicks, on the other hand, are (or were) country musicians. Their target is the deep South: "big ol' hairy, no-drivin', Hee-Haw watchin', NASCAR racin', pro-wrasslin' promotin' sons-o-guns." For them to make a statement against George W. Bush or the war was as if someone from Atlanta had said, "That Sherman feller's all right."

Lemme put it this way. I live near Fort Bragg: a military base in the South. Around here, "gun control" means holding your pistol with both hands. And yet radio stations in my listening area, including stations in my own county, continue to play music by Sheryl Crow: one of the first celebrities to publicly denounce our President and the war. On the other hand, I heard "Landslide" today for the first time in almost two months; and it was the Stevie Nicks/Fleetwood Mac version (the original version, not the one from that reunion album).

The South hates traitors.

[> [> [> Except when the South itself is the traitor -- luna (who promises that this is her LAST political post), 09:51:00 04/24/03 Thu

Born and bred in Dixie, for many generations, some of them Confederate, I found it the supreme irony that every Wednesday our Women in Black protest was right in front of the Confederate monunment and flag--and that many of the same people who rode by and screamed "Traitor!" at us were also ready to resort to violence to keep the Confederate flag flying. Who is the traitor--the person who takes up arms against the government and tries to start a new one, as the Confederates did, or the person who asks that the country listen to all of its citizens?

[> [> [> [> There is your misconception. -- Rendyl, 11:46:43 04/24/03 Thu

The South (as the Confederacy) was never a traitor. It was written into the constitutions of most states (even northern ones) that they had the right to seceed.

(also the right to keep their ports open to foreign trade, the right not to go broke paying tariffs into northern treasuries, etc)

What they did was not illegal, nor was it treason.


[> [> [> [> [> Ah yes, debating the Civil War again. -- Sophist, 13:26:07 04/24/03 Thu

I'll find the earlier thread if I can. Just two quick points:

It was written into the constitutions of most states (even northern ones) that they had the right to seceed.

This is not true, nor is it relevant. I'll ignore the factual issue and just discuss the legal one.

Secession can be justified either as revolution or as a legal right under existing law. As far as I know, no one ever denied the possibility of revolution (Lincoln and Madison both acknowledged it, and that should end the inquiry). Of course, we know what happens to failed revolutions..... Anyway, the debate, such as it is, involves the legal right.

The flaw in your point is this: the reservation of a right to secede in a state constitution is irrelevant. The right can only exist, if at all, in the federal constitution. This is the same rule that would apply to any contractual agreement. The reason is simple: if it's not written into the general agreement, the other parties never agreed to it. It would be like making a contract to supply widgets for a year, but writing yourself a note that you don't have to if you change your mind -- the other party never agreed to that little addendum, so it's not part of the contract and not legal.

As far as I know, all Southern attempts to justify secession relied on the nature of the federal constitution.

the right to keep their ports open to foreign trade

There was no such right. This was settled by Jefferson's Embargo of 1807, which was upheld by the Supreme Court. Ironically, this embargo was requested by a strict constructionist President, supported by the South both in Congress and generally, and challenged by New England.

If this discussion is going further (I doubt it), remember that treason is defined as "levying war against" the United States.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ah yes, debating the Civil War again. -- Slayrunt, 22:16:37 04/24/03 Thu


A question, you stated -
As far as I know, all Southern attempts to justify secession relied on the nature of the federal constitution.

Italics mine.

In these Southern attempts, was it justified?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ah yes, debating the Civil War again. -- RichardX1, 06:19:55 04/25/03 Fri

>>In these Southern attempts, was it justified?<<

From the South's perspective, it certainly was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not in my view, no. -- Sophist, 09:05:54 04/25/03 Fri

But it's not like there's an objective answer to your question. Certainly the majority view in the US, then and now, was that they were not.

To me, the Southern Constitutional arguments were and are frivolous. As I mentioned, a claim based on the right of revolution is valid enough in the abstract, but that's a natural right, not a Constitutional one. I think everyone agrees that this natural right should be exercised only in the last resort (Madison's phrase was the "dernier resort") and only for a proper purpose. I don't think secession met either of these tests.

[> [> [> [> [> The previous discussion about the Civil War -- Sophist, 14:06:38 04/24/03 Thu

begins with Traveler's post on April 20, 2002 at 19:34 in this thread.

[> [> Honey, you've *got* to stop bottling up your emotions. -- HonorH, 23:25:55 04/23/03 Wed

How did "Buffys Plan" move the plot along? (Spoilers DG & Orpheus) -- WickedBuffy ::pulling a thread loose::, 16:07:35 04/23/03 Wed

(This was buried in a thread below... it's based on yez's post containing: "But no plan, no matter how sound, would've worked because in order to advance the story in the way they wanted it advanced, the writers needed Buffy to fail, some Potentials to die, Xander to lose an eye."

That seems logical, yez. I hope it was some plot advancement scene. But what did it the feeble plan show us?

Caleb is much stronger than the best physical fighters. And he's having a whole lot of fun!

Buffy is being looked at with much less hero worship by the SITs ( at least the mangled ones).

The loss and deaths create more doubt about Buffys leadership abilities and perhaps more reason for hesitancy in following Buffy.

The Scoobs can have really, terrible, irreversible things happen to them. They appear more mortal. (I was as shocked by Xanders eye gouging as I was when I saw Tara being shot.)

Faith will now follow Buffy instead of fight her, whether physically or just to be rebellious. She acknowledged Buffy as her boss.

Willow still won't use her magic. Even to help the plan. And afterwards she didn't go all angry and black-eyed, raven- haired when she saw what had been done to her girlfriend AND to her best friend.

The SITs try, but they aren't superpowered yet.

Giles has either lost his backbone or is going senile.

umm, there is still no official law enforcement in Sunnydale following up on the recent homicides, attempted murders and general swiftly rising bodycount.

ps... two things from your post... what other reason, besides the one I mentioned, would the writers have for needing an opportunity for Xanders eye to get gouged out? And about Faith as a strategist.... how much did she play in creating that great "while Wes feigns death and I appear to lose in order to drug Angelus with my body" plan? I can't remember if they gave kudos afterwards - but it was after Faith asked about the vampire/human drug symbiotic act that the plan happened. Did it suddenly click into Wes's mind even though he knew about it for a while, or was it Faiths putting two and two together.

[> Faith's plan..... -- Briar Rose, 17:33:55 04/23/03 Wed

I seem to remember that when Lorne jumped on Wes about Faith's condition after the blood letting scheme, that Wes stated it was Faith's idea.

Lorne then said that Wes should still take responsibility because 'Faith couldn't have known just how deep she'd go...what the possible outcome would be....', words to that effect.

This scripted exchange would confirm the plan as enacted as being Faith's, albeit with Wesley's being partly responsible for the fact that Faith might not have known the exact effects this drug could have on her - but even that is debatable considering the Slayers are called on to make those Do or Die decisions daily anyway and it might not have stopped her plans if he HAD told her.

Christ/Spike parallels -- LeeAnn, 18:10:09 04/23/03 Wed

There are many parallels between Christ's journey and Spike's. Most I think are deliberate, but some not. But there are sooo many of them. For instance:

Jesus is born in a stables and laid in a managerÖonÖhay? Spike is born in an alley, where he had been sitting on a bale ofÖhay (If I remember rightly.).

Three wise men herald the birth of Christ. I wouldn't call them wise but Angel, Darla and Dru make three.

Jesus goes to Egypt. Spike goes to Africa. Egypt is in Africa.

Spike spends time in the High School basement (the wilderness) being tempted by the First Evil (the devil) who offers him the forms of the women he has loved, Drucilla and Buffy. How much time did Spike spend being tempted? Was it 40 days?

Spike is immersed by the UberVamp, which, being a Real Vampire, is sort of an older relative, like John the Baptist baptizing Jesus.

In Never Leave Me Spike asks Buffy to kill him like Jesus in the Garden of Getheseme asked that the cup be taken from him.

Spike's friends watch but not too well. His enemies come into Buffy's house, the garden, capture him. and take him away. His friends fight but to no avail. (Did anyone lose an ear?)

Spike is taken and crucified. This results in a resurrection, a purified version of Spike rises, a real vampire. This parellel is especially clear when you recall that in the original shoot Spike has nails driven into his hands.

In Beneath You Spike suffers on a cross.

Not only is Spike crucified but others also share a similar fate. First Jonathan, who is stabbed in the side and bleeds onto the seal and dies in a crucifixion pose. Later Xander is also crucified and stabbed in the side. This seems to mirror Jesus' crucifixion with two others who he promises will be with him in paradise. Will Xander and Jonathan end up in an AU with Spike?

Jesus was beaten and scoured. Spike is beaten and scoured.

Jesus chooses 12 disciples to spread his gospel. Willow mentions 10 people who are missing and who, it is implied, Spike has turned. Each of these must follow in his footsteps, converting others to his path. If we add Holden that may make it 11. Spike also bites Andrew who would have been number 12.

Jesus converts his mother. Spike converts his mother.

Caleb speaks the words from the last supper.

Jesus' disciple Judas betrays Jesus. Holden, one of Spike's disciples, betrays him to Buffy.

Jesus is denied three times by his favorite. How many times does Buffy deny Spike when he asks for help? In Lessons Buffy leaves him alone in the basement with evil. In BY she leaves him after he asks for help. Also in Help. So three times she denies him.

The talisman in Lesson looked like wooden cross to me. Or a twig cross. Through the power of this cross the dead rise.

The First Evil's cave seems very like the inside of a tomb.

I don't believe that Joss was thinking Christ's journey as far back as Fool for Love. That is probably serendipity but there are too many parallels with Christ's journey this season for it to be coincidental. (Especially that ridiculous drown the vampire scenario. That can only be explained by the Christ parallels.) It's like Joss wrote each event of Christ's life on a little strip of paper, mixed them up and then inserted them into the scripts in random order (Isn't that called the cut-up technique?)

Many of Spike's fans have demanded his redemption. I think Joss decided to give it to us in the most overt way possible, by having Spike's journey this year parallel Christ's. I expect even more parallels in the next few weeks.

That Joss. He's something. Gonna miss him when he's gone.

[> Re: Christ/Spike parallels -- pw10n (NB: tongue in cheek), 19:39:47 04/23/03 Wed

Caleb lost an ear (on Firefly) and it was later reattached. How wierd is that?

[> [> Damn..that is weird.. -- LeeAnn, 21:20:34 04/23/03 Wed

[> Re: that would prove my theory (spoilery speculation) -- Purple Tulip, 12:33:27 04/24/03 Thu

I've been thinking all along that the end of the series will see Spike sacrificing himself to save the rest of humanity (much as Jesus died on the cross for us). And, since it is rumored that Spike will be on Angel next year, it leads me to think that after his sacrifice, he will be allowed to "rise again," (like Jesus did), since it is also rumored that he will disapear---but he will have to reapear at some point to make the crossover.

Brief semi-coherent comment on Sacrifice (spoilers for tonight's AtS!) -- ponygirl, 19:35:19 04/23/03 Wed

Holy friggin crap!!!!

That was amazing!

Jasmine as the "Devourer"? Spider-like creatures? Are all of our BtVS loose ends going to be tied up on AtS?

Off to lie awake all night in fairly giddy excitement!

[> Re: Brief semi-coherent comment on Sacrifice (spoilers for tonight's AtS!) -- Corwin of Amber, 21:36:45 04/23/03 Wed

"From beneath you, it devours."

Except that the AI team spent most of the ep underground...beneath Jasmine. Don't know if that means anything.

[> [> Re: Brief semi-coherent comment on Sacrifice (spoilers for tonight's AtS!) -- Marianne, 22:18:51 04/23/03 Wed

Is it just me or did the Underworld/alternate spider universe seem pretty much like the hellish ubervamp world that Buffy saw? I wished I would've watched the BtVS rerun now that I saw Angel.


[> [> [> Where I thought he was... -- Valheru, 22:41:05 04/23/03 Wed

Perhaps it was just David's delivery, but when he said, "Oh, hell," it sounded less like the common phrase of dejection and rather like an explanation of his location--literally, Angel thinks he's in Hell. And when has Angel been in a Hell dimension? Could this strange world be where Acathla's portal opened up to at the end of "Becoming", where Angel spent a hundred years of torment? Personally, I always thought Angel's Hell was more like what we saw of Quar'toth, but wouldn't it be interesting if Jasmine's "homeworld" was the same place Angel spent the Summer of '98? Such a possibility could also lead to addressing the circumstances of Angel's return from said Hell dimension, which brings up the larger metaphysical question of the Powers That Be.

[> [> [> [> Re: Where I thought he was... -- Marianne, 23:16:49 04/23/03 Wed

Ahh...good point about the 'Oh hell' remark. Altho it could've also been said in that aside ha ha sort of way...

If what Skip said was true about it all being a plan, than you could be right with your spec on "Jasmine's" hell being that same hell from the Summer of '98. And of course it all has been a plan, why else would Angel have been evicted from the hell dimension...

Also, Angel was really weird after Hell dimension time--much like Cordy, except Cordy wasn't wild animal like like Angel was...so scratch that thought.

What sort of mind makes up stuff so twisty and turny just to have you end up at point 'a' again, four seasons later?

Oh yeah...the FE, the ME.

Mare-thinking she wouldn't trust the blue glowy ball thing if it was up to her

[> Not Spiders. Praying Manti -- neaux, 04:33:10 04/24/03 Thu

I was under the impression these creatures were like Praying Mantisisiesessess. Hence the Praying/Worshiping of the artist recently known as Jasmine.

[> [> Fits the Devourer profile, like the Praying Mantis that almost ate Xander -- RadiusRS, 08:34:48 04/24/03 Thu

Wasn't that...? (Spoilers for **Sacrifice**) -- dub ;o), 20:07:28 04/23/03 Wed

Wasn't that scorpion-thingy speaking with the voice of The Master from BtVS? Mark Metcalfe? (I think that's his name.)

Anybody know for sure?


[> Re: Wasn't that...? (Spoilers for **Sacrifice**) -- CW, 21:16:33 04/23/03 Wed

Didn't record it. But, I sure thought it was him.

Old ME actors never die, they just come back more evil.

[> [> I thought it sounded like Brent Spiner playing Noonian Soong -- oboemaboe, 21:22:32 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> I thought it was him, too. -- Rob, 22:17:30 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> [> I was trying to place it. -- Ray, 01:21:49 04/24/03 Thu

And I think it was him.

[> [> He sounded awfully familiar and credits go too fast to know right now. -- deeva, 23:13:48 04/23/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Wasn't that...? (Spoilers for **Sacrifice**) -- ponygirl, 07:58:33 04/24/03 Thu

I thought he sounded a bit like Camden Toy, the actor who played Gnarl and the Ubervamp.

[> Nope, Jeff Ricketts -- pellenaka, 09:19:41 04/24/03 Thu

I believe it was Jeff Ricketts.

I noticed his name in the opening credits and it sounded familiar. So I checked imdb.com where it was that he played 'Spider Mmonster' in Sacrifice.
I know that imdb isn't always right, but who else would he play?

Just to put his name into perspective: Jeff Ricketts played "Weatherby" in Sanctuary, This Year's Girl and Who Are You?
He was also "Blue Glove #1" in Firefly's The Train Job and Ariel.

"Love is Pain, and Pain Leads You to Your Gift" (Spoilers for AtS 4.20, "Sacrifice") -- cjl, 20:32:37 04/23/03 Wed

You gotta give Joss and ME credit--once they develop a theme, it's followed through consistently, over seasons, through character arcs, and even across series.

The last half of Season 5 of BUFFY playing out on AtS: with Cordelia in a coma--maybe never coming back--Angel is as lost as Buffy was when Joyce died in "The Body"; Jasmine has slipped into Glory's overpriced shoes and the Fang Gang is running from an army of fanatical true believers, in a virtual replay of "Spiral"; and, once again, the hunted open up the gates and bring in the Trojan Horse.

We're also exploring the same themes BtVS did back at the end of Season 5, with a typical AtS twist. Unlike Buffy, who fought the emotional numbness and struggled to hold on to her compassion and love for her friends, Angel feels he's forced to metaphorically gut himself--cut out the love he felt for Jasmine, Connor and Cordy--otherwise, the pain would probably kill him.

But all through the ep, we're reminded that pain is what makes us human; it is the reminder of all the day-to-day battles of life, the millions of choices we have to make without any certainty those choices are right. Real love is impossible without the danger of pain. Fred refuses to give up thinking about Cordelia and Connor, refuses to give up the pain, because the pain is what gives her the strength to go on. Connor doesn't want to give up the pain, either: even when his beautiful goddess offers him the world, his instincts tell him Jasmine's gift is worthless. Give up your pain, and you hand your body and soul over to the Devourer.

I'm glad Jasmine hasn't turned out to be a False Messiah. She's the real deal, and that ups the drama a few hundred notches. When Angel and his friends lose Jasmine's love and their connection to the rest of her followers, they've truly lost something beautiful. Jasmine is going to bring peace and happiness to the entire world, and if a few of her followers have to be part of the noontime meal to do it, it's a small price to pay. (Besides--ultimate communion with the Goddess? Sounds "cool.")

But Jasmine isn't so much the Messiah as the Demiurge (sorry, Sol, I think she fits the bill better than Connor). She's the one who's draping a veil of illusion over the "real" world, reshaping reality to feed her apparently limitless ego. To beat her, Angel is going to have to undo her false creation--and all creations begin with The Word...

Brief bites:

-- Ben Edlund's first script for Angel is a mixed bag; a little slow in spots, and Jasmine seems to have developed a taste for flowery metaphors overnight. ("My love flies over the wings of radio!" Ooooo-kay.) But Edlund does weird as naturally as anyone on staff, and his entomological nightmare of a demon is a well-realized and even empathetic character, as bummed out by the loss of the Devourer's love as the Fang Gang. The insectoid's slo-motion vivisection of the understandably peeved vamp is effectively stomach- churning, much more viscerally disturbing than last week's "executive" demon.

-- Superb F/X. The insect demons and their home dimension look fantastic for a limited TV budget. (Maybe more people would have liked the Pylea arc if Lorne's homeworld was that utterly "alien.")

-- I'm getting a bad feeling about Cordelia. Anybody heard anything about Charisma's contract negotiations?

[> You think Angel's feeling of loss is over Cordy? -- Masq, 22:31:05 04/23/03 Wed

He seemed to slip into this "hard, no emotion" mode right after he got done knocking his son senseless. He believes-- no, he knows--in his heart he's lost his son, and regardless of whether that is true or not (the loss of Connor), Angel believes it and he doesn't want to feel the pain of it.

One thing that Jasmine gave Angel that no one else could give him was a few bonding moments with Connor.

My take on it, anyway.

[> [> Or maybe it's both? (spoilers for Sacrifice) -- oceloty, 00:32:28 04/24/03 Thu

Angel's troubles come not in single spies, but in battalions. He's lost Cordy. Now, I think he finally believes Connor is lost. (That "I know" was so sad.) The world is ending yet again, and all he has left are his friends and this impossible task of saving the world.

What a terrible place to be. Seems like the hardest thing he's ever done, to abandon his friends and step through the portal, and yet maybe it wasn't cutting out his heart that let him do it, but his love for them and respect for their sacrifice.

[> [> [> Before Angel stepped through the portal...... -- cjl, 12:56:39 04/24/03 Thu

He looked at his friends and felt a combination of boundless affection and intense pain when he realized they were about to sacrifice themselves for him (and for humanity). They were a team again, the Free Will Gang, fighting the good fight. It could have been a moment from "Awakening," except there wasn't going to be a happy ending.

One small consolation: Wes and the others made the sacrifice with their eyes wide open. The love was real.

[> [> [> [> ... he looked back. -- oceloty, 22:07:59 04/24/03 Thu

Thanks, cjl. That was beautiful.

I thought the end of "Sacrifice" was heartbreaking. After everything AI went through, they finally got their act together, only to get stomped on by fate (or Jasmine & Co). For one shining moment, they were a team again, working together to save the world. It made their sacrifices so beautiful, but also so tragic.

I think it would have been easier for Angel to die with his friends, than to leave them. The reluctant shuffle into the portal said it all. (sniff)

[> [> All about the pain.......spoilers for Sacrifice -- Rufus, 03:25:41 04/24/03 Thu

From Sacrifice

Jasmine: To belong, to truly be a part of something, you have to surrender to it completely. Cordelia has done that, but you..

Connor: I want to, really.

Jasmine: There's a part of you that you've kept from me...your pain.

Connor: I don't understand.

Jasmine: Pain has been the only constant in your life. The one thing that has never abandoned you...you think that pain is yours to keep and bear alone. But it's not, I want it..I want everything you are Connor...father...let it go...let me have it.

Connor: OK

Jasmine: OK

Angel and Connor share in the pain and the reation to pain department. Both hide their pain cause it's the one thing they have that is familiar, safe. If you notice every time that Angel has let go and shared himself with someone else from Buffy on, he has paid dearly for it. Connor is in the same position. He no longer trusts that life has anything more than pain to offer, so to keep safe part of him has been burnt bare of feeling...just as Angel suggests tonight. But just cause they deny their feelings their actions give them away. Connor still seeks out Cordy, and Angel still fights the good fight. They have more in common that people may think. Like father like son....the daughter is another story...;)

[> [> [> Connor's every action reveals that he's his father's son -- Masq, 12:21:04 04/24/03 Thu

Petulant. Broody. Self-absorbed. Heroic. Angry. Father issues up the ying-yang.

Leaps off tall buildings in a graceful bound without breaking his coconut. Tosses bad-guys (and Daddy) across the room like they were basketballs.

It's an amazing piece of work that both the writers and the actor (Vincent K.) have done to make Connor so much like his father when he wants nothing to do with Angel.

Of course, in that scene in the meat-packing plant with the virgin sacrifice one could see the gracefulness, sweetness and hair come from Mommy.

[> [> Matthew -- Masq, 06:08:01 04/24/03 Thu

Angel's pain over the loss of Connor was embodied in the character of Matthew. Here's this little pip-squeak lost boy living down in the sewers and he's got Connor's hair and clothes.

But unlike Connor, Matthew follows Angel around and admires him and his leadership role. Angel is in pain over the attention. His look at Matthew is like, "Hey, hair in face bad clothes day kid, why can't you be MY hair in face bad clothes day kid? Go away!"

And do we need to mention what Angel felt after Matthew saw Angel's vampire visage and ran away, then "betrayed" them all after he was brought back to their sewer-home by giving their location away to Jasmine?

Matthew WAS Connor.

[> [> [> Hit me. -- neaux, 06:40:04 04/24/03 Thu

Was there also relevance in Connor's beat down by Angel and Gunn's smack to Matthew? Other than that possible parallel, I didnt understand that particular scene of Gunn hitting Matthew.

On one hand, we have this shot of Fred awe-struck that Gunn hit this kid. But I didnt see the big deal. Gunn was trying to get the kid to safety.

Still, I'm wondering why this scene was even put in this episode? I dont think it really reflects Gunn's character. or if this is something the writers are trying to do to his Character, I think its a bad move.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hit me. -- LadyStarlight, 07:05:20 04/24/03 Thu

In terms of staging, the Gunn/Fred/Matthew scene reminded me very strongly of the Gunn/Fred/Seidel scene. Gunn/Victim on one side, Fred on the other. Fred's stunned reaction to Gunn's taking control of the situation.

In terms of plot -- I figured it was the quickest way to shut the kid up. It looked to me like Fred was going to try reasoning with him (no, we're your friends, really, just ignore the sun & the looneytunes voice in your head promising you safety & happiness) and they really didn't have time for that. I was thinking that Matthew was going to shout at any moment "these people are not my parents" -- but that could just be my warped sense of humour.

[> [> [> [> [> Gunn's choice -- Masq, 07:18:44 04/24/03 Thu

That was my thought, too. Fred was reliving watching Gunn kill Seidel with what seemed not a second thought. Without a word, Gunn decides the best way to deal with Matthew is to knock him out, and perhaps there wasn't another choice, but to stand there and watch this large man knock a child unconscious is jarring, and brought back the Seidel thing for Fred.

What does it say about Gunn? That he is willing to do things that seem over the edge when he believes they are necessary to get the job done. This makes him not unlike Wesley, who kept advocating to Faith that she become "as vicious as Angelus" in order to capture him. Gunn is not as far into that philosophy as Wesley, but he is willing to do things that stray close to the line when he feels they're necessary.

It's morally ambiguous, but I don't think it is some deep foreboding about where Gunn's character is going.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the reassurance! -- neaux, 07:29:29 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Being a shell -- luna, 18:24:16 04/26/03 Sat

I thought Gunn's hitting Matthew was related to what Fred said about that time, about becoming a shell--Angel had said something about not being able to have feelings any longer, and Gunn had agreed, later, but Fred said that she'd rather feel the guilt and pain of killing Seidel than be empty, feel nothing. I thought Gunn had gone that route, of feeling nothing--that belonging to Jasimine is one way of being destroyed, but letting yourself become inhuman to oppose her is equally destructive, and that hitting the kid illustrated that.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hit me. -- lunasea, 09:59:19 04/24/03 Thu

If they had talked to him, they would have found out he had been Jasminized. It would have complicated things.

What caused Matthew to turn though? He hadn't talked to anyone. He hadn't heard Jasmine speak. Is she now in the very air? Or was it him seeing the sun and having hope again.

What struck me about that exchange was when he asked them why they didn't tell him the sun had returned.

[> [> [> Re: Matthew (I agree) -- Rufus, 22:05:31 04/24/03 Thu

Matthew was an idealized form of Connor. But he also was used as a prod to Angel to feel something about the son he had just beat the shit out of. Both Angel and Connor have expectations of the other than are impossible to live up to. Connor is too damaged to automatically fit into the mold of adoring son....though if you notice he was happy with pod- Angel. That Angel, Connor was acting like a son with. It was when the euphoria (I don't see it as true love but more of an addiction to a feeling) of the Jasmine whammy wore off that Connor became hostile again. I find the reaction of Connor to Angel seeing Jasmine as she really is interesting. He said that Angel ruins everything...I wonder exactly how he meant that. Matthew reminds Angel of that hope he had for a son...and Matthew's rejection of him when he see's his true face is a reflection of Connor.

[> [> [> [> Oooh! -- Masq, 07:14:31 04/25/03 Fri

and Matthew's rejection of him when he see's his true face is a reflection of Connor.

I hadn't thought of the parallels between Matthew running away when he sees Angel's vamp face to Angel's reaction to Jasmine's rotted face.

As for it being Angel's "true" face, I don't believe that. Being a vampire is part of who Angel is, but it is not "who" he is. He is more than the vampire.

Likewise, I don't think when people look at Jasmine's rotted face they are seeing her "true" face, either. Her true face is something we can't conceive of, something that belongs to another reality. Maybe she doesn't even have a face there. I think the rotted-face is just a temporary hallucination brought on by Jasmine's blood, maybe part of some mojo set up a long time ago to protect humans from her kind.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh! -- Rufus, 16:45:12 04/25/03 Fri

I used the term "true" face cause Connor asked Angel at one point what his real face looked like. Holtz had made sure that Connor would be phobic about what his fathers face would look like when vamped cause there would be that inner fear that if Dad is a monster, what else could Connor be.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh! -- Masq, 17:10:49 04/25/03 Fri

there would be that inner fear that if Dad is a monster, what else could Connor be.

A self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Connor has turned into a monster. And ironically, if Connor had been more accepting and open-minded of his vampire father, he would be a champion by now instead.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh! -- RadiusRS, 20:59:39 04/25/03 Fri

If you remember, there was an episode last season when Angel was trying to calm baby Connor and failing at it with hilarious results. It is when baby Connor see Amgel's vamp face that he stops fussing and starts playing with daddy. I think this is essential to Angel's arc throughour the show(and check for a link to an SFX interview with David Boreanaz in the Archives or on Whedonesque.com where he confirms this). Part of the premise of the show is that, after having gone evil, lost his reason for being when she sent him to hell, spent a thousand years in hell, and returned only to realize he couldn't be with Buffy, Angel is having a harder time than he's ever had relating to people. Connor seems like his first real chance, a reward from the universe, someone who loves him for everything he is. The great irony of course, other than Connor eventually becoming a monster anyway, is that Matthew confirmed Angel's idea that no one will ever love him for who he truly is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh! -- Rufus, 22:45:25 04/25/03 Fri

Yes, I remember that ep...and the fact that as a baby the one face that calmed Connor was the face that Angel was ashamed of. From Psyche's transcripts.....Dad s3

Angel leans down over the cradle: "You know what, you're fed, you're changed. I hold you, you cry. I put you down, you cry. What do you want me to do here? (The baby cries.) I'm a terrible father. (Picks up the baby) I can't even get him to stop crying."

Lorne: "Yeah, well, it's getting a little tense - your vibe, that is."

Angel: "My vibe? What vibe?"

Lorne: "Oh, just the incredibly anxious one that's been coming of you in waves ever since he was born. He's deeply connected to you. If you're wound this tight, how do you think he's gonna feel?"

Angel: "Hey, he's not even a day old and he's got an enemies list. How would you feel? Wouldn't you be a little edgy?"

Lorne: "Yeah. I'd also be in awe. Look at him."

Angel looks down at the screaming baby in his arms.

Lorne: "He's more than a mission, bro. *Look* at him. Look at him."

Lorne turns and walks out of the room as Angel keeps looking at the baby, a slight smile tugging at the corner of his mouth. Angel sits down in a chair.

Angel: "It's all right. It's gonna be alright. It's gonna be all right."

The baby continues to scream.

Angel: "Hey. Shh."

Angel makes a face and silly noises.

Angel: "Do you like that?"

The baby continues to scream.

Angel: "Well, obviously. Okay. How about this one?"

Angel pulls on his ears, makes another face and silly noises. The baby continues to scream.

Angel: "Okay. I only got one more in me."

Angel sighs and morphs into vamp-face. The baby looks up at him, stops crying and after a moment its eyes start drooping. A big smile spreads over Angel's face.

Angel: "Yeah, that's my little guy! You like that, don't you? A bootchee-wootchee..."

I was almost surprised that Angel didn't have that moment of perfect happiness when Connor stopped crying. Connor as an infant accepted Angel bumps and all. It took years growing up with Holtz to change that.

From A New World s3

Sunny: "Hmm, food, cash, a place to crash. I've had worse days. How about you? (Connor looks away, not answering) So, what's your deal? (Connor looks at her) Why did you come to LA?"

Connor: "To find my father."

Sunny: "Really? Heh. I came here to get away from mine. - Parents should have to take like a test or something, before they can have kids. And if they're - drunks, or idiots, or evil - they should be sterilized."

Connor: "If they're evil they should be killed."

Connor seems to have a one solution fits all mentality proved later in the episode when Sunny dies....

Angel: "Why? Who're you tracking?"

Connor makes a grab for the jacket, but Angel stops him. A quick search of the pockets brings out another packet of drugs.

Angel: "Right. I get it. You're going after they guy that gave her the junk."

Connor: "His medicine killed her."

Angel: "And you're going to do what about it?"

Connor: "Punish."

Angel: "You mean, kill."

Angel gets to show his face to an older Connor, one that is less accepting and more biased.

Connor steps closer to Angel: "My father told me everything."

Angel after a beat: "Your father. - Holtz isn't your father. He's..."

Connor hits Angel across the face, hard.

Connor: "You don't get to say that name! You don't even get to think it!"

Angel straightens back up and just looks at Connor.

Connor: "I know - everything. He told me all about you. That you're a - a *thing* that kills and drinks blood. You're a vampire."

Angel: "What do you know about vampires?"

Connor: "Decapitation, stake in the heart, daylight, fire - did I forget anything? - You have a second face. A face for killing. - Show it to me. I wanna see it."

When Angel just stands there looking at him, Connor starts punching Angel in the chest.

Connor: "Come on, show me! Show me the face you used to kill my father's family. Show me! Come on! Show me!"

Connor aims his next punch at Angel's face, but Angel catches his fist and holds it still.

Angel, quietly: "Looks like this, son."

Angel morphs into his vamp face and Connor pulls his fist free and stumbles a couple of steps back.

Connor: "That's what you are."

Angel: "It's part of what I am. (Morphs back into his human face) A part I hope you will be able to accept one day."

Connor: "You'd have to kill me first."

Connor has come a long way and part of his evolution has included finding out that he is part demon...that led him to check out his face in a way someone might hunt for a blemish....and Cordy (master) took full advantage of that. This is when Connor stopped being one of us and became one of them....you know the special ones....they can be anyone who has decided that they have something that makes them superior to everything else living..it's also a way of getting someone to stop thinking of others as equals and more like vermin. Connor went from wanting to punnish Angel for being a killer of humans to helping Cordy kill a girl so his child could be born. But does that make him a monster or someone under just another form of mind control?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What is a monster? -- Masq, 04:48:00 04/26/03 Sat

If you believe that there is absolute good or evil in the world, then no, Connor is not a monster. He is certainly a victim of a lot of circumstance.

But he knew when he came back from hell that there was one thing he didn't want to be--he didn't want to be like Angelus. He feared what might be inside him and he seemed determined to deny it, fight it, or perhaps even realize there was nothing scary in there to begin with.

He had it within him to stand up to "Cordelia" in the end. Yes, her manipulation was long, slow, subtle. She didn't break out the "help me kill this virgin" thing until after she'd hit him with a lot of other crap.

But the red light went on after Willow restored Angel's soul and Connor questioned "Cordelia" for asking him to kill Angelus right before he got his soul back.

And the light went on again when "Cordelia" asked him to help her kill that virgin.

That little voice that said "I don't want to be like my parents" should have been blazing when Darla told him that's exactly how he WAS acting.

But it didn't.

Was it all "Cordelia's" fault Connor couldn't hear the voice of his own convictions? Was it all Holtz' fault? Was Connor giving into weaknesses for family and belonging even greater than his fear of becoming his parents? Yes.

But he also listened to "Cordelia's" diatribe about them being superior beings. That was the part he didn't have to accept. That was the part that did not play into his previous fears and psychological complexes. Fearing being part-demon or fearing having a killer inside of you just like Angelus, fearing being alone without family or a place in the world--those are Connor's fears.

What is a monster? A monster is someone who thinks they have the right to kill other beings, not for food or self-defense or anything necessary to life, but because they see another being as inferior to them. Thinking here of Nazi Germany or any other of a number humankind's crimes against humankind.

How did those people get where they are? A lot of unfortunate circumstances in their society--poverty, bad government, etc. A lot of diatribe. People in those societies became monsters, for a while.

Does that mean they are forever condemned to that fate? No. Neither is Connor. But it's going to take more than lifting a spell to turn Connor around. It's going to take effort from him. And from Angel (who, let's face it, has been negligent in this, too). And from the rest of the gang. But from Connor especially.

I'm not trying to bash Connor here. Hey, he's my new favorite character--so cute I could just eat'm up! But I do think there's metaphorical irony in him becoming the very thing he was always afraid of becoming.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We all have some monster in us. -- WickedBuffy (just in different proportions), 14:25:44 04/26/03 Sat

"But he also listened to "Cordelia's" diatribe about them being superior beings. That was the part he didn't have to accept. That was the part that did not play into his previous fears and psychological complexes. Fearing being part-demon or fearing having a killer inside of you just like Angelus, fearing being alone without family or a place in the world--those are Connor's fears."

I agree with your other words, but not exactly with that one. I think being told he was a "superior being" fit right into alleviating his fears that he was an inferior being, a demon. His complex and utter phobia of being less than human wouldn't have made as much of a difference if Cordy had been saying "look Connor, we ARE normal! You and I, we are very average regular people."

"Superior" to Connor could have meant superior to his parents, who were who he didn't want to be as low and evil as. That fit right into breaking down his fears and previous complexes.

As for the killing? Another fear he was very driven by was being alone, without a family. Cordy made a family for him, he had his own secure special place in it, and like many family-oriented people - he would do anything to protect them and keep them whole. I'm not saying we'd go around killing virgins to do it - but Connor grew up in a very violent dimension, growing up there with all the killing and fighting - I think that also influenced how far he could easily and naturally go to do what was needed for his family.

But, it is also a possible vulnerability in Jasmines power over him. His bond with Cordy is strong and has gone on for much longer than with Jasmine. And c'mon, Connor might be the dad in one sense, but his newborn child is a fullgrown, fully mature woman. Where was the parent child bonding for years in that? Connors relationship with Cordy was more normal and familiar.

Demons in the show are monsters because Joss got to invent them and define them and say so.

People in the show might do monsterous things at times, some more than others, but they aren't monsters. It's like pigeonholing Cordy by calling her EvilCordy instead of Cordy who is doing some evil things. People are never absolute - especially in Jossverse!

Question re: DG -- Marianne, 22:15:51 04/23/03 Wed

Hey, I watched Dirty Girls' twice and was trying to see how Faith left (after being trounced upon by Caleb) the vineyard with the rest of the Scoobies...never saw her get up or leave or anything.

Then at the hospital, no Faith!!

Anyone with any speculation? Or is this just a mess up with the shooting of the scene (methinks otherwise actually).

Also, on a side note, what is the deal with the reruns between eps? I am beginning to think that Joss is truly evil (well I have thought it for a great deal of time but I am rethinking it again). I am getting tired of it, really. End the show already, it's making me mad!! (sorry for the rant)

Also (sorry I keep rambling about it), what is the deal with Caleb uttering the "glory" line at the end and making references to Eve (Adam and Eve anyone?). I know he was just quoting the bible and all, but he even made the reference to Faith about her being the Cain to Buffy's Abel (or something to that effect). I'm thinking there is a serious Book of Genesis issue at Mutant Enemy.


[> Re: Question re: DG -- Ray, 04:29:26 04/24/03 Thu

I don't see Faith as sitting around licking her wounds. She probably went out on patrol to counter the defeat with some victories.
Or she went whereever Spike went (unless he was in the hospital, I don't recall).

Theory on why the Bringers have no eyes (spoilers up to BtVS 7.16 and a reference to Ats4.20) -- RadiusRS, 23:19:40 04/23/03 Wed

Was rewatching "Never Leave Me" and "Storyteller" recently and came up with an idea as to why those gosh darn Bringers have symbols instead of eyes. Remember how the SG found out that tears of regret were the only way to close the Seal? No eyes, no tears, no closing of the seal. "But Andrew was the one who activated the seal!" Yeah, but it was a Bringer that cut Spike with the symbols and released the first Turok- han. Seems the Bringers were off killing SITs, or otherwise they would have opened the seal for the First. Also, it has been established that the markings on the blade Andrew used were essential to the spell therefore requiring their physical connection before the blood falls on the seal. This parallels the current storyline on Angel (the Devourer worshipping monster, Jasmine's consecration in a virgin's blood, the power of the blood to break her spell), especially in light of the monster's reference to "flesh magic" as being much stronger than "word magic". Both the Devourer and the First are older than almost anything else, so it makes sense that their greatest power (and weakness) would be The Magic Before Words.

Character arcs through Angel 4.20 -- RadiusRS, 03:22:02 04/24/03 Thu

What an episode. With Angel beating Connor with such intensity, a new hope for our heroes, Cordy's dissappearance and Connor's final surrender, I'm doing all I can to not spoil myself (more) for the last two episodes. Please forgive me if this post isn't as structured as previous ones.

First: Jasmine's newest powers. Anyone realize how Jasmine keeps upping the amount of people she eats? And how it's seems to be getting faster? In "Shiny Happy People", she ate the young lady and the man with a house, then asked for a pair of twins. In "The Magic Bullet", she ate three people, and it seems to have taken her a few minutes to digest them. By "Sacrifice", Jasmine is now eating four at a time in a matter of seconds. And judging by the previews of next week's show, she's growing hungrier (as any good Devourer should). Wonder why the taste of clothes disagree with her though. Now to her new powers, including that creepy "speaking through others" thing. Did that creep anyone else out? Especially when the first person to do so was the latino gang-banger; I was chilled and thrilled to laughter at the same time. But when Matthew started speaking with her voice....brrr....now THAT was weird. And it seems that now the Jasminites are able to turn others without the necessity of seeing or hearing her (though technically that WAS Jasmine's voice they heard, it seemed to take a little prodding for them to become fully enchanted). But the creepiest example so far has to be Connor in his bright red shirt (black and red seem to be sure signs of evil in the Buffyverse i.e. Dark Cordy's black, Glory's red dress, black-clad Dark Willow, both early and current Spike and Dru, and even Angel, to show his dark nature). Something about that androygnous look with that sweet feminine voice just felt so wrong to me. She healed instantly from the wounds that appeared as her followers fought the AI gang, and even healed Connor. Filly, Connor's fateful choice. The exchanges in this episode confirmed some of the board's speculation that Connor chose to betray his true family, though this choice was based on his distrust of magic (funny how he doesn't mention the magic Jasmine does) and Jasmine's manipulations. But by allowing him to take her pain, he gave up his last scrap of humanity, the last thing that made him human. Now Darla made a point of saying how she would ALWAYS be in Connor's heart; is she still there or has Jasmine consumed her? Could she be the one thing that kept Connor from succumbing and could she be his last hope? While I still believe that Connor can be redemmed, the Devil that is Jasmine has tempted him with what he has always wanted, and isn't that exactly how the Devil snares us?

Next is Cordy's dissapearance and its implications. While I doubt that Jasmine consumed her, the talk that she still isn't signed on for next season worries me. While she is a Devourer, is she also a destroyer? Her m.o. seems to be that she consumes things by making them a part of her, much like we consume food and air and make them a part of us. But her dissappearance is still pretty distressing to me because Jasmine (and other Big Bads like the First) seem willing to sacrifice essential parts of their plans on the fly if it will threaten their power. Jasmine said Cordy was dangerous to them after she realized Cordy's blood was a cure, and her failures with Fred and Angel seem to have made her more willing to sacrifice people (plus that crazy cackling as wounds appeared all over her body). She also stated that Cordy had given Jasmine her pain, had succumbed to her. A lie? Or did having the Beastmaster inside her for so long affect Cordy permanently? My guess is that she is in the dimension where Angel is right now, where Jasmine thinks she's safe because she already has the scorpion- people in that dimension. But either that connection was severed when Jasmine passed into this world or it just doesn't wok in this dimension because Jasmine seems unaware that one of her old followers has, well, followed her here. Ironic how one creature's undying love of Jasmine (which is the tool she perverts and uses to control others) brought him to this dimension so he could return to her, and it is that love for her which has given our heroes their only opportunity to defeat her. So I think Jasmine might have hidden Cordelia there if Cordy isn't already gone.

I was shocked at Angel's brutality, though I can't say I condemn him. Since Jasmine arrived, Connor and Angel became closer. For Angel, Connor's betrayal (again), must've been the last straw (he gives him all these chances and Connor still denies his true father). Tonight, Angel sensed Connor in the sewers. I doubt he heard him, because Jasmine spoke with his voice, and I doubt he smelled him, because there were so many people, not to mention sewage and bloody entrails lying around. My belief is that Jasmine's arrival has "awoken" some kind of pre-existing bond between Connor and Angel, and it persists though Angel is cured and Connor is fully Jasmine's because of the biological connection between Angel, Connor, and Jasmine. Angel has been much darker since returning from the hell dimension (although I've heard some saying he was there for a hundred years and others that he was there for a thousand), and understandably so. Hell, Connor was only there for 17 years and he thinks his dad can't relate to him. Part of me thinks that this was expected due to the FE and Jasmine's manipulations. But since then, Angel's life gets a little better, then a lot worse, then better again, then way worse. Is it any surprise he's a lot meaner and ruthless than he was before Angelus' first reappearance? And thank God because that romantic, broody, tortured thing was getting old even then. Now he's just sarcastic and judgemental. But I'm glad to see how hard it was for him to leave the humans and Lorne behind before entering the portal.

Some of the surprise revelations from this episode were Fred and Gunn. How cool was it to see Fred kick that guy's ass at the gas station? Go Fred! And this despite all of the suffering she's been through. And anyone else notice how Gunn's brutal K.O. of Matthew was almost exactly the same as Connor's K.O. of the virgin in "Inside Out"? (probably even shot on the same set) Ever since Wesley's betrayal last season, Gunn has become more and more aggresive (possibly due in part to Billy's influence? It certainly worked for Wes). Now don't get me wrong...I love his character and would hate to see him killed off, but I think a trip to the Dark Side is in the cards for our boy (first Wesley last season, Cordelia this season in a major way, looks like Gunn is next because, after them, he's been around Angel the longest...and isn't it weird how the people in his life are being put through same character arc that he was?). But the way he treated that kid he used to run with (didn't he grow up with the kid's brother?), the KO punch, his cockiness, his arrogance, even arguably sleeping with Gwen seem to be leading in that direction. Now "Players" has been one of my favorite episodes this season (right up there with "The Zeppo" and "Storyteller" as among the best ME supporting character stand alone eps I've seen), and finally showcased his strengths and how he's grown as a character, but the way he talks down to Fred. Despite being kidnapped and hurled into a demon dimension where she was a slave, Fred still maintains her best qualities, one of which is the strength we all knew she had (she didn't) but didn't truly see until "The Magic Bullet". I feel for Gunn since he lost so many close people to vampires, but his lack of sympathy for what Fred went through in Pylea is shocking to me (see "Supersymmetry"). How ironic that in the very action he commited murder, he also proved his love to Fred. Plus, of all the AI gang, he has been the most vocal about missing Jasmine's "connection" and feeling like everything would be good (the Devil once again giving our heroes what they want the most). He made some good points to Fred though, about her feelings at the time, and his Mission is what Matters attitude parallels both Angel and Buffy's arcs this season (someone made an excellent note of how Jasmine has been pushing Angel into harming those he loves most this season with Connor and Cordy and the emergence of Angelus in another thread), but so did Fred saying she'd prefer the pain to being a shell. But he seems to have lost some humanity, and he likes playing Big Dawg to all the people from his past we've meet, when previously, his attitude was that those were the most important people in the world to him; the only reason he ever left them was because he knew he could do more good with Angel and the gang. And the cracks this season about him being just the muscle? I think, in season 5, Gunn will somehow change into something much stronger, maybe for the worst.

One final note that doesn't have much to do with this episode...every single season of Angel Cordelia has become impregnated. In season 1, it was that demon who turned her into a mommy overnight; in season 2, she was taken to Pylea as a breeding mare for the Grooslaug; in season 3, there was an eye put in the back of her head that would have grown into a demon; and now season 4. Makes you wonder how evil Joss and his cronies truly are, huh?

[> Re: Character arcs through Angel 4.20 -- Ray, 04:22:43 04/24/03 Thu

Good review. One correction in your last paragraph. Cordelia had the eye put into her head in year 2 not year 3.

[> [> Re: Character arcs through Angel 4.20 -- RadiusRS, 08:30:23 04/24/03 Thu

Thanks for that, I wonder why I thought it was three. I also made a mistake about the Pylea arc because she didn't get impregnated then, but she was going to be. That got me thinking...she was kidnapped because of the visions right? But she wasn't demony at the time, just visiony and still human, a rarity which is why the priests wanted HER specifically. So maybe Jasmine was trying to make a mother out of Cordy even then. I mean, the Grooslaug seems to have many of the same abilities that Connor does, and also grew up in a hell dimension, maybe that affected them in some way that Jasmine needed, kind of like radiation poisoning or something. I mean, are they called Hell dimensions because they're hellish in nature (such as Heavenly dimensions are paradisical in nature) or because it's hell to live there? The Devourer had already seen the potential of a father since the trials, and maybe wanted to make a mother from Cordy and Groo. Then it's plans were frustrated by Angel and the gang, and it saw that maybe's Angel's child might be more powerful than it had suspected at first (for there were certainly hints in the last few episodes of season 2 that something like this was coming, I can tell you which ones when the DVDs come out cause I haven't seen those episodes since they first aired, mostly themes of fatherhood such as Wesley and his father). By seeing their strengths, it got the idea that it could play on those strengths to make itself a stronger vessel, therefore the strategy of killing them with kindness. It played on and fanned Angel's twisted relationship with Darla, Darla's love for Connor (her sacrifice), and Cordy's love for Angel.

It used Cordelia's goodness and appealed to her ego by giving her the life she wanted, then showing her how selfish it would be for her to keep that life, knowing which choice Cordy would make. In "Epiphany", Wesley states that she sees the suffering of L.A. and, in turn, her own viciousness in the past (remember, her desire was so strong, it led to a universe where the bad guys had already won, and only Alternate Giles was able to save the world...and no one remembered except Anya...poor Giles, with everyone talking about Xander like he's hot shit for saving the world). Maybe that pain, combined with the pain from the visions, made Cordy convinced that she had to become part demon. But she should have known that the Powers That Be never intervene this directly. It's more often a vision like Darla and possibly Joyce or an oracle (which is what cordy is). I believe this pain had a profound effect on Cordy as seen in "To Shanshu in L.A.", and a chance to alleviate that pain; seems like the Devourer's m.o.

So now it had an oven, and a father, but needed to speed up it's deadline. And so it got Sahjhian to get to work. Couldn't Sahjian time travel? So he gets Holtz, someone from Angel's past to keep him in check, and the Powers That Be allow it because they think it might be a good chance to get rid of Sahjhian and allow the scales to be balanced against Angel because of his sins as Angelus AND as Angel (see "Orpheus", "Are you Now or Have you Ever", and the W & H massacre). The Devourer saw this as a chance to send Connor to a hell dimension both to irradiate him in those energies and to speed up his growth so that he would be at the right age to conceive her. So it brings him back with a major chip on his shoulder, to keep Angel distracted, at his sexual prime. See, the longer this thing waits, the more chance it has of being found out. So it ascends Cordy to the higher plane, where it can easily hijack her, and drives a deep wedge between Connor and Angel by playing on Holtz's love for his family, Justine's love for Holtz and her sister, and Connor's love for Holtz. When Cordy affected the physical world in "The House Always Wins" to save Angel, the Devourer knew that Cordy was now powerful enough to be a threat to it and/or showed that it's mommy had absorbed enough heavenly power to allow it to make it's vessel. Last season, Cordy healed Connor by absorbing something from him, perhaps evil energies to balance the good from the heavenly dimension. By combining bits of heaven and hell in Cordy, it enhances its ability to enter this dimension and restore the balance. It pushes Connor and Cordy together, gets It's memory back, summons the Beast, the Rain of Fire, conceives itself, yadda yadda yadaa now Cordy's evil. Perhaps in "The Wish", the Devourer saw something in Cordy that could, literally, change the world. Or maybe it just took advantage of Doyle's sacrifice to give Cordy the visions. Cordy's pain at Xander's betrayal called evil the first time, and her pain from the visions called it a second time. But if the show proves anything, it's that humans have good AND bad sides. By taking advantage of Cordy's pain and Connor's pain, and their need to feel loved, it enters the last phase of this part of its plan. By taking advantage of Cordelia's nurturing naturing, and using the fact that Cordelia's always been brutally honest, it perverts her best qualities to fool the gang. Meanwhile, it's hold on Cordy grows (perhaps Cordy running off at the end of "Spin the Bottle" was a glimpse of the real Cordy realizing what her actions had wrought as the Beastmaster awakened, unable to face her friends so she runs off before being overpowered by the Devourer, breaks Angel's heart, and runs off to groom Connor. The Beast uses Angel's love for Cordy and estrangement with Connor to send Angel to witness the act that will keep him distracted for a while. She keeps grooming Connor to protect her, all the while pouring her essence into the baby, leaving her in a much more vulnerable state, which is why Willow could defeat her (AND because Willow's a badass). By playing on Connor's love of Cordy and the baby, it moves him to commit a heinous act. And by proclaiming her love as Jasmine (which it had already devoured from Connor, plus Cordy's love and pain), she enters this world, with a desire to unite with love so she can have a buffet. I guess they don't have Italian, Chinese, and Mexican where she comes from.

To the Devourer, love is sacrifice, and sacrificing the whole world means loving it to her. So she sets out to alleviate the pain that Connor and Cordy felt, and what better place to start than L.A. huh? We've seen human and demon monsters in the last four seasons, and the earthquakes, rain of fire, and blotting out of the sun were essential to drive the citizens of L.A. into a terrified state. As mentioned by the Japanese guy in "Players": "something good MUST be coming". So they were ripe for the picking, desperate to get away from that pain. But Dark Willow showed us what pain can do.

So after meeting the gang, Jasmine begins to absorb their essences, so her cause becomes theirs and vice versa, the stamping out of evil. It's also a clever way to get rid of the competition (more Shiny Happy Meals for baby Jasmine!). As more people succumb to her, her love grows because she caused a lot of people to wish that that something good came along, so that's the form she took (kind of like the Marshmallow Man and Gozer in Ghostbusters). As her power grows, it becomes easier for her to enthrall others, as she now has all the resources (which was why W&H was taken out early on, because they had the resources to find out about her as proven by Lilah's copy of the Compendium with the Beast). I think Jasmine feeds on the love and pain of people which is why she came here, because it makes us so tasty. She drained the Scorpions world and abandoned them, that one monster devoting his dying breath to Jasmine when all he wanted was for her to eat him, and after all the hard work they put into building her temples! So is Jasmine evil because she is being true to her nature as Devourer? No. She's evil because of how she perverts love and the truth in order to further her agenda. Not to mention all the killing- and eating-people-ness. And where is a lie best hidden? Between two truths.

[> Saving this thread until I can respond -- Masq, 07:22:20 04/24/03 Thu

Very interesting stuff!

[> Jasmine, Connor, Cordelia... -- Masq, 13:18:56 04/24/03 Thu

Jasmine's "eating": I'm wondering if the increase in eating depends on the size of the population she's trying to control. To control a small section of L.A., she needs a couple people. To control a state, or a country, or a world, she'll need to up that proportionally. Once she has it all under control, will she level off? Drop her consumption level? I guess I'm wondering because I don't want her entire agenda to be around how many people she has to consume. I like to think she's 'bulking up" for the job ahead, but once her brave new world is in place, she won't need to consume as many.

I have too many thoughts. ; )

Connor with Jasmine's voice

But the creepiest example so far has to be Connor in his bright red shirt. Something about that androygnous look with that sweet feminine voice just felt so wrong to me.

Vincent K.'s an interesting actor. I read an interview with him in which he was told by someone directing one of the season 3 episodes "not to be so feminine when he ran". One minute, he comes across as this tough testosterone-y kick- ass Angel junior. The next he's this angelic, Renaissance- painting child with a beatific expression on his face. Vincent K. brings a sweet, feminine quality to Connor's male toughness which is part of why the character is so endearing, but when a woman's voice came out of his mouth, it just made the whole mystique a little too unambiguous.

Connor's choice: down the board, I asked this question, but so far haven't gotten an answer:

Cordelia's blood cured Connor of the mind-mojo, but he didn't need the mind-mojo to believe. I think this is what that scene with Jasmine digging her fingernails into his hand was supposed to signify. Jasmine is waxing poetic about the big palace they're going to have in her brave new world and Connor looks kind of like his genetic-sneer broody-boy glum self. He loves Jasmine, but he's mojo-free.

Jasmine sees this, and she either (1) doesn't want to see him unhappy, or (2) ain't taking any chances with a mojo- free champion, or (3) both. So she asks him to "consent" to going back under the mojo again by asking him to "give me your pain". Connor allows her to take his pain away, and he is back under the mojo again. Otherwise, I don't think he would have been talking with Jasmine's voice in the tunnels when he heads in there to find the gang. Is that how other people saw it?

Cordelia's disappearance: Jasmine sits down on the bed at Cordelia's feet and instructs Connor to leave. When he returns, she hasn't moved from the spot where she sat down, but Cordy's gone. OF COURSE we're supposed to assume she ate her. But I don't think the writers would leave Cordy's arc with that ending, even if Charisma isn't coming back next year.

More comments coming later....

[> [> Re: Jasmine, Connor, Cordelia... -- Arethusa, 10:16:13 04/25/03 Fri

Connor allows her to take his pain away, and he is back under the mojo again. Otherwise, I don't think he would have been talking with Jasmine's voice in the tunnels when he heads in there to find the gang. Is that how other people saw it?

Yes, it is. But now I have more questions. Under Jasmine's spell, it seems people still can feel pain, although Jasmine promises to take away all their pain. Gunn's still bitter about Fred, Angel and Connor still brood. When Jasmine is trying to convince Connor, she inflicts pain on him, drawing blood. When her followers are being injured, she laughs in delight, literally absorbing their cuts. Does she feed on pain? Did she absorb the humans to absorb their pain? Now that Jasmine's absorbed Connor's pain, will it be gone when/if the spell is broken, or will it still be there like after Corrdy's soul colonic?

[> [> [> Connor's pain is still there, I think -- Masq, 10:57:54 04/25/03 Fri

Inside Connor. Just the way he says, in his own voice, "Angel" when he's down in the sewers while hunting down the gang makes me think so.

Or is that completely, totally Jasmine acting through him? Is that simply Jasmine's new (since Angel was tainted) dislike of Angel?

It seemed so natural coming out of Connor, that disdain for Angel, that I felt like Connor hadn't changed at all. Maybe he's totally channeling Jasmine now, but it still seems to me he went down into that sewer with a special mission to bring Daddy's dust back as a special trophy for Jasmine, not just to capture the whole gang.

Seems to me Connor's issues are alive and well and living right where they always have--in Connor. The only thing Jasmine did for him with that fingernail thing was put him back under her thrall.

We'll have to stay tuned for next week, I suppose.

[> [> Jasmine's Appetite(s) -- Philistine, 17:22:46 04/25/03 Fri

A different idea occurred to me re: Jasmine's increased appetite. Yes, she has more people under her control now, and yes, she's eating more people. Perhaps it's as you speculate, she needs the extra calories to deal with her increasingly busy days. On the other hand, what if the reason she's eating more people now is just because she can? With more people under her sway, she can afford to cull out more of them to become tasty snacks while still retaining enough unconsumed "talky meats" to continue to expand her base and maintain a sufficient semblance of normality in her domain that the rest of the world doesn't twig to what's going on there before she's ready for them. I'm not saying it's at all likely, but it's a thought I had and thought I'd share. (And yes, I am leaning toward the idea that her copy of "How to Serve Humans" is a cookbook. As if you couldn't already tell.)

As far as Cordy goes, I certainly hope Jasmine didn't eat her. That would be much too obvious. And my gut feeling is that if she had, she'd most likely have told Connor flat out. It's not that she wouldn't lie to him - more like she wouldn't bother lying to him. No, I think - well, okay, hope - that Jasmine did exactly what she said: moved Cordy elsewhere for safekeeping.

Was anyone else seriously squicked by that Jasmine/Connor scene where she talked about how they'd live together as a family after she took over the world? For some reason she just didn't come across (to me, anyway) as entirely daughterly in that scene. Speaking for myself, I really, really, really don't need to watch ME prove they're not afraid to violate the incest taboo. C/C was plenty bad enough for me. Or am I seeing things that aren't there?

[> [> [> Nuh uh -- Alison, 18:15:51 04/25/03 Fri

..you're not alone in picking up the creepy incest vibe. Honestly, I know Greek tragedy leaves plently of room for expansion and improvement, but does EVERYTHING on this show have to be incestous?

[> [> [> She's very affectionate -- Masq, 18:19:30 04/25/03 Fri

But so far, as Jasmine, she hasn't shown a sexual interest in any human being, other than making them take off their clothes before chomping down.

The way she is constantly brushing Connor's hair out of his face and calling him endearments is a little squicky, but you gotta admit, his hair does get in his face a lot.

And I think he needs all that attention and affection to make him shiny-happy. In some ways, she's less a daughter and more of a smothering mother/splatonic lover.

What to do when your deity breaks up with you....or "Wait your turn talky" spoilers for Sacrifice -- Rufus, 03:54:04 04/24/03 Thu

Wes has lots of questions tonight, and some of them were answered. But I'll focus on his chat with the insect artist.

insect: We loved her first!

Wes: All right, you loved her first.

insect: Before your kind was. My kind loved her. Stood stone on stone built the temple. Always making ready.
(crys) But SHE came HERE.

Wes: She? Jasmine?

insect: Eh?

Wes: Jasmine, that's what we call her..the superior being that you loved first.

insect: Pfah! You name her filthy mice. She is the DEVOURER....the song...the WHOLE....and you try to name her.
Work to do....we loved her first.

Wes: And how does your kind define love?

insect: Same as all bodies...same as everywheres...Love is Sacrifice.

Wes: That door is open.

insect: Yes

Wes: Aren't you worried I'll just run away?

insect: No, not worried good at catching furries.

Wes: Yes, clearly..so you're not from around here are you?

insect: No. Other world...older world. You go on, use my KEY (for those wondering, I gather that wasn't a walk on cameo for Dawn) What we breathing there burn out little mouse lungs before you can make a peep.

Wes: Fair enough

insect: Fair enough..fair enough..enough.

Wes: You preparing a spell?

insect: Hmmmm This blood magic. Flesh magic...older than words..more much power...this magic she will hear..she will hear and remember her true ones.

Wes: So, no incantations then?

insect: No words....pheh...She gives no care about words...word magic.

Wes: Really?

insect: There is only one word she ....

Wes: One word? What word does she give care about?

insect: YOU is talky meat...don't make me come down there.

At this point the insect thrusts his hand/whatever into what seems to be a man....

Vamp: Ahhhh my God!....What is it with you, man? This is disgusting.

insect: You!

Vamp: Just drop the cliche serial killer crap and stake me already.....please.

insect: I tear your guts all inside out....I stitch your guts every all over...why don't you go dead?

Vamp: Why don't you go....ahhhhhh (insect rips out vamps tongue)

insect: pssh more talky meat.

Wes: You can't kill him...not that way, he's already dead..he's a vampire.

insect: hmmmmm vampire....like the one with the angry steel?

Wes: Angry steel?

insect: The one who that hurt me in the tunnels back there.

Wes: Angel.

insect: Angel?

Wes: That's his name, the one who attacked you.

insect: You creatures throw your names all over all the time that's why you're so weak...to many all knowing your names..takes your power away.

Wes: It doesn't work that way here with us......So...that's the word isn't it. The word she gives care about.

insect: shut

Wes: It's her name.

insect: shut shut shut....shut shut shut!!

Wes: She has a name and it has power over her that's why she keeps it a secret.

insect: la la la la la I'm not listening.

Wes: And somehow her true name prevents her from choosing a false one...so one of us had to do it.

insect: What it matters eh? eh, talky meat. (I'm sure this is a Canadian insect dimension) I don't keep the name...High Priest keep the name....and you about to go dead and about to be a smear on my flesh spell. I just a messenger from the ones who love truly.

Angel: Well then...I guess it's time to shoot the messenger...or you know, chop the messenger into little bitty pieces...whatever.

So, why the hell did Jasmine vacate her comfortable hell to make a new one......bored? She seems to make everyone a part of a whole.....makes them part of the "body Jasmine"...so why come to this dimension? That's a long way to go for take out. What I notice most is the distress those abandoned feel now that Jasmine has found greener grass....or is that just more fleshy meat?

[> Thanks for transcribing that scene, it was an interesting read. -- Ray, 04:06:30 04/24/03 Thu

I wonder if Jasmine already gave away why she's here: "Untold power emanating from all corners." Maybe Earth is some mystic nexus. Like a hellmouth on a cosmic level.

[> Re: "Wait your turn talky" spoilers for Sacrifice -- ponygirl, 08:58:11 04/24/03 Thu

I loved your asides, Rufus!

I wonder why names have such power. Is it because naming something defines it? Gives it a set boundary and rules. Love becomes sacrifice, people are either good or bad, human or monsters. There's also room for confusion. A vulcanologist becomes a Vulcan. Names can hurt as Lorne points out. In Hush there was the idea of words cutting us off from true communication, here I wonder if names are identity, cutting people off from the connection and loss of self they experience with Jasmine.

[> Why Us (spoilers Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 09:45:09 04/24/03 Thu

Why isn't god satisfied with the Choir of Angels? It is MAN that is made in the image of God, not the angels. They have no free will. They aren't much of anything other than the mouth pieces and hands of God. It is MAN that is closest to God.

Jasmine is not able to make Connor happy, without his consent. Jasmine hasn't been able to do one thing to Cordy without obtaining her consent first. That was Skip's job, get Cordy's consent (even if it wasn't fully informed). "What do I have to do?" "Just say yes."

Jasmine's other subjects think that power is in a name (very ancient belief that is important to the Enuma Elish and Genesis. Man has dominion over creation by naming things). Darla tells Connor that power is in choice. I would be willing to bet that Jasmine's other subjects didn't have choices. That is a human thing. Buffy has said that vampires don't have free will and Angel is willing to dismiss what he did as Angelus as being beyond his control. Demons that have choice, like Lorne, Jasmine has power over. Others, like Vampires, she doesn't and she wants killed.

This could get very interesting. What is Jasmine really after? Are we more than cattle, but rather she is feeding on real power, our power, something her other subjects didn't have.

An image came to my mind. Skip said that Cordy was crammed with Jasmine. What if our power exists in every fiber of us? It isn't our flesh she is eating, but something else? Insect guy talked about flesh magic. What is our power of choice exists in our flesh? Blood is life and is awfully important in the Buffyverse. Where does choice reside in the Buffyverse? Where does love?

I find it interesting that the kid was named after the evangelist who is symbolized by the human, not the lion, or the bull or the eagle. Not the king of the beast or the domesticated animals or the air. Man. It is MAN that Jasmine is interested in. Why? What do we have that is so special?

[> [> Fascinating points! Thanks! -- MaeveRigan, 11:51:25 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> Top ten things humans have that Jasmine wants. -- RichardX1, 06:56:19 04/25/03 Fri

>>It is MAN that Jasmine is interested in. Why? What do we have that is so special?<<

Tonight's Top Ten list: Things we have that make us special enough for Jasmine to want to come to Earth:

10. Doughnuts!
9. The Clapper.
8. The Robotech saga.
7. All her favorite cartoon/toys from the 80s, now back in new, edgier versions!
6. Yo' momma.
5. Starbucks, though if she'd just waited another few days she would've had one in her own dimension.
4. Top Ten lists.
3. Pizza delivered in 30 minutes, or it's free!
2. People who actually liked the Macarena for two seconds or longer.

And the Number One thing that makes us special enough for Jasmine to come to Earth:

1. Not one, not two, but SEVEN HBO channels!!!

[> I don't think she was in the praying mantis dimension -- Masq, 11:55:52 04/24/03 Thu

The praying mantis demons worship her, but she chose not to visit their quaint little dimension. That's why praying mantis boy is upset. They worship her for millenia, she doesn't come to visit their temples. She goes to the Earthly plane instead and honors the furry mice with her presence.

Jasmine is from a place that is beyond Earthly or demon dimensions. She is from a reality so alien, she herself is so alien, that she required a human "vessel" to embody her before she could even enter our world on her own (outside of Cordelia's body).

From the looks of the praying mantis dimension (where Angel ended up), I think I'd prefer a more touristy place like Earth myself.

[> [> Question about dimensions (OT) -- sloan, 13:59:28 04/24/03 Thu

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed or if it's been specifically mentioned on either show, but how are dimensions created? Besides "The Wish" is there any explanation for why there are so many?

We know that you can travel between dimensions, can you create or destroy them though? Above, Ray mentioned that maybe Earth is some kind of mystical nexus. That reminded me of my own personal theory that in the Buffyverse, Earth's dimension is the original one and all the rest branch off. And it's the exercise of free will/choices that causes the splinters (other dimensions). Of course this is just an unsupportable theory *grin* but it's what I like to think until someone else tells me differently.

Do we know if there are dimensions older than Earth's? Newer? Maybe there could be some discussion about the dimensions we've seen/heard about on the shows, any sort of dimensional rules that I've obviously forgotten.

(Sorry if this sort of discussion is already in an archive)

[> [> [> The Wish was not an alternative dimension -- Masq, 14:20:09 04/24/03 Thu

It was an alternative history. Think of it this way: imagine every dimension in the Buffyverse is a video tape. Earth is one video tape, Quortoth is a different video tape, Pylea is a third video tape, etc.

The Scoobies live out their lives on one video tape, the Earth video tape. When someone passes from one dimension to another, they jump from one video tape to another.

In "The Wish" what happened was that the Earth video tape was erased and over-written with new events. At the end of the episode, Giles' actions allowed the original events that used to be on the Earth video tape to be restored.

So where did all the different dimensions come from? One gets the impression from the way Jasmine talked in "SHP" that there used to be only one dimension, Earth. When the demons, PTB's, etc., "left this reality" they might have magically created new places to go to, the demon dimensions.

[> [> [> [> Sure it was. -- Darby, 19:53:35 04/24/03 Thu

If the tape analogy held up, there'd be no image to access in Dopplegangland. The Wishverse is classic sci-fi alternate dimension based upon one event happening differently - what Anyanka did was pick up Cordelia and slip her onto the other universe. Then that choice gets negated by the destruction of the amulet, but the alternate Wishverse, now its own alternate universe due to alternaCordy's arrival, exists to later supply VampWillow.

So how many universes does that make it? 1: Regular Buffyverse with Cordy Wish. 2: Regular Buffyverse with Cordy wish but no amulet. 3: Slayerless Sunnydale with no alterna-Cordy (and no Buffy visit). 4: Slayerless Sunnydale with alterna-Cordy and events as we saw them. 5: VampWillow just dusts, no epithet. 6: VampWillow takes side-trip, returns, and dusts with epithet. Did I miss any?

[> [> [> [> [> If Joss was the Great Bird... -- pr10n, 22:20:21 04/24/03 Thu

[I am hypnotized by this possibility, suggested above by cjl]

We'd see another dimension where Andrew had a strange Van Dyke beard and Xander's windows allowed him to observe and indeed kill his enemies from afar.

[> [> [> [> [> [> ...then this would all be speckle-ation? -- anom, 00:10:07 04/25/03 Fri

pr10n, which post are you referring to? I'm trying to keep up, I really am, but I think I missed that one, & it sounds good (of course, it's one of cjl's!). Which thread is it in?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just one up, in the "naming" thread -- pr10n, 09:24:14 04/25/03 Fri

Search "new blood" and you'll be there.

cjl just tosses off the idea, "Fire Berman. Give Joss the franchise." OMG.

[> [> [> [> [> Universes vs. dimensions -- RichardX1, 07:12:00 04/25/03 Fri

In the Slayerverse, there seems to be a difference between the concept of alternate universes and that of other dimensions.

Alternate universes are kind of like "what ifs" in relation to one another. You decide whether to have the Hot Cakes platter or the Egg McMuffin; two separate universes form in which you made a different choice in each one (maybe more: you could always decide to have neither).

Other dimensions, however, still seem to be part of the same universe. They're just "beside" our own dimension, so to speak. Pylea is another dimension. Quortoth is almost certainly another dimension, as it is so entirely unlike our own.

I wish I could extrapolate on the differences (mainly so I could be quoted ^_^), but that's all I got.

[> [> [> [> [> The "Dopplegangland" spell talked about temporal folds -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:45:22 04/25/03 Fri

Temporal meaning time. Thus the spell involved altering or "folding" time in some way, which doesn't fit much into dimensions in such. If you fold time, you can theoretically create alternate timelines. The spell's "teensy temporal fold" was designed to recreate the Wishverse for a split second or so in order to get to the amulet.

At least, that's one theory. Another one is that the Wishverse (from Cordelia's entrance into it to Anya's amulet breaking) all existed during a single moment of time when Cordelia made the wish. So the spell folded back time to that one moment when the Wishverse did exist.

[> [> [> [> The insect said he came from an older world than Earth. -- oboemaboe, 23:21:04 04/24/03 Thu

[> [> Re: I don't think she was in the praying mantis dimension -- Rufus, 19:59:27 04/24/03 Thu

The way the insect guy spoke about being part of a whole etc. made me think that she had indeed been to that older world, then abandoning it for less crunchy meat.

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