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Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William
-- luvthistle1, 06:24:41 08/22/02 Thu

Who is actually in love with Buffy? If the demon takes the body and not the soul, doesn't that mean the demon "Spike", that is the one in love with Buffy? Now that Spike has "William soul back, will he still be in love with Buffy, ?who loves Buffy - the 'William' part, or the 'demon' part.?

[>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Caesar Augustus, 06:37:34 08/22/02 Thu

Clearly the demon part is what has loved Buffy so far, since William's soul was AWOL. But William w/ soul was an incurable romantic - I can't see him not falling straight in love with Buffy too.

[> [>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Brian, 06:45:43 08/22/02 Thu

But wouldn't it be ironic if "William" decides that he is unworthy of her, and Buffy spends the whole season trying to win his affections?

[> [>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Rufus, 20:51:34 08/22/02 Thu

Sorry Ceasar...the vampire is the result of an infection. The demon part of him is more of a supplement....the person/personality in love with Buffy is the person who once was and that is William.

[>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Thomas the Skeptic, 09:48:18 08/22/02 Thu

I've always thought that the part of Spike that fell in love with Buffy was the echo or shadow of William that was left behind after his soul departed so I suspect that William will soon become as enamoured of Buffy as the William-like parts of Spike already are.

[>Shouldn't it be *what* actually is in love with the slayer? -- leslie, 11:21:51 08/22/02 Thu

I think the answer to this question depends on what part of a person falls in love. Is it the soul? Is the heart? Is it the personality? Are these different "parts"? ("Tell me where is fancy bred/ In the heart or in the head?") This seems in turn to depend on whether you think that Spike was actually in love with Buffy or, as she insisted, he was feeling something that he thought was love but couldn't be because he was soulless. If you have to have a human soul to love, then Spike wasn't in love with her at all, so the point is moot. If it is the heart (beating or not) that loves, then Spike and William are indistinguishable for amatory purposes. If it is the personality, then it depends on whether you think that "Spike" is the result of an evolution of "William's" personality under the influence of vampiric experience, or that "Spike" and "William" are completely different personalities that have inhabited the same body at different points in time. In the latter case, there's no reason that "William" would be in love with Buffy just because "Spike" was; if the former, the argument that Spike's love for Buffy is actually the result of the remnants of William within him is supportable.

[>Who says it has to be either/or? -- HonorH, 12:25:23 08/22/02 Thu

The composite being Spike--demon and residual human personality--fell in love with Buffy. Obviously, we don't know what the addition of a soul to the mix will do, but it seems to me that as Spike isn't losing his demon or human aspects, he'll still be in love with her to some degree.

[>i like the question! -- anom, 14:21:51 08/23/02 Fri

Not sure I have an answer...but it does occur to me that William was in love with Cecily, or at least smitten with her. If they were, um, soulmates after all, maybe the return of Spike w/William's soul will lead to an answer to all the Cecily/Halfrek speculation we saw on the board after Older & Far Away. Will the resouled Spike be torn btwn. her & Buffy?

(Note: I'm just playing off the word "soulmates"--don't really think they were. The was no indication Cecily returned William's feelings; quite the opposite. But his own feelings for her may return along w/his soul, w/ME knows what consequences.)

[> [>Re: i like the question! -- genivive, 07:33:56 08/24/02 Sat

Why didn't Spike go after Cecily after he became a vampire? She should have been his first target. When he realizes Halfric is Cecily, maybe we will get the answer to that.

[> [> [>Cecily or Halfrek -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:56:05 08/24/02 Sat

Or maybe Cecily and Halfrek aren't the same person, they're just played by the same actor.

If ME does go that route, however, it's possible the Cecily was a vengeance demon the entire time Spike knew her.

[> [> [> [>Re: Cecily or Halfrek - Thats been answered already (sort of a spoiler I guess) -- Dochawk, 16:54:59 08/24/02 Sat

Marti in an interview admitted that Halfrek was Cecily. It wasn't planned that way, but it was too obvious not to be. Thats why the Halfrek has the line "William" in AYW. Doesn't mean that Spike recognizes her.


TL - Was Willow a "proto Black Willow" when she sought revenge on Glory (end of S6 spoilers)
-- Rohar, 11:05:56 08/22/02 Thu

Heya folks

I've lurked on this Forum a while, but this is my first post and I don't check in all the time here so this may have been covered already. But here goes anyway ... after watching the last three episodes of S6, and looking back at TL in season 5, does anyone else feel that the Willow we saw in that episode was a kind of "proto Black Willow" like I do? Ok ... it was only one book she used of Dark Magic, she didn't absorb the knowledge of the books and there were few of the physical changes (her eyes did go black though). True, Glory wasn't human and extremely evil and the Scooby gang had every reason to seek her final demise. But Tara was the victim of an attack, as she was in the events that lead to Willow turning into Black Willow and she suffered a fate not much better than death. And also, Willow wasn't listening to Buffy's reason after she saw that Glory had brain sucked Willow .... very much like Black Willow at the end of S6 .... and just very possibly there may have been flashes of "proto Black Willow" in season 4 in WAH and SB ...... Comments/Opinions Anyone ?

Rohar

[>There's a heated discussion about this topic in the archives... -- cjl, 12:34:08 08/22/02 Thu

Bascially, one group on the board was scratching their heads, wondering where the heck Darth Rosenberg/DarkWillow came from, and the other group was pointing to episodes like Tough Love, and even episodes as far back as S1(!) to show that Willow had the darkness in her all along. To which the first group responded, "yeah, but how did we get from sabotaging Cordelia's computer homework and shooting pencils through tree trunks to FLAYING PEOPLE ALIVE?!"

The second group took up the challenge, and..

Let's just say it went on for awhile.

[> [>Re: There's a heated discussion about this topic in the archives... -- Rohar, 12:53:02 08/22/02 Thu

Ok, thanks ....... if someone could find that discussion if it's still around and point me too it, I'd be very grateful to see what has already gone before :)

Rohar

[> [> [>Also try the thread which begins -- Sophist, 13:49:58 08/22/02 Thu

here.

[> [>It starts with Darby's post, "Dark Willow and the Story" in the July 2002 archive -- cjl, 13:04:54 08/22/02 Thu


[>Isn't Giles in Passion a better analogy? -- Sophist, 12:34:29 08/22/02 Thu

Or even Buffy in Sanctuary?

[> [>Or Graduation Day? -- Sophist, 12:44:28 08/22/02 Thu


[>I think it very much was. -- HonorH, 12:34:42 08/22/02 Thu

Welcome!

Yes, I do think TL was foreshadowing what happened at the end of S6. I also think there was another foreshadowing much earlier: "Wild at Heart," when Willow made an abortive attempt at cursing Oz and Veruca. It hopped up by degrees. First, in response to her lover's infidelity, she attempted a curse she ultimately was unable to follow through. Then, because of a horrific attack on her lover, she delved into black magicks to seek revenge. And did it strike anyone else that if Glory had been merely a human sorceress, that might not necessarily have stopped Willow? Finally, in response to her lover's brutal death, Willow went completely over the the Dark Side. So unlike some, I didn't see Willow's transformation into Darth Rosenberg as a sudden thing. We got hints long ago that this was a possibility.

[> [>The problem is... -- Darby, 13:19:27 08/22/02 Thu

...or was, in the earlier discussion, not that Dark Willow wasn't foreshadowed, but that the Dark Willow we were shown was not consistent with the dark sides of Willow we had been shown previously. Specifically, I didn't see Willow, under any circumstances, as being capable of taunting Dawn so cruelly, or idly offing Rack (we weren't even shown the circumstances of that), or of toying painfully with Warren before ripping his skin off, or consciously tossing out spells that quite reasonably would, even should, have killed her friends. Drunk with power, trying to eradicate pain, showing blunt superiority, those were all parts of Willow that regular viewers knew were there, but it was the casual cruelty and lack of concern for the other Scoobies that I have trouble reconciling with Willow, and I don't want to go in the direction of some sort of possession (which negates VampWillow as a real indicator of her Darkness) that might absolve Willow of responsibility for her actions.

- Darby, willing to rehash things in the Dog Days.

[> [> [>My solution: -- HonorH, 13:51:12 08/22/02 Thu

You'll notice that the first thing Willow does with her magic is save Buffy's life. She continues to be herself for a time, and slowly slides downward. My thought is that the magic brought out the worst in her, and the longer she had it in her, the worse it got. By the time she caught up with Warren, the urge to kill him had been amplified several times. Then, once that barrier (of actually killing someone) had been broken, other barriers started falling, and her rage took over to the point that she was willing to harm her friends to get at her targets.

When she went to see Rack, I don't think she was planning to kill him. Take his magic, yes, but then leave him alive, the way she did Giles. But upon taking that amount of black magic in, she buried her soul completely and casually killed him. It was after that that she started personally attacking her friends. You'll also note that at that point, she started referring to "Willow" in the third person.

On the matter of possession, I'd say it goes in degrees. Willow is responsible for her own murderous urges. She's responsible for taking in the black magics knowing that they'd change her, and not for the better. All the specifics after her second dose--Rack's--though, IMHO were done by something like VampWillow--a creature with effectively no soul. It took Giles' good magic to make her humanity resurface.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion. We'll have to wait until the next season for more definitive answers.

[> [> [> [>That'll work. -- Darby, 15:18:15 08/22/02 Thu

I see that as a viable explanation, but I find it unsatisfying. We've been led for a few years to see things less in black-and-white, and to see the "evil things" as being part of a continuum. What's fun about the show is that the Bads, Big and usually Little, have personalities and quirks that make them likeable on some levels. Well, Willow had an established personality that could have made her a truly terrifying Bid Bad, with her positive and negative traits in evidence (think about similar treatment for the Mayor or even Glory), but eventually she's so EVIL that it's not even Willow anymore. And if the BB isn't really Willow, what was the point? More "magic is drugs, and drugs is bad" garbage? How does that resonate with the repercussions and the rehabilitation? No, they hedged their bets, played it safe with a beloved character, which is exactly the opposite of what they used to rationalize Tara's death.

Personally, I think that they could have given us a season finale that avoided the classic lesbian sex - leads - to -death - and - insanity cliche, they could have dealt with Tara (even killed her) in a way that led to Dark Willow, and could have given us a plot with Willow, our Willow, teetering on the precipice of truly losing herself to the Darkness, even let her deal with Warren in some irreversible way, that really had us on the edge of our seats. When Willow dealt with Dawn at Rack's, I really feared for Dawn, but by that time Willow as I knew her was gone and no longer at risk, no matter how much the characters kept insisting otherwise. And much of the finale was the magical equivalent of a blockbuster movie chase + climactic fight, not all that original.

Mostly it's that I hold ME to a very high standard of sophistication and characterization, and although they produced a good season-ender I don't think it rose to the levels of some of their best work. And here on the board, I get to be unrealistic and expect them to be at their best with every script. It's not fair, really, but that's still the way I feel.

- Darby, that worst type of critic, the frustrated writer. But at least I'm not a clever sheep.*

* From one of Monty Python's very best skits.

"Mraaaaaa! THUMP!"

[> [> [> [> [>Willow at risk? -- Robert, 15:35:30 08/22/02 Thu

>>> "... but by that time Willow as I knew her was gone and no longer at risk ..."

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean when you say that Willow was no longer at risk?

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Willow at risk? -- Darby, 16:01:11 08/22/02 Thu

The unique situation that regular characters are in is that we get a feel for their personalities and an idea of what sort of action would send them "over the edge" in a way that would be difficult if not impossible to come back from. For Buffy it's killing humans, something she is fully capable of doing (and has done, for all intents and purposes, on at least three occasions). For Xander, an example would be betraying Anya - it was in character, and we're not sure if they will ever recover from it. For Spike, it was being shown that he really couldn't be trusted by his beloved Buffy. But what Dark Willow did was too extreme, treading on traits that I don't think Willow was ever shown to have - she is vindictive but not cruel, headstrong but not one to consciously risk her friends' lives - so what she did wasn't really something Willow was doing, she was some "other" and our guilty, inferior-feeling Willow was not being risked in the same way.

- Darby, who's not sure he's really explained it well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Buffy killing humans? -- Robert, 22:27:28 08/22/02 Thu

>>> "... so what she did wasn't really something Willow was doing, she was some "other" and our guilty, inferior-feeling Willow was not being risked in the same way."

Okay, I think I understand now, though I may not agree with your conclusion.

>>> "For Buffy it's killing humans, something she is fully capable of doing (and has done, for all intents and purposes, on at least three occasions)."

Please list these occasions. I've reviewed all 120 some odd episodes in my mind and I can't recall Buffy killing any humans. Thanks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Buffy killing humans? -- Off-kilter, 05:02:27 08/23/02 Fri

I'm blanking a bit, but in Spiral she is implicated in the killing of the Knights that say Key. At least the boss man says that several of his men were dead.She wasn't really upset about attempting to kill Faith if that's what it took to heal Angel. The others?
[shrug]
Someone else will have to point them out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Ted...because she considered him human at the time? -- aliera, 05:25:25 08/23/02 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 11:46:01 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Ted...because she considered him human at the time?"

1. Ted was not human.
2. Ted was not dead -- he was merely playing dead.
3. Buffy did not set out to kill him. She was responding to the assault and battery committed against her by Ted. They were trading blows and he started the fight.
4. Buffy was not yet even 17 years old and was being threatened with death or injury by an adult who was not her parent.
5. Ted was a cold-blooded murderer.

Just how does this qualify as an example of Buffy killing a human? Nevertheless, Buffy accepted full responsibility for her actions (as she also did later in "Dead Things") as long as she thought that she had killed a human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 12:39:28 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy was slapped by Ted. She was not frightened of him or threatened. She smirked in a self-satisfied way and proceeded to beat the crap out of him and release the anger that she had previously been taking out on vamps. Giles was concerned by Buffy's violent tendences and her choosing to beat the vampires to "a bloody pulp". As far as Buffy was aware she had killed a human. She was given a lucky escape clause when he turned out to be a evil robat. If Faith had been given a similiar cop-out in Bad Girls would that have made her actions right? Buffy was not aware Ted was a murderer at the time.
I agree she did express remorse, unlike Faith. But I still see Ted as an example of her believing she had killed a human and later dismissing it. Faith felt evil and wrong and believed everyone considered Buffy perfect. Yet Buffy made to attempt to emhasise with Faith by mentioning her own experience in believing she had taken a human life. Ineed in Sanctury she coldly tells Angel she can't be in his club with Faith because she has never killed anyone before.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:02:06 08/23/02 Fri

It is debateable, however, whether or not a human Ted would have died in the fall. Since the robot intentionally shut off his circuits, we don't know whether it would have been fatal.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 15:01:04 08/23/02 Fri

Miss Edith, you give Ted too much leeway.

Ted encroached upon Buffy's personal space. He was in her bedroom without her permission. Do you want me in your bedroom without permission? Ted proceded to physically assault her. Thus, we have an strange adult man slapping a 16 year old girl in her own bedroom. Ted had no way of knowing that Buffy was anything other than a 16 year old minor girl. Do you want strange adult men slapping your daughters around?

He then proceded to trade blows with Buffy. Given that he was absorbing Buffy's blows, she had to know at that point that something was very wrong about Ted. Note also that when Ted faked his own death, he did it as a result of falling down the staircase, not as a result of one of Buffy's blows.

>>> "As far as Buffy was aware she had killed a human."

Yes, and given her extreme remorse and the arguments I gave above, I believe that Buffy had no intention of killing Ted.

Extracted from "Sanctuary":
> ANGEL
> I know Faith did some bad things to you--

> BUFFY
> You can't possibly know.

> ANGEL
> And you can't possibly know what she's going through.

> BUFFY
> But of course you do. I'm sorry I can't be in the club,
> but I've never murdered anybody.

And Buffy was telling the truth both literally and in spirit. Yes, she momentarily thought that she had accidentally murdered Ted, but she also accepted the consequences and she had not intended to murder him. Faith never accepted consequences for her actions, and she did commit willful deliberate murder on an innocent.

>>> "Ineed(sic) in Sanctury she coldly tells Angel she ..."

Buffy saying this to Angel was a hurtful verbal attack, but it was not untrue. Angel was man enough to bear it, knowing the extreme pain that Buffy was going through at the time. However, I do not believe that Buffy said anything coldly in this scene. She was extrememly hot with emotion. The emotion was fired by the victimization she suffered at Faith's hands.

Another extract from "Santuary":
> ANGEL
> She wants to change. She has a chance to--

> BUFFY
> No! No chance. Jail.

Even with all her pain, Buffy still did not want to kill Faith, but she did want justice.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 17:09:32 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy didn't want to kill Faith? She did threaten to beat Faith to death when she tried to apologise although fair enough I doubt she meant it.
I am probably coming across as a bit of a Buffy hater which isn't really true. I do love Buffy but the episode Ted always came across as a bit of a cop-out to me. Buffy had momentarily lost control and done something really serious but its okay because he was a robat so forget the consequences.
I agree Ted was out of line. I was just making the point that a lot of the attack was based on Buffy's own issues and aggression. When slapped she does say "I was so hoping you'd do that" so she was spoiling for a fight, rather than genuinely intimidated.
And yes he had a good right hock but I don't think there was any evidence at the time that he was supernatural. Bufffy says to her friends that he was human and she shouldn't have hit him so I didn't see any evidence of her suspecting Ted of being non-human. Basically as far as she was aware she had killed a human and she dealt with the consequences of that. But after realising he was a robat she never mentioned the feelings she had at the time again and I do think she could have used the experience to emphasise with Faith. JMO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 18:08:03 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Buffy didn't want to kill Faith? She did threaten to beat Faith to death when she tried to apologise although fair enough I doubt she meant it."

Let us look at a dialogue excerpt from the shooting script for "Sanctuary".

> ANGEL
> She wants to change. She has a chance to--

> BUFFY
> No! No chance. Jail.

> ANGEL
> You think that'll help?

> FAITH
> Buffy.

> FAITH
> I'm sor--

> BUFFY
> (cold, calm)
> If you apologize to me I will beat you to death.

Thus, Buffy never said that she wanted to kill Faith. This was not a threat, rather it was an ultimatum. Regardless, I agree with you that I doubt Buffy would have carried through with the ultimatum. She was obviously very upset and angry at Faith, with good reason. She was also out of line, and Angel let her know it. But this does not mean that she ever wanted to murder Faith. However, she did want justice.

>>> "... so she was spoiling for a fight, rather than genuinely intimidated."

I agree! I doubt she was intimidated either, but Ted still initiated combat. What should Buffy have done in response? Said, "thank you sir, may I have another?" Merely because Buffy fought back willingly, maybe even happily, does not mean that she went into the fight with intent to commit murder. The fact that Ted successfully faked being dead is not evidence that Buffy would have killed a normal human.

>>> "Bufffy says to her friends that he was human and she shouldn't have hit him so I didn't see any evidence of her suspecting Ted of being non-human."

I agree, though I believe that if she had been on the ball, she would have known that something was funny about Ted at this point. On the other hand, she was rightfully upset of the whole episode and probably wasn't thinking clearly.

>>> "But after realising he was a robat(sic) she never mentioned the feelings she had at the time again and I do think she could have used the experience to emphasise(sic) with Faith."

Not everything that happens in the show necessarily gets mentioned again. Though for the continuity fiends (like me), it is always gratifying when they are.

I am assuming the word you meant was empathize, otherwise I don't understand what you meant to say here. I argue that Buffy did empathize with Faith to a point. Buffy often counseled Faith to come to terms with her accidental killing of Deputy Mayor Allan Finch. Buffy became less empathetic after Faith's treachery and betrayal were brought to light. By the time of "Sanctuary", the level of betrayal had gotten to the point where reconciliation was very difficult.

Maybe we will see a true reconciliation between Buffy and Faith in season seven.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 18:38:21 08/23/02 Fri

But she thought she had killed a normal human. She knew when beating Ted that there was a possibility things could go badly. She didn't want to stop reasnably and calm down. Just like Faith she was out of control and spoiling for a fight. She went with her slayer instincts and as far as she knew things had ended badly with the death of a human. Ted did turn out to be a robat in the end but I don't feel that changes Buffy's prior behaviour and the fact that it could have been a human that she killed. Faith is evidence of the slippery slop. Buffy had the slayer instincts but thanks to her upbringing she knew the difference betwenn right and wrong and did feel guilty for taking a human life (as far as she was aware).
Sorry I did mean empathise. Couldn't think how to spell the word and had a mental blank. Anyway I felt Buffy appeared helpful on the surface. In Consequences she was saying that she wnated to help Faith etc. But she was coming across as the good slayer counseling the bad slayer. She did not say "hey I've been there to. I thought I killed a human, we've both been a little crazy lately" etc. I am probably being to hard on her mind you. I just never felt she was that helpful towards Faith and I could understand Faith's defensive reaction in Consequences.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 00:07:03 08/24/02 Sat

>>> "She didn't want to stop reasnably and calm down."

What should she have done? Because Ted had drugged Buffy's friends and family, she wasn't getting the support she needed for dealing with the situation. She may not have known at the time that Ted was spiking the cookies, but she knew something was wrong. In addition, Ted was behaving very aggressively toward Buffy. Next he comes into her bedroom and reads her diary. He is thus invading her personal privacy. In addition, he is threatening to expose her and ship her off to a mental institution. Finally, he smacks her.

For all that she is the slayer, Buffy was still 16 years old. With her friends and family drugged so that they couldn't see Ted for what he was, Buffy was again alone. Ted is threatening her existence and assaulting her in her bedroom. What is the reasonable course of action? Complain to her mother? Joyce was drugged such that she didn't see the real Ted. Call the police? Given the quality of the Sunnydale police, I'm sure they would be no help at all. Call Giles? That might have been the wise course, and with a little more maturity, I feel confident that she would have made that decision. On the other hand, since Ted was after all a homicidal robot, then it would eventually have fallen on Buffy to destroy it anyway.

If the adult thing to do is to stop and back off, then why didn't Ted do that? He was the adult, not Buffy. There is a power relationship between mature adults and teenagers. This is why we have statutory rape laws on the books. We do not assume that the teenager can accept the role of mature responsible adult. Besides, if it had been any other 16-year old girl than Buffy, killing Ted at this point would have been justifiable homicide.

My conclusion here is that Buffy is not fundamentally a killer as some have suggested. While I do not have any trouble accepting her course of action with Ted, if others do, then I believe that they are showing a lack of compassion for people who are caught in difficult or impossible positions, especially immature children.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>All of those. -- Darby, 06:11:47 08/23/02 Fri

What she did to Ted and Faith should have killed them if they were human - a good attempted murder is just a murder where something goes wrong. And although the "this is war" rationale isn't something she accepts, it seems to have done the trick for the Knights she offed.

- Darby, starting to realize that in the Buffyverse actions only have the consequences that can be wedged into a 42-minute episode and advance the plot.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>What about... -- KdS, 06:38:25 08/23/02 Fri

Billy Fordham?

Coldbloodedly left him unconscious in a bomb shelter with a bunch of pissed-off vampires. Interesting that that's never been openly addressed, but when Angel does the same thing to a much nastier bunch of people we need a whole arc to sort out the consequences...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>"Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- HonorH, 07:41:23 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy didn't "coldbloodedly" turn her back on Billy. She had no allies down there, just herself, a bunch of vampires, and the half-baked GeekGoths. She was busy getting the other GeekGoths out, holding a stake to Dru's chest to keep Spike in check. If Billy had been ambulatory, she'd have waited for him to get up and get out, too. As it was, she saved as many as she could. Billy made his own choices, which are what led to him being down there in the first place, and it was next to impossible for Buffy to save him from them.

And it is addressed, I think, though indirectly. The whole episode was the first to show the true complexity of the Buffyverse. The villain of the piece was an old friend desperate not to die; the man Buffy loved revealed a hideous crime he'd committed, the results of which were walking around Sunnydale killing people and talking nonsense; and Buffy had to leave Billy behind when there was a chance she could've saved him, but it's not clear what that chance was. All of that leads to her asking Giles to, "Lie to me."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: "Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:23:57 08/23/02 Fri

Plus, Billy chose to be down there and get turned. The others changed their minds when they actually saw the vampires, but Billy didn't. Getting him out would have to have been done forcefully or with a lot of persusasion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: "Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- Robert, 11:53:35 08/23/02 Fri

>>> " Getting him out would have to have been done forcefully or with a lot of persusasion."

and Buffy was using both in bucket fulls, but was still unsuccessful. I personally cannot understand the mentality of believing Buffy guilty of murder, merely because she was unsuccessful in rescuing an individual who sincerely did not want to be rescued.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Billy Fordham ... what about him? -- Robert, 11:35:05 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Coldbloodedly left him unconscious in a bomb shelter with a bunch of pissed-off vampires."

You conclusion is outrageous and excessive.

First, Buffy spent the last half of the episode attempting to talk Fordham out of dealing with the vampires. Second, Billy was attempting to sacrifice Buffy and his innocent friends to the vampires as food. Third, Billy tricked Buffy into the shelter and trapped her there. Fourth, the vampires were "pissed-off" only because Buffy and the innocents escaped. Fifth, Buffy's actions were not "cold-blooded", they were desparate.

Buffy every right to defend her life, and those of innocents, against murder by another. Buffy gave Billy every chance to end his selfish actions and to save himself and the innocents. Because, to the bitter end, he refused to back down, he ended up being the only victim available to the vampires.

As a final piece of poetic justice, Spike gave Billy exactly what he wanted, to be turned into a vampire. The fact the Buffy staked him subsequently is (by definition of the show) not murder -- it was her duty and responsibility. Who really is to blame for Billy's ultimate demise (Billy, Spike, Billy's cult friends, or Buffy)? To blame Buffy is analogous to blaming an unsuccessful rescuer of an accident victim. Buffy did not need to go to that shelter in the first place. If she hadn't, all the innocents would have been eaten, but then no one would be accusing Buffy of "coldbloodedly"(sic) leaving Billy to his fate.

>>> "... but when Angel does the same thing to a much nastier bunch of people we need a whole arc to sort out the consequences..."

Angel DID NOT DO the same thing. He set up the Wolfram & Hart lawyers and then taunted them as they were about to be slaughtered. Thus, he carried some of the guilt for their deaths. Buffy was in the act of saving innocent lives and would have saved Billy too, if he had given her half a chance. The fact that she was not 100% successful in her rescue attempt does not make her guilty of Billy's death. Going back inside the shelter would not have saved Billy, and it would have gotten her killed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Arethusa, 12:46:36 08/23/02 Fri

for the lawyers and others to die irregardless of Angel's actions. They had brought back a woman from her natural death, and must have used some very dark magic to do so. Not even Willow, the "baddest Wicca in the Western Hemisphere" could do that, and evidently they had a very big cosmic price to pay.

Something I've always wondered-why to people assume the spouses are innocent of any culpability? (I don't know if there were any waiters there for sure, so I'll skip that part of the argument.) Husbands and wives often eagerly support their spouses' illegal behavior to share in the wealth and power. Isn't it immoral to knowingly live off ill-gotten gains, even if someone else did the killing and stealing?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Robert, 15:10:23 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "They had brought back a woman from her natural death ..."

Well, actually it was an unnatural death. Darla originally died when she was turned into a vampire.

>>> "... the PTB intended for the lawyers and others to die irregardless of Angel's actions."

This may be true. It may be that nothing Angel could have done would make a difference. However, there is something to be said for staining one's soul, and Angel does have a soul to stain.

Regardless, the point I was making is that Angel's situation with the evil lawyers was fundamentally different from Buffy situation with Billy Fordham.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Dochawk, 15:59:15 08/23/02 Fri

Agreed.

What I have never understood is that though it would be an uneven fight, the lawyers knew how to fight vampires. There were many of them and most were not Linwood, but young. Even with Dru's psychic ability I would have guessed that they would have had a shot at winning, yet it seems that they didn't even try. We've seen regular humans be able to fight vamps before, certainly Xander does it and the W & H lawyers know much more than the average person.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Arethusa, 16:22:04 08/23/02 Fri

Darla did not die by mystical means. Her blood was drained, her heart stopped, and her soul left her body. Her (dead) body was supported by mystical means, but I think that's different. Her body was eventually staked, but it was already dead.

I'm not disagreeing with your point-just adding a couple thoughts. (I'm fighting the flu, or something. Not too coherent tody.) Angel was very wrong to do what he did, of course, and he did sin in letting the lawyers die without trying to help them. I agree that he had a choice, and Buffy really didn't.

Interesting point, Dochawk. We've seen Darla take out four people practically with one blow, but there were a lot of people in the wine cellar. Perhaps Drusilla did her hypnotic mojo?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Some clarification and responses -- KdS, 06:15:53 08/24/02 Sat

Firstly, I think that we have a problem with language meaning different things. When I use the word "coldblooded" I don't necessarily mean "evil". On balance I think her actions were defensible but not as defensible as you argue. Finn argues that it would have taken a lot of argument and persuasion to get Ford out of the cellar. Why? He was still unconscious. Buffy quite unambiguously told Ford that if the vampires got into the cellar she would kill him. After the fight she leaves him unconscious in the corner and if she had had any intention of saving him she could have ordered a couple of the goths to carry him out. Some of them seemed big enough that it wouldn't have slowed them down much.

When I said "coldblooded" what I meant was that at some stage Buffy decided that any way of saving Ford would incur risks to her and the innocent goths disproportionate to the value she placed on his life. You obviously believe that that decision was correct and I believe it was defensible. However I also believe that when Buffy made that choice she did consciously incur some responsibility for Ford's death.

After Willow, Xander and Angel arrive Buffy is fairly reticient about what actually happened in the cellar and talks about returning for "the body" in a manner that would have left them with the impression that Ford was definitely dead. I do think Giles may have suspected though, and that that suspicion underlaid their final discussion.

Regarding the comparison between Buffy's actions regarding Ford and Angel's regarding the Wolfram & Hart lawyers, I do accept that Angel's actions were quantitatively worse because he made no attempt to save anyone present and drew no distinction between the W & H personnel and their spouses/dates/servants. However, I don't see any justification for Robert's claim that Angel "set [them] up". Angel tried his best to kill Darla and Dru in the conservatory and had no involvement in their choice to massacre W & H. He was only faced with a decision when he arrived at the Manners house and made the wrong one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Putting the spouses/wait staff issue from Reunion to bed -- acesgirl, 12:15:41 08/24/02 Sat

I've been rewatching Angel season 2 episodes this summer and caught the following exchange between Angel & Kate in "The Thin Dead Line".

After Angel's initial interaction with the cop that won't die he goes to see Kate for some help because he is still on the outs with the gang.


********************************************
KATE: I haven't seen you in a while.

ANGEL: I've been busy.

KATE: Me too.
She goes to her filing cabinet, open it, files her manila folder. She pulls out two other folders, waves them at Angel.

KATE: Couple of cases I've been working. (re: the first folder) Two women killed in a clothing store. (re: the second folder) Thirteen lawyers from Wolfram and Hart slaughtered in a wine cellar.
***********************************************

That cleared it up for me, as regards who actually was killed in that wine cellar. As for Angel's cupability, well that's another matter entirely.

I hope this information proves helpful to everyone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>The Rationale -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:30:13 08/23/02 Fri

For the Knights of Byzantium, it wasn't the "this is war" rationale, it was the "self-defense" rationale. They attacked and she fought back.

As for Faith, she was a murderer who would have to be dealt with eventually. Can you imagine the Ascension with her in it? Plus, Buffy's use of handcuffs there shows she had changed her mind and was going to bring Faith to Angel alive. Only because Faith broke the handcuffs and continued to fight did Buffy stab her.

Ted, all right, I'll give you something in that one. Ted did slap her first, so a court might give her self-defense leeway, though, considering that she has Slayer strength, it wasn't a fair fight, so it does become morally grey. I'd place it at attempted manslaughter at worst, though.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Just George, 11:28:22 08/23/02 Fri

Ted did attack Buffy first, and he hit her very hard (slamming her back a couple of times). I always assumed that Buffy could subconsciously tell the difference when she attacked (hitting a robot vs. hitting a human). The fighting/slayer part of her brain therefore went all out in a way she wouldn't have against a normal human in the same situation. Buffy's been pretty good at moderating her attacks against humans every other time.

But in the end, I know itıs a rationalization I make because I like Buffy. It's not something based on any particular information in the show.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 12:05:35 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Ted, all right, I'll give you something in that one."

Finn Mac Cool, I must strenuously disagree with you here.

>>> "Ted did slap her first, so a court might give her self-defense leeway, though, considering that she has Slayer strength, it wasn't a fair fight, so it does become morally grey."

1. Yes, Buffy had slayer strength, but Ted had robot strength.
2. Buffy was a 16 year old minor child whose life or limb was threatened by an adult, not her parent or guardian.
3. Ted was in Buffy's bedroom. He was encroaching upon and attacking her personal space.
4. Ted and Buffy were trading blows. He could have ceased and retreated at any moment prior to and during the fight.
5. What in the hell does fighting fair have to do with protecting oneself from murder or injury.

>>> " I'd place it at attempted manslaughter at worst, though."

If so, then it would have been justifiable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Darby, 12:47:50 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy vs human is a lethal weapon. Ted, as far as Buffy knew, was human (she certainly thought so after "killing" him) and she used her power on him. It's no more justifiable than if she had pulled out a shotgun and blasted him with it. With Faith, at least it was ostensibly an even match (but she did intend to kill her, which is important too), and the Knights were armed, but Ted is justifiable only in retrospect.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:12:54 08/23/02 Fri

Just realized something:

If Ted were human, would the fight with Buffy have killed him? Ted was only pretending to be dead, so it is uncertain if a human in his position would actually have died. That would make it only assault, and, considering Ted slapped her first and continued the fight, she wouldn't even be held to blame for that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 15:27:09 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "If Ted were human, would the fight with Buffy have killed him?"

If Ted were a normal human, he would have gone down with the first blow. Consequently, Buffy should have known at this point that Ted wasn't human. The fact that she was shocked and remorseful after Ted faked his death suggests that Buffy never intended to kill Ted and thus was not landing killing blows.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 15:23:56 08/23/02 Fri

>>> " Ted, as far as Buffy knew, was human (she certainly thought so after "killing" him) and she used her power on him."

Buffy did not intend to kill Ted. If she did intend to kill Ted, then she would have known with the first blow that Ted was not a normal human.

>>> "It's no more justifiable than if she had pulled out a shotgun and blasted him with it. "

Your analogy doesn't hold up. If Buffy were a normal 16-year old teenage girl and a strange adult man came into her bedroom and proceded to attack her, then she would be fully justified in fearing for her life and killing him.

>>> "With Faith, at least it was ostensibly an even match (but she did intend to kill her, which is important too),..."

NO, SHE DID NOT. Buffy's first action was to lock Faith in handcuffs. If she went into Faith's apartment with murder on her mind, then why would she do that. Buffy wanted Faith alive for Angel to feed on. Whether that might have killed Faith is a different ethical issue. Even a half year later when Faith had committed yet more perfidious crimes against Buffy, Buffy still didn't want to kill Faith. In "Santuary", Buffy stated that she wanted Faith in jail.

>>> "... and the Knights were armed, ..."

You are FAR too lenient with the Knights of Byzantium. They were not only armed, they had stated their firm intention of murduring Buffy's family and anyone who got in their way, and they had the means to carry it out. Buffy and the gang were heavily outgunned and outmanned in their desparate flight from Glorificus and the Knights. Whether Buffy intended to kill anyone in this battle or not, she was clearly defending the lives of herself, family and friends. She was justifiable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>While a agree with you overall -- HonorH, 15:51:08 08/23/02 Fri

. . . on everything, actually, in this thread, I have to point to a few things that contradicts you on the Faith matter.

First, when Buffy announces her intention to get Faith for Angel, someone, Xander, I think, says that that means Angel will kill her. Buffy says, "He won't have to." Later, when Buffy tells Faith the blood of a Slayer is the cure for the poison, here's the conversation:

F: You know you'll never take me alive.

B: Not a problem.

So at that point, at least, Buffy was willing to kill Faith and take her body back for Angel to feed on. The handcuffs were to assure that Faith didn't escape. Furthermore, Buffy knew Angel wouldn't want to kill Faith, either. Having Faith already dead would make it easier for him--and that was what mattered.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While a agree with you overall -- Robert, 18:18:36 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "F: You know you'll never take me alive."
>>> "B: Not a problem."

Good point! On the other hand, this could mean that while Buffy did not fundamentally want to kill Faith, this was the price she was willing to pay in order to save Angel. The goes back to an argument I made earlier. Who has a greater right to life, the murderer or the innocent victim of the murderer? The only other way to save Angel was for Buffy to risk her own life. Why is she any less deserving to live than Faith? After all, it was Faith's criminal action that put Buffy and Angel into this situation in the first place.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- HonorH, 18:59:50 08/23/02 Fri

*On the other hand, this could mean that while Buffy did not fundamentally want to kill Faith, this was the price she was willing to pay in order to save Angel.*

On that, we agree. I don't think Buffy was especially wanting to kill Faith, but the confrontation had been coming for a long time. There's a great discussion in the archives about why Buffy went after Faith the way she did, and someone's terrific thesis was that the confrontation was inevitable at some point.

I won't get into that now, but there is also one final thing: ultimately, it was immaterial whether Buffy really was going to kill Faith herself or merely bring her back to Angel to drain. In either case, Faith was dead, and Buffy was either directly causing or facilitating her death. Doeasn't make a whole lot of difference in the final analysis.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- Robert, 00:26:25 08/24/02 Sat

>>> " In either case, Faith was dead, and Buffy was either directly causing or facilitating her death."

Except that we don't know that Faith's death was inevitable. Buffy survived the experience of curing Angel. Presumably Faith would also, though maybe Angel would show less restraint for Faith than for Buffy. On the other hand, Angel showed considerable restraint with Faith in the episode "Sanctuary".

Regardless, if Faith's death was inevitable, then whose fault and responsibility was it for that? Buffy was not the one who fired the crossbow bolt. Where does there personal responsibility here?

Faith was not some innocent rube, robbed of her organs in some dark alley. She was personnally responsible for Angel's suffering and impending demise. Buffy gave her the opportunity to do the right thing when Buffy snapped the handcuffs on her. Faith chose to fight to the death instead. The fact that no one died as a result was fortuitous. Nevertheless, Buffy was not the instigator for this sordid chain of events. She was merely trying to put the pieces back together in the best way she knew how.

>>> "Doeasn't make a whole lot of difference in the final analysis."

I think it makes a considerable difference. If Buffy was attempting to murder Faith out of spite, then she stains her soul. If she kills Faith in a battle of justice, then her soul remains pure. This is after all the gist of Buffy's argument in "Seeing Red" on why Willow couldn't be allowed to kill nerd troika. I believe that Buffy has never crossed this line, even with all the ethically ambiguous choices that she has been called upon to make.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- TRM, 15:46:53 08/24/02 Sat

I'm a little surprised at how polarized many seem to be taking this topic, with many stating that the only two views are Buffy as a cold-blooded methodical killer versus Buffy as the innocent forced by circumstance to act as she does.

The Knights aren't really debatable, and my conclusions break down like this: (1) Yes, Buffy would kill people if the circumstances forced her so (self defense, war, etc.) (2) Buffy was morally justified in killing these people. [Not by my moral standards, btw, which are amazingly ambiguous, but by some "standard" standard which I'm pulling from either my perception of society or the show itself, I'm not sure...]

Faith is a trickier issue. Here, I will focus specifically on Buffy's intent. Does Buffy intend to kill Faith (Graduation Day not Sanctuary where I view her threat as simply a threat)? She doesn't intend to kill Faith for the sake of killing her, but she does not mind if Faith dies as a result of her actions; murder is not an end but a means. I've always felt, however, that the episode was meant to cast light on Buffy's potential darker side, and I believe we are meant to question Buffy's progression towards a Faith-like character. Particularly as Faith smiles as she tells Buffy: "You did it" after Buffy stabs her, as a mentor to a protegé. Regardless, she's portrayed neither as cold-blooded and evil nor as an untarnishable hero. A stereotypical altruistic hero would have sacrificed herself from the very start and put no one but herself at risk (btw, I do not find protecting her life so that she might save more lives a fully convincing argument). Ultimately, Buffy was willing to make a tough decision -- one which most would consider understandable, if not justifiable, if not morally sound -- and sacrifice someone else for at least partially selfish reasons.

Ted always did disturb me for the very reason that many are arguing that it seems like Buffy killed a real person (her aggressiveness versus Kathy gave me a similar feeling). First of all, I am of the camp that feels her attack should be morally viewed as an attack on a man moreso than on a robot, since she had never arrived at the conclusion that he was indeed such a creature. The level beyond that reflects whether Buffy was justified in doing what she did as a result of what Ted had/was doing to her. Certainly a teenage girl is justified in self-defense. However, another term is also relevant: "extreme prejudice." Whether Buffy used more force than necesssary versus Ted depends on how aggressive Ted appeared to be and what other methods Buffy had open to her. Let's hold up the untarnished hero as our foil for the moment and consider what she would do. In such a situation, she should have ideally attempted to disable Ted without killing him -- Slayer-strength versus apparent human strength should have sufficed. Buffy may have been engaging in such an action and simply have gotten carried away. So, she is not as trigger-happy as the shotgun example might make her seem. However, she shows significantly less restraint than an ideal character would. Buffy should not be completely free of remorse since she was probably very capable (assuming the she was mentally lucid) of disarming or dissuading Ted without using the force that she did. That Buffy was under extreme pressure, gives her slightly greater leeway with respect to her actions -- to some degree she couldn't control the amount of force she was using. Buffy is not wrong for having defended herself, but the form that defense took was certainly questionable.

I think very few, if any, would argue that Buffy is a cold-blooded killer. Nor would many argue that Buffy is a saint. To some degree, we've been seeing a progression of Buffy from selfish to sefless, however which can parallel how we view her treatment of humans. Contrast Ted with Ben, for example. Or the quite evident Prophecy Girl versus The Gift Buffy seems to be a more-than-moral girl with occasional slips towards the dark side.

Or perhaps I'm wrong and as Willow said in Döppelgangland "some people just don't have that in them."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Nice Post! -- Rahael, 16:13:58 08/24/02 Sat

Ted reflects Buffy's issues with father figures....one of the great scenes in Season 1 is her scene with Hank in Nightmares. She is not happy with being edged out of the family, and Ted constantly harps on about how Buffy isn't good enough.

I also saw Buffy acting out of a pain and desperation there - not as the Vampire Slayer, but as Buffy the girl. I also believe that Ted set up the fake death, and that the fall was premeditated on his part, to really get Buffy out of the picture. His house was full of the bodies of his ex wives - he is a literal Bluebeard, the archetypal patriarchal misogynist. He wants to subdue Joyce and Buffy, to make them into the vision of a bygone 'perfect family'.

ME often explore serious issues in two stages - an earlier, less serious way, followed by a very dark, serious exploration. Often the first time is in a comedic ep, and then the second time, it turns to tragedy. Ted was one of the times when even the first go was pretty shocking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Nice! -- HonorH, 18:01:54 08/24/02 Sat

Your take sums it up: Buffy's no remorseless killer, but she's no saint, either. She's got lots of levels of in between in her, as do we all. The cases in which she's killed, or attempted to kill, humans, illustrate this. How many of us have a line that could be crossed that would lead us to consider killing another? How many of us *really* don't want to know if there's that line in us?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- HonorH, 18:09:49 08/24/02 Sat

*Except that we don't know that Faith's death was inevitable. Buffy survived the experience of curing Angel. Presumably Faith would also, though maybe Angel would show less restraint for Faith than for Buffy.*

The fact is, all canonical evidence shows that Buffy didn't expect Faith to survive, and neither did Faith. Buffy could even have told Angel she could survive him drinking from her in order to get him to feed--she was willing to sacrifice her own life for him. Buffy was willing to trade Faith's life--or her own--for Angel's. How much of that was pure altruism and how much of that was genuine anger toward Faith on Buffy's part is up for debate, and even Buffy probably couldn't tell you. Buffy's no saint. Faith got to her like no one else. And when it came down to Faith dying vs. Angel dying, Buffy was willing to either kill Faith or deliver her up to death.

I'm not saying this makes Buffy a bad person. I am saying there's a shade of gray there. Faith brought them out in Buffy, and that's why their relationship was such a fascinating one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: battle frenzy -- leslie, 17:40:48 08/23/02 Fri

Getting onto my Indo-European warrior hobby horse here: One of the persistent problems that I-E myths about warriors are constantly trying to address is what do you do with a warrior who goes berserk? As I've mentioned before, the problem with warriors is that you have a bunch of people who are strong, well-trained in offense and defense and the use of weapons, and who work best when they are not stopping to ruminate on each action before they take it but are capable of acting quickly and with trained instinct in crisis. This is great when you have an enemy to defeat, but every so often the warrior gets so carried away in the moment and frenzy of battle, he (or she) attacks anything that comes his or her way, without stopping to assess whether it's friend or foe. It seems to me that the underlying point of the whole Ted business was that it was the first time Buffy encountered this possibility in herself. She was already upset about not being believed about Ted's threats to her, she was frustrated and ready to pop, and then he gave her an opening. She wasn't thinking about every single blow, she was just hitting, and he took it. Like just about every other thing she's ever hit--was she really taking a moment to think, "Hmm, well this is peculiar, usually it's only vampires and demons that can stand up to this kind of pummelling." She was on Slayer autopilot. By and large, I really hate this episode--mostly because of the whole John Ritterness of it--but I think it's a seminal point in Buffy's development as a warrior, and it's part of the reason that both Faith and Spike regard her as being a goody two-shoes with a stick up her ass--she's constantly aware of what she's capable of, while Faith and Spike are all for giving in to the heat of the moment. All have their points.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: All of those. (quite long) -- Robert, 14:33:31 08/23/02 Fri

You wrote:

>>> What she did to Ted and Faith should have killed them if they were human - a good attempted murder is just a murder where something goes wrong. And although the "this is war" rationale isn't something she accepts, it seems to have done the trick for the Knights she offed.


You've accused Buffy of murder or attempted murder in relation to Ted, Faith and the Knights of Byzantium. I will discuss them individually.

Ted

  1. Buffy did not murder Ted.

  2. Ted was not even human.

  3. Buffy did not even attempt to murder Ted. She responded to Ted's assault and battery of herself. Ted struck first, without warning and without just cause.

  4. Ted encroached upon the personal space (ie. Buffy's bedroom) of a minor child (Buffy was still only 16 years old) without the permission of either Buffy or her mother. He refused to leave when Buffy told him to.

  5. When she thought that she had killed Ted, she was stricken with remorse. She fully accepted responsibility for her actions, because she had not intended to kill him.

  6. Ted and Buffy were trading blows. If her blows would have killed a normal human, then she would immediately have known that Ted was not a normal human. It was only after Ted faked his own death that Buffy thought she had killed a human. Thus, she had not been landing killing blows. Recall also that Ted's fake death occurred as a result of falling down the stairs, not as a direct result of Buffy's blows.

  7. He was capable of ceasing battle and retreating at any point during the battle. As long as Ted was merely menacing, she couldn't justifiably do anything. The moment Ted landed the first blow, Buffy's imperative changed to protection of self, family and friends. She could not retreat; she was already in her own bedroom.

  8. Once Buffy knew that Ted was a robot, it was fair game for destruction. Thus, Buffy did not kill a human.

Knights of Byzantium

Whether she accepted the rationale or not, Buffy did not need the rationale of this is war. Buffy did not willingly march to the field of battle to engage the enemy. Buffy and her family and her friends were running from the threat of Glorificus and the Knights. It was her sincerest wish to avoid any fighting and to get to safety. The Knights had previously stated to Buffy their full intent to murder Dawn and anyone who got in their way. In the battle during Spiral, they were attempting to make good their threat. Thus, Buffy was fully justifiable in protecting her self, family and friends from the immediate deadly attack by the Knights.

The Knights that Buffy may have killed were directly attacking her and friends and family. Buffy was fighting them off with inferior arms and numbers. To conclude that Buffy murdered them is outrageous. Should she have merely laid down and let them murder her instead?

One might ask; was she remorseful? If she was, she didn't have opportunity to show it. Buffy went from battle with the Knights, to siege by the Knights, to battle with Glorificus, to coma, to battle with Glorificus, to death. Somewhere in all this, I think that Buffy deserves a little slack.

Faith

You argue that Buffy's actions with Faith was just a murder where something goes wrong, because Buffy's blows would have killed a normal human. Your argument is a non sequitur. Buffy's blows would have been attempted murder only;

Buffy did know that Faith was a slayer, thus she knew that Faith was not a normal human, thus she knew that she was not landing killing blows, thus she did not commit attempted murder until she used the knife.

When Buffy went to Faith's apartment in Graduation Day, she did not intend to kill Faith, merely to capture her. My evidence for this is the use of the handcuffs. Only after Faith broke free of the cuffs did Buffy resort to the knife. Buffy was given only three choices in this episode; let Angel die, let him feed upon herself possibly killing her, let him feed upon Faith possibly killing Faith. Since Angel was dying as a direct result of the unprovoked attack by Faith, poetic justice alone suggests the proper course of action. Since Buffy did not die as a result of Angel's cure, then Faith need not have died either. Thus, Faith was fully capable to making right the crime she committed when she shot Angel with the crossbow. Thus, it was her choice to resist Buffy's insistence that she provide Angel's cure. Does a murderer have more right to life than their innocent victim? And what about justice for Faith's crimes?

Faith operated outside the justice of the normal law, both because she was a slayer and because of the Mayor protected her. She was also outside the justice of the Council of Watchers, because they were incompetent. Thus, Buffy was left with the unasked for responsibility of meeting out justice to Faith personally. There was no reason to believe that Faith would not have continued murdering innocent people if Buffy had not stopped her. Let us recall the flack Buffy took for not stopping Angelus before he murdered Ms Calendar and other innocent humans. Because it was Buffy's responsibility to protect humanity from the scourge of vampires, she does bear partial responsibility for not stopping Angelus when she had the chance. By the same argument, if she hadn't stopped Faith, she would similarly be partially responsible for any subsequent crimes committed by Faith. If the police kill a murder suspect in a gun battle with him while attempting to take him into custody, is that murder?

Was Buffy remorseful? I think she was, as shown by her actions in the hospital after she awoke. Buffy always felt some sympathy for Faith, given her hard life without a loving family and friends. Buffy understood that Faith was jealous of Buffy and her place in Sunnydale.



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>nicely said -- Dochawk, 14:55:02 08/23/02 Fri

I would add that we are assuming the Knights of Byzantium are human, because they have human faces (Buffy certainly does). They appear mystically, they are not native to our time. they are chasing the key through whatever places the monks took it. You can easily justify that they weren't human (yes you could use the same arguements about Dawn, but Dawn was made of human DNA,do we know the Knights were? or were they like Glory who took a human form on earth?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Mr Gordo, 19:00:12 08/23/02 Fri

So if the Knights were human it would have been wrong but if they were demons it would be okay? So you are judging by race, not individual behaviour. If you conclude the Knights deserved to die, Buffy didn't have a choice fair enough. But don't say that if they were demons fighting to save the world from Glory then it would be okay to kill them, but not if they were human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Dochawk, 21:19:26 08/23/02 Fri

Thats a different arguement. All I was exploring was Buffy killing humans. I don't think its safe to assume the Knights were human. Buffy is absolutely in her rights to defend herself and her friends against human or demon.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:15:34 08/23/02 Fri

Glory brainsucked one of the knights. She only seemed able to do this to humans, so the Knights were not demons.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said - Glory brainsucking -- Dochawk, 21:17:17 08/23/02 Fri

On the contrary she says to Murk that he is intelligent because she hasn't sucked his brain yet. I am pretty sure Murk wasn't human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said - Glory brainsucking -- Rook, 23:11:07 08/23/02 Fri

The knights were definitely human, at least if Spike's chip can be trusted (and we're led in "family" to believe that it's a good indicator of humanity), since he got headaches from hitting them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Agree with your comments. Also... -- Artemis, 18:55:23 08/23/02 Fri

In regards to whether or not Buffy felt remorse in regards to the Knights I think you're right she didn't have an opportunity. But I found it interesting that she says to Xander in regards to Willow in 'Villians' "Killing people changes you, believe me I know." So this has had an affect on her and she is aware of it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Killing People Changes You -- Robert, 00:43:05 08/24/02 Sat

>>> "So this has had an affect on her and she is aware of it."

I imagine it did have an affect on Buffy. I believe that if given a chance, she would have mourned those she was forced to kill. The key word is "forced". My concern when I wrote my previous posting was that some people on this board were referring to the cold-bloodedness of Buffy's actions. I don't believe for a second that Buffy was cold-blooded in her actions. I believe that they tore into her heart, especially because she was forced to do them. After all, if she hadn't fought and kill the Knights, then they all would be dead.

Even worse, some people have argued that Buffy should have allowed Dawn to be destroyed, in order to avoid all the unpleasantness that followed. Imagine the damage that Buffy's soul would have sustained if she had. Dawn was constructed as the ultimate innocent victim.

[> [> [> [> [>If you were, we'd have to rename you 'Arold -- Dead Soul, 16:53:38 08/22/02 Thu


[> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. -- Miss Edith, 11:43:50 08/23/02 Fri

I know a lot of people criticise Marti'e episodes but perosnally Villians was the only episode containing dark Willow which held my interest. I was gripped when she planned to torture and kill Warren. It made sense but showed my favourite character becoming horribly corrupted. I was moved at the remaining hints of her humanity when she saved Buffy in the hospital. And when she spoke of Tara whilst torturing Warren saying "you took her light away".
The writers lost me when they made Willow a cartoon villian. Seeing her scream like a bansheee at the police station and borrow Giles power saying "I am so juiced" just made me cringe. And there was no way I could believe the character was Willow when I saw her throwing Giles around the room and torturing him, and challenging her best friend to a girly catfight smirking she is going to kick Buffy's ass. That wasn't Willow any more and I stopped caring. I was not happy with the portrayal of grief at all. Giles brought up Tara and there was no sense of Willow being in genuine pain or losing her mind. She was just a gloating evil villian to fight. I started caring about her again only in the finale when Xander tries to save her. The evil Willow storyline really did not work for me. What was most dispointing was I had waited 3 years for that story to build up. Not only were there only 3 episodes of evil Willow, but they weren't even good episodes.
I really wish Willow had been corrupted by power and all the talk of Willow having an addictive personality and being taken over by the "magics" had been avoided. When I read the interview in which David Fury said "you have to remember that wasn't really Willow" the only word that came to mind was cop-out. I had looked forward to a mature exploration of someone being seduced by power. I was gripped by our Willow threatening Giles in Aftelife and planning gruesome vengeance on Warren. When she was planning to kill all her friends and we were told "Willow doesn't live here any more" I was bitterly disapointed.

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. -- shadowkat, 12:19:36 08/23/02 Fri

I agree with you on the Willow thread. I too was waiting
for a better payoff and was disappointed by the cartoonish nature of the last two episodes: Two-To-Go and Grave, which if you've seen John Carpenter's Vampires - have ripped off two scenes from it. (If you haven't? Don't bother. Not my favorite film. Very hokey. And reminiscent of Rio Bravo.)
Made me realize our writers have seen one too many B westerns and horror movies lately. ;-)

I liked what I thought they were leading up to in Flooded.
That amazing scene between Giles and Willow in the kitchen which gave me a chill. Or even in Tough Love and WOTW. Smashed was even sort of leading there.
Then they took an odd turn in Wrecked. It was almost as if they'd pannicked. We can't do the power-trip, we'll lose the character, so hey, I know let's go addiction instead.
(I would have preferred the power trip and I held out hope all the way up to Two to Go that was where they were going.)

You, Darby and a few others I can't remember, are right when you state they copped-out. I think they did. They had been leading to something remarkably interesting and went the easy route, the cliche (not the lesbian cliche - the drug addiction cliche that has plagued every twentysomething - post high school television drama since the medium was invented.). MAkes me wish they watched more television and less B movies. But oh well. ;-)

Now instead of seeing a young woman struggle with the guilt of killing someone, of letting power take over and her own insecurities - I'm afraid we'll have a continuation of the drug-addiction story line, where we see Willow in withdrawl and struggle with the dark magic trying to possess her.
Would have found the other story far more interesting.

Even though Villains had plot-holes and Two-to-Go was smoother plot wise. Villains was far more gripping and interesting regarding Willow.

Oh well - maybe I'm just expecting a bit too much from the writers. Not sure how I would have done it if I'd been in their shows.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. (obtuse season 8 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 12:49:43 08/23/02 Fri

joss has been planning this for at least 3 years. I believe that you are right that he planned on having her go really dark on the power trip. I think they looked and said, how do we get her back? If she does go all the way, how do we make her sympathetic to the other characters again or more importantly the viewers. if this had been the end of the series (or Alyson had decided she had enough, not 3 more years on her contract)i think they would have chosen the braver route. But then you would be looking at a potential season 8 with Spike, Dawn and Xander. With the exception of the spikaholics, there would be little for them to work with.


Potentially politically incorrect Willow speculation
-- Darby, 12:06:19 08/22/02 Thu

First, I am not now nor never have been a lesbian, nor do I play one on TV.

However, there seem to be an inordinate number (maybe 20% of the total work force, but I haven't done the math) at my wife's workplace, and it's a very sharing group. Anyway, this is third hand and I wondered if anyone out there with some expertise could confirm. Could I get any more oblique?

When we come back for S7, Willow will have been grieving for already three months for someone who, except for the whirlwind reconciliation, she had broken up with maybe 8 months back. She's young, she's resilient, she's pretty centered on her own needs, ME needs to confirm that she won't be "switching back," so I think it's pretty clear that she'll going back onto the market (there's got to be a better way to put that...) during S7.

Thing is, my wife's lesbian friends claim (and their actions seem to confirm) that lesbians don't "date," they "fall in love."

Will Willow follow this pattern? Will ME let her, knowing that it might seem to minimize Tara? Is this even a reasonable question?

- Darby, an anthropologist on Venus dancing on the edge of an active volcano. Probably blindfolded. Possibly on one foot.

[>A suggestion from someone with lots of experience in this area -- CathSith, 12:20:23 08/22/02 Thu

"Darby, an anthropologist on Venus dancing on the edge of an active volcano. Probably blindfolded. Possibly on one foot."

....once you get the rythym of the volcano's music, hopping up and down *a lot* is often an appropriate response...

[>Personally, I'd like to see her have a one-nighter with Faith. -- HonorH, 12:29:34 08/22/02 Thu

Oops! I think Honorificus got out for my subject line.

As for Willow's dating habits, Joss hasn't ruled out the possibility of another girlfriend for Willow. My thoughts tend to run the opposite of yours, btw: the separation and brief reconciliation will actually make it harder for Willow to move on. She'll probably feel (not incorrectly) that her misuse of magic led to her losing a lot of time with Tara, with whom she was still in love, even if they weren't together.

[> [>And right afterward, Best Buddies Willow and Xander can compare notes. -- cjl, 12:39:01 08/22/02 Thu


[> [>Why one night when we've still got a whole season left? -- Apophis, 14:32:59 08/22/02 Thu


[> [> [>Now you're sounding like a Xenite. -- HonorH, 16:41:09 08/22/02 Thu



Anybody read Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter"? (S6 spoilers)
-- KdS, 06:44:35 08/23/02 Fri

Can think of some massive parallels to SR through "Grave", but don't want to waste space if no-one knows what I'm talking about.

(Although a telepathic, misanthropic stealth bomber would have been just what Will needed... :-) )

[>Re: Anybody read Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter"? (S6 spoilers) -- aliera, 06:55:45 08/23/02 Fri

KdS: Haven't read it but the reviews were good weren't they? I'd be interested to hear about the parallels...please do post 'em.


Is death still her gift? (small teensy spoilers)
-- Purple Tulip, 08:02:55 08/23/02 Fri

I was just sitting here, pretending to be working on my last day of work before I leave for college, and I was thinking about that now famous line from season five "death is your gift". This had always plagued me ever since I watched "Intervention". I know that Buffy took that to mean that death could be her gift to Dawn- sacrifice herself for her sister and the good of the world. But when I first heard that, I honestly thought that the first slayer was talking about her being a slayer- killing vampires was her gift.

SO this got me thinking---how many ways can this line be interpreted?

1. Death as gift= sacrificing her own life to save her sister and the world- her death is her gift to the world and to Dawn.
2. Death as gift= slaying. She can do something that no one else can do to save humanity (well, ok, Faith can to do it too, but isn't she locked up?)
3. Death as gift= the love of two dead men. The very unlikely love and loyalty of two vampires (both of which have souls) is a rare gift given to her (maybe by the Powers that Be so that she can help on their roads to redemption).
4. Death as gift= the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow. "Death is you gift" meaning that she can die but never really be killed---how many people can claim that?
5. Death as gift= killing Angel/Angelus and sending him to a hell demension. Here, death was again her gift to the world; she sacrificed the man that she loved to keep the world from being sucked in by Acathla.
6. Death as gift= the destruction of the mayor and again, the saving of Sunnydale. She again orchestrated and carried out (with help) something that no one else could have done. She sacrificed the school to save the town---death was her gift to her classmates upon graduation.

It seems that there has been elements of death as Buffy's gift at the end of each season. Has anyone else noticed the ambiguous meaning of this blunt statement? Am I just completely reading too much into this or could it mean something more than just dying for Dawn? Are we still to see more incidents of Buffy's "gift"? Opinions please!!!!

[>Death as a gift is an underappreciated concept in Western Societies -- cjl, 08:34:36 08/23/02 Fri

Not to swerve off-topic on the first response, PT, but the idea of "death is your gift" can be interpreted as a tremendous blessing conferred upon the Slayer, if not a virtual anunciation. Western society views Death as a horror, the final barrier, the looming catastrophe, the Sword of Damocles, etc. But in Eastern religions, death is a necessary and integral part of the cycle of life; Buffy's role as Death-bringer bestows upon her a sacred place in the cycle, destroying so that life can begin anew. Being chosen as the instrument of Death, in fact, may be the universe's gift to HER.

[> [>Re: Death as a gift is an underappreciated concept in Western Societies -- skpe, 09:01:28 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy as an avatar of Sheva?

[> [>Killing vampires -- matching mole, 09:02:55 08/23/02 Fri

is often regarded as an act of mercy (e.g. in many Dracula movies). It allows the soul to rest in peace, in a natural death. This doesn't really fit in with the BtVS vampiric metaphysics but slaying could in some sense be regarded as a gift to the humans who have been vamped, freeing them of the parasitic demon. Of course Spike and Angel complicate the issue but this is BtVS after all.

[> [>Re: Exactly. -- Wisewoman, 09:56:25 08/23/02 Fri

Somewhere deep in the archives there's a discussion of this very subject and I remember posting something similar, a mention of how death itself can be seen as a gift, rather than a horror to be avoided at all costs.

(As I recall, I didn't have much success convincing people, though! LOL)

;o)

[> [> [>Really? Must've missed that one, WW, or I would have backed you up. -- cjl, 12:21:46 08/23/02 Fri

I can understand why Buffy doesn't see it that way, though. She has to deal with the blood of innocent victims, demon mucous, and allergies to all that dust from staked vamps. Easy for Watchers to babble on about how holy and sacred Slaying can be: they don't have to clean up the mess most of the time.

[> [> [> [>The watchers also get paid ;-) -- shadowkat, 12:53:12 08/23/02 Fri


[>Go with your first answer (small spoilers) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 09:00:11 08/23/02 Fri

Remember when you were younger and well-intentioned individuals would tell you, that, when taking a test, "always go with your first answer."? In that same vein, my first interpretation of "Death is your gift." after seeing "The Gift" was twofold:death was Buffy's gift to the world, sacrificing herself to make its continued existence possible and death was a gift to Buffy, the reward of final rest after all her exertions as a hero for the last five years. Both these interpretations seemed equally valid to me at the same time and, hence, equally ironic. Now, after reading your post, I see that there are even more ways of reading this ambiguous prophecy.

[>Re: Is death still her gift? (small teensy spoilers) -- Dochawk, 12:31:14 08/23/02 Fri

In the way you are looking at it;

The death of Billy Fordham which she didn't cause but allowed. Billy was set to die a painful and horrible death. Buffy allowing him to die quickly was an unconcsious act of mercy.

[> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- Robert, 15:40:13 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "The death of Billy Fordham which she didn't cause but allowed."

When you say that Buffy allowed Billy's death, does that mean she had an acceptable choice in the matter? The way I see it, Buffy's choices were;
1. go back inside and both she and Billy die at the hands of our good friend Spike, or
2. do not go back inside and only Billy dies at the hands of Spike.

Did you see another choice in the episode "Lie to Me"?

[> [> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- Dochawk, 15:55:23 08/23/02 Fri

Guess I wasn't clear, nope, I don't think Buffy bears any responsibility whatsoever, I was just saying that she did him a favor (and I speak from my experience as an MD here about what a young person with a terminal brain tumor goes through).

[> [> [> [>Um, eternal damnation folks? -- KdS, 06:24:04 08/24/02 Sat

We're dealing with a universe that canonically has an afterlife. Given that, I don't think that leaving someone wuith a soul to die in a state of moral ambiguity can ever be considered a good thing...

[> [> [> [> [>I really would adivse against going there ... (not as bad as it sounds) -- Earl Allison, 14:31:42 08/24/02 Sat

Because that opens a very thorny issue that, quite frankly, undermines the entire Buffyverse.

If you contend that Buffy left Fordham to die (I don't, he tried to kill her, and bashed her over the head minutes earlier -- was she supposed to throw her life away in what would have been a failed attempt to save him?), then Giles and the Scoobies are responsible for Harmony, Larry, Snyder, and all the others who fell at Graduation -- because they didn't do more to protect them from the supernatural (call the National Guard, whatever).

Like the Scoobies at Graduation, Buffy did what she could with the resources and time she had -- all while at least paying lip-service to the idea that the supernatural is NOT a mundane/known occurance. That's why the students fought, and we didn't see the police or the army, which we almost certainly WOULD have in real life, supernatural mayor or not :)

It's just, if you get TOO into the semantics, you risk pulling the curtain away and ruining the show, at it were. There is a certain amount of disbelief necessary for the show, and taking the argument to its logical conclusion would disrupt that disbelief.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> [>There's an afterlife in the Buffyverse, but that doesn't mean it's a way to punish sinners. -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:14:50 08/28/02 Wed


[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Was going to let this die, but... -- KdS, 06:31:49 08/29/02 Thu

Finn's post opens up one of the big problems in the Buffyverse, that has nothing to do with the individual question of Ford.

We've seen that there is some kind of afterlife in the Buffyverse ("I Only Have Eyes for You", "After Life", "Room w/a Vu", arguably "Reprise") but it's very unclear what kind. In particular, although the word "hell" is used a lot there's no evidence that any of the various "hells" we've seen are actually a place of posthumous punishment. "Hell" simply seems to be used to refer to any dimension inhospitable to humans. The closest we've seen is in "That Vision Thing" where Billy does seem to be being tortured rather than merely restrained, but it's unclear if he was actually dead or if his plight was eternal.

However, if the Afterlife is anything other than a straight bliss/torment affair as in traditional Christian cosmology, then it demolishes the whole justification for the special sanctity of human over demon life. If killing a souled person could mean that you are consigning them to eternal damnation, while dead demons are just annihilated or returned to the hell (in whatever sense) from whence they came, then there's a reason for not killing humans (but killing evil demons). If, however, the afterlife is just a continuation of the moral journey then all that happens is that the person moves to the next stage a little earlier than before. Of course, there is the question of the pain to the people who knew them and the potential for reformation and restitution on this planet, but that seems to apply to (some) demons as well (the fact that Spike went to get a soul of his own free will, regardless of whether he fully understood the implications, seems to me to demolish the "demons are unreformable" thing).

Is there any way to rationalise this, short of just not thinking about it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>I don't see this -- Rahael, 06:37:30 08/29/02 Thu

Because I don't think that such considerations *should* have any weight.

Buffy kills Vamps and harmful demons because they harm other people. She doesn't operate from a complex ideology which tells her that she must go on a holy crusade. She is a pragmatic defender of mankind.

She must be good, and just, because that is a reward in itself. She died in the Gift, not because she knew she would be rewarded, but because the action itself, saving Dawn, saving the world was reward enough.

It seems the afterlife in Sunnydale is as uncertain as life. All anyone can do is to act in an ethical manner. And hope for the best!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- KdS, 06:59:09 08/29/02 Thu

But in that case why not kill Faith in "5 By 5", or Warren post-"Dead Things" or Holland Manners? All of them were so immoral or so out of control that they posed an imminent hazard to anybody who got in their way. What I'm asking, is why are humans special, except that "they look like us" (which I really won't accept).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Yes I see -- Rahael, 07:10:11 08/29/02 Thu

Perhaps the explanation is that there is a process by which we deal with human wrong doers: the process of Justice. The court of law, prison if guilty.

But yes, I find it pretty confusing. I just keep repeating to myself: "the monsters are a metaphor! Slaying is a metaphor!"

LOL

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Yes I see -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:12:12 08/29/02 Thu

First off, we know Buffy went to heaven when she died, or something very much like it, but that is obviously not what happens to everybody. Ghosts are proof of this. If there are these two options (ghost and heaven) why can't there be more options for an afterlife. Besides, what Buffy considers Heaven may be insufferably boring for a number of other people.

As to the kill demons but not humans thing, I'm going to do the blasphemous and suggest that BtVS and Angel have different canon (*gasp* shudder).

In BtVS demons are for the most part innately evil. They can't help it, it's what they do. They are different from human beings on a spiritual level. While there have been some good demons on BtVS (Clem, some of Spike's other poker buddies, and that demon from Enemies, Season 3) they all share the common factor that they're wimps. It's implied that they are not evil simply because they can't handle violence or are too scared.

On Angel, however, we've seen many examples of good demons, and not neccessarily wimpy ones. Spiritually, they aren't much different from humans, or at least, some aren't (it's hard to tell if the ability to be good is up to each individual demon or if only certain species have it, since at least one species, vampires, has been shown to be unredeemable). This is a break in canon from BtVS. Why does Angel consider it moral to kill evil demons but not evil humans, then? Because that's exactly what the demon in him wants. Angel spent over a century torturing and killing humans as Angelus. And the desire to do so is still in him. So, if he slinks up behind Lilah one night and kills her, his dark half is getting what it wants: the chance to commit murder. And, once he gets a taste of it again, will Angel be able to stop? Or will his vampire urges, awakened in the killing of a human being, take over and lead him to murdering the innocent along with the guilty? The second option is too great a risk.

That's my two cents. Any takers?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Yes I see -- LittleBit, 10:47:28 09/01/02 Sun

Perhaps it's not so much a difference in canon as it is a difference in locale. Sunnydale is situated on a Hellmouth, and is most likely to attract the 'worst of the worst' so we see more innately evil demons in its vicinity. Los Angeles is a more diverse location without the draw of a specific nexus of evil, so the demons who reside there reflect that diversity.

Therefore Sunnydale gives us the polarization of good and evil (the Slayer and the Hellmouth) while Los Angeles shows us the range of good and evil.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Malandanza, 08:44:27 09/01/02 Sun

"But in that case why not kill Faith in "5 By 5", or Warren post-"Dead Things" or Holland Manners?"

I'll go further and ask: why does Angel work so hard to redeem people? It would have been easier (and safer for the rest of the world) for Angel to kill Faith, Lindsey, human Darla and Lilah, yet in each case he tries to reform them (Lilah even mocks him for his naiveté). If there is no afterlife, why is redemption important at all?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Arethusa, 10:52:59 09/01/02 Sun

Maybe it isn't important. It's certainly outside our control-Angel couldn't save Faith, Lindsey, or Darla-they needed to do it themselves. All he could do was help them when he was able, to let them know that they're not alone in the struggle. Why struggle to be good at all? A nearly unfanthomable question. Maybe that's where the soul comes in-it makes us long to be good, to be at peace with ourselves. Once again, my favorite quote in the Wedonverse, from "Epiphany," written by Tim Minear:

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Throughout our entire lives we all seek a close connection to others-maybe it's a return to the closeness we experienced with our mothers, or a need to conquer loneliness, or a desire to be reunited with God-there are many many theories and no clear answers. The acts of kindness give us the sense of union with others that acts of selfishness and other evils do not. It is doing good that makes us feel we "contain multitudes." (I love Whitman, too.) It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand.

Quote by psyche.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Exactly -- Rahael, 13:58:35 09/01/02 Sun


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Malandanza, 21:34:22 09/01/02 Sun

"Angel couldn't save Faith, Lindsey, or Darla-they needed to do it themselves. All he could do was help them when he was able, to let them know that they're not alone in the struggle."

I don't want to turn this into a debate on semantics -- about what we mean by saving someone else, but I do believe that Angel was instrumental in saving Faith, Lindsay and Darla. Yes, in each case the individual had to make the choice, but they might not have had the choice (and certainly would have been less likely to take the opportunity to change) had it not been for Angel. Angel "saving" Faith is his most noble deed. If Faith, Lindsay and Darla would have been saved regardless of Angel's actions by their own free will, what was the point of Angel trying so hard? He could have left them to their own devices, to swing towards hellfire or heaven according to their individual preferences. His efforts made a difference, and that is what I mean when I say he saved them.

"Why struggle to be good at all? A nearly unfanthomable question. Maybe that's where the soul comes in-it makes us long to be good, to be at peace with ourselves. Once again, my favorite quote in the Wedonverse, from "Epiphany," written by Tim Minear..."

Angel also talked about the perfect clarity of evil. When he was evil, he was at peace with himself. Angel has barely had a moment's peace since he was ensouled -- even in his noir period, when he had given up on good, he was more at peace than before he let the lawyers die.

Now, I have long thought that the soul is distinct from the conscience -- the soul recognizes the difference between good and evil and rewards the person for doing good, while the conscience punishes for doing evil. So Buffy's soul was at peace, in Heaven, because her overactive conscience was left with the body. She could enjoy the good that she'd done without agonizing over the people she failed to save.

Whatever the reason for saving people, AtS was a more compelling series in Season Two than BtVS was in Season Five because of the focus on redemption.

"It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand."

I think it is possible for evil creatures to feel a sense of belonging, a camaraderie and still do evil. The Fanged Four flashbacks seems to bear this out -- Darla was genuinely concerned for Angelus when she torched the gypsy village, Spike really did see Angelus as his Yoda, and Dru... well, she's just insane. Prior to Katrina's death, the troika also had a sense of union that they did not have before they went evil. The Gorsches were a family, and cared for each other even in their vampire state -- and so on. I also disagree with the motives you assign Lilah and Lindsay. I don't think there was any emotional connection between Lilah and Wesley -- at least not on Lilah's part. It was just sex -- it could have been anyone. If she had had sex with Angel, that might have been different. She seems to have an "unhealthy attachment" to him. As for Lindsay, he could live with himself. Last we saw, he was still alive and still wore the stolen evil hand. I am reminded of Claudius' repentance speech in Hamlet, where the king recognizes that he cannot repent while he still hold possession of the things he committed the crime for (Gertrude and the crown). Lindsay made good progress, but he still needs work. He did not, as Faith did, turn himself into the authorities and expose the machinations of W&H.

My feeling is that redemption is important, especially on AtS and it is the presence of the soul, and the prospect of an afterlife, that makes it important. The afterlife has been addressed from both side -- a saved person who returns from the dead experienced inexpressible peace, a damned person (Darla) returns with no recollection and is filled with a strong enough sense of loss that she talks to Angel about whether or not there is a Hell.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Arethusa, 10:04:05 09/02/02 Mon

Yes, Angel was instrumental in saving Faith, Darla and Lindsey. When I said he couldn't save them, I meant only they could make the decision to turn their backs on evil in the end. After Angel helped Faith, she still ran away, but she came back on her own-if Faith hadn't decided to accept Angel's words, his help would have been useless. Same with Lindsey-he turned his back on Angel's help for a corner office, but finally decided after he saw W&H treat a man he knew slightly as a living donor bank to quit the firm. It was his decision in the end. Human Darla changed because of Angel's heroism and self--sacrifice, but he still couldn't save her because he couldn't control the actions of W&H.

If Faith, Lindsay and Darla would have been saved regardless of Angel's actions by their own free will, what was the point of Angel trying so hard? He could have left them to their own devices, to swing towards hellfire or heaven according to their individual preferences.

That's my point. All Angel could do is try to help them, for his own sake, for the sake of doing good. He couldn't force them to do anything, or control the outcome. When Angel failed to rescue Darla, he felt that meant everything he was doing was useless, hopeless. Since he hoped that saving Darla would help redeem himself, he was crushed, and began a downward spiral that, ironically, ended with Darla's rejection of evil (herself) so good can live (Connor, whom she said was the only good that ever came from them-little did she know).

Angel wasn't at peace during his gray period-he was empty, numb, ice-cold. It was "perfect despair." (Reprise) Being good is a constant, painful struggle for everyone in both shows, as in real life.

I can't say for sure what a soul is. I believe Wedon has said it's a moral compass, and that sounds like conscience to me.

Yes, the Fanged Four do have a camaraderie, a sense of belonging so strong that it keeps them together for decades. But Angel tells Holtz and Jimmy in "Heartthrob,"* that they'd all just as soon betray each other, and they did-Angelus and Darla betrayed each other if convenient,** Angelus began taking Dru from Spike, Spike betrayed Angelus to Buffy, and Darla left Angel when he was souled.
I don't think there was an emotional connection between Lilah and Wesley-I think her yearning for some type of connection might have made her sleep with Wesley. She could have just slept with him as part of her campaign against AI. But why is she still talking to her mother, who evidently didn't even know who she is? She says she doesn't have a conscience, so why do more than send a check? (Or do anything at all?)

Redemtion is important. That's why Angel still tries to save others. But why he does it has changed.


*Elisabeth to Darla: "I heard he trapped you both in a barn and *you* fled, leaving him to die."

James: "It's not true."

Angelus looking at Darla: "It's entirely true. She hit me with a shovel, wished me luck and rode off on our only horse."

**ANGELUS: (to Holtz) He's in love, it's all very passionate and befuddlin'. Tell you what, how 'bout I give you him and the women...

Holtz looks interested. James can't believe it.
ANGELUS: They're down at the docks.

Both quotes by psyche, from "Heartthrob."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>You evoked whitman... -- aliera, 11:30:28 09/02/02 Mon

Throughout our entire lives we all seek a close connection to others-maybe it's a return to the closeness we experienced with our mothers, or a need to conquer loneliness, or a desire to be reunited with God-there are many many theories and no clear answers. The acts of kindness give us the sense of union with others that acts of selfishness and other evils do not. It is doing good that makes us feel we "contain multitudes." (I love Whitman, too.) It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand.

"I celebrate myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good as belongs to you."

Sorry, no self control...that's me!

[> [> [> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- mucifer, 17:46:42 08/24/02 Sat

I totally agree with you I'm a pediatric oncology nurse and have patients with brain tumors. I think this Buffy episode was excellent use of subtext for someone dying young and being cruel to his friends and the confusing and painful effect that can have on a teen like Buffy. To me the not caring if he kills all his friends was powerful subtext and it really worked well, not to mention his total desperation. It was by far my fav episode til "hush" was aired.

[>I'm irresistably drawn to Neil Gaiman's Death. -- HonorH, 12:55:51 08/23/02 Fri

Can't resist the connection, as I'm currently Gaiman-obsessed. In his "Sandman" series, Death is portrayed as a young woman with a keen sense of humor and a great fondness for the souls she leads into the afterlife. She's the most sensible and grounded of her siblings, the Endless, repeatedly kicking her favorite brother, Dream, out of his broods. It frankly bums her out that humans don't look forward to seeing her more, as she only comes to guide them from one state of being to another.

Death was a gift to Buffy. She gave it, giving her life in the place of Dawn's, and she also received it, finding peace for the first time since her Calling. This leads me to believe Buffy has no fear of death anymore. However, as of the end of the season, I think the difference is that Buffy no longer fears *life*, either. She'll live her life to the fullest, and when Death comes for her, Buffy will greet her as an old friend. Which will be nice for both of them.

(On a side note, Elena Zovatto has a couple of really intriguing BtVS/Sandman xovers in which Buffy meets Death. They're at FanFiction.net, which will be back up tomorrow.)

[> [>Re: the same bloody question answered -- Just George, 17:16:25 08/23/02 Fri

Quote from FFL, via Psyche and Joan the English Chick:


Spike: "Every day you wake up, itıs the same bloody question that haunts you: is today the day I die? Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later itıs gonna catch you. And part of you wants it. . . not only to stop the fear and uncertainty, but because youıre just a little bit in love with it. Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day. That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: Whatıs it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, thatıs the secret. Not the punch you didnıt throw or the kicks you didnıt land. She never wanted it. Every Slayer. . . has a death wish. Even you. The only reason youıve lasted as long as you have is youıve got ties to the world. . . your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but youıre just putting off the inevitable. Sooner or later, youıre gonna want it. And the second‹the second‹that happens. . . You know Iıll be there. Iıll slip in. . . have myself a real good day. Here endeth the lesson. I just wonder if youıll like it as much as she did."


Now she knows. Buffy knows both sides of death, causing it and what happens next. Her death and resurrection gives her every reason to lose her death wish. She knows that heaven awaits after her heroic life. And without her death wish, and with her ties to the world rebuilt, Buffy just might live as long as she wants to. Maybe forever.

I can dream.

-JG

[> [> [>Lovely thought, JG. -- HonorH, 17:19:54 08/23/02 Fri

I hope so as well.

[> [> [>of course, Spike has no real knowledge of any of this -- Dochawk, 17:28:15 08/23/02 Fri

Spike is totally making this up. Unless he has had some relationship with slayers we don't know, he has no reason to know any of this. He is doing what he does throughout season 4, spin to make Buffy and friends doubt and wonder.

He has met 2 slayers that we know of, one the Chinese Slayer spoke no English and Spike speaks no chinese. The second Nicki, we know little about, except that she was pummeling Spike (instead of staking him) and the screen goes black for 5 seconds and their situations are reversed and Spike breaks her neck. There is nothing in either encounter that we see that supports his statement. Neither Kendra or Faith exhibited anything close to this. This statement which so often is used as an example of Spike's insight is nothing but bluster. if Buffy believed it, her response should have been to stake Spike that moment. Nope I don't think you can use this to show Buffy had a death wish at all. (And one still wonders why Spike is able to hit her, there is plenty of intent in what Spike does).

[> [> [> [>Re: slayer death wish -- leslie, 17:52:50 08/23/02 Fri

I don't know, I think you could make a good case for Faith having a death wish. As a general rule, if you are working within a Freudian psychological model, death wishes are manifested by risk-taking, which certainly operates with Faith. Freud also holds that sex and death are intimately related; furthermore, Freud's "death wish" is not the same thing as depression or suicidal ideation, it's a longing for union with the void. Faith's consistent linking of slaying with sex seems to indicate a very Freudian death wish.

Kendra, we really don't know enough about her to make any assumptions, but I think you could argue that at least in the moment of her hypnosis by Dru, she is also in the grip of a death wish again in the sense of union with the void.

Of course, you could also argue that if you're being Freudian, Spike is right because according to Freud, *everyone* has a death wish. Question: how much Freud do you think Spike has actually read?

[> [> [> [>Spike has great insight into humans. -- HonorH, 17:57:50 08/23/02 Fri

He's demonstrated this time and again, from his "You'll never be friends" speech in "Lover's Walk" to his playing with the Scoobies' heads in S4. So I think it's not unreasonable that he would be right about the Slayer death wish. I definitely think it hit close to home with Buffy--hence her discomfort and anger with him for saying it. Also, one must keep in mind that Spike is often Exposition Man for the ME writers. This is how *they* see Buffy.

[> [> [> [> [>Re: Spike has great insight into humans. -- dochawk, 18:08:30 08/23/02 Fri

And Spike frequently fakes it or makes it up. "What kind of demon are you?' "You came back wrong". he stretches and manipulates facts all the time. Yes he is frequently right, but that makes the best liar and manipulator. You have to be correct often enouhg so that the stuff you say is believed. And I don't think Spike was thinking about death wish in any way Fruedian. There is no evidence at all to support his statement. This one statement in particular is so obviously meant to manipulate at this point, Buffy was in the perfect position to believe it all and he took advantage.

[> [> [> [> [> [>But what was the point? -- HonorH, 18:55:10 08/23/02 Fri

Spike couldn't kill Buffy then. He had little to no hope for a relationship with her. She bullied and bribed him into telling her about the other Slayers, and IMHO, he told her what he genuinely thought. Spike, you'll recall, has always had a fascination with Slayers. He's only killed two, but my bet is he's paid attention to the exploits of plenty of others. That makes him as genuine a scholar as the Watchers if it's true.

The structure of the episode also argues against you. Spike starts out his narrative lying like a dog--"I've always been bad" segues into William Wyndham-Spyke, and "I had to get me a gang" cuts straight to Angelus throttling him--but as the narrative progresses, he starts telling Buffy the truth, and by the time we reach the pivotal scene, we're cutting back and forth, reliving the past in its entirety. Spike wasn't *lying*.

So we're left with two theories:
a) Spike's full of crap, as is his theory, or
b) He's onto something there.

I'm going with b. Especially considering that having everything stripped away brought Buffy to her final sacrifice--her death--shows that in a very real way, Spike's theory paid out in full.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: But what was the point? -- auroramama, 18:36:14 08/24/02 Sat

I love the complexity of Spike's message to Buffy in FFL, and its ambiguity. What *was* the point? The audience knows, though Buffy doesn't, that Spike isn't actually in favor of something nasty getting a taste of Buffy, or having itself a really good day, unless, maybe, it's him. So what is he telling her? On several levels:

1) Ha-ha, I may be chipped an' all, but *something* is gonna getcha sooner or later.

2) And I really hope it's me. Because I've wanted to get even with you for years and it still sounds kinda tempting.

3) Besides, fighting and killing each other is great fun, because it's metaphorical sex. Let's have some fun, darling!

4) Although actual kissing would be extremely OK with me too.

5) Aren't you turned on by this discussion of your eventual slaughter? I would have brought you flowers, but I don't know what kind you like. Sex and death goes with everything.

6) How can you treat me this way? I was just trying to be nice!

And of course he was, in his way, which includes the spiritual perversity of a vampire who was made to love another, insane, vampire, and the human perversity of someone who's hopelessly in love with someone who detests him.

I think Spike is right about the average Slayer having a death wish. How could they not? Death is their only constant companion, except for a Watcher who is in the highly ambiguous position of encouraging her to fight the monsters that will eventually kill her. Eventually the loneliness gets to be too much for them.

How does he know this? We're not told explicitly, but I believe we're meant to believe that he learned a lot about the Slayers he fought, simply because he fought them. Action is communication, and the script says that Spike connects completely with the Chinese slayer for that instant before he tosses her away. He doesn't know the literal meaning of what she's saying, but he knows *her*, what she's feeling, through the medium of her body. And she's apologizing. Perhaps she thought she hadn't tried hard enough. Perhaps it was even true.

As for the Slayer in New York, we don't know what happened when the lights went out, but Spike presumably does. And since the Slayer was winning and then she wasn't, is it much of a stretch to assume that she faltered, that she was tempted, perhaps unconsciously, by the chance to lose? I don't think we can assume that Spike was inventing all that.

I wanted at one point to have an angry Buffy tell Spike that by his own confession he never defeated a Slayer; they simply used him to commit suicide. He was just... convenient. But he's not likely to be boasting about that any more, so I suppose she'll never get the chance to say it.

auroramama

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: But what was the point? -- shadowkat, 21:09:44 08/24/02 Sat

"I wanted at one point to have an angry Buffy tell Spike that by his own confession he never defeated a Slayer; they simply used him to commit suicide. He was just... convenient. But he's not likely to be boasting about that any more, so I suppose she'll never get the chance to say it."

I'm not completely sure she didn't. In Wrecked right after he says the line: "I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be...."

She leaps up and more or less tells him: "You were just convienent."

And in FFL? When tries to have a go at her? She says:

"It will never be you Spike, you're beneath me."

A line he echos in SR : "We were never together. She'd never sink so low as me."

So I think she did in her own way. And in a way that probably hurt far more than what you mention would have.

Agree with everything else you posted by the way! Excellent post.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Pausing briefly to bow down before FFL -- ponygirl, 08:46:01 08/26/02 Mon

Nothing really to add to the great posts by you, HonorH and shadowkat, auroramama, but felt inspired to say once more to the world how much I love FFL. The whole alley sequence, the intercutting and final unifying of past and present; the range of emotions we're meant to feel towards Spike: pity, fear, then pity and fear again. And finally the last scene on the porch with Buffy: Spike starting to move beyond his sad, blustering, dangerous unlife or back on the wheel again, forever the fool? Sooo good...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Pausing briefly to bow down before FFL -- auroramama, 20:09:27 09/02/02 Mon

It's just amazing work, and it stands up to repeated viewing and endless consideration remarkably well.

[> [> [> [>Hopefully, we'll get a better understanding -- Dochawk, 09:11:39 08/25/02 Sun

With Doug Petrie's commentary when its out in October.

[>maybe we can narrow it down a little -- anom, 21:19:56 08/25/02 Sun

Good question, PT, & well-thought-out answer(s). The 1st slayer also said, "Love will lead you to your gift." This seems to apply to some of your possibilities more than others, & may support the idea that they fit in with "Death is your gift" better.

"1. Death as gift= sacrificing her own life to save her sister and the world- her death is her gift to the world and to Dawn."

Definitely has to do w/love.

"2. Death as gift= slaying. She can do something that no one else can do to save humanity (well, ok, Faith can to do it too, but isn't she locked up?)"

Seems more like duty than love, at least for most of the series.

"3. Death as gift= the love of two dead men. The very unlikely love and loyalty of two vampires (both of which have souls) is a rare gift given to her (maybe by the Powers that Be so that she can help on their roads to redemption)."

Love-related, but did love lead to it? Which comes 1st?

"4. Death as gift= the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow. "Death is you gift" meaning that she can die but never really be killed---how many people can claim that?"

Hard to call--the 1st slayer made it sound like it was Buffy's love ("You are full of love) that would lead her to her gift. But in these cases it was the love of her friends that brought her back. Maybe in terms of that love being mutual? (BTW, what was the 3rd time? Prophecy Girl, The Gift, & what?)

"5. Death as gift= killing Angel/Angelus and sending him to a hell demension. Here, death was again her gift to the world; she sacrificed the man that she loved to keep the world from being sucked in by Acathla."

Again, a hard call. Did she give this gift out of love, or was her love for Angel overcome by her duty to the world (not to mention self-preservation)? I don't think she saved the world because she loved it; she seemed to feel more that she had to. There's also the question of whether this counts as death, since Angel remained undead.

"6. Death as gift= the destruction of the mayor and again, the saving of Sunnydale. She again orchestrated and carried out (with help) something that no one else could have done. She sacrificed the school to save the town---death was her gift to her classmates upon graduation."

Did love lead to this gift? Maybe not love for the whole class, but for her friends? Again, hard to define. In another sense, it was not Buffy's love but the Mayor's--for Faith--that enabled Buffy to kill him after his transformation, so you could say that it was his love that led Buffy to the gift of his death, or at least to the way to give that gift.

[> [>How many times has Buffy died? -- Sophist, 10:33:27 08/26/02 Mon

the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow.

I have seen other posts suggesting that Buffy "died" in Villains, but I don't get it. I have watched Villains and re-read the shooting script, but Buffy clearly was not dead when Willow entered the operating room. Willow may very well have saved her life, but we'll never know if