August 2003
posts
Buffy, grief and loss -- Ann, 14:12:05 08/01/03 Fri
Who and what has Buffy lost permanently? In that I mean dead and gone and not still hanging around somewhere else. Like Willow lost Tara ñ that final, permanent you know youíll never ever get it back in any form on this earth with any chance of another conversation- kind of loss.
Her pre-slayer life
Her Heaven (or wherever she was?)
Her mother (but kept showing up being used by the first)
Jennie (but that was more Gileís permanent loss)
Her father (but he is still hanging around somewhere -idiot that he is)
I have been thinking about grief lately. So of course thoughts turn to Buffy. Yes she has lost much in her life but other than that listed above, people have returned or are still hanging around somewhere else.
She lost Angel. She killed him but he came back and is not permanently gone. I think she glimpsed loss with his short death. They may never have a relationship again (who knows) but he does show up in times of trouble.
She lost Spike and she did let him go, but he is coming back on AtS in some form. Buffy doesnít know that yet but I am curious how she is handling the present-time grief that she should be experiencing.
Does Buffy read spoilers?
She lost Riley but he is back in Iowa and the military.
She lost Anya in the end but her death seemed to pass remarkably smoothly.
She lost Tara but that was Willowís loss. I think AHís portrayal of Willowís grief was as strong if not stronger than SMGís portrayal of Buffyís loss of her mother.
They tell Buffy her gift is death (I think this is one of the most important lines in the series) but I think that she has only experienced it fully with her motherís death. The death was huge for her but indeed her motherís image kept coming back in later episodes. The depiction of her reaction to Joyceís death was real and beautifully overwhelming to watch. But I think it was the only time that Buffy had to comprehend what death really is. Other lesser character died here and there, and she has had many adjustments that she has had to make in her life but for the true finality of loss, she actually hasnít had to face as many times as it would appear considering she is a slayer. As I understand the slayer power, the demon within that gives her power, might feed off of the grief and the slayer, as protector, would cease to exist thereby allowing all demons to be free.
Maybe the slayerís soul and its internal/eternal battle is the true and final hellmouth.
I think I am done rambling now.
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Re: Buffy, grief and loss -- Vickie, 14:35:04 08/01/03 Fri
Ann, I think you nail Buffy's greater losses: Angel, her Mom, Spike, Tara. But a lot of the hell of being the slayer has to be the smaller losses. All the people she could not save.
I believe Lessons showed us that. The revenants in the new high school would not have troubled Buffy even as much as they did if she did not mourn every person who died while she was busy saving someone else. When Teresa died in Phases, Buffy didn't only check out her wake to find clues. She signed the guest book, and genuinely felt the loss of a classmate.
In fact, a lot of Season 7 revolved around Buffy's paralyzing anticipation of that loss and grief. Every time she talked about the "burden of slayerness" this season, she mentioned the "little girls" who would end up dead. I have no doubt that, in her quieter moments, Buffy thinks of the potentials who died in the Hellmouth and before. She probably thinks about Jonathan, and second guesses her every action concerning him.
Buffy even feels an inappropriate guilt about Cassie (Help). Though we (the audience) can see clearly that Buffy "saved" Cassie from a traumatic and horrifying death, she still died. And Buffy felt that she ought to have been able to save Cassie.
I think that may be the ultimate curse of the slayer. To always feel that you "should" be able to save everyone. Even when reason tells you that's impossible. You're right, an ultimate hellmouth.
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Re: Buffy, grief and loss -- RJA, 12:47:04 08/02/03 Sat
Definitely agree with the fear of loss being a major theme in season seven, and I think that extends to all the potentials that died. In many ways Cassie was foreshadowing this trend - that people will die, no matter how much you try to save them.
And I think this fear led to a certain paralysis with Buffy, or at least severely affected her. In charge of all those young girls she was convinced couldnt all be saved by her. Chloe, in particular, I think had a real affect on her. And maybe that was what she was trying to do with the Slayer spell - instead of being the one to do the impossible task of saving all the girls, she tried to help them save themselves.
Oh yeh, and she lost her carefree spirit :-)
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How about Kendra? -- Tyreseus, 15:32:27 08/01/03 Fri
I often think about Kendra's death as Buffy's first big grief on the series. Overwhelmed as it may have been by her grief over Angel, I always wonder how much the loss of that friend impacted her decision to run away from Sunnydale.
Some might argue that Kendra was more of a minor character, but I think Kendra had so much impact on Buffy's early development as the slayer, I consider her to be more important than that.
Kendra was a kindred spirit of sorts, a sister slayer, someone who understood what it was like to be different. They taught each other, learned from each other, and (of course) fought together. What's more, Kendra's death reaffirmed the mortality even of slayers.
We always remember the summer Buffy ran away because she grieved for Angel, but I think she greived for Kendra, too.
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Re: How about Kendra? -- Ann, 10:17:25 08/02/03 Sat
I agree. This also began the fear and experience of anticipatory grief for all that was to come. I also agree that it made her realize her own mortality more than anything else could have. Someone wrote on this board once that Buffy's journey breaks your heart. It is so true!
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I think you are correct, Ty -- Vickie, 15:43:34 08/01/03 Fri
One could attribute Kendra's death directly to Buffy in two different ways. First, that Angelus was the indirect cause, and Angelus was not Angel because of Buffy. Second, because Buffy fell for Angelus's ruse and met him across town, leaving Kendra to safeguard the others.
A slayer should have been guard enough, but who could have foreseen Drusilla's on-again off-again mentalist powers?
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Kendra was a reflection -- sdev, 22:54:55 08/01/03 Fri
She must have seen possibilities of her own death in Kendra's- they were both slayer's with the same risks. Very scary to see her die.
"I Robot... You Jane" Revisited -- Darby, 14:52:37 08/01/03 Fri
Less interesting conceptually this time, but lots of freeze-framey deliciousness!
Not much of the script got left out this week. One interesting thing - most of the passages that get somewhat technical, plus the background snippets indicating that someone is messing with files around the world, are marked as rewrites / additions. I would have liked a line about how Sunnydale attracts technopagans, too, but at this time, as I understand it, Ms Calendar had no additional backstory to cover.
Although it isn't specified in the script, the opening 1418 scene is set in Cortona - I wonder why?
Now, I'm pretty sure that this is completely wrong, but it looks like Anthony Stewart Head in the Moloch get-up to me - something about the mouth and the narrow facial plane...
This episode originates many details that would reappear in later ones. How many times do you figure the costumers re-used the monk outfits?
Just last night, I watched a Star Trek - The Next Generation featuring the Klingon messiah figure Kayless, who is also the empowering entity to the Buffyverse binding spell. Is that a coincidence, an homage, or some sort of in-joke?
Did the book have Moloch's image on it before he was imprisoned there, or was the image necessary to set up the binding spell? It did stay after he went... But that might mean that there are books that were made but never used, which are blank pages.
Was the book written in the language of Moloch's demons? If so, this would be the first reference to demon languages, especially written ones, which implies demon species or at least cultures.
Robia LaMorte. Gorgeous. Former dancer for Prince, I understand. What I don't understand is why she hasn't had more of a career.
Computer geeks actors come on a little strong, although Fritz is a bit atypical as a geek.
Should Willow have noticed the blanking book? After doing lots of scanning, I can see getting focussed on the screen and not the source - and showing it blanking as she turned the page would have involved much more expensive effects.
Maybe the book was largely blank anyway, with Moloch on just those few pages, so when Willow went to shut up the book, having it "reset" (as open books will do) to a blank section didn't seem that odd to her.
I suggest that as an all-purpose Corruptor, Moloch contains a Universal translator - that's why he adapted immediately to his surroundings, being able to speak binary and send words to the monitor in English. Plus, having English right away made it unnecessary to explain English later.
Willow has a picture of her and Giles (with matte border) hanging in her locker.
Ms Calendar (Nicki in the script, changed to avoid confusion with Nicki Brendon), toddles into class looking like she, like Willow, had also been busy all night - one suspects it would not have been online.
Buffy's school records - collect the whole set! The first one (green window) does specify her as a senior, but also misspells 2 of the 6 categories ("Abscences" and Althletics"). And she's a brunette! At least she wasn't Kristy Swanson...
2nd set of records, supposedly a single-screen expansion of the first, is close to completely different. One of the files it opens over on Fritz' monitor is labeled "Buffy...I, Robot". And there's another, "Projector", so Fritz is an AV geek, too?
Okay, "Malcolm" is derivative of "Moloch," sort of. Any thoughts on why Malcolm Black?
Buffy worries that Willow wouldn't know if Malcolm had "a hairy back." So do folks usually check for hairy backs early in a relationship? It seems like an odd choice, but I guess they were evading features that might be obvious in some viewers.
The script's Willow line, "Maybe I'm not his ideal of babelitude either" became "Maybe I'm not his ideal," almost as if by this time they had decided to shy away from things that actually sounded like pop culture teenspeak. Good idea.
It just occured to me that Buffy, Willow, and Xander have all had flings with multi-centennial oldies.
The script directs Dave to have his fingertips all band-aided, and they went to the trouble (Yay freeze-frame!), but someone must have realized that typing your fingers raw was a bit...much.
One interesting bit of metadialogue, Buffy to Giles, which I'd swear was in the original broadcast episode but isn't on the DVD: "I don't know, I've got all the pieces but no puzzle. Or, I've got puzzle pieces but some of them are missing. Or they're in the wrong place in the puzzle...I hate metaphors." Maybe this is why these writers didn't last-?
Buffy's outfit in the Dave-then-Giles scenes is one of the few things I've ever seen that really is colored like Superman's hair - black, but blue where the light highlights it. Of course, it's really blue rather than black. Forget the glasses, why hasn't anyone noticed Clark Kent's prematurely blue hair?
Dave drives off. Then Buffy does, what? Run across town at 30 - 40 mph to stay up with him? No one notices Buffy, with that determined look she gets (SMG's "I'm NOT gonna run like a girl!" look, the only thing she does as Buffy - except maybe laughing - where you can see her working at it), zipping after him? In go-go boots?
When the security camera at CRD picks up Buffy, the software is labeled "Watcher Pro Surveillance."
I find myself wondering what it was like to go to Torrance High School, where the show filmed - it must have impacted extracurriculars at the very least.
Xander knows about CRD - he's lived in this town, he would know stuff. Why's it have to be predicated on a janitor in the family?
Even without the onscreen references, it's hard to ignore the parallels between Buffy and Peter Parker...perhaps there's an essay in there somewhere...
Monitor screen with Malcolm dialogue - also a blonde in sunglasses and what looks like a "J" on a red leaf.
When Jenny opens the Moloch book, it can be seen that the first page does have writing on it.
What works on paper in a "very dark" computer lab doesn't do well on screen - that lab is too well-lit for Buffy not to notice the hanged student in the back.
If you know that the voice on the radio Giles listens to is Joss (I read that today doing background), it's so obvious as to be hard to understand how you never heard it before.
How accidental was it that Molochbot looks like a Predator(TM)?
Buffy goes over the fence, and Xander plummets after - another bit that gets replayed. Buffy and Spike, Andrew and Jonathan - how many other times?
Whoever is in the Moloch suit belongs in the Theatre Guild from the semi-pilot - way gesturey!
Does Moloch truly love Willow? This is the first time the question really arises - what is love to a demon?
Jenny's magic circle includes Hawaii, Mexico City, Denver..and Vancouver! Were any ATPoers involved?
To duck Moloch's last shot, the Buffy evasion in the script involves a "perfect split," but neither actress nor stuntwoman apparently could fulfil that stage direction.
Where'd Giles get that ugly vest in his last scene, and are we all thankful it never returned?
So where does one dangle a long dangly corkscrew?
And we see what has become an internal cliche - the doomed love. For everyone. Every time. Bummer.
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Re: "I Robot... You Jane" Revisited -- MaeveRigan, 15:23:37 08/01/03 Fri
Xander knows about CRD - he's lived in this town, he would know stuff. Why's it have to be predicated on a janitor in the family?
Just the beginning of a trail of textual evidence establishing that Xander comes from a long line of blue-collar folk without great expectations, much less ambition. Eventually we'll get the abuse and the alcoholism, too. Xander's a guy who'd be going nowhere fast without his friends.
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Re: "I Robot... You Jane" Revisited -- Anneth, 16:20:51 08/01/03 Fri
Okay, "Malcolm" is derivative of "Moloch," sort of. Any thoughts on why Malcolm Black?
For some reason, Moloch's name reminds me of the John Cusack character in Grosse Pointe Blank. JC plays Martin Blank, a hit-man returning to his home-town for his 10-year high school reunion. While there, he attempts to take up with his high school girlfriend. The connection probably doesn't exist outside my own mind, but the two (IRYJ and GPB did come out about the same time, I think.)
More likely, ME named Moloch Malcolm Black because of the word's associations. Black , in terms of the electromagnetic spectrum, is the absence of color/visual light. In terms of pigment, black has sinsister connotations ranging from 'shadowy-mysterious' to 'evil.' Either way, "Black" seems like a perfect last name for the imaginary computer-nerd identity of an evil demon; there is no Malcolm, and the truth behind Malcolm is pretty sinister itself.
Dave drives off. Then Buffy does, what? Run across town at 30 - 40 mph to stay up with him? No one notices Buffy, with that determined look she gets (SMG's "I'm NOT gonna run like a girl!" look, the only thing she does as Buffy - except maybe laughing - where you can see her working at it), zipping after him? In go-go boots?
I'll spare you my rant about Buffy's awful, impractical footwear and the dangers of running in high-heels. ;)
Ms Calendar (Nicki in the script, changed to avoid confusion with Nicki Brendon), toddles into class looking like she, like Willow, had also been busy all night - one suspects it would not have been online.
Interesting that they bring almost exactly the same name (Nikki) back years later, in FFL. And we don't learn that Nikki's name is Nikki in that episode, either.
Does Moloch truly love Willow? This is the first time the question really arises - what is love to a demon?
'Kay, so Moloch gets himself a nice little robot-suit and then inhabits it. by doing so, does he become the first in a line of 'love-bots'? Sure, Moloch's suit isn't designed primarily for - um - love, at least as far as we know. But it does give him a physical presence. Moloch, in his robot-suit, becomes a self-aware robot, much the way Ted, April, and the BuffyBot are. Sure, Moloch is a demon and Ted is a person before they become robots, but the fact remains that, as robots, all four literally embody an idea (Moloch: world domination,or whatever. Ted: retrieve erstwhile wife. April: be a good girlfriend to Warren. BuffyBot: please Spike/slay) and act on behalf of that idea.
Anyway, I'm not going to indulge in an essay about the ethics of destroying self-aware robots, at least not here. Maybe I'll start a thread about it sometime. And IRYJ doesn't really set off too many ethical-quandry-alarms anyway; Moloch was an evil demon bent on world-domination, or something. Plus, he was going to kill Willow.
And we see what has become an internal cliche - the doomed love. For everyone. Every time. Bummer.
I see IRYJ, Angel, and Teacher's Pet as a triumvirate making up one of the themes of S1, which is just as you stated: doomed love for everyone. Poor Scoobs.
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Robot Wars stuff -- Jay, 19:28:07 08/03/03 Sun
It's towards the bottom of the page.
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/road2sunnydale/exhibit.html
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Moloch -- mamcu, 20:22:55 08/01/03 Fri
I may have missed this--I'm sure it's all there in detail in Rob's annotations. Maybe we should start everyone of these discussions of old episodes with a link to the annotation.
Still, here's the background on Moloch:
The name means "King." "The sun god of the Canaanites (Ammonites?) in old Palestine and sometimes associated with the Sumerian Baal, although Moloch (or Molekh) was entirely malevolent. In the 8th-6th century BCE, firstborn children were sacrificed to him by the Israelites in the Valleye of Hinnom, south-east of Jerusalem (see also Gehenna). These sacrifices to the sun god were made to renew the strength of the sun fire. This ritual was probably borrowed from surrounding nations, and was also popular in ancient Carthage. Moloch was represented as a huge bronze statue with the head of a bull. The statue was hollow, and inside there burned a fire which colored the Moloch a glowing red. Children were placed on the hands of the statue. Through an ingenious system the hands were raised to the mouth (as if Moloch were eating) and the children fell into the fire where they were consumed by the flames. The people gathered before the Moloch were dancing on the sounds of flutes and tambourines to drown out the screams of the victims. According to some sources, the Moloch in the Old Testament is not a god, but a specific form of sacrifice." From http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/moloch.html
More important to the Buffy version is Allen Ginsberg's section of "Howl":
"What sphinx of cement and aluminium bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!
Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!
Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgement! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!
Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!
Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovas! Moloch whose factories dream and choke in the fog! Moloch whose smokestacks and antennae crown the cities!
Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!
Moloch in whom I sit lonely! Moloch in whom I dream angels! Crazy in Moloch! Cocksucker in Moloch! Lacklove and manless in Moloch!
Moloch who entered my soul early! Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body! Moloch who frightened me out of my natural ecstasy! Moloch whom I abandon! Wake up in Moloch! Light streaming out of the sky!
Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisable suburbs! skeleton treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations! invincible madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
They broke their backs lifting Moloch to Heaven! Pavements, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about us!
Visions! omens! hallucinations! miracles! ecstacies! gone down the American river!
Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive bullshit!
Breakthroughs! over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone down the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! Despairs! Ten years' animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!
Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off the roof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!"
"Moloch whose soul is electricity!" Such a great choice of a name for a character who became one with cyberspace, where we're all bought and sold every day.
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From the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols...... -- Rufus, 22:54:53 08/02/03 Sat
From the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols....
Moloch: To present one's children to Moloch (Melek) was to burn them in sacrifice to the Cannaanite god. Moses, as the Lord's mouthpiece, forbade the Children of Israel to practise such rites: 'Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God' (Leviticus 18:21). 'He...that giveth any of his seed to Molech,...shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones...Then I...will cut him off and all that go a whoring after [Moloch]' (ibid. 20:2,6). However, the Children of Israel and even Solomon and other kings, often relapsed into this form of idolatry. Children were either burned alive upon the altar or within the hollow body of bronze statues dedicated to the god, while their cries were drowned by the shouting and the drum-beating of his priests.
In Semitic languages Melek means 'king' and became the name of a deity worshipped by the people of Moab, Canaan, Tyre and Carthage and often confuse with BAAL. This cruel cult has often been compared with the myth of the Minotaur (who periodically devoured his allocation of young people), with that of Cronos (who ate his own children) and with the sacrifices offered to the Inca gods. Moloch should, undoubtedly, be regarded as an ancient image of the jealous, vengeful and pitiless tyrant who demands that his subjects obey him to the death and who levies their goods and even their children, doomed to death or battle or on the altar. His defenceless subjects yield complete submission to the direst threats of this all-powerful king.
In modern times, Moloch has become the symbol of the tyrannical power of the all-devouring State.
From the Herders dictionary of symbols:
Moloch: Originally a Canaanite god to whom human sacrifices were made, later it became a general symbol of forces that harm or destroy human beings (specifically, inhuman political systems).
Gee, sounds like someone is making at statement about the internet....;)
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I think more about dictators and power than the internet -- Rahael, 12:06:18 08/03/03 Sun
Once, Moloch used to live in books, and then he moved on to the internet. I don't think it's a condemnation of the internet (otherwise we'd have to condemn books too), more a theme about the nature of power and knowledge.
I think it's interesting that the nature of the internet not only empowered Moloch but ultimately lead to his downfall - it's a faceless internet circle of power lead by Jenny Calendar that leads to his downfall. Or is that just my memory misleading me?
So there may be a sense in which the internet is anarchic and hard to control by the powers that be.
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Yes, there's a LOT on this ep in Rob's annotation -- Rahael, 04:14:25 08/02/03 Sat
I think this ep is more about power, not just love. There's a tie in with Fritz Lang's movies, not only 'Metropolis' which features a Moloch, but also 'M' which is the letter that one of the characters in this ep carves into his skin.
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Lang and anime and Milton -- mamcu, 16:47:17 08/02/03 Sat
Slight digression to discuss Metropolis and Milton, but all related to IRYJ.
I just saw a showing of the Lang Metropolis paired with the more recent anime version. It was truly wonderful. Both featured horrific visions of the Babel-tower nature of modern cities, and the destruction at the end of each was heartbreaking in the light of recent events (like Winter's Tale). There must be something archetypal in the destruction of the city (tarot card, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) Interesting that the Babel tower was used, b/c it got back to the other compelling theme of IRYJ, the power of language.
I guess thinking of those two made me regret all the more that they went for the cheesy robot at the end, when there were so many neat possiblities inherent in the idea of having a demon in cyberspace--it could have gone even beyond the vision in the anime.
But somewhat OT: Milton's version (In Paradise Lost)of Moloch is much like the one in the myth study I found:
First MOLOCH, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud
Their childrens cries unheard, that past through fire
To his grim Idol.
Interesting that Ginsberg's Moloch is more related to money, etc. I wonder if Ginsberg used the name Moloch for its savage sound, but really took the idea of Mammon. Maybe Mammon's name has lost its poetic power. Or maybe he conflated the two.
At any rate, back to MRYJ, the sacrifice of children also got lost in this episode. Here he was just "the Corrupter," which seems unrelated to any other version of Moloch I found.
Well, once again, probably repeating discussions from the annotation. Is there a link to that, anyone?
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Here's the link! -- Rahael, 11:55:52 08/03/03 Sun
http://www.justinleader.com/annotatedbuffy/iryjmaster.html
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Well, at least I repeated some great thinkers! Thanks! -- mamcu (and thanx to cjl, ponygirl, and anom), 19:49:18 08/03/03 Sun
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Re: "I Robot... You Jane" Revisited -- Cactus Watcher, 20:30:44 08/01/03 Fri
At least Moloch's horns look like the same ones Giles grew in "A New Man" in season four. Speaking of which after Jenny in "I Robot... You Jane," Prof. Walsh was the first woman near his age with whom Giles had an argument about an intellectual topic. And he chases after each of them in fashion, both of them betray Buffy, and both of them end up killed on camera. Ah, isn't literary analysis fascinating. ;o)
Actually, being a linguist I have no problem with Moloch using English. I do have a problem with him instantly figuring out how to address the machine level I/O routines to blank the monitor screen and make characters appear. That's the miracle. The fact that the characters turn out to be coherent English is just icing on the cake. Most of the time it's easy enough to overlook technologic pecadillos on Buffy, but the technology in this ep was just plain comedy.
Anyone with an answer to what the writers, Gable and Swyden, had in mind concerning the dangling corkscrew mystery, probably needs to get out of the house more often.
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found my notes! also, superman's hair & a few other things -- anom, 16:42:41 08/04/03 Mon
I jotted a few things down when UPN aired the rerun a few Sundays ago. I'll try to leave out stuff that's already been said, here or in the annotations.
Foreshadowing? Buffy tells Willow, "You are a thing of evil for not telling me this [i.e., about 'Malcolm'] right away!" Maybe it's a stretch to connect this w/Darth Willow in S7. Kinda like connecting Xander's "Oh, probably not, you probably have some vampire slaying or some lame endeavor like that, don't you?" w/Buffy's line in "Going Through the Motions" about sleepwalking through her life's endeavor.
I agree that Moloch sounds like HAL 9000 when he says Dave's name. Of course, this time Dave loses, although Moloch has to enlist human help to kill him. OK, I just brought this up as excuse to tell you all that I once worked on a computer magazine w/someone named Dave who had replaced some of his home computer's sounds w/clips from 2001. Bootup message: "Good morning, Dave." Shutdown message: "My mind is going--I can feel it!" And my favorite, the error message: "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave."
Interesting that Jenny knows of Moloch but doesn't recognize him on the book cover.
Buffy's a slow typist. Not so computer-savvy?
When Willow comes home to find "Malcolm's" message that it's time for them to meet, there's a vase of (ahem) pussywillows just inside the front door.... (BTW, Rob? A correction in your transcript: When Fritz kidnaps Willow, it says, "After a brief struggle Willow loses unconsciousness." Um, would you rather I let you know stuff like this by email instead of in front of everyone?)
OK, this is where my pen started to skip...looks like it says something about "pink screens of death" (pink?), & I'm sure I remember hearing it, but I can't find it in the transcript.
"Ms. Calendar: ...I'm putting out a flash. I just hope enough of my group responds.
Giles: Won't Moloch just shut you down?
Ms. Calendar: Well, I'm betting he won't figure out what we're doing until it's too late."
Well, considering how much info is transmitted across the Internet, I guess Moloch can't keep track of all of it. Jenny types as Giles reads. It occurred to me the spell would be more likely to escape Moloch's notice if she typed it into the word processing program offline & then copied & pasted it in all at once.
"Buffy: Building's security system is computerized.
Xander: Whoops!
A gas begins to spray into the hall. Cut to the library."
Uh-huh. All the modern computerized security systems spray gas to knock out intruders. Maybe it's a little more plausible when the Initiative does it (in the secret elevator, in Hush).
"Forget the glasses, why hasn't anyone noticed Clark Kent's prematurely blue hair?"
Maybe because most, if not all, people in the comic w/black hair have blue highlights. Lois Lane certainly does. And, at least back when all the characters were white, every single one of them had blue eyes, even if their hair was black.
"If you know that the voice on the radio Giles listens to is Joss (I read that today doing background), it's so obvious as to be hard to understand how you never heard it before."
Wish I'd known that when I saw the rerun!
"Does Moloch truly love Willow? This is the first time the question really arises - what is love to a demon?"
Actually, this kind of reminds me of the genie stories where the genie serves the person who released it from the bottle. Doesn't quite work out that way in this case, does it? And Moloch doesn't seem to care as much about getting a declaration of love before he kills as he did in the [really] old days.
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The gas -- Darby, 18:53:31 08/04/03 Mon
It doesn't quite fit the reality (what does in this ep?), but a lot of mainframe computer rooms have a fire extinguishing system that essentially evacuates all of the oxygen. But it happens VERY quickly. I remember my University mainframe having a sign up to the effect that when the alarm went off, you had "x" number of seconds to get out before the doors sealed and the gas was released.
Of course, I always thought of the Initiative's lethal countermeasures on folks who got caught in the elevator were a bit much...
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true, but on the other hand... -- anom, 22:49:54 08/04/03 Mon
"Of course, I always thought of the Initiative's lethal countermeasures on folks who got caught in the elevator were a bit much..."
...lack of O2 can be every bit as lethal. Just seconds to get out? Sheesh. But as for that elevator, hmm...considering what the Initiative might have to deal with, maybe being able to gas an HST escaping in the elevator wouldn't be such a bad idea. After all, they did have the backup code to punch in as a failsafe. And it was so human of Riley to have forgotten it...probably thought he'd never need to use it.
Probably the most realistic use of gas on the show was in Out of Mind, Out of Sight. Just the regular gas supply for the school. Hey, is this another theme--gas? Like 1st one lands, 2nd one plummets? Can we come up w/more examples? Starting w/Ground State...any others?
Bored. Boredy-bored-bored-board. Bored on the board! -- HonorH, 14:05:43 08/02/03 Sat
I know! Let's try a meme. The "My (character)" meme is the rage of the LJ world, and it's less boring than what we're doing now, i.e. nothing. Mind you, there are no right or wrong answers on this meme--it's strictly how you see the character.
My Dawn:
--thinks she might know exactly when she came into being
--but changes her mind about it every week
--has crushed on the following: Xander, Oz, Spike, a dozen or so Generic Middle School Boys, one or two Generic High School Boys, Tara, and Faith
--thinks Andrew might have had a crush on her
--really hopes so
--never really liked Angel
--but hopes he and Buffy can make it someday anyway
--liked Riley
--but saw the breakup coming a mile away
--occasionally obsesses about her origins and wonders if there really is a point to her existence
--and tries to figure out if she can make a point
--wasn't kidding about that Junior Watcher thing
--wishes Giles was her father
--sometimes wishes Xander was, too
--wants a Xander of her own someday
--has never really gotten over Willow going evil
--or Spike nearly raping Buffy
--really wishes she could've been friends with Spike again before the end
--is glad she finally got around to liking Anya
--even if she'll never forgive her for that bridesmaid's dress
--secretly savors the memory of slutting it up at the Bronze with RJ that one time
--loves Buffy more than anything
--sometimes hates her, too
--resents being overprotected
--even though she's just as protective of Buffy
--feels a bit smug that she's taller than Buffy
--feels even smugger that her boobs are bigger
--wants to ask Buffy if Mom was in heaven with her
--but is too scared
--wonders if her existence somehow pushed Dad away from Buffy
--tried to make the best of the house full of Potentials
--felt a bit guilty about despising the lot of them most of the time
--wanted to be one
--is glad she wasn't
--thinks that maybe, things will be all right after all
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Not bored now--my Dru -- mamcu, 16:33:16 08/02/03 Sat
My Dru:
--once had a real spiritual calling
--is still connected to something mystical
--now loves blood and pain
--is the essence of vamp in the 1920's sense as well
--wants servants sometimes, not lovers
--thinks pain is a joke
--has faced many different kinds of death
--too many to take it seriously
--has a strange but great fashion sense
--really had a deep connection with Spike
--in spite of the games she plays
--from somewhere got the ability to laugh
--even in the face of every possible torment
--is really strong
--but not strong enough to beat Buffy
--doesn't seem to remember much of prevamp life
--is like an ancient child in her laughter and callousness
--is still in love with Angelus
--is still in love with the old Spike
--isn't sentimental enough to brood over it
--is a little bit of a mystery to everyone
--maybe including herself
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Exceedingly cool! -- HonorH, 11:15:57 08/03/03 Sun
Especially the last one. One wonders just how much Dru understands of her own state. I sometimes think she's like Delirium of the Endless--in her way, she understands everything. Maybe that's why she's insane.
[>
My Andrew -- Tyreseus, 00:41:42 08/03/03 Sun
Ooh, this could by fun.
My Andrew:
--still imagines that he'll be the hero someday.
--still thinks of the world around him as a great story.
-- cried a little bit alone after Xander said Anya had done the stupid thing in saving him.
--has had crushes on literally every person he's ever been friends with except maybe Jonathon.
--still pretends he knows what's going on even when he doesn't if he thinks it will impess people.
--really wants to talk to Willow about Warren, but can't bring himself to.
--really wants to talk to Willow about being gay, but can't bring himself to.
--admires Willow more than any of the other scoobies.
--really wants to belong somewhere, to fit in, to have a place in a group.
--hangs on every word Spike says.
--treasures the memory of riding on the back of Spike's motocycle with his arms around Spike's waist.
--wonders where his brother Tucker went after Buffy stopped his prom plans.
--felt like he lost his best friend and hero after Tucker left.
--wrote those Klingon love poems Buffy found in the geek trio lair, although he'll never admit who they were for.
--has secret plans for proving to the scoobies that he can use his demon summoning skills to help them fight evil.
--is afraid to try those plans.
--is secretly hurt when the scoobies remind him that he's not really their friend by calling him names or making fun of his geekish tendencies.
--still has every line of the interview he did with Xander and Anya memorized.
--hasn't told Xander about his wheelchair fight with Anya.
--is slowly starting to realize that when he is true to himself, and not trying to impress people, they respond to him better.
--likes watching Smallville.
--and absolutely anyting on the SciFi channel.
--and wrote an angry letter when Firefly was cancelled.
--hates sitting in silence.
--talks about anything to fill that silence.
--loves to play games.
--never got to be the dungeon-master when playing with Warren and Jonathon.
--has had trouble sleeping since he killed Jonthon.
--reads comic books until he falls asleep.
--thinks that Giles really hates him, or at least finds him constantly annoying.
--is probably right.
--during the events of "Once More With Feeling," joined Warren and Jonathon in a concert-style debate over the best Star Trek series.
--overcompensated with the high notes during the chorus about Seven-of-Nine.
--is helping Dawn to learn how to read demon languages.
--feels like "one of the girls" during late night gossip sessions.
--really enjoys spreading on bits of gossip (especially if it has to do with romance).
And a final comment. Does any of us really want to know what Andrew meant in "The Killer In Me" when he said: Your promises of happy fields and dancing schnauzers and being demigods won't work on me anymore.
[> [>
An opportunity-- -- HonorH, 11:13:35 08/03/03 Sun
Ty, over at "Funnel Cakes and Flying Monkeys," someone's collecting the Andrew memes. Here's the page:
My Andrew
You should submit yours. This is really good. Love your take on OMWF!
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My Kennedy -- Tyreseus, 23:48:18 08/04/03 Mon
After Andrew, I felt like I had to do Kennedy. Partially because I liked both characters and so many other people were "ho-hum" about them. So this exercise has been great for helping me explore where I identify with these characters and why. Anyway...
My Kennedy:
--will say, do or promise anything to win over a girl sheís after
--wonders if that makes her a bad person
--will say, do or promise anything to keep Willow
--and doesnít feel at all bad about it
--wonders how long things can last between them
--still thinks Buffy is wrong more often than sheís right
--but finds herself holding her tongue more than she wants to because of Willow
--sometimes thinks about insisting that Willow watch the last scenes of Moulin Rouge
--never will
--well, maybe someday when sheís in a mood
--hopes that she can fill Taraís place in Willowís heart some day
--says she understands, intellectually, that is wonít ever happen
--resents Tara more than she wishes she did
--canít look at pictures of Tara
--once wore one of Taraís old blouses by accident and freaked Willow out
--worries that sheís not as smart as Tara or Oz were
--hasnít heard the whole story of Oz yet
--doesnít really want to if it makes her feel as bad as the Tara story
--canít imagine why Willow ever though of herself as a dork
--wants to slap Andrew a little too often
--was thinking about enlisting in the Coast Guard until a watcher started training her
--was thinking about enlisting in the Coast Guard when her watcher was attacked until Giles ushered her off to Sunnydale
--will write her parents and tell them where she is when sheís good and ready to
--admires Faith more than Buffy
--feels she has a lot in common with Faith
--like problems with authority figures
--wonders if sheíd be with Willow if sheíd met Faith first
--doesnít particularly like or dislike Xander, but tolerates him
--thinks Dawn is a more valuable member of the team than most of the potentials were prior to becoming slayers
--blamed herself for Chloeís death, a lot
--isnít sure if she should
--kinda thinks Chloe was too weak anyway
--blames Buffy for Chloeís death, too
--laughed herself silly when Willow told her the story of "penis-demon" from the Doublemeat Palace.
--had a serious talk with Willow about not turning evil if she should die like Tara did
--thinks she would turn seriously evil herself if anyone hurt Willow
--used the stuck up brat faÁade to cover her own feelings of otherness
--mostly reads Robert Parker mysteries for Hawk
--is embarrassed to tell Willow how many women sheís actually been with
--loves Willowís naivete about lesbian culture
--now thinks of herself as Willowís Prince Charming in her fantasies
--hated late night gossip sessions with the potentials, was more interested in being a part of the research and planning gang
--hates most things "girly"
--sometimes wears skirts just to see the dramatic effect it has on people who donít see her in them very often
--wonders why Willow came back from L.A. much more attentive than before
--didnít ask
--knows that many of the new slayers want to go back to their old lives, but she doesnít
--but she thinks she might take Willow to meet her folks
--plans to tell them everything: slayer, witch, apocalypse averted, everything
--will not cry when finally saying goodbye as the gang splits up
--has more things pierced than just her tongue
--is trying to talk Willow into getting matching tattoos where no one will see them
--feels fairly passionately, now that the world isnít going to end, about fighting for gay rights (especially marriage, because she hopes to marry Willow some day)
--plans to take Willow to her first Gay Pride Parade
--has asked spike if they can ride his motorcycle in that parade
--watched every episode of "Ellen" after the big coming out
--doesnít care so much about "Will & Grace"
--stopped swearing like a sailor when she first heard Willow saying things like "nifty"
--canít eat a peach without giggling at the memories of a very drunken night out with friends during high school
--surprised herself when she discovered how much she enjoys going to plays
--played volleyball and soccer in her high school
--always wished the cheerleaders would cheer for womenís sports, too
--cause she slept with two of them
--making "But Iím a Cheerleader" one of her favorite gay-themed films
--almost got kicked out of high school (a private school) for falling way behind in math and science
--but got great grades in English and Phys Ed
--is more upset that Amanda died in the big battle than Anya
--blames herself for the deaths of all the slayers who she considered undertrained
--feels less animosity towards Buffy because of it
--is really proud of Vi and Ronaís fighting in that last battle
--had her heart broken once before by a red head
--has always "set the terms" since then
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That's really cool, Ty -- HonorH, 07:15:18 08/05/03 Tue
And the thing is, you can really embroider around the edges of Kennedy because we ultimately saw so little of her. I can just imagine her taking Willow to a Gay Pride Parade.
The only thing I'd add is: "is fully aware she's more in love with Willow than Willow is with her."
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Re: That's really cool, Ty -- Tyreseus, 12:10:11 08/05/03 Tue
Thanks. I agree with your addition, and now that you mention it, does anyone else feel a strange echo of Buffy/Riley in that relationship?
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Now that you mention it, yeah I do -- Scroll, 18:41:08 08/06/03 Wed
Both Kennedy and early-Riley had that Can-Do attitude. They kind of steamrolled Willow and Buffy into new, less-intense relationships after losing their One True Loves. Kennedy and Riley both had bad breaks, I think, because given more time for Willow and Buffy to grieve, they might've been more willing to throw themselves into a relationship and give back as much as they got.
Well, maybe Kennedy and Willow will still work it out. They've at least got a chance whereas Riley and Buffy crashed and burned.
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Great job. -- Sophist, 07:40:43 08/05/03 Tue
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*My* Kennedy -- HonorH, 14:24:04 08/09/03 Sat
--knows she's a brat, and furthermore does not care
--seriously doesn't care what *you* think of her
--does care what Willow thinks
---and Buffy
----though she'd never admit it
--is awed by absolutely no one
---except Willow there at the end
--hated high school
---hated especially the perky blond cheerleadery types who only acted like her friends because she was rich
----savors the memory of seducing the bitchiest one of them in an empty locker room after school
--never thought much about being rich--her family had money, and that was that
--loved her parents
---though she rarely got along with her mother
--loved her Watcher dearly
---even though they argued a lot
----and misses her terribly
--hates wearing dresses with a fiery passion
---would wear one if Willow wanted her to
--is aware she's totally whipped by Willow
---finds it to be a completely new sensation
----kinda likes it
--likes how practical Xander is
---but is jealous of how well he knows Willow
--thinks Dawn's one cool kid
---would've gone for her if she'd been just a year older
--actually does respect Buffy
---but would never let that stand in the way of speaking her mind
--never knew what to make of Giles
--was uncomfortable around Spike
--liked Anya because Anya, too, spoke her mind
--never understood why they kept Andrew around
--blamed herself for Chloe's death
--thought Faith was sex on a stick, even when Faith told her to back off
---actually, *especially* when Faith told her to back off
--really cared about the other Potentials, and felt responsible for them, since she was the oldest
--loves Willow
---is aware Willow doesn't love her
----but will take what she can get, for as long as she can get it
--is a carpe diem kind of girl
[>
My Riley -- ponygirl, 08:35:17 08/03/03 Sun
'Cause I really don't hate the guy:
My Riley:
- never told his parents he left the army, even though he called them once a week
- felt a little ill every time he cashed his army pension cheques
- got along really well with Tara
- had a bunch of guys at the college that he played basketball with regularly. They never asked him why he sometimes disappeared or why he would show up with bruises. He wished they would even though he wouldn't have told them.
- wondered once how things would have gone if he'd asked out Willow instead of Buffy
- liked Xander, but felt sorry for him
- was freaked out by Anya
- the first time he killed a demon in Belize, he wondered what its plan was, what it was doing there, and if it had a name. The second time he killed a demon he didn't wonder any of those things.
- always remembered Buffy's birthday, even after he left
- never understood why Forrest didn't like Buffy
- still reads Psychology Today
- always opens doors for women, except during a firefight
- didn't really think Spike was the Doctor, but would have killed him if Buffy asked.
- had a crush on Maggie Walsh
- was very disappointed when he found out that it was Faith in Buffy's body because he had thought he was finally reaching Buffy emotionally.
- wasn't bad in bed but worried that Buffy thought he was
- keeps a list in his head of friends who have died
- never looked back when he left Sunnydale, not even once.
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I like your Riley. -- HonorH, 11:14:42 08/03/03 Sun
Looks quite a bit like my Riley, actually. Nice guy, if a bit baffled by the vagaries of fate.
[>
My Wesley -- Gyrus, 12:49:47 08/03/03 Sun
This looks like fun!
My Wesley:
--loves the wrong people, hates the wrong people, and knows it
--is a little fuzzy on how he got here
--has no idea where heís going
--isnít sure it matters
--believes knowledge is power
--knows intellect isnít everything
--still watches Wheel of Fortune with a cup of hot cocoa
--doesnít know how to apologize
--doesnít expect anyone else to apologize
--secretly admires Gunn for doing so much with so little
--believes admiration is a sign of weakness
--hates his own sense of loyalty
--sometimes finds himself in the Zone
--is sometimes nowhere near the Zone
--hasnít given his family his home phone number
--wonders if heíll ever have friends again
--wonders if Justine should have cut a little deeper
--wonders if his story has a moral
[> [>
Eeexcellent! -- HonorH, 19:47:33 08/03/03 Sun
Lots in common with my Wesley--especially the part where he knows he loves the wrong people. Ain't it the truth? Spike had nothing on Wesley for being Love's Bitch.
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Umm...what does this mean? -- Rhysdux, 03:05:57 08/05/03 Tue
--sometimes finds himself in the Zone
--is sometimes nowhere near the Zone
I don't know what the Zone is.
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The Zone -- Gyrus, 10:36:23 08/05/03 Tue
"The Zone" is a term athletes sometimes use to describe a state of peak performance and total mental focus. (Psychologists sometimes call it the "flow state".) Wesley seems to drop into and out of the Zone a lot, in that he sometimes does absolutely amazing things (ex. his neat disarm of Angel's abductors in "The Ring" back in S1), but he can't perform at that level all the time.
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Thank you, Gyrus! -- Rhysdux, 17:52:44 08/05/03 Tue
[>
My Buffy -- Kate, 19:04:17 08/03/03 Sun
My Buffy:
-secretly pigs out after solo patrols
-does miss the smell of old books in the high school library, but will never, even under penalty of death, admit it to Giles
-still forgets in certain moments that her mother is dead
-but wears her motherís perfume to keep something of her alive
-loves Dawn more than she can possibly put into words, but canít always connect with her
-canít fathom her life without Willow and Xander, no matter how far apart they might drift
-in spite of the numerous complaints, especially early on, a large part of her has always loved the power and responsibility of her calling
-and is grateful to her calling for making her a better person
-will always have a connection with Angel, but may never have a life with him
-was on the verge of something new with Spike, but wonít mare the memory of his noble actions by regretting what might have been
-weeps for the possible ìwhat ifsî that could have been between her and Faith if they had both done things differently those first months of knowing each other
-will struggle with her new found freedom and loss of the title ëChosen Oneí
-will always hold a special place in her heart for Tara, making it forever difficult to accept someone new in Willowís life
-secretly revels in the knowledge that Xander has never left
-while buried deeply, still has hope that one day her father will come back into her life and beg for her forgiveness
-but never worries if it doesnít happen because Gilesí love is more than enough to fill that place in her life
-will never give up her love of shopping no matter how much of a hero she is
-unapologetically loves being a blonde (real or not)
-mourns the loss of the larger sized breasts she had in high school
-will accomplish something wonderful with her life, in addition to being the slayer, even if it takes years to do so
[> [>
Funny--that's my Buffy, too! -- HonorH, 19:46:06 08/03/03 Sun
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one of these makes me wonder... -- anom, 19:54:46 08/03/03 Sun
"-but wears her motherís perfume to keep something of her alive"
...have we ever seen Buffy wearing any of her mother's jewelry since Joyce died? Or her clothes, even if the fit & style don't quite suit her (OK, that seems less likely)? Or has Dawn?
I know I feel I'm carrying something of my mother's presence when I wear something of hers, whether there's a particular occasion when I want to wear it for that reason or whether I chose it just because it's nice or goes w/what else I'm wearing. I remember panicking a little the 1st time I thought I'd lost 1 of her earrings, & crying a little the 1st time I actually did. I've been wearing her watch almost every day for >2 years, but I still think of it as her watch. I can certainly imagine Buffy or Dawn feeling the same way.
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ooh, these are nifty!, Keep them coming.. -- jane, 20:10:53 08/03/03 Sun
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I agree! These are all so great and so true... -- Kate, 22:53:46 08/03/03 Sun
And writing them is a blast. If you haven't, you definitely should!!
Great idea HonorH. And I'm so psyched to know that someone else also sees "my" Buffy. I, in return, utterly adore your Dawn; she, coincidently, greatly resembles mine. :)
[>
My Dawn... -- ZachsMind, 23:15:03 08/03/03 Sun
My Dawn:
Exists temporally, meaning there is an alternate temporal reality in which she is real.
Is an energy ball, but the form the ball has been hidden behind is based on a template in a near identical alternate universe.
Wasn't MADE by the magic spell of those monks, so much as changed to accomodate this alternate variant.
Has caused a minor upset in temporal physics by her very presence in both realities, and this is something that'll cause trouble some years down the road, but we'll probably never see the results.
Has incredibly vivid memories about what happened the first four years that she didn't exist in the tv show.
Was just as oblivious to Buffy's true calling as Joyce was through most of season one.
Was in elementary school during season one, so the only times she affects Buffy's subjective reality were when Buffy was home. Dawnie wasn't involved with Buffy's slaying in season one.
Went to Daddy with Buffy the following summer, and came back just as pent up, but it's because she believed to have figured out the real reason why Hank left Joyce - another woman. (see "When She Was Bad.")
Was not believed by Buffy when she told her, but it was part of what fueled Buffy's catharsis when she pulverized The Master's bones, and its what Buffy was referring to when she was talking to Webster in CwDP about how she thought her daddy was seeing another woman. She thinks that because Dawn witnessed it and told her.
Came with Joyce to the parent/teacher conference in "School Hard" because Joyce couldn't find a babysitter. This was the first time Dawn got an indication that Buffy was back to her old ways.
Dressed up as a ballerina for Halloween in season two - the costume didn't come from Ethan Rayne.
Spent most of the evening running away from little children dressed as demons and monsters.
Was saved by military Xander, and fancied him a bit.
Learned about Buffy's Slayerness when Joyce was dating Ted the robot.
Witnessed (overheard) Ted threaten Buffy during minigolf, cuz she was being nosy.
Settled her differences with Buffy temporarily and called a truce during that time, because they found a mutual enemy in Ted,
Covered for Buffy and helped her take Ted down, because Buffy confided in her about the Slayer thing.
For the rest of season two (until Joyce found out) Dawn often used her knowledge against Buffy, threatening to tattle on her if Buffy didn't do her chores and be nice to her and stuff.
First _really_ noticed Xander during "Halloween," and fell in love with him at first sight. Although she'd seen him before that and always thought he was cool.
Was immune to Xander's spell in "B,B&B" because she was already obsessively in love with him at the time. In fact, that last bit in the basement? Dawnie was WITH Cordy & Xander at the end, trying to fend the other women off.
Has to be reminded of her green energy ball origins.
Knows she's not real but being real feels more real than not being real does.
Gets a headache when she tries to think about it, so doesn't.
Crushed on Xander first, and Spike later. She never crushed on Oz, because she thought he was stuck up.
Thinks Willow's lesbian tendencies are adorable.
Is thankful Willow finally came out of the closet.
Knew Willow was gay when she was a sophomore because of how she dressed.
Hasn't a gay bone in her body but sees nothing wrong with it for others.
Thinks as little as possible about Andrew, and finds him too dorky to be a love interest.
Liked Riley until he went away without saying goodbye.
Thinks Angel was cool until he turned into Angelus, and recalls that Angelus tried to kill her too, though she's sketchy on the details.
When Angel got his soul back, Dawn never trusted him again.
Thinks Giles is a stuffy old man who smells funny.
Thinks Buffy's an idiot because Xander's the best guy in her life.
Secretly hopes Buffy never realizes that.
Still wants Xander to herself, even with the eyepatch.
Felt betrayed when Xander chose to be with Anya.
Never liked Anya, but didn't wish her dead.
Tolerated Anya because it's what Xander wanted.
Will wait a few weeks after the cratering of Sunnydale before she makes her move, even though she's still jail bait.
Has spoken with Willow about what happened during season six since her return from UK, but we the audience were never privy to their private conversation. This is just as well, because nothing was really resolved: Dawn lied through her teeth about it all.
Resents Willow for getting her arm broken, and for threatening to make her unreal, when she went Dark.
Knows Willow was not herself, under considerable strain, and suffering from the intoxication of overwhelming evil power, but she was still ticked off.
Speaks to Willow only because she believes Tara would have wanted her to forgive Willow.
Privately wishes it had been Willow and not Tara.
Lied through her teeth to Willow about her real feelings, and plans to never tell her how she really feels.
Knows Tara would never have turned dark.
When she threatened to kill Spike? She was bluffing.
Made a conscious point to never be alone with Spike after the attempted rape, and didn't want to make amends with him.
NEVER liked Anya. Pretended to like her. NEVER will.
Doesn't vividly recall the time at the Bronze with RJ cuz she was under the influence of a spell at the time. However, she still has those clothes.
Loves Buffy even and especially when she hates her. Their constant bickering is their way of showing one another how much they care.
Resents being overprotected.
Resents that Buffy got "chosen" and she didn't.
Fantasizes about patting her sister on the head and otherwise rubbing in the fact she's taller.
Privately embarrassed that her boobs are bigger.
Still believes that WAS Joyce in CwDP and nothing will convince her otherwise.
Privately believes she should have been the champion. If she's really a green energy ball and not real like they said, Buffy should have chosen her and not Spike, and believes that's what her mom was talking about.
Thinks she danced better than Buffy did when Sweets came to visit, and thinks Buffy was singing off key.
Did ask Buffy if Joyce was in heaven with her, but Buffy wouldn't say, claiming she doesn't remember actual memories - just impressions and feelings.
Knows her Dad was seeing another woman, and that's the real reason why he divorced her Mom. She knows this because she saw them, during the summer between seasons one and two. Buffy never believed her, until several years later when she was talking with Webster. This is part of why Buffy was so cathartic about destroying The Master's bones.
Resented the Potentials taking over the house, but took it like a martyr.
Felt a bit guilty about despising the lot of them most of the time, but didn't let it bother her much.
Still loves Xander.
[> [>
Re: My Dawn... -- HonorH, 07:14:24 08/04/03 Mon
Funny how our lists match up and don't, but both just might be Dawn.
Oh, and my Dawn? Meant every word of her threat to Spike.
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Re: My Dawn... -- ZachsMind, 09:14:50 08/04/03 Mon
I'm reminded of the scene at the end of Marathon Man. If Spike had ever forced Dawnie into that position, it woulda gone down sorta kinda like that, with Dawnie in Hoffman's shoes and Spike in Olivier's.
[>
My Giles -- Darby, 11:24:34 08/04/03 Mon
My Giles -
- Knows that being a Watcher - specifically, being Buffy's Watcher - is his true calling.
- But still resents his family for forcing it on him.
- Wishes he had forgiven his father for that before his death.
- Saw more of himself in Willow than any other Scoob, but refused to acknowledge the possible down side of that.
- Does not see himself in Spike, although everyone else does.
- Never really liked young people before Sunnydale.
- Only partly regrets not having his own family, because he still can't see himself with young children.
- Envies Xander's self-acceptance and quick wit.
- Regrets not having the physical gifts to really challenge Buffy as a trainer...
- and resents Riley somewhat for having those gifts.
- Has never really liked Angel (even without Angelus) - and likes him less every year.
- Is very happy that every Watcher he's met is somehow not as good as he is.
- Feels that the turning of Faith was his failure alone.
- ...and resents Angel for pulling her back.
- Feels that every negative feeling Joyce had toward him was at least partly justified.
- Still dreams of that night on the police car.
- Occasionally has very disturbing dreams about each of the girls, and is embarrassed around them afterwards.
- At one point loved Quentin Travers as a father figure.
- Cannot totally get past the fact that Dawn isn't real.
- Doesn't really believe that Buffy was in Heaven.
- Is sometimes astounded at how deeply he loves Buffy, Willow, and Xander.
- Feels that he would have made a good teacher.
- Knows more about computers than he has ever let on.
- Misses Ethan. More than Olivia.
- Sometimes feels that the decision to go back to England was made by someone other than him.
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Re: My Giles -- Nice, 07:40:05 08/05/03 Tue
I totally buy this. You've really captured the ambiguity of his feelings (at least, as I perceive them).
I'm a bit confused by this one, though: "Doesn't really believe that Buffy was in Heaven." Why wouldn't he?
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Giles and Heaven -- Darby, 14:58:33 08/05/03 Tue
I just see Giles as very cynical about Heavens and Hells.
And he has never seen Buffy as being very discerning about that aspect of the supernatural - she was somewhere she could be pulled back from, and it wasn't a place of torment, but I feel that Giles would be suspicious of the whole experience. Kinda the way we were when Joyce appeared to Buffy, seeming all loving and helpful...
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Your Giles is mine, too. -- dream, who misses Giles so much it's embarassing, 08:09:09 08/06/03 Wed
[>
My Angel -- Masq, 14:13:46 08/04/03 Mon
My Angel...
- doesn't give a fuck if you're tired of him brooding. "It's none of your business. Get out of my face."
- still has a curse on his soul.
- is really sick and tired of having a curse on his soul.
- knows that he and Angelus are the just different sides of the same person, himself.
- has a sense of ethics so strong he'll never forgive himself for his dark side, ever, even though he should ("forgiveness isn't given because it's earned, but because it's needed" - Giles, IOHEFY).
- is an insecure dork. Deal with it.
- compensates for his dorkiness by spending hours on his hair, body, and clothes. And kicking bad-guy butt.
- loves kicking bad-guy butt. Loves it. Loves looking good doing it.
- thinks compensating for dorkiness by being a vain butt-kicking hero is a step up from compensating by being an immature womanizing lay-about.
- thinks the coolest thing about being a vampire is skulking around in the shadows, spying on people, and disappearing into thin air.
- has every incarnation of "Batman" in comics and on DVD.
- can't actually operate his DVD player.
- loves opera because it's melodramatic
- always has a bookmark in one book or another
- likes dogs and horses.
- hates pig's blood, but drinks it anyway.
- misses Darla despite everything.
- has an undeniable attraction to Lilah, but would never give her the satisfaction of saying so.
- will always love Buffy, and worry about her.
- secretly ponders what Buffy and Spike did in bed, and can't decide whether to put his hands under the covers or scream and then puke. Or both.
- doesn't hate Spike. He just can't be bothered with him.
- is glad he has friends, but will stutter if forced to admit it.
- misses his son, and is starting to regret the choice he made.
- isn't going to undo the choice he made with Connor, nevertheless.
- no longer spends much time thinking about the so-called "Powers that Be" one way or another.
- is always looking over his shoulder at the former Wolfram and Hart.
[> [>
Love your Angel! -- HonorH, 18:21:02 08/04/03 Mon
Quite a bit like mine. Oh, and here's Kita's just in case you were wondering:
All About Angel
I like hers, too.
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nice, masq! so many conflicting/conflicted sides to him -- anom, 18:23:15 08/04/03 Mon
But I especially like the lines about Batman & the DVD player!
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That is a great Angel!! -- Kate, 19:48:02 08/04/03 Mon
- has every incarnation of "Batman" in comics and on DVD.
- can't actually operate his DVD player.
Those are my two favorites. You definitely managed to beautifully capture the dichotomy that is Angel. He *is* a wonderful, gorgeous, butt-kicking spazz! I think your Angel's pretty nifty.
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Damn but this is fun! Okay... MY Angel... -- ZachsMind, 20:07:53 08/04/03 Mon
My Angel...
Went just outside a catholic church the night he learned Joyce died, politely and patiently got the attention of a priest, gave the priest a donation for the church, and asked him to light a candle in her honor. He has done this once every year since her passing, on the anniversary of her death. He does this alone. No one else knows about it. Not even Buffy.
Loved Casablanca.
Hated Breakfast at Tiffanys.
Loved The Godfather.
Hated Deliverance.
Loved Raging Bull.
Kinda liked Rocky but not really.
Has been at least a little depressed every Christmas since he got his soul back.
Has never regretted the tatoo.
Loves Buffy's brain. Misses talking to Buffy. Misses the banter. He's as much in awe at just how her brain works as he is in her physical presence, or the fact she can benchpress him under the table.
Appreciated the cookie speech more than he showed and more than most people in the audience ever wood, understood exactly what she meant, and fell in love with her all over again with those words.
Thinks about Buffy at least once a day. Every day. Without fail.
Loves all comic books. Everything from Superman to Richie Rich, but will never admit it.
Loves Frank Sinatra music, and the man.
Hates Dean Martin's singing, but admired the guy.
Loved Sammy Davis Junior, and talked more with him than any of the others.
Really wanted to bite Jerry Lewis just to shut the guy up.
LOVED. And I mean LOVED Manchurian Candidate.
Hated Oceans Eleven, but never had the balls to tell the Chairman.
Hated the recent remake even more.
Loved the Mary Tyler Moore Show.
Hated That Girl.
Would choose Wilma over Betty.
Preferred Daphne over Velma.
Still laughs at Droopy, but hates Woody Woodpecker.
Prefers Daffy Duck to Bugs Bunny.
Lied to Xander when he said he couldn't resusitate Buffy. Why? Cuz if he failed to bring her back to life, he didn't want that on his conscience. If Xander had failed, he would have been able to blame Xander, instead of being mad at himself for not being able to face The Master himself.
Never liked Xander. Never will like Xander.
Really respected and appreciated Willow and has always thought she was cool, although not incredibly attractive (not his type). In fact is thankful that fate has kinda made her the foremost authority on his souling situation. Seems fitting.
Wishes he could patch things up with Dawnie, but Angelus ruined that. (post season four. Of course you and I know nothing happened between them because Dawnie wasn't there but they both remember otherwise now)
Likes lightning bugs.
Could take or leave fireworks.
Is not usually consciously aware just how his brooding affects others.
Unconsciously does it as much for attention as anything.
Wouldn't care if friends tire of him brooding. Insists they accept him as he is.
Pretty much accepts his friends as they are. Well, most of the time.
Honestly never gets a moment's peace.
Is haunted by the deaths for which he (as Angelus) has been responsible.
Doesn't see this as irrational at all. Though not in his right mind when it happened, they died by his hand, so he accepts responsibility.
Sympathized with Holtz but what he did with Connor wasn't quite 'turnabout being fair play.'
Has a curse on his soul, but only because Angel & Angelus both believe in it. Kinda like how some magicks only work if you have faith that they will.
Would turn to dust if ever cured of his vampirism, so perhaps faith in a gypsy curse is for the best.
Is a split personality. Angelus & Angel are really the same guy, but to maintain sanity, he's compartmentalized his psyche. This is because the resouling by the gypsies was a VERY traumatic experience, and quite literally the worst possible form of torment that could be put upon Angelus.
Has more than two personalities, but we rarely see the other ones. Not even Angel is consciously aware of them.
Makes a terrible boyfriend. For anybody.
Has a bond with Buffy that transcends words, but isn't necessarily as romantic as much of the audience imagines. They also met too soon.
Is going to someday be milk to Buffy's cookies, potentially, but neither of them are there yet.
Is a dork.
Is vain.
Is self-absorbed.
Doesn't know these things.
Plays over and over again in his mind, in occasional moments of solitude, that memory when Frank Sinatra almost gave Angel direct eye contact. It's a fleeting, empty moment, but at the same time it was JUST SO COOL!
Wishes he could share that moment with someone, but fears no one would ever understand.
Is afraid to find out if Buffy would understand.
If she didn't understand, he could never face her again. No. Really. He couldn't. So he just doesn't tell anybody. This whole mindf*** he's done to himself is almost a third as much torture as the gypsy curse has been, and he does it to himself. (this is all apocryphal, because Angel will NEVER admit it, so it'll never get incorporated into the story).
Kicks bad guy butt cuz bad guy butt is just there.
Kicks bad guy butt cuz it's fun.
Kicks bad guy butt cuz it's his duty.
Kicks bad guy butt cuz Buffy kicks bad guy butt.
Kicks bad guy butt cuz it's like keeping her presence alive near him, even if they can't be together.
Kicks bad guy butt cuz it's either that or going back to back alleys and sucking on rats. Which sucked.
Kicks bad guy butt to convince himself he's a good guy.
Needs a LOT of convincing.
Would deep down just as soon be a drunk layabout good for nothing, because he knows he doesn't deserve better, and it's also less effort.
Thinks being a champion gives his pathetic excuse for existence purpose.
Contemplates suicide about once a month or so.
Used to contemplate it every day, until he saw Buffy.
Knows Buffy's mom was right, "you and Buffy are from different worlds," and had major respect and appreciation for just how Joyce handled that whole thing. That took class.
Skulks around in the shadows cuz the alternative is being a crispy critter - he doesn't necessarily like it.
Allows himself, on rare occasion, to acknowledge that it can be cool.
Loves intimidating people, and would probably do it even if he weren't a vampire.
Wants to feel the sun on his face very much. It's one of the things that won him over when Lilah was convincing him to stay with W&H. (watch the season finale again. The look on his face when he was in a sunny room and didn't start burning. He was in awe.)
Is a bit of the voyeur. It's a weakness. He's been a peeping Tom since childhood.
Has seen every Batman movie. Digs the animated series when he can catch it. Would collect Batman comic books religiously if he had the money and time.
Has one Bob Kane collectible comic book in a bag and hidden in the hotel. Doesn't tell anybody. A quiet appreciation for Batman is something Angel & Angelus have in common.
Doesn't have a blinking 12:00 on his VCR only because he has friends.
Is about as good with electronics like media players as Ozzy Osbourne.
Loves opera.
Loves theater.
Loves ballet.
Loves football, and cars, and a lot of things that he doesn't often indulge in, because he also hates them - they remind him of what he can't be and can't do.
Wishes he could sing.
Wishes he could dance.
Wishes he were really as cool as other people think he is.
Sometimes thinks he's more a dork than Wesley.
Will never admit that.
Has read more books that he never finished than books that he has.
Often reads halfway through a book, skips to the last couple chapters, and doesn't finish the rest. He then pretends to have read the entire book.
Has mixed feelings about animals. He likes them but many growl at him or get skittish. So it's a love hate kinda thing.
Hated pig's blood at first but has grown to like it, although metaphorically, it's not unlike drinking diluted, flat, diet cola.
Misses Connor despite everything.
Would do Lilah, prior to learning that Wesley had.
Has no overwhelming attraction to Lilah, but would only have kicked her out of bed after she said something particularly insensitive and foul.
Will always think of Buffy when in the throes of passion with anybody else. He's kind of an idiot that way.
Tries very hard not to ponder about Buffy & Spike but it's kinda like rubbernecking at an accident on the side of the road. What were they thinking!??
Wasn't worried for a second. He knows it couldn't last.
Hates Spike.
Loves his friends.
Was only in love with Cordy because in a strange way she reminded him of Buffy. He never properly loved Cordy for herself.
Misses his son, but until he sees evidence to the contrary, believes he made the right decision for him, because Angel proved to himself that he was incapable of giving Connor an environment free of the crap and bad karma that follows Angel around. See the childhood scene in Citizen Kane to see where I'm coming from there.
Spends a lot of time contemplating about the so-called "Powers that Be" and wishes he could give the bastards a piece of his mind but knows it'd do no effin' good.
Trusts Wolfram & Hart about as far as he can throw the building, and is only playing along cuz at the moment it's the best and only option available to him, but realizes he's sleeping in a bed of scorpions and snakes.
Will only let down his guard when the writers decide it's necessary for purposes of plot development. *smirk*
[>
My Anya (pre-"Chosen" profile) -- cjl, 20:11:08 08/04/03 Mon
* Does not remember her parents. It doesn't bother her...
* ...except when she thinks of Joyce
* Believe it or not, didn't stay angry at Olaf for his infidelities...
* ...but never considered removing the troll spell
* OTOH, hates the villagers of Sjornjost to this day (they mocked her for being "different")
* Frigtened to death of D'Hoffryn
* Loves D'Hoffryn like a father, but would never tell anyone (not even Halfrek)
* Halfrek was her only friend for over a thousand years
* Still wishes she'd died instead of Halfrek in Selfless
* Still proud of her artistry as a vengeance demon
* Love/hate relationship with food
* Hates picking out clothes
* Doesn't think about money anymore
* Sings in the shower (everybody gathers around the bathroom door to listen)
* Does not understand why Xander left her at the altar; deep down, thinks it's her fault, even though he tells her otherwise
* Loves Xander passionately, wonders if he feels the same
* Turned on by Spike
* Turned on by Giles (a little)
* Turned on by Willow (juuuuuuuuuuuuust a little)
* Thinks Andrew is adorable (like a pet turtle)
* Resents having to depend on Buffy for protection
* Wants children, but knows she may never have them
[>
My Angel (a riff off Masq's Angel) -- Scroll, 20:47:33 08/04/03 Mon
I agree with every one of Masq's points, so just tack on the following to get my Angel:
- loves Buffy and thinks about her every day
- still hurts over not being with Buffy
- but not as badly as he used to
- hopes in some secret part of him that they will one day live happily ever after
- doesn't have much faith it will ever happen
- loves Dawn
- but has a hard time being around her for long periods of time because she reminds him so much of his sister, Kathy
- knows Dawn stopped trusting him after he nearly killed her in Season 2 (off-screen)
- doesn't blame her
- respects Giles
- respects Oz
- loves Willow
- resents Xander
- but respects him anyway
- hates Riley
- hates Spike
- and loves him
- but only in that obligatory way one loves annoying family members
- still feels incredibly guilty about Drusilla
- misses her terribly
- loves her more than he will ever admit to any of his human friends
- wonders if he could ever bring himself to kill her as he knows he should
- loves Cordelia and Wesley more than Gunn and Fred
- feels more comfortable around Lorne than Gunn and Fred
- secretly enjoys how much Fred reminds him of Drusilla
- refuses to feel guilty over any of this
- hates Wesley for what he did to Connor
- loves Wesley for what he tried to do for Connor
- has upon occasion fantasised about making Wesley pay for what he did to Connor
- would never, ever act on his fantasies
- values Wesley's good opinion of him more than anyone else, except Buffy and Connor
- secretly resents the fact that Wesley never came crawling back to him
- loved Cordelia
- misses Cordelia
- doesn't have much hope Cordelia will ever wake up
- wonders if he will ever have a friend as well-matched for him as Cordelia
- wonders if she was really in love with him
- wonders why he wasn't more in love with her
- still lights a candle every year on Doyle's birthday
- still drinks to his memory on the anniversary of his death
- still calls Harry for short, awkward chats because he feels it's his duty
- still can't bring himself to visit Doyle's mom because he can't look her in the eye
- still gets togther for coffee with Kate sometimes
- thinks she would make a nice addition to the team
- won't ask her because her life is finally getting back to normal and he won't disrupt that
- loves Faith
- like a sister
- but still thinks she's hotter than sin
- and Buffy
- thinks she's still as dangerous as fuck
- likes that about her
- would sleep with her but knows better not to
- has jerked off to the memory of the taste of her blood
- feels only a little guilty about it
- because he knows she would get off on it too
- thinks Lilah is hot
- thinks Lilah and Wesley together is hot
- resents Lilah for getting Wesley
- empathises with Wesley's feelings for Lilah
- loves Connor more than anything in the world
- misses him terribly
- wishes he could "swallow the day"
- fears that doing so wouldn't really change anything and that Connor would still end up hating him and self-destructing
- sometimes wonders where Lindsey got himself to
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My Dawn (a riff on HonorH's Dawn) -- Scroll, 21:17:13 08/04/03 Mon
Okay, so I'm not original. Just as my Angel is pretty much like Masq's Angel, my Dawn is pretty much like HonorH's Dawn. Hope you don't mind, HH, but I cut-and-pasted a few of your points and inserted my own ideas wherever they fit best:
--has crushed on the following: Xander, Oz, Spike, a dozen or so Generic Middle School Boys, one or two Generic High School Boys, Tara, and Faith
--thinks Andrew might have had a crush on her
--really hopes so
--even though she would never, ever date him
--ever
--never really liked Angel
--and never trusted him after he nearly killed her in Season 2 (off-screen)
--but was, and still is, incredibly fascinated by him
--felt incredibly creeped out when she discovered he sometimes stalked her when she snuck out at night
--and felt incredibly comforted at the same time
--never suspected just how many times he saved her without her even being aware she was in danger
--hopes he and Buffy can make it someday anyway
--liked Riley
--but saw the breakup coming a mile away
--hates Sam on principle even though she thinks Sam's kinda nice
--occasionally obsesses about her origins and wonders if there really is a point to her existence
--and tries to figure out if she can make a point
--wasn't kidding about that Junior Watcher thing
--wishes Giles was her father
--even though she knows Buffy is his favourite
--sometimes wishes Xander was, too
--wants a Xander of her own someday
--has never really gotten over Willow going evil
--or Spike nearly raping Buffy
--would kill him in an instant if he ever tried to rape Buffy again
--doesn't really understand what happened between them
--isn't sure she really wants to
--really wishes she could've been friends with Spike again before the end
--is glad she finally got around to liking Anya
--is surprised by just how much she misses her
--loves Buffy more than anything
--sometimes hates her, too
--resents being overprotected
--even though she's just as protective of Buffy
--feels a bit smug that she's taller than Buffy
--feels even smugger that her boobs are bigger
--wants to ask Buffy if Mom was in heaven with her
--but is too scared
--misses Tara almost as much as she misses Mom
--likes to imagine Tara and Mom making pancakes in heaven
--wonders why the universe keeps taking her mother figures away from her
--wonders if the universe is punishing her
--wonders if her existence somehow pushed Dad away from Buffy
--tried to make the best of the house full of Potentials
--felt a bit guilty about despising the lot of them most of the time
--wanted to be one
--is glad she wasn't
--thinks that maybe, things will be all right after all
[> [>
My Wesley (boy, this is getting addictive!) -- Scroll, 22:23:49 08/04/03 Mon
There are a few inconsistencies. My Wesley's take on Cordelia and his take on Connor don't exactly mesh. Just pretend the mind-wipe never happened. That's what I'm gonna do :)
My Wesley:
- comes from a wealthy, influencial, upper-class family
- secretly likes the fact that if a few hundred members of the British tonne died, he'd be king
- secretly likes the fact that Lilah secretly likes this fact
- had never felt guilty for having so many advantages in life until he met Gunn
- resented his father for being a cold, controlling, unforgiving bastard
- fears he is destined to become just like his father
- has learned to live with that fear
- resented how much he wanted his father's approval and never got it
- but after losing Connor, didn't really give a fuck
- loved his mum
- wished she had stood up to his father more
- is grateful to his parents for his education
- was surprised to find he hadn't been cut from the will
- was angry and appalled when he found out about his parents' deaths
- (not to mention the destruction of the Watcher's Council)
- from Lilah
- and not Giles
- loves Fred
- is in love with Fred
- but not really as much as he pretends to be
- loves Cordelia
- even though he's still angry over her silence after Connor's kidnapping
- loves Gunn
- thinks he might have been in love with Gunn
- doubts Gunn ever felt the same way
- loves Angel
- knows with certainty that he was in love with Angel
- knows Angel never felt the same way
- knows Angel sometimes took him for granted
- doesn't really resent this
- loves Lilah
- is in love with Lilah
- pretends not to be
- nearly fooled himself into believing she means nothing to him and he means nothing to her
- is grateful that Angel understands all this
- knows Angel doesn't have much hope of Cordelia ever waking up
- knows Cordelia will wake up one of these days
- not out of faith in the greater design
- but because Wolfram & Hart is on the job
- feels regret over what happened to Connor
- but refuses to feel guilt
- knows intellectually that he did the best he could
- feels instinctively that he should've been able to do more
- wishes he had killed Holtz when he had the chance
- recognised a kindred spirit in Justine
- truly hopes she finds peace
- felt guilty over what happened to Faith
- but not so much any more
- knows intellectually that his part in her downfall wasn't as big as everybody makes out
- knows instinctively that it was big enough
- hopes she forgives him
- hopes she knows he's forgiven her
- even though she totally fucked him over and he still has scars and, yes, still gets very, very angry when he remembers what she did to him
- was even angrier at Angel for choosing to comfort her instead of him, when he had multiple stab wounds that she inflicted
- but has mostly forgiven Angel since then
- even though Angel continues to be oblivious to the fact that he needed forgiving
- is extremely claustrophobic
- is surprised that he didn't mind sharing this with Lilah
- sometimes wishes he had run away with Lilah to England
- but knows neither of them are the running type
- thinks Lilah was The One
- had their kids' names picked out
- will never, ever admit this
- not even to Lilah
[>
My Lindsey -- HonorH, 21:52:58 08/04/03 Mon
(just 'cause a Misunderstood!Lindsey writer is bugging me lately)
--knew exactly what he was getting into when he started working for Wolfram & Hart
---and what he wanted from them
----but not what they wanted from him
--knows the one place in L.A. where one can get really good grits
---would never, never have admitted that to anyone, least of all Lilah
--hated Lilah
---still wanted to sleep with her
--has done a lot of things even he would qualify as "rotten"
---might regret some of them
----but refuses to brood about it, because that would make him too much like Angel
-----whom he constantly tries to forget
------but fails to, since he doesn't really want to
--was, surprisingly enough, never abused as a child
---has occasionally claimed he was when the lie was to his advantage
--really tries to hate his father
---can't
--hates Angel for cutting off his hand
---even though he knows it was his own damn fault
--has had a lot of sex in his time
---but few girlfriends or boyfriends
----has had a few of each
--might have loved Darla
---definitely wanted her
----almost as much as he wanted Angel
--thinks Angel might have been the dumbest, most thick-headed jerk he ever met in his life
---still has a thing for him
--thinks he and Wesley could've gotten along pretty well if they'd been on the same side
---and didn't both have that thing for Angel
--knew Darla didn't want to be vamped again when he broke into the motel room with the goon squad
---told himself it didn't matter
----never believed it
--found Drusilla oddly attractive
--finds that he regrets how things went
--is definitely glad he got out of L.A.
---never looked back
--wonders if Angel misses his favorite punching bag
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. . . and my Buffy -- HonorH, 23:12:41 08/04/03 Mon
Just to round things out:
--wishes she could be a better daughter/sister/friend/lover/hero, even though she's done everything anyone could ask of her and more
--doesn't realize just how often she earned her power
--has never missed L.A.
---okay, maybe her favorite mall, a little
--wonders what her life was like without Dawn in it
--can't believe Dawn's now taller than she
---and has bigger boobs!
--doesn't regret losing her virginity to Angel. Not even a little.
---is aware she compares every other guy to him
----won't ever stop, either
--often thinks that if she just could've fallen in love with Xander at the outset, her life would've been a lot simpler
--despised Cordelia because she got to become Angel's friend
---and knows in her heart that Spike was right: she and Angel never will be friends
--is appalled at how long it took her to realize that she and Spike were sexually attracted to each other
--regrets how things ended with Riley
---but not *that* they ended
--isn't sure she ever completely warmed up to Anya
--took a long time to "get" Tara
---ended up loving Tara dearly
----and cried her eyes out at the funeral, clinging to Dawn and Xander
--will never, ever be able to wash the image of her mother's body off of the backs of her eyelids
--hasn't forgotten one thing about heaven, and the memories have lost none of their potency
--cannot believe her friends buried her in that butt-ugly dress
---has left strict instructions that next time she dies, she's to be buried in something she'd actually wear
----and that her grave be warded so that it can never be disturbed
-----is thinking cremation might actually be a simpler option
------as long as no one scatters her ashes over the Sunnydale Crater
--has decided she doesn't regret her affair with Spike, no matter how damaging it was, because without it, Spike might never have gotten his soul
---ponders the question of whether she really did love him
----knows with certainty that if she didn't, she could have
--hopes her burned hand will scar
--loves Angel in a way that no longer hurts
--loves Dawn with an intensity that frightens her
--loves Xander without reservation, because it's so easy to love him
--loves Willow uniquely, because they really understand each other now
--loves Giles more than she loves her own father
---has cried over that
--cringes every time she thinks of the cookie speech, and really hopes Angel understood
---knows he did
--has contemplated kissing that slut-red lipstick right off of Faith's mouth
---knows Faith would let her
----won't
--is almost certain she'll never get married
---hopes Dawn will
--carried the following with her into the final battle: a ring belonging to her mother, Tara's charm bracelet, and the silver cross Angel gave her
---can't believe she survived
--still thinks she'll die young
---hopes she really lives first
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I adore your Buffy! -- Scroll, 23:27:07 08/04/03 Mon
And thanks so much for posting this meme over here. It forced me to finally get some concrete points down about some of these characters. Everybody has such terrific ideas, even if I don't totally agree. Though I'm actually kinda surprised how many of these character profiles I do agree with.
[> [> [>
Re: . . . and my Buffy -- Tyreseus, 23:52:34 08/04/03 Mon
Value of lost work hours reading this board: $45
Taco Bell lunch to get back early enough to slip in a few "off-the-clock" minutes of the board: $8.75
--cannot believe her friends buried her in that butt-ugly dress
---has left strict instructions that next time she dies, she's to be buried in something she'd actually wear
----and that her grave be warded so that it can never be disturbed
-----is thinking cremation might actually be a simpler option
------as long as no one scatters her ashes over the Sunnydale Crater
Priceless.
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Very nice! -- ponygirl, 08:32:07 08/05/03 Tue
And thanks for starting this thread!
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Just tack that list right on to the end of mine!! :) I definitely know your Buffy. :) -- Kate, 12:19:13 08/05/03 Tue
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Re: My Lindsey -- Gyrus, 07:43:46 08/05/03 Tue
Cute. I especially like how Lindsey projects his homoerotic feelings for Angel onto Wesley.
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Re: My Lindsey -- Millan, 14:32:14 08/08/03 Fri
Lovely!
I don't agree with every little thing, but overall, I think you've nailed a large chunk of him.
*sniff*
I miss Lindsey!
/Millan
Excuse me. I'm on a case here, Lindsey. Does everything always have to be about killing you all the time?
Angel, 'Dead End'
[>
My Cordy -- Oyceter, 01:31:55 08/05/03 Tue
Joining in the fun...
My Cordy:
- loves Angel and Wesley fiercely
- would brain anyone who tried to hurt them
- isn't at all sorry about that
- then would go shoe shopping
- maybe with Lilah
- isn't at all sorry about that either
- doesn't really get Fred
- thinks romantic love is temporary insanity
- will never forgive Xander for hurting her
- but misses him still
- will never forgive Willow for hurting her
- doesn't miss her at all
- thinks Anya is Xander's cheap substitution for her
- thinks Buffy is a worthy rival
- though sometimes a really stupid one
- kept Doyle's tape
- watches it every so often
- and cries herself to sleep
- thinks she might have loved Doyle given the time
- really hates her hair sometimes
- attributes all saintliness to Jasmine's hidden influence
- still thinks of herself as Queen Bitch
- wonders sometimes if Angel and Wesley think she's shallow
- brushes those thoughts off
- desperately misses geeky Watcher Wesley
- finds dark new Wesley unbelievably sexy
- as well as vamped out Angel
- wishes she knew more about Gunn
- loved Groo mostly because he worshipped the ground she walked on
- sometimes regrets leaving Plrtz Glrb and her Princess-dom
- then remembers the smell
- hated Darla
- until she found out Angel had lied to her
- pitied Connor
- still can't look any of the Fang Gang in the eye
- doesn't let them know how much that hurts her
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Great stuff, Oyceter! -- Scroll, 03:09:47 08/05/03 Tue
I have to admit, I've totally lost all sense of Cordelia. Like I can't get my head around what makes her tick, after the past couple of seasons. But I really like your points. Glad you came out of lurkerdom to post this!
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Thanks! -- Oyceter, 16:54:23 08/05/03 Tue
I know what you mean... mostly I channel pre-S3 Cordy. And I miss her and her anti-tact truth-telling bits.
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Can I play too? My Xander -- Prosperina, 09:11:08 08/05/03 Tue
No one's contributed a Xander yet, so here's mine.
My Xander:
--took five years to realize that not all families were like his
--took another year to decide he didn't want Willow's family either
--then discovered television and kept waiting for the laugh track to kick in after he spoke
--was with Willow in the advanced reading group in second grade
--but fell behind in third grade, the year his dad worked the night shift and was home after school
--never caught up again
--always played at Jesse's house and never invited him to play at his house
--didn't feel self-conscious about that at all
--wouldn't know what Willow was talking about if he had overheard her telling Buffy that they had gone out when they were five
--totally remembers stealing her Barbie
--thought it was really funny until he noticed Willow was crying, then tried to apologize, but only made her angry
--was absolutely sure that Buffy was the person he had been waiting for his entire life
--knew that Buffy would fall deeply in love with him as soon as she knew him well
--still isn't sure why it didn't happen
--but looking back now, admits that he's kinda glad that nothing happened between him and Buffy
--felt guilty that he didn't miss Jesse more
--but had too many other things going on, so hasn't really thought about Jesse since graduation
--wanted Angel to like him when he first met him
--didn't know that Angel was ever jealous of him
--would have really, really liked to have heard about that
--honestly thought he was doing the right thing in ignoring Willow's crush
--was completely bewildered at the idea of Willow being an actual girl
--until she started dating Oz
--never loved Cordelia
--never appreciated her until he lost her
--thinks he could have loved her if she had given him another chance
--realizes that he gave up on Buffy before he gave up on Cordelia
--took several years to get Giles
--was glad he finally did
--accepted that he would never be Giles's favorite
--understands that Dawn never existed before
--doesn't truly believe it
--was babysitting Dawn the night she got her first period and had to take her to the drugstore to buy tampons
--still doesn't know it
--starting watching screwball comedies from the 30s and 40s after he met Anya
--moved onto musicals
--watched 'Singin' in the Rain' for the tenth time the night before he summoned Sweet
--secretly wanted to be Gene Kelly
--but changed his mind after wearing the sweater vest in 'This Year's Girl'
--fell in love with Anya - hard - after deciding that he was being too mean to her in the summer after the end of the Initiative
--walked around in a daze after, just kinda tingling
--didn't tell Anya how he felt for a while because he didn't occur to him that she'd want to know
--felt really stupid when he realized this
--never considered leaving Buffy or Willow or Sunnydale
--wouldn't leave partially because he didn't want to be left out
--made sure his parents left town before the end
--called them afterwards to tell them he was safe
--didn't tell them that Anya was dead
--doesn't really believe it yet
--knows he will soon
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Wow. Your Xander = my Xander. -- Gyrus, 10:31:40 08/05/03 Tue
I especially like the bit about Xander unknowingly helping Dawn buy feminine hygiene products.
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A few more -- Sophist, 10:43:34 08/05/03 Tue
--Loves reminiscing with Buffy and Willow about adventures of the past 7 years
--Except for the day they both realized the full extent of his lie in Becoming 2 and wouldn't speak to him for a week
--Still hasn't apologized, but they forgave him anyway
--Had a long talk with Dawn about how he hurt Anya
--Is glad he let Anya know it wasn't her fault
--Doesn't realize that no one else thinks he did
--Rarely thinks about his eye anymore
--Doesn't realize how much Buffy, Willow and Dawn respect him for that
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Re: A few more -- jane, 22:17:24 08/05/03 Tue
My Joyce:
--loves her daughters
--worries that she's a bad parent
--knows she's not
--wishes Buffy wasn't the Slayer
--is proud of Buffy's strength
--is glad Willow and Xander are Buffy's friends
--knows a hundred ways to get blood out of clothing
--is freaked out by that knowledge
--thought Angel was way too old and broody for Buffy
--even before she knew he was a vampire
--was relieved when he left
--ached for Buffy when he did
--likes Spike even though she knows she shouldn't
--enjoys talking about "Passions" with him
--hoped Riley would be a normal boyfriend for Buffy
--thinks Ripper/Giles is sexy
--would deny it
--has forgiven Hank, but not for abandoning his daughters
--understands Dawn isn't really hers
--knows Dawn really is hers
--is glad she's an independent career woman
--wishes she had someone to lean on
--would fight the whole world to protect her girls
--died way too young
--knows Buffy and Dawn will be fine
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oops. That should read "My Joyce" -- jane, 22:19:35 08/05/03 Tue
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My Fred -- Gyrus, 10:20:07 08/05/03 Tue
My Fred:
--has never loved anyone that she hasnít also been furiously angry with.
--is the only person she knows who calls her mom and dad on a regular basis.
--knows her metabolism is going to slow down someday, and is trying to enjoy it while it lasts.
--occasionally wonders if Cordelia warned her away from Angel because she wanted him for herself.
--dismisses that thought as paranoid.
--hasnít told anyone everything that happened to her in Pylea.
--is afraid people will see how crazy she still is inside.
--has in her mind a circuit diagram for a device that could fry Gwen Raiden with her own juice.
--has no plans to build it -- yet.
--knows Gunn is smarter than everyone thinks he is, but still not as smart as Wesley.
--wishes she could smoosh Gunn and Wesley together into one sweet, handsome, brainy guy.
--likes Lorne a lot, but still feels a twinge of fear when he first enters a room.
--wishes she could implant some kind of zapper in Angelís limbic system that would short-circuit his dangerous obsessiveness with the people he loves.
--was never very athletic, and the whole fighting thing scares her more than she lets on.
--finds that Gunn killing Professor Slidell leaves her with all of the guilt and none of the satisfaction.
--doesnít know if there was any satisfaction to be had, but canít forgive Gunn for not letting her find out for herself.
--believes that understanding how rainbows work doesnít make them any less beautiful.
--wishes there was an equation for peace.
[>
My Gwen (this is waaaaaaaay too addicitive) -- Kate, 12:38:50 08/05/03 Tue
My Gwen:
-anger, pity and understanding are the three strongest emotions she feels towards her parents
-relives that horrible first day at the special school her parents abandoned her at every night in her sleep
-in spite of her chosen profession in life and constant dance with danger, she is fairly naive about the world
-cunningly knows how to use her sexuality and looks to get what she wants, but doesn't really understand why it works
-is one of the few women in the world who actually loves everything about her body
-secretly revels that her kiss jump started Angel's heart
-wants to try it again
-is *so* unbelievably glad that Gunn was her first
-would give up all her money to be held and touched whenever she wanted
-doesn't actually use her snarky attitiude as an emotional shield - she really can be that snarky
-would never, ever admit it to anyone, especially any members of the Fang Gang, but wants to be asked to join the team
-can see herself shopping and gossiping with Cordelia & Fred
-Gunn as her boyfriend, Angel and Wes her big, overprotective brothers and Lorne her wacky cousin
-can't wait 'til the day she can burn every pair of gloves she ownes
-has a love/hate relationship with lighting
-really can't actually fathom a life where she gets to be normal
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My Connor -- Masq, 16:40:41 08/05/03 Tue
My Connor:
- is still the genetic offspring of Liam of Galway and Darla.
- still has vampire-like super powers.
- wonders why he's stronger, faster and has better hearing than everyone else he knows.
- doesn't believe his "parent"'s theory: it's a gift from God.
- is no longer named "Connor".
- dresses grunge when he can get away with it, preppy when he's forced to.
- eats at McDonald's.
- is enrolled in college in Los Angeles.
- doesn't believe in vampires, demons, gods, or lawyers. Yet.
- uses condoms.
- broods.
- has artistic talents, and secret artistic aspirations.
- is the only person in his family with any artistic talent.
- loves comic books about superheroes.
- got an "A" in his high school Ethics course.
- enjoys teasing (the girl he believes is) his little sister.
- loves his family.
- nevertheless sometimes wishes he was adopted.
- likes strong women.
- is a TV cop-show junkie.
- has a secret fascination with weapons.
- still has a temper.
- is destined to kill the demon Sahjhan.
- doesn't like being manipulated or told what to do.
- doesn't particularly like men with British accents, although he can't say why.
- likes to hunt with (the man he believes is) his father in the woods where he (believes he) grew up.
- is really good at tracking.
- has a memory in which he survived falling off a cliff while hiking without busting his coconut.
- has an unconscious habit of crossing his arms, especially when he's mad or anxious.
- still really should get the hair out of his eyes.
- Has seen "The Matrix", like, a zillion times, just because of Morpheus' line: "You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind."
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Love your Connor -- Oyceter, 16:57:36 08/05/03 Tue
Especially the bit about the Matrix! I can see him wanting to be Neo, with the black clothes, the floppy hair, and the hacker skills.
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Sounds a bit like the Connor -- HonorH, 19:37:42 08/05/03 Tue
I'm currently writing. Five years in the future, Connor's destiny finally catches up to him--and his girlfriend, Dawn Summers--in the form of Sahjahn. Should be fun, if it ever gets off the ground.
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I'll beta that puppy -- Masq, 19:43:11 08/05/03 Tue
And I never read fan fic!
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I've never betaed anything -- Scroll, 22:46:36 08/05/03 Tue
But to get first-crack at this fic, I'd do my best! Either way, can't wait to read this. Connor/Dawn is a (not-so) secret 'ship of mine :)
And that Sahjhan thing really needs to be played out. They can't dangle a prophecy in front of us and not give us satisfaction!
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Your Connor + my additions -- Tyreseus, 11:55:02 08/07/03 Thu
So much of this is good, I just want to piggy-back.
- last serious girlfriend was a shallow, self-absorbed prom queen type.
- baffled by this because they had nothing in common.
- despite his high grades and obvious intellect, was never considered a nerd.
- laughs a lot (Angel would have made this a condition if his "deal").
- told his dad about it when he lost his virginity.
- but growing up, always went to his mom when he had questions about sex.
- has never been tempted to try drugs because, well, why?
- because his life is no harder than anyone else's.
- woke up one night about two years ago from a weird dream about a pretty blonde vampire killing herself.
- was, naturally, bothered by this dream and spent a lot of time over-analyzing it and himself.
- decided that he wasn't suicidal.
- continues to have bizarre vampire dreams.
- figures it's just the stress of his senior year and leaving home for the first time.
- plans to be in the same dorm hall as his best friend, but not the same room, because he wants the whole "college experience" of a new roommate.
- grew his hair out in defiance of his mother.
- will probably cut it when he starts college.
[>
My Harmony -- cjl, 07:29:59 08/06/03 Wed
-- Only child.
-- Misses her Dad.
-- Mom and Dad got divorced when she was five, and Daddy spoiled her rotten.
-- Daddy always promised to take her to France someday.
-- Can't bring herself to contact him.
-- Loved every minute of the Cordettes, without any of Cordelia's soul searching.
-- Except for Cordy, no real friendships.
-- Was an average student, but did all of her assignments, and turned them in promptly.
-- A high school conformist who secretly wanted to be "bad."
-- Sired during graduation.
-- Willow-level hopeless romantic.
-- She was a virgin when she met Spike.
-- Hated Spike for treating her like trash.
-- Secretly got off on Spike treating her like trash.
-- Would take him back in a second if he promised to treat her nice.
-- Never liked Buffy or any of the Scoobs.
-- Thought they were stuck up and clique-ish.
-- Thinks biting people is "icky"
-- But a girl gets hungry sometimes, you know?
-- Hates not having a reflection.
-- Wears makeup anyway.
-- Went to Mexico after "Disharmony."
-- Whined about nobody speaking English, and was back in California after two weeks.
-- Needs to be "with the group."
-- Favorite movie: "Legend."
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Oh, I can't resist doing Harmony. -- Arethusa, 08:50:53 08/06/03 Wed
(No pun intended.) Mine's a little different, though.
--slept with boys to advance socially
--found out she was really good at it
--but didn't like it very much
--slept with a girl once
--and really liked it
--but decided sleeping with boys would better because she wants to get married in a big church wedding with a long white train on her dress and lots of expensive flowers and a real band, not just a dj, and a French caterer and make all her girlfriends jealous
--doesn't have any girlfriends
--has forgotten that churches have crosses
--always expected a boy to send flowers the next day and cried when he didn't
--always has a television, radio or CD player on
--because she can't stand to be alone, especially with her own thoughts
--picked on kids because she thought they deserved it
--envied everyone's admiration of Willow's brains
--but would rather be a hottie
--has seen Charlie's Angels eight times
--was afraid of her minions
--has a list of celebrities she'd like to sire
--but is afraid to try
--steals copies of "People" from newsstands
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Interesting differences, but not irreconcilable. -- cjl, 10:47:57 08/06/03 Wed
Now that I think about it, Harmony probably did "[sleep] with boys to advance socially," and probably was "really good at it." If she could be a bedroom Scheherezade for Spike (who would have staked her otherwise), she had to have a number of "tricks" up her sleeve.
But I get the feeling that none of her previous sexual partners ever challenged her the way Spike did. Granted, unsouled Spike was the worst possible initiation into adult relationships, but it must have made her think about what she needed out of (un)life and in a relationship. It's probably why she looked up Cordy in L.A.
We both picked up on Harmony's main problems: she's vain, she's spoiled--and she is a sheep. We also noted her essential loneliness. (Sad, but logical.) Maybe officially joining up with W&H/AI will give her that feeling of belonging she can't seem to do without.
[>
My Tara -- shambleau, 10:46:31 08/06/03 Wed
--Painted her room black in college, but would've used earth tones if she and Willow had gotten their own place.
--Sang when she was alone.
--Felt close to Dawn from the beginning, as fellow outsiders.
--Loved Dawn like a daughter. Sometimes wondered about having a child with Willow.
--Had a hidden silly side that only Willow saw.
--Could be blindsided by someone being mean, because she looked for the good in people.
--Had begun to stop downgrading herself, but still believed, wrongly, much of her worth came from Willow's love.
--Was the best cook among the Scoobies, so she could manage not to burn pancakes, usually.
--Was the most ethical of the Scoobies, but out of natural compassion for others, not through anything thought out.
--Knew the confidence she had gained from Willow's love was what gave her the strength to leave Willow.
--Never completely connected with Xander, though she would have if he'd wanted to.
--Was on the way to a great friendship with Buffy that would have finally made her feel she was a true Scooby.
--Was a good speller. And, while not as smart as Willow, outshone Buffy academically.
--Talked books with Dawn to distract her when Buffy was in the grave. Helped Dawn with schoolwork at the beginning of the year.
--Would have held a special place for Willow in her heart forever, even if they'd not gotten back together.
--would have, over time, become the most beloved member of the gang.
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That's her, all right. -- Gyrus, 13:11:41 08/06/03 Wed
Nice summation. You've got me missing Tara all over again.
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My Tara is a lot like your Tara -- Scroll, 13:36:24 08/06/03 Wed
My Tara:
- loved art of all kinds
- was something of an amateur artist
- was proud of the artwork she had up in her dorm room
- wanted to be a professional artist
- but knew she wasn't good enough
- studied art history at UCSunnydale
- was thinking of doing her master's
- loved music of all kinds
- except rap
- cringed at the profanity in most rap songs
- sang along to the radio a lot
- sang religious hymns and folk songs as well
- wanted to join the church choir when she was younger
- but didn't because the choir director scared her
- and she had stage fright
- loved magic of all kinds
- except the kind that hurt people
- learned about magic before she learned how to talk
- learned to keep quiet about magic before she learned how to talk
- learned to keep quiet about being gay before she learned how to drive
- never knew a life in which magic wasn't as natural and necessary as the air she breathed
- loved her grandmother
- cried for hours in her mother's lap after her grandmother died
- loved her mother
- cried for hours under her covers after her mother's death
- never let on that she heard Donny crying for hours under his covers as well
- loved Dawn like a daughter
- loved cooking for Dawn
- sang Dawn to sleep nearly every night for a month after Buffy died
- watched "Passions" with Dawn
- even though she secretly thought soap operas were dumb
- refused to watch "reality TV"
- suspected that Dawn had a crush on her
- was really flattered
- tried to discourage her anyway
- was the best cook of all the Scoobies
- but thought Anya's salads were much better than her own
- exchanged recipes with Anya
- chatted online with Anya
- appreciated Anya's good spelling and grammar
- admired Anya's ability to speak her mind
- loved Willow
- thought of Willow as the love of her life
- really wanted to take Willow horseback-riding
- thought Willow's red hair was one of the most beautiful things in the world
- would have loved Dark!Willow
- even as she did everything in her power to stop her
- really was ethical because she believed in right and wrong
- thanked her mom and grandmother every day for being such good teachers
- wished Giles had been a better teacher to Willow
- wished she herself had been a better teacher to Willow
- was continually frustrated that she couldn't get through to Willow
- admired and respected each and every one of the Scoobies
- including Oz
- thought she and Oz could have been good friends in another life
- loved listening to Willow's stories of Jesse, Oz, Cordelia, and Angel
- never wanted to meet Cordelia or Angel
- until she finally did at Buffy's funeral and realised they were not so bad after all
- really empathised with Buffy
- really liked Spike
- never completely trusted him
- believed that he really loved Buffy
- but still didn't trust him
- is kind of sad and lonely that people talk about her in the past tense
- is happy that they talk about her still
- is having fun making pancakes with Joyce in heaven
- is looking forward to sharing them with her friends
And totally agree with this one:
--would have, over time, become the most beloved member of the gang.
Damnit I still really miss Tara...
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Re: My Tara is a lot like your Tara -- dmw, 06:16:16 08/07/03 Thu
I like your thoughts. Your Tara is a lot like mine.
I'm curious though as to where you and ZachsMind got the idea that Tara liked Spike because I don't recall them having much interaction.
If you miss Tara, you'll probably like Pipsqueak's video "Happy Girl." It's one of many on her site.
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Why Tara likes Spike? -- Scroll, 21:55:47 08/08/03 Fri
Honestly? I have no idea where I get that from. Just a general impression. For example, I think Tara defaults to liking a person, rather than disliking a person. And Spike cared a lot for Dawn, and I think Tara would've appreciated anyone who cared so much for Dawn. Plus, he did play a role in determining she wasn't a demon, he was nice to her when she was all crazy from Glory's brain-suck (experience with Dru, my guess is!), and even when she tried to discourage him from pursuing Buffy so adamantly, she wasn't mean about it. Just a tiny bit snarky, which I really enjoyed since Tara seldom got to be snarky ;)
But yeah, I don't think Tara ever trusted Spike, despite liking him.
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Re: Why Tara likes Spike? -- dmw, 07:15:58 08/09/03 Sat
I think you're right about Tara defaulting to liking a person, but that she wouldn't ever trust Spike. I was just curious because I've seen this idea about Tara liking Spike a few times recently and I was beginning to wonder if I'd missed a little scene someplace.
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Re: Why Tara likes Spike? -- sdev, 11:05:38 08/09/03 Sat
In Dead Things when Tara is talking to Buffy at the end, and catches on to the fact that Buffy is sleeping with Spike, she seems somewhat sympathetic to the idea and definitely non-judgmental (Do you love him? If you don't that's ok too). Also in Seeing Red, when she tells Willow about Spike and Buffy, she kind of corrects Willow for being judgmental. She also does say of Spike, which is more than others like Xander acknowledge, that "he's done alot of good."
So maybe people are inferring that she liked Spike.
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Too, there's OAFA -- HonorH, 16:45:02 08/09/03 Sat
The way she teased him wasn't mean--it was more like the way friends tease each other. He responded with amusement rather than offense, too. That leaves room to construct mutual like between them.
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Re: Why Tara likes Spike? -- dmw, 17:48:05 08/09/03 Sat
In Intervention, Tara also tells Willow on learning that Spike slept with Buffy(bot): "What are you, kidding? She's nuts!" I think she's being sympathetic to Buffy in Dead Things, because of what she's gone thro