August 2003 Archives

[> Re: "hold me"--a sex-biased privilege? (Spoilers for S4 Angel "Orpheus, just in case) -- Kenny, 11:50:21 08/05/03 Tue

Well, Connor got held alot during AtS S3. Actually, you can kind of count the end of "Orpheus", when Angel gets his soul back and grabs Connor from behind (hmm, that sounds kinky).

Was there any Buffy/Angel holding during "Amends"? Other than maybe that, I can't think of any.

[> Re: "hold me"--a sex-biased privilege? -- sdev, 14:10:32 08/05/03 Tue

Drusilla holds and comforts Spike at the end of School Hard. I also think there are several moments when Spike holds her when she is sick.

[> Trying to think -- Diana, 17:26:53 08/05/03 Tue

I felt the Xander/Willow hug in "Grave" echoed the way that Willow held a dead Tara.

I was trying to think of times either Wesley or Angel were held. "Orpheus" comes to mind when Willow hugs him. I'm not sure if the line of sexual demarcation when it comes to hugging is because hugs aren't manly, but because Angel dealing with his pain by himself is pretty much his trademark.

As for "Beauty and the Beast," the script is amazing what it says. "Angel feels the first comfort he has for over a hundred years" (or something along those lines. WE NEED PSYCHE). Go MARTI!!!! Way to subvert the stereotype.

[> Re: "hold me"--a sex-biased privilege? -- Corwin of Amber, 17:51:42 08/05/03 Tue

Xander holds Buffy after Teresa delivered her message from Angelus in "Phases".

Xander and Jesse hug in the WTTH.

Buffy and Willow walk silently through town, holding hands, in "Hush".

[> subverting female hugging -- sdev, 22:44:29 08/05/03 Tue

I know you clarified and said holding not hugging, but I thought it was interesting that when Buffy and Kendra say goodbye in What's My Line 2, Kendra says, as Buffy begins to move in for the hug, "I don't do hugs."

[> [> Re: subverting female hugging -- Gyrus, 07:36:01 08/06/03 Wed

I think the "I don't hug" line was written partly for laughs and partly to show how much Kendra (whose function on the show was to illustrate the attitudes of traditional Slayers) isolates herself from other people, throwing Buffy's bring-the-whole-family attitute into relief.

[> wandering ot a little -- MsGiles, 03:38:37 08/06/03 Wed

I was wondering if it was possible for a man to hug a man in a supportive kind of way. On or off TV.

I forgot Xander and Jesse. Thanks, Corwin. That might be the *only* BtVS example?

I can't help but remember Spike and Giles in Tabula Rasa, under the impression that they are father and son, doing a kind of stiff-upper-lip goodbye hug with lots of embarrassed backslapping to indicate English male affection. Not quite the same though.

And then of course there's Angel possessed by Marcus hugging Wesley (on AtS), under the impression he's splitting up with him, but then that's playing with the gay subtext, so it's even more completely different.

But I guess men in 'real life' don't hug each other a lot for consolation. (Or do they? Secretly? ) Whereas they wouldn't mind being hugged by a woman.

Anya hugs Giles at the end of Grave, which is the sort of situation where you might expect a comfort hug, but it's her delight rather than his comfort, as he looks pleased but pained.

[> I think I have a good one -- btvsk8, 05:11:26 08/06/03 Wed

When Buffy and Spike sleep in the abandoned house in touched, I remember the shooting script specifically said that Buffy was to fall asleep being held by spike and that they were to wake up with Buffy holding spike. Probably as a way to show their mutual support and reliance.

[> [> it looked more mutual when buffy woke up -- anom, 10:03:15 08/06/03 Wed

"...in touched, I remember the shooting script specifically said that Buffy was to fall asleep being held by spike and that they were to wake up with Buffy holding spike."

It didn't look like just "Buffy holding Spike" in the episode as it aired. And if you're not awake for it (Buffy woke up 1st & left w/out waking Spike), how comforting can it be? Not that Spike didn't get something out of it--"best night of my life"--but he didn't seem to be in need of comforting in that instance.

[> not looking for a list of every hug -- anom, 10:38:53 08/06/03 Wed

Sorry, I'm just getting frustrated here. A list of all the hugs would make this the longest thread I ever started, but that's not what I had in mind. I'm talking about holding to comfort the other person, as distinct from hugging out of friendship or...well, see my reply to Anneth for a list of what I didn't mean. I was asking about how rare it is on TV in general & even in the Jossverse for this to be done for male characters, whether the character doing the holding is M or F.

I was hoping we could get a discussion going about why it's so rare on TV (& movies) & whether/why it really is equally rare in real life. MsGiles picked up on this when she asked, "I was wondering if it was possible for a man to hug a man in a supportive kind of way. On or off TV." Maybe it's more likely to be seen as acceptable for gay men (whether they're in a relationship or not), or between men who are closely related. Otherwise...I dunno. Are men just not "allowed" to need this kind of comforting? Or to admit to needing it? How much of an obstacle is worry about implications of homosexuality? How severe does the need have to be before you just don't care about that? Discussion, anyone?

[> [> Men, and the hugging thereof -- Gyrus, 13:42:53 08/06/03 Wed

Are men just not "allowed" to need this kind of comforting? Or to admit to needing it? How much of an obstacle is worry about implications of homosexuality? How severe does the need have to be before you just don't care about that? Discussion, anyone?

You seem to be addressing two slightly different subjects: male/male hugging and men being hugged for comfort (by men or women).

Regarding male/male hugging, certainly it is tacitly discouraged in a lot of families and cultures, mine included. Homophobia is a factor, but so is tradition; men are supposed to greet each other by shaking hands, and that's the way it is. (Maybe it's that my family is mostly of British and German ancestry -- not the cuddliest ethnic groups around.)

As far as being hugged for comfort goes, yes; men (where I come from) aren't supposed to admit that they need it. The only time it is OK to give a man that kind of support is if he is so distressed that he breaks down right in front of you -- something he would not be expected to do unless he is under extreme stress.

It's all incredibly stupid, of course, but there it is.

[> [> Re: not looking for a list of every hug -- ponygirl, 13:44:36 08/06/03 Wed

I do understand what you're saying. With the exception of Touched, the other instances of holding involved a complete emotional breakdown - the person being held seemed incapable of requesting or refusing comfort, they just had to accept it. It's a very vulnerable position. In the case of Touched, Buffy had to admit to her need for comfort, and it stemmed out of her prior inability to admit weakness. We certainly never see a similar situation played by a male character, the closest I think would be Spike asking Buffy to stay with him in Help, and that request was refused.

There are instances of men on the shows being held, Angel by Buffy, Gunn by Wesley - but in all cases they are a result of physical weakness rather than emotional, a key difference and one I think is a result of cultural ideas about men expressing their emotions. I think society teaches us to see emotional vulnerability as a weakness, but women, in general, are taught that admitting weakness will lead to help being offered, men have no such assurance.

[> [> [> now that i think of it, we did hear... -- anom, 22:41:58 08/06/03 Wed

...Robin Wood tell Faith (in Touched) that when the FE appeared to him as his mother, he wanted her to hold him like a little child. But then he had to follow that by saying, "In a manly way, of course." He doesn't get held, though; instead, he gets sex. Hmm. Hadn't thought to contrast this particular aspect of it w/the Buffy/Spike holding scene, aside from the contrast of that scene w/all the sex scenes. But F/R didn't look like comfort sex (to me anyway); Faith initiates it, seemingly not related to Robin's earlier statement. It looked more like we-might-not-live-to-have-another-chance sex. Then again, there's been plenty said on this board about Robin's slayer = mother issues....

And after all that, I'm not sure where this example fits in.

[> [> [> [> Re: now that i think of it, we did hear... -- Gyrus, 22:47:45 08/06/03 Wed

Robin Wood tell Faith (in Touched) that when the FE appeared to him as his mother, he wanted her to hold him like a little child. But then he had to follow that by saying, "In a manly way, of course." He doesn't get held, though; instead, he gets sex.

Maybe he's a conquistador AND a comfortador.

Sorry.

[> [> [> [> [> or the other way around? -- anom, 09:57:20 08/07/03 Thu

"Maybe he's a conquistador AND a comfortador."

Or maybe Faith's both a conquistadora & a comfortadora. Or both are both.

Even more sorry now, aren'tcha? @>)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: or the other way around? -- Gyrus, 12:52:36 08/07/03 Thu

Or maybe Faith's both a conquistadora & a comfortadora. Or both are both.

I guess Faith is rather Xanderesque in that way -- having to learn that you can be close with someone of the opposite sex without having to get groiny.

Even more sorry now, aren'tcha? @>)

Big time. But I guess I had it coming. :)

Thinking out loud again.. One (of many) ways of explaining Dawn -- ZachsMind, 15:00:35 08/05/03 Tue

This is all speculation and quite apocryphal, but it's fun to contemplate. This line of thinking started for me with something that Anya, Dawn & Willow talked about in the seventh season episode "Get It Done."

DAWN: Willow, how would you get Buffy back..?
WILLOW: ...Uh, physics, principles, basic laws...
DAWN: Such as?
WILLOW: Uh, conservation of energies. You can't really create or destroy anything, only transfer.
(Anya scoffs)
DAWN: I'm sorry, are you helping?
ANYA: No, but at least I'm not galloping off in the wrong direction.
WILLOW: Magic works off physics.
ANYA: Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.

In that episode, an exchange was made. Buffy was sent into the distant past (assumedly in her own temporal dimension) and a demon was sent into the present to take her place. The demon's body was used as part of a "reverse exchange" spell to get Buffy back.

Now. We KNOW that Dawn's not really supposed to be there, but she is all the same. Some monks had this green energy ball and they had to hide it from Glorificus, so in an act of desperation, they hid the green energy ball inside a mortal entity that was to be Buffy's sister. Did they just concoct Dawnie out of thin air? How can three monks sitting in a monastery with a little magic literally create life? Even gods like Osiris fear resurrecting life. Believe me. The monks didn't create Dawnie.

Dawnie was energy but has somehow been mystically transmuted into matter. Then we are to believe the monks were bright enough, in their haste, to research the psyches of not only Buffy & Joyce, but also everyone from Anya to Xander (A to Z I mean). With memories so incredibly vivid and consistent, that they're easier to take for granted than the reality - Dawnie's not really real.

I don't buy this. I just don't. The monks must have gotten the inspiration from somewhere. And magic (in Whedon's fictional universe anyway) does have its own distorted but functional system of physics and logic. You cannot create something from nothing. You can change something but you can't just make something that's not there. Furthermore, the monks would need some kind of template from which to base these changes.

When it comes to fiction anyway, I'm a strong proponent of the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics. In "The Wish" we saw Anya appear to create from scratch an alternate reality in which Buffy never made it to Sunnydale. One can assume that a vengeance demon has the power to just invent alternate realities at a whim. I theorize that somewhen, that alternate reality always existed. That there's also an alternate reality in which Buffy made it to Sunnydale, but Giles did not. There's a potentially infinite number of alternate realities, each slightly different from the others. One where Xander's actually cool. One where Willow & Oz never break up. One where.. well you get the idea.

I believe there is an alternate reality in which Buffy always had a sister, her name was Dawn, and other than that one little difference, everything else about Buffy's universe is the same. I believe the monks drew from that alternate reality (whether they realized it or not) and took that reality's Dawn - snatched her from that other reality, and replaced her with the green energy orb.

This other alternate reality is the real home of the Dawn we know. In that reality everyone there took her presence as much for granted as you take for granted everyone you know. One morning, Buffy & Joyce went to wake up their sleepyhead Dawnie for school, and in her place was a glowing green energy orb. Now, in this other alternate reality, Glorificus was not cast out of her hell, didn't go mad, and didn't need the key. So the key was safe.

Because of this magic spell, Dawn is inexplicably linked to this green ball of energy existing in an alternate reality. The memories of all the Scoobies were very briefly merged with their alternate reality counterparts, as space and time were distorted by the very powerful magicks to make this whole thing take place.

So if this is true, there's an alternate reality in which Dawnie existed for the equivalent of the first four seasons, then suddenly disappeared and was replaced by a glowing green energy orb thingy, with no explanation as to why. Buffy & the others may have speculated that the green energy thingy was Dawnie, and may have kept the orb in safe keeping all these years since, or they just decided that Dawnie was missing and presumed dead. Maybe a runaway. Maybe snatched by bad guys, who left the green glowing orb thingy as a calling card. However, no one in that reality would have the slightest idea what the green glowing energy orb thingy was for. At best they could find a wise demon or call on The Oracle or something, and learn that the green glowing energy orb thingy was not of their reality. Other than that it'd be a dead end. Or would it?

What we know as seasons five through seven would have happened remarkably differently in this other reality. Glory wasn't trapped in Ben, so Tara never got turned crazy. We can surmise that other things happened normally. Spike still started pining for Buffy. Riley & Buffy still had their falling out. Xander & Anya still got together. Tara & Willow stayed together. Life went on. Faith got out of her coma and tried to steal Buffy's life, but ultimately ended up in jail. Buffy never died in this reality, because the key didn't open a portal there. However, since Joyce died of natural causes, we can surmise that Buffy lost her mother only months after losing her younger sister.

...Woah. And we thought season six was bad for a Buffy that had lost her mother and had died but come back to life. Imagine a Buffy who didn't have Joyce OR Dawn, and never died herself but wished she had. The more I think about this idea the more I like it, cuz it'd take years for Willow to figure it out, but one would surmise that eventually she'd engineer a way to get their Dawnie back, not realizing that Dawnie doesn't know she's got a home somewhere else.

[> Interesting idea -- Diana, 16:13:59 08/05/03 Tue

Though listen to what Anya is saying:"Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit."

Anya's magick worked off of the power of "The Wish." In the episode which bears this title and we meet Anya, we see what Buffy would be like if she never met the Scoobies and Angel. But the story is centered around Cordelia. It explores the power and limitation of the wish, its pros and cons. Cordy's wish is the catalyst for this alternative dimension (I would say created from that wish, not just a pre-existing one). Her wish that Buffy not come to Sunnydale not only didn't make her life any better, but in the Wishverse Willow and Xander are *really* together. Also, her wish ends up consuming her.

Anya's power source is smashed by Giles (mind) who believes that the other universe has to be better. This action shows just what it takes to get out of the fantasy worlds we all create in our minds by the power of The Wish. "Superstar" revisits this. What consitutes reality is one of the many things that the Buffyverse has explored.

Dawn is the ultimate exploration of this. Even though Buffy knows that her memories are false, she feels they aren't and accepts them as real. The monks can easily turn The Key into Dawn. That is a fairly simple transfer of energies. What is impressive is the memory alterations. What is powerful enough to cause that?

Answer: Season 5 is all about Buffy's ability to love. Once Buffy thinks that Dawn is her sister, this love can fuel the magick that is required to change the memories of quite a few people, even Angel in LA. All these people are connected to Dawn through Buffy. "She is me." This connection can be used as a conduit for the memory changes.

Pre-existing alternative universes are an interesting idea, one that has been discussed in physics before. However the show seems to be strong on logical consequences. "The Wish," "Superstar" and Dawn herself all seem to me to be an exploration of this.

Just my ideas.

[> [> Re: Interesting idea -- heywhynot, 17:04:08 08/05/03 Tue

I would say that the "Wishverse" is the same universe as we saw in all season of Buffy. It wasn't an alternate universe that was created, it was the same universe rewound and played again this time with Buffy going to Cleveland instead of Sunnydale. Anya's magics did this with Cordelia's wish acting as the catalyst.

In Superstar, we have people's memories changed and Sunnydale to match those memories. Of course given Jonathan made himself Mr. Sauve-good guy, to keep things balanced a demon was created.

With Dawn, you have living energy that changes form into Dawn. The Monks did not create life, they gave the Key a new form. Their magics appear to have retroactively inserted Dawn into history at least in terms of people's memories. Though it could of been that it was like the Wish (ie the universe was altered itself so the same events occurred just with Dawn there) which would of made Dawn even harder for Glory to find. Got to love how JW & gang primed Dawn's appearance from showing world's could be altered to the dream's hinting at Dawn's arrival.

Of course the wonderful thing at an infinite number of realities is that if it is in the realm of possible, then such a scenario did happen in some universe.

Still saying Dracula's appearance was part of the ruse to insert Dawn into Buffy's life. ;)

[> [> But your catalyst isn't realized until after the spell is cast.. -- ZachsMind, 19:13:07 08/05/03 Tue

I understand what you're saying. Anya did point out that a catalyst is required to initiate the spell.

You're citing Buffy's love for Dawn as the catalyst for the spell that turned the green energy orb into Dawn, but it can't work that way. Buffy's love for Dawn didn't exist until after the spell was cast. That would be like using Jane's love for John as the catalyst for a spell to make her love him, when she didn't before the spell was cast.

The monks did need a catalyst. I agree with you there. We weren't shown what that catalyst was, but it would have been up to the monks to provide that before the spell began. We have to assume they found the catalyst because they were obviously successful. You are right in saying that a catalyst is required to start a spell, but that's not at issue here, because all we see are the after effects of the spell, and a glimpse of the three monks chanting at the end of their spell. We're not privy to information prior to that, beyond the knowledge that their cause was effective.

I believe what happened with Dawn & the Key was a mild and very brief merger of two almost identical alternate realities. So brief that it didn't even register to anyone inside either of those realities. Even a god like Glory was oblivious. The monks themselves may have been oblivious to the mechanics of what their spell caused. This is also what happened with The Wish, but rather than merge the two realities together, D'Hoffryn's mystic powers, through the conduit of Anyanka, using Cordy's wish as the catalyst, catapulted Cordy into a reality not far removed from her own. This kind of thing probably happened all the time. The difference here was that Anya, not thinking, gave her power center to Cordy, and Giles destroyed it, thus undoing the spell. However, and here's the tricky part. The Giles who destroyed the amulet didn't suddenly become the Giles we know and love. That other Giles in the Buffyless universe was STILL in that other universe. All he did was banish Anya and Cordy from his reality. From his perspective, the action had no result. It did nothing at all. He was still powerless against The Master and still had no Slayer to help him.

This is also how Vampire Willow was available some months later in "Dopplegangland." The Buffyless reality still existed in an adjacent reality to the one we most often saw on the show, and Anya's busted spell with Willow didn't reinvent the reality again. It was already there. D'Hoffryn's power, through Anya as the conduit, only had access to it.

Think of it. EVERY time a magic user in the series created something seemingly out of thin air, that stuff came from somewhere. It didn't just magically appear out of nothing. It was moved. Either from some other location in the same reality, or an adjacent location in a different reality in which that stuff already existed. When Willow magically put decorations all over Buffy's house for a party, those decorations already existed precisely in that location in an alternate reality and Willow just mystically "borrowed" them, which probably ticked off the other Willow in that other reality who put the stuff up there the old fashioned way. However she had no idea that it was her own counterpart in another reality that swiped her decorations.

The Superstar spell actually coincides with my theory as well. There IS, believe it or not, a reality in which Jonathan was an even greater dogooder than Buffy. When Jonathan instigated that spell, he temporarily merged those two realities together. However, to make the Jonathan that instigated the spell match the Jonathan that existed in that other reality, some energies had to be removed from 'our' Jonathan, and that's where that meanie monster came from, it consisted of the fears and insecurities of 'our' Jonathan that the other Jonathan had successfully removed in whatever manner he used to become a hero type.

So back to Dawnie. The monks were the conduit. We don't know what the catalyst was. It may have been D'Hoffryn for all we know (which would mean Dawnie's as connected to D'Hoffryn as Anya and Willow are). Were we ever told just who the monks in question actually worshipped? Where they got their magic powers from? That was probably the catalyst.

Or are we talking apples and oranges here?

[> [> [> Two tiered spell -- Diana, 19:48:13 08/05/03 Tue

First: Monks turn the Key into the human form of Dawn. Then they make Buffy think she is her sister, with no memories.

Second: Buffy loves anyone who is her sister (they turned her specifically into her sister so she would love and protect her), so this is the conduit for the memory changes.

It is like in Chem lab when you have to first create one compound to use in another part of the experiment

[> [> [> "Superstar" explanation doesn't make sense -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:52:07 08/05/03 Tue

A big point of "Superstar" was that the Jonathan we saw couldn't possibly exist. He was the big hero of Sunnydale, yet somehow movies starring him came from Hollywood. He was a big public celebrity, but the super-secret Initiative didn't have a problem with their top advisor doing that. There was no mention of him having supernatural powers, yet he kicked butt better than Buffy. I thought part of "Superstar's" message was that the Jonathan we saw couldn't possibly exist.

Also, addressing your general point about "something out of nothing", I still maintain that magical energy can be turned into physical form. So, it's not really "something out of nothing", it's "something physical out of something non-physical".

[> [> [> [> Oh wait, you're wanting me to make sense? =) -- ZachsMind, 09:49:20 08/06/03 Wed

We're talking about a fictional series about vampires, demons mixing it up with college dropouts, and you want me to make sense? Okay I'll give it a try.

What I was trying to explain was that everything comes from somewhere. Now, when "our" Jonathan was using magic to concoct his own private heaven of perfection, he was drawing from some other reality. Maybe he was drawing from several realities, in which case, whatever source he was calling upon, using himself as the conduit, was immensely powerful - perhaps more powerful than whatever banished Glory a year later. These Jonathan in these other realities were each different from "our" Jonathan in some way, and he was unwittingly using them as templates to redesign himself, trying to create the perfect Jonathan. No doubt this was causing a lot of instability in the multiverse, hence the instability we saw in the reality.

The inconsistencies you mention only prove that there couldn't be a Jonathan that did all these things simultaneously. However, it is possible that there's a reality in which Jonathan was a singer, one in which he was a military operative, one in which he was an official Scooby, and "our" Jonathan used magic from his vantage point to temporarily merge all these similar but distinctly different realities together into his own. The monster created from him was a manifestation of all his insecurities and everything about him that he was trying to push away, but that couldn't find a way into those other alternate realities.

I'm not saying this is THE answer, but it's an alternative way of looking at things. If what's really happening with magic in Buffy's reality is that it's a matter of dimensional transference instead of literal transmutation, its why some people are better able to manipulate magic than others. Willow's real reason for being overwhelmed by magic is because she's like a child playing matches. She doesn't understand the real mechanics behind the power she possesses, and therefore keeps getting burned.

This doesn't explain all magic. I mean when she was spinning a pencil in the air and then shot it into a tree, she didn't draw from an alternate reality in which pencils just do that for no reason. Some magic is mundane and not dimensionally affected, but when a human calls upon some great power wanting something that's not possible is one reality, that magic seeks out similar alternate realities and finds one in which it is possible.

[> Disagreeing -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:50:37 08/05/03 Tue

"How can three monks sitting in a monastery with a little magic literally create life? Even gods like Osiris fear resurrecting life. Believe me. The monks didn't create Dawnie."

I think there's a difference between creating life and resurrection. The creation of Dawn was making new life (which, actually, happens all the time, only by less supernatural means), whereas resurrecting Tara would be bringing somebody dead back to life, which has been impressed on us many times as being out of the natural order and an all around bad idea. Plus, I wouldn't say Osiris (or his spokesdemon) was afraid; rather, he just seemed unwilling to break cosmic rules to do it.

"Dawnie was energy but has somehow been mystically transmuted into matter. Then we are to believe the monks were bright enough, in their haste, to research the psyches of not only Buffy & Joyce, but also everyone from Anya to Xander (A to Z I mean). With memories so incredibly vivid and consistent, that they're easier to take for granted than the reality - Dawnie's not really real.

"I don't buy this. I just don't. The monks must have gotten the inspiration from somewhere."

They're not sorcerors, remember, they're monks. The word "monk" implies they were part of some religious affiliation. Given that, doesn't it seem far more likely that, instead of creating Dawn and building memories themselves, they called upon a higher power to do it for them? And we do know that very powerful beings can alter reality in such a way. Jasmine (a Power That Is) made the world as though Cordelia had never met Angel in LA (granted, there were a lot of flaws in that, but, then, Jasmine wanted Cordelia to see through it). She also wiped all memories or physical records of the Beast from the earthly plane, and Wolfram & Hart (presumably with the aid of the Senior Partners) altered the Connor's memories so that he thought he was part of a normal family, as well as altering the family's memories to fit that, and altering AI's memories so that they don't know who Connor is. Clearly great powers like the Senior Partners and the PTB can drastically remodel memories and reality when they want to, so, if the monks called upon one of them for assistance, the memory building doesn't seem so ludicrous. All they'd do is say, "Send her to the Slayer as a sister", and the power they called upon would do the rest.

"You cannot create something from nothing. You can change something but you can't just make something that's not there."

Actually, in a way you can. At some point in Season 4, Willow referred to creating something out of nothing as a magical goal she was aiming towards, and she did just that with the party decorations in "All the Way". Of course, out of nothing isn't technically correct. However, Einstein showed that matter and energy are made of the same stuff, so you can, theoretically, create matter (like Dawn or the party decorations) out of energy (or magic).

I'm not saying your theory about alternate timelines isn't possible. Buffyverse laws of metaphysics have never spoken against it. However, your reasons for supporting it don't seem quite that solid. Plus, even if you don't subscribe to Occam's Razor, there is the fact that JW isn't overly concerned with how mystical events happen on "Buffy", so a complicated theory (like yours) isn't likely to pan out.

[> [> Re: Disagreeing -- heywhynot, 07:43:17 08/06/03 Wed

It should also be pointed out that the monks did not create life that was not there before even. The Key was living energy. Using the whole e-mc2 natural order of the universe as Finn pointed out, made it not that hard to give the Key the form of Dawn. The form was actually relatively easy to make. They had Buffy's blood/DNA as a template and knew the events in Buffy's life, making a sister with magics would not be that hard. They had the nature and nurture elements to work with.

Memories are also easy to play with. Our minds are not tape recorders. All our memories are warped for lack of a better term and don't actually exactly mirror what actually happened. We force fit things all the time. Look at how inaccurate eyewitness accounts are (and how varied they can be). We have seen on BtVS and Angel multiple times memories being changed. The monks knew magics better than Jonathan and look what he was able to do.

[> Re: Thinking out loud again.. One (of many) ways of explaining Dawn -- sdev, 22:33:41 08/05/03 Tue

I believe there is an alternate reality in which Buffy always had a sister, her name was Dawn, and other than that one little difference, everything else about Buffy's universe is the same. I believe the monks drew from that alternate reality (whether they realized it or not) and took that reality's Dawn - snatched her from that other reality, and replaced her with the green energy orb.

As I understand you, Dawn as she appeared in Season 5 was just a real regular sister of Buffy's from an alternate dimension not a green energy orb. If this is your theory I see a problem. Several beings were able to recognize her as not really being there and just being a ball of green energy-- all the Glory mind sucked victims and the snake thing Glory conjured. Per Giles journal, which Spike and Dawn read together, mentally disturbed (psychotic?) people could recognize that Dawn was energy.

My problem with Dawn's story is post-Glory did anyone still see a difference? Was there still a difference? I have the impression that once the temporal window of opportunity closed she somehow lost her green energy status and became a totally normal person. Maybe there was some transformation when her energy was used to open the walls between dimensions; maybe the energy part of her was used up and she became a regular person.

[> [> More fun with this crazy idea... -- ZachsMind, 06:30:31 08/06/03 Wed

It's really all a matter of perception. Millenia ago, Man would look out at the sky and see that the moon and the sun appeared to be equally powerful entities, one ruling the night and one ruling the day. They perceived these celestial bodies as gods. Today we know the moon is a vrey large rock and the sun is a mass of incandescent gas. What if tomorrow a scientist learned something about them that we didn't know yesterday? I don't know what. Some irrefutable proof that both the sun and the moon are on some curious level, sentient (say, moreso than dolphins but less than humans, for example). Our perception would again change.

Hypothetically speaking, what the crazies saw was Dawn's pandimensional counterpart, to which she was connected, and still is, in the alternate reality adjacent to her own. The realities are so close together that 'touched' people with affected minds can get glimpses into them both, and would at times have difficulty differentiating, since they're looking at things from a distorted point of view. They can't see alternate realities all the time, but in the proximity of someone like Dawn who is a dimensional anomaly, they are affected. Glory's presence in the city would further exacerbate dimensional distortions, being a powerful anomaly herself.

Remember that even as late as the season six finale, Dark Willow admitted seeing what Dawn really is, and threatened changing her back. From the perspective of people only seeing one reality, even people as powerful as Glory or Dark Willow, it appears from their perspective that they'd be changing her from a normal human into green energy. However, (theoretically) what's actually happening is a dimensional transference, not a transmutation.

It's further possible that deep down, Glory understood a part of this, but couldn't comprehend enough of it without going insane, Despite her power, she could not grapple interdimensional physics as it applied to her directly. To her it was not unlike calculating the buoyancy factors of water as she was drowning in it, which might have contributed to her growing madness.

A thought on "Dirty Girls" -- Elenphant, 19:27:34 08/05/03 Tue

While watching it for the first time when it was on tonight, something occurred to me. Caleb made a Cain and Abel reference when everybody was fighting in the vineyard. It suddenly struck me that, in Steinbeck's "East of Eden," the story was based on the story of Cain and Abel. In the book, there are two brothers who oppose one another. Caleb is the name of the Cain analogue, and Aaron is Abel. The story is in large part about Caleb's journey of redemption. There is also the idea that it is necessary for everyone to have a little darkness in them, otherwise one is overwhelmed by the evils of the world and cannot function properly. Aaron dies because he was TOO good. In this, I am thinking that Faith's character and some of her dialogue with Spike fits with this idea (in fact, much of the 7th season in general). It has been many years since I've read the book, but was there a vineyard in the story? Also, some of the talk between Buffy!First and Caleb reminded me a little of the narrative descriptions of the mother (Kate? Catherine?) of the two brothers in the book.

-Elenphant

An alternate universe Buffy? -- Cheryl, 19:53:09 08/05/03 Tue

I just read a little bit of trivia that said Christian Kane had auditioned for the part of Riley Finn. This got me to thinking about other casting decisions that were made and how this may have impacted the success of Buffy.

I have the unaired pilot with the other Willow. I know that SMG originally auditioned for the role of Cordy and that Julie Benz auditioned for Buffy. After seven seasons itís near impossible to envision the show with different actors playing these parts, as much as I love all of them. Julie Benz was (is?) wonderful as Darla and I loved Christian Kane as Lindsey. Riley is one of my favorite characters (I know, Iím in the minority), as played by Marc Blucas so I canít even imagine CK playing Riley. After seeing the other Willow, I am SO glad ME found AH. And can anyone picture someone other than SMG as Buffy? After just writing this it occurred to me that Tabula Rasa might have been even more interesting if each character woke up thinking they were one of the other characters. Picture Giles thinking he was Spike or Dawn thinking she was Anya. No, maybe better to not go there. ;-0

So, what is it these actors bring to their characters that makes us love (or hate) them so much? Strength, vulnerability, comedic timing, honesty, integrity . . . ? What makes them jump off the page and become real?

For example, with JM and Spike I think JM brings a great deal of vulnerability and sweetness to the character ñ otherwise how could I possibly like him so much and root for him? And then thereís that smoking sensuality and comedic flare.

With NB and Xander the first thing that comes to mind is comedic timing and insecurity, but as the character and actor grew (NB didnít have much acting experience in the beginning), heís become stronger and more confident ñ and because we watched NB/Xander ìgrow upî itís believable. When I watch the first couple seasons now and compare his character/performance to later seasons, I think thereís a very marked difference.

With Riley and MB I just love the kind of dorky jock who is really good at what he does and is sincere and vulnerable. And since Iíve seen MB play similar roles in movies, I just think these are traits he has. I canít picture Kane playing dorky jock hero Riley.

One of ME's strengths is finding good actors to bring their characters to life. That's why they reuse the good ones they find.

This is all off the top of my head, so I know Iím not articulating well what it is that draws me to them. I have to give it some serious thought, but Iíd love to know what others think.

[> The One That Could Have Been -- cjl, 20:20:39 08/05/03 Tue

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (WB; 60 min.) - Buffy, the one girl in the world chosen to fight vampires, and her newfound friends face the threat of the Master, a vampire lord who threatens their hometown of Sunnydale.

Cast:

BUFFY - Julie Benz
WILLOW - Riff Reagan
CORDELIA - Bianca Lawson
XANDER - Danny Strong
GILES - James Marsters

I know--weird, huh? Would we still be watching after S1? Could Riff Reagan have pulled off S2 Willow? Would there be B/G fanfic flooding the 'net if James played Giles and Julie played Buffy? (Probably.) Interesting to think about...

[> [> Musical chairs -- Cheryl, 21:16:58 08/05/03 Tue

Cast:

BUFFY - Julie Benz
WILLOW - Riff Reagan
CORDELIA - Bianca Lawson
XANDER - Danny Strong
GILES - James Marsters

I had actually been trying to picture Danny Strong as Oz earlier. :-)

Did Bianca Lawson audition for the Buffy role?

What if Robin Sachs (Ethan) had been cast as Giles? An edgier, less stuffy Giles? Although I can't really picture that Giles with Jenny.

Juliet Landau as Cordelia? Charisma Carpenter as Willow? Kristine Sutherland as Jenny?

Someone wake me from this nightmare!!!

[> [> Am I really out of the loop? Did JM audition for Giles??! -- btvsk8, 05:02:12 08/06/03 Wed

[> [> [> Nah. Just me foolin'. DS was never up for Xander, either. The other 3 are legit. -- cjl, 06:37:40 08/06/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Correction. DS did audition for Xander. And Jesse. See below. -- cjl, 09:07:11 08/06/03 Wed

[> The signpost up ahead, your next stop? The Slayer Zone -- ZachsMind, 21:32:36 08/05/03 Tue

Here's a recasting I think would be fun to have seen...

BUFFY - Charisma Carpenter
WILLOW - Amber Benson
XANDER - Danny Strong
ANGEL - James Marsters
FAITH - Juliet Landau
OZ - Tom Lenk
GILES - Robin Sachs
THE MASTER - Anthony Stewart Head
SPIKE - Nicholas Brendon
DRUSILLA - Alyson Hannigan
HARMONY - Sarah Michelle Gellar
GLORY - Mercedes McNabb

Joyce, Dawn, and everybody else played by the same people, but Dawn's written in from year one, which would be a full 22 episodes, and incorporate The Mayor in it more. By the season finale, The Master, The Mayor and Glorificus would all be incorporated simultaneously.

Buffy would die and come back to life in the season premiere, thanks to the kiss of life by Xander. This would trigger Faith's entrance before Christmas. Basically the first three years condensed into one, but not in a way that exhausts the big bads by season's end. The Master, The Mayor and Glorificus would each be in the picture until Graduation Day, at times working together and at times fighting one another while Buffy flip flopped between trying to take them down and barely surviving everything getting thrown at her.

It'd be like "Buffy Extreme Sports."

[> Christian Kane and Marc Blucas -- HonorH, 22:09:44 08/05/03 Tue

originally auditioned for each other's parts. Imagining CK as Riley, I think of a more cerebral, less physical Riley who has more of a dark edge to begin with. Plus that sweet little drawl.

Imagining MB as Lindsey, OTOH, leads to a Lindsey who's more physical, more willing to hit back when Angel hits him. I imagine a Lindsey who's outwardly sweet--who's fully capable of looking and acting like Captain America--while calculating the best way to stab you in the back.

In other words, coulda been fun!

[> [> CK as Riley is my most intriguing might-have-been -- KdS, 04:15:12 08/06/03 Wed

Season 5 might have been very different. I suspect a Kane Riley would have been far less willing to bottle his feelings up and let Buffy sideline him until he exploded, and have been a far more serious rival for Spike.

[> [> [> Re: CK as Riley is my most intriguing might-have-been -- Cheryl, 11:29:19 08/06/03 Wed

I've only seen Season 1 Lindsey and am anxiously waiting for the Season 2 DVDs to come out (soon, right?). So these takes on CK as Riley are interesting to me because I haven't seen how CK/Lindsey develops yet.

[> Danny Strong as Jesse -- pellenaka, 08:53:51 08/06/03 Wed

Danny Strong originally auditioned for the role of Jesse after having a line in the unaired pilot. According to what Nicholas Brendon told him, the role was written for DS. Good thing he didn't get it.

It's a very good, long interview. This excert is from page 4. You can read it from the beginning here: http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/403/403660p1.html?fromint=1

STRONG: The original pilot. So here's the deal. I auditioned to be Xander, for the casting director, and I did not get a call back. About two months later, maybe it was a little bit less, she called me in to read for some of the bit parts. Okay, I know exactly when this was ñ this was June of '96, because I had just graduated from college and I was flat broke. I mean, flat broke, you know? So she brought me in for some bit parts, and I read three different one-line roles for Joss, even though I didn't know it was Joss at the time ñ it was just some guy in the room. He seemed like a nice guy. He really liked one of them, and he gave me the part. So I had one line in the pilot presentation, and I was thrilled because it was, like, I got $600 and it was like the sky had opened up and rained money upon me, you know? It was like, "I'm rich!" I couldn't believe it. So we did the pilot presentation, I had one line, and they all really liked it. I just remember, after we shot the line, everybody came up to me and was like, "Joss thought you were hilarious. That was really funny." I was like, "Okay. It was just one line, but if you guys laughed, good." Then I started running into Nick Brendon all over town. True story. I ran into him like six times, and he kept saying, "Yeah, Joss is going to write you an episode, he loved you so much. Everybody talks about you all the time, of the guy who said the line, and they're going to write you an episode." I couldn't believe it, right? I couldn't even believe it when he recognized me when I ran into him the first time. He was like, "You're Danny Strong, right?" Like, he knew my name. So then they get picked up and they start shooting their new pilot, which I don't remember when that was ñ I think that was in '97, or that was late in '96, maybe?

IGNFF: That was late '96.

STRONG: Yeah, that was the fall of '96. So I got a call that I had an audition for Buffy, and I was so nervous, because this was the part that Nick Brendon had told me five times it was written for me. I went in, and it was the part of Jesse, and I auditioned and I gave a bad audition, and I did not get the part.

IGNFF: What's your definition of a bad audition?

STRONG: I was just too nervous.

IGNFF: So, in other words, Nick Brendon screwed you up.

STRONG: You know what, it wasn't just Nick ñ although that bastard did have it in for me ñ it was, like, people who knew Sarah had heard this as well. So I'd actually ended up hearing this from about four different people. Now, that part, actually, Eric Balfour got ñ and he dies in the pilot. He gets staked.

IGNFF: So you lucked out.

STRONG: So it actually worked out for me in the end ... I was just so upset at not getting the part, because it was the first time someone had written a role for me, or so I'd been told, and I couldn't get the part. I mean, talk about killing your ego. I mean, just depressing. So then they brought me in for another guest star about three months later, and I didn't get that part. I told myself that my hands were washed of Buffy. I was like, "I'm never doing this show, I never want to audition for this show ñ I hate them, I hate everybody. I hate you, Mom!" you know?

IGNFF: So you're like the prodigal son at this point...

STRONG: Yes, completely like it ñ just an angry little kid. Then I didn't hear from them again until the fall of '97, and they just offered me the role of Jonathan in "Inca Mummy Girl." That is the timeline.

IGNFF: So what was the process? Did they call you up every couple of months and say, "Hey, there's something for Jonathan..."?

STRONG: Yes. That's exactly how it was for a while. They'd just sort of call me and they'd put you on "AVAIL" for certain dates. They'd just say, "We want to put Danny on hold for these dates, because we may use him on the show." And it was basically a series of snappy one-liners, you know? They just kept bringing me back and bringing me back and they thought it was fun, and I certainly could've used the cash ñ it worked out nicely for all.

IGNFF: So many times your character could have been killed and wasn't.

STRONG: Yeah, well, that became the joke, I think, for them. Because there was a couple of episodes where it wasn't even Jonathan in the script ñ it was just 'student' ñ and it was like, "Oh, let's have Danny Strong do it." I know David Greenwalt ñ so he's told me ñ that he was a big champion of me, and that he was always the one that, a number of them were his ideas to bring me in on... Which was great, you know?

IGNFF: To actually get assigned a name, that's definitely a move.

STRONG: Yeah, because the first one I did in "Inca Mummy Girl," it was Jonathan, and then certain ones it was just 'student.' I remember being a little offended, like, "I've got a name, people. It is Jonathan ñ can't they put that in the script?"

And there's lots more.

[> [> Very interesting, thanks! -- Cheryl, 11:27:01 08/06/03 Wed

What was Jasmine's use for Angelus and the Beast? -- Gomez, 08:39:41 08/06/03 Wed

So I'm wondering how Jasmine's master plan included the Beast and Angelus, since she was so desperate to have them, and pretty ticked off when those plans fell through. Were they just there to protect Cordelia until she gave birth? Or did they have a purpose post-Cordelia?

[> Think pregnancy and childbirth... -- ZachsMind, 09:29:46 08/06/03 Wed

Y'know in television whenever there's an impending childbirth and there's characters on screen who want to be helpful but are just in the way? The one person who actually knows what they're doing and has a game plan turns to the interfering characters and tells them to go get hot water or clean towels or something like that, right?

Well, in Jasmine's plans, The Beast was hot water and Angelus was clean towels. They kept the other characters busy and out of the way long enough for her to get herself outta Cordy's oven. In fact, I don't think it was Jasmine's intention to keep Angelus desouled. He was probably easier to keep under control after Jasmine was fully realized. Otherwise she would have tried harder to make Angel really happy again in order to permanently desoul him.

Also keep in mind that Jasmine was kinda like BtVS's s.5 Glorificus. Any godlike entity, realized in human form, suffers from various human limitations. Jasmine may not have actually had a plan, per se, but instead a goal of global domination through forced psychological peace. Any and all actions were a means to an end.

It's the War Of The Worlds plotline. This terrible power comes to Earth and threatens to destroy lifekind, but the very foibles and weaknesses of humanity also adversely affect the invading body in a manner which it had not predicted. For Jasmine, things like vanity, mistrust, guilt and emotional confusion came into play towards the end. She had this ideal and felt she was in the right. She would make everybody peaceful if it killed her. The needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. In return for bringing global harmony, she'd skip 10% of humanity off the top. To her it seemed a very sensible compromise.

Something humans and demonic influences do have in common, rationalizing the irrational. Ultimately this too led to her downfall. Well, that and the severed head.. AND both Connor & Angel kicking her nubile ass.

Beyond that explanation, if it still doesn't make any sense, take a page from Joel & the 'bots: "Just repeat to yourself it's just a show, you should really just relax." =)

[> [> I absolutely love this analogy! -- Sheri, 20:11:21 08/06/03 Wed

[> Problems with the Cordy/Jasmine/Beast plotline -- cjl, 10:09:59 08/06/03 Wed

We dealt with this question on the board three weeks ago during TCH's Season 4 wrap-up, without reaching a satisfying resolution to the debate. Here was my (deflation-devalued) two cents:

"Give momma some sugar" and other musings on the Cordy/Beast/Jasmine question -- cjl, 11:30:12 07/17/03 Thu

The relationship between Cordy, Jasmine and the Beast is one of those grey areas during Season 4 that tends to hurt the more I think about it. Give a simple explanation--Jasmine is the Savior!--and I'm fine. Dig deep into questions of motivation and practicality, and we're in trouble. Let's look at a number of possible motivations for the Rain of Fire and some of the other bizarre events in the middle of S4:

1. THE BIG DISTRACTION. The Rain of Fire and all the other disasters sent Team Angel scrambling like rats for half the season, and kept them from seeing the real danger incubating under their very noses. If you buy this theory, Jasmine (or Cordy-as-Jasmine) wanted the Fang Gang to bring out Angelus so Angel wouldn't organize the group and take out Cordelia prematurely. (If Willow didn't intervene, Jasmine herself would have converted Angelus back to Angel, and the events of "Shiny Happy People" onward would have unfolded as told.)

The distraction theory only works, though, if you absolutely insist that Cordelia had to be with the Fang Gang at all times. Look at it this way: if Jasmine has been the power behind the power of everything that's happened to Angel and crew since (at least) "The Trial," her manipulations have been SUBTLE. The rain of fire, blotting out the sun and all the other catastrophes were anything but. C-as-J could have achieved the same results by precipitating a small, domestic crisis within the FG, manipulating Connor into bed, and then DISAPPEARING FOR TWO MONTHS. (It's not like she hasn't disappeared before.) Cordelia could have bid her friends a tearful goodbye (saying she's stressed-out, "confused" and "betrayed" by her teammates and the PTB), then vanished to a mountain retreat somewhere, and given birth to Jasmine quietly, without Angel nearly decapitating her on delivery. They wouldn't have even known Cordelia was pregnant.

The Big Distraction, on the other hand, drew a lot of unwanted attention anyway, and Angel nearly stopped the birth of Jasmine in both Players and Inside Out. (Side note: Angel's decision to kill Cordy in I/O should have been one of the most dramatic moments of the season, but Jeff Bell underplayed it. Odd.)

Of course, if C-as-J went the quiet route, we wouldn't have had Charisma Carpenter around at all. (No comments, please.)

2. JASMINE AS SAVIOR. This was hinted at during the cocktail party in Players, but it was never emphasized. When Jasmine came on the scene in SHP, Joss and Co. emphasized that she was rescuing the populace of L.A. from the general miseries of the Human Condition, not from the badness of the previous ten episodes. It would have made things a lot easier for everyone watching if Jasmine took credit for saving humanity from the crises she created, but that would have tipped her not-so-pure intentions to the audience, and ME decided not to go there.

Even if you ignore the "tip the hand" plot tripwire, choice #2 still has the same basic problem as #1: The events from AN/RoF on drew too much attention to themselves. Jasmine may have wanted to act as the Savior of Humankind, but the flashy, apocalyptic disasters almost got her killed before she was even born. A quiet, uneventful birth wouldn't have changed much: she still would have been greeted as Humanity's Savior, even without the disasters she created.

3. THE UNIVERSE HAS RULES. Given the ritualistic nature of the summoning of the rain of fire, Lilah's murder, the blotting out of the sun, and the virgin sacrifice, I had the vague impression for awhile that all of these "ceremonies" were necessary preludes to the birth of Jasmine--that is, she physically could not have entered the universe without these events coming to pass. However, once Jasmine herself arrived, the whole sequence of events was dismissed as "birth pains" and the issue was dropped. I think this particular theory might have worked better than the other two, but we're never gonna know.

[> [> Why I think idea II works -- KdS, 15:44:09 08/06/03 Wed

My personal opinion is that Jasmine-as-Saviour was what she planned, but that events transpired to stop her from carrying out her plan to the extent that she intended. Remember that the Beast's Master (using this term to avoid getting into the whole Jasmine/Cordy mess) asked him to create the one weapon that could harm him as an offering. The most obvious explanation of the reason for this is that Jasmine was planning to have the Beast create havoc until her birth, and then kill him spectacularly and publically herself to establish herself as Saviour. Unfortunately, the Master failed to realise the extent of Angelus's desire not to play second fiddle to anyone.

With the Beast dead, the Master tried to recruit Angelus as replacement causer of mayhem. Unfortunately, Angelus wouldn't play (possibly because he realised the implications of having the Beast create the weapon, and that he would end up dead as the climax of the plan). When Willow resouled Angelus, Jasmine's birth was already imminent, and the Master decided to concentrate on the birth and have Jasmine take over LA with raw power rather than any violent demonstration. As it was, her power was sufficient that she could paint herself simply as a spiritual saviour without establishing herself by any of the temporal actions intended in the orginal plan.

[> [> [> asked him? -- anom, 22:56:31 08/06/03 Wed

"Remember that the Beast's Master...asked him to create the one weapon that could harm him as an offering."

I don't remember her asking him for it--certainly not specifically for that kind of offering. When the Beast offered the knife, "forged from my unworthy bones," it seemed to come out of nowhere. Unless I missed a scene.

[> [> [> [> I sought of assumed because it seemed such an odd thing to do. Then again, demons are weird. -- KdS, 04:26:28 08/07/03 Thu

[> [> I kinda lean towards #3 -- Kenny, 20:42:33 08/06/03 Wed

But I don't think any of those things necessarily have to happen. I think one of the reasons the PTB don't take a more active role is that this type of thing happens. In my mind, the one "rule" is that prolonged communication between the powers in the higher plane and mortals in the lower one is unnatural. Messages get confused. Cordy has painful, sometimes cryptic, visions. Oracles, Loas, and Eyes speak in riddles.

And just imagine one coming to earth. So, yeah, I think they were "birth pains" (Jasmine treated them as such, and I'm inclined to believe her), but not specific ones that had to be acclompished for Jasmine to be born.

[> [> Could the Bugverse offer a clue? -- Darby, 07:43:20 08/07/03 Thu

The insect / arachnoids were trying to entice Jasmine to return, unsuccessfully (even though they knew her true name). Were any clues to necessary conditions given?

Personally, I think Jasmine's love grew / twisted out of pain, mistrust, and desperation, and those conditions had to be maximized to allow her access to Angel's LA. The Beast's mission was to eliminate threats and sow despair by blotting out the sun, which never spread as far as everyone expected it to.

[> A few flaws in her plan -- Gomez, 06:28:40 08/07/03 Thu

After checking the archives (forgive those of us in Australia who are a few months behind the US schedule) on the related subject, there are still a few quibbles (yes, I know it's a tv show, the writers are entitled to a few liberties, but still....)

Cordelia/Jasmine put herself in harms way a few times by opening the cage to release Angelus (and any sane vampire would kill her, or have a snack), then remained at the hotel while Angelus was on the loose. She knew his history, and his tactics. And while it did provide an opportunity to kill Lilah, she didn't seem to employ any method to deter Angelus from killing Cordelia. No cross, holy water, mind control, magic, etc.

And I'll accept that Jasmine intended to destroy the Beast after her birth (a point I hadn't considered), and bring back the sunlight, but if her master plan was down to stalling, wouldn't it have been easier to lock the gang in seperate cages? I'll admit that the easiest option would be to have a sniper pick them all off, but that kinda destroys the show.

And when Angel told Cordelia to run back to her boyfriend, and she seemed shocked, was that merely for Angel's super hearing? Or maybe Jasmine was, at that stage, mostly in her subconscious, and we saw Cordelia with an alien presence making just a few of her decisions, and then sitting back to let Cordelia deal with the consequences.

Either way, it might have been nice for someone on the show to have cleared these things up. But they may not be able to see the forest from the trees. Oh well.

The Puppet Show- a Buffy landmark -- Tchaikovsky, 08:49:37 08/06/03 Wed

Although a mixture of laziness and admiration of Darby and manwitch has hitherto stopped me from posting in these nostalgia threads, I feel I should put in a few good words, for the genius of 'The Puppet Show', a Season One keeper which is often overlooked, but hits on the exactly right notes to make it the funniest episode of the mini-Season, and a prototype for the Espenson comedies which would sparkle through the later series. Jane would have been proud of this one herself.

Some marvellous moments:

-The beginning has the introduction of Snyder- one of those characters who, while remarkably grotesque, was never quite a cariacature while we remember Principals of our college days. If he knew what it meant, I'm sure Snyder would knock Flutie and Wood into a cocked hat. And it's this groundwork which allows the later writers, (notably Greenwalt in 'School Hard', Whedon in 'Becoming' and Espenson in 'Band Candy') to expand into a character that we are eventually sad to see being eaten by a snake, (even if with a twinge bemused schadenfreude).

-And Snyder's use at the start of the episode nicely subverts an oft-used cliche in Season One of Buffy- the teasing of a powerless Giles by the kids, (oh, and they really were just kids back in those days). Makes you all dewy-eyed. Here, Giles gets his own back in spectacular fashion.

-Xander is really, really funny in this episode, in an entirely hapless way that he would perfect later. His talent for nuanced physical comedy shines through here, particularly in his scenes with Sid.

-When watching the episode for the first time, it seems that this is another sappy predictable plot, for which the end can be spied a mile off. Sid is evil, yaddy, yaddy yaddah. But it isn't that. It's yet another, and a classic, ME subversion. For scary puppet guy, read proto-Holtz. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether, during Quickening, anybody drew the parallels. Amusingly, it is Holtz or Holz=Wood who comes to play the part of the very wooden puppet later, and with fearsome, deliberately ambiguous force. In the world of Sid, it is a more simple job. Remember that this is the the pre-'Lie To Me' Buffyverse, and while we're no means in Charmed land, there's no doubt that the preying mantis, Moloch and the monster whom Sid is hunting is evil.

-And yet, despite all this, Sid's death is somewhat saddening- the end of a quest that has taken him years. Death haunts Buffy form its earliest moments. We have Jesse, then Flutie, then Sid, and finally the prospect of Buffy's death in Prophecy Girl, a directorial debut from Whedon, which, in straight thematic story-telling terms, he barely matches again. Here death is a bittersweet thing- a Nicholas Flamel of relief and yet still that loss. And of such a new, suspicious friend.

And yet we are left with the stupendous Oedipus Rex to keep us giggling. This is a pre-echo of Willow's beautiful dream in Whedon's finest creation Restless, and Snyder's totally clueless 'Avant-garde?' would work as a gentle self-deprecation for Cowboy Guy and the rest. And yet here the talen show is more simply just an emobodimant of the exhibitionism of high school. The need to consistently flaunt yourself, and to have a talent that nobody else has. Of course, for those who's talents aren't naturally performed, it is not long until they alight on something truly horrifying. Cordelia, the ultimate high school Queen, being dreadful at singing is a nice joke. And the song she sings is brought back six seasons later on a whole different show. Everything except the deepest inside of Cordelia had changed, but there's still that beautiful consistency.

And it's that consistency which makes 'The Puppet Show' such a good watch. The fatigued Buffy of Season Seven, the carpenter Xander, and the Goddess Willow are all recognisable from back here. Like old friends, they seem, once we've talked to them for a while, and had the pleasure of their company, not to have changed all that much. What we were, remember, informs all that we become, and the Buffy to whose face a smile begins to creep at the end of Chosen has been informed by all these episodes, so various, and so fun. Underlying Sid is an archetype of what Buffy might become, at least in her own fearful consciousness- someone desperately attacking one demon, even if with those spiffy put-downs. Even this early, we can see how the resolution in Chosen profoundly affects Buffy's life, giving her release but not complete regression to her childhood self.

It's episodes liek 'The Puppet Show' which allow us to understand the greatness of 'The Body', the poorness of 'She', and the general quality of the series. It is an average episode which in most other television would be super. It is something of a reminder of what we still don't quite believe we deserve.

TCH

[> Excellent (in best Burns voice) -- Yellow Bear, 10:33:52 08/06/03 Wed

[> Hey, TCH, want to start a "Buffy" Odyssey? -- Masq, 13:36:27 08/06/03 Wed

You'd have fans!

[> [> Well, here's one plan -- Tchaikovsky, 14:02:43 08/06/03 Wed

I don't think I could keep up with an episode every week for Buffy- one of the wonderful things about Angel was that it was all at my own pace, but also that I was fascinated by the old what-happens-next factor, which won't occur so much with reviewing (in both senses) Buffy. It happens to an extent, because, as people who've read my posts for any length of time know, I routinely mess up the accurate details of plot. My mind wonders in themes and references, for some reason.

But what I was thinking of doing, was writing a review for every episode that's made me cry. Now, I've just watched the Lion King, and I don't know if it's just me, but I cried three times. It's a tremendous film. So there are many episodes- ie

Prophecy Girl
Innocence
Passion
I Only Have Eyes For You
Becoming
Amends
Choices (that end always gets me)
The Prom
etc etc etc

Then I could pick and choose a bit. I could call it Sob Stories, or something.

TCH

[> [> [> Cool! -- Masq, 14:34:57 08/06/03 Wed

Those are some of my favorite eps!

I Did Post As a Response -- Rina, 10:27:34 08/06/03 Wed

[Don't leave. I think the mistake you made was to post what appears to be a response to a specific post as a new message
thread. Thus, the pronouns "you" and "your" which, I think, refer to the poster or posters to whom you are responding, sound like you are criticising the entire board. You should have made your post as a response to a specific post, rather than posting it as a new message.]

One, I'm not leaving.

Two, I did post my original message as a response. This is the second or third time I had posted a response on this board and it ended up as a new post. And I don't know why.

[> This might depend on where you're posting. -- Rob, 10:35:41 08/06/03 Wed

When you want to respond to a post, have you been writing your response in the form on the bottom of the page of that particular post you want, or in a "new message" form? You have to make sure when you want to respond to a post that the form you fill out says "Post a reply to this message" at the top, not "post a new message." Have you been doing that?

Rob

masq. - Are we going to see 'Home' any time soon? -- Yellow Bear, 10:29:41 08/06/03 Wed

I don't wish to be a pain but I was just wondering?

Now, I'll sit here and try to be a goog, patient little boy.

[> Sorry. Haven't posted in awhile and messed that up. -- Yellow Bear, 10:31:55 08/06/03 Wed

[> [> Goog? I meant good. Clearly, my morning for the typo. -- Yellow Bear, 10:40:40 08/06/03 Wed

[> Oy, you had to ask! -- Masq, 11:43:27 08/06/03 Wed

I know I have been terribly slow with this episode analysis. A lot of personal stuff is my only excuse. I figure I have a good two months (slightly less than two months) remaining before I MUST get that puppy up.

But it will be there. I'm nothing if not completely anal about stuff like that. ; )

[> [> Great! I've been wondering myself -- Random, 11:52:13 08/06/03 Wed

[> [> It's half-done -- Masq, 12:33:40 08/06/03 Wed

I've got everything written, even the ~~Joss-forsaken~~ Connor bits. Most everything still needs to be edited to a reasonable, comprehensible size, formatted, and hyper-linked.

The thing I'm still struggling over is the parts where I need fan quotations. I saved some fan quotes from back then, but I still go mental when I read them (naturally, they're on the whole Connor issue).

It's been difficult for me to give my usual fair-minded, disinterested analysis of this one. What would really help is to read a really thoughtfully-written argument that Angel did the right thing where Connor is concerned, one that isn't dismissive of the character of Connor. Because all I can see is that Connor was not given the same chance every other character in the Buffyverse gets to redeem himself as he is. He got erased and written over.

That's the one chunk of my analysis that's missing.

[> [> [> Re: Connor -- Miyu tVP, 13:34:47 08/06/03 Wed

Look at me - all de-lurking. I'm new! Please don't rip on me too bad. :)

Connor was not given a chance to redeem himself *yet*. I'm not convinced this is over.

As a side note "redemption" comes from Latin meaning "buy back." The biblical analogy of redemption came from the real life process of being being bought out of slavery (or debt, ransom) by someone. The idea being that redemption is possible through a 3rd party (which in the bible is of course god). Maybe *Angel*'s sacrifice has paved the way for Connor's redemption? Angel literally exchanged quid pro quo - I'll join W&H (and forfeit my paternal feelings) if Connor is freed from his pain. He paid a price on behalf of Connor who couldn't do it for himself.

I hesitate to say that because it undermines the idea of personal responsibility and self-redemption. But in Connor's case, it seems that the outside world has imposed on him a boatload of crap to deal with, when he was too young to have dealt with it properly. Angel's wiping of the slate is not so much absolution for his wrongs, but giving him a chance to grow into his own (healthy) person, and THEN redeem himself.

In real life, I have a hard time holding up a high moral/emotional standard to someone who suffered severe abuse early in life. Like someone rolling there eyes at me bc I can't speak Japanese - no one taught me, so how on earth would I be excpected to know it? Connor grew up in a hell dimension, so how can one realistically expect him to "know" trust, respect, emotional attachment, responsibility? Angel wants him to have a chance to learn these things. It is rather clearly stated in the episode that everything Angel is doing is for the sake of his son. (sort of like Buffy stepping in for Dawn in the Gift? Not that Dawn was guilty, but just the idea of intervening.)

???

Looking forward to your Home analysis!

[> [> [> The "Help Masq finish her 'Home' analysis challenge" above -- Masq, 14:32:30 08/06/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Hey, Masq: Here's some pro Angel's choice posts -- shadowkat (delurking briefly to help Masq), 20:00:54 08/06/03 Wed

Hey - I found this over at Angel's Soul Board - they range from VERY pro Angel's decision to semi-pro Angel. It's a spoiler board so you may not frequent it very often.

Here's the url for the discussion:

http://www.voy.com/14810/133002103.html

Here's the pro-posts:

[> Oooo, I started reading then all the words blurred. Let's see .... -- Phaedra, 20:43:15 08/06/03 Wed (24-56-195-222.mdmmi.voyager.net/24.56.195.222)

I don't think of it as a failure when Angel didn't stop Wes/Holtz from kidnapping Conner. And shame on any of us that think that!! OMG Can you imagine the pain and torture parents of kidnapped children go through. This was not a failure as a parent, but a tragic, tragic event.

And how many parents have tried to save the "souls" of children that commit suicide. All the questions that go through you head - what could I have done to stop it, make it better, do differently! AGAIN, not a failure to not save his soul? (where did that come from), just an unfortunate event that may never have been deterred no matter what Angel did as a parent.

Why the hell does anyone think that Conner ending up in a loving family home with a college future, parents that are proud of him, a girlfriend that was going to get into the same college is a bad thing? All good in my book. Angel had one chance to make better the hurt and pain that was Conner's life. I think he knew in his dead heart that a future with him was not the normal, loving type future that he wanted for his son. So he made a wish in exchange for a favor. I do not think it was bad. Parents sacrifice for their children all the time.

Angel should be commended, not condemned. He did the best he could with the circumstances he was given. I feel for both of them. In the end, I think Conner is in a better place and Angel, in a very loving way, provided that for him.

Me, I never want to see Conner's story dragged through the mud ever again. I think he's suffered and fought and been disappointed enough for his young life. I totally agree with Andromeda here: "But the needs of the child should be paramount." Everything else is so self-centered.

*pant*, *pant* Ok, I'll stop now.

;-P

http://www.voy.com/14810/133002103.html

[> Re: Why Angel really gave Connor up -- Andromeda, 20:16:31 08/06/03 Wed (cache-rl01.proxy.aol.com/152.163.252.225)

It may have been unfair to force total strangers to include Connor in their family; but really, it's exactly the same thing the monks did to Joyce and Buffy.

The idea is that it's the best thing for the child; and that's still a criteria that the courts use in custody and support cases today.

Is it best for everyone?
Well, no.
But the needs of the child should be paramount.

[> Actually that reminds me of something -- Esmerelda, 18:06:44 08/06/03 Wed (inktomi3-ren.server.ntl.com/62.252.128.6)

their is an arguement that Conner was to far gone to be helped, someting I personally strongly disagree with, no one, cetainly not an 18 year old, is so far gone there beyond being helped, although I agree, you need to want to be helped first, anyway my point is in the mall, when Conner asked what Angel was going to do about it, that to me sounded like a cry for help, and not the kind that results in his throat being cut, it sounded like a genuine effort to ask for Angel's help, not to kill himslef, but to get better. However, Angel in his panic, a panic I understand, didnt catch it.

At the end of the day, while I understand why Angel did what he did, and think is what many parents would do, it was wrong. He went for a quick solotion, not for his convience, but to spare Conner more pain, the thing about quick solotions when it comes to this stuff, it never works.

[> Re: Why Angel really gave Connor up -- Dottie, 17:57:59 08/06/03 Wed (cache-rl01.proxy.aol.com/152.163.252.225)

What happened to Connor was not Angel's fault. No one can predict and control everything that happens in a harsh and cruel world. There were some very strong forces acting against Angel, and he did the best he could to deal with them. He fought for his son all the way, and never turned his back on him. He treated that boy with patience, kindness, and love. But Connor was a mess, and under the circumstances, I don't know what else Angel could have done to fix him. You can't help someone if he won't LET YOU. Connor *REJECTED* his father's love. So Angel made a desperate sacrifice to save the boy the only way he thought he could. So it's not fair to keep blaming Angel."

I'll post my own views: both sides after this message.
Hope it helps. SK

[> [> [> [> [> Here's my view and anothers - it's pro Angel -- s'kat (continued from above), 20:50:34 08/06/03 Wed

After Home ended, I talked to my mother about the episode over the phone. She had a completely different take from most people, including myself, hopefully I can remember how she put it. My writing has been off lately, hence the lack of posting. Emotions/RL getting in the way. But I continue to lurk and read. ;-)

At any rate this is what my mother said regarding Angel's decision combined with my own embellishment. My mother believed Angel made the right choice. The selfless choice.
She saw what he did as a tremendous gift of compassion for his son. Giving him up. Obliterating himself and his taint from his son's life, so his son could have the normal life.
So his son could live and make choices based on a good environment as opposed to an environment that was negative not because of anything Connor did, but the legacy his parents left him. By erasing himself, Darla, Holtz, Cordy from Connor's life and inserting a normal family - Angel gave Connor the ability to have a life of his own choosing, not the life Angel himself chose.

According to my mother:
Angel made the only decision he could under the circumstances. It was probably the most self-less decision he ever made. And it was an incredibly hard one.

Here was his son - who he could not realistically ever be a father to, after all Angel is a vampire. He can't hold his son in the light. He can't give his son peace. This is shown early on in Provider and Couplet - where we see Angel envying Groos ability to be in light. Or when Angel attempts to rush his son to the hospital through the daylight, but has to hand him over to Cordelia. His own
horrible condition taints his son - makes his son feel like a monster.

As they lived, his son had no true choices. He didn't choose Quotorth. He didn't choose to fight. He didn't choose Holtz. He didn't even really get to choose a name.
Steven was thrust on him by Holtz. Connor by Angel. Both symbolic of the father forcing his will on the son. In contrast: both Angel and later Spike - choose their own names and with those names their own existence. Connor never had that chance.

Connor wanted a family. In this way, he is very much like yet very different from Angel. Angel seeks family only to destroy it - since he keeps wanting to be the head of the family but can't quite become it, because of his own struggle/need for approval and unresolved feelings with his father. Connor doesn't want to be the head, so much as to be a part of one. Connor doesn't require his father's approval so much as his father's love. His father's time. A family's love. This was his deepest wish. It is the reason he did what he did with Cordelia. And it is how EvilCordy was able to control him. She knew that was Connor's achilees heel. Those of us who have close families probably can't quite appreciate this need.

In the episode (Long Day's Journey or Soulless?) where they go to the priestesses' house and find everyone slaughtered - Connor is devastated by the death and destruction and mentions to Cordelia that what bothered him the most was the note regarding Dad's Birthday on the fridge...this was a family. It was the one thing he wanted. The one thing he revers and loves most. He refers to this desire again in Shiny Happy People (I believe) where he tells Angel how Holtz tied him to a tree in Quortorth as a child - and ran off, his assignment to hunt and track Holtz. Connor - craved the family - but Jasmine doesn't give it to him, not really, Cordy is in a coma and everyone is blessed with believing the lie, but Connor. Connor can see through it. So even with Jasmine - Connor is outside the group, deprived of being a shiny happy person. He is still fighting.

Why does Connor snap in Home? What sets him off? He's helping a man on a rooftop until he discovers the man had abandoned his family, his wife, his children, and Connor loses it completely. Why, he wonders, would someone give up their family?? We often wonder why someone else takes for granted that which we greatly desire. We resent them in our envy. Connor's envy for the shiny happy people overwhelms him, his rage and self-hate eats at him. He believes he doesn't deserve a family or a good life. And he begins to project that rage on to the people at the shopping mall - wanting to destroy them, himself and Cordelia. Because maybe, just maybe if I destroy it - it won't hurt so much.
Rage is a funny thing. It burns through us. Causing us to lash out blindly. Wanting to destroy everything in our path.
And when it's over? There's nothing left but despair and self-hatred, and remorse....until we're numb. Angel saw in Connor's eyes something very familar - an echo of his own rage. The rage that caused him to leave home, get seduced by a vampire and destroy his village, or when he lost his soul the first time - to attempt to destroy the world. Rage is something Angel knows all too well. He knows how it eats you alive and he knows that he put that rage into Connor. Not deliberately, perhaps, but he did it all the same. Or at least helped.

So when he sees Connor at the mall about to blow everyone up, he takes Lilah up on her offer - her offer to provide Connor with peace. Angel like any parent wishes to give his son the one thing he can't give himself - peace of mind.
But to do so, he must hurt himself - to give Connor this gift, Angel must sacrifice a portion of his own soul, his own redemption.

It is a selfless act that maybe only a parent can understand. A parent who has had a son who doesn't always do nice things. Angel didn't save Connor so much as give Connor a second chance at life. A second chance at family.
A chance that Connor would never ever have had with Angel.
And in doing so, Angel gave up two things that were the most important to him: his son and his own self-respect.

My mother saw Angel's sacrifice as being truly heroic.
I see it less so. But then I'm not a parent, so perhaps that's partly the reason? Not sure. Did Angel do the right thing by Connor? I don't know. Did he do the right thing by his friends, by himself - probably not. And perhaps that is the very thing that makes what he did for Connor - so special?

An old law professor once told me - "there but for the Grace of God go I" and my Granny often repeats an old native american saying she learned, "before judging someone's actions, walk a mile in their mocassions", Granny
loves these sayings - another one is "you never can tell, little Johnny may have died and then fell in the well..."
oddly enough I think all three sayings apply to this situation.

Before we judge Angel too harshly...perhaps we should all hike a few blocks in those moccassions?

Hope this helps you finish your essay/review, Masq.

Best,

SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Here's my view and anothers - it's pro Angel -- Rufus, 03:39:09 08/08/03 Fri

She saw what he did as a tremendous gift of compassion for his son.

I also see this as a gift of new memories for his son. Connor didn't have life experience of having the family he longed for, and Angel gave him the one thing he always wanted. But, if things happen and Connor had his memory restored I could see a similar thing going on like with Dawn when she found out she wasn't "real". I have to wonder Connors reaction to Angel's act if he also has the parallel memories of being loved in a family? I also think that out of any of the people that Angel knows that it just could be Wesley that would appreciate what Angel did the most. I don't see everyone's memories as being gone as much as I see that many of the conflicts remain just twisted around different situations to get the same emotional end result as when Connor existed.

I can't judge Angel as all right or all wrong when it comes to his gift of family to Connor. It's easy to be a backseat driver when it isn't our own lives. I wonder how any of us would react if we were presented with a similar situation. That said, I do go with what I said below, there will be consequences, but will they fit the "crime"?

[> [> [> [> [> masq--some help w/your "home"-work -- anom, 17:40:24 08/07/03 Thu

"But Connor was a mess, and under the circumstances, I don't know what else Angel could have done to fix him. You can't help someone if he won't LET YOU. Connor *REJECTED* his father's love. So Angel made a desperate sacrifice to save the boy the only way he thought he could. So it's not fair to keep blaming Angel."

I just can't help suspecting that W&H isn't likely to have given Angel a full list of options. He may have thought this was the only thing he could do, but was it really?

Not really sounding like a defense of Angel, I suppose, or at least not of the choice he made. The point is that he may not have been making a fully informed choice. If you don't know there are other possibilities, you have to do the best you can w/the info you have. Then it's a question of what effort you make to find out what other choices there may be. But Angel didn't have a whole lot of time to do that, & lives were at stake.

[> [> [> [> [> [> sorry--above post belongs after s'kat's 1st one -- anom, 23:07:53 08/07/03 Thu

[> [> [> Random wrote a great post in response to TCH's Odyssey for Home you might want to check out, Masq. -- Rob, 14:34:14 08/06/03 Wed

It has a great, positive analysis of Angel's decision.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Already have it on my hard-drive -- Masq, 14:37:12 08/06/03 Wed

It's one of the one's I'm considering. I'm just not sure if it takes the strong "pro" side I'm looking for. It's a little too much in agreement with the "con" side.

[> [> [> [> [> Huh. I see your point, having just gone over the post. -- Rob, 14:55:10 08/06/03 Wed

This is a tough one, because I think in most cases, even in the positive reviews of Angel's decision, as with TCH's Odyssey post, an admission is made that it was a wrong decison, but its wrongness is what is interesting or thought-provoking. I see it as being intentionally ironic and like it as a thematic counterpoint to the free will that Angel had "bestowed" back upon the people of the world. But was it the right decision? I don't think so. It's very tough to argue, especially on this show, that someone can be completely irredeemable.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> And yet some people have made such arguments -- Masq, 17:14:50 08/06/03 Wed

I have seen "Connor was too far gone. He needed to start from scratch with a better environment" arguments. At least, I remember seeing such arguments. I can't find them now. I don't know if I saved them, because I was so angry back then I couldn't finish reading them in the first place.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Back when we were discussing power for the "magazine" -- Vickie, 19:17:40 08/06/03 Wed

We talked a lot about the "power to" and the "power over." And how power over another person was so often a violation of their right to self-determination.

My personal conclusion was that there are very few times it is right to use one's power over another, one of those being to protect one's child (or any child, really). Thing is, Connor is very close to not being a child, right on the border, and has been responsible for himself (to the extent he's been able to) for quite a while.

So we're back in grayville, which is, I think, right where ME wants us. Whether or not we ever see Connor again.

[> [> [> On Connor -- Tyreseus, 14:36:39 08/06/03 Wed

What would really help is to read a really thoughtfully-written argument that Angel did the right thing where Connor is concerned, one that isn't dismissive of the character of Connor

As another one of the Connor fans out there, I really want to help you with non-character dissmissive arguments.. but I still don't believe Angel did the right thing. I think I'm with you on this - he didn't get the Whedon-given right to redemption.

[> [> [> Re: It's half-done -- yabyumpan, 15:07:09 08/06/03 Wed

For me it's not about 'redemption' with Connor. I'm aware that there's the question of his taking part in killing the girl in 'inside out' and yes, I do think he knew right from wrong....BUT....I think you can equate Connor's existance to a caged, wild animal who is continually getting taunted, denied sustanance and poked with sticks, at some point they're going to lash out. Would that animal need 'redemption, would it deserve to be put down? or would it actually need and deserve, love and caring and kindness?
I think that's what Angel did, or believes that he did, or tried to do. No, I don't like what happened to Connor any more than you do but for me it's not about his 'Joss'given right to 'redemption'.

Sorry, I'm sure that doesn't help at all ;O)

[> [> [> [> agree! -- Miyu tVP, 16:32:12 08/06/03 Wed

I was trying to get at something like this - but your analogy is much more vivid.

Has Angel robbed Connor of the right to redemption?

We don't know that this is a permanent state. In the wacky world of Joss anything could happen. Episode one could have his memories flooding back.

In keeping with the abuse victim/caged animal theme perhaps this is just a "break" or even therapy. A chance to distance himself from his rage and regroup.

I think this would be in keeping with the Buffyverse. Like the artifically imposed chip for Spike. It didn't redeem him, but helped him to get into a different pattern of behavior, leading him to seek redemption of his own free will.

I could envision something where Connor carries on for a while in his blissful existance, but then is needed by the group, his memories restored... which is an agonizing process for him, but this time he has the coping skills to start to deal with it.

As far as "not liking" what happened to Connor - I was completely choked up watching that scene. I think it was the most loving thing Angel could possibly have done.

[> [> [> [> You have a point -- Masq, 17:11:55 08/06/03 Wed

Actually, I agree with this, for the most part. I say "redemption" because it's such a big Joss theme, and to tip my hat at folks who think Connor did wrong while knowing right from wrong. I tend to fall more into the camp that says "What Connor really needs is lots of love, hugs, and therapy". That's what Angel should have given him. His time. His love.

But a year or more of Angel and Connor in hospitals and therapist's offices doesn't lend itself to "interesting television drama", at least not to the take-or-leave-Connor crowd.

But so instead ME writes him out of everyone's memories? Surely they could have come up with a third option.

[> [> [> [> [> "Who's Connor?" -- yabyumpan, 17:25:06 08/06/03 Wed

One of the most ill-conceved lines in ME history IMO. No need for it, surely there was enough angst with what happened to Connor anyway and enough greyness with Angel accepting the deal for everyone and the FG now working for/at W&H. I'd love to hear TM/JW explain the reason for it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, that line kept me awake at night after "Home" -- Masq, 12:47:01 08/07/03 Thu

Thinking, "What the f*** are they gonna do to deal with that?"

And worrying that they'll blow it off and not do anything with that even though it totally messes up Wesley's S. 3- S. 4 journey.

Of course, it's not like I was getting any sleep towards the end of the season anyway.

But I was really hoping the last ten minutes of "Home" was a weird dream I had.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, that line kept me awake at night after "Home" -- heywhynot, 15:57:27 08/07/03 Thu

I personally did not have a problem with what Angel did. To me the trauma's Connor went through were more than modern psychology & psychiatry could deal with. Faith was abused and had issues & could be saved. Connor reached a point where he was broken the likes of which we have never seen on Buffy. Of course we like our heroes being able to overcome impossible odds. To me though Angel did not give up on Connor, which would of been letting him die or outright killing him or putting him in a WH prison. Angel was creative and came up with a way to let Connor's potential shine through.

In terms of Wesley's journey, I don't think it negates what has happened the last couple of seaons of AtS. The events did happen, just no one remembers Connor. He was placed into a family, like how Dawn was insereted into Buffy's life. Jasmine happened. The FG did end world peace. Coredlia is in a coma. W&H did offer AI their LA firm for stopping Jasmine (and reasons yet to be told). Just because no one remembers who Connor is, doesn't mean they don't remember a son of Angel. To them the son was not named Connor and he is no longer with them. Almost like the latest Flash. The universe is altered so no one remembers who the Flash (and the previous Flash) is. The events that require people knowing his ID still happened. People remember the events but not that detail. Of course those involved in said events will over time question the logic of what happened without them knowing who the Flash is.

[> [> [> [> [> What would Connor have wanted? -- Arethusa, 20:51:16 08/06/03 Wed

Connor wouldn't have spent a year or three in therapy. He would have been in jail or a secure hospital for a very long time, and probably would be in intensive therapy for years more. Most importantly, he would have been very very unhappy for a very long time. He was homicidal and suicidal. Possibly he had an attachment disorder. Connor had just killed his daughter and helped slit the throat of an innocent girl who was pleading for her life. When Jasmine said she was eating people he smiled and said, "Cool." He slept with the girl his father loved, than rubbed it in his face. He beat a man, probably to death. A year before he came close to killing Cordelia and sank his father to the bottom of the ocean to live in eternal torment, starving and mad.

Connor was suffering, and would have continued to suffer for decades. And Angel knew this. It was too late to save the people he, Angel, killed. It was too late to save Drusilla, who still wanders the erth, tortured and insane, both filled with suffering and inflicting suffering on others. Angel was never able to stake Dru, even for her own sake. He had taken her sanity, and couldn't bring himself to take her life too. Perhaps he felt he deserved to be haunted with guilt by her presence, and it would be taking the easy way out to remove the evidence of his crimes.

But now, letting Connor continue living his life as it was was taking the easy way out. Angel would get to keep his son and the hope of being part of a family. But Connor, like Drusilla, would pay the price for Angel's actions. He would continue to suffer for decades more, of this I am certain. Angel had seconds to make a deal with W&H. So he gave Connor something he would never have himself, something that Connor would never have either-peace of mind.

Angel knew what it was to like to kill and spent nearly one hundred years suffering from guilt and regret for his actions. He wasn't going to let Connor spend his life like that. He couldn't. So he made a deal with the devil and he-and we-lost the boy we loved. But he made that choice for Connor, to give the boy love and peace and happiness. Not fake Jasmine happiness-the real kind. Angel did what he used to depend on TPTB to do-save a life and prevent killing. What he did was no better or worse than giving up Connor for adoption as a baby (retroactively), to give him a chance at a good life.

Yes, what Angel did could be said to be giving up on his son. And it may seem that ME is saying that damaged children are unredeemable. But I think those are unduly pessamistic views of Angel's act of love. Connor's case was unique, as unique as his parentage. And I know that if someone came up to me when I was eighteen and offered me a new life, with a good and loving mom and dad and a successful life, I would have gladly given up my current life.

[> [> [> Here's a theory, then.. -- Random, 16:43:55 08/06/03 Wed

The Angelverse is not a deterministic one, not really. For all the talk of prophecy and apocalypse, ultimately the players are the builders, if not the architects, of their own futures. Consider the Angelus of "The Becoming": Angelus: Everything that I am, everything that I have done, has led me here. But this is a destiny in retrospect, a glance backwards at a path that has become inevitable because it already is. It cannot be recalled. So Angel stands over a son whose entire life has been a tragedy, a glass darkly with only a couple point where the light can shine through clearly -- the love of Cordelia and of Angel himself.

The Gnostics argue that the world is a creation of an imperfect god, a demiurge. Connor's world has been shaped by failed gods, up to and including the most literally of imperfect gods, Jasmine herself. And even the few shreds of happiness in this marred existence have been ripped away. Everything that Connor was has led him to this point, and Angel the Father has failed. It is no longer the parent that Connor needs, but a new demiurge, a second chance. The Father has failed, but perhaps the strength of the Champion offers a hope where the love of the Father was insufficient. So Angel does not act as a father, or even as a humanistic hero of the people. He makes the hardest of choices, the decision to give Connor salvation from himself. This is not the democratic way, or the humanistic one, or the Christian one. This is the Last Judgment, where the quick and the damned are separated. Angel divided the quick from the damned within the person of Connor himself. It was a decision that appeared wrong on many, many levels -- but that is why it took a Champion to make it, to take the pain upon himself. Angel realized that the time had passed for talking, for mere redemption. So he acts...not for the sake of nebulous values of love and freewill, but for the sake of Connor's very soul.

[> [> [> [> Re: Here's a theory, then.. -- yabyumpan, 17:18:08 08/06/03 Wed

So he acts...not for the sake of nebulous values of love and freewill, but for the sake of Connor's very soul.

I think that's one of the problems I have with it. Maybe I relate AtS too much to RL and should jsut remember that it's a 'fantasy' show, but for I compare it RL children who have been abused all their lives or children in Liberia forced to be soldiers or any other of the heart-breaking situations that children can go through before they reach adulthood. For me what ME is saying about those children is that there is no hope, because in RL they wouldn't be able to start again in the same way Connor did. If we accept that there was no other course of action for Angel, that Connor was too broken to be able to be healed in any other way, then it feels like damming all the RL children who's lives have also been hell and I just can't accept that.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree, mostly, actually -- Random, 17:34:49 08/06/03 Wed

But consider it in this light: Angel didn't give up on Connor. Like a good Father, he took all of his child's pain on himself. Was he right? Did he choose the proper path? These can be debated endlessly. But he demonstrated one of the highest fidelity a Father can show, and thus demonstrated his Champion-like qualities: he laid down his own happiness for that of his son. He once again must suffer alone. In a sense, it is atonement for the suffering of his son, the loneliness and lack-of-belonging that overwhelmed Connor's life. Yes, he might have chosen a different path, one that was just as hard for him, and for Connor. But he didn't. He offered his own peace as a sacrifice to gain Connor's. And if it was a fundamentally flawed decision, and a coward's way out in many ways, it was nevertheless a terribly brave one too. ME isn't talking about the hopelessness of the other children...it is talking about the hopelessness of the Father who desires the best for his child in the midst of overwhelming tragedy

[> [> [> [> [> [> Also don't forget what he said in "Peace Out" -- Diana, 07:47:58 08/07/03 Thu

In "Peace Out" he wouldn't let Jasmine hold him accountable for ending world peace. "It's not my fault" he screamed at her. In "Home" when he sees on the TV just how damaged Connor is, he accuses Lilah and she shift blame by saying "Looking at him." Angel takes the responsibility for what his son has become on himself, which isn't wholely his fault.

I won't debate whether that is right or not. It is beautiful. To take on the sins of another, to hang on a cross for the sins of Man, that is what Angel did. Angel did the best thing he thought he could. Whether that was the best thing, I really don't care. He totally reversed direction from "Peace Out," which as the Insect priest pointed out, he did for his son.

I was glad to see him smile in "Chosen."

[> [> [> [> Angel made a Dad's decision...... -- Rufus, 17:27:24 08/06/03 Wed

No matter who created him, why he was created, Connor is Angel and Darla's son. Circumstances led to a young man who was no longer capable of making a rational choice because of his life experience, and his experience of life had been just one big flaming hell. Angel couldn't change it, Darla only had moments to try to change it, and what Cordy had become had done the most damage. The result was someone who no longer wanted to play in the big sandbox of life with the rest of us. What does Angel do, the right thing? The Wrong thing? I don't think either, he made the decision of a Dad who wanted his tortured son to have the life that was stolen from him as a baby by that whack job Holtz. Angel took the free will he resored to all others from his son because he loved him and felt at that moment he had a chance to make things better. The question I ask is what is the difference between what we would do for others and what we will do for our loved ones? I'm not going to say that Angel did the wrong thing cause maybe if the circumstances were the same maybe I'd make the same choice that he did. Thing is that everything we do has consequences, I have to wonder what they will be for Angel this season. I also felt for the fact that Angel gave up his son to be able to see that last scene where Connor the son who no longer was his toast to the happy life he thinks has always been his. That moment I was with Angel, even though the consequences are unknown, to see a child who was in pain no longer suffering can make a parent do anything, just like Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> I have to agree -- Vickie, 19:26:20 08/06/03 Wed

What does every parent want when something bad happens to their child? They want it to not happen.

Not to comfort them, not to "heal" them. They want bad things to not happen to their kids.

Just like a Real Life Dad, Angel was not able to protect Connor from the bad things in the world. But, because of Wolfram and Hart, he was able to retroactively make those bad things not happen to his son.

I really cannot expect it to work, given ME thematic canon in this area. But I do completely understand Angel's choice.

[> [> [> [> [> Did Angel take Connnor's free will or restore it? -- Diana, 07:52:14 08/07/03 Thu

What Connor had become was totally grasping, little better than an animal. What free will did he really have? Could he have done anything differently? Could he have been "redeemed?"

What Connor became was off to college and a world of possibilities. Angel restored Connor's free will. Connor now had choices and he was capable of making them. He could respond to love. He could love.

Why is this such a bad thing?

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm pointing out something that goes beyond the right or wrong of the situation. -- Rufus, 15:30:45 08/07/03 Thu

You used the quote yourself...

But sometimes the price we end up paying for one bad choice isnít commensurate with the offence. The Prodigal

As much as people have opinions on the right or wrong nature of what Angel did, I'm pointing out that the consequences may or may not reflect either the right or wrong position each of us has taken.

[> [> [> Connor compared himself to Angel -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:56:34 08/06/03 Wed

(Note: personally, I've found this issue to be so ambigous that I really can't stick with any position for too long, so this post both does and does not reflect my views on Angel's decision in "Home").

Connor compared himself to Angel; I think that's what finally nudged Angel into the decisions he made. Angel knows what it's like to suffer. He's one of the few people who has gone through more pain and heartache than Connor has, and so is the only one in a position to understand.

Angel has tried to make amends for his past; he's tried in many different ways to put his history behind him, to make up for what he did. But, after so many years of trying, he's starting to believe that he can't. He tried being Buffy's guide, helping her be a hero, but eventually it became too risky to continue. He tried