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My Scoobies... -- ZachsMind, 14:41:13 08/11/03 Mon

This is a variation on the "My Meme" that HonorH started in an earlier thread which has since scrolled off I think. I liked the idea and thought it might be fun to expand upon it a bit. Feel free to participate by putting your own twist to events immediately after the last scene in "Chosen."

This is a work in progress. It is apocryphal and will no doubt be circumvented come October. To hell with it. The following is not etched in stone for me or anyone. Just playing with the variables.


My Scooby gang...

- did not dawdle long at the edge of Sunnydale Crater.
- had to get Rona & Wood to the hospital.
- made it to the hospital, but just barely, as Wood had lost a lot of blood and Rona was in even worse shape.
- learned that Rona apparently didn't 'choose', and is therefore not a true Slayer, but no one knows why.
- learned that Vi, Kennedy, and six other girls _had_ chosen, did get out in time, made it to the bus, and were now Slayers. All the rest died in action.
- were told by the emergency room doctor that Wood was in stable condition but Rona was not, and that he wanted to keep them both overnight for observation.
- - My Faith demanded to stay by his side all night, though it was against regulations, and was most convincing.
My Scoobies.
- spent their first night away from Sunnydale in a motel near the hospital, in the next closest town from the crater.
- got into an argument that night over where to go from there:
- - My Giles wanted to go back to England and rebuild the Watcher's Council traditionally.
- - My Willow wanted to rebuild the Watcher's Council in the states, perhaps in Cleveland where Giles had said there was another Hellmouth.
- - My Vi sided with Giles.
- - My Kennedy sided with Willow.
- - My Dawn was uncharacteristically silent.
- - My Other Slayers were undecided and vociferous about it.
- - My Andrew was being unsuccessful at ordering a pizza through room service.
- - My Xander wanted everybody to shut up cuz he was tired and just wanted to sleep.
- - My Buffy announced she wasn't going anywhere. She was going to go to L.A. and be with Angel.
My Scoobies:
- continued to argue, and my Andrew never got his pizza.


To be continued maybe.. How are things with Your Scoobies?


[> Re: My Scoobies... --
Claudia, 15:12:34 08/11/03 Mon

[- learned that Rona apparently didn't 'choose', and is therefore not a true Slayer, but no one knows why.]

Why? This doesn't make sense. If Rona didn't "choose", she would have never fought with the Scoobies and the SITs in the finale, in the first place.


[> [> Clarificatiion about "MY" Rona... -- ZachsMind, 17:29:49 08/11/03 Mon

Guess it was kinda hard to explain it properly within the confines of the "my meme" format. However, speaking as a struggling/aspiring/frustrated writer, I feel it's important in the aftermath of Chosen to have at least one Slayer choose no. I'd need one girl who consciously told herself she wanted it, but who deep down really didn't. And I'd need that character to have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out why. Of all the Potential Slayer characters introduced last season, Rona's the one with the most potential from a writing standpoint, but only if she didn't choose. I believe this is consistent with the Rona character we've been presented.

Let me attempt to explain:

1) I'm toying with the idea of attempting fanfic again. That's part of where this idea is coming from. I believe that among other things, if one is to attempt fanfic that takes place after "Chosen" then the new Slayers need to get their own personalities. They have to become more than the stereotypes that Whedon's team laid down in season seven. Either that, or they need to get quickly written out. I have absolutely no clue what to do with nameless surviving New Slayers, but I have a bit of a grasp of Vi & Rona. This Rona idea is (I'm hoping) gonna help me define Rona more, without breaking from what we know about her canonically.

2) What do we know about Rona? We know she never had a Watcher of her own, and only learned about her potential when the Harbingers started chasing her. We know when Buffy told the Potentials to get away from Eve (cuz she was TFE), Rona was the only one to hesitate, and verbalize her lack of understanding. We know she was scared, like all the Potentials, but Rona was also of a different attitude than the rest. She had a mouth on her and that mouth was usually offering pessimistic sentiments. She had issues with the word "try." She was perhaps the most indecisive of the gang. She rarely, if ever, showed any trust in Buffy's direction. Moreso than the rest. She was very passive agressive, which often indicates a self-defeatist attitude and a tendency to resort to transference, blaming everyone around her for problems rather than taking responsibility for herself. She could do chin-ups, indicating good upper body strength. She acknowledged that Buffy & Spike were 'hot' together. She liked the feel of a wooden stake in her hand. She knew what TTFN meant, and how Chloe loved Winnie the Pooh. She felt dissed when she learned Spike's trigger had been active the whole time and Buffy hadn't cautioned the girls. We know that Rona was more afraid of Caleb than the Bringers.

Really. That's about all we know. Everything else is a matter of filling in the gaps, and becomes apocryphal. We know that when they were training, and Spike asked her why she failed to best him in a test fight, she admitted he was stronger and that it wasn't a fair fight. This is true. However, her choice of words and her demeanour betrayed that ultimately, Rona instinctively refused to accept responsibility for her life, her actions, her fate. Rather than choose, Rona chose to let people around her choose, and then she'd complain about the outcome. Not exactly what I would call Slayer material. Especially if in order to BECOME a Slayer, one HAS to have the compulsion TO choose.

3) In the episode Potential, Buffy said, "The odds are against us. Time is against us. And some of us will die in this battle. Decide now that it's not going to be you." In that battle, Rona did decide perhaps. Or maybe she just got lucky. She survived that time without any worries. Later, when the gang faced Caleb, she wasn't so lucky. Rona didn't go into the battle with the right attitude. She got her arm broken. I'm suggesting that Rona didn't decide that time. She did not go into the fight mentally prepared. I'm suggesting that as the season progressed, what little faith and trust Rona had in herself diminished as time wore on.

4). In the episode Dirty Girls, Rona questioned Buffy's motives, and in response to her Xander went off on a little speech that made most of Buffy's speeches look lamer than they usually were. Xander said, "...doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, then you take the little bus to battle." I'm thinkin' Rona took the little bus.

5) When the gang asked Buffy to leave and gave the reins to Faith, Rona said, "ding dong the witch is dead," and Dawnie shot her a look that coulda killed and told her to shut up. Again, Rona's instinct was to spout negativity at every turn. Her passive agressive behavior was just overall bad karma, and again it indicates a deeper self-loathing about her.

6) Buffy said this in the season finale: "So hereÝs the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that powerÍ now? In every generation one Slayer is born because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule. They were powerful men. (She points at Willow, who smiles nervously.) This woman is more powerful than all of them combined. So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power. Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny. From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up. SlayersÍ every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"

Are you ready to be strong? Rona never asked for this to happen to her. None of the SITs did. Rona didn't want it. When Willow did her "nifty" spell, Rona wasn't psychologically ready to accept the power, so the Slayer Power passed her over. She already had a broken arm going into that final battle. She took more damage while she was there. Kennedy and Vi got out of there without a scratch, but Amanda did not. I'm suggesting that the Potentials who didn't make it out of there alive, chose wrong. Rona chose wrong. Rona wasn't ready to be strong.


[> [> [> Re: Clarificatiion about "MY" Rona... -- Claudia, 09:42:29 08/12/03 Tue

Your choice of Rona would have been consistent . . . before "Chosen". But considering that she chose to fight with the others in the Hellmouth - and with a broken arm - I don't agree with your choice. Sorry.


[> [> [> [> Re: Clarificatiion about "MY" Rona... -- ZachsMind, 15:05:33 08/12/03 Tue

She got her butt kicked in "Chosen" and was dying in the bus when we last see her. Vi, who had just been through the same experience Rona had, was rooting for her to survive. Buffy took a shot in the gut and came back swinging. Kennedy barely broke a sweat.

I'm saying that the ones who chose the power came out of the final battle smelling like roses. The ones who didn't, didn't. Rona's the only one who survived, barely, without becoming a Slayer.

BUT That's my take on it of course. Your mileage may vary.


[> [> [> [> [> just a little comment -- monsieurxander, 22:53:01 08/12/03 Tue

Rona yielded the scythe during the final battle... Wasn't it implied that only Slayers could use it? Or rather, use it well? She sure seemed to be good with it.


[> [> [> [> [> [> I saw that... -- ZachsMind, 07:01:42 08/13/03 Wed

I believe there was a moment there in the hellmouth when Rona held the Power of The Slayers in her gut, but that it couldn't hang because of something intrinsic to Rona's personality. I'm considering exploring this in fanfic, but time isn't on my side right now. It's also a very delicate thing. I want to do it without drifting too far away from canon. Not an easy feat.

I'm also beginning to question my own original assumption that the Scoobies would rush Rona to a hospital. They all just lost everything they own. Who's going to pay for an emergency room visit? Would Kennedy make a phone call to her parents? We know so little about her family situation back home. I have an idea that might work in that regard that shouldn't adversely affect canon, but it's kinda deus ex machina. It's a one shot idea, and once used I couldn't do it again.

Also, Willow's an uberwitch now. We've seen her take a bullet outta Buffy's chest. However, she also hasn't healed Xander's eyeball, when one would think that she could. Does she have the power to heal Wood and Rona? If so, why didn't she heal Xander?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I saw that... -- Claudia, 09:22:45 08/13/03 Wed

"I believe there was a moment there in the hellmouth when Rona held the Power of The Slayers in her gut, but that it couldn't hang because of something intrinsic to Rona's personality."

What do you mean by this comment? It doesn't make sense. What's wrong with Rona's "personality"?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I thought I already answered this question.. -- ZachsMind, 12:22:44 08/14/03 Thu

What's wrong with Rona's "personality"? I already answered this question a few posts ago, when I broke down beat for beat all the appearances of Rona in season seven.

I'm going on the assumption that there is a reason why Whedon's writers chose Rona to say "ding dong the witch is dead." There's a reason why they chose Rona as the one on the brink of death when the finale ended. Even if there's not really from their perspective (or maybe the actress' agent was pushing for her to get more screen time than most of the others), from the perspective of a viewer, and a fanficionado, there should be.

If you look back over season seven, Rona's got a lot of issues about trust and blind faith and whether or not she was ready or whether or not Buffy's a good leader, ad infinitum. Something a friend reminds me now and then, "argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours." That's Rona in a nutshell. Her moments on screen are very brief but if you look at them in the context of the overall season, you should see what I mean.

Whether it's where Whedon was going with the character or not, I think IF that's where they were going, it makes Rona more interesting than just another token SIT. I am hoping to someday explore Rona's unrealized potential more in fanfic, so if I ever find the time to get that off the ground hopefully you'll be able to read about it then. I will admit it is interpretive and apocryphal, though. I may never get around to it.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> re: uberwitch -- monsieurxander, 23:14:29 08/13/03 Wed

I believe to the oft-asked question of "If she can bring back the dead and lift a bullet out of Buffy's chest, why can't she heal Xander's eye?", the answer is mainly because she chooses not to. Why? Her bringing back Buffy was quite controversial, and at times seemed like the wrong thing to do. Lots of risk was involved. Buffy came back "wrong", although only on a molecular level... but that was blind luck. Healing Buffy's bullet wound was done under the influence of evil magicks. Therefore, I think that now she's adhering to the Season 5 philosophy of "the medical and magical don't mix"... because a lot of things could go wrong. Sure, in theory she could do it... but she wouldn't want to risk further damage.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I see it as a matter of balance.... -- Briar Rose, 14:32:12 08/14/03 Thu

One thing that I have to assume the Coven taught Willow while she adjourned to England was that magick, and what you do with it, requires balance.

While Willow saw Buffy's death in season 5 as being of a magickal nature and therefore worthy of magickal do-overs (magick balancing magick) she WAS within the Natural Laws of balance.

When Willow went out of balance and went all Black Eyed Girl was when it was Buffy being shot by Warren (especially in conjunction with Tara's death) as being something she was magickally allowed to alter. Niether of those were magickally influenced injuries. Out of balance and playing "God" where she had no jurisdiction to do so.

So it stands to reason that Willow understood that since Caleb's attack on Xander was NOT of a magickal nature.(He did just use his thumb, not a spell after all) that she was working from a place of BALANCE once again. That she couldn't justify magickal intervention for a perfectly human caused injury.

There is also the fact that all of Witch craft does hold to a concept of "everything happens for a reason" and it wouldn't be ethical for her to keep Xander from receiving the possible lessons his blindness was given to teach him.

I saw it as a side effect of the time Willow spent with the Coven learning about what is and isn't proper to intervene magickally with. Her Spiritual Growth and the ability to control her emotional reactions while still using her magickal gifts.

OTOH. I think she would have been perfectly justified in healing Xander. As I believed she was perfectly justified in removing the bullit from Buffy and flaying Warren and finally calling the GeekTroika in general to justice. But then my Spiritual Beliefs are different from what Joss always appeared to be getting at.*L


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Clarificatiion about "MY" Rona... -- Claudia, 09:19:02 08/13/03 Wed

"She got her butt kicked in "Chosen" and was dying in the bus when we last see her. Vi, who had just been through the same experience Rona had, was rooting for her to survive. Buffy took a shot in the gut and came back swinging. Kennedy barely broke a sweat."


What does this have to do with your belief that she wouldn't chose to remain a Slayer? Besides, Rona had a broken arm while fighting in the Hellmouth. Naturally, she would be at a disadvantage, in compare to the other Slayers. And what does Vi have to do with this?


[> Re: My Willow -- Pathfinder, 17:05:57 08/11/03 Mon

Just went back and found the original thread. Hope no one minds if I contribute a Willow entry.

-Always knew she'd stay in Sunnydale, but wanted to see how many Ivy League schools would roll out the red carpet anyway.
-Wonders who she'd be if Buffy had never come to Sunnydale.
-Every now and then, wishes she'd had the chance to find out.
-Never told anyone that all her "Doogie Houser" fanfics starred a certain wise cracking, dark haired mental patient with a wicked, albeit unrequieted, crush on a certain auburn haired Chief Resident.

-Held onto a few keepsakes from Vamp Willow
-Was surprised at just how easily Oz took to playing "Mistress of Pain."
-Gay or straight, will always be waiting for Oz
-Plans to buy a plane ticket to Istanbul one day, when she's a little blue haired old lady.

-Sometimes used to wish she'd just left Buffy in the ground.
-Immediately felt terrible for wishing that and checked in on Buffy to make sure she was okay. ýMe and wishes...not so much mixy things...ţ
-Then wondered why Hallmark doesn't make a "Sorry I Made You Not Be Dead Anymore" card.
-All that said, loves Buffy like a sister.
-Loves Xander like a brother...that she used to have the hots for.
-By the end, liked Anya a lot more than she ever would've admitted.
-Misses her more every day.
-Worries more about Xander now that Anya's gone.

-Never told anyone that she had to agree to tutor DÝHoffrynÝs evil spawn (flunking Chemistry evil spawn at that) to get Anya out of that nasty little frat boy fix.
-Still has D'Hoffryn's business card.
-Isn't sure why...
-Yes, really.

-Feels worse about stabbing that poor doe in the forest than she does about flaying Warren Mears.
-Feels worse about threatening Dawn than about trying to end the world.
-Once the dust has settled, plans to take Buffy out for mochas and a nice long chat about their friendship issues, preferably a chat not involving the extreme kickage of each othersÝ a**es.

-Frequently used to check her hair and eyes in the mirror as soon as she woke up...just to be sure.
-If she could change just one thing in her life, it would be that argument with Tara before the fair. Still thinks that was the beginning of the end. ýAfter all...no argument, then no sneaky little hell god brain suckage, no black magic pay backage, no eventual rise of Darth Rosenberg-...Sorry, was I babbling?ţ

-Knows that she'll love Tara until the day she dies, and then some.
-Plans to buy a new memorial stone to put near her new home in Cleveland, so she'll have a place to visit.
-Thinks hellmouths should really be located in nicer cities.

-Still isn't sure why Kennedy likes her
-Actually does love Kennedy
-Isn't ready to let Kennedy in on that little fact just yet
-Is seriously considering getting her own tongue pierced.
-DoesnÝt plan to let anyone (except Kennedy, obviously) in on that little fact, ever.

-(Nod to Xander)Realizes that she works the cuteness sometimes.
-Never worked the baby talk, just couldn't stop herself.
-Thinks it has something to do with her mother's steadfast refusal to use babytalk, ever, even when Willow was in the womb. "Lack of nurturing issues much?"

-Refused to leave Xander's side the entire time he was hospitalized after losing his eye.
-While he slept, covered her left eye to try and imagine what his world would look like.

-Really thought she was going to go all black eyed baddie and have to be put down like a mad dog during the big essence of the scythe spell...
-However, did pack her transcripts from Sunnydale U, just in case...
-Is pretty darn happy about that little bit of foresight now.

-Isn't really afraid of anything anymore.
-Except maybe herself.


[> [> 'Frequently used to check her hair and eyes in the mirror as soon as she woke up...just to be sure.' -- :):):):) MsGiles, 06:00:51 08/14/03 Thu



[> [> Re: My Willow -- ZachsMind, 17:40:48 08/11/03 Mon

My Willow is trying to figure out a way to convince Xander to let her try a magic spell that's supposed to give him sight in his left eye. If she does it, it will work, but not the way she thinks it will.


[> [> [> Re: My Willow -- Pathfinder, 18:03:08 08/11/03 Mon

Ah, so does Xander finally get his long-awaited Scoobie Super Power in this scenario? Sounds like a fanfic in the offing - Second Sight Xander and Rona the Unrealized Potential.

Has possibilities, yes?


[> [> [> [> I'm workin' on it. =) -- ZachsMind, 18:32:46 08/11/03 Mon

I may never actually get around to writing this. I'm just contemplating the possibilities. Maybe somebody who's a better writer than me would pull it off. I like the ideas but the devil's in the details.

Xander used to be THE member of the group who never got any super powers or anything. If Buffy was Groucho, Willow was Chico, and Oz was Harpo, Xander was Zeppo. The fifth wheel. The odd man out. The sore thumb. The thirteenth donut.

I think with the moment he and Dawn shared where he explained to her what it's like to have friends all around you that are special without actually being special? And then Dawn basically told him that's what makes him special? He sorta passed the baton there to Dawn in that moment. However, as a writer I have plans for her too.

I'm thinking that there's other characters now who can take that position, cuz in every story like this where you have people running around being 'special' there has to be at least one person who never gets special. Those people now are Rona, Dawn and Andrew. And Wood. And Giles. And there's no doubt gonna be others. So Xander doesn't have to have that role anymore.

As for how his "second sight" would function, I haven't personally decided yet. I keep thinkin' some kinda 'true sight' which he can't turn off, even with the eyepatch. It should be useful but not functional. It should also change periodically and be unpredictable. Sometimes he could see through things and sometimes he sees things as they should be or as they really are or as they were before or will be perhaps.

Xander could learn to control it over time, but initially it should be the worst possible thing that could happen. It shouldn't be perceived as a gift. It's not like he's gonna get to stand toe to toe with the Slayer. He becomes useful but not in the way he'd like or the way Willow intended. And it'd cause a rift between them, I think. Especially if she did it without his permission.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm workin' on it. =) -- deacon, 18:47:32 08/11/03 Mon

For a long time I never really liked Xander very much, I did'nt think his jokes for very funny, and honestly I found him annoying sometimes, I think that it what he was supposed to be, a tag along, I don't mean to be to harsh, this is just my personal opinion.
The scene you mentioned between Xander and Dawn made me appreciate him alot more


[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm workin' on it. =) -- Pathfinder, 19:00:24 08/11/03 Mon

Nice idea. I've personally always been very Willow-centric and I know I tend to look for the best in that character, but I honestly doubt that she'd try such a spell without Xander's express permission. I really do think she's learned that lesson.

It would seem likely that everyone would've gained a huge amount of confidence in her mojo control after the stunning success of the scythe power sharing spell. So, with the Scoobies apparently preparing to form the core of a new Watchers Council and taking on this tremendous new mission of finding freshly minted slayers all over the globe, it would make sense that Xander would want to be at 100 percent, including 100 percent vision. More a practical matter than simply a selfish wish.

And ultimately I suppose it could be more powerful if Xander's gift/curse, whatever form it takes, is something he asked for and actively sought. When you ask for a gift in the JossVerse, it pays to be really specific, since wish granting usually seems to fall in the "missed the target, but hit the tree" category.


[> [> [> [> [> [> The white witch -- Deacon, 19:07:38 08/11/03 Mon

What was the significance of willow having the white glow after she did the spell. Kenedy called her a goddess, is she some sort of higher being, Is she over the problems she had with dark majic, or is it because she harnessed the power from a place of true good.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's not that she's 'healed' of darkness exactly... -- ZachsMind, 07:20:23 08/13/03 Wed

It's gonna be an ongoing battle. Notice that in "Selfless" when Willow protected both herself and that girl in the closet from the spidery demony thingy, her eyes went black and she got a little dark there. I think the dark/light thing manifesting about Willow is more a reflection of her attitude at the moment, appearing as glamour, than it is an indication of where she's drawing her power from.

It's all connected. Essentially she gets her power from the same source, which is ..y'know.. everything. It's all connected. However, how she uses it, what she perceives herself to be as a filter of that magic energy, that has a lot to do with whether she's dark Willow or light Willow.

The scythe spell was perhaps the most selfless thing Willow's ever done. It wasn't her idea. She was doing a favor for Buffy. She was getting no direct benefit from it. She wasn't using her powers for selfish personal gain. She was using herself as a conduit to draw power from the scythe and rewriting how the Slayer forces functioned. She turned a spigot into a bursting dam, in order to benefit not just one or a handful of people, but any young woman on the planet who happened to intrinsically qualify for slayer status. One became many.

Admittedly, Willow got a side benefit indirectly, in that her lover became a slayer, but that wasn't her single motive for doing it. She had a higher purpose of defending the world against evil. So her mind and soul were in sync to generate more positive energies from the mystic power of the universe. To reflect that, Willow got all white and goddessy for a minute.

It all boils down to karma. Do more selfless good with magic, and more positive energies flow about you and more nice things come your way. Be a little selfish and careless with your power, and people around you tend to break limbs, lose eyeballs and die. Remember, Tara had no problem with magic. She questioned what Willow did with her magic, and how it was changing her. Tara smelled Dark Willow coming several months before she actually manifested, but it was still a gradual process. So is white Willow.

Over time, Willow's gonna eventually fall somewhere in between. She'll be able to use her powers for some selfish purposes after amassing positive karmic points helping others. It's a matter of balance.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Some Good Points... -- Pathfinder, 18:11:54 08/13/03 Wed

I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing here. I agree that the emergence of White Witch Willow probably didn't mean she was permanently cured of her darkness. It is part of her, just as her lightness is.
But I did genuinely see her darkness as a manifestation of her fears and insecurities, whether it was her fear of being "just plain old Willow" through much of season six, or her intense fear of accepting the pain of Tara's loss and of going through her grief at the end of season six.

In those terms, I was sort of struck by the parallels between the end of season six and the end of season seven. At the end of season six, Willow nearly destroyed the world when she became suddenly connected to everything and could only sense the collective pain of all of humanity. At the end of season seven, she was again connected in a similar global sense in doing the essence of the scythe spell, with the opposite effect.

As you say, she was committing a selfless act. But she was also facing up to her greatest fear - that at her core there was only darkness - in order to do it.

But I'm not sure the selflessness of the act alone dictates the effect it's going to have. She was also doing a big favor for Buffy at considerable risk to herself in season two when she restored Angel's soul. In terms of Willow's intent, it certainly seemed like a pretty selfless act to me, but she was suddenly a conduit for a powerful curse. Along with Buffy ending up having to send her suddenly re-ensouled lover straight to hell, I believe there's been plenty of speculation that that spell marked the real beginning of Willow's descent.

So I'm not sure that selfless acts always equal fluffy white lights and nothing but good karma coming your way in the JossVerse.

/...Be a little selfish and careless with your power, and people around you tend to break limbs, lose eyeballs and die..../

Did Willow's magic have something to do with Xander losing his eye? Poor girl gets blamed for more than enough stuff already, let's not go sticking completely unrelated events on her karmic tab;)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The white witch -- Pathfinder, 19:26:31 08/11/03 Mon

I suspect that, had the series continued, Willow would've eventually become a Guardian.

As for the Johnny Winter makeover, my read on that was that it was what was at Willow's core all along, beyond her much-discussed darkness.

In explaining why Kennedy might have to 'keep her stabbed', she even remarked that the mojo she'd have to access to do the scythe spell was what lay beyond the very darkest place she'd ever been. So my take on it was that the darkness was her fear, and the white witchiness was perhaps more a representation of her core being, or her true power. But she could only access if she could stop hiding from her fear and move past it.

Just my two cents.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I like your theory Pathfinder, it makes a lot of sense. NT -- Deacon, 19:35:32 08/11/03 Mon

.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Deacon -- KdS, 02:51:04 08/12/03 Tue

You don't have to put anything in the "type your message here" box. Just fill in the subject and name boxes and the software adds an (NT) automatically when you post.


[> [> [> [> [> marx brothers -- Haddock, 11:35:16 08/12/03 Tue

And, as someone else has pointed out elsewhere before now, the originator of the insult "You're the Zeppo" - Cordelia, she is Herbert, the fifth and even less significant Marx Brother.


[> [> [> [> [> [> herbert? was that... -- swordfish--pronounced "sawdfish" (really anom), 23:14:45 08/12/03 Tue

...Gummo's real name? (I used to know that stuff....)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I believe it was Zeppo's real name -- Random (pronounced "had-dock"), 15:37:24 08/13/03 Wed



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> you're right--gummo's was milton -- swordfish (yeah, i got-a a haddock too), 12:20:27 08/14/03 Thu



[> Re: My Scoobies... -- Deacon, 18:02:27 08/11/03 Mon

interesting post, the part where the scobies are taking the time to reflect on the edge of the crater seemed seemed strange to me, they still have people dying of internal bleeding, but as I thought about it some more I think that moment reqiured a pause after all that had happened, deep down most of them probably did not think that they were going to make. Xander would appropiatly morn for anya. That scene where Anya was killed got to me the most, a thousand year old ex demon killed in a fraction of a second.

I don't know if anyone elso noticed this but cleavland was the place that "other deminsion Buffy" was from in "the wish.


[> [> Re: My Scoobies... -- ZachsMind, 18:44:52 08/11/03 Mon

It's probable that the Cleveland thing was a throwaway injoke done by the writers for diehard fans like us who would remember where "WishVerse Buffy" came from. Still it's been thrown into the ring. As a writer I can't see how it could get ignored.

Simultaneously it'd have to be explained why no one has done anything with the Cleveland hellmouth. If Giles knew about it all this time, why hasn't he mentioned it before now? There's a number of variables to play with there. This Giles in this reality may have just recently learned about it. Or perhaps the Cleveland hellmouth is somehow less of a threat than the California hellmouth. Or perhaps it's more of a threat and something that one Slayer couldn't handle but maybe a few dozen can. Or perhaps the Watchers Council has one or more other individuals keeping the baddies at bay there and have been for several years.

I mean, I've always wondered why the Watcher's Council had so much devoted to just one slayer. And if so, why wasn't it called the Vampire Slayer's Council? My belief is that the Council was doing more than watching Slayers. That it also kept an eye on other prophecies, that the Slayer thing was more predominant than other things which work differently. Perhaps there's a family bloodline of demon hunters who have special abilities, and the Council watches them too, but since the powers are passed down by blood it's a lot easier for them to track who's next in line. Anyway. Speculation. Very little canonical material in regards to Cleveland.

I agree with you that the final shot we had seemed forced. Whedon wanted to end it there, but it took a little finnagling to get there and he was out of screen time. Xander should have had a moment to properly mourn. I don't think he did. The way I'd play that would be that he's in a state of shock, and it'd hit him later. When something reminded him of her unpreparedly. How, I don't quite know but it'd happen and when it did he'd fall apart, get it out of his system, then move on cuz he knows the last thing Anya would want him to do in her name was cry. She'd prefer he have sex with someone and think about her. Or get drunk in her name. Or make a lot of money and then have the crater bronzed and turned into a theme park with a big statue of her at the entrance. She'd want an "ANYAWORLD" that made millions and millions of dollars.

But then she was always kinda odd, that way.


[> [> [> Re: My Scoobies... -- Deacon, 19:02:03 08/11/03 Mon

I agrre with you point about why the concil spent so much time wiht one slayer, and what did the do when Buffy wasn't working for the concil. I don't recall any reference to the watcher being and orginization untill season 3.
One nitpick that I had since I started watching, is why everything was happening in the small town of sunnydale, I understand the Hellmouth being the center of mystical convegance, but there must have been other things happening in the rest of the world, but I just left that in the back of my mind and appreciated the show for what it was.


[> Re: My Scoobies... -- Pathfinder, 16:56:53 08/12/03 Tue

Just a few more on the assorted Scoobies. It is rather addictive, isn't it?

My Anya:

--Never regretted telling Buffy off in "Empty Places". Meant exactly what she said and said exactly what she meant. Never apologized.

--Really thought Xander was the great love of her 1,000 year-plus life.

--Didn't think she was his.

--Knew she would never really get over him.

--Damn well planned to try.

--Respected Willow more than the other Scoobies, aside from Xander. Completely got her inner pain and rage.

--Is pretty ticked off that a blind Bringer got the drop on her. That's just embarrassing.

My Xander:

--Knows Anya was the great love of his life.

--Didn't think he was hers.

--Spent much of the cross country trip on the school bus scribbling out what to put on the headstone he's going to put up for her in Cleveland.

--Will still be working on it when they reach Cleveland.
"What do you say about a 1,000 year old ex Vengeance Demon who died?"

--Knows she'll probably haunt him for making Cleveland her final resting place...

--Really hopes she does.

--Feeling much more confident in Willow's mojo after the scythe spell.

--Wonders if it would be wrong to ask her to try to restore the sight to his left eye...

My Dawn:

--Was secretly hoping the essence of the scythe spell would reveal that she was a Potential afterall.

--Will never tell Buffy that.

--Thinks she'd make a pretty good Watcher.

--Really has forgiven Willow.

--Knows that Willow doesn't think she has.

--Challenged Andrew to a memorial game of D&D on the bus, in honor of Amanda.

--She cried.

--Then she kicked his a**.



It had to be asked -- matching mole, 15:54:57 08/11/03 Mon

Which Scooby and/or member of AI would choose to run for governor of California and what would the focus of their campaign be?

I think Lorne would be the ideal candidate - formerly successful entrepeneur (the destruction of his club twice is hardly his fault), in the entertainment industry, and knows lots of people. Like a certain other candidate he is also an immigrant and a political outsider. Lorne is also a good people person (being?). What more could you ask?

Lorne would of course come out strongly on the side of tolerance, backing gay marriage, drug decrimminalization, and social services for undocumented aliens (being one himself). Lorne would make gun control unecessary by magically preventing violence throughout the state.

Of course Lorne may not be eligible to run (see undocumented alien bit above). In which case I shift my support to Cordelia - sure she's in a coma but if she ever wakes up then she'd have the state in shape in no time. Of course as a non-resident of California my support is immaterial.


[> Re: It had to be asked -- Sophist, 16:24:44 08/11/03 Mon

my support is immaterial

I'm sure there's a BtVS joke in there somewhere.


[> Got my support! -- mamcu, 18:30:43 08/11/03 Mon

And Lorne should also really be able to get the Green vote!


[> Re: It had to be asked -- CW, 06:04:27 08/12/03 Tue

I'd have to encourage Lilah to run. We know she can't be bought because her soul has long since been sold! Being dead might be a problem, but she be the ideal choice of the voters of all political leanings who are dead from the neck up!


[> Naturally, it would be... -- Gyrus, 10:58:33 08/12/03 Tue

...Anya. Here's the text of her campaign speech:

"Hi, I'm Anya Jenkins. Vote for me because I'm much smarter than the other candidates and my buttocks have a more pleasing shape. Also, I'm good with money. California is in debt up to its eyeballs, and I have 1100 years of experience in making people pay.

"Why are you all still sitting there? Go vote for me! Now!"


[> [> ROTFLOL!!! -- LittleBit, 17:09:59 08/12/03 Tue



[> [> LOL!!!!! That was good -- VR, 19:47:44 08/12/03 Tue




Must-see-DVD alert! ... *Futurama Volume 2* due for release tomorrow ! -- OnM, who's sayin', 'nuff said., 19:50:41 08/11/03 Mon


[> Already ordered! Can't wait! -- Rob, 22:23:21 08/11/03 Mon


[> More exciting-beyond-belief cartoon news: The Looney Tunes Golden Collection on DVD! -- cjl (obsessively complete details below), 07:26:43 08/12/03 Tue

The Looney Tunes Golden Collection
Release Date: October 28, 2003
MSRP: $64.92
Discs: Four

Synopsis: They're the crown princes of animation. They're the international ambassadors of cartoon comedy. They're the fabulously funny friends you grew up with! And now, 56 of the very best animated shorts starring the very wackiest Warner Bros. cartoon characters have been rounded up on DVD for the first time ever in The Looney Tunes Golden Collection! Just barely contained in four special edition discs, each specially selected short has been brilliantly restored and re-mastered to its original, uncut, anvil-dropping, laughter-inducing glory! Featuring some of the very earliest, ground-breaking on-screen appearances of many all-time Looney Tunes favorites, it's an unprecedented celebration for cartoon-lovers eager to re-live the heady, hilarious, golden age of Warner Bros. animation! Sparkling with one unforgettable, landmark animated marvel after another, there's that icon of carrot-crunching aplomb, Bugs Bunny, in a dazzling assortment of his very best classic shorts. Also highlighted in their own delightfully zany series of cartoon gems: the ever-flustered Daffy Duck and eternal straight-man Porky Pig. Plus, all the rest of the beloved Looney Tunes lineup starring in some of the most wildly imaginative cartoon shorts ever created! Including an array of exclusive bonus DVD features from expert commentaries to insights into the evolution of these classic characters, this is the ultimate animated experience for anyone who's ever thrilled to the timeless query: "Ehhh? what's up, Doc?"

Aspect Ratio: Original Aspect Ratio - 1.33 Standard [4:3 Transfer]
Subtitles: English, French, Spanish
Special Features: Audio Commentary, Documentaries, Featurette, Introduction

Disc #1: Bugs Bunny

14 remastered Bugs Bunny cartoons:

1. Baseball Bugs
2. Rabbit Seasoning
3. Long-Haired Hare
4. High Diving Hare
5. Bully for Bugs
6. What's Up Doc?
7. Rabbit's Kin
8. Water, Water Every Hare
9. Big House Bunny
10. Big Top Bunny
11. My Bunny Lies Over the Sea
12. Wabbit Twouble
13. Ballot Box Bunny
14. Rabbit of Seville

Special Features:
´ a special opening greeting from Chuck Jones;
´ Audio track commentaries on these cartoons:
RABBIT SEASONING (Mike Barrier & audio from his rare interviews with animators), LONG HAIRED HARE (Mike Barrier), HIGH DIVING HARE (Greg Ford), BULLY FOR BUGS (Mike Barrier), WHAT'S UP DOC? (Greg Ford), RABBIT'S KIN (Stan Freberg), BIG TOP BUNNY (Mike Barrier), WABBIT TWOUBLE (Mike Barrier);
´ separate music tracks for RABBIT SEASONING, WHAT'S UP DOC? and RABBIT'S KIN
´ Featurettes on Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam, and Elmer Fudd with exclusive interviews;
´ THE BOYS FROM TERMITE TERRACE part 1 (rare John Canemaker documentary);
´ animated sequences from MY DREAM IS YOURS and TWO GUYS FROM TEXAS
´ THE BUGS BUNNY SHOW bonus materials: Bridging sequences from episode #1648 "A Star Is Bored"; Mel Blanc recording session from episode #1639 "The Astro-Nuts"
´ Bonus shorts:
FIFTY YEARS OF BUGS BUNNY IN 3 1/2 MINUTES (1989 short)
BLOOPER BUNNY (1991) with commentary by Greg Ford
´ A gallery including Lobby Cards, photgraphs, music cue sheets and original dialogue transcripts.
´Trailers from 1950s theatrical compilation shows: BUGS BUNNY'S CARTOON FESTIVAL and BUGS BUNNY'S CARTOON JAMBOREE

Disc #2: Daffy and Porky

14 remastered Porky and Daffy cartoons:

1. Duck Amuck
2. Dough for the Do-Do
3. Drip-Along Daffy
4. Scaredy Cat
5. The Ducksters
6. The Scarlet Pumpernickel
7. Yankee Doodle Daffy
8. Porky Chops
9. Wearing of the Grin
10. Deduce, You Say
11. Boobs in the Woods
12. Golden Yeggs
13. Rabbit Fire
14. Duck Dodgers in the 24 1/2 Century

Special Features:

´ Audio track commentaries on DUCK AMUCK, DRIP-ALONG DAFFY, THE SCARLET PUMPERNICKLE, WEARING OF THE GRIN, and DUCK DODGERS by Mike Barrier using his exclusive interview audio with classic animators.
´ Separate music tracks for DUCK AMUCK, DRIP-ALONG DAFFY,THE SCARLET PUMPERNICKLE and RABBIT FIRE.
´ Bonus featurettes on MARVIN MARTIAN, Porky Pig, and DAFFY DUCK
´ THE BOYS FROM TERMITE TERRACE part 2
´ A gallery including Lobby Cards, photgraphs, music cue sheets and original dialogue transcripts.

Disc #3: All-Stars

Premiere Collection Vol. 1 includes 14 remastered Looney Tunes:

1. Elmer's Candid Camera - Elmer Fudd
2. Bugs Bunny and the Three Bears - Bugs Bunny
3. Fast and Furry-ous - Road Runner & Wile E. Coyote
4. Hair-Raising Hare - Bugs Bunny, Gossamer
5. The Awful Orphan - Porky Pig, Charlie Dog
6. Haredevil Hare - Bugs Bunny, Marvin Martian
7. For Scent-imental Reasons - Pepe le Pew
8. Frigid Hare - Bugs Bunny
9. The Hypo-condricat - Claude Cat, Hubie & Bertie
10. Baton Bunny - Bugs Bunny
11. Feed the Kitty - Marc Anthony & Pussyfoot
12. Don't Give Up the Sheep - Ralph Wolf & Sam Sheepdog
13. Bugs Bunny Gets the Boid - Bugs Bunny, Beaky Buzzard
14. Tortoise Wins by a Hare - Bugs Bunny, Cecil Turtle

Special Features:

´ Audio track commentaries compiled by Michael Barrier for FAST & FURRY-OUS, HAIR RAISING HARE, HAREDEVIL HARE, FOR SCENT-I-MENTAL REASONS and BUGS BUNNY GETS THE BOID; FEED THE KITTY (commentary by Greg Ford), BUGS BUNNY AND THE THREE BEARS (Commentary by Stan Freberg).
´ Separate music tracks for BATON BUNNY and FEED THE KITTY
´ Featurettes on the ROAD RUNNER, MEL BLANC and CARL STALLING
´ TOONHEADS: THE LOST CARTOONS
´ Original storyboards for HAIR RAISING HARE and THE HYPO-CHRONDRI-CAT
´ A gallery including Lobby Cards, photgraphs, music cue sheets and original dialogue transcripts.

Disc #4: All-Stars

Premiere Collection Vol. 2 includes 14 remastered Looney Tunes including:

1. Canary Row - Sylvester & Tweety
2. Bunker Hill Bunny - Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam
3. Kit for Cat - Sylvester, Elmer Fudd
4. Putty Tat Twouble - Sylvester & Tweety
5. Bugs and Thugs - Bugs Bunny, Rocky & Mugsy
6. Canned Feud - Sylvester
7. Lumber Jerks - Goofy Gophers
8. Speedy Gonzales - Speedy Gonzales, Sylvester
9. Tweety's S.O.S. - Sylvester & Tweety
10. The Foghorn Leghorn - Foghorn Leghorn, Henery Hawk
11. Daffy Duck Hunt - Daffy Duck, Porky Pig
12. Early to Bet - The Gambling Bug
13. Broken Leghorn - Foghorn Leghorn
14. Devil May Hare - Bugs Bunny, Tasmanian Devil

Special Features
´ Audio track commentaries compiled by Michael Barrier for TWEETY'S S.O.S. and THE FOGHORN LEGHORN and commentaries by Jerry Beck on CANARY ROW, DEVIL MAY HARE, CANNED FEUD and SPEEDY GONZALES
´ Separate music tracks for PUTTY TAT TWOUBLE, BROKEN LEGHORN, and SPEEDY GONZALES.
´ Featurettes on SPEEDY GONZALES, FRIZ FRELENG AND TWEETY & SYLVESTER, and ROBERT McKIMSON AND FOGHORN LEGHORN.
´ Bonus all-new 50 minute documentary "Irreverent Imagination: The Golden Age Of Looney Tunes" narrated by Stan Freberg.
´ The complete "BOSKO THE TALK-INK KID" pilot
´ Virgil Ross pencil tests
´ A gallery including Lobby Cards, photgraphs, music cue sheets and original dialogue transcripts.

[> [> damn! i'm gonna actually have to get a dvd player, aren't i? -- anom, 22:50:58 08/12/03 Tue

Like I'm gonna have time to watch all that...like I'm not gonna watch it anyway....

>sigh< ...if you don't see me on the board for awhile, you'll know I finally succumbed to the lure.

[> [> [> Four seasons of BtVS on DVD (and soon to be 5) and no player yet?? -- OnM, quoting Bill the Cat: Acckk!, 07:22:30 08/13/03 Wed

If you would like any assistance choosing a player, mail me.

:-)

[> [> Aren't they coming out with a Loony Tune movie, too? -- W-w-w-w-WickedBuffy, 09:15:48 08/13/03 Wed


[> [> [> Yep. "Looney Tunes: Back In Action!" Saw the previews. Looked awful. -- cjl, 09:34:45 08/13/03 Wed



Lorne/The Host vs Maggie Walsh --
JBone, 20:10:19 08/11/03 Mon

It just don't work, Genie. It's like a song. Now, I can hold a note for a long time. Actually, I can hold a note forever, but eventually that's just noise. It's the change we're listening for. The note coming after and the one after that. That's what makes it music.

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html

I'm hoping to have yesterday's results up later tonight.


[> Evil Bitch Monster of Death No Longer -- cjl, 20:43:26 08/11/03 Mon

Relocating to L.A., Maggie captures Lorne, hoping to incorporate his empathic ability into a new cyberdemonoid. "Gee, Mags," says Lorne, strapped to one of her lab tables, "you seem a little tense. Wanna talk about it, sweetie?" Since nobody can resist the twinkle in Lorne's eye for long, talk about it she does. The two of them wind up in a local karaoke bar, where Maggie slams back tequila shots in between childhood reveries, and she sings an off-key but passionate rendition of Heart's "Magic Man" that tells Lorne more than he wanted to know. Eventually, Maggie passes out on the table, sleeping peacefully for the first time in twenty years. "Aww," says Lorne, celebrating his victory with a seabreeze, "she looks so cute."


[> No contest -- matching mole, 21:45:41 08/11/03 Mon

The future governor of California hits Prof. Walsh up for a signature supporting his candidacy in return for state sponsorship of her human/demon chimaerization research. Lulled into a complacency by Lorne's promise to waive all animal care paperwork the good professor eventually comes to her senses tied to a telephone and soliciting campaign donations from San Bernadino mucous demons. But by then it's much too late as Lorne is already on his third encore.


[> Re: Lorne/The Host vs Maggie Walsh -- Anneth, 21:53:09 08/11/03 Mon

I know, I know, Lorne ought to win, but Maggie made such a cool, icky zombie! I have to vote for cool, icky zombies. I just gotta!


[> yesterday's results -- Jay, 21:58:40 08/11/03 Mon

Well that was, uh interesting. We have another vote peak (not quite double the usual), that may or may not be held up by vote totals to come. In the meantime, Faith ends up with more votes, and a lot more comments, so I'm willing to tacitly allow the results to stand. At least until people start emailing me confessions.

I have to mention that I need to update my comment policy. Comments should be in mostly English. I'll play that one a little loosely, since I enjoy the occasional phrase in whatever language. But most importantly, no damn Netspeak! I'm not including it in the comments if I can't figure out what the hell it means. And if there is no name, it's an automatic discard. So, for the first time, I'm tossing out multiple comments.

It occurs to me that I should formally welcome aboard the new tiebreaker council. Tchaikovsky, Diana and MaeveRigan will be helping guide this bulky ship out of the first round. I'll have more to say about all the tiebreakers (besides thank you) before the second round, but for now, "Anchors away" will have to do.

And now, the results.


[> [> paragraph to be added to rules: comments -- Jay - looking for feedback, 22:28:16 08/11/03 Mon

I do require a name with the comment. If no name is attributed to a comment, it will not be included in the Results. English is the preferred language of the comment area, but the occasional French, Spanish, Canadian, etc. phrase will be happily accepted. What will never be accepted is netspeak. This unintelligible crap will be kicked to the curb every time. I'm as dumb as anyone, but I consider netspeak to be the toejam of the internet.


[> Re: Lorne/The Host vs Maggie Walsh -- ApOpHiS, 22:01:55 08/11/03 Mon

Lorne simply has too vast an arsenal to go down to a Psych professor. Even discounting the empathic abilities (and it's a gamble to assume Maggie had any emotions), Lorne still has several abilities to fall back on. He's got the sonic scream working for him; if Banshee can take out an entire wall of Phalanx with it, Lorne can take Maggie. There's his lack of intoxication-getting (I didn't sleep much today); he could challenge her to a drinking contest and clean house. There's always his decapitation trick; if it comes down to hand-to-hand, Lorne could engineer things to lead to his decapitation. Maggie would think he was dead and take him to her lab for study. When his head starts talking to her, she dies of a heart attack. Lorne is one well-rounded demon.


[> All you need is love. Lorne all the way, baby! -- HonorH, 23:22:32 08/11/03 Mon

Yeah, yeah, mad scientist, Evil Bitch Monster of Death, Initiative dominatrix, whatever. Lorne took his dream of singing out of Pylea and to L.A., ran a demon karaoke bar that got wrecked repeatedly thanks to Angel and his crew, even braved Beige!Angel and got one fine rant out of him--that, my friends, takes moxie. So I think that Lorne would take one look at Maggie, soothe her savage breast with his songs, then hit his Patented High Note to distract the commandos and hightail it out of there (after checking out said commandos 'cause, hey, hotties).


[> Lorne in a song. -- Caira, 04:18:02 08/12/03 Tue



[> Lorne please -- Tchaikovsky, 12:45:38 08/12/03 Tue



[> Maggie Walsh -- d'Herblay, 17:46:22 08/12/03 Tue

MAGG13 IS l33t!! SHE HAS MAD SK1LZZ!! U R DUM F U VOTE 4 LORN3!!

Oh great, now Jay's going to delete me. And after all the careful reasoning and convincing argumentation I've put into this post.


[> [> The only people who can delete this post... -- Masq, 19:08:02 08/12/03 Tue

Are vous et moi.

& I HAV NO PLANZ 2 DEL U.


U?


[> [> Great. -- Jay, 19:08:39 08/12/03 Tue

If this is what it takes to make d'H to post some of his smart ass comments, I'll make up a rule a week.



My Doubleyew Bee.. The Whedon Brothers *smirk* -- ZachsMind, 21:14:29 08/11/03 Mon

This is an improved draft of something I may have posted here before. Actually I just rewrote it from scratch, but hopefully it's better than my previous attempt. I've read that there are still little rumors that the Slayer franchise is not dead. There is ..dare I say potential..? However we probably won't see anything before the fall of 2004, if at all. And Tru Calling will have to fail, and personally being a fan of Dushku both in and out of the Whedonverse, I for one don't wish ill on Tru Calling. I want it to do well, but let's face it if it sucks I'm gonna be ticked she turned down "Faith The Series" to headline a clunker.

So anyway, without further ado, here's my take on how the WB's gonna look a year from now after Joss Whedon & Co have rested up a bit, the principal actors from BtVS realize there's nothing out there better written than what they've already been doing, and Sarah Michelle Gellar wins a few Oscars (read into that what you will).



After a traumatic event that happened after the Cratering of Sunnydale but before the 2004 fall tv season, many of the major principal players got into an argument and split. The details of which would not be made clear immediately, but over time we'd learn why instead of the Scoobies remaining together, they each branch off and start their own series.

FAITH THE SERIES:
TheTieSpin - The Fugitive meets Run Lola Run.
Fan vs Mainstream - This show would have basic elements from Buffy and Angel, but only as it applies to Faith specifically. By the second season most elements of her past would be made inert, allowing her freedom to explore the character on her own terms. Cross polination between series would be kept to a minimum. Most stories would be 'on the road' so while they'd exist in Whedon's universe, one wouldn't need to have every episode of Buffy memorized to keep track of Faith's destiny.
Summary - Faith (Eliza Dushku) is on the run from the law, while chasing after the evil that the law can't touch. After a touching moment with Robin Wood (D.B. Woodside) where Faith decides to return to prison and turn herself in. Faith learns by sheer accident that everything the Mayor said to her was a lie, and that not only did the Mayor help in amassing evidence that would get her thrown in jail, but she was completely framed. She never killed that Finch guy. Somehow it was faked. How does she know? Cuz Finch is still walking around.

WANNA BLESSED BE:
TheTieSpin - Bosom Buddies meets The Paper Chase, with a little Ellen thrown in. And maybe a smidgeon of Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
Fan vs Mainstream - The feel of this series would be remarkably different. Most of the stories would take place in a limited number of sets that can all exist on one or two soundstages, performed live before a studio audience. It'd be a combination of a satire of sitcoms as they've existed for decades, but also with a 21st century sensibility. It would also just be deliciously weird and even disturbing. Willow's past would be kept vague, described only when absolutely necessary.
Summary - A sort of situation comedy featuring Willow (played by Alyson Hannigan) as a college student in a co-ed dorm. She's gay. Everyone knows that. What they don't know is she's a witch. Not the kind that rides on brooms and not a serious pagan worshipper who doesn't believe in all that mumbo jumbo. Nope. Actually Willow is somewhere in between, or maybe in a class all by herself, because she's also a born jew who is contemplating returning to the faith. Something that happened to her recently was a euphoric, cathartic experience which makes her believe there's a supreme force of some sort out there but.. well dwelling on it too much gives her the equivalent of a brain freeze from too much ice cream, so she doesn't know what to think. A mystery to her classmates, Willow has tried to swear off magic, preferring to use it only in emergencies. However, her past has a tendency of showing up at least once a week, something about her seems to attract weirdness, and her classmates always seem to be in various forms of trouble. Featuring Kennedy as an ex-girlfriend who's still in love with her.

ZEPPO THE SERIES:
TheTieSpin - Sliders and Back to the Future going up against Twilight Zone and Bill & Ted.
Fan versus Mainstream - This one would probably end up being a cult hit. It'd be heavy into continuity variations with other tv series, but not necessarily heavy in casting cross polination. Different actors would play characters similar to those familiar to Xander. A redhead Buffy. A male Anya. This would be explained a number of ways - changes in genetic heritage causing cosmetic differences in the DNA, but in other ways the characters would be more familiar to our lead. It's possible that nonfans of the WhedonVerse would get lost, but part of the fun of the series would be getting lost. It's taking the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics to an absurd but fun extreme. Think of the episodes Restless and Zeppo and mix them together. That would be this series.
Summary - Nicholas Brendon plays a Xander Harris who recently lost an eye fighting evil. He lost his friends soon after that. Literally. He also lost his reality. He's presently in a reality where there's another Xander, played by Brendon's brother Kelly. A Xander that calls himself Alex Harris, a successful construction worker who never met Buffy, and has two eyes. When they meet, they find themselves drifting from one alternate reality to another, at seemingly random intervals. Other people from their lives would come and go as well. When possible, actors from other series would guest star or play recurring roles, but this would not be necessary. Each week the two Harrisses would find themselves in new alternate realities, being very confused as to the how and whys of it all. Over the course of the season they'd learn clues and bump into people who would help them try to make sense of their predicament, and they'd forever grasp at any straw that looked like a way back to the realities they each call home. Along the way, they'd hopefully be very funny, they'd be running to things and from things a lot, and overall the feel of the series would be an action comedy.

RIPPER THE SERIES:
TheTieSpin: This one's kinda hard to convert into suit speak.
Fan vs Mainstream - ASH reading a phone book would please the fans. This one however would be for the grownups. It'd be a six part hour long series, filmed entirely on location in the UK. The events of BtVS would be a part of Giles' past but would not be integral to the plot, because this series would go back a bit further than that.
Summary - Anthony Stewart Head plays a middle aged man named Rupert "Ripper" Giles who deceptively appears unassuming returns to his native England after a trip abroad. To this man, saving the world isn't a special occasion. It's an occupational hazard, and something he wants to retire from. Having participated in more world saving events than he cares to count, Giles just wants to climb up to his old flat, curl up in a quilted comforter with a hot cup of tea and a good book. However, a member of a coven for whom he owes a favor arrives at his doorstep and explains he is needed one last time. She convinces him its simply a house cleansing. The coven believes a house to be haunted and needs him there as an objective witness with film equiptment so they'd have evidence of the event to show their peers in the international wiccan community. Perfectly harmless. However, when Giles arrives at the house, things slowly take a turn for the worse. Over time it's revealed that these particular spirits which are haunting this house happen to be connected to Giles' distant past. They're not common ghosts of the living. They're evil demons that an impertinent youth accidently introduced into this world, led by an old soul that was once human, but now prefers to think of itself as a god. He and his evil friends want to feed on the house and everything that comes into it, as if it were a Venus Fly Trap or a roach motel for human souls. The only way to rid the world of this evil is for Giles to confront memories he's spent a lifetime suppressing. In essence, Giles has to confront Ripper. The real Ripper. The reason he got the nickname in the first place.

WHERE:
TheTieSpin: Kinda vaguely Jay & Silent Bob, but without the drug references. One guy doesn't talk much. The other one talks too much. Stuff happens. They react to it. It's funny. It's suspenseful. It's cool. Try not to think too hard about it and you'll get it and you'll get advertisers to get it. Broadcast it and they will come.
Summary - Seth Green is a werewolf. But only part of the time. The rest of the time he's just this normal guy who plays guitar and has travelled the world and y'know I think he saved that world a few times. And other stuff. He doesn't let it get to his head. Mostly he just experiences the world and deals with it as it comes. He doesn't, y'know, say a lot? Really. Usually there's somebody else nearby who hangs with him, and he just lets that person run their mouth whoever he or she is. Most recently it's some guy named Andrew (Tom Lenk) who can't read a map and is a little flaky. He said they got mutual friends. Oz keeps him around cuz he makes him laugh but makes no guarantees if his hairy counterpart gets a little peckish. Oz nods to the stuff he agrees with and stares off at the stuff he doesn't. And sometimes he's just gotta bail. But when things get bad, Oz stands up for good. When things get good, he finds himself getting a little freaked out cuz he doesn't know what to do with his hands. He's a champion who thinks he's just a guitar player. Forever in search of the diminished fifth chord, Oz stares down demons and then shrugs at them.



One more thing. In the season seven and series finale of ANGEL THE SERIES, Angel will finally rid himself of vampirism without turning to dust. Then Buffy shows up, announces she's given up being slayer-ee for Lent, and Angel marries her. Lorne performs the ceremony. Fred catches the bouquet.


[> Spike in "Destined" (Well Known Casting Spoiler within) -- Finn Mac Cool, 00:20:03 08/13/03 Wed

OK, this is one that has absolutely NO chance of ever being made, what with Spike moving over to "Angel", but here is an idea I had for how a Spike centered spinoff might go:

It would be called "Destined". It all begins with Spike's resurrection. He is brought back by a mysterious organization known as the Circle of Prophets. The Circle is centered around five powerful seers, as well as many minor ones. Their purpose in life is to record prophecies; in fact, most of the prophecies seen on "Buffy" and "Angel" have come from them. However, all they do is record. Long ago they gave up attempting to change fate, because their efforts always ended in failure. While sometimes it was possible to find a loophole in their prophecies (like Buffy did in "Prophecy Girl"), they could never truly be defied. Everything they predicted came to pass.

That is, until Spike came around. The Circle of Prophets has made many predictions over the centuries, some of them world changing, others less so. One of these prophecies concerned Spike. It foretold his death at the hands of the Slayer. It even gave a precise date: January 12th, 1998. But, as we all know, Spike didn't die then. He should have though. That was the day that he revived Drusilla's strength and Buffy dropped an organ on them. That organ was meant to kill Spike, but, for reasons even the Circle hasn't been able to discover, it didn't. This created quite a stir. If this vampire could defy fate, then maybe they could to. Unfortunately, their renewed attempts to prevent their own prophecies were as futile as before. Only one other prophecy was ever altered: it was predicted that, in the defeat of the First Evil's army of Turok-Han, Buffy would wear the amulet of purification, giving her own life in the process. But, once again, Spike messed things up. He was the one who wore the amulet and made the self-sacrafice; he took what should have been Buffy's role. Everything else went according to the prophecy (the mass calling of Slayers, Buffy's whole plan of attack), but somehow Spike changed things.

That's why the Circle of Prophets brought Spike back to life. They realized that, by surviving when he should have died, Spike was an element that prophecies could no longer predict. The events of "Chosen" proved that, by placing him into other prophecies, they could be altered, too. The Circle's intent in bringing Spike back is to use him as a prophecy thwarter. When an evil is predicted, Spike is the only one who can stop it, because he's the only one fate can't seem to touch.

That's the basic premise of the show. Spike is brought back as human (since the amulet burned his demon essence away), but the Circle makes sure he's still as strong as he was before, just so he doesn't accidentally die on them again. He lives in a very nice house or apartment, but doesn't get to spend much time in it since the Circle will often open a portal to some part of the world where Spike has to go to thwart fate once again (sidenote: when sent to a country where people don't speak English, Spike finds himself suddenly fluent in it, all thanks to fancy portal technology). The Circle itself remains mostly in the background, their primary contact with Spike being a junior member named Lily, who functions primarily as Spike's sidekick. Spike an Lily are the only two cast members, though the concept naturally lends itself to lots of one shot characters in each episode.

I think this idea would make a fairly good spinoff. In some ways it's like the show "Early Edition", but usually involving some supernatural threat (it's explained that paranormal events are the easiest for prophets to predict). Spike would get to do a lot of different things in the role: on the one hand, he's acting as an agent of Chaos, which is what he's always been best at, however tension would naturally rise given that he wouldn't like serving the Circle's every beck and call. He would also be interacting with several new people in each episode along with the destiny thwarting and butt-kicking. Not to mention that, with his humanity restored, he'd have some interesting adjustments to make (I imagine the first time he tries smoking he'd end up with a coughing fit).

The main theme of the show would naturally revolve around fate, free will, and whether either truly exists. At first, it would seem like Spike's this really great hero, freeing people from the strict confines of fate. However, with time, doubts naturally come up. What if Spike is messing up a grand cosmic plan intended to improve the world? What if he isn't really defying fate at all, instead merely playing into the hands of a destiny even the Circle can't penetrate? What if Spike's ability to alter fate is actually a sign of impending doom, where the law of cause and effect that necessitates fate breaks down, leaving the world in Chaos?

Any thoughts? Is it too complicated? Too cliche? Or is it just plain ill-conceived?


[> and Anya does 'Sex and the City' meets 'Fatal Attraction' with a bit of 'Looking for Mr Goodbar'? -- MsGiles, 05:59:41 08/12/03 Tue

Great autumn programme!

FAITH THE SERIES:
TheTieSpin - The Fugitive meets Run Lola Run.

This one has legs..

ZEPPO THE SERIES:
More than a hint of Farscape, with its lost friends, alternate realities and the two Harrises. Maybe it's not tactful to mention Farscape at the moment. Wait until it makes its mark in syndication. But add in loads of exotically-dressed martial babes with strange powers..

RIPPER THE SERIES:
Just don't let the BBC get involved: they're fine on costume drama, but their fantasy tends to go Clunk. 'Strange', anyone? C4 might be OK though. Or Canal+. wait, how about a pan-European series, with the choicer bits of, say Prague, Venice, and Maigret's Paris standing in for the noir of LA?

WHERE:
How about giving this one a 'Spiderman' meets 'The Doors' spin? Also 'Hulk': when he gets mad .. it's furtime! Then weave in the showbiz fizz. The groupies, the trashed apartments. The guy's a star .. and he's an animal! He wakes up and finds the wolf has signed a contract to EMI, and he wanted to stay indie ..


[> [> More Suitspeak -- ZachsMind, 09:51:20 08/12/03 Tue

I avoided including Anya or Buffy in any show ideas because it's pretty down that Caulfield and Gellar are not interested in tv or the Buffyverse right now. However, Hannigan has voiced an interest in doing a sitcom (hence my attempt to see Willow in a sitcom context - not too far fetched), ASH would consider working with Whedon again so long as the commute is not over the Atlantic, hence the on location shooting in England. Brendon's pilot fell through so let's face it the guy's available, and with his brother equally talented it's a no brainer.

As for Seth Green.. have you seen what he's been doing lately on the silver screen? You haven't? That's what I'm talkin' about. You HAVE? That's what I'm talkin' about. It's time for Green to come home. I like your idea of focusing more on his band status. Howzabout this? The story starts present day, years after he left Sunnydale. He's kept his identity hidden basically cuz he just hasn't done anything to bring attention to himself. However, he gets into a band that's doing really well, and then his band's agent finds out he's a werewolf dude, and wants to cash in on that - turn it into a gimmick that launches the band into superstardom. I mean, a guitar playing werewolf. Why wouldn't that look good on t-shirts and an album cover? =)

I was thinking Ripper would be fine with BBC involvement. It should be more of a costume drama with very few special effects. The story would be told from Giles' perspective, and we'd see everything as real through his eyes. Even the entities of his past coming back to haunt him in the house would be 'real' to him. So that the audience doesn't know what's physically real, what's mystically real, and what's just illusions going on in Giles' head. The house would bring out the worst and best in him. It's more of a suspense mystery thriller than an action oriented visual extravaganza. It also wouldn't be very much with the funny. It'd be dark, dramatic and disturbing. Giles in an almost gothic, heroic environment.


[> Don't forget the Brats! -- HonorH, 13:25:04 08/12/03 Tue

"Unnatural," starring Michelle Trachtenberg and Vincent Kartheiser: a story of young love and angst set against the backdrop of an east coast college. Dawn Summers meets and falls in love with a handsome young man named Connor as a freshman. However, odd things almost immediately start happening. Connor has struggled for years with horrifying, hellish nightmares and the knowledge that he's "different"--stronger, with sharper senses than anyone else. When a demon called Sahjahn tracks him down with the intent to kill, Connor and Dawn go on the road in a search for answers. Each week brings a new adventure, with the constant threat of Sahjahn in their minds, as they kick ass and make love across America . . .


[> [> I factored 'my' brats into Zeppo... -- ZachsMind, 15:02:12 08/12/03 Tue

Actually, I planned to include Michelle Trachtenberg (Dawn the green glowing energy ball disquised as a young woman), Danny Strong (Jonathan the dead guy disguised as a not so dead guy) and Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy Madison the rat sometimes figuratively and sometimes literally) as supporting and recurring characters for ZEPPO THE SERIES. However that would depend on the availability of the talent. For ZEPPO I could technically get anyone to play any part, except for Nicholas Brendon himself. He (and his brother) would be the only constant. Still, the best subplots I can think of for complimenting Xander involve Jonathan, Amy and Dawn.


[> Caulfield, Allen & Mathau -- CHARGED -- ZachsMind, 17:34:54 08/12/03 Tue

Emma Caulfield, Elizabeth Allen and Juliet Mathau star in Charged. Actually this idea would work better without being in the Joss Universe, but it's more challenging to remain consistent, so let's see if I can merge the two.

Anya crawls out of the crater and realizes that not only is she not dead, but after surviving the destruction of an entire city, she must be immortal. She's always been immortal. It's not that D'Hoffryn was able to give her power or take it away. She's always had it, and it's only been limited because she's actually believed it when D'Hoffryn tells her he took her powers away. After a simple test, she realizes she's still powerful, she's always been powerful, and D'Hoffryn's a jerk.

Amy Madison (ex-rat) gets Anya's attention as she too climbs out of the rubble. Anya helps her out of there, and Amy explains that just before her Mom's old house blew up, she found a family album with a picture of her father -- it's D'Hoffryn. Furthermore, also in the family album is an envelope containing evidence that D'Hoffryn fathered many human females, some of which he later persuaded to join him as vengeance demons, but others he didn't. One of those lost children of D'Hoffryn turns out to be Drusilla. So Amy & Anya seek her out.

They find her living in a house in Cleveland that looks just like the house in Charmed. Only Dru has lost her vampirism, gained her soul, and gotten herself pregnant by an angel who won't return her calls. Oh. And she's still VERY insane. However, Dru miraculously seems to be the perfect complement to Anya's questionable use of sheer honesty, and Amy's tendency to turn ex-boyfriends into small rodents. D'Hoffryn shows up now and then to try to patch things up with his girls, but they all hate him, each for their own reasons, so they blow him up a lot.

Three sisters by the same father and different mothers.

An ex-vampire, an ex-demon, and an ex-rat against the world.

They're not particularly good.
They're not necessarily evil.
They are CHARGED.


[> [> and d'Hoffryns first name turns out to be Charlemagne.. -- MsGiles, 07:15:03 08/14/03 Thu

Charlie's Demons (he wishes)



Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- KdS, 08:23:47 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. Who else?

Best Big Bad: Warren Meers. The Big Bad who might really kill you.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Not so much for what it was, but for what it could have been.

Best Little Bad: Faith (S3). The all-time best morally conflicted bad guy.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Caleb. "Gee, I sure do hate women." Repeat ad ennui.

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet. Just for the originality.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Penis-Head Woman. Biggest Freudian slip in TV history.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew. Who we might have really have ended up as in the Buffyverse.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood. Patronising git who couldn't even come up with a decent plan to kill Spike.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Dru. 'Cos evil people do care about each other. Just not everyone else.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Faith (post-Orpheus). How Willow might have actually got past her Inner Darkness issues, without an enema ex machina.

Most underrated character: Riley. Hated for having a heartbeat.

Most overrated character: Ethan Rayne. Funny, but no way does he deserve the attention he gets in fanfic.

Character you wish had been used more: Quentin. It would have been so cool if Buffy had actually had to deal with a dick-on-the-side-of-good on a more regular basis.


[> It's all been said but I have to play -- Artemis, 21:46:25 08/12/03 Tue

Favorite Scooby. Love them all. But I most identify with
Buffy.
Best Big Bad: The Mayor, A killer this likeable is just irresistable

Worst Big Bad: Adam- I never liked Frankenstein either.Too slow.

Best Little Bad: Faith of course. Is there even a contest?

Worst Little Bad: Annointed One. Did he do anything?

Best Monster of Week:3 way Tie. Sweet, The Gentlemen and Dracula.

Worst Monster of the week:The Jock Football Player in, I believe the title is "Some Assembly Required Required". Kind of a Frankenstein story (See above regarding Frankenstein)

Best/Worst good ambiguous supporting player: No opinion

Best Ship. (canonical) Buffy and Spike. Never boring
to me. Complicated, Sexy, Hot.

Best Ship(uncanonical)Willow and Xander

Most under-rated Character: Riley great character, just not with Buffy.

Most overrated character: Amy. Liked the character but probably would have forgotten her if she wasn't mentioned so often on boards.

Character or characters you wish they had used more: . The First Slayer, Buffy as the First, Quentin.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Tyreseus, 22:37:25 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby:
Tara. Loved her from day one. Even when she screwed up, I never felt a need to bitch-slap her into sense again. I always felt sympathitic to her, no matter what she did.

Best Big Bad:
I'm actually going with Willow on this one. Probably because it was the most emotionally upsetting big bad and almost-apocalypse for me as a viewer. Although I really, really wanted to vote for Glory here.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence):
I'll have to agree with the others who chime in for The Master here. On the other hand, he was almost entirely redeemed for me during his appearance in "The Wish." If he'd had more time to develope as a big bad (a full 22 episode season) I might feel differently.

Best Little Bad:
Spike/Dru.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence):
Professor Maggie Walsh. Sorry if this is an unpopular choice, but I thought her character was rather one-dimensional and uninspired. Even when the writers tried to inject her with some "mother love" dimensionality, I still found her boring.

Best Monster of the Week:
1) The Gentlemen, 2) Sweet, 3) the Judge

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence):
1) Machida, the penis-demon or Reptile Boy who paved the way for 2) the penis-head lady of Doublemeat Palace, 3) the creatures from the Sunnydale High swimming pool in "Go Fish"

Best good/ambiguous supporting character:
Ben, the intern. Talk about a justified moral dillema.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character:
The potentials as a whole - except Kennedy. Sorry, the brat princess was beginning to grow on me, which is more than I can say for Chloe, Vi, Rona, Amanda, Chinese Girl...

Favourite 'ship (canonical):
Willow and Tara. Their relationship is pretty much what turned me into a die-hard fan of the show.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical):
Dawn and Connor. One falsely implanted into the memories of her loved one, the other removed. Both other than human, in supernatural families, and have severe abandonment issues (although Dawn has coped with hers better. Maybe things would have been different if Connor had become a klepto).

Most underrated character:
Kennedy. I mean, she had 1/2 a season to prove herself and people just seem to hate her so much. I was iffy at first until I saw "The Killer in Me." Maybe I over-identify or somethign, but I don't understand why others dislike her so very much. She's not Tara, but why is everyone else grieving this longer than the characters on the show?

Most overrated character:
The Mayor. Beautifully portrayed, quirky and unique, but not - in my opinion - nearly as great or interesting as others seem to think he is.

Character you wish had been used more:
Jenny Calendar. She would have been especially interesting in Season 7 to torment Giles. I imagine a scene following Buffy's angry rejection of Giles ("Lies My Parents Told Me") where Jenny/The First drives Giles to drink, depression and despair.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- girlwiththebraids, 19:43:23 08/17/03 Sun

Favourite Scooby: Xander. Call me crazy, but I just love him the best.

Best Big Bad: the Mayor

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam. Bleh.

Best Little Bad: Dru (S2)...she did kill a slayer during Buffy's reign...who else can claim that?

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Spike. Lots of plans, no follow through. Dru was all the power in that relationship (and I'm only talking about S2 here)

Best Monster of the Week: Sunday.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): gotta go with the hell hounds.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Anya.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Tara

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Xander/Spike...how I wish...

Most underrated character: Angelus as big bad

Most overrated character: Anya.

Character you wish had been used more: Trick!! I so wish he hadn't died so soon.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Rufus, 04:47:25 08/13/03 Wed

Favourite Scooby: BUFFY

Best Big Bad: The Mayor

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam

Best Little Bad: Mr. Trick (nifty clothes)

Worst Little Bad: The Judge (What's that?)

Best Monster of the Week: Eye of Beljoxia cause it was creepy.

Worst Monster of the Week: Hell hounds in The Prom (imagine the bill for flea collars)


Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Anya

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Amy

Favourite 'ship (canonical): The ongoing relationship between the core Scoobies.....not going to the romantic ships....well I was fond of Willow/Tara, Willow/Oz, Xander/Cordy, Buffy/Riley, Giles/Jenny, Parker/branch used to hit him with....;)

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Principal Snyder and Giles

Most underrated character: Riley

Most overrated character: Faith

Character I wish I had used more: Principal Wood...;)


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Sophist, 09:38:56 08/13/03 Wed

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. But Willow's a close second.

Best Big Bad: A tough call, but I'm going with the Mayor.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam. No contest. Lame plan, utterly inept execution.

Best Little Bad: Spike/Dru. Another easy one.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Faith. Think about it: what did Faith actually accomplish which benefited the Mayor? Her only arguable success was getting the Books of Ascension, but even that was pretty much undone by Willow. She failed to deprive Angel of his soul; was tricked by B/A into revealing both her own double dealing and the Mayor's plans; gave a crucial clue to Buffy when she killed the professor; failed to kill Angel when she had the chance; and ended up stabbed and in a coma so that she was unavailable for the Mayor's big day. It doesn't get more incompetent than this.

Best Monster of the Week: Tie between The Gentlemen and Sweet. I'm surprised Sunday hasn't gotten more votes.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Does Sam Finn count? If not, then I'll go with Zach or whomever from Saved By The Bell/Help.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: This is a tough call. I liked Forrest in S4, Spike in S5/6, and both Kennedy and Andrew in S7. Geez, if I hadn't included Kennedy, I'd be sounding like Rob here.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Buffy. But W/T is a close second.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Spike/Dru/Willow. Great material for Dead Soul here.

Most underrated character: Kennedy.

Most overrated character: Xander. Don't get me started.

Character you wish had been used more: I assume this means characters who appeared only a few times. If that's the intent, Ethan Rayne. If it means anyone we'd like to see more, then Dru.


[> [> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Dead (and too lazy to do the whole thing) Soul, 23:23:33 08/13/03 Wed

Best Monster of the Week: Tie between The Gentlemen and Sweet. I'm surprised Sunday hasn't gotten more votes.

Well, you know that I voted for her, but Sweet is a close second.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Spike/Dru/Willow. Great material for Dead Soul here.

Ack! The pressure! Eek! The Plot Bunnies! Maybe once I've written the Spike/Sunday story set during Season Two that I promised a friend for her birthday (which was last Friday - bad me!)

But worst MotW? Gotta go with the Bezoar. Blech.


[> [> [> the Bezoar (slightly OT) -- Anneth, 11:08:22 08/14/03 Thu

But worst MotW? Gotta go with the Bezoar. Blech.

I'm totally with you there, dead... I seriously considered the Bezoar as my vote for worst MotW. Which lead to some serious consideration of the Bezoar's life-cycle. To wit;

1) The Queen Bezoar initially only produces soldier bezoars, or soldier/drone bezoars. The soldiers go forth and amass an army of slaves.

2) Once the slaves are produced, the Queen Bezoar begins producing both female and male bezoar babies, which the slaves tend to.

3) The eggs are then transported to local supermarkets, where unsuspecting families buy egg cartons (containing at least one female and one male bezoar egg) and carry them off to the far reaches of Sunnydale, where the bezoars hatch, bury themselves in some lovely basements, and begin the cycle anew. Meanwhile, a few female bezoar eggs have been left near the original Queen; the females hatch and, upon reaching maturity, stage a coup and oust the old Queen. They then fight amongst themselves until only one remains, who is then fertilized, becomes icky and bloated, and starts producing eggs of her own.

Mmm, yes. So. Bezoars. Ick.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Haddock, 13:46:46 08/14/03 Thu

Here we go....I fancy joining in.....

Favourite Scooby - I think all of the 'gang of four' are extraordinarily well drawn characters....the one I feel most inherently sympathetic towards ? probably Giles.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor, an at times hysterical caricature of the hypocritical politician who preaches one thing and practices another. And his relationship with Faith gave him a depth which certainly Glory and Adam lacked, and which I didn't really see in Angelus or the Master either

Best Little Bad: Faith. Well who else ?

Worst Little Bad: I felt Professor Walsh was fundamentally implausible as a character - something didn't quite ring true about her posthumous unmasking as 'evil plan to take over the world woman' - I suspect the writers were covering over some fast appearing holes in their season-arc after Lindsay Crouse and Seth Green both pulled out

Best Monster of the Week: Sunday. The female Spike - should have been given a bit longer in the Buffyverse

Worst Monster of the week: Oh probably lots - off the top of my head I cared little for Rj in 'him' or quite a number of the season 2 monsters

Best Good/Ambiguous Supporting Character: Oz - Seth Green was a much under-rated comic genius

Worst Good/Ambiguous supporting character: Not quite sure - I never cared much for Cordelia, but she wasn't entirely one-dimensional

Favourite 'ship (canonical) Willow/Tara - it would have been easy for this to descent into political point-making, but instead we got a wonderfully done relationship story

Most underrated character: Riley - a good deal more depth than most people seemed willing to acknowledge. Shame they wrote him out of the series in the way they did.

Most overrated character: Angel. I only really got into Buffy in season 3, when he'd been 'backgrounded' a little.

Character you wish they'd used more: Sunday. See above


[> [> Ah, a fish after my own heart -- Dead Soul, 18:27:02 08/14/03 Thu



[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Valheru (I don't do impressions!), 00:41:29 08/15/03 Fri

Favourite Scooby: Xander. Although I wasn't too happy with how ME used him in S5-7, he impressed me so much in the first four seasons that it didn't matter. Though really, I would pick all of the Core Four if I could.

Best Big Bad: Tie between Angelus and Mayor Wilkins. As a character, the Mayor was so much more fun and interesting, but Angelus had such an enormous impact.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. How ME turned one of the best MotWs into the worst Big Bad is beyond me. I'd just as soon had Gachnar be the S7 Big Bad if that's all ME could get out of it.

Best Little Bad: Tie between Faith and Spike'n'Dru. It's really hard to compare between the S2 and S3 Little Big Bads because they serve such different functions so well. Spike'n'Dru were horror villains, while Faith was an action/adventure adversary. Both blew me away.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Caleb. I would rather they had put George Hertzberg back in the Adam suit if all they wanted was some maniacal punching bag. Or cross the Beast over from AtS. Or even better, steal Abraham Benrubi from ER for another episode and let him go to town with Olaf. At least those characters had some entertaining distinction. And try as Fillion did, but not even Brando could have salvaged this one.

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen. I'd say more, but I find can't say a word...

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Just to be original, I'm picking the Quellor demon from Listening to Fear. Demons from outer space? But I will say that it was a nice design (certainly better than most of the rubber suits Almost Human built (though the Beast and the Mantis demon on AtS were inspired)).

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Tie between Jonathan and JONATHAN! Either as regular joe or Superstar, that Levinson kid was wonderful. Perhaps the best supporting character I've ever seen created on TV.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood. Can anyone explain to me what his purpose was? He would have been better suited as a contrast to Snyder, a sort of S1-2 Joyce-type character.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike and Drusilla. Just saw Crush again the other night--that scene, when they first enter the Bronze together? I think my television popped a fuse or something. I'll say this, though: the next time I see a Buffy/Angel or Oz/Willow scene, my vote here will change.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Amy the Rat/Miss Kitty Fantastico. The best lesbian-cat/rat couple ever conceived. Err, maybe not. Howzabout...Willow/Spike. Those scenes in Lover's Walk and The Initiative are marvellous.

Most underrated character: Riley Finn. And I'll just leave it at that.

Most overrated character: Tara the Lesbian. For a character who was hardly ever seen, she sure gets a lot of attention. And poor little Tara Maclay is always around, yet no one ever seems to notice her. Sorry, but I thought Tara was a much better character than she was a stereotype.

Character you wish had been used more: There are so many! My gut screams, "The Gentlemen!" yet I intellectually agree with Joss that they work best in a singular appearance. Same with Sweet. I would have liked more of Graham and less of Forrest in S4. S3 Wesley (though not much more of him). Amy and Larry. The show could always use more Oz and Jonathan. But if I had to pick ONE, with my life on the line, I'd pick TWO (ha!): Drusilla and VampWillow. Sexy, nutty vampires are my THING, yo! That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Gomez, 02:40:56 08/15/03 Fri

Favourite Scooby: Ripper. Giles with a dark side was always cool.

Best Big Bad: I liked the Mayor, but Angelus ripped the Scoobies apart. Devestated Buffy, killed Miss Calender and proceeded to torment everyone (and tortured Giles). But he sure took his time. He would've been truly evil if he just threw a molotov cocktail into Buffy's home and waited for the mayhem to ensue.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. She should've chosen the Cleveland Hellmouth to start her attack (or if there was one in China, that'd be better). Plus, wouldn't you want to keep an eye and an ear on the Scoobies for as much as possible? How did she not see the final attack coming? And since she was there when Angel gave Buffy the amulet, how did she not know what it was? She also took too long. Although, the gang weren't able to kill the First Evil, so there's a plus. And she was able to take out the Council and plenty of innocent girls.

Best Little Bad: Faith. For all the reasons that everyone else mentioned.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Annointed One. Did he actually accomplish anything?

Best Monster of the Week: VampWillow. Evil was never so sexy. But she wasn't very effective. In that case, the Band Candy was the best. Everyone was affected by it, and it actually worked just as it was supposed to. It was also fun.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The police woman assassin in season two. Who pulls a gun on someone when they're looking at you? All she had to do was have Buffy turn around, and then shoot.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Anya, until she got her powers back. She said what she wanted to say and didn't care what anyone else (except Xander) thought of her. I like the screwed up characters.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: I hated Tara. Until Once More With Feeling, I just couldn't wait for her to die. And then she said herself she was leaving! And then they killed her, which wasn't much of a loss.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Oz and Willow. They were so cute. And it was their break up that got me hooked on Buffy.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): VampWillow and Faith. Evil and sexy. And maybe I read too much of the online cartoon....

Most underrated character: Any time that we saw suave or confident Xander. Normal Xander was just forgotten about, but remember when he was a Hyena or breaking into the military barracks? We needed more of that Xander.

Most overrated character: Spike, from season 5 onwards. Way more whiny and mopey than Dawn. And Buffy was far too forgiving. Xander or Giles should've staked him years ago (wasn't Giles supposed to be aware of the greater good?). If they had, more screen time for everyone else!

Character you wish had been used more: All of the minor characters should've been mentioned more (they did a little in S7, especially the 'kick his ass' comment and the truth finally coming out). The First Evil should've come back as Larry. Or, if she wanted to be really effective and shocking, Oz.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2002 -- MsGiles, 11:47:45 08/17/03 Sun

Hmmm...maybe just retreading the ground here, but can't resist

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. Well of course. But then in a sense all of them are Buffy :)

Best Big Bad: I go for Ben/Glory here. Glory knew what she was doing when she took Tara's mind. When she went to kill Dawn, she was BenandGlory, the ultimate toxic combination of wellmeaning vagueness and murderous self-interest. She had weaknesses as a big bad, and the minions were just a shade too comical .. but I can't resist a bit of comedy in a Bad, which is why I can't love/hate the Master or Adam so much. The Mayor was good, though.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): I'll have to pass, because I haven't *seen* the 1st Evil yet. Was the Judge a Big Bad or a little one? Whatever, he was pretty useless when it came to it. His first big failure imho was not to winnow Spike & Dru when he had the chance - any hesitation on a BBs part to do their special evil, for whatever reason, spells failure.

Best Little Bad: Ah. I think Drusilla, she seemed such a fine mix of the sadistic and the wounded. Snyder second, just for the shot with the glowing ears in The Puppet Show.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Ummm. The Three, probably. They didn't even work out they were bads for several weeks, and then one of them was goodish and another had his head XBoxed. Warren on his own, though bad, couldn't be worst at anything.

Best Monster of the Week: Now I liked the Bezoar. No, just kidding. The Gentlemen it has to be, with those amazing crouching people in unbuttoned straightjackets that went before, spreading the message of madness and weirdness. Where did they come from?

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): penis-head was great! in a bad way. LOL! But worst, I'd go for the thing that was laying the eggs in AYW. It just stood there while they kicked it .. and then stood there while they kicked it some more. And yet I thought the idea had some possible interesting subtexts (female demon .. eggs .. family .. children .. Riley and Sam .. Buffy and Spike .. vampires infertile .. Anya and Xander .. etc etc)

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: oh, can I have Clem, even if he does eat kittens? Liked Harmony as well

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Rack. Sorry, he was good, he was just too much. He was out of pantomime, everyone hissed when he came on. I did like the decor in his evil invisible portacabin though.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): afraid it's Spike/Buffy. Neither of them individually came out of S6 looking shiny, and it was annoying the way they kept having epiphanies and then forgetting it all next ep, but that infuriating relationship dug up so much stuff for me, rang so many bells, I have to rate it top. In a painful way.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical):Anya/Giles, definitely. Should have been.

Most underrated character: Sam. Give the girl a break! She did her best with a pretty poor set of cards. Too tall, no jokes, no problems, no life.

Most overrated character: Spike's bod. Should have stayed dressed and kept with the snarks.

Character you wish had been used more: Spike's bod No, I mean .. I think I'll go with Mr Trick. A bit of cleverness in a Bad goes a long way, and he could have played morally ambiguous no trouble.


[> [> Uhm is it just me or did a bunch of poster's Impressions get eaten by Voynak? -- s'kat (wondering what happened to Sophist's thru Haddock's), 15:52:17 08/17/03 Sun



[> [> [> Oops. Never mind - Voynak just reorganized them is all. -- s'kat (I'm losing it, ignore me), 15:53:54 08/17/03 Sun



[> [> [> [> weird that, I thought my post hadn't posted -- MsGiles, 04:26:18 08/18/03 Mon



[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- dub ;o), 17:43:49 08/15/03 Fri

Favourite Scooby: Giles

Best Big Bad: Mayor Wilkins

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam

Best Little Bad: Sweet (okay, only one ep, but still...)

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Maggie Walsh

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): That tiny, little fear demon. Grathnar? Graknar? You know the one.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Riley

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Dru from a story point-of-view; Spike/Buffy from a heat point-of-view.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Spike/Faith

Most underrated character: Dawn

Most overrated character: Tara

Character you wish had been used more: It's a tie! Oz and Holden Webster.

;o)


[> Since everyone else is playing...Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Random, 18:23:14 08/15/03 Fri

Favourite Scooby: Daphne...I mean, Buffy. Of course...who else?!? Or maybe Xander...I love the Xand-man. Willow? My little redheaded lesbian witch darling. No, wait: Giles. Ripper and zipper, Giles ruled. Ah, who am I kidding...I loved them all

Best Big Bad: Mayor Richard Wilkins the Third. The man had class. He had charm. He had skulls and scotch in his closet. No-one comes close to the Mayor.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Something went terribly wrong with this Big Bad. As KdS said -- what might have been.

Best Little Bad: Spike, Season 2. He blew onto the scene and made all other Little Bads look like pikers. This is what a Little Bad should be. Evil and full of real personality, he captivated everyone and perhaps saved the show. His attitude, his poisonous and entrancing love affair with Drusilla, his sense of flair...no other Little Bad can touch this Littlest of Big Bads.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Spike, Season 6. How mighty are the fallen. From the bad-ass who nearly took down the Slayer and did take down the Big Bad Angelus with a hunka metal, we reach the nadir of a sad little man who takes pleasure in kicking the Slayer when she was already down. Abusing her (I still can't re-watch "Smashed" -- the part where he verbally degrades her and still gets her to screw him makes me slightly nauseous) and generally taking advantage of her low emotional state, he is but a pale reflection of the vampire who smashed down the Sunnydale sign in "School Hard." And let's not even get into the whole "demon eggs" thing. That was just sad.

Best Monster of the Week: Toss-up between Sweet and the Gentlemen...but Hyena-Xander and VampWillow snatch the prize from both of these.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): I still can't abide that Queller Demon. Just...tacky.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Gotta go with Andrew. From his inauspicious, even annoying, beginnings, he achieved something worth watching every week

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Amy Madison. She just bored me by the end.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Buffybot. It was twisted and off-putting, but it was nevertheless funny. Even charming in its way. And the chemistry between those two was nothing short of amazing. The Buffybot literally seemed captivated by the Big Bad Spike. Second place: Clemdrew. Hey, don't look at me like that! I consider it canon.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Amyrat/Buffyrat...the slash that should have happened.

Most underrated character: KdS said it best -- "Riley. Hated for having a heartbeat."

Most overrated character: Ummm...Kendra. Loved her at the time, have since grown real bored with her in re-watchings. Plus, Amy.

Character you wish had been used more: Jonathan/Larry. They deserved much more screentime. We could easily have done without the potentials in Jonathan's favor. But, as far as I'm concerned, the truth of the matter is that Xander, Giles, and Willow, in that order, were robbed of rightful screentime by the endless sagas of Spuffy and the Potentials. That was the true tragedy of Season 7.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- LittleBit, 19:52:35 08/15/03 Fri

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. Favorite non-core Scooby: Anya.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor. He even used the Hellmouth to further his own ambitions. (Not at all the same as being a cork in it).

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam, primarily because he never had the chance to really demonstrate competence.

Best Little Bad: Drusilla. She's just irresistible. Runner-up: Principal Snyder; who else could annoy the scoobies in their dreams?

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Hansel&Gretel Demon; just lame.

Best Monster of the Week: A Tie: The Gentlemen---truly frightening and Sweet---truly fascinating

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Pat/OvuMobani. Okay. I just despised her.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Faith, who at least understood the dichotomy of her choices, and Andrew, who just wanted to belong and be noticed, without working for it.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Forrest. Because frankly by the end I just didn't care.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Giles/Jenny. I'm still in mourning.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Wes/'Bit. Oh, wait...you meant all-character ship? Veruca/Angelus. Wouldn't they be just amazing?

Most underrated character: Riley. I liked him.

Most overrated character: Amy Madison.

Character you wish had been used more: Another Tie: Jonathon and Ethan; would have loved more of either of them.


[> [> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Rufus, 21:00:59 08/15/03 Fri

Hey you and Wes.....me and Wood.....both of us are happy.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 --
Earl Allison, 09:30:39 08/12/03 Tue

Love this idea! Hopefully I don't annoy anyone too much.

Favourite Scooby: Willow. I never got to the stage of hating or even actively disliking her. Buffy fell into that hole in S7 :(

Best Big Bad: The Master. Hey, he's the only one that actually managed to directly kil Buffy with his own hands. Oh, and you've got something in your eye *squish* Mayor Wilkins is a close second, since he WAS evil, and managed to do so without becoming a joke, unlike ...

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Agreed. It should be renamed the Dumbest Evil that ever Eviled an Evil. For something that could be invisible, intangible, and could instantly teleport anywhere it wished, posing as ANY dead entity it wished, it really should have read the Evil Overlord lists -- it's not like it didn't have the TIME or anything :)

Best Little Bad: Faith (S3). The all-time best morally conflicted bad guy. Agreed. I adored Faith. Great character, believable behavior, great arc.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Turok Han, but only because I think it was supposed to be scary. I know part of this is due to the actor's height, but the Turok Han LOOKED like a silly little rubber-masked thing. THIS is what a real vampire looks like? Ugh, being back Darla in the Catholic schoolgirl costume, or Angel in the mutton-chops wig. Darla was scary in a sexy way, and mutton-chops are inherently scary :)

Best Monster of the Week: Gachnar, the midget fear demon. Love him even though he's a "little show."

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Pete, the Jekyll/Hyde ripoff from "Beauty and the Beasts." Just looked goofy, and hitting your girlfriend? Not nice at all. Almost a proto-Warren in ways (but actually had depth).

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. He never gave up trying to do the right thing. Even in the midst of Warren's evil and Andrew's stupidity, he tried to help Buffy -- oh, and he seemed to get that what happened to Katrina was wrong, neither of the others did. RIP, little buddy, you died trying to do good, and I appreciate you for it. I wasnted to vote for Amy Madison, but ME torpedoed her in S6 and S7, with no real dramatic payoff.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. Faith-lite, with all the stereotypical characteristics to make her look like Faith on the surface, with none of the endearing qualities or depth (although in S7 if you weren't Spike or Buffy, you GOT no depth or time) to make her worthwhile.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Dru. Agreed. Of all the 'ships we saw, this one was probably the most interesting to watch. Especially to watch Dru mouth "boo-boo?" during Vamp Harmony's rant.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Xander. The ship waiting to set sail, sank by Buffy in "When She Was Bad," and then blasted into fragments in S3 after the events of "Lovers Walk." Looked like it might be raised from the depths after S6, only to fall into the San Andreas Fault never to be seen again with Xander's infamous "gay me up" speech :)

Most underrated character: Amy Madison. She had potential to be an interesting counter to Willow, or a non-Buffy confidant for her (since it was established that they were friends). Ah, what might have been.

Most overrated character: Spike. I signed on for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," and ME seemed to pull a bait-and-switch on me in S6 and S7. Last I checked, there were OTHER regulars on the cast that needed arcs of interest, too.

Character you wish had been used more: Vamp Harmony. Because for my money, you can't get enough of Vamp Harmony whining about undeath, collecting unicorns, and shooting Spike with crossbows :)


Take it and run.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Claudia, 09:38:26 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. Who else? [Agreed.]

Best Big Bad: Warren Meers. The Big Bad who might really kill you. [Disagree. My vote is Mayor Wilkins.]


Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Not so much for what it was, but for what it could have been. [Disagree. My vote is Angeleus. He should have followed Spike's advice and kill Buffy when he had the chance.]

Best Little Bad: Faith (S3). The all-time best morally conflicted bad guy. [Agreed.]

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Caleb. "Gee, I sure do hate women." Repeat ad ennui. [Disagree. You're kidding, right? Have you forgotten Glory's minions? Or Adam? Caleb was far from incompetent.]

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet. Just for the originality. [Agreed.]

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Penis-Head Woman. Biggest Freudian slip in TV history. [Agreed]

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew. Who we might have really have ended up as in the Buffyverse. [Disagreed. In my book, Robin Wood takes the prize.]

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood. Patronising git who couldn't even come up with a decent plan to kill Spike. [Disagree. Rupert Giles proved to be a hell of a lot more patronizing. And he didn't have as good a reason as Wood.]

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Dru. 'Cos evil people do care about each other. Just not everyone else. [Disagree. My vote goes to Buffy/Spike, who were the most complex and fascinating couple on the show - in my opinion.]

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Faith (post-Orpheus). How Willow might have actually got past her Inner Darkness issues, without an enema ex machina. [No comment.]

Most underrated character: Riley. Hated for having a heartbeat. [Agreed.]

Most overrated character: Ethan Rayne. Funny, but no way does he deserve the attention he gets in fanfic. [Disagree. Daniel "Oz" Osbourne gets my vote. What was the big deal about him?]

Character you wish had been used more: Quentin. It would have been so cool if Buffy had actually had to deal with a dick-on-the-side-of-good on a more regular basis. [Agreed. And his name is Quentin Travers.]


[> I'll play! Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- ponygirl, 10:07:07 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Giles. All the other Scoobies have completely pissed me off at one time or another, but while Giles has puzzled me, especially in s7, I've always wanted to see more of him.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor, though the snake really wasn't as cool as it could have been.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Gotta go with the First Evil. Really what was its plan? C'mon, someone, anyone?

Best Little Bad: Spike (s2). Along with Dru he turned all of our ideas of vampires and baddies upside down within half a season.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Darla, s1. She made up for it later but her first few appearances got on my nerves in the worst way.

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen. Can't get any scarier than that.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Whatever that demon was from The Replacement. Bad aim, and the idea of dividing Buffy never made much sense.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Faith. Even at her most evil there still seemed something worth saving in her.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: I'll go with Robin Wood as well. A character with a lot of potential who devolved into smugness.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Spike. No apologies!

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Xander/Faith. Always regret that there never was any follow-up to their s3 encounters.

Most underrated character: Joyce. Not so much in s5 where her illness forced her into a saintlier mode, but the confused, cranky and trying to hold it together mom who couldn't figure out her daughter.

Most overrated character: Angelus. A little goes a long way.

Character you wish had been used more: The First Slayer. Whether as a real person or as a presence within Buffy I wanted to find out more, and through her learn about Slayers and Buffy herself.


[> [> Re: I'll play! Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- heywhynot, 10:28:45 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. The person who believed that the means do matter. A lesson that is lost I am afraid in the world we currently live.

Best Big Bad: The First Evil. Had a plan, terrorized the Scoobies for an entire full length season (Glory was close in this regard). Realized the rules keeping the balance between good & evil were bogus and wanted to walk & feel. And like a being above it all, treated Buffy as something less than it. Taunting Buffy when she was done, like anything evil should.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Willow. In the end she wanted to end pain, so she was going to end the world & all she really neeeded was a hug.

Best Little Bad: Trick. Slayerfest, new school vampire.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The annointed one.

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence):

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Faith. Even at her most evil there still seemed something worth saving in her.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew. A follower. Never really evolved past that.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Angel.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical):
Most underrated character: Dawn. So she whined a little. Her mom died, she found out she was green glowing energy given form & her memories were planted, her dad was never around, she was kidnapped by a God (who terrorized her "family" to find her), her sister died so that she may live, her sister returned to life but really wanted to be dead, finds out that her sister on a certain level fantasizes of a world in which she doesn't exist, all within the span of two years. But still in season 7 moved past that into really being a great asset to the SG. Too bad her being the Key was never explored.

Most overrated character: Spike. In many respects the Fonz of the show.

Character you wish had been used more: Dawn, see above.


[> [> [> Re: I'll play! Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Dochawk, 22:23:18 08/15/03 Fri

Don't know who you are, but my answers would have been identical and I don't see that much here.


[> Clarification -- KdS, 10:09:26 08/12/03 Tue

When I talked about incompetent Big and Little Bads, and MotW, I meant badly written/ill-conceived, not that the characters were incompetent in the context of the show.

Really just a joke on the way "Worst Villain" could be read as complimentary...


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Rob, 10:21:14 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Anya. The only Scooby who has never annoyed me, even once, and always manages to either make me laugh or warm the cockles of my heart.

Best Big Bad: Glory. I felt the most tangible threat from her, precisely because she didn't care about the mortals she had to crush on her way to getting her goal.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): I would say The First, because it ended up being all talk, except I don't think that was a fault of the writing; I think that was the point of the character all along. So, therefore, I will pick The Master, not because he wasn't great, but because, relative to the other Big Bads, he was the most simplistic.

Best Little Bad: Faith. Oh yeah.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Can't answer this one...I'm still me after all!

Best Monster of the Week: Gnarl. He made my skin crawl the most, no pun intended.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The fish guys from "Go Fish," mostly because I have severe fish-phobia and they really squick me.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew!!!

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow and Tara. I have never been so swept away by any 'ship on any television show or movie as I am with W/T.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Dawn/Andrew...They're just too cute together.

Most underrated character: Riley, all the way.

Most overrated character: Ethan Rayne. Funny, but no way does he deserve the attention he gets in fanfic.

Character you wish had been used more: Xander. Poor guy went from saving the world to spending a season patching up broken windows, saying inspiring speeches, and in the end, losing an eye and the woman who may have been his one true love.


[> [> Oops! I forgot to change my "overrated character"... -- Rob, 10:39:15 08/12/03 Tue

I copied KdS' list, and changed them with my opinions. For overrated, I would say "nobody."

Rob


[> [> [> I'd expect nothing less :-P -- KdS, 12:37:11 08/12/03 Tue



[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- dmw, 10:28:41 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow

Who else?

Best Big Bad: Mayor Wilkins

Scary and funny, the Mayor not only has the most panache of any Buffy villain, but he has the best choice in his henchmen: Faith and Mr Trick.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil.

Great potential, but so little of it was used. You only have to read It to see that a shapechanging Big Bad can be terrifying.

Best Little Bad: Faith

The perfect opposite for Buffy to face in so many ways. Overall, I think she has the most satisfying arc of any character in the series.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Trio.

Who else?

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen

The creepiest Buffy monster ever, with a dark fairy tale all their own.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): n/a

There are many bad ones, but none really stand out in my mind.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan

Jonathan was a great supporting character from the beginning and even when he fell in with The Trio there was still a moral core in him despite his evil actions.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew

I thought Anya's humor was annoying and stupid until Andrew reset the scale when he came on-board in season 7. On the bright side, Anya grew into an interesting and more developed character in the first half of that season.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Tara

I love their chemistry together; both actresses clearly put a lot of effort into the small interactions that made this work from the little thumb caresses as they held hands to the more blatant cues like where Tara's staring just before they hurry out the door in OMWF. I have to agree with the Spike/Dru love too; they were great together.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): n/a

I've never read a story about a noncanonical 'ship that I thought was great. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't found one.

Most underrated character: Riley

I have to agree here. He's not my favorite character, but he wasn't as bad as he's made out to be.

Most overrated character: Spike

While he's my second favorite little bad for his actions in seasons 2-3, he never held my interest after he became a regular, and I never could quite suspend my disbelief that the Scoobies hadn't staked him yet. I think his story could've been done well like that of Scorpius in Farscape, but it wasn't.

Character you wish had been used more: Tara

Shy and unassuming at first, Tara displayed unexpected depths and a great deal of growth during her time in Buffy. I wish they would've explored that further, perhaps with some friends for her (and Anya) outside the Scooby gang like Oz and Cordelia had in high school. The time when she was separated from Willow would've been great for this as well as more interactions between her and the other Scoobies. Her scenes with Dawn and Buffy during that period are great, and I would've liked to have seen more.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Gyrus, 10:43:28 08/12/03 Tue

(Great idea, KdS!)

Favourite Scooby: Xander, the good-hearted doofus in all of us.

Best Big Bad: Adam. I know, I know, not a popular choice, but he was just so darned invincible. And his inspirational speech to Spike in "The Yoko Factor" is one of the best villain monologues ever.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Master. Killed off every minion who even got close to killing Buffy, leaving himself with only the minions who were too chicken to try. (Though, as HonorH has pointed out, the Master was far cooler in his post-S1 appearances.)

Best Little Bad: Faith. Oh, yeah.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Harmony. Like, totally.

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen. Who else?

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The demon slave-drivers from "Anne". Saying "Humans don't fight back" is pretty much like saying, "I'm a naive dunderhead who only has this job because Beelzebub is my father-in-law."

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. Did I mention that I like good-hearted doofuses?

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. When she calls herself a brat, I nod vigorously. Plus she was on the non-constructive side of almost every argument.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Xander. Doomed to angst-provoking failure, of course, but fun while it lasted.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Riley. These two had a lot more chemistry between them in the beginning than Buffy/Riley did.

Most underrated character: Got to go with KdS's choice -- Riley. (Why yes, I did recently re-watch S4 on DVD. The man's a lot more likeable the second time around.)

Most overrated character: Anya. She's good for laughs, but hard to take seriously as Xander's love interest or anything else.

Character you wish had been used more: Nancy, the white-hat who dies first in "The Wish". It would have been nice to see what she's like in the regular Buffyverse.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Anneth, 11:02:45 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. Still my girl.

Best Big Bad: Faith and the Mayor. I don't want to say Faith was just a Little Bad because of her importance to the series, as Buffy's shadow-self and Angel's protege. But Faith and the Mayor, together, were almost unstoppable. Ruthless, evil, and really beauitfully written. Their twisted father/daughter relationship was at once touching and sick, sick, sick.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Master. He was kinda lame. I mean, it was all well and good that he was trapped under Sunnydale and wanted to wreak havoc on the world, or whatever, but he just didn't strike me as very threatening.

Best Little Bad: Snyder! He made life difficult for everyone he met in a multitude of annoying little ways, which is the mark of true evil.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Darla, S1. She grew on me an awful lot after S1, but she annoys me terribly in S1, with her affected little-girl mincing about.

Best Monster of the Week: It's a toss-up between Sweet (my, wasn't he a natty dresser?) and the Gentlemen (my, weren't they freaky?)

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The fat demon-thingie in Bad Girls. Uh, why was he scary? Because he could stick uppity minions in his stinky armpit?

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: The Buffybot, my favoritest supporting character ever. Chipper in the face of adversity, concerned about others... why are you looking at me like that? Seriously, though, the Buffybot may not have had free will, but she brought out some interesting characteristics in others - The fact that Warren actually built her instead of running screaming into the hills when Spike showed up at his door, the fact that Spike had Warren program her to actually want to slay vampires and to help others (Giles, in Intervention), the fact that Willow considered fixing her, that Buffy was threatened by her, and that Dawn loved her. And, she was very pretty.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. A spoiled brat with no discernable likeable character traits till Chosen. I think the writers really, really dropped the ball with her.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Buffy. The chemistry between the two of the drew me to the show. I'm not talking about just Spuffy, but the crackling sexual tension between the two of them from S2 on.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): I don't know if this is exactly what KdS means, but I have always loved the relationship between Buffy and Giles.

Most underrated character: Dawn. Well written, well acted, and really, really interesting. Yeah, she whined a lot, but so did I at 15.

Most overrated character: Cordy on BtVS. She was essentially a two-dimensional flake till she moved to Angel. Her rare flashes of insight and depth on BtVS were, for me, totally off-set by her stereotypical popular chick antics. I feel that the writers got lazy with her and resorted to lame cliches when trying to develop her 'public' persona.

Character you wish had been used more: Xander. I think his story stalled after The Replacement, and despite a few sputters at the end of S6 never came back to life.


[> [> Synder and Buffybot -- dmw, 12:19:27 08/12/03 Tue

Best Little Bad: Snyder! He made life difficult for everyone he met in a multitude of annoying little ways, which is the mark of true evil.

I don't know if he was a little bad, but you're right about him: a true evil. Bureaucracy may not be the first evil, but it's the worst evil!

The Buffybot, my favoritest supporting character ever. Chipper in the face of adversity, concerned about others... why are you looking at me like that?

No odd looks from me. Buffybot was great; it would've been interesting to see what she grew up into given time, whether she would've developed free will and a personality like Ted.

If you want more Buffybot, there's The Buffybot Adventures, now starting its second season.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- ZachsMind, 11:08:24 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Xander. Dawn and Tara tie for a VERY close second.

Best Big Bad: Glory (ya gotta admit she was the most fun)

Worst Big Bad: Angelus (ya never want a baddie that thinks things through that much - takes all the fun out of it)

Best Little Bad: Spike (but bad in a good way cuz he never was really although he tried real hard)

Worst Little Bad: Caleb (seems like they cooked him up at the last moment, and not very well)

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen (from Hush)

Worst Monster of the Week: Buffy going insane in Normal Again (who didn't see that comin?). Buffy ties with herself for first place, from the s.4 episode Beer Bad when she went Clan of the Cave Bear on us. Buffy makes for the worst MOTW.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan Levinson, cuz he was funny, and unpredictable, and ever present, and ..did I say funny?

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: All the potential slayers tie for this. Especially the ones who got a name and a stereotype personality but not much else. Rona & Kennedy don't count cuz I actually almost liked them.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Xander/Anya. Hey. It reminds me a bit of my first marriage. I'm nostalgic, what can I say? Willow/Tara and Willow/Oz tie for second. Faith/Wood run a distant third. All of Buffy's relationships are in last place.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Well this is sorta canonical actually. Joyce and Giles. I always thought that shoulda worked out better. So they'd get married then Joyce would die and so Giles would end up Buffy's stepdad AND a widower. Which woulda been freaky eerie kewl.

Most underrated character: Jonathan Levinson. He shoulda been a Scoobie.

Most overrated character: Buffy. The show should never have been named after her. Though SMG did good at carrying the show? I always thought the character itself over-rated. I mean, she was right. She didn't deserve being the center of the universe, but she was, which gave her that inferiority/superiority complex for SEVEN YEARS! The show woulda been better if it centered around Willow.

Character you wish had been used more: Amy Madison, the rat. Would liked to have seen her deratted sooner, become more of a key player with the Scoobies, then betray the gang. THEN she'd have had more of a hand in turning Willow evil, and we woulda had two evil witches to contend with in the season six finale. That woulda baked Alaska.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- mamcu, 11:10:43 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow. I identify.

Best Big Bad: Glory. The most glorificant one. Who could compete?

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Trio. Bored now!

Best Little Bad: Spike that was (S2-4).

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Harmony. Was she even a little bad?

Best Monster of the Week: The-umm?-whatever it was in Doublemeat Palace (gee that was KdS' worst one. So define good monster?)

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The demon in Puppet Show. He clearly did need a brain.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. Good second thoughts and growth by S7.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Riley. The drippiest.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Oz. Loved her as gay, but she and Oz were meant to be. Witch and werewolf both start with W-see?

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Fred (if Willow could cross over, so can I). But has anyone every contemplated Buffy/Giles?

Most underrated character: Andrew. A really, really funny guy.

Most overrated character: Tara. Mope, mope. Sorry, I just couldn't love her-maybe too good for this show.

Character you wish had been used more: Dru. There just can't be too much Dru.


[> [> Buffy/Giles? Ummm ewww to quote Buffy (Faith, Hope and Trick) -- heywhynot, 14:19:13 08/12/03 Tue

" Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Fred (if Willow could cross over, so can I). But has anyone every contemplated Buffy/Giles?"

I have come across it online, quickly run the other way. They have that whole daughter/dad relationship in my eyes. Just not my cup of tea (or Maxwell House). Reminds me of when Faith first showed up on BtVS and commented on Giles' looks. Buffy was very weireded out. Maybe a Faith/Giles? ;)


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Diana, 11:36:36 08/12/03 Tue

Please keep in mind I am seriously sleep deprived and that I really am a bitch

Favourite Scooby: Willow. Hottest by far. Got to really explore her dark side rather than just screw it.

Best Big Bad: ANGEL!!!!!! Need you even ask.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Initiative/Adam/Maggie/whatever. Only thing that was good about the Initiative was Riley. Mmmmm Riley. And Graham. Mmmm Graham. Graham and Riley. Mmmmmmmmmmmm. Don't ask, don't tell. But they again don't tell them, show them.

Best Little Bad: Drusilla. We need lots more Dru. Just the dialogue alone was amazing. Add in that amazing fashion sense and way she carried herself. Gives me shivers.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): That would be, ummm, Spike :-) I don't think there is anything big about him, other than ego.

Best Monster of the Week: Dracula. How they took the Ultimate Vampire and put him in the Buffyverse was wonderful. GO MARTI!!!!!!

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Moloch.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Holtz (oops wrong show, right?) Kendra. I liked her and as usual GO MARTI!!!!

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Amy.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): That's a hard one, NOT. BUFFY AND ANGEL 4eva [drawing heart in the air]

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Marti (can I do that?)

Most underrated character: Kendra.

Most overrated character: Spike. Plot device, not a character :-)

Character you wish had been used more: Kendra. I answered her twice already. That should be a no brainer.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- celticross, 12:46:04 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow...for the first 3 and a half seasons, she was me. Then there was Tara, and since I've never been in love with another woman, we sort of diverged. But she's always got that favorite place in my heart.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor. He'd lecture you on hygiene and swearing, and wanted to become a demon. And he did, too.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Too bad Buffy waited until Chosen to figured out the FE really was the First Taunter. Plan? Anyone?

Best Little Bad: Faith. She was absolutely heart-wrenching in Season 3, because you always felt that if someone could just find the words, Faith's self-destructive streak could be reined in with ease. Too bad the Mayor was the one who found those words.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): "Caleb. "Gee, I sure do hate women." Repeat ad ennui." Stealing from KdS here, because that Caleb got on my last nerve for precisely the reasons quoted above. Caleb was nothing but a blank slate of the purest, most overt misogyny, the better to assert "girl power" over. Blech.

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentleman. They make with the chill giving.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Dracula. Not because it wasn't cool to throw him into the Buffyverse mix, but I was hoping for creepy, and got mostly campy. Just my opinion, though.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. A sideline character who grew and matured almost without us noticing. And a sad, sad end that still makes me very upset. RIP Jonathan.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. In my fantasy Buffy-world, Willow spent Season 7 getting her emotional life in order and Kennedy's sledgehammer subtle passes were rebuffed. I wish.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Oz. There was something so pure and touching about their relationship. I hated to see it end, which is part of why it took me so long to warm up to Tara.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Anya/Giles. I only loved Anya after she and Xander broke up, and EC and ASH had *far* more chemistry.

Most underrated character: Jonathan again. All those seasons of quiet character development, done away with.

Most overrated character: Buffy herself. Unpoular opinion, I know, but her self-involvement (however justified) never failed to grate.

Character you wish had been used more: Agreeing with KdS again and going with Quentin Travers. Actually, the whole Watcher's Council. I really wish more had been done with them.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Kate, 13:23:48 08/12/03 Tue

Great idea Kds!! Have loved reading everyone's so far, even those I disagreed with. :)


Favourite Scooby: Buffy - I'll always love my girl.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor - I love that I can still laugh and be freaked out by him no matter how many times I've watched S3. Plus, as someone already mentioned, he had the best sidekicks - Trick and Faith.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Ditto on the sentiments that The FE had so much potential, but it all seemed to flounder mid-S7 on.

Best Little Bad: While I absolutely agree on Faith, I think she's actually too big of a 'Bad' to go here. I'd actually have to say Doublemeat Palace. In some ways, that place wore Buffy down more than any big bad. It was definitely its own evil entity.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Quellar demon. With all their mythology why did they have to turn to outer space?

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen - was freaked out for weeks after watching the ep the first time around.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Ditto'ing Balthazar. He was just gross, not scary.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Yup, Jonathan. I loved all of the episodes he was featured in and he was the most interesting of the trio during S6 because he wavered between following Warren's little boy act and wanting to act as the adult he should be. (I did start loving Andrew in S7 though.)

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood - big set-up, little payoff (sort of the problem with S7 all around). The stuff with him being Nikki's son, wanting revenge against Spike, but finding someone different from the creature who killed his mother was all great stuff, but there were so many questions about him, esp from the beginning of the season, left unanswered. Plus, I really kept expecting him to turn evil and was a bit disappointed that he didn't.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Spike - from S2 onward. They are simply so fascinating together; the chemistry is just unbelievable. Right behind them is Willow/Tara though because they were so beautiful and real as a couple.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Yes to whoever said Riley/Willow!!! That's one of those "what if" scenarios. Second to that would be Faith/Buffy - for both the sexual and non-sexual aspects of their connection. ;)

Most underrated character: Dawn - yes, the whining could drive one insane at times, but she had such heart and really made a place for herself by S7 that I wish could have been explored more.

Most overrated character: No one. Love 'em all.

Character you wish had been used more: Quentin Travers/Watcher's Council/The First Slayer - I would have loved to have seen more interaction with these aspects of Buffy (and Faith's) calling.


[> Thanks for not asking for least favourite scooby, it would have been impossible -- btvsk8, 13:50:30 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Buffy. I like Willow more, but the complexity that Buffy has due to being the title character means I go for her. It is after all All. About. Buffy. Its her journey we've watched for 7 years.

Best Big Bad: Controversial but I'll go for the First Evil. I agree it could have been done better, but even as it was it was great. Every big bad is really all about personal demons and the first actually becomes your worst fear- creepy.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam/The initiative. From what I've heard this was kind of forced on the writers due to decisions made by actors but boy, can you tell. Adam was dull, he had about as much charisma as a table lamp.

Best Little Bad: Faith. No. Contest

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Turok Han. The concentration on what is essentially a vampire without a personality was the reason for the mid-season crappiness in season seven. But the annoying one deserves a mention too.

Best Monster of the Week: Not a monster as such, but Ethan Rayne.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence: Frat party snake thing in season 2.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Riley. Yuck.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Spike. The chemistry, the darkness, the hopelessness. It had me gripped anyway ;)

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Anya/Giles in season seven. Why not apart from the fact it would break Xander's heart.

Most underrated character: Dawn. I personally wish Dawn the Vampire Slayer had been given a chance by the fans.

Most overrated character: Jonathan. Ok, yes I love him and was sooooooo sad when he died. But... For most of the series he was a joke- "Oh look, its Jonathan again!" Which I loved, but he is overrated as he is not very developed IMHO

Character you wish had been used more: Xander. When he was used he was great (THE ZEPPO!) why didn't the writers see it. I think perhaps they ran out of ideas for Mr Everyman. I can see why- the stories aren't going to come so easily as those for the Vamp with soul or lesbian witch, but if only............


[> [> Xander -- Yellow Bear, 14:20:40 08/12/03 Tue

In one of her Succubus Club interviews, Jane Espenson addresses the issue of the underuse of Xander directly. Every year, the writers would try to come up with storylines for Xander but found it very difficult to come up with any long term plots without giving him powers of some sort which ME feels would destroy what makes the character so special.


[> [> [> Re: Xander -- btvsk8, 15:59:58 08/13/03 Wed

Oh totally agree with their decision to keep him non-powery. But he could have had more development. E.g. Adopts a three legged camel called bill, or drops a hammer on his toe while doing construction work. Ok now thats why I'm not a writer. But normal people can have stories too...


[> [> [> [> Three "Ordinary Guy" Xander Mini-Arcs for the latter portion of S7 -- cjl, 08:27:14 08/14/03 Thu

The first nine eps of S7 are fine. Afterwards:

1. FOLLOW THE LEADER - During the reversal spell in "Get It Done," Xander, Dawn, Anya, and Andrew are accidentally pulled into the backwash and wind up stranded in a desolate, hellish landscape. While Willow, Giles and the newly-recovered Buffy frantically try to get them back, Xander is forced to rely on his own survival instincts, without Buffy, Willow or Giles to back him up. The ordeal forges an even tighter bond with Dawn, a new respect for Andrew and a renewed love for Anya. The foursome could stumble onto the Turok-Han birthing cavern and then come back and tell Buffy the newer ubervamps are still weak and waiting to be taken down. (Three episode mini-arc.)

2. TRAITOR'S GATE - After suffering through five episodes of failed assaults against the First and its lackeys--some with deadly consequences--Buffy and Giles deduce there's a traitor in their midst. To their astonishment, they discover it's Xander. Upon confrontation, Xander is defensive and cryptic, as if (on some level) he's not entire certain why he's sabotaged the Scoobies' efforts. Buffy is majorly pissed off, but Willow, Anya and Dawn refuse to believe Xander would do anything to hurt his friends. They're right. Turns out Xander has been subliminally controlled by the Guardian, using Xander to steer Buffy towards the scythe.

3. MY ROMANCE - If nothing else, a full, deeply romantic Xander/Anya reconciliation, with Xander fully explaining his fears to Anya, Anya absolutely furious with him for not explaining all this earlier--but reconciling with him anyway. Xander finally realizes he's not his father and Anya realizes she loves him and humanity. ANYA proposes. They get married, a small, quiet ceremony, knowing full well they may not survive the final battle to enjoy their marriage. Anya dies in "Chosen," and everybody is terribly, terribly upset.


[> [> [> [> [> Interesting ideas. I like. -- dmw, 18:51:14 08/15/03 Fri



[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:11:31 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Tie between Buffy, Dawn, Spike, Xander, and Willow. Decisive, aren't I?

Best Big Bad: Tie between Angelus and the Mayor. One's got the creepiest and most delightfully sadistic personality imaginable, the other's got schizo shifts between family man and sociopathic demon worshipper. What's not to like?

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Dark Willow. Frankly? Regular Willow was far more charismatic and had the potential to be far more creepy than her evil counterpart.

Best Little Bad: Spike, the evil serial killer you only let yourself be in your imagination.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Mr. Trick, closely followed by the Annointed One. The AO was pretty much a non-entity, while Trick was just too annoying in his attempts to be modern and "hip".

Best Monster of the Week: Gnarl, aka Creepzilla.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): I dunno. The rather lame ones all seem to blend together in my head.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew. By far the funniest character the show ever created.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Forrest. Just don't like him. Case closed.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Umm . . . Xander/Cordelia, maybe? I guess I'm not much of a shipper.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Xander/Willow, Xander/Buffy, Spike/Dawn, Dawn/Andrew, etc. For me, friendships on shows always seem a lot more interesting than relationships. With friendships, you can see why they're friends, it's all in how they interact. But, with relationships, it's like they're suddenly in love but no one really knows WHY they're in love.

Most underrated character: Nancy. Her brief time in "Beneath You" really endeared her to me. You know what? Put her and Xander in my favorite ship slot.

Most overrated character: Tara and Jonathan. No question. Tara was just never really developed more than they felt they absolutely had to. As for Jonathan . . . what was the point of that guy again? Of course, maybe you have to enjoy "Superstar" in order to like the character. In which case, I've got no chance of enjoying him.

Character you wish had been used more: the First Evil. It was dead creepy whenever it was on screen. It just needed to be on screen more.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- cjl, 14:34:15 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow. She only lost me in S7--but then, there wasn't much to any of the Core Four in S7.

Best Big Bad(s): The Fanged Four, in whatever variation suits your taste. (Mine is Angelus/Spike/Dru from S2.)

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Should have been the greatest one of them all, but turned out to be nothing but talk. (Runner-up: Adam.)

Best Little Bad: Faith (S3).

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Caleb. "'Gee, I sure do hate women.' Repeat ad ennui." Dead on, KdS. (Runner-up: The Turok-Han. Went from pure terror to joke in less than 12 episodes.)

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet. 'Cause Hinton Battle is just cool. (Runners-up: Holden Webster and Sunday.)

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): So much to choose from here--the sex-absorbing poltergeists in WTWTA? The penis lady in DMP? They're all bad (as in awful), but I have to go with the tandem of Miss French and Mr. Claw in Teacher's Pet.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. Everygeek, and the true audience representative in the series.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. W/K was the least convincing pairing in Buffy history.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Giles/Jenny. I know it's my favorite, because Passion still hurts. (Runner up: Spike/Dru. Accept no substitutes.)

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Giles/Joyce. ME didn't go there because of Giles' reluctance to step into the father role and the potential embarrassing situations. Exactly the reasons they SHOULD have gone there.

Most underrated character: Joyce. Kristine Sutherland owned almost every scene she was in during S2 and S3. And her dream seduction of Xander in Restless? HOT.

Most overrated character: Andrew. (Not by the fans--by ME.)

Character you wish had been used more: Xander. The writers lost him after "The Replacement," claiming they had no idea where to take the character. Un-freaking-believable, when you consider 99% of the posters on this board could have easily outlined a credible and dramatic S7 arc for the Xan-Man.


[> [> And her dream seduction of Xander in Restless? -- sdev, 15:41:57 08/12/03 Tue

Wasn't that Xander's dream seduction?- even hotter.


[> [> [> Who knows what kind of yummy fantasies went through Joyce's head? -- cjl, 16:57:55 08/12/03 Tue

Most of them probably involved Giles, a stevedore's costume, and the Queen ELizabeth II, with G/J throwing Hank overboard somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic...


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- s'kat, 14:35:00 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow

Best Big Bad: The Mayor (Perhaps the most ambiguous of all the big bads, he was also the one who had the best build up, they were building up to the Mayor since S2 School Hard.) (Angelus in S2 comes in close second.)

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The First Evil. Not so much for what it was, but for what it could have been. (Completely agree with KdS on this one.)

Best Little Bad: Faith (S3). The all-time best morally conflicted bad guy. (Yep completely agree as well, although I thought Spike in S2 comes in a close second)

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Caleb. "Gee, I sure do hate women." Repeat ad ennui.
(Completely and utterly agree with Kds here.)

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet. Just for the originality.
(yep, completely agree)

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Penis-Head Woman. Biggest Freudian slip in TV history.
(yep, also completely agree with the rich boys clubs in
Help and Reptile boy coming in close second.)

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Amy (Johnathan a real close second. Sorry, Johnanthan is my alter ego or Willow, I'd never have been Andrew. ;-)).

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood.
(Yep, no surprise there. Patronizing git is right but fantastic actor, hoping his role on next year's 24 is better.)

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Spike/Dru. 'Cos evil people do care about each other. Also these two actors heated up the screen whenever they appeared together, one of the very few on-screen couplings that actually looked real not like two actors pretending to mush face but avoiding it at the same time. Lightening in a bottle. (Giles/Jenny come in a real close second.)

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Xander (That counts, they never really put them together...I'd say Giles/Joyce a close second. With Spike/Angel in third ;-))

Most underrated character: Riley. (Especially in Season 5 with the vamp trulls...they wrote him out just as he got really interesting.)

Most overrated character: Andrew. Funny, but no way does he deserve the attention he gets especially from the writers.

Character you wish had been used more: Giles. He seemed so under-used in S7, I still wish they'd gone with Giles as a conflicted little bad instead of Caleb. (although I agree with KdS that Quentin would have been kick-ass, that was a great character and as played by Harris Yulin - well the missed possibilities.)


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- pellenaka, 15:25:22 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Xander. Just because he's Xander.

Best Big Bad: Warren Meers. The Big Bad who might really kill you. [I concur.]

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Angelus. He's bores me. And little did he do.

Best Little Bad: Spike&Dru (S2).

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Annoying One. Thanks Spike!

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet. Just for the originality. Yup. Him or April.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): RJ, Him.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Andrew. Who we might have really have ended up as in the Buffyverse. [I totally agree]

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Robin Wood. Patronising git who couldn't even come up with a decent plan to kill Spike. [You've got it.]

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Xander/Andrew.

Most underrated character: Jonathan. I wanted more, damnit!


[> I must play too! -- Rook, 15:45:38 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Xander. The humanity at the heart of the show. None of us can ever be Willow or Buffy, peobably not even Giles...and are probably closer to being Andrew or Jonathan, but Xander is the guy we can all strive to be in real life.

Best Big Bad: The Mayor. He's like Satan in a Mike Brady suit, and there's nothing unhealthy about that!

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam. What was he going to do with a Demon army anyhow?

Best Little Bad: Faith.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): S4 Spike. The one part of Adam's plan that made some kind of remote sense, and Spike couldn't pull it off.

Best Monster of the Week: Sweet.

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): Reptile Boy. One of their thinner metaphors...though the similar Penis-head lady is close.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan. Poor, put upon, confused Jonathan, who finally saw the light...and got a typical Buffyverse reward for it.

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy. Because no one likes a spoiled brat.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Dawn. Ya, maybe not what you meant by 'ship, but Dawn is Buffy's true love. So there.

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Andrew/Dawn. Aww, come on, they're cute together!

Most underrated character: Dawn. Always liked Dawn, even through the whiny S6 days.

Most overrated character: Whistler. Why the Hell do people like this guy so much?

Character you wish had been used more: Vi. If Vi had been the "Chosen" Vi from the start, S7 would have at least been more fun, plot holes or not.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Alison, 15:59:12 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: I have to pick? In the early years, I wouldn't have been able to choose between one of core four, in the later years I wouldn't have been able to choose between the outsider Scoobs. Lets just say I love them all with the same unabashed enthusiam. I don't understand how anyone could ever hate a single one of them.

Best Big Bad: Angelus, with Warren as a close second. Sick and twisted as they both were, I felt for them.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam. Nothing new to say here...the guy was boring.

Best Little Bad: Faith- tragic and interesting

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The anointed one- though I almost want to forgive him, just because it was so much fun to watch him die. ;)

Best Monster of the Week: Hyena Xander

Worst Monster of the Week (in the sense of incompetence): The Go Fish monsters

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Faith (S7 and early S3)

Worst good/ambiguous supporting character: Kennedy

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Buffy/Spike, Buffy/Angel and Willow/Tara

Favourite 'ship (uncanonical): Willow/Riley, Willow/Anya, Anya/Giles, Angel/Spike

Most underrated character: Riley. I'm a reformed Riley hater..what can I say, the guy grows on you.

Character you wish had been used more: Larry. I get so excited when I see the Sara Lee and Best Buy adds the actor who plays him is in- I like to think of it as a special heaven where Larry can eat Sara Lee and buy big screen TVs.


[> [> Couple things to add... -- Alison, 16:03:22 08/12/03 Tue

Dawndrew. I can't believe I forgot!

And Xander was far more underused than Larry, especially in S7. I rewatch earlier seasons and always think "Wow. Xander. On screen, with lines, and an arc and stuff." Xander deserved far better than to have his screen time eaten up by the SITs and Andrew.


[> Re: Character Impressions - 1997-2003 -- Pathfinder, 16:18:32 08/12/03 Tue

Favourite Scooby: Willow. Yeah, it's Buffy's show, but sometimes it can be a little hard to relate to the stoic hero gig. (Except for Oz, who wore his stoicism so well, kinda like a Velvet Underground T-Shirt...)

Willow always seemed like the emotional heart of the Scoobies to me. And she went through so many transitions, from the babbling nerd in the brown jumper to Buffy's big gun to the wicked black magic big bad who nearly ended the world and finally the white witch who helped realize Potentials around the world.

Best Big Bad: Mayor Wilkins. Was sorry they couldn't figure out a way to bring Harry Groener back for the musical. With his background in musical theatre, some sort of return engagement for Mayor Wilkins could've been great. After all, being dead in the JossVerse is really just another plot twist.

Worst Big Bad (in the sense of incompetence): Adam. Perhaps ME should of left Frankenstein to Ms. Shelley. Could've been a lot more interesting if Lindsay Crouse's Maggie Walsh had stuck around . She was scary.

Best Little Bad: Faith. Buffy's perfect tormented shadow self. Really glad they allowed her to redeem herself.

Worst Little Bad (in the sense of incompetence): The Trio. I suppose the idea of the all too human little bads worked on paper. But they truly annoyed the heck out of me in practice, and not in an entertaining way.

Best Monster of the Week: The Gentlemen. Much like that little girl from "The Ring", an image that's burned on my brain. But then, as I suppose Joss would say, poor posture and old people are always so disturbing.

Best good/ambiguous supporting character: Jonathan.
While I really couldn't get into the trio overall, I did enjoy Jonathan's conflict. But he'd probably get my vote based on "SuperStar" alone. And I loved his final speech about how much he missed everyone. Sniff-sniff.

Favourite 'ship (canonical): Willow/Tara
At least up until Willow's walk on the dark side in season six, perhaps the healthiest relationship the BuffyVerse ever saw. Yet managed to be interesting at the same time.

Favorite 'ship (uncanonical): Giles/Joyce. Does this really count since they did technically get together. "What's a stevadore?" Always thought Giles and Jenny were perfect, but Giles and Joyce could've been interesting in their own right. Plenty of potential for conflict, especially since I never thought Joyce forgave Rupert entirely for keeping her in the dark for so long.

Most underrated character: Riley. Never understood the fan hatred.

Most overrated character: Spike. The character just stopped working for me after season 5, and the writers just continued to devote more and more screen time to him. Actually, I have a theory that part of my lack of interest in this character over the last two seasons was a result of just how isolated he became. With a couple of notable exceptions, Spike didn't get to interact with any of the main characters aside from Buffy in the last couple of seasons. Since I always thought Marsters' real strength was playing off other actors (he used to be great in scenes with ASH and AH, and of course JL), this was a real shame. Never could get into the whole Spike backstory that the writers seemed so intent on giving us. By the end, I knew more about Spike's family history than I did about Willow's or Giles', and that just didn't seem right. Plus, to quote early Spike, "I just got so *bored*."

Character you wish had been used more: Tara

Still would love to hear exactly how JW planned to bring her back in season 7. Ah, well.


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