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more nightmares -- MsGiles, 09:30:47 08/14/03 Thu

Didn't have time to reply to Q before, but here are some more thoughts

I had a nightmare last night; I was being chased by a postcode. Then it turned into metal velociraptors, quite small ones like origami, which my sister resourcefully cut up with nail scissors. Must lay off the coffee.

The scoobies nightmares aren't quite so off the wall. They tend to be more the sort of things you would expect: childhood scares, like Xander's clown. Areas of worry we already know about, like Willow's stagefright. Some things we don't, like Buffy's issues with her Dad, and her fear of death, and of being vamped, both lovely foreshadowy scenarios. The close-knit quality of Giles' and Buffy's fears - in the graveyard, it's had to disentangle which of their nightmares it is, they fit so seamlessly together.

The central theme is child abuse, and perhaps the difficulty adults have in taking it seriously. The child has been hit by his coach. OK, that's a big deal, and the coach would have gone down for it once it came out. But what does it mean to the child? Would we be more anxious to solve a child's nightmare situation if not solving it meant our own nightmares were made real? I think there's something of this in this episode - switching the point of view from outside to inside. Nightmares touch the deep things inside us, child or adult, and we play with the fear in gothic fictions.

I found Giles' nightmare scenario one of the most touching: he fears losing his memory, and his ability to read. Getting lost in his own library stacks is the worst thing that he could possibly imagine happening: it breaks down his normal rationality, and briefly he can't even reason.

That's something the episode brings out, how these deep fears can paralyse us, throw us back into a childhood state. All the scoobies go through a stage of helpless panic, and struggle through to a place where they can deal with it. Giles gets his mind working again, Xander realises he's big enough to hit his clown, Buffy is able to look outside her devastation at her father's accusations, and see Billy. And then she is able to face her vamped state in the graveyard, hold it together long enough to complete the job.

Ah, the graveyard. The graveyard is an element of true gothic, in the Sunnydale landscape. Dark and brooding, full of crumbling crypts and ancient statuary, it stands in for subconscious unease, the power of mysticism and superstition lurking behind the sunny malls. Here, in a world where dreams are becoming real, it enters the day - still clothed in perpetual night, just over the road from the school. What a nice piece of symbolism!

[> OT to MsGiles [sorry, mini-thread-hijack in process] -- Rob, 10:09:07 08/14/03 Thu

I'm currently working on the FH&T pages at the Annotated Buffy, and I realized that I neglected to save to my HD the first batch of your notes. You didn't happen to save them, did you? And I hate to ask you this, but if you didn't save them, would you at all mind at least rewriting your note on the British "cluck-cluck" noise? Because the episode notes just won't be complete without a "cluck-cluck" note! ;o)

Many thanks in advance.

Rob

P.S. I have all your notes from right after the "cluck-cluck" noise. So don't worry about them. :o)

[> [> Typo!! Obviously should've been "in proGress". Ugh. -- Rob, 10:14:49 08/14/03 Thu


[> S1 as rough draft for later shows -- mamcu, 12:09:15 08/14/03 Thu

Many of the early episodes seem to try out themes and plots and characters that get a much better treatment in a later season. Nightmares has always struck me as a sort of proto-Restless. It has got some good work with the morphing from reality to dream, the blending of the two, while Restless appears to draw a line between the dream world and the real world. AS MsG says, the dreams in Nightmares are very conventional, but in Restless they're perfectly individualized, unique, but thoroughly related to past and future, psychology, etc. Symbolism is a lot more subtle and inexplicable (e.g., cheese).

(But Restless does so many wonderful things--hard to believe they're part of the same series.)

However, some similar notes from both dream sequence episodes:

Backstage at a play, unprepared for the part
Following mysterious creatures
Sharing parts of dream experience
following different characters, but into related places,
etc.


There have been other things that were try-outs in S1 and done more fully later:

robots
possessions
witches
and of course--Big BAds

[> [> fleshing out characters too -- MsGiles, 05:01:41 08/15/03 Fri

Although the dreams are less creative than in later Buffy series, I did like Nightmares. It's hard sometimes to remember how new all the characters were, back then.

Thinking about that, I suppose that as important as the main story in this ep is the way it helps establish the Scooby gang. As much as being about fears and phobias, it's about the gang's weak points, their Achille's heels.

We get Giles' intellectualism, his reliance on his memory and reading skills. We see his panic when they fail him, how for a moment he is vulnerable and unable to lead. There's more about Willow's stagefright, brought up last ep. which holds her frozen and beyond rational thought (all the more impressive that she can overcome it to teach in the next series). Cordelia's reliance on her looks and fashion sense proves to be her downfall (as she's dragged off screaming with her hair a frizzy mass and her clothes stuck somewhere in the '70s), and Xander's greed, which leads him into his own childhood nightmare.
With Buffy, we find out more about Hank, and how she feels vulnerable about her parents splitting up. We find out that her cheerleadery buoyancy hides deep anxiety about Hank, and about the Master and her ability to face him. We find that she fears being buried alive - particularly poignant when we ff to Bargaining. And she fears being vamped. DreamVampBuffy is clearly still Buffy and not a desouled monster, but she is getting hungry ..

They all fall victim to helpless panic, but they all (except perhaps Cordelia) manage to get on top of it and get on with the job. Xander realises he has the strength to knock out his Killer Klown. Willow tears herself away from the mesmerising spotlight. Giles manages to forget his disability, and realises he *can* still think. Like the others, Buffy is eventually able to see through her fears enough to control them and get on with solving the problem at hand. She is able to look up from Hanks devastating accusations to see Billy, sadly lurking. Able, at the end to control her vamp ferocity and direct it at a suitable target - Billy's Ugly Man- giving coma-bound Billy the break he needs to deal with trauma of his coach beating him senseless.

My Season Seven -- Nino, 10:09:17 08/14/03 Thu

My Season Seven:

-Had the First appear as all the Big Bads (in a "Lessons"-esque fashion) to Buffy in "Chosen".

-Gave the First a concrete plan, trying to become a physical entity, possibly using the power of the scythe, and maybe even involed a kick-ass final fight between Buffy and a newly corporeal, ever changing slew of deceased Buffy characters...possibly ending with real Buffy, killing Evil Buffy, and foiling the First's plans. (Instead of that lame ass attempt at killing a bijilion Ubies).

-Had the First appear to Giles as Jenny Calander to plant the seed of doubt in Buffy's ability as a leader, thus explaining some of his shady behavior.

-Had the First appear to Anya as Halfrek, to make her feel as though she wasn't really part of the group and suggest that Buffy's superiority complex might cause Anya her life (as a nice prelude to her speech in "Empty Places").

-Had the First appear to Willow as Warren and Rack to make her guilt stop her from using magic.

-Showed Dawn truly suspecting Buffy as evil after "CWDP" especially after being ignored by her in "Potential".

-Did not include the episode "First Date".

-Mentioned "From Beneath You it Devours..." in the second half of the season.

-Had all the Scoobs talk about Beljoxa's Eye and show suspicion towards Buffy.

-Had Willow go specifically to Amy (not the lame-ass Wicca group) when she turned into Warren, only to find that Amy was either A.)an agent of the First or B.)The First appearing as a dead Amy.

-Didn't have Kennedy (the only character in the Buffyverse, I truly disliked).

-Had Xander and Anya get back together after they had sex again.

-Didn't have Xander's stupid Starbucks joke by the crater after he just found out the love of his life died.

-Had a non-evil Joyce appear one last time in "Chosen"

-Had the First Slayer appear in more then one scence in "Get it Done" and talk all crypticy.

-Had some quality Dawn/Spike scenes...maybe even just ONE quality Dawn/Spike scene.

-More Dawn, Anya and cool First visits...less boring speeches.

-Had the First truly trying to tear apart the Scoobs from the inside, instead of a couple half-ass attempts.

-Had Principal Wood die at the end of the battle...not that I didn't like him...just didn't want Anya to be the only one to go! (Sorry, Spike doesn't count).

-Had a heated scene in Willow's car on the way back from L.A. in "Dirty Girls" that was appropriate given Willow and Faith's history.

-Had Willow smile more.

These are just a few things I think about...just for the record, I still liked season 7. I am Spike fan. I liked where they went with him. I liked "Chosen." I liked a lot of stuff about season 7...but there was so much more, for lack of a better word...potential.

[> Yeah, that woulda helped. -- Gyrus, 11:40:11 08/14/03 Thu

Your hindsight is definitely 20/20; I agree with pretty much everything you said. (Except for killing off Wood -- SOMEBODY has to teach Faith that not all men are beasts. Plus, its nice to have at least one episode in which the black guy doesn't die.)

[> [> Yup. -- dream, 12:12:04 08/14/03 Thu


[> My Season Seven - Why? -- Claudia, 12:35:07 08/14/03 Thu

My Season Seven:

-Had the First appear as all the Big Bads (in a "Lessons"-esque fashion) to Buffy in "Chosen".

(Why? Why would it have been necessary for the First to appear as all of the Big Bads from the past?)

-Gave the First a concrete plan, trying to become a physical entity, possibly using the power of the scythe, and maybe even involed a kick-ass final fight between Buffy and a newly corporeal, ever changing slew of deceased Buffy characters...possibly ending with real Buffy, killing Evil Buffy, and foiling the First's plans. (Instead of that lame ass attempt at killing a bijilion Ubies).

(Again, why? There was no way in the world Buffy could have defeated the First in corporeal form. She barely survived when the First took hold of Caleb and although she killed Caleb, the First remained intact, although in non-corporeal form. I don't see the reasoning behind this.)

-Had the First appear to Giles as Jenny Calander to plant the seed of doubt in Buffy's ability as a leader, thus explaining some of his shady behavior.

(The First didn't have to bother. Giles' own personality made this possible. It's not the first time he has doubted Buffy's ability as a leader. And remember his dream in "Restless"? It indicated his own desire to control Buffy in a paternalistic fashion. In Season 6, he wanted Buffy to grow, but only because he felt he wasn't an effective Watcher for her. And he was right. But when "she" started showing signs that she had really outgrown him, he didn't take it very well. And the destruction of the Watcher's Council, along with Buffy's growing closeness with Spike did not help matters for Giles. He didn't need the First. He was botching up on his own, just fine.)

-Had the First appear to Anya as Halfrek, to make her feel as though she wasn't really part of the group and suggest that Buffy's superiority complex might cause Anya her life.

(Again, why? Anya's resentment toward Buffy has been around for a long time, although suppressed during most of her years on the show.)

-Had the First appear to Willow as Warren and Rack to make her guilt stop her from using magic.

(Somehow, I don't think Warren or Rack's appearance would have made a difference. Sorry.)

-Showed Dawn truly suspecting Buffy as evil after "CWDP" especially after being ignored by her in "Potential".

(Sorry, but again, why? She was never warned that Buffy would turn evil, but that Buffy would reject her.)

-Mentioned "From Beneath You it Devours..." in the second half of the season.

-Had all the Scoobs talk about Beljoxa's Eye and show suspicion towards Buffy.

(Again, why? They had enough fodder to be suspicious about - Spike, her growing alienation from the Scoobies, the battle against Caleb.)

-Had Willow go specifically to Amy (not the lame-ass Wicca group) when she turned into Warren, only to find that Amy was either A.)an agent of the First or B.)The First appearing as a dead Amy.

(Amy was never dead. Although, I never saw any reason to have Amy in this episode, in the first place.)

-Didn't have Kennedy (the only character in the Buffyverse, I truly disliked).

(Won't comment on this.)

I'm sorry, but I find most of your comments . . . irrevelant. But, you are entitled to your opinions.

[> [> I think most of our comments qualify as that... -- ponygirl, 12:43:42 08/14/03 Thu

Irrelevant. Opinionated. But interesting.

Could be a nifty motto!

[> [> [> Hmmmm. . . -- Claudia, 16:48:41 08/14/03 Thu

Hmmm, it does sound like a nifty motto. I wonder if Whedon feels the same about the opinions of others.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hmmmm. . . -- Yellow Bear, 09:53:09 08/15/03 Fri

I'm sure he does.

[> [> Because... -- Nino, 09:26:53 08/15/03 Fri

Woo! Sorry for taking so long to respond...I was mid-response when the lights went out yesterday! But thanks to Gyrus for defending some of my points as I would have, while I was MIA.

(Why? Why would it have been necessary for the First to appear as all of the Big Bads from the past?)

-You're right, not necessary at all...but weren't you just itchin for the First to do SOMETHING? I mean, we have this potentially awesome Big Bad, who teased us hardcore in "Lessons" and he barely worked his evil ways on the Buffster...

(Again, why? There was no way in the world Buffy could have defeated the First in corporeal form. She barely survived when the First took hold of Caleb and although she killed Caleb, the First remained intact, although in non-corporeal form. I don't see the reasoning behind this.)

-Well, my idea was that she would defeat the First before the transformation could be complete...like I said, this is just MY ideal season...but as Gyrus pointed out, defeating the First in this fashion wouldn't kill the First Evil, only foil its plans much like Buffy did in "Chosen" anyway. And I also think this would have prevented Buffy's dumb ass decision to try to kill a bijillion ubies with her wanna-slay-brigade...Besides, I'm not a writer...all I wanted was SOMETHING that resembled a concrete, focused plan...instead of releasing a couple nasties and trying to get Andrew and Spike to kill people...am I wrong here?

(The First didn't have to bother. Giles' own personality made this possible. It's not the first time he has doubted Buffy's ability as a leader)

-Right again! And yet, isn't the First suppose to symbolize those fears and doubts we have on some level? Wasn't that the point of it whispering evil nothings in Willow's ear in "CWDP?" She was already frightned of her power, but the First scared her anyway, in one of the best eps of the season. Why didn't other major characters get the same attention, when obviously the same result was wanted...to get the group to turn on Buffy and/or fall apart. Plus it would explain Giles' shadiness a little better in my eyes...and wouldn't it just have been COOL? I mean seriously...

(Again, why? Anya's resentment toward Buffy has been around for a long time, although suppressed during most of her years on the show.)

-And again I say...it just woulda been cool...why even bother having the First around at all if it isn't going to DO anything...these are just a few example I thought off the top of my head...my basic concern was that the First did not seem have his hand is the lives of the Scoobies...which made the whole season feel kinda disconnected.

(Somehow, I don't think Warren or Rack's appearance would have made a difference. Sorry.)

-Ok, now thats just silly...why would seeing the people she killed NOT have made Willow's scared-of-everything attitude make a little more sense? I mean, are you suggesting that the First shouldn't have appeared to ANYONE? Which visits did you like? You don't think the First, as an entity which can be any dead person, left much to be desired on a series where the dead characters are so important to the living ones? Call me crazy...but what made me excited about the season after seeing "Lessons" was this very possibility..that when they said "Back to the Beginning" they meant it...Didn't you like the Mayor's visit to Faith? Granted, there was not really much follow through in Faith doubting Buffy, but there wasn't much time left...had the visits to the Scoobs happened all season, season 7 coulda been chock-full of character developmenty goodness...instead of boring speeches that had no affect on anything.

(Sorry, but again, why? She was never warned that Buffy would turn evil, but that Buffy would reject her.)

-I just meant it would have been nice to see Joyce's words to Dawn affect Dawn for more then 1 episode.

(Amy was never dead. Although, I never saw any reason to have Amy in this episode, in the first place.)

-Of course Amy was never dead...on screen...So we can't go for some shock value when Willow tries to touch a character we think to be alive, only to find it is the First? I think that woulda been cooler then the Is he/Isn't he Giles storyline...Besides, I liked Amy showing up...I just didn't like the RANDOM reasons she gave for putting the hex on Willow, w/o explaining how she knew Kennedy was a potential...They brought her back (yay) then wasted her with an anticlimatic jealousy speech (sigh).

-And about Kennedy...sorry folks, I never bitch about not liking characters...Riley, Spike...hell, Maggie Walsh...are all OK in my book..i think im entitled to one character in seven years.

-And "First Date" was a disastrous waste of time...SO much could have been done in the 40 minutes wasted on Ashanti and a couple lame jokes...the only redeeming part of the ep was the final scene when the First was actual cool enough to appear as Nikki to Wood.

-Sorry I'm kinda flustered right now, so this isn't very cohesive, I had a lot of thoughts...but I'm sure you'll all survive w/ohearing me bitch

[> [> [> How do you define "waste of time"? -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:30:27 08/15/03 Fri

It gave us a short breather from the arc plot, provided plenty of entertaining jokes, revealed who Principal Wood really is, showed us that the Seal of Danthalzar could be used more than once, and showed that Andrew was willing to stay with the good guys even when given a choice. I'm not quite clear how that is a "waste of time". It advanced the arc story ("Storyteller" and "Lies My Parents Told Me" could never have happened without this episode), as well as giving us just some good old fashioned entertainment. Yes, the Ashanti demon wasn't the best, but she had very little screentime. I count only three scenes with her in them, and she did get a couple of funny moments (the rope discussion, as well as saying, "Do the ropes hurt?" "Yes." "Good!").

[> [> [> [> Sorry...it just plain sucked -- Nino, 10:48:17 08/15/03 Fri

When Buffy said "That may be the best thing I've ever had in my mouth..." I wanted to vom all over the place...(especially since we all know the best thing she had in her mouth was in "Gone" :) )

I just thought this ep sucked...after reading the Joss interview that basically said it would have been silly to have Dawn go on a date with all this important stuff happening, I thought it was especially crappy that they found time for an Ashanti appearance. The whole ep was just lame...especially when the time could have been used for some stuff that was missing this season...ie) Dawn, Dawn, and more Dawn...Yeah, the stuff that advanced the plot was necessary, but I don't think the ep was well done...that's just me.

[> [> [> [> [> Don't lay it on the Ashanti demon -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:54:50 08/15/03 Fri

She was barely even in the episode. If three fairly short scenes that don't really affect most of the others ruin an episode for you, than you have much higher standards than I do. It's all right if you don't like the episode, but I'm just saying that I don't see why the Ashanti appearance would bother you, considering that she had only three scenes, none of which lasted very long, and the last of which consisted solely of a brief fight between her and Buffy. I can understand if you didn't like the ep (even though I disagree), but I'm just saying the Ashanti demon doesn't seem like an appropriate target.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Luckily, I didn't blame it all on Ashanti... -- Nino, 14:44:05 08/15/03 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't say all of the blame went there . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:19:41 08/15/03 Fri

However, you specifically mentioned her in the summary of your post. Since that's such a key portion, I assumed that a lot of your dislike was directed towards her. Of course, I have a tendency to put the thing I read most recently (such as the end of a post) as most important, so I may have misread your intent.

[> Evil Disection of Ideas! -- Majin Gojira, 13:58:47 08/14/03 Thu

(Some ideas are good, other's..would be bad.)

"My Season Seven:

-Gave the First a concrete plan, trying to become a physical entity, possibly using the power of the scythe, and maybe even involed a kick-ass final fight between Buffy and a newly corporeal, ever changing slew of deceased Buffy characters...possibly ending with real Buffy, killing Evil Buffy, and foiling the First's plans. (Instead of that lame ass attempt at killing a bijilion Ubies).

(Oh, sure, get rid of the entire meaning of the First even existing. And have Buffy kill it too! You cannot defeat the idea of evil, is she did...well, the ramifications would be as disasterous as if the First actually WON. Now, having a better idea of the full plan of the first would have indeed helped, but your suggestion of an alternate plan from what was displayed...is really very lacking.)

-Did not include the episode "First Date".

(Just because you didn't like the episode, does not mean it didn't serve a purpose...)

-Had Willow go specifically to Amy (not the lame-ass Wicca group) when she turned into Warren, only to find that Amy was either A.)an agent of the First or B.)The First appearing as a dead Amy.

(What? People can't be evil all on their own?!)

-Didn't have Kennedy (the only character in the Buffyverse, I truly disliked).

(Ignore the roll she played for Willow's development. Sure, you could probably have asked for alittle bit more from her, but removing her completely does more harm than good. finding a better replacement, OTOH...)

-Had Xander and Anya get back together after they had sex again.

(Because then Anya's death would have been more poingnent and really devestated Xander--throughing off the entire mood of the final scene)

-Didn't have Xander's stupid Starbucks joke by the crater after he just found out the love of his life died.

(See Above)

-Had a non-evil Joyce appear one last time in "Chosen"

(Um...Why?)

-Had the First Slayer appear in more then one scence in "Get it Done" and talk all crypticy.

(Does it have to be served on a silver platter?)
-Had the First truly trying to tear apart the Scoobs from the inside, instead of a couple half-ass attempts.

-Had Principal Wood die at the end of the battle...not that I didn't like him...just didn't want Anya to be the only one to go! (Sorry, Spike doesn't count).

(Amanda died to! >:( Wood is necessary for Faith Development as a Character.)

-Had a heated scene in Willow's car on the way back from L.A. in "Dirty Girls" that was appropriate given Willow and Faith's history.

(Not disagreeing with this at all, I just want to say a resounding YES to that statement)

-Had Willow smile more.

(Sure, we're dealing with THE EVIL, but let's smile anyway! -_-;)

These are just a few things I think about...just for the record, I still liked season 7. I am Spike fan. I liked where they went with him. I liked "Chosen." I liked a lot of stuff about season 7...but there was so much more, for lack of a better word...potential.

(Agreed, but some of your suggestions downright suck/would skrew up everything else. My opinion on the suckage is only an opinion, but the world-screwing is a definite. I'm not trying to be mean, really, I'm just blunt and Stubborn. They are your opinons and your entitled to them, but so am I.)

[> [> Re: Evil Disection of Ideas! -- Gyrus, 14:34:55 08/14/03 Thu

(Oh, sure, get rid of the entire meaning of the First even existing. And have Buffy kill it too!

Killing the First's physical form wouldn't have to mean killing the First -- just returning it to its noncorporeal state. As you say, evil can't die.

-Did not include the episode "First Date".
(Just because you didn't like the episode, does not mean it didn't serve a purpose...)

Couldn't someone with better acting skills than Ashanti's have served said purpose?

-Had Willow go specifically to Amy (not the lame-ass Wicca group) when she turned into Warren, only to find that Amy was either A.)an agent of the First or B.)The First appearing as a dead Amy.

(What? People can't be evil all on their own?!)

Sure they can, but having Amy be the First's agent would explain how she knew that Kennedy was a Potential (something that was never explained on-screen).

-Didn't have Kennedy
(Ignore the roll she played for Willow's development. Sure, you could probably have asked for alittle bit more from her, but removing her completely does more harm than good. finding a better replacement, OTOH...)

Right-O. A new girlfriend for Willow was a good idea -- just not THAT girlfriend.

-Had Willow smile more.
(Sure, we're dealing with THE EVIL, but let's smile anyway! -_-;)

Now and then, plot development must be made secondary to showing off the sheer cuteness of Willow. :)

[> [> I think they could have pulled off killing the First -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:31:14 08/14/03 Thu

A while back, I speculated that in 7.21 the First Evil would die, and they'd have to finish off its minions in the final ep. That would show that evil continues to exist with or without the First; it was just an embodiment of evil's origin, not the total sum of all evil.

[> My First Evil -- dmw, 14:35:59 08/14/03 Thu

Gave the First a concrete plan

I have some quibbles with the particulars of the plan, but the First needed to have some sort of reasonable and interesting plan. Here's some of what the FE did in my season seven:

-The FE appeared as Buffy to lead (i.e., corrupt and generally harm) the Scoobies and SITs for an episode.

-The FE haunted Buffy by appearing as all those who had been killed during Buffy's tenure as Sunnydale slayer.

-The FE became near omnipresent in Sunnydale by late season--it's the clerk at the grocery store, your next door neighbor, the helpful policeman--terrorizing the populace and giving them a real reason to flee Sunnydale.

As for the other characters in my season 7:

-Buffy remembered her leadership skills from Graduation and retained her ability to deal with stress from season 5, so there were fewer speeches and more action.

-Dawn remembered that she was the Key and so did Giles, with their research revealing that there was a purpose for the monks turning a potentially world-destroying artifact in a teenage girl. The Key had an essential part in defeating the First instead of some deus ex machina from another show.

-Willow didn't feel guilty about killing Warren (though she felt a bit guilty about not feeling guilty), but her darkness over the season was more a result of grief about Tara and guilt for hurting her friends last season.

-Willow didn't spend the entire season worried and whining about how afraid she is to use magic either; she's more like Wesley on Angel, dark but with a purpose. She also didn't forget Latin, and Dawn didn't suddenly know Sumerian.

-Anya actually found herself after Selfless, formed new friendships with the Scoobies, and started the Magic Box again as a safe retail establishment in the land of the First, but didn't get back together with Xander.

-Xander became Buffy's closest confidant (who else can she trust after season 6?) The two grew closer together and we saw the glimmerings of the beginnings of a relationship, which both put aside until the First Evil was defeated.

-Faith and Willow talked on the ride home, discovering how each of them has changed. They approached each other warily but gradually developed trust in each other.

-Faith always got along with Dawn, especially as Buffy hid the worst of what happened to shelter her little sister. Buffy is irritated by the fact that Dawn idolizes the cool, dark slayer.

That's it for now.

[> [> My Willow/Kennedy -- dmw, 14:47:24 08/14/03 Thu

I forgot to add:

-My Willow wasn't ready for another relationship so soon. I've waited longer after a bad breakup, and though I like Kennedy as a SIT, I think W/K was there to show people that Willow was still gay. My Willow might have had sex in a heat of the moment impending doom situation (as in Lover's Walk, though not with Xander) but nothing more.

[> [> Re: Dawn on Faith (not in a nasty way) :-) -- Just George, 21:44:08 08/14/03 Thu

dmw "-Faith always got along with Dawn, especially as Buffy hid the worst of what happened to shelter her little sister. Buffy is irritated by the fact that Dawn idolizes the cool, dark slayer."


I've seen this idea in some fan fics. I think it would have been more likely if it had emotionally happened the other way, ie that Dawn hated Faith. Buffy doesn't have to tell Dawn anything bad about Faith. Everyone Dawn admires could tell her stories about times when Faith had almost killed people that Dawn loves:


* Xander telling Dawn about how Faith held Willow at knife point and almost killed her. And Xander telling how Willow was so brave to stand up to Faith. The "badder" Xander makes Faith, the better Willow looks.

* Willow telling Dawn about how Faith almost killed Xander by choking him to death and was only saved by Angel. And Willow telling Dawn that she must never ask Xander about it. Secrets are always delicious.

* Tara telling Dawn about how "wrong" Buffy's aura looked when Faith stole Buffy's body. Tara would be appropriately proud of this observation. It was one of the first times Tara made a "big" contribution to defeating a threat to the Scoobies.

* Joyce telling Dawn about how brave Buffy was when she shattered the window and saved Joyce from Faith. Remember that Joyce called Faith a "psycho" and told Faith that "my daughter is going to kill you." Joyce was proud of Buffy. The "badder" Joyce makes Faith look, the better she makes Buffy look.


Given this, I'd think it would be more likely that Buffy would be annoyed that Dawn held a continuing distrust of Faith, even after Buffy had forgiven her.

Anyway, having Dawn threaten Faith would have been funny. Dawn could have reused the "you do sleep..." line. It worked so well the first time.

-Just George

[> [> [> Re: Dawn on Faith (not in a nasty way) :-) -- Malandanza, 08:12:36 08/15/03 Fri

"I've seen this idea in some fan fics. I think it would have been more likely if it had emotionally happened the other way, ie that Dawn hated Faith. Buffy doesn't have to tell Dawn anything bad about Faith. Everyone Dawn admires could tell her stories about times when Faith had almost killed people that Dawn loves:"

The same reservations you have about Dawn/Faith could be said about Dawn/Spike -- Willow or Xander could tell Dawn about the Lovers Walk kidnapping and threatened murder (Spike told Willow that if she failed the love spell, he'd kill Xander and she'd try again). Willow might also mention the implied sexual threat (I haven't "had" anyone...) both in Lovers Walk and later in Season Four when Spike attacked her in her dorm room. There were plenty of times in Season Two and Four when any of the gang could talk to Dawn about Spike's attempts to kill them. In Season Five Buffy could mention the serial killer shrine Spike built to her; the knocking out, chaining up, and threatened murder if she didn't say she'd be his girlfriend; the Buffybot he had Warren build so he could have sex with a totally submissive plastic Buffy... and so on. Yet Dawn had a little crush on Spike until Xander told her about the attempted rape.

I can see the same thing with Faith. After all, even Willow and Xander thought Faith was a cooler version of Buffy when they first met her. The hostility between Dawn and Faith is easily imagined, though -- just add Dawn as a hostage just before Faith took over Buffy's body. A real threat to Dawn (and her mother) would do much to dispel any romanticization of the dark slayer (darkness is sexy and cool until it affects you).-- it seems reasonable to me that Dawn may once have had little Faith worship, but outgrew it after an attack. A better question might be why she forgave Willow so quickly for threatening to turn her into a ball of energy.

[> [> [> [> Re: Dawn on Faith (not in a nasty way) :-) -- dmw, 08:46:15 08/15/03 Fri

That was my thought too: that Dawn might romanticize Faith in the same way she did Spike. There's one other major reason that Dawn and Faith may get along. Dawn's past isn't real. The monks made Dawn Buffy's sister to ensure her protection; however, slayers die, so why not add the possibility of extra protection by creating a good relationship between Dawn and Faith? It's just as easy for the monks to give them a good relationship as a bad one, so it doesn't cost anything to add this extra potential protection for the Key.

From a writing standpoint, I think it's more satisfying to the viewer that animosity between Faith and the Scoobies be based on what we actually saw during those seasons; however, it's also good to have a contrasting character who reacts differently to Faith. As we don't know what happened with Dawn and Faith in seasons 3-4, there is complete flexibility in writing their interaction in season 7, making Dawn the obvious choice for that contrasting character as she has a past relationship with Faith, but it hasn't been shown to be a bad one as her relationship with the other Scoobies has been shown to be.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Dawn on Faith (not in a nasty way) :-) -- heywhynot, 10:19:28 08/16/03 Sat

The monks couldn't use Faith to protect Dawn. Dawn was inserted at the end of Buffy v. Dracula. Faith was in prison. The monks gave the key the physical form that Buffy would protect with her life. That is what we saw in Weight of the World. Dawn being brought home and Buffy self-annointed as her protector because that is the type of person Buffy is even as a child.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Faith could leave prison any time she felt a need to do so, as she demonstrated on AtS last season. -- dmw, 10:54:56 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> Awesome...especially the Dawn important-as-the-key thing...that's always been a big wish of mine! -- Nino, 10:41:18 08/15/03 Fri


[> [> [> Thanks -- dmw, 11:18:47 08/15/03 Fri

Thanks for the starting this thread. It's been fun and I'm glad you've enjoyed my ideas. I always wanted more to be done about Dawn's Keyness. I did a little with it in The Dark Rose and her Keyness is a core story element in the fic I'm currently writing.

Tulipp has some great ideas about the Key in her early s7 fic Terra Firma too.

[> Re: My Season Seven -- Pathfinder, 10:03:35 08/15/03 Fri

I should preface this by saying I really liked the Kennedy character and I liked her with Willow. That said, My Season Seven:

--Allowed Joss to bring back Tara as he reportedly wanted to do. It could have had much more emotional impact than the 'Willow moves on' story line. I'd still love to hear more of the specifics of just how Joss envisioned the whole 'Tara comes back from the dead' story line playing out.

Also, My Season Seven:

--Would've spent more time on the so-called Core Scoobies and their history. Such as...

--Xander's lie from "Becoming" in Season 2 ("Willow said...Kick his a**"). Still seems a bit odd that neither Willow nor Buffy would've come back to that after "Selfless."

--Would've dealt more directly with Giles snuffing Ben at the end of Season 5. Whether you think it was absolutely necessary and entirely justified or not, it was still a major act, and Joss and Co. usually aren't big on writing their core characters committing major acts without some sort of major repercussions. Given that, I was kind of surprised that it wasn't dealt with in a more direct way in "Lies My Parents Told Me."

[> [> Re: My Season Seven -- dmw, 11:15:28 08/15/03 Fri

I thought it was great that they finally brought up Xander's lie, then nothing happened, so I'd definitely agree with doing something about that.

And about Giles killing Ben too. I always thought that someone might figure it out, especially as Tara apparently forsees the event and accuses him of it early in The Gift. It might help this arc along if Tara comes back as you suggest.

[> [> [> I'm sure someone reported... -- KdS, 15:06:07 08/15/03 Fri

... around the time that Lies was first broadcast that in the original shooting script Giles told Buffy about Ben in the graveyard scene, but they decided not to do it for some reason. Personally, I think it's in character for Giles to do it and never say anything about it to anyone, although it was disappointing that the First didn't bring it up.

[> [> Re: My Season Seven -- Gyrus, 11:24:23 08/15/03 Fri

My Season Seven:
--Allowed Joss to bring back Tara as he reportedly wanted to do. It could have had much more emotional impact than the 'Willow moves on' story line. I'd still love to hear more of the specifics of just how Joss envisioned the whole 'Tara comes back from the dead' story line playing out.

I don't think there were any plans to bring Tara back from the dead; I think the idea was to have the First impersonate Tara in "Conversations with Dead People". But Amber Benson wasn't available, so the woman who played Cassie Newton in "Help" had to take over.

--Xander's lie from "Becoming" in Season 2 ("Willow said...Kick his a**"). Still seems a bit odd that neither Willow nor Buffy would've come back to that after "Selfless."

Heck, I was happy they brought it up at all. It was more than I expected.

--Would've dealt more directly with Giles snuffing Ben at the end of Season 5.

It certainly would have been nice for that act to have some sort of repercussions (however justified it may have been). Of course, I don't know how the Scoobs would have found out about it, as I don't think anyone actually saw Giles kill Ben.

[> [> [> Actually... -- Nino, 13:32:12 08/15/03 Fri

I remember the interview that he was talking about that Joss said he wanted to bring Tara back in a a huge, elaborate arc..it sounded kinda corny to me, but the more Tara the better, I suppose....

...and I forgot to mention on My Season Seven the Giles/Ben thing...I was waiting for that too...

I loved the "Becoming" reference in "Selfless" and it is one of the reasons I love Drew Goddard, because he writes like a fan and brings up things that we have definitly not forgotten. How much more "back to the beginning" can you get?

[> [> [> [> Tara's Return or Lack Thereof -- dmw, 18:48:20 08/15/03 Fri

Joss also said more than once that Amber would be coming back but not as Tara and also that Tara's story was over and Marti confirmed those views, so I don't know whether you should believe that one interview over all his past ones.

I would've liked to have seen a resurrection done right on Buffy (Darla's was pretty good on Angel), especially after the disappointment of Bargaining. I wanted to see something a bit more mythological.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Tara's Return or Lack Thereof -- Yellow Bear, 20:37:30 08/15/03 Fri

Then again if Joss was planning to bring back Amber as Tara, would he really announce it in the press.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tara's Return or Lack Thereof -- Pathfinder, 22:01:58 08/15/03 Fri

/Then again if Joss was planning to bring back Amber as Tara, would he really announce it in the press./

Exactly. Given a certain demonstrated lack of veracity among the writers when commenting on upcoming plot points and character development while the series was in production, I would actually tend to take what Joss said after all was said and done a bit more seriously.

Just my opinion...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tara's Return or Lack Thereof -- dmw, 10:56:00 08/16/03 Sat

Given the lack of veracity from the writers, I'd be more inclined to believe Amber Benson's explanation rather than Joss's.

[> Agree with all your points. -- s'kat, 19:28:42 08/15/03 Fri

Fly On The Wall game... -- ZachsMind, 13:28:40 08/14/03 Thu

The "My meme" threads that played out here the past few days were lotsa fun, so just to continue playing with this concept that each of us saw the same show but have uniquely interesting differences in what we see, I thought I'd try this parlour game on ya. I call it "Fly On The Wall."

There's moments in the show that we didn't see. Moments that would have been nice to see either cuz they were poignant or funny or dynamic or otherwise would have quenched the thirst of our endless curiosity about these characters. Think of your favorite ones and list them. Maybe if you feel like it, add your two cents on what you think happened in that moment, as if you were a fly on the wall at the time, trying if possible to keep continuity in mind and all that. Here's my list to use as a suggested example on how to participate.


Whoops. And I'm outta time for now. Feel free to add your own.

[> One Rah and I came up with after "Orpheus" -- KdS, 13:58:12 08/14/03 Thu

Some point in BtVS Season Three:

We see Angel listening to The Very Best of Barry Manilow sobbing his little heart out. Suddenly we hear (Angel's Vamp!Sense POV) the sound of Buffy's footsteps distantly approaching. Angel hastily turns the stereo off, grabs a copy of La Nausee and arranges himself in a deeply intellectual fashion just as Buffy walks in...

[> [> Except wasn't it Spike who peeked in and saw that? -- Masq, 16:16:08 08/14/03 Thu

The scene we see of Angel reading Sartre was from Spike's pov, I'm pretty sure. And Angel gave no indication he knew Spike was there.

Yay! My power's back!!! -- Rob, 19:55:05 08/14/03 Thu


[> You had no power to begin with!! All the power is mine!! -- Rochefort, 22:32:54 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> Speaking of which... -- Rob, 09:25:36 08/17/03 Sun

Roche, did you see that post I made to you a few days ago? Since you didn't respond I figured you either (a) missed it or (b) were crying. Here it is again, to rub salt into the wound:

Date Posted: 12:51:39 08/14/03 Thu
Author: Rob
Subject: Oh, Roche!!!! Guess what I just got tickets to see?

The new Broadway revival of "Little Shop of Horrors," opening in September...

And guess who's playing Audrey...

KERRY!!!

We will meet once more. :o) :o) :o)

Oh, and :P

Rob

;o)

[> [> [> WHAT!?!? WHAT!??!!? I'm speechless!! I'm without speech! -- Rochefort, 19:52:56 08/17/03 Sun

I'm totally crying; this is just not fair. Oh I know! Rob, I'll pretend to be gay if you'll bring me as your date, yes?

Rochefort

[> [> [> [> I'm gonna need flowers, chocolates, and presents from ya, Roche. Then, we'll talk. -- Rob, fluttering eyelashes, 11:07:53 08/18/03 Mon


[> Hooray! (OT) -- DS, 20:27:11 08/14/03 Thu

But I just saw on CNN that it could be days for Ohio and that it's caused problems with Cleveland's water supply.

[> [> Confirming that Cleveland's water is unappetizing today -- d'Herblay, 09:19:02 08/15/03 Fri

But I, at least, have power.

[> Rob is re-empowered?!? -- LittleBit, 20:41:38 08/14/03 Thu

I'd have thought you could power the entire Eastern seaboard with your cheerleadery energy alone!

[> [> LittleBit is empowered?!? Yay! -- DS, 21:02:51 08/14/03 Thu


[> [> I would've thought so, too...but that was knocked out too! -- Rob, 21:22:10 08/14/03 Thu


[> Missed you last night [smoochies] -- Diana, 04:57:08 08/15/03 Fri


[> Something eerily cool about this blackout thing.. -- ZachsMind, 08:41:38 08/15/03 Fri

Ya learn something every day. Imagine my surprise when I was watching Nightline last night and saw them put up a map showing that one half of the US is on one power grid, the western states are on another, and Texas (where I live) is the only state where 85% of our power is supplied in a self-sufficient manner. This doesn't mean we're completely immune to the concept of blackouts, but if the rest of the country goes, there's less of a chance we'll go with it.

I didn't know that about my own home state. I wonder why we're like that and all the other countries are so interconnected power-wise? Doesn't seem all that wise, does it?

Fanficionadoes should take note of this by the way: Cleveland was part of what went blackoutty. It's conceivable to write a fanfic where the Scoobies go to Cleveland, and spend two months hunting down the hellmouth there, leading up to a battle in mid August that's so tremendously powerful, the eventual permanent closure of the Cleveland Hellmouth mystically causes the blackout.

Then you could have a closeup of Buffy, after establishing that the blackout is her fault, and she's holding one of the three heads of some beastie that had tried to escape from the hellmouth, then she looks into the camera with a big smile and goes, "oopsie!" Fade to black. Run Credits.

[> Brooklyn is back but Manhattan is still half out, it's last -- s'kat, 09:03:24 08/15/03 Fri

Apparently everyone got power back before Manhattan (ie. New York City hub). They had to rescue 1000 people from subways. Over 800 people from elevators. The subways, LIR
and Amtrack are not running. There is no service out
of Penn Station. Cable is completely out. Air conditioners
are off. It's supposed to get in 90s today and was in 90s yesterday. Nice now at 80 degrees with a breeze.

Most people walked home. Or took ferries. But a ton of people are stuck in Manhattan - sleeping on the sidewalks, and in the station.

New Jersey got their power back before most of New York.
My area came back on around 9am. Manhattan is still out.
According to the news - it was an error that occurred in somewhere in midwest - they don't know where exactly - they think part of Ohio. At least we have water. Cleveland doesn't.

sk (getting off to conserve power)

[> got electricity back this a.m., but couldn't get online till now! -- anom, 11:45:56 08/15/03 Fri

I was actually able to finish a rush job yesterday--it was on paper, not computer, & I get enough sunlight to work by, although I worked the last hour after sunset w/a Tops Light strapped around my head like a spelunker! After clearing up some questions w/the client this morning, I called FedEx to make the pickup. Their communications are still down, so they can't notify the driver to come for the package! I'll have to take a bus (did I mention bus service is reduced?) 65 blocks to their closest center w/counter service, unless I can find one of their trucks making deliveries scheduled before the blackout.

At least my fan is working now. It was pretty yucky there for a while.

[> [> realized i never explained that subject line -- anom, 23:03:46 08/17/03 Sun

In case anyone wants to know: Power came back on in my neighborhood ~8:15 the next morning, but apparently my (local) ISP's server was in a part of town that didn't get power restored till that afternoon. Very frustrating to get "Unable to connect to remote server" all day. BTW, a FedEx pickup location in walking distance was open later that day, so I didn't have to go downtown & deal w/all the transportation problems.

[> Our power came back, went, then came back again! -- Scroll, 13:18:24 08/15/03 Fri


[> Thank the PTB and/or Con Edison -- sdev, 17:16:27 08/15/03 Fri

I just got power back 8pm. I could not take another hot,dark, waterless night and was contemplating flight!
Not even water has been available because it runs on an electric pump.

Anyone want to speculate on causes? I don't know how they could dismiss the big "T" so quickly with the hacking possibilities.

[> [> Causes... -- s'kat, 19:21:41 08/15/03 Fri

Well...they've discounted lighting strikes. They've discounted it being Canada's fault or the Niagra Mohawk
area.

Right now they are speculating it occured off of a line in Cleveland and caused a cascading effect. There's apparently an electrical loop : Detroit/Toledo/Cleveland/Buffalo/Toronto - which connects to Boston, Syracuse, NYC, Hoboken, and PA. Somewhere along the loop - most likely Cleveland there was a failure at one of the plants or short - which caused the other plants to shut down and cascaded through the system.

What's amusing - is that the federal government run by the Rebulicans (who had "too much governement" and worked hard under the Reagan administration for deregulation), has decided as a result of this disaster that maybe de-regulating the electric companies was a bad thing and want to regulate again and take the regulatory power away from the states and give it back to the federal government.
(According to some politicians, *cough*Hilary*cough*, Enron may have caused some of this - I guess Enron was involved with the electric companies and the deregulation/privatization of them?)

It's all sort of interesting considering this is the worst blackout in history - and has given NYC a huge economic blow it did not need. (Hurt Detroit and Cleveland pretty badly as well.) Good news? Broadway is up and running. The MEts are playing tonight, and power is back. The only things not back? The subways they are still unoperational.
We don't expect to have them back up and running until sometime Sat afternoon.

Glad you got your power back, sdeve. Sounds like you had it worse than most of us. (No water or electricity? ugh.)

[> I'm back (back in the New York Groove) -- cjl, 20:57:17 08/15/03 Fri

OK. Everybody I know from New York to Jersey to Cleveland is in one piece. I can relax and post on the board without worrying that I've missed an important phone call.

Anything major happen while I was gone?

[> [> talk about rl problems interfering w/a board meet! is that movie opening rescheduled? -- anom, 23:44:01 08/16/03 Sat

'Cause if it is, maybe I could go after all. I probably could've in the 1st place, since my brother wanted an early lunch on his birthday...but that ended up cancelled too.

So, at the risk of being a nudzh again...are we gonna make another try to get NY folks together to see "American Splendor"? Any idea yet when it'll open?

[> [> [> NYC "American Splendor" meet postponed until further notice. -- cjl, 05:37:44 08/17/03 Sun

Shadowkat said she'd be into it after she comes back from vacation, which should be just around Labor Day Weekend. Not sure how many people will be around the city for a big three-day weekend, but we can try to schedule a movie day around then.

[> [> [> [> looks like i'll be around that weekend--maybe it'll make up for... -- anom, 23:15:07 08/17/03 Sun

...not being able to go to DragonCon after all. It'd be nice if we could have our own meet the same weekend (although I'd rather have one sooner!). Can we get a head count?

[> [> [> [> Re: NYC "American Splendor" meet postponed until further notice. -- s'kat, 06:13:05 08/18/03 Mon

no longer going on vacation - so should be around this weekend.

sk

[> [> [> [> [> this weekend, then? anyone else? -- anom, 10:55:35 08/18/03 Mon

"no longer going on vacation - so should be around this weekend."

I know I said I wanted a meet sooner, but I'm sorry you had to cancel your vacation, shadowkat.

So is this weekend a possibility? Who else can do it then? And when then? Saturday, of course, is out for me (Shabbes ends ~8:30). Anytime Sunday should be fine, although I would like to go to the 11th annual Charlie Parker Jazz Festival, starting at 3 pm in Tompkins Sq. Park. But if that's the best time for everyone else, I can manage to be satisfied w/part 1 on Saturday in Marcus Garvey Park (which I can walk to from shul!).

So once again: head count & preferred times for American Splendor this weekend?

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm booked for Saturday and Sunday this week. -- cjl, 11:15:22 08/18/03 Mon

And since Shabbas starts at 8 on Friday night, that's out too. We always have the option of combining American Splendor movie nite with the Sept. 7 board meeting. Anybody who wants to head out to the movies after the big get-together could just assemble after the meeting breaks up and either hop into the nearest subway or walk to one of my local movie theaters (if American Splendor goes into wide release).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> the original plan was for 3:15 on friday--is that ruled out for this week? -- anom, 11:50:10 08/18/03 Mon

If that's a possibility, I could go to the movie, hang out a while afterwards, & still get home in time for Shabbes (which actually starts closer to 7:30). If it's not, this weekend doesn't look likely. Either of the next 2 weekends is OK for me. But we still need input from other folks.

(In my case, "the weekends" amounts to the Sundays. I'm starting to feel bad about cutting the possibilities in half! Look, if the best time for everyone else is on a Saturday, go ahead...I don't want to be the one holding things up. As long as there's another opportunity coming up soon!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That might be the most workable plan for all concerned. -- s'kat, 14:51:23 08/18/03 Mon

Do it around Sept 7th. I honestly don't see the movie disappearing soon - it's gotten way too much positive buzz.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> so *is* that the plan? how about a vote--labor day weekend or 9/7? -- anom, 23:44:10 08/19/03 Tue

Hey, maybe there'd be a better response if I set it up like one of JBone's faceoffs: Holiday vs Birthday. My vote: Holiday. It'd mean 1 more meet (yay! more is better!), & on a more personal note, it'd make me feel a little better about missing Dragoncon (sigh). And maybe it'd mean more time w/more of the people at the restaurant on the 7th--another way more is better!

Drusilla vs the Beast -- JBone, 20:17:03 08/14/03 Thu

Aw, crap! You mean killing the Beast really does bring back the sun? I thought that was just Angel's retarded fantasy.

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html

[> I know I was rather vocal in my admiration of the Beast... -- ApOpHiS, 21:57:49 08/14/03 Thu

but Dru is my Dark Goddess; I can't stand against her. So here's how it breaks down: A week before she ever meets her opponent, a vision informs her of the Beast's weakness. Some helpful hallucinations lead her to the Beast's boneknife, which she pockets and forgets about until she runs into a giant demon made of volcanic rock. She takes a beating like the rest, but, as history has shown us time and time again, crazy beats powerful every time. Dru's deranged ramblings confuse the simple-minded Beast long enough for her to remember the trinket stashed in her dress and put it to use. Dru's survived battles with Angel and co. for 5 years; the Beast couldn't last one. Ergo, Dru wins and has a neat story to tell her dolls.

[> [> I agree! -- HonorH, 22:30:23 08/14/03 Thu

The Beast was a mere minion. Dru was the one who housebroke Spike all those years ago. She wins exactly the way Pops says.

[> [> [> Re: I agree! -- Arethusa, 06:21:03 08/15/03 Fri

I agree too, although I think she hypnotized him and had him do the Hokey-Pokey just for fun first.

[> [> I agree; now could you write it as a fic? (-; -- dmw, 07:34:32 08/17/03 Sun


[> [> You must have been there? -- mamcu, 08:12:33 08/15/03 Fri

Though I think she also took a snack or two from him before he expired.

[> Drusilla all the way! -- Anneth, 11:23:34 08/15/03 Fri

Dru'd crush that mangy beast, and his little dog, too. She's no fool for love, and wouldn't be caught alive snogging with Evil Cordy, much less working for her. The Beast may think he's all special and powerful, what with the sun-swallowing, but really, he just ate a marble. Dru bagged a slayer, and a pretty effective slayer, at that. Plus, Dru's got that vision thing. She'd dream about Rocky's knife beforehand and finish him off in 34 seconds flat. Drusilla victorious!

[> I'm sorry, but--- -- MaeveRigan, 11:49:37 08/15/03 Fri

Drusilla's a sweetheart in her insanely psychic way, but the only outcome I see in this outcome is the Lava-Beast of apocalypse nowish stomping away from the Pile-of-Ashes-Formerly-Known-as-Dru.

I realize I'm completely outnumbered, but that's my vision and I'm sticking with it.

[> Well, I voted for the Beast... -- Masq, 13:15:20 08/15/03 Fri

in my continuing, if pointless, effort to support the minor AtS characters against the heavy-weights in these sometimes way off-kilter match-ups.

But if you ask me which one I'd rather see back on AtS next season, it'd be Dru! Dru! Dru!

[> I'm confused -- Gyrus, 13:22:03 08/15/03 Fri

Is this vote about which character we like better, or which one would win in a fight? 'Cause for this matchup, I'd definitely have two different answers.

[> [> Both, of course. -- HonorH, 13:42:05 08/15/03 Fri

Y'see, the trick is to figure out how you can make the one you like best win the fight. If you absolutely can't do that, though, go for the one you think would actually win. The rule is: there are no rules. Except vote once and be snarky about it.

[> [> [> Good summary H2O -- Jay - who is finally back online (at least temporarily), 18:55:41 08/15/03 Fri


[> [> Dru would beat the Beast anyway. -- cjl, 20:50:56 08/15/03 Fri

Rocky may be powerful, but let's face it, he ain't too bright. (Getting stabbed by your own sacrificial knife? That's got to be an all-time low in demonic stupidity.) If the guys in A.I. didn't overdose on testosterone and go all John Woo on us in Apocalypse Now-ish, they might have figured out a way to puncture his hide without wasting all that ammo. Dru, blessed (cursed?) with second sight, steals the boneknife from Daddy's weapons cabinet, and dispatches Lava Boy with all due speed--and much taunting about his thing for Cordy: "Ooh," she coos, "poor, sweet Beastie dies from Mummy's love."

"Nightmares" Revisited -- Darby, 09:39:05 08/15/03 Fri

I think that this is the episode that told me that I wasn't watching just any old show, back in the day. Things had been fairly Monster-of-the-Week, with some soap opera elements, up to this, but Nightmares showed writers who were looking beyond the superficial aspects. One of the strongest aspects of this episode is how so many of the inner fears of the characters are so mundane, which makes the Slayer-related fears easier to connect to. As others have said, the episode is also about facing and moving past your fears, not letting them paralyze you (or put you in a coma), and this it does well.

As several have said, this episode has things in common with Restless but isn't up to that caliber. But, like Restless, there are many details that will be used in later shows.

The opening sequence in the Master's lair is effective and thought-provoking. First, we don't know that it's a dream, so there seems to be real peril. On repeat viewing, a couple of questions pop up: is this a prophetic dream for Prophecy Girl, with its accurate depiction of the Master and his sunken church? I know it was easy to use the set and actor they had, but the sequence could have been a bit more vague. Does Buffy see herself (her dream-self) in pigtails? She does wake up with them, but they're not usually her hairstyle of choice. Is the dream connected to Billy, or just setting the stage?

And, we've got the first instance of fear keeping someone from acting - this is not the mind mojo that the Master will use later.

There are several classic dream images. The first is the segue from being grabbed in the dream to Joyce shaking Buffy awake.

More family issues. Buffy's family situation gives her a new vulnerability that the audience can at least imagine themselves in, and hints at some of Buffy's fear issues - first, that her Dad will just stop coming to see her; second, that her Slayer activities contributed to her parents' breakup.

Willow's distant parents are hinted at. We had gotten an earlier hint at absent-minded professorness in I Robot, You Jane, when it was revealed that her father often forgets his house key.

Wendell, the spider guy, is described in the script as "studious looking, perhaps overweight," but the actor could have been in Oz's band. It's nice when casting avoids the obvious "types," which the show is inconsistent about. Of course, he may have been the only auditioner that would let spiders crawl on him...

"Our most fundamental need...is to be heard" leads into Buffy seeing Billy for the first time. It is indicated in the script that most of the students don't notice Billy, but Buffy seems to be drawn to him. Psychic Slayer powers, Buffy empathy, or a history of seeing the boogedy when all around her ignore it?

The book Wendell is using (in Health class) appears to be physics, open to a chapter about light generation. Yeah, that's about right.

The Master is given the expository theme statement - we are defined by our fears and how we deal with them - which is a trifle heavy-handed. Interesting that the Master sees fear as the seat of Power, but too bad the First Evil substituted nagging.

The Master talks about the current situation being a "change for the worse" with no irony - but wouldn't he see a change for the better?

Buffy and Joyce in the car, two lines from the script didn't make it:
BUFFY: "Mom, don't worry. I'm over the divorce. I officially release you from all guilt."
JOYCE: "That's not what I was getting at -- you feel like putting that in writing?

Teleplay by Greenwalt, Story by Joss. That's an odd credit on the show, isn't it?

Willow's spider fear seems to be foreshadowing, but we just get to, um, fear where it might be going (it does show up in Fear Itself though). Somehow, I would have expected spiders to creep out Xander, and Nazis to be Willow's. Maybe that's too predictable.

Giles getting lost in the stacks - does he fear becoming too much the librarian, being pulled so far into the role that he can't find his way out? It is just a cover, it makes sense that he really doesn't want to be one.

He also mentions, rife with portent, that he couldn't find anything useful back there. Another fear: uselessness.

Buffy's history test that she didn't remember - it takes a while before we can be sure that this is a nightmare sequence, since Buffy does miss lots of classes. And is Cordelia a convenient guide figure through this, or does her presence represent something deeper?

Wendell's spider collection wasn't really something a kid should have had - some squiggly nasties in there!

Wendell's real nightmare makes a connection that will rise up very subtly through the whole episode - the close connection between guilt and fear.

Buffy's test experience hinges on another dream classic - the odd progression / jumps of time. Used later in Life Serial.

Interesting that right after playing through a dream based upon her not being in classes, Buffy skips out with Giles to visit the hospital. Some fears are conquered more easily than others, I guess.

The girl in the boiler room leads to one of the more inexplicable subplots - the Ugly Man. Okay, he's Billy's Boogey Man, and attacks Buffy when she's with him, and clues need to be laid about "who" he is, but does he just represent some other fear in the girl he attacks? Maybe Billy fears his coach will hurt others. The Ugly Man never attacks him directly.

Willow still has the photo of her and Giles in her locker. And a Nerf Herder bumper sticker.

Showing up for class in your underwear - can't get more classic than that, right? What I want to know is - is this a gender-specific nightmare? Do girls have this dream too?

Giles fears losing the ability to read? Or does he fear that at some point the critical information will be in a form he can't read? Five languages might not be enough. Foreshadowing of Anya trying to read the spell to counter Dark Willow?

Is "asteroid body" the first case of Buffy inadvertantly substituting one word for another?

The Hank Summers scene is one of the show's most effective ones ever - it's so deliciously underplayed, with Hank just explaining reasonably and Buffy fighting to not cry. Before it became necessary to make Hank a villain in absentia (because, ironically, they needed him absent), he was a fairly interesting character, well-played. The actor seems to have found another profession, though.

Yes, you did help to break us up, and you're a huge disappointment to me. Even as Buffy realizes that something isn't real, she can't help but still feel the devastation. This also sets up a series theme - Buffy is much more beatable and less physically resilient when emotionally crippled.

"That would be the musical comedy version of this." But it would be 5 years before they did mount a musical comedy version.

Billy, like the First Evil, enters doors that are opened by others. But Buffy touches him.

Cordelia's grooming and fashion nightmare seems to fit with the geek / Chess Club one, but we will find out later that Cordy is actually pretty brainy but doesn't like it known.

Willow goes into the basement - makes me realize how rarely the show has those horror-movie moments where we say, "Don't go in there, you idiot!" Willow seems to sense the idiocy, but "Buffy" did call to her.

Once the gang splits up, the order of scenes really starts to vary from the script, even though the scenes themselves stay largely intact. This script is much-more-than-usual with the stage direction, not too surprisingly.

Willow's nightmare is the one most like the sequence in Restless, as if Joss thought there was more to mine from this particular fear. But in Restless, it becomes more a fear of being seen as she truly is. Funny opera sequence, though.

Ah, chocolatey goodness. The clown isn't wearing quite the same outfit Xander did as a pizza / ice cream guy - wouldn't it be neat if he did-? And do people really fear being sliced and diced by clowns?

What would be the last Slayer the Master saw ("You're prettier")? And how'd he see Disney in his trapped church?

Buffy fears being buried alive, something that played out with terrifying effectiveness in Bargaining. And the way it plays into Giles' nightmare makes perfect sense.

Xander is the first to really face his fear, but as a solution it has no force.

Giles' soliloquy on Buffy's grave doesn't quite work. But vamped Buffy does, a preview of the weird repulsive / attractive thing they'll do with Drusilla.

I still tend to believe that Slayers can't be vamped (even though it's been done many times in the non-canon Buffy stuff), but in seven years it's interesting that this has never been directly addressed. Saving it for the feature film-?

How'd they get to the daylight hospital without Buffy combusting? And, the light in the hospital is very confusing.

How did Billy reach out to Buffy? Why was monster Buffy better able to deal with Billy's monster? Did we have a warlock potential here?

The sideways quote from The Wizard of Oz is definite Joss-speak.

The human-as-monster thing is rarely as stark as the kiddie-league coach, but never as lightly dismissed. Every other time human baddies are implicated, it's quite the big thing.

The last scene, not shown:

The Master is sprawled in his chair, sleeping quietly. Suddenly he sits up with a start. The child is nearby.

COLLIN: Bad dream?

The Master nods, but he is not at all unhappy. He turns to the child.

MASTER: Horrible.

And off the Master's delight...END OF ACT FOUR.

[> Re: "Nightmares" Revisited -- Anneth, 11:56:02 08/15/03 Fri

First of all, Darby, (and everyone else), I really appreciate your S1 rundowns. My Buffy collection has spent the summer languishing in storage and for some reason, FX hasn't been running the show in my area, so I've been almost totally BtVS-free for nearly 3 months. It's dreadful. So, as much as I'd like to revisit the S1 eps, I have to do so via the scripts, during my lunch-hours - it ends up getting pretty complicated, and I get through half a script, usually, and then run out of steam or into more work. To conclude, I'm really glad that you and Q and Manwich and everyone else have been contributing these posts. I don't have the time to devote to S1 reviews that I wish I did, so these give me something great to work off of.

That aside - on to the meaty stuff!

"Nightmares" gives the characters and audience a fascinating look into those basic insecurities that make up everyone. Can you even imagine walking into the nightmares of your closest friends? Having them walk into yours? It would be worse than the nightmares themselves, in a sense - you would be left psychologically nude, voulnerable, and helpless.

Xander, in S3, is crushed that he doesn't receive the Class Clown award. And yet his great fear is of clowns. Also, while class clowns are notorious for drawing attention to themselves, Xander is horrified when he realizes he's appeared in class (nearly) naked. All attention is on him, everyone's laughing - but Xander's not in control of the situation. And so he flees. There's some element of this need for control in "Restless" as well; there again, Xander is superficially pleased with his aimlessness, but having it revealed to him without his consent seems to bewilder and terrify him. This basic fear of his, losing control, returns over and over during the series. Fro example, he tries to maintain some semblance of control over the impending disaster of "The Gift" by asking Anya to marry him.

I'd like to go through and talk about each of the Scoobies' nightmares, but I don't have the time right now.

Two last notes - the Giles/Buffy father/daughter relationship receives heavy treatment in this ep, as does Buffy's fear of her inner darkness, which becomes especially relevant in light of Seasons 5 and 6. (as noted by Darby)

[> Addenda -- Darby & Sara, 15:59:56 08/15/03 Fri

Couple of points -

Could the Buffy - Master sequence at the beginning have echoed Billy's own experience at the hands of an older, more powerful figure? Substitute the characters and see if it doesn't creep you out just a bit.

What were they thinking, Sara wants to know, putting Giles in the paisley scarf - with fringe????

[> [> It's just Giles' Dr. Who period -- Vickie, 16:33:46 08/15/03 Fri


[> Re: "Nightmares" Revisited -- Cactus Watcher, 06:41:19 08/16/03 Sat

I agree. Several Buffy episodes in season one had little going for them other than snappy dialogue. "Nightmares" largely changed that. From then on in the series there were more arc stories and fewer stand alones, as if there was a sudden realization at ME they could move the show to a higher level.

I think you're right about Giles and reading. I think more of this could have been explored. Giles' personal feelings except for concern over Buffy were pushed aside as the emphasis in season 2 and 3 focused so much on Buffy and romantic relationships. It changed back in season 4 and we had Something Blue in which something happens and Gile's can't read again. Giles dream in Restless concentrated on his usefulness, but by that time, Willow's research skills were fairly good and Xander was contributing heavily in his own way. Giles was still the best deductive reasoner in the group, but obviously many times reasoning wasn't much help. Ominously, he'd start drinking more...

SEE JANE DATE -- neaux, 10:15:15 08/15/03 Fri

I apologize if this had been mentioned before.. but I was in the breakroom at work and saw this commercial and my jaw dropped.

SEE jane Date

I might actually watch a little of this just to see if Charisma still has a little Cordy in her!

[> It was actually pretty good -- s'kat, 19:43:51 08/16/03 Sat

Oddly enough. For once the lead wasn't a stick figure with no bust to speak of and tiny. She was tall, full figured,
with hips, and long legs. She looked like me and most people I know, real. Go CC!!! You look wonderful!!

Also the story did not end up with the girl getting the first goregous guy she meets. It showed the pit-falls of dating and left us with the message that you don't have to have a significant other to feel fulfilled.

Very surprising. Also CC? She was quite good. Held her
own. I give it three stars out of five.

Worth a watch!

sk

[> Apologize..for SEE JANE DATE -- neaux, 10:17:50 08/15/03 Fri

ok.. I apologize for posting this.. after realizing Evan Marriot is in this movie. @_@

Gomen.

[> [> Re: Apologize..for SEE JANE DATE -- Rendyl, 11:19:50 08/15/03 Fri

Not to be contrary but why are you apologizing for a performance you haven't seen? Many actors have less than stellar lives and still manage to do a decent job on screen. (Tom Cruise comes to mind -- he comes off as such a dork in interviews but he is a decent actor) Evan might be really really bad or he might surprise us all. But until we see how he does there is no need to apologize.

BTW - Charisma was on Jimmy Kimble's show last night. (I caught her on while I was waiting for the Fab Five to show up on Leno) She seemed a little uncomfortable. (But Jimmy annoys me so I could be projecting-grin) She didn't talk about 'Angel'. I missed the end of her interview so she might have loosened up by then.

Ren

[> [> [> Jimmy Kimmel makes everybody nervous. -- ZachsMind, 11:52:02 08/15/03 Fri

I don't know who he conned to get that gig, but I don't like watching him interview anybody. Didn't catch C.C. last night cuz of Kimmel. Won't tune in to his show anymore.

[> [> [> [> Re: Jimmy Kimmel makes everybody nervous. -- Dead Soul, 23:57:08 08/16/03 Sat

I've watched his show a grand total of twice. Once to see AH and the second time to see CC. Never again.

I was writing an email to a friend while I was watching and this is what I said:

She looks very good. sheer white off the shoulder peasant top and jeans. her hair's just above shoulder length and dark again (thank god). Icky beige pumps, though. You just should NOT wear pumps and jeans together. She has a tattoo around her left wrist, abalone earrings, shell bracelet.

She was named after an Avon perfume. They have some - it comes in a snail-shaped bottle. She went to catholic schools and she graduated in 1988.

Showing a clip - eh, the Joe Millionaire guy. And that's all. She hardly said a word and she was mic-ed really low, I could hardly hear her, but everyone else was good and loud. She's still on the couch. I'll tell you if she says anything more.

Then I wrote some other stuff while commercials ran and the other guests were on.

Then some more about the show:

Super Dave Osborne is sitting way too close to her on the couch and she leaning away from him, looking very uncomfortable.

And now the show's over. I think she said a total of ten words, nine of them muffled or talked over by the so-called host. At least Lorne lets her get a word in edgeways.

[> [> [> [> Amy Acker was on Tom Green last night... -- Rob, 12:06:37 08/15/03 Fri

...but it was a complete disappointment. She got on stage with only 3 minutes left to air, and was forced to sit there and watch Tom put green Gatorade and York Peppermint Patties in a blender (because he knew from an interview, that she likes both of those things, but not, of course, together), and then coerce her into drinking it. He asked her one question, about her days as a ballerina, and then said that he wanted to see her do some ballerina moves...But we didn't get to see them. The camera moved to a bunch of dumb guys dancing and drinking the GatoPatties concoction. What a complete waste.

Rob, now suddenly remembering why I never watch Tom Green

[> [> I understand he's only got a cameo -- HonorH, 10:23:53 08/16/03 Sat

--as a jerk, actually. So I wouldn't worry too much.

Spike and Darla -- Claudia, 10:29:28 08/15/03 Fri

Many fan fiction stories have hinted of Spike and Darla's dislike of each other. And yet, I cannot think of a BtVS or AtS episode that ever really reflected their feelings toward one another. Can you?

[> Re: Spike and Darla -- HonorH, 11:15:58 08/15/03 Fri

Well, in both FFL and "Darla," she didn't seem overly fond of him. In FFL, she blamed him for them barely getting out of London alive. Then, in "Darla," there was first the eye-rolling incident when he ate the gypsies she was holding hostage, and later she said to the newly-souled Angel, "While Spike--Spike!--was out killing a Slayer, you were hiding missionaries." The repetition of his name carries the connotation, "Spike! Can you believe it?" While those two incidents don't add up to seething hatred necessarily, I think you can infer that she, at least, wasn't exactly on the Spike love train.

[> [> One more example -- Gyrus, 11:38:45 08/15/03 Fri

Also in FFL: Darla, after advising Drusilla to choose carefully when selecting a man to turn into a vampire, says, "Or you can just go for the first idiot who comes along" after Dru chooses William.

I certainly can't picture Spike and Darla getting along well. They're opposites in a lot of ways. Darla always plans, while Spike is impulsive; Darla places her own needs above those of her lovers, while Spike puts the ones he loves first; and Darla usually chooses manipulation over violence, while Spike defaults to his fists whenever possible.

Not to mention that Spike is Darla's great-grand-offspring, so he's a walking, talking reminder of how old she is.

[> [> [> they seemed to part ways -- Ray, 01:35:03 08/16/03 Sat

Darla sent Dru to Sunnydale to get Spike back into the family. So, I don't know if that means she wanted him back, she wanted the family back (even if she didn't like him), or she needed someone strong after Angel set them on fire.

[> [> [> [> Where do you get that idea from -- Diana, 12:11:59 08/16/03 Sat

Drusilla tells Spike "I want us to be a family again, my William." Never got the impression that Darla sent her. If that was the plan, why didn't Dru come back to LA?

Dru found Darla in the sewers and let Lindsey know (per "Reprise"). There was no grand plan to get Angel after that. Darla is convinced that Dru has abandoned her and she is right.

Darla has little hope of getting Angelus back at that point. "Who is he?" she asks. Angel and Angelus are gone as far as she's concerned. Now Darla is after power and then vengeance against Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree with this. -- HonorH, 12:35:52 08/16/03 Sat

There's no evidence that Darla sent Dru to get Spike. It could just as easily have been Dru's own idea--and, per the evidence Diana gives, likely was.

My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... -- ZachsMind, 19:12:33 08/15/03 Fri

Buffy after Restless and before No Place Like Home when she was the most self-confident ever. After she'd taken down Adam and before Glory knocked her down a few pegs. She and Angel had come to a painful but acceptable understanding, and Spike had not yet registered in her libido. She was Business As Usual Buffy, where nothing short of a banished hell goddess with exquisite fashion sense could get our favorite Chosen One down.

Xander right after The Zeppo when he realized that being the ordinary one could still be pretty extraordinary.

Willow immediately after Spike unsuccessfully bit her in the season four episode The Initiative, just before she knocked him unconscious.

Giles when he appeared at the Magic Box all stoked up by the Coven to take on Dark Willow in Two To Go but before Dark Willow actually kicked his ass in Grave.

Jenny before we found out she was a descendant of the gypsies that cursed Angel, but after we figured out she and Giles were destined to techno each other's pagans.

Oz in New Moon Rising after he came back from Tibet, but before he smelled Willow all over Tara.

Faith in Bad Girls after she taught Buffy how to steal from normal humans but before she demonstrated how to kill normal humans. She was the Want Take Have Slayer, at the height of her game, living on the edge.

Tara in Once More With Feeling when she was walking with Willow through the park and singing to her. Cuz that was sweet. Even though Willow'd screwed the pooch by putting her under a spell, it made for a great song.

Joyce at the end of School Hard when she was so impressed by her daughter's selflessness and confidence that she promised at least a week of going easy on Buffy.

Spike chipped and tied up getting shot by Native American spirits in Pangs. "Hey! Watch the heart!"

Wood when he lured Spike into his lame trap, but before he failed in taking Spike down in season seven's Lies My Parents Told Me.

Anya when she caused Xander to squeeze his juicebox.

Amy immediately after Willow cured her from being a rat in Something Blue, but before she turned her back into a rat. The look on her face was priceless (and Elizabeth Allen nekkid was priceless too).

Jonathan in Superstar. 'Nuff said.

Angel in the first season of Angel the Series, when he was a mad dancin' fool.

Cordelia after Dennis' mom called her a bitch.

Doyle after he decided to sacrifice himself to save his kind, and before he actually did.

Wesley, pretty much any time after he got some balls.

Gunn when he still had a cadre of teens and his sister hadn't been turned.

Fred after she realized Jasmine had turned her whole known world against her, but before she kissed Angel (yuck! vampire cooties!) cuz she was resourceful and quick thinking, but also scared and on edge.

Lorne when... Hell! I'd take Lorne pretty much whenever! When is he NOT fantastic?

Connor.. when he was still a baby.

[> Fabulous! -- Nino, 22:47:28 08/15/03 Fri


[> Re: My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... -- Pathfinder, 06:52:45 08/16/03 Sat

Buffy
--At the end of 'Checkpoint', laying down the law to the Watcher's Council. I almost expected her to broach the issue of a living wage for Slayers while she had the Council on the ropes.

Yep, Xander in 'The Zeppo.' ("I like the quiet.")

Willow
--In season four, from revelling in the joy of "spurty knowledge" in The Freshman to taking a well-aimed verbal swing at Parker in, yes, the much-mocked Beer Bad ("I got your number, Id Boy!"). And Protective Willow giving Riley fair warning in The Initiative. ("Hurt her and I'll beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.") Also, would have to include everything from New Moon Rising (the 'Istabul' scene still makes my allergies act up. Sniff-sniff...) right through to Family. And really liked her Willow-esque stoicism before the essence of the scythe spell in Chosen ("You might have to keep me stabbeded") as well as her giddy reaction to the spell itself ("That was nifty" indeed.) Perhaps I've mentioned that Willow was my favorite character?

Giles
--Letting his inner Ripper out as he 'encouraged' Principal Snyder to let Buffy back in school in Dead Man's Party. ("Would you like me to convince you?")

Oz
--When he flaked out on his Senior year and summer school so he could stay with Willow (Don't try this at home, kids.) Also, when he defined "stoic panic" in Graduation Day. And, of course, at the end of Graduation Day II..."Take a moment to deal with this."

Joyce
--When she threw Buffy's impending re-enrollment in Snyder's face in Faith, Hope & Trick. ("I think what my daughter's trying to say is nyah-na-nyah-nyah-nyah..." ) Elevated her to Lorelei Gilmore Cool Moms of TV status in my eyes.

/Lorne when... Hell! I'd take Lorne pretty much whenever! When is he NOT fantastic? /

Gotta agree with you there. Here's hoping the next season of Angel brings more Lorne, as well as more Wesley and Lilah (I think they actually had even more chemistry after Lilah was killed.)

Connor
--When 'The Destroyer' finally got to just be Normal Boy, happily bantering with his joe normal family at the end of the season finale. Broke my heart right along with Angel's.

[> [> Re: My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... -- dmw, 20:10:51 08/16/03 Sat

You listed almost all my favorite Willow mindsets, except for my very favorite: the Willow of Choices, from her bravery in facing down Faith, her daring in getting papers from the Books of Ascension to the Mayor, and her choice to stay in Sunnydale.

Actually, my favorite Oz is in that episode too--when he shatters the pot for the Box destroying ritual.

[> [> [> Re: My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... -- Pathfinder, 11:58:11 08/17/03 Sun

You're quite right, that was certainly another of Willow's finest moments. Especially liked her having a bit of fun with Giles about the 'way overwritten' books of ascension before handing over some of the 'Best of' pages from said books. That was definitely her day for suave. One of them, anyway.

Just to throw in a couple more Favorite Scoob Mindsets...

Tara:
--After leaving Willow in season six, as she continued to come into her own. Especially liked her in "OAFA" when she put Spike in his place ("a cramp in your pants?") and stood up to Anya ("You're gonna back off").

--And when the almost preternaturally evolved Tara went back to Willow at the end of Entropy. She seemed fully aware that she was skipping a few important steps in the process, but just missed Willow too much to be patient. It was a very human, and endearing moment.

Anya:

-Her big 'fruit punch' speech from The Body. Summed up the shock of death nicely. Also summed up why I loved that character.

Dawn:
-In "Potential", when she realizes she's not a Potential and gives up the spotlight to Amanda without missing a beat.

Xander's speech to Dawn at the end also would qualify as another of my absolute favorite Xander mindset moments, along with "The Zeppo" and his 'crayon speech' to a broken Willow at the end of season 6.

[> Re: My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... -- seven, 11:34:57 08/16/03 Sat

This seems fun but i doubt i'll do all the characters

buffy
Talking to Faith in beauty and the beasts, "Wait, how down low?"

Willow

When she puts Faith in her place in Choices - "It's way too late."

Oz

the Zeppo - Xander says "why are you so cool? is it your short-spoken, non-commital phrases? Oz - "could be."

Wait, i'm really doing my favorite character line's aren't I? oh well.

Giles, Definatly agree with above post. "I'd like to test that theory." the coolest line in the shows 7 years.

Can't think of any more off the top of the noggin, maybe later.

[> Re: My Favorite Scooby Mindsets... (curious about two character omissions) -- Fenugreek, 16:30:36 08/16/03 Sat

I really enjoyed reading this post. However, I noticed you did not include Riley or Dawn. Was it an unintentional omission or have you never liked either of their mindsets? Just curious.

[> [> Well, yes and no... -- ZachsMind, 20:39:10 08/17/03 Sun

After posting that post, I realized I'd neglected Riley. I was going to add a response to my own post listing my favorite mindset moment regarding him, but I got sidetracked. I come in here largely to pass the time in between other things in my life, but offline stuff takes precedence. I forgot to come back in this thread when I was done.

My favorite Riley mindset? When he stabbed Spike in the heart with a plastic stake. For me that was Riley in a nutshell right there. Loved that. Running a close second, when he and Angel fought in a back alley. Not that either of them really won, but just that Riley stood his ground that was really cool. Though both men were being stupid and childish and a bit too much with the testosterone. A sad but very real moment was when he confided in Xander that he knew Buffy didn't love him. Ouch. But it's honest and though harsh, the truth will set you free. I strongly believe people don't give Riley enough credit. Not that I thought he belonged with Buffy or whatever. I just think he was a better character than most fans give him credit.

Regarding Dawn, I have no idea. Your mentioning her is the first I've noticed that I didn't include her in my list. Dawn is my favorite Whedonessque character, so I am more flumoxed than you that I didn't include her. I thought of all the major Angel characters. Jonathan and Amy are higher on my list of favorites than most anyone in Angel. Yet my most favorite character? I did a brain fart. I got absolutely no answer there.

Favorite Dawn mindsets:

Real Me when she was talking (voiceover) about how Xander looked at her as if she were a woman, not realizing that she had syrupy stuff all over her face. That was precious.

Blood Ties when Dawn starts her kleptomania by breaking into the Magic Box with Spike in tow.

Crush when she was hangin' out in Spike's crib listening to his storytelling.

Forever when Dawn does the stupid but brave thing and gets the egg. Throughout season five, Dawn & Spike made a great team. Would like to have seen more of that.

Flooded when Dawn decides she's old enough for research, and then immediately rethinks that.

All The Way when Dawn took out a vamp with a chopstick.

Once More With Feeling when Dawn got to dance.

Wrecked when Dawn slapped Willow.

Seeing Red when Dawn was happy to see Tara and Willow back together.

Grave when Dawn proved she's a chip off the old block.

Lessons has a lot of great mindset moments for her - Dawnie OWNED that episode.

Beneath You when Dawn put Spike in his place.

Same Time Same Place when Dawn made with the researching. It's smellementary.

Conversations With Dead People is about one third Dawnie kicking ass, be it nuking marshmallows or freaking over The First's mind games.

Potential when Dawnie realized she wasn't, Amanda was, and Dawn so did the right thing. Also when she and Xander had that moment there.

Get It Done when Dawn suddenly knew Sumerian.

Empty Places when Dawn finally stood up to her sister in a big way.

End of Days when Dawn stun gunnned Xander.

[> [> [> Thanks for the response... I fully agree with much of it -- Fenugreek, 22:26:44 08/17/03 Sun

"I strongly believe people don't give Riley enough credit. Not that I thought he belonged with Buffy or whatever. I just think he was a better character than most fans give him credit. "

Me too. My favorite Riley moment, the one that I felt epitomized the character's early mindset, occurred in Hush. It was during the battle in the clocktower just as he smashed one of the glass jars that contained a heart. He thought he had followed Buffy's instructions (frantic gestures actually) to a tee and saved everyone. He had such a look of self-satisfaction on his face. But, as you know, the good-hearted well-meaning goof was mistaken and all he had done was make a mess. He did what he thought was the right thing but that didn't turn out to be the case. Fortunately, in that instance at least, he redeemed himself moments later.


"Potential when Dawnie realized she wasn't, Amanda was, and Dawn so did the right thing. Also when she and Xander had that moment there."

Oh yes! That's it exactly. Dare I say that was a big step up the maturity ladder for Dawn. She is one character (among several) that I really would be curious to see five years or so down the road.

At any rate, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response.

CC finally speaks! -- Nino, 23:00:56 08/15/03 Fri

Here is a short article on CC in which she addresses her departure...

http://theedge.bostonherald.com/tvNews/edgeTV.bg?articleid=14&format


I know I'm not the only Cordy-Lover out there, and its nice to hear her be so positive and finally say SOMETHING about what happened...even if it isn't too much.

[> My theory of CC's departure -- Ace_of_Sevens, 20:27:49 08/16/03 Sat

Beyond the rumor that they had to cut someone from budgetary reasons, I suspect Cordelia was removed because she just wouldn't work with the current storyline. She was the most sensible of the group and would never have agreed to working with Wolfram and Hart.

Angel and Fred and kind of naive. (Fred more than Angel, obviously.)

Gunn knows better, but is pissed off at the status quo and not really thinking things through.

Welsey has touched the darkness before and sort of come back and done good out of it and thinks he can push it a little bit more. He'll probably have the most reservations, though.

God knows what Lorne is thinking. He didn't really discuss his reasoning. I think he just doesn't appreciate what they've gotten in to.

Cordelia, however, would have been very much against this and likely been able to talk some of the others out of it, so they had to keep her out of the picture for the time being.

Here's hoping they bring her back later and if they don't have the money to keep her on Angel, put her on the new spin-off. Amybe somethign where she, Andrew and Faith are roomates with hilarious results.

[> Forget bringing back Conner! Let's change the home page to lobby for Cordy's return! -- Kizzmet, 08:38:20 08/17/03 Sun


[> [> I second that motion... -- ZachsMind, 06:31:32 08/18/03 Mon

At the risk of mildly annoying Masq, I think it's far more important to see Cordy returned to the show on some recurring basis than it is to see Connor return. In fact, if they could just leave Connor where he is, I think that's the best sense of closure one could warrant for the character. Angel did all he could under the circumstances to be a good father, but now his involvement with W&H has meaning, because so long as Angel keeps that firm happy, Connor is assured a place living a relatively normal existence. Anger the "Partners" and Connor's life may take a serious turn.

Similar things are possible with Cordelia. In essence, W&H has them both hostage and it's Angel's actions through season five which insure or endanger their safety. The difference here between Connor and Cordy is that we saw closure with Connor in the final scene. Provided Angel behaves himself and is a good lad, Connor is guaranteed a life free from the knowledge of his origins and childhood. He has an illusion of normality kind of similar to that of Dawn's, relatively speaking. It's an illusion of happiness, but whose to say a happy lie is worse than a sad reality?

However, the reality of Cordy is that she's a vegetable. Personally I believe that's because the lights may be on but no one's home, and *our* Cordy is still locked up in that gilded cage Skip left her in. It can be discovered that the only one with the 'keys' to Cordy was Skip, and when Angel killed Skip he killed any chance to get the real Cordy back in her physical body. Who was in that body for much of season four? From Las Vegas on, I surmise it was Jasmine.

They CAN write out any chance of Charisma Carpenter returning, saying that her physical body was destroyed by W&H in attempts to get at Doyle's heartlight. That'd be mean though. Perhaps Carpenter has somehow developed bad blood among the writers. If she hasn't, I see no reason why they can't come to some kind of arrangement.

Connor hasn't been with the series since the beginning. Cordy has. It's more imperative that some sense of closure be offered for the character of Cordelia. Connor's already had a sense of closure. Reintroducing him now would start a whole new thing and I for one have seen enough of Connor.

[> [> [> Third... -- Nino, 09:08:37 08/18/03 Mon


[> [> Please, NO!!! -- Q, 10:13:31 08/18/03 Mon

I would vote AGAINST that! Cordelia quickly became the most obnoxious, cheesy, badly written, character in Jossverse HISTORY in the last few seasons. Hearing that she wouldn't be back is all that has kept me excited about a new season. Don't (re) soil the show with requests for the return of THE WORST aspect of Ats for the last 2 seasons! Please!

[> [> [> Oh piffle. -- ZachsMind, 13:50:21 08/18/03 Mon

I'm recommending not only a return of Cordelia, but a return of the Cordelia we knew prior to the whole Evil Cordy storyline. Perhaps prior to her receipt of Doyle's little gift. Say W&H are able to somehow extract it from Cordy, Cordy wakes back up and the last thing she remembers is Doyle kissing her. The last three years a total blank. She coulda been a rat in a cage for all she knows - total blank. Then the writers could try evolving her again, but getting it right by this time. Cordy shouldn't be half demon any more than Xander should be a Slayer. Cordy's a Zeppo. Always has been. The writers screwed her up, and it's the fans and the talent that suffers.

[> [> [> [> I think I love you... -- Nino, 18:20:57 08/18/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> Double piffle. -- KdS, 06:15:14 08/19/03 Tue

Sorry, but for me Cordy was a caricature who didn't get interesting until she started developing morals post-To Shanshu.

I must admit, my favourite period was the S2-Birthday one, because of her ability to switch between waspishness and compassion when either were needed, but the hatred for her in the latter half of S3 boils down to two things which were the fault of execution rather than concept. Firstly, she was very badly written in her reintroduction, Double or Nothing (my personal W.E.E.), and secondly there was the deus ex machina introduction of her powers to solve plot problems.

And recent Whedon interviews state unambiguously that the portrayal of Cordy from City Of... to Birthday was his attempt to do what he didn't manage to in the original BtVS movie - to show how somebody can be driven by circumstance from shallow self-centeredness to heroism. Pity that they couldn't decide to do anything with her after that arc was complete except turn her evil...

[> [> [> [> [> Piffle cubed? -- matching mole, 12:26:02 08/19/03 Tue

IMHO the BtVS Cordelia was a brilliant if somewhat limited creation. However it was clear by the end of the third season that she had no further role on the series other than to lapse back into the Scooby's social nemesis.

However her move to AtS allowed ME to do something different with her and boy did they ever. I consider the evolution of the character from the series beginning to 'Birthday' to among the most subtle and effective on either series.

However what happened to her after 'Birthday' was perhaps the worst character arc in ME history.

So we have the best and the worst. As much as I love Queen C I can't see a very compelling case for bringing her back. The ship has sailed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's easy to get old Cordy back. Spike just calls her a b!tch. -- ZachsMind, 16:56:19 08/19/03 Tue


[> Good article. Semi-reassuring -- Masq, 09:06:03 08/17/03 Sun

I hope CC does get a chance to do closure on Cordy at some point.

[> Thanks -- Ray, 01:29:33 08/16/03 Sat

I thought she had chosen to leave, but it sounds like they just fired her. Too bad, she'll be missed.

[> Must... resist... spoilers... -- Tyreseus, 19:47:08 08/18/03 Mon

I'm not saying that CC's departure or some of the other well-publicized cast changes are exactly spoilers anymore, but this kind of article almost sends me running to the spoiler board to find out more.

But on the "Cordelia closure" subject, I wonder if our favorite (now out of work) Zeppo could make a guest appearance for this purpose? I feel that we need a bit more post-Anya closure from Xander and maybe the way to do that is a final meeting between Cordelia and Xander. Have the two even spoken to each other since high school? They left on good enough terms, maybe they've both grown to the point where they can find happiness (although not true love) together. Any other X/C shippers out there think it'll work?

[> [> Oh, and... -- Tyreseus, 19:48:57 08/18/03 Mon

Cordelia's half demon now, right? That makes her perfect for Xander.

[> [> [> I don't know... -- Masq, 19:58:47 08/18/03 Mon

If I were Cordelia, I'd want to get away from anything and everything supernatural, and anything that reminded me of it. Like it betrayed me or something.

And that includes Xander, who may be a Zeppo, but was part of her supernatural high school experience and remains a member of the Slayers' (plural!) team.

New dinosaur discovered in India -- Sophist, 07:40:54 08/16/03 Sat

For your educational fun and secret amusement, I report the discovery of a new dinosaur species in India this past week. Named Rajasaurus narmadensis, or "regal dinosaur of the Narmada", it is described as horned and carnivorous. Figures. :)

[> Link -- Darby, 09:18:37 08/16/03 Sat

National Geographic - 5 pictures.

[> Reading the name, I assume it's a fire-breather too -- Random, 10:12:10 08/16/03 Sat


[> Oh, you hush, you men, you! -- dub ;o), 11:16:23 08/16/03 Sat


[> What's the Narmada? -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:33:54 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> Heh. Good question. -- Sophist, 14:10:05 08/16/03 Sat

A quick Google gives this information:

The Narmada is one of the great rivers of our country. It flows through Gujarat and Central India. ...

This river starts in the centre of India and flows west. This river is also called Reva. The word Reva means noisy. ...

Narmada was originally a goddess. She was born from the body of God Siva. She prayed to Siva. Siva blessed her and said, "May you become a holy river, and may your waters always be full! Goddess Narmada was slim and beautiful. Gods and demons wanted to marry her, But she ran this way and that and dodged them. They chased her wherever she went.

When they were very near, she would disappear. That is why she was called Narmada. The word means one who is playful.

There may be other meanings as well.

[> [> [> This is the coolest! -- Rahael, 08:17:17 08/17/03 Sun

Oh, and one of the other versions of the myth is that the goddess Narmada emerged from the beauty of Siva meditating.

The other Gods, on seeing her, chased her - she in her panic jumped over a cliff, and the Gods, feeling sorry for what they had done, turned her into a river so that she wouldn't die when she hit the ground.

But I like 'playful' too. That's one of my favourite words to describe works of art I particularly like!

[> [> [> After that, the goddess ran off with a 17th-century French swordsman -- Masq, 14:16:46 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> [> [> Heehee! -- Dead Soul, 23:48:32 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> [> [> LOL! -- Arethusa, 14:46:24 08/16/03 Sat


[> [> [> [> Oh, that's good!! LOL!!! -- LittleBit, 15:52:46 08/16/03 Sat


Angel's Curse -- manwitch, 07:47:11 08/16/03 Sat

The Who is Angel thread below is interesting me. But I find I am confused about some basic things, namely the curse itself and how it works or exists or whatever.

Here's how I understand it. (But I haven't seen every episode of Angel, so maybe I'm wrong).

1. Angelus was cursed by gypsies. Angel was not, Liam was not, the soul itself was not. Angelus was.

2. That curse involved the restoration of "his" soul. The idea is that the creature walking around is still Angelus but now has a conscience and cares about all the acts that he, Angelus, has perpetrated. Hence the creation of a new, but clearly related moniker, Angel. So that's all well and good so far. But here, mass wacky confusion ensues. By "restoration" do they mean the original soul that was lost when Liam became a vampire? Is it Liam's soul that inhabits Angelus? Or is there simply a soul repository, like the jacket rack at a nice restuarant, and restoring simply means putting one on that fits? Will any soul do? Or are they distinct?

3. And the curse also involved the losing of that soul if ever for one second Angelus ceased to be haunted by the deeds of his past. At a symbolic level this is a no-brainer, since if Angelus is not haunted by his conscience then he doesn't have it. So he's just Angelus again. In terms of the gypsy motivation its a little more like bad city planning. Because it can only hurt other innocent third parties, like Buffy and Giles. Unless Angelus knows that he can't ever sidestep his conscience for even a second. In which case, he must seek to be remorseful at all times and must recognize that he is not worthy to be happy, that it is not right that he be happy. Is there any conclusive evidence that Angel (Angelus haunted) knew this? Did Angel (Angelus cursed with a soul) know what would happen with Buffy? I grant that she's worth losing your soul for, but its not clear to me that Angel (Angelus with a conscience) knew that was happening.

4. Angelus is relieved of his soul by his happiness with Buffy. He is now simply what he is again.

5. Willow "recurses" Angelus. Again it is Angelus that is cursed, not Angel, not Liam, not the soul. But is it the same curse? The magic used to restore his soul originally is lost. Jenny Calendar says that the kind of magic used to restore his soul is lost even to her people. But she attempts to create something. It seems to use translation technology of some kind, suggesting that she has some kind of text that exists in a lost language. But that is total speculation on my part. Willow and Buffy find whatever it was. Willow clearly has to finish working it out. So what they end up with is not the same as what the gypsy woman originally did. Probability is way against it. Plus, I believe that in listening to them, they are in fact different. And here more confusion ensues. Does Willow include the "happiness clause" when she curses Angel?

6. Angel is unsouled by means of magic, not by a moment of happiness.

7. His soul is kept in a jar which is stolen, and there seems to be some concern that only that soul is the soul for Angelus and if it is lost there is no substitute.

8. Willow arrives and resouls Angel again. Again, does she include the happiness part. Or is she just putting a soul back in?

I do not know the answers to these questions. While I think there might be consensus on these eight items, there is still clearly a lot of ambiguity circling around them. For example, to me, Angel, the Angel that we know and, er, watch occassionally, doesn't come into existence until Whistler. The curse isn't what produces the incarnation we think of as Angel. That is the result of a FREE choice (I work in marketing, "FREE" must always be all caps, bold red if possible, and big, can you make it bigger? In fact, can you make everything on the page bigger? It all needs to pop! Why don't we just make the page size smaller?). I'm sorry. The Angel we are familiar with is the result of a free choice, under pressure from Whistler and inspired by Buffy. But the Gypsy's don't force Angel to do good. They force him to feel bad. Totally different things. But that's just my interpretation of the curse. I don't see them as cursing him with a desire to do good or make amends. They just want him to feel like crap. So a question to consider might be whether or not seeking to atone is in fact flying in the face of the gypsy curse by seeking to be worthy of happiness? They set up an extra clause precisely to discourage this sort of do-gooding behavior. Or perhaps, as long as it is atonement there is lingering conscience, and it is therefore acceptable. Whereas if he simply aspires to do good in the world, then he is flying in the face of the curse, doing something for the sake of it rather than out of concern for past misdeeds?

Anyways, am I in the ballpark about the curse, and can any of you answer my lingering questions?

[> Maybe some Joss Whedon quotes will help? -- s'kat, 21:45:13 08/16/03 Sat

From most recent to least recent, regarding who Angel is and his whole curse thing from the mouth of the creator:

1."Angel was at full-tilt evil, that just got clothes lined by those Gypsies and spent 100 years going, 'Ah yah aha hah,' trying to figure it out -- what it was he had to do."
Joss at Comic-Con July 2003

2."Redemption has become one of the most important themes in my work and it really did start with Angel. I would say probably with the episode "Amends," but even with the character itself and the concept of the spin-off was about redemption. It was about addiction and how you get through that and come out the other side, how you redeem yourself from a terrible life. I do actually work with a number of reformed addicts, if thatís what you call them. I call them drunks. But my point is a good number of people that are most close to me creatively have lived that life, and it informs their work. I never have, and so Iím not sure why it is that redemption is so fascinating to me."
Joss regarding what Redemption means in NYTimes 10 Questions article May 2003

". I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybodyís, and possibly more so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I donít think Clem has a soul, but heís certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didnít exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because he couldnít make the connection -- the difference between their dominance games and actual rape.

With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a little vague, butÖ can I say that I believe in the soul? I donít know that I can. Itís a beautiful concept, as is resurrection and a lot of other things we have on the show that Iím not really sure I can explain and I certainly donít believe in. It does fall prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens. "
What a soul means to Whedon in NYTimes Article 10 questions
May 2003 on Angel and Spike

"Shivers: What was your approach to Angel's vampirism and fitting it into the theme of the show?
Whedon: Well, he'd a good vampire. He's a good guy. He doesn't bit people anymore. The fact that he's a vampire informs the show enormously. Thematically, the show is all about that terrible isolation. Angel is trying to redeem himself. He is trying to reclaim his humanity, and he's trying to become a person. Even though, on some level he's not. And that deals with everybody's feeling that everyone else is normal and the same, it's just me that;s different. In terms of the show, it kind of makes him a little bit of this superhero. It's a liability because he's not getting a lot of day work, but at the same time he is stronger and faster and harder to kill then other people. So yes, it's very much a part of it."
From Shivers Magazine:Whedon, Writing and Arithmetic
by Joe Mauceri
Article appeared in the Shivers, May 2000

I think we're overanalyzing this. For what it's worth I think the curse is a plot device/contrivance that Whedon came up with in Season 1 Btvs in order to have a murky good vampi