August 2003 posts

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What happened to "The art of not Being Seen" thread on OoMOoS? -- sdev, 09:35:09 08/20/03 Wed

that disappeared way too fast.

[> I'll bring it back -- Masqy, the Voynak Slayer, 09:54:19 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> TY, ZachsMind did a great job -- sdev, 10:20:31 08/20/03 Wed

[> Re: What happened to "The art of not Being Seen" thread on OoMOoS? -- ZachsMind, 09:58:13 08/20/03 Wed

[Masq's "I'll bring it back" statement must have been posted at the same exact moment I wrote & tried to post the following, cuz I got an error message the first time I tried. If the old thread's still around when I'm finished, I'll post my findings regarding this episode to that old thread.]

It just wasn't a popular thread. So it scrolled off the front page. These things happen. I tried putting every link I could find pertinent to the episode in one place to make it easier for us to discuss it. Guess it just didn't interest people. I'm working on trying to add thoughts about the episode in a new thread (originally it was gonna be to the old thread, but it's gone), but I don't want to repeat what's come before me. I'm wondering if there's really anything more to say. I did notice that
Masq's entry in her website for The Invisible Girl Episode doesn't cover all the bases.

Metaphysics - 1 paragraph
Good - nothing
Evil combined with Moral Ambiguity - 3 paragraphs
Philosophies - nothing
Ethics - nothing

So I am working on perhaps expanding that a bit. Not intended to substitute what she's already done, but perhaps add to it. Maybe. Other priorities have just gotten in the way though, so it'll take longer than I thought. No rush. We got all week, don't we?

[> [> All my season 1 episode analyses are too thin -- Masq, 12:03:56 08/20/03 Wed

Mainly because they were done first, before I knew what my site would eventually get into, and they were also done in retrospect, when the episodes were no longer fresh in my mind.

I do intend to beef them up a bit. So bring on the philosophical goodness!

Wishing JM a very happy birthday! -- Cheryl, 10:00:50 08/20/03 Wed

It was even mentioned in USAToday.

[> Angelcakes and assorted pastries for all! -- ponygirl, 11:48:32 08/20/03 Wed

[> 15 year difference between james and sarah? -- frisby, 14:01:09 08/20/03 Wed

i find it interesting that james and sarah are 15 years apart (41 and 26) -- who would have thought?

my wife and i are also 15 years apart, and her parents were 15 years apart, and her paternal grandparents were 15 years apart also

and all three of those marriages have worked out well

i wonder how sarah and freddie will do

and will james ever marry?


[> [> marrying JM -- purplegrrl, 14:44:15 08/20/03 Wed

The line forms behind me girls!


[> [> [> Re: marrying JM -- Cheryl, 14:46:55 08/20/03 Wed

He's already been married and divorced once, so I wonder how anxious he is to try again.

[> [> [> isn't he gay? -- tam, 20:33:48 08/20/03 Wed

i thought he was gay. maybe soon in some states he will be able to marry!

[> [> [> [> Re: isn't he gay? -- LittleBit, 21:33:22 08/20/03 Wed

If O'Cailleagh was online he'd tell you, with a heart-felt sigh, that JM is defintely not gay.

[> [> [> [> [> Nope, Definitely not. -- s'kat, 10:39:07 08/21/03 Thu

If you want proof, go here: or see the current interview in SFX
August 2003 edition with James MArsters on the cover.
Where Marsters admits to having to overcome his own difficulties with the idea of kissing a guy in order to play a role in Venetian Heat. So definitely not gay.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope, Definitely not. -- d'Herblay, 15:10:46 08/21/03 Thu

Or, he's, you know, as good an actor in front of an interviewer as he is in front of a camera.

(I don't for even a minute think that James Marsters is gay; but won't it be fun to flip through Entertainment Weekly and read a rumor you had a hand in starting?)

[> [> [> [> Here's hopin'! --
Nino, 08:46:37 08/21/03 Thu

[> [> He's freakin' 41?!!!?!!? -- Seven, 14:53:37 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> [> You're only as old as you feel, nibblet. -- ZachsMind, 15:01:43 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Amen!! -- purplegrrl, 15:05:50 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Actually, You're only as old as the woman you feel -- Doug, 15:37:06 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> I'll give that an Amen -- Jay (who never really prays but does prey), 20:52:38 08/20/03 Wed

Buffy in "Helpless" -- Rosie, 15:02:40 08/20/03 Wed

I just watched "Helpless" on the F/X channel recently. And it bugs me. Why was Buffy portrayed as "weak" once she lost her Slayer powers? She still was physically fit (this is an ex-cheerleader, we're talking about) and she had nearly three years experience in martial arts. Surely she could have at least prepare to defend herself against possible mortal attackers, instead of cringing away?

[> Re: Buffy in "Helpless" -- ZachsMind, 15:09:11 08/20/03 Wed

It's a couple things. First, she was so used to feeling the way she did, that to even have her power halved would make her feel 'weak' in comparison. Secondly, in this particular episode, the drugs that were used on her made her weaker than the average person. Third, she wasn't changing her behavior. Her motor coordination skills were the same on a neurological level, but her musculature was reacting way below par. So she'd tell herself to punch someone and her fist just wouldn't connect like she was used to, causing her to get even more out of whack each time she tried, because the new sensory input was belying what her neurological system had grown accustomed to expecting. Fourth, try having nine tenths of your strength and agility removed from you temporarily, and see if you don't instinctively cringe at trouble.

[> [> Agreed. Can't forget Buffy's mind, either. -- HonorH, 15:14:41 08/20/03 Wed

That sudden drop in strength made Buffy wonder what was wrong with her, and as we've seen, when Buffy's not mentally at the top of her game, even being the Slayer barely saves her. In this case, physically, she was weaker than normal, and mentally, she was way down there--and even non-supernatural threats were enough to make her afraid.

[> [> [> This is part of what makes the show incredible. -- ZachsMind, 16:36:29 08/20/03 Wed

Buffy's a superhero. She's got the physical prowess of ten men, but even when she does, her weakness is her self-confidence. If she doesn't believe in herself she's weaker than a kitten. It's Buffy's internal monologue that makes her so intriguing. We know she's gonna win. We don't know if she believes she's gonna win, and for some reason that becomes more important. She doesn't win until she believes she will.

[> [> agree, especially... -- anom, 19:01:45 08/20/03 Wed

...that she wasn't just reduced to normal strength. This wasn't a spell that simply removed her Slayer strength & coordination. Giles injected her w/muscle relaxants & adrenaline suppressors, which would make her strength well below normal. If she couldn't pull the guy trying to hit on Cordelia away but Cordelia could, that's gotta tell you something!

But I wouldn't go as far as saying, "If she doesn't believe in herself she's weaker than a kitten" (below in this thread). If it looks that way, it's only because she's up against super-strong opponents. I think she could've pulled Whosis away from Cordelia even if her confidence was shaken if she'd been at full Slayer strength.

Wesley vs Amanda --
JBone, 20:07:42 08/20/03 Wed

Cuz that's what I did. I stuck up for myself. The other day after class, I jumped him in the parking lot, and I slammed his stupid-ass insecure face right into the pavement!

Post your comments at the voting site (Showtime), here, or email them to me. I really doubt I'll get yesterday's results up tonight. But Kate wins, if you're worried about it. It's the final match of round one!

Rob, did you get my email earlier this week about tiebreakers next week?

[> This will not be pretty. Not sure I want to watch. -- cjl, 20:29:24 08/20/03 Wed

OK, Amanda is (sob--was) a Slayer, but Wesley is a former Watcher who has plumbed the shadowy depths of his psyche, and he knows a thousand different ways to kill a Slayer (physical and psychological)--none of them pleasant. Amanda may have a rough-and-tumble, coltish spirit, but she's far too innocent and inexperienced to stand up to the likes of Dark Wes.

[> [> I fear you're right. -- HonorH, 20:40:35 08/20/03 Wed

It ain't gonna be pretty, but when it's all over, Wesley will be the one standing. Poor Amanda--I liked her.

[> [> [> I'd give Amanda the advantage, actually -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:58:52 08/20/03 Wed

It's all a question of territory. If they're in LA, Amanda will kick his ass because, there, Slayers and vampires can jump 20 ft straight up, perform Matrix style martial arts, and, when fighting gun weilding opponents, knock all of them unconscious with one spinning kick. If they're in Sunnydale, Amanda will still win, because Welsey will instantly turn into a cartoonish loser.

[> [> [> [> LOL! I'm still voting for Wes, though -- d'Herblay, 21:36:59 08/20/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Here, here. -- deeva, 09:00:08 08/21/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Hehehe, how true, Finn!! -- Rahael, 10:16:51 08/21/03 Thu

[> Re: Wesley vs Amanda -- ApOpHiS, 20:54:48 08/20/03 Wed

Amanda? What's she even doing here? Would she even bother to show up to the fight? Amanda was a teenage girl capable of the occasional burst of violence when pushed far enough. She gained all the power of the Slayer just in time to get killed despite it. She was a Slayer for 10 minutes; then she was meat. Wesley, on the other hand, has sent men to their deaths, beaten one of his friends unconscious, locked a woman in a closet for months, and stabbed an innocent junkie all in the name of the Greater Good. Wesley is a viscious, focused, hardcore warrior; Amanda was a nerdy little girl who lived in interesting times. If she's smart, she'll stay home and play D&D.

[> Not necessary- but -- Tchaikovsky, 01:08:56 08/21/03 Thu

I vote for Wesley.


[> Oh dear... -- KdS, 03:29:34 08/21/03 Thu

Look at Amanda's sweet nature, enthusiasm and coltish looks. Only an utterly vicious, cold-blooded bastard could bring himself to give her a beating.

WES: Present!

Thump. Thump. Thump.

[> [> Re: Oh dear... -- Malandanza, 10:07:10 08/21/03 Thu

"Look at Amanda's sweet nature, enthusiasm and coltish looks. Only an utterly vicious, cold-blooded bastard could bring himself to give her a beating."

You forget that the "head boy's" defining characteristic has always been his servility. Look at the freedom he gave Justine on the ship -- he wanted her to take over and was disappointed that she didn't challenge his "authority".

I have no doubt that Wesley's experience will give him an initial edge, but Amanda is a bright girl -- she'll watch and learn. She'll take Buffy's bad counseling advice to heart and, in the end, Wesley wil be the one with the bucket (and loving every minute of it).

[> [> [> *'scuse* me?? -- anom, 20:53:06 08/21/03 Thu

"Look at the freedom he gave Justine on the ship -- he wanted her to take over and was disappointed that she didn't challenge his 'authority'."

He let her have the run of the ship because he wasn't worried about her taking over. Picking up that huge wrench (or whatever it was) to swing at his head wasn't an attempt to challenge his authority? But all it took to end it was his quiet, almost off-handed threat to take the bucket away. That told her he knew what she was trying & how thoroughly in control he was of her life (yuck). The look on her face as she lets the wrench drop shows how defeated she was--not only then, w/Wesley, but going back as far as when she left Holtz' knife pinning her hand to the table.

As for Wesley's "servility," I'd say his character development has been taking him in the other direction for a long time. You could say (well, given the above, you probably wouldn't...) it started in Guise Will Be Guise, in the Pylea arc, or after Forgiveness, but I haven't seen Wesley being servile for a long time, unless you count Spin the Bottle, which took him straight back to his "head boy" days but didn't seem to have any aftereffects in that respect, or the early part of the Jasmine arc, in which everyone was willing to serve her regardless of individual personality. He came back to AI on his own terms & has acted independently of them when it suited him. I wouldn't call that servility.

How this affects his chances against Amanda I have no idea--I just couldn't let that comment go unchallenged!

[> Gyads, JBone! -- HonorH, 15:34:56 08/21/03 Thu

I just took a look at your comment on the Faith/Kennedy matchup (in Faith's motel room): "Faith lays a licking on Kennedy, but Kennedy doesn't take it lying down." Femslash much?

[> [> I was wondering if anyone read those comments -- Jay, 16:23:24 08/21/03 Thu

[> yesterday's results are up now -- Jay, 17:12:42 08/21/03 Thu


[> Amanda -- MaeveRigan, 17:49:17 08/21/03 Thu

Not that anyone cares, but even potential Amanda was pretty tough. Slayer Amanda could give Wesley a very hard time, especially if the real contest is: can Wesley do the Watcher thing right this time? He's learned a lot, but I'm betting Amanda will give him the slip. Oops!

[> [> Hey, I care. -- Jay, 19:29:25 08/21/03 Thu

I care what all the comment makers have to say. And if you're on a tiebreaker council, well, then I care even a little bit more. To paraphrase Fraiser Crane on a show that I care nothing about, "I'm here, and I'm listening."

[> [> [> Re: Hey, I care. -- MaeveRigan, 18:42:58 08/22/03 Fri

Thanks! But I'm still grumpy because Wesley won this round in a landslide. ;-)

I so need an evil alter ego.

[> [> [> [> You called? -- Malevolencia, 12:53:28 08/24/03 Sun

Just get out of the body and give me some room!

[> Ack! I missed the voting! -- Scroll, 08:55:07 08/22/03 Fri

How did Wes do? Cuz I wanna put down a vote for my favourite character, that ass-kicking, prophetic scroll-reading, baby-kidnapping, psychologically damaged, nerd-turned-rogue demon hunter ex-Watcher. Pretty please, JBone? One more vote for me? *big anime eyes*

[> [> Not that your vote isn't important... -- Tchaikovsky, 12:17:30 08/22/03 Fri

But Wes vs Amanda was possibly the most one-sided contest of the entire first round. So don't worry.


[> [> Wesley v Amanda results up now -- Jay, 17:32:27 08/22/03 Fri


As for your request for a late vote, let's see. I've accepted late comments before, as long as I caught them. I may have missed a few. I've accepted early tiebreaker votes before. In fact, I may start emailing the week's schedule to the Council on duty Sunday nights just to get their tiebreaker votes that week done all at once. They would have to do their own regular voting during the week unless they inform me otherwise.

Where was I? Ah yes, late voting. I'm very hesitant to start accepting late votes. Each match is up approximately 24 hours and I really don't want voters to be able to vote twice. It's hard enough to keep a lid on those who would cheat, I would hate to give them a few more chances to. This is nothing about you, but if I start, then I'd have to entertain them from everyone.

If I'm wrong about this, I'll listen to arguments from anyone who wants to do this. But this is where my head is on the subject right now, and I want you to know where I'm coming from.

[> Some genuinely interesting round two battles coming up.... -- cjl, 10:31:21 08/22/03 Fri

Anya vs. Lorne
Joyce vs. Gunn
Oz vs. Fred
Dawn vs. Jasmine

In these four contests, we have a face-off between a prominent and popular BtVS character vs. an equal-or-higher prominence AtS character. I have no idea who is going to win any of these. (I have my hunches, but won't go into them right now.) Some people on the board might raise an eyebrow at the inclusion of Dawn vs. Jasmine in the "too close to call" category, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em. These four should be a good gauge of AtS' popularity as compared to the mother show. If the AtS characters split or win three out of four, Joss should be very happy.

Connor vs. Lilah

AtS only here. I think Lilah's popularity is a given, but let's see how deep Connor's support runs on this board.

Darla vs. Dru

Either Angel's worst nightmare or his wettest dream. Who's got the oil?

Wes vs. Mayor Wilkins

My favorite contest in round 2. If anybody can take Tricky Dick Wilkins down, it's Scruffy Wes.

I'll update my region-by-region handicaps when round two starts up on Monday.

[> [> And don't forget... -- KdS, 11:17:46 08/22/03 Fri

Spike vs. Harmony.


[> [> [> Aw, do they have to fight? Those crazy kids are magic together. (Spoilery fanfic ahead) -- cjl, 14:15:15 08/22/03 Fri

[Ghost!Spike materializes near Harmony's desk at W&H. Harmony doesn't see him; she's hard at work, face buried in documents, the first time he's ever seen her work at anything--and he smiles at the thought. The smile fades; he can't put it off any longer.]

SPIKE (quietly): Harm.

HARMONY (not looking up): I'm looking! Whoever organized these files was, like, a chimp.

SPIKE (quietly): Harm, it's me.

HARMONY: And I'm supposed to put all of this together by Friday? You people are not paying me enough.

SPIKE (losing patience): HARM!

[Recognizing the tone of voice, Harmony jumps as if electrocuted. Her head whips around, and she stares at Spike, shocked beyond words.]

SPIKE: Sorry. Kind of easy to fall back on old habits.


[She tentatively reaches out to touch his chest; her hand passes straight through. She withdraws it quickly.]

SPIKE: I know. Sad state of affairs, innit?

HARMONY: B-but how? Why are you--

SPIKE: Let's just say, "it's a bit complicated." Leave it at that.

[Harmony nods slowly, still in shock, and sinks into her chair.]

HARMONY: I-it's good to see you. [A rare bird of a thought flies through her head. She frowns.] No. It's not good to see you. Did you come back from the dead to yell at me some more? Aren't you going to call me a stupid bint, a-and tell me you don't care about me, and tie me up and stake me?

[Spike puts his hand right through the desk. He waves it around, as if to say, "Hello? Ghost!"]

SPIKE: Not much good with the bondage right now, pet.

HARMONY: Oh. Right. Then why are you here?

SPIKE: Heard Hair Gel Boy offered you a job, and I just had to see you-- (reconsiders the rest of that sentence) I wanted to see you.

HARMONY (coldly): First time for everything.

SPIKE: Heh. That's not bad. Look, I'm just going to say what I've got to say, and let you go back to...whatever the hell you're doing. [Takes a deep simulated breath] I've gone through a couple of changes since the last time I saw you.

HARMONY: Well, obviously.

SPIKE: It's not just the ghost bit. Had a lot of time to think about things. About people. About how everybody's got dreams and feelings and you shouldn't have the right to treat them like garbage. About how you owe anybody who cares about you the common courtesy to tell them--

[Spike composes himself. Points to Harmony's desk.]

SPIKE: Check out your right-hand drawer. [Harmony looks confused.] Go on. Went through a lot of trouble for this.

[Harmony, puzzled, opens her right-hand desk drawer. She takes out a small, square box with a red bow on top.

SPIKE: Open it.

[Harmony strips off the bow, opens the box, and pulls out--a tiny replica of the Eiffel Tower. Harmony melts and looks up at Spike with newfound adoration.]

SPIKE: Now, don't get any ideas. The two of us as a couple was probably the worst idea I ever had in 120 years. Wasn't good for either one of us.

HARMONY (smiles; trying not to cry): Okay.

SPIKE: Just wanted to let you know that I was listening all those times. [Looks at the replica] You ever get to see the real thing?

HARMONY: Not yet. Maybe on my next vacation.

SPIKE: Right. Should let you get on with your work, then. [Starts to fade out]

HARMONY: Spike? Will I see you around the office?

SPIKE: I'll be around.

[Harmony sighs, wipes away a tear, and proudly places the Tower paperweight next to her nameplate on the desk.]

[> [> [> [> whole other kind of awww.... damn, he's good! ain't he good?! -- anom, 15:46:37 08/22/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Aw... -- KdS, 05:21:17 08/23/03 Sat

If souled Spike had behaved with such grace and generosity in the series as shown, I would have been less annoyed.

Drusilla's Love -- Claudia, 10:07:50 08/21/03 Thu

Many people seemed to believe that Spike was the only unsouled vampire capable of love. Yet, didn't the Judge demon in "Surprise" accused both Spike and Drusilla of being tainted with sparks of humanity?

And many seemed to believe that Drusilla turned to Angeleus in Season 2, because deep down, she preferred her sire's strength and evil nature. Yet, that flashback in Season 5's "Fool For Love" seemed to hint that the real reason Drusilla turned to Angeleus, the chaos and fungus demons was due to her jealousy of Spike's growing feelings toward Buffy. That she saw early on that Spike was falling in love with the Slayer.

[> interesting --
Nino, 14:26:00 08/21/03 Thu

Yeah, that flashback in "FFL" has always interested me...Season 2 Buffy and Spike had a passionate hate for each other...sure, I suppose you could argue that there was a sexual tension between the two...but no more then you could argue there was sexual tension between Angel and Spike (here's hopin they explore that this season!). So I don't think ANYONE can say they saw Spike's obsession coming way back in season 2...but it makes sense that Drusilla would sense it, being the special girl she is.

It also works out well that in "Lover's Walk" (which chronologically occured after the "FFL" scene) where does Spike run after Dru dumps him? Right back to Sunnydale...

I don't think the writers could have predicted where Buffy and Spike would end up, but once they went with it, they worked it in well...

[> [> Re: interesting -- Antigone, 14:40:40 08/21/03 Thu

Some piece of information that might shed some light on early B/S: I read in a JM interview a while ago (sorry can't remember where; I'm pretty sure he also mentions it in an interview on the DVDs) that he had ALWAYS played his scenes with Buffy in a very sexual way, as if he was attracted to her. Remember the first time he sees her dancing at the Bronze in School Hard? It must have been the writers' intention to create sexual tension early on, at least on Spike's side, maybe to just make it fun and different, especially after they saw the great chemistry SMG and JM had in their scenes. Who knows? They probably never thought, however, that it would ever go as far as a Buffy/Spike relationship (Spike was after all supposed to die in Season 2), but it's interesting in hindsight. So yeah it does not seem too much a stretch for them to write, seasons later that "crazy Drusilla" had picked up on it early on. The writers kept it lose enough in early seasons (and JM played it ambiguously enough) that it worked ... at least for me!

[> [> [> Agreed. Spike always had the hots for the Slayer.. -- ZachsMind, 16:32:30 08/21/03 Thu

He may not have been consciously aware of it early on, but in a sick and twisted way one can easily see this scene as Spike's idea of flirting.

"The last Slayer I killed... she begged for her life. You don't strike me as the begging kind..."

This, believe it or not, is a backhanded compliment.

Spike wasn't consciously aware that he had a thing for the Slayer until two years later thanks to a disturbing dream he had, and when he did figure it out, it was worse than most any torment hell could have devised for him. To feel your heart slip away and toward your most bitter enemy.

But we learn for certain why three years after this, close to the end.

"When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are."

He fell for her despite himself. Objectively, in his own strange way, unconditionally, and later when she offers the words back to him, and he knows she doesn't mean them, he appreciates the sentiment and realizes she doesn't have to love him back the way he loves her. It's not that kind of love. It is perhaps the first time in his life when he's figured it out. That lass he used to write bad poetry for centuries ago, the one who spurned his advances, just before Drusilla turned him? That was him loving a woman and trying to get her to love him back through his poetry. He wanted to be able to show her the love in his heart and get it reciprocated.

Just before he died.. again.. as Buffy burned there with him briefly, he finally got it. She doesn't have to love him back. That's immaterial to the love he feels for her, which makes his love that much more genuine and sincere.

[> Agreed: Dru definitely loves -- Maura, 16:54:16 08/21/03 Thu

One of my favorite little Dru moments is at the end of "I Only Have Eyes for You," when Angelus is going on about being violated by love and Dru says, "Poor Angel(us?)" in this completely blank tone of voice. I read this as an indication that she just doesn't get what Angelus' problem is. The idea of being violated by love is utterly alien to her because love is a perfectly normal part of her life.

[> [> Re: Agreed: Dru definitely loves -- Claudia, 08:22:24 08/22/03 Fri

How interesting. Like Spike, Drusilla was capable of love. I've always wondered why she kept Spike around in late Season 2, while he was in a wheelchair, and saw to his comfort and need during that period. Why bother, when she had Angeleus? Because she still loved Spike. She could not abandon him, despite her infidelity and jealousy of his "alledged" feelings toward Buffy.

To Finn Mac Cool and heywhynot: re. using your S7 input in essay -- Maura, 16:47:56 08/21/03 Thu

I wanted to let you folks know that your very helpful commentary on Buffy's slayer activation plan has worked its way (paraphrased) into my S7 essay, which I'm hoping to submit for the Buffy conference in Tennessee next May.

So far, I've referred to you just as "fans I questioned," though I could cite you more specifically if you're interested.

Your commentary has ended up pretty much in the category of counter-arguments to my thesis (which needs to show that Buffy's plan was dumb). Therefore, I spend a certain amount of space arguing against your views.

This is all in one paragraph, so everything is gone over quite briefly, and there are certainly counter-arguments you could make to my arguments against your arguments, if you catch my drift. I've tried to keep it brief though, since my essay's running long.

If you're interested, I could post the paragraph that deals with this stuff.

I really appreciate your input; it's made my essay much stronger, I think. Thanks!

[> Re: To Finn Mac Cool and heywhynot: re. using your S7 input in essay -- heywhynot, 18:03:16 08/21/03 Thu

Love to read.

And that is what this place is for. Fun, good natured debating about Buffy.

[> [> Okay: argue away:) -- Maura, 10:51:05 08/23/03 Sat

All rightee. Below is the paragraph in question. This is my first draft, and it's very possible that the end product will end up milder in tone...

When I questioned fans about the reasoning behind Buffy's plan, I was presented with two theories attempting to justify it. One suggested that Buffy might have hoped to encounter the Uber-vamps in small groups and take them out a few at a time. This seems unlikely. In addition to the fact that the Scoobies never discuss this idea, Buffy's army appears to bring no provisions into the Hellmouth with them. They would certainly need food and water if they intended to stay, stalking the vamps, for several days.* If this were Buffy's plan, however, it would still be a poor one since she has no reason to assume that the Uber-vamps would be ranged in small groups or--for that matter--that the Hellmouth would provide sufficient cover for a guerrilla force. The other theory held that Buffy's sixth sense--her intuition--told her that her plan would work. This seems in keeping with her sudden revelation in "Chosen" that "We're gonna win" (7.22). Yet if this justification was the intention of the writers, it sends a concernful message. Should a leader's last minute "feeling" that a seemingly illogical gambit is going to bring them victory take precedence over reasoned discussion? Such a view of Buffy resembles blind faith more than an interactive trust in a strong, female, but still human leader.

*Elsewhere I computed that if we imagine a force of a million Ubbies (which seems entirely possible from what Buffy knows -- and therefore something she needs to plan for), if each slayer can kill 2 Ubbies per minute with few to no slayer casualties, it would take 30 odd slayers (the number given in 7.22) approximately 280 hours or 11 days of nonstop fighting to kill them all. (But I haven't checked my math over yet, and I suck at arithmetic. Anyone want to argue it? 276 was the exact figure I got for hours.)

[> [> [> Re: Okay: argue away:) -- heywhynot, 15:58:38 08/23/03 Sat

The sixth sense I would say was regarding the amulet and its potential. In regards to the battle itself.

My main argument was that the First was picking them off one by one, taking hope away while Its army was amassing, getting stronger and larger. The forces aligned against it were growing weaker (witness the number of wounded/dead after the trap). The only advantage was the Scythe, what they learned about it, and the amulet that was said to be important. They had for a brief time the element of surprise & hope.

It was not blind faith. Buffy presented her case, her plan. The SG and the SiTs had a choice whether they wanted to go through with the plan or not. It was not without thought. They sealed off the school as much as possible. If any Uber-Vamps did get out they would of been forced into the sunlight. Those that were not as strong but still relatively trained (well not Andrew) to fight were left to help make sure the Ubbers went into the sunlight. The army of Slayers was left to battle the vampires in the Hellmouth.

It was not an illogical gambit. What should they of done? Waited until the First's army was ready to overrun the Earth? When the SG & SiTs were further demoralized? They took the fight to the First instead of letting it run their lives.

Not sure about the million Ubbers. I would say it was on the order of ten thousand. The math becomes a lot smaller. So 30 slayers killing on average 2 vamps a minute (total 60 vamps/min), it would take them 167minutes to kill them all or almost three hours. Of course some slayers would died and then some Ubbers would die upstairs & probably even more when Willow was back up and going (which was not needed because of the amulet/Spike).

[> [> [> [> I had an even smaller estimate -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:47:22 08/23/03 Sat

To me it looked like roughly a thousand Turok-Han. That makes the numbers even more manageable. Also, Buffy knew virtually nothing about the dimension they were entering, so she really couldn't tell what the terrain would be like and how the Turok-Han would be arranged. There was as much reason to believe they'd be in several small groups as one big one. And, even when they were in one big group, only so many were able to be front and center against the Slayers at one time.

I admit Buffy's plan wasn't flawless, but it was the best plan they had. As they waited about, their numbers were only decreasing, and the First's army wasn't. If anything, it was probably getting larger. They had to act quickly, otherwise their odds would just get worse. The odds weren't terrific, but they were better than you seem to feel.

The bad guys had about a thousand Turok-Han.

The good guys had about 33 Slayers (30 potentials turned Slayer, Buffy, Faith, and Spike (whose strength rivals that of a Slayer)). This does leave them outnumbered about 30 to 1, though. But, there were a few extra bonuses for the good guys. They had human warriors in the school proper, who used the sunlight to their advantage (it appeared to me that somewhere between 10 and 20 Turok-Han went up the stairway, and it didn't look like any of them got away); they also had the Scythe, which significantly amplified Slayer abilities (in "End of Days" Buffy managed to kill three Turok-Han in about ten seconds once she had the Scythe in her hands). So, the odds are not quite as bad as 30 to 1, but still not that good. But, even if all of them die and the Turok-Han escape, there's still Angel's second front in LA as well as numerous other Slayers scattered throughout the world, which could conceivably kill most of the Turok-Han who escaped.

Lastly, after factoring all this in, there still remained two X-factors. The first was how the Turok-Han would be arranged, whether they'd be in one big group or several small groups of thirty or so (which they could handle). The second was what the amulet would do. The first X-factor was against them (though, even with the Turok-Han all gathered together, not all of them were able to reach the Slayers at the same time). The second was with them (the amulet worked very well). As long as one of the X-factors was on their side, they could win. Vampires-in-one-big-group-but-amulet-is-super-powerful? They win. Amulet-does-squat-but-vampires-are-in-groups-of-only-a-few-dozen? They still win.

[> [> [> [> [> Number of Turok-Han -- Maura, 13:18:54 08/24/03 Sun

Is there a shooting script for "Get It Done" or other official ME commentary available that indicates how many Turok-Han Buffy was supposed to have seen in her vision?

The transcript at Buffyworld says "thousands upon thousands," I believe.

Thanks for your comments. This point needs more clarification in my essay. I should rewatch GID too, which is hard since I don't have it on tape right now.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Number of Turok-Han -- heywhynot, 16:06:38 08/24/03 Sun

I never really understood what thousands upon thousands meant in terms of how many that it is. A couple refers to two, a few about 5, a baker's dozen, 13.

Isn't 10,000, thousands upon thousands?

I did not see anywhere near a million.

In addition to everything in terms of killing through Slaying. The amulet also was part of the plan. There were notes that the SG did research on the amulet that gave more reason to believe that the amulet was going to do something positive. They had the Scythe, the amulet and believed in themselves & a plan to surprise the army of the First. What would you of wanted the plan to be? They were not going to learn more of the amulet, WrH most likely had all the info. The First believed it was going to get the Scythe back & was going to pick off the SiTs & the SG one by one. Waiting would of been a greater chance of failure.

[> I'd love to argue your arguments against our counterarguments -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:46:44 08/21/03 Thu

I love to argue! My goal in life is to find an argument so air-tight that no one can counterargue. Probably won't happen here, but it's worth trying!

[> [> An air-tight argument... -- ZachsMind, 21:37:31 08/21/03 Thu

"My goal in life is to find an argument so air-tight that no one can counterargue.."

Joss Whedon is an exceptionally talented writer and director.

There. Air-tight enough for ya? I'd like to see someone counterargue that.

[> [> [> Joss Whedon is a pretentious uber-liberal -- Ravenous, 22:14:11 08/21/03 Thu

Joss: "Hey, I wrote an episode where nobody speaks for half of it! Never seen that before? That's cause I'm a genius, GENIUS!"

Ravenous: Joss, the reason no one's ever done that before is because it SUCKS! Drama must be about people INTERRACTING; making them stay silent simply limits the interaction. Was that really worth a bunch of lame jokes and some campy villains (what was with the suits?)

Joss: "What about 'Once More With Feeling'? First original musical for television! It's . . .

Ravenous: A ripoff. Xena did it first.

Joss: "Well, it's not really about each episode. Buffy transecends such a structure. It's about female empowerment! It has changed the world! Before Buffy, women were being raped down every alley! They were underpaid! And they all just gave in!"

Ravenous: Yeah, it's not like there weren't women's rights protesters in the 60's or anything. Oh, wait, there were! Face it, the only reason you made Buffy was to make a bunch of artsy-fartsy episodes so people would call you a genius and force your uber-liberal views down people's throats, painting yourself as some sort of . . .

*Suddenly, Ravenous is zapped with a taser*


Finn Mac Cool: What have I told you about posting?

Ravenous: I was just . . . discussing.

*Ravenous is tasered again*

*Finn turns to the people reading*

Finn Mac Cool: Sorry about Ravenous. He's my Misguided, Morally Ambiguous Alter-Ego. I tried killing him off a few months back, but Bachman took away my machete. So he's been lurking around, waiting to sneak a post in.

Ravenous: My cause will be heard!

*Ravenous receives yet another taser blast*

Ravenous: Ouch!

Joss: "Even the weakest episode of Buffy surpasses all other TV shows, ever!"

Finn Mac Cool (sigh): What did you do to Joss?

Ravenous: Nothing!

Finn Mac Cool: Really, you haven't noticed anything off about him?

Ravenous: Well . . . he is possessed. But just a little.

Finn Mac Cool: "Just a little"?

Ravenous: Yeah, I sorta summoned a Vusian demon.

Finn Mac Cool: Dear gods! Don't tell me that's . . .

Ravenous: The reverse of a Suvian demon. It turns the person it possesses into a pretentious jerk. But I'm just showing the world the real Joss! You can't tell the difference!

Joss: "There was no feminism before Buffy! Roseanne was a misogynistic piece of filth!"

Finn Mac Cool: Oh, I think you can a little.

*Picking up his taser once more, Finn knocks out the possessed Joss*

Finn Mac Cool: Great, now I've gotta find some way to depossess him. I've got half a mind to write you into a fanfic just so Miss H can torture you at OBAFU.

Ravenous: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! She's a psycho!

Finn Mac Cool: Tell me about it; I've still got mini-troll scars.

*Before Ravenous can plead again, Finn knocks him out with his taser*

Finn Mac Cool: Why couldn't I have a Super-Evil Alter-Ego like everyone else? They're a lot more fun to talk to.

(P.S. This post kinda ran away from me. Feel free to ignore it.)

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss Whedon is a pretentious uber-liberal -- Becaila, 01:00:49 08/22/03 Fri

That last post was a gem!

Thanks for brightening my flu day Ravenous/Finn/psycho-multiple-personality-guy! :)

[> [> [> [> Joss Whedon is a pretentious uber-liberal...and that's why Iove him! --
Nino, 13:49:46 08/22/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> can't argue w/that! @>) -- anom, 16:32:54 08/22/03 Fri

"Out of Mind, Out of Sight" Revisited -- Darby, 18:29:58 08/21/03 Thu

Of the early episodes, this might be the most obviously metaphorical. C'mon, we've all seen the blank looks from folks when you try to explain the show's metaphors - if you're searching for an example, this is one of the most blatant.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I usually start by rereading the script and checking the resumes of the guest cast. I'm feeling guilty, but appreciating the irony, to realize that
Clea Duvall" has been in several things I've seen, but I barely remember her and didn't connect her to Marcie.

On to the show...

Here's an example of the classroom subject relating to the show's theme: Shylock, the wronged outcast. And Cordelia's "Whine whine whine" interpretation is one way - okay, a pretty skewed way - of looking at Marcie.

Willow is wearing a "Scooby Doo" T-shirt.

Just the fact that Cordelia is conscientious enough to get help on a paper that isn't immediately due, willing to come in after school for help, is foreshadowing for what we'll discover about her "layers."

The shooting script has in us Marcie's POV more often than is evident, unless you know where the subtler spots are and are looking for them. Or maybe they decided not to do those, I can't decide.

The jock and the baseball bat is one of the most unconvincing scenes of violence ever. The bat stops well short of hitting his upper arm, and he slaps his own face.

Buffy's locker is dadaist fun - Michaelangelo's David in green briefs, photos of shoes and outstretched hands, a red long-stemmed rose, a slightly atypical smiley face, a picture of a red sports car, a sticker of He's a Demon on ? Wheels, a blow-up of what appears to be Millie the Model, and either she's got an antler, or there's a human finger glued inside the door.

Willow and Xander's reminiscing reinforces Buffy's outsider status, with her new friends that are old friends.

Mitch's Dad - even other lawyers call him the Beast. ME likes "The Beast" as an appellation. Maybe the X-Men should be doing the suing.

Harmony's trip down the stairs - now that was a decent stunt.

Interesting that in the crowd scene around Harmony, in the script Marcie says, "She deserved it," from the crowd, but in the aired version she just laughs from above.

There may be a vicious reaction to this suggestion, but SMG looks much nicer in knee-length skirts.

Missing line for Giles, when Buffy asks if he'd ever touched a ghost: "No I haven't. I've seen one, in Dartmoor. A murdered countess, very beautiful. She used to float along the foothills, moaning the most piteous - I've gone away again, haven't I?" And Willow: "It's funny when he does that."

Most of the script dialogue that didn't make it isn't worth remarking upon.

"This girl's sort of petty, for a god." Buffy hasn't read much mythology, sort of ironic for Miss Myth.

The group moves with no reason from assuming they're dealing with a student who can turn invisible (and back, presumably) to one who has to be "missing." Um, why?

The script has Buffy know that Cordelia will be working on the May Queen decorations (and later that's what the stage directions say they're doing), but she says "dress," which turns out to be true. But who works on a dress in an open room of the high school? Cordelia, I guess.

I never really made the connection between Angel's lack of reflection and Marcie's seeking a reflection in the people around her. And of course Angel is the ultimate outsider. With this and the reflection comment in Earshot, is this a metaphor for a vampire's lack of concern for its victim - there is no reflection of the humanity there?

The Giles-Angel vibe is very similar to middling Wesley-Angel. Is that part of the reason Wesley became competent?

A significant addition to the mythology - the Codex Giles seeks, which he will use in Prophecy Girl, is about "the Slayer's role in the End Times." But the end of what?

Does anyone know what the connection is between Vishnu and invisibility?

The flashback classroom scene: "Just because the story's about him doesn't mean he's the hero." Is this to be the show's template much later?

Unusual occurance - in one of the library scenes, Xander's scripted line is cut, so he gives one of Willow's.

Cordelia is the perfect character to accentuate the outsider status of the Scooby gang.

Heartfelt Cordelia - you can count those and have lots of fingers left.

Another missing Giles line: "...apparently my gift as a researcher is limited to supernatural rather then quantum phenomena. All those state functions, observables...Mathematics was never my strength."

The script has Buffy checking the hall and broom closet by swinging her arms, which makes more sense than the intense looks she actually uses.

Cordelia asks Buffy if she was popular in an "alternate universe," definite inadvertant foreshadowing for Miss Wish.

The Bronze is marked "closed for fumigation." Wonder what the effect those pesticides will have on our heroes with their years of exposure.

Marcie asks Buffy, "What are you gonna do, slay me?" So she has been around, unseen, during the Scooby adventures.

Buffy in slo-mo - why is the Bronze so breezy? Works, though.

And the scene out the open doorway - does that look anything like the nighttime scenery of the Bronze's alleys?

Closing scene - in the script, there's no indication of what sort of class Marcie is in - no book title, nothing to indicate that it's NOT rehabilitation. Hey, among peers, maybe they would "blossom" into visible teens again.

Sara comment - she doesn't like the episode, she was too Marcieish in her youth (before becoming the hot college babe), but the fact that the Scoobies were themselves part of the problem bothers her - were there fadier Marcies below her in the High School food chain?

Fair warning: In two weeks, it's gonna be The Movie revisited!!!

Don't make me feel like a Marcie on this!

[> Very impressive work.. (caution: ignorant talk of Vishnu ahead) -- ZachsMind, 21:31:03 08/21/03 Thu

That was a fun read! Thanks. Your input should be beneficial both to Masq and to Justin Leader as well. You may want to pass it on to the Annotated Buffy.

"Does anyone know what the connection is between Vishnu and invisibility?"

Strangely enough, when I did a search at for Vishnu, it only shows up once in the entire series. Granted, the Buffyverse Database is not 100% of the words, but it covers all the highlights. I doubt there's a time where Vishnu's mentioned that didn't catch. Not being a follower or worshipper of the eastern religions myself, that's about all I know, and I make no guarantee I speak with any actual accuracy. I did a few searches on the 'Net in an attempt to refresh my memory and give an answer here that was legitimate and informative. I hope I am successful, but an actual follower of Vishnu would be a more dependable source. Maybe someone out there reading this forum fits that description.

Interestingly, as I did some searches on the Web, I came across a link that has somehow been taken over by a Christian interest group and rerouted to '' which believes Vishnu to be a demon. I had to laugh at that. Vishnu might fit Whedon's definition of demon better than the Christian Right's definition, but then a zealot Christian believes a demon is anything other than the One True God, which someone out there worships. I wonder if that means "heart throbs" like Enrique Iglesias or Ashton Kutcher are demons? *smirk* Would that make Jennifer Lopez a demon, or is she just a golden calf?

I can't even keep track of the difference between buddhism and that hari krishna guy, or the dalai llama. I mean it all blurs in my head. Vishnu's one entity but is simultaneously many different incarnations. I don't understand how the people who do worship this keep track. Would be fun to see Joss Whedon write a movie in which Buffy & her friends meet Vishnu, and find themselves befriending one incarnation of Vishnu while fighting another and being tricked by a third. It'd probably cause an international incident, but it'd make for great entertainment.

According to my reading, around 1225 AD there was this guru named Padma Sambhava (aka Rinpoche) in Tibet. He and his followers were into Vishnu, and also predicted a time of chaos in the future. They may or may not of mentioned any cute blonde saving the universe by slaying vampires though. I dunno. I didn't check. =) They wrote books which they hid in valleys behind cloaks of invisibility. Sambhava predicted that in this future time of chaos, Tibetans would take refuge in hidden valleys deep in the mountains. It's believed he and his followers were incredibly adept at various forms of invisibility. They were probably just masters of camoflage, but some believe there were more mystical answers hidden in their books. Which are also hidden. Or lost altogether.

Perhaps also of interest there's allegedly a "Hermetic Brotherhood of Egypt" who are followers of Vishnu. It's an occult fraternity which has been around a very long time. They may have been the world's earliest recorded alchemists. They were into stuff like "the philosopher's stone" and things like that. They also professed to have perfected invisibility as an art form. Again, it's probably camoflage or other illusion stuff, but they were so good at it that witnesses believed the only answer to their prowess was magic.

In more general terms it's believed that some incarnations of Vishnu itself have the power of invisibility, and it's also believed by some that Vishnu can grant such powers on regular mortals, at its whim.

Of course, that and three bucks'll git you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

[> [> mysteries hidden from the uninitiate? -- MsGiles, 06:04:13 08/22/03 Fri

More Hinduism-lite follows, I'm afraid. I've found out much less then you, but thought I'd add my two pence worth

Bearing in mind that Hinduism is not a system of thought that insists upon a definitive text. Many different takes on the core ideologies are traditional.

Vishnu can be considered as part of a trio:
Brahma, the creator
Vishnu. the preserver
Siva, the destroyer

The universal moves in huge temporal cycles, with existence as we know it coming into being and then decaying into entropy, before being destroyed and recreated again. Brahma is the most remote of the deities, perhaps the most ultimate. Siva embodies the principles of life energy, sexual energy, the power of austere meditation. Perhaps he relates to the power of the Id. Vishnu is the most overtly supportive to human culture, and acts through his avatars, which have included the well-beloved Krishna and Rama, to limit the tendency of the world to entropy by maintaining rightness and balance. However, the extent to which he can do this is limited. 'Things fall apart'.

In relation to alchemy I found reference to neo-Platonism (Christian Platonism) combining with various esoteric cults, including Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Hermeticism, Gnosticism.

'Hermetic' refers to Hermes Trimegistus, identified with the Egyptian god Thoth. Hermetic beliefs are based on documents found in the 15thc dating from the 1st or 2ndc, and believed for a while to refer to the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians. These documents led to the belief that Greek philosophy was based on ancient Egyptian religion. This also became linked with the Jewish mystical tradition, the Kabbalah. Karl Jung became very interested in the symbolism of Hermetic alchemy, and Hermeticism also became incorporated into Freemasonry and many manifestions of western mysticism.

Vishnu is often mentioned in connection with Freemasonry and 'The Hermetic Art', in a vaguely mystical way, but I can find no obvious reason for this. Perhaps it is all too esoteric, and hidden from uninitiated eyes! I like your Tibetan monks, they seem the best link yet

[> [> [> Tibetan monks the missing link? -- ZachsMind, 18:32:35 08/22/03 Fri

One of my many pipe dream ideas for spinoff series features Oz, Riley, and a new character based loosely off Marcie from the first season, as well as others. The idea would be that Riley and his wife are part of a secret government agency, as we saw in As You Were, and they were on a case (they've achieved rather high status in this organization) when they recieve a change of orders that basically tells them to track down one of the many Slayers (ex-potentials) now prevalent in the world thanks to Buffy. Their orders are to kill her. Riley wants to bring the girl on board and make her a part of the team because he needs the help. However, his superiors misunderstand just what the Slayers are and simply believe them to be demons disguised as humans. It's a misunderstanding but Riley and his wife are given the ultimatum of either doing what they're told or getting kicked out of the secret organization. So they track the new slayer down and when they get there they find Oz and a couple friends of his that he's picked up along the way. They happened across the slayer before Riley got to her, and it becomes a mexican standoff basically, with Oz's gang (including a girl who can turn invisible) defending the slayer and Riley's government sponsored team trying to capture her. Some of his team members trying to kill her and he's having difficulty keeping the leadership role cuz some members think he's being treasonous not doing exactly what he's told to do and it just gets complicated and eventually, Riley & Oz come to an agreement but other government operatives won't have any of it so Riley & his wife are forced to go against the government in order to save the slayer.

...I was going somewhere with this. Uhm.. OH! Oz got control over his lycanthropy with the help of Tibetan monks, so if Tibetan monks also have knowledge about invisibility then he could find a cute babe to befriend him whose got that ability.

[> [> Hee hee, despite rumors to the contrary... -- Rob, 21:20:36 08/22/03 Fri

...Justin and I are actually 2 separate people. He just lets me use his webspace to host my annotated site, because, well, he wasn't doing much with it anyway...Just thought I should clarify, so people don't get confused. Rob's my real name, and the site's mine. But either way, thanks for the free publicity for The Annotated Buffy, ZM. :o)


[> Lest Darby think he's not appreciated -- CW, 07:29:01 08/22/03 Fri

I read these "revisited" posts religiously. What with board-wars, both out-of-town and in-town visitors, a non-BtVS-related writing project, and a mini-gasoline crisis here in Central Arizona, my Buffy analyzing has pretty much been turned off for the summer. But, I wanted to let Darby know I'm still here reading his efforts every week, and enjoying them.

[> [> Thanks -- Darby, 07:49:35 08/22/03 Fri

These last couple of episodes haven't left me much to garner comments from, so it's hard to tell.

Although I was surprised that my question last week - do females have the "underwearing at school" dreams? - got zero response. Maybe I shouldn't have used the "girl" designate, but I was trying to restrict the age range for the experience. But instances like that make me wonder if very few folks are reading. And then I wonder if I'm being annoying, or pedantic, or (worst of all) repetitive and boring, but I figure almost everyone here has those doubts now and again. 'Course, it could still mean that I'm all of those things...

I know this sounds like a pathetic cry for response, but there was no way to express my feelings without it sounding that's a Dawn moment (certain very legitimate responses are going to just sound whiney), I guess.

[> [> [> Response for Darby from intermittent lurker -- Abracapocus, 09:55:11 08/22/03 Fri

Darby, don't feel bad. Many of us are reading, but not consistently (Real Life Interference), and rarely posting. I love this board, and am heartily grateful for how much everyone's smart Buffy analysis and discussion enriches my life; but there is only so much time from my job that I can steal. :)

You noted:
I was surprised that my question last week - do females have the "underwearing at school" dreams? - got zero response.

For what it's worth: I, as a female, have had many dreams in which I'm not in my underwear, but naked. I think these didn't start until I was married, however (and out of High School).

I should explain. I am one of those benighted people who don't remember very many of their dreams. Normally if I remember a dream, it's because it occurred while I was sleeping only lightly, or on the way to waking up. Since I'm closer to consciousness during these dreams, my near-waking brain tends to react to them, which tends to change the content (so much for dream interpretation). Often, because my semi-conscious mind is reacting to what's going on, I end up waking myself up from these dreams (which makes them easier to remember, but also more disorienting).

Apropos to your query, part of that reaction sometimes includes interpolating into the dream my actual physical state at the time--i.e., I'm naked and/or not able to move well, since I'm in bed asleep (my husband and I just don't see the point of having clothes on when skin is so nice--apologies for TMI!). The "not able to move well" sequences can be pretty disturbing, if in the dream I'm trying hard to get away from something, or trying to get somewhere or help someone.

I don't remember having the "uh-oh, I'm naked" dreams when I was in High School, but public nudity became a regular element of my "anxiety dreams" when I was in Grad School (and married, and sleepin' nekkid). That, and the old saw about how there was some class in High School that I never finished so I didn't really graduate, or a University course I enrolled in but forgot about and didn't go to and now I'm in trouble, and so on. Heh.

So for me anyway, the naked dreams (the ones I remember, anyway) seem to come from my brain being partly aware of my physical state outside of the dream. And most of the naked dreams are also obvious anxiety dreams--I'm worried about something, feeling stressed or attacked or overwhelmed by things I'm supposed to do. Forwhat it's worth.

I don't know if this has anything to do with Buffy's "running for the bus naked" dream she told Wood about ("What bus?"). She obviously has quite a bit of stress to curl up with along with her insomnia, so her dreams would have to pack a pretty nasty punch (along with the rest of her life...).

I don't know much about formal psychological dream analysis. Insights, anyone? I'm sure the nakedness is often related to feeling exposed or inadequate or just not "dressed" enough to function well and be accepted. Stuff like that, huh?

"Would I knew a little more,
or very much less."
Dorothy Parker

[> [> [> [> This parallels Willow's dream -- Vickie, 10:58:03 08/22/03 Fri

No, not that dream. No Restless commentary here. I think it was in The Zeppo that Buffy and Willow are talking about the Hellmouth creature that appeared towards the end of Prophecy Girl. Willow says something like:

"One time I dreamed it was chasing me, while I was late for a test and naked."

Even our Willow had "naked in public" dreams.

As for your question about psychological dream analysis, Abra, my training taught that dream images are specific to the dreamer. Thus, for many of us, being naked in public==stressfully exposed or unprepared. However, for a comfortable nudist the image presumably would not.

This is important to remember (if you accept the principle) when talking about Restless (oops, I guess I am talking about it). Because it's fiction, the dreamer's images are likely to have communal content. However, it's our understanding of how the particular images resonate with the dreaming character that can provide the most interesting interpretations (imho). For example, Giles' dream about Olivia and Buffy (and the unseen infant) making his own nuclear family could possibly be one more of dread than of longing. Or of a complex combination of the two. Giles' own family relationships were apparently problematic. He tells (in Dark Age) that he resented and rebelled against his family's traditional profession. We never hear him mention family again (to my knowledge). He might be more than abivalent about bequeathing that legacy to another generation.

I've gone on way to long on this side note. Sorry for my version of TMI.

[> [> [> [> [> "The Zeppo" was written by a guy, though. -- Darby, 11:58:34 08/22/03 Fri

Gotta admit I'm not much for dream insight - pretty convinced that dreams are just a biproduct of a nightly process of putting recent events into permanent memory storage, which pulls out and connects all sorts of imagery that may relate to current mental states but probably doesn't mean all that much.

...And I love the theory that REM activity is part of the same system that shows when folks search their memory for certain info and stare off into space - the direction you look relates to the type of info you're accessing (I used to know which direction was which info...). When you're processing memories while asleep, you're doing something similar at a much faster rate.

[> [> [> [> That's fascinating... -- Darby, 11:48:44 08/22/03 Fri

...because Sara's response was very similar to yours, both on the timing and the nekkid quotient.

The Dilemma of the PTC -- Diana, 04:36:36 08/22/03 Fri

Whatever will the uptight folks at the Parents Television Council do next season? Angel made the top 10 Worst Shows on Broadcast TV for 2002-2003 and Smallville made the top 10 Best. Interestingly enough, both in the sixth position.

Seems they had a bit of a problem with Wesley and Lilah:

6. Angel
WB/ 9:00 p.m. (ET/PT) Sunday -- not ranked last season

This Buffy the Vampire Slayer spin-off stars David Boreanaz as a centuries-old vampire searching for redemption while fighting evil in Los Angeles.

Despite its young target audience, Angel routinely features gory violence and graphic sexual encounters. Scenes frequently involve intense fighting, blood, decapitations, and more. The series also sends a dangerous and irresponsible message to teenage fans by equating violence with sexual excitement. In many scenes, characters become aroused by fighting. For example, in one episode, Lilah bites Wesley's ear and shoves him to the floor. After a bit of rough foreplay, she and Wesley are lying on the floor together. Wesley's head moves out of the frame toward her legs. She smiles with pleasure and breathes heavily, suggesting that he is performing oral sex on her.

Oh the horrors. The abomination. I can't even find the words. I'm sure that some of the wordsmiths here can do this justice. I'm laughing too hard.

If you want the full list:
You've Got to Be Kidding Me

Poor Buffy. In her last season, she couldn't capture this high honor. Angel is breaking out of her shadow. Might not be invisible sex Buffy, but Wesley and Lilah were in a word yummy.

[> Powers That...Powers That... -- Darby, 06:08:12 08/22/03 Fri

...criticize? ...complain? ...kvetch would work if you can spell it with a "c"...

Sorry, "PTC" didn't immediately translate, so I was trying a Buffyverse connection to the initials.

It's hard to get too upset about this. A group has a right to have a certain set of values it applies to tv, a right to say what it thinks (or doesn't), and the internet is the great, disseminator of information. At least, so far, it hasn't gotten a lot of broader mediaplay, which is unusual.

And would we have expected any different reaction toward a season that depicted a loving god who preaches peace and understanding but is really just interested in complete control and consuming its worshippers whole?

[> [> Re: Powers That...Powers That... -- heywhynot, 06:52:13 08/22/03 Fri

Well this year's list is making less airplay because well stuff is actually going on. Usually Aug is the dog days of summer for news. Nothing for them to cover, which is why I think the PTC announces its lists during the Aug (and right before the new Fall season starts). They usually are the only thing going (see a couple of years ago when they started covering the shark attacks in Florida). This Aug you have a heat wave in Europe, the on going situation in Iraq, terrorists attacks, the Mideast plan failing once again, blackouts on the East Coast of the US, virus/worm attacks on the multiple OS of Microsoft, and the "wonderful" political circus that is my home state all going on. Hence less traction than usual. The CNN online piece is very short.

I think this past season of Angel could be very easily portrayed as the "evils" of worshipping a false god or being in a cult. Wouldn't the PTC support such activities? ;)

[> [> [> The Powerless that Condemn -- Arethusa, 07:48:56 08/22/03 Fri

It's very curious that a group that praises respect for religion says nothing about a goddess who commits murder, while spouting lines based on Christian concepts. Maybe they were too busy avidly searching for sex and violence to document and protest against.

[> [> [> [> Apparently they watch the show on mute -- celticross, 09:49:14 08/22/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: The Powerless that Condemn -- Darby, 12:03:33 08/22/03 Fri

I think they just know what plays best for public consumption - violence and sex. Folks in general pay more attention to those Protect-Our-Children criticisms than the ones that attack Buffy for its anti-Christian leanings (I think we've all seen a few of those).

I'm just saying that what got Angel on the list may not be what they're saying it is.

[> so this is the teen must-watch list? -- MsGiles, 06:10:04 08/22/03 Fri

[> Visiting a friend later today (Spoilers Father Christmas) -- Celebaelin, 06:57:33 08/22/03 Fri

Not being a parent myself I feel I must be cautious, he and his wife have two children in primary school (one of whom is my God-daughter) so I'll ask him what he thinks of the list. He might be reading this come to think of it (I recently introduced him to the delights of ATPo and I believe he lurks occasionally, if so hi Brian).

I have to admit that my initial reaction was to LOL but on reflection I agree that much of that material isn't really suitable for small children. The problem comes when adults are frowned upon for their choice of viewing. I'm sure that the voyeuristic aspects of TV sex and violence are not lost on anybody here but all these things are in some way truth and, being what I laughingly like to think of as an adult, I believe that I am entitled to decide for myself whether or not a particular form of entertainment is suitable viewing. As regards children the truth is not always appropriate, they should I feel be protected from certain elements of the real world until they have the maturity to deal with them. This is somewhat chicken and egg and the recent publicity regarding paedophilia raises the point that children may need to be in possession of certain unpleasant facts for their own protection. However the thought of having to tell a child that stuff is like spoiling the magic of Christmas by telling a tiny tot that Santa doesn't exist only far, far worse and potentially damaging.

Even then there are some things that you cannot possibly understand without experiencing them. I'm thinking in particular of puberty and the male sex drive - and I don't think I'm being at all sexist when I say I believe this to be substantially different to the much hunted and mysterious female sex drive.

Also I was thinking along the same lines as d'H, Powers That...Censor?


[> [> Re: Shows I never watch -- Brian, 07:19:17 08/22/03 Fri

This discussion got me thinking about what I don't watch on TV:

Any "reality" show
Fox news

What's on your list?

[> [> [> That would be a great discussion -- Mackenzie, 08:13:39 08/22/03 Fri

You should post this as a new post and get that discussion going. I would be interested to see how everyone's viewing patterns differ here. We all watch have this one (two) shows for all different but probably at the core similar reasons, what else do we all watch and why?
For example:
I love-
dramas- Buffy, Angel, Smallville, Gilmore Girls, ER etc.
reality shows (aka rats in a cage, aka Smut TV)- Big Brother, Real World
SOME sitcoms- that 70's show, Friends
All Food TV shows
Most Discovery and TLC shows

Cops(married to one and live the torture, don't want to see it on TV)
see how different we are?

[> [> [> Re: Shows I never watch...and those I do -- purplegrrl, 14:06:43 08/22/03 Fri

The only reality shows I have been able to stomach are "Project Greenlight" and "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." (And I did watch "Trading Spaces" for the three episodes they filmed in Austin.)

Shows I do watch (leans heavily towards sci-fi & fantasy):
obviously Buffy and Angel (even the FX re-runs of Buffy)
Stargate SG-1
CSI and CSI:Miami
Sex and the City
Dead Like Me
Enterprise (occasionally)
Jeremiah (season 2 starts in October)
The Dead Zone
Adventure, Inc. (occasionally)
Inside the Actors Studio (occasionally
stuff on the History channel, Discovery, TLC, A&E, Bravo, etc. that catches my fancy

[> [> Ooops, Darby. Sorry. -- Celebaelin, 08:48:54 08/22/03 Fri

[> [> Re: Visiting a friend later today (Spoilers Father Christmas) -- Kenny, 08:09:55 08/23/03 Sat

You're right about the small children thing, no question about it. If they called the lists "The 10 Most and Least Appropriate Programs for Children," then I wouldn't have any problem with it. But the title "10 Best and Worst" is so loaded it gives me a headache. It's similar to when my mom makes comments like, "That _Will and Grace_ is a horrible show, I don't know why anyone would watch it." She's actually never seen an episode of it. But because it has gay people in it, it must not have anything of value. Granted, I don't think much of the show either, but it's just because I don't think it's funny.

[> Re: The Dilemma of the PTC -- Mackenzie, 07:23:49 08/22/03 Fri

I am usually just a lurker on this board but I do want to put my two cents in about this list and this group. I am a soon to be parent (Nov. 13) and I am also a reasonably intelligent person. I feel that groups such as these are condescending to even the most marginally intelligent person. Of course I am not going to let my children watch shows like Angel or NYPD blue, just watching the opening credits one can deduce that this is a show with mature content meant for adults. I feel like those parents who are "letting" their children watch these shows are not exerting much if any parent authority. I don't need some neo-nazi conservative WASP telling me that a show with adult content and themes are not suited for my children. On the same token, I also feel like they are my children and it is my right and responsibility to decide what they can and can't watch, I don't need other's input.
I feel like the last thing I need is another annoying group of conservatives shoving their religious/moral beliefs down
my throat.

[> [> Baa-Baa -- Diana, 08:23:12 08/22/03 Fri

I don't think that people are realizing just what the PTC does. They don't just publish a list of shows and why people shouldn't watch them. They organize boycotts and go after sponsors. The magic "Family Hour" cannot show anything that they disapprove of or they go after it and try to get it pulled from the air. Their current pet project is the F/X show Nip/Tuck. They are a powerful group and have gotten sponsors from other shows to pull their support.

I don't like them because they let parents abdicate their responsibility. I know people that use the PTC to determine what their kids can and cannot watch. They don't have a clue what is being fed into their kids minds. We know more about what goes into our children's mouths than we do their minds. That is the collective We. There are some very active parents that take their jobs seriously. Unfortunately, we aren't in the majority and it shows.

I'm not going to let my children watch most episodes of Angel any more than I do certain episodes of Buffy. I really don't need to be told that. I have two eyes and brain. I'm not going to let my children watch anything without me knowing about its content. What goes in their minds are just as, if not more, important than what goes into their bodies.

I just found it amusing that Smallville and Angel will now be back to back and they had the same position on Best and Worst list respectively.

[> Desperate for publicity -- KdS, 08:39:32 08/22/03 Fri

When BtVS was on, they jumped on it and totally ignored AtS. Now they think AtS is a high-profile enough show for them to go after. If they think Lilah biting Wes's ear is bad, I'd hate to think what they'd have thought of the Darla/Angel/Dru stuff in S2.

And since when does AtS have a "young target audience"?

[> [> I think action-oriented shows are always seen as having a young target audience. -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:47:33 08/22/03 Fri

If you're older than that, you're supposed to be watching police procedurals.

[> [> [> Fantasy shows are seen as having a young audience -- Masq, 10:36:48 08/22/03 Fri

'Cause grown-ups know better and live in the real world!


One possible reason fantasy and sci-fi are always dissed by the emmys.

[> [> Good point -- Tyreseus, 10:49:48 08/22/03 Fri

And since when does AtS have a "young target audience"?

I agree completely. I don't have any children of my own yet, but I am the oldest sibling in a family of nine children, so I feel like I have some parenting experience (my mother was very sick during my last year in high school and first year post-graduation, leaving me in charge of a lot while dad was at work). Based on the show's tone and theme, I couldn't *possibly* have talked any of my brothers and sisters under the age of 10 into watching it. They were still more interested in Pokemon and really lame sitcoms.

So I conducted an unscientific poll of my sibs this morning to find out at what age Angel might be of interest to viewers.

25 yrs - would watch, thinks DB is "hot"
22 yrs - does watch, thinks DB is "too old" for her
21 yrs - doesn't watch tv ("who has time with" - currently in her senior year of college)
20 yrs - does watch and agrees that it might not be suitable for younger kids
18 yrs - has watched it but is bored because it's about "a bunch of old people"
15 yrs - doesn't watch because it would cut into his video game playing
14 yrs - doesn't really watch but might start next season because "Spike is so hot" (if I know her, she'll be over it as soon as a "cuter" guy is on a show in a competing time slot)
13 yrs - says he's seen it, but thinks it is boring. I pressed him on this and he commented that the monsters are really lame compared to the bad guys in his favorite horror flicks.

Anyway, it doesn't seem to me that Angel apeals to much of anyone under 20ish. Of course, my family is strange and (except for me) Mormon, so they can hardly be considered 'the norm' except for Utah.

[> The day I realized my children were too old to watch BtVS and Ats -- Ronia, 22:58:27 08/23/03 Sat

I came to watch BtVS regularly during S4, at the time both of my children were still in the infant stage. We didn't focus very closely on what they were exposed to on TV. I admit it. We doubted that a child too small to uncross his eyes for more than a few seconds was likely to suffer much trauma from my favorite TV show. It was part of our household routine to have buffy night. We would have friends and family over, make pizza or some other festive finger food, and watch and discuss. As the years passed though, the children began to pay more attention to what was going on around them, and because it was habbit, it never even made a blip on my radar that perhaps this was a bit mature for them. Then, afterlife....the scene where anya is giggling and slicing her face made me jump..and made my daughter cry...buffy night has been cancelled until further notice...well...not so much cancelled, but it's showing at a later time, and is not the occasion it once was. I hope someday when they are older we can reintroduce buffy night, it was good food, good conversation, and is sorely missed.

[> [> For us it was Xena -- Diana, 08:09:50 08/24/03 Sun

When I noticed how intrigued the older one was with the fight scenes, around the age of 1 1/2, I decided that maybe I would have to forgo Xena for a while, at least if she was still up. She would be nicely playing somewhere in the living room and I would be watching TV. She would hear the fighting and become mesmorized.

Luckily Buffy came on after the kids' bed time. It is only when it is on F/X that we have to be concerned and then we watch it on the small TV in my bedroom. The kids may come in to ask something, but they understand about "grown-up TV" now and listen fairly well.

The baby who is now almost 3 doesn't have the same problem. She tends to walk in and out and doesn't give fighting a second glance. She even does the Grr Argh monster at the end. It's her favorite part. Kids are all different.

[> [> [> We love the Grr Argh monster... -- Ronia, 08:45:10 08/24/03 Sun

Not all buffy is off limits to them..they really like some of the eps...but as of S6...both because the boundaries got stretched a bit, and they had become more aware, we don't watch new eps with them..pre approved re-runs are fine of daughter especially likes Gone, hard to be scared when your parents are laughing themselves sick.

[> Buffy/Angel v Touched by an Angel -- JCC, 08:37:27 08/25/03 Mon

Take a look at what it says about "Touched for an Angel", their Best show.

"Every episode emphasized the power of goodness over evil, the need to strengthen familial relationships, the importance of individual responsibility, and an encouragement to maintain faith in God. Although it's no longer part of the broadcast schedule, Touched by an Angel lives on in syndication, airing weeknights on Pax."

Didn't Buffy and Angel do much the same. I don't think the PTC don't look very hard at these shows.

Selfishness and Resentment -- Claudia, 08:27:53 08/22/03 Fri

I was watching "Dead Man's Party" the other day and noticed how the Scoobies expressed their resentment toward Buffy's summer-long disappearance, following Angel's death. And some of their resentment seemed to be expressed in a rather self-absorbed way. Especially Willow.

And it occurred to me - why is it that Buffy has been continuously criticized and bashed for her bouts of self-abosorbed behavior by the show's characters and real life fans, and yet the Scoobies are excused for theirs?

[> Because we judge heroes more sternly -- KdS, 08:37:13 08/22/03 Fri

Someone on LiveJournal was writing about this the other day and saying it isn't just BtVS - all over the place central characters get judged far more harshly than sidekicks. I think it's because we still see the central character of a show as setting an example for us to look up to, while the sidekicks are often our representatives in the show.

[> Fleeing her responsibilities -- Gyrus, 09:11:58 08/22/03 Fri

With regard to the particular example you mentioned, I think the Scoobies were mainly resentful because they had to take up the burden of slaying vampires all summer -- a dangerous and demanding job for which (as we saw) they weren't really qualified. Not to mention that Buffy never contacted anyone to tell them, for example, that she wasn't in Hell with Angel, or that she hadn't jumped off a bridge right afterwards.

As for the Scoobies and their bouts of self-absorption, however, I don't think they are criticized any less. For example, few people were quick to let Xander off the hook after the "kick his ass" incident, or Willow during her magic addiction, or Riley when he was visiting the blood-whores. (Also, though I can't speak for anyone else, I was certainly critical of how Oz handled the situation with Veruca, when telling the others what was going on would have spared everyone a lot of grief.)

So I don't know if you're right about the criticism thing. But then, I probably don't read all the same boards you do.

[> [> Re: Fleeing her responsibilities -- Claudia, 14:10:37 08/22/03 Fri

[With regard to the particular example you mentioned, I think the Scoobies were mainly resentful because they had to take up the burden of slaying vampires all summer -- a dangerous and demanding job for which (as we saw) they weren't really qualified. Not to mention that Buffy never contacted anyone to tell them, for example, that she wasn't in Hell with Angel, or that she hadn't jumped off a bridge right afterwards.]

Why did the Scoobies felt they had to slay vampires in her place, that summer? Who asked them? And why is slaying vampires Buffy's reponsibility (from another post)? She never asked for the job. I'm beginning to suspect that if Buffy had become the Slayer when she was older, she would have told the Watchers' Council to take this job and shove it. I know I would.

And considering what Buffy had went through - killing Angel - surely the Scoobies could have at least understood why she left. But they didn't. So again, why are they excused for their self-absorbed behavior and she's not? Hero or not, Buffy is a human being with human flaws. Surely they could have understand that?

[> [> [> Re: Fleeing her responsibilities -- Gyrus, 14:55:51 08/22/03 Fri

Why did the Scoobies felt they had to slay vampires in her place, that summer? Who asked them?

Who else would have done it? The alternative would be to let the vamps multiply out of control until Sunnydale was more or less like the Wishverse.

And why is slaying vampires Buffy's reponsibility (from another post)? She never asked for the job.

Let's say you're in a burning building. On my way to escape the building, you see someone -- let's say a small girl whom you can carry easily -- who is unconscious from smoke inhalation. She's not your child; you don't even know her. But there's no one else in sight. Are you not obligated to save her?

In the words of Peter Parker's uncle Ben, "With great power comes great responsibility." Buffy's duty to slay the vampires comes from the fact that she is (or was) one of the only people on Earth who can do it effectively. The Initiative storyline showed us what happens if Slaying is left to the amateurs, even very competent amateurs.

And considering what Buffy had went through - killing Angel - surely the Scoobies could have at least understood why she left.

Buffy didn't tell any of them the details, even when she could have; Giles had to trick her just to find out what really happened. I imagine that knowing the whole story would have softened everyone's attitudes a bit.

But they didn't. So again, why are they excused for their self-absorbed behavior and she's not?

To what self-absorbed behavior (on the Scoobys' part) are you referring? Can you give any examples?

[> [> [> [> Re: Fleeing her responsibilities -- sdev, 18:45:21 08/22/03 Fri

To what self-absorbed behavior (on the Scoobys' part) are you referring? Can you give any examples?

How about Willow's little speech faulting Buffy for not being there fulfilling her most important role as best friend?

WILLOW: This isn't easy, Buffy! I know you're going through stuff, but... so am I.

BUFFY: I know that you were worried about me, but...

WILLOW: No! I don't just mean that. I mean, my life! You know? I, um... I'm having all sorts of... I'm dating, I'm having serious dating with a *werewolf*, a-and I'm studying witchcraft and killing vampires, and I didn't have anyone (starts sobbing) to talk to about all this scary life stuff. And you were my best friend.

Nice little guilt trip. Did Willow think her "scary life stuff" compared to what Buffy had just gone through? I didn't. The most justified anger I can understand is Joyce's as a mother of a runaway, and her friends if the basis was concern for her safety since her whereabouts were unknown.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fleeing her responsibilities -- Gyrus, 13:14:34 08/23/03 Sat

How about Willow's little speech faulting Buffy for not being there fulfilling her most important role as best friend?

Note that when Buffy says, "I know that you were worried about me," Willow starts with "No! I don't just mean that." (italics added) Willow was upset both because she was worried about Buffy AND because she missed her best friend.

[> Re: Selfishness and Resentment -- Eryn, 00:15:05 08/23/03 Sat

I agree with you, Claudia. This episode is, to me, the Scoobies at their most selfish and callous. I don't think running away is a wonderful thing, but I think under the circumstances it was understandable. I didn't like how Buffy acquiesced at the end. Since she apologized for leaving, the Scoobies ought to have apologized for being lousy friends. Giles is the only person in this episode whom I do not want to hit on the head with a plank.

There are higher standards for Buffy because she's the chosen one; nothing great and mystical chose the others to do remarkable things. Ultimately Anya brings up the very interesting (albeit stated in a nasty way) question: Is Buffy really that special?


[> [> Re: Selfishness and Resentment -- tam, 08:11:35 08/23/03 Sat

'Giles is the only person in this episode whom I do not want to hit on the head with a plank.'

i will always love giles.

Pics for Angel 5.1 up; questions about Spike and the new office (spoilers, obviously) -- cjl, 08:37:37 08/22/03 Fri

Pics from ANGEL 5.1 up at Comics Continuum....

The new office looks great. I'm curious, though--what in the name of Hades is that triangular symbol on the wall behind Angel? Judging from its prominence on the set, and the sophistication of the design, I'm betting it has symbolic importance, but I can't make it out well enough to analyze the "story" it's telling. Obviously, its shape reflects the three-fold nature of Wolf/Ram/Hart and the trionic texts of the Pylea arc, but beyond that, I haven't a clue. Anybody want to venture an interpretation?

The cast looks great. Keep DB in black. Keep JAR in a suit. Keep Mercedes and Amy in whatever they're wearing, they're adorable. Wes is still as scruffy as ever, bless 'im. And Lorne--a powder blue suit with an ascot. I still can't believe my eyes. He's the only person in any number of universes who could pull that off.

And Spike? He looks the same as he always did. He's still got (an ephemeral version of) Nikki's jacket. I find that sort of strange. I mean, he's not the same entity he was when he cleaned out that cavern in "Chosen." The demon has been purged, and what's left is the soul. Shouldn't all vestiges of demonic appearance have gone the way of the demon form?

Then again, you can look at this way: it's Angel's series, and he's being haunted by Spike. It's only natural (from Angel's POV) that Spike appears to him the way Angel would remember him--mainly, bleached blonde, snarky, and wearing the jacket.

[> Re: Pics for Angel 5.1 up; questions about Spike and the new office (spoilers, obviously) -- Vickie, 08:58:24 08/22/03 Fri

spoilers for the pix, spec on the season below. You've been warned!

Sorry, cjl, but it doesn't look like Spike's demon has been purged. That second pic shows him vamped out, snarling at the AI team. Still a vampire, still got the demon.

As for Lorne, not only an ascot, but a powder blue suit with a blue and gold paisley shirt and an ascot! I've been struck blind, but in a good way.

Can't wait to see how this will all work!

[> [> Huh? How does that work? (spoilers for A5.1) -- cjl, 09:24:44 08/22/03 Fri

Last warning....


I thought that was impossible--at least according the rules of the Jossverse.

The demon body is destroyed, and what's left is the human soul. Darla stakes herself in Lullaby, and when she appears to Connor in Inside Out, she's pure spirit--no trace of vamp.

On the other hand, I promised myself I wouldn't overthink the metaphysics of the Jossverse the way I did last year. OK. Spike is a ghost AND a vampire. [Whistles happily and goes back to work...]

[> [> [> An explanation that could work: -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:18:48 08/22/03 Fri

Spike is able to shift his form, but doesn't realize it. He appears in his traditional coat and white hair because that's how he visualises himself. Likewise, he vamps out because he's so used to being able to do it. If he realized his abilities and practiced, I bet that Spike could drastically alter his appearance.

Also, what makes you think that the demon is only part of the body? Given vampires' evil is good philosophy, I'm betting there's some spiritual essence as well. As for Darla: can we really be sure that was a ghost and not just a PTB created hologram?

[> [> [> [> Another explanation.... (Spoilers A5.1) -- cjl, 10:35:00 08/22/03 Fri

He's not really a ghost. He's just slightly out-of-phase with our reality.

[> [> [> [> This is what I'm thinking. -- HonorH, 10:37:42 08/22/03 Fri

Spike's ghost vamps out because it hasn't occurred to him yet that he's *not* a vamp.

[> [> [> Re: Huh? How does that work? (spoilers for A5.1) -- heywhynot, 10:46:34 08/22/03 Fri

Well whatever the amulet is probably has alot to do with what is going on. It required someone who had a sould yet was stronger than a normal human. Looks like the amulet will not just be a "deux ex machina" as some have believed. It is part of a story that is on going.

Sidenote: We don't know if Darla could vamp out or not, because well she did not do any fighting.

[> [> [> Re: Huh? How does that work? (spoilers for A5.1) -- Claudia, 13:59:27 08/22/03 Fri

I thought that Fred will discover that Spike is not a complete ghost. That he will be something in-between.

[> [> [> He may be neither... -- ZachsMind, 23:34:11 08/22/03 Fri

Agreed, generally when a vampire is destroyed, the demonic presence leaves the body and the human body immediately accelerates with age to the point of bursting into dust, because fate catches up with it. However, Spike's alleged death was not by a stake through the heart. It looked like light was literally coming out of him, sunlight-like life which destroyed all the ubervamps, closed the hellmouth, and caused Sunnydale the city to become a crater. Whatever it is that amulet is supposed to do, it's unique.

It's not necessarily so that Spike actually physically died in the end of "Chosen." We think he died, but that may not have been what went on. The amulet he was wearing came not from Angel but from Wolfram & Hart, who believed Angel was going to wear it for Buffy. I think the amulet causes the individual to dematerialize and perhaps even lose cohesion, but actually being a ghost? Well he is obviously a phantom of some sort, but it's artificial. Joss Whedon may not be taking liberties with how his world works here. This is a special case.

[> I hadn't heard (spoiler) -- mamcu, 09:06:07 08/22/03 Fri

about Harmony being there, but then I've been staying away from spoilers.

[> Thanks, cjl! After seeing those pictures, I am sooo psyched for the next season!! -- Rob, 09:38:40 08/22/03 Fri

[> Okay, Angel looks *hot* in that shirt. -- HonorH, 10:38:56 08/22/03 Fri

Hope that didn't spoil anyone . . .

[> [> But... (SPOILERS) -- dub ;o), 11:36:43 08/22/03 Fri

What the heck is wrong with DB's face? It's all red, and lumpy, and it looks like his nose has been broken...most notable in the close-up shot of just DB and JM.

Hmmmm, maybe he's just been in a fight? But not with Spike, obviously, being incorporeal 'n all...


[> Thanks! -- AurraSing, 12:37:38 08/22/03 Fri

I'm disappointed in the way Spike looks but otherwise the pics look great.

[> ok, how do y'all know that Spike is a... (SPOILERS!!!!) -- Seven, 15:28:25 08/22/03 Fri

Last warning

Ghost? I didn't get the impression that ol Spike was a ghost from the pictures. Y'all must have heard something. Man, i was hoping to just look at the pictures. Ok at least could someone give me the 411 with how you know that Spike's a ghost? Please? I ask for so little.

[> [> All right . . . (spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:23:44 08/22/03 Fri

Information from the first few episodes of Season 5 indicates that Spike is incorporeal.

Also, cjl did mark his post with a spoiler warning, but I can understand how you might think it was only spoilers for pictures.

[> [> [> Re: All right . . . (spoilers) -- Seven, 18:01:37 08/22/03 Fri

Not too much harm done. yeah, just thought pictures. Oh, well, it will whet my appeitite.

Favourite Moments -- Gomez, 09:09:15 08/22/03 Fri

So if you could narrow the last seven years of Buffy, and four years of Angel down to just a couple of special moments (from ten seconds to a scene), what are they? (I'm not going for episodes here, just the exceptional few snippets that managed to affect you)

Mine are:
Buffy, Prophecy Girl. "Giles I'm sixteen years old. I don't want to die."
Buffy, Becoming, part one. At the end, when she runs into the school, around the corner and it morphs into slow-mo. Just those three seconds.
Willow, Wild At Heart. At the end, when Oz is leaving her. So, the second half of that scene. This was the first episode of Buffy I watched, and little Willow hooked me.

And Faith, in the season one crossover of Angel, when she's fighting Angel in the alley and she breaks down and pleads him to kill her.

There you go. Just little snippets of the series that meant the most to me.

[> Re: Favourite Moments --
ScottS, 10:06:59 08/22/03 Fri

The moment in "Hush", when the gang meets at Giles' apartment after the Silence starts, and they all wait for a moment while Willow writes "Hi Giles" on her message board. This brings tears to my eyes every time.

In "Consequences", in the cafeteria scene, the few interminable seconds after everyone realizes that Xander has had sex with Faith. Is it just me, or is this not the best written, directed and acted scene in the whole series? -- as each character tries desperately to not show the others what she/he is thinking, and each character shows US exactly what she/he is thinking.

In "Dear Boy", the cross sizzling on Angel's chest as Darla says "God doesn't want you, but _I_ still do."

The moment in "Anne", when Buffy asks Chanterelle "What do they call you at home?", and Chanterelle looks away, as far away as it is possible for one human being to move from another human being in an instant.

In "Bargaining", when Buffy is first struck by the cycle-demon, as she turns back towards him and wipes the blood from her mouth. And two episodes later, while Willow is babbling in the Summers' kitchen, Giles: "You stupid girl". Those two moments changed the dynamic of the series, and the show lost an essential innocence that it never regained.

Finally, in "Lullaby", in the rain behind Caritas, as Angel holds Darla's hand, her looking up at him, "You died in an alley. Remember?" The emotion in that line somehow sums up everything that had come before, in both series.

[> [> Just a couple of many.. -- ZachsMind, 15:04:10 08/22/03 Fri

When the hospitalized Willow is struggling through the resouling of Angelus, and then suddenly something powerful takes over.

When Faith's faux Watcher bit the big one.

Kendra & Buffy facing off in their first meeting.

Buffy punching Angel repeatedly until he drinks from her.

Xander liking the quiet.

Giles testing a theory.

Anya singing about bunnies.

Dawn asking if it's blood.

Faith in Buffy's body, practicing "It's Wrong."

Riley not looking out the helicopter window.

Joyce's eyes staring blankly into space. Buffy fixing her skirt cuz they're coming. There's just so many moments in The Body. It's hard to pick just one.

When Doyle gave his life to help strangers who were mutts just like him.

When Dennis' mom calls Cordy a bitch. The look on Cordy's face as her old self comes back.

There's more. I gotta go.

[> [> [> Ooh! One more! -- ZachsMind, 15:05:23 08/22/03 Fri

Oz wakes up in tall grass. Naked. He sits up. He looks around.


[> Mmmm...the best! -- Nino, 10:29:03 08/22/03 Fri

-Angel's voiceovers in "Passion"

-Faith's "Because its wrong" scene in the church of "Who Are You?"

-Tara and Giles sing the blues and say goodbye in "OMWF"

-"6 years of being the sidekick, and now I get to be the Slayer."
-Willow (was it "TTG" or "Grave"?).

-Spike's "Death is your art..." monologue in "FFL"

-Darla stakes herself

-Angel, Wes and Cordy become a family in "To Shansu in L.A."

-Cordy kills Lilah....oh man, didn't see that one coming!

...and of course...

-Anya breaks down in "The Body"

-Buffy figures it all out in "The Gift"

[> [> Mmmm...the best funny ones! -- Nino, 11:33:44 08/23/03 Sat

-Cordy in "Earshot": "I don't see what this has to do me...whatever, can I go?"

Xander in Grad. Day Pt. 1..."Yes, we drink of the beer and enjoy to look at the bossoms.."

-"Fine. You know what? I hope you die.....aren't we gonna kiss?" (Anya in "Graduation Day pt. 1)

-"Oh! I know this! It's peer pressure! Pretty soon your gonna try to make me smoke cigarettes and have drugs!"
(Anya, "Triangle")

-"You're referencing literature I have no way of being familiar with!"
(Again, Anya, to Willow and Tara and "Triangle"...they were talking about the "Cat in the Hat"...I know most people hate that ep...but i love it!")

-Willow and Tara being interviewed by the Council in "Checkpoint"

-Anya's "born on the fourth of July" speech in the same ep.

-Anya's "Willow's a demon??" in the same ep lots of Anya...may she rest in peace!

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Claudia, 14:34:04 08/22/03 Fri

"School Hard" - Spike meeting Buffy for the first time

"Something Blue" - Buffy and Spike reacting to the broken spell

"Doppelgangland" - Angel's realization that there are two Willows.

"The Gift" - Buffy's jump into the portal

"Potential" - Xander's speech about normal people to Dawn

"Chosen" - Buffy holding Spike's hand and a flame ignites.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Seven, 15:11:46 08/22/03 Fri

Easily the best moment, hands down(!), is

"I'd like to test that theory." by Giles at the end of TTG(?)

Nothing beats that.
Honerable mention goes to

Wesely in "The Ring" shooting the crossbow, catching the gun an twisting the arrow in the guys hand.

Oz in BATBeasts (S3) "Ok, rules change."

Drusilla walking in to vamp Darla at the end of The Trial

The final scene of Hush

Giles drunk in The Yoko Factor.

Angel and Riley fight in TYF

Buffy and Faith fight GD pt 1

Angel wrapping the chain around his fist to fight Skip (slo-mo rules!)

Wes shooting Skip through the hole in his armor skin.

There are millions more, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

[> A few humorous favorites -- Vickie, 15:28:28 08/22/03 Fri

I'm surprised that these are nearly 100% dramatic moments. Here are some of my less serious favorites:

Faith exploring her new (Buffy's) body. Zach mentioned the "it's wrong" practice, but that whole sequence, particularly the faces in the mirror, just makes me giggle.

Buffy drinking with Spike, making that hilarious gagging noise, and berating him for being drunk.

Alexis Denisof's physical humor in Spin the Bottle.

Oz reacting to the reality of vampires.

The Judge: "What's that do?"

Buffy proving to Giles that she can hear thoughts. (strapping cats to her feet)

The gang, screaming at the reality of vampires (Tabula Rasa).

"A vampire with a soul? How lame is that?" (same episode)

Buffy proving to Giles that it's her in Faith's body. "shall I go on?" "No, I beg you to stop." "What's a stevedore?"

[> [> More humorous favorites -- ZachsMind, 17:32:04 08/22/03 Fri

GILES: "The Earth is doomed!"

GILES: "Don't taunt the fear demon."
XANDER: "Why, can he hurt me?"
GILES: "No, it's just - tacky."

WILLOW: (waking up) "Don't warn the tadpoles!"

OZ: "Y'know cuz the bench was lookin' shifty."

CORDELIA: "How about color me totally self-involved?"

AMANDA: "Do you think I should pound on him some more?"

MAYOR: "I could just eat 'em up."

XANDER: "To read makes our speaking English good."

BUFFY: "Vampires... Here, vampires..."

ANYA: "Buffy killed the demon. It was gross."

CORDY: "What is your childhood trauma?!"

GILES: "I'll be back in the middle ages."
JENNY: "Did you ever leave?"

GILES: (looking up at the sky) "God, every day here is the same."
BUFFY: "Bright, sunny, beautiful, how ever can we escape this torment?"

GILES: "Alright, I-I'll just jump in my time machine, go back to the twelfth century and ask the vampires to postpone their ancient prophecy for a few days while you take in dinner and a show."

SPIKE: "Who you gonna call? God, that phrase is never gonna be useable again, is it?"

XANDER: "It's funny how the Earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to."

CORDELIA: "Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass."

GILES: "But that's the thrill of living on the Hellmouth! There's a veritable cornucopia of, of fiends and devils and, and ghouls to engage. (everyone looks at him) Pardon me for finding the glass half full."

GILES: "The earth is definitely doomed."

[> [> [> Re: Some of my favorite humorous parts... -- meritaten, 01:03:54 08/23/03 Sat

BUFFY: (As the gang tries to figure out what would be attacking studetns and leaving behind only their skin) Yeah, the skin's the best part. Any demons with high cholestorol? (Pause) You'll think about that later, mister, and you'll laugh.

GILES: Once again, I teeter at the precipice of the generation gap.

SPIKE: I fed off a flowerperson, and I spent the next six hours watching my hand move.

CORDELIA: What? Why does everyone always yell my name? I'm not deaf!

GILES: That was a bit ... British, wasn't it?

XANDER: The Hellmouth's answer to "What do you get the Slayer who has everything?" (After Buffy opens the box with the Judge's arm.)

DRUCILLA: I'm naming all the stars. Only, I've given tham all the same name and there's terrible confusion.
SPIKE: Dru, that's the ceiling. Also, it's day.

WILLOW: (In Phases, after learning that Oz was a werewolf) He said he was going through all these changes, ... then he went through all these changes.

OZ: (Telling Willow that Giles had said that he could continue life, even as a werewolf, if he locked himself up three nights every month) Only he used more words than that. ...and a globe.

CORDELIA: (Upon learning that there was a spell to reverse her invitation to Angel to ride in her car) Thank Goodness! I actually had to talk my grandmother into switching cars with me last night.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Kenny, 17:28:57 08/22/03 Fri

You got one of mine (if not my top one) with "Prophecy Girl". Others:

The "watch her back" exchange Xander and Cordelia had in "Der Kinderstaad"

"Gosh, no, 'cause you're Supertramp." The only real Cordelia moment from AtS S4.

"I'm a comfortador."

The very first scene of AtS S2. Lorne's best scene ever. If S1 didn't break AtS away from BtVS, that did it.

Willow waving to Oz in "Dopplegangland". Xander, Buffy, and Giles hugging her. Heck, that episode is one huge great moment. "And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned."

[> [> Re: Favourite Moments -- skpe, 17:59:07 08/22/03 Fri

from the Zeppo
xander: 'Is it hard to play the gitar?'
oz: 'Not the way I play it"

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- tam, 19:11:54 08/22/03 Fri

in 'what's my line' part 2 -- when buffy puts her legs up on the desk and giles pats her shoe so she will move them. he does it to xander in another episode (can't remember which) and i love it -- it is so giles. it was the little things like this that made (or one of the things) this series one of the best ever on tv.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Artemis, 21:47:05 08/22/03 Fri

This will be hard . Love the ones already chosen so I'll pick a few new ones.

Buffy and Xanders dance in, "When she was Bad"

The scene when Buffy visits Angels apartment after her dream. In Surprise. It's very sexy.

Willow's line in Graduation Day pt2. At the graduation. "Is it over? Did we fight. I crack up everytime I here this.

Buffy and Willow looking disgusted at the selling of message boards in "Hush" and then coming into Giles apartment with message boards.

Glorys line. "Ooh you have superpowers. Can you fly?

The fight on the Winnebago in "Spiral.' cool fight scene not often mentioned.

The line by Buffy in "The Gift" " ...and I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn. It just shows how serious this all was to her. And was not said lightly.

Of course the fight/sex scene with Spike in "Smashed"

And for Season seven:
The first major speech by Buffy. We're not ready ... They're not ready. Regardless of all the speeches that came after, this still gives me chills.

The slo/mo shot of Buffy rising after she's been stabbed then taunted by the first.

Of course there are so many more, but these are some that may not get mentioned, except perhaps "Smashed,"

Thanks for starting this. While I love reading some of the deeper thoughts on the board. These sort of things are just fun. And first and foremost I'm a fan.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Cheryl, 22:01:22 08/22/03 Fri

So many incredible moments to choose from! Many already mentioned here, but here a few others that stand out for me, funny and serious:

S7: Spike's "pep talk" to Buffy after she's been kicked out of her own house: "I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead even longer . . . "

S7: Angel's "mature" reaction on learning Spike has a soul.

S6: Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea

S5: Riley and Spike sharing a drink after Riley stabs Spike with a plastic stake. "Yeah, I'm the guy"

S4: Superstar Jonathan everywhere

S4: "A bear! You made a bear! Undo it, undo it!"

Man, how I miss psyche's transcript site! I need to give more thought to the earlier seasons.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Cinderela, 22:18:20 08/22/03 Fri

Sorry this is so long, there are so many, I finally decided to de-lurk....

Lovers Walk - Spike - "And when did you become all soul-having again? I thought you out-grew that." "You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood -- blood screaming inside you to work its will." Willow - "...but there will be no bottle in face, and there will be no "having" of any kind with me." Spike: Yeah? You and what army?" Buffy: That would be me. Angel, why don't you come on in?" Angel: "There's got to be some way we can still see each other." Buffy: "There is. Tell me you don't love me."

The Body - Willow - "...Can't I be a grownup?" Anya - "But I don't understand! I don't understand how this all happens. ...I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore!...and no one will explain to me WHY!"

Checkpoint - Buffy "You guys didn't come all the way from England to determine whether I was good enough to be let back in. You came to beg me to let you back in. (She hurls a sword) I'm fairly certain I said no interruptions. You can't do anything with the information you have, except maybe publish it in the Everyone Thinks We're Insanos Home Journal. But I want an answer right now from Quentin. 'Cause I think he's understanding me. See? No begging."

The Wish/Doppelgangland - Willow: "Bored now." (Also in Villans) "This is a dumb world. In my world there are people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies." Looking down at the "evil Willow" leather outfit "Gosh, look at those." Giles: "Yes, I'm aware that there's a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland. It happens, you know, that Sunnydale in on a Hellmouth. It is so!"

Villans - Xander - "You gotta stop doing this. This dying thing's funny once, maybe twice." Willow - "Bored now."

Grave - Willow to Giles "You're always saving everyone. It's kind of pesky." Willow to Buffy "It was me who took you out of the earth. Well, now... the earth wants you back." Xander "You've been my best friend my whole life. World gonna end... where else would I want to be? ...The first day of kindergarten, you cried because you broke the yellow crayon, and you were too afraid to tell anyone. You've come pretty far. Ending the world, not a terrific notion. But the thing is, yeah, I love you. I love crayon-breaky Willow, and I love scary-veiny Willow."

[> [> Re: Favourite Moments -- Dandy, 22:54:29 08/25/03 Mon

Cordelia: "What, I can't have layers?" on the shocked reaction of the Scoobies to her SAT scores. This sums up what I loved about early Btvs, girly girls can have layers, be smart or slayery.

And "When you kiss me I wanna die." So incredibly romantic and idealistic, whole hearted and heart-breaking.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Rook, 05:35:36 08/23/03 Sat

Let's see, Favorite scenes:

Buffy kills Angel - Becoming II

Class Protector - The Prom

Rape - Dead Things: The way this scene turns on a dime from darkly comic to outright horrifying is amazing. Danny Strong's delivery here really sells the scene. Maybe the best scene in S6 outside of parts of OMWF.

Buffy vs. Faith - GD2

Buffy vs. Spike - HLOD

Willow Kissage - Innocence. This is where I really start to like Oz.

Giles in a Wizard suit - NPLH. Funniest scene ever. No words necessary.

Because it's wrong - This Year's Girl - Buffy in Faith in the bathroom, and the "Pop like warm champagne" speech to Spike.

Love's Bitch - Lover's Walk

Oz leaves - Both scenes, in NMR and Wild at Heart.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- Ames, 09:58:56 08/24/03 Sun

I love reading all these, because each one calls up the memory of that great scene.

A few more from me:

Buffy's "You have to know what to see" dream and subsequent rampage on Jenny in Innocence.

Faith and Buffy's shared dream in Graduation Day I while they were both in the hospital (the 730 prophecy dream). Beautiful music, beautiful scene.

Willow's whole scene with Spike where he finds out about the chip in The Initiative. "This probably happens to all the vampires." "It's me, isn't it?"

Buffy's laconic "That could never happen." comment about Wiley Coyote being hit with a wrecking ball in a Roadrunner cartoon on TV in Goodbye Iowa in S4. This is one of the few times that a line was deliberately written to only be funny in long retrospective! (can anyone think of another?)

[> [> Re: Favourite Moments -- btvsk8, 12:29:26 08/24/03 Sun

OMG! I never got the whole connection of the cartoon to Xander's wrecking ball in the Gift! How silly of me... tee hee that is funny!

I always saw that as a joke at the people who watch Buffy and say "That would never happen", but this obviously is even better.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- MaeveRigan, 16:25:37 08/24/03 Sun

Buffy, Willow, and Xander realize that they're "doomed" to never have normal love lives as long as they live in Sunnydale. ("I Robot, You Jane")

The terrible Oedipus as the "Puppet Show" credits roll.

Willow puts on her "resolve face" to convince the others to help her re-ensoul Angel ("Becoming" 2)

Buffy kills Angel ("Becoming" 2)--hankies every time, dammit!

Buffy and the rocket launcher vs. the Judge ("Innocence")--it's a classic

Xander vs. Jack the zombie and the bomb--"I like the quiet"--in "The Zeppo"

Willow and VampWillow find they have something in common in "Doppelgangland":
VAMP-WILLOW: "This world's no fun"
WILLOW: You noticed that too?

Jonathan presents Buffy with the "Class Protector" parasol in "The Prom"

Oz panics, leading to the consummation of his relationship with Willow just before "Graduation".

Willow confronts Parker in "Beer Bad."

Riley decks Parker in "The Initiative" (Parker cannot be punished enough, IMNSHO)

Spike tries to bite Willow after escaping from the Initiative labs and finds that he has trouble performing ("The Initiative")
WILLOW: You know, this doesn't make you any less terrifying.
SPIKE: Don't patronize me.

Faith (in Buffy's body) practices being Buffy, saying "Because it's wrong" in the mirror in "Who Are You?"

Riley and Xander have a heart-to-heart in "The Replacement" and Riley stuns Xander with the revelation that he knows Buffy doesn't love him.

Riley and Spike find they have something in common in "Into the Woods"--unrequited love for Buffy.

Anya's "I don't understand" speech in "The Body"

The shot of Buffy's gravestone at the end of "The Gift"

Buffy tells Spike she wasn't in hell at the end of "Afterlife"

Every single minute of "Once More with Feeling"

Buffy encounters Amy in "Smashed":
BUFFY: How've you been?
AMY: Rat. You?
BUFFY: Dead.
AMY: Oh.

Spike and Buffy's devastating passion brings down the house in "Smashed"

Buffy's DMP training video--it's almost more horrifying than "The Gentlemen"!

Buffy begs Tara not to forgive her at the end of "Dead Things"

Xander saves Willow and the world with love at the end of "Grave"

Buffy discovers Spike in the highschool basement in "Lessons":
SPIKE: [touching her face gently] Buffy, duck--
BUFFY: What? Duck? There's a duck? [gets hit from behind by the dead janitor]

Every moment of "Storyteller"--another brilliant episode.

Dawn learns the Turkish spell book she laboriously read has already exists in an English translation, and doesn't throw a fit. ("Touched")

The last Guardian can't believe the Slayer is called "Buffy" ("End of Days"):
GUARDIAN: What's your name?
BUFFY: Buffy.
GUARDIAN: No, really.

Giles hears about Willow's girlfriend's pierced tongue and doesn't polish his glasses, though Dawn is a bit startled--once she figures it out ("Chosen").

Giles, Andrew, Xander, and Amanda play Dungeons and Dragons ("Chosen").

Xander, Buffy, and Willow chat about shopping, leading Giles to say, again, "The earth is definitely doomed" ("Chosen").

Willow does the Slayer empowerment spell with the Scythe, goes white-haired & glowy and collapses with "That was nifty!" ("Chosen").

This is much too long. Favorite AtS moments will have to wait for another post.

[> Re: Favourite Moments -- LittleBit, 23:11:12 08/25/03 Mon

I've been waiting for someone to say this one, but maybe because the episode is so disliked we forget about it.

While planning the 'welcome' dinner for Buffy in s2 "Dead Man's Party":

Cordelia: I'm the dip.
Everyone looks at her, but she doesn't notice.
Xander: Uh, you gotta admire the purity of it. (chuckles)

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