August 2003 posts

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Giles vs Jonathon -- JBone, 20:07:59 08/26/03 Tue

Jonathan. Ugh, I had him in my grasp. Slippery weasel.

yesterdays results

Mondays results

[> The Tie Breaker-y One of the Triumvirate says... -- deeva, 20:42:05 08/26/03 Tue

Giles. Hands down. Love Jonathan. Really I do. But the boy doesn't stand a chance against That Guy in The Coffee Commercial. Sure Jonathan was able to perform a really difficult glamour and he seemed to be able to cast spells over demons with his "magic bone" but he's no Ripper. And one more thing, Dr. Frank N. Furter. 'Nuff said.

[> Please. This is no contest. -- cjl, 20:54:35 08/26/03 Tue

If Jonathan had any delusions of ultimate triumph, they are dispelled once Giles strides onto the battlefield. Giles' Ripper-ific presence awes the geek, and Jonathan falls to the floor in worship, begging Giles to teach him the mysteries and subtleties of magic. Unfortunately, Giles can't do it, because 1) ME killed off the wrong geek in CWDP, and 2) Giles' BBC miniseries is in permanent limbo. (Maybe in fanfic...)

[> Re: Giles vs Jonathon -- Apophis, 21:10:53 08/26/03 Tue

I don't really have anything witty or violent to say about this match. Giles would simply slap Jonathon around until he soiled himself and leave in disgust. Not even the might of the Magic Bone can stand up to a pissed off librarian.

[> Ouch. Poor Jonathan. -- HonorH, 21:43:33 08/26/03 Tue

One good glare from Giles and he's toast. It ain't pretty. Moving on . . .

[> Re: Giles vs Jonathon -- Celebaelin, 01:33:49 08/27/03 Wed

Don't taunt the nerd, not that he can do anything about it, it's just tacky. Giles of course.

[> the Watcher has a few more lessons to impart -- MaeveRigan, 05:38:14 08/27/03 Wed

Giles would never kill a repentant Jonathan, of course, but he's more than capable of grilling him most unpleasantly for all the additional agony Jonathan and his two cronies caused Buffy after her return to life. I'm betting Jonathan won't put up more than token resistance, either. He knows he's got it coming. Maybe afterwards they'll finally let him join the Scooby gang...

Isn't this all theoretical, given that Andrew murdered Jonathan already? Oh well!

[> Holy Cow! -- Anneth, 17:54:59 08/27/03 Wed

Giles is winning by a pretty substantial margin. Nevertheless, my vote went to Jonathan. Because, frankly, Jonathan is dead. So, for Giles to fight him, he'd have to be reanimated somehow - zombie, vampire, whatever. I'm gonna say Jonathan comes back as a zombie and goozes all over Giles' glasses. Giles, disgustedly clucking, pauses to wipe his befouled glasses off but does so by mysteriously lying on the ground while counting to ten. Zombie-Jonathan wins.

Darby -- Speculation on a World of Slayers, 06:50:24 08/27/03 Wed

Thought I'd take an Alan Moorish jaunt through the New Buffyverse.

For those who don't know, Moore rewrote the rules of comics by trying to work RealWorld issues into them, kind of a, "Okay, what would our world be like if there really were a few folks with superpowers and poor fashion sense?"

In the Buffyverse, pre-Chosen, the super-powered were mostly in an underworld actively hidden from the humans, who were more than willing in areas of high activity to ignore things that conflicted with their comfortable worldview.

But now there are super-powered girls and women all over the globe, presumably aware of the underworld (part of the less-discussed aspects of the Slayer awakening, the demon dreams and psychic connection to previous Slayers' lives) but not so inclined to hide it or themselves as Watcher-trained Slayers. Even if you ignore the possibility of a few Faiths in the mix, there have got to be a few very-public dustings or Ted-type incidents brewing.

There may be another reason why Angel Investigation's profile has risen. Do Wolfram and Hart need them to deal with this new threat to their plans?

What other changes should this produce in the post-Sunnydale world? I figured, it's the Dog Days, time for some lazy speculation.

[> Implications -- Gyrus, 09:18:04 08/27/03 Wed

One thought is that the various governments of the world will want to recruit (or otherwise obtain) Slayers to be Special Ops soldiers, spies, or research subjects. Wolfram & Hart might want to get their hands on Slayers for similar purposes. For the surviving Scoobies, finding the new Slayers and protecting them from this sort of exploitation will probably become a major part of their new mission.

If the existence of Slayers gets out to the general public, things could get really wiggy. Slayers might become celebrities, or they might be resented or feared for their supernatural abilities. Wild conspiracy theories would abound about where Slayers come from and what their real purpose is. Some might even think the Slayer phenomenon is an elaborate hoax.

Also, knowing about Slayers would mean knowing about vampires and all the other supernatural stuff in the world. That could cause religious revivals among the general public and chaos in the scientific community, who would be at a loss to classify demons, explain the physics behind magic, etc. (Fred could find herself at the forefront of a new scientific discipline.) A revelation of the supernatural world could also lead to a lot of finger-pointing at governments or the Slayers themselves for keeping people in the dark about the threat that vampires and demons pose.

The possibilities seem endless.

[> [> I think, at first, it will be considered a medical phenomenon by most -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:07:15 08/27/03 Wed

Some evolutionary or environmental thing that has caused certain women to increase their adrenaline use to extreme levels. Remember, even the government seemed to believe that demons and vampires weren't supernatural. It could take a few years before other supernatural forces come to the general public's knowledge as well. I imagine that the current divide between liberals and conservatives would become even wider. For those who talk about the Bible being infallible, the existence of demons is bound to make many go, "I told you so!" However, I also think some of them might not be too fond of Slayers, viewing them as not much different than demons. Liberals would probably be very accepting of Slayers, but might start viewing vampires and demons as misunderstood creatures.

Few other pieces of speculation:

Willow would continue to advance her magical power as the years pass until she's able to form a group of Slayers and protect them from outside influences.

People would start experimenting with magic more, causing many lethal accidents.

Anne Rice's book sales would shoot through the roof.

More people than usual prophecising the end of the world.

At least a few Slayers, left without Watchers, might try dressing up as superheros.

Vampires and demons start to cut deals with large corporations.

Well, there are so many possibilities with this, we could probably never guess them all.

[> [> [> Or a training breakthrough -- Darby, 11:07:48 08/27/03 Wed

In a real world of Potentials (who, we've been told, are not normal girls), many would be already considered gifted athletes and the Slayer activation would up their abilities - but I expect their coaches would take credit.

[> [> [> [> I think that the big difference of ability would clue people in -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:28:35 08/27/03 Wed

No human being can do the things a Slayer can do without some kind of supernatural or super-science assistance. I think the big leap would make them aware that something had changed.

Also, not everyone who could be a gifted athelete actually becomes a gifted athelete. Many potentials may never have gotten into sports and so never realize that they were above average until, after being called, they accidentally use too much strength for some everyday thing (like slamming a door closed).

[> [> [> [> Slayers in sports -- Gyrus, 13:14:27 08/27/03 Wed

Brings up a good point -- if the general populace knew about Slayers, athletic teams might try to recruit them. I don't know if professional men's teams have rules against women competing in them, but if not, Slayers could end up playing in the NBA or MLB for multi-million dollar salaries. There's also the Olympics; even if the IOC made a rule against Slayers competing, it would be nearly impossible to enforce without some kind of Slayer-detection test.

[> [> [> there'll be a whole new line of "nutritional" supplements... -- anom, 13:06:28 08/27/03 Wed

...& a whole new category of Internet spam. There'll be products like SlayerFUEL!, SlayPower, & for men, MascuSlay, all claiming to give ordinary people something approaching Slayer strength...naturally!!! (& ephedra-free!). Of course, this will be couched in vague language no one could base a fraud charge on: "May help boost metabolism for enhanced power!"

If Buffy trademarked "Are you ready to be strong?" she's set for life!

(BTW, Finn, why do you think it's based on adrenaline? Giles' line in Helpless? The shots he gave Buffy had adrenaline suppressors but also muscle relaxants, & a drug given to counteract a bodily process doesn't always work directly against the major chemical involved in that process. I have a feeling it's more complex than just adrenaline.)

[> [> [> [> I'm just saying that extra adrenaline would probably be the first assumption . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:34:32 08/27/03 Wed

Without knowing the mystical cause, adrenaline would seem to me to be the most likely scientific explanation.

[> [> Then there's the more metaphysical side...(A:ts S5 spec included, no spoilers) -- Kate, 20:33:11 08/27/03 Wed

How does having (I'm assuming here) at least hundreds, if not more, slayers activated all at once affect the power balance between Good and Evil? Does this actually even things out more or will the scales tip too heavily towards the side of Good now. This is obviously a concern otherwise someone like Whistler wouldn't exist and be working for TPTB. Then there is also the question of the slayer line itself...will more slayers be called if any of the ones currently activated die? Or has the line been "used up" sort of speak?

For these reasons it would be cool to have a Buffy character make a guest apperance b/c then the writers would have to give us at least a little bit of info on what everyone is doing post-"Chosen." I'd love to know how they (the writers) picture post-Sunnydale life for the gang and how they are dealing with the newly activated slayers. :)

[> [> [> What was Whistler really there for? -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:00:50 08/27/03 Wed

Was he there to just even the scores between good and evil, or to help good play catch up? He did once remark to Angel, "You're lucky we need you on our side." That implies that Whistler does have a side.

But I doubt that the sudden change in the Slayer/Demon ratio will be too bad. First off, as long as the Slayers aren't killing those pesky good demons, they're removing creatures whose purpose is to create pain and suffering among people. Second, I bet that demons and vampires will adapt to the increased presence of Slayers; we know vampires can rival Slayers in strength (the Master, Angel, Spike, etc.); I think that vampires of that caliber might start to emerge as an adaptive response to Slayers being everywhere.

[> [> [> [> Re: What was Whistler really there for? -- Sheri, 19:20:52 08/28/03 Thu

Y'know, considering that Whistler was the one who basically brought Angel and Buffy together; and considering that Angel and Buffy coming together (wink wink, nudge nudge) isn't exactly a good thing... I'm wondering if Whistler's side was the good side after all (especially considering that he said he was working for the PTB, and given that Jasmine was a Power that Was, well, I'm kind of losing my confidence in those guys' concept of good/evil)

[> [> [> [> [> How does that fit into his actions regarding Acathla? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:31:37 08/28/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Then there's the more metaphysical side...(A:ts S5 spec included, no spoilers) -- tim, 08:02:05 08/28/03 Thu

Then there is also the question of the slayer line itself...will more slayers be called if any of the ones currently activated die? Or has the line been "used up" sort of speak?

If you take Fray to be canon (and I do, at least, since The Joss himself wrote it), then we know that more Slayers were born and Called all the way down to Fray's time. After the final supernatural creature was expelled from our reality, they stopped being trained, but the Power continued.


[> [> [> [> Fray spoilers -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:59:43 08/28/03 Thu

I'd say that "Fray" definitely is canon. First, its presentation of how the First Slayer was made fits that shown in "Get It Done". Also, the Scythe Buffy found in "Touched" is the same one Fray used. Given that these were brought up in "Fray" before they appeared in Season 7, I think we can count "Fray" as canonical.

[> [> [> Boy, it¥s a good thing AI was closed down! -- grifter, 12:11:01 08/28/03 Thu

With that many Slayers running around their client base is sure to shrink down a bit! Imagine you¥re living off saving people from supernatural evil and then whammo! Suddenly everyone and their sister has super powers too! ;)

[> [> [> I'd say 50-100 Slayers is being generous -- Doug, 20:13:05 08/28/03 Thu

I mean, when you consider that the first had well over eight months, and Every single potential that managed to be rescued totalled up to about thirty, and that gathering that many took months of them coming to Sunnydale (with most of those who came being targeted by bringers), i think that most of the surviving potentials were already in Buffy's war party when the spell took effect. Now, since I'm sure they took some casualties fighting in the Hellmouth so let's say 20-25 left in the war party. Now even assuming the complete incompetence of the First evil 80 potentials surviving unmolested out in the open world after an eight month hunt is stretching things.

[> [> [> [> Except Buffy only got potentials in a certain age range -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:28:27 08/28/03 Thu

The potentials in Sunnydale were all teenagers, as were the ones we saw the First kill. This leads me to believe that the First Evil was only attacking potentials of appropriate age to be called as Slayer. Pre-teen and post-teen potentials might very well have gone unattacked, and so were never sent to Sunnydale. But, Willow's spell seemed to activate a girl no more than 12 years old, meaning women both younger and older than the traditional Slayer Calling age might come into their powers.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Except Buffy only got potentials in a certain age range -- celticross, 00:35:29 08/29/03 Fri come the questions I've been asking since Chosen. At what age will these new Slayer powers manifest, or are there super-powered Slayer toddlers? And does the potential to be a Slayer remain with a woman all her life? Is one of those activated Slayers a woman in her 40's, who wasn't called when Nikki Wood was? Or does it go away when one girl is called? A woman who was a potential slayer in the 1930's (when Sid from The Puppet Show knew the Korean slayer) could still be alive. Is there an age limit, or is Slayerdom an absolute from birth? The more I think about it, the more confused I become. Anyone have any thoughts and/or reasonable speculation?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Except Buffy only got potentials in a certain age range -- heywhynot, 06:45:44 08/29/03 Fri

Well Slayerdom appears to be something you are born with. In Potential, Buffy points out that the skills/abilities/instincts are always there just locked away. Girls appear to be called only when going through puberty. Which might suggest there is a certain physical maturity required for the activation. The abilties of the Slayer appear to be biologically based, hence the drugs way back in Season 3 were able to retard Buffy's talents.

It would be possible that young girls might not have slayer abilities (or slowly develop them) until they are teens and like the rest of their bodies, go through some rapid changes, gaining the Slayer abilties. Women he are older might have those genes totally inactive such that whatever activates the slayer abilities might not be possible in older women. Once called though the genes appear to be always active. This is all conjecture as there are no courses like Molecular Genetics of the Slayer, Physiology of the Chosen, Biochemistry of the One Who Slays. Of course now in the Buffyverse who knows. Some of these girls might be studied. Some in positive ways others in some pretty dirty/unethical ways.

All we really know is that girls around the world were activated & all appeared to be girls/young women. The potential was always inside them. Drugs can retard the abilities of a Slayer.

Based on that we might be able to say that certain girls have a genetic predisposition to be Slayers. Given the expression of genes is based on the environmental factors (which in the Buffyverse include magics), it would be reasonable to say that the majority of girls with the ability were activated by the spell. In theory a few girls who are genetically Slayers might not have the abilities due to factors that prevent the expression of the Slayer genes. Age could be a factor that limits the initial activation of the genes but doesn't hamper them once they are going.

[> How the heck did I manage to put the title-poster up backwards? -- Sheepish-D, 10:04:50 08/27/03 Wed

[> [> Dunno, but "World of Slayers" is a great nickname! -- dub ;o), 13:13:30 08/27/03 Wed

[> [> Did make for an interesting subject title though... -- Kate, 20:25:37 08/27/03 Wed

Definitely made me want to click on it and see what the topic of "Darby" was all about.

My Buffy version of Fighting Evil -- robzombie, 09:57:05 08/27/03 Wed

In the Pilot up to the Final Episode of Buffy preferred those with superpowers to fight evil. In the Harvest Xander wanted to help but Buffy said she was the slayer so he couldn't go but did anyway. In the Zeppo she wanted him out of that fight. After she went with riley and commandos her friends got left out. When Riley lost his superpowers she treated him like he wasn't good enough to fight anymore. With Dawn could tare care of herself but onlt until the season 6 and later proved in seven she could in this battle. But Buffy tried encourage others to fight too.

Does Buffy have weak ankles? -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:59:56 08/27/03 Wed

I'm just mentioning this because on two occasions in Season Seven, she's kicked in the leg and it seems to hurt her. In "Him" the girl Dawn was fighting with kicked Buffy in the leg, and the look on Buffy's face indicated that she felt it, I think. Then, in "Chosen", Dawn kicks her, and she remarks, "ow." Since neither of these two girls had superpowers, it makes one wonder if the secret to bringing down the Slayer is to kick her really hard in the leg? Has any demon ever tried this before?

[> Wouldn't that be weak shins? -- dub ;o), 13:11:12 08/27/03 Wed

[> You mean her Achilles heel? -- LonesomeSundown, 14:28:55 08/27/03 Wed

[> Could this be a metaphor -- Celebaelin, 17:36:38 08/27/03 Wed

For her vulnerabiity as regards men? Her standpoint? Her 'other' leg to stand on?

Or something?


Prophecy Girl: The bird takes flight (Intro) -- Diana, 14:00:16 08/27/03 Wed

When I was in college, a lot of my friends were physics majors and they decorated their walls not with posters of chocolate, but the artistry of computer generated images that showed the Mandelbrot Set. This is perhaps the most well known fractal. A fractal is a geometric pattern that is repeated at every scale and so cannot be represented by classical geometry. Some other examples are Sierpinski triangle, Koch snowflake, Peano curve, and Lorenz attractor. There are some incredibly beautiful fractals out there. A quick net search will give you plenty of sites that show these.

One of the most comprehensive is:
Spanky's Fractal Site

For an explanation of their repetitive nature see: More Fractals

I have used the term Mandelbrot series to describe the way that Joss Whedon writes before. Using this weekís episode for Back to the Beginning, ìProphecy Girl,î I hope to illustrate what I mean by this.

For the non-mathematically inclined, I offer another description. In "Man and His Symbols" John Freeman explains in the Introduction the way that Dr. Jung writes thusly:

The second point I wish to make is about a particular characteristic of argumentative method that is common to all the writers of this book -- perhaps to all Jungians. Those who have limited themselves to living entirely in the world of the conscious and who reject communication with the unconscious bind themselves by the laws of conscious, formal life. With the infallible (but often meaningless) logic of the algebraic equation, they argue from assumed premises to incontestably deduced conclusions. Jung and his colleagues seem to me (whether they know it or not) to reject the limitations of this method of argument. It is not that they ignore logic, but they appear all the time to be arguing to the unconscious as well as to the conscious. Their dialectical method is itself symbolic and often devious. They convince not by means of the narrowly focused spotlight of the syllogism, but by skirting, by repetition, by presenting a recurring view of the same subject each time from a slightly different angle -- until suddenly the reader who has never been aware of a single, conclusive moment of proof finds that he has unknowingly embraced and taken into himself some wider truth.

Jung's arguments (and those of his colleagues) spiral upward over his subject like a bird circling a tree. At first, near the ground, it only sees a confusion of leaves and branches. Gradually, as it circles higher and higher, the recurring aspects of the tree form a wholeness and relate to their surroundings. Some readers may find this "spiraling" method of argument obscure of even confusing for a few pages -- but not, I think, for long. It is characteristic of Jung's method, and very soon the reader will find it carrying him with it on a persuasive and profoundly absorbing journey.

Incidentally, ìMan and His Symbolsî is one of the three books that I think everyone on the planet should read.

ìProphecy Girlî is the first all Joss episode. His earlier endeavors are directed by others. The teleplays for ìNightmaresî was written by David Greenwalt and for ìOut of Sight, Out of Mindî was written by Ashley Gable and Thomas Swyden. This totally Joss episode is the first truly fractal episode. This skirting, repetition, presenting a recurring view of the same subject each time from a slightly different angle -- until suddenly the viewer who has never been aware of a single, conclusive moment of proof finds that he has unknowingly embraced and taken into himself some wider truth is what will make the series stand out above its predecessors and contemporaries. It will be demonstrated in the season long arcs where the season premier encapsulates the emotional arc. It will be shown time and time again as themes are repeated and revisited. It is illustrated with how Joss handles his multiple characters, dividing Buffy up into heart-spirit-mind with Xander-Willow-Giles as well with how other characters, such as Cordelia, Anya and Dawn, are used. Even the secondary characters are used to compare/contrast with each other.

The teaser for ìProphecy Girlî is one full rotation around the tree. This rotation will be repeated several times in the course of the episode. Joss does not write around the plot. He writes around feelings. The arc isnít the plot, but the process that characters go through in regards to their feelings. The plot is just a vehicle for this. This process is shown rather painfully as Xander practices asking Buffy out using Willow as a wall to bounce thing off of.

As with any Joss circle of the tree, it starts with feelings. ìYou know how I feel about you.î ìThereís never been anyone else for me...but you,î will later be echoed Season 7 with ìTouchedî and Spikeís comment to Buffy that ìYouíre the one.î That entire speech of Spikeís is an encapsulation of several that Xander has throughout the series. All conflict in ìProphecy Girlî will start with some statement of how the character is feeling. That is the first branches we see.

Then Xander turns his focus to what the dance is. He tries to get away from his feelings and focus on the situation at hand. We will see that happen again and again and yet again throughout the series. It will eventually lead to Generalissima Buffy. In the Buffyverse, the greatest Cardinal sin is running away from your feelings. In Season 5, it will cause Buffy to even doubt if she can love. In ìInterventionî the Guide will tell Buffy that the only way she will lose her ability to love is if she rejects it.

By going to these two extremes, Xander is able to figure out what he should do, be direct and to the point. He realizes things donít have to be so hard. He isnít running away from his feelings and isnít hiding behind the situation. ìHey, I like you. Let's go to the dance together.î

Then comes up the little matter of practicality. He wants do to it now, he needs to do it tonight, but he canít. Buffy isnít there. Why isnít she there? ìOh, you know, the usual.ì Something as normal as Buffy being asked out on a date canít take place because she is out slaying.

When they cut to Buffy slaying, we donít get our usual edit of Buffy kicking demon bootie. Instead we get Buffy flying in slow motion and landing on her back. No quips, either. She gets the wind knocked out of her when we see her. Not the usual, which foreshadows what will happen with the Master.

This is contrasted nicely with Cordelia making out with Kevin. Buffy recovers and does slay the vampire. The framing in this Joss-directed episode is great. Throughout most of the fight, the car that Cordelia and Kevin are in is in the frame. Xander wants to ask Buffy out. Cordelia is on a date and Buffy is having to slay. Throughout the series we will see her friends having lives and relationships, some guy wanting to give her more than just slaying, but Buffy having to be Slayer.

What does Buffy want? ìThree in one night. Giles would be so proud.î Giles doesnít have time to be proud. He has bigger concerns, namely what he finds in Codex. One thing that carries over even to AtS is a child not understanding how her/his parent cares about her/him.

This is the pattern that will repeat itself in this episode, over the course of seasons and over the entire series. First feelings are stated. Then those feelings are denied/avoided, usually by hiding behind the situation. Next some sort of direct action is decided on. That action is not practical for some reason. Buffy being Slayer will conflict with her desires. Then her immaturity will come into play somehow. This is resolved by discovering what her power is for. The tree that Joss is circling in Jungian terms is called ìindividuation.î The laymanís term is growing up.

Before the bird can make another circle of the tree, giving us a slightly different perspective on this procedure, there is a transition. In the teaser, this transition is how each character handles the earthquake that is the portent for what will come. Iím sure that someone else can/will discuss the symbolism of what happens around each character and how s/he handles it. Thus ends the teaser.


[> Re: Prophecy Girl: The bird takes flight (Next Circle) -- Diana, 14:01:37 08/27/03 Wed

Before they start the next circle of the bird, we see how needy and immature Buffy is. Only thing missing was the lollipop from ìBecoming.î In this case, Buffy uses her normal life to distract from her slayer life and goes ìto meet my terrible fate.ì Since Giles, her slayer father figure, wonít give her what she wants, she will go back to her normal life, but that is also unfulfilling. Biology class was even boring to science nerd Willow. This sets up the next circle of the bird, Xander asks Buffy out.

Xander starts out talking about what he wants. When he gets Buffy alone, even before he asks her out, he says he wants to ask her something. Then he takes his own advice and is direct. ìBuffy, I want you to go to the dance with me. You and me, on a date.ì He gives a beautiful speech about how he likes her. Feelings have been stated. Buffy starts to state hers.

As it becomes obvious that she isnít accepting, Xander starts to hide behind the situation. So does Buffy. She doesnít see him that way. Xander reacts harshly, bringing up Angel without mentioning him by name, which is always more dramatic. ìIím not him.î

The new action is actually inaction. ìYou know what? Let's just not.î This really isnít that practical, since they do go to school together and they are the Scooby gang. Also, as Xander puts it ìYou either feel a thing or you don't.î Xander clearly does, as Angel will point out not only this episode, but as Angelus Season 2. This wonít get resolved until Xander grows up a bit.

Next transition sets the plot up and gives us a bit more color for the secondary characters. Giles calls Angel, thus getting him to the school for the important scene. Jenny gets involved by telling Giles about Brother Luca, contrasting nicely with Luke from ìWelcome to the Hellmouthî and ìThe Harvest.î Much as Jenny brings necessary information to Giles, Willow will be the one to bring Buffy news of what happened in the AV room. Just as Giles isnít forthcoming with information to Jenny, Buffy wonít tell Willow anything.

The nice part of the transition section is Cordelia in love. Xander was lucky. Most of Cordyís boyfriends donít fare well on the show. We have Cordelia even willing to talk to Willow, as Buffy starts to shut her out.

Another good part was Xander bouncing a ball against the wall. Earlier he had bounced ideas about how to ask Buffy out off of Willow. Now he was alone in a room bouncing a ball against a wall. Willow will not be his wall any more and he misses the ball when she leaves. Even in the transition, the pattern holds. First, feelings ìit sucked.î Then hide behind the situation, ìdoes it really matter? She's still jonesin' for Angel, and could care less about me.î Here he says Angelís name. The action is now to ask Willow out to the dance. This time it isnít Buffy desires that conflict with being Slayer, but Xanders desires for Buffy that conflict with hanging with Willow. His immaturity shows in his line about country music.


[> Re: Prophecy Girl: The bird takes flight (Talk about drama) -- Diana, 14:03:30 08/27/03 Wed

Before we end Act I, Buffy sees yet another portent of what is to come, blood out of the faucet. Why does it always have to be blood? She goes to tell Giles and sees him talking to Angel. The sight of Angel makes her happy. She even says his name. Angel is very upset by what Giles is telling him. In this circle, the pattern will repeat upon itself. Everyone is very emotional and the bird flies faster and faster as the episode goes on.

Gilesí words to Angel repeat the pattern. Feeling: I wish to God I were! Situation: But it is very plain. Action: Tomorrow night Buffy will face the Master, and she will die. Angel tries to bring up a reason this is wrong. Buffyís slayerness and immaturity are wrapped up in her reaction which starts the next cycle. Buffyís feelings are stated with her laugh.

She falls back on the situation by talking about ìthe drill.î She goes to the action by wondering how she will be killed. When Angel tries to comfort her, she goes back to feelings. Then she wants to know if Giles was even going to tell her. Next comes her solution, ìI quit.î The way things switch between raw feelings, the situation and her solution after this is dizzying. Add on top of that the emotions Angel and Giles are going through and you have one of the most potent scenes in the showís entire run.

Next transition, Buffy has just disconnected from Giles, Angel and her calling because of her feelings. Xander actually hangs up on Willow he is so lost in his pain. Buffy looks through an album showing her ìnormalî life that she is about to lose. She asks her mother if they can go away. Her mother thinks she knows what is bothering Buffy and shows her the dress.

The exchange here between Joyce and Buffy is beautiful. The pattern repeats in Buffyís reaction to the dress. Feelings: Buffyís look says it all. Situation: We canít afford this. Action: I canít go to the dance. Joyce shares some of her past/normal life with Buffy, involving the union of male/female as she relates the story of how she met Buffyís father. Again the pattern: feeling: Was it awful. Situation: He didnít have a date either? Action: It was a beautiful night. Buffyís Slayerness intrudes with: And you had your whole life ahead of you. Her maturity starts to show with: Must be nice.

More transition to set up the plot with Cordelia and Willow. Even Cordy demonstrates the pattern. Her feelings for Kevin alternate with her annoyance at the situation or her annoyance at not being annoyed. This ends with her finding Kevinís body.

Cut to Buffy in the dress, which Iím sure people will write about, so I will refrain. It is a symbol that is used repetitively in the episode to great effect. From that we go to Joyce telling Buffy about Willow.

As Willow tells Buffy about what happened, the pattern continues. First it is Willowís feelings in general. Then it goes to the situation: I'm trying to think how to say it... to explain it so you understand. Willow doesnít hide behind the situation. She uses it to explain her feelings. There are some powerful lines in this episode, most said by Buffy. Willow has one here, ìit wasn't our world anymore. They made it theirs. And they had fun.î With that line, Buffyís normal and slayer lives collide. She does the mature thing and Willow is the first to say the sentiment that is echoed three times in the episode ìI like your dress.î

Buffyís sad acceptance of her destiny is contrasted with The Masterís jubilant ìSoonî as he sends The Anointed One to get Buffy. Jenny gives the fastest exposition in the history of the show as she is brought into the Scooby Gang.

I love Buffy and Gilesí interaction. The feelings of both of them are so raw. Gilesí immaturity is wonderfully played. This point of the episode is dealing with the situation itself. Just as the pattern played out in individual scenes and in a couple of adjacent scenes where the bird can complete a full circle, it plays out in the entire episode itself. The first parts dealt with the feelings of Xander towards Buffy and Buffy towards her destiny. Now we are dealing with the situation itself. This part of the pattern ends by Buffy hitting Giles and going to face the Master.

[> Re: Prophecy Girl: The bird takes flight (Conclusion) -- Diana, 14:05:48 08/27/03 Wed

The next circle of the tree starts with Xanderís feelings. Xanderís role as heart really takes center stage in throughout this episode. He is used to really drive the emotional arc. He is missing from the most dramatic circle, where Buffy find out about the prophecy, but Angel and Xander exists as a team in this episode (see essay on Xander Season 1 for more).

Xanderís feelings soon give way to accusing Giles of ìletting her goî and figuring out what can be done to help her. He figures out just what needs to be done. ìNo, but I can find out.î Angel explains why Xander cannot help Buffy. Typically in the cycle, there would be a conflict/contrast between Buffyís normal and slayer lives. This is shown in the interaction between Angel and Xander, however, this time the regular life forces the slayer life to help. Brute force is tried with the cross, but it isnít going to work. Xander has to reach Angel and he does with two words ìArenít you?î This shows maturity. Maturity will always win the day in the Buffyverse.

Even the way Xander reaches Angel mirrors the pattern. Xander give his feelings about Angel: I don't like you. At the end of the day, I pretty much think you're a vampire. But Buffy's got this big old yen for you. She thinks you're a real person. Then he moves onto the situation: And right now I need you to prove her right. The action is driven by: Arenít you. Buffyís conflict between normal and slayer is mirrored in Angelís conflict between seeing himself as a monster and Buffy seeing him as a person. The immaturity is shown in Angel being reluctant to help.

Or that part fits into the larger exchange where first Xanderís feelings are given away by how he looks. When he sees Angel he moves directly to the situation and putting up the cross can be viewed much the same as Buffy hitting Giles, direct and to the point. Then this part illustrates the conflict between normal and slayer and it is Angelís inability to deal with this/his immaturity that messes with things. Kwan Yin (Buddhist Bodhisattva of compassion) is the first thing the camera shows in Angelís apartment and she is behind a glass case. This is resolved by Xander managing to reach him.

Back in the library Giles is working with Willow and Jenny. In the earthquake, Gilesí books fell. His books are pretty useless this episode. The answer to this one isnít in a book. It isnít in brute force. It is in growing up. Jenny gave Giles the key piece of information, in regards to the Anointed One being a child. Willow is the one that told Buffy about what happened at school, thus motivating her to go to The Master. Now the three of them try to figure out what to do. Meanwhile, Xander is taking actual action that will lead to Buffyís resurrection.

Then Buffy shows up in The Masterís lair. The feeble banter part of the fight ensues and we see how difficult defeating The Master will be. Weíve never seen a vampire stop an arrow like that. Gulp. Cut to how wonderfully Xander and Angel are getting along. Looks like our hero is in some trouble. Xander and Angel are the feeling part of the circle. The Master gives the situation. Buffy gets blunt with ìDonít be so sure.î Then the Master shows her why that isnít practical, ìYou still don't understand your part in all this, do you? You are not the hunter. You are the lamb.î

The conflict between slayer and normal Buffy and the transition she is making is symbolized by where the Hellmouth is. In ìThe Harvest,î the feeding frenzy was at The Bronze. That is where the dance that figured so heavily into the first part of the episode is being held. That is Buffyís normal life, the reason she put the dress on in the first place.

Willow and Jenny play key roles in Buffy getting the necessary information to face The Master. They are sent to The Bronze to warn people, but this time they are wrong. This episode is about Buffy accepting her destiny, as such the location of the Hellmouth is where she found out about the prophecy. It is where the Scoobies figure out how to defeat the demons.

The Master kills Buffy and rises. Angel knows this and picks up the pace. Xander follows behind him. It is Angel that first finds Buffy and pronounces her dead. Her calling killed her and it is the man that represents this that says it. Xander isnít ready to give up. Buffy will continue to fight for a normal life throughout the series. He manages to revive her and it is her normal life that always saves Buffy. Even in ìThe Gift,î in her decision to die for Dawn, her heart is saved.

Back at school, Cordelia shows up. In the teaser, Cordelia, representative of the normal life that Buffy could have had, was making out while Buffy was fighting. Later in the episode, Cordelia is falling in love with Kevin, as Buffy is rejecting Xander and canít have Angel. Cordelia is with Willow when she discovers the bodies in the AV room. Now it is Cordelia that gets Willow and Jenny to the library as Buffy has to be revived. Jenny tells Cordelia what needs to be done, but Buffy tells Xander and Angel.

Just as Angel was the one that pronounced Buffy dead, he is also the one that tells Buffy that the Master has gone up, just like he told Xander earlier. Buffy comes back stronger and at least for the time being handles her destiny better. When she is revived, her eyes just pop open, showing how her innocence is lost. Once Buffy is revived, she is the one giving commands, whereas Cordelia is screaming for help.

Nice fight scene with plenty of witty banter. Buffy has reconciled her normal and slayer life, for the time being and has been reborn, literally. Her maturity is demonstrated by The Master not being able to hypnotize her any more. The Masterís comments once he is freed show the pattern as well. He relishes his world and when Buffy confronts him, he resorts to the situation ìYouíre dead.î He cuts to the chase with his attempt to hypnotize her. She shows him this isnít going to work. Then he shows the conflict between demon and natural with ìYou laugh when my Hell is on Earth?î With her new maturity, Buffy is able to beat The Master.

The overall pattern plays out. In the beginning of the episode the focus was the feelings of Xander and Buffy. Then the focus became the situation prophecy has created. Buffy accepted the prophecy and went to face The Master. Giles tries to show how this is impractical, but he is no match for a good right cross. The conflict between Slayer and normal life is illustrated in the exchange between Xander and Angel. Her immaturity is shown when she finds out she is not the hunter, but the lamb. Then she grows up and saves the day. This pattern will play out again and again in as minute detail as I have shown here, especially in season finales, in the broader season arcs and in the overall series itself.

Hope you enjoyed that. I will be looking at Joss penned episodes from this perspective for the rest of Back to the Beginning. Sorry if that was a bit hard to follow. The bird can be hard to follow sometimes.

OT: Rules for the Modern Vampire (Humor, link inside) -- Doug, 15:10:54 08/27/03 Wed

Found this on aother board, thought it might get a few chuckles. See if you can spot those ules especially relevant to BtVS and AtS.

[> Re: OT: Rules for the Modern Vampire (Humor, link inside) -- LadyStarlight, 17:11:14 08/27/03 Wed

Heh, thanks for the chuckle, Doug.

Although it was a touch reminiscent of the Evil Overlord Handbook, a copy of which I found once...somewhere...and promptly forgot to bookmark, it's still worth a look.

[> [> Fortunately that site was one of the first I ever bokmarked -- Doug, 17:17:51 08/27/03 Wed

Here you go:

[> [> [> Oooo, thank you so much!! Bookmarking now.... -- LadyStarlight, 21:09:41 08/27/03 Wed

[> [> Re: OT: Rules for the Modern Vampire (Humor, link inside) --
Korina, 12:37:03 08/28/03 Thu

Hi. Just delurking for a moment to share a link to "The Evil Overloard's Guide to Sunnydale". Obviously inspired by the original, and *very* funny.

Korina, heading back to Lurkerland

Book Melee - The Daughter of Time (Spoilers for the whole novel) -- Anneth, 17:12:09 08/27/03 Wed

All quotes and page-numbers are taken from the Scribner paperback (1995) edition of The Daughter of Time.

I loved DoT and look forward to discussing it. Hopefully this essay (some basic thoughts, in something sort-of approaching essay-structure) will get things rolling.


I feel safe even in the midst of my enemies; for the truth is powerful and will prevail . - Sojourner Truth

Truth, they say, is but too often in difficulties, but is never finally suppressed. - Livy

Truth, crushed to earth, shall rise again;Th' eternal years of God are hers;But Error, wounded, writhes in pain, And dies among his worshippers.... - William Cullen Bryant

The Daughter of Time opens with the proverb ìtruth is the daughter of time.î For as much as DoT is about Richard III and physical recovery, at its heart, DoT is about truth. What is truth? What makes something true? How is truth to be found? Homilies and quotations about truthís prevailing abound, but is it really so logical a belief that ëthe truth will outí? DoT, in a sense, answers that question positively. Grantís response to Carradineís disappointment in the final chapters, when Carradine has learned that many men before him have attempted to rehabilitate Richard IIIís reputation, is pragmatic and sensible. He says: ìIf you canít be a pioneer whatís wrong with leading a crusade?î Grant seems to be suggesting that there is no great defining moment, no bright-line between untruth and truth. Truth is already ëoutí ñ it always has been. Itís not a moment, definable by names like ìBCî and ìAD;î rather, it is more akin to an entity, passively waiting for someone to walk up to it and puzzle it out. And once it has been puzzled, it still needs help, for it cannot explain itself. It needs interpreters. It needs soldiers to remind the world of its existence, and to fight for it when it is called into question.

Grantís grumblings about Great Minds and historians throughout DoT indicate that the (arguably) self-appointed soldiers for truth are in fact no such thing. The Great Minds in DoT end up being little more than rumor-mongers, and the historians are portrayed as being so in love with their theories (based on the sanctified rumors expounded by the Great Minds) that they resort to great logical fallacies in order to make the facts fit their theories, acts which Grant understandably looks upon with great disdain.

ìMust have facts,î said Lord Peter. ìfacts. When I was a small boy I hated facts. Thought of ëem as nasty, hard things, all knobs. Uncompromisiní.î - Dorothy L. Sayers

So, the central mystery of DoT is this ñ who killed the princes in the Tower? Or is it? Actually, DoTís mystery is only nominally about who killed the princes and mainly this: how could a man who appears, in a contemporary portrait, to be anything (from a judge to a sufferer of polio) but a murderous monster be known to every schoolchild as just that? This reputation is especially baffling in light of the final chapterís revelation, that many attempts have been made by intelligent and able people to resuscitate Richardís reputation, to no avail. Tey provides the answer towards the middle of the book, when she has Grant realize that the murder of one child is considered a great tragedy, while the murder of many innocents is generally ignored, or even smiled upon benevolently. She has Grant compare the way the historians heíd consulted wrote about Henry VII and Richard III ñ ìRichard III had been credited with the elimination of two nephews, and his name was a synonym for evil. But Henry VII, whose ësettled and considered policyí was to eliminate a whole family was regarded as a shrewd and far-seeing monarch. Not very lovable perhaps, but constructive and painstaking, and very successful withal.î (P. 205)

Itís sad but true to note that murders of groups of people are not uncommon to run across in history. But there is something fundamentally shocking about learning about the callous murder of two little boys. Most people learn of Richardís purported act when theyíre children themselves, making the murder of seeming peers that much more shocking and memorable. As Grant muses while reading a childís history of England, ìthis, after all, was the history that every adult remembered. This was what remained in their minds when tonnage and poundage and ship money, and Laudís Liturgy, and the Rye House Plot, and the Triennial Acts, and all the long muddle of schism and shindy, treaty and treason, and faded from their consciousness.î (p. 37) Each character that Grant interrogates about Richard learned what they did as children, and their prejudices against Richard are similarly childish. Importantly, their reactions when Grant calls those prejudices into question are notably immature. When he points out to his nurse, the Amazon, that Moore was a mere 8 years old when Richard died, and therefore couldnít possibly have any meaningful first-hand knowledge of his reign, she quickly changes the subject.


I like to envision novel structures as three-dimensional objects. For the mystery in DoT, I imagine two funnels connecting at their narrow tips. Grant begins his research with limited resources ñ a contemporary portrait and a couple of primary-school history books. These are the broadest and least-reliable sources, and he quickly begins to narrow his search down by reading ëadultí but recent histories. He then meets Carradine, who brings him earlier histories, ënarrowingí the sources. Grantís realization, that the Richard/Bloody Tower myth is just that (what he calls ìTonypandyî) comes in the exact middle of the novel, when he and Carradine have begun to consult primary sources and realize that there were no contemporary accounts of the murder. This is the narrow waist of the funnels Iíve imagined above. Itís the point in the novel where Grant decides that the only way to figure out the truth of the matter is for them to consult only primary sources, and deduce the truth for themselves. From there on out, the novel ëwidensí again, as Grant and Carradine learn that Richard most likely couldnít have had the boys murdered, and that Henry VII could have, and probably did.

As Grant and Carradine research Richard, and rehabilitate his reputation, each rehabilitates himself, as well. Grant begins the novel bored stiff while laid up in a hospital bed with a badly broken leg and wounded spine, and Carradine enters as a ìwooly lambî in a coat too large for his body and a tyrannical father to appease. By the novelís end, when they feel theyíve recovered the true Richard, Carradine ìwent away looking joyous and light-footedÖ looking thirty pounds heavier and more round in the chest than he had done three weeks agoî (P. 186) and Grant is up and walking, and mere days away from leaving for home. Carradine intends to write a book about their discoveries, proving to his father that heís worthwhile, and worthy of the Carradine name, while Grant has realized why Richard III became a synonym for monstrosity, despite being beloved by his subjects - childish prejudice.

But even childish prejudice can be overcome. When Grant first asks the Amazon about Richard, she admits that the story of his murdering the boys was her ìnightmare when [she] was a kiddie.î (p. 45) The last sentence of the novel, however, finds her evaluating the portrait at Grantís request. Her response to his query of what she thinks of the face is: ìíFunny,í she said. ëWhen you look at it for a little itís really quite a nice face, isnít it?íî Thus the novel closes, with the Amazon, easily the least intellectual, most childish character in DoT, and the one most given to knee-jerk emotional reactions, changing her opinions upon sober reflection.


îFacts are like cows. If you look them in the face hard enough, they generally run away.î - Dororthy L. Sayers

Truth does not come and go. It demarcates nothing. What truth boils down to, in the worlds of science, history and mystery, is fact - the clear-minded, logical connection of facts to other facts to support a theory. One cannot enter into a subject with a hypothesis already formed and then attempt to force the facts to fit it. The historians Grant rallies against in DoT had all made that fatal error; theyíd fallen in love with their own theories and could not bring themselves to part with them, despite the growing number of facts that contradicted those theories. What would be an untenable act in any scientific community had become cannon in history, to Grantís horror. The truth of the matter of the boys in the Tower was not lost, (despite, apparently, Henry VIIís best efforts), merely hidden beneath centuries of emotional childish prejudice about a shocking tragedy. Society is rife with such knee-jerk reactions to what are essentially myths ñ what Grant refers to as Tonypandy. Grant and Carradine walk away from the mystery of Richard III physically and psychologically hale, knowing that the truth is out there, waiting to be brought to light. It wonít come of its own accord, for it cannot. But it can be fought for. Tonypandy will always exist, of course, but so will clear-minded people, ready to do battle.

[> Excellent start to the Melee! -- Sara, 18:29:58 08/27/03 Wed

Great job, Anneth! I loved Daughter of Time but I never have so much good stuff to say! I'm not very knowlegeable regarding English history, and boy is it complicated! Definitely, one of those, can't follow the players without a scorecard topics.

One thing that really struck me, was something I've always wondered about, the connection between family and politics in Europe. I don't quite understand how you use your children as pawns in alliances and actually keep the emotional connection so that the alliance has any meaning. Is family feeling such a basic emotion that even when you're sent off to marry some old, ugly stranger, you'll still be pushing for your faimlies interests? And how certain is the influence the spouse will have over the husband or father-in-law with the power? I've got to admit the timeline regarding the life of the mother of the princes, coming out of sanctuary, being sent to the convent, did really convince me of the Henry as murderer theory. But that really shows how little a mother could interact with her children - how much was Elizabeth seeing the boys even prior to being consigned to the convent? It seems kind of wierd and sad, but is that just my modern sensibilities speaking?

The other aspect I found fascinating was the idea of someone's face giving so much information. Even as someone who doesn't have an ounce of mystery in me, I wonder about how much you can really see in someone's face alone. It's like first impressions, how accurate is appearance and impression?

Question to all the scholars out there - is it an accurate representation of history? It sounded good to me, but I'm gullible! Any fans of the Tudors out there?

[> Preserving-almost finished reading -- sdev, 21:50:47 08/27/03 Wed

Meanwhile, someone recently gave me a website for a Richard III society.

haven't checked it out yet because I'm still reading.

[> Re: Josephine Tey and The Daughter of Time (Spoilers for the whole novel) -- aliera, 05:23:02 08/28/03 Thu

The author was an interesting woman and somewhat of a mystery herself. From an online bio:

Miss Elizabeth Mackintosh, who under the pen-name "Gordon Daviot," wrote a number of plays, the most successful of which was Richard of Bordeaux. She was born and brought up at Inverness and was trained as a physical training instructress. She taught physical training at various schools in England and Scotland, but had not got very far in her chosen calling when she had to return home to look after her father. In the midst of her household duties she began to write and had some short stories accepted the English Review and other periodicals (1920 my note.)

Meanwhile she began seriously to study the theatre and, after writing a number of plays which she did not feel were up to the high standard she had set herself, she wrote Richard of Bordeaux, which was performed at the Arts Theatre in 1932.

The play was so favourably received by the critics that it was produced in the course of the ensuing year at the New Theatre, where it was played to enthusiastic audiences for a whole year and established her reputation as a playwright. Though she was always serious in purpose and displayed an uncommon insight into character, it cannot be said that even Richard of Bordeaux attained that depth of penetration that is the hall-mark of the best dramatic writing, yet it merited criticism on a higher plane than most of the plays of its period.

Miss Mackintosh never attained quite the same success with her later ventures in the theatre, though she came near it in Queen of Scots, which was produced in 1934 and re-established her title to serious consideration after the not undeserved failure of The Laughing Woman, a romanticized dramatization of the relations of the sculptor Henri Gaudier and Sophia Brzeska, though even this contained a more intelligent and persuasive study of an artist than is at all common on the modern stage. The Stars Bow Down, the story of Joseph and his brethren, was published in 1939, and had to wait some 10 years before it was produced at the Malvern Festival. Meanwhile another play on a Biblical subject, The Little Dry Thorn and a somewhat bloodless drama, having for its subject conditions in Roman Britain towards the end of the second century, was produced and received respectful attention from the critics but little public support.

Though she was best known as a playwright, she continued at intervals to publish novels and short stories, and under the pen-name "Josephine Tey," wrote a number of detective stories in which a distinctive quality, usually historical, enhanced the ingenuity which is the main attraction of this kind of fiction. Her last work was a study of Morgan, the pirate, under the title of The Privateer.

One of her pastimes was studying psychology and trying to discern personality traits from facial characteristics, which she revealed indirectly through such characters as Alan Grant and Lucy Pym, who also analyzed faces. "Lucy had long prided herself on the analysis of facial characteristics," wrote Tey in Miss Pym Disposes. One anecdotal observation was that long-nosed people tended to stay and listen to park orators, while short-nosed people walked away. Gordon Daviot could be described as an amateur psychologist who was fascinated by the destructiveness of vanity, the hazards of judging by appearance, and the misguided prejudices that drove people to make errors in judgment.

Although she used every possible means to discover the psychological makeup of others, she was unwilling to reciprocate by sharing her deeper thoughts. She suffered from a certain shyness--an unwillingness to meet strangers which was described as almost pathological in its intensity.

She termed herself "a lone wolf" and generally discouraged attempts at fraternization. She was seldom seen in London, shunned photographers and publicity of all kinds, and gave no interviews to the press. The sudden fame she achieved after Richard of Bordeaux didn't appear to make her any more sociable than she had been before, and she disappointed many of her fans by not appearing at many of the social functions to which she was invited.

Miss Pym Disposes reveals Daviot's fascination by the fragile nature of justice, and how the official application of justice can result in injustice. "What could never be remedied was the injustice of it. It was Lucy's private opinion that injustice was harder to bear than almost any other inflicted ill. She could remember yet the surprised hurt, the helpless rage, the despair that used to consume her when she was young and the victim of an injustice. It was the helpless rage that was the worst; it consumed one like a slow fire." Lucy considers that once the machinery of man-made law was set into motion, it "would catch up in its gears and meshes, and maim and destroy, the innocent with the guilty."

Gielgud related, "I know that all the work she published under the name of Gordon Daviot was particularly dear to her, while her novels and other books, some of them published with great success under the name Josephine Tey, she would refer to as her 'yearly knitting', as if they were of little account to her." In The Daughter of Time, she makes a sly reference to a playwright working on "one of her awful detective stories."

She had a sparkling, biting wit, which she used ruthlessly on occasion. Once, when asked by the Rector of The Academy whether she could mention anything acquired during her schooldays which had proved helpful in her career, she replied, "...the four-leaved clovers I so often found, at interval-time, in the playground, were responsible for my great, good luck."

She had a great interest in history and strove to distinguish fact from legend by painstaking and detailed research. As Brent Carradine says in The Daughter of Time, "Give me research. After all, the truth of anything at all doesn't lie in someone's account of it. It lies in all the small facts of the time. An advertisement in a paper. The sale of a house. The price of a ring."

The Daughter of Time (1951) brought the controversy surrounding Richard III and the Princes in the Tower to a wide public audience and is perhaps the most popular defense of Richard. This mystery novel addresses the issue of historical truth.

Inspector Alan Grant, trapped in a hospital with a broken leg, is bored senseless. Because he fancies himself to be an expert on faces, his friend, Marta Hallard, a famous actress, gives him some portraits to study. In the portrait of Richard III, he sees power and suffering in the face of a man of conscience and integrity. Is it "a judge, a soldier, a prince? Someone used to great responsibility, and responsible in his authority. Someone too conscientious. A worrier, perhaps a perfectionist. A man at ease in large design but anxious over details. A candidate for a gastric ulcer."

Grant is dismayed to discover that it is the portrait of one of the most infamous villains in history, the "monster" said to have murdered his nephews to obtain the crown of England. How could he have misjudged? Grant decides that he will read everything he can find to discern the truth of the matter. With his detective skills and reasoning ability, he hopes to solve the mystery the missing princes.

Tey keeps the pace lively by the constant activities of contemporary characters, while Grant's "flashbacks" to the past through the reading of historical sources guides the reader stepwise through the collection of evidence, such as it is, and the reasoning process.

Grant's research is very similar to a modern day criminal investigation, except that the witnesses are long dead and left behind little tangible evidence. Grant cross-compares facts from the various sources to try to forge a logical scenario. He discovers that once an erroneous account is published, it is often unquestioningly accepted as true. Historians subsequent to Sir Thomas More (in particular, Hall and Holinshed) appear to have accepted More's account as indisputable, when in fact he could have only obtained his information secondhand (most likely from the highly-prejudiced Bishop Morton.)

In today's courtroom, such "evidence" would be inadmissible as "hearsay." Josephine Tey/Gordon Daviot addresses the question, in this book and others: "How much of history is solidly grounded in fact, and how much is it malleable for the sake of political expediency?" In The Daughter of Time, Inspector Grant eventually tries to dig up sources contemporaneous with Richard III to eliminate the Tudor bias. In writing Richard III, Shakespeare's goal was to write a compelling drama, and historical accuracy was sacrificed for the sake of plot. Because it was widely believed in those days that Richard III had had his nephews murdered, he was a logical villain; Shakespeare only needed to superimpose exaggerated physical deformities and a Machiavellian-inspired personality to create an unforgettable character.

In The Daughter of Time, Grant bounces ideas off of the other people in his life--nurses, doctors, and acquaintances to illustrate the reactions of varying personalities to the information he discovers; this gives him opportunities to expound on his findings and theories. The characters include the previously-mentioned Marta Hallard, the busy, efficient, no-nonsense Nurse Ingham ("The Midget"), the sympathetic and helpful Nurse Ella Darroll ("The Amazon"), and Brent Carradine, an American student who obtains research materials for Grant and discusses the issues with him at length.

This mystery demonstrates that once an idea, right or wrong, becomes "fixed" in a culture, people resist changing their opinions on the matter, even in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. (From the Richard the Third Society, Josephine Tey

[> Re: Book Melee - The Daughter of Time (Spoilers for the whole novel) -- sdev, 13:53:04 08/28/03 Thu

Thank you for the well done essay. I liked your visuals on the shape of the novel. Very inventive.

I once heard that there are two kinds of people-- science fiction readers and mystery readers. I am of the latter reading persuasion and have read a number of Ms. Tey's mysteries.

This one is unique in that the "mystery" is the historical question of what happened to the two nephews of Richard III, the two sons of King Edward IV who died in 1483, who were next in line for the throne of England? The entire mystery is solved from the hospital bed of Inspector Grant. The denouement is not the usual ëwho dunnití but rather the question of how and why has the truth been swallowed by history and a lie been set in its place.

For as much as DoT is about Richard III and physical recovery, at its heart, DoT is about truth. What is truth? What makes something true? How is truth to be found? Homilies and quotations about truthís prevailing abound, but is it really so logical a belief that ëthe truth will outí? DoT, in a sense, answers that question positively.(Aneth)

I agree with the notion of the quest for truth but I am not sure the ending--that truth will out--is so assured. After all several generations, as Carradine discovers, have already written and published the lie to the story of Richard III. Yet the lie prevails.

And once it has been puzzled, it still needs help, for it cannot explain itself. It needs interpreters. It needs soldiers to remind the world of its existence, and to fight for it when it is called into question. (Aneth)

Yes, this is the crux. Grant reassures Carradine that he can still fill a valuable role in leading a ìcrusadeî for truth in this generation. The implication is that the publication of truth is an ongoing process requiring, as you aptly put it, soldiers to wage the war. But why?

Two critical quotes from the book on the subject of truth. The first is from a letter Grant receives from his niece, Laura, responding to his announcement that he is looking into the history of Richard III:

It's an odd thing but when you tell someone the true facts of a mythical tale they are indignant not with the teller but with you. They don't want to have their ideas upset. It rouses some vague uneasiness in them, I think, and they resent it. So they reject it and refuse to think about it. (DoT, Ch.11)

The second later quote is from Grant after he reads a historical account by a historian, Dr. Gardner, whom Grant refers to as a ìcontortionistî for twisting reason to fit the facts:

Perhaps there was something in Lauraís theory that human nature found it difficult to give up preconceived beliefs. That there was some vague inward opposition to, and resentment of, a reversal of accepted fact. Certainly Dr. Gardner dragged like a frightened child on the hand that was pulling him towards the inevitable. (DoT, Ch.14)

This is the reason truth requires crusaders. The problem is not just the historians because, as the book ultimately points out, there were several other books published in the Seventeenth, Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries which gave the lie to the Moore/Bosworth/Shakespearian version of Richard III. Yet the lie persists even insofar as what school children are taught and their textbooks. People do not want to give up their beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. They do not want their worlds shattered. That is the explanation for the ever present ìTonypandyî.

The glimpse at court intrigue was also fascinating and quite foreign to modern day sensibilities, as Sara points out.

I've always wondered about, the connection between family and politics in Europe. I don't quite understand how you use your children as pawns in alliances and actually keep the emotional connection so that the alliance has any meaning. Is family feeling such a basic emotion that even when you're sent off to marry some old, ugly stranger, you'll still be pushing for your faimlies interests? (Sara)

At the end Grant points out that Richard III had quite a bit of family feeling and treated his family quite well:

It was remarkable how the atmosphere of family feeling permeated the whole story. All the way from Cicelyís journeyings about in her husbandís company to her sonís [Richard III] free acknowledgement of his brother Georgeís boy as his heir.

And it occurred to him for the first time in full force just how that family atmosphere strengthened the case for Richardís innocence. The boys he was supposed to have put down as he would put down twin foals were Edwardís sons, children he must have known personally and well.
(DoT, Ch.16)

Aliera, thank you for pointing out that Tey was a playwright. I had no idea, but it makes sense to this novel especially. To me this reads a lot like a play. It is a bit static. I guess I did not find the pace as lively as you. I think this is my own quirkóI have trouble with plays, and movies or books where the scene doesnít change like on a ship or in this case hospital room. But overall a good read.

[> Pointless Personal Anecdote - but not OT -- Dead (but not, alas, vilified by The Bard) Soul, 22:50:08 08/28/03 Thu

First off, I must confess that I didn't re-read Daughter of Time for the melee. It's been many, many years since I've read it, but I did read it over and over again in high school and I would still consider it one of my favorite books.


Setting the Scene: Medium-sized high school in a medium-sized city, thirty miles north of that bastion of erudition, Branson, MO. A city that calls itself "The Queen City of the Ozarks" and counts as its cultural crowning glory, the Bass Pro Shop.

In my high school freshman English class we were given an assignment to write and present a persuasive speech. In the spirit, if not the talent, of Josephine Tey, I wrote a speech about the weakness of Henry Tudor's claim to the throne and the "fact" that, even if Richard III were overthrown, there were many, more dynastically-qualified, candidates kicking around and scheming in corners (the only one coming to mind right now is the Earl of Richmond and even that one I may be remembering wrong - it was a long damn time ago).

What I do remember is, incited by DoT, feeling incensed about the injustice done to Richard III's memory by Shakespeake, More, et. al., and the blank looks on the faces of my classmates and teacher as I wound to my irrefutable conclusion.

I think I made a good grade on the paper and learned the same valuable lesson that Chris Epps (?) taught Willow in SAR, that if you confuse the teacher, they'll give you a good grade just so as to appear that they understand.

I won't bore you with the story of presentation I made in junior Social Studies (what they called History) class that was supposed to be about the Mayans and which I decided to do a compare/contrast of the Quetzalcoatl myth and the New Testament and thought I'd invented comparative religion. What made it especially amusing is that the Social Studies teacher was the boys basketball coach. The look on his face...

I warned you this was completely pointless. Thanks for indulging my shockingly (or not so) of-no-possible-interest-to-anyone-else-on-the-planet attack of nostalgia.

[> Preserving... -- Masq, 22:54:03 08/31/03 Sun

Connor vs Lilah --
JBone, 20:10:59 08/27/03 Wed

When you think about it, the first woman you boned is the closest thing you've ever had to a mother. (gasps) Screwing your mom and trying to kill your dad. Hmm? there should be a play.

yesterday's results

I've gotten in touch with all the tiebreakers for the scheduling of the upcoming weeks except for TCH, and Rob. I know Rob's on duty this week, but I heard back right away from dub and deeva, and besides there not being a tie (yet), they matched up for what might be the close ones. But who knew Rob would be so hard to get a hold of? TCH, if you're reading this, you're up next week.

This week I emailed the weeks schedule out to the Council on Sunday night, so they could email me their votes for the week all at once. It's worked pretty well, but I'm still doing it on a trial basis. The Council members still have to cast their own regular votes on the day's matchup.

I'll be taking a four day weekend after tomorrow's matchup. As is the custom in America during Labor Day weekend. For our friends who are not familiar with this, in America, we take an average of a week's vacation every summer. This is not counting the occasional three or four day weekend we may hit over the summer. But to celebrate the fact that we have jobs and take very little time off compared to our European friends, making us the economical power that we are, the first Monday in September is a National holiday named, Labor Day. Now, not every American will get the day off. But those of us who are working are being compensated for it, or are being allowed to keep their jobs for working the holiday. Happy Labor Day everyone!

[> Excellent matchup, but it comes down to this.... -- cjl, 21:21:13 08/27/03 Wed

Who do I want to see reappear in ANGEL Season 5? Connor, with or without his pseudo-vampiric powers and full assortment of Oedipal issues, or Lilah's evil smirk and smoldering presence? I think we all know the answer to that one. (Sorry, kid.)

[> Tough matchup. -- HonorH, 21:45:25 08/27/03 Wed

Lilah's smart and vicious, yet couldn't tell who her real enemy was until it was too late. Connor's the tragic innocent who got screwed over so many ways that by the end, he couldn't even tell what way was up. In the end, Lilah got herself reanimated into eternal service to the Senior partners. Connor, OTOH, got what he'd wanted all along--a family and a life of his own. So I say Connor wins.

[> Age and treachery, baby! -- Apophis, 22:07:29 08/27/03 Wed

I say Lilah wins for the simple reason that she'd cheat. The Senior Partners went to all the trouble of reanimating her decapitated corpse, so they obviously want her around for something. Ergo, they'd probably allow her to utilize W & H's resources to punk out some whiny little dhampir (since they never really got anywhere with him anyway). And let's be honest: Connor really wasn't THAT clever. Everyone and her mother was yanking him around by his shorthairs at every turn; he's like dog, so desperate for affection that he'll fetch for anyone with a stick. Even if the Senior Partners wouldn't let her drop a safe on him (probably the only way to kill the little bugger), all she'd have to do is smile at him and twirl her hair and he'd be convinced that they were soulmates and he should kill Angel for her (of course, Connor would've killed Angel in exchange for half-empty box of Cheerios, but still...). So, let's review: Connor = kind of slow, slave to the gaping emotional void in his little teenaged soul; Lilah = smart, resourceful, evil, nice shoes, access to nuclear weapons (W & H probably know people in the Russian mafia). Connor will be getting coffee for Ms. Morgan before the ten count.

[> [> Connor wasn't dumb. -- HonorH, 22:15:02 08/27/03 Wed

Only badly inexperienced with humans. We learn how to tell when someone's lying to us before we hit double digits. He couldn't have--he grew up with only one human for company, and Holtz was questionable. His brain never had to work in that way before he was dumped into a sea of humanity. Thus, he was easy pickings for those who wanted to use him, and use him they did.

[> [> [> Okay, not dumb, just ignorant. -- Apophis, 23:38:07 08/27/03 Wed

Not a sin, but beat is beat.

[> Oops- sorry Jay -- Tchaikovsky, 01:02:02 08/28/03 Thu

I did get that e-mail, and am loosening my critical faculties muscles as we speak. Should have responded though, apologies.

And thanks for organising this thing- it's excellent fun.

And Vote Connor everybody.


[> Never underestimate -- MaeveRigan, 07:40:18 08/28/03 Thu

...the power of an evil woman. Come on, guys, we know Connor's a sucker for powerful, evil women. He fell for Cordelia, he was thrilled by Faith, the dark Slayer, even though she was all rehabbed and fighting for the Right. Jasmine had him at "hello"--or maybe even before hello--my memory's a bit hazy, what with the mind-bending and all. Lilah won over Wesley, and she'd twist Connor 'round her pinky-finger in a trice...then break his heart, just like all the others. Poor baby.

[> I'm rooting for a tie -- d'Herblay, 11:08:18 08/28/03 Thu

I know it's against the spirit of the contest, but I'm rooting for a tie. And I think it can be done. The contest is close enough now that it could end deadlocked. And as for this tiebreaker council? My guess is that if dub can forgive Lilah her nefarious tactics against the beloved Clem, she'll go for the wiseguy of wise women. Deeva, on the other hand, lives in the same city as Masq, so she'll vote for Connor if she knows what's good for her. Just as long as I can keep Rob distracted with bright, shiny objects (yeah, yeah, the best bright, shiny objects ever, yada yada), we should be able to pull out a tie, and the combination of Connor and Lilah will be able to dominate the rest of the tournament.

[> [> Re: I'm rooting for a tie -- Masq, 13:20:32 08/28/03 Thu

Connor marches into Lilah's office, demanding to be told what she knows about his origins. With his hands at her throat and her back against the wall, Lilah deftly signals security. But when they arrive, grunge-wearing boy knocks them out with a gravity-defying one-two kick, then leaves her office to chase down a more challenging opponent. Lilah tags along in next Fall's pumps until she realizes he's not looking for the exit.

Lilah returns to her desk to file her nails and her legal briefs, and write about her fashionista quotient in her Live Journal. She has wisely decided to stay out of any further competition.

[> [> [> I sense a smidge of mocking here? -- deeva, 13:59:18 08/28/03 Thu

It's just a niggling little thing in my brain. ;o)

And of course Lilah would stay out of it. It wouldn't do to snap the heel of her favorite Blahnik's.

[> [> [> [> Well, one of the reasons I identify... -- Masq, 14:59:17 08/28/03 Thu

with Connor is because he's completely fashion-challenged.

I was just saying to my realtor today, "Oh, this condo with this tiny closet would be perfect for me. I don't have many clothes anyway. It'll be big enough for my wardrobe."

And she says to me, "And both your shoes."

I am both mocker and mockee.

Coming to the board meet, Deev?

[> [> [> [> [> Unfortunately not -- deeva, 23:13:13 08/28/03 Thu

I will be out of town. But I look forward to more pics! And raise my glass of whatever handy at the appropriate time.

[> Really tough matchup! -- Anneth, 14:56:00 08/28/03 Thu

I've thought long and hard about this fight, but I don't think that Lilah, with all her reanimated corpse/lawyer smugness and caginess and contacts could withstand a full-on Connor-assault. That boy is just too enraged and too powerful. Connor's quick and Connor's tortured, and I see Connor walking away.

[> It's a draw -- Sheri, 16:34:15 08/28/03 Thu

Lilah signed a contract with Wolfram and Hart... and as we know, you just can't break a contract with those guys. So even after Connor mops the floor with her, Wolfram and Hart will just put her back together and reanimate her... it'd just go on and on. And cause Connor's probably involved in some sort of prophesy that Wolfram and Hart has some sort of interest in (cause that's just what they do!), they won't let Lilah head over to the armory to fetch a granade launcher. I'm guessing Connor is feeling a bit jaded when it comes to women, so any sweet talking that Lilah will try just won't work.

[> Much as I love Lilah... -- Caira, 20:58:39 08/28/03 Thu

... this time, she's gonna stay decapitated. Connor arranges for a change of venue and as ubuquitous as W&H are, they have no presence in Quor-toth...

See Jane Date (starring Charisma Carpenter) reruns at 8pm tonight -- tomfool, 09:04:54 08/28/03 Thu

This Charisma Carpenter comedy reruns here on the West Coast tonight at 8 on FAMP cable. I'm not even sure what station that is. I didn't see it on the first run, so may check it out.

[> Re: See Jane Date (starring Charisma Carpenter) reruns at 8pm tonight -- skyMatrix, 20:08:30 08/28/03 Thu

ABC Family, formerly known as Fox Family Channel, formerly known as The Family Channel. Aren't you glad to know all of this? :)

Buffy and Kendra - As Slayers -- Claudia, 09:54:58 08/28/03 Thu

Someone brought up this topic on another forum. This person questioned the belief that Buffy was a more successful Slayer, because she utilized her friends in her battle against evil, whereas Kendra followed the WC's code about working alone.

I cannot help but question this assumption, also. Actually, what I am questioning is the assumption that Kendra died, because she failed to adopt Buffy's more flexible style of using friends as help, instead of acting as lone wolf. After seeing "Becoming, Part 1", my doubts have deepened even further.

[> Re: Buffy and Kendra - As Slayers -- Liam, 10:16:56 08/28/03 Thu

You have a point, Claudia, especially as I never saw Buffy fighting a fully recovered Drusilla. How can we be sure that she would not have met the same fate as Kendra?

[> [> Re: Buffy vs. Dru -- Ames, 13:59:53 08/28/03 Thu

Lest we forget, Kendra was there precisely because Buffy did face a similar hypnotizing vampire, i.e., the Master in Prophecy Girl. Buffy made the mistake of trying to face him alone, but she survived because she had friends to rescue her and revive her.

It's not clear if Buffy would have done any better against Dru in the fight where Kendra died in Becoming 1, but a case could be made that Buffy would have been trying to save her friends as a top priority instead of fighting on her own as Kendra did. That might have made a difference: if she had been able to help Xander or Willow or Giles, they might have been able to help her in turn.

Buffy did fight Dru directly at least once, but there was no opportunity to use hypnotizing power, and it was a draw.

Buffy also faced a hypnotizing vampire at least once more, of course - Dracula. In that case he worked his power more slowly, and Buffy seemed to break free on her own in the end. But maybe it was because Buffy's friends wouldn't leave her alone, and insisted on butting in to whatever was happening to her.

Over the whole series, Buffy's friends saved her many times. It was just like any difficult journey - easy to make a costly mistake when you have to do everything yourself, a whole lot smoother when you have companions to help carry the load and back you up sometimes.

And that wasn't the only point made about the advantage of Buffy having friends. It was made very clear that Slayers burn out quickly, lose their edge and develop a death wish when they don't have ties to the world. Buffy's friends gave her those ties.

[> Re: Buffy and Kendra - As Slayers -- heywhynot, 10:54:35 08/28/03 Thu

I would say that Buffy lasted as long as she did because of the Scoobies. Spike pointed this out. Lets face it she woud of remained dead if it wasn't for Angel and more importantly Xander. If it wasn't for the love Willow and Xander had for Buffy, she would of remained in the grave following the events of the Gift. If Kendra had been called & no Buffy and dealt with similar circumstances, I don't think she would of had the same support network to bring her back. Through Buffy, I think Kendra was learning just how absurd some of the teachings of the WC was. Before that she had no reason to question it.

[> This isn't just Kendra... -- ZachsMind, 13:18:36 08/28/03 Thu

I respectfully disagree Claudia.

This is the underlying message of the entire series. The reason why Buffy differs from every other Slayer before her or since is precisely that. I've recently scanned the history of slayers past.

Prior to Buffy, in almost every case, they were loners. Xin Rong had a family, but she also had a death wish. She kept her family at bay, and after Spike killed her, her family sought vengeance. They weren't there to save her from Spike, or from herself. When Nikki Wood died at Spike's hands, she had her son and her Watcher. Her son was too young to defend her, and Watchers? Well, prior to Giles they mostly just watched, and didn't get involved. To our knowledge, Nikki had no other support group. Buffy has the Scoobies, and it's because she refused to walk down that dark alley alone (figuratively speaking) that she excelled when all others before her failed. That's the reason she's come back from the dead not once but three times, specifically because Xander and Willow were there to bring her back from the brink. Specifically because Giles stopped just watching, and became a more active participant, allowing Buffy to follow her intution rather than use his own resources to hammer intuition out of her.

The message of Buffy is that regardless of what tradition may say, the power comes not in being alone and hoarding the power, but in being legion and spreading that power out amongst the support group. The larger the better.

No lone man is an island, and no lone woman is an army. =)

[> [> Re: This isn't just Kendra... -- Claudia, 13:33:14 08/28/03 Thu

The circumstances surrounding Kendra's death in "Becoming, Part 1" seemed to contradict this "support system" theory about Buffy.

[> [> [> I don't follow you.. -- ZachsMind, 14:30:53 08/28/03 Thu

You mean because of how Drusilla killed her?

Kendra didn't have a support group. Just an absent Watcher. Buffy's Scooby Gang did'nt do a good job of being her support group. She needed something more than a surrogate.

Buffy has died, but she's also had people to bring her back. Kendra didn't have that. That's what the theory's all about.

Or are we still not on the same page, here?

[> [> [> [> Dying Alone -- Claudia, 16:16:01 08/28/03 Thu

I'm trying to point out is that Kendra didn't die, because she was following her rule of "Slayers work alone".

She died because she came to Sunnydale to help Buffy and the Scoobies deal with Angeleus. And because Buffy ran off to deal with Angel alone and the Scoobies failed to be an effective "support group" - something they hardly ever do when working with Buffy - Kendra was killed. Kendra's personal philosophy about being a Slayer had nothing to do with her death - something which many have claimed.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Dying Alone -- Rook, 16:27:50 08/28/03 Thu

"And because Buffy ran off to deal with Angel alone"

This is the point you want to be focusing on.

The Scoobs weren't Kendra's friends or support group. The closest thing Kendra had to that was Buffy, and she ran off to deal with Angel alone.

If you look at the way Becoming mirrors WSWB, the point becomes very clear that when Buffy runs off alone, she puts herself and her friends in danger. Kendra's death is the culmination of that.

The failure here isn't the "stick with your friends" philosophy, it's a failure of Buffy to avoid falling into Angel's trap, essentially the same trap The Annoying One used in WSWB.

Kendra's support system ran off to face the Big Bad alone, and left her to guard some people that were essentially strangers, and that's why she died.

[> Re: Buffy and Kendra - As Slayers -- sde4v, 15:24:28 08/28/03 Thu

I thought Buffy was a superior slayer because she 1)used her anger and 2)did not slay by the book but used her intuition/imagination. I thought the pivotal scene on this was in What's My Line 2:

BUFFY: Kendra, my emotions give me power. They're total assets!

Kendra: Maybe. For you. But I prefer to keep an even mind.

BUFFY: Mm. I guess that explains it.

Kendra: Explains what?

BUFFY: Oh, well, when we were fighting, uh, you're amazing! Your technique, it's flawless, it's, hmm, better than mine.

Kendra: I know.

BUFFY: Still, I woulda kicked your butt in the end. And ya know why? No imagination.

Kendra: Really? Ya tink so?

BUFFY: Oh, I know so. You're good, but power alone isn't enough. A good fighter needs to know how to improvise, to go with the flow. Uh-uh, seriously, don't get me wrong, y-you really do have potential.

Kendra: Potential? I could wipe de floor wit you right now!

BUFFY: That would be anger you're feeling.

Kendra: What?

BUFFY: You feel it, right? How the anger gives you fire? A Slayer needs that.

[> [> Buffy's Anger -- Claudia, 16:22:27 08/28/03 Thu

Buffy's anger didn't really help her in "School Hard", when Spike nearly killed her. Joyce did.

Buffy's anger also didn't help her in "Consequences", when Mr. Trick nearly killed her. Faith came to her rescue.

Buffy's anger also didn't help her in "Out of My Mind", when Spike nearly killed her again. The Initiative chip saved her.

And Buffy's anger didn't help her in "Fool For Love", when that vampire staked her in the gut. Riley did.

What I'm trying to say that there is no specific reason why Buffy lived longer than Kendra, despite Mutant Enemy's philosophy. It all depended on the situation and the current mood of the combatants. This reminded me of when Buffy tried to learn why previous Slayers had died at the hands of vampires. There was no specific reason or skill, or anything. ME's theory that a Slayer needed friends, allies, etc. to be a successful Slayer is simply nonsense. It simply depended upon the situation. Considering Nikki Wood's age when she died, I cannot help but wonder at what age she became a Slayer and how long did she last.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Anger -- Diana, 17:09:56 08/28/03 Thu

Don't confuse the needs of the plot with what makes Buffy the Uber-Slayer.

Looking at the exceptions you have provided:

School Hard: Joyce's anger and motherly love saves the day. This is important in the Joyce/Buffy relationship that will be torn apart in Becoming.

Consequences: It is vital that Faith be the one to kill Mr. Trick. (you left off Faith Hope and Trick, where again Faith saves Buffy by staking Kakistos) This is important to the entire Faith arc.

OOMM: Dramatic tension, not a statement about Buffy. Cool way to find out the chip is still working

FFL: Ummm. Buffy's death wish kicked in. Pretty significant. Her emotions were dying S5. Pretty much the whole season is about that.

Kendra was used for specific reasons and she died for those reasons. You can write it off to It's in the script (IITS), but that misses the whole point of Kendra.

When Buffy was trying to figure out why the previous Slayers died, it wasn't that there wasn't a common reason. It was that the Watchers didn't write about that. The WC didn't care why Slayers died. Another one rose to take her place. There was some bonding between Watcher and Slayer (reminded me of the Dragonriders of Pern), and after the Slayer died, the Watcher really didn't investigage why. It was too painful. Perhaps the reason the WC tried to get the Slayer to suppress her emotions was because they couldn't handle their own. Seems to be indicative of the Patriarchy. Men are too weak to handle a woman's sexuality, so WE have to cover up.

Just some thoughts to add to the stew.

[> [> This is interesting -- MaeveRigan, 17:01:12 08/28/03 Thu

Is Claudia just making us re-examine issues and think really hard? Or is she a really astute and more-than-usually-delicate kind of troll?

Re-examining the issues is not a bad thing, of course! But I was watching "Flooded" this morning and was struck by this easily overlooked exchange among Warren, Andrew, and Jonathan:

JONATHAN: It's true, my friends. The way I see is like an interstellar journey. Some people go into hypersleep and travel at sub-light speeds...only to get where they're going after years of struggle, toil and hard, hard work. We, on the other hand...

ANDREW: Blast through the space-time continuum in a wormhole?

JONATHAN: Gentlemen...crime is our wormhole.

ANDREW: But...everyone knows...if the width of a wormhole cavity is a whole number of wavelengths, plus a fraction of that wavelength? The coinciding particle activity collapses the infrastructure.

WARREN: Dude. Don't be a geek.

In other words, BtVS is heavily metaphorical, often even allegorical, and sometimes the metaphor is more important than the details, or whether the scenario would work out if it took place in the "real world," and to ask such questions is geekily deconstructive to the point of pointlessness.

Just MHO, of course. And with apologies and all due respect to Claudia, who surely is a sincere seeker of knowledge, as we all are.

[> I'm confused -- Diana, 16:56:40 08/28/03 Thu

I never got the impression that Kendra was even there to address how important the Scoobies were in terms of help. She shows up first in Marti's well constructed "What's My Line" which about how alone Buffy truly is and how important her emotions are. Buffy's success wasn't in using her friends, but in using her emotions to connect her and empower her.

Would Dru have been able to hypnotize Buffy? Not remotely. Buffy fell for the hypnosis of The Master BEFORE she died. AFTER she died, she was able to harness that anger and other feelings which make her stronger and she exhibits in "When She was Bad" in order to overcome his hold on her. In "Becoming" her emotions are at such a fevered pitch that she finds the strength to be able to kill Angel. Dru didn't have a chance against her.

Buffy is a more successful slayer because she channels her emotions. Well, first she denies them and tries to run away from them (thus we have a show to watch), but her success always comes in acknowledging how she feels and channeling that to make her stronger. The slayer forges strength from pain. The WC tried to make it so the slayers had less pain and more focus, thus unintentionally taking away a source of great strength from them. That is why Kendra died. That is why the various slayers have death wishes.

We can look at "Chosen" and see this in effect. Prior to the Scythe spell everyone looks fearful, including Buffy and the Potentials worldwide. After the spell, that emotion is channeled and they become stronger. They are then able to do what they have to. We saw this happen with Faith in "Orpheus."

We've seen it every season finale. Season 1: Buffy's emotions about dying make her stronger. Season 2: Her emotions allow her to go after Angel. Season 3: Her emotions allow her to save Angel, thus giving her the key to defeating the Mayor. Season 4: Buffy's emotions about her friends lead to the conjoining spell. Season 5: Buffy's feelings for her sister lead to her Gift. Season 6: Buffy's feelings lead to her climbing out of the grave/Xander empowers Willow to feel her grief. Season 7: Buffy's feelings about being alone and losing Potentials lead to the Scythe spell.

That is what makes Buffy more than your typical superhero. It isn't her superpowers that save the day, so much as her empowerment.

[> [> Agree -- sdev, 17:23:47 08/28/03 Thu

I said the same thing in the post above.

Here is a list (partial) of episodes where IMO Buffy's anger played a major role in defeating the Big Bad.

Prophecy Girl
Becoming 2
The Prom
Graduation 2
The Freshman
Harsh Light of Day
I in Team
Buffy vs. Dracula
Get it Done

Improvisation, imagination and intuition were the other indispensible skills in the Buffy package which put her ahead of other slayers.

[> [> [> It's not just anger. The big one is love/compassion/concern -- Diana, 18:13:06 08/28/03 Thu

"Van Helsing" The Movie -- sdev, 15:04:07 08/28/03 Thu

I just read about a movie scheduled to come out 5/04 called "Van Helsing" starring Hugh Jackman and Kate Beckinsdale, directed by Stephen Sommers of "The Mummy" fame. Apparently Dracula, Frankenstein and the Wolf Man stories are all in it.

[> Re: "Van Helsing" The Movie -- Claudia, 16:11:46 08/28/03 Thu

What is it with Kate Beckinsdale and vampire movies?

I understand that she will be playing a vampire in a movie called "Underworld". It's about a 1,000 year long feud between vampires and werewolves. Beckinsdale's character will fall for a werewolf.

[> [> Spoilers for "Underworld" above -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:35:24 08/28/03 Thu

SIT Observation -- Rosie, 10:10:48 08/29/03 Fri

I just watched both "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places" and read some commentaries about it. One character that comes to mind is Rona.

Poor Rona. She made one comment in the latter episode about Buffy's departure and is condemned forever by BtVs fans. They cannot forgive her for that one comment, despite her actions in the finale.

Of all the Potentials, Rona seem to bear the strongest resemblance to Buffy in regard to her reluctance to join the fight against the First Evil. She made it clear in "Dirty Girls" that she had arrived in Sunnydale to seek protection from the Bringers after her, and found herself roped into the war. To make matters worse, she ended up with a broken arm after attempting to help Kennedy (or was it Molly?). Considering her broken arm, it should not have been surprising that she was so bitter against Buffy in "Empty Spaces". Heck, I think Xander felt a little of that bitterness, as well.

Yet, despite all of that, she is forever condemned by the show's fans for one remark. Strange that the others aren't - especially Anya for her comments, and Dawn for kicking Buffy out of the house. No matter how guilty Dawn felt about doing what she did, I still felt a great deal of hostility toward her actions. But I have forgiven her. It is a shame that many of the show's fans cannot do the same for Rona.

[> Re: SIT Observation -- Sheri, 11:14:08 08/29/03 Fri

Well, speaking on behalf of "many of the show's fans", I don't recall ever holding a grudge against Rona. If any of the SITs have met with (IMHO) out of proportion hostility it would be Kennedy. So other than a momentary "Gee, that wasn't a very nice thing to say" (which for me was substantially drowned out by "Holy crap! I can't believe Dawn's kicking Buffy out!"), I never found myself disliking Rona. She had a well-rounded non-Mary Sue-ish personality that I found enjoyable to watch.

[> Re: SIT Observation -- Gyrus, 12:00:27 08/29/03 Fri

Rona did have a negative attitude, generally speaking, but I certainly wouldn't say it was worse than Anya's, or more damaging to the group's efforts than Kennedy's.

[> Re: SIT Observation -- Ames, 12:41:26 08/29/03 Fri

Actually Dawn's betrayal was the worst, and the only one that was unforgiveable. The SITs had no special reason to cut Buffy any slack, and her not-so-loyal friends were only demonstrating the same lack of unqualified support they had already shown on previous occasions going back to Dead Man's Party. But Dawn was family. Buffy went to the wall for her against the wishes of her friends in The Gift, and in return Dawn ends up kicking Buffy out of the house!

[> [> I never thought I'd find myself defending Dawn... -- Gyrus, 13:38:34 08/29/03 Fri

...but I thought she was perfectly justified in asking Buffy to leave. Clearly, Buffy was in no state to lead the group (judging by her suicidal-sounding plan), and she wasn't willing to accept anyone else's leadership, either. Dawn's only alternatives were to (a) go along with Buffy's lame plan and risk getting everybody killed, or (b) ask Buffy to step down. Dawn chose to act in everyone's best interests instead of showing blind loyalty to her sister.

[> [> [> agreeing up to a point -- Sheri, 13:58:14 08/29/03 Fri

While I agree that it was right of Dawn to ask Buffy to step down, there was just something extremely off-putting with the idea of Dawn actually kicking out the person who was paying the bills in order to keep a roof over her head. It would have made more sense if Buffy had suddenly come home to an empty house and a note saying, "Sorry, we just couldn't be around you anymore." After all, with all the vacant houses in town, the others could have just have easily left.

[> [> [> [> Re: agreeing up to a point -- Rosie, 14:09:56 08/29/03 Fri

One, does Dawn really have the right to kick Buffy out of the house, considering that Buffy was her guardian?

And someone commented about Rona and Anya's negative personalities in particular. Who doesn't have a negative personality on that show?

[> [> [> [> Re: agreeing up to a point --
Abracapocus, 14:59:32 08/29/03 Fri

Sheri said:

While I agree that it was right of Dawn to ask Buffy to step down, there was just something extremely off-putting with the idea of Dawn actually kicking out the person who was paying the bills in order to keep a roof over her head.

What bothered *me* in that scene when I first saw it was not the kicking out so much (OK, yeah, the kicking out, too) as the letting her just walk out the door, going out alone into a very dangerous night without so much as a toothbrush or change of underwear. *That's* what left me going "what the??!!!??" at the end of the scene. What, she's not allowed to pack a bag? Or she refuses to even pack a bag? The melodrama felt too stilted and illogical.

The moment did not make sense to me; it felt forced by the writers. And at the time I didn't understand why it was necessary. Unspoiled, I didn't know they were trying to get her & Spike alone, away from the others, for "Touched"--so that Buffy could find her inner strength (which she clearly *wasn't* finding while trying so hard to be a "good general" against an impossible enemy who had her and everyone around her pretty thoroughly demoralized) and go claim the Scythe. Plus they were setting up the opportunity not only to make points about leadership, but demonstrating that while Buffy's attitude had been a problem for a long time, the situation itself was not going to be kind to *any* leader.

Of course *now* I see that Buffy *had* to get out that house and out of that position. She was right that everyone had been expecting too much from her, while still sniping at her. She was doing what she thought she had to do, and couldn't see that she was only making things worse through the exercise of her own fear and despair (which kept her from truly seeing or genuinely interacting with the people who should have been her trusted family and greatest source of strength). Until she found the Scythe and Angel brought the W&H files + amulet, her "army" had neither enough information nor enough strength to fight this foe, and they had too many points of internal dissension to support each other effectively (a situation which the First was delighted to inflame). All they had was fear, overcrowding, inevitable resentments, and disastrous attempts to engage the enemy.

The situation was not healthy (or safe) for any of them, and had to be broken. I just think the way they made that break was not as graceful in the execution as it could have been. With so much new material to establish during season 7 (and introducing the SITs so early that we had to tread water for several weeks with people we didn't know well before these final plot vehicles could be put in motion), the last pieces had to fall into place a bit too abruptly, and all at once. The "kicking out" scene was one of the places where the "click" was too audible, and too sudden. At least for me.

It didn't help that the editing of the kicking-out scene also left us with an emotional disconnect from the logic behind what Dawn was saying. We had too much space between Buffy's statement that she couldn't just watch someone else lead, and Dawn's conclusion that if that's the case, Buffy should leave. That conclusion does make its own sense, and the logic of it is there in the lines of dialog; but when the scene unspooled the first time I was so involved in trying to follow the emotional strains in the room that I just didn't understand where Dawn was getting this idea that she had to throw Buffy out.

It was necessary for Buffy to take a "time out" at that point; and to do that it was necessary to separate her from the group, since she was so painfully convinced that she had to cling to her grim claim that She And Only She Could Lead Them (and that they were all going to die anyway--ahem). The writers had a huge amount to accomplish in only a handful of episodes, and behind-the-scenes realities over the course of the season (not knowing for certain 'til December that SMG wasn't coming back, f'rinstance) left them in a weaker position to do all of that before "Chosen".

So there we were: throwing Buffy out. Here's Fray's Scythe! Here's the Last Guardian (what's a Guardian?)--oops, she's dead! "He had to split." Here's a shiny trinket! Angel breath. "Kinda stings." Boom.

Was that a rant? Oops.

American readers, enjoy the Labor Day holiday!

"Would I know a little more,
or very much less."
Dorothy Parker

[> Re: SIT Observation -- celticross, 14:42:13 08/29/03 Fri

I didn't have a problem with Rona's remark. She seemed to have a fairly broad sarcastic streak, and wasn't afraid to speak her mind despite not knowing these people she was thrown together with. There's nothing about her attitude at Buffy's booting that I found offensive or wrong. Buffy may have believed in her hunch about the vineyard, but she wasn't doing a very good job of expressing it in a way that could make the others believe in it. I interpreted it as Buffy knowing she was floundering and hating it, thus masking her feelings with the Generalissima Buffy (TM someone more clever than I) persona. Unfortunately, nobody but Buffy (including the audience, frequently), could know this, least of all the SiT's, who were rather out of the loop. So to bring this meandering post back around to its subject, I think Rona was simply stating her opinion in a tactless way. Rather like Cordelia, in that sense...

Character recycling -- Gyrus, 12:08:30 08/29/03 Fri

It's interesting how many times new characters have been introduced on BTVS to fill the roles of old characters. For example:

-Anya takes over for Cordelia as the brutally honest, self-centered one.

-Tara succeeds Willow as the shy, quiet one.

-Andrew takes up Xander's role as the nerdy, goofy one.

It's an interesting way of dealing with character development, really; the older characters can continue to develop while the newer characters maintain some aspects of the group's old dynamic.

Is it clever, or is it a cop-out? I can't decide.

How do you know you're a BTVS/ATS fanatic? ;-) -- s'kat (in a wacky mood), 12:45:56 08/29/03 Fri

Okay, this little tid-bit has been making the rounds on the fanboards, getting all sorts of interesting reactions.

Here's the info:


TeeVee Awards '03: Most Annoying Fans (Whedon's and The Office won by the way)

"Apparently, whenever Joss Whedon puts his name on a show, that ensures that the craziest, most obsessive fans will sign on. When Buffy went off the air, people leapt from their roofs, clutching pictures of Sarah Michelle Gellar and cursing Marti Noxon's name."

So it got me thinking - am I an annoying fan? How does one know if one has passed the point of no return? Where one is no longer just a "fan" but now a "fanatic" - to the point that people jump away in fear? When does being a fan become no longer a fun hobby, but uhm something you should seek a therapist's care for??

I've come up with steps or ways of knowing...for complete fun of course. Something light and funny (and yes, my sense of humor tends to be on the twisted side...which is why I don't expose you to it very often...tee hee.) Oh remember this is just in good fun!! I'm not commenting on anything. Heck I fall into the obsessed arena.

Anyways enough preamble here are my steps. Feel free to create your own. (Now remember no pointing fingers at innocent by standers or posters you have a beef with, this is all in good fun! Because let's face it - we'll all a little fanatical at times - it's part and parcel of being human.)

1. When BTVS and/or ATS come on do you do one, all or just a few of the following?

a. Turn of your phones and refuse to answer it.
b. Retreat to another room (if you are living with people who aren't into your shows and tell them not to bug you on the pain of death)
c. Kick people who aren't into your shows out of the room
d. Never ever schedule something that could risk you missing your shows?
e. All of the above

2. Have you taped :

a. All the BTVS and/or ATS shows at least once?
b.Taped the BTVS and/or ATS shows more than once, ie. off of F/X then off of UPN to compare presentations
c. Taped the original presentation of BTVS and/or ATs and the rerun
d. Have taped and organized all your tapes BTVS and/or ATS by season and in order of episode?
e. Skipped the taping and just spent loads of cash buying the DVD's.
f. Taped the shows and bought DVDs

3. Have you written or read fanfic :

a. read fanfic and/or betaed fanfic
b. Do you keep a fanfic archive on your website or harddrive
or in a paper file?
c. written fanfic on BTVS and/or ATS
d. written fanfic on BTVS and/or ATS and posted it on the internet (includes posting boards and live journals)
e. written fanfic, posted on the internet, and have a live journal to discuss it?
f. written fanfic, posted on the internet, and host fanfic contests and/or a website archiving fanfic (bad or good)
g. written, and critiqued others fanfic, and set yourself up as a fanfic expert?

*fanfic - includes parodies - it is basically anything where you put dialogue in a character's mouth that is written by you (not ME).

4. Have you written essays analyzing the characters?

a. IF so - did you post them on the internet?
b. Do you have a site archiving these essays?
c. Did accept them?
d. Did you edit and/or publish a journal on just BTVS and/or
ATS essays?
e. Do you run a website for essays, regardless of by whom?
f. Have you had your essays archived by other websites?
g. Do you now have legions of fans for your essays? And best of all - do you have a quote at a top of a fanboard (if you aren't an actor or writer for the show).

5. Have you done the following:

a. lurked on fanboards
b. posted on fanboards
c. run, moderate or host a fanboard
c. Embroiled in fanboard debates on the show
d. Gotten your name at the top of the fanboard, because of a quote you made or something you said you'd do. OR do you
archive the fanboard posts?
e.gotten embroiled in a character war on a fanboard (basically defended or attacked a character which has lead to an incredibly long thread and has tempted the moderators to delet your ass).
f. lashed out at other posters repeatedly
g. been asked to leave or banned from any boards or called a troll?

6. Have you now or ever:

a. Been to a BTVS convention?
b. Stood in line at said convention for autographs?
c. Given gifts to an actor at a convention
d. Written letters and fanfic and given it to the actor at this convention
e. grabbed a BTVS actor's butt at a convention or hugged a BTVS actor?
f. Been to every convention you can get to - or that particular actors has been at regardless of cost?
g. Are you now stalking the actor?? ;-)

7. Have you ever:

a. Sent money in to a charity in a BTVS actor's name?
b. Helped a campaign to renew ATS or BTVS?
c. Asked for a particular actor to stay on BTVS or be added to ATS?
d. Sent money in for an ad to be put in Variety or Hollywood Reporter to thank an actor.
e. Sent emails and post-cards to change plot-points in ATS or BTVS.
f. Ran a campaign to change plot points or effect the story in ATS or BTVS

8. Have you or are you:

a. Saving up to buy DVDS of the shows?
b. Bought the DVDS
c. Spent money on Buffy/Angel MAgazines or magazines featuring Buffy/Angel actors and or stories
d. Spent money on novels about BTVS or aTS
e. Spent money on action figures
f. Spent money on posters/and other ancillary products.
g. all of the above?

9. Do you:

a. (or your kids) Dress up as a BTVS/ATS character for Halloween?
b. Dress up as character for parties
c. Dress up as a character for conventions
d. Dress up as a character for board meets
e. Dress up as a character in every day life

10. How much time do you spend:

a. 20% (ie 4 hours a week watching and or analyzing Buffy)
b. 30% (ie 10 hours)
c. 40% (30 hours)
d. 50% (Most of the week)

Answers: If you answered-
Mostly a or skipped most of the questions because they did not apply- you're a fan, it's a part time thing, you'll probably lose interested eventually. In fact I bet you probably didn't even read this post.
Mostly b - you're into the shows, been for a while, but it has not taken over your life
Mostly c - you're beginning to get just a tad obsessed, but nothing serious.
Mostly d? Obsessed. But sane.
Mostly e? may have just a tad too much time on your hands? ;-)
Mostly e-g? .....well, let's just say you are a fanatic and leave it at that.;-)

For the record? I fall somewhere between d and e - ie. way too much time on my hands. And yep, I'm probably considered on the annoying side at times. sigh. On the plus side?
I wouldn't give up the friends I've made online for anything in the world - so if being a tad obsessed leads one to meet wonderful people? Count me in. Now if I start moving towards the fanatic stage? Someone please shoot me and put me out my misery. Thank you. SK

[> Oh loads of typos and mistakes, sorry!! -- s'kat, 12:48:01 08/29/03 Fri

I'm really not the best at doing questionnaires. ;-)

[> Well, I can answer at least "a" to most of those -- Masq, 22:00:03 08/29/03 Fri

fanfic, DVDs, tapes, internet, analyses, all big checks in the "yep" column.

And if my Buffy geekiness is in doubt to anyone here, there was this review of my site I came upon once:

""There But For the Grace of God

Let he who is without 500 board games cast the first stone, but where exactly is the line between academic analysis and irredeemable geekiness? Because from where I sit, this site has catapulted beyond it. I'm just not quite sure in which direction.""

[> Re: Obsession -- Celebaelin, 04:25:57 08/30/03 Sat

I wouldn't give up the friends I've made online for anything in the world - so if being a tad obsessed leads one to meet wonderful people? Count me in. Now if I start moving towards the fanatic stage? Someone please shoot me and put me out my misery. Thank you. SK

OK, I have the blindfold right here and I've given it a name already. A secret name that only the blindfold and I know. You have been warned. You and your little dog too, bwahahahahahaaaaa.


[> [> Obsessed but still sane. -- Arethusa, 11:33:09 08/31/03 Sun

But not by much. Thank goodness there are others because I don't want to be the only one writing an essay on the psychological effects of traumatic bonding on psychic vampires.

[> [> [> I have potential trollery planned -- Celebaelin, 15:32:58 08/31/03 Sun

Oh yes, welcome, I say welcome, to the nyarghhhh mnmnmmnmmmmmnm gyghggghghghhg

Ah, but anywyyyytrrrrhghghghghhhh

Holy Cow!

I need CPR (or defibrilation) please advise


[> Not enough time -- BMF, 15:26:12 08/31/03 Sun

By the standards set here, I would be between B and C...if this website hadn't taken over all the time I had for Buffy in my life!

OT: Dedalus --
Random, 17:36:17 08/29/03 Fri

Trying to track you down -- we'd all feel really bad if you didn't have a place to sleep tonight. Rob's staying in the Marriot, room 3116, though we're all gonna be wandering around a lot. So we're gonna give the front desk your real name and ask them to give you a key if you come to the desk. Hopefully, that should work out (though, given the chaos of 30,000 people in 2 adjoining hotels, Murphy's Law seems likely.) If all else fails, email Rob at the email provided (i.e. click on my name, Mr. So-Techno-Unsavvy-That-He-Can't-Figure-Out-Why-He-Can't-Connect-to-the-Internet-For-2-Weeks-Until-Someone-Points-Out-That-the-Modem-Isn't-Plugged-Into-the-Phone-Line)

[> The Saga of the Dedalus and the Doppleganger -- a tale in strange acts -- Random, 20:50:23 08/29/03 Fri

Nevermind. We found Dedalus. However, our discovery was complicated by the fact that he didn't know who he was. Interesting story -- I was walking with Rob and happened to glimpse a wan, pathetic person walking ahead of us who bore a striking resemblance to Dedalus (hey, I rhymed!) So, telling Rob to keep up -- a skill he has developed only partially -- I raced to catch up to Ded. Fighting my way past a stormtrooper and assorted beasties (i.e. women in really tight spandex and/or leather), I finally caught up to him. With my last ounce of strength, I tore my gaze away from the aforementioned women and tapped this Dedalus doppleganger on the shoulder. To make this simple, I will summarize the dialogue:
Random: Hey...Dedalus?
Dedalus doppleganger: Huh?
Random: Are you Dedalus?
Ded doppleganger: [hunted expression]
Random: You sure?
DD: N...I mean, yes
Random: You look like...
DD: I'm not

So Dedalus, in fine Christian tradition, denied himself twice (apparently his misinterpretations of the Star Wars allegories lap over into a slight confusion about who denies who in the Bible.) So we walked away, very confused, especially Rob, who seemed to be humoring me as I ranted about how that looked exactly like Dedalus. Various "Hmm"s and "Okay"s emerged from him in a tone of voice that left little doubt that he considered me to be a prime candidate for the delusional farm.

So we rejoined Bit, who had finished picking up her pre-registration stuff and I was explaining to her that we found Dedalus but he persistently denied that he was himself. Then a voice, a familiar, awful voice sounded from nearby...
Voice: So who you looking for?
We turned to see the same Dedalus doppleganger that had driven me mad and turned Rob against me. I stared. He stared. The moment grew pungent. Finally, Bit broke the ice. "Hey Dedalus," she said. I glanced apprehensively at her, trying to warn her with my eyes that this could only end in confusion and heartbreak. She ignored me, examining this strange Dedalus-shaped figure before us. Finally, he replied: "Hey Bit."

Now the true depth of his madness was laid bare. And he emerged from the haze of his ignorance into full self-knowledge. I could see the wonderment crossing his face as he suddenly realized: Hey, I am Dedalus! And then, a moment later, horror as he looked at me and realized what he had done during his long dark night of the soul. A tentative attempt to address me ended in a soft, gasping whisper. Finally, he rediscovered his voice just as he had rediscovered his identity. He spoke, and his words were like the dawning of a beautiful new day, resonant with power and understanding. "Ummm...hey there," he said, and at last the balance in the universe was restored. For those of you who doubt the power of language, I commend those three words to you. They were a profound breakthrough in the turmoil of the evening. Ummm...hey simple, yet all the joy of the heavens contained in them.

So we ate some dinner. Me, Bit and Rob had the buffet. Dedalus had cheesecake. Or, as Bit put it, three Buffys and the Cheeseman. We're currently trying to deal with her now. Wish us luck. Though she says anom would be proud of her. Anom, we think, is just an enabler.

[> [> Re: The Saga of the Dedalus and the Doppleganger -- a tale in strange acts -- RanBitRob...and Rob didn't like it one Bit, 20:54:53 08/29/03 Fri

By the way, we're having fun. Busy, sweaty, spandexy fun. We'll try to update our saga soon.

p.s. As you can see by our posting name, the intervention with Bit hasn't worked yet. But don't despair...we haven't even tried the cat-o-nine-tails yet. Rob won't go to his room to get it out of his suitcase. He's afraid we might do something geeky while he's gone and he'll miss it. Plus, he suspects that we'll sneak off to see Iyari Limon without him. Makes us wonder....

[> [> The Saga of Dedalus continues -- the true and tawdry story of the Ded man -- Random, 12:04:46 08/30/03 Sat

We met up today to see Andy Hallet and James Leary. The line was long and convoluted, but luckily, Ded had brought food. Luckily for him, that is. He didn't want to share his sandwich with the rest of us.

So we made it into the room and took our seats, whereupon Dedalus tried to sit in my lap. Southern hospitality is one thing, but I felt that he was moving too quickly, so I shunted him into another seat. He proceeded to remove his sandwich from its bag and tried to take a bite, only to discover his mouth wasn't big enough. He paused, looked puzzled, and tried again. This time, he almost managed to sink his teeth into it. But at the last second, his jaw gave out. I took pity on him and pointed out that the sandwich was actually two halves stacked on top of each other. He gazed curiously at it and tried to separate the halves. No luck. So he tried again. This time he found the proper division and at last Ded was fed.

Andy and James were a lot of fun, incidentally. Topics of interest: makeup and slash fic. Apparently slash isn't a part of their normal method acting, so they found it to be a little...odd, especially when it involves Angel, Lorne, a shower, a bar of soap and three fingers. Andy shuddered visibly. James, on the other hand, looked a little interested in the idea.

And so it goes. Oh, and we met up with Collinwood for a while too.

[> [> [> Note to sitting on Randoms lap when I meet him...;) -- Rufus, 14:19:04 08/30/03 Sat

That's one quaint Canadian custom you'll miss out on....oh well, there are other laps.

[> [> not proud of you--too busy being jealous of you! -- anom, sulking 'cause i'm not there!, 19:25:15 08/30/03 Sat

Toss my name around without a shred of sympathy, eh? Yeah, sure, go ahead & tell me how much you're enjoying yourselves when you know how much I wanted to go instead of staying home WORKING over the "holiday" weekend. That's right, I got a rush job at the last minute, whose delivery was delayed, of course, meaning I couldn't get an early start on it but still had to sit home waiting to find out when it would show up. So not only couldn't I go to DragonCon, I also can't do most of the stuff I was planning to do here in town in a pathetic attempt to make up for missing the convention. My only comfort is that I'll at least be making some, y' Hmm--actually, that does make me feel a little better. But not enough to mean you should feel any less guilty.

All I can say is, this better not happen next year. Back to work! >sigh<

[> [> [> You poor thing!! (passes the dark chocolate) -- LadyStarlight, 19:58:14 08/30/03 Sat

Pile on the guilt, anom, I'm right there with ya! (in the metaphysical sense, of course ;))

[> [> [> [> dark chocolate? aw, you remembered! thanks! -- anommmmmmm, 22:17:47 08/30/03 Sat

[> [> Re: The Saga of the Dedalus and the Doppleganger -- a tale in strange acts -- Wombat, 08:59:18 09/02/03 Tue

Pictures of the official recreation of the Dedalus encounter available now for $19.95 plus a free Ginsu knife. LittleBit, contact me.

[> And um.... -- Masq, 22:04:54 08/29/03 Fri

Where exactly are you guys? I mean, the stories are nice, and I can picture you-all in my mind having a good time together. But... doing what exactly?

[> [> Dragoncon in Atlanta... -- RobBitRan ...turnabout is fair play, 22:21:20 08/29/03 Fri

It's a 4-day fantasy/sci fi convention covering TV, film, writing and art. James Marsters, Danny Strong, Andy Hallet, James Leary and Iyari Limon are guests from BtVS/AtS. Rob's already talked to Danny...and saw Iyari (he reluctantly loves her now...or as he put it "she's HOT").

They have a 4-day all-Buffy track with a very wide variety of things from talks with the actors to fanfic to an all-night 'slumber party' with Buffy eps. So far it's been fun!

[> [> Dragoncon in Atlanta... -- Rob, 22:25:31 08/29/03 Fri

Already made a gibbering fool of myself talking to Danny Strong, and found myself doing the unbelievable (for me, at least)...drooling over Iyari!! Yes, she is relentlessly hot in person, I am pleased to report. Attended JM's talk today (Masq, you'll be glad to hear that JM refers to his role next season as playing "the a**h***".) Tomorrow, we're seeing Danny, Iyari, James Leary and Andy Hallett do talks, and hopefully getting some more autographs. Tomorrow night--Ghost of the Robot concert. Having a great time!

Rob, sleeping with his autographed Jonathan picture under his pillow

[> [> [> Ooops, I seem to have detached from the collective...Rejoining now. -- Rob, 22:26:54 08/29/03 Fri

Aaaah, much better!!

RanBitRob :oD

[> [> [> [> Retach, dammit! Retach! -- RanBitRob collective, 08:51:34 08/30/03 Sat

[> The Saga of Saturday...reprinted from my LJ -- Random, 07:47:40 08/30/03 Sat

It's Saturday at 10 AM and I'm still seriously sleep-deprived. However, I promised to give updates from DragonCon, so...

This is the start of my Future History series here...hopefully, I will be able to give an account of how it really went later, but for now, let's reminisce about Saturday's events ahead of time.

1 p.m. Went to "Normal Again" featuring Andy Hallet and James Leary, sans make-up. While Andy was regaling us with tales of DB's prediliction for Spam and drawing insulting pictures of JM in drag. Andy was drinking Jack Daniels straight from the bottle. Beside Andy, James was looking positively wistful. Finally, something appeared to snap inside him. He turned to Andy, grabbed him by the shoulders and planted a long, deep, almost-embarassingly passionate kiss on Andy's lips. The bottle of bourbon slipped from Andy's fingers and I had to fight off several fanboys and girls to claim the half-empty bottle for myself. With a massive swig, I emptied it down my throat and then tossed it to the girl dressed as Drusilla. Her Spike boyfriend (who apparently didn't leave the peroxide on long enough, cause his hair was the exact shade of yellow snow) glowered at me. I smiled sweetly back. Meanwhile, Andy and James seemed to have found a room. So that little event was over.

3:30 P.M. Rob...sigh. We are currently trying to raise bail for Rob. If only we had known...

It all started at 2:30 P.M. The "Two to Go" conference featuring Danny Strong and Iyari Limon had just started. I remember whispering to Rob, "I know you loathe Kennedy, but be polite to Iyari. She's just an actress." The look of incomprehension in Rob's eyes as he glanced back at me should have been a warning. Sigh...

So we walked in and Rob got his first good look at Iyari. Suddenly, with a squeal of utter fanboy delight, he raced toward her, knocking a whole group of girls dressed as Buffy in her cheerleading outfit to the ground. He reached the podium and dove at Iyari. It took 4 strong men to detach his lips from her feet. He fought, of course, and finally had to be sedated by someone turning on the TV and inserting the DVD containing the "bestest episode of Buffy ever." I don't remember which one. It was Rob, after all. Didn't really matter.

Then the cops came. And, in a particularly ugly incident, Rob mistook one female cop for, and I quote, "that totally cool woman cop in 'What's My Line.'" So, after his lips were separated from her boots, bail doubled.

5:15 P.M. Finally bailed Rob out after Dedalus skimmed some money from the till at his Border's job. Rob looked a little worse for the wear. He had a tread mark across his face, which we conveniently ignored, and his pompoms were a little scraggly.

5:49 P.M. Ate dinner, over which Dedalus expounded at length about how Star Wars was nothing less than the story of Neo-fundamental Family Values in a proto-Giles mode.

5:51 P.M. Felt a little guilty about the whole suffering thing, but refused to remove the ball gag we had just managed to force into Ded's mouth. Finished dinner in peace.

7:30 P.M. The "Is Buffy Female?" seminar made us take a long hard look at Buffy's breasts.

8:15 P.M. Moderator of seminar finally arrives -- traffic delays -- and forces us to return to the original topic, "Is Buffy Feminist?" Much groaning was heard, especially from the people dressed as Klingons.

10:00 P.M. Ghost of Rock Concert. Forgot my Zippo, dammit, but other than that, everything went well. Mostly. Sometimes. The band broke out into a rousing rendition of Helter Skelter whilst the approximately two million screaming female fans, and Rob, tried to storm the stage when JM took the fore. Electrified fence did job, though, and with only 50 fatalities or so. Then JM refused to sing anymore until Rob stopped kissing his feet. How he got past the fence, I don't know. But we managed to convince Rob to stop. Much to my chagrin, though, that ensured that JM would continue singing. My protests of "Let Andy Hallet sing" went unheard amidst the renewed squealing from the crowd. So I went outside a purchased a rum and coke.

And so it went. Happy reading, y'all.

[> [> I find this hard to believe....... -- Rufus, 14:24:36 08/30/03 Sat

We are currently trying to raise bail for Rob. If only we had known...

My sacrifice.....I will skip the Chocolate Malt today bringing the bail fund up to about 6 dollars Canadian. Don't worry Rob, you'll be out in about 30 years...;)

Now, I just don't believe that you and Bit are sitting innocently by while Ded and Rob do all the damage. I think your account of things is lacking in any self-incriminating references.

[> [> Eerie -- ponygirl, 08:37:56 09/02/03 Tue

It's exactly like my weekend, except you know completely different.

[> Help Rob keep his Head Cheerleader Status -- LittleBit, 12:21:31 08/30/03 Sat

Our very own Buffy cheerleader is being challenged. While waiting in yet another winding line in hopes of getting in the room for the Danny Strong and Iyari Limon panel (hopes dashed to smithereens at the last moment), suddenly Dedalus calls out, "Kennedy alert!" Rob immediately transfers his gaze to the completely blank wall behind me. Directly behind Rob is the escalator used to get to ther correct level. I turn him, bodily, and tell him. "that way." Rob confusedly looks at the lights on the ceiling. He never did see her. One for Dedalus. Then later, in the same line, once again as Rob looks distractedly around at the walls we hear, "Jonathon alert!" Again from Ded. Ded-2, Rob-0.

We're workig with Rob now on the concept of 'look at the people' and assuring him that we won't be giving architectural alerts. Cross your fingers for him.

[> [> To make up for it... -- Rob, 16:00:38 08/30/03 Sat

Ded and I went to meet Iyari later in the day at the "Walk of Fame," where all the celebs are stationed, signing autographs, and chatted for a little while...There was actually some flirtage! Don't know if I've stressed this enough, but this girl is HOT, and also incredibly sweet, and has the cutest little nose...Um, but I'm getting off-topic. Yes, order has been restored to the universe...I now once again love every single thing about Buffy, and it's such a relief! Who'd've thunk only a few short months ago that I would one day be clamoring for Iyari Limon's autograph?!? And for those of you who want absolute proof that the tongue ring was just a prop, I can tell you. She is unpierced. How I know that is personal. ;o)

Oh, and after my high from Kennedy contact, I went to meet Andy, and I got to hear him sing! He hummed a few bars for the girl in front of me in line. Dragoncon is awesome. Just yesterday, I saw a female fan grab Danny Strong out of his chair and kiss him on the lips. Which gave me a great first line when I got to speak to him a few moments later: "I'm a huge fan of yours and to prove it I'm not going to kiss you on the lips."


[> The shocking revelation of James Marsters -- Random, 14:58:40 08/30/03 Sat

JM sparkled like...well, a sparkly thing. He's a fan of "ray guns" and his favorite colour is green because it is "the colour of Mother Earth." One suspects his lawn has never gone to seed, else he might have noted that brown and ochre play a large part in the cosmetic make-up of earth as well. The most profound revelation of the whole affair, however, came when he admitted that he's enjoying the Harry Potter books because they're, and I quote, "candy, but candy with a fruit center." Confucious himself would have been speechless.

[> [> And then...Ghost of the Robot -- Random, 23:10:20 08/30/03 Sat

JM burst on-stage with a fiery passion, and then began doing something that I will, for lack of a better word, call singing. Heh, that's not fair. He was okay. Plus, he said we were the best crowd in the world -- which made me feel all yummy inside. Except I felt anxious too...was I doing my part as a member of the bestest crowd in the entire world? Could I have perhaps squealed with delight as Rob was doing? Or maybe held my lighter aloft as Bit was doing. But, no. I think my brand of quiet moral support with my hands in my pocket was a small, but absolutely-necessary element of being a part of the most superlative crowd in existence. The band itself,btw, was, as far as I was concerned, a moderately good bar band. Luckily, it was preceded by a "Dawn look-alike contest." Imagine my shock and sadness when I discovered that it wasn't referring the BtVS's Dawn. Imagine my rediscovered joy when I discovered it was referring to a scantily-clad anime comic book character. A few dozen women in various stages of dress and undress -- mostly undress -- paraded across the stage. A couple were basically nude. Rob was fascinated, but aghast. I was avid. Then, afterwards, there was a photo session with all the contestants. I have pictures. Good pictures. Rob and Bit, however, stayed well away, hiding and blushing in shame. Oh well. I, at least, will have my memories, and several digital photos, to keep me warm tonight.


[> [> [> Re: Hey, don't call Dawn an anime -- Brian, 07:47:00 08/31/03 Sun

She's 100% American. Drawn by Joseph Michael Linsner. She started her comic book existence as a cover girl for a series of horror comic book anthologies. Eventually, she got her own series, and she is now in her third adventure.

I confess she is hot! I have a metal poster of her which is good, as if it were paper, it would combust.

[> Jerry gets staked -- cougar, 22:20:50 08/30/03 Sat

News from TV Guide

Fan-tasy Reality Tales!

Seinfeld reeled in millions of gentle viewers with his "show about nothing" but did he ever hook them with cerebral Klingons? America is not ready for this new collective comedy team, writing "the show about our thing". We say to this evil trio, "go Quest!"

[> The Rob & Iyari Chronicles -- Rob, 22:42:35 08/31/03 Sun

Before Random comes in to distort the record, I thought I'd fill you guys in to what happened today with Iyari and me (Iyari and me...sigh!). Yesterday, she had complimented me on my "Star Wars" t-shirt, and I told her that it was the only sci-fi shirt that I owned, to which she gave an exaggerated frown. I had completely ignored the fact that I also had (and brought with me to Dragoncon) a Marvin the Martian shirt, which also yes does count as sci-fi. So I proudly walked up to Iyari, Random and Bit trailing behind, and showed her my Marvin t-shirt. She ignored Ran's drooling and focused entirely on me, glad not only that I had found another shirt to wear but that I had come to greet her yet again. And yes, she remembered me (sigh!). Afterwards, she agreed to take a photo with me, the pinnacle of my DragonCon Weekend. We might have gotten drinks after the signing, but rumor has that she's shacking up with Danny Strong. Grrr, Danny.


[> [> BTW.. -- Random, 22:43:48 08/31/03 Sun

That "grrr, Danny" was a lustful growl

[> [> [> Oh, we all knew that! -- HonorH, 23:02:47 08/31/03 Sun

BTW, is Iyari as tiny as she appeared onscreen? It looked like SMG was taller than her. Which would mean that if she and Danny really are together, they have the potential (pardon the pun) to have absolute hobbit children . . .

[> [> [> [> Re: Oh, we all knew that! -- Rob, 00:03:53 09/01/03 Mon

This will sound kind of funny, but I'm not sure how tall Iyari is because every time I've seen her so far, she was sitting down! For a brief moment, she leaned on the table, her cheek lightly pressed against mine, but I was looking in the general direction of a camera manned by Bit at the moment. I will attest to her very slender frame, though. And Danny, well, Danny is one of the tiniest people I have ever seen in my life. Not only incredibly thin, but very short, too. A light wind could knock him over.

As far as the Danny/Iyari rumors, I have it on personal authority from Dedalus and some of his friends (including some people standing near us in line for the Buffy Horror Picture Show--the interactive OMWF--who also were privy to the mackage) that a very drunk Danny and Iyari were making out at the bar in the hotel last night, and that they left together. Make of that what you will. Funny, never really pictured Jonathan and Kennedy together (completely ignoring the fact that Jonathan was dead before Kennedy even arrived in Sunnydale)! Go Jonathan, getting a Slayer!

Oh, I mean, damn you, Strong, damn you to Hell, you sexy little man, you!

Rob, 97.9% completely corrupted now

[> [> [> [> [> what's w/this height fixation you have, rob? -- anom, 00:28:36 09/01/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: what's w/this height fixation you have, rob? -- Rob, 06:47:07 09/01/03 Mon

Heh heh...Not so much a fixation as a shock that, as short as these people look on screen, they're even more so in person.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Three rules of thumb regarding photography/film -- s'kat, 09:16:30 09/01/03 Mon

1. The camera adds at least 20 pounds

2. The camera adds height. Why? Well they have nifty things such as field of depth illusions, lighting, and platforms.
Alan Ladd who was shorter than all his leading ladies, stood on a platform and the lady in a ditch. Also another fascinating tid-bit: apparently it's better if you are tiny or shorter for film - since the sets are built very small.
A friend of mine who is 5'2 said that the taller actors she worked with on film, always struggled because they overwhelmed the set dimensions.

3. Make-up and camera blush work can do wonders. Did you know Elizabeth Hurly has really bad skin? Or that Brad Pitt's skin is incredibly pitted? Well, can't tell on the screen. So how someone looks on camera is rarely how they appear in life. (Depending of course on how could the make-up people and camera F/X people are. ;-) ) Another interesting tid-bit, there are people who look fantastic on camera, amazing actually, and horrid off-camera. While there are others who look amazing off-camera and horrid on.
Film is a magical medium but it can't reproduce exactly what we see with the naked eye, it more often than not to some small degree alters it.(I'm sure there are exceptions. ;-) )


PS: ROFL!! Congrats, this is the most amusing set of convention reports I've yet to read. (And I've well read
more than I'm willing to admit to. ;-))

And a question? How good is Ghost in the Robot musically?
I've heard very mixed reports. Garage band? Professional?
A Hoot? Stick with your day job?? Should I consider saving up for the album? Or just pass? (my computer dial-up is fast enough to get the songs online.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ugh! typos... -- s'kat, 09:20:46 09/01/03 Mon

"(Depending of course on how could the make-up people and camera F/X people are. ;-) "

Should be: " Depending of course on how good the make-up people and camera F/X people are."

"Make-up and camera blush work can do wonders."

Should be: "Make-up and camera brush work..."

Note to self, it's time to take an extended break from the internet. The connection between my brain and fingers seems to be out of sorts.

ugh. Apologies.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ghost of the Robot -- Rob, 22:12:12 09/01/03 Mon

To begin with, I had some trepidation, because I had heard some mixed things. But I thought the concert was kick-ass. I bought the CD, also, and am thoroughly enjoying it. JM would make a great rock star...It's all in the attitude. Your enjoyment of the music depends on how loud you like your rock music. It's very loud, but not whiny like many bands of its type. From what some people at the concert who had been to earlier GotR concerts were sayinng, the band improved immensely and Saturday night was their best show, probably greatly helped by the sheer enormity of the crowd and how enthusiastic and loving everyone in the crowd was. I'm not saying this is the greatest band ever, but it is much better than just another actor who thinks he can be a rock star...The songs are clever, some great tunes, good beats, JM is a great lead singer, and it is actually rock, not the poppy/punky/rap mix that the music industry's been trying to pass as rock the past few years.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the reviews!! -- s'kat, 08:54:02 09/02/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Three rules of thumb regarding photography/film -- Random, 07:35:43 09/02/03 Tue

Did you know that James Leary is not nearly as droopy in person as he is on screen? The camera not only adds 20 lbs, it adds them in sagging bags of overlapping skin. Very spooky. Poor James. He's a fine actor, but the camera just doesn't love him. He's better off in the theatre. And I'm gonna have to take my TV in for repair on the colour and tint controls: Andy Hallet looks a lot less greenish in person. At least I no longer worry excessively about his health. All this time, I thought he was suffering from some weird strain of hepatitis. And I can report that both Danny and Iyari are just the cutest things in real life. I loved Danny's expression after Rob asked Danny to sign his underwear. It got complicated for a moment when Danny realized that Rob was wearing a thong and had very specific ideas about where he wanted it signed. Luckily, Bit prevailed on Rob to let Danny sign wherever he wanted. So now Rob has Danny's signature on Iyari Limon's underwear. Unfortunately, Iyari refused to give them to Rob.

Ghost of the Robot? Well, they had a beat, that much I can say. But had they been a bar band, I would have listened to them for a couple minutes and gone off to hustle cocky frat boys at pool for beer money. They didn't suck, but they didn't impress me either. JM was okay, and didn't posture too much. Then, he looked rather waxen and I wondered whether the weekend's events were taking their toll on him. Or maybe it was just the lighting, which also gave the illusion that Rob had taken his shirt off and was waving it around in the air as he bounced up and down to the rhythm. At least Ded was drunk and passed out next to the stage. God only knows what he would have tried to do had he been mobile.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> To clarify... -- Rob, 08:43:10 09/02/03 Tue

...just to get an idea of who really liked and who didn't like GotR, Ran and Bit left after two or three numbers. Ded, me, and some of his friends partied there until the wee hours, through the concert and the screening afterwards of James Leary's hilarious short film, "Stunt Cocks," which needs to be seen to be believed. Highly recommened to anyone here who (a) wants to see James act out of the Clem skin (Clem, btw, he refers to not as a "loose-skinned demon" but a "foreskinned demon"), (b) is not easily offended, and (c) is over 17, since it would definitely warrant an R rating at the very least. Here's the official website:


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To clarify... -- Wombat, 08:49:49 09/02/03 Tue

Well, like I said when Robin Atkin-Downs asked us later that a.m., the "band" was good... And I stayed for the whole concert, much to Squirrel's dismay.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LMAO!!! Ah, my first laugh of the morning. I thank thee! ;-) -- s'kat, 08:44:27 09/02/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> yeah, well get over it awreddy! -- anom, 10:05:15 09/01/03 Mon

And this idea that short folks are easy to knock over? Where'dja get that from, huh? Doesn't even occur to you that we have a lower center of gravity. It's attitudes like yours that make people give normal kids growth hormones!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, we all knew that! -- Wombat, 09:07:21 09/02/03 Tue

Having a pretty clear view of the bar area from where we were sitting, waiting an unbelievably long time to get sustenance in the Hyatt lobby restaurant, I was one of the witnesses to the Danny/Iyari encounter. In fact, when we saw them, we rather wished you were there, Rob, so Ded and I could have said, "Look, there's Danny," so that you in turn could have gazed wistfully toward the ascending elevators or some such. So, I believe you have 3 cridible witnesses from our table (Ded, Squirrel, and moi).

[> [> The Official Record Distortion -- Random, 23:02:08 08/31/03 Sun

So there we were in the lowest sub-basement of the Marriot. All around us, hormones throbbed...and they all seemed to be throbbing in the general direction of James Marsters. Dedalus was practically sweating with anticipation, and the drool was actually trailing from his mouth. So Rob, Bit and I walked over to the lesser gods and goddesses sitting over to JM's right. James Leary sat next to JM, then Danny Strong, then Andy Hallet. A waif-sized, Iyari Limon-shaped hole sat between Danny and Andy. Rob looked increasingly frantic as he searched for Iyari. Danny, noticing Rob's looks, said, "Hi" to us...perhaps hoping someone would pay attention to him rather than to Captain Peroxide. We took pity on poor Danny and went to say Hi...but at that moment, Iyari returned. I only knew this because Rob's tears suddenly dried up with an audible pop as the air raced in to replace the salty liquid. Suddenly, he squealed in delight and Iyari looked up with sudden terror. "Ee..eee...eee..." he tried to say. Finally, I whispered helpfully into his ear, "Iyari." He pointed at me and said to her, "What he said!" Iyari started to edge behind Danny's protective bulk...before realizing that the bulk only protected her from the belly-button down. Finally, she accepted her fate like a good, if suicidal, Slayer, and smiled perkily and said "Hi there, Mr. Martian. No hablo Anglais" Rob leaped across the table, inadvertently knocking the cyanide pill from her hand. "My salvation!" she screamed in horror as the pill bounced away, and glanced to me, to anyone, to save her. James Marsters finally tore his gaze away from the topless female fan in front of him to see what the commotion was about. "Bugger that," he said, and shrugged. So it was left to me to save the day. Without thinking, I burst into the first verse of "Where Do We Go From Here." Rob suddenly stopped, entranced. He turned around with the largest grin I've ever seen on a human and stared joyfully at me. Then Bit and Iyari joined in. As word spread of the danger that rested on the edge of a razor, others started singing as well. Finally, the whole store was in song, and Rob was reduced to a puddle of joy. But then disaster struck! The song ended...

Rob recovered himself, raising himself to his full 5 feet and bursting with sheer Cheer Power. In the interim, fortunately, I had helped Iyari escape to the safety of the bar across the street, where the two of us were doing Jell-o shooters. Luckily, there was a Hooters nearby, so Rob went in there and had a good time. We have pictures. He's still grinning. It's getting disturbing.

So there it is...the true story. What? You want to know what happened next? Well...Iyari is helping me type this in our bed. Goodnight all.

[> [> [> Gosh, I sure wish I'd been there for that -- LittleBit, 23:20:19 08/31/03 Sun

There I was, roaming aimlessly around...just seeing who was there. Watching Andy Hallett smile and sign photos, wondering a little about whether or not I should get one. Saw the empty seat between Andy and Danny, with the two Jameses, Leary then Marsters, farther down the tables. Suddenly Rob turns around excitedly, joy shining from his face, nearly, nay, actually, bouncing in his enthusiasm. "She's here! She's here!" he said, hopping up and down. I didn't ask who was there...there's now but one "She" to Rob. Iyari. I was kind enough not to help Rob out. ["Oh, this is Iyari? Did you know he hates Kennedy? Oh wait, it wasn't Kennedy so much as it was the actress playing her that he couldn't stand."] I felt that if Rob wanted to lie through his teeth in the interests of true infatuation, it was his perogative to do that. So I wandered on past and was having a nice little conversation with Danny when suddenly I hear Rob. "Picture!!! Picture!!!" he cried. I turn, with an apologetic look at Danny, and pull out my camera, taking my time so Rob can have a little extra cheek-to-cheek time with Iyari, then taking the picture just before that gorgeous smile started to fade and the hunted look come into her eyes.

Rob is happy. Grinning. Bouncing. Wanting everyone to see that picture. Oh, and the picture with his Hooters waitress too. In which he's happy. Grinning. Bouncing. Hmmm...I'm beginning to see a trend here.

Oh...and I got a specially autographed copy of James Leary's short film "Stunt Cocks" for dub. And an autographed picture of the two Jameses without standing in line for 3 hours. [grin]

[> [> [> [> Woo-Hoo!! -- dub ;o), 11:28:47 09/01/03 Mon

Can't wait 'til that arrives, LOL!

[> [> [> [> Re: Gosh, I sure wish I'd been there for that -- Wombat, 08:54:47 09/02/03 Tue

So, JM is making such a bloody big deal about constantly being asked to take his shirt off, right. Well, I left their panel when it ended, spoke briefly to George Lucas, who was holding a place for me in line, then walked next door to the SG-1 panel, whereupon Christoper Judge took off his shirt when presented with a T-shirt from the DC folks!

[> [> And it took you nine months to figure out how hot she is? -- CW, 10:13:41 09/01/03 Mon

The youth of today, sigh... What's to be done with the youth of today?

Well, Rob, we're going to expect a ten-page essay on "Kennedy, the unfairly maligned slayer: how she saved the world" shortly after you return to New York.

[> [> [> Just got in a few minutes ago, so I can't write that essay now, but... -- Rob, 22:15:50 09/01/03 Mon

I am reformed. I am a complete and total Kennedy fan now, and I would love to write a defense of her. I'm not sure which I'm more psyched about, how cool a person Iyari is (she isn't only very attractive, but incredibly sweet and funny), or the fact that once again order has been restored to the universe--I once again love every character and every plotline ever on Buffy. :oD


[> [> [> [> The absolutely true, but, you know, a little embellished tale... -- Random, 08:50:02 09/02/03 Tue

...of Rob's final meeting with Iyari.

The day was sultry. Even sexy, in a humid, bright yellow ball in the sky sort of way. We were once again down in the basement for the final day of autographs. Rob was in line to get James Marsters script. Me, Bit and Ded were over to the side, bored. The afternoon dragged on as the line moved at the pace of a snail on pot. Finally, Rob was at the front of the line. JM seemed bored as he glanced up to see who was next. Suddenly, a look of horror crossed his face! "You!" he said, clearly remembering the unfortunate incident with Iyari yesterday. He made a curt gesture and several burly bodyguards converged on Rob. Rob glanced to us for help, but we were too busy pretending we didn't know him.

Rob went down in a pile of manflesh. And one womanflesh, but she was burly too, so it was all good. Bit tapped my shoulder and directed my attention to the actor who played Chewbacca. "Wanna go get an autograph?" she asked as Rob's screams rent the air.

"Sure," I replied.

But just as we started walking, we heard a plaintive wail. We glanced sharply back. Somehow, the guards had missed Rob, for he was at Iyari's table and his arms were around her. "I love you I love you I love you I love you " he kept saying as Danny glowered at him, a look of pure jealousy crossing those cherubic Jonathan features. Iyari -- the plaintive wailer -- was mouthing prayers. She looked to me, but I had been distracted again, this time by a girl dressed in a skintight harlequin suit. It was a moment of beauty for me, a moment when I discovered a new fetish to enjoy. I was on my knees and proposing to her in less than a second. She smiled down at me and stroked my hair. I took her hand in mine and kissed it. She knelt down in front of me. Our eyes were level with each other's. As were our lips. With a breathy sigh, she...damn! Iyari finally managed to toss Rob loose and sent him flying into my new love. They went down in a tangle of limbs and autographed photos.

So there was nothing for it but to go get dinner. Then Oreo cheesecake for dessert. Rob, incidentally, is a happy man. He got to hug both Iyari and a cute-as-hell clown girl in the space of five minutes. I'd be upset, but right now, a barbarian princess is helping me discover another fetish. Easy with the sword, my dear. It's not a toy.

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