December 2001 posts
Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of
Drusilla -- The Last Jack, 09:00:49 12/04/01 Tue
Angelus was one of the most cruel, sadistic vampires ever created. Spike was a thrill seeker who
managed to kill two slayers singlehandedly. Darla was the favorite "daughter" of the
Master, one of the most powerful vampires ever. And Drusilla was a mad fortune teller who could
bewitch the senses. For a time they travelled the world together, inspiring chaos and fear wherever
they went. But then something happened...
Angelus soul was restored, and he became Angel, an outcast and tortured soul, who finally found the
road to redemption in the form of a beautiful slayer named Buffy.
Spike, rendered harmless to humans due to a special microchip, also found himself changing and
evolving thanks to the infulence of a certain blonde Slayer.
Darla, brought back from death and then made pregnant by an unknown force, found a form of
redemption when she sacrificed herself for her child.
In each case, a situation occured that changed each vampire's life, but it wasn't until love was added
to the equation that they started to change for the better. Buffy's love inspired Angel to become an
active force for good, rather than a miserable creature who stood on the sidlines. Spike's love for
Buffy made him reevalute what it is he truely wants out of his unlife, and what kind of person he
wants to be. And her son's instinctive love for her allowed Darla to become a true mother, sacrificing
herself for him.
Will the same thing happen to Drusilla? Will something occur to brings her to the crossroads of life,
and will someone's love allow her to achieve her own redemption? Or, will her string of bad luck
continue to hold (cursed with visions, made insane by Angelus, abandoned by her
"family"), and will she ultimatley end up like most vampires, on the wrong side of a
stake?
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[> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla -- vandalia, 09:30:44 12/04/01 Tue
Even I, the founding member of the 'don't count Darla out yet' school of redemption, am unsure as to
the fate of Drusilla. Her madness doesn't help her, because she is incapable of reason, which appears
to be a necessary factor in choosing the path of redemption. (It also doesn't help that the actress
herself is unavailable so they can't really plan ahead like they can for the more regular
characters).
In short, while I was sure Darla would come through in the end, given her realization at the end of
her (second) time as a human, Drusilla's end is a mystery to me. I guess what we have to look at is
what would it say about the possibility of redemption if she were killed? Some people simply cannot
be saved? The insane aren't capable of redemption because they lack reason? Neither of these
messages really strikes me as the kind of story ME is about telling. But I can't see a way for her to
redeem herself that hasn't already been done (Darla sacrificed herself, which is how I would see Dru
doing it. Perhaps Dru sacrifices herself for Darla's baby (or Spike, depending on which show she ends
up on)? Ideas?
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[> [> Maybe her madness gives her more humanity? -- The Last Jack, 10:28:58 12/04/01
Tue
During season two's "What's My Line?", Drusilla had a little torture session going on
with Angel right before she was made strong again. During this she made all sorts of comments
about her human family, and she seemed genually upset about what Angelus did to them. She talked
foundly of them, and was visiably mad at Angel for taking them away from her. Maybe being insane
when you are turned allows the vampire to hang onto more of the host body's humanity than
usual.
Of course, when Angelus returend later that season, she seemed to be entralled with him again. Was
she just pretending to care about her human family before to torture Angel a little more, or was she
acting like a battered woman, afraid of what he might do to her if she spoke up again?
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[> I'd like to see some Drusilla / Tara interraction -- Stranger, 23:26:03 12/04/01 Tue
You know they might have a lot in common (well Drusilla mortal life with Tara pre-Scooby life)
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[> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla -- maddog, 08:54:32 12/05/01 Wed
Ya know...where she's not currently on any of the shows it makes me wonder if they've even thought
of it...though can you imagine her returning to Buffy after what's happened with Buffy and Spike?
can we say "fireworks"? :)
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[> [> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla -- Kimberly, 09:08:37 12/05/01
Wed
I'm not so sure. Isn't that why she left Spike for the antler-demon (can't remember what he actually
was) in the first place? If she already believed that she had lost Spike to Buffy, why would there be
fireworks? At the end of Crush, Dru seemed to realize that Spike was with Buffy, no matter how she
felt about it.
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[> [> [> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla -- maddog, 09:40:34 12/05/01
Wed
Because physical attraction and acting on it are completely different things(though I can't seem to
remember the end of Crush right now). If she just thought Spike was "hopeless" for being
attracted to Buffy(and therefore helping her) then maybe she comes back, hurt by something herself,
looking for a Spike who, possibly has been scorned by Buffy(which up until recently was true in the
romantic sense)...only to find that they've had sex. He wouldn't even need to tell her, that intuition
she has is amazing. I think she'd go through the roof. Eccentric behavior and all.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla Spoilers Seasons Two
through Six -- Kimberly, 11:32:11 12/05/01 Wed
My initial thought was that you were completely right. Then I went to Psyche's site to check the
transcript. Right at the end of the episode, Spike unlocks Buffy (right before it appears that Dru is
going to bite her). She looks at the two of them and says (quote from Psyche) "Poor Spike...
(shot of Spike and Buffy staring at her) so lost. (tearfully) Even I can't help you now." With her
intuition, I expect she knows that the sex is a foregone conclusion.
Also, hasn't Dru always contolled Spike? Even when she was weak, she controlled Spike through her
disability. Spike is now standing up for himself; I doubt he'd be willing to let anyone control him
anymore. That includes Buffy; he wants her, but he won't be her whipping boy any more.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Will love redeem her? AKA The fate of Drusilla Spoilers Seasons
Two through Six -- Rufus, 01:57:35 12/06/01 Thu
I don't think that Dru controlled Spike through her disability. She controlled him by her ability to
make him feel efflugent. She saw his strengths, his wisdom and glory. She may be a nut but she is a
nut with vision. Spike may have treated Dru well while she was incapacitated, but the power in that
relationship was always hers. She made him a vampire and started him on the road of discovery that
eventually excluded her. I can never stay angry at Dru because she is one of the most tragic figures
in the show. She was purity and love, twisted into insantiy and fear. Her destruction of life goes
against all she lived for. She still is in a desperate search for the family lost when Angelus decided to
become enamoured of her. She is the only vampire I want dead for reasons other than they are evil
killers. She deserves to be returned to the love of her family to make right what Angelus did over a
century ago. She is lost and needs to find the peace taken from her by Angelus and Darla.
Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- Darby, 09:34:54 12/04/01 Tue
The assumption always seems to be that the gypsies invented a curse for Angel that happened to
have a hard-to-explain "happiness" clause in it. What if they just appropriated a curse
already known to them, a type of zombie (well, not really) activation?
Say someone who has done you major wrong has died and presumably gone somewhere very
unpleasant - that's not enough, you want to SEE them tormented. Bring them back into their body
with a curse that gives them life but forces them to, upon pain of death and a return to damnation,
avoid any activity that might make them "truly" happy. That would be a fairly nasty
torment.
Along comes Angelus. Bad stuff, need for revenge, what can we do, well we've got THIS thing... The
gypsies assumed that ANY souled human would be appalled at Angel's actions and would be
tormented by the memories of his actions. There's the "escape" clause, but so what - how
could such a tormented soul ever experience happiness as might come from the totally accepting love
of a soulmate? And if Angel did not know that there WAS such a clause, he couldn't purposely flee
from his guilt. And hey, it worked pretty well for what, a century-?
There is no way to know, but I assume that Jenny (and subsequently Willow) tracked back to some
version of the original spell and invoked it, happiness clause and all, so Angel is still cursed the same
way.
If there are parents on the Angel writing staff, I'd start to worry about this "child of
Angel" storyline - hooking up with a sweetie is not the only way to get a moment of pure
happiness in this world...
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[> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- Wolfhowl3, 10:17:10 12/04/01 Tue
I think, when Willow re-cursed him, she didn't include the whole Total Happiness Clause, and she
didn't even know it.
I think this, because when Angel got out of hell, and realized where he was, he would have been very
happy! Since he still has a soul now, that means that the happy clause is not there.
I know there was an story in Angel where he got drugged, and Angelous came back for a little while,
but that is because the human soul was high, and thus not strong enough to hold the Demon back.
Also, they didn't have to recast the spell to get Angel back, so that part of the curse is gone.
You know what that means, he can Love is son, and Cordy. (they seem to be getting much
closer!)
All questions, comments and Flames are welcome
Wolfhowl
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[> [> Intersting theory -- The Last Jack, 10:36:21 12/04/01 Tue
I like your explaination of what happened to Angel when he got high. It makes alot of sense, and
explains why he didn't lose his soul.
However, I still think Angel is cursed with the happiness clause. Sorry ;)
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[> [> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- maddog, 08:16:47 12/05/01 Wed
What you say makes sense...cause also, remember in Pylea when he notices that the sun isn't
burning him? How crazy happy was he then?
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[> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- Rufus, 14:32:25 12/04/01 Tue
The people that did this curse are long dead and their wisdom lost. They were the real deal and were
very specific in their punishment of Angel. Angel was always meant to suffer. The soul wasn't placed
in him to protect humanity, it was there to punish him. His actions proved that for many years. It
was the interevention of the PTB's that put Angel on the road to redemption.
Enyos: Jenny Calendar.
Jenny spins around, startled. She stares at him in surprise.
Jenny: You startled me.
Enyos: You look well. (steps up to her desk)
Jenny: Yes, I'm fine. (goes around her desk) I know I haven't written as much lately. I've been
busy.
Enyos: I cannot imagine what is so important to make you ignore the responsibility to your
people.
Jenny: Well, I've been working and...
Enyos: (interrupts) The elder woman has been reading signs. Something is different.
Jenny: Nothing has changed. The curse still holds.
Enyos: The elder woman is never wrong. She says his pain is lessening. She can feel it.
Jenny: (looks down) There is...
Enyos: There is what?
Jenny: (looks up) A girl.
Enyos: (exhales in disgust) What? How could you let this happen?
Jenny: I promise you. Angel still suffers. And he makes amends for his evil. He even saved my
life.
Enyos: So you just forget that he destroyed the most beloved daughter of your tribe?! That he
*killed* every man, woman and child that touched her life?! Vengeance demands that his pain be
eternal as ours is! If this, this girl gives him one *minute* of happiness, it is one minute too
much!
Jenny: I'm sorry. I thought...
Enyos: You thought what?! You thought you are Jenny Calendar now?! You are still Janna, of the
Kalderash people! A Gypsy.
Jenny: I know... Uncle. I know.
Enyos: Then prove it. Your time for watching is past. The girl and him, it ends now! Do what you
must to take her from him!
Jenny: I will see to it.
Jenny was a new world girl. She, unlike her family could see that there could be a higher purpose for
Angel. Her family did not. They were in the revenge business..that is what they lived for.
Cut to Enyos' hotel room. He lectures Jenny.
Enyos: You know what it is, this thing vengeance?
Jenny: Uncle, I have served you. I have been faithful. I need to know...
Enyos: (interrupts) To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another.
Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It
commands. It kills.
Jenny: You told me to watch Angel. You told me to keep him from the Slayer. I tried. But there are
other factors. There are terrible things happening here that we cannot control.
Enyos: We control nothing. We are not wizards, Janna. We merely play our part.
Jenny: Angel could be of help to us. I mean, he may be the only chance we have to stop the
Judge.
Enyos: It is too late for that.
Jenny: Why?
Enyos: The curse. Angel is meant to suffer, not to live as human. One moment of true happiness, of
contentment, one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that
soul is taken from him.
Jenny: Then, if somehow, if... if it's happened... then Angelus is back.
Enyos: I hoped to stop it. But I realize now it was arranged to be so.
Jenny: Buffy loves him.
Enyos: And now she will have to kill him.
Jenny: (stands up) Unless he kills her first! Uncle, this is insanity! People are going to die.
Enyos: Yes. It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance.
Jenny: (exhales and grabs her coat and bag) You are a fool. We're all fools.
Her uncle just watches her go and shakes his head.
There was a battle between a new and old way of thinking. Enyos could only stay in the past with it's
need for revenge, even if at the price of future generations and countless other innocent people. I
think it says something about some of our own tendencies to only look at our hurt and miss a bigger
picture. It also asks a bigger question about how much vengeance is enough before people can forgive
each other. Vengeance can take over lives, destroy countries, all for causes that no longer have
reason. Angel was to suffer, and he did. So, how much suffering is enough for a vampire that has
killed thousands? If he can serve a higher purpose, can we forget what he did and let him at least
atone for some of what he did? Vengeance isn't just payback, it can be a force that becomes out of
control. It can kill countless amounts of innocents, all for payback. The gypsies wanted Angel to
suffer, it didn't much matter who suffered with him. The loss of their favorite daughter so long ago
was tragic, the loss the future generations chained to Angels curse suffered, is tragic and pointless.
Jenny had the right idea, she knew that the curse and it's consequences were foolish. Only some
people change many get stuck in old ways unable to see the benefits of getting on with life.
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[> I never had a problem with Angel's curse... -- Moose, 15:33:26 12/04/01 Tue
It was a "curse" afterall, the whole point to punish Angel. What good is it if it allows him
to feel pure happiness and bliss? It was meant to torment him!
The pure happiness clause isn't so much a clause in a contract as a way of breaking the spell. People
seem to be mixing the end result with the spell itself. Yes, the gypsie curse wasn't an effective way to
end Angelus's reign of terror, but it wasn't supposed to be. Their goal was to torment Angel. The
curse was a reflection of that.
They didn't want Angel dead, they wanted to punish him. When the curse fails to do just that (ie.,
when Angel experiences pure happiness) the curse is broken. Simple.
And I agree with the commentary on vengeance. It was a short-sighted curse, one that had
"damn the consequences-I want him to suffer" written all over it. Little wonder that it
backfires and many more suffer. But hey, that's vengeance for you.
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[> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- maddog, 08:15:17 12/05/01 Wed
What was Jenny/WIllow's spell though? Was it anti hapiness? cause I always thought it was soul
restoration. And it's always made me wonder if the curse was still intact. Cause if it's not then he
could have stayed with Buffy...course that kills the spinoff but hey....
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[> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- MrDave, 22:29:07 12/05/01 Wed
What will REALLY twist your noodle is...
The spell was lost for years but the spell ingrdients were common enough that a run-of-the-mill
magic store had the ingredients. Now that the spell has been re-discovered by Willow, they could
give ANY vampire a soul, right?
Darla...
Spike...
Dru...
anyone else we could add to this list?
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[> [> Giving a soul back to Dru ? That would just be cruel and probably pointless -- Stranger,
22:52:27 12/05/01 Wed
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[> [> Re: Was Angel's curse "off the rack"? -- maddog, 09:22:51 12/06/01 Thu
No, but imagine if it were's Spike's wish? They could do that for him...then he'd be an Angel clone,
but at least then he'd be more "fit" in most people's eyes(was gonna say everyone, but
forgot that Xander never liked the souled Vampire concept) eyes.
Today's tvguide.com poll: What's wrong with Buffy? -- Iago, 09:37:41 12/04/01 Tue
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[> That poll sucked! -- vampire hunter D, 11:33:12 12/04/01 Tue
I didn't like any of those choices. And I don't think any of them are what Joss has in store for
us.
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[> [> yeah: "She's an angel/immortal/dying again/a new key/a demon/a vampire." I
forget simplicity here. -- res, 19:57:45 12/04/01 Tue
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[> [> Re: That poll sucked! -- maddog, 08:00:24 12/05/01 Wed
I guessed an angel, just for the hell of it. But overall I don't think it's fair to say what's wrong with a
show when there's nothing wrong with it...just my opinion though.
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[> [> [> Re: That poll sucked! (spoilers for "smashed") -- Rob, 08:46:15 12/05/01
Wed
Oh, they weren't referring to the show being wrong. They were referring to Spike's assumption that
Buffy came back wrong when she was resurrected.
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[> [> [> [> Re: The title of that poll sucked! -- CW, 09:25:59 12/05/01 Wed
Right Rob, but when I first saw the title, I also thought they meant there was something wrong with
the show.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: The title of that poll sucked! -- Rob, 12:46:16 12/05/01 Wed
Oh, I get what you mean. Yeah I thought the wording of the title was weird, too. I clicked on it
originally to make sure they weren't referring to the quality of the show. Thankfully, they were
not.
Some people, (such as Wanda from E! grr arrgh) have been saying that "Buffy," as a
show, is not up-to-par this year. Of course, most people, me included, think that episode quality is at
amazing highs and the yearlong story arc is turning into something pretty intriguing.
Rob
Fictionary Corner Update -- Liq, 10:00:34 12/04/01 Tue
You guys are wearing me out with your incredible output of essays and stories. Here's some
updates:
* Malandanza's 3rd chapter: Jedi Mind Tricks has been added to his story:
Newton's Third Law
* Several essays have been added, including Rowan's Kissing A Fool, and
Power & Control in Smashed, as well as D'Herblay's apocryphal Buffy 2.
* Lady Starlight has some great stories for us and I might even put a
little one of my own if I decide to share it.
* I am also in the process of new sections for OnM's amazing episode
reviews and Classic Movies of the Week.
* The Essay menu page is in the process of being fixed (yea, I know,
finally) and I might even give the appropriate credit to the
appropriate writers if the mood strikes me (Dedalus and dH :)
* The September Board Archives are also ready to post thanks to the
efforts of Masq and dH.
Keep those cards and letters coming folks!
xo LJ
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[> Re: Fictionary Corner Update -- Rob, 10:06:48 12/04/01 Tue
On the Fictionary Corner page, when I click on "Essays," I get a pic of Spike saying
"Where's the bloody page?"
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[> [> Rob, click on the HERE to get the graphics free version. -- rowan, 10:14:40 12/04/01
Tue
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[> Please use this link until the graphics are fixed ... -- Liq, 10:15:17 12/04/01 Tue
Fictionary Corner Index
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[> Thanks for all the hard work! -- rowan, 10:15:57 12/04/01 Tue
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[> [> Thanks for the link, guys! :) -- Rob, 10:24:07 12/04/01 Tue
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[> Re: Be sure to hit the refresh button many times on my essays.... -- mundusmundi, 13:13:26
12/04/01 Tue
If I'm going to catch up on hits with Ded and d'Herb. (Ja, right.)
More annoying busy work for you, Liq: My "Now and Then" essay comes up as
"page cannot be found." The other one is fine.
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[> [> fixed! -- Liq, 13:52:24 12/04/01 Tue
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[> [> [> Re: Danke -- mm, 14:30:50 12/04/01 Tue
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[> OMG! -- GreatRewards, 14:16:42 12/04/01 Tue
I just read the first three chapters of malandanza's "Newton's Third Law". It was
phenomenal!! I giggled like a little schoolgirl at the banter between the Nerd Troika! LOL!
More! More! More! Please?
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[> Re: Nice to See You Again, Liquidram -- Dedalus, 19:34:06 12/04/01 Tue
Is Xander a Schlemiel? (longish) -- Zus, 10:29:59
12/04/01 Tue
I have often seen discussions on this board concerning Buffy and the hero's journey. Where does
Xander fit in this journey? Some have speculated that he may be the fool. I would like to offer some
evidence that Xander does fit with that archetype based on a book I've been reading by Ruth Wisse
called The Schlemiel as Modern Hero. For anyone who doesn't know, the schlemiel is a well
established jewish character-type. He appears in literature as far back as Purim plays in the 15th
century and is embodied in more recent literature by such characters as Gimpel the Fool and Tevye.
While I realize, of course, that Xander is probably not Jewish (it would seem to have been mentioned,
as it has been for Willow), I do think that much of what he does and says can be paralleled with the
classic definition of the schlemiel. For example, the schlemiel is often vulnerable and ineffectual in
his efforts at self-advancement and self-preservation. He is always a potential victim. However, he
"is the model of endurance, his innocence a shield against corruption, his absolute
defenselessness the only guaranteed defense against the brutalizing potential of might" (Wisse
5). He appears weak and foolish to those who dominate him, and up to a point he shares that view.
But, he survives; so, is he as foolish as he seems?
Additionally, the traditional schlemiel often displays a perpensity for inappropriately-timed humor,
but his innapropriate responses often relieve the tension of a desperate moment. His unusual
outlook and interpretation of reality may permit optimism; whereas, a rational response would lead
to despair. He is often seen as luckless or inept. "He owns little, accomplishes little, and [has]
little effect on his environment, yet, his littleness impresses us with its size" (Wisse 24). The
schlemiel is loved by the audience because he challenges the whole accepted notion of heroism. Ben
Zoma says, "Who is Mighty? He who subdues his urges." The schlemiel is mighty because
he subdues his urge to be a hero. The schlemiel is generally (and maybe the only) survivor of any
epic story. Powerless and unlucky, he often triumphs psychologically or spiritually. Also, the
schlemiel character may not be such a fool as he appears. He may be choosing to play the fool in
order to retain his moral sanity in the face of universal doom or cynicism. Finally, the schlemiel
remains a boy-man even when fully grown. Saul Bellow said of the schlemiel, "We make what
we can of our condition with the means available. We must accept what we find--impurity,
tragedy," and from that the schlemiel finds hope.
Therefor, I respectfully submit that Xander is the fool in this hero's journey. It explains so much.
And I wonder if Joss is aware of this convention. I would guess yes.
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[> Slayin' in the Sixties when the Air was Cool (spoilers) -- Yellowork, 11:35:19 12/04/01 Tue
In the novel, *V* Thomas Pynchon presents the anti-hero as a 'schlemiel', which was my only other
real experience of the term — one which I like, probably because of the way it sounds (little things
for little minds!). *Buffy* reminds me of *V*, which takes place in the mid 1950s, and as someone
was saying on the board last week, the link between the two are the currents which were rising up
against the 1950s conformist mid-American lifestyle which Cordelia and to some extent Joyce
symbolise in the series. These currents I think can be seen to feed into the origins of the beatniks
and later the 1960s counter-culture. I imagine the Slayer in the period was manifest as someone a
bit like Grandma Simpson, a young married 'square' who is forced into the real world of
uncertainties by her calling.
Black polo necks rule! [ Poor George :-( ]
But that's all by the by: I think you have got Xander sussed much!
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[> No ... -- Shiver, 12:14:49 12/04/01 Tue
I would agree with the assumption right up to The Zeppo, when Xander comes into his own. He is a
far cry from helpless, evolves beyond comic relief. His leftover military knowledge from the ill-fated
Halloween episode has helped the gang on more than one occasion and he's learned to throw a mean
punch over the past 6 years.
I think Xander has a few S-like qualities, but to say he fits the archetype to the letter, is stretching it
IMO.
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[> [> Re: No ... -- Zus, 12:31:06 12/04/01 Tue
I believe that part of the point that Wisse and I are both trying to make is that this schlemiel
character, while appearing powerless and ineffectual to those around him, really has many heroic
and praise-worthy qualities. Part of his appeal is the dramatic irony that we as the audience can see
his heroic qualities in his simple actions, but the other characters either cannot or will not see them.
I would by no means characterize the character of Xander as simply comic relief. I am among those
who believe that he, if no one else, will see this journey through to the end along with Buffy.
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[> [> [> Re: No ... -- Shiver, 20:29:57 12/04/01 Tue
Nope, still disagree, the only one who rags on Xander any more is Spike, and that's just Spike. Anya
frets and worries over him, but he goes patrolling with everyone else and no one tells him to stay out
of the way or he'll get hurt. In fact Buffy specifically chooses him to go into the Initiative with her (to
Anya's dismay) because of his military memories. Nobody thinks he's powerless and ineffectual any
more. He made a fairly good showing against Olaf the Troll, so much so that Olaf decided to only kill
one of the girls instead of both. Xander hasn't had a whole lot of storylines to himself since The
Replacement, but he's not the whipping boy of the series any more. He's got the job, the girl, and he's
often Voice-Of-Reason guy. S1 and S2, and even early S3 Xander - yes, you can call him a schlemiel.
Current Xander, a resounding NO.
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[> [> [> Re: No ... -- maddog, 07:12:03 12/05/01 Wed
I'd have to disagree that the other characters don't see Xander's heroic qualities. While they know he
lacks the superpowerish qualities that they have, I think they fully appreciate his efforts. If
anything, the reason they attempt to hold him back is because they know he'll be such a hard worker
that he'll end up hurting himself, or worse.
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[> [> [> [> Re: No ... -- MrDave, 22:21:37 12/05/01 Wed
I have to agree that the S4+ X-man is not a Schlemiel archetype. He is more of the hero-we-all-want-
to be. In a world like Sunnydale where the word "Monster" on the front page of the
Newspaper is likely a regular event, the average Joe must harbor a tremendous amount of fear and
self-loathing theat they are unable or unwilling to act.
No so, Xander. As Buffy tells the council, "The 'boy' has logged more field-time than all of you
combined. He Stays." Xander is a footsoldier in the service of officers. When you are
surrounded by chiefs, someone has to be the Indian. Despite the fact he has no magic of his own
(although in OMwF he demonstrates at least a willingness to try--envy maybe?), no super strength,
no super intelligence, he has repeatedly demonstrated the ONE skill that no-one else in the SG
seems to have...Determination. Xander acts. He does not waffle, ponder, avoid, second-guess, or
procrastinate. He might delay somewhat (in reference to the Wedding for example), but it is always a
decision to do so (with his reasons carefully considered) rather than an attempt to avoid the
inevitable. He will go through with it because he has decided to do it. These are not the qualities of a
Schlemiel...
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: No ... -- maddog, 09:18:43 12/06/01 Thu
That trait...that die hard determination, acting on impulse, is what also makes him very human, and
at times annoying though. He's so protective of Buffy it's sad at times...first with Angel, then with
Riley. I mean, I like Xander...just one of those character faults that sticks in your head.
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[> Well, if Xander is the Schlemiel... -- WillowFan, 20:03:09 12/04/01 Tue
...then who's the Schlamazel? A Schlamazel fares even worse than a Schlemiel. The old Yiddish joke
is that the Schlemiel is always spilling hot soup all over the Schlamazel. The poor Schlamazel!
And another question: Can a Schlemiel be female? Wasn't Tara kind of a Schlemiel when Willow
first met her? Or was Willow the Schlemiel, and Tara the Schlamazel? (Or am I thinking of Laverne
and Shirley?)
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[> Re: Is Xander a Schlemiel? (longish) -- maddog, 06:59:13 12/05/01 Wed
You had me in agreement til it hit the part where the schlemiel "subdues his urge to be a
hero". That's not Xander...he lacks the naturally given gifts of Buffy and/or the amazing
Willowy brain power(that leads into her magic too). He gives the hero's effort even though he has
little to give. So yeah, that mostly sounds right except for the one part I pointed out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Is Xander a Schlemiel? -- Yellowork, 15:41:05 12/05/01 Wed
I think Xander 'is' the 'schlemiel' in the same way Buffy 'is' Red Riding Hood in 'Helpless'. That is,
the 'prototype' is used, built on, subverted and even ignored in places; but it is used to help the
audience to understand the character as he exists, which is somewhere between the archetype and
the individual, surely? It reminds me of the idea of 'différance' which is basically the theory that
texts are full of holes and they vacillate endlessly between alternative meanings and
interpretations.
I think Willow seen as the schlemiel or the schlamazel in early seasons, but she has changed now;
and other archetypes now come into play for her. She no longer subdues her 'urge to be a hero' - isn't
that what the current storyline is all about? — and thus we can't really see a way to view her as a
schlemiel / schlamazel on these grounds any more.
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[> Re: Is Xander a Schlemiel? (Also longish) -- Eric, 19:31:21 12/06/01 Thu
That's a pretty good essay. Zander may very well be that. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many scenes
where this is evident. I recently saw the ep where he had the slap fight with Harmony and realized
he'd been reduced to the Buffyverse Joxer. This is terribly inconsistant, since Zander always
amounted to more in previous season. Unlike Joxer, who believes he's a hero, Zander rarely labors
under that delusion. At best, he pretends to pretend. His soldier costume choice revealed an
adolescent desire to become what soldiers in popular culture resemble: brave, capable, and in control.
This image promotes the idea that heroic men feel no fear. In reality, heroism is feeling the fear and
doing the job anyway. Z does not seem to have ever cleared that mental hurdle in the face of his own
fear. But he does want to be a hero. In the alternate universe Zander was a "bad ass
vampire". Willow vamp rather eclipsed him in that ep, but it was apparent that he was equally
her partner and lover. Becoming a vampire in BtVS allows people to reveal their shadow selves. By
this I mean not only becoming a disciple of the dark side, but displaying portions of the personality
rejected by the rational mind. The fascades of self imposed identity vanish to allow them out. Some
of these are quite normal and good when expressed properly in the proper context. In Willow's case,
vampirism revealed dormant powers of her personality and lesbianism. Likewise, Evil Zander
revealed personality traits unknown to human Zander. He was mature in expressing his emotions
and a very capable, competent fighter. Of course, vampirism ensures these things are never
expressed properly or in the proper context. Its a crummy cure for psychosis. Willow's lesbianism is a
mere footnote to her sadism and both are servants of the Master.
Z may not be a great hero in BtVS, and he might be a Schlemiel. But he does care for his friends and
willingly risks his fear, life, and dignity to help them when he can. And this shouldn't be taken for
granted in the Buffyverse - in fact its a courage that borders on the insane. A similar act in our world
would be to buy tickets to Afganistan and present yourself, as is, sans language, weapon, or combat
skills, to the Northern Alliance as a foot soldier.
Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- diagnoztix, 10:47:52 12/04/01
Tue
I just wondered whether Buffy was invented as a sort of feminist thing - or whether the program
came about cus guys would get kicks seeing a girl kicking ass (The whole Lara Croft thing) Are there
just a load of hollow gender role reversals here - or is Buffy in a new Genre?
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- LoriAnn, 11:05:42 12/04/01
Tue
Isn't it possible that BtVS is neither of your choices? Does everything have to be about either power
or titillation? As far as being a new genre, you question seems to imply that the only two options you
offer are genres. They're not. BtVS's genre is a mixed one, horror, sci-fi, comedy, drama, even
musical comedy.
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- Shiver, 12:16:48 12/04/01
Tue
Buffy doesn't fit any stereotypical molds (unlike Angel, where the writers seem to like applying
anvillic stereotypes to the characters on a weekly basis). Hence the beauty that is the series.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Yea it's about Girl Power, but it's still better than Charmed. -- change, 17:25:16 12/04/01
Tue
BtVS used to try to appeal to a very wide audience. However, it's devolving into a Girl Power show as
time goes by. The female characters are being built up, and the story lines revolve more and more
around them. Buffy just becomes stronger and stronger. Last season she defeated a god. Now she's
no longer human. Willow's magic powers are also increasing and a large amount of this year's story
arc apparently evolves around her and Tara. Anya has gone (in one year) from being a shop girl to
running the shop.
The guys, on the other hand, are either being removed or made weak. Riley and Angel (the two
strongest male characters) have been removed. Riley was removed in a particularly ugly way. Giles
has been sent back to England. Xander has gone from being a hero who saves Buffy's life in the first
season, to "hiding behind his Buffy" whenever things get tough in the sixth season. Spike
had to be (figuratively) castrated before he could date Buffy. The villians for the season appear to be
a trio of geeks.
Although the show still has some elements of the original show, it is definitely written for the girls
now. I hope that changes because it's beginning to drag, but I'm not counting on it. On the other
hand, it's still a lot better than Charmed (which I have never been able to watch through a whole
episode).
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- Age, 19:51:36 12/04/01 Tue
If you are interested, after the section on symbolic interpretation, I make reference to the theme of
Girl Power in my posting below called:
Look at 'Smashed', 'Lullaby', 'Wrecked', Eden Myth Spoilers Part One -- Age, 10:08:11 11/30/01
Fri
The gist of my concern is that Girl Power is simple mimicking of male power; not the empowerment
of the feminine, but the empowering of women, ie the assimilation of women into the male power
culture. While our society has changed in that women have equality with men, this equality is
simply the green light for women to become men and take on all the same problems that men have in
dealing with their emotions, ie using power as a means of masking their own insecurities and fears.
This is shown through Buffy's and Willow's predicament this season.
Age.
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- maddog, 06:44:19 12/05/01
Wed
I think the answer lies in both of your assumptions(more so in the former than the latter). I think it
was made with the idea that it would be a very pro girl power idea, but they know with that concept
will bring young men out of the woodwork too.
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[> Re: Niether, it's about -adolescence- -- Lucifer_Sponge, 11:07:42 12/05/01 Wed
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- purplegrrl, 12:06:05 12/05/01
Wed
Joss has said that the creative impetus behind BtVS is that he he wanted to write about a blonde
young woman in a horror situation who would kick evil butt rather than being just so much monster
chow and turn up dead before the second act.
So it's not really a genre decision. (Besides, BtVS doesn't really fit very neatly in any of the genre
boxes -- there are parts hanging out over the edges!)
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[> [> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- Rufus, 12:58:09 12/05/01
Wed
Gee, maybe that's why we've gotten to see Xander and Wesley and a few times even Giles and Spike,
yelp or scream at a surprise or scary thing. I was sick of the typical horror flick that had the same
formula of screaming girls being slashed(specially if they had engaged in sexual behavior). This way
the girl who looks the most like she should be screaming is the one making the demons scream....I
like that.
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[> [> [> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- purplegrrl, 13:58:51
12/06/01 Thu
Being blonde, I was always annoyed that the blonde in the horror movies was the first one to die.
(Although it was rather tongue in cheek that Sarah Michelle Geller's character was the first to die in
"I Know What You Did Last Summer.")
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[> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- Eric, 18:32:51 12/06/01 Thu
Speaking as an, um, "lad" I DO enjoy watching Buffy in part because the women are hot.
(Yep, go ahead and feel that Righteous Indignation.) Of course I was raised during 40+ years of
feminism's modern incarnation. So while Buffy attracts the usual hormonal responses, I really like
the fact that she kicks ass. This is far more appealing than the women raised to be doormats in the
40's and 50's. I might add that as a character she appeals because she displays a certain emotional
vulnerability I (and many others) can sympathize with. After all, who hasn't faced at least one
problem they felt emotionally unable to deal with? This is often mistaken by villains as a critical
liability, but is actually evidence of emotional strength. It helps her in the long run. And when the
chips are down Buffy STILL kicks ass.
Now is this just another example perpetuating male stupidity by putting a skirt on it? Possibly -
depending on what you consider male stupidity. I agree that ridgid gender roles qualify. But on BtVS
none of the white hats get to battle Evil on their own terms.
I do not wish to see the show as nothing more than Girl Power promotion. The poster above is correct
in that it is leaning that way. My favorite male character is Zander - a person completely ill suited to
battle the forces of Evil. No special powers, no money, average intellect, just a guy willing to help his
friends whether it getting donuts, doing obscure research, or getting beaten like a red headed step
child. The only source of annoyance is his selfish protection/adoration of them that sometimes
translates into snide, inappropriate remarks. Unfortunately he's degenerating into the Buffyverse
Joxer.
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[> [> Re: Is BTVS all about Girl Power - or just kicks 4 the lads? -- Shaglio, 05:36:04 12/07/01
Fri
Whenever my friends tease me about watching Buffy because it's a "chick show," I
always say, "Hot chicks kicking the crap out of mosters with medieval weapons - what more
could a guy want?" That usually shuts them up.
September archives are up! -- Masquerade, 11:13:16 12/04/01 Tue
Go to The ATPoBtVS Discussion Board Archives
And click on "September 2001"
Read our season 6/season 3 speculations! See the keen insights that came out of our summer stir-
craziness! Reflect on our reactions to the tragic events of 9/11!
And much, much thanks to d'Herblay for pulling this together! clap, clap, clap
Live in N.E. OH? A "Hush" won't fall over the crowd on the 11th. -- Simplicity,
15:01:16 12/04/01 Tue
I looked up the Buffy schedule on www.tvguide.com for December 11th (the rebroadcast of 'Hush'.
We have something called "Jacob's Ladder" instead. Should we go to
www.hometeam43.com and complain?
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[> According to Yahoo! TV, it's Hush playing. -- Masq, 16:07:55 12/04/01 Tue
Is Yahoo's main Buffy page geared to the network at large, or local showings?
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[> [> WBZ (Boston?) showed Afterlife (UPN 38)... -- Wisewoman, 18:16:15 12/04/01 Tue
We got it on cable at 5 pm, and they showed scenes from "the UPN Premiere" of Hush for
next week.
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[> Re: Live in N.E. OH? A "Hush" won't fall over the crowd on the 11th. -- d'Herblay,
20:21:45 12/04/01 Tue
According to my handy-dandy basketball schedule, the Cavaliers play the Houston Rockets on
channel 43 that night with an 8:30 tip-off. "Hush" will be shown at 8 pm, Saturday the
15th.
inane musings -- yabyumpan, 15:37:28 12/04/01 Tue
There's a running joke in BtVS & AtS about Angel using "hair products", I've just
watched In the Dark again, where Spike goes to LA to get the Ring of Amarah from Angel and
listening to his opening speech he talks about Angel wearing "nancy boy hair gel" and I
thought - Pot calling the kettle black much....have we ever seen a hair out of place on the admitedly
lovely head of Spike, Angel's may well be "nancy boy gel" (no offence to Angel fans of
which I'm a huge one myself), but surely Spike's has got to be "industrial strength".
Maybe it's more "macho man hair gel"!!!!
Just thought I'd share this inane and totally anti-intellectual musing, I do like to lower the
tone.
he he he he
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[> Re: inane musings -- Masq, 15:44:36 12/04/01 Tue
In retrospect, his whole speech in "in the dark" is ironic, considering he said Angel's love
for Buffy and his curse defanged him and now he was just a "big fluffy puppy with bad
teeth". Spike's chip and his love for buffy defanged him.
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[> [> Ah, but now he has...his rocks back. -- rowan, 15:49:35 12/04/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> It remains to be seen what he does with them. -- Masq, 15:56:11 12/04/01 Tue
In the short term, he seems more interested in shagging her than harming her.
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[> [> [> [> Re: It remains to be seen what he does with them. -- rowan, 16:43:47 12/04/01
Tue
More power to Buffy -- it's about time ME let her have a decent sex life. I mean, doesn't she get some
joy for putting her life on the line every night? I'll have to check into whether that's allowed in the
hero's handbook.
:)
rowan
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[> Re: inane musings -- fresne, 16:49:12 12/04/01 Tue
Which brings us to some deep philosophical musings which have long vexed me.
Clearly many vampires use hair care products, makeup etc. How exactly do they do that without a
mirror? Is it a special (although not much discussed) power that vampires have, the ability to put on
eyeliner without looking?
I'd say yeah, except Angel's clear use of hair products to stick his hair straight up would argue
against extra-sensory grooming abilities. Or, is that because he has a soul. It interferes with his
abilities?
And Spike's hair. Was that a one time bleach job (he's dead his hair don't grow) or does he have to
touch up the roots (he's undead, his hair grows just fine)? If touched up, just how does a guy sans
bathroom and no mirror access privileges do that?
And ultimately, what does the obsession with hair products mean? Philosophically that is?
These products are used to structure hair that sits upon the head, the seat of reason and therefore
must indicate a desire to shape and restructure oneself.
In many ways hair represents vampires…hair beyond a certain length is dead and is virtually
indestructible, although a trifle flammable and is inclined to spit ends.
Don't so much take it and run, as walk slowly away. Nodding and smiling. Smiling and
nodding.
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[> [> Vamp Hair has to grow... :) -- Ardent, 18:17:28 12/04/01 Tue
Look at Angel Flashbacks... He has sideburns at times, among other things.
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[> [> [> As long as we're talking hair and gel.... -- Nina, 19:34:04 12/04/01 Tue
In Wrecked we have a "sans gel Spike" when Buffy wakes him up in his crypt. His hair
are not slick back or anything. Next shot he has gel... Does this mean that Spike decided to put gel to
go out before looking for Dawn? "Oh wait Buffy.... I want to help you find little bit, but I have
to put some gel in my hair or I won't be fit to go out!"
I know it's probably just a mistake.. still it's funny!
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[> [> [> [> Demon hair stylists -- Deeva, 21:37:27 12/04/01 Tue
Maybe there are demon hair stylists out there, just like there are demon bars and bath houses and
so on. I don't think that Spike bleaches his own hair, so someone has to do it. And as for Angel,
someone had to tell him what to do with his hair after he lost the ponytail. What a job, huh?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Ha!!!! -- sl, 17:42:45 12/04/01 Tue
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[> Re: inane musings -- Cynthia, 19:08:31 12/04/01 Tue
I love how either Buffy's or Spike's hair as out of place despite a long passionate night. And while
bruised and scratched, not a a smig of dirt or plaster on them. And the clothes, spotless.
Wish I could do that LOL.
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[> [> Re: inane musings -- Deeva, 21:38:53 12/04/01 Tue
I thought I saw a bit of soot on Spike but maybe it was just a shadow.
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[> [> [> Re: inane musings -- RH, 07:07:38 12/05/01 Wed
It could have been a bruise...
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[> [> Re: inane musings -- Bill C, 07:21:18 12/05/01 Wed
And the clothes, spotless. Wish I could do that
So does that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
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[> [> [> Boy, that would have saved us a ton of trouble! -- Jen C., 14:45:28 12/05/01
Wed
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[> [> [> [> Demon hair care -- Yellowork, 15:55:13 12/05/01 Wed
I grew up rather fast in a house where all the mirrors didn't. The result of this was that after a while
it was awkward to see myself above my shoulders in them. So ... I didn't look. Just ask a blind guy;
it's perfectly possible to style your hair, shave, put on make up and so on without looking at your
image in a mirror. The mirror doesn't quite present the world as it really is, anyway.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: inane musings -- anom, 21:56:07 12/05/01 Wed
I've referred in a couple of earlier posts to Spike's "punky-boy hair dye that he likes so
much." Didn't get much of a response.
And how ridiculous is it that Angel "didn't know" his hair stood up (when he can see his
reflection in Pylea)? He'd seen it in I Will Remember You & didn't comment on it. And come on,
hair doesn't get that way by itself. Cordelia knows he must have hair gel when she stays (uninvited)
w/him in the ep whose title I can't remember, the one where she finds her haunted apt. He puts the
stuff on his hair but he doesn't know it makes the hair stand up?
About why vampires are concerned w/their looks, I don't think it matters that they can't see
themselves. They're more interested in having a "look"--whether menacing, innocent (the
better to lure victims), cool, or whatever. It's not about seeing themselves, it's about how others,
human or vamp, perceive them. After all, they see these looks on humans & know what they
"mean" in the context of the society of the day.
New Angel Ep Next Week -- Wisewoman, 18:31:33 12/04/01 Tue
The Angel's Acolyte spoiler site (http://angelsacolyte.tripod.com/) is reporting that next week's (Dec.
10) episode of Angel will be "Dad," a new episode.
Yay! Takes the sting out of no Buffy...
;o)
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[> Re: You bringer of good news. Please bring more. ;-) -- bible belt, 19:18:54 12/04/01 Tue
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[> Re: New Angel Ep Next Week -- Rufus, 19:34:29 12/04/01 Tue
Can hardly wait. I just have to find out what they are going to do with the baby storyline.....
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[> [> Ending it quickly, with any luck -- Tanker, 22:38:33 12/04/01 Tue
I am SO not interested in the Angel baby storyline, I don't have words to express it. My interest in
the show is hanging by a thread.
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[> Yes, but next week's Buffy is "Hush"!!!! Not that new Angel is not good but
"Hush"! ;o) -- Deeva, 21:26:36 12/04/01 Tue
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[> [> I'm so excited! I've never seen Hush before!! -- MayaPapaya9, 22:07:56 12/04/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> You're in for quite a treat!! -- Kimberly, 06:19:40 12/05/01 Wed
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[> [> [> It's a keeper, MayaPapaya! I couldn't walk by a dark uncurtained window for a long
time!! -- Deeva, 09:34:22 12/05/01 Wed
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[> There was a teaser for it after this week's Angel rerun... -- Iago, 01:12:09 12/05/01 Wed
So is BTVS now more popular with a female
audience? -- Diagnoztix, 06:38:50 12/05/01 Wed
To continue my earlier Q -If the show's becoming a bit tired now - has the show's audience changed?
Is it watched predominantly by females now? (You can really tell I'm a student writing an essay on
Buffy, can't you!!)Thanx 4 ur help Age :-)
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[> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- maddog, 06:45:35 12/05/01
Wed
I haven't exactly gotten to your previous posts but I was under the assumption that teenager girls
was it's main fanbase....do people have the numbers to disgree?
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[> [> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- JM, 07:05:14 12/05/01
Wed
Don't have numbers, but some research may be in order. I'm pretty sure that I have seen a number
of articles mentioning that the fanbase is twenties to thirties, and the teen thing is a
misperception.
Don't think it's getting tired. In a different artistic phase than S1.
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[> [> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- Lilac, 07:13:02 12/05/01
Wed
I don't know if the official stats will support what I have observed in my own family -- but my
husband and I both see Buffy and Angel both as no miss TV, as does our 14 year old son, as did my
67 year old mother (who LOVES Spike) until her compromised eyesight made watching it impossible
for her. So, none of us are teenage girls and we are all devoted watchers -- but no one official has ever
asked us about it.
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[> [> [> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- maddog, 07:33:24
12/05/01 Wed
I know Joss has always said that he aimed the show at the late teen, early twenty crowd. And by the
last two posts it's obvious it has quite the span of ages watching it. hmm, where to dig those numbers
from. :)
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[> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- Rattletrap, 08:50:33 12/05/01
Wed
Remember that the audience changes with the show. Someone watching "Welcome to the
Hellmouth" in 1996 as a 15 year-old HS freshman would now be 21 and likely in college. The
audiences ages along with the characters, something that the WB never fully understood.
That said, Buffy is a show that can, I think, be resonant with people of all ages, sexes, and
backgrounds. Just the diversity of posters represented on this board is astounding, and everyone
seems to get something out of it. The show is well served by the move to UPN, where it is marketed
to a broader audience than just teenage girls. In response to the earlier thread--yes, on some level
Buffy is about girl power, but that is not necessarily exclusive. Many men are supportive of women's
rights and gender equality and are not put off by a show that advances those themes. Moreover, in
the last few seasons, I feel like BtVS has moved beyond simplistic gender themes to a much broader
appeal, despite the steadily declining male representation in the regular cast. The things Buffy,
Willow, and the others experience are not that different from the things I experience in my life as a
25 year-old man. In other words, yes, Buffy is about girl power, and oh so much more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Hard to say. -- Solitude1056, 08:50:41 12/05/01 Wed
The only significant numbers are those of the Neilson ratings, and that's just not a statistically valid
system as far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's only like one in every so many households, and normally
very whitebread designation... so determining the makeup of the audience is a guesstimate at best.
The advertisements are usually the best indicator of who the station/distributor thinks is going to
watch a show, and both AtS and BtVS seem to be top-heavy on late-teen type products. Let's see,
various hair dye products showing lots of nubile young females bouncing around & looking
happy, Old Navy (with more nubile folks doing the happy bounce), AOL (again showing various
nubile late-teens of both genders bouncing around looking excited about chat rooms), fast food chains
(with yet more nubile folks of both genders), and pre-paid cell phone ads (yet again highlighting
nubile late-teens). Hm, Victoria's Secret is probably going for the twenties-age crowd (with a side
benefit of eye candy for some other members of the audience). Gee, you think they're expecting late
high school & college age kids to be the major audience?
It's possible that this age group is the majority of the audience, but it's not all. The median age of the
writers appears to be roughly in the thirties, so there's naturally going to be an element of maturity
that sneaks in here & there - and both shows have (or had, prior to Giles' departure) characters
that reflected the POV of any older audience members. I'd suggest that while the bulk of the
expected audience is under 25, the rest - maybe as high as 40% - is made up of adults up to seniors
who also enjoy the show. However, the only ones who'd spend the time & money to investigate
the audience might be advertisers wanting to make sure they're reaching the intended audience for
their product, and they're not going to bother as long as WB, UPN, and Fox are insistent that the
audience is predominantly aged 14 to 25.
As for the gender of the audience, I've met as many females who are bored by the show (for whatever
reason) as I've met males who think it's a chick show. And among friends who enjoy the show, there
are as many guys if not slightly more. A few months ago, I took a general poll off the listings on the
"meet the posters" pages. Roughly 50% of the folks did not explicitly or implicitly list a
gender (implicit = using "girl" or "boy" in the name, identifying as a
"mom" or "dad," for instance). Of the folks who could be identified, the
division was almost equal between male and female, with the largest audience group falling in the
29-35 age group. Obviously not the most statistically accurate, and the details are probably in the
August or September archives if you want more info. That's just a segment of the population. A
noisier board such as BAPS may make it look like the bulk of the audience is 29-45 aged women who
like Spike... so it's going to be hard to get an accurate idea, but I think it's reasonable to suggest we
can debunk the notion that it's 90% women who are watching the show. ;-)
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[> [> Re: Hard to say. -- Rattletrap, 08:55:26 12/05/01 Wed
Good points, Sol. It's also worth mentioning that the Nielsens historically neglect some groups.
College students huddled around a TV in a dorm room watching Buffy would rarely show up at all,
and even young singles tend to be a bit more invisible than do nuclear families. It is distinctly
possible that BtVS has a much larger following than its generally low ratings would lead one to
conclude. Drawing any conclusions about the makeup of its audience seems even more
spurious.
I do get the feeling this board breaks down roughly 50-50 between men and women, but that's just a
guess.
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[> [> Re: Hard to say. -- maddog, 09:29:25 12/05/01 Wed
Well Angel was always meant for an older crowd...that's why they spun him off(besides the fact that
Boreanz and Carpenter were both in their late 20's and looking for more mature themes). I think
Buffy's always had maturity in it, especially for the age group they were dealing with and that's
what made it so watchable for the older(20+) crowd.
The one reason I've never considered the Nielsen's fair is the market for the non big 4 networks...is it
fair to blame the WB and UPN for not being in as many households? That's why they're stuck
constantly above the 100 mark. If everything was evenly distributed(as many NBC affiliates as WB
or UPN) then I have a feeling those Nielsen's would be quite different.
The only problem with your poll(even with "a noisier board") is your talking about a very
narrow field...first of all, you're cutting off viewers who aren't on the internet...and as common as it's
becoming, it's still isn't as big as you'd think. Then of those that are, you're cutting off those that
actually are SO interested in it that they want to learn something about it, maybe even discuss it.
Cause believe it or not there are people out there who watch the show for pure enjoyment and don't
do any of this internet stuff. :)
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[> [> [> Re: Hard to say. -- Kimberly, 11:10:55 12/05/01 Wed
"Cause believe it or not there are people out there who watch the show for pure enjoyment and
don't do any of this internet stuff. :)"
Hard to believe, isn't it. This is almost more fun than watching the show.
(Then again, I've been known to read non-fiction just to keep the brain cells alive. :-))
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hard to say. -- Edward, 19:21:02 12/05/01 Wed
(Then again I've been known to read non-fiction just to keep the brain cells alive. :-))
Speaking as her spouse, don't let her fool you all, Kimberly will read ANYTHING that is printed.
When desperate that includes things like Kleenex boxes etc. :-)
A family joke is that when the Grim Reaper finally comes for her, she will tell him "Just let me
finish the chapter.."
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[> [> [> [> [> Oooooo that remark requires punishment..........;) -- Rufus, 21:00:29
12/05/01 Wed
Kleenex boxes have a wealth of information on them.....but it is much better she come here where we
will make her use kleenex to either cry or laugh.....much more fun....:):)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooooo that remark requires punishment..........;) -- Edward,
22:11:55 12/05/01 Wed
True, she hasn't been reading any Kleenex boxes since she discovered this forum...
We do seem to be rewatching alot of old episodes though ;)
As to punishment, I think Spike would say something like "Yes have some." I'm more
Xander like though (Hence the ill timed remark), so I'm cringing at the thought. :)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But you are watching them together............ -- Rufus,
23:47:05 12/05/01 Wed
The good part of all this is even though most people are going Oooo and Ahhh over the bad girl or
boy...think Spike or Faith/Evil Willow too....most people end up back in reality and find a
Xander/Riley or Willow. I'm just not fond of bad boys myself, finding I have a rather sadistic streak
when it comes to players. So I married a Riley type of guy. So, for Christmas buy her an Action Spike
and she will think you are the Big Bad.......;)
My husband also watches the show, even though he denies knowing much about it. But I'm the Big
Bad in this house........
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But you are watching them together............ --
Kimberly, 06:14:34 12/06/01 Thu
Definitely Xander. And he gets punished. And punished. And punished. :-)
And the kid told me last night that I'm the Big Bad in the house. (I'm meaner; I actually make him
do what I say I will. :-))
Yeah, no more time for Kleenex boxes, cereal boxes, and other stray pieces of paper. And don't let
him fool you; he's loving rewatching the old episodes, except I have to keep reminding him where
they are in sequence. No, dear, he doesn't get killed for several more episodes. Etc.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hard to say. -- maddog, 09:00:35 12/06/01 Thu
Though it would be nice if we could all do this in person...the ideas would flow better.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hard to say. -- Kimberly, 09:04:43 12/06/01 Thu
Yeah, in some ways this is worse than a phone conversation, which I hate. Of course, this way I can
actually think of what I want to say and say it, instead of losing the conversation in the process, so
that's cool.
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[> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- Rob, 09:42:02 12/05/01 Wed
Diagnoztix said:
"If the show's becoming a bit tired now - has the show's audience changed? Is it watched
predominantly by females now?"
First off, I have to say, jumping up and down and screaming, THE SHOW IS NOT TIRED NOW!
Episode quality is at an all-time high, and the show is tackling multitudes of complex themes. Yes,
the show may be going in a different direction than we would have imagined in Season One, but a
show must develop and change as its characters do.
Rattletrap said:
"Remember that the audience changes with the show. Someone watching "Welcome to
the Hellmouth" in 1996 as a 15 year-old HS freshman would now be 21 and likely in college.
The audiences ages along with the characters, something that the WB never fully
understood."
This is the exact situation that happened to me. I am proud to be the same age as the characters on
"Buffy." It is, in fact, why I relate to this show more than any other I have ever watched.
These characters have literally grown up with me, since I started watching around the age of 16,
until now. The level of maturity the show has reached now parallels the level of maturity its
audience has reached. That is why "Buffy" appeals to all ages and both sexes. It does not
remain stagnant in its beliefs and does not try to only pander to one audience. And, as I said before,
it is a show that has grown with its audience in many ways. Compare the mature characters on
"Buffy" to the emotionally stilted ones on "Dawson's Creek," for example. The
characters on shows like DC have not grown one bit, NOT ONE BIT since the first episode. How do I
know? My mom is a big DC fan, and it's on every week in my house. And I can tell you the characters
are stuck in a neverending soap opera in which they repeat the same dumb mistakes over and over
again. Look at the first season of "Buffy" and then look at the characters now. They have
changed a great deal. That is why every new season of "Buffy" becomes my favorite while
it is first on.
And as far as the question about a female audience goes, I don't understand why your claim that the
show is getting "a bit tired" would tie in with having a largely female audience. As far as
I know, and from the evidence in the previous posts, people of all ages, sexes, faiths, etc. watch and
adore "Buffy."
Rob
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[> Re: So is BTVS: Some Spoilers for Buffy and Angel, especially 'Billy.' -- Age, 11:11:37 12/05/01
Wed
You are welcome.
Of the few people I know personally who watch it, the majority of them are guys, including
myself.
I see 'Buffy' as a human, not a feminist show. We all have feminine and masculine qualities in us to
some degree, and it's just the attachment to absolute oppositional thinking that demands that we
negate one in us for the other. It is this splitting of the world into two that has allowed the
attachment to the male as dominant, and which has led to the creation of a predatory society in
which denial of self, especially in connection with the emotions people judge to be bad, and denial of
the feminine(trust, love, respect, caring) in both men and women have led to the kind of destructive
strategies and behaviours that we see in 'Buffy.' It is the denial of self which creates the kind of rage
that is the point of contact between men and women in such a society. It is this rage also that creates
the tendency towards destablization of the society through violence and provides the reason for the
continued need for repressive measures by a governing power, ie it is a self perpetuating system
where repression causes the very tendency to chaos that the system is trying to prevent from
happening.
There seems to be this year, as the symbolism of gaining adulthood would demand(in a patriarchal
society you simply get told, like a child, what your identity is), the re-invention of the identities of
the characters as the society we live in grows to a sort of maturity of vision. Perhaps Rowan's(? sorry
if I'm wrong) idea that both Spike and Buffy have to let go of the influence of Angel and Dru,
represents, in the terms that I usually assign to my postings, the undoing of the inter generational
scarring by the sexual predator(Angelus) and the results of that sexual predator, the emasculator,
Dru, that has occurred as Buffy's generation must deal with the lingering and formative influence of
the society from which we have been emerging these past thirty years.
While women have taken the brunt of the abuse at the hands of the male culture, men have suffered
also. This is not about male bashing, nor is it about devaluing the masculine. Girl Power isn't a
matter of women striking back, that's simply doing what the men have been taught to do and thus
playing into the emasculator role: the phallic symbol in Buffy's hands may be meant to symbolize
this power struggle between men and women, with the slayer being an emasculating and
deconstructing figure rolled into one: the slayer is part of the fight between sexual predator and
female, but also the deconstruction of that structure by having Buffy the human being left after the
staking: the human person, who has just used her so-called masculine side in the fight, but who also
symbolizes the value of the feminine by being a female character.
It is rather empowering the feminine in both men and women.(I've nothing at all against women and
men learning martial arts to strike back in a literal sense when needed, and both sexes have to one
degree or other a natural aggression, but that's only allowing the women to open to their masculine
side. It still leaves the other aspect of humanity abandoned and devalued, the feminine aspect.)
Or, I may just simply be projecting my own focus on this subject.
There's an episode of the old series 'Kung Fu' that I used in an E mail analysis of the 'Angel' ep 'Billy'
that might help here:
There is an episode of 'Kung Fu', starring David Carradine as a pseudo buddhist monk of the Shaolin
order who has come to America to escape the mercenary assassins of the Emperor of China after
having killed the Emperor's nephew in a fit of rage after the latter had killed without just cause his
beloved master Po, where Kwai Chang Caine, the monk, spies a man who resembles someone he had
met in China. As it happens the man turns out to be the son of the guy who once saved Caine's
father, and Caine feels that a debt is owed to the man. The man does not accept that such a debt is
owed, but Caine persists and will not leave.
Now, it so happens that the village where the man lives is being terrorized by a band of bandits who
have fought as soldiers in a war, but who feel they now have no place in society. They believe that
their self worth is tied up in soldiering, and that to farm would be degrading because farmers, to
them, are all sheep, frightened sheep who cannot face the life and death struggles of battle. Because
of their denigrating attitude towards the villagers, they are exacting tribute/protection money from
them, but the crop has failed and the day of payment is drawing close.
The scene is set up to show three types of entrapment or helplessness: the feeling of helplessness as
the bandits cannot extricate themselves from their belief that farming is below them and so feel they
have no worth left in society(as there's no war); the feeling of helplessness on the part of the villagers
as they find themselves terrorized by the bandits, knowing that the crop has failed and they can't
pay their tribute; and the helplessness of Caine as he is trapped by the debt he owes(it is not a
burden to him at all.) He's not really helpless in the sense of feeling that way, but he cannot leave
until his debt is paid.
Now, the Shaolin order of monks practises Kung Fu for self defence and meditation, and once it is
discovered that Caine has martial arts skills, the man to whom he owes the debt demands that he
teach him to kill. His intention is to challenge the leader of the bandits to a fight, but clearly his
demand is also motivated by anger. At first Caine refuses. But, then he aquiesces as the man makes
it clear that Caine is endebted to him. Caine teaches the man how to defend himself, not kill.
Unfortunately before the day of the duel, one of the younger members of the village, unable to control
his anger, sets off to kill the bandit chief, and is killed himself while trying. The anger on the part of
the man Caine is now training intensifies.
When the time comes for the tribute to be paid, the bandit leader is challenged to a duel, and
surprised by the courage of the villager, accepts. The terms of the duel are that if the villager wins,
the bandits will leave in peace. The fight is hand-to- hand with knives, but it's not important. At
some point, the anger and passion coupled with the control and skill that Caine has taught him win
over the efforts of the bandit chief, and the villager gets the upper hand. At this point the anger and
rage at being made to feel helpless takes him over, and he raises his knife above his head with the
intention of killing the bandit chief who is on the ground. At that point Caine intervenes, and asks
him whether now the sheep would become the wolf; where will the killing end, with him(another
bandit) or with me?
Reluctantly, the man puts down the knife, and the bandits live up to their end of the bargain. In fact,
the courage of the duel has given the bandit leader pause to open up to the idea of farming for when
Caine suggests that it is an honourable way of living done by men, the bandit leader says he will
consider it. In this way, all three instances of helplessness are done away with. Caine walks out of
the village, his debt having been paid.
While violence was still needed in this instance to effect change, it was the cessation of violence that
made sure that that change had a lasting effect. It was not the exchange of one power structure for
another, but the deconstruction of that power structure itself for something much more valuable: self
worth. As in 'Buffy' these characters had gotten themselves into a frozen state from which they could
not extricate themselves, and were using power as a means of not dealing with their concerns.
(As an aside, no I wasn't arguing in my 'Billy' analysis that men have no responsibility for the
violence they commit because they are helpless in the face of a culturally infected(a la Billy)
misogyny. I was arguing that indeed, the ideas we have in our brains, even if we've been taught
them at an early age, we have to, at some point in our lives, if we are to be adults, take responsibility
for, even if we are not responsible for those ideas being there in the first place, even as the
characters in 'Billy' were not responsible for their having been infected. In this way, not only women
are hurt by this culture of hatred, but men are too as they either have to give into it or assume
responsibility for what their beliefs are, and take on the guilt for their actions. It is the difference
between men per se hard wired to be misogynist as Lilah incorrectly assumes, and Fred's
explanation that it is a cultural phenomenon, ie something done to the men, and something that they
can rid themselves of. In season arcs of both series which seem to be dealing with growing up, at
some point men have to look at their beliefs and take responsibility for them, or they just will, like
children, make the excuse that society did this to them and they aren't responsible. None of us is
responsible for anything: we didn't ask to be born or pick our bodies, our minds, our parents. But, if
we don't take responsibility for ourselves, then we aren't really persons. We are just then human
animals. And I think, on the contrary, 'Buffy' is about what it means to be a human being.)
Hope this helps the discussion.
Age.
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[> Re: So is BTVS now more popular with a female audience? -- Edward, 19:29:40 12/05/01
Wed
I don't know what the gender makeup of the show is now, but one thing I have always found
interesting is if you look at first season episodes Buffy wore clothing and probably underclothing that
accentuated her breasts.
That was probably because they expected the show to be popular amongst teen boys. Since then, I
don't remember when it changed, but it did, they have de-emphasized her looks, not making her
unattractive but going away from the early years emphasis on looks.
That would imply that they found the audience wasn't coming just to look at Buffy in a Baywatch
kind of way, and that it wasn't necessary.
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[> Me no teenage girl! Rargh! Grifter smash puny statistics! -- grifter, 05:16:07 12/06/01 Thu
sorry, being silly again
Thoughts on Afterlife -- Cactus Watcher, 06:58:41 12/05/01 Wed
Of course, we all saw it the first time, but the way Spike treats Buffy in Afterlife is very interesting
considering what happened in Crashed and Wrecked.
In Afterlife Dawn treats Buffy as if she'd never left, and at least in the beginning Buffy nearly
ignores her. The rest of the Scoobies alternate between timidly keeping their distance from Buffy and
giving her great big hugs. The hugs, even those from Dawn seem too much for Buffy as if she doesn't
know these people anymore.
With Spike it's different. When Dawn found Buffy she seemed on the verge of killing herself. So
Dawn had to be loud and forceful to bring her sister 'back to life.' She didn't get a moment of tender
joy, just immense relief when Buffy came back from the brink. But, Spike got that moment of tender
surprise, when it was impossible to hide from Buffy exactly how he felt about her. Instead of
grabbing her in his arms like everyone else, he gingerly took her hands to tend the injuries she
gotten clawing out of her grave (I'd forgotten that being buried alive had been one of her great fears
in the episode Nightmares). Moments earlier when Dawn had wanted to look at these wounds, Buffy
had jerked her hand away. With Spike's gentle touch she let him. While Spike didn't have the time
to treat those wounds, it does seem that was the moment Buffy's mind began to accept what had
happened and began to heal.
Buffy didn't see Spike weeping the front yard later. He seemed to be weeping for joy that Buffy was
back, that the people he'd worked so closely all summer hadn't told him they were going to bring
Buffy back, and that what they had done had been so dangerous that they might have been forced to
destroy what they brought back. It was perhaps the first and only time, that just maybe, Spike
showed emotion for the rest of the gang, that he was concerned about all of them not just
Dawn.
Time has passed. Now Spike has grabbed Buffy in his arms, and Buffy has grabbed back. Buffy still
doesn't seem like she can relate fully to that embrace. Spike is back to his blustery self, but inside
he's still that crazy vampire who gently held the slayer's hand.
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[> Re: Thoughts on Afterlife -- Kimberly, 07:13:04 12/05/01 Wed
The look on his face when he realizes that it's Buffy and not the 'bot is perhaps more awed than
when Buffy (can't think of any way to say it delicately) with him in Smashed. Total awe, wonder and
love, and I can't help but think that THAT was the real Spike. He certainly was more in tune with
what Buffy needed right then than the Scoobies; probably because he, too, had been there. Was he
wishing someone had been gentle with him at that point in his existence?
Sorry for the randomness of the thoughts; just wanted to get them down.
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[> [> Re: Thoughts on Afterlife -- spoiler spec -- B, 09:02:08 12/05/01 Wed
Another thing I noticed. When the gang is in the library researching the demon that had possessed
Anya the night before, Buffy suddenly states, "I miss Giles." One beat later, she gets up
to leave, and as we know, she goes to see Spike. Could this be foreshadowing Spike taking Giles'
place as counselor/Watcher?
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[> [> [> I wondered the same thing -- Jen C., 15:37:36 12/05/01 Wed
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[> More Thoughts on "Afterlife" -- RH, 09:01:48 12/05/01 Wed
After re-watching "Afterlife" last night, something else struck me as strange. The demon
hitch-hiker that the SG creates possesses Anya, Dawn and Xander - noticeably it does not possess
Willow and Tara, although it appears to them and rebukes Willow. The demon also
"possesses" Buffy - only it doesn't really because it mysteriously disappears and when
Willow and Tara check, the real Buffy is sound asleep in bed. Willow states later that the demon is
"out of synch" with this dimension and was using their bodies, but did it actually use
Buffy's body? And if not, how could it create a clone of her? How could it have known the things
Willow did to resurrect Buffy, (the references to the killing of the Fawn?) How come it only attacked
the SG and not other people, (ie. someone purchasing something in the Magic Box)? How did it know
who all was associated with Buffy, (had it been watching her from it's own dimension before she
died? Did it "steal" her thoughts and memories?), and yet it didn't know how to effect it's
own "re-embodiment" (until Willow mentioned that it had to kill Buffy)? Could the
demon have been PART of Buffy somehow - a part of her subconscious?
And if the demon were somehow a result of the resurrection spell, how come Dawn was possessed?
(Sure, she carries Buffy's blood, but she wasn't part of the ritual.)
I'm just wondering what all this may have to do with the fact that Buffy's humanity has recently
been called into question, (because of Spike's chip reaction)?
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[> Re: Thoughts on Afterlife -- Deeva, 09:31:20 12/05/01 Wed
Watching Afterlife after having seen Smashed & Wrecked made me wonder whether Buffy even
remembered those first few hours of her return. Has she forgotten how protective Dawn &
Spike were? Or maybe it was just too traumatic and she has blocked outmost of that day. I can't
speak from Buffy's POV (haven't died & come back) but I would remember if any guy treated
me like that.
Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly, 07:07:47 12/05/01 Wed
I was thinking about the different reasons Giles left and came up with a barrelful. Most have been
discussed, but I haven't seen them all mentioned, so I'll throw them all out for discussion.
The obvious two are of course: to make Buffy take on her adult responsibilities (his stated reason)
and because ASH wanted more time at home (the real-life reason). I see three others. One, he's
overwhelmed at the concept of actually having to parent two young women; as a bachelor, he has no
experience. Two, he's homesick (never stated, but it's definitely implied). Three, could it be that he
resents Buffy forcing him to kill Ben? He obviously felt it was morally wrong (something a Hero
couldn't do, but a Ripper could), and yet he still felt forced to do it to protect the world. Right call in
my book, but something I would suspect he feels guilty about. That would leave him resenting Buffy
for putting him in that position in the first place.
Comments, discussion?
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[> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 07:29:07 12/05/01 Wed
I'd debate that your first two are the only reasons for his departure. First off, that man's been like a
father to all of them for years. Buffy's the only one who's had active parenting...we saw Willow's
mom once(Gingerbread) and though we hear about Xander's parents we never see them...giving the
indication that the parenting isn't all that good. I can't imagine all of a sudden he gets
overwhelmed...especially where there's no real addition, Buffy was there 6 months prior. I might be
inclined to the homesick part...but he's changed so much over the years...and besides, if he were
really homesick he would have packed his bags the first time the watcher's council told him to take a
hike. See, I've rewatched The Gift about sixty times...I never saw Giles not liking to kill Ben. He
knew to kill Ben in essence killed Glory...besides, he made a sacrifice in acting like the Ripper, but
Buffy's sacrifice far outweighed his so I don't think he ever held it against her.
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[> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) (longish) -- Kimberly, 08:16:49
12/05/01 Wed
OK, let me see if I can explain myself so it makes sense or so we can continue to debate on through
the day. Note: I'm addressing the motives from easiest to hardest, not in the same order as my
original post.
Easiest first: Homesickness would not be the primary reason Giles left, merely one more motive into
the mix. He does talk about getting together with friends when he gets back to England; as far as I
can see, he has no friends his own age in Sunnydale, with the exception of Joyce.
Second: The parenting thang. Yes, he has been acting in a parenting role, but, until this season, he
did not actually have to step up to the plate and actually BE a parent. Neither Willow's nor Xander's
parents are involved or effective, but they are there, they exist. Up until last season, Joyce has been
there to parent Buffy and Dawn. Giles has been able to be mentor, advisor, adult friend and father
figure, without having to do the hardest part of parenting, discipline (which is where we see him
start to draw away). He has been able to be the "rakish uncle", not the
"father". When Joyce died, Buffy originally tried to push off disciplining Dawn to Giles,
which he (properly IMHO) refused. After Buffy died, Willow and Tara took over the Dawn-parenting,
with help from Spike. When Buffy came back, Willow and Tara (again properly) deferred to Buffy,
who pushed Giles into the position of disciplinarian, a role for which he has no preparation nor moral
authority.
Now, out comes the Mommy-part of me. Advice, comfort, love, guidance: all these things are
comparatively easy to give if you're a half-way mature adult. Children (which is how Giles views the
Scoobies one and all) elicit these things. Giles clearly loves the whole gang and is able to give them
what they need. Except for discipline, which is an entirely different kettle of fish and much more
difficult to do. Discipline is very tough, especially if you're being careful to be nonabusive and
teaching at the same time. You have to come up with something appropriate to the offense and
something that will actually work. Now, I'm OK with children up to grade school age, because that's
what I've been doing the last six years. I have no idea what the appropriate punishment for a 15-
year-old lying about her whereabouts, especially one with the implicit power of Dawn, because I
haven't started dealing with teen issues yet (and, thank you, I'm more than willing to wait for them).
Giles has less of a clue because he's never done any disciplining. He's overwhelmed with a
responsibility he wasn't expecting and isn't prepared for.
(Sorry for the rant: trying to explain my point hit one of my parenting buttons. Can't you tell? :-
)
Finally, I agree that Giles does not CONSCIOUSLY hold what he had to do against Buffy. He truly
believes that Buffy acted according to her own nature, and that he did what had to be done to
"clean up after her". But, he also clearly believes, in the speech he gave Ben while he was
suffocating him, that killing Ben was morally wrong, and unheroic. That paves the way to an
unconscious resentment of Buffy, the hero who forced him to do the "cleaning up". When
faced with having to, again, do Buffy's "dirty work" with Dawn, he rebelled, and went
running to England. I think he would deny these motives, I think he believes that he went only for
his stated reason of forcing Buffy to take on her responsibilities, but I think his unconscious motives
are there nonetheless.
Thanks for forcing me to clarify my thoughts; I hope it's not too repetitive.
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[> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) (longish) -- maddog, 08:40:22
12/05/01 Wed
While I might be able to give you homesick as being a side reason I still say it's contrived simply
because his original idea of leaving was after Buffy died...it's like he felt he had no place left...no
need for a watcher without a slayer.
I don't see how you can say that any parent on that show exists with the exception of Joyce(and now
we don't even have her). If they really existed in their kids lives then they'd be part of more
storylines(and don't think the simple omission of what could be key characters isn't a deliberate ploy
on Joss's part to prove a point).
Your other points however seem to have merit...he does seem more like an uncle, giving support but
not doling out discipline. However do you really think that he left because he didn't want to handle
the punishments? and as I read that last statement it makes me think that maybe we're arguing the
same point...could Gile's wish to have Buffy take more responsibility be the same as him not wanting
to discipline Dawn? they could be the same reason.
I wasn't really talking about whether it was conscious or not. I personally find no fault in what he
did...Ben becomes Glory...Glory can't be stopped...so the only way to get rid of Glory is to get rid of
Ben...with VERY little attachment to him I never really saw that as a problem and was actually
quite glad that he did what he did. And who says Giles had to be the one to do it...why not
Xander...or Willow...truth is Giles took it upon himself to handle that situation...maybe he thought
he was the only one willing to, but the fact still remains Buffy never asked him to do it, never
insinuated that he handle it, he did it out of his own accord...I can't see even subconsciously Giles
being upset at Buffy for an action he decided he had to do. And if that truly is the case(as you're
attempting to say) then I'd say Giles needs to rethink that...cause it was his decision.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) (longish) -- Cactus
Watcher, 08:49:20 12/05/01 Wed
Have to agree with maddog. Since Giles would have learned, after the fact, that Ben had betrayed
Dawn, there is very little chance he would feel much anguish over having killed him. Even if for
some reason he did, he would be much more likely to blame fate than Buffy. Most men I know just
don't operate that way.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly, 08:54:30
12/05/01 Wed
I think we're mostly in agreement here.
I'm not actually saying that Willow's and Xander's parents are present, but that Giles can behave as
if they are. He doesn't have to discipline them; he can just be there for them.
As far as Ben, I agree he had to die. I'm basing my hypothesis of Giles resenting having to kill him
on this: He told Ben that it wasn't something a hero could do (he believes it was morally imperfect, if
practically necessary). Over the summer, there was some discussion about how Giles would handle
his guilt over that action (which BTW I happen to think was the only thing to do). It occurred to me
that, without realizing it, Giles feels that Buffy is forcing him to do her dirty work: killing Ben,
disciplining Dawn. He can see and intellectually justify that he has to insist that Buffy be the one to
discipline Dawn; he's right even if he could have handled the whole situation better. At the same
time, an action he feels guilty about could be forcing him to a more extreme action than is strictly
justified. It is HIS problem, but I don't think he's even aware that he is equating the two actions.
(Just because he decided he had to do it, doesn't mean he can't subconsciously resent Buffy for
making him do it. The subconscious, or maybe I mean the unconscious, isn't logical. That's why so
many things we as humans do are so damn puzzling.)
And, I always wish after several rounds of reposting, that I could EDIT the initial post to make it
better. Thank you for forcing me to clean out the crud in my thinking.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 09:13:00
12/05/01 Wed
See I'm only around for short times when I post so I like this two cause it's almost like a
conversation. I wasn't around for the guilt conversations this summer, but if I were then I would
have said that I don't think Giles felt guilt...only duty. I'm still not clear on your reasoning for why
Gile's subconscious would blame Buffy....for instance, how does he know that she wouldn't kill Ben?
He's guessing, but he can't be sure. In fact, I'm pretty sure she would have had she not been trying to
rescue Dawn...I mean, he lied to her from day 1, he put all of them in danger by showing up...if I
were her I would have done him in. I still say he took it upon himself with an assumption that may
not even be true. If he does blame Buffy then he's got some issues to work out.
By taking your definition of how we do things unconsciously then we'd be speculating all day. Hell,
maybe Spike doesn't feel bad UNCONSCIOUSLY for not being able to help Dawn because he knew
he did his best...he doesn't act that way, would never say that, but you never know... :) Get my
point(and if you think human actions are puzzling, think about a nuetered vampire in love with a
slayer). :)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly,
10:16:14 12/05/01 Wed
I don't say that sub/unconscious motives are completely mysterious, merely that we typically ignore
them. It'll be interesting to see how ME handles it if/when Giles comes back. No matter what his
reasons, I expect Buffy's going to be icy to him when that happens.
The motivations of a neutered vampire in love with a slayer. Twisted, confusing, but, in their own
way beautiful. And loads of fun to watch and speculate on.
I agree with the conversation thing. It's enjoyable seeing your image of a person and having a
conversation about a topic of mutual obsession. (Oh, you're only around for short times; maybe you're
not obsessed. ) It also helps figure out what I mean to me; compared to some of the posters here, I
feel muddle-brained.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Rufus,
10:21:59 12/05/01 Wed
(Oh, you're only around for short times; maybe you're not obsessed. )
Short times......for now it is.....;)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) --
maddog, 08:09:59 12/06/01 Thu
Trust me, my short visits aren't of my own doing...I have work and school to fit in around it. :)
I completely agree that Buffy's gonna be cold...just maybe not at first, cause I can see Willow hitting
bottom as when he decides to come back...so once everything's settled she'll remember that she
thinks he abandoned her and she'll get cold.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) --
Kimberly, 08:21:25 12/06/01 Thu
I think he's going to feel ice the first time he tells her what to do. Even if he phrases it as a
suggestion, she's going to fling his leaving in his face and freeze him out. Or she's going to explode
and he could find himself in real trouble.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and
Six) -- maddog, 08:31:08 12/06/01 Thu
If I were Giles I'd stay away from direct orders all together. Yeah, I think you've hit it on the
head..."you're not my watcher anymore, remember"...I can even hear the tone. And that'll
end up snowballing.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five
and Six) -- Kimberly, 08:33:23 12/06/01 Thu
Fun to watch; hell to live through. I can hear the tone and see his complete bewilderment. He's
frequently puzzled by the way people around him react and can also take a while to get a clue.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season
Five and Six) -- maddog, 08:46:56 12/06/01 Thu
Well, he's a Brit, and the culture's just not the same over there...add that to the fact that he's got 20
years on them and I'm sure he does get confused.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for
Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly, 08:51:32 12/06/01 Thu
Doesn't help, but I'm not sure he entirely understands people more like him. Although we don't know
about his interpersonal interactions in England, he may be more adept there. Think about times like
his initial interactions with Jenny Calendar.
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[> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Shiver, 08:00:12 12/05/01 Wed
They never sold me on the reason for Giles leaving being that Buffy needed to be more independent.
Since when - in the few weeks since she came back from the dead? Last season, Buffy was nothing
but independent - doing everything she could to protect Dawn from Glory. This is the same Buffy
that told Giles in no uncertain terms that she would kill him if he tried to kill Dawn. The same Giles
who, for most of S4 and early S5, was relegated to the sidelines and barely present through most of
the episodes. Suddenly, we are to believe that Giles thinks Buffy - who has been through the trauma
of death and resurrection so soon after losing her mother and Riley too - needs to be on her own,
without his influence, that's he's around TOO MUCH? Rubbish. If anything, Buffy needed Giles to be
around even more than ever, at least in the background, helping her readjust to being alive again.
Buffy reveals she was in Heaven and is horribly depressed, and Giles takes that as his cue to
abandon her? I never bought the premise, not for one second, it was wweak and contrived and I still
think of the only reason that Giles left the show - the only VALID reason - being that the actor, ASH
wanted out.
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[> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 08:05:18 12/05/01
Wed
Does anybody actually believe this storyline besides me? ok, I know Buffy protected Dawn last
season, but there's more to parenting than protection...there's also discipline. And Giles isn't Dawn's
father...Buffy's the only one that should truly be admonishing her for anything and she's not...so I
don't see this as contrived as it seems everyone else does.
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[> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly, 08:21:32 12/05/01
Wed
See my post to you above. Nobody is disciplining Dawn right now; that's why she's acting out. She's
hoping someone will love her enough to stop her. (Again, unconscious motivation. No kid will ever
admit they want discipline--at least, not to the disciplinarian.)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 08:42:09
12/05/01 Wed
that I can agree with...and it became more obvious when she started what would have been her solo
in her bedroom in OMWF, had the demon henchmen not nabbed her...makes me wonder if Joss
wrote a whole song there or if the wrote the first few words to confirm that theory for the rest of
us.
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[> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Shiver, 10:10:10 12/05/01
Wed
I believe that part of the storyline - that Buffy needs to be there for Dawn. What I don't believe is
that the only way to bring that about is for Giles to leave. What I don't believe is that it was the
presence of Giles holding her back. It wasn't holding her back last season when she was taking care
of Dawn after Joyce died.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 08:13:02
12/06/01 Thu
I think it's more of a potential problem that Giles was seeing and he's trying to nip it early as to
avoid Buffy always differing to him. Besides, Buffy had to protect Dawn from supernatural stuff last
year...this is more the day to day problems that Giles is talking about. And while leaving may not
have been the right answer it's the only one he could think of that would literaly force Buffy to
handle it.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly,
08:24:15 12/06/01 Thu
Interestingly, he was able to handle it better last year. When Buffy found out Dawn was cutting
school, she tried to get Giles to handle it and he refused. She did handle it, and did a decent
job.
Then again, she wasn't dealing with Heaven withdrawal at the time.
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[> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Rattletrap, 09:08:17 12/05/01 Wed
I basically agree with your first two points. Giles has, in some ways always been a father figure, but
you rightly point out that he has never really had the day-to-day duties of disciplinarian and
provider. The "rakish uncle" analogy may be closer. His homesickness I also find
believable because it would have been aggravated by his recent, maybe week-long, return to England
and meetings with old friends. Returning to Sunnydale, he finds everything different and no real
place left for him. Buffy's back, but not completely, Anya's got the magic shop covered, Xander and
Willow are more independent than ever, Giles and Dawn have never been particularly close and
there isn't much room in her life for him. The whole thing is a bit like something out of Thomas
Wolfe.
That said, I don't buy the 3rd point. Giles has never been one to morally second-guess what he has to
do. He tends to bet he sort of person who figures out what needs to happen and does it, even if he
gets dirty in the process. We've seen no evidence that the killing of Ben had any long-term emotional
effect.
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[> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 09:16:09 12/05/01
Wed
I'm pretty sure Giles was only back in England for like a day or two. But still, very good point about
his lack of ties and the growing non need for him to be around. Seems to be more of reason to leave
than being plain homesick(though like I've stated, it may somehow be a small reason for his
departure).
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[> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly, 10:19:33 12/05/01
Wed
Yeah, we've never seen him with friends his own age in Sunnydale. And, because of the nature of the
relationships he has with the Scoobies, I'd hesitate to call them "friends"; friendship is
between equals and Giles is very much the "adult" to their "children/youth".
When he has nothing else to do, it must have become very lonely. (An even better motive than
homesickness. Or maybe contributory.)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- JM, 14:52:58 12/05/01
Wed
I can definitely buy homesickness. He didn't choose to leave leave England in the first place, work
made him do it. And this is not the first time he's tried to return. See BvD.
I also agree that he has a lack of interest in actively parenting the Scoobs and Dawn. And I think
your disciplinarian points were quite insightful. (Though he has had to occassionally do it for Buffy,
and was quite good at. However, in was in the role of mentor, semi-boss, and not parent. Personal
issues he has mostly stayed out of.)
I posted awhile back on buying Giles' belief in his reasons. He strongly values strength and self-
discipline. Especially considering the damage he did as a youth when he failed to exercise them. I
think that it might be here where his feelings about executing Ben come into play. I am sure he
suffers anguish and pain at the memory of what he did, though probably not guilt. He is not one to
take killing lightly, even though it was necessary. I don't think that he resents for having to do it for
Buffy. Personally I think he would far darker things in her service. I suspect, though, that he would
include as one of the instances that he enabled her to avoid the hard decision. I think he's right that
Buffy would never kill a human that was not directly, immediately threatening her. He did, and she
was spared the hard choice and dark act or consequences of choosing not to. I don't think that Giles
thinks she should have to make these decisions, but he does condemn himself for weakening enough
to allow her avoid even one of them. His leaving is to discipline himself as much for his indulgence as
her for her dependency. It may be skewed to the rest of us, but seems consistent to the
character.
There are probably also other unspoken, unrealized reasons. He probably never wanted to be a
Watcher. It was his destiny, and possibly an amends for his Ripper years. He has served his time,
and in someways wants to get away from the demands and suffering of the job, finally start his life.
He sounded envious that Anya and Xander had a future before them. Remember his dream in
Restless.
Someone on the MBTV board posted the intringuing notion that part of it may be that he cannot face
waiting for Buffy to die again. She's still the Slayer, she stil has an expiriation date. Her death was
probably the most agonizing experience for him. I suspect a dark part of him, like Buffy in WotW,
wishes she were dead now. No more fear, just dealing with the grief. "Wish I could lay your
arms down, and let you rest at last."
PS Thanks for starting this discussion. One of my absolute favorite characters. So deep, intriguing,
well-acted. Plus the man is just poured sex. Done now.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Kimberly,
18:31:04 12/05/01 Wed
Good points. Maybe instead of homesickness, I should amend to "life of his own". He
doesn't ever seem to have had one--not a healthy one at least. And, as my husband is pointing out,
any time he tries for one in Sunnydale, the Scoobies rag on him about how he's too old, "that's
sick", and other supportive comments of that ilk.
You may be right about the Ben thing; I'm going to have to meditate on it. Probably tomorrow
morning in the car; that's where I have most of my posting ideas. (Or at night in the car. I spend too
much time in the car.)
And I'm glad someone other than me thinks Giles is the sexy one on the show. I keep hearing about
Spike, who's not bad, but it's Giles I drool over.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- Rufus,
23:51:08 12/05/01 Wed
Giles, he's even my age so I can have naughty thoughts about him. So much for you getting an Action
Spike figure....I should amend that to the Action Giles figure..which I fancy myself. There is always
the Pangs Spike Figure complete with arrows......bear sold seperately....if I say this enough maybe
someone will make it.
I like Giles, Xander, and Riley(I know he went to vamp hookers). But the situation with Spike is very
fun to post about because of all the nifty ethical questions.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) --
Kimberly, 05:59:10 12/06/01 Thu
Oh, I've been enjoying the development of the character of Spike greatly. Moral complexity and
change have always attracted me; the best characters are those who have the farthest to go to
achieve some form of "goodness". I just don't find him as sexy as many posters on this
board do. (OTOH, I wasn't upset over seeing lots of him in Wrecked; nice body.)
Pangs was one of Spike's funniest moments, and Spike is great when he's being funny, even if
unintentionally. So, yes, the Pangs Spike action figure, arrows, bear and all. And the Giles Action
Figure (with removable glasses to clean). Mmmm, Giles. (I'm with you Rufus; I'm close enough in age
to have very naughty thoughts about him.)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Giles' Leaving (spoilers for Season Five and Six) -- maddog, 08:17:38
12/06/01 Thu
Does he even HAVE friends in Sunnydale?
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[> What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- bookworm, 18:23:56 12/05/01 Wed
In the Season 4 finale, didn't Giles dream of Olivia pushing a baby carriage? I saw that as
foreshadowing. Maybe Giles just wants a life. He gave up his dreams, his career, his chance at a
family of his own to become a Watcher. Now Buffy is grown and can manage on her own. Giles is in
his mid-forties and may feel that it's now or never if he wants to remake himself, fall in life, have a
child, go back to the British Museum or whatever he was doing before he was a Watcher. He still
loves Buffy and will probably be available to her by Internet or phone call when she needs him, but
he can't wait around in Sunnydale for her to come calling. He may also not want to see her die again.
The grief was probably unbearable enough the first time. Maybe he's withdrawing emotionally to
protect himself. He's being a little selfish, but it's a very human thing to do.
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[> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- Kimberly, 18:35:39 12/05/01
Wed
I thought in Hush, Olivia kind of implied that she couldn't handle the supernatural stuff. Even if
GIles is no longer a Watcher, he's unlikely to be able to stay away from the supernatural altogether.
(Hubby: Plus it would make a very boring BBC show.)
About not wanting to see Buffy die again, yes I can see that. He was devastated by her death, both
times, and hadn't seemed to completely assimilate her resurrection. And withdrawing to avoid the
pain again, which will almost certainly happen, is a very human and understandable thing to do.
(OK, I'm now up to five reasons on the show.)
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[> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- maddog, 08:41:45 12/06/01
Thu
Speaking of the BBC show, does anyone know if he'll play Rupert Giles on it? Cause then it could be
like an extension of Buffy....you'd have to watch both shows to know the whole story. :)
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[> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- Kimberly, 08:57:43
12/06/01 Thu
I suspect so, since the title (it may be a "working title") is Ripper. And that says to me,
Rupert Giles.
I hope so. I also hope we get to see it here in the US.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- maddog, 09:06:09
12/06/01 Thu
Yeah, maybe on PBS. :)
I feel like you're following me down the line of posts...one maddog...one Kimberly. :)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- Kimberly,
10:36:53 12/06/01 Thu
We do seem to be the two most interested right here. I think we both check the board at the same
time, so that exacerbates it. (Have to keep it going. ;-))
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? --
MaryAnn, 11:59:30 12/06/01 Thu
Yes, Tony Head will be Rupert Giles, but according to an interview with Marti Noxon on the BBC's
BUFFY site, the rest of the cast of RIPPER will be new, so probably no Olivia. Although there is the
chance of some cross-over guest stars. Joss asked JM, for one, if he would be interested - he said yes.
I'm hoping for Ethan Rayne too!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? --
Halcyon, 04:15:11 12/07/01 Fri
Was nt there a rumour going round that Alexis Denisoff would be guest starring?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England?
-- MaryAnn, 10:53:09 12/07/01 Fri
Yes, and I think Alexis Denisof would be a great choice for a guest appearance. But the spoiler plot
associated with this rumour looked very weak to me. I'm pretty suspicious about it, unless we get
firmer confirmation.
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[> [> Re: What if Olivia is waiting for him in England? -- JM, 05:32:30 12/06/01 Thu
I always secretly suspected that's what he was doing in BvD. He wasn't reinstated as a Watcher yet,
so he would be leaving the supernatural behind. But then he chose Buffy. So I bet she's not still
waiting. (Of course this is entirely spec. But I reserve the right. I always liked Olivia.)
Did Willow bring Buffy back? -- Yellowork, 07:46:22 12/05/01 Wed
Hi, interesting to see stuff posters had to say about the notion of whether Buffy is in this world for
any other reason *besides* the fact that Willow worked powerful magick. It is interesting people see
it that if Osiris or some other external force prompted the passage of Buffy's spirit back to the world,
and the revivification of her body, it follows that Willow is somehow less culpable for the
consequences of her actions? Why?!
Surely Willow can do herself some damnfool thing *and* have it assist the plans of larger forces? Did
you for example see the monster that turned up in the most recent new US screening? That thing
*was* external, but Willow's magical "trip" gave it the means to enter the physical
world.
I am of the impression that it is very difficult to open the "door" to any other world,
which is why Sunnydale is not *entirely* inundated with demonkind. So, if Willow *is* responsible
for summoning Buffy's spirit and preparing her body to rejoin its soul, wouldn't it still require the
acquiescence of the underworld gatekeeper / guardian / ruler in order to have Buffy's spirit accept
the call?
Of course, there is a possibility that the spirit heard the call and *did not* want to accept it, as being
explored currently in the series (from 'Afterlife' onwards). Perhaps it is possible to see a situation
wherein *something* seized an occasion to have Buffy's soul returned to the physical world and
essentially took the opportunity to expel her. Willow's guilt is in no way relieved by any of this
though; without her interference, this opening would not have presented itself to ?.
This argument, I hasten to add, leaves hanging the question of whether what we are looking at is
mad, bad or merely dangerous to know (i.e. good). And indeed, it is possible we are just looking at the
issue through the wrong end of the telescope: perhaps the Underworld is indifferent to our world and
they just wanted rid of *her*. Do you think she kept on doing her hair like that in Hell?
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[> Re: Did Willow bring Buffy back?(Spilers) -- maddog, 08:10:23 12/05/01 Wed
If the external power brought Buffy back then why did she come mere minutes after Willow finished
her spell? And I do think Willow bringing back Buffy was supposed to be the catalyst for what's
going on now with Willow and the magic OD.
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[> [> Re: Did Willow bring Buffy back?(Spilers) -- darrenK, 09:27:55 12/05/01 Wed
I don't think Yellowork was suggesting that Willow played NO role in Buffy's return.
I think Yellowork is suggesting that other forces were at work through Willow.
Buffy is a primary champion of good. Willow as one of her powerful allies and the conduit by which
another champion, Angel, had his soul restored is a prime candidate for pawnhood in the great game
of gods. dK
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[> [> [> Re: Did Willow bring Buffy back?(Spilers) -- maddog, 09:34:17 12/05/01 Wed
Sorry, didn't get that meaning through the post. Cause that I could definitely see...however it still
w