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The Dialogue Thingy (Season 1) -- MrDave, 17:27:16 12/13/01 Thu

[This is all the posted eps edited (barely) together into a single post --MrDave]

[Season One]

Date Posted: 03:49:11 12/06/01 Thu

Author: Marie

Subject: Episodes 1-3

In reply to:

Marie's message, "A challenge for the writers out there!" on 03:49:11 12/06/01 Thu

Buffy looked around at her friends - her family - and smiled to herself. This was why she'd come back, she thought. They'd had a good night. The local movie theatre was having a Marx Brothers week and they'd all gone together. A normal night, she thought, tucking her arm companionably through Dawn's. Duck Soup and pizza with everything on it. What more could she ask.

"Slayer." The voice came from the side street ahead, and two vampires stepped out in front of them. "Come all the way from Canada to kill you."

Sliding her arm from Dawn's, and pushing her gently towards Willow, Buffy raised a brow. "Canada? I like Canadians. They have... er, chocolate, and, um, cats." As she spoke, she slipped a stake from her sleeve and kicked out. "Let me extend a warm welcome to the Hellmouth!" Spinning on her heel, she struck once, twice, and stepped back to her sister. "So, you were saying?"

Dawn grinned. "We were just wondering how Giles was doing. I was telling the others what he said in his letter."

"Yeah," Xander chipped in. "Giles on a farm? Can't see 'im milking cows, can you? Or getting the harvest in!"

"Well, he'll be back as soon as he's sorted his friend's spooks out." Buffy replied. "In the meantime, Tara, did you get a chance to look over the papers he sent?"

"Yes, Will and I translated some of it this morning. There was a lot we didn't understand, but there was something about The Witch of the Wall-"

"The which of the what? That doesn't make sense," Xander interrupted her.

"Not which, Witch - w-i-t-c-h" Willow said. "Only we don't know which Wall!"

"Uh, can I say, confused much!" Buffy said.

(Next 3 - Teacher's Pet / Never Kill a Boy on the First Date / The Pack. Have fun!)

Date Posted: 11:11:47 12/06/01 Thu

Author: Brian

Subject: Re: Episodes 4-6

In reply to: Marie's message, "Episodes 1-3" on 11:11:47 12/06/01 Thu

Buffy and Xander are having coffee at the only Starbuck's in town.

Xander: How did the PTA meeting go?

Buffy: Well, Dawn is definitely no teacher's pet. Two of her teachers couldn't even remember if she was in their class.

Xander: Sounds like she's carrying on your fine traditions.

Buffy: (Giving him the look) Well, at least she's doing well in art.

Xander: Well, math, science, you'll just have to talk to her about studying harder.

Bufy: I know, but it can't be right away. I just gave the lecture about never kill a boy on the first date.

Xander: But, Buffy, he was a vampire!

Buffy: Yeah, ok, but she borrowed my favorite stake to do it.

Xander: Well, at least, she's not running with the pack of motorcycle jerks that have been tearing up the streets of our fair city.

Buffy: No, that's probably Spike being his typical adolesent self.

Next three: Angel, I robot, you jane, and The puppet show

Date Posted: 11:43:25 12/06/01 Thu

Author: GreatRewards

Subject: Re: Episodes 7-9

In reply to: Brian's message, "Re: Episodes 4-6" on 11:43:25 12/06/01 Thu

Xander: "I'm soooooo bored! Let's go do something, already!"

Buffy: "What'd you have in mind?"

Xander: "I dunno why, but I suddenly have the urge to go fishing.... Hey! Angel food cake..... mmmmfffppphhh!"

Buffy: "Sounds like fun. But it's gonna be different from the last time, when you made me row the boat the whole time."

Xander: "Iph rmmph blth, yophth thammphh!"

Buffy: "what? 'I Robot... You Jane?'"

Xander (finally swallowing): "Huh? No! I said I'll row the boat, but you have to change! You can't fish in that sweater!"

Buffy: "Oh. Ok. Can Dawn come? I have to pick her up after school and it's either fishing or the puppet show at the Boys & Girls Club, and I think Dawnie's a little old for 'Kukla, Fran & Ollie'."

Xander: "Sure, it'll be fun. Go change, and I'll meet you both down at the lake!"

(Next three episodes: "Nightmares", "Out of Mind, Out of Sight", "Prophecy Girl")

Date Posted: 16:52:50 12/06/01 Thu

Author: Marie

Subject: Episodes10-12

In reply to:Marie's message, "OK - 10-12 coming up..." on 16:52:50 12/06/01 Thu

"Omigod!" Dawn squealed in horror and backed away from the wall.

"Wha? Wossermarrer?" The voice came from behind her and she squeaked and covered her head with her arms.

"Dawn? That you?" Spike sat up and stared at her, bleary-eyed. "What the hell are yer doin' 'ere at this time of the bleedin' day? Mus' be soddin' early, 'cos I'm still asleep. Or I've started 'avin nightmares."

Receiving no answer, the vampire stood up, concerned. "Niblet? Come on, now, you can tell me. Had a fight with Buffy, 'ave yer?"

"No. Goway." The answer was muffled, as she kept her head down. When he crouched down beside her and reached out a hand to pull her arms away from her head, she moaned and tried to shuffle back.

"Hey, come on now," Spike said in a sterner tone. "It can't be that bad. 'N Buffy's gonna be worried about you."

That brought Dawn's head up, and she scowled at him at she said "Huh! You're kidding! She won't even notice I'm not there for breakfast. Out of sight, out of mind. That was written for her!" Her eyes widened suddenly and she gasped.

Spike gawped at her. "What? What the hell's the matter with you?"

"My HAIR!" she wailed, "I forgot to brush it and look at it!"

"Bloody hell, Bit, is that all? I knew I should've never got that mirror for you. Bloody women! Here."

As he passed her the brush, and turned away in exasperation, she poked her tongue out at his back, and he said "I saw that. What are you doing here so early, anyway!"

"Tara told me about the Prophecy-"

"Girl, there's always a bloody prophecy! Go to school and don't worry about it."

Dawn saw by the set look on his face that she'd get nothing more from him, so she slipped his brush into her schoolbag, and before he could say any more, came up behind him and gave him a hug.

Perplexed, he turned and watched her leave.

(Next: When She Was Bad / Some Assembly Required / School Hard)
[> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 2) -- MrDave, 17:30:49 12/13/01 Thu

Date Posted: 18:56:24 12/06/01 Thu

Author: Humanitas

Subject: Re: Episodes 13-16

In reply to:Marie's message, "Episodes10-12" on 18:56:24 12/06/01 Thu

Dawn stormed off toward the school. Gah! Even Spike wouldn't pay attention to her, just shuffled her out of the crypt and off to school. Well, she'd just have to find some way to make them pay attention, then...

This ought to do it, she thought as she snuck off campus in the middle of the day. Since nobody noticed when she was trying to be a good little girl and be responsible and stuff, let's see if they'd catch on when she was bad.

She wandered down an alley downtown. Suddenly, a blur of boy and bike came hurtling past her, nearly knocking her down. She started to yell, but the sound got lost in the crash of the bike into a bunch of trashcans. The boy went tumbling over the handlebars, and came to rest against the wall.

Dawn's irritation quickly shifted to concern, and she dashed to the boy's side. "Are you OK?"

He shook he head to clear it, and let out a breath like a horse. "Yeah, I'm fine." She helped him to his feet, and he walked slowly to the pile of rubbish that contained his bike. "Looks like the bike is some assembly required, though."

He ran a hand through his short dirty-blonde hair, and turned to look at her. His eyes were very blue. Dawn suddenly felt very uncomfortable. Her palms were starting to sweat. She stammered, "W-will you be all right? 'Cause I have to be, you know, in school."

"Hard to say." He seemed to be looking all the way into the middle of her. "My head doesn't hurt much, so probably." He squinted at her. "You're - fuzzy. Why is that?" He looked around. "Everything else is fine. Why are you fuzzy?"

(Next: Inca Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy, Halloween)

Date Posted: 20:09:32 12/06/01 Thu

Author: Brian

Subject: Re: Episodes 17-19

In reply to:Humanitas's message, "Re: Episodes 13-16" on 20:09:32 12/06/01 Thu

Later, Dawn sat in class trying to pay attention to the discussion about Inca rituals where they would make a muummy out of a sacrificed young girl. They took her up a mountain, and cut her heart out, and sacrificed her to some Reptile god. "Boy, did that make her angry. Typical male thinking.

At that moment, her friend Emily broke her thought pattern by asking , "Hey, are you going to the Halloween party this weekend?"

Next Eps: 20-22

Date Posted: 00:04:28 12/07/01 Fri

Author: MrDave

Subject: Re: Episodes 20-22

In reply to:Brian's message, "Re: Episodes 17-19" on 00:04:28 12/07/01 Fri

Eps 20-22 "Lie to Me":"The Dark Age":"What's My Line"

Buffy wandered around the schoolyard. It seemed like so long ago when she, too, had been a student. Back before there was slayage and death...

The sound of footsteps streaming out from the school broke her train of thought. There was Dawn, and her little friend wahts-her-name. Dawn must have picked up on Buffy's blank stare, "Buffy, this is Emily. Can I go to the Halloween Party this weekend?"

"You aren't going to lie to me about where you are this time, are you?" Wow. That was a motherly moment, thought Buffy. Dawn looked as shocked as Buffy.

"This isn't the Dark Ages. I have a life, you know," said Dawn, "Besides, if I wanted to go, could you stop me? OW!"

"Say goodby to ...uh.." said Buffy as she snatched Dawn by the arm and started walking toward the lake.

"Emily" mumbled Dawn.

"Whatever. You can't talk to me like that. And especially not in front of your friends," The words all tumbled out of Buffy's mouth. All those things her mom had said. All the time, she was thinking "What's MY line?"

Next Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"

Date Posted: 03:32:53 12/07/01 Fri

Author: Brian

Subject: Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22)

In reply to:MrDave's message, "Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22)" on 03:32:53 12/07/01 Fri

Dawn dragged the young man down the street

"Hey, Buffy, wait up, I want you to meet Ted"

"And who is Ted?" sighed Buffy, already sure she wouldn't like the answer.

"Ted's going to the Halloween party with me," replied Dawn.

Buffy thought, nope, I didn't like the answer.

"Nice to meet you, Ted. Are you in Dawn's class?

Ted Replied, "Yeah, we take Bio I together."

Buffy was sure she wasn't going to like this guy. Bio 1?

Leaning over, she asked Dawn, "Hey, why is this guy so pale. He's not another vamp, is he?"

"No, Buffy, he's been sick, he ate some bad eggs the other day. "His mother is a big time chef on some cooking show, She's always using him to try out some big food surprise she's whipped up."

NEXT: 26-28, Innocene, Phases, Bewitched, bothered & bewildered

Date Posted: 09:23:46 12/07/01 Fri

Author: GreatRewards

Subject: Eps 26-28 (reprinted from below)

In reply to:Brian's message, "Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22)" on 09:23:46 12/07/01 Fri

(Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered")

Xander: "'Pixie dust?' That wasn't in the script! What's going on?"

Buffy: "Um, confused now, much. Maybe Ed'll know what to make of this. Let's go see him."

Xander: "No. You go ahead if you want, but I'm not going to talk to that guy."

Buffy: "Are you STILL sore at him? What the heck did he ever do, anyways?"

Xander: "Oh sure. Take HIS side. Am I the only person who sees through his little 'innocence' charade? I say he's a demon. Why doesn't anyone believe me?"

Buffy: "I see. Is this another one of those 'paranoia' phases of yours, Xand? Cuz I gotta say: 'not liking it'!"

Xander: "I'll show you. I'll show all of you. Maybe Willow'll help me cast a spell on him. Yeah! That's the trick! I'll Bewitch Ed, bother Ed & bewilder Ed to no end! He'll run from Sunnydale screaming!"


Xander: "or maybe not. Wanna go to the Bronze?"

(Next Eps: Old Passion, Killed by Death, I Only Have Eyes for You)

Date Posted: 11:19:44 12/07/01 Fri

Author: Marcie

Subject: Episodes 28-31

In reply to:GreatRewards's message, "Eps 26-28 (reprinted from below)" on 11:19:44 12/07/01 Fri

The Bronze was humming tonight. Electric. You could feel the passion in the air. It was hot, smoky, and something was wrong.

Spike looked around, but couldn't see her anywhere. Where are ya' Slayer? Aloud, all he said was "I know she's here. I smell 'er."

Giles curled a fastidious lip and looked at the vampire. "Smell her? Good Lord, that's really quite disgusting."

Spike scowled. "Disgusting, huh? Well I won't be so disgusting when I stop her from being killed by-"

"Death is not what I fear for her tonight, Spike - she's been dead already. She can face it again if she has to."

Spike's black leather coat swirled as he spun on his heels and stalked away from the other man.

Shaking his head, Giles started to follow, only to pull up short at the sight of Xander and Anya dancing. The music was soft, dreamy, and as he walked over to them, he heard Xander croon to his lover. "I only have eyes for you," he sang, and Giles winced. Leaning across, he tapped Xander on the shoulder.

"If you've quite finished exercising your rather excruciating vocal chords, we have to find Buffy."

"Hey!" said Anya, indignantly. "Why don't you go look for her - we're busy!"

(Next: Go Fish / Becoming (twice!) / Anne)

Date Posted: 13:01:40 12/07/01 Fri

Author: Brian

Subject: Re: Eps 29-31(reprinted from below)

In reply to:GreatRewards's message, "Eps 26-28 (reprinted from below)" on 13:01:40 12/07/01 Fri

Buffy: I think this passion fruit is making my lips numb.

Xander: Just like the real thing I guess. Say, what would you call your relationship to Spike now-a- days?

Buffy: How'd you like to be killed by death using slow, torturous ways?

Xander: Give me a break, Buffy. Didn't I just see him two nights ago under your window singing, "I only have eyes for you?"

Date Posted: 11:05:48 12/07/01 Fri

Author: Once More With Feeling

Subject: Eps 23-25 (reprinted from below)

In reply to:Brian's message, "Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22)" on 11:05:48 12/07/01 Fri

Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"

Ted tiptoed into the living room and switched the TV set off. Margie had fallen asleep late the night before watching the latest Buffy episode for the umteenth time -- something about HAVING to get certain lines JUST RIGHT so she could logically and correctly over-analyze every gory detail with her gang of cyber-pals.

"I swear, she prefers strangers, dysfunctional kids and vampires to my own fine company," he grumbled thinking about her cold, unslept-in side of their bed.

He looked at his wife on the sofa. Margie was sprawled at a somewhat unnatural angle, with her body stretched out in one direction, but her head facing the TV set. Of course, now, her eyes were closed and she kept mumbling under her breath something that sounded like "No matter how good it feels."

"Feels good... yea, I'll show you feels good. She even thinks about complaining about a stiff neck..." he mumbled to himself and then brightened as a plan began to formulate.

"I know! I'll surprise her with a special breakfast and then we can spend the day together. Just the two of us with NO Buffy and especially NO Spike!"

Whistling softly, Ted went into the kitchen to start his preparations. He pulled all the necessary fixin's out of the refridgerator, cabinets and shelves. First he chopped onions, tomatoes, and peppers. Next on his list was cutting leftover ham into perfect little cubes. He lovingly sliced curls of butter into a small ceramic ramkin and sat a flaky croissant on a plate. Not wanting to wake Margie with the noise from the juicer, he painstakingly squeezed, by hand, 12 oranges for four precious onces of fresh juice. He laid out a plate, silverwear and a napkin on a breakfast tray covered with an antique battenburg lace placemat. The final touch - one perfect red rose from the garden in her favorite crystal bud vase.

When his preparations were complete, he melted butter in the skillet just the right temperature for the perfect omelet. One last trip to the fridge yielded the last two eggs from the carton. Holding them in one hand, Ted deftly cracked the two eggs together with the intention of whisking them until light and fluffy. Instead, he was greeted with the most disgusting, nauseating, paint-blistering, eye- watering stench to ever assail his tender nostrils.

Ted picked up the mixing bowl, and holding his nose, proceeding to throw the entire mishmash into the garbage can sitting just outside the kitchen door.

"Damn, bad eggs."

Ted shook his head sadly and walked slowly into the living room where he turned on the TV just in time to catch the demon disappearing in a trail of pixie dust.

Next Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered"

Date Posted: 13:08:27 12/07/01 Fri

Author: Brian

Subject: Re: Eps 32-34

In reply to:Once More With Feeling's message, "Eps 23-25 (reprinted from below)" on 13:08:27 12/07/01 Fri

Xander and Dawn were playing cards at the Magic Box. Buffy and Spike were on patrol. Anya was at the mall shopping for Bridal stuff. Lots of stuff.

Dawn: Got any 7's

Xander: Go fish.

Dawn: Rats, this game is becoming very boring.

Xander: "Becoming boring. Ha, that's because I winning!"
[> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 3) -- MrDave, 17:32:38 12/13/01 Thu

Date Posted: 20:42:05 12/08/01 Sat

Author: LadyStarlight

Subject: Season Three dialogue thingy (Anne, Dead Man's Party, Faith, Hope and Trick)

Spike turned from the bar, beer in hand. He took a step forward and watched with resignation as a tall redhead backed into his drink.

She turned with a gasp. "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." She grabbed a handful of napkins and dabbed at his beer soaked shirt. He gently pushed her hand aside.

"Don't worry about it, love. Happens all the time."

She gestured to the bartender. "Let me replace that for you."

She placed the bottle in his hand and smiled. "Hi, I'm Anne."

"Spike. Nice to meet you."

They drifted over to a deserted table and listened to the music for a minute.

"What do you think of the band?"

Spike looked up at the stage. "Dead Man's Party? They're all right, I guess. Rather see Green Day or the Dingoes, though."

He drew closer to her and noticed the charms on her necklace. He slid his hand between the thin chain and her skin.

"Interesting. An anchor, a heart and a cross." Gently flicking each charm, he said "Faith, Hope and "


"Ch--Trick? What?"

"You're not human! Damnit! I needed a human to work the spell." She pushed rudely past him, once again spilling the beer all over him.

"Bloody women! Oi, waitress! Jack on the rocks."

Date Posted: 01:34:10 12/09/01 Sun

Author: d'Herblay

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Beauty and the Beasts, Homecoming, Band Candy)

In reply to:LadyStarlight's message, "Season Three dialogue thingy (Anne, Dead Man's Party, Faith, Hope and Trick)" on 01:34:10 12/09/01 Sun

It was a quiet day in the Magic Box, so Anya and Xander just sat, staring into each others' eyes.

"I love you," she said.

"I love you more," said he. "And I can imagine no possible impediments to our marrying and spending the rest of our happy little lives together."

The door swung open. A cold breeze swept into the shop as an ominous shadow crossed the floor.

"I'm home!" said Cordelia.

"Cordelia?" said Xander. "What are you doing here?"

"Daddy made a fortune shorting tech stocks on E-Trade in prison. He's rich again, and I'm here to enjoy it."

"Shouldn't you be in L.A.? I thought you had a new life there. You know, there, as in far away from here."

"Well, you know L.A. It was just beauty and the beasts. I was beauty, by the way."

Anya frowned. "I hate to interrupt this homecoming, but I have to tell you to keep your spotlessly clean yet metaphorically dirty hands off of my Xander."

"Please. I'm a leading lady now. I spurn the advances of title characters. A nothing like Xander would never catch my eye."

"Good. I am relieved to discover that you consider my fiance a 'nothing.'"

"An, let's not encourage her," said Xander. "Well, welcome back to Sunnydale, Cordy. Just when I thought the town couldn't get any more evil, here you are."

Anya said, "I feel there's something I should be saying here, but it's like I can't remember the words."

"So," said Cordelia, "now that I've grown as a character and can handle myself in a fight, is there any evil a-brewin'? Some wrongs to right? Giant snakes to kill? Perhaps some patriarchy to overthrow?"

Anya pointed to a copy of The International Sunnydale Herald Tribune. "According to what I've been reading, the Mullahs banned Khandahar women from seeking education or medical help. We could join in the mopping-up."

Emerging from her basement training room, Buffy mopped her perplexed forehead. "What was that? Something about--"

"Don't even try that, Buffy," said Xander. "We're taking this very seriously. There will be no quick short-cuts."

"Well," said Cordelia, "We'd better find something to do. Because other than my newly regained wealth, there's not a lot in this town that interests me. It's like Peoria crossed with a gulag. I swear, if you could bottle drab and can dystopia, this town might finally have some industry."

"Gee. Cryptic much? Who turned you into a word-search?" asked Buffy.

"I think his name was Durbley . . . I didn't quite catch it."

Anya's face took on a sudden glow. "You could help plan our wedding. Xander wants to go with a DJ, but I want a band. Can Deee-Lite make it, you think? Because I really think an early-nineties one-hit wonder makes a fine addition to any wedding reception."

Buffy frowned. "Not quite fully human yet, are you?"

"But she's getting there, and I'm enjoying the process," said Xander. He kissed Anya lightly on the cheek, then again, as she pulled him tightly toward her. Their lips met and she pushed him back on the table, knocking over a discounted Globe of Tiresias. When Anya began flicking her tongue into Xander's ear, Cordelia had to turn away.

"I always know that I can count on Sunnydale for truly disturbing imagery," she said.

"I know," said Buffy. "They do this all the time. It really makes me miss heaven; there are no public displays of affection in heaven. Well, a lot of hugging, and the occasional pat on the back. But this is out of a demon dimension. The only thing worse I've seen was Giles making out with my mother."

"Giles made out with your mother? When? Why?"

"It was when they were under the influence of the magical band candy . . . hey! I suddenly feel a strange sense of closure!"

Cordelia looked sternly at Buffy. "I think it's cheating if you actually refer to the episode."

"Well, who asked you? You're a terribly contrived cross-over character anyway. My work here is done. I'm out of here."

(Next: "Revelations," "Lovers' Walk" and "The Wish.")

Date Posted: 12:11:11 12/09/01 Sun

Author: Wisewoman

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Revelations, Lovers' Walk, The Wish)

In reply to:d'Herblay's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Beauty and the Beasts, Homecoming, Band Candy)" on 12:11:11 12/09/01 Sun

Cordelia's nostrils flared, and her eyes narrowed dangerously as she watched Buffy stroll from the shop, passing Giles on her way out.

"Good Lord! Cor..Cordelia!, how have you been?"

"How have I been??!! Don't give me that. You and Buffy's mom? Oh my God, that's so gross!"

"" Giles began frantically cleaning his glasses in confusion and embarrassment.

"Well, what other revelations have I missed while I was in LA?"

"Buffy died again," Xander offered.

"We're getting married," Anya chimed in.

"Dawn killed her, uh, her first vampire at Hallowe'en, on Lovers' Walk, in the park..." Giles said.

"Okay, whoa!" Cordelia shouted. "Back up there, guys. Buffy died AGAIN? Then who was that that just waltzed out of here?"

"Oh, we brought her back," said Anya, matter-of-factly. "Willow did a spell. I got the Urn of Osiris on e-Bay..."

"Willow did a spell? Geez, when I left she couldn't even de-rat Amy..."

"Yes, well, as I've tried to tell them," said Giles, "the act of bringing Buffy back is bound to have some truly horrendous repercussions..."

"Giles, don't go there, okay?" said Xander. "I know, I know, we shoulda told you about it, but the wish to have Buffy back was just too strong...and Willow said she could do it..."

"Yes, well...," Giles began.

"Wait a minute!" Cordelia glared at each of them in turn. "Who the hell is Dawn?"


Date Posted: 14:22:23 12/09/01 Sun

Author: Isabel

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Amends, Gingerbread, Helpless)

In reply to:Wisewoman's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Revelations, Lovers' Walk, The Wish)" on 14:22:23 12/09/01 Sun

The Scooby Gang froze. She didn't know...

"Wh-what do you mean, 'Who the Hell is Dawn?'" Giles stammered.

Cordelia looked at them in disgust. "I've been in LA for two and a half years! Like any of you called to keep me up to date with your friends or something." She sniffed, "Like I care." Her face showing only cool disdain.

A customer moved towards the cash register with an item to purchase and Anya hurried over to take his money before he could change his mind.

Xander looked at Giles. "Um, Cordy. Are you sure you don't remember..."

"Oh wait a minute!" Cordy interrupted "Dawn's Willow's lesbo- girlfriend!"

"No!" Xander burst out horrified.

"I'd always wondered if Angel or Cordelia would know Dawn." Giles commented to himself as he cleaned his glasses again.

Anya came back over after making the sale. "No, Willow's girlfriend's name is Tara. She's very nice." Anya patted Xander's arm. "He's just upset because Dawn's Buffy's little sister and he can't handle the idea of her having sex. Dawn that is, not Buffy." Anya gave a stern glance at Xander who was still sputtering a little. "He still thinks too much about Buffy's sex life."

Cordy rolled her eyes. "I remember, he used to do that when he dated me! It was such a turn off."

"I caught him checking out her butt two days ago during training and we haven't had sex since."

Xander, his face scarlet, tried to stop her. "Ahn, I didn't do anything wrong! Really!"

"You apologized!"

"If I didn't apologize, you'd never stop being mad at me. What can I do to make amends?"

"Stop checking out Buffy! I don't like it." Anya pouted. "But, we could do that thing we did last month..."

Giles and Cordelia moved towards the research table to get away from the couple who had started kissing in the middle of the sales floor.

"So Giles," Cordelia began, "Last time I checked Buffy was an only child."

"It's complicated, Cordelia. It seems that last year, in the time of mystical convergence, to prevent the hellbeast Glorificus from subsuming the essence of the Key, the Monks of..."

"Short version, Giles. I'm getting wrinkles just listening to you. Thank God I'm breaking Wesley of that habit."

Giles glared at her. It occurred to him he hadn't missed her that much. "OK. Last year some monks cast a spell turning the Key into Dawn, Buffy's 14 year old sister. We all got fake memories. The end." That'll show her.

"What did they make her out of, gingerbread?"

"No, mystical energy from the dawn of time."


"She's a very sweet girl. She reminds me of Buffy when I first met her. Full of innocence with just a touch of rule breaking." He grinned at Cordelia. "I love the helpless looks on Buffy's face when Dawn breaks some of the same rules Buffy did." Of course, he didn't love it when Buffy expected him to reprimand Dawn.

"That's nice." Cordy cut into his reverie. "Is April Fool's still in business? I want to go in there and torment the manager a little before I leave town." Yes, she'd grown as a person, but there are things that a girl's gotta do.


Next up: The Zeppo, Bad Girls, and Consequences

Date Posted: 15:29:30 12/09/01 Sun

Author: mundusmundi

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (The Zeppo. Bad Girls, Consequences)

In reply to:Isabel's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Amends, Gingerbread, Helpless)" on 15:29:30 12/09/01 Sun

Spike could smell them coming a block away, even while taking a last drag on a cigarette and trying to ignore the fact he hadn't bathed since the time Angelus pushed him overboard into the Sea of Japan.

"Well, well, pet," he said, flicking the cigarette to a nearby tombstone. The cemetery glowed in the pale moonlight. "Come back for some more vamp action, have we?"

Buffy stuck a finger down her throat, flashed Spike that look of pure disgust he knew all too well and said "Don't be gross." Oh, yeah, he thought, she's turned on.

"And you've brought another little chickadee." Spike squinted in the dark at the tall figure behind the Slayer. "Well, plenty of the Big Bad to share. And who might you be?"

"You idiot," Cordelia said. "Me."

Suddenly Spike felt the compulsion for another cig. "Oh. Right. Sorry. Good to see you again. Nice heels," he dissembled.

Cordelia stood beside Buffy and said, "I don't believe this. 'Miss It Girl' leaves town for a couple years and suddenly she's yesterday's Glamour. Thank the Powers Angel still appreciates me."

"Maybe we should take a picture of the two of us together, for your old Boy Toy," Spike suggested. "Technically, I shouldn't show up on film, but somehow rules do get skirted around here for the sake of convenience."

Cordy's hands were on her hips. "And now you're tombing up with his old lackey! What's next, Oz boinking a she-wolf?"

"It-it-it's just a phase," Buffy said. "I mean me, not Oz. Spike, will you put away the Zeppo and listen?"

He snapped the lighter shut. "It's a Zippo, luv. And who really wants to talk? Less quibble, more nibble."

"Ewwww," Cordy said, and clutched her stomach. "And I used to think I was-- "

"You're both bad girls." Spike tried to put an arm around Buffy, only to get brushed back. "You both taste the darkness. You love it. You breathe it. You live it every day. And you'll stop at nothing until you--"

"Wow, Mr. Perceptive!" Cordy cut in. "Well, listen up, Fergie and Andrew. The only reason I came back was to tell you I had a vision."

"A vision," Buffy said.

"Of the two of you. Doing that...voodoo that you do. Why do you think I'm carrying this around?" Cordy opened a small traveler's bottle of Pepto Bismol and downed a shot. "Don't you realize what you're doing? There are consequences to everything."

"Are you saying we're going to die?" Buffy asked. "Or maybe I get to stake him, 'cause that'd work."

Cordelia started to answer, but instead reached for her head. "Oh, shi-" she said, and fell to the ground.

Next up: Doppelgangland, Enemies, Earshot.

Date Posted: 03:55:29 12/10/01 Mon

Author: Marie

Subject: Doppelgangland / Enemies / Earshot

In reply to:mundusmundi's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (The Zeppo. Bad Girls, Consequences)" on 03:55:29 12/10/01 Mon

"Ahhh!" Clutching her head, Cordelia curled into the foetal position, and all Spike and Buffy could hear were mumbled groans. They bent over her.

"What's up with her? Spike asked, as he crouched at Cordelia's side.

"It's oo, nooo, it's a doppelgang-"

"Land sakes, can't make out a bleedin' word. C'mon, love, gerra grip!"

"It isn't her fault, Spike. Angel says-"

"Angel says! Angel says? You just had to bring him into it, didn't ya? Bleedin' poof! What the hell does Angel say, eh?"

"Oh, for God's sake, don't start, okay! Every time!"

"Hey... HEY!" Cordelia sat up and glared them, her face pale. "Have you two forgotten something? Vision Girl here! Headaches! People in trouble! Enemies to fight!"

Two blonde heads turned. "Oh. Yeah. Er, sorry, Cordy. Um... what did you see?" Buffy stretched out an arm and hoisted the other girl to her feet.

"Yeah... you were, er, mumblin' somthin' about an 'Itsoo'. What is it, a demon?"

"No, not an Itsoo, peabrain, "it's you". I saw you. You were shooting people in a park... only it wasn't you..."

"Huh? You saw Spike? Shooting people? Human people? Not biting them? But it wasn't him?" Buffy stared at Cordelia, then turned her gaze on Spike, who scowled at her.

"Hey! Don't look at me like that! I didn't do it!"

"But you're going to!"

"No!" Cordelia rolled her eyes. "I'm going back to LA, I swear! I didn't get this much grief from Harm! It wasn't Spike, it was some kind of doppelgranger."

Spike looked at her. "Doppelgranger? D'you mean Doppelganger?"

"That's what I said!"

"You saw a doppelganger of me, shooting people!"

"Aaarrgh! YES!" Cordelia yelled, exasperated. "I saw people lying, dead, wounded, and one guy with his ear shot off. And can I just add - yuck!"

Buffy gawped at them. "You're telling us that there's another Spike in Sunnydale? And he's killing people?"

"How many times?" Cordy replied. "YES!"

Spike smirked. "Well, cool!"

(Next: Choices / The Prom / Graduation Day (twice!))

Date Posted: 03:14:26 12/10/01 Mon

Author: d'Herblay

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Doppelgangland, Enemies, Earshot)

In reply to:mundusmundi's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (The Zeppo. Bad Girls, Consequences)" on 03:14:26 12/10/01 Mon

"Spike!" Buffy yelled. "Go get help! Go get Giles!"

cardinalcrimsonprimrosebloodshot eyes opening on a rain of frogs. The salamander cannot hear the salamanderer. Sha'i-Pir. Humanbodies oozing dripping like ice creamcones bisected: parable, ellipsis, hyperbole. Martial tunes are played with jovial glee; venereal disease rots the soldierboys. Sha'i-Pir. Immanuel and ornithorhynchus echo through the warfields as mercurial passions awaken saturnine morning. Sha'i-Pir. Lunaticlunatic but nothing for the sun? Nothing for the son?

Bloodshot eyes opened unto the sun. But while there was a man in the moon, what face had the sun? Cordelia blinked, tried to focus. It was Buffy, staring down at her, illuminated in the harsh incandescence of the headlights of Xander's car. Cordelia noted that Buffy had still not accepted her shiny complexion when a spasm of pain drove the thought from her head.

"Are you all right?" asked Buffy. "What's your name?"

Xander loomed overhead. "What year is it?"

"Come on, pet, don't swallow your tongue . . . um . . . how many fingers am I holding up?"

Anya, languid in the back seat of the car, perked up. "Ooh! I've got a question! In World War Two, what was a G.I.'s shaving bag called?"

"Anya, I really don't think that's the sort of question you ask when you're assessing someone after a seizure," Giles pointed out. "You might as well ask who acquired the friezes of the Parthenon for the British Museum."

"Or what type of structure the pituitary and the adrenal are examples of," added Tara. Noticing the looks the others gave her, she stammered, "I was pre-med before I got into Wicca."

Grabbing Buffy's shoulder, Cordelia pulled herself upwards. "Who died and made you guys Regis? Cordelia. 2001. None; that's a cigarette. Dopp. Elgan. Gland. Codeine."

"That's Elgin. Bloody colonials with your creative pronunciations. But, I suppose we'll accept it under the circumstances."

Spike rested a hand lightly on Cordelia's shoulder. "I've got some codeine in my crypt, love. Sometimes I get headaches too."

Buffy whacked him on the back. "You what?"

"Well, the town is running out of demons, and I need to stay trim. I don't kill anyone, just break a few bones now and again."

"Boy," said Xander. "You can lead a vampire to chipsville, but you can't make him not drink."

Buffy shot an evil look at Spike. "We'll discuss this later. Cordelia, can you move?"

"Not so well. It hurts when I stand up. Or when I sit down. And when I breathe or think."

"Well," said Xander, "you should be okay then."

"Right, Mr. Three-years-out-of-high-school-and-I'm-still-hanging-with-my-loser-friends. I see some new faces."

Tara extended a hand. "Willow's watching Dawn. I'm Tara. I'm Willow's girlfriend." She pulled the hand back. "I understand you might have some issues with that. Well, I'm here, I'm queer, and I hope that's all right."

"Whatever. You can rub my neck. That always helps after a vision."

As Tara positioned herself behind Cordelia, Giles leaned down. "That was a vision? Fascinating. It appeared to take the form of a grand mal seizure. Or a class-six demonic possession."

"Well, the Powers-That-Be don't tread lightly. You have soft hands."

"Thank you," Tara said. "I use a poultice of newt's liver and ginseng."

"Xander? Come rub my neck for a while. Anyway, the vision I got was a doozy. It said that the Sha'i-Pir wars are imminent."

Buffy's forehead formed a furrow of perplexion. "The shipper wars? What are those."

"The Sha'i-Pir wars," explained Giles, "are written of in the Codex of Adhem Ibn Nizamuddin. They are the final event any seer has foreseen. A war of biblical proportions, they turn healthy communities overnight into blood-soaked ground."

"Right," said Cordelia. "One day, everyone's, 'Oh! Good to see you. Hope you're doing well.' And the next, there are crosses and stakes and entrails everywhere."

"But the Sha'i-Pir wars require the conjunction of two great enemies to be unleashed. And I know of no such conjunction."

With a quick jerk of his head, Spike beckoned Buffy aside. "You know, if these wars the girl talks about are imminent, perhaps we should go easy on things. Before we start having to make some hard choices."

Buffy shook her head. "It's too early for that. Plus, Cordelia talking. This is the woman who once swore that she knew Gwyneth Paltrow before the nose job."

Back by Xander's car, Willow and Dawn approached.

"Hey, guys, sorry we're late. I was showing Dawn how to turn a bus-full of innocent people into salamanders for one's own enjoyment and we had some trouble turning them back. Surprisingly, I have almost as much salamander-fear as I do frog-fear."

"Frog-fear is a ridiculous phobia," said Anya.

Dawn smiled broadly. "It was neat. I learned how to shape the universe to my will without a twinge of compunction."

Giles flapped his hand at them. "Quiet. We're trying to decipher mystical prophecies here. Now this conjoining, what could it be?"

"Well," said Cordelia, "Wesley suggested that certain forces of the universe could not handle the idea of Buffy dancing the fang-dango with a second vampire. So when Spike and Buffy had sex, all hell broke loose."

Dawn's eyes began to water. "What? Buffy had sex with Spike? After all that's happened? How could she make such a stupid choice?" Tears now streaming down her cheeks, she ran to Buffy and pounded her with both fists. "You're supposed to be keeping me safe and you're ignoring me so you can do that?" She took off running.

Cordelia leaned over towards Giles. "Maybe we shouldn't have talked about this within earshot of the fake girl."

"Dawn!" Buffy called. "Come back! I'll explain everything! At least stay off of Elmwood Drive. There's a nest of Garivo demons I haven't cleaned out yet."

She returned to the group. "Well, there's an apocalypse on the horizon and Dawn needs rescuing. We all know the drill. Let's saddle up."

Xander stood solidly still. "Actually, Dawn raises an interesting point. Namely, the point of what the hell?"

(Next: Choices, The Prom, Graduation Day, Part One.)

Date Posted: 20:32:29 12/10/01 Mon

Author: Wisewoman

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Choices, The Prom, Graduation Day Part One)

In reply to:d'Herblay's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Doppelgangland, Enemies, Earshot)" on 20:32:29 12/10/01 Mon

Buffy stared back at him, hands on hips. "Excuse me?"

"You slept with Spike?" Xander looked stunned.

"And your point is?"

"On the top of my head, obviously. How come I didn't know this?"

"That's not really the point, is it? And the point of all this getting-to-the-pointyness is, I've got to go and save Dawn."

Anya managed to worm her way between the two antagonists, facing Xander. "Sweetie, what are you trying to say? Do you think we should just let the little girl die? 'Cause I'll support you if that's what you want. You're the man I'm going to marry!" She beamed up at him happily, before pulling his head down for a very enthusiastic kiss.

"Okay, eeeewwww!" Cordelia was still shakily holding a hand to her head. The rolling of her eyes seemed to be causing her more pain. "Just what has been going on here? I can't believe how messed up you guys are. I can fix this. Buffy, you're supposed to be with Angel..."

Spike jumped from his perch on the counter and strode toward Cordelia. "Look, just sod off, okay? This isn't helping..."

Cordelia rounded on him. "And you, you are SO obviously meant to spend eternity with Drusilla." She glanced around the room. "Xander and Willow are destined to end up together..."

"What?" Tara yelped. "I...sorry, I just never th-thought..."

"Okay, so that leaves you at a loose end, Ms. Lesbo Fantastico, but I don't see any reason why you wouldn't hit it off with the ex-Vengeance-Demon here. I mean, c'mon Anya, you must have a thousand years' worth of reasons to swear off men forever, am I right?"

Anya looked thoughtful. "Now that you mention it..."

"Great. Okay, that leaves Giles Ooops! Can't have that. Giles, why don't you just go back to England and look up that friend of yours, what was her name, Olivia? And I'm gonna head back to LA and take up with Wesley where we left off years ago. I might even do some match-making for Gunn and Fred."

"Hang on...I don't even know where Dru's got to." Spike's tone was verging on a whine.

"She could be dead and dusted, for all I know."

"Hey, SO not my problem. Go look up Harmony then...oh, I forgot, she left you too, didn't she, Mr. I'm-so-Big-and-Bad?"

Spike's snarl preceded the assumption of game face. Cordy took a quick step back.

"Okay, okay, chill! Oh, I know...what about Junior!Buffy? You're both about the same age mentally..."

Suddenly there was dead silence in the shop. No one spoke. No one moved. All eyes were trained on Cordelia, who finally let out a nervous little laugh.

"What? Hey, it was just a suggestion..."

Buffy slowly moved toward Cordelia, her hands clenched at her sides. From nowhere, Giles leapt between them, holding open a large and moldy book.

"I've found it...I...I think." He kept Buffy away from Cordelia with one hand, while squinting at the ancient and all-but-indecipherable tome.

"The Sha'i-Pir wars, yes, it's here in the Codex, but it's difficult to...the conjunction appears to be of two, well, two people, one 'not dead' and one 'not alive.' Huh. Odd way of putting, in any event, the joining of these two will divide the entire world. Some will revel in the...the...depravity of their union, while others, um, become nauseated at the very thought. Well. There. You see? That's obviously the answer. Spike is the 'not dead' individual and Buffy is the...Aaaiiiiyyyeeee!"

"See, Giles?" Buffy smiled sarcastically. "Definitely alive. Total aliveness here. Not even a little bit 'not alive.'"

Giles rolled on the floor in agony, curled in a foetal position. "Uh...yes...," he managed to gasp. "Sorry...wrong interpretation..."

Anya had slipped her arm through Tara's and rested her head on the taller woman's shoulder. "Well, what are the other choices? I think it means Dawn. She's not really alive, is she?"

"Right," Willow piped up from her perch on Xander's lap. "That's right, so, so it probably means, if we keep Dawn and Spike apart..."

"Presto. No Sha'i-Pir wars," Xander finished triumphantly. He gazed lovingly at Willow and whispered in her ear, "I can't believe you wouldn't let me take you to the prom."

Cordelia had a look of smug satisfaction. "Looks to me like all of you are finally starting to grow up. Buffy? You wanna head back to LA with me? I'm sure Angel's just dy...uh, he'll be really happy to see you."

Buffy pouted. "I'm not sure. I don't really get this part. I mean, I got the whole, "Into every generation," slayer part, and the "class protector at the prom" part and the "Mayor turns into a giant snake on Graduation Day" thing I always wanted to know, though. How come people keep trying to push me back into the "hopelessly-in-love-with- the-bad-hair-vamp part?"

No one replied.

Next up: Graduation Day Part Two, The Freshman, Living Conditions
[> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) -- MrDave, 17:38:17 12/13/01 Thu

Date Posted: 12:57:57 12/11/01 Tue

Author: mundusmundi

Subject: Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Graduation Day Part Two, The Freshman, Living Conditions)

In reply to:Wisewoman's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Choices, The Prom, Graduation Day Part One)" on 12:57:57 12/11/01 Tue

No one replied...until of course Anya replied, since Anya always replied after a time when nobody else bothered to do the replying.

"So long as you mentioned the 'Mayor turns into a snake on Graduation Day' part...two things I've always meant to ask you about that," Anya said to Buffy, as they walked home with the others. "First, why did you leave Faith's knife on the balcony for anyone to find it, and second-- "

Giles interjected, "We can discuss hoary contrivances from past epis--er, past events of our lives later. Right now, it's imperative that we find Dawn, contact Buffy's gadabout father, and send her far away from Sunnydale before the prophecy of the Sha'i-Pir wars is fulfilled. Agreed?"

"Agreed," all chimed in.

"Nobody lays a hand on the little bit," Spike growled.

The gang's progress came to an abrupt halt.

"What are you doing?" Buffy demanded.

It took a beat for Spike to realize. "Right. Sorry. Force of habit."

"You can't be anywhere near Dawn. Ever. Again. Shoo. Go home."

They watched him retreat. "All too relevant question. Why don't we send Spike away instead?" Xander wondered.

Willow tapped Buffy on the shoulder. "You 'kay?" she whispered. "Still worried about that thing you've become since I selfishly resurrected you from the dead?"

Buffy shook her head. "It's not that. I'm just trying to figure out why this always happens to me. I-I-I mean, what kind of people would care about who I'm having sex with?"


Across the street, the van stalked the Scooby Gang, keeping a safe distance with its headlights off.

"Dude, slow down," Warren ordered. "We can't let her seeing us."

At the wheel, Andrew chuckled. The new night vision goggles over his eyes, souped-up to broadcast free cable porn, worked like a charm. "She won't be seeing us at all before long, not after we get the--"

"Don't spoil it," Jonathan whined, and smacked Andrew's shoulder. He came from the back of the van and motioned him to turn right. "You're always doing that. Like when we saw Harry Potter, and I thought Quirrell was the good guy, and Snape the bad one."

"It's your own fault you haven't started the books," Warren said. "Been too busy playing with your magic bone?"

They giggled. Andrew added, "Alan Rickman rocks my world."

The van turned on Elmwood Drive, where a nest of Garivo demons lay at the very end. "Do you see her?" Warren asked.

Andrew adjusted the goggles, and the movie Cum-ing Home gave way to a night vision scanner. Through the ultraviolet rays he detected Buffy's sister, Dawn.

"The freshman has left the kegger," he intoned. On Warren and Jonathan's quizzical looks he added, "It's code. Hello?"

"Are you saying she's by herself?" Warren asked.

Andrew nodded. "The pigeon has left the roost."

Warren took the goggles and watched as Dawn kicked a mailbox with her foot. The SuperMic caught a faint echo of "Ow...."

Removing the goggles, Warren said, "The pigeon is headed directly to the nest. Just as planned. I know you're both aware that although I asked you to trust me, Phase 2 was a big bust, what with that thing the Slayer has become and all. But trust me when I promise you that Phase 3 cannot fail!"

"Should know...wait and watch? Make sure they don't hurt her," Jonathan murmured.

"What for? We've got primo living conditions waiting for us back home." Warren and Andrew switched seats and the former backed up the van. "The freeze gun, the gorilla thing. And this morning, in the make-out room, Mom added a strobe light." He smiled.

"Oooh, bitchin'," Andrew and Jonathan said.

"To the bronze," Warren said, "for chips and chicks." And they left Dawn to her fate.

Next: The Harsh Light of Day; Fear, Itself; Beer Bad.

Date Posted: 21:55:21 12/11/01 Tue

Author: MrDave

Subject: Re: (The Harsh Light of Day; Fear, Itself; Beer Bad)

In reply to:mundusmundi's message, "Re: Season Three dialogue thingy (Graduation Day Part Two, The Freshman, Living Conditions)" on 21:55:21 12/11/01 Tue

THE three would-be-supervillains parked their deathvan outside the Bronze and saundered in. The high-school crowd eyed the obviously older trio a little oddly as they chose a dark and (relatively) quiet corner to plan (and watch the young girls dancing).

Andrew started with "So how are we going to eliminate Buffy again anyway?"

Warren snickered..."I vote we wait until her boyfriend gives her a 'love bite' and then we drag her into the harsh light of day"

Jonathan seemed a little dismayed at the suggestion.."No it'll be easier to divert her attention elsewhere."

Jonathan pulled out his Palm and showed the others the presentaion he had prepared to outline his plan.

"It's simple boys. We want to control Sunnydale, so we have to create a state of chaos. So first we start with suffering. When the people Suffer, they begin to hate. THe hate is transferred to the government, and the government begins to fear. Its the opposite of the Jedi..."

Warren cut him off "We got it...where do we start?"

Jonathan contined, "Well then, its simple. Fear, itself is our weapon. By..."

Andrew and Warren in unison, "Get ON with it!"

Jonathan: "Okay enough with the Mojo Jojo imitation. We create suffering through emotional turmoil. The diamond we liberated is large enough to create a subsonic frequency that excites certain neural clusters in the cereberal cortex to cause a low level headache. This in turn makes everyone cranky..."

"Thats it?" blurted out Warren, "Thats the stupidest plan I ever heard!"

Andrew was quick to add, "I have to agree, it does seem a little half-baked."

Jonathan, backed up defensively, "Oh really? And you have a better plan?"

Warren snapped back, "What about the plan that we, " he gestured around the table at the troika, " planned together weeks ago. The one we stole the diamond for in the FIRST place? Phase One? Remember?"

Jonathan looked whipped, "But that plan invoves killing Buffy. This one just gets her out of the way"

Andrew looked back at Warren, like an observer at a tennis match. Warren looked smug, "And why not kill her?"

Jonathan backed down. This was not the time or the place. In fact there was one thing this was the time and place for.

"I need a beer. Bad."

Date Posted: 20:54:25 12/12/01 Wed

Author: MrDave

Subject: Re: (Wild at Heart, the Initiative, Pangs) By Popular request

In reply to:MrDave's message, "Re: (The Harsh Light of Day; Fear, Itself; Beer Bad)" on 20:54:25 12/12/01 Wed

Dawn stomped down the street until she was sure Buffy couldn't see her any more...then she doubled back towards the house. The Scoobies wouldn't look there for hours.

Pulling out the earplugs from her pocket she clicked play on her MP3 player and half skipped to the tune Wild at Heart by Arora K. She dug this song especially the lyrics:












Great stuff. As she hopped up the front porch steps to the chorus she reached for her keys, only to find her pocket was empty. "Well this bites," she thought.

"Can't get in?" said a voice behind her.

Turning around, she saw a boy from her class. She thought his name might be Tommy.

"Um...I have a key here somewhere," said Dawn, "I just can't find it"

"Its okay, I can't get in either. Want to hang out?" he asked.

Since Dawn remembered him from class she decided it couldn't be all bad, "Sure"

Sitting on the front porch together, Tommy talked about how he couldn't get into his house and went walking down the street looking for someone with a phone. "We have a phone inside," offered Dawn.

"Can I go inside and use it?"

Suddenly Dawn felt like the question was weird. A leading question. She remembered when her initiative had allowed harmony into the house to attack Xander. "Well, I can't let you key."

"Well then, lets walk back into town. I can use a pay phone, and I am getting hunger pangs." He stood up and started to walk, "Coming?"

Dawn stood, walked to right behind him and jabbed her pencil into his back.

"What the hell!" yelled Tommy, as he whipped around to grab the bloody pencil, "What was that all about?"

Dawn was too embarassed to say anything. He wasn't a vampire, he was just a boy. She just cried and ran around the back of the house. "Oh no, oh my...If Buffy finds out she'll be furious. And I am SUCH a dork!"

Date Posted: 13:25:09 12/13/01 Thu

Author: d'Herblay

Subject: Re: Season Four dialogue thingy (Something Blue, Hush, Doomed, A New Man)

In reply to:MrDave's message, "Re: (Wild at Heart, the Initiative, Pangs) By Popular request" on 13:25:09 12/13/01 Thu

Dawn half-skipped as they walked downtown. "So, Buffy's been ignoring me to sleep with Spike, who I don't think she really loves, she's just using him. And Spike must be caught up in her spell 'cause he's been ignoring me too, which is almost worse. And now they're listening to Cordelia, who's never done nothing in her life but ignore me. She says the Monks didn't give her any memories, but the entire time she lived in Sunnydale she was like 'What should I wear? Something red or something green? Buffy has a sister? That's nice. Maybe something blue. I know! Something short and tight and slutty!'"

Tommy touched his wounded shoulder.

"Oh my God, I'm sorry. Do you want to go to a hospital?"

"No, it's just a flesh wound. It's not like you drove that thing into my heart or anything."

"I didn't? And I thought I was getting stronger. Anyway, and what is she saying she didn't know Buffy died? Wasn't she paying any attention when Willow took the bus to L.A. and told her? I heard that she had just gone through a big break-up, but still. I'm beginning to think that it's not really Cordelia at all, just an incredible simulacrum. 'Simulacrum,' I like that word. Tara got me one of those calendars."

Tommy stopped suddenly and turned towards her. "Hush a minute. I'd like to kiss you."

"Well, ok, but there's something I have to know first." She reached towards his neck.

"I shaved this week. Go on, feel how smooth my face is."

Her first two fingers found the groove on the side of his larynx. She closed her eyes so she could concentrate on the sensation. Thump-thump. She smiled, and her fingers stayed on his neck as it dipped towards her chin. She felt warmer, safer as he embraced her. Thumpity-thumpity as his lips met hers and hers met his and she wasn't sure what to do with her tongue but then she knew and tum-tum-tum-tum and it was the best feeling she ever knew.

And it was over. Dawn wiped her mouth with the back of her hand to hide her smile. "Arbor Day. 'Simulacrum' was Arbor Day."

Tommy loosened his embrace. "So," he said, "want to go to the Bronze?"

"The Bronze? Nothing ever happens there."


Back in the corner, Warren was saying, "And now you've got a real bad beer. Was it worth the wait?"

Jonathan looked into his mug. "I can't believe they wouldn't take my I.D. and I have to drink this O'Douls crap."

"Well, did you really expect them to believe that you look like a Rodrigo Obregon?"

"We should add that to the master plan," said Andrew. "Step fourteen: better fake I.D.s."

Jonathan pulled his head up and nodded towards the front. "Looks like there's trouble."

Teenagers ran screaming from the front door as several large creatures entered the club. They were six feet tall and nearly as broad in the shoulders, and their faces were nothing but clicking mandibles and waving antennae and large, grayishly iridescent eyes, multifaceted like smoky jewels. They dragged flat abdomens behind them as the steel-toed boots on their hind-most legs crossed the floor. Two sets of arms emerged from the chain-mail coated thoraces. They carried spears and axes with blades shaped like French curves. Their exoskeletons were ruddy and their eyes spoke of blood and anger.

From the back doors emerged a cadre of blue-robed things. Thin and ethereal, they seemed well over seven feet tall. The robes had no arms and touched the floor as they just glided along smoothly, no rustling to betray the movement or even existence of legs. Their faces were blank, lost in mist except for seven small reddish glints of light deep in the blackness. Occasionally a thin something would flick out of one of their cowls, as if tasting the air.

Jonathan tightened his fist around the handle of the mug. "Guys, it looks like a lot of these people are doomed. Think we should do something?"

Warren shrugged. "We're super-villains. We can talk to these people, er . . . these insects and, I don't know, strange faceless hovercrafts. Andrew, you got any idea what these things are?"

"No. I don't think they're human."

Warren slapped the back of Andrew's head. "Yeah, they're not human. Thanks a lot, Little Stevie Hawking. As if Sunnydale was frequented by men wearing rubber suits."

Jonathan shrank back against the wall. "Whatever they are, they don't look friendly. I'd like to reiterate the 'doomed' idea."

Across the room, a group of the armored ant-lions had surrounded a table. One of the teenagers in the middle started to change. He sprouted another set of arms and his bones extruded themselves and melted to coat the outside of his muscles. He had metamorphosed into one of the insectoid demons.

"Dude," said Warren. "I think they're recruiting."

Next to the pool table one of the blue-robed things spoke to a Hemery High linebacker. "Pir who do you believe pir is the Slayer's destiny?"

The football player looked at him blankly, all the time testing the weight of the cue in his hand. "Slayer? What's a slayer?"

"A pir newbie! Newbies must pir die!" And a long tentacle wrapped itself around the jock's neck. Before the football player could even try to use the cue as a weapon, he was pulled, struggling, into the hood of the specter's robe.

"On the other hand," said Warren, "I could go with 'doomed.'"

One of the insects approached their table. The metallic clanging of its mandibles resolved itself into a mechanically inflected English. "Who sha'i is the Slayer's one true love?"

A blue robe silently glided to join them. "With whom is it her pir destiny to be forever entwined?"

Warren cocked his head. "Buffy? Well obviously, with me."

Jonathan said, "Or me."


Warren and Jonathan both turned to Andrew. "Dude," said Warren, "did someone cast a spell and make you a chick? Spike? That soulless retro retread?"

"Well, he's got that coat, and cool hair and that accent."

Warren shook his head. "No, the only person for Buffy is me. Or maybe that Faith chick she used to hang around with."

As the insect regarded him with interest, Andrew continued, "Plus, we're both thin blond guys, so I can identify with him. And sure he doesn't have a soul, but he has a chip and his love for Buffy puts him on the road to redemption. Sha'i."

Warren reached across the table. "Dude! Do not do a Goldblum on me!"

But it was too late; the metamorphosis had begun. Andrew started to grow taller and broader. "And he is redeemable sha'i. Somewhere within him is William the poet. He's the most romantic sha'i figure in Sunnydale." The second pair of arms had emerged, and Andrew was forced forward as his abdomen grew long behind his legs. The other insect handed him an axe. "And sha'i they have great sha'i chemistry."

"Whatever, dude. I'm saying Buffy and Jessica Alba. Theirs is a true and forbidden love." Warren looked sullenly at his formerly human friend.

The blue robed specter spoke up. "Pir that is so not cool."


The first insect waggled his antennae. "Sapphic love is a sha'i beautiful expression of love and intimacy between two people. It does not sha'i exist for your casual enjoyment."

"Whatever. Now Buffy and Denise Richards, that would be a beautiful expression. I don't understand why she always has to be with the vampires. Is it something with the oral fixation?"

Jonathan looked over to him. "You weren't around while Angel was still in Sunnydale. You never really saw the two of them together. They had a perfect story, heartbreaking in its tragic dimensions. Living just for each other but doomed to be kept apart."

"Dude, will you stop saying 'doomed'? We got it already."

"Will you stop saying 'dude'?" retorted Jonathan.

"The truth, dude? You suck. Heartbreaking tragedy my ass. If he cared so much about Buffy, why'd he leave? What Buffy needs is a night with one of the girls from Dream. Not the one who can actually sing, but any of the others. Or all three of them. Either way, I'm happy."

"Buffy and Angel. You just felt for those two. The vampire with a soul and the woman he loved but couldn't touch. Spike is nothing but sex and witty banter. There's nothing real there. Pir. Oh, God."

Jonathan's lips started to extend and protrude into tentative tentacles as his face pockmarked itself, growing new eye sockets. His hands and legs just started to fade, becoming one with the air around.

"Cowl this pir!" yelled the specter.

A blue robe was thrown over Jonathan before his torso had evaporated completely, before it was revealed what new structures had grown within him.

Warren backed against the wall. He grabbed Jonathan's mug and began to brandish it. He punctuated his sentences with dramatic waves as he said, "Either way, she's loving a vampire. And what's the point of that? She's just going to get old and sooner or later they're going to get evil. Now, you want to know who Buffy should be with? That chick from Cruel Intentions."

"Selma Blair?" asked the now ethereal Jonathan.

"Reese Wither-sha'i-spoon?" asked the first insect.

"No, the other one. Sarah Michelle something. Gellar, that's it. Buffy. Sarah Michelle Gellar. Me in my easy chair with a bowl of popcorn watching some hot lesbian action. And for those keeping score at home, that's 'lesbian' spelled with a z. Can I hear an amen?"

Andrew swung the axe through Warren's waist, bisecting him as Jonathan pulled his upper body into the dark recesses of his robe. Warren's hips and legs fell useless to the Bronze floor.

"Tasty," said Jonathan.

Andrew waggled an antenna. "I feel sha'i like a new man."

Before he had finished the thought he was pushed forward into the table. Pretzels flew as the other insect started forward and was met with Andrew's axe between his eyes. Jonathan threw out a tentacle which just provided something for him to be pulled forward by. He collapsed and was kicked in the region of the robe where his solar plexus might have been. The first specter glided silently away in retreat.

"You look like a new bug. Consider me your windshield," said Buffy.

(Next: "The I in Team"; "Goodbye Iowa"; "This Year's Girl.")
[> [> [> [> C'mon, people! Only 74 more episodes to go! -- d'Herblay, 04:39:22 12/14/01 Fri

If we hurry we can finish before they start making more.

(Next: "The 'I' in Team"; "Goodbye, Iowa"; "This Year's Girl.")
[> [> [> [> [> Er . . . 42. -- d'Herblay, 04:41:38 12/14/01 Fri

I thought that sounded like a lot . . . what can I say? Don't let me do math before 8 am.
[> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) -- Brian, 09:47:35 12/14/01 Fri

Buffy emerges from the Bronze covered with green goop and other assorted nasty colors mixed in. Spike stumbles out behind her, also looking the worse for wear.

Spike: Well, I guess we showed them that there's no I in team work, eh, Slayer?

Buffy: I really didn't appreciate the help, Spike. I was doing very well on my own.

Spike: Give it a rest, Slayer. If I hadn't ripped the leg off that blue creature, you would have kissed your curvy, and might I say, delectable butt goodbye.

Buffy: (with exasperation) Iowa, Why could I have been born in Iowa, then I wouldn't have to put up with your comments.

Spike snuggles up to Buffy. All those fluids kind of squish together. It's not a pretty sight or sound. He wipes the green goop off her lips and gives her a hard kiss. Buffy responds.

Buffy: Darn you, Spike, and your sinister attraction. I suppose I'm just this year's girl to you.

Spike: No, Pet, never. You're my one and only, forever.

Next:Who are you, Superstar, Where the Wild things are
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) -- GreatRewards, 15:47:09 12/14/01 Fri

Eps: Who are you, Superstar, Where the Wild things are

(Meanwhile, back at the Magic Box)

Xander: Anya, baby, we need to talk.

Anya: Why? Can't we just have sex, instead? You always want to talk.

Xander: Well, because we already did the "no talking" episode back in... never mind. Come, sit her beside me.

(phone rings)

Anya: (chipper as can be) "Magic Box. We've got your Magic in... a... box. I'm still working on that. Who are you and what do you want?"


Anya: (staring at receiver) They hung up. I wanted to sell them something, but they hung up. That's just super!

Xander: Star-69, em, An. That'll teach 'em to hang up!

Anya: Nah. I'm not in the mood now. But I am in the mood to have the sex. Let's go to your parent's basement now. Remember? That's where the wild...

(Dawn enters)

Xander (thinking quickly): ...things are roaming the jungle! Yes, South America. We should go there sometime. To see the wild... things... there... roaming. (sigh)

*Next: New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor, Primeval
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4)New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor, Primeval -- Brian, 09:22:10 12/15/01 Sat

Meanwhile, Oz has returned to see Willow and try to set things right.

Oz: Hi, Willow, I'm back as of right now.

Willow: Oh, Oz, it's really nice to see you, but I noticed the sun is setting, have you got your wolf under control?

Oz: Sure, Willow, I went back to those pesky monks, and got my chi re-aliened. I'm a wolf free guy right now. Besides, tonight has a new moon rising. No worries about becoming a werewolf.

Willow: Well, if that's so, how come your ears are getting all hairy, and my, I never realized how big your teeth...are getting.

Oz: (as he turns into a werewolf) Run. Run, right now!

Willow runs, and Oz starts to chase her, but he trips and falls into an open manhole. Willow runs down the main street, and sees the movie theater.

Willow: Ah, he'll never find me at this movie. Oz knows I don't like the Beatles, and a documentary called The Yoko Factor is just the cover I need to hide.

Willow buys a ticket and enters the movie.
Fade to her seating in her seat, munching on popcorn. Oz, back in his human form, sits down next to her.

Oz: Sorry, Willow about going all primeval on you.

Willow: That's all right, Oz. And although you smell kind of skanky right now, I'm sure a shower at my place would solve that. You know, I've been thinking that I'm not really gay. I think I'm really bi. You want to go back to my room right now.

Oz: Right now?

Willow: Right now!

As they rise, the movie screen fades to black.

NEXT: Restless, Buffy vs Dracula, Real Me
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) Restless, Buffy vs Dracula, Real Me -- MrDave, 18:34:34 12/16/01 Sun

Tommy looked a little restless as he and dawn walked down the street. "Are you in a hurry?" asked Dawn.

"Nah, its just a little chilly tonight. And I don't want to be out on the street too long. This IS Sunnydale."

Dawn caught the subtle hint and picked up the pace. As they rounded the corner to theBronze, they saw a very gooey Spike and Buffy wandering out the door.

"Eww. What were you doing? Filming Buffy VS the Swamp Creatures?" asked Dawn.

Spike muttered, "We already did Buffy vs Dracula and Buffy vs the Wolfman."

If looks could kill, Buffy's would have killed spike deader than usual. "You are in a load of trouble, young lady, when we get home..." Buffy stopped mid sentance. There it was again. Her mothers voice coming out of her mouth. "Its like I'm not the real me," she thought.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) The Replacement, OOMM, No Place Like Home -- GreatRewards, 10:54:35 12/17/01 Mon

Next: The Replacement,Out of My Mind,No Place Like Home

(and back to the Magic Box)

Xander: Hey An, where should I put this funny looking head-shaped demony thingy?

Anya: I love it when you use technical talk. Put it over there. Placement is EVERYTHING in the retail business.

Xander: An, I'm concerned. You're devoting more and more of your time to this store, and less and less of it to moi! If it weren't just a brick building with windows and a door, I'd feel a little jealous!

Anya: Fine! If you don't want my business to be successful, so be it. C'mon, let's go. Let's just have sex right here on the floor! Hot, hard, steamy, monkey-love SEX! C'mon big boy! This is what you want, right? This is all I am to you, right! Let me just get out of my...

Xander: Mind you, this is kinda turning me on, An, no doubt about it... but don't you think you oughta help the customers standing at the register first?

Male Customer: I can wait.

Anya & Xander (in unison): Shut up!

(Male Customer storms out)

Anya: Now look what you've done!

Xander: I've done?? I'm not the one who tried to re-enact a scene from Boogie Nights in front of the customers!

Anya: I'm sorry. You're right. I don't know what's gotten into me lately. I just feel like I'm losing control sometimes. Why don't we close up shop early today and go home? We can have a nice candlelit dinner and then we can have sex!

Xander: (sigh) There's no place like home!

Next Eps: Family; Fool For Love; Shadow
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) oops -- MrDave, 18:38:11 12/16/01 Sun

Next: The Replacement,Out of My Mind,No Place Like Home
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Dialogue Thingy (Season 4) oops -- Brian, 04:16:10 12/21/01 Fri

Xander: on the phone:

No, Tony, The replacement for that broken wall is not Buffy's responsibility. I won't take it out of her pay. Let's call it the result of flawed raw materials. What? NO, I'm not out of my mind! Trust me, this is Sunnydale. We can make this concept work without it costing us extra. (Anya enters wearing next to nothing, with that look in her eye.) Hey, Tony, let's talk about this on Monday. I gotta go. Bye. (Sometime later in the darkened bedroom. Xander sighs) There's no place like home.

Next: Family, Fool for Love, Shadow
OT, but very relevant to many inquiries on this board... -- A8, 18:56:45 12/13/01 Thu

...regarding the origins of certain religious traditions and beliefs is a site I discovered the other day. If you are interested in the history and traditions of Judaism and Christianity, there is a site dedicated to the accurate reconstruction of the historical records of these two faiths. Almost everything from Santa to Satan is discussed here. The founder of the site is a local (SF Bay Area) professor of religious studies.

If you are interested the address is:
[> Re: OT, but very relevant to many inquiries on this board... -- Even FURTHER OT, but good anyway...;), 14:45:09 12/14/01 Fri

Did you hear the one about the Devil worshipper with dislexia?

He sold his soul to Santa.
[> [> Reminds me of that great Bart Simpson line... -- A8, 17:00:04 12/14/01 Fri

...about how everyone should get back to the true meaning of Christmas--celebrating the birth of....Santa.
Religious question/proposed scene -- Simon A., 19:00:47 12/13/01 Thu

It has occured to me that while we have established that holy water and crosses affect vampires. (and evidence in "doppleganger" suggests that the vampires former religion is irrelevent), we haven't seen the effect of the blessed objects of other religions.

(willow is talking to spike as he stands outside doorway)

Willow: "I'm not going to invite you in, so say whatever you need to say out there."

(spike leans nonchalantly in the doorframe, and puts his hand against the doorpost)

Spike: "Well red, I..."

(sound of burning flesh)

Spike:(shaking hand in air) "Hey! you could warn a fellow before you put one of those up Rosenberg!"
[> so whatīs the question? -- grifter, 06:50:32 12/14/01 Fri

[> A better question to ask... -- The Last Jack, 07:15:51 12/14/01 Fri

A better question to ask is why Willow, a Jew, uses a cross (a symbol of a faith she doesn't believe in) instead of a Jewish Star of David
[> Re: Religious question/proposed scene -- maddog, 08:33:05 12/14/01 Fri

I'm doubting it could be "just any religious artifact"...remember in Who Are You when Adam has his group of vamps holding the people hostage in church? There have to be tons of religious things in there and the vamps weren't effected one bit.
[> [> Re: Religious question/proposed scene -- Simon A., 14:00:00 12/14/01 Fri

They (religious artifacts) mostly seem to affect vampires only if they're touched. I' m not sure that they swoon from crosses to a greater degree than you or I would swoon from a torch or red hot iron. I put Willow's use of a cross down to inexperience and lack of research. (in re. a different post) In extremis you go with what you KNOW will work. I tend to believe that it is the blessedness(a form of religions enchantment anyone?) of the object rather than the actual shape which is effective. It is not my understanding, (although being an atheist I really wouldn't know) that star of David's are not really used in a religious context, more as a service mark for Judiasm. The ten commandments are sometimes used in this way, but are graphicly twitchier, as well as also followed (well, given lip service to) by Christians.

My suspicion is that in the Whedonverse a mezuzah (or tefflin (sp?)) would be as effective as a blessed cross or holy water at putting welts on vampires. My little scene was an attempt to show how the writers could establish that if they chose to.
[> [> [> Re: Religious question/proposed scene -- MrDave, 20:07:10 12/16/01 Sun

Any church service can be considered a "ritual" in which wine and bread are magickally transformed into something else (there does seem to be some argument as to what). And Sanctifying something is a ritual to purify that something to the service of the Lord.

Not every Christian would see it that way. Magick is something external and scary, but the fact of the matter is that a prayer is a form of spell/incantation and that crosses, holy water, and sanctified elements (bread and wine) carry power in the Buffyverse.

Since the Jewish tradition doesn't have the same kinds of fetishistic symbolism in its religion you would be hard pressed to get much of a rise with a Star of David, but an Ephod? or better yet an honest to God Torah Scroll would likely light a vamp up like a bonfire.

In a Muslem Church there are NO symbols that I know of, and I am even less sure about Hindu, Shinto, Buddhist, or Taoist religions. But Christians are full of the "this has the power of God" and so they are both convenient and plentiful.

Any Roman Catholic church will let you in to get Holy Water. Blessed crosses are available by the case at Christain Bookstores. Holy oil (which can be ritually applied to anything to make it Holy) can be obtained but it is pretty expensive and might take some explaining to acquire.

Any Christian worth his salt can pray to the Lord to empower something (as Christ called ALL of us to be his Ministers...) but that is probably hit-or-miss. So why not use the cheapest, most available materials?

In a high-volume business like Sunnydell, you couldn't afford to be Hymie the Vampire Slaying Rabbi.
[> [> [> [> I thought it was the "faith" behind objects, not the objects themselves, that held the "power"... -- RH, 10:45:47 12/17/01 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Re: "faith" behind objects, not the objects themselves... -- MrDave, 23:34:04 12/17/01 Mon

It is Faith that embues objects with power, not what maintains it. It is the belief that the power of the divine can be harnessed that has lead us to beleive that objects can hold power at all.

It should be that our faith that the divine will hold when we need it. Practice would contradict that idea. Why else would consecration, baptism, blessings, and ordinations be one-time rituals? Multiple baptisms do not make one more saved, and multiple ordinations do not make priests more Holy. Once imbued with Holy power, the power remains.

Nonetheless, the one who channels the power (through the ritual) MUST have faith otherwise the ritual holds no meaning (and therefore no obligation by the divine to honor the request). Unlike magic where even a casual observer can weild terrific power (witness Xander summoning Sweet in OMWF), divine "magick" is a function of faith.

(and now for a really scandalous remark). "The Dark side is quicker. Easier. more seductive".--Yoda

Not that I beleive that anyone who practices magick is evil. But I do see it as an easy path. Faith takes work. Magick takes practice. Willow is a perfect example. She decided to "fight fire with fire" drawing on supernatural forces in her role as support for Buffy. If she had faith in herself and her God she might have been a lot more potent weapon agains the forces of evil.

Just an observation. Faith is sort of a vague concept in the Jossverse. It really seems to be in short supply (even shorter than it is in the "real world"). With so little source material on Faith in BtVS and AtS I can only draw on my personal experiences with both magick and faith to draw these conclusions.
Who Watches The Watchers? (part 1 of 2) -- MrDave, 20:10:26 12/13/01 Thu

There has been some discussion about the Watchers and their role in the Buffy Mythology. The shadowy glimses that the ME team has given us suggest that they are an international and potentially huge organization whose sole purpose appears to be the direction and control of the Slayer in her various incarnations.

If I might suggest another picture (supported by references of course) hat might better show why you need so many people to support one single "little girl".

The Watchers are a secret Society akin to the Illumanati and the Freemasons. They have rituals, passwords, and have inner-circles of select membership. There are committees within their organization that deal with specific issues that are of concern to the Watchers. We have been introduced to their Wet-Work committee, and their Tests and Measures group and it is assumed that there is some sort of pre-slayer Training group and Slayer oversight group as well.

Membership must carry some sort of fiscal tithe as well, else how could the Watcher's Council maintain salaries for its senior members, and its Slayer-Watchers? Tithing in a secret society is a more ancient practice that has been largely replaced with bake-sales and county fairs in modern times.

While the Freemasons have been accused of harboring Jack the Ripper and starting World Wars, most of its membership could hardly be considered devious, duplicitous or even more than a fraternal order. I have to assume that the Watchers are somewhat the same way. Their membership is international with chapters in far corners of the world, and few members who are privy to the "true" council and its real purpose.

Occasionally, some bright member of a "Fraternal Order of Watchers" might see something that resonates with one of his weekend rituals (Followed by a Bake Sale and Car Wash). Some watered down incantation about "The Chosen One" and reports it to his superior. This information would make its way back to the Inner Circle, and a "Prefect" or "Canter" might be dispatched from Watcher's HQ to the backwater to investigate. Hence the need for a large infrastructure, there is a lot more backwater than most of us realize.

This whole picture paints an image of another (semi) fictional organization: The Talamasca. Described in Anne Rice's Wtches series the Talamasca is an international Secret Society (modeled loosley on the Rosicrucians) that sought "to show that the study of natural science led to direct knowledge of God. 'As above, so also below,' the quest to see the macrocosm as a mirror of the microcosm, became the mantra of these quasi-spiritual/quasi-empirical studies. " But in this fictional universe instead found "phenomena such as witches, spirits, werewolves, and, of course, vampires. Welcoming people with paranormal powers to visit them, occasionally they become aware of individuals with particularly strong powers, these people are investigated and offered a place with their group, but are not obliged to accept the position, though almost invariably they will."

[> Re: Who Watches The Watchers? (part 2 of 2) -- MrDave, 20:12:16 12/13/01 Thu

The Watchers have shown us that they are full of mystical talents. Wesley, Giles, and many members of the Tests and Measures Committee have demonstrated an advanced knowledge of Magick, and it only stands to reason that there must be at least a couple of non-humans among the Watchers (although they would never be full members). They likely see this as a "neccesary evil" in that they are defending Humanity against the Forces of Darkness.

I imagine the Watchers can trace their origins to Ancient Egypt (as the Talamasca and the Rosicrucians do) but were more likely formed in the late 16th century (like the Talamasca and the Rosicrucians were) as a response to the intrigues and uncertainties surrounding the Reformation (starting 1517) and Counter-Reformation (starting 1547) in Europe. With the established political structure, mystical structure and general societal structure being thrown into turmooil, a Secret Society presented a solid, unchanging, and safe haven for the aristocracy. It was a support group that had to be trusted (lest you expose thier secret, and they yours) and so could be counted on to smuggle you out of whichever country that was crying for your head that week. This tradition of mutual support is carried on the the "Skull and Bones" fraternity today.

Where did they get involved with the Slayer? That has not been revealed, but I would have to believe that it was probably shortly after the formation of the Society. These societies spread quickly across Europe (there was a LOT of displaced aristocracy) and likely encountered a young, by vampire years, Dracula (sired 1470) who is making waves and likely attracting a Slayer. Three such occurances (shades of the Tro-Clan from AtS) at roughly the same time in roughly the same place would have turned the metaphysical world upside-down. By my recconing that would almost have to be 1618 -- The beginning of the Thirty Years War.

To recap: The Watchers bear more than a little superficiality to the Great Secret societies of Europe. These societies, formed in the 16th century were a result of the Reformation which ended just prior to the beginning of the 17th Century. By this dating, the nearest supernatural influence would have been Vlad Dracul. Vlad would have been a perfect target for a Slayer. Putting the three togeher would (roughly) coincide with the beginnings of the Thirty Years War...a religious conflict that could have easily had apocolytic metaphysical undertones in a fictional setting like the Buffyverse.

Hope this may explain some of the methodologies and origins of the Watcher's Council, and why there seem to be so many of them who all seem devoted to the care and feeding of a supercharged teenager.

Submitted humbly, MrDave
[> [> Re: Who Watches The Watchers? (afterthought) -- MrDave, 21:07:56 12/13/01 Thu

Someone posted (Way down there) about the Fray comic book in which the origin of the Slayer is linked to Shamans who created her with a spell. These shamans are said to have evolved into the Watcher's Council. Since Joss is writing Fray, I wanted to link this idea to the prior essay with some additional observations.

Anne Rices says that Talamasca "literally means animal mask, and it's an old, old name used for a sorcerer who wears an animal mask, or a shaman who wears an animal mask." I beleive that while Shamans could have done such a thing (after all, if spells couldn't last thousands of years, then things like "The Key" couldn't exist either), that the Watcher's Council is only using the association with the Buffyverse Talamasca to strengthen their authority to control the Slayer.

There is precedent for this kind of association, modern day Druids (another Secret Society with roots in the 18th century) claim to be practicing an ancient form of worhip that extends into ancient times. In fact, the modern Neo-Paganism (also Pantheistic) movement was founded by Jon Toland in England in 1697 (he even coined the phrases neo-paganisism and pantheism).

So while the story may go that the shamans yadda yadda...the fact may be that these Watchers have told the same lie for so long that they actually beleive it.
[> [> [> Re: Who Watches The Watchers? (afterthought) -- Eric, 23:00:31 12/13/01 Thu

A thoughtful essay indeed. However, I think that their mystery may have worked some influence over your speculation. The Watcher's Council has never indicated that it is such a huge or moderately sized secret society. Indeed, it is normally very speciallized in monitering vampiric activity, finding and training Slayers, and maybe some periphrial magic studies. It seems more likely its power base is concentrated in the UK since, with one exception all Watchers and their agents are British. It merely has contacts and agents over seas similar to any moderately funded intelligence agency. If they had any real influence outside the U.K. I'm sure they would have used it to greater effect. Another odd bit about the Council is that while it has many agents, only a few people are called to be Watchers. In a secret society members are expected and expect to participate emotionally in activities and rites. If most are automatically excluded (except for trips to America to pick up psychotic Slayers) what can be the attraction?

I suspect that the Watcher's Council is a close knit group of occult scholars. They probably aren't very large, but enjoy high degrees of magickal protection. They have agents and Watchers overseas and in the traditions of Her Majesty's Secret Service, rely on talented amateurs for their intelligence. They probably do have some influence within the both the British government bureaucracy and legislative branches - especially the House of Lords. Financing for such an organization would be from archeological and scholarly grants, contributions from grateful vampire attack survivors, and perhaps phony charities. Since they're fighting the good fight over the long term, they probably have a succession of long term investments to tide them through the next few centuries at least. But in the end they're still scholars. They rely on the Slayers as their primary response to any Big Bad. And aside from raising, training, and annoying them aren't much good for anything else.

Now that being said, its possible that the Council is part of a larger conspiracy. I mean really, of all the things that go bump in the night in the Buffyverse, why specialize in vampires? Because of this its entirely likely that the Watchers Council is really a sub section (possibly neglected or forgotten) of a larger organization. It might be a historically known secret society such as the Freemasons,Rosecrucians, Illuminati or an even more ancient one. If the Council truly is as ancient as described in Frey, it might have drifted through history deriving patronage from different organizations through time. In Greco Roman times it may have been sponsored by the Cult of Diana in the West, trading caravans in the Near East, and assorted Buddhist sects in the Far East. In modern times it may be part of the Angelican Church or perhaps the Druids. During the World War British intelligence discovered Hitler's pre occupation with the occult and tried to turn it against him with various operations. Perhaps the Council climbed on that gravy train and never got off. Regardless, if they are part of a larger society and conspiracy, they aren't calling all the shots except within their own domain.
[> [> [> [> Ask McLeod, he knows all about the Watchers. ;-) -- MBoone, 01:14:51 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> The Watcher's Council and some words on the British Empire -- darrenK, 08:52:20 12/14/01 Fri

While I think this is a rich topic, I also think that like many plot pieces Joss has left them obscured so as not to box him in for future plotlines.

The Watcher's council has never been too much more than a source of humor and frusteration within the Buffy storyline and from everything we've seen, it appears that it is an organization in decline.

While it may try to handle many of the functions that you describe, I think that it does so from a point of view that is both myopic and academic. I think that they are decreasingly effective and don't even really know it.

You've said in your message that you don't believe the Watcher's Council to be an ancient organization, but instead one claiming the mantle of an ancient organization.

I very strongly disagree. For one thing, there's no evidence of this. Second, it's too complicated. The effect this strange deception would have on the plot of the show would be too subtle and, truthfully, irrelevant. Buffy would be breaking free of their grip regardless and the question of whether or not the Council is a pretender organization would only serve to be confusing and wouldn't change the ultimate outcome of Buffy's dealings with them.

Also it's much more powerful thematically for Buffy to be the first slayer in thousands of years to break free of the Council's grip.

This still leaves room for them to have changed so much that they hardly appear to be the same organization, but I'm sure we'll see more about this in Joss' Tales of the Slayer and, of course, in the Brit-o-centric BBC Ripper series.

The council's attitude is definitely not that of an organization only pretending to have the authority to control the Slayer. Instead, the Council seems to claim an almost divine right to do so. They seem to feel that they OWN the Slayer, the attitude of an organization that feels that they made her.

Their attitude is also that of an organization in decline. It wreaks of decay. They don't understand why they don't have the authority that they used to. This definitely points to their have ancient roots no matter how they've metamorphosed.

Not to mentioned that Joss himself has written in Fray that the shamen who created the Slayer are the ancient ancestors of the Council.

The question of how they got to Britain is interesting, but Britain is a perfect place for them. And I would suspect that their operation was concentrated there in the post-Elizabethian era as Britain became the world's foremost sea and merchant power.

British shipping would give them a way to travel the world. By infiltrating the great British merchantile companies, the Watcher's could have representatives in most of the world. And, of course, the British educational system would allow them to maintain their ranks with an educated elite who would not seem out of place in among the cloistered Oxbridge academics.

Not to mention that with the exception of a few Stuart led insurrections, Britain has been stable for that entire era.

And as the British Empire developed, the British controlled and had a an organized presence in 3/4 of the world, on every populated continent and in many of the ancient lands that would have sprung the shamen Joss talks about. By inflitrating the British colonial service, Watcher's could be posted on most of the Earth to track demonic activity and track potential Slayers.

Interestingly, the decline of the Watcher's Council and their capabilities, parallels the decline of the British Empire. If the Council had grown accustomed to the life of Colonial bureaucrats with their expectation of power and notion of superiority, it's easy to see why the Council has become the way that it is.

And I don't think it's a coincedence that Council's old-fashioned and increasingly ineffective methods are directly contrasted with the small, agile Internet empowered cell that backs up our Buffy.

Coda: Those who have had the extraordinary pleasure of a few days at the British Museam know that it boasts the world's largest collection of ancient artifacts, including many objects dating from ancient Egypt, Kenya, etc. A perfect research facility for a pre-Internet group that has to maintain ancient knowledge about almost every culture on Earth.
[> [> [> [> Wonderful theory Darren!! -- Rahael, 09:33:42 12/14/01 Fri

I hadn't thought about it in that sense before, but I enjoyed your explanation tremendously. As for when they got to Britain ....couldn't we make a link with the Romans? The first little outpost in the north, which grew stronger as the Roman branch faded? If you're looking for the start of a bureaucratic organisation, I think Rome would be great. The Reformation might have led to some difficulties with other parts of Europe....hmmm - what a topic: the effect of the Reformation on the world wide attempt to fight the undead.

Anyways, back to your theory - I think it makes perfect sense. Remember Giles' comment: Damn colonials! I think its almost certain that Joss had this in mind when he created the characters of Giles and Wesley, who are both the kind of people reputed to populate the British civil service (and they do!!) and who belong to the traditional Oxbridge-y estasblishment.

I can imagine Watchers Council Head office being run by Sir Humphrey.

And as for Oxford, it always seemed spooky that two heretics were burnt on Broad Street, right outside where Blackwells is now...I always had a Buffy moment when I walked past, and also whenever I came across musty old books about witchcraft in the Radcliffe Camera (this is how addicted I am - I always opted for Gilesian topics for my essays. Malleus Maleficarum anyone?) I hope they do a little scene with Giles in the Old Bodleian in the new series.
[> [> [> [> Re: The Watcher's Council and some words on the British Empire -- MrDave, 17:58:21 12/16/01 Sun

You have some great points, and I'd like to comment on some of them While I think this is a rich topic, I also think that like many plot pieces Joss has left them obscured so as not to box him in for future plotlines.

Yeah, but isn't it fun to speculate?

The Watcher's council has never been too much more than a source of humor and frusteration within the Buffy storyline and from everything we've seen, it appears that it is an organization in decline. While it may try to handle many of the functions that you describe, I think that it does so from a point of view that is both myopic and academic. I think that they are decreasingly effective and don't even really know it.

All "secret societies" are in decline. They serve the same purpose as Religious Organizations, and National Aid Societies (like the Robert Burns Societies, et al.) and other communityhe First Slayer, and the ritual that groups. They have lost their overall focus because of the pace of society. A bureocracy cannot move at the speed of a cell-based organization. The downside is that a cell-based group does not, by its nature, have the resources that the bureocracy does. Buffy and the Scoobies are a perfect Cell.

You've said in your message that you don't believe the Watcher's Council to be an ancient organization, but instead one claiming the mantle of an ancient organization.

I very strongly disagree. For one thing, there's no evidence of this. Second, it's too complicated. The effect this strange deception would have on the plot of the show would be too subtle and, truthfully, irrelevant. Buffy would be breaking free of their grip regardless and the question of whether or not the Council is a pretender organization would only serve to be confusing and wouldn't change the ultimate outcome of Buffy's dealings with them.

It isn't something I feel would EVER come up in the show. And you are absolutely correct in that it would never affect how Buffy deals with them, and how they deal with Buffy. What it DOES affect is some of the minor historical points that have come up along the way. The First Slayer and the ritual to tap into her power, or the Cruciamentum, and of course the 'divine' right that the Watchers claim over the Slayer. Its really an academic point, but like I started...its fun to speculate, eh?

> Also it's much more powerful thematically for Buffy to be the first slayer in thousands of years to break free of the Council's grip.

That is one I'll concede. It is. But there is another deeper story that might be more interesting to tell. Sort of a "Watcher's Diary" series that tells the stories of the Watchers of the past and the Slayers in their charge. How did the First Watcher meet the Slayer? How did he convince her that he was neccessary? How have the Watchers maintained their influence? Have other Slayers attempted to "go solo"? This was the meatier story I was trying to get at.

> This still leaves room for them to have changed so much that they hardly appear to be the same organization, but I'm sure we'll see more about this in Joss' Tales of the Slayer and, of course, in the Brit-o-centric BBC Ripper series.

I cannot wait. (Side note, Anyone know if this series will be broadcast on BBC America?)

> The council's attitude is definitely not that of an organization only pretending to have the authority to control the Slayer.

Instead, the Council seems to claim an almost divine right to do so. They seem to feel that they OWN the Slayer, the attitude of an organization that feels that they made her.


> Their attitude is also that of an organization in decline. It wreaks of decay. They don't understand why they don't have the authority that they used to. This definitely points to their have ancient roots no matter how they've metamorphosed.


> Not to mentioned that Joss himself has written in Fray that the shamen who created the Slayer are the ancient ancestors of the Council.

I addressed these points above and hit on the 'canon' of Fray in another thread.

The question of how they got to Britain is interesting, but Britain is a perfect place for them. And I would suspect that their operation was concentrated there in the post-Elizabethian era as Britain became the world's foremost sea and merchant power.

After the 30-years war, Britain became a refuge for a lot of religious misfits. The Anglican religion allowed for both Protestants and Catholics to worship as long as they deferred to the Throne of England. Many religious leaders took a 'render unto Caesar' attitude and used England (and the Netherlands) as a stopping-place before heading off the the US where they could practice a true religious freeedom. A group like the Watchers would have not been hampered by religious persecutions would have likely sought refuge from the war in England, and set up shop there. It is perfect for all the resaons you mention.

British shipping would give them a way to travel the world. By infiltrating the great British merchantile companies, the Watcher's could have representatives in most of the world. And, of course, the British educational system would allow them to maintain their ranks with an educated elite who would not seem out of place in among the cloistered Oxbridge academics.
I think you meant Oxford. Oxford University would have been perfect because it has always been a center of "academic over political" thinking. Many radical religious and societal ideas and theories have come from Oxford.

Not to mention that with the exception of a few Stuart led insurrections, Britain has been stable for that entire era.

And as the British Empire developed, the British controlled and had a an organized presence in 3/4 of the world, on every populated continent and in many of the ancient lands that would have sprung the shamen Joss talks about. By inflitrating the British colonial service, Watcher's could be posted on most of the Earth to track demonic activity and track potential Slayers.

They could have accomplished this as either Anglican Church Missionaries (there is a Seminary at Oxford), or Seafaring Traders. I would think that other cultures would have legends of "the Slayer" and might have been incorporated into the Watcher's Council as they were discovered. But, of course, in true Colonial Fashion their origins would have been Anglicised.

Interestingly, the decline of the Watcher's Council and their capabilities, parallels the decline of the British Empire. If the Council had grown accustomed to the life of Colonial bureaucrats with their expectation of power and notion of superiority, it's easy to see why the Council has become the way that it is.

And I don't think it's a coincedence that Council's old-fashioned and increasingly ineffective methods are directly contrasted with the small, agile Internet empowered cell that backs up our Buffy. No Argument. See my "Cell" comment above.

Coda: Those who have had the extraordinary pleasure of a few days at the British Museam know that it boasts the world's largest collection of ancient artifacts, including many objects dating from ancient Egypt, Kenya, etc. A perfect research facility for a pre-Internet group that has to maintain ancient knowledge about almost every culture on Earth.

I have seen it, and it would have been a marvelous source but I suspect that the Watchers probably have a collection that puts the British Museum to shame. I look at the collection of artifacts that Giles put out in his Magic Box store, and I am impressed at the variety and antiquity. He has to be drawing off his Watcher contacts to keep that place stocked. If they can afford to sell that stuff RETAIL, imagine the rare treasures they must keep to themselves!

Thanks for your comments, Darren!

[> [> [> [> [> hmmmmm -- Rahael, 06:16:43 12/17/01 Mon

I'm sure that Darren can come to his own defence and all that....but I am trying to up my posting rate here, and hey, I can answer two points!!

Oxbridge is a common conflation of 'the two universities', Oxford and Cambridge. Together they form the old boy network establishment that self-proclaims itself the intellectual and cultural heart of Britain (its not, of course - but that's quite the Watchers Council attitude). I think Cambridge would be quite offended if it were excluded from the equation.

And as for Britain being a haven for religious dissidents of Europe after the 30 years war? Britain in the 17th century is very different to Elizabethan England. It had been, to quote Marvell, 'cast into another mould'. Scotland under the presbyterians may have allowed the popish Charles II shelter, but there was no way that Catholics were tolerated at all in Parliamentary England. There was no such thing as 'Anglicanism' for the whole of the 17th century. Its an anachronism, a purely 19th century term. And England was fiercely anti Catholic - even up to the 18th Century where you have "No popery!" the Gordon Riots and so on. And far from rendering what was Caesar's unto Caeser, the English seemed to show an unfortunate predeliction for kicking Caesars who wouldn't comply with the Protestant majority off the the throne pretty sharpish. England in the early modern period is far from the calm, stable and ordered society it liked to see itself as. Even now, no Catholic is allowed to ascend the throne. And all Catholics and dissidents had to take an oath swearing conformity to the state religion, and attend mass before they were allowed to take public office throughout the 18th century. Which is why radical protestants and Catholics were excluded from power. Why was Manchester University (pretty old itself) set up? so that men who weren't members of the church of England could have a university education. You see, Oxford and Cambridge wouldn't admit them.

Read George Gissings' Born in Exile, or Thomas Hardy's Jude the Obscure to see why Oxbridge isn't quite the hotbed of radicalism and forward thinking.

What does this have to do with the Watchers Council, and Buffy......erm precisely nothing. But it does allow me to talk early modern history, so thanks so much, Mr Dave and DarrenK! This doesn't actually take anything away from the points you make. Unfortunately I seem to find religious and political thinking in early modern England slightly more fascinating then whether the Watcher's Council was a secret organisation or completely intertwined with the British establishment.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Watcher's Council and some words on the British Empire -- anom, 22:03:58 12/17/01 Mon

"Have other Slayers attempted to 'go solo'?"

I've been wondering about the 2nd Slayer Spike killed. Just how cooperative was an afro'ed Afro- American woman w/superstrength at the height of the Black Power era & the beginning of Women's Lib likely to have been w/an organization of old white men? @>) Maybe that was why Spike told Buffy, "She had a bit of your style." She also looked to be older than her early teens--maybe out of her teens--suggesting she'd survived a relatively long time as a Slayer. I'd love to know more about her--hope she'll show up in the Watchers' Diaries!
[> Re: Who Watches The Watchers? (part 1 of 2) -- cjc36, 07:51:23 12/14/01 Fri

Mr.Dave, great think-piece! I'm still scribbling a fan-fic novella centering on aspects of the Council and who's chosen and how and why, with a rogue, right-wing splinter group thrown in for the fun of it. Anyway, I always suspected a White Lodge kind of template with the Watchers.

Two of the ideas I focus on in my fic is this: 1) The Council had to change about 100 years ago. Why? Because before, when women didn't have rights and times were really sllllooowww, a Watcher could just kidnap his Slayer during or right before she is to be called, and spirit her off to Slayer's Academy. They treat their charges like disposable heroes. This changed when voting rights for women and modern society got more, well, moderney. Hard to go kidnap young women when there's government agencies out to stop you. Better just do it the hard way and make first contact. Which means they have to now wait until powers have presented themselves. The power emerging in the girl is the only proof the Watcher has that he is not ready for a stalking charge and a straight jacket.

My story has characters that liked it better the old way. Watcher fundamentalists, if you will.

And your post has helped me get back into the spirit of things, if you will. Thanks for the read!
Media project - can anybody help? -- Elaine, 06:27:23 12/14/01 Fri

Hey everyone - sorry to get all serious here - but i'm doing a Media project on Buffy - titled - 'How far can representations of Buffy the vampire slayer be seen as suitable for its intended audience?'. i'm mainly focusing on viewing times, sexual content, violence, etc. i would be grateful for any comments that anyone has? thanks, Elaine xxx
p.s I'm from the UK - and Buffy is aired at 6.45pm.
[> Search the 'Net -- Darby, 07:05:54 12/14/01 Fri

I just went to the search engine "Google" and put in the words "buffy vampire media watchdog" and got a couple of site reporting news on American organizations who think that Buffy is inappropriate for (fill in group name here).

You haven't said whether your task is to represent a cross-section of opinions or just your own (input from this board could be used either way, I suppose), but if it's the former, some creative searches will pick up lots of online reports. A number of websites with Buffy archives have similar reports stored as well.
[> Please explain =) -- Shul, 21:59:38 12/15/01 Sat

I believe your question might be to loose to properly answer. (How far can representations of Buffy the vampire slayer be seen as suitable for its intended audience?)

The question implies (to me at least) that a show can have only one target audience, & that said audience is intended.

How does your question take into account the possibility of multiple and/or changing target audiences?
For example lets say a late 17 yr old male started watching the series when it first came out and is now still watching BtVS, would he still be considered THE target audience or even any sort of target audience.

Furthermore we must keep in mind that shows such as BtVS do not usually have an exact "KING". Granted Joss is the boss, but his power is not absolute. It is impossible to tell exactly who the target audience is, unless perhaps you are approaching the question from a marketing department point-of-view.

I hope I can be of help, but i will help me greatly to know exactly what your asking =)
DOHHH....Iron Chef is on.....gotta run

"Im going to be a fireman when the floods roll back" -restless.
[> [> Re: Please explain =) -- E-lane, 10:29:35 12/16/01 Sun

i know the question isn't as tight as maybe it should be - but it's only a 3000 word a-level project. As for the target audience - as i am focusing on the time the BBC air the programme i am mainly focusing on what they consider to be the target audience - although i'm hoping to get input from satillite stations, and prehaps american networks.
p.s The BBC consider the target audience to be 18+, according to statement from a live online chat session.
Attention posters who've submitted new "Meet the Posters" profiles -- Masquerade, 06:48:08 12/14/01 Fri

I'm going to be getting to work on those over the next couple weeks, so don't fear I've forgotten them. Here are the submissions I have:

1. Bookworm
2. Mazumdar
3. cat
4. zooey
5. Annoying1
6. mrdave
7. squireboy

If you have an idea of a BtVS/AtS character you'd like to have represent you (who isn't already taken) let me know.
[> ooh, and matching mole, too -- M, 09:20:05 12/14/01 Fri

[> Here are pics I have available that are unclaimed -- Masq, 13:55:16 12/14/01 Fri

Billy (AtS)
Catherine (Amy's Mom)
Fordham, Billy "Ford"
Gavin Park
Grace (IOHEFY)
Marcus ("In the Dark")
Meltzer, Ronald
Monk (5th season)
Nabbit, David
Nun (I've Got You Under My Skin)
Ovu Mobani
Random rising Vampire
Rondell (Gunn's ex-friend)
Russel Winters
Ryan (I've Got You Under My Skin)
Sid the puppet
Sisterhood of jhe demon (The Zeppo)
Order of Taraka guy
The Judge
The Master
Tom (Reptile Boy)
Walsh, Maggie

If you don't remember who they are by name, do a search on my site:
[> [> sweet! may I have the Master, please? :) NT -- squireboy, 14:08:30 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> It's yours! -- M, 14:40:03 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> Derkinderstod would be great -- matching mole, 14:47:38 12/14/01 Fri

If that's OK. Thanks.

Is that really supposed to all be one word? I would have thought Der Kinderstod (i.e. the death of children if I haven't completely forgotten all my german).
[> [> [> Cool. And ewww. -- Masq, 15:04:13 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: Cool. And ewww. -- matching mole, 08:02:12 12/15/01 Sat

I seem to be generating that reaction a lot recently! Hopefully that was just a comment on my translation. I don't really identify with child destroying monsters. Just thought he/it looked cool in a Dickensian grotesque way.
[> [> [> [> [> Don't worry. It's all good. ; ) -- Masq, 10:24:15 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> Gotta go with Snyder! (Yeah, I'm an Armin Shimmerman fan)(NT) -- cat, 00:29:43 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> whistler would be great if he's not taken thanks MASQ -- zooey, 09:48:44 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> And Traveler gets Holtz -- Masq, 10:25:37 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> [> Go me! ^.^ -- Traveler, 13:51:07 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> Can I have Maggie Walsh? (NT) -- bookworm, 21:04:44 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> [> Okee Dokee -- Masq, 21:38:01 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> Re: I'll Take one of Two Davids -- MrDave, 22:12:00 12/15/01 Sat

Either David Nabbit from AtS (since everyone knows I am a "Dungeons and Drgons Billionare) or
David Fury (as seen in OMWF)(Since I too, got the Mustard out!)

When ya gotta theme ya stick with it ;)
[> I also have one from someone named "Sophie"?? -- Masq, 13:39:58 12/15/01 Sat

Fury's Rule, or "I Bet Ol' Davie's not Happy About Spike" -- AngelVSAngelus, 12:35:03 12/14/01 Fri

Would anyone happen to have any information regarding David Fury's opinion of the Spike/Buffy arc? I assume it has to be negative, if they're going to go through with those two having some sort of relationship, because not only does it conflict with his opinion of the soulless issue, but it sort of devalues the specialness of the character Joss gave him charge of, His Broodiness, Angel.
I personally share his perspective, and without being a Shipper of any kind would not very much enjoy a Buffy/Spike relationship. Spike fighting his nature because he likes her? Fine. Spike working alongside the Scoobies because he's got no other place? Cool. But Spike, Buffy's boyfriend? Tell me how unfair it is, for a soul-having warrior of light that saves souls (and the world sometimes) to atone for his past he feels remorse for to not be able to be with the one girl he's ever loved, and for an evil (*ahem* I'm sorry, good-action-performing vampire with no remorse) soul less being to become involved with her? Where's the Powers' intervention when you need it?
[> Have to say I'm with you on that... -- Masq, 12:59:31 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> *bows in humble awe in the presence of Masq* -- AngelVSAngelus, 13:02:46 12/14/01 Fri

Thankyou! Now THAT means alot.
[> [> [> Just thought I'd let you know I support you before the flaming started -- Masq, 13:59:56 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> [> *De-lurks* Me too, I totally agree :) *re-lurks* (NT) -- Wurlitzer, 14:24:23 12/14/01 Fri

[> One has the kid, the other has the girl, one has left, the other stayed. Take your pick. -- Stranger, 13:06:23 12/14/01 Fri

[> I can see your point -- Traveler, 13:37:15 12/14/01 Fri

However, BtVS certainly isn't a show about fairness. No, good guys don't always get the girl. Not eveybody gets what they deserve. Also, now that it has been established that Angel and Buffy can't be together, would you deny her happiness with someone else? Almost every man in Buffy's life has left her, including Angel, Giles, and her father. Angel and Giles both claimed to do it for her own good. At least Spike stayed, even when times were (or still are) rough between them. I believe that the idea of atonement for past sins is highly overated. Even if Spike is never redeemed, he can still have a positive influence on Buffy, and I would argue that he already has. Finally, I ask you, which has more poignant, bitter irony: a vampire with a soul falling in love with the slayer and having to leave because she makes him too happy, or a vampire without a soul falling in love with the slayer and being rejected because he makes HER too happy. (I.e., Buffy wouldn't need to reject Spike so harshly if she didn't have any feelings for him).
[> But who says that Buffy still has a soul? -- Brian, 13:50:17 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> so now the chip is a soul-detector? -- pretty funky tech NT -- squireboy, 14:04:26 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> The interesting thing is...... -- LadyStarlight, 07:21:45 12/15/01 Sat

that in either The Initiative or Pangs, Riley specifically says about Spike "He can't hurt any living thing."

Writing screw-up, or Initiative view of demons?
[> [> [> [> Re: The interesting thing is...... -- LoriAnn, 10:03:55 12/15/01 Sat

It's more likely that the Initiative took a very anthropocentric view: living things=human beings.
[> [> [> [> [> you say that like it's a *bad* thing *winks* -- squireboy, 00:27:09 12/16/01 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: The interesting thing is...... -- maddog, 17:20:16 12/16/01 Sun

Initiative view of demons...remember, they were studying demons for a reason, to learn more about I'd hardly call them experts. Besides, to them a demon was a differences...which we all know isn't true in Buffyverse.
[> Umm, point of order... -- Moose, 14:48:13 12/14/01 Fri

Angel was a murderer WITH a soul when he was with Darla.

As Buffy sarcastically said to Spike "Yes, because muggers deserve to be eaten."

His broodiness was evil with and without a soul and a crappy human to boot. That he is now being used by the powers, not really an issue. Spike may very well be being used by the PTB as well. He DID save Buffy from that fiery flash-dance in OMWF.

As for Buffy, she is kidding herself about having a normal life with a normal boyfriend. Even if she could get a normal boyfriend that would understand the slayer thing, he'd very likely get himself killed by some Big Bad looking to hurt the slayer. Spike can at least reasonably take care of himself (minus a god smacking him around), help her continue the good fight, and maybe give her a few more years of happiness before her clock is punched by some lucky vamp/demon/thingy.

Buffy needs to be challenged. Riley never challenged her. Angel worshipped her. Spike gets under her skin, and that is so much more interesting...
[> As Spike put it, "A man can change." -- bookworm, 15:11:01 12/14/01 Fri

Cut the poor vamp a little slack. So what if he backslides now and then and tries to eat someone? It's his nature. In all seriousness, I think Buffy is a lot more fun to watch with Spike than she was with Angel or Riley. He has a sense of humor. He has fun. We get to watch her kick his butt all over the room before they have sex and fighting is a lot of the fun of Buffy.
[> [> Re: As Spike put it, "A man can change." -- SugarTherapy, 21:14:40 12/14/01 Fri

I agree with Buffy & Spike being more fun to watch than Buffy and Angel. Someone mentioned on a D/A site how stifled Angel was when he was with Buffy. Think of the scenes when he wasn't with her - his witty threats w/ Willy, the little bits of his demon that he let slip, the lighter side of him. It was so rarely there with Buffy. He never joked w/ her, never played, and never grew a spine. Spike at least doesn't let Buffy hold him back too much. Of course she does to an extent, but that happens in any relationship. When they're together he's basically the same vamp as when they're apart, and he's not afraid to threaten or tease her, not afraid to piss her off like Angel was. I'm all for B/S. Definitely.

Sugar - shouldn't write when she's this tired
[> Re: Fury's Rule or "They Got the Mustard Out!" -- Aquitaine, 15:24:07 12/14/01 Fri

I honestly don't think any of the BtVS writers are going to come out and state their true feelings about the characters and the storylines. When they do 'speak', there is generally a very specific reason to do so, a not-so-hidden agenda, if you will. As far as I can gather, the show's writers actually work as a team to break each episode and the individual writers only control the manner in which the chosen actions take place.

As far as David Fury is concerned, I find him to be one of the wiliest foxes in the henhouse. He's sneaky and plays hardball... and I think I like it!

I also suspect the Buffybot was referring to him when she exulted: "You're the Big Bad! You're the Big Bad!"

[> [> And I thought I was the "Big Bad"............;) -- Rufus, 15:46:20 12/14/01 Fri

[> Angel LEFT her! That was no one's fault but his own. -- MayaPapaya9, 15:33:45 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> If Angel could be with Buffy, he would be -- Masq, 16:09:36 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> [> I'm not sure that's true anymore (even if he didn't have his own show) -- Dalie, 10:52:15 12/15/01 Sat

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure that's true anymore (even if he didn't have his own show) -- Spike Lover, 11:13:01 12/16/01 Sun

Have to agree with you there. When Angel was trying to help Faith (when she was running from the police), Buffy took it as a betrayal. Do you think she would have looked at it differently if she had found out that he had returned most willingly to Darla's bed, in effect not caring, and even hoping that he would once and for all be freed from his soul?

I don't think Buffy would have overlooked that little ditty, and you notice that the next time she saw him (in the ep after the Body ep) he did not confess it. She is ultimately going to find out what happened (the baby-) and who he slept with- and she will be angry beyond belief. (I mean, face it, Darla and Buffy are diametrically opposed.)

What they have not told us is what Angel and Buffy talked about when they met half-way between Sunnydale and LA. But both of them arrived back home upset. It might be another reason that Buffy is getting it on w/ Spike (to get back at Angel.)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure that's true anymore (even if he didn't have his own show) -- MrDave, 19:48:23 12/16/01 Sun

What they have not told us is what Angel and Buffy talked about when they met half-way between Sunnydale and LA. But both of them arrived back home upset. It might be another reason that Buffy is getting it on w/ Spike (to get back at Angel.)

I see it as a perfect subject of the first Buffy/Angel movie (coming soon to a theatre near you!)
[> [> [> [> [> don't think he wanted to lose his soul -- anom, 11:31:05 12/18/01 Tue

"...he had returned most willingly to Darla's bed, in effect not caring, and even hoping that he would once and for all be freed from his soul?"

Angel wasn't looking for happiness, true or otherwise. He said he wanted to "feel something besides the cold." Anything--not happiness, which is so far off the scale he was talking about that I don't think he even remotely expected it. Which implies he wasn't hoping to lose his soul.
[> Rufus's official position on Fury -- Rufus, 16:00:14 12/14/01 Fri

I don't mind Fury as writer but as a regular person on the net I feel he was a bit of a jack ass in provoking the fans like he did on the message boards. I'm aware of just how young some of the people on the board are and when he made comments about fans writing certain serial killers in jail he pissed me off.The writers set up this story line and most of the people who like Spike are aware of the difference between a fictional character and the actor who they happen to like. The redemptionists also are aware of Spike's potential to fall back into old patterns. What gets me is that like racism, sexism, any old ism, the soul has been picked as the main reason to write off beings when it's evident that evil isn't the sole purchase of the soulless. In creating the Buffyverse, Whedon and co can talk about evil without getting too personal..yet.
Spike is a remorseless killer, but every member of the SG are also killers, they just happen to be on the side of humanity. I'm sure that the demons feel that Buffy is a remorseless killer. So, when I look at this story of a vampire who just may be capable of changeing his ways, I look on it as a hope for the humanity that lost a part of itself being able to win over the vampire posession. The idea that love can indeed transform the evil. It's the stuff of all the redemption myths that strongly pervade all societies. But being realistic, I know that if Spike returns to demon sterotype, he will have to be destoyed. When I look at this story I have to ask, what are they trying to tell us? I don't think they (writers)are quite sure yet. Back again to serial killers.....they are a creation of humans with a soul.....vampires are not real, so I don't consider them as serial killers in the real world sense...or we'd be reading "Silence of the Undead Lambs".
[> [> Re: Rufus's official position on Fury -- Traveler, 21:38:36 12/14/01 Fri

I totally agree, and it also annoys me when the writers make concrete statements about which characters are capable of what. Ideally, I would watch BtVS soley for its artistic merit and wouldn't care what the characters do, so long is it is believable. However, I find myself caring about the characters and hoping that things turn out well for them. For this reason, the question of what happens between Spike and Buffy has some real weight for me. This is a source of tension and drama. If the writers tell me that it can never work, then (if I believe them) I lose a lot of that drama. What's the point of watching, if I've already been told how it will end?
[> [> [> Re: Rufus's official position on Fury -- LoriAnn, 05:34:22 12/15/01 Sat

"If the writers tell me that it can never work, then (if I believe them) I lose a lot of that drama."

That would be more true if we could believe the writers: take what they say at face value. I'm not that up on what DF does, but MN is truly devious, and the things she says are usually true, but, utterly misleading.
[> [> [> [> Love -- verdantheart, 06:24:31 12/18/01 Tue

Thanks, Rufus, Traveler, LoriAnn. I agree, the thing that compels me the most about B/S is that I am a sucker for a story about the power of love--the power of love to change people (or "things"). And yes, I agree, you can't take what the writers say to heart. After all, they don't want to give away their hand. I've heard a lot of comments down a certain line and I think that they are intentionally giving us only half the story. The real story comes across our TV screens, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
[> Whoever said life's fair? What's Angel got to do with a B/S relationship? -- Juliette, 16:18:00 12/14/01 Fri

[> [> Amen to that! (NT) -- SugarTherapy, 15:48:36 12/15/01 Sat

[> The Fury quote in question -- Masquerade, 18:41:25 12/14/01 Fri

This appeared around the time of "Crush" last year and does make sense if Spike is still evil, which is a debateable 'IF'

Spike, boyfriend, it raises a lot of moral questions about our characters, about the kind of people they would date. It would speak volumes about Buffy in a negative way, if she were to reciprocate. She is a strong, moral woman, and for her to suddenly go, 'Hey, he is kind of cute,' that would diminish her character ([BtVS/AtS writer] David Fury,, Feb 9, 2001).
[> [> Re: The Fury quote in question -- Deeva, 20:18:11 12/14/01 Fri

"and for her to suddenly go, 'Hey, he is kind of cute'."

That's just the thing, Buffy is not suddenly thinking "Hey, he is kind of cute". Not suddenly at all. I don't claim to know what she is thinking. All I know is that for a while there she was confiding in Spike feelings that she could not share with anyone else, at least until OMwF. It's a combination of things and something (what, I don't know) that was being built up over time.
[> [> [> You got right to the heart of it, Deeva. -- LoriAnn, 05:38:29 12/15/01 Sat

Appatently as I wrote before about MN, we can't take DF's words at face value either. The quote was true, but as Deeva pointed out, it was always inapplicable.
[> [> Quick question and longer comments -- Traveler, 21:58:34 12/14/01 Fri

I've never actually read the full artical, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to find archived interviews on Is the quote above all that he said, or did he also categorically deny the possibility that anything could happen between Buffy and Spike?

If the former is true, then I am not as upset about it. Yes, Fury still implied that nothing would happen between Spike and Buffy, but that is a far cry from saying it straight out. I would rather be misled by a little equivocation than an outright falsehood.

However, even if that is the case, Marti is still guilty of the same thing. In an interview, she said (paraphrasing/summarizing) that Spike is not the right guy for Buffy and she will have to eventually figure that out.
[> Re: Fury's Rule, or "I Bet Ol' Davie's not Happy About Spike" -- TMZ, 19:16:26 12/14/01 Fri

I like Angel better on his own show than he was on BTVS because he's finally become a real person. He's going out, helping the hopeless, fighting the forces of evil on his own instead of simply being the namby-pamby convenient semi-boyfriend who does nothing but read Nietzsche and wait for Buffy to come to him for advice and/or help. He's developed and grown in so many ways over the past 3 years, that I sort of see him as having outpaced that little blonde, self-absorbed, walking Electra complex.

Interesting how Angel is forgiven for his past transgressions so easily because he has a SOUL and is remorseful about it. Never mind that the first thing he did when he got it back was ... um...well gee, SQUAT except brood and wallow in self-pity for the better part of a century.

That's right, he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to make up for what he'd done. He'd just...felt sorry.

And he would have continued to play ratboy for the rest of eternity if it wasn't for Whistler getting his ass in gear. No, wait. That wasn't it. It took Whistler showing Angel the Buffster with a lollipop to get the ol' Humbert Humbert going.

Angel has prophecy working for him. Angel has the PTB looking out for him. He has friends. He has a son. He has the whole Shanshu thing waiting for him at the end.

With his soul, he let Darla and Dru have their lawyer buffet. With his soul he screwed Darla, not particularly caring that he just *might* bring Angelus back.

Yeah, he was hurting. Yeah, he hit rock bottom.

And now because of his actions, he has a son.

Seems to me he's gotten a lot more chances than usual just because he's got that all-wondrous soul.

I guess I find the idea that Angel is a better person because he has a soul a bit of a fallacy - it makes being "good" easier.

I feel for Spike because he has a hell of a harder time working towards the same goal without all the cushions of soul and prophecy and higher powers holding him up.

Especially when all he has to look forward to at the end is being a big pile of dust.
[> [> Delurking* -- Rina, 09:17:49 12/15/01 Sat

I agree with you completely! Thank you for such a clear and concise argument. LMAO @ the Humbert Humbert reference, but it's kinda true. It was a little twisted for a 200 + year old being to fall in "love" with a fifteen year old Buffy. At least Spike waited until she was over 18 to start lusting after her.

Spike, for the most part, had no one (well, except Harmony) throughout much of Season four and five when he was struggling to re-establish his identity. He's accepted and gotten over his lot in life a lot faster than Angel, it didn't take a century of living in alleys eating rats and such.
[> [> That cuts through the illusions a bit -- darrenK, 10:31:15 12/15/01 Sat

[> I think you're thinking of David Greenwalt and souls are overrated -- darrenK, 19:35:06 12/14/01 Fri

I don't know. I've read verbage from quite a few Buffy writer/producers--Marti Noxon, Doug Petrie, David GreenwaltĖĖall expressing pretty much the same opinion, that Spike isn't good enough for Buffy, that Spike/Buffy could never REALLY be happy, that Spike would always be evil, etc.

Yet, when the stories are broken [plotted] Marti Noxon, Doug Petrie and David Fury make up half the people in that little room and what's said in that little room is almost as closely guarded a secret as what happens in a conference of the justices of the Supreme Court.

What I'm saying is that these are people that never tell us what's supposed to happen the show, yet many of them have gone out of their way to dis Buffy/Spike. Why?

I smell a fox
I think they're lying. I think they're trying to defuse the Angel/Buffy shippers by pretending to represent them, all the while writing and plotting the show the exact way they want to anyway.

David Fury works for Joss Whedon. He goes to Joss Whedon's house on Sundays to read Shakespeare. He would make such a quote if Joss wanted him to. It's like dropping fake spoilers.

That being said, I dispute your characterization of David Fury as the writer Joss put in charge of Angel.

Since when? David Greenwalt wrote Angel's first spotlight episodeĖĖAngelĖĖand David Greenwalt, who is now the other Executive Producer of Angel the show, or Joss has written almost every big Angel episode since then, except for a lot of the Buffy/Angel season 2 romance arc and that was written by Marti Noxon, who also wrote the most recent episode with any Buffy/Angel face-to-face on-air contact, "Forever" during Buffy season 5.

Even "I will remember you," the big Buffy/Angel romance coda from ATS season 1 was written by David Greenwalt.

So where are all the big Angel/Buffy David Fury episodes? They don't exist.

In fact, I think you're misremembering. It was David Greenwalt who very recently dissed the Spike/Buffy romance in an interview for TV Guide that was about Angel. I think you're getting the names confused.

I'm also of the opinion that the vampire with a soul thing is too simple for the Buffy writers now. Angel does good because he has a soul. His whole approach to morality defined in one quick, easy sentence.

When Angel loses his soul, he's a murderous bastard. When he has a soul he's a cooing sensitve man.

To quote sexy VampWillow:

"Bored now."

By Joss' definition HItler had a soul. So did Mobutu Seko Seso. So does Slobodan Milosevic.

This is where I say it...

Souls are overrated.

The Spike/Buffy arc presents moral quandries for grown-ups. Spike does good and gives love and support without a "soul." Yet, what does that mean?

Now there are a whole set of complications that bear thinking about. Spike is inclined to evil but he loves Buffy and like so many men he's willing to do what it takes to have her.

And here on this board that centers on Philosophical issues in Buffy, Spike presents a much more interesting challenge than Angel ever will.

Spike can do what he wants, but he chooses to do good? Nietzsche anyone?

[> [> Hear hear! -- Dalie, 22:55:51 12/14/01 Fri

Angel was Buffy's first love (and vice versa) and it was the kind of romantic love you see in movies and little girls dream of. But it's not the kind of love that happens in real life because you can't be that angsty and broody for the rest of your life. You just can't :)

Spike, soul or no soul, chip or no chip, is the perfect adult relationship for Buffy. Something messy, something *real* (paraphrasing him here) something that just makes your head spin because you can't sum it up in one sentence and it makes for GREAT DRAMA. Why else are debating it so much?

Spike is just about the most complex character I've ever seen on television and even in books ... there's no arguing that he loves Buffy (not just obsession) you don't almost allow to get yourself killed ("Intervention") and keep your promises to a dead woman with no hopes of even a thank you if you're merely obsessed.

Can Buffy love Spike? I have a feeling she's been falling for him slowly since she got back, but perhaps it's not time for her to really give into it yet (first she has to deal with all her men baggage ... and can I mention, he's the only one that hasn't left her? Even Xander's left her in a way, moved on with his life) but these two have such great dramatic and storytelling potential that I cannot believe the writers would go anywhere else with the story.

Now it's going to be a rocky road, but it's all about the journey, isn't it?

[> [> Re: I think you're thinking of David Greenwalt and souls are overrated -- Spike Lover, 11:32:22 12/16/01 Sun

"I am of the opinion that a vampire w/ a soul is too easy for the writers now."

I think that was the point they were trying to make in the T-R episode (where everyone lost their memories.) You will remember that Spike jumps up and says, 'I must be a vampire w/ a soul, trying to right the wrongs that I have done.'

Buffy looked at him like he was crazy or pathetic. (I just said, Sorry, that's been done.)
[> Re: Fury's Rule, or "I Bet Ol' Davie's not Happy About Spike" -- LoriAnn, 06:35:24 12/15/01 Sat

This atoning business is highly overrated. Even Angel has realized that he cannot atone for his past evil; it's in the past. All he can do now is as much good as he can, but it isn't atoning; it's just good. What's done is done. The idea that Angel has to "pay for" his crimes doesn't work. If "paying back" means making restitution, his crimes happened, for the most part, may years in the past, and making restitution is impossible. He can't give back the life he took from so many. Were I to steal Mary's money, giving a like sum to Janice years later isn't making restitution; moreover, if I give it back to Mary later, I may be able to give her the money,but I can never give her the time during which she was deprived of the effects of that money on her life. On the other hand, if "paying back" means being punished, and I think that is the crux of the problem, punishment, being made to suffer, revenge is what is really meant. Evil deeds are not like gallons of milk: a person can leave the super market with the milk as long as it is paid for. Paying for what is done is not the same as redemption. Paying just makes those who see the payment feel that vengance has been extracted. On an obvious level, evil is not always paid for, and good is not always rewarded. We'd like to think they were, so we demand retribution or vengance. However, real life isn't that black and white. Black and white, where have I heard that before?
Paying for what is done comes in many forms, mostly internal. Every act has its own consequences, and for the actor the acts are their own retribution. Evil acts usually push those who commit them farther into evil and farther from being able to give or accept love. Likewise, good acts have their consequences. One of them is a possible strengthening of virtue, a greater facility to do good, a greater ease at accepting and giving love. Our actions, eventually, define our characters, yet actions and character can both change, but change comes with more difficulty as continued actions of one kind or the other solidify character.
I often read "Spike doesn't deserve Buffy" in posts. What do any of us deserve? Granted all the evil things Spike has done were truly evil, although his past and present motivations are still a bit murky, but who is truly and completely good: you, me, Angel, Buffy? Or is it none of the above.
This, perhaps, should be in a new thread, but I'll bring it up here: is Spike replacing Angel in the overall plotline of BtVS? When Angel went on to get his own show, did that leave a hole in JW's plans for Buffy. Was Spike's chip, or an equivalent plot device, inevitable so that the plot hole could be plugged by a vampire? Was Riley an attempt to plug the hole by going in the opposite direction? If so, clearly that didn't work. Riley's niceness didn't provide Buffy anything to push against, so he was darkened, but in the process, weakened, so still he provided no real resistance. Spike's spiky self gives us something that makes for true and interesting conflict on numerous levels, levels, in fact, that Angel couldn't have reached because of his soul.
Whoever ends up with whom, B/A, B/S, B/Z, B/?, what will ultimately be most satisfying to those who really think about the program will be what provides us with a drama that lives up to the quality BtVS has shown itself capable of so often in the past.
[> [> Re: Fury's Rule, or "I Bet Ol' Davie's not Happy About Spike" -- Deeva, 12:49:18 12/15/01 Sat

Good points about atonement, LoriAnn. Iíve long felt that there is no easy way or formula for making people/beings "pay" for their misdeeds. Itís the whole "2 wrongs donít make a right" bit. A perfect example is the justice system, any societyís justice system, not just American. I get that people need to know/feel the magnitude of their actions but I question whether it is the correct thing to do. I donít have a solution for how should they be punished. The whole thing just makes me feel uncomfortable. To be responsible for passing judgment on a personís life, thatís heavy.

"On an obvious level, evil is not always paid for, and good is not always rewarded. We'd like to think they were, so we demand retribution or vengeance."

Oh, I like this one. In a conversation with a new acquaintance, who is a lapsed Catholic, who found out I was raised Buddhist, he started talking about karma and the whole levels of consciousness thing. He asked me how Iíve incorporated those lessons into my life, since Iím not devoutly Buddhist. I think the only thing that Iím aware of the karma aspect. But not to such a degree that it rules my life. Itís not all "Oh, thatís bad. I shouldnít do it cause itíll come back and bite me on the ass." I think thatís a little boring. Iíve always liked Spikeís saying to Dawn, "Iím not good but Iím okay" or something to that affect. Iíve learned to let go of certain things beyond my control. I canít control anyone else but me and that's a huge thing cause I tend to be a type A personality.
[> [> [> Perhaps I Should Clarify... -- AngelVSAngelus, 14:57:18 12/15/01 Sat

yes, I do think that remorse is of more import than alot of people seem to believe. But what is meant by remorse when I say it is not necessarily endless brooding (a la Angel sometimes) over past misdeeds, so much as a change in perspective on the value of life. Angel feels remorse for his past deeds because his conscience (which, I know, is not synonymous with soul) makes him empathetic. He holds other lives (well, at least good ones) to have worth and value.
Now, Spike, on the other hand, still considers other humans to be a delectable treat, even if he can't partake in it. And, while he may hold the lives of Buffy and the gang to be of value, others, at least as far as I've interpreted, mean nothing to him.
I'm afraid that does not sit well with me, and doesn't give me the impression that someone like that is a Good person.
[> [> [> [> and you're right, darrenK, I was mistaken about Fury/Greenwalt, sorry about that :) -- AngelVSAngelus, 15:04:48 12/15/01 Sat

I also hope that no one hear is getting heated or angry about this. I could be mistaken, I'm just getting a kind of aggressive vibe, and my post wasn't meant to start or perpetuate that at all.
I'll gladly go where the writer's take the series, as I always have. I just have certain preferences, of characters, and scenarios involving them. If I inadvertantly said anything before that offended somebody into the afforementioned aggression, I'm sorry. And if I'm completely imagining it and am mistaken, I'm sorry as well.
[> [> [> [> [> You know what? I concede... -- AngelVSAngelus, 15:10:36 12/15/01 Sat

Not from my opinions about Buffy and Spike, so much as my perspective. I think perhaps my problem is that I'm looking at it from the perspective of "I'd have a problem with that situation if it occurred in reality" and not from the perspective of "In the realm of fiction it raises intriguing, if scary, questions."
Despite how I'd feel if it actually HAPPENED, I always appreciate whatever the writers do on the show as good drama, as someone pointed out to me in an earlier post. You're right, it is about the journey in fiction. Though, in the realm of fiction, I'd still heavily enjoy if Spike were villainous again.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: don't sweat it -- mundusmundi, 15:18:00 12/15/01 Sat

It may just be the overload of Spike/Buffy/chip posts of late that's causing any consternation. (Not that it matters, but for the record, none of your posts have bothered me.) I have a friend who begins nearly every conversation with a gripe about Spike, as though the bleach-blonde one's a colleague we're loathe to deal with. Fiction is fiction, and I'll take Spike good or bad.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You know what? I concede... -- Rufus, 20:42:26 12/15/01 Sat

Don't worry about aggression at this board, just worry if we cut off the chocolate supply.
There is a big difference between what I feel about ships on the show and the writers. But to say that one character is a serial killer in prison and say Buffy would be diminished by going out with him made me thing...hmmmm so the other serial killer was okay cause he felt bad about what he did? Having a Judge Judy moment here but "don't be pissing on my leg and tell me it's rain".....if I used the Fury logic then both guys diminish Buffy. So I take this show to be a fantasy that relies on metaphor. When Fury made comments to fans that questioned their morals then incited them further by suggesting they write real serial killers in jail, I got angry. If Fury wants to do a show about real serial killers then fine, but then be honest about all the killers in the show, don't just pick on one and excuse the other.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Writers' Statements -- Humanitas, 15:04:12 12/16/01 Sun

Hmm, this just occurred to me:

We know that the writers are a devious bunch. They say stuff that may be true, but is not The Truth. It occurrs to me that Fury made the inflamatory remarks at the time of "Crush," an episode in which Spike does some pretty creepy things ('creepy' as in 'he's a creep,' not 'he gives me the creeps.') Is it possible that His Furiousness was imply echoing the sense of the episode? If his meaning was "Buffy getting together with Spike because his tying her up and offering to stake Dru turned actually impressed her," then I'd have to say that he's right.

Just a thought.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Writers' Statements -- Rufus, 17:53:38 12/16/01 Sun

My issue isn't with anything in the show it's with the writers treatment of some of the fans. If he is going to sling around the serial killer label he has to apply it to everyone it fits.....which in this show depending on perspective means just about all the main characters......they are all killers you know....;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> serial killer/ex-serial killer -- anom, 14:06:48 12/18/01 Tue

"But to say that one character is a serial killer in prison and say Buffy would be diminished by going out with him made me thing...hmmmm so the other serial killer was okay cause he felt bad about what he did?"

No, because he stopped doing it of his own free will. Both Angel & Spike didn't have free will about killing when they were unsouled/unchipped, & Spike still doesn't (just in the other direction). Angel has a choice, & when he was involved w/Buffy, at least, he made the right ones. And Spike, until recently, substituted the closest things he could find for physically hurting people (hurting them emotionally, threatening them in order to rob them). It's the difference between stopping & being stopped. Angel still has the choice to kill people & deal w/feeling bad about it, or suppress the bad feelings; plenty of humans w/souls do it, & in pragmatic terms, it would simplify his (un)life a lot. But he doesn't. Spike doesn't have the choice to kill & as far as we can tell wouldn't feel bad about it if he could & did.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: serial killer/ex-serial killer -- Rufus, 20:03:19 12/18/01 Tue

Yes, we saw what free will did for Angel, the body count was 15 plus add on the others he killed when he tried to remain in the vampire community. Both parties still can kill, Spike can still assist in killing humans just like Angel did, and he doesn't. Angel did. And I'm not so sure about Spike killing people anymore, we only got to see that he can still talk himself into it, but in that having to convince himself to attack you have to wonder what is going on in his mind. I wonder if he has developed the ability to "feel bad" about the death of a human, his tears were real enough for Buffy. So, how do you compare both parties, one was just as bad as the other as vampires, Angel just had more senority. Both are no longer killing people (Angel is back on the wagon). As for substituting demon killing for people, Angel is doing the same thing that Spike is. Angel still has much of the demon still in the man and enjoys killing, just like Spike. So both men are doing the same thing. So what has more value, the man with the soul and free will who decides to stop killing, or the demon w/out a soul doing the same? It could be argued that the attack in the alley proves that Spike would still prefer to kill, but is that still a regression before a progression?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: serial killer/ex-serial killer -- Anthora, 18:22:31 12/21/01 Fri

"No, because he stopped doing it of his own free will."

Well, to be a bit more accurate, he stopped because he was sick with guilt. However, he TRIED to keep doing it even after the re-souling and despite the guilty feelings for some time, hanging with Darla and Dru and ol' Will.

I think making a focused decision to change, rather than doing it because you're being torn apart with shame, takes a bit more effort. One way, you are turning your back on habits which are familiar, but which now cause you pain. The other, you are rejecting that which you crave.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: and you're right, darrenK, I was mistaken about Fury/Greenwalt, sorry about that :) -- darrenK, 18:06:36 12/15/01 Sat

No, don't worry about it. This is a discussion forum and as long as we're not personally insulting each other or arguing just to argue everything is cool.

And, you obviously hit a nerve, which is also a good thing. People are very wary of this Spike/Buffy romance and I, as a fan, couldn't be happier about that.

In most TV shows, fans are wary because plots are repeating themselves, e.g. Ross is dating Rachel for the 14th time, or because something wildly implausible is happening, e.g. Bobby Ewing returns from the dead to void an entire season of plot. That's why we're really lucky, it's perfectly plausible for Buffy to fall for her antagonist. And, like Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, it's perfectly plausible for her to "go native" in her battle against the demons.

She's always been from the supernatural world and one of the subtle subplots of season 4 was that Buffy doesn't really belong in the human camp any more than she belongs in the Demon one. She's a tweener. So's Spike. And what's wonderful is that the show's still about Good and Evil, but we're no longer always sure which one's which.

The show's going where no show has gone before into the literary world of moral ambiguity and I say, "Hurray."

People are very possessive of Buffy, the character and the show. She means something to them, a mythical hero, a real beacon. And so the fans get very ideological when arguing about the show. And as long as the arguments are interesting, I'm going to keep arguing. I hope you will too. ; )

[> [> [> [> [> [> You guys rock :D -- AngelVSAngelus, 18:19:50 12/16/01 Sun

in a number of other places the intelligent, and nice, responses here would have been replaced with witless flamage. I really love this board. It provides me with conversation I can't really have in real life, because all of my friends aren't the obsessive, Joss-worshipping aspiring writer that I am and don't think about the shows' nuances NEARLY as much as I do. In fact, I kind of just get creepy looks when I share things, heh. I can share anything with my girlfriend, and I've actually managed to get her hooked on the show with my "Best of the buff" tapes, but she hasn't seen enough of the show to have an extensive convo either.
Just thought I'd share my appreciation of everyone here. Without you, I'd probably explode with internalized obsession :)
[> [> Re: Angelus chipped -- Gilina, 06:28:55 12/22/01 Sat

The comment about Spike adjusting to being chipped is right on. How do you think Angelus would have behaved if he had been chipped? Probably would have found someone to do the torturing for him while he watched. Angelus wouldn't have accepted his fate and changed to meet it.

I like Spike. He's a multidimensional character - and loads of fun. Plus James Marters does a fabulous job of revealing Spike's emotions through exquisite facial expressions.
[> Re: Fury's Rule, or "I Bet Ol' Davie's not Happy About Spike" -- maddog, 17:10:47 12/16/01 Sun

Well first off you're suggesting that life is fair...which it's not. :) I mean, I like Angel, but he lost the whole "life's fair" when he got vamped...then got slammed again when his soul was restored. He's used to life not being fair.
[> [> Re: Is life fair to Angel? -- sasha, 17:54:01 12/17/01 Mon

maddog says of Angel: 'He's used to life not being fair.'

This line imediately made me think "is Angel used to life not being fair or am I used to life not being fair to Angel?'

I think its the latter...heck, we could do a whole thread titled 'life was not fair to Angel when....'. We could then sort them into categories like a) "ironic moments which made me laugh but really weren't funny, aka he really can't win" (killing the pregnant woman's protector in Judgement)

b) "great angsty unfair moments he deserved" (killing his father and then having Darla point out he would now never have his father's approval, making Dru insane before he turned her and then having her reappear in his life when he had a soul, again, and again, and again)

c) "great angsty moments he really didn't deserve" (falling in love with the Slayer, experiencing a moment of true happiness and losing his soul, breaking Buffy's heart by leaving Sunnydale to give Buffy a chance at a normal life, giving up being mortal and being with Buffy in order to protect her, being ordered by Wes to take out the Groosalug in Pylea even though Angel feared losing himself forever in his inner demon)

d) "great angsty moments he may or may not have deserved--discuss" (Buffy sending Angel to Hell to save the world after Angelus wrecked havoc in Sunnydale and opened the portal, the First Evil tormenting Angel with visions of Angelus past in Amends)

I think life really isn't fair to Angel. Part of it is his own doing and his own choices, but I think many events that have hapened to him were just that, unfair. But maybe that is what makes him such an interesting character. He's evil, he's good, he gets a purpose, he's on the path to redemption, he gets a son, the whole world is after that son, his life implodes.

Now, Buffy's sleeping with Spike. I can't think of anything that Buffy could do that would hurt him more than this. After all, he left so she could have a more normal life, in the light....

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