December 2001 posts


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The Willow-Glory Connection -- Whisper2AScream, 09:08:19 12/20/01 Thu

Hey, been busy with end of the semester and getting ready for the holidays. Finals are done now at least. Whoo-hoo!

Anyway, this might have been mentioned before, but if Willow hadn't tried that reverse brain-suck on Glory to heal Tara, would she have fallen so far into power-obsession this season? Yes, the signs of it were there previous seasons, but this season it seemed accelerated. Maybe she picked up some aspects of Glory in transit? She was certainly trying to play God in bringing Buffy back from the dead, and her powers, while strong before, likewise seemed quadrupled over the summer. Also, she's come to be as manipulative as Glory. She wants everyone to act the way she wants them to, and gets angry when they don't. Willow didn't seem nearly this bad before, and I think her contact with Glory has affected her more than she realizes. If she still does become the big bad for the season, maybe this will be the source for it?
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[> Re: The Willow-Glory Connection -- maddog, 09:21:12 12/20/01 Thu

I don't think it has anything to do with Glory except for maybe the fact that Willow was encouraged by the fact that she was able to manipulate in some way a God. Otherwise I think Glorificous had nothing to do with it. This power struggle's been building for a few seasons now. She's finally not the geek...she's transformed into a very strong witch. I think it's just going to her head. She's treating magic like she's always treated knowledge...always have to be the best...always have to do something harder...and now she's finding out just what the consequences are when it comes to that concept with magic.
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[> Re: The Willow-Glory Connection -- clandestina, 10:26:14 12/20/01 Thu

i think it's been brewin' for awhile because of lots of different reasons. she's always had self esteem issues, and remember in "forever" how she pulled the book out on the shelf so that dawn could bring her mother back from the dead? pretty shady, no? i do think however that perhaps having to spoonfeed her girlfriend was a little too much for willow, and that plus buffy dying probably drove her over the edge. tara leaving her was the last straw.
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[> It might explain some things... (Some spoilers) -- Darby, 10:35:38 12/20/01 Thu

I doubt that this is the way the story will go, but there seem to be parts of the established mythology that would support the move:

Maybe I missed an alternate explanation, but the way I got it, Glory had been submerged in human hosts for much of the time (thousands of years?) that she had been in the Buffyverse. Stands to reason - she's not very low-profile when she's active, and there was very little known about her, even accessing the Council's records. It seemed like the implication was that as her "departure deadline" approached, she became able to assert her presence more often. She used Dawn to open the door home...

BAM! The door slammed. Where is she? Where's Ben? Could she be at least partly in Willow, providing a conduit to a greater power?

Probably not. Willow first exhibited a "jump" on the power scale DURING the conflict with Glory (very poorly-explained - or is there an untold story there?) and doesn't seem significantly more powerful now (well, it's hard to explain the "rampage" with Amy under any of the established rules - maybe she IS a lot more powerful). Personality changes that we're seeing develop now also seemed in-progress before Glory's demise. Add that to the "been there, done that" aspect of Glory from a pure plotting standpoint, and it doesn't seem like that's the direction we're headed.

But that's the great thing about this board: you've got me thinking about aspects of the show that hadn't even occured to me, thinking all sorts of weird but wonderful thoughts. Where ARE we going from here?
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[> [> Ah, not so much (I think) -- Slayrunt, 22:29:22 12/22/01 Sat

I think a little differently on Glory/the Key.

The Key has existed for thousands of years, but Glory was put in Ben and only Ben. The other hellgods trapped her is a human host and when that host dies, she dies, but Glory was able to get out at times.

I wonder when/why/how Ben/Glory went to the monks country to find the key, so I'll use Rufus' magic clause.
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[> You've got to give a little, to get a little. -- Rufus, 12:10:17 12/20/01 Thu

When Willow resorted to the book of Darkest Magicks in Tough Love, I think she invited in trouble. Sure she got a power boost, but if Rack is right, what did she give in exchange for the power she got? And has she only begun to give?
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[> [> That's the story of, that's the glory of love!! :-) Don't mind me, just being silly. -- Rob, 10:16:41 12/21/01 Fri

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[> [> [> Yes, you are very, very silly.........;) -- Rufus, 17:04:18 12/21/01 Fri

Random attacks of silliness are common here...:):):)
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[> [> Re: You've got to give a little, to get a little. -- Dyna, 12:25:39 12/21/01 Fri

Last night while watching "Tough Love" I was struck by how the book of "Darkest Magics" flew open and turned its own pages. It reminded me of the way the spell to derat Amy appeared out of nowhere. I don't know if they're related, but isn't it strange and worrisome the way that spell manifested itself? I think we haven't seen the last of Willow's troubles, by a long shot.
OT: Had to post this! Mostly for the gals -- Liq, 13:55:25 12/20/01 Thu

PREGNANCY Q & A
Q: Should I have a baby after 35?
A: No, 35 children is enough.

Q: I'm two months pregnant now. When will my baby move?
A: With any luck, right after he finishes college.

Q: What is the most reliable method to determine a baby's sex?
A: Childbirth.

Q: My wife is five months pregnant and so moody that sometimes she's borderline irrational.
A: So what's your question?

Q: My childbirth instructor says it's not pain I'll feel during labor, but pressure. Is she right?
A: Yes, in the same way that a tornado might be called an air current.

Q: When is the best time to get an epidural?
A: Right after you find out you're pregnant.

Q: Is there any reason I have to be in the delivery room while my wife is in labor?
A: Not unless the word "alimony" means anything to you.

Q: Is there anything I should avoid while recovering from childbirth?
A: Yes, pregnancy.

Q: Do I have to have a baby shower?
A: Not if you change the baby's diaper very quickly.

Q: Our baby was born last week. When will my wife begin to feel and act normal again?
A: When the kids are in college.

10 WAYS TO KNOW IF YOU HAVE "ESTROGEN ISSUES"
1. Everyone around you has an attitude problem.
2. You're adding chocolate chips to your cheese omelet.
3. The dryer has shrunk every last pair of your jeans.
4. Your husband is suddenly agreeing to everything you say.
5. You're using your cellular phone to dial up every bumper sticker that says: "How's my driving-call 1-800-***-."
6. Everyone's head looks like an invitation to batting-practice.
7. You're convinced there's a God and he's male.
8. You can't believe they don't make a tampon bigger than Super Plus.
9. You're sure that everyone is scheming to drive you crazy.
10. The ibuprofen bottle is empty and you bought it yesterday.

TOP TEN THINGS ONLY WOMEN UNDERSTAND
10. Cats' facial expressions.
9. The need for the same style of shoes in different colors.
8. Why bean sprouts aren't just weeds.
7. Fat clothes.
6. Taking a car trip without trying to beat your best time.
5. The difference between beige, ecru, cream, off-white,and eggshell.
4. Cutting your fringe to make it grow.
3. Eyelash curlers.
2. The inaccuracy of every bathroom scale ever made. AND, the Number One thing only women understand:
1. OTHER WOMEN
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[> Thanks Liq. ROFLMAO! -- Kimberly, 14:00:04 12/20/01 Thu

So, what's so strange about chocolate chip cheese omelets? That sounds like such a good idea, I might just go home and make one. LOL
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[> I think the guys can take it if they like Chocolate with their eggs....:) -- Rufus, 14:15:06 12/20/01 Thu

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[> Re: OT: Had to post this! Mostly for the gals -- nay, 14:16:40 12/20/01 Thu

That was great especialy the last set. LOL. I sent a copy off to a few friends and family members.

Thanks.
~nay still giggling to herself. :D
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[> Thanks, Liq. Needed the laugh. -- LadyStarlight, 14:31:49 12/20/01 Thu

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[> Thanks...this brought back some funny preggers memories! -- AurraSing, 17:54:42 12/20/01 Thu

Like how during my *last* labour,I began complaining to the OB/GYN that I wanted a refund on my epidural because "honey,that shot sure didn't take......grrrrr..!"

He just smiled nervously and began working at arm's length.......
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[> Re: Even as a guy, I found some of it mildly amusing :-) -- Dedalus, 18:32:19 12/20/01 Thu

Q. about .wav files -- nay, 14:36:16 12/20/01 Thu

Hello all. I've had an opportunity to chat with a few of you. It seems that most of you have been ingrained within the 'BtVS'/'AtS' community for a while. So I was hoping you could help me. I was wondering where I might find some audio (.wav) files. I went to Spikespotting.com and theirs are down for a while. I'm looking to DL Spikes subway/alley scene from 'Crush'. Can anyone help me?

~nay
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[> Re: Q. about .wav files -- pagangodess, 20:49:42 12/20/01 Thu

Which one exactly is it, nay? I have most of them and can email them to you, no problem.

pagan
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[> [> Re: Q. about .wav files -- nay, 21:37:51 12/20/01 Thu

I'd love the entire last scene of Buffy and Spike outback the Bronze. But my most favorite lines are: (from Psyche ..action edited out by me)
****************************

SPIKE
(to Buffy)
The first was all business but the second, she had a touch of your style.

SPIKE
(to Buffy)
She was cunning, resourceful... oh, did I mention? Hot. I could have danced all night with that one.

BUFFY
You think we're dancing?

SPIKE
That's all we've ever done.

SPIKE
(v.o.)
And the thing about the dance is, you never get to stop.

SPIKE
(to Buffy)
Every day you wake up, it's the same bloody question that haunts you: is today the day I die?

SPIKE
(v.o.)
Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later it's gonna catch you.

SPIKE
(to Buffy)
And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty, but because you're just a little bit in love with it.

SPIKE
Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day.

SPIKE
That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death wish.

SPIKE
(to Buffy)
Even you.

SPIKE
The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is you've got ties to the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting off the inevitable.

SPIKE
Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second- the second- that happens...

SPIKE
You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real good day.

SPIKE
Here endeth the lesson. I just wonder if you'll like it as much as she did.

BUFFY
(cold)
Get out of my sight. Now.

SPIKE
Oh... did I scare ya? You're the Slayer. Do something about it. Hit me. Come on. One good swing. You know you want to.

BUFFY
I mean it.

SPIKE
So do I. Give it me good, Buffy. Do it!

BUFFY
Spike...

His passion aroused, Spike leans in to kiss her. She backs away in horror.

BUFFY
What the hell are you doing?

SPIKE
Come on. I can feel it, Slayer. You know you want to dance.

BUFFY
Say it's true. Say I do want to.

BUFFY
It wouldn't be you, Spike. It would never be you.

BUFFY
You're beneath me.
**********************************

Ahhhhh the memories.. if you think you can send that I'd be every soo grateful. It's really been on my mind lately and I can't get those lines out of my mind. I think it was just the way he was delivering them. If it's too much let me know.

Thanks.
~nay
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[> [> [> Re: Q. about .wav files -- pagangodess, 08:23:28 12/21/01 Fri

I only have two of those lines. Shucks, and here I thought I had them all. I'll send you what I have. You can probably find the rest at Kazaa or WinMx.
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[> Re: Q. about .wav files -- Shiver, 07:08:09 12/21/01 Fri

I found quite a collection of Buffy/Angel sounds clips - and videos - on Morpheous.
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[> [> Re: Q. about .wav files -- nay, 09:48:05 12/21/01 Fri

Thank you both for trying, but I cna't get my stupid annyoying 'puter to work well with Morpheous, Kazaa or WinMx. I even tried Bearshare and few others. So I know it's my 'puter that's the problem. I don't have any handy lone gunman hanging around to fix it either. :( Oops that's the wrong show. How about a handy 'puter wise Willow? :)

Thanks anyway. I guess I'm just going to have to wait until Spikespotting.com can get the audio back up.

~nay
A question of volume -- GreatRewards, 14:54:08 12/20/01 Thu

Assumption: A vampire kills by draining the blood from it's victim, sucking it out of them.

Assumption: "draining" indicates a complete emptying of all contents.

Fact: The human body contains, on average, 6 Quarts of blood.

Fact: The capacity of an average man's stomach is approximately 2 Quarts.

Question: Even if the stomach could stretch to 3 times it's normal capacity to accomodate a victim's blood, why is it that we never see so much as even a "slight pooch" on any vampires after they've fed?
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[> Re: A question of volume -- change, 16:55:30 12/20/01 Thu

Assumption: A vampire kills by draining the blood from it's victim, sucking it out of them.

Assumption: "draining" indicates a complete emptying of all contents.

I'm pretty sure that you don't have to drain the entire six quarts to kill someone. I don't know how much blood you can lose, but I bet losing 3 or 4 quarts is enough to kill most people.

The other thing is that vampires appear to be pack hunters, and more than one of them will feed on a single victim. For example Harmony's gang in "The Real Me" shared a shop keeper and a census taker. In "The Harsh Light of Day", Spike's gang shared someone they had chained to a wall.

So, you don't need to drain someone completely to kill them, and there will probably be more than one vampire doing the draining.
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[> [> Re: A question of volume -- pagangodess, 20:39:10 12/20/01 Thu

I'm thinking, that even if only a little blood is sucked out, the rest would just bleed out, if there is a punture of any major artery.
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[> [> [> Re: A question of volume -- GreatRewards, 08:24:36 12/21/01 Fri

Every time we see a victim, there are the tell-tale puncture marks on the neck but NO pool of blood. This leads me to believe that the victim's blood is completely drained by the vampire(s).

Even when we see the attack and KNOW that it's just one vampire and not a pack of them, there's NO blood.

I'm certain a vampire doesn't tidy up after himself.
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[> [> [> [> Re: A question of volume -- Jules, 02:54:59 12/25/01 Tue

after a living being dies, their heart stops and consequently their blood stops flowing. no blood flow, no bleeding out. especially if, say, 2 or 3 quarts of their blood has already been drained.
and a sidebar: i don't recall seeing any vampire on the show feed for an extended period of time on any one victim save for angel when he needed buffy's blood to cure him (which i take it basically meant replacing most of his own blood supply) and dracula (who was doing it more out of lust than need, so there's a savoring element involved). they don't seem to drain anywhere near all of their victim's blood by any means - i'd venture the poor souls die of shock before their hearts ever stop.

just my overthought $0.02.
-jules
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[> Re: A question of volume -- maddog, 07:24:20 12/21/01 Fri

I think the draining concept can't be taken literaly. They probably just drink until they can start to feel the change.
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[> [> Re: A question of volume -- GreatRewards, 08:16:59 12/21/01 Fri

what "change" is that?
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[> [> [> Re: A question of volume -- SugarTherapy, 19:08:54 12/21/01 Fri

Well, as Darla told us, when they're siring, they drink until the pulse starts to slow.

Sugar
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[> Re: A question of volume -- Maxwell, 19:21:47 12/22/01 Sat

"Fact: The capacity of an average man's stomach is approximately 2 Quarts." Even if this is true, a Vampire is not a "man". The change may cause a different stomach configuration, for example some or all of the blood may pass directly into the Vampires own veins.
Lord of the Rings site -- Drizzt, 17:59:40 12/20/01 Thu

Hopefully this link will work;)

http://pub.ezboard.com/thelotrmoviesitegeneraldiscusion
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[> OnM I have a request -- Drizzt, 18:10:48 12/20/01 Thu

My link above did not work; oh well.

My request OnM is PLEASE do a comprehensive movie review of The Fellowship of the Ring?

I allways love your Classic Movie of the Week and I think that movie will be a classic eventually. It was ausome! But you could describe it more elloquently than me.
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[> [> I'd like to see that, too, OnM, so long as Masq didn't mind! -- Marie, 04:14:32 12/21/01 Fri

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[> [> I think the real question is if OnM minds -- Masq briefly looks up from her sunny/70's weather in Arizona, 08:43:11 12/21/01 Fri

Joss speaks re: overextended, new series, etc. -- squireboy, 07:41:56 12/21/01 Fri

A brief post from Joss at the UPN board (Cross-posted from the Shelter):

"me talkin'
Posted by: Joss - Dec 20, 2001, 10:11 PM
Hey-oh. Just thought I'd log long enuf to say, new show, cool, but the rumors of my demise re: buffy are greatly exaggerated. I've got every ep for this season figged, as well as the main thrust of next season. Still keepin' the faith, wanted you to know.

Ooh-Ah-hey."

So he claims to still have his head in the game. As darrenK and I have been discussing, is there enough of Joss' head in the game?

Regards,
squireboy
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[> Re: Joss speaks re: overextended, new series, etc. -- darrenK, 12:14:28 12/21/01 Fri

Thanks, Squireboy.

I'm glad he knows we'd be worried. That's an encouraging sign.

But, the real question is whether he'll keep writing and directing episodes?

Doesn't he know that that's the candy?

dK
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[> What's the URL for the Shelter, please? -- Tanker, 07:42:41 12/22/01 Sat

Does that site archive the VIP posts from the new Bronze? James Hsiao, who archived the old one, is only doing the BronzeBeta now.
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[> [> URL for the Shelter, please? here you go, Tanker -- squireboy, 19:43:02 12/22/01 Sat

www.bronzeshelter.com

I'm not sure if the upn board is archiving VIP posts. I don't really hang out there much and just tend to see the VIP posts from UPN when they get cross-posted elsewhere.

squireboy
Curiosity - where are you located? -- Darby, 07:53:08 12/21/01 Fri
I'm old enough to have spent most of my life without the ability to randomly interact with people from all over the world (yeah, I could randomly dial phone numbers or take up ham radio, but I didn't). Now that I'm doing it on this board, I'm curious as to just where y'all are.

I'm in upstate New York, USA, between Albany and Syracuse, in the Southern Adirondack Mountains. Yes, there are mountains without people in them in New York - there's lots of wilderness up here. No vampires that I've noticed, though...

This is easy - you can just put it in a message subject line...
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[> Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town) -- Kimberly, 07:56:54 12/21/01 Fri
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[> In the southeast Kootenays... -- AurraSing, 07:59:00 12/21/01 Fri
Which means the southeast corner of British Columbia.My family lives in a valley in the Rockies,about 20 mins away from a pretty little ski-resort town.Needless to say I'm thigh deep in snow right now,but it does make for a very pretty Christmas.Anyone want to join me in cutting down my Christmas tree tomorrow???
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[> [> Another BCer! More CDCWs!! -- Wisewoman, 09:15:42 12/21/01 Fri
I'm in Vancouver and Rufus is in Tsawassen. The Canadian count on the Board is going up...squireboy, Aquitaine, Nina... who am I forgetting? Of course! LadyStarlight in Alberta.

I'm sure there are others.

;o)
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[> [> [> Cool......... -- AurraSing, 09:19:28 12/21/01 Fri
I've been in contact with Ruf for a while now-maybe the next time I head to Vancouver to visit the in- laws we should have a "mini-hoot",otherwise known as a gal's night out??
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[> [> [> [> Sounds like fun... -- WW, 12:44:44 12/21/01 Fri
Just let me know where and when!

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> A hoot would be great........:):):) -- Rufus, 16:01:23 12/21/01 Fri
Just tell me when and where...:):):)
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[> [> [> Home is where you hang your hat -- Brian, 09:34:48 12/21/01 Fri
Born in Boston - "If you don't know where you're going; you don't deserve to get there."

Spent time in Troy, NY - "I'm not a tourist; I live here! Damn New Yorkers!"

Now reside in Louisville, Ky - "Ya'll come back now, you hear!"
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[> [> [> Buffy friendly BC -- matching mole, 09:34:46 12/23/01 Sun
It's great to know that there are so many intellectual Buffy fans in BC. I've never lived there myself but feel quite attached to it because so many of my friends and family have at one time or another. My mother still lives on Vancouver Island. She doesn't own a TV though!
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[> [> [> [> Vancouver Island (OT) -- WW, 15:06:16 12/25/01 Tue
Hey, my parents are on the Island, too. In Qualicum Beach. It really is a small world, isn't it?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Vancouver Island (OT) -- matching molew, 20:27:01 12/26/01 Wed
Sure is! My mom lives in Bowser, a tiny town a little to the north of Qualicum Beach. My sister used to live on Hornby Island but has since moved to Alberta.
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[> Toronto, Canada -- squireboy, 08:20:09 12/21/01 Fri
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[> I'm in Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil -- FelipeRijo, 08:27:11 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Northeast Massachusetts -- Shaglio, 09:02:43 12/21/01 Fri
I used to be in the Merrimack Valley area, but have recently moved to the North Shore area.
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[> [> Re: Northeast Massachusetts -- Shaglio, 10:26:12 12/21/01 Fri
Since everyone else is being more specific, I will too:

Born in Lawrence, MA 27.5 years ago

Moved to Danvers, MA a couple months ago

(as if any of you know where those places are anyway).
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[> San Francisco, CA -- Deeva, 09:13:12 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Unseasonably not-freezing Chicago! -- Dyna, 09:29:54 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- Sharon, 09:37:57 12/21/01 Fri
Johannesburg, South Africa, where S5 has been taken off 3 episodes from the end!!
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[> between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA (NT) -- nay, 10:01:05 12/21/01 Fri
I said no text so why are you looking. :)jk
~nay
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[> S.F. Bay Area, CA -- fresne, 10:09:46 12/21/01 Fri
On the quaint and lovely island of Alameda.
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[> Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City -- Rob, 10:23:17 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Iowa City, IA (NT) -- ghostdawg, 10:37:10 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Small town Ontario, near Ottawa -- pagangodess, 10:52:20 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Portsmouth, New Hampshire -- maddog, 10:58:37 12/21/01 Fri
Born in Portsmouth, New Hampshire...still live there...age 24.
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[> An hour west of Washington DC ;-) -- The Second Evil, 11:07:25 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania -- vampire hunter D, 11:12:31 12/21/01 Fri
ANy vampires around there that can turn me?
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[> Seattle, Washington, USA -- GreatRewards, 11:14:05 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Indianapolis, Indiana (NT) -- cat, 11:38:44 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Beautiful, sunny, Denver, CO, USA -- Dichotomy, 11:39:11 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey' -- CaptainPugwash, 12:00:00 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Currently, Phoenix. -- Copper, 12:46:56 12/21/01 Fri
But I've lived in the Northwest, West, Midwest, MidAtlantic, and Southeast.
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- Zoey, 13:48:57 12/21/01 Fri
CLEMSON, SC
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[> New York, New York -- Sophie, 13:54:15 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Brooklyn, New York -- darrenK, 14:03:29 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis -- JLP, 15:10:47 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Re:/Hackney, East London. UK -- yabyumpan, 15:55:24 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Rock Hill, South Carolina -- Wilder, 15:52:32 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Vienna, Austria -- grifter, 16:06:20 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Baghdad by the Bay (SF) -- A8, 16:33:11 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Me, too! Or three, or four, or five... -- Masquerade, 18:52:22 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Hey Masq, aren't you s'posed to be on vacation? -- A8, 17:00:22 12/22/01 Sat
Hope it's nicer there than here ('The roof is leaking and the wind is howling...')
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[> Northwest NJ (relocated from WV) -- Shiver, 17:00:53 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: Northwest NJ (relocated from WV) -- Kimberly, 12:22:41 12/26/01 Wed
Hey, someone ELSE has made that transplant? (OK, I'm from Oakland, Garrett County, MD, but it's darn close.) Can you satisfy my curiosity and tell me where in WV? I'm now in Mahwah, Bergen County, NJ.
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- njbethany, 18:07:26 12/21/01 Fri
Atlanta, GA
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[> Port Orchard, WA-Across Puget Sound from Seattle -- Calluna, 18:16:20 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta -- LadyStarlight, 18:31:20 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta -- CW, 08:14:34 12/22/01 Sat
Wow! That's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been! I envy you!
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[> Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN... we have no snow right now. -- SugarTherapy, 19:00:19 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Manhattan, New York City, New York (NT) -- Cynthia, 19:16:46 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> (nt) (nt)? shouldn't that be ny, ny? (like me!) -- anom, 21:08:57 12/25/01 Tue
Looks like we got several Noo Yawkuhs here, & others nearby--we oughta get together some time!

Oh, & if you want history, I grew up in DC, aside from 5 early years in Wantagh, Long Island, N.Y. Moved to NYC in 1980.
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- Clarity (and Polyhymnia), 19:35:01 12/21/01 Fri
Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
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[> West Island of Montrťal -- Aquitaine, 20:51:44 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia -- OnM, 22:23:35 12/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Ditto. Only North of Philly. -- VampRiley, 05:50:06 12/22/01 Sat
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[> [> Sounds like we're a stone's throw from each other. -- rowan, 10:47:05 12/26/01 Wed
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[> [> [> Maybe the 4 of us should have a get together -- vampire hunter D, 12:32:46 12/26/01 Wed
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[> Brooklyn, New York -- Dariel, 22:49:56 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Berzerkely -- Jen C., 23:46:37 12/21/01 Fri
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[> Phoenix, Arizona -- Cactus Watcher, 08:06:22 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Be'er-Sheva, Israel (NT) -- Tracton, 11:55:22 12/22/01 Sat
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[> warner,new hampshire (NT) -- zoomusicgirl, 19:38:24 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- JoRus, 19:49:29 12/22/01 Sat
Just N of Seattle, WA, in the US.
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[> Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border -- celticross, 20:51:38 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Long Island, New York -- NonHostileSeventeen, 21:08:43 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Perth, Western Australia -- Leaf, 21:22:05 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Re: Curiosity - where are you located? -- valkyrie, 22:17:26 12/22/01 Sat
Fort Worth, TX (NT)
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[> Akron, Ohio -- Slayrunt, 22:54:32 12/22/01 Sat
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[> Urbana, Illinois, USA -- matchng mole, 06:30:43 12/23/01 Sun
Which is near the Indiana state line about 200 km (being true to my roots) S of Chicago in the middle of a vast cornfield.

Have only been here for a year - previously

Phoenix, Arizona
Chicago, Illinois
Norman, Oklahoma
St. Catharines, Ontario and elsewhere in the Niagara Peninsula

These are only my physical homes my psyche resides in
the Rideau Lakes of eastern Ontarion, the Chiricahua Mts. of SE Arizona, and on Vancouver Island.
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[> Suburb of Paris -- Stranger, 08:01:55 12/23/01 Sun
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[> IRVINE CA (5 minutes sounth of disneyland) -- skpe, 12:26:50 12/23/01 Sun
IRVINE CA (5 minutes sounth of disneyland)
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[> [> Boston, Ma -- Hauptman, 13:01:04 12/23/01 Sun
And I seem to be the only Buffy Fan here. I have tried to convert and infect, but no takers. Everyone seems to be into Dark Angel, X-Files, WWF and Smallville here. Ick. I thank God for this forum and for you guys.
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[> [> [> Re: Boston, Ma -- Shaglio, 05:55:13 12/24/01 Mon
I'm a Buffy fan :)
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[> Milwaukee, Wisconsin -- Sebastian, 13:44:51 12/23/01 Sun
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[> Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey -- Tillow, 17:21:53 12/23/01 Sun
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[> Annapolis, MD -- MrDave, 22:30:41 12/24/01 Mon
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[> Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :) -- Lunarchickk, 07:49:18 12/25/01 Tue
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[> Southeastern PA, USA -- rowan, 10:45:49 12/26/01 Wed
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[> Birmingham, England - are there no other Brits here?! -- Juliette, 15:20:59 12/26/01 Wed
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[> [> Yeah, me! Manchester, England -- Loki, 20:21:11 12/26/01 Wed
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[> [> [> Me too - London -- Rahael, 02:43:23 12/27/01 Thu
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[> [> Yea - Oxford, England! -- Diagnoztix, 16:26:11 01/01/02 Tue
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[> [> [> Re: Yea - Oxford, England! -- Naomi, 16:24:52 01/02/02 Wed
I'm at uni at Bangor, Wales most of the time but I am currently home for the holidays in Oxfordshire.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yea - Oxford, England! -- Diagnoztix/Nevermore, 16:36:24 01/02/02 Wed
North or South of Oxford?
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[> [> Yes: Portsmouth, England. -- John Burwood, 04:28:41 01/03/02 Thu
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[> [> Edinburgh, Scotland here -- zooey, 18:11:41 01/06/02 Sun
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[> Sweden -- Millan, 00:26:29 12/27/01 Thu
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[> San Jose, CA -- cynesthesia, 21:35:27 12/28/01 Fri
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[> East Texas -Howdy to all -- Spike Lover, 19:06:56 12/30/01 Sun
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[> [> Randolph Massachusetts!!! -- caltrask55, 10:51:33 12/31/01 Mon
Born: 1/17/71

Randolph MA
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[> [> [> Cool, another Masshole here! -- Shaglio, 05:25:06 01/02/02 Wed
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[> [> 50 miles west of Sunnyvale, TX -- JBone, 16:05:39 01/08/02 Tue
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[> Ireland -- JCC, 12:39:43 12/31/01 Mon
We still love Buffy over here.
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[> [> Arkansas -- Forsaken, 14:13:09 01/01/02 Tue
No hillbilly jokes please.
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[> Central Florida -- Humanitas, 08:41:26 01/04/02 Fri
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[> About twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts -- Earl Allison, 08:55:33 01/04/02 Fri
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[> [> Re: About twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts -- Shaglio, 10:46:21 01/04/02 Fri
Here I was thinking I was the only BuffyBuff in the area and you people just keep coming out of the woodwork :)
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[> [> [> Re: About twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts -- Caligo, 07:49:43 01/09/02 Wed
I'm actually from Boston! And I know a ton of people who love Buffy. I met most of them when I worked at Spooky World this past season. Man, can't wait for October!
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[> Sunnydale -- Eric, 17:02:21 01/04/02 Fri
Actually I'm temporarily living in Oklahoma. But my home is actually Santa Barbara, California.
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[> Schenectady, NY -- Isabel, 19:39:06 01/06/02 Sun
We're practically neighbors!
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[> [> My wife works in Schenectady -- Darby, 07:03:25 01/07/02 Mon
...at the Museum.
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[> If you're still looking, N. Wales - and that sounds so dull compared to some of these other places! -- Marie, 06:31:13 01/07/02 Mon
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[> [> Purely Subjective! -- Eric, 20:58:41 01/08/02 Tue
I'm currently in Oklahoma, the state that God forgot. I'm actually from Santa Barbara, California which is a great place. I have lived in the desert, which is better than it sounds (if you focus on introspection and geology). North Wales sounds exotic and fun!
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[> Roswell NM -- tost, 17:23:16 01/07/02 Mon
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[> Durham, NC baby! that's DOOOOOORHM to Dick Vitale -- Neaux, 07:29:00 01/08/02 Tue
Durham, NC baby! that's DOOOOOORHM to Dick Vitale
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[> Norman, Oklahoma, USA -- Rattletrap, 11:28:11 01/08/02 Tue
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[> Home base is Atlanta, but during the academic year I reside in Philadelphia -- Talia, 18:41:21 01/08/02 Tue
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[> Kansas City Kansas, just Over the Rainbow from Oz, and not the Werewolf that I know of -- BobR, 10:59:45 01/09/02 Wed
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[> Provo, UT -- verdantheart, 11:56:40 01/09/02 Wed
Yes, they *do* allow it to be aired here, despite the many self-appointed protectors of our virtue we have here (sorry, I just saw an article on the news about local efforts to hide "offensive" magazine covers, such as those on Glamour and Cosmo).
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[> By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter) -- Little One, 12:27:43 01/09/02 Wed
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[> Phoenix, AZ: Hell Mouth o' the SW, where the Suns are More Important than Buffy, Arg!! (NT) -- Duquessa des Esseintes, 19:34:46 01/09/02 Wed
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[> [> Hellmouth of the SW - What an appropriate name! -- matching mole, 08:17:06 01/10/02 Thu
When I lived there I thought that the existence of Phoenix was the only downside to living in Arizona. Hope I haven't offended any loyal Phoenicians.
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[> Atlanta/Decatur, Ga (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida -- Chew-lean, 20:12:04 01/09/02 Wed
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[> New Orleans, LA USA -- solstice, 23:12:48 01/09/02 Wed
This is my first post on this board. Hello everyone!!!
A Holiday Greeting -- Liquidram, Esq., 08:33:36 12/21/01 Fri

Happy Holidays! ** (See Footnote 1)
__________________________________________________________________

This space intentionally left blank

______________________________________________
** Footnote 1:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an
environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practised within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all . . . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2001, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great, (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "AMERICA" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, colour, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

The wishee further agrees to hold harmless and indemnify the wisher, along with its heirs, assigns, officers, directors, shareholders . . .
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[> Brilliant! Never knew saying "Happy Holidays" could be so legally binding! And to you too... -- Rob, 08:56:14 12/21/01 Fri

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[> Happy Winter Holiday to all the ATPoBtVS posters herein! -- purplegrrl, 12:19:04 12/21/01 Fri

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[> And right back atcha, Liq! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 12:51:38 12/21/01 Fri

Law suits be damned! I'm just gonna say it... Merry Christmas from a politically correct Solstice- type.
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[> Re: Merry Christmas Big L -- Dedalus, 16:08:55 12/21/01 Fri

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[> Happy, healthy, prosperous, and passionate holidays to all! -- rowan, 17:05:25 12/24/01 Mon

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[> [> Welcome Yule! -- Brian, 20:24:25 12/24/01 Mon

Good friends and posters strong,
Who help our merry throng
With joyful word and song.
Lift a cup of holiday cheer
That peace will reign here
And everywhere all year.
Cast care aside
Let joy abide
At Yule tide.
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[> That just made my whole brain hurt...............;) -- Rufus, 22:05:13 12/24/01 Mon

Only someone under the influence could have written such a thing...."you are not obliged to say anything, but anything you do say may be given in evidence"......at the next chat you attend to tell us how your seasonal festivities have gone.
Reading recommendation: "The Queer Buffyverse" -- Dyna, 10:40:43 12/21/01 Fri

There's a quite interesting essay on this blog site that I'd like to recommend. It deals primarily with "Into the Woods," but the overall theme is the "transgressive" nature of most romantic relationships in the Buffyverse.

One point that clicked for me was the author's comment that in thinking through Spike/Buffy, she had "moved from considering its appeal as something dark and perverse to something I'd more broadly identify as transgressive." I've been struggling to express why the B/S relationship speaks to and appeals to me, and this essay did a lot to help me clarify.

I also love her analysis of the Anya/Xander relationship: "gay, gay, gay!" Rewatching ITW after reading this was a really eye-opening experience.

http://www.drizzle.com/~eliade/blog1.html#12.18.2001a
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[> Thanks ever so for the recommendations...... -- AurraSing, 11:06:55 12/21/01 Fri

Gotta love a day you can add two (the blog and Jilian's as well) thought-provoking bookmarks to your 'favourites' file.
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[> Re: Reading recommendation: "The Queer Buffyverse" -- clandestina, 17:51:43 12/21/01 Fri

i thought this was a great essay. it makes me think about willow- how she was attracted to oz and then tara, two "freaks" (a werewolf and a lesbian witch)- and then remembering how in "the wish" and "dopplegangland", Evil Willow was almost morbidly (ha) fascinated with humans.

it's great to read essays like this.

by the way, hi i'm new, been lurking awhile :)
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[> About Xander, I couldn't Disagree more! -- Wolfhowl3, 19:44:32 12/21/01 Fri

Xander is not gay.

He is what I like to call, "True Man".

He isn't affaid to be who he really is. Most guys today feel that they have to put of a brave Macho front, so that no one will see there "Weakness" of having feelings.

Xander has always been in love with Buffy, and for the last few seasons, it has been in the Big- Brother way that they mentioned in "Restless". It is because of this big brother love, and his abaility to show his is true self that he was able to say that Reily is "The once in a Life time Guy" He saw his Little sister making a Huge mistake, (in his mind, In my mind, I'm glad Captian Cardboard left!), and he tried to prevent it.

Anya is not a replacement for Reily to Xander, because Xander is Soooo a sub. He has been attacted to Dominate women since day one! Lets look at the list.

Buffy
The Praying Mantis, form "Teacher's Pet"
Inca Mummy Girl, from "Inca Mummy Girl"
Cordelia
Willow
Vamp Willow, from "The Wish", Note: This was Vamp Xander
Faith
Anya

All of these ladies, with the execption of Willow, (when we first met her), are Strong Powerful women, who dominate and control Xander is one way or another. To a sub like Xander, they are the perfect type of woman!

Just my thoughts, hope you enjoyed reading them, (and forgive me about the spelling!)

Wolfhowl
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[> [> but he's been a wuss in relationships :-) -- Shiver, 12:34:23 12/22/01 Sat

Cordelia led him around by the short hairs on a daily basis. When it comes to the romantic type love, Xander has rarely been the initiator and has often been uncomfortable interacting with women. His most serious relationships, Cordelia and Anya, are both strong women with almost overwhelming personalities who definately "wore the pants" in most parts of the relationship.

Of course "wussiness" does not equal "gay" but submissiveness is often seen as a "feminine" stereotype.
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[> [> [> Re: but he's been a wuss in relationships :-) -- Wolfhowl3, 07:02:52 12/23/01 Sun

Of course "wussiness" does not equal "gay" but submissiveness is often seen as a "feminine" stereotype

But it is not exclusively "Feminine", (Speaking as a male to has many Sub leanings)

Wolfhowl
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[> Re: Reading recommendation: "The Queer Buffyverse" -- Vonnie, 20:52:04 12/21/01 Fri

Interesting stuff. A couple of days ago, I posted a question on a fic recommendation list as to why the current Buffy/Spike arc seems to resonate so strongly with those who often exclusively read/write slash (something I've noted time and time again in this past two months). I wondered whether it had to do with the dark undertone inherent in B/S, the taboo of the "mortal enemy sex" often seen in a slash couple (Mulder/Krycek and Angel/Linsey immediately come to mind), but this essay really imbues the issue with a broader thematic stroke. I love her choice of the word, 'transgressive'; it says so much more than 'dark', or 'edgy', or 'forbidden'. It lifts the relationship in question from the realm of the wrong and self-destructive to something reckless and utterly brave; it wears its misshapen passion proudly like a badge. And it is perfect for B/S.

I gotta bookmark this blog... (her take on the demolition sex in "Smashed" is spot-on as well. Exactly my reaction when I first saw it, said 10 times more viscerally and eloquently than I ever could.)
To all you Pagans out there.............. -- vampire hunter D, 12:08:14 12/21/01 Fri

Happy Winter Solstice!

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[> Thanks, D! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 12:42:56 12/21/01 Fri

Nice of you to remember! Have a good one, yourself.

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[> Re: To all you Pagans out there.............. -- Shaglio, 12:55:13 12/21/01 Fri

Well, my roommate loved the yellow vanilla-scented candle I got her for Winter Solstice. I snuck into her bedroom this morning, while she was in the bathroom getting ready for work, and left it in a giftbag on her bed. She loved it and was shocked that I had even remembered. She was also impressed with the "research" I did to get the correct colored candle. So thanks to all those here who helped advise me as to what to get her :) And as far as the "reasearch" goes, you guys will be my little secret ;)

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[> [> Re: To all you Pagans out there.............. -- Kimberly, 11:47:04 12/26/01 Wed

Great to hear, Shag. And you DID do research; you just found the least painful/most fun way of doing it. Sounds good to me.

Hope your holidays were wonderful! (And continue to be so.)

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[> Martha Stewart's Pagan Yule -- WW, 16:22:56 12/21/01 Fri

December 1~ Bury turkey carcass from Thanksgiving under the Holy tree to thank the tree for the six bushels pruned to decorate the halls with. Draw pentagram in the dirt with silver dust to prevent pet She-Wolf from digging up the bones.

December 2~ Order 20 cases of Irish whiskey to be left for the Good Folk on Yule. Re-bury turkey carcass, re-do pentagram in gold dust.

December 3~ Draw pentagram on each sheet of toliet paper using silver marker for that festive holiday touch. Have staff re-roll the paper onto Victorian "crackers" for that surprise element. Re-bury carcass, consecrate concrete block, spray paint with gold and use as planter for poinsettia. Place over carcass.

December 4~ Take She-Wolf to vet for eating poinsettia. Send out telepathic party invitations to 200 witches, shaman, and druids for Yule party.

December 5~ Ex-mother in law's birthday. Send Victoria's Secret nightgown rubbed with stinging nettle. Begin receiving telepathic RSVP's for Yule party.

December 6~ Hand dip 365 gold candles for Yule party. Consecrate using Sacred Lady Martha of the Stewart Clan Yule Oil (available at a K-Mart near YOU!). Have staff clean up the mess. Pick up She- Wolf at vets.

December 7~ Harvest herbs from the garden and crochet 200 herb pillows for guests. Stuff with the microwave-dried herbs.

December 8~ Have the staff get their arms tattooed with suns now so there will be time for the redness to disappear before the party. Have staff decorate the Yule Tree.

December 9~ Repaint Nativity Scene so figures represent Isis, Osiris, and Osiris. Re-bury turkey. Take She-wolf to the pound. Buy new wolf pup. Hire dog trainer.

December 10&11~ Fly to Europe to grub for truffles. Pick up whiskey at the Irish distillery on the way back.

December 12~ Use Dremal tool to carve chalices out of quartz crystal balls for the party. Roll the hand dipped candles in the crystal dust to make them sparkle.

December 13 Coven meeting! Get symbolically pregnant by the HP during symbolic Great Rite ritual. Give hand forged athames as gifts to coven members.

December 14~ Get six foot Yule Log from the local land co-op. Decorate with holly, ivy and hand dipped candles rolled in the crystal dust.

December 15~ See herbalist for private itching that has been going on since last coven meeting. Burn all undergarments. Have factory send new ones in red and green.

December 16~ Daughter home from college. Send her to herbalist, too. Invite local fauna to graze on the front lawn for decoration and hang wreaths over their necks.

December 17~ Climb great oak and cut mistletoe using golden sickle. Leave hand cast silver coins at base in thanks. Burn sage now to cleanse house so the smell will be gone in time for the party. Pick up golden robe at dry cleaners and pack in lavender.

December 18~ Appear on Oprah to show my support for her coming out of the broom closet. Bake chocolate moon pies with banana cream filling, symbolic of the return of the sun. Bake "stained glass" Pentacle cookies.

December 19~ Bake brownies laced with valerian and give to fundamentalist neighbor. Butcher, gut and pluck 150 pheasants from the backyard coop and marinate in consecrated wine. Harvest wild rice from the paddy out back.

December 20~ Yule party. Carve sliced carrots to resemble miniature suns. Put red dye in the men's toilet tanks, green in the women's toilet tanks. Have staff do the cooking while I dress in my ceremonial robe. When guests and TV crew arrive, assume meditative pose.

December 21~ dawn - give birth to symbolic sun god on the dining room table as the guests and TV crew look on. After guests leave, collect empty whiskey bottles drunk by the Good Folk and recycle. Take a nap and dream of what I'll do for Imbolg.

;o)

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[> [> Made me chuckle WW. Thanks. -- A8, 16:30:14 12/21/01 Fri

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[> [> Re: Martha Stewart's Pagan Yule -- Calluna, 18:11:12 12/21/01 Fri

Good Goddess, that was a hoot! A Joyous Yule to one and all!

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[> [> Gee, I knew I was doing it all wrong...;) (N/T) -- Wurlitzer, 18:11:37 12/23/01 Sun

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[> Thanks! The sunrise here was AMAZING today -- SugarTherapy, 18:45:54 12/21/01 Fri

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[> Thanks, and happy holidays to everyone! -- Lunarchickk, 07:53:12 12/25/01 Tue

OK, I missed posting this on Yule, and don't think I've ever "come out of the broom closet," but hope all the other pagans had a wonderful solstice and that everyone else has magical holidays as well! :)

Helping Buffy Slay Her Financial Demons (article) -- Shiver, 16:59:30 12/21/01 Fri

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/advice/20011219a.asp?keyword=

Some spoilers through S6, so only if you dare :-)

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[> Hysterical! (NT) -- Spike Lover, 17:17:11 12/21/01 Fri

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[> Good point about the cell phone -- vampire hunter D, 12:35:01 12/22/01 Sat

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[> [> Buffy Inc -- Brian, 13:56:41 12/22/01 Sat

Dear Prospective Client,

Welcome to Buffy Inc. where our motto is:

NO SUPERNATURAL BEASTIE THINGY,
NO GHOST, NO VAMPIRE, NO DEMON,
NO GIANT INSECT, NO HELLGOD
IS TOO TOUGH FOR OUR SLAYER!

Hereís a sample of our current price list:

Vamps out for your blood?:
Vampire Slayage: $1000.00 per slay.
For 50 bucks extra you can have the stake bronzed as a memento of the event.

Bad Witch puttiní the spell on you?:
$2000.00 to be clean, green, and mojo free.

Demons cluttering up your attic?:
$3000.00 for our special slice and dice removal.
Removing gross demon goo from the carpet is only 100 bucks extra.

Giant snakes curling round your bedpost?:
$4000.00 gets you a fine snakeskin for you living room wall
Itís guaranteed to be a terrific conversation piece!

Giant insects are trying to kidnap you for ritual sacrifice?
$4000.00 to squash Ďem.
Here at Buffy Inc. we put snakes and insects in the same removal category.
And if you got both of them, thereís a 50% special now through April Foolís Day.

Hellgod occupying your body?
$$$$$? If you have to ask, you canít afford our quick and friendly service.
However for $2000.00 extra, weíll let you video tape our consultant, Willow the Wonder Witch, as she does her sexy, dark-eyed magic.

So donít delay, pick up the phone, call now :
1-800-Slayage
And let Anya, our friendly receptionist, put you on the path to being Supernaturally Free!

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[> [> My theory: In the Buffyverse, cell phones don't exist! -- Rob, 09:58:25 12/28/01 Fri

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[> [> [> They use cell phones on Angel. -- Maxwell, 18:26:09 12/28/01 Fri

They use cell phones on Angel. Itís part of the whole LA scene, the lawyers use them a lot and it was kind of a running joke the first season that Angel kept forgetting that he had one. But then again on Angel they actually charge for their services.

Darla/Angel Favor -- SugarTherapy, 18:42:34 12/21/01 Fri

My friend and I are working on a D/A site, and we thought it would be nice to have some writings about the couple. Not fanfic - more like essays. And we were wondering if any of you would like to contribute something about them. It can be about their relationship and any aspect thereof, or anything pertaining to either of the two. It would be really really helpful and greatly appreciated. I'll make sure to credit whoever writes one and probably feature you all on a thank-you page. Either respond to this message with them, or email them to me.

Forever in your debt,
Sugar
Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- OnM, 22:00:52 12/21/01 Fri

*******

Bless the free man, bless the slave
Bless the hero in his grave

............ The Strawbs

*******

Pretty near every year around this time, I rewatch A Charlie Brown Christmas. For the past several winters, Iíve done so by pulling out my much beloved laserdisc copy of the show, and thus do heartily enjoy not only the pristine picture and sound quality, but even more importantly, a version free from annoying commercial interruptions. Iím not a big fan of incessant advertisments in the first place, but at this time of the year, I really do find them to be aggravating to a substantially greater degree. Now, it might seem rather strange for a professed atheist/humanist to complain about the commercialization of the Christmas holiday season, but being an atheist doesnít mean I donít have respect for Jesus. On the contrary, I get easily pissed at people who have taken the life of one of the worldís greatest philosophers and turned it into just another way to crank up the bucks-making machine. Gifts are fine, I like gifts, but itís supposed to be the thought behind them, you know? Itís kind of like we live semi-normally for 11 months and then go all schizo-phreno come what should be the happy Solstice season.

Speaking of consensual mental illness, in a chatroom session with Dedalus and several other ATPo folk a while back, I had occasion to mention the brilliant writer and satirist George Orwell, and how one of his greatest accomplishments as a lord of words was to introduce the concept of Ďdoublethinkí to the world. If youíve read 1984, you will certainly recall the term, and itís definition-- the ability to hold two opposing concepts in mind simultaneously, and accept both as being true.

While I have no way of knowing if humans are the only animals on the planet capable of this apparent paradox of cognizance, there is little doubt that it is a manifestly startling concept. After all, engaging in this type of thinking entails, by itís very nature, accepting a logical fallacy. For example, you canít state that the quantity Ďthreeí is different from the quantity Ďfourí, then accept simultaneously that it is not different. Poor, well-intentioned Winston Smith learns otherwise, much to his chagrin, and the tyrannical government of Orwellís famous dystopia relies heavily on this ability to bend the populace to itís will.

Now, how is this different from most religious belief? By which statement, I donít mean that the idea of God or a creator is inherently a logical fallacy, because while the evidence to support such an idea is often highly questionable, there is also nothing currently within our collective human sphere of knowledge that definitively precludes the existence of said deity. What I have a problem with is how we seem to split our brains in two to accept that on the one hand, a god exists and has laid out specific plans for how we are supposed to be living our lives, and then on the other hand we feel free to ignore those plans whenever it seems convenient to do so.

The Ďconvenienceí can take many forms-- social, political, economic, biological etc. Fírinstance, (and Iím not singling out any one particular church/religion, this is just one Iíve had some personal familiarity with, so Iím gonna go with it example-wise) the Catholic church forbids the use of any Ďnon-naturalí form of birth control. By Ďnon-naturalí, they mean anything other than abstinence, because as I understand the reasoning employed, passively avoiding conception by either not having sexual relations at all, or by having them during the times when a woman is unfertilizable is OK, but actively preventing the possibility of conception when the woman is fertilizable acts against the will of God by not Ďgoing forth and multiplyingí.

Now, we start with a biological situation and then graduate to the realm of the political when we realize that if the church is also the Ďstateí as far as the law is concerned, then the above godly dictum wonít be just a suggestion, it will have the force of Earthly, mortal legality behind it. Sooner or later, someone will defy Ďthe lawí and trouble will ensue. The person who broke the law has no defense, however, because if God is real, and Godís command is to Ďgo forth and multiplyí, then you either have to do that or face whatever consequences God has in mind for you. The political state is also just doing Godís bidding, so you have no recourse with them either-- everything is all perfectly logical.

Returning to the Realverse, it seems reasonable to ask why, if Ďthis is all so perfectly logicalí, do millions of supposed Catholic couples around the world ignore this precept and limit the number of children born to them by artificial means? There are really only three answers. One, they are engaging in doublethink, accepting simultaneously that they can/cannot use artificial birth control. As stated previously, this is an inherent logical fallacy. Two, they disagree with the churchís teachings on this particular matter. This line of thought is erroneous also, since the church points out that if itís teachings arenít infallable, then what good are they? They are either the expressed word of God, or they arenít. This leaves us with Three, they claim to be True Catholics, but actually arenít, and just wonít admit to it. This last possibility, the only truly sensible answer, is the one people appear to have the hardest time dealing with. Why? Because it means that you, a mere mortal meatsack, have challenged God, and this is not generally seen as a good thing to do.

Now wait just a minute, I hear you saying. You are presuming quite a lot when you state that the Catholic church is the only True Word of God. There are many, many religions ardently followed by many, many other godly folk. They all claim to have an equally righteous handle on theological Truth, and... and... oh, drat. They canít all be right, can they? Stupid logic...

So, whatís wrong with taking the best aspects of many faiths, and forming some sort of composite, personalized theology that leads us all towards more socially, politically, economically and biologically positive behavior? Other than that it requires us to think for ourselves, and take full responsibility for whatever consequences our actions bring about as we live out our lives, whatís the drawback? Oh, yeah, that last part. Thatís a bitca, no doubt about it. How much easier it is to lean constantly and heavily on the Almighty, and so live a faultless, blameless life, just like a child.

Perhaps we are still children in the eyes of the Creator, but isnít it reasonable that just like all children, at some point in time we have to take what weíve learned from our elders and go it alone, like, grow up already? Maybe, in fact, this is just what God expects us to do, and s/heís still waiting for us to get the message, quit our doublethinking and our ego-inflating disaffection with reason and go forth and become? Thatís my humble vote, anyway.

That, and suggesting you rent or buy (or, heck, give as a gift!) the following movie sometime between now and yearís end!

Whereby, in keeping with the sensibilities of the current holiday season, and my own particular theological perversities, this weekís Classic Movie is the wonderfully made and deeply spiritual Jesus of Montreal, written & directed by yet another talented Canadian artist, Denys Arcand.

Jesus of Montreal tells the story of a theatrical presentation of The Passion, held yearly for over four decades by a Montreal Catholic church. Once very popular and well-attended, the changing times have brought about a loss of interest, and so the church elders and administrators present the resident priest with the task of Ďbringing it more up-to-dateí and so reclaim the proper public appreciation. The priest, an affable individual who harbors a long-term fondness for the theater arts, enlists the aid of a young but highly regarded actor, Daniel Coloumbe (Lothaire Bluteau), to not only perform the crucial role of Jesus in the play, but also gather other talented actors of his choosing to fill out the remaining parts for the production. He even suggests that Daniel rewrite the original script to take into account newer discoveries about the life and historical times of the Son of God.

The result of the actorsí efforts is a stunning, powerful, deeply moving rendering of the Passion, and in short order the good word gets around. The Montreal public begins to turn out in droves, critics and commentators rave, and the church... well, the church is very unhappy to say the least. The problem, it seems, is that the new Passion is too... passionate, not in a romantic sense, but the even more disturbing and dangerous intellectual/political sense. The men in charge understand all too well that Jesus of Nazareth was a radical thinker in his time, and if his beliefs were truly taken seriously today, he would still be as subversive as ever. Jesus, after all, professed the belief that God and Man were one and the same, and that a church was merely a building where the like-minded believers could meet with one another. He certainly didnít envision the hierarchical divisions of the contemporary church, and the multifaceted political extensions of that organization into the role of Earthly government.

What makes this film even more intriguing is that while the actors, on one level, are defending the right to continue performing in what they feel is a worthwhile artistic achievement, individually they also begin to take on personal characteristics of the historical figures they both inhabit and interact with. This is especially true for Daniel, who slowly and quietly becomes more Christ-like in his behaviour (in the best sense of the term), and so enables ripple effects that begin to influence others in similarly profound ways.

At its heart, this is a movie about the love people have for theater, but like the best theater, it diligently explores many layers of experience and meaning, all of which exist simultaneously without contradiction. I recommend it highly, and hope it reinvigorates your commercial-tainted soul.

And thatís what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown.

E. Pluribus Cinema, Unum,

OnM

*******

Cinematus Theologa Technicalum du Jour:

Jesus of Montreal is not available on DVD, according to the Internet Movie Database, but is shown as being available on VHS. The review copy was on laserdisc. The film was released in 1989, with a running time of 2 hours. The (U.S. release of the) film is presented in French and English (mostly the former) with appropriate subtitles. I canít state for certain what the original theatrical aspect ratio was because my copy, despite being on laserdisc, appears to be a paníníscan (cropped for TV) version. Whatever is left still looks pretty good photography-wise, despite some odd compositional framing at times. Cinematography was by Guy Dufaux, with editing by Isabelle Dedieu. Production design & art direction was by FranÁois Sťguin, set decoration was by Frances Calder & Simon La Haye, and costume design was by Louise Jobin. The sound mix is standard Dolby stereo.

Cast overview:

Lothaire Bluteau .... Daniel
Catherine Wilkening .... Mireille
Johanne-Marie Tremblay .... Constance
Rťmy Girard .... Martin
Robert Lepage .... Renť
Gilles Pelletier .... Fr. Leclerc
Yves Jacques .... Richard Cardinal

*******

Miscellaneous:

Some of you lucky campers have already seen Lord of the Rings, and pronounced it a goodly work, but Iíll have to wait a week or two before Iím likely to get the opportunity. Iíll venture my opins at length as an adjunct to this column at such time, but here are the reviews of two of my fave critics, should you have a critical need to feed, indeed:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-lord19f.html

http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/l/lotr1.html

*******

The Question(s) of the Week:

Mucho many folk were no doubt waiting in line, or had purchased advance tickets to experience LOTR ASAP when it finally debuted this week. I confess that I personally donít have the patience to wait in lines more than about 10 people deep, and dollar-wise I tend offset my rather substantial video buying habit by frequenting bargain matinees and weekday (as opposed to weekend) screenings whenever I venture theaterward. I also never buy popcorn or drinks, which can easily cost as much or more than the film. Does this make me a cheapskate? Iíll leave that up to you to decide, although that isnít the actual QotW.

The Actual Question is a sort of a mini-poll, since Iím always curious and/or nosy about the habits of my fellow ATPo boarders. Answer as many or as few of these as you like, organized any way you like. Iíll post my own situation a little later on, possibly next week:

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

As previously mentioned, next week I plan to do a poll for what you feel have been your favorite flicks of 2001, so start giving it some thought. Iíd like to see not just a simple list, but some reasons, long or short, why your choices really rang your bell.

Until then, as always, post Ďem if you got Ďem. If at all humanly possible, have yourself a great holiday season, and see you next week!

*******

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Rufus, 22:28:37 12/21/01 Fri

The Actual Question is a sort of a mini-poll, since Iím always curious and/or nosy about the habits of my fellow ATPo boarders. Answer as many or as few of these as you like, organized any way you like. Iíll post my own situation a little later on, possibly next week:

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

I almost never go to the theatre. I find the sound is so loud I have to wear earplugs (just call me Usher). So I'd say I go to the movies about 3 times a year. I wait for most movies to come out in VHS or DVD.

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

I go with my Spouse of friends, never been to a movie alone.

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

If there is crap there I will eat it...:):):) Usually some pop and chocolate or frozen yogurt.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

I prefer an almost empty theatre so I don't have to listen to people talking all through the movie.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

I've honestly lost count of videos I've rented....and right now forget which movies I've seen.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

There were only a few that I didn't like in some way...and I've forgotten which ones.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

There is only one we go to in our area and the theaters are small and the seats comfortable enough. It's the volume they insist on that keeps me out of theatres in general.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

We have a Sony tv. and Panasonic DVD player, sony VCR, but no home theatre setup. My tv is only 10 years old..:):):)

********************************

Now wait just a minute, I hear you saying. You are presuming quite a lot when you state that the Catholic church is the only True Word of God. There are many, many religions ardently followed by many, many other godly folk. They all claim to have an equally righteous handle on theological Truth, and... and... oh, drat. They canít all be right, can they? Stupid logic...

So, whatís wrong with taking the best aspects of many faiths, and forming some sort of composite, personalized theology that leads us all towards more socially, politically, economically and biologically positive behavior? Other than that it requires us to think for ourselves, and take full responsibility for whatever consequences our actions bring about as we live out our lives, whatís the drawback? Oh, yeah, that last part. Thatís a bitca, no doubt about it. How much easier it is to lean constantly and heavily on the Almighty, and so live a faultless, blameless life, just like a child.

I had a big beef with the church about the heaven/hell situation. The idea that someone that had lead a honourable life can go to hell because they didn't accept Christ as their savior made no sense to me. I always felt that if you were a kind compassionate human being, who give a flying fudgesicle what your "religion" is. I find that upon looking as different religions, they all say very similar things when it comes to ethical living ect. Why would "heaven" be an exclusive club for only a priviledged few of a certain faith, when heaven should be a potential state for all of us regardless of how we translate our beliefs into a particlar form (Christian, Jew, Islam, Buddhist ect.) So, for me I may be a Christian, but I don't think I'm going to heaven before someone of a different faith. I think much of the interfaith fighting would stop if everyone lived the way their faith teaches them. In short, I don't care what someone believes in, I look to what they do and say to base my final judgement on their character.

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[> [> About that heaven 'n hell stuff... -- Solitude1056, 23:57:29 12/21/01 Fri

Thought you 'n OnM might enjoy this quote:

"The reason there's so many problems with religion in this world is because some people take literally what were symbolic elements. They all believe the same thing essentially and yet they're willing to die about the details. But religion, myth and fairytales need to be reinvented and those who manage to do that cleverly are the ones who are saving us from oursleves."

- Viggo Mortensen
quoted in Black+White (photography zine)
December 2001

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[> [> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Cactus Watcher, 07:59:29 12/22/01 Sat

My answers to most of the questions are similiar to those Rufus gave, so I'll chime in here.

Back in college I used to go alone to movies occaisionally, because I too like mostly empty theatres, and other people felt guilty about going to a movie in the middle of the week. For example, I saw the first very first showing of Star Wars in Columbus, Ohio, at a matinee alone. Of course, that time the theater was packed. Then I spent an hour and a half at dinner trying to explain to my usual group of six to ten friends how good it was without blabbing everything.

I, too, don't like the volume of the sound in theaters.

I usually watch movies on video or DVD now, and with someone. I only rent movies that I've heard good things about. Occaisionally, we get klunkers, but not very often. For example, I thought American Beauty was complete crap. I saw it all, but alone. The woman I started to watch it with insisted we stop after about fifteen minutes.

I don't eat much during movies. Never got in the habit.

My VHS player is in a smallish TV. (Her TV set-up is bigger.) I have a largish computer screen to watch DVD's. It's a lot more sharp than old-fashion TV and the price of HDTV isn't in my range yet.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I also agree completely with Rufus' words on heaven and hell. It's the reason I don't consider myself a christian anymore. Probably the only thing that stuck with me from my one and only class in philosophy in college was Tillich's idea of a god beyond god, one free of all our mortal prejudices. I've tried to write sci-fi with aliens who believe in such a god. It isn't easy, because it seems that to live is to have prejudices on some level. I can free the aliens of the prejudices of this religion or that. But, I can't free them of my prejudices entirely.

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- MayaPapaya9, 23:39:53 12/21/01 Fri

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

Pretty much every weekend.

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

Family (I'm 16, still in school so no spouse!) or friends

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

Sometimes I'll get water but that's it. I don't drink soda (hate it) and the popcorn is all artificial buttery and fattening and disgusting. If you're sitting next to a person who's eating buttered popcorn, you can SMELL it from where you're sitting. Disgusting.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

Depends. I saw "O" in a crowded theater and there were some obnoxious people in the crowd and I would say their random comments enriched my moviegoing experience. Other times it's nice to be in a deserted theater and get the best seats in the house. One thing I hate is attending kiddie movies because of the millions of idiotic bratty children who are running around. They talk, cry, yell, whine, get up to use the bathroom multiple times, spill their drinks....no good.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

Over the two-and-a-half month long summer break I saw fourteen movies in the theater. Usually it's not so much though, cause of school and other things, but summer is long and lazy and I was seeing multiple movies per week.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

I like all movies!! I don't know what's wrong with me but I have yet to see a movie that I truly hated. There's always some redeeming qualities. Actually wait, I can think of one recent movie that was just stupid, "Heist." If you're gonna see a stealing movie see "Ocean's 11". It was ten times better than "Heist", which I almost fell asleep during.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

There's a new AMC 14 in Saratoga that's really nice, the chairs are huge and there's lots of space and it's organized in such a way that the person's head in front of you is NEVER in the way. At Century 16 in Mountain View there's less space and there's generally a person blocking your view, but the food is lots better.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

Downstairs, we have a a big screen, DVD player and VCR, no surround sound yet but my brother and I are working on that. Upstairs, we have a regular-sized TV that's older than I am and shuts off whenever it feels like it. Oh my god, it shut off randomly during the "Bargaining" premiere, do you understand how much I was freaking out? Of course I was taping it but still....There was a crucial five or ten minutes that I had to wait till the next morning to watch! We called the repairman for the second time but I am of the opinion that it's just time to throw the thing out. Anyways we have a VCR upstairs too and a PlayStation2, which plays DVD's but not well.

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Solitude1056, 23:52:26 12/21/01 Fri

I go to a theater maybe once or twice a year - the last few films I saw in theaters were LotR, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and Sixth Sense. It's usually at least one other person with me if not six more, which is a change from my salad days when I frequently took myself out to matinees if no one else was around to join me.

I skip the popcorn 'n sodas if it's a long movie - as a matter of fact, I highly recommend a bathroom trip *before* the adverts roll before LotR.

Fullness o' theater doesn't matter to me, since a group's vibes can make a difference - there was spontaneous clapping at several points during LotR... and not being the only one to jump and/or scream during Sixth Sense was a bit of a relief.

I rent every now and then, when I'm hanging out by myself and want a silly movie like, oh, George of the Jungle. My collection's about 20 videos, mostly ones with things that explode or catch on fire or otherwise make lots of loud noises (Replacement Killers, Blade, Matrix) while my housemate's half is mostly little-known art house pieces (Marat-Sade, The Last Wave, Performance). We switch off, but we meet in the middle with an agreement that Cocteau was a true genius, and that 90% of today's movies suck rocks (except for the ones where things explode, catch on fire, or otherwise make loud noises). We also agreed that Tomb Raider wasn't even worth the cost of rental, even if Angelina Jolie is the hottest thing since sliced bread.

I'm usually pleasantly surprised by movies, especially if I remember to keep an open mind. (Helps to have a housemate with such widely different tastes.) Dogma wasn't nearly as bad as I'd heard, yet Gladiator put me to sleep. (I'm not kidding. That thing was borrrrrring.)

Washington DC's got some gorgeous old theaters, and there's still a few in the NoVA area that have full setups and balconies and perfect sound systems. The rest are passable, even if the environment isn't top o' the line.

Gee, OnM, you should know all about my home system, seeing how much fussing I had to go through to set the damn thing up. After years of a regular 27" TV, my housemate and I split the costs of a 32" TV. Now he's happy to watch movies that require a bigger screen (like Bladerunner, which I first saw on - not making this up - a 12" TV), and I get to see Buffy and Angel clearly while sitting all the way on the other side of the room. Nifty! Eventually, though, I'll get around to hooking up the receiver and the speakers to get true surround sound whatsahoosie, but I'm not fussed over it.

That enough info for ya? ;-)

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[> [> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Brian, 04:55:23 12/22/01 Sat

OnM - you the man! Stretching those artistic, political, and philosophical quanderies. Wonderfully meaty lately.
Have a super Holiday season!

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Andy, 05:00:06 12/22/01 Sat

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

A few times a year, I guess. It really depends on how many movies are out that I want to see and how bored I am.

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

Usually alone. None of my friends like moviegoing (too much of a ripoff for them. They prefer getting drunk somewhere :)) Not to mention that my tastes are too odd for them anyway. Most people haven't even heard of the movies I often end up seeing. I don't think I can imagine not being alone while seeing Donnie Darko :) If I'm visiting family, however, we do go out together.

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

Never. Way too expensive and tastes like crap.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

I generally prefer sparse attendance. Sometimes big crowds are fine but the potential for obnoxious behavior goes up the more people there are.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

I'm pretty good at picking movies that I'll enjoy seeing. I don't outright dislike very many I see in theaters. For example, while I didn't think Planet of the Apes was very good, it was at least interesting to watch and I'm glad I saw it. Least favorite was probably Heist. My dad wanted to see it so I went with him, but I just don't like heist films.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

I'm from Houston and got spoiled by the Tinseltown theaters down there. Very nice places to see movies even if there are so many damn screens that it's like navigating an airport :) I live in the DC area now and there are very few theaters that match up to that. The Uptown is very nice, though, and there are some cozy art theaters around.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

I've got a modest 27" tv and dvd player. I'd like to get a surround sound setup, and I can afford it anytime. Problem is I've got no space to hook it up. My room is too small :) Whenever I get a place of my own, however, where I can actually have a proper amount of space to spread out in, that's the first thing I'm getting. Then a widescreen tv will be next :)

Andy

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Wisewoman, 08:39:23 12/22/01 Sat

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?
Once a year (at most)

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?
Spouse, or brother

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?
A drink, usually

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?
Sparsely attended, because I'm claustrophic!

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?
One in a theatre. Probably 50 or 60 on cable or video

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?
Really enjoyed probably 5 of them. Really disliked only 1 or 2

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?
Yep...we have several Silver City theatres in the suburbs

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?
Just the basics; I'm happy, spouse will never be satisfied until we have a
media room with widescreen, lol

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Rahael, 09:34:09 12/22/01 Sat

Thanks for that review OnM! The movie sounds great.

Now for your questions. Its only this last year that I have become a regular film goer, mostly because I discovered the National Film Theatre, and because Buffy has now spoiled me for television.

I rarely ever go and see new releases, so the fact that the NFT always has something I would like to see (old, new, unusual and ordinary) combined with a great cafe to meet friends means that I have been going once a week at least.

I've never seen a film alone, though I have been known to go to the opera or ballet by myself. I usually go with one other friend, but sometimes also a larger group of people, depending on the obscurity of the film.

If I ever eat during a film, its ice cream. Or nothing at all. I have never had popcorn during a film.

I like the row in front to be empty, otherwise I'm not really fussy. Because I avoid recent releases, I manage to avoid really crowded theatres. I'm particular about where I sit though - it has to be dead centre, and quite near the front.

I would say I've seen about 30 + films this year, but can't seperate out where. I only got a tv/video for my own room this year, and a dvd player last month, so I'm slowly building my collection. Because I pretty much pick exactly what I'm going to see, I can't remember really disliking any films this year. I really loved 80% of the films I've seen so far, and the other 20% elicited a more mixed but thoughtful response. I can remember hating Notting Hill a couple of years ago. I still can't remember why I bothered to go and see it.

The National Film Theatre is a good cinema, comfortable seats, and the audience are very well behaved (no talking, and even clapping at the end of most films).

I don't have serious movie watching equipment at home. This is the person who only got a cd player in January. I can wing it on mediocre quality, as long as the film I'm watching is good.

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[> [> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Brian, 10:11:27 12/22/01 Sat

:

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater? 3 to 4 a year

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people? Usually alone

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never? No food, drink, ever

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why? the fewer the better. I lath people who talk or sit in front of you and block your view

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video? 3 and too many to count at home
6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?
75% yes, 25 % no
7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?
A few movieplex places
8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

I've got an 80's 19" TV and 2 80"s VCR's. When Buffy comes out in DVD, I will get a machine to play it on.

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- A8, 16:57:38 12/22/01 Sat

OnM, once you see LOTR, I'd be curious to read your take on the film score. Personally, I've never been a big Howard Shore fan. At times,the score really detracted from the otherwise wonderous quality of the film, and other than the fact that about 150 pages were excised from the story, was the only weakness in the film as far as I could see(At least upon my initial viewing). Maybe I've watched too much Monty Python, but there were a couple of points in the film where the score made me think of those Terry Gilliam animations in Holy Grail or the scene where the gang proclaim "Camelot, Camelot, Camelot" (to which Mr. Gilliam snorts, "it's only a model").

Anyways, to your questions:

1. Typically got to a movie theatre 2 or 3 times a year. Once on my birthday to escape and a couple other times i there is something really compelling to see.

2. I generally go alone.

3. I'm a popcorn junkie. Plain though. The yellow grease that passes for butter should be on the Superfund list of hazardous materials.

4. I like a full theatre with an amped crowd.

5. In addition to the 2 or 3 mentioned above, I watch, on average, a movie a week on video or DVD.

6. I've enjoyed them all. Since I discovered DVD, I've managed to accumulate quite a large library (100+ discs), and have yet to watch most of them, although the majority or films I have seen already.

7. Local theatres in SF are generally comfortable, but with an excessively loud sound system (THX--- the audience is now deaf!), and sadly, generally poor projection (nobody seems to know how to do a smooth reel change anymore).

8. Small tv, hi-fi vcr, a decent DVD player hooked via analog connections to my stereo system and via optical cables to some small powered Roland digital speakers. I really have an eye on one of those Aquos 20" flat panel TV's, but $3K is a bit steep for my wallet these days.

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[> [> Re: Howard Shore O/T -- mundusmundi, 12:25:36 12/23/01 Sun

OnM, once you see LOTR, I'd be curious to read your take on the film score. Personally, I've never been a big Howard Shore fan. At times,the score really detracted from the otherwise wonderous quality of the film, and other than the fact that about 150 pages were excised from the story, was the only weakness in the film as far as I could see(At least upon my initial viewing). Maybe I've watched too much Monty Python, but there were a couple of points in the film where the score made me think of those Terry Gilliam animations in Holy Grail or the scene where the gang proclaim "Camelot, Camelot, Camelot" (to which Mr. Gilliam snorts, "it's only a model").

Really? I thought it was one of the best, most fitting scores I've ever heard, at times pulse- quickening, at others achingly delicate. Certainly preferable to John Williams' work in recent years, which is always overly shrill and tone-deaf to nuance. Matter of personal taste, I guess.

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[> [> [> You're right mm, music is always a matter of personal taste, and I'm perhaps too critical... -- A8, 16:15:41 12/23/01 Sun

...since most of the score behaved the way a good score should (unobtrusively enhancing the visuals and story). I'm not a big John Williams fan either, but that's not to say both guys aren't fine composers. They certainly are. LOTR was just such a good movie, those few moments where I really noticed the film score were distracting to me.

While we are discussing LOTR, at my showing, there were quite a number of audible "rip off" comments at the film's end by people who apparently were unaware that this was just the first of a three-parter. I'm curious if anybody else had a similar experience. I don't think you need to have read the books to enjoy the film. In fact, the unresolved nature of the ending would have been fine for me even if I hadn't read the books. My only wish is that Peter Jackson had made the film 30 minutes longer to include Tom Bombadil and the Gollum backstory as well as a little more lead up to the Prancing Pony. It's a little old fashioned, but they could have placed an intermission in there like they used to do in the olden days. I know, not possible in these days or multiplexes (pack 'em in, get 'em out, bring in the next group). I'm sure U.S. exhibitors were upset that the movie was as long as it ended up in it's final form since that meant fewer showings per day. Typically America these days. Short attention span and happy ending hungry, no matter how inappropriate to the art form. Mr. Jackson didn't make too many compromises though, so kudos to him.

A8

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[> [> [> [> Re: S'ok. You're the musician, so I happily defer.... :) -- mundusmundi, 16:45:42 12/23/01 Sun

While we are discussing LOTR, at my showing, there were quite a number of audible "rip off" comments at the film's end by people who apparently were unaware that this was just the first of a three-parter. I'm curious if anybody else had a similar experience.

Amusingly, when the closing shot faded to black and the big director's credit came up, my dad, whom I took along with my mom today to see it, turned to me and exclaimed with some alarm: "What happened? They forgot the ending!" He stopped his charge toward the projection booth once I reminded him that there were three books, three movies. (Both my folks loved the film, I should add, and I liked it even more the second time.)

Dunno if anyone else in the audience had the same reaction. Most sat quietly watching the end credits -- a sure sign of an instant classic. (Lucas had better be on top of his game for the next SW, or he's going to look pretty ridiculous.)

At the risk of adding to the rash of Bakshi-bashing nowadays, (here's an amusing critique of his well- meaning but disastrous '78 animated Rings fiasco. Hate to kick a guy when he's down, but the review is too hilariously accurate not to share.

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[> [> [> Re: Howard Shore O/T -- Solitude1056, 22:44:52 12/23/01 Sun

Actually, I agree. I'm lukewarm about John William's stuff, since he seems to take the idea of "let the audience know what's going on, musically" just a leetle too seriously, to the point of thwacking us over the head with "now we are feeling martial" or "now we are getting geared up for the final battle" or "now we are feeling scared." Shore's a bit more subtle, but frankly I was disappointed that there wasn't a recognizable theme. Okay, so if you listen to the soundtrack for, say, Beloved, or Last of the Mohicans, each has a theme, a melody of some sort, that's played upon. When listening to the soundtrack, it's downright repetitive... but during the movie, it creates a cohesive backdrop for the characters, quietly pulling a distinctive thread through the whole story. Shore's music was just a bit blander than I was expecting, although I'd rather have it bland and forgettable than pounding at me with thwacky indications of "how I should be feeling at this point."

The only point, actually, where it really bugged me was the final shot of Frodo and Sam heading down the mountain towards Mordor - the music should've been a minor key, perhaps. It just seemed a bit too light-hearted given the intentions and all news of What Mordor Really Is - then again, knowing the average American audience, I suppose a down-note like that for the ending would've been too much of a cliff-hanger sensation.

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[> [> [> [> Re: the "cliffhanger" ending -- mundusmundi, 06:45:59 12/24/01 Mon

More gripes in the paper today from people who felt cheated by the ending. I s'pose Frodo could have hurled a "Hail Mary" shot from the boat all the way to Mt. Doom ("I can make it, Sam!")....

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[> [> [> [> [> LOL. But I would add that he look at his watch (might as well thrown in an anachronism)... -- A8, 17:11:41 12/25/01 Tue

...look at the camera and say "Oooh, better wrap this thing up for you dimwits out there" first.

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[> [> [> [> [> More "cliffhanger" thoughts... -- Rob, 10:57:02 12/28/01 Fri

I think all this fuss about the "cliffhanger" ending is absurd for a few reasons.

(1) This is a trilogy, and even more so, was already a well-known trilogy of books. Would it have been better if the filmmakers had manufactured a contrived "ending" to this movie, just so there would be no cliffhanger? That would have alienated fans of the book, and would have been just plain silly, since this is only the beginning of the story.

(2) Just the subtitle, "The Fellowship of the Ring" should have given people a clue that this was either not the whole story, or part of a larger one. While it is common practice for sequels to be given subtitles, i.e. "Jurassic Park: The Lost World," "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back," "Gremlins II: The Next Batch," the first movie in a series will not usually have a subtitle, unless it's already been planned out as a larger story, as in this case.

(3) People in recent years have lost the appreciation for a good cliffhanger. I think they are the best way to end a movie that could potentially have a sequel. Every horror film of the 80s killed off the bad guy in the first movie, only to have to resurrect him for the sequel, and every sequel after that. Leaving a cliffhanger shows foresight, and gives the filmmakers an easier time of continuing a story. A great example of this is "Back to the Future." For those of you who don't recall, the first film ended with a "To Be Continued..." and the sequel didn't even come out until, I believe, 5 years later! At least, with LOTR, we know it will be out in a year. Recently, I enjoyed the ending of the new "Planet of the Apes." Without giving anything away, I thought it was a great way to not close up the story completely, in the event of a sequel. But, of course, all of these examples are inconsequential, because in the case of the LOTR, from the beginning, the whole story and release plan was decided upon. Even further, "Fellowship" is not only part of a trilogy but the first three hours of a 9 hour movie. Yes, the entire LOTR trilogy has already been filmed. In fact, it was all filmed together as one, mammoth 16-month shoot, and then divided into the three films, based on the divisions in the original books. Would the audience rather sit through a nine hour film than have a cliffhanger at the end of each of the first two parts?

Here's the best solution, if you don't want to wait a year to find out what happens next...READ THE BOOK! :O)

Rob

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More "cliffhanger" thoughts... -- mm, 14:54:52 12/28/01 Fri

All good points, Rob. It's always interesting to be reminded, though, that what we internet folk take for granted is less obvious to much of the general public. Apparently, many folks have no idea that this is the first installment of a trilogy. And while I'm grateful Jackson didn't resort to an interminable scroll at the start of the movie, I think I might have added something simple like "Part I of III" to the "Fellowship of the Ring" subtitle, just to alleviate any potential confusion.

About the only other way LotR could have been made was as a TV miniseries, but that's always a dicey business. For every good one, like SciFi's recent, remarkable Dune saga (an immeasurable improvement over the David Lynch debacle), there are ten or twelve dogs. Nothing was wrapped up with a big red bow in Fellowship, but it still ended on a lovely grace note. Other than Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I haven't seen a more satisfying movie all year.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, an interestingly (at least to me), the ending of the new POTA... -- A8, 20:22:40 12/28/01 Fri

...is right out of Pierre Boulle's original novel "Monkey Planet."

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- matching mole, 07:05:49 12/23/01 Sun

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

Has been dropping steadily over the last decade. Early 90s in Chicago probably once a week (lots of options). Mid to late 90s in Phoenix probably once or twice a month. My wife has developed back problems and hasn't been to a theatre since summer of 1999. I've been five times since then.

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

Previously with my wife and sometimes others. Recently alone.

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

Usually.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

If the audience is respectful then I don't care as long as I can find a good seat. If I judge a film is likely to attract a noisy audience then I want to go when the theatre will be empty.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

Two and one. Since we moved we really have gotten out of the movie habit.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

Two (Nurse Betty and Such a Long Journey) were great. One (Harry Potter) was OK.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

As long as it meets my minimum standards picture/sound quality have never been a huge deal with me (I would care if I was watching a film with really good cinematography). I haven't been to the theatre enough since moving to judge. I do like going to older (pre WW II), more ornate theatres and we have one of those here - been once.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

Seven year old TV and VCR. TV is only 13"! We do sometimes discuss getting a bigger TV but it hasn't been a high priority.

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Neaux, 06:55:23 12/24/01 Mon

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

eh... 2 to 3 times a month..

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

I never go alone.. too creepy. Either with my wife or my friends.

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

When I was young I was often broke. But now, refreshments are good. My wife is a big popcorn eater.. so yes.. and it helps makes bad movies good!

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

Full theaters are great on opening weekends.. They especially help Horror Movies. If its a movie I really want to hear.. like a Kevin Smith movie.. the less the audience.. the better.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

Good Lord. I buy anime on dvd at least twice a month (if that counts). Average about 2 movies a month in theater.. 1 rental a month... do the math.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

Most I enjoy this year.. it was a good year.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

Great theaters everywhere.. yet I must say.. the last movie I saw LOTR.. the sound was quite horrible.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

Call me the 15-year old.. with a 25 incher, vcr.. and playstation 2 for dvd player

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[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - December 21st 2001 -- Shaglio, 08:49:37 12/24/01 Mon

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

Maybe once a month or once every other month

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

Usually with a friend or two. I hate going alone. In fact, I hate doing ANYTHING alone. I get depressed when people aren't around

3. Do you by popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

Never. Too expensive and I don't like to drink a gallon of soda during a movie because I don't want to have to get up to pee and miss something.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

I don't like it to be packed because there is a greater chance of roudy, obnoxious moviegoers. Hooting and holloring or just getting up every ten minutes making lots of noise with the swishy nylon jackets.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

maybe 10 in the theatre. Possibly 20 - 25 at home.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

I really enjoyed all except "Waiting For Silverman."

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

Yes to all of the above. We have several theatres in the area that are fully decked out due to their competition with one another.

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

My 19' TV is only 13 years old ;) My VCR is nice and I have a Playstation 2 for DVDs. I haven't noticed any lack of DVD quality with the PS2 that I can't easily attribute to the ancient TV.

On a side note, the local ticket prices were in the $8.00 - $8.50 range, but recently one of the theatres dropped its prices down to $6.00 :)

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[> Questions of the Week--My Answers -- Rob, 11:54:31 12/27/01 Thu

1. How often do you typically go to the movies, by which I mean out to an actual movie theater?

I go very often, depending on what is playing. On an average, I go once a week. Lately, I have gone as much as two or three times a week, with all the many worthwhile movies out now.

2. Do you go alone or with a friend, spouse, or a group of people?

I usually go with my best friend, when he's not out with his girlfriend.

3. Do you buy popcorn or sodas or other refreshments? Always? Occasionally? Never?

I occasionally buy a soda, but when I do I usually end up having to go to the bathroom in the middle of the movie, so I do that rarely.

4. Do you prefer the theater to be full or fairly so, or do you prefer it to be sparsely attended or nearly empty? Why?

This is a tough one! For some movies, I like a full house, as long as I have a good seat. A laugh-out loud comedy, such as "American Pie 2" works better when you're laughing along with a full audience. It just gives you a bigger rush. Another movie that I found worked very well with a full house is "Moulin Rouge." I saw it in NYC, and the whole audience was whooping, cheering, and applauding after every song. It was very exciting. On the other hand, I do not like a full house for a children's movie, namely because there are always screaming children and parents recapping plot points and answering their questions. "Harry Potter," "Monsters, Inc.," "Shrek"...I went to the 11 p.m show for all of them, to avoid the kiddies.

5. How many films have you seen in the last year in a theater? In your home on video?

I make it a point to see just about everything that comes out, except for war movies. I'm just not into them. In the last year, wow, I'd say I've seen at least 40-50 films. On video...365, probably almost double that amount. I watch at least one film a day.

6. Of the films you saw, approximately how many did you really enjoy? Really dislike?

I usually absolutely fall in love with anywhere from 3 to 10 of the movies released each year. Of the others, I range from either enjoying parts to disliking completely. I'd say though that I'm a pretty easy and fair critic. If a movie has even a few elements I enjoy, I'll regard it favorably. I'd say, then 10% of the movies out each year, I love...75% I enjoy...and 15% I loathe.

7. Are any of your local theaters truly excellent technically, i.e. great sound and picture quality, stadium seating, comfortable environment, etc.?

Absolutely! I only go to the Leows Multiplex at the Palisades Center (for those of you who don't know, it's the second-largest mall in the country). Great sound, great picture, and reclining seats. That is the way to watch a movie!

8. Do you own a serious home theater setup, or do you just sorta wing it with a 15-year-old 25" TV and a VCR? Are you satisfied with whatever you happen to have?

I was winging it up until recently, but I just could not enjoy it. I am a movie perfectionist, so I recently got a serious home theatre system, including brand-new flat screen Sony TV, 5 speaker surround sound system, and new Nuon DVD player. I am in heaven!

I really enjoyed answering your questionnaire, and I cannot wait for your best movies of 2001 poll next week! I actually already prepared my list and I'm chomping at the bit to post it next week!

Rob

Just what we needed....A Philosophical Discussion on Buffy's hair.....:):):) Spoilers for Gone -- Rufus, 01:34:29 12/22/01 Sat

Got the doldrums in rerun hell......then go over to

http://www.vidiot.com/Buffy/photos6.html

and take a look at the results of Buffy's angry attack on her hair. A cathartic act that happens for I don't quite know why, but Dawn seems to be involved if you read the spoilers. So, what does the cutting off of the long locks mean in respect to Buffy's Journey? Have fun with this one, have an egg nog and think it over, throw in some chocolate, pet your cat.....reruns are almost over...:):):)

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[> Gasp! Buffy does a Felicity. The horror, the horror! -- Brian, 04:44:07 12/22/01 Sat

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[> [> Re: Gasp! Buffy does a Felicity. The horror, the horror! -- celticross, 20:45:52 12/22/01 Sat

And I was always upset with Felicity about that...here she was making curly hair cool for the frizzy among us (like me), and then she had to go chop it all off. However, I do have to say that the shorter hair does look good on SMG...and I'll be very interested to see how the plot point they fold the cutting of the hair into the story with.

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[> Reminds me of Calista Flockheart (sp?) in the "All About Ally" promo on FX. -- VampRiley, 05:45:31 12/22/01 Sat

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[> I like it! She looks cute! -- MayaPapaya9, 10:58:11 12/22/01 Sat

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[> [> Re: I like it! She looks cute! -- Anthora, 14:04:01 12/22/01 Sat

This looks like its probably before it gets trimmed up -- fairly soon after post-hacking. I'm sure the hairstyling department will clean it up for the next ep. ;)

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[> The atack of helmet-hair. -- CW, 11:19:39 12/22/01 Sat

Oh well, it is much better than the Felicity disaster. I personally always hate when a woman with gorgeous long hair cuts it short... I'll get used to it... Maybe it's a wig ;o)

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[> Not bad -- vampire hunter D, 12:26:15 12/22/01 Sat

I still think she looks better with it long. I think girls always look better with their hair longer.

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[> [> Men almost always do :-) -- Shiver, 12:37:35 12/22/01 Sat

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[> [> [> Of course... -- VampRiley, 14:46:19 12/22/01 Sat

You need something to hold onto when you're...wrestling. Yea, wrestling sounds good. :o)

VR

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[> [> Re: Not bad -- grifter, 03:17:58 12/23/01 Sun

I like women with short hair, so itīs "yay!" for me ;)

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[> Re: Just what we needed....A Philosophical Discussion on Buffy's hair.....:):):) Spoilers for Gone -- SugarTherapy, 15:50:41 12/22/01 Sat

It's not the first time her hair has been this short - remember season 2? I like it.

Sugar

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[> buffy bobs her hair -- anom, 20:39:03 12/25/01 Tue

Well, not exactly--it isn't that short. But for some reason I got a mental picture of it that way--like Buffy let her natural color grow out & cut it short--earlier the same day I read Rufus' post. With a feeling it was part of a hunkering down, getting down to business. And maybe wanting to tone down her femininity/sexuality in reaction to her night w/Spike, & maybe as a more general way to distance herself from her feelings. Not that I think short hair always means that...although I do tend to associate the crewcuts (on men) of the '50s w/the emotional repression of that decade!

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[> [> Re: buffy bobs her hair -- Aquitaine, 11:04:00 12/26/01 Wed

Interesting take on the hair cut, anom. I don't know whether I'm 'normal' or not, but I always make huge hair decisions when I am emotional as a way to gain control over my life, myself... For this reason, I tend to see a drastic hair cut as a breaking away from repression rather than a manifestation of repression. But I can see how it could be both.

- Aquitaine (who is very thankful our heroine's name is Buffy and not
Bernice!)

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[> [> [> What does cutting the hair mean? -- Rufus, 12:26:32 12/26/01 Wed

Someone that is supremely pissed off may cut their hair in frustration, but cutting the hair or changes in the hair can also signal an entrance into the adult world. Long hair has been thought to be something for the kiddies. Women have bobbed their hair or worn it up to signal their entrance into the world of adults. So, when Buffy cuts hers, will it signal a drifting past adolecence, or will she just be signalling how angry she is at a situation?

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[> [> [> [> Internal vs. external -- Solitude1056, 13:35:49 12/26/01 Wed

Either way you look at it (positive or negative indicator), a drastic change in one's appearance usually signals a wish to make the external reflect the internal. If one has graduated from school and is ready to enter the adult world, cutting hair from the slacker mullet or long cheerleader locks to a professional trim can be an indication that one is now ready to run with the adults. The cut, although perhaps drastic to some, reflects this internal change of perspective.

On the negative side (meaning as a sign of distress), an external change can work in the opposite direction. Someone who has reached a point of extreme self-loathing may sometimes cut hir hair (or dye it, or bleach it) in a dramatically sudden fashion. Unable to change the root of the issue (one's internal self-identity), the person seeks to change the external, hoping unconsciously (or consciously) that this will prompt a change in the internal schema as well. It doesn't always work - as a matter of fact, it usually backfires horribly by instituting a schism between the person's usual self-image and this new unfamiliar self-image that's so at odds with their expectation. At that point, either the person adjusts (by realizing that hair does take a bit to grow back, or will fall out if dyed/bleached again) and begins the slow change to adapt their inside self-image to match their new external one. Or the person freaks even further and ends up hating both their outside image as much as their already loathed internal one.

So, without seeing the episode, it's hard to say. Buffy could be doing either (positive or negative) of the above.

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[> [> [> i'm so glad you recognized the ref., aq! @>) -- anom, 16:39:04 12/26/01 Wed

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[> [> [> [> I was probably the only viewer thinking about "A Diamond as Big as the Ritz" during "Smashed" ;-) -- Aquitaine, 19:39:08 12/26/01 Wed

It was a bloody revelation? -- Leeanne, 02:32:11 12/22/01 Sat

Wasn't that Spike's "bloody revelation"? The possibility that Buffy (if she represents the divine) could love him? That she felt something more than lust during sex?

William the bloody revelation?
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[> Re: It was a bloody revelation? -- Brian, 04:37:45 12/22/01 Sat

Makes the concept of "the earth moved" dangerous and disturbing
Speaking of Spike's chip and the nerd trio -- Gilina, 06:49:38 12/22/01 Sat

The nerds want to take over Sunnydale.

The nerds think that Buffy is an obstacle to their goal.

The nerds have outsourced to a demon to get some evil done previously (the bank robbery).

The nerds believe that Spike is evil.

Warren knows Spike has a chip, but doesn't know what it does (but wants to).

Hmmm. Might the nerds want to deactivate the chip once they understand its function so that Spike will work for them?

But, I believe that Dru told Spike the chip was a lie. I think Spike has chosen to be good now. Because of Buffy.
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[> Re: Speaking of Spike's chip and the nerd trio -- Shiver, 12:38:50 12/22/01 Sat

Since rewatching Crush again I've been musing over what Dru said about the chip. "Electricity lies". And wondering if it has anything to do with Spike being able to physically strike Buffy now.
OT -- reading material: Buddhism and Zen -- pocky, 15:18:25 12/22/01 Sat

does anyone here have any books on Buddhism and Zen to recommend? about the philosophies, beliefs, practices, etc. help would be very much appreciatedddd. thanks guys! :)

~nathan~

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[> Re: OT -- reading material: Buddhism and Zen -- Dedalus, 08:12:48 12/26/01 Wed

Greetings pocky. All the real Buddhists must be on holiday leave, but I can make a few recommendations.

IMO, anything Alan Watts has cooked up is good. So go to the Eastern philosophy section of your local Barnes and Noble, and check him out. Start with his short but to the point What is Zen?, and I would also suggest his What is Tao? book. Thich Nanh That, although that's not the way you spell his name, did some good stuff as well. There is a book about The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching which I have read some of. A very comprehensive look at Buddhism. He also did a book on the Heart Sutra which is pretty famous. I would also like to recommend Violence and Compassion, a series of interviews done with the Dalai Lama that is in book form. And no intro to Zen would be complete without DT Suzuki. I have read his A Beginner's Guide to Zen, but I would suggest reading Watts first. It will be much more accessible after that.

Cheers,

Ded

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[> [> thank you, thank you, thank you! i've been waiting for someone to reply to this post! ^_^' -- pocky, 01:07:20 12/27/01 Thu

Angel destroying Protential Threats to his son -- Moonbean, 17:55:15 12/22/01 Sat

I guess this is a few weeks back now, but wasn't it harsh of Angel to hold Linwood responsible for whatever happened to his son. That just wasn't far.

And also when they made a list of potential threats to his son, Angel indicated that he was going to destroy them before they even attempted to hurt his son. Get them BEFORE they come attack. Where's the fairness in that?

Don't these groups get a trial, or anything? And some of them only threatened Angel's son. Don't they have to at least try to attack Angel's son first?

Remember an eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

Angel turning into exactly the same type as those who he trying to protect his son from.
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[> I don't know-being a parent brings that out in some people..... -- AurraSing, 18:03:56 12/22/01 Sat

Like most parents I believe in being pro-active and try to keep my kids from harm,at least the big types of harm like molestation and broken limbs.Angel has seen so many years of cruelty I can't begin to imagine the sorts of horrors he worries about when it comes to Connor.
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[> [> Re: I don't know-being a parent brings that out in some people..... -- Moonbeam, 19:00:54 12/22/01 Sat

What about Linwood? He is a human being. He has rights.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I can't believe you would use protecting his son from harm as an excuse. Is protecting his son worth killing. Worth being ruthless?

You kill to protect your family? You act preventively to remove a threat so that your family isn't harmed?

That's no excuse to violate Linwood's rights.
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[> [> [> Re: I don't know-being a parent brings that out in some people..... -- Mr. Mann, 21:35:51 12/22/01 Sat

Linwood lost any right to protection when he sold his soul to the Senior Partners and agreed to help bring about some future armageddon.
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[> [> [> [> It was a tactic -- AngelVsAngelus, 08:42:43 12/23/01 Sun

Angel threatened Linwood because he knows Linwood will believe it. He didn't actually kill anyone, human anyway. As for the others on that list, he's had run ins with at least one of them before (The Scourge), and they're all known to be malicious.
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[> [> Angel's approach was quite normal given the circumstances. -- Rufus, 20:41:01 12/22/01 Sat

You will notice that Angel made up a list of people that may have an interest in his son. In the real world we have to worry about child molesters, killers ect. In the world Angel is in, he has them, and all the supernatural beings that want his son for a reason. Some only want to make a soup out of him, some want to dissect him, some want to worship him......none of them are nice people or demons. Angel did something that was natural, he took charge by trying to figure out who was the most threat then take them out before they had a chance to harm his child. There is a problem with that, there are simply too many of them. The list may inform but not ultimately be a solution. Then a solution of a sort came to the Hyperion...all these creatures congregated outside the hotel, clearly a threat, and then they fought each other, killing each other all over an innocent child they wanted. Angel wasn't thinking of taking out the local PTA, he was going after parties that were already clearly evil and would kill his son or use his son for their own gain. They solved most of Angels problems by killing each other. Angel killed only those who were a direct threat, he then dealt with the humans by giving them an incentive to keep his son alive. He basically made it clear to Linwood that he would come after him for anything that happened to his son, I think that was fair. Instead of killing countless to protect his son, he took out an insurance policy in human form. He could have saved time and killed everyone in the room and wait to kill the replacements, but that would be impractical.
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[> [> *too* far out sometimes -- anom, 09:44:40 12/24/01 Mon

"Like most parents I believe in being pro-active and try to keep my kids from harm,at least the big types of harm like molestation and broken limbs."

Of course. But mentioning molestation reminds me of the innocent guy who was beaten up because a couple of "good citizens" mistook him for a child molester whose presence in the neighborhood had been publicized. I don't think they were even parents, just thugs who wanted to find someone it would be "acceptable" to beat up. Angel's motivations are better than that, but he also had good motivations when he killed the Prio Motu demon who was protecting a woman pregnant w/another prophesied child. If he's overprotective of his own child, he could end up killing someone innocent by mistake because he isn't careful enough about identifying who's a real threat & who isn't. Protecting Connor wouldn't justify that.

A couple of notes:

For those unfamiliar w/this US law, the child molester's presence in the neighborhood had been publicized because of "Megan's Law," named for a child who was killed by a convicted child rapist who had served his sentence & lived across the street from her family. The law requires police to notify residents if someone convicted of sexually assaulting a child moves into their neighborhood.

The woman protected by the demon Angel killed was going to have a daughter. Now Angel has a son. Both births were predicted in prophecies. Hmmmmmmm....
@>)
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[> Re: Angel destroying Protential Threats to his son -- Mr. Mann, 18:10:45 12/22/01 Sat

Your kidding right? The people he destroyed have already proven to be a threat to Angel, particulary W&H, I would have wiped out W&H along time ago seeing how they are on the side of evil. I say take preventive action and get rid of them, normal rules of society don't apply, and Angel has every right to do so, or at least tell them up front that he will.
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[> [> Re: Angel destroying Protential Threats to his son -- Moonbean, 18:55:35 12/22/01 Sat

But its' wrong. It makes him as bad as W & H.
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[> [> [> Re: Angel destroying Protential Threats to his son -- celticross, 20:36:38 12/22/01 Sat

Angel's done a lot of wrong things...and quite of a few of those since he got his soul back. If you remember, the very act that conceived Connor in the first place could be considered "wrong" because Angel could have lost his soul. Naming Linwood Connor's godfather was a preventative measure on Angel's part, to keep W&H away from his son.
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[> [> [> Re: Angel destroying Protential Threats to his son -- robert, 21:10:58 12/22/01 Sat

"But its' wrong. It makes him as bad as W & H."

I assume we are talking about the same Wolfram and Hart, bent upon bringing about Armageddon.
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[> I would have done the same -- THe Last Jack, 06:20:27 12/23/01 Sun

You either don't have a family yourself or are just way to PC for your own good. Parents', good ones anyway, strongest instinct are to protect their children from harm. If a group of people were plotting to tortue/mutilate my kid, I would have done exactly what Angel does. This is the real world (well, you know what I mean), not some bible lesson. Violence solves alot of things, and two wrongs can make a right (nothing is black and white). The trick is knowing when this will work, and in this situation, an eye for an eye was definatly the way to go.
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[> [> Re: I would have done the same -- yabyumpan, 07:50:29 12/23/01 Sun

Also, Linwood's no innocent. Lilah wanted to disect Conner, Linwood's her boss, that makes him just as culpable. I sort of understand what you're saying but Angel's not going S2 dark and obsessing about Darla etc, he's trying to keep his son alive against what seems to be , pretty high odds. "An eye for an eye" does make every one blind but "turning a blind eye" when it may result in the death of an innocent, I think is even worse.
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[> [> [> Re: I would have done the same -- Max, 16:09:19 12/25/01 Tue

The only thing that evil needs to prosper is for good people to do nothing.

You must be more ruthless than the bad guys. You have to do what it takes. Use evil to defeat evil.

Better to do evil than be evil.

Welcome back Angel Noir. We missed you!
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[> [> Without hesitation... -- grifter, 13:16:15 12/23/01 Sun

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[> So he's supposed to wait until they're hovering over Connor's crib to take action? -- bookworm, 10:37:55 12/23/01 Sun

It would take a saint or a God to play "wait and see" when the stakes are this high. This is Angel's child, a person he now loves more than anyone else in the world and, quite naturally, will kill to protect. It may be saintly to sacrifice someone you love for the sake of a principle, but it's not very human. Linwood may have rights, but Angel cares more about Connor than he does about Linwood, and that's only natural.
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[> [> Re: So he's supposed to wait until they're hovering over Connor's crib to take action? -- Max, 16:19:38 12/25/01 Tue

Agreed.

You have to take the enemy out before they become a threat.

You can't be all "wait and see" when the stakes are this high. And you can't put "principle" over protecting those you are charged with protecting from evildoers.

You have to be ruthless. You have to do what it takes. After all you are protecting your child. Your way of life!

Out of context it may seem immoral. But what is important is keeping your love ones from being harmed. Angel Noir is one of the good ones, but to protect what he has sworn to protect, he is going to have to adopt some ruthless ways.

During this time we all must understand that. And support Angel Noir. He might even make some mistakes, and innocents may be hurt or even killed, for he isn't God, and sometimes innocents get in the way of the battle of good and evil. But in this war for the future of his son, there is no act that Angel Noir, shouldn't consider doing if it is the best way to protect his son.

Those who don't support Angel Noir, or side with his enemies have thrown their lot in with the evildoers. To these we can't afford to show any mercy. No mercy until the war is won, and Conner is safe.
Short fanfic I wrote for B/S shippers. Enjoy! -- Moose, 23:06:55 12/22/01 Sat

She laid there in his bed, unable to think or move, still wrapped in his embrace. The fog was beginning to lift and she was seeing things more clearly, aware now of herself, how naked she was-- worse, how naked HE was, asleep beneath her. She pulled away from his arms. That was a mistake. He was awake in an instant.

He looked at her for a moment. He could see the fright in her eyes. He could see it creeping up on her. Her cheeks were flushed with it. He would have taken pleasure in the fear if he thought it was him she was afraid of, but he knew better.

"Morning, luv."

She glared at him trying to stay calm, quickly pulling a tattered blanket around her. She started to speak, thought better of it and looked around the room for her clothes.

Why do I keep doing this, she thought. But it was the question she would never ask HIM. He thought he knew, he was that arrogant and that galled her to no end. Even now he was starting to smile like a child with a secret.

"Off again, luv?" Spike said casually, with a bit of a lilt on 'off.'

"Shut up, Spike."

It was a mantra she repeated when he started to say things she didn't like. Unfortunately, it seldom worked. This time proved no different.

"I just thought we could play footsie or read the paper together before you go."

He was grinning now, satisfied with his barb.

She hated that grin. It made her furious. She tried to ignore him gathering the blanket about her, preparing to leave the warm bed and hunt for her clothes. If she only had her clothes, she thought. But before she could escape he grabbed her wrist and pulled her to him.

"Spike," Buffy hissed with warning, but he wasn't paying heed. This was the part he loved and now looked forward to. Some part of him knew he wanted a different ending, though he didn't know quite what that was yet. It confused him, and seared his brain like that chip in his head whenever he tried to think of it. So, like most days, he chose to ignore the problem and act on instinct. Instinct as a vampire kept him alive for over a hundred and twenty-five years. He had learned to go with it.

"Now, now Slayer. Is that anyway to talk to your man?" Spike said, his grin widening, almost leering.

Buffy's eyes flared--YOUR MAN! Seething with anger she ripped free from his grasp and lunged for a lamp intending to smash that stupid grin off his face. But he was faster, expecting the violence, if not the ferocity, and seized her wrist again, causing the lamp to slip and crash to the floor.

The sound of the glass shattering momentarily startled Buffy out of her anger. She looked at him. He wasn't grinning anymore. He was just staring at her, curiously, as if he were studying her. She liked it better when he was leering.

"Let me go, Spike," Buffy said flatly, trying to stay calm. She was bothered that he could get a rise out of her whenever he wanted and was determined to leave cold, calm, collected--the three "c's." Oh, and clothes. Make that four "c's."

"Of course, luv," he said genteelly, releasing her.

She paused a moment, confused. Why was he relenting? But she didn't pause long. Buffy knew better than to give an enemy a second chance. Even if that enemy was her lover. She scrambled quickly off the bed and found her clothes. She could feel his eyes on her as she dressed. It made her feel cheap. But when she turned to voice her outrage he was standing there, looking at her, watching intently.

"I'm not coming back again, Spike. This was it. No more."

Spike just smiled, saying nothing. It was starting to make sense to him. He was beginning to understand, but he wasn't going to tell her yet. Not yet.

For Buffy, that smile made the hair on the back of her neck stand on end.

"I mean it. I can't stand being with you anymore. It disgusts me. I hate it...and I hate you."

She was getting desperate. They could both feel it.

Buffy hated that look in his eyes and that awful smile. The fear was back again. She lashed out with it like a whip.

"You're just convenient. That's all you've ever been."

But it didn't reach him. That smile, all she could see was that smile and his eyes, his laughing eyes.

"I love you," he said simply, still smiling.

"I hate you," she said, intensely afraid now. She wanted to run. She was about to bolt for the door when he pulled her roughly into his arms.

"Close enough."

the end.

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[> Can't forget the 4th "C"...... -- Rufus, 00:15:43 12/23/01 Sun

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[> [> Re: She might do well to try the fifth C later... -- CW, 07:20:04 12/23/01 Sun

It might not cure her of Spike, but a good dose of chocolate couldn't hurt.
;o)

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[> OMG that was soo good. -- nay, 16:08:16 12/23/01 Sun

I was just getting into it. more!! more!!! :) That was good. :) I liked that. :)

~nay

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[> [> Well, you asked for it--here's another one! -- Moose, 01:28:24 12/24/01 Mon

This one is bit longer. Just finished writing it. Obviously, I'm in withdrawal waiting for new Buffy's. If you can't watch something new, write it!! :-)
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The Fear of Blood
by Moose

It's just a dream, Spike thought, cutting through the cemetery, following her.

It's just a dream. This doesn't mean anything.

Buffy was ahead, idly twirling a stake in her hand. Her stark white sweater flashed like a beacon before him. Spike pressed forward. When he wanted, when the hunt was on, he could be as quiet as a cat. He was close enough now to smell her perfume--a sweet, fruity aroma mixed with flowers. Dead flowers.

By the time he was almost upon her she sensed someone there and spun, stake in hand. When she saw who it was she sighed in relief and anger.

"Spike, stop sneaking up on..."

That was just long enough. Her defenses were down. He grabbed her suddenly, quickly, spinning her around as she struggled to fight him off. But he had surprise on his side. And hunger. He ached with hunger.

"Spike!"

He wasn't listening. He had her off-balance, preventing her from using her considerable strength against him. He knew he only had a moment before she would throw him off.

Spike pulled her head back and plunged his fangs deep into her soft neck. He felt the rush of blood in his mouth, flowing like a warm fountain, filling him. Buffy fought, trying to twist from his grasp, but as he drank he became stronger, impossibly strong while she...faded. And the ache, the pitiless hunger retreated as Spike fed. She had more blood than he thought possible. He kept drinking and drinking and...

"Spike!"

He started, finally awake. Buffy was looking at him puzzled.

"What love?" he said, somewhat sheepishly.

"You're all bumpy. And you're hogging the covers," she said tiredly.

"Sorry pet. Go back to sleep."

He sat up with his back to her, hoping she didn't notice him shaking. He calmed himself enough to de-vamp as she pulled more covers to her side of the bed. Buffy didn't notice his shaking or the gasping for breath he didn't need.

Spike was reeling. He could still taste her blood in his mouth. He could still feel her pulse beneath his lips--slowly fading.

"I'm not a monster," he rasped, trying to fight off the sensation.

"I'm not a monster," he muttered over and over again. It was almost gone, that wonderful...no, horrible feeling of blood.

"I'm not a..."

"What the hell is wrong with you?" Buffy exclaimed, annoyed, staring at him.

"Nothing pet. Go back to sleep."

But she didn't. She knew something was wrong. The bumpy vampire thing hadn't bothered her. Angel had done it sometimes while he slept too. Buffy didn't think much of it. But now she noticed him trying to hide the shaking.

"What's wrong, Spike?" she said, concern in her voice. Was he sick? Vampires don't get sick, do they?

"Nothing pet..."

"Will you stop saying that!"

"Just had a bad dream is all. Nothing to worry about."

She looked at him unconvinced, but shrugged it off.

He probably was dreaming of Dru or something and doesn't want to tell me, she thought.

Buffy had stopped trying to read Spike's mind a long time ago and wasn't in the mood to play twenty questions in the middle of the night.

"Fine. But if you are going to smoke, do it outside, okay? I'm trying to sleep."

It's MY crypt love, Spike thought but he didn't say anything. At least she was staying the night this time.

He pulled on some pants, grabbed his cigs and lighter and as soundlessly as he could, creaked open the heavy metal door and stepped outside into the cold night. Afraid of rousing her again he left the door open and lit a cigarette just outside.

It doesn't mean anything, he thought. It was just a dream.

But he knew, down deep he knew it meant more. He had realized he loved her in a dream, and now...

Spike withdrew from that thought, cursing it under his breath. He loved her, didn't he? He fought by her side, even saved her life!

How can I still want...

It's why Angel left, Spike thought. He drank from her, couldn't keep from drinking her.

Spike laughed out loud, but there was pain in that laugh, choking him.

I am a monster, he thought. Out of all the people in the world, the only person I love is the only one I can hurt. She'll leave me when she realizes...she'll know. Sooner or later she'll know.

When Buffy was dead he could love her, completely. It was simpler without the real thing staring him right in the face. She became the image of everything he loved and he kept it--no, he kept her alive within him for 147 days. Until she returned. Then she began to burn within him, consuming him with possibilities. Possibilities he could only realize before in dreams.

And now he dreamed of killing her.

"I am a monster."

Tears began to fall from his eyes. As he silently wept he didn't notice the soft footsteps behind him.

"Spike?" Buffy had never seen him cry before. She was surprised at how much it bothered her. How much it hurt.

"What's wrong, Spike? Please tell me."

But Spike just wiped his eyes fiercely.

"I know why he left you, pet. Angel, I mean."

Spike didn't see her startled expression. She wasn't expecting that.

"What do you mean?" Her voice was a bit harder than she wanted, which happened when she spoke of Angel. With Spike anyway.

"He loved you, right? Like I love you?"

Buffy let that one slide. She just nodded.

"And he knew if he stayed, he would hurt you."

Buffy said nothing, afraid of what Spike was going to say yet wanting to hear it anyway. It's over. I can't love you anymore. I can't give you the life you deserve. You deserve more.

"Buffy, I love you, but..."

She stopped him. She had to stop him. In a near panic Buffy grabbed Spike and started kissing him, fiercely. At first he responded, kissing her back, passionately. Then he tried to break free.

"Buffy, I have to tell you..."

But she stopped him again with her lips, pulling him toward the bed, undoing his belt. He fought her, but she was strong, and he wasn't used to fighting this.

"I'm a monster, Buffy," he managed to get out just as Buffy hurled him across the room onto the bed.

"Shut up, Spike," she said sweetly, like a shared joke, smiling at him.

And he started to smile back.

Hell, it was just a dream, he thought,

Buffy straddled him, pinning him to the bed, kissing his mouth, his chest... She knew his hunger for her. It was the same hunger she had for him. To devour him. To be sated with him.

He may be a monster, she thought, but then what am I?

She refused to think about it and continued kissing him, falling deeper and deeper into his embrace.

The end.

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[> [> [> Very interesting, Moose. Very interesting. -- CW, 07:29:21 12/24/01 Mon

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[> [> [> happy happy joy joy thanx Moose :) (NT) -- nay, 14:27:20 12/24/01 Mon

NT

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[> [> [> Moose, you gotta get these into Fictionary Corner... -- Wisewoman, 08:51:08 12/25/01 Tue

As soon as the holidays have settled down, I think the process is to send them to Liquidram and she'll code them and put them up on the site.

These are too good to lose track of!

;o)

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[> [> [> [> Thanks for the possitive feedback! -- Moose, 11:14:13 12/26/01 Wed

I'm working on a third story now, which I'll post when I'm finished--hint: think Buffy's problems on steroids.

I can see why the show's writers have such fun writing for these characters. They almost write themselves!

I'd be more than happy to have the stories posted somewhere permanent. I'll submit them after I've given them the once over again, iron out a wrinkle or two.

I write better fiction than essays. Some of the essays here are incredible. I just finished reading Nina's and *wow* doesn't seem enough. I finally understand why Buffy kept punching Spike when he couldn't fight back. Sexual frustration indeed! :-)

-da Moose

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[> Re: Short fanfic I wrote for B/S shippers. Enjoy! -- Gwyn, 17:30:20 12/28/01 Fri

I really like the way you are giving us the growing awareness in Spike of how Buffy ticks....keep it up, I am looking forward to more. You write Buffy and Spike in character but with something extra that adds to the show's view of them....this is good.

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[> [> Thanks, Gwyn. And my take on Buffy/Spike -- Moose, 21:11:25 12/28/01 Fri

Spike I understand. The BtVS writers have done a good job setting up his transition from evil to not- so-evil to downright loveable.

Buffy is much more the enigma. I love the character but her thought processes are kept from the viewers most of the time. Spike is great in that every emotion he experiences is right there. Buffy, perhaps because she has more conflicted emotions, is harder to grasp. She can seem cruel one moment and sweet the next.

Spike is the catalyst for the growth in Buffy. Only the deliciously evil minds of Joss and Co. have her thinking that he is dragging her down instead of building her up. She fights him at every step, harming herself, and him, in the process.

Spike's path is less sure. While he is good for Buffy, I'm not so sure she is good for him. His love for her has changed him, but when his usefulness as a bridge for Buffy's return to the world ends, then what? The sad part is that when Buffy grows she will grow past needing Spike. Spike will have to find a new role in her life if he will succeed at having a long-lasting relationship with her. If not, the rejection could bring back the Big Bad in him once and for all.

Either way, the story possibilities are truly wonderful, as well as the potential for misunderstandings and miscommunications which every writer loves. I just hope these two characters are fleshed out more in following eps. A lot of what I've been writing is focusing on the very details I want revealed.

It's fun at any rate. And as long as someone gets something out of it besides me (cause it is a lot of work!) I'll keep at it.

-Moose

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[> [> [> Re: Thanks, Gwyn. And my take on Buffy/Spike -- Gwyn, 03:53:04 12/29/01 Sat

You are right about the enigma that is Buffy at the moment. Some stuff is clear, the sexual attraction she is fighting, her desire to just feel anything, the way she oscillates between alienation and throwing herself at Spike, "going through the motions" versus "wanting the fire back". The part we are not being shown is just why she still feels so strongly that he is a "disgusting thing". It is as if it really seems to her like the words of the song in Tabula Rasa say "Feels like I'm starting all over again/The last three years were just pretend". She seems to have wiped Spike's sacrifice with Glory etc from her mind. We have had no indication that she knows what he did for Dawn when she was dead but surely someone told her. But that does not seem to count in his favour. Even the quieter moments since she got back when Spike was there for her when she was "miserable" seem to have disappeared since she has allowed her sexual feelings for him to come out. ER...how about a story where you get into her head and solve this for me?

I'm not sure how much her current disgust is because she is surprised that she enjoys the kind of sex she has with Spike, or because she seems to have reverted to her belief of early season five that he is unredeemably morally revolting, or whether her feelings for him have awoken, as you show in your last story, all her fears of abandonment?

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[> [> [> [> Im thinking Buffy... -- Moose, 10:14:12 12/29/01 Sat

...is more disgusted with herself than Spike. She remembers what she was before her grand sacrifice, how clear everything was. That Buffy would never have slept with Spike.

In a way, having sex with Spike is a reminder of how much she has lost--how far she has fallen from heaven. The fact that she enjoys it makes matters worse. She thinks she is becoming corrupt, an addict like Willow who will allow others to be in danger to suit her own carnal desires. (She did leave Dawn alone all night. If Tara hadn't stayed and something would've happened to her...)

However, the reality is, Spike has reawakened her passion for life. She is no longer "going through the motions." Now she is going through emotions, or rather the "fire" again.

I think some of the anger and bad treatment of Spike is meant to drive him away. She's afraid she won't have the will power to walk away. A hurt Spike might leave. But he won't. Spike seems to understand Buffy better than herself, and that insight allows him to cut past her defenses and right to her heart. Something her friends, her sister, her watcher, no one has been able to do.

Our poor frozen Buffy. I'm also entertaining the idea that Buffy doesn't really feel love for anything right now, but rather just remembers how it felt. Some of the other emotions are there, but love? Could be related to her strange new state of being. Who knows what Joss is up to?

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[> [> [> [> [> Oops, left a point out. -- Moose, 10:30:48 12/29/01 Sat

I think she definitely feels abandoned by "heaven" for lack of a better word. Like I put in my 3rd story, her fear that she can't return to heaven (ie.--bliss, nirvana, enlightenment, etc.) may weigh more heavily on her mind than we know at this point. I tried to personalize it through her love for her mother.

I think at some point Joss will explore this idea of being kicked out of heaven's house and back into the big scary and very adult (bills, jobs, sex with Spike! ;-) world.


Current board | More December 2001