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Buffy & Spike : a symetric evolution -- Stranger, 17:47:20 12/26/01 Wed

After Nina's excellent essay about the B/S relation ship, I feel no longer like belating the stuff I've wrotten about the similarity of their journey. I could be stuffing the first part after I see again the second half of Season 2, but that's hardly the most important part of this essay, so whatever :

Buffy and Spike, what does appeal to us so much in their relation ship ? They are opposites, a vampire and a slayer, and yet they are very much alike, two fighters. They're each others nemesis, the one they always have to fight against, never to win over completly. They can hurt each others more deeply than anyone, because they can see inside one better than anyone else. They're mirroring each others. They're growing up together, learning from each others, changing and becoming at the same times. This is an analysis to study the paralleles between both their evolutions.

Part One : My favorite ennemy

SPIKE : I'd rather fight you, anyway.
BUFFY : Mutual.
What's My Line II

As early as School Hard, they were described as very similar. Both had, in this episode, to deal with an intruding authority they tried to work with, and both chose, ultimely, to act acordingly to their own nature and to throw away authority. This theme goes on during the first part of the season. Compare : "BUFFY : I just couldn't wait till tonight! I'm rash and impulsive. It's a flaw." (Lie to me) to "SPIKE : What can I say ? I couldn't wait." (School Hard); or "SPIKE : Well, I don't go much for tradition." (Lie to me) to "GILES: After meeting you, Buffy, I realized that, uh, the handbook would be of no use in your case." (What's my line II) Their rebellious self is not the only thing they have in common. Buffy lives alone with her mother, Spike with his sire Drusilla. Buffy fights at her best to save Angel, Spike would do anything to heal Dru, and they both get jealous very easily with the Angel / Drusilla relationship. Even their aspiration are not that different. Buffy is torned between her duty as a slayer, and her will to have a life as normal as possible. Spike despite his Big Bad personna, has an equal fondness for the casual good stuffs of this world, as he shows in his "Happy Meal" speech in Becoming II. (Something that will be developed later with his taste for hot chocolat with little marshmallows, his watching the Passion show, putting Weetabix in blood; etc.) The way they fight, distributing smart ass comments to their foes is also similar and explains the surreal and instant familiarity of their relationship while fighting. ("BUFFY : Do we really need weapons for this ?", School Hard)
At that point in their life, they both have a very neat and undisturbed idea of themselves and the world. She's the Slayer, the warrior of the light, and he's the Big Bad. Both their idea of their identity will be shattered by Angel's transformation.
From Innocence to Becoming, they are both in a position of weakness they are slowly overcoming to overpower Angelus. Spike because he is in a wheelchair, Buffy because of the feeling she has for Angel.
In the end of Season 2, by sacrificing Angel to save the world, she chose her duty as a Slayer over her love. In allying himself with her, Spike does the exact inverse. He gives up his neatly built personnality as The Big Bad. From there, nothing could ever be the same. As for Buffy she can says good bye to having a life as a person next to her life as the slayer, because she's seen the slayer in her destroy and endangering most of what she loves and cares about. Her first reflexe will be to run away from both.

Part Two : Through Death & Back

SPIKE : Every Slayer... has a death wish. Even you. The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is you've got ties to the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting off the inevitable.
Fool For Love

What's amazing with the speech that Spike delivers to Buffy in FFL is not how much it applies to Buffy, it's how much it applies to him too. Both of them, from the end of Season 2, are slowly loosing all of their ties to the world. Season 4 and Season 5 deals with it in particular, and it's all naturally that the final of Season 5 shows Buffy's death, and Spike's failure to save her.
Summerian and akkadian mythology tells of Ishtar's decent in the Land of the Deads to visit Ereshkigal, the Goddess of Hell. Ishtar herself is a powerful goddess of Love and War, but she has to shed one by one all of her power insigns to each gates leading to center of Hell so she arrives naked and helpless in front of Ereshkigal.
Buffy could very well be compared to Ishtar : War and Love are her two strengthes. As shown in Restless in the Manus Card, a hand close as a fit, and a hand opened up to help, the Slayer-self and the Buffy-self, the First One and Dawn. She begins, in seasons 3, 4 and 5, her journey to death by loosing one by one all of her ties to the world.
If Buffy is Ishtar, who shall I compare Spike to ? Others already shown brillantly his similitude with the Beast. Many mythes counts the story of beast killed or bound to give its power to the one who beated it, somewhat born from the Beast's defeat. If we stay in Summerian mythology, there is the fight between Gilgamesh and Enkidu for exemple.
The first step from both Buffy and Spike's journey to Hell begins by being cut away from love. In Lovers' Walk we meet with a pathetic Spike left by Drusilla who's the one to tell to Buffy and Angel that they can't stay together without loving each other too much. If Spike goes back to Drusilla to win her again, it proved to be a failure ultimely. In the same way, if Buffy and Angel went back together after this episode's closure, it didn't last very long for quite the same reasons. So season 3 is for both of them the separation with their one and first love. Both will find pale copy of love in the Harsh Light of Day, before having to admit it was a failure. Just after love went friends and the social circle. That's mostly season 4. For Buffy it's the decomposition of the Scooby Gang as a united front. Everyone finds oneself a life outside their friends. Willow finds Tara and magic, Xander has Anya and doesn't go to school with them anymore, and Giles doesn't have a role with them anymore. Buffy herself focuses on Riley, and try to join the Initiative, both of which constitutes failures. In the Yoko Factor Spike demonstrates how apart they've been pulled from each other, and even if they join their forces to fight Adam in Primeval, Restless shows us an alone Buffy who desperatly looks for her friends. For Spike, the problem is quite simpler, very much more brutal and takes the form of a behavior inducing chip. He defines himself by being a killer, and this is removed from him. The fact he discovers in Doomed he still can fight demons and gladly does constitutes what's breaking his ties to his social circle, as seen in Goodbye Iowa when he's thrown away from Willy's bar. Again his tentative to regain his freedom of kill in the Yoko Factor is a failure, for Adam would not play, he once again have to help the Scoobies against demons for hiw own interrest. As would say Buffy in Goodbye Iowa : " Everything he's ever believed in has been taken away or . . . He's alone. He has nothing to hold on to." It's as much true for Spike than for Riley.
Season 5 is the harsher step. Where they begin to looses what makes them what they are. Family, sense of one's nature. The last ties to life. Buffy finds her sister isn't real, she faces her mother's illness and death, and her own inner darkness and revulsion of being the Slayer in Intervention and the Weight of the World. Riley leaves her and she quits college, as a shadow of earlier steps of loosing love and social circle, but it is more about questionning herself until the final abnegation of self "It's not like I don't have a life. I do. I have Dawn's life." (Tough Love). A life she would protect even over her duty as a Slayer. It's the quite same for Spike. The chip wasn't enough to remove his identity as the Big Bad, but his love for Bufy is. His effort to help her and the Scoobies goes against everything he's supposed to be as vampire. He goes from "I'm bad! It's just . . . I can't bite anymore." (Goodbye Iowa) to "I know I'm a monster, but you make me feel like a man" (The Gift). As the doc would sums it "I don't smell a soul anywhere on you. Why do you even care?" (the Gift). Just as for Buffy, when Drusilla shows up to tempt him in Crush, it's not really about love, it's about being a killer again. "HARMONY : why, because she is back ? SPIKE : No. Because I am." All of those reluctances don't prevent him from turning to the side of Buffy. He doesn't kill her as he intended to in Fool For Love, he chose her over Drusilla in Crush, and by the point of Intervention, he's ready to die to prevent her from suffering, even if he gains nothing from it. Like Buffy, he'd do anything to save Dawn. This time they makes the same choice : love over duty. But while Buffy's dive from the tower is what save both Dawn and the world, and herself form the weight of life, Spike's fall is his failure. He only stands up to see his love dead in the dim light of dawn. *ouch*
While Buffy is in heaven, Spike stays in a hell of repeating her night's death all over. " Those of us who fail history ? Doomed to repeat it in summer school." (Afterlife). Indeed.

Part Three : The Song of Ice and Fire

BUFFY :
I touch the fire and it freezes me
I look into it and it's black
Once More With Feelings

So Buffy is brough back in Bargaining. But there's still a few problem to her resurection. First, she's torned out from Heaven to an earth that looks pretty much like hell to her. Second, the fear that she came back "wrong", not full human, is revelled to be somewhat true in Smashed. Third, her hands are hurt while she was digging out of her own grave.
If Buffy comes from heaven to hell, does it mean Spike is freed from his hell to heaven ? That's what Xander implies in Afterlife when he said : "Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike doesn't answer. Later we see him in his crypt, both laughing and crying, hitting a wall... hurting his hand too as a result. Despite his happiness at seeing Buffy alives, he sympathizes with her pain... that's why he's the one being told the secret that she was in Heaven.
Buffy's "wrongness" is made clear from the beginning by her behaviour. She's frozen, not in touch with the others. "WILLOW: Well, 'cause, you know, since you've ... been back, you haven't exactly been big with ... the whole range of human emotions thing." (Flooded) pretty much sums it all. The only emotions she seems able to feel is anger, the only ones who seems able to touch her are the one who weren't implicated in the resurection : Dawn, Giles and Spike. But Dawn is a responsibility, not someone who can help, and Giles leaves her. So there's only Spike left. Especially since he knows too what it is to be dead. This is the beginning of the Ice and Fire theme. Buffy's the "Ice Queen" unable to feel, and Spike stands for the Fire "The torch I bear is scorching me" (Once More With Feelings) And offcourse, Buffy is "Drawn to the Fire". (And her ennemy use a freezing ray :)
Why is the hurted hands important ? In Primeval and Restless, we've seen the Hands are the symbole of Buffy's power. In All The Way, Kaltenbach muses enigmaticly : "Hands are good. Always use more hands. More hands." and Once More With Feeling stresses the importance of hands are links between people "Understand we'll go hands by hands / But we'll walk alone in fear". As Buffy said in What's my line "my emotions give me power. They're total assets!". Buffy has still not got back her attributes of power, even if she's alive again. She can't fully fight. And indeed, she needed Spike to save her in Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa. Wrecked's demon has been beaten by Willow, and the only foe she's really defeated was... Jonathan- demon. Who tricked her tor run away. Impressive feat. Another hand symbole occurence is in Tabula Rasa, there's a small detaile in the background during the scene in the bar. A left hand in a jar was on the shelves. This is what it made me think of :

Light is the left hand of darkness
and darkness the right hand of light.
Two are one, life and death, lying
together like lovers in kemmer,
like hands joined together,
like the end and the way.

These verses can be found in Ursula Leguin's book Left hand of darkness, during a discussion about duality between a man from Earth and a native from a planet where genres don't exist. This has something, I believe, of the key of the relationship between Buffy and Spike. It's a yin and yang pairing. As Spike discovers with Buffy the light in his vampiric darkness, Buffy finds in Spike the key to her inner darkness inside her rightous light. Together they can find a balance they both need. And they meet where night meets the day, at Dawn.
More than anything, it's their caring for Dawn that joins them. She is the key that opens up the possibility of their relation-ship. It's no wonder that it's because of the protection of Dawn that Buffy accepted him in the Scooby gang in the first place in Intervention. Just as Dawn was the reason Spike stayed and fought with the Scooby Gang during the summer of Buffy's death, Dawn is the reason Buffy doesn't jump again of the tower in Bargaining II. For both of them it is the last tie to the world, the only thing that allows them to be born again after their death. Ice and Fire is also related to death and life. Buffy will not be fully alive until she got her fire back. Spike is dead, but "[Buffy] makes [him] feel like it isn't so" (Once More With Feelings). Separated they are dead, together they share a life ("You have to go on living / So one of us is living" (Once More With Feelings). This also echoes the myth of Ishtar, she was brought back from the Land of the Dead by Enki, but it wasn't until she found one to take her place in Death that she could go back to life. That one was Tammuz the shepher, some say her beloved, some say her brother. (Another possibility for this role could be Xander, if you think Restless foreshadowed his death Ė another topic altogetjer :) The life they found within each other in Once More With Feelings allowed them to be reborned again, given a new name in Tabula Rasa. A name that even went with a family, for one a sister, for the other a father. With life goes the responsibilities back.
Both have, since the beginning of Season 6, had to confront the ties to the real world. Buffy has money problems. Spike has kitten debts. They also have the shared responsibility to save Dawn, something they do together in All the Way, OMWF and Wrecked. And when they face Willow's crumbling in Wrecked, it's again something they do together, Spike's stopping to indicate to Buffy she has to help her best friend.
Despite Buffy denying her feeling (whatever they are) for Spike, she knows she needs his help. Because he's the only one who can make her feel. Despite Smashed's tentative to get back to the comforting place of their old identity, they can't. They've already gone too far on their journey. "SPIKE: Oh, poor little lost girl. She doesn't fit in anywhere. She's got no one to love. BUFFY: Me? I'm lost? Look at you, you idiot! Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?" (Smashed). It is true for both of them, they lack belonging and they don't know anymore their own nature. And they probably can't find it out from in each others.

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[> Re: Buffy & Spike : a symetric evolution -- Spike Lover, 10:53:25 12/27/01 Thu

Impressive. Something you hinted at but did not say, was that the #1 thing Spike and Buffy offered each other in OMwF was Hope. Buffy is telling the demon that if life is a song, she needs something to sing about. Another words, she needs hope. When she (finally) kisses Spike, she is giving him Hope for a relationship w/ her, hope that his love will finally be reciprocated, etc.

In a shallow way, he is offering her hope that her passions and zest for living will return in time by being the vehicle for her to experience (if nothing else) sexual passion.

More meaningfully, I hope that Spike & Buff's future relationship will be something to sing about (as compared to what she feels about it now -something to never admit to anyone and be ashamed of.)

Also, I want to hear more about Xander's death being prophesied in Restless.

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[> [> Re: Buffy & Spike : a symetric evolution -- Stranger, 11:19:28 12/27/01 Thu

Yes, you're right about hope, I hadn't really though about it, was more along the lines of fire=life=emotions=hands
But hope is definitly a part of what life is, and what's wanting to live is.

As for the Xander stuff, I've seen some ideas about it in the JMboard and while writing this stuff, it stroke me it could be alternative end to this parallele with Ishtar. I'd have to watch Restless a douzen of times and think a while before I can come up with this theory by myself, so I hope someone else could enlighten us about it :)

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[> [> [> Love it! -- Nina, 16:07:13 12/28/01 Fri

I really love your post! I tried to concentrate on the subconscious level of their relationship, but as any type of specific analysis, it becomes dry very fast. We need the full spectrum of events and emotions to comprehend fully their relationship. Your post helps me find the balance I needed.

I really like the way you show the mirror image of their journey. All those details. Kitten and money debts. I didn't even thought about that particular fact! But it is true. Their journey is very similar.

I particularly love your "hand" theory. I didn't realize how important it was. And the verses by Ursula Leguin are very accurate.

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[> [> [> [> Thank you for the review :) your essay was great, I wish I had something clever to say abou it :) -- Stranger, 18:02:01 12/29/01 Sat

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OT: Movie Recommendation for "A Beautiful Mind" -- Aquitaine, 19:27:18 12/26/01 Wed

I have absolutely no specialised knowledge about film making so I won't even attempt to review "A Beautiful Mind". What I will do is recommend that you go see this film. In my mind, it succeeds not only in telling a captivating story about a singular individual, it also shows how emotional, intellectual and spiritual fractures can be mended (or at least bridged) through perseverance and with time, something we see on BtVS and AtS but which otherwise is rather scarse in the big bad world. The film also boasts some stellar and, thankfully, understated performances.

- Aquitaine

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[> A movie un-recommendation for "Ali" -- Rob, 22:54:36 12/26/01 Wed

Sorry to change the subject of this thread, but I couldn't help myself.

I just came back from seeing "Ali." It was the most bloated, boring, poorly acted, unfocused mishmash of a film I have seen in a long time. I have so many negative things to say about it, and not enough time to write at the moment. I'll give a detailed review tomorrow. For now, please be kind to yourself and avoid this movie at all costs! I actually emerged from the theatre less interested in the film's subject than before I entered. That's saying something!

Rob

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[> Re: OT: Movie Recommendation for "Not Another Teen Movie" -- Neaux, 05:11:16 12/27/01 Thu

I figured since its the holidays.. and holiday movie time..

I saw "Not another teen movie" opening weekend so as not to be spoiled by the gags. Yes some jokes are lame.. and most of the jokes are down right NASTY...

but its good to laugh at the movies.. and good to be entertained.. Especially some one of my age who has seen so many teen movies.. I probably got more of the jokes than the youngsters.. The spoofs go back to the Grease era (which most people in the audience didnt seem to get) through the John Hughes 80's John Cussack era through the cringe-worthy teen flicks of the late 90's and today..

see it if you dare, I dared and I laughed.

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[> [> No thanks, I saw "Scary Movie" -- vampire hunter D, 19:24:43 12/27/01 Thu

All the teen movie spoofs are pretty much the same. Hell, they've become as cliche as the movies they mock.

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[> Re: OT: Movie Recommendation for "Oceans 11" -- Deeva, 09:03:51 12/27/01 Thu

Not an earth shattering, astounding piece of work but it's a fun bit of fluff with some nice action sequences and some fun characters, should you find yourself in the mood for it. I liked this movie and wan't expecting anything deep so how can you go wrong. Well, except for the fact that it looked like Julia Roberts' collagen injection to her upper lip hadn't settled.

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[> [> Movie Recommendations and my extended anti-"Ali" rant! -- Rob, 10:21:00 12/27/01 Thu

I agree with both of you...

"Not Another Teen Movie"--some of it was nasty, and, yes, some jokes were lame, but I thought it actually was worth it for the few glimmers of very intelligent humor. Oh, and a great cameo near the end from the Prom Queen of the Brat Packers. Give you one guess. ;0)

"Ocean's 11"--Fun fluff. No make that extremely entertaining fluff! Involving story, paper thin characters. What more could ya want from a summer movie? Oh, wait. This isn't a summer movie. Oh, well! Clooney and Roberts are fun, as is the entire cast, and the twist at the end is unexpected and fun, also.

Now, I have to return to "Ali." I think my brain has almost regained all of its functions after going through that two-and-a-half hour ordeal. This movie, although it was a full hour shorter than "Lord of the Rings," felt at least two hours longer. Why? I think the fault lies in extremely bad editing. The movie seems to have no focus. We learn that Ali had extramarital affairs, but none are delved into. We learn about a Supreme Court appeal to keep him out of jail for refusing the draft. But we hear about its result in a quick scene that has no emotional impact whatsoever. We see his fighting, but so what? We never learn much about him as a character. It feels as if the moviemakers literally gave up trying to make a full character. "Muhammed Ali?" I can hear them saying. "Oh, he's an engima." And that's it.

How little focus did this movie have? There is a scene in which we see Ali running. Ok, that's well and good. But the scene seems to go on forever, with a musical montage that seemed to last so long, I thought there wouldn't be any more dialogue in the film. (Actually, I was praying for the end credits crawl to begin...But, no, the film's end was at least another 35 minutes from that point!!!) But then the big climactic fight between Ali and George Foreman seemed to be over in way too short. We see reenacted scenes of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King being shot. But why? Couldn't we have heard about these in a news bulletin, or from dialogue from the characters. Never have I seen a movie that went on so long but said so little about the character it was meant to be portraying. I would also question why a great actor like Levar Burton would be hired to play Martin Luther King, Jr. and then have no dialogue! It's not like the man even looks remotely like MLK, Jr! This leads me to believe that a great deal had been cut. And I'm all for major cuts to this movie. In fact, after seeing this movie, I read Ebert's review. And he said the same thing!

Here are Ebert's words:

"Ali" is a long, flat, curiously muted film about the heavyweight champion. It lacks much of the flash, fire and humor of Muhammad Ali and is shot more in the tone of a eulogy than a celebration. There is little joy here. The film is long and plays longer, because it permits itself sequences that are drawn out to inexplicable lengths while hurrying past others that should have been dramatic high points. It feels like an unfinished rough cut that might play better after editing.

"Consider, for example, a training sequence set in Zaire, after Ali travels there for "The Rumble in the Jungle." He begins his morning run, which takes him past a panorama of daily life. All very well. But he runs and runs and runs, long after any possible point has been made--and runs some more. This is the kind of extended scene you see in an early assembly of a film, before the heavy lifting has started in the editing room...

"Michael Mann's story of these 10 years is told in the style of events overheard--this isn't a documentary, but it seems to lack a fiction's privileged access to its hero. Key scenes play out in enigmatic snippets of dialogue. We work to make connections. We see Ali's wives, but don't feel we know them; they fade in and out of focus like ghosts. The screenplay by Eric Roth and Mann seems reluctant to commit to a point of view, and leaves us to draw our own conclusions. During some scenes, you can almost sense it shrugging. Ali remains an enigma...

"The movie includes scenes involving King and Malcolm X, but doesn't really deal with them (you find out more in Spike Lee's "Malcolm X"). After King is shot, Ali watches a city burn, but curiously has no dialogue. We wait for issues to be clarified, for points to be made, for the movie to punch up what is important, but the dramatic high points slowly slip back down into a miasma of unfocused and undisciplined footage. The visual look of the picture mirrors its lack of energy; the colors are subdued, the focus often a little soft. "Ali" looks like a movie that was never properly prepared and mounted, that got away from its makers in the filming, that has been released without being completed."

For the full review, click here.

But, here's another film recommendation...Don't go to "Ali." Check out "The Majestic," which got unfairly negative reviews...It's truly an amazing film. And also check out "A Beautiful Mind." Fantastic!

Rob

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[> Re: OT: Movie Recommendation for "Beautiful Girls" -- Shaglio, 10:20:50 12/27/01 Thu

It came out a few years ago, but I love it so much that I thought I'd recommend it to everyone. It has Max Perlich in it (the guy who played Whistler) but he has a big mustache so you might not recognize him. It's such a quotable movie which is why I like it so much.

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[> [> I agree. -- Simon., 15:37:52 12/27/01 Thu

I agree. "The Opposite of sex" is also a quotable movie. (although darker and less serious)

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[> Re: OT: Movie Recommendation for "Dude, Where's My Car?" -- mm, 11:49:55 12/27/01 Thu

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[> [> OT: Welcome to the Dadaist ATPoBtVS Movie Recommendation Thread! All Add-Ons Welcome:) -- Aquitaine, 15:45:34 12/27/01 Thu

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[> [> Dude, I second that recomendation. That movie was cool -- very stoned D, 19:26:16 12/27/01 Thu

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[> Re: OT: Movie Recommendations for 'Little Dorrit' and 'Attack of the Crab Monsters' -- matching mole, 19:57:37 12/27/01 Thu

One is the best film adaptation of Charles Dickens I've seen. It captures his melodrama and humour without turning into a cartoon. The other is as technically awful as the title suggests but surrealistic in its conceptual bizarreness.

See them back to back!!

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[> [> While we're on the subject of bizarre horror film cheapies... -- Rob, 10:08:35 12/28/01 Fri

...if you have never seen "Killer Klowns from Outer Space" or Ed Wood's un-masterpiece, "Plan 9 From Outer Space," I'm recommend a double-billing of both. I am a big fan of movies that are so bad, they're good...and these two camp classics fit that description to a "t".

Some random great quotes from "Plan 9," just to give you a hint of how bad it is:

Paula Trent: I've never seen you in this mood before.

Jeff Trent: I guess that's because I've never been in this mood before.
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Eros: You do not need guns.

Jeff Trent: Maybe we think we do.
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Gravedigger: I don't like hearing noises, especially when there ain't supposed to be any.
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Paula Trent: Saucers? You mean the kind from up there?
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Colonel Edwards: Why is it so important that you want to contact the governments of our earth?

Eros: Because of death. Because all you of Earth are idiots!
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Paula Trent: Now, don't you worry. The saucers are up there. The graveyard is out there. But I'll be locked up safely in there.
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Air Force Captain: Visits? That would indicate visitors!
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Colonel Edwards: This is the most fantastic story I've ever heard.

Jeff Trent: And every word of it's true, too.

Colonel Edwards: That's the fantastic part of it.
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Criswell: Greetings, my friends. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember, my friends, future events such as these will affect you in the future.
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Detective: Inspector Clay is dead! Murdered! And someone's responsible!

Please, for the love of God, I am begging you to watch this movie! You will laugh yourself to tears!

Rob

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[> [> [> seen it. And I have Killer Klowns on DVD -- vampire hunter D, 11:19:50 12/28/01 Fri

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[> [> [> [> Me too! -- Rob, 12:03:44 12/28/01 Fri

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[> [> [> Re: While we're on the subject of bizarre horror film cheapies... -- Shaglio, 12:24:29 12/28/01 Fri

"Criswell: Greetings, my friends. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember, my friends, future events such as these will affect you in the future."

Wow! Words to live by ;) This movie sounds deeply profound enough that I might just have to check it out.

Hilarious Harry Potter site - OT -- Dedalus, 08:42:03 12/27/01 Thu

Oh, this is so good. I found a link to it over at the Leaky Cauldron. It's basically a site of HP fan art, only really, really funny fan art. Just check out the alternate movie posters to see what I mean.

My personal favorites - "Planet of the Snapes," "Lord of the Snitch" - "One Ball to Rule Them All," "I Know What You Did Last Summer" - with the Dursleys on it, and the best one, "The Patronux" - With "Granger - Potter - Weasley" being where Trinity and Neo and Morpheus should be.

Hope you enjoy it.

http://www.ebanosoluciones.com/giverius/index.htm

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[> Thanks for the link! It was great! -- Rob, 12:19:06 12/27/01 Thu

Buffy's hair *spoilers* -- Deeva, 09:10:43 12/27/01 Thu

Here's the link to E!. They have a pic of Buffy's new do. The article is a bit spoilery.

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,9299,00.html

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[> Re: Buffy's hair *spoilers* -- Shul, 12:48:49 12/27/01 Thu

Sweet
I like the hair! =)

I'm looking for an updated 'Restless" site that is spoiler friendly... -- AurraSing, 10:50:17 12/27/01 Thu

I realise there is a link posted in the episode section of the main Philosophy site but I am looking for something that was written after season 5.....I watched "Restless" last night for the first time since it originally aired and now I have a few dozen thoughts,questions and assumptions I would love to check out,only I need someone more awake that my husband was last night to test them out on.......

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[> Why not just test them out on us? -- Wisewoman, 15:54:09 12/29/01 Sat

Many of us will be more than happy to discuss Restless with you, and how its many clues have played out in the subsequent seasons.

;o)

First visit -- Padstack, 12:25:24 12/27/01 Thu

First visit to the board. I have to say I'm very impressed! I never looked into it this much but the board has me really thinking. I was always more of a Math & Science kinda guy. This is a really cool community.

I got into Buffy two years ago when my roommate in college our senior year NEVER missed an episode. I watched it, but wasn't completely hooked. I graduated and moved to Ohio (went to college in IL), and didn't watch for a whole season. With the replaying of the episodes (2x a day!!!!) on FX I've become completely and totally hooked beyond belief. My fiance claims it's just b/c Buffy "kicks high" (which I'll admit never hurts ;) ), but I honestly like the show - even moreso now that I've been reading the analysis provided in this messageboard and on the website that referred me here (www.atpobtvs.com). Just wanted to drop a thank you to y'all and ask one question.

I'm really into this show, but would like to see where some of you get your insights. What can I do to learn and see the show from your perspectives? I don't really want to go out and buy the scripts and a bunch of books if possible (low $$), but I'm willing to try darn near anything. Thanks!

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[> Welcome! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:15:32 12/27/01 Thu

One thing you might try is getting Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces" from the library.

Many of us feel that Campbell's "hero's journey" is reflected in Buffy's story.

Masq's site is the best one I've ever found for in-depth discussion of the various philosophies represented in BtVS.

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[> Welcome... -- VampRiley, 13:20:34 12/27/01 Thu

Glad we have been able to recruit another member for our religious cult...I mean our shared interest in good stories, particularly of the supernatural variety of the Jossverse. And let me just warn you that of a few of the things you can expect to occur in your life, now that your hooked like we are:

1) Chances are that you will start to compare everything else (I'm talking books, other shows, etc. where there is writing) to Buffy and Angel and hopefully to the upcoming Ripper.

2) This world from the inside of Joss' head will permeate your senses and you brain. You will think of it almost everyday, if not everyday.

3) You will start looking for hidden meaning in most of the things that you see and read about these shows, like the subtextual, philosophical meaning of chocolate, cats, clothes and contradictory behavior in relation to the Buffyverse.

4) You might gain an increased desire to write fanfic, whether there are crossovers or not. You may actually even go ahead and write it and get it posted to a website. You may find yourself looking at websites to help you increase the quality of your writing. You may find that you keep thinking if a character or more than one were in a partiular situation (like if you saw it on TV or whatever), what just might happen.

5) You will find that with each passing day, that you will become addicted to show and possible even this site and this messageboard. I can tell you that it does happen. (I'm speaking about myself here, so I know. I'm not in denial. I'm fully aware of my addiction and have fully embraced it. And if anyone tries to rid me of it, I will make them pay in very painfull ways that include the five basic ways of torture: sharp, loud, hot, cold and dull. Heheheheheheheh.):-P

I don't mean to scare you off. I certainly don't want to be the cause of someone losing interest. But I'm not sure if my ramblings could ever dissuade (sp?) someone with what Joss has to offer.

So welcome!

Check out: http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/. You might be happy.

VR

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[> [> Re: Welcome... -- cynesthesia, 14:22:17 12/27/01 Thu

Thank you, VampRiley and Hi Padstack! Kinda new here myself so it's good to know I'm displaying all the right symptoms.

For me, there is a number 6 on the list.

6. You will engage in a never ending quest to convert others to the rich and many layered wonders of the Jossverse. People may be dubious, but you will continue to explain patiently that BtVS is the apogee of Western civilization.

Can't say I've personally made any recruits (people seem to be avoiding me), but in the meantime, this great board will do just fine.

cynesthesia

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[> [> [> Re: Welcome... -- VampRiley, 14:38:07 12/27/01 Thu

Recruitment. Forgot that one. The effort of recruiting can either be quick or a long, painful and arduous (sp?) task. Anyone ever see the look in someone's eyes right after you have them hooked? You get this wierd feeling deep down. And sometimes you not sure if it's nausea, butterflies or something else. Weird. But sometimes you know it's that you have gotten through to someone and helped them to appreciate something that has immense intrinsic value that can be kept for a very long time. Maybe to death, but I'm not sure about that one, Joss hasn't been doing this but for a few years. I believe that the best way is to show the eps in order. Transcripts and shooting scripts can help after watching but they arn't a good substitute for the visual and audio method of getting the full story.

VR

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[> [> [> Afterthought: How do you pronounce "cynesthesia"? -- VampRiley, 14:45:35 12/27/01 Thu

Is it like: "cyn-es-the-sia" or "cy-nest-hes-ia", or what?

VR

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[> [> [> [> Re: Afterthought: How do you pronounce "cynesthesia"? -- cynesthesia, 15:16:05 12/27/01 Thu

VampRiley,

the first way, like the real word synesthesia (sin-es-'thee-zha)

c

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[> [> [> and a number 7... -- The Second Evil, 19:56:34 12/28/01 Fri

welcome, and if you've not already caught on in some of the other comments & references scattered through the board's posts, issue number 7 is specifically related to this board. After a certain length of time exposed to the high-falutin' (and not-so-high-trollopin, bwahahaha), you may find that this one applies:

7. You view any simple summation of BtVS or Ats, such as "spike is sooo kewl" or "buffy is hot," with great disdain.

You know you've reached Maximum ATPoBtVS Stature when you outright ignore or deny the existence of any fellow fan whose mental output is limited to three-word one-syllable sentences based on a character's physical appearance or sex life onscreen. If you find yourself refusing to hang out with fellow fans only because their idea of "discussing the show" is limited to Willow's hairstyles and Anya's cleavage, WARNING. And if your refusal is accompanied by the sudden desire to bash them over the head with a copy of Hero with a Thousand Faces or any other mythological/psychological/philosophical text, DANGER. You will have reached the true nirvana state of an affirmed ATPoBtVS-head, where your only motto will be, "Joss thinks, therefore I am."

Bwahahahahaha.

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[> [> [> [> Wait a minute there............ -- Rufus, 01:34:06 12/30/01 Sun

Waste a wonderful book.....take it out of the plastic and defile it!!!!!!!! I may invoke the name of JC but to harm an innocent book is just too much....it would get all dirty too.....can't I just use a perfectly good baseball bat with the title of the book etched into it.....;)

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[> Re: First visit -- d'Herblay, 04:07:10 12/28/01 Fri

Allow me to join in the welcomes. We need more math & science-oriented Ohioans. I'm not certain that it's really my perspective that you'd like to see the show from--unlike most of the other posters, I've never read Campbell. What few insights I have are influenced by books by people such as Stephen Jay Gould, William Poundstone, Dava Sobel and Charles Shaar Murray, as well as sites like Arts & Letters Daily and other such repositories of philosophical goodness. But I will highly suggest spending a few weeks trawling through the archives, reading the character essays, and checking out the essays at Fictionary Corner. Consider this an exercise of pleasure, not a prerequisite to posting; just dive right in and join us. The waters here may sometimes run deep, sometimes shallow, but they are always warm.

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[> [> Re: First visit -- Rufus, 04:48:11 12/28/01 Fri

Herb loved the link....to Arts and Daily Letters...

As for our first visitor, jump in and enjoy...:):):)

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[> [> Welcome and Character posts -- matching mole, 06:06:12 12/28/01 Fri

I'd also like to add my welcome as a science guy who also lives in the midwest. I haven't been here that long myself but am enjoying myself.

I have been unable to access the character posts (not sure exactly what they are). When I hit the link at the top of the posting board or the link in d'Herblay's message all I get is a blank, black screen. Any suggestions?

Finally, as an evolutionary biologist I'm intrigued by d'Herblay's statement that he gets ideas about Buffy from Stephen Jay Gould. Are there posts in the archives I should search out?

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[> [> [> Re: Welcome and Character posts -- d'Herblay, 02:53:53 12/29/01 Sat

I can't help with the character posts: the links work for me. Any difficulty you are experiencing seems to be your own idiosyncrasy. The character posts were an exercise we indulged in for the board's first anniversary; each posters volunteered to write an essay/analysis of the growth of a Buffyverse character. We covered much of the gamut with more often than not wondrous insight (though I would still like to see someone write up Principal Snyder, Maggie Walsh or Ethan Rayne). They make excellent reading.

While I was thinking of specific posts when I mentioned Dava Sobel and William Poundstone (I have a tendency to wax prolix about time zones), Gould influences me more at the gestalt level. It would be faint praise were I to call him my favorite writer. I get ideas about everything from Stephen Jay Gould.

Over the summer, before Darby and you showed up, mundusmundi and I carved out a niche as the board's resident Darwinists. But we are amateurs (in the sense that we love it). Mundus seems to sleep with a copy of The Demon-Haunted World under his pillow, but my only real qualifications are that I find Peter Medawar funny and once mispronounced Paleoscincus in front of Robert Bakker; cost me a drawing, damn it. Now that there are some professionals here, I may choose to close my mouth and be thought a fool.

As to specific threads that touch on Darwinism, there have been a few. I did quote Gould's "The Narthex of San Marco and the Pangenetic Paradigm" in my Apocalypse essay; however, that was the narthex and not the spandrels and the essay has nothing to do with biology. Deep within the "Respect my authority" thread I made some half-assed attempts to explain kin selection and memetics. When the October archives are posted (at my current rate: never), you will find change's endorphin-based explanation of Buffy's heavenly experience. Sociobiology or ev-psych arises as a topic every once in a while, usually with a quick note of condemnation. I, who am intrigued by the cognitive school and also by Frans de Waal, have yet to make the case for a sociobiology that is less Robert Wright/higgamous-hoggamous superficial.

Someday, I may actually make my case that the lack of competition between Slayers dooms humans in any Darwinian arms race against vampires. Now I will have to do so with great care and trepidation.

I often wonder why, whenever we have a self-described "math & science" person show up, he tends to apologize for being such on a philosophy board. I majored in philosophy, and I did a fair amount of work in the philosophy of mathematics (though my real interest was the mathematics of philosophy, i.e., the axiomatic and algorithmic foundations to the works of such thinkers as Hobbes and Beccaria). Recently I have made some slight investigations into the philosophy of science. This is "All Things Philosophical." Certainly Darwinism in the Buffyverse is as much a Thing Philosophical as Sarah Michelle Gellar's new haircut. (And, while I'm at it: I am not a Midwesterner. I am a citizen of America's rust belt. The Midwest is places like Nebraska and Iowa and Urbana. Pretty much everywhere west of Cuyahoga County. But I have one of the finer art museums in the country and the greatest orchestra in the world a seven-minute drive away and not a dairy cow in sight. And, no, we don't have a city-wide complex. Cleveland rocks! Just not too loudly or after ten p.m., please.)

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[> [> [> [> Hey! I *love* dairy cows!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 08:38:04 12/29/01 Sat

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[> [> [> [> [> what is the midwest? -- matching mole, 13:57:15 12/30/01 Sun

There aren't many dairy cows in central Illinois either - the only ones I've seen belong to the University of Illinois. Mostly there's just corn and soybeans which are bit harder to get emotionally attached to.

I've long been intrigued and somewhat baffled by the idea of the midwest. I grew up a short distance to the north of you d'Herb, in Ontario's Niagara peninsula and I certainly never considered myself to be in any kind of 'west' (being much closer to the Atlantic than the Pacific). Yet I knew that nearby portions of the U.S. were considered to be part of this mysterious region. So I'm glad to hear that you don't consider Cleveland to be part of the midwest.

I tried to access the character posts using Internet Explorer as opposed to using my usual Netscape and it worked just fine. Very odd.

I'll check out the posts you suggested right away. And don't be doing any of that defering to the professionals stuff. I probably know more about technical details of population genetics and such (maybe there will be a thread on allele frequencies in demon populations some day but I doubt it) but from the tenor of your post you probably know more about the philosophical end of things (evolutionarily speaking) than I do.

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[> Re: First visit -- Cactus Watcher, 07:04:14 12/28/01 Fri

The important thing isn't to worry about how dazzling everybody else seems. We have people here from all kinds of backgrounds from all over the world. With so many view points, something is always going to seem new and startling. Concentrate on what it is about the show that YOU like. If the spirit moves you, try writing it out. Most of us got hooked into posting here over some scene or other that made a particular impression on us and we wanted to discuss. Some people love bringing in comparisions to other things they have read. Others prefer to write just their own impressions. It can be interesting either way. It's up to you.

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[> [> Re: Receptions/Perceptions -- mundusmundi, 14:32:34 12/28/01 Fri

I second Cactus Watcher's point: Write from your perspective, rather than trying to tailor it to fit the forum. You'll find, in fact, that there is no monolithic point of view here (though "Spike's a hottie" seems to be a general consensus). Whenever there's a dynamic between each person's own perceptions and their receptions of other views, it shows the board at its very best.

So vilkommen. And don't fret should you ever be confronted with the occasional trollish activity. The trolls around here always get a little excited whenever terrorists rear their ugly heads, but they inevitably turn to vamp dust when ignored.

Best, -mm

Fight rerun hell! Read my 3rd story! :-) (long) -- Moose, 12:38:11 12/27/01 Thu

Covered In Her
by Moose

"So when do we fire it up?" Jonathan asked Warren as Andrew, oblivious to the others, finished adding the final touches of paint to his new limited edition Wookie.

"Hey, if you get paint on the carpet Iím giving you such a dead-leg," Warren threatened.

"Iím not! Besides, itís almost done."

"Cool!" Jonathan said, going over to examine Andrewís work.

"You got his fangs! How did you get his fangs? Theyíre so tiny."

"Details." Andrew said proudly. "Itís the details that make an artist."

"Yeah, painting Chewie on a motorcycle is art," Warren said, rolling his eyes.

"Itís not a motorcycle, itís a hoverbike. And shut up! What do you know about art?" Andrew quipped back.

"What do I know about art? This, my friends, is art!"

With a dramatic gesture Warren flipped a switch on what looked like a large metal tube about a foot in diameter. Inside it began to glow an ominous green.

"Hey! You said I could turn it on!" Jonathan exclaimed. Warren ignored him.

"Now, allís we need to do is to focus it on the Slayer," Warren said, lost in thought.

"From here? It will work from here?" Jonathan asked.

"Oh yeah, it can reach anyone in Sunnydale. I did the math."

"I always hated math," Andrew interjected and immediately regretted it as Warren glared at him.

"Okay," Warren continued. "Letís find our Slayer on the scope. I need the coordinates."

"Should we really?" Jonathan blurted out. "I mean, I know sheíll get in the way of the Big Plan, but doesnít this seem kinda, well...mean?"

"Look, it isnít permanent. Itíll just distract her for awhile," Warren said soothingly.

"Well, YEAH! By making her go insane!" Jonathan said.

"No, you little...look it wonít do any long-term damage. It will just make her problems a little more, shall we say, intense? Comíon, we agreed to this, remember?"

"Yeah, alright. As long as it isnít permanent."

"It wonít be. I promise."

*****

"Bloody hell! Itís always Angel with you!" Spike yelled at Buffy, the confines of his crypt echoing the angry words all around them.

"I never even said his name!" Buffy retorted, but she knew that was only half-true. Angel was always there, in the air between them, whether she mentioned him or not.

"He left you, pet. Get over it!"

Spike was pissed now. He couldnít believe that after all this time, after all Buffy had done with him that she still thought of Angel as...

"He didnít leave me for you!" Buffy retorted, angrily. Ouch, that one stung. She could see it in his face.

"Heís gone just the same, pet. Iím all youíve got now," Spike said through clenched teeth.

Buffy looked at him with disgust. What the hell am I doing with him, she thought.

"I donít need you, Spike. I can walk away anytime I want."

Spike looked at her, seeing her tight face and angry eyes.

Maybe she could, he thought. She pushed soldier-boy away. Maybe Iím next.

"Donít bother, pet. Iíll save you the trouble," Spike said coolly, as he ripped open the door of his crypt and stormed out into the night.

*****

"Here. I think sheís here," Jonathan said, handing Warren a small sheet of paper with numbers on it.

"Are you sure? If the focal point is off weíll have to wait a whole week to try again," Warren said.

"Why?" Andrew asked.

"Where were you at the last meeting? Stroking your Wookie?" Warren said exasperated as Jonathan started to giggle.

"Look, this thing took me a week to charge up. It requires a lot of juice, remember?"

"Oh. Yeah. I remember," said Andrew rather lamely.

"Great," Warren said sarcastically, as Andrew punched Jonathan in the arm for saying "strokín the Wookie" over and over again. Warren ignored them, turning his attention back to the device.

"Now, letís see what this puppy can do."

*****

Buffy sat on the edge of Spikeís bed, lost in thought. She didnít like fighting with him, at least not like this.

Itís not like weíre a couple, she thought. Itís just sex. Sleazy, disgusting, sweaty, hot...sex.

"God, what is wrong with me," Buffy said aloud to the empty room.

As if in answer, the walls turned a bright green.

"What the..."

Suddenly Buffy was standing on a lovely beach. The wind was gently blowing through her long hair. Gone were her tight braids and black sweater. Now she wore a flowery dress which shimmered as if alive in the light of the setting sun.

"Okay, how did I get here?" She said, but no one answered.

She saw footprints heading further down the beach and followed them.

Buffy saw him, his back to her yet unmistakably it was him.

"Angel?"

He turned at the call of his name, and smiled.

"Hey, Buffy. Iíve been looking for you."

"But, the sun? Youíre not all flame-y?"

"Oh, that. Kinda a long story. There was a prophecy. It came to pass. Now Iím human...again. I guess itís not that long a story."

"Is it true? Youíre really, alive?" Buffy said, barely able to choke back her tears.

"Yeah, itís true. Which is why I came looking for you."

"Really?" Buffy could barely contain herself. She want to dive into his arms, to cry and laugh all at once. This was her dream come true. But something held her back.

"Well, I know youíve always wanted this...us, to be different. And well, I just had to thank you."

"Thank me? For what?" she said, puzzled.

"For letting me move on with my life. I couldnít have found a normal girl otherwise."

Buffyís eyes widened with shock and hurt.

"Youíve found someone...else?" she said in a barely audible whisper.

"Yes. Sheís a wonderful woman. You donít know her, but sheís sweet. Nice. Normal. Sheís not a freak of nature, which is a big plus. She canít throw me across the room or anything. Though, she does thumb wrestle pretty well..." Angel said absently.

"Oh," was all Buffy could manage. The sun had finished setting beyond the horizon. The beach was now awash with a deep blue and the air was turning cold.

"Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks."

"Not a problem," Buffy said, her eyes full of tears.

"Youíre not going to get all weepy are you? It lacks class."

"Angel, I...canít we talk for awhile? Isnít there something I can do to..." Buffy said desperately.

"Oh yeah, here it comes," a third voice interjected behind them. It was...

"Riley?"

"Gee, nice to know you remember my name. I feel all warm and gooey inside now."

"Riley! When du..did you get back?" Buffy stammered.

"Obviously not soon enough. I see you still are going for the tall, dark and loathsome types."

"No, it isnít like that. Angel is human now..." Buffy trailed off.

"Itís true. How ya doing?" Angel said with a smile, offering his hand which Riley shook amiably enough.

"Quite well, actually. Say, you are human! I can feel a pulse. Did you feel his pulse?" Riley asked Buffy, excitedly, still shaking Angelís hand.

"No," Buffy said, still reeling from Angelís words.

"Thatís odd," Angel said.

"What?" Buffy said, unable to even think coherently. Things had gone six degrees south of odd.

"Whereís yours?" Angel said to Riley.

Rileyís smile exploded into fangs as he grabbed Angel, whipping his arm behind his back, exposing his neck.

"Riley!" Buffy exclaimed in horror.

"Itís okay, Buff. These things happen. One minute youíre in the jungle having wet-dreams about your honey in the middle of a bunch of sweaty, unshaven guys. Next a vampire is sucking you dry. They sure were fast little critters. Snuck in while we were sleeping. Turned all of us. Except Graham. He ate a grenade, poor bastard," Riley said, pausing to eye Angelís exposed neck.

"Man, it really is a rush. All that blood."

"Riley no!"

"Comíon, Buffy! You like your men dark and brooding, not weak and kittenish, remember? I bet Angelus remembers."

With that Riley plunged his fangs into Angelís neck.

"Nooo!!!!" Buffy screamed, running forward only to find herself running headlong into her own couch.

"Ow..." She muttered as she rubbed her leg where she had hit the couchís arm.

"Angel! Riley!" Buffy called out, looking around frantically. All that she saw was the empty living room of her house.

"What the hell is going on!"

"Buffy? Is that you?" A voice called from the kitchen. A familiar voice.

"Mommy?"

*****

"I think itís working," Warren said.

"How do you know?" Asked Andrew as all three crowded around the device.

"This light is blinking," Warren said, pointing to a small red bulb.

"Cool..." Andrew and Jonathan exclaimed in awed unison.

*****

Buffy could smell fresh baked cookies as she entered the kitchen. Chocolate chip cookies.

"Mom?" Buffy called out, nearly breathless.

Joyce was busily stacking the still hot cookies on a silver platter.

"Hi, Buffy. Want a cookie?"

Buffy just stared, shock filling her with a cold dread.

"Mom, arenít you..." Buffy couldnít finish as she began to cry.

"Oh, Buffy donít do that. They really are good cookies. Here, try one," Joyce said smiling, handing her a cookie.

"Dead?" Buffy finally managed to say.

"Yes dear, I noticed. I was the one with the fatal brain tumor," she said dryly.

"But it just so happens that I got permission to see my favorite daughter again."

Buffy shook her head, attempting to absorb what she was hearing and found herself idly nibbling the cookie as she tried to clear her head.

"These are...good," Buffy mumbled.

"Thank you. Youíre such a sweet-heart. I know things havenít been easy for you without me," Joyce said, as Buffyís eyes filled again.

"But I just wanted to tell you that we will be together again. Someday."

"Really?" Buffy couldnít contain the hope in her voice, the need.

"Well sure. Dawn made it possible, you know," Joyce said, returning to stacking the cookies on the platter.

"What do you mean?"

"Well, I wouldnít be in hell otherwise, Buffy," Joyce said a matter-of factly.

Stunned, Buffy choked on a bite of her cookie and started coughing.

"There, there dear. Do you want some milk? I bet these cookies would go great with milk." It took a moment before Buffy could speak again.

"No! Mom, no...you arenít in...I mean...you canít be in... Youíre in heaven, arenít you?"

"I was. Just like you. But that spell Dawn did, the one to bring me back? It put an end to that."

"How? She broke the spell! I know she did!"

"Well dear, confidentially speaking," Joyce said, leaning in close, almost whispering.

"Itís not like they let you back in once you leave."

Buffy felt as if someone had just punched her in the gut. She doubled over making inaudible noises. There was a distinct smell of burnt cookies now in the air. Buffy felt the room closing in and it was getting harder to breathe.

"But donít worry, dear. Now we can be together! Mind you, weíll be together in endless torment and hellfire, but weíll still be together," Joyce said smiling sweetly as Buffy collapsed onto the floor.

"You really ought to have some milk," Buffy heard her Mom say as her vision dimmed and the walls turned green.

*****

Spike sulked outside his crypt, not wanting to enter. He was surprised that Buffy hadnít left. He had been gone for over an hour.

Sheís just using you, thought Spike. Only a matter of time before she gets tired of it...of you.

But Spike wasnít easily cowed. Not now. Buffy was his world. He couldnít go five minutes without thinking of her--the feel of her, that rare smile, that hungry look. It was enough to drive a vampire insane. But Angel, that ponce, would always be in his way. Angel had been her first. Worse, he had been her first vampire. Spike knew she was comparing everything he did to that nancy-boy--the vampire that had gone before.

"Bloody hell," Spike muttered.

She can sodding well come out here and kiss my ass, Spike thought, as he lit another cigarette and waited.

*****

"Xander, help me with this zipper," Anya said, trying to reach the back of another wedding dress and failing. A rare "closed" sign hung in the Magic Boxís window as Anya tried on dress after dress in front of a large mirror.

"Easy, An. Here, Iíll get it," Xander said, zipping up the white wedding gown.

"You look beautiful," Xander said with feeling as Anya smiled back at him.

"I know, but does it make me look pasty? Maybe a little more blush would help."

But Xander wasnít listening. He was too busy admiring his bride to be.

"Buffy, donít you think she looks beautiful?" Xander asked.

"Huh? What?" Buffy stuttered. "Why am I here?"

"To help me pick out a wedding dress. Donít you remember?" Anya said rather pointedly.

"It canít all be about you," she added under her breath.

"Listen, guys?" Buffy said.

"Something strange is happening to me. I donít know whatís going on. Everything is so confusing..."

"Here it comes," Anya interrupted.

"Canít spend a day picking out a wedding dress without listening to a certain someone, whom I wonít name because that is rude--letís just call her ĎFluffyí--without Fluffy bringing her big bag of dirty problems with her wherever she goes."

"Now Anya, weíre Buffyís friends and should be there for her..." Xander started.

"Yeah! What he said," Buffy exclaimed.

"...and if that means taking valuable time out of our lives to help those without one, then weíre the better for it," Xander finished.

"Hey!" Buffy said, hurt.

"Well Buff, you do sorta dominate a room a lot. All the time, actually. In fact, I canít remember the last time you didnít come to us with something dire, expecting us to drop everything and do what you say."

"Yes, thatís quite annoying," Anya added. "Honey, get me the scissors over there. I have a loose thread."

"Kinda in the middle of a point, darling," Xander replied, miffed.

"Well, how about you get the scissors, hand them to me, and then you wonít have to finish making your lame point," Anya retorted.

"Lame!" Xander exclaimed.

"Oh, Iím sorry, was that too honest for you? You know, that thing you like about me, being HONEST? Or was that just a big lie!"

"Well, at least I didnít insist on dressing Buffy up in blood larva and burlap!" Xander shot back.

"Huh?" Buffy said confused. Then she looked down at what she was wearing. And screamed.

*****

Spike heard Buffyís scream and bolted for the crypt. When he saw her she was alone in the middle of the room, furiously brushing herself off. Spike looked around, confused. He didnít see any nasties about.

"Buffy?"

*****

She turned at the sound of her name and found herself back on the beach again, with Angel standing in front of her.

"Buffy?"

"Youíre okay!" she said running and embracing him.

"Bloody hell, Slayer! Watch the ribs," Angel gasped.

"Ooh, sorry. What happened? Whereís Riley?"

"Riley?" Angel asked puzzled.

"You know, the guy that put those holes in your neck?"

"Huh? What holes? Rileyís a vampire? Where is he?" Angel said looking around.

"It doesnít matter. Weíre together again," Buffy said, sinking into his arms.

"Yeah, alright pet," Angel said, looking confused.

"Just promise me something," Buffy asked.

"Anything, love."

"Donít leave me."

"I wonít, love," Angel said and kissed her, long and deep.

*****

"Donít leave me."

Spike held Buffy in his arms, and stroked her hair. Maybe it was too much for her, he thought. I shouldnít have left. She now had that look that Dru sometimes got, that distant look.

"I wonít, love," he said, kissing her. He picked her up mid-kiss and started carrying her to his bed.

"Never leave me," Buffy said softly, almost crying.

"Never leave me, Angel."

Spike stopped, his face contorted in pain, nearly dropping her. She was crying now, against his chest.

"Never leave me, Angel."

A look of resolve crossed Spikeís face.

"Donít worry, love. Iíll never leave you. Ever again."

*****

"This is so cool!" Warren exclaimed, admiring the throbbing hum of his new device.

"Yeah, cool," Jonathan echoed with less enthusiasm.

Suddenly the lights in the room began to flicker and the green glow started to sputter. Warren turned around looking for the cause just in time to see Andrew switch on a hair dryer and aim it at his model.

"Dude no!" Warren yelled.

But it was too late. The lights flickered briefly and sparks began to shoot from Warrenís device. A moment later the power was out and a distinct smell of burnt circuits flooded the room.

Warren took a step toward Andrew, his face filled with rage. Andrew saw the look and inched closer to the exit.

"Uh, my Wookie. It wasnít dry yet..." Andrew started to explain then bolted for the door as Warren chased after him. Jonathan could hear them outside, fighting.

"I got your Wookie right here!"

"Ow! Not the dead-leg!"

"Come here, you baby. Take it like a man!"

"Ow!"

*****

Buffy woke with a start. She was in Spikeís bed.

Okay, she thought. Thatís sorta normal.

Buffyís eyes darted about the room, her cheeks flushed with fear. Sheís turned and saw Spike sitting across from her, watching her intently.

"Spike?"

"Morning, love."

"Where...Iím here, arenít I?"

"With me, yes," Spike said, his face an inscrutable mask.

"It mustíve been...a dream. Just a dream," Buffy concluded. However, the look in her eyes betrayed her.

"Itís alright, Buffy," Spike said, catching that look.

"Iím here. Iím not going anywhere," he added firmly.

Buffy looked at him. There was something strange about him. His face was hard yet his eyes...they were, what? Sad? No. Gentle.

Spike got up and moved to sit beside her, the seriousness still in his face and voice.

"Iím not going anywhere," Spike said again.

"Of course not. The sunís out," Buffy replied, half-joking, but he didnít laugh or even smirk a little.

"I love you, Slayer. And Iím not going anywhere," he repeated.

Buffy just looked at him. The fear within her began to recede. There was something in the way he spoke that made her feel...safe. It was a good feeling. She leaned in as he kissed her. Soon her hands were on him, gliding over his body while he explored hers--the fear from the night before now only a distant and quickly fading memory.

The end.

---------------------

Wow, you made it through! Now for the feedback. Simple really--What was your favorite line? :- )

-da Moose

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[> Slight inspiration for this story was derived from... -- Moose, 12:48:23
12/27/01 Thu

Listening to a Smashing Pumpkins song titled "X.Y.U."

Here are the lyrics:

she didn't wanna be, she didn't wanna know
she couldn't run away cause she was crazy
she gave it all away, she saw her baby break
and in the air it hung that she was dull razors
and i said, i wanna fill you up, i wanna break you, i wanna give you up
from one another, another one should come to one another
no one should come between us
still i was lonely, and she was by my side, my one and only
knows that she could never hide
i couldn't feel her, and it was just a game,
cause i was lonely and she was crazy
rat-tat-tat, ka boom boom, now take that, and just a bit of this
cause i'm a watcher, and i'm a doer of none
come to save you, cause you're all mine
i hurt where i can't feel, i feel where i can't hurt
i know where i can't know, i bleed for me and mine
ka-boom, a rat-tat-tat, and some good ole bliss
cause i'm a sister, and i'm a motherfuck
i am made of shamrocks, i am made of stern stuff
i am never enough, i am the forgotten child
and i said i wanna fill you up, i wanna break you, i wanna give you up
from one another, no one should ever come
in between us, between us and our love
mary had a little lamb, her face was white as snow
and everywhere that mary went i was sure to go
now mary's got a problem, and mary's not a stupid girl
mary's got some deep shit, and mary does not forget
and this is how mary's garden grows, and this is how mary has her ghosts
and into the eyes of the jackyl i say ka-boom
now we begin descent, to where we've never been
there is no going back, this wasn't meant to last
this is a hell on earth, we are meant to serve
and she will never learn
bye bye, baby goodbye

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[> Arghhhhh !!!! -- Stranger, 12:55:53 12/27/01 Thu

That's the second time you got me near crying over a story Moose, will you stop it ?! :)
What am I saying... Go on ! More extraordinary stories, with a sad bittersweet mood that just enraptures exactly wat I love about Buffy & Spike
:)

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[> Re: Fight rerun hell! Read my 3rd story! :-) (long) -- Brian, 12:56:49 12/27/01 Thu

Moose, another great story and you leave us with a hope (and need)for a sequel. I love your ear for dialogue. I could hear the characters in their words. If you keep this up, you'll be creating a novel length Buffy adventure. Write on, Dude!

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[> So very good!!! -- Deeva, 14:44:28 12/27/01 Thu

Your dialog is amazing! I loved the mood toward the end very bittersweet. If I were a crier, I would've been tearing up. I can't wait for the 4th one!
;o)

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[> Another success, Moose! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:33:39 12/27/01 Thu

And my favorite line(s):

"I think itís working," Warren said.

"How do you know?" Asked Andrew as all three crowded around the device.

"This light is blinking," Warren said, pointing to a small red bulb.

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[> Very nice...... -- Rufus, 19:27:43 12/27/01 Thu

You picked up on Buffy's fear of failure and abandonment.

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[> Preview of Story #4 -- Moose, 19:43:28 12/27/01 Thu

Story #4 Preview

Moose: Okay, letís start with casting. Um, Buffy, youíre in it of course.
Buffy: Of course.
Moose: And Spike youíre needed too.
Spike: Naked? Want me naked? Or maybe Buffy naked. I could go for that.
Buffy: Ugh, youíre such a pig.
Moose: No, well, weíll see. Depends on the lighting.
Dawn: Can I be in a scene? Maybe with Spike, um...naked Spike?
Spike: Hey, watch it, niblet.
Moose: Um, maybe not naked Spike, but with Spike. Dialogue with Spike.
Dawn: Humph. I never get to do anything fun.
Moose: Weíll see about that. Next up, our guest star. Is Faith here?
Faith: Yeah, boss.
Buffy: Whatís she doing here?!!
Faith: Great. Oh, this is so not what I want right now.
Moose: Please! Letís not get into it yet. Weíll hash some of this stuff out in story #4. Okay?
Faith: Yeah, whatever. Do you have Angelís phone number? Iím feeling the urge to kill you. Painfully.
Moose: Here, use my phone. Itís on speed-dial.
Willow: What about me? Do I get a part?
Moose: Can you sing?
Willow: Uh...
Moose: And have you stopped freebasing magic?
Willow: Um...
Moose: Next!
Anya: Hi! Sorry Iím late, but Xander wanted a quickie in the elevator and...
Xander: Shut up, An!
Moose: Okay. Anya and Xander will get a small role again...
Anya: Small? Iím never going to get rich doing small roles! Give me something BIG! Like Julia Roberts BIG! I can do Julia Roberts. Uh, not in a lesbian Willow kind of way, unless you want me too. Iím sure Xander wouldnít mind.
Xander: Not a bit!
Moose: Uh, well weíll keep that in mind, I mean, Iíll think about it...no maybe that wouldnít be such a good idea. How about...weíll see. Okay?
Anya: O.K.
Xander: Sure. Say, do they have anything to eat around here?
Moose: Follow Faith. I think she just killed a stage hand.
Xander: Gotcha.
Moose: Okay! That will about do it. Iíll go climb into my dank hole and see about giving you all something to say. See ya!
All: Bye!

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[> [> Can't wait... ;o) -- WW, 22:41:20 12/27/01 Thu

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[> Favorite Line -- Malandanza, 16:53:50 12/28/01 Fri

"Well dear, confidentially speaking," Joyce said, leaning in close, almost whispering. "Itís not like they let you back in once you leave."

Serious angst -- her mother is in Hell (thanks to Dawn) and she is destined for it as well (thanks to her friends). Creepy.

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[> Re: Fight rerun hell! Read my 3rd story! :-) (long) -- Gwyn, 17:33:24 12/28/01 Fri

You've nailed the nerds to a tee! I'm not sure that I can run with Buffy still thinking of Angel in that way but the way you use it as a lead in to Spike's understanding of her is excellent. As with your last story, you really have a knack of getting inside Spike.

possibly bizarre speculation -- purplegrrl, 13:48:41 12/27/01 Thu

Could Doc be the grandfather who raised Jack from the dead (as mentioned in the episode "The Zeppo")?

Certainly Doc has the knowledge to raise the dead. We never see Jack's grandfather. Jack himself does the actual raising of the dead that we see in the episode. And it wouldn't be the first time that an obscure reference came back to haunt in a later season.

Discuss it amongst yourselves.
:-)

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[> Well the doc didn't seem human enough to be a part of Jack's family, but cool idea -- Stranger, 14:32:14 12/27/01 Thu

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[> [> Not biological, perhaps, but... -- purplegrrl, 09:33:49 12/28/01 Fri

Doc could be Jack's adopted or surrogate grandfather, or he could be someone Jack respects and so he calls him grandfather.

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[> even if that's not true (possible season 6 spoilers)... -- anom, 18:58:56 12/30/01 Sun

...what state of life/death/undeath were Jack & his gang in? We talked about the difference btwn. the way Buffy & her mother were brought back, and about the parallels btwn. Buffy's resurrection & the way a person is turned into a vampire, but unless I missed it, nobody brought Jack & his buddies into the discussion. They seemed to come back w/their faculties intact (i.e., no sicker in the head than they already were!). But their bodies were in whatever shape they had decomposed into while they were dead. The only clue I can think of to where they "were" in the meantime is that the first guy Jack raises asks him "How long was I down?" It sounds like he had no awareness of the time (8 months, I think) that had passed, but maybe something else was going on for them & they knew it was different from the living world.

Anyway, great question, purplegrrl. Maybe if Doc is part human (or Jack is part demon), he could be Jack's "gran'pappy." But I doubt we'll get an answer....considering how Jack ended up, it doesn't seem exactly relevant anymore.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG -- MrDave, 16:41:58 12/27/01 Thu

Just found this article on the GamingReport.com site. Thought I'd share my WHOOPEE with everyone!

Buffy RPG by Eden Studios

This link is also relevant:
Into Every Generation...

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[> at least that's ONE buffy game that'll be out... -- pocky, 22:11:48 12/27/01 Thu

i'm still waiting for the action/adventure game that is scheduled to be released on Playstation some time this century. -_-

~nathan~

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[> [> Re: at least that's ONE buffy game that'll be out... -- Andy, 04:05:24 12/28/01 Fri

That game hasn't been scheduled for the Playstation for some time. It's an Xbox exclusive now and should be out in another month or two.

Andy

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[> [> [> omg, this is officially the crappiest christmas EVER... -- pocky, 13:12:18 12/28/01 Fri

my next-door neighbor's house burned down yesterday--damaging my room. most of my stuff are being labeled "unrestorable." my christmas presents were sitting right underneath the fire. and now the buffy game is off playstation.

it's the mosttttttt wonderful tiiiiiiiiiiiime of the yeeeaaar!

~nathan~

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[> [> [> [> At least you still have your sense of humour ;o) -- Wisewoman, 14:21:35 12/28/01 Fri

Seriously, Nathan, condolences to you. We had a big celebrity fire in North Vancouver on Christmas Day. Clint Eastwood's ex-girlfriend Frances Fisher and his daughter, Francesca, narrowly escaped with their lives.

Having survived a fire years ago, I know it's one of the most devastating experiences to go through. Glad you're okay.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: At least you still have your sense of humour ;o) -- Dedalus, 15:13:30 12/28/01 Fri

God that would royally suck.

Cheerfully, no fires in my neck of the woods, just a lot of traffic.

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[> [> [> [> Re: omg, this is officially the crappiest christmas EVER... -- Rufus, 17:10:29 12/28/01 Fri

Please tell me you were insured??

Just for fun............Who would you like to interview from either show?....:):) -- Rufus, 04:53:09 12/28/01 Fri

I love talking to people, I find out the most facinating things just letting someone talk about what they love to do. We speculate what goes on in this show ad nauseum, but what I'd love to do is just get a chance to talk to some of the people that make the show we love. So, if you could have a nice comfortable chat with the person of your choice, what would you ask? What is important to you to know about either BVS or ATS? The questions can be as serious or fluffy as you'd like. So, tell me who, and what you would ask?

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[> James Marsters -- Cactus Watcher, 06:37:59 12/28/01 Fri

He seems like a bright and interesting guy. I think I'd ask first about funny foul-ups on set, since I've never seen any bloopers from BTVS. I think the truly important thing about the show is the end product, so I'd just like to chat with him on stuff in the background; fluff and gossip. I think it would be fun to just listen to what HE would liked to say about the show.

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[> [> Joss -- Brian, 06:48:10 12/28/01 Fri

Well, gee, why not?

I'd ask him about how much of Buffy and Angel is luck and how much is carefully planned. Is each character the shepherd of their role? Plus, how creating a TV family, and from what I read, a personal family, affected his life style, choices, visons.

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[> [> [> Re: Joss -- Rob, 11:06:54 12/28/01 Fri

Me, too. Joss definitely. To be able to ask him questions and pick his brain a little would be incredible. He's such a genius. He's one of the few people I am truly in awe of.

Rob

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[> [> Ditto -- Deeva, 10:04:45 12/28/01 Fri

He seems like a really interesting person. I've seen him once on Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher, and other than being dismissed by the "big brains" on the show as some guy from Hollywood, he went up against the politicos pretty well. He seems to have led an interesting life. That and he's got charisma.

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[> [> [> Argh...I meant to say James. -- Deeva, 10:07:13 12/28/01 Fri

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[> Sarah -- Javoher, 12:13:50 12/28/01 Fri

I'd ask her about the craft, how she does what she does, how she visualizes, how she makes transitions work from scene to scene.

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[> [> Re: Sarah -- dsf, 12:29:13 12/28/01 Fri

That sounds wonderful. She seems so driven, dedicated. I might ask her if she was always that way (after all, acting is a career that demands it) or if Buffy's rubbed off on her a little.

dsf

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[> [> [> Re: Sarah -- Solitude1056, 19:46:21 12/28/01 Fri

She seems so driven, dedicated. I might ask her if she was always that way (after all, acting is a career that demands it) or if Buffy's rubbed off on her a little.

Indeed, or perhaps if she's rubbed off on Buffy!

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[> [> [> [> Good point! -- dsf, 12:18:43 12/30/01 Sun

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[> Re: Just for fun............Who would you like to interview from either show?....:):) -- JCC, 13:32:32 12/28/01 Fri

For me it's gotta be Joss.
I'd love to have an hour to sit down and talk about the ins and outs of the show with the man behind it.

Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- JCC, 08:17:20 12/28/01 Fri

My fave is Anya.
Just watching her cope with her growing humanity will make me laugh all day. Who is yours?

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Rob, 09:28:08 12/28/01 Fri

Mine is Anya also. I just adore her to itty bitty bits and pieces! No one on either show makes me laugh as hard as Anya does. I also find her trying to cope with humanity very moving at times, especially in her classic speech in "The Body."

Rob

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[> [> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Brian, 09:59:35 12/28/01 Fri

Xander for me. He's such a normal guy. Of course, he has a dark side, but he really is a warrior for the light without any super strength, just a super soul.

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[> [> [> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- MayaPapaya9, 10:58:38 12/28/01 Fri

Buffy. She's strong and resilient and funny and sweet and everything I try to be.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Moose, 11:43:29 12/28/01 Fri

Spike. He get's all the best lines.

"Hasn't got a death wish? Bitch won't need one."

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Tirtzah, 13:44:50 12/28/01 Fri

"Spike. He get's all the best lines."

Definitely! I first got into Buffy when a friend sat me down and made me watch Becoming. I decided that I was sold on the show as soon as Spike sang his "Some-one wasn't wor-thy!" to Angelus. So Spike's always remained my favorite, though I really love all the characters. A lot of people seem to have issues with Dawn, but I can't help liking her, she reminds me in looks and personality a lot of my little sister, sometimes to a freakish extent.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Gwyn, 16:53:46 12/28/01 Fri

I have to agree here for the same reason. But also because the story of his struggle to be better than he is is a very human one. That he tries to be better than his destiny seems to have laid out for him, and that he does so for love, gives his story a romantic allure that is hard to resist. But the real pull of the character is that he represents the complex moral choices and the grey areas that make up the path we all follow when we try to figure out how to do good in a world that does not offer easy options. Buffy's story is similarly inspiring but when you are the Chosen one the temptations are not as great and the need for a helping hand not so dire. I suppose you could say she has the advantage of a better upbringing and lot in life. Spike's character has a higher moral mountain to climb and the abyss always yawns before him. For me anyway, his journey up that mountain, perhaps because he stumbles along the way, is what mostly gets my attention in the show. Spike's journey to redemption is full of perilous choices and he is so close to the abyss, indeed he has plummeted to its depths in the past, that, dramatically speaking, he keeps me fascinated. James Master's outstanding portrayal of Spike is,undoubtedly, one of the reasons for my fascination with the character as well.

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- vampire hunter D, 11:55:22 12/28/01 Fri

My overall favorite is Faith. I really like her attitude, and she's the character I most identify with.I also thinkit's cool that under that rebellious, blase act of hers there really is a caring person.

My favorite Angel Character is Cordy. But, that's mostly because of her tits.

I don't have a fovorite Buffy character. I was starting to like Dawn, but she's been used so little since "Afterlife" that she's almost a background character. They need to find somthing to do with her, quick. It's disappointing seeing what could be a very interesting character go to waste.

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[> Willow -- Shaglio, 12:47:27 12/28/01 Fri

She's the reason I started watching the show in the first place. I have a weakness for cute redheads and she just had this adorable personality. I even liked the . . . hesitant . . . picking and choosing of . . . words . . . that she does. And she has this innocent sense of humor:

Buffy: It was terrible. I moped over you for months. Sitting in my room listening to that Divinyls song 'I Touch Myself'.

(later)

Willow: (realizes) Oh, that's what that song is about?!

[taken from Psyche's transcripts]

aaahhhhh, Willow, you slay me ;)

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Andy, 12:58:37 12/28/01 Fri

Buffy. Went it comes down to it, I just think she's a great hero to root for, a perfect mixture of flawed human weaknesses with great inspiring strengths. And it helps that I'm consistently in awe of how Gellar plays her. Exactly the right actress playing exactly the right part at the right time. It's always a magical thing when that happens :)

Andy

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[> [> I agree...definately Buffy -- Kerri, 22:56:26 12/29/01 Sat

Exactly what you said Andy. The character is just so great. Yes, she does have flaws but that's what makes her human (although maybe not quite so human at the moment :)) She is a great hero and just overall as you said she's a good person that you can't help but love and root for. And once again totally agree that SMG is just amazing. She so completely becomes Buffy and it seems so natural. The character of Buffy is the reason I watch the show.

I also really like Spike, Giles, Tara, and Dawn. Spikes great, he's a wonderfully complex character who embodies all of the later seasons' ambiguities. It's kind of funny both Tara and Dawn annoyed me a bit at first but they really have become some of my favorite characters. Both developed so much in the past two seasons. And, well, I've always liked Giles. Also Willow's great too. Wow. I just like everyone, dont't I?

This may seem strange, and I'm not sure if any of you agree but I find the reason that I like AtS a little less than BtVS is I just don't like the characters as much. They are interesting and complex but there is just something that makes me love the Buffy characters more, I honestly can't put my finger on it. I mean, I like Angel but in terms of being the hero he just isn't what Buffy is. I like Gunn a lot and I wish he'd be developed more.

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[> [> [> Re: I agree...definately Buffy -- Andy, 05:40:09 12/30/01 Sun

I love all the rest of the Buffy characters too but as much as I like the rest, it's still ultimately Buffy's show :) I honestly don't know if I'd be able to keep watching if they took her away for some reason.

Regarding Angel, I like Cordy a lot, and Wesley seems to have grown into a very good character. Gunn is cool despite being underused as you say. Angel, OTOH, is alright but I agree that he just isn't as much of a pull as Buffy is on her show. I just don't think the character has as much range as Buffy does, although part of that might be due to Boreanaz's acting limitations. He's come a long way but he still can't quite take it to the next level the way that Gellar does when she needs to. He's like the Reggie Miller to her Michael Jordan :)

Actually, I think the real breakout character on Angel was Lindsay. I'm kind of amazed by that considering that when he first showed up he was just an annoying side character in the premiere, but later in the season I kept noticing that every time the character appeared the show suddenly started getting much more interesting. It's a pity they had to write him out :)

Andy

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Diagnoztix, 13:30:57 12/28/01 Fri

Call me a bore but I like Giles! His sense of humor and the mixture of wit and ignorance - and the fact that you can't always judge a book by its cover... But then again Buffy and Spike are pretty high on my list too!

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[> [> you're a bore -- JBone, 19:57:35 12/28/01 Fri

this is a joke

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[> You can't make me pick one....you just Can't.......:):) -- Rufus, 14:11:37 12/28/01 Fri

I'll give you a list.....On BTVS, of course the number one is Buffy, without her there is no show. But I do love Giles, Xander and Willow.

On AtS my favorite is Wesley followed closely by Cordy and Gunn.

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[> [> And on AtS... -- Monique, 16:25:16 12/28/01 Fri

My fav would have to be Wesley as well, followed by Angel and Darla (and Lindsey!! you must not forget Lindsey...)

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[> [> [> Re: And on AtS... -- Rufus, 17:05:26 12/28/01 Fri

My bad, can never forget Lindsay....must be amnesia brought on by separation anxiety.....;)

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[> No doubt about it... Spike -- Monique, 16:10:16 12/28/01 Fri

He gets the best lines, and he is a fascinating character... I love bad!Spike, and I love season 5 love- sick puppy!Spike as well... I guess I just love SPike!

On the other hand, I really love pretty much everybody in the cast... I love Giles, Buffy, season 2!Willow and Anya as well... and Xander, though sometimes irritating (well, for a former B/A shipper at least ;), has a heart of gold, and you have to love the guy. But if I have to pick just one... then it has to be Spike!

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Arya Stark, 17:36:58 12/28/01 Fri

I'll have to go with a Season 6 Spike. Spike has always been very cool, but this season he seems to be very complex and I just love that.

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[> I really like Tara, and ... -- Annoying1, 18:26:41 12/28/01 Fri

would have written a lomg post extolling her virtues, but reading everyone else's posts reminded me of how much I like each character, depending on the episode. I can't slight Willow, Anya and Giles.

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- JBone, 20:22:03 12/28/01 Fri

For me, Buffy will always be my favorite character, but if I can have a second place, it would be Anya. I swear, it seems that ME has been writing Spike into fulfilling the fans' pipe dreams about whatever, and in the same way they started to do that with Anya. Only I never asked for it, and this chick is awesome.

I believed all this before OMwF, and after I saw that episode, I can only applaud EM and NB for their enthusiastic performance that capped the first half hour.

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[> Buffy -- Cactus Watcher, 06:23:00 12/29/01 Sat

I think the reason I don't like season 5 as much as a lot of other people did was that Buffy was pretty one dimensional. Either she was doting over her mother or doting over Dawn. This year she's back to being complicated, but in a new and different way.

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[> Re: Another Just for fun......Who is your fave character & why? -- Katrina, 08:47:45 12/29/01 Sat

Cordelia. Even though she would have picked on me in high school and I would have despised her, now I see I have much in common with the diva-esque. I started being a big fan when she and Willow were locked in the closet and she was praying that if they made it out alive, she'd never be mean to anyone again, "unless they really deserve it." I cheered out loud. I also liked the fact that she joined in the heroics of the gang without even liking them personally. She didn't have the Sunnydale denial thing -- she knew evil was out there, so she had to sort of sigh and help out, even if complaining the whole time.

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[> Need you even ask? (NT) -- Spike Lover, 19:17:05 12/30/01 Sun

Funny story -- MayaPapaya9, 10:55:50 12/28/01 Fri

Okay, I'm on vacation in florida right now,staying at my relatives' house and last night we weren't doing anything so I decided to watch the Buffy reruns on FX at 6. Sadly my twelve year old brother and cousin arrive claiming they need the TV for their video games and we fought for ten minutes, me threatening to resume the beating up of my brother which I haven't done in years, when I decided to give in and let them watch it with me (with the strict rules of No Talking during the show and No Snickering or Making Fun of any aspect of this show). And guess what? They liked it! I explained the mythology and history of the characters during commercial breaks cause of course I love talking about my favorite TV show and they loved hearing about it. AND the episodes in question were Passions and Becoming Pt. 1, excellent episodes to start Buffy on in my opinion.

In short I am the proud maker of two new Buffy converts! I can honestly say that this will do wonders for my relationship with my brother, which before was pretty much nonexistant. Imagine Buffy bringing families together! Hahahahaha. Anyways I had to share this story with all my friends here. We are taping tonight's episodes which I believe will include Becoming Part 2, and they are quite excited. I hope you all are having a great holiday too! We're seeing Lord of the Rings at four, very excited for that!

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[> Re: Funny story -- Rob, 11:05:03 12/28/01 Fri

Excellent! Go you!

I've actually recently converted my best friend to a full-blown Buffy fan. He started off as a casual viewer, because he didn't get all of the mythology. I sat down with him, like you did, although I didn't do it during commercial breaks, and gave him a long lecture on every aspect of the Buffyverse. I showed him key episodes from the past seasons, and now, ever since the beginning of the fifth season, he has been a total convert. Since a young age, he has been a major Trekkie, and just recently he admitted to me that he thinks "Buffy" is a better show!!!

Rob

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[> You two.........such good recruiters.......:):) -- Rufus, 13:26:53 12/28/01 Fri

You mean we actually have to stop beating up our little brothers........mine will be so relieved to hear that one......:):):):)

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[> [> My little brothers... -- Deeva, 14:38:47 12/28/01 Fri

(only they're not so little, they tower over me by 6 inches but I still kick their butts!) watch Buffy for different reasons than mine. They think that Buffy's "hot". And they like the fact she can fight.

Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Diagnoztix, 13:34:29 12/28/01 Fri

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- JCC, 13:47:24 12/28/01 Fri

Annoying? That's tough.
Riley was kind of annoying.I'd like to see him evil.I don't think any of the current cast are annoying.

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- JCC, 13:48:49 12/28/01 Fri

Annoying? That's tough.
Riley was kind of annoying.I'd like to see him evil.I don't think any of the current cast are annoying.

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[> I'm in trouble now -- Shaglio, 13:50:46 12/28/01 Fri

I wouldn't say annoying, but my least favorite of all the characters on the show would have to be Buffy. I like her, but I like all the other characters so much more. I know I'll probably be banned from this message board for life now, but I just had to get that off my chest.

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[> [> Agreed Shaglio -- QuakingInFear, 13:53:52 12/28/01 Fri

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[> [> I agree -- Slayrunt, 21:52:14 12/29/01 Sat

She isn't annoying, but certainly not the most interesting to me. I just couldn't stand the whole B/A affair. I could barely watch the two on screen together.

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[> Soooo easy.... -- Monique, 16:23:14 12/28/01 Fri

Riley, of course! I did like the poor guy at first... but he got all *boring* and most of the time I just wanted to slap him. So my vote goes to Riley, although season 2 Cordy was kind of annoying as well...

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Gwyn, 16:28:52 12/28/01 Fri

Easy. Riley

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Deeva, 16:50:42 12/28/01 Fri

At first it was Dawn but then she grew on me. Now in retrospect it's......Riley. Poor guy. He became really clueless towards the end. Deserved more than the write off he got.

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Arya Stark, 17:34:16 12/28/01 Fri

I'll have to go with the rest of the crowd. Season 5 Riley.

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[> In her first couple of appearances, Dawn... -- Annoying1, 18:17:41 12/28/01 Fri

but of course she was supposed to be, at least to Buffy, and she did it so well she had me climbing the walls thinking "Surely the Slayer is allowed one non-demon kill!"

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Solitude1056, 19:44:57 12/28/01 Fri

Anya - she started out kinda cute in her oh-so-literal way, but at times this season she's seemed like a one-note musician. And after watching The Body, I know the actress is way capable of more, so it's especially aggravating to see Anya become Little Miss Whiny Insensitive Capitalist after making so much progress during season 5. Strangely, Willow's self-indulgence and self-delusion makes her Annoying Character No. 2 - compared to those two, Buffy's self-pity and self-absorption is rather amatuer.

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[> [> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- sasha, 20:06:45 12/28/01 Fri

Definately I have to agree its Anya. Maybe because I've only seen her in Season 6 (well, I just got to see S3 The Wish), but my first thought was 'she's a replacement for S1 Cordy!'

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[> [> [> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:08:28 12/29/01 Sat

I think it's Anya as well. But, she's supposed to be. After all, as sahsa says, she's taken Cordelia's place as Miss Never-Quite-Gets-It. I enjoy the character, but she is annoying.

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[> [> ITA, Sol. She's radically underused. -- rowan, 07:39:22 12/29/01 Sat

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[> [> I agree with your choice for number two... -- Malandanza, 15:42:07 12/29/01 Sat

but Anya's too funny to be truly annoying. Patting Giles on the back to comfort him in OMWF, or assuring Buffy that "no, you're fine" once she realizes that she shouldn't be talking about Buffy's possible problems in front of Buffy or docking Buff's pay because she forgot to add in a delivery charge to her first customer's bill, or looking deeply into Giles' eyes and telling him with absolute sincerity and true depth of emotion "You were right, it was the wrong book" -- these are instances where no other character would believably be able to fill in.

Willow, though, is the spoiled, only child of upper class parents and has behaved as such. Narcissistic and willful, she acts recklessly, never paying for the consequences of her own actions -- her friends are always there to bail her out. Now, perhaps, that is changing and Willow may become less annoying. In fact, the whole thing was probably just a plot by Joss to make us disgusted by her actions so she could be believably redeemed (Joss loves redemption).

The number one most annoying character for me was Joyce. An alcoholic absentee mother in the first two seasons, she gradually was rehabilitated during her last years on the show -- again, a plot by Joss to make us like her so we would feel Buffy's pain when he killed Joyce off. I was disappointed by "The Body" -- I had been so looking forward to Joyce's death, and then Joss had to make her death all angsty.

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[> Tough one. Toss up Btween Dawn & Riley. -- nay, 20:56:31 12/28/01 Fri

I don't like either of them. Find them both boreing and uninteresting to the extreme.

I found him plain and her whinney.

~nay

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[> The Legion of Dorkness. Need I say more? -- vampire hunter D, 10:28:43 12/29/01 Sat

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[> [> lol!!!!!!!!! that's the best name i've ever seen for them! -- anom, 16:23:03 12/30/01 Sun

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[> Tie between Dawn and Anya -- MayaPapaya9, 10:55:45 12/29/01 Sat

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- yabyumpan, 15:15:28 12/29/01 Sat

Sorry but I've got to say Buffy, I just find her too whiney, I know she's had a crap time but she still irritates me.

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[> Re: Okay - Who's the most annoying Buffy character? :-) -- polyhymnia, 16:21:36 12/29/01 Sat

i always thought cordelia was kind of annoying...rude, frumpy, smart but didn't act like it, shallow...yep, sounds annoying to me...
least annoying, i think, is probably xander. or giles...kendra was cool too. too bad she was killed by batty druscilla...

God bless

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[> Never could stand Whistler... -- grifter, 12:06:49 12/30/01 Sun

...good thing he hasnīt been around for a looooooong time...


Current board | More December 2001