December 2000 posts

November 2000  

January 2001

In the post of the Soul the word I was waiting for finally was used honour(integrity). I was so bugged that I missed the details of the fight in the alley that I did a complete slowdown of the action. The vamp that was with Riley was beside the pimp she had no fight in her he had beaten her and it appeared that she had to be forced to be there. When the action started she ducked out of the way to the side and cowered in fear. She had no intent to do harm. When everyone else was dead she was noticed by Buffy. She was bruised up and was terrified. Buffy appeared to let her go which is what Buffy would normally would have done then after flashing to realize who the vamp was Buffy waited and threw the spear into the vamps back. Buffy acted without integrity she let her anger at Riley colour her judgement. If Buffy always had killed all vamps be there a danger or not I wouldn't have thought this way. Plus the motion of stabbing someone in the back is normally considered a cowardly act. Buffy has always had a strong sense of how much judgement to mete out this one was personal. To me going against her own inate honour code.
Why blubber about a demon? Because Buffy has always said she didn't do certain things because she knew it was wrong. Why expect Buffy to honour her word to a vampire such as Spike (who has frequently tried to kill her)if we also don't expect her to use her power as needed not to an excess.
Watching in slow motion I got to see just how wrong Buffy acted and Xander was right killing that vamp won't make her feel better. The creature I saw was a cowering beaten bruised terrified shell of a being. The act of spearing a hepless creature in the back showed a side of Buffy I hope she can deal with. If you have a code of honour you have to follow it all the time or no one will trust you.
To the people who will say she was a vamp she got what she deserved you have missed something. If you can say such a blanket statement about any being then why are Angel Spike ect. still here? An act of integrity of honour does not include the execution of a helpless demon or person because they exist. What I saw was a cowardly misuse of the power Buffy was given. I hope she has consequences for this act. As a slayer Buffy still has alot to learn.

I hope she has consequences for this act.

Yes. The dusting of the vamp hooker is less the issue than is Buffy's integrity. Buffy crossed a line when she speared the vamp a defenseless entity as you say whom she did not know for certain had killed anyone. She stabbed the vamp in the back no less. I think that Buffy will have to answer for the choice she made. In fact I will be quite disappointed if there are no consequences for her. I don't think that killing (demon or non-demon) without impunity is Buffy's raison d'Ítre.
"Talk about beating a dead horse.

What Buffy would usually do is Slay the Vampire.

But with hooker vamp she hestiated. Perhaps she ""felt sorry"" for the vamp perhaps she wanted not to slay out of anger - whatever.

Thankfully she came to her senses and slayed the vampire in the end. Had she not people would have died. They might have been strangers to Buffy or maybe even friends but regardless their lives have meaning.

If she had let hooker vamp go it would have remind me of Peter Parker (spiderman). He didn't stop a fleeing criminal even though he easily could have. Later that same criminal happened to kill his uncle."
I don't know what show you have watched but is it the same one where Buffy cuts off the chase when it becomes pointless? Buffy has a definate honour code and it doesn't include killing the harmless...or Spike would be in a jar on her dresser. The fact that she went against what her instincts would normally direct her to do should bother anyone. Crossing the line to abusing power can be a gradual thing. Buffy did the first step.
Talk about beating a dead horse.

I think that Into the Woods was less about Riley and Buffy spliting up than it was about showing Buffy's reaction to Riley's betrayal. I think killing the vamp hooker was the pivotal point of the episode and I think it will be the turning point for the season.

"I have said before the smallest act of vengeance can spiral out of control. When Xander asked her if that made her feel any better I went she's going down. There is no justification for Buffys last kill that I will buy. The excuse just a Vampire pisses me off. Some of the stuff I see I go insert name of minority or other so called worthless person for the word ""vampire"" and you may see where I going.
I'll tell you why the word Hooker got me going and why I'm ticked. What I'm telling you is true so I can't go into much detail.

Some years back I knew this guy who thought nothing more of carving up a hooker like you would carve a Christmas turkey. The girl he killed(the details sickened even me and I thought I had heard it all)was a street girl he picked up and dumped in garbage. Was the hooker his problem...no...he was having problems with his girlfriend. His solution was to act out his anger at the hooker because she was ""worthless"" she didn't count. He acted out his revenge on someone he felt people wouldn't care about.

When I saw ITW I found it an easy judgement until Masquerade asked a simple question. It's in the thread ""Buffy is a Killer"". That is why I came to the conclusion that I thought like a monster. The first step to genocide is deciding the people you kill are worthless. My beef with Buffy right now is that I think she better regain her honour. Slayers aren't just chosen they become....Buffy is a work in progress."
"I feel sorry that the girl died even if she was a hooker. I wish that vampire didn't kill her.

But she is dead. The vampire which took her body had to be slayed. Just like Gunn's sister had to be slayed. Just like every vampire has to be slayed.

I saw no vengence in Buffy when she slayed any of those vampires. She even told them to walk away from the fight.

I was quite concerned when Buffy was going to let that vampire go. I can only speculate on why she was going to. Perhaps it was so she wouldn't engage in a ""personal"" slay the whole slaying out of anger stuff but when I looked at the fight she almost felt sorry for the vampire. As there was some kind kinship between them as they were both ""used"" by Riley (or that is how she felt about Riley's actions).

But whatever personal reasons guided her decision to let the vamp go at first I am glad that she came to her senses and did her duty. She has no right to put innocents at risk for some personal hangup.

Buffy conducted herself professionally and with great maturity. Watch that scene again and you will see Buffy at her finest."
"At one point of this discussion it has been said that Buffy slayed ""without emotion"" and another it was said that she slayed with ""vengence in her heart"".

What I saw was a Vampire Slayer doing her duty. If anything she had pity for that hooker vamp. I feel that Buffy felt for the lack of a better discription a connection with the vamp. I saw no anger within Buffy at that point directed towards the vampire.

I am wondering if people could have handled that scene better had Buffy slayed with some angry statement. ""No one messes with my man"" (although I am sure Buffy would have thought of something more clever to say than that.)

It seems like people could handle that better than this whole ""Slayer's duty stuff"".

I think many people are totally misinterpreting the scene. Perhaps you wanted to see the vengence and the lack of it in Buffy's heart disappointed you (subconsciously of course)."
Perhaps what they should have done was Buffy and Hooker vamp should have formed an alliance. Get Anya in on it as she has experience in this type of stuff. Forget about demons and enact revenge on the true evil out there - MEN of course.
I'll go to the transcripts of Fool For Love and give you Spike on the numbers game...

How many of my kind you reckon you've done?...And we just keep coming. But you can kill a hundred a thousand a thousand thousand and the enemies of hell besides and all we need is for one of us-just one-sooner or later to have the thing we're all hoping for...One good day.

Giles told Buffy that dealing with this problem was a waste of the slayers efforts. So you're worried about one pathetic creature while the big and I mean big evil could kill on a big time scale. Buffy was wasting her talent and time on vengeance. There are too many vampires to kill them all even Spike was clear on that. The slayer is not the vampire exterminator. She simply can't kill vampires on that scale. She was meant to deal with Glory. You worry about one pathetic creature when Glory (who could possibly vaporize the city to get the key) is carrying out her plan. If the vampires were meant to be wiped off the planet Buffy would kill everyone she meets...she doesn't. You say it's great she killed the hooker but Angel and Spike are still way more a threat to mankind and they are still here. They are vampires and you say she has to kill all vampires I take that to mean no exceptions.
To think that the cowardly act of stabbing someone in the back is a fine mature moment then I only have one thing to say...you scare the hell out of me.
Buffy has a duty...she isn't doing her job...she is wasting time on the small potatoes.


Buffy was wasting her talent and time on vengeance.

Didn't take much time. And again she wasn't looking for a fight at that moment. She told them to walk away.

And again not vengeance duty. I didn't see her acting out of vengeance at that moment. The only time I saw that was when she burned the house down although one can see that as removing a hazzard in that way protecting (albeit temporary) all those like Riley who might be attracted there.
Finally-
two people with some commen sense!
You might be the Dark Prince or a hooker.

If you are a vampire Buffy will slay you.

Dracula was royality but that didn't stop Buffy from slaying him.

She has slayed many upper class vampires. And a quite a few middle class ones too.
"Jeez Rufus what a horrendous story! Are you involved in police work or was the guy some aquaintance? Brrr.....

Only future eps will tell if Aquitaine is correct but there have certainly been numerous past situations where a seeminly passing moment turns out to be very significant.

Buffy confesses to Giles in B vs.D that she has been 'hunting' not patrolling. The season so far seems to point towards Buffy getting in closer touch with her essential Slayer nature. We all know though that Buffy's anger when it occurs is a two-edged sword. She used it to dust the vamps in ITW in mere seconds but ended up commiting an act of very dubious honor in slaying the vamp hooker.

Just prior to writing this reply I had flashed on the dream sequence where Faith is standing before Buffy the knife still sticking out of her abdomen and asking Buffy ""Aren't you ever gonna take this out?""

A key difference in the scene when Buffy stabbed Faith on the rooftop was that in the instant after she did there appeared a look of shock horror and remorse on her face-- her raging anger disappeared in seconds when she realized that she had gone too far.

The look on her face after stabbing the vamp hooker was cold and emotionless. That pretty much says it all and it certainly can't be an accident or a throwaway moment the writers cooked up for a lark.

"
"
""The look on her face after stabbing the vamp hooker was cold and emotionless. That pretty much says it all and it certainly can't be an accident or a throwaway moment the writers cooked up for a lark.""

Again emotionaless. She wasn't acting out of revenge nor anger. Just doing her job as a Slayer.

She is finally becoming the Slayer we all knew she could be. She is maturing."
If she was acting out of revenge she would have not been emotionless. She wasn't acting out of revenge.

She is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
To the first question Shhhhhhhhhh(not anymore but I still hang out in reputable places)to the second part of your question yes again. Told you I knew monsters that one happened to go the school with me. He was a brother of a friend and I always got the creeps around him. Years later I found out why. There were warning sighns with this one years before he got caught.
I went back to the ep. ITW and when I slowed it down got p/o that I missed the obvious. The fight was very fast so the background stuff was easy to miss.
ok here's my ten cents worth...was Buffy killing for duty (Righto. Passing by all the vamps chewing down on the local populace of innocents she goes to the Vamp No Tell Motel) It is specious to argue that the girl meant nothing to Buffy...in fact she had fine and imperative evidence that she did't kill...Riley looked fine to me ehen she was snacking on him but maybe because his shirt was off. This wasn't vamp patrol duty it was...personal. If Buffy should stake All vamps should we execute her for what Angel has done? My my what a tangle of illogic THAT is.LOL
Actually I do have this clause that if I don't understand it...chalk it up to magic.
New Clause:
This is the special insanity clause for slayers who find their boyfriends in a shirts off situtation. It gives the slayer a one time get out of jail free. Buffy just used hers.
This is a one time deal only for slayers so remember ladies we can't use it.

There is also the exception to the rule alot of people use with vampires. Thou shall not kill vampires you have dated or bought beer and spicey buffalo wings for. Vampires such as Angel and Spike fulfill the useful role as dance partners for Buffy. This makes them alive so stakes made of an alternative material from wood should be used. They also are rendered exempt oweing to the fact that Angel in LA goes shirtless and as Riley is gone Spike has cheerfuly taken over Rileys shirt free post.
"Rufus you kill me.

I think all your amendments or notwithstanding clauses to the Buffyverse Constitution make perfect sense:) My personal favorite is ""Vampires such as Angel and Spike fulfill the useful role as dance partners for Buffy"". Who knew Sunnydale was so Utilitarian? ROFL."
Buffy should slay Spike.

She is very wrong not to.
LOL
Oh where do we start.
I think that Casper the Friendly Ghost here is missing the point Rufus and Aquitaine. (love your posts btw girls)
You see Casper Buffy will not kill Spike. Spike has immunities in her mind whether she ackowledges them or not.
And I feel that you're also missing Joss Whedon's/the writer's message this season. (one of them anyways)
That being a vampire a demon whatnot does not make you evil. The potential for evil exists within all upright creatures and that does include humans as well.
To say that one is responsible (indirectly or not) for another's actions seems morally askew.
If you are to say that you might as well say that all Germans are responsible for the actions of the Nazis etc.
I'd like it very much if you watched this season again if you can (or have it taped?). There is more emphasis on demons and vampires as beings they are humanized I suppose you could say.
And I agree entirely with Rufus and Aquitaine again.

ps happy new year!

--reina
reina I love your post. But now I have to consider special clauses for ghosts. It should start with a pay raise for Phantom Dennis.
"If you are to say that you might as well say that all Germans are responsible for the actions of the Nazis etc.

Not today's Germans. I don't believe in the ""Sins of the fathers"" stuff. You can't blame people for something that happened before their time. To do so would be as racist as the Nazis were.

But for the Germans who did nothing at the time the answer is yes they were very responsible. Those from that time who are still alive they should be ashamed.

All that evil needs to prosper is for good people to do nothing.
"
"heh.
how very righteous. and who decides whom is evil and who is not? Or perhaps ""what"" is a better word than ""who"".
Oh well. I for one am anticipating Mr. Whedon's twists and turns and can't wait for the next new episode!

--reina"
Thanks Reina;)

Happy New Year to you too (and too everyone else out there)!
That being a vampire a demon whatnot does not make you evil.

Right. The fact that Spike is _evil_ is what makes him evil. He's a willful murderer and he would be again without the chip. He makes the vamphooker look like she should be in stained-glass. He may be developing squishysquidgy feelings for Buffy but that doesn't make him good it just makes him more selectively evil. This season may yet see Spike redeemed but for the present he's not and I agree with the ghost that Buffy should have staked him long ago. Spike has plagued her the past two seasons with his attempts at indirect evil to the point where it made no sense for her to keep him alive. In fact when he was gleefully recounting his killing of two Slayers in FFL _I_ wanted to reach through the screen and stake him. It made even less sense that Riley didn't stake him in the last episode; it would have been for the wrong reasons but for the purposes of the story it was ridiculus that Spike survived.

I don't think the vamphooker necessarily deserved to die though. That was a bad move on Buffy's part.
"I don't think we need to ""excute her"" but I will always blame Buffy for all the deaths that Angelus caused.

She had him at the mall. She could have slayed him there. But she couldn't bring herself to do it. So more people died including Miss Calendar."
"Can I ask you a question: Why are your posts always anonymous? I feel like I'm talking to a ghost.

""I don't think we need to ""execute her"" but I will always blame Buffy for all the deaths that Angelus caused.""

So in your mind Buffy would also be to blame for the death of the Wolfram and Hart lawyers (if they *are* in fact dead)... I think it is always dangerous to hold one person accountable for another person's (even a demon's) actions. Buffy's choice was ambiguous (at best) because:

1) Giles' said it was a waste of her Slayer time to go after an ambiguous evil. (BTW did anyone else think for a minute there that maybe Giles had indulged in some suck-fest when he was young - in his Ripper days)?

2) This vamp hooker may never have killed a single person. She may merely have sucked on them her entire vamp life. The point is Buffy didn't know one way or the other.

3) The torching the 'crib' was the same type of action as killing the vamp/tramp. An act of vengeance.

I hope other people have stuff to say about this because I think I have staked this topic to death in my own mind:)



"
"Yes indirectly she is responsible for the W & H lawyers.

Mind you I don't think she should lose any sleep on this.

Those lawyers got what they deserve.

I don't think Angel has ""gone too far"". Not yet.

Boo!"
There is NEVER EVER a 'duty' to kill. There are justifiable reasons to kill. When they occur people have the 'option' to kill not the 'duty'. The Slayer has been given the 'authority' to kill vampires but this is NOT the same thing as a 'mandate' to commit genocide of vampires. Anyone who would mandate the genocide of any sentient species has no moral authority. If we presume TPTB do have moral authority they could not have made such a mandate. Furthermore NO ONE is EVER morally responsible for the acts of another. If they actively support someone in doing an act of evil then they are a part of that act otherwise they are not. Buffy is NOT responsible for any acts committed by Dru etc.
Casper-Yes and if she had killed Angel all the individuals that he has saved in his quest for redemption would probably be dead. Individuals that the powers that be do not want dead.
Granted perhaps they could have found another being to do this. *shrugs*
But I must say that Buffy being a slayer and having supernatural abilities and whatnot does not give her the right to take all life. She is not technically connected to the powers that be and it is my opinion that she exists as the slayer to maintain balance not to disturb it.
Not all vampires and demons are evil and not all humans are good.
And as was previously stated ( I forget who by) she is a vampire Slayer. not an Exterminator.

--reina
Again not killing Slaying.

Vampires are parasites. And yes they should all be slayed whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Except that Vampire with a soul of course. But Angel even has told his friends that if he ever loses his soul again and becomes Angelus to slay him without hestitation.

I think that's partly what this episode was all about other than providing for the exit of Riley to also show Buffy's degeneration into a colder more primitive slayer. She is on a slippery slope to darkness right now. That's my theory anyway. We'll see if this pattern continues in Episode 11. If she's all back to normal slaying again in that episode then I guess I've read it all wrong.
"I thought Buffy handled that situation quite well. With a little help from her friend.

Perhaps she could have handled the situation a little better but give the girl a break. She was just coming off of the situation with her friend.

=====

Changing the discusion a bit when Dawn finally finds out about herself do you think there will be a stuggle between Buffy and Glory for 'little sis.'? In some ways Dawn might feel a kinship with Glory.

If there will be any ""darkside struggle"" this season I believe that is where it will take place. Can Buffy pull Dawn away from the dark side? Or will Dawn go with Glory?

I am just waiting for this scene.

Buffy (to Dawn) Move away Dawn.

Dawn (to Buffy) You can't tell me what to do. You aren't my sister you even said so.

Glory (to Dawn) They aren't your family you have nothing in common with them. I am your family we are alike you and I.

Joyce (coming out of the shadow) Dawn Millicent (or whatever her middle name is) Summers you do what your sister tell you to.


"
Considering the amount of disinformation disguised as spoilery that has been circulating of late I got to wondering why it is that we seem to want to spoil ourselves so much with hearsay. Is it our insatiable need for knowledge? Is it that we have no concept of delayed gratification? Is it that the show is so addictive we can't help ourselves?

Signed 'one who wishes she didn't know now what she didn't know then':)
"I love spoilery! So many times I read what someone thinks is going to happen. ""I have it on good authority..."" and Joss will do the complete opposite or do it in a way that leaves us looking at each other with our mouths hanging open! I anxiously head for this web site every week to see what you all think about the last episode or what's on the grapevine. If I had one wish I'd like to be a fly on the wall when Joss is sketching out each episode."
Spoilers are information from people who know. Conjecture and personal opinions from those of us who have to wait to find out what's actually going to happen doesn't qualify as a spoiler. We can have fun guessing might happen but we don't know.
Conjecture and personal opinions from those of us who have to wait to find out what's actually going to happen doesn't qualify as a spoiler.

I agree. That's why I like posting on this board. We discuss 'possibilities' and it's great. I took a look-see at some other sites and boards over the holidays and what I read there kind of took all the fun out of the speculation. That's what I was referring to in my post. I was wondering to myself why I didn't leave well enough alone why I was compelled to find out more than I wanted to know.

At any rate I have scurried back to this board quite happily:) It's 'safe' here. LOL.
I love this board. It amazes me at the variety of things that people see in each eppisode that I missed but that isn't spoilery. And I'm glad. I enjoy being surprised and watching each eppisode knowing as little as possible. It's fun to fantisize about whan could happen but so many times it doesn't.
"*** ""Is it that the show is so addictive we can't help ourselves?"" ***

Question asked and answered Aquitaine. ;)

But 'tis such a fine madness...

"
"I'm afraid the affliction is chronic as well. Woe is me! LOL

I'd feel much better if the line ""much madness is divinest sense"" hadn't been composed by an agoraphobic recluse. "
Any show that can get me to replay tapes like they're the Zabuder tapes(not sure of the spelling of the guy)has me hooked.
Most of my family just shakes their heads but my husband watches to understand what I'm talking about.
It would be embarrassing to try and explain my obsession to them. Plus how could I enjoy repeated viewings of Spike and Buffy kissing if I had a husband looking over my shoulder? :)

As for being spoiled I must admit I enjoyed the show more when I wasn't spoiled. The shocking twists were always the best part of the show. Yet I feel helpless to stop now that I am spoiled. I can't explain it except to say I have no willpower.
"hmmm...a support group. In my case my husband says ""why are you laughing? Are you on the philosophical vampire board again?"" And then he shrugs and lets me be. I enjoy the show. My teenage kids love the show. My cat loves the show. And my darling has probably never seen it...he's always off in the depths of computer geekdom writing code...and his hours didn't allow for Buffy viewing...if it's in syn dication I'll just leave a TV on channel...he'll look up at the first funny dialog."
Well if the cat likes it no wonder Whedon is doing so well. My husband got me a VCR to tape the shows upstairs out of his way. He likes sports. If a show makes me think I stick around...
Remember a frosted flakes commercial where a 50ish guy was embarassed to admit he was addicted to the cereal? That's the way I was for a while; I admit it freely know. In theory it's a show I shouldn't want to watch (totaly wrong demographic) but the Buffy/Angel show is the best (and nearly the only series worth watching) on TV. I too watch them over and over. I can't wait till the DVD season 1 & 2 sets are released in the US. The Brits appear to already have them.
Don't get me started on the DVD sets! Ever since October or whenever they first announced that they would be released in the U.S. I was absolutely delighted that I could now own BtVS in pristine digital glory rather than mediocre off-cable VHS. So what does Fox do? They give the sharp end of Mr. Pointy to loyal U.S. fans just to suck up to the syndication $$$. Now *maybe* the DVD's will be released 'late next year'. (Snorts...)

(Legal notice to Fox-- that' just *my* humble opinion)

There have been rumors that Fox could take over the show from the WB I certainly hope not if that's how they treat their customers (you know us??)

End of rant. (Sorry-- it all stinks of pointless vengeance anyway. ;)
"To whoever broadcasts the show: ""Don't mess with it and don't let your censors mess with it. Let Joss do it."""
The last rumor I heard (I read it in a magazine possibly TV Guide) was that either ABC or CBS (I can't remember which one) was looking to take over BtVS. Of course that would probably ruin the show or lead to cancellation since BtVS doesn't pull a big enough market share for one of the Big Three Networks.
"If they're not taking it over in the first place to kill it. And doesn't Disney own ABC? Can we say ""Goodbye steamy sex scenes?"" (or insert other possible questionable content in place of sex.)

BTW-Don't you just know that it'd get placed opposite ""Angel?"" "
I have got to get me a DVD player. The extra info that you can get off a DVD is great. We bought a Laser disc player and it was a waste of money. Now we can't find discs ect.
But Tony the Tiger...LOL..I love it...we could do a public service anouncement with some of us in the shadows encouraging other addicts/enthusiasts to come forward.
Rufus try doing searches on the net for laserdisc retailers. There are places like Ken Cranes that have been liquidating LD stock for cheap cheap (like $5 - $10). Or you could try Ebay for people looking to sell laser titles who recently upgraded to DVD.

There are very few new titles being pressed but there is a decent used market. Laser is not quite as superb as DVD but it's pretty close. It was the video industry's reference standard until DVD came along and without it there would have been no DVD.

What was sad was that laser was killed off prematurely. Many A/V dealers foolishly told customers to hold off and not buy a player that DVD was 'just around the corner'. That corner was almost *three years* in turning but in the meantime laser player and disc sales fell like a rock falling into the grand canyon. Now there are people like you who have a good piece of technology but find it hard to get discs.

They are out there though and at least they are real bargains. Good luck!
Thanks for the info....
"Hello to all. This is my first time responding
to this board just a little nervous I guess you can all say I am *the virgin* ;) Be Gentle!!!

I have been reading this board for several months and have looked at others....this one by far is the best. OnM JoRus and so many others...you guys kill me!!!

I have been hesitant to answer...I feel so inadequate...but I have learned so much. I finally just couldn't take it.

Back to the spoilery..this is why we are here to discuss our ""obsession"" with the Buffyverse and try to figure out where Joss is going to take us next. We have no idea..but it is so much fun to try. Sometimes we are right sometimes we are wrong!

Can't wait until next new eps...Oh the journey!!!!

Murdock"
Yes Murdock...but are you Canadian? My cat is....: )
JoRus take it easy on 'the Virgin'! LOL. Welcome Murdock. You certainly sound Canadian with all that apologising... Don't be afraid of us. We only bite in order to feed:)

BTW. How did my wonderful pseudo-pedantic subject line 'The Metaphysics of Spoilery' degenerate into 'Laserdiscs'? Shudder. Doesn't anyone have anything remotely philosophical to say about the nature of addiction or about our insatiable thirst to know about all things Buffy? Is that a rhetorical question?
Did anyone here say virgins...where...where???? And if they're Canadian? Do the little virgins have cats?????
I am looking forward to getting season 1 on DVD
although I may buy a DVD that plays any format and go to AmazonUK.com and order season 1-3.

One of the great pleasures of this board is to read what other people see in the episodes and go back and rewatch them with a new perception.

Considering the state of the current TV season Buffy and Angel reruns are just delightful.

I hail from USA and I'm a dog person but cats do like me even though I am very allergic to them.
We grant you a conditional pass as long as you frequently cry the superior nature of the cat.
I'm going to have to remember all my aka's alot better than I do. I've got the flu can't help a little identity confusion.
"Yes Yes I had a feeling that I would catch ""you know what"" from that Virgin thing. It's okay...I can handle it!!

Although I am not Canadian (I'm Tennessee born and bred)...I am a Cat Lover!! Grayfield my gray sexy fat cat;) and Rambo my mouseslayer who unfortunately met his match with something much bigger not too long ago..miss him"
Cat people rule with a quiet dignity. LOL....we love our neighbours to the south. After all that's where out favourite shows come from. We will actually resume picking apart our favourite show next week I can't wait. Now to see if you have the potential to be a honourary Canadian have you heard of Blackadder or Red Dwarf?
Blackadder: a 24 episode romp through History.
I wished they had tackled WW2
You have succesfully passed the test to become a honourary Canadian...you're right I wish they did do WW2. If you have cats you can apply for God status.
I had never heard of Blackadder until your post & Brian's. I couldn't see the connection to Canadians & Red Dwarf until I realized it was probobly about cats & Red Dwarf. I had thought the demographics of the shows was primarily teen girls but it appears to be Canadian women with cats. So I'm not in the demographics of the board either. Oh well.
Well there is an evolved cat on Red Dwarf...and you haven't heard of Blackadder????...you poor soul. The fellow that does it is Rowan Atkinson who you may recogise as Mr. Bean I prefer Blackadder. The series have been shown on some PBS stations when they have a pledge thing going. But if you like cats we will love you anyway...dogs are nice too but my house is only so big and my husband says no more animals.
Actually I'm a dog person but I do get along with cat - though I have yet to figure out what they like about my leg. It's almost like they're trying to scratch their back but if that was it they would want a rougher surface.
The good news is that they like you enough to do that. They are marking their territory if they mark you...you're part of it too. Any cat that marks you is laying claim...like the astronauts planting a flag on the moon...it looks like the applications for god are going to go on forever.
Well I feel stupid....I didn't know either. I had a guess but I'm sure glad I didn't post it.

Ya know us Tennesseans...we just got shoes and socks a couple of years ago!! ;)
We got family that's moving to Tennesse so you can only be okay...and the cat thing puts you over the top...don't you feel like a Canadian already?
Well maybe I'm not out of the demographics of the board afterall since I'me living in Tennessee these days.
AHHHHH the Canadians are taking over the board!!!
Just kidding I love you all! :) Hope you don't mind my little outburst :).
Just remember we are a Super Power or at least we really love our cats.
You have to be a Super Power. You guys see so much in each episode that I just totally miss.
"I must jump into the fray. I do have a cat but I didn't watch the Blackadder (sorry!). Does watching ""Due South"" count? I have been asked on more than one occasion if I am a Canadian-they said I had the accent. Go figure. I'm from the Panhandle of the state where people can keep up with five Bingo cards simultaneously but can't properly mark a ballot.

Regarding spoilery. I think it is like eating really hot/spicy food. It is burning your mouth and you are perspiring but you can't stop.
Definitely the pleasure/pain principle here. But there is such an advantage to not knowing. When Doyle died I was totally traumatized. I called my brother-in-law practically in tears and asked him to go on-line and see what the heck was going on. Even though it was a sad event it was more satisfying to experience it fresh. If I had known in advance my horror wouldn't have been so great and hey aren't we all are in it for the element of horror(among so many other things)."
Owning a cat is pretty much all it takes to get into the Canadian Demon Cat Worshippers circle.
I get told I have an American accent. I was brought up with Brits and Danish people.
I love spoilers...as fun period. I do go and get the early reviews and synopis of both programs. It never ruins it for me. I also read the last chapter first of a book....I'm sensing a personality flaw here. Welcome to Canada superscrounger!
"Personally it's the great writing and chin-dropping plot twists (not to mention the hunky actors) that keep me tuning in every week to BtVS and A:tS.

I've also never been so obsessed with a TV show as I am with these two shows. I've seen all the shows read nearly all the books (currently working on ""Spike & Dru: Pretty Maids in a Row"" by Christopher Golden) and probably have too many of the ""toys."" I have some friends who also watch but after I was chosen Fan of the Month on another board they decided ""we're not worthy."" :D

On obsession with BtVS and A:tS: Could it be we are looking for a hero in our lives - either someone to emulate or someone to rescue us?? Could it be that these two shows are the fairy tales for the modern age? (Originally fairy tales were more like behavior or morality stories that taught lessions to people. And they weren't relegated to just children.) They give us life lessons mixed with enough fantasy that we don't realize what we are being spoon fed until we've already sucked it down!"
purplegrrl you are so right about Buffy and Angel being a modern fairy tale. You can really take the show two ways. Strictly as entertainment or you can learn from it. I'm surprised at the amount of people are as addicted to the show as I am. Part of it for me is in Buffy the small pretty girl is the one solving the problems. I enjoy watching the guys react to the fact she can send them to the moon. With the last few seasons there have been alot of things to think about on both shows. So it seems that the shows have alot of people thinking. Everyone has the right to their opinion. I have enjoyed reading everyones posts so much. That means yours too.
Oh good. We somehow drifted back on topic:)

It does seem that the shows have a peculiar hold over viewers. I agree that it is the shows' consistent elaboration of a hybrid mythology and frank appraisal of personal empowerment and accountability that sets them apart; that and the writing the quality of which just takes my breath away. Of course the attractive (cough) actors and actresses greatly enhance the viewing pleasure as well...

I have so much more to say but the board has twarted my every attempt at communication since early this afternoon. The level of frustration this has caused me just goes to prove that the thrall of the Buffyverse is very powerful indeed!
Call it a new form of fuzzy logic...we talk about the subject end up with cats(that can never be wrong)province of origin. Then we are back to...what was it again?????
Oh yeah the show....next week we seem to be getting a big troll story where Xander has to choose which woman to save from the big guy.
All I can say is no matter what he does he is screwed.
"Buffy as a life lesson hmm.

I've always loved fantasy and sci-fi. Not too many decades ago when I was an adolescent I noticed that the only girls/women in the stories and movies were put there as proof that the hero was heterosexual. They rarely added anything to the story except giving the hero and sidekick someone to rescue all the time. And it ticked me off. Look at Tolkein Terry Brooks Flash Gordon Superman Dr. Who... I could go on. Suffice it to say I love watching Buffy because the little girl in me has someone to cheer for. (and identify with. Honestly I don't look anything like Christopher Reeve.)

I'd like to add that Aquitaine scared the heck out of me with her wording of the first message in this thread. ""Did she find out something horrible?!!"" To quote Spike ""Please God No.""
I'd been checking out the spoiler sites and I think I'll take a break for a while because if something terrible is going to happen I don't want to know.
"
Isabel...I think the oh god no...is the one Spike said right after he had a dream....It was more of a....oh for crying out loud is my life gonna get complicated...

And I love that the only people screaming on Buffy tends to be the men...see Spike with the demon snot monster from outer space...Wesley...Xander...the list goes on. I was sick of the fact that in most books that the woman screamed her guts out all the time. Usually I might add to the fact her guts were being sliced out. In the past the woman was killed very violently or was the love interest some guy had to save...what a pile of crap...most of the biggest guys I know have been more bark than bite. Did I say I love the fact such a tiny girl saves the day and her strongest friends are other girls(that doesn't count Wesley he's on another show now).
I winced during that scene with Spike. What he can take on any variety of earthtype demon and he's up for the kill. Show him one alien and he shrieks like a girl?
But we just discussed that the girls on this show don't shriek much. Make that Girly-man.
Poor Aquitaine! It must have been all that Y2.1K stuff. (Y2.001K? Ah what's a decimal between friends...)

purplegrrl having wrested the board back from the demon laserdisc cat invasion I shall now evoke my right (write?) to say something of genuine philosophical significance.

Well actually I'll just try to explain my obsession with BtVS. It isn't easy because there is clearly something beyond rationality involved.

Five years ago after several shows had aired I began to feel this compulsion to watch the show. The last time I remember a similar situation was with St. Elsewhere and before that with Hill Street Blues.

There were similarities for sure. A great ensemble cast the 'continuing episodic' story structures brilliant writing an edge and a willingness to take risks artistically that almost never occur on network television. But there was one difference.

St. Elsewhere and Hill Street were reality based shows. Buffy was purely fantasy. It even had a silly title that suggested it was a kids show. I tuned in because I had seen the movie and liked the concept and was sure they couldn't pull it off as a series.

What a shock. I tuned in expecting if I was lucky some good chuckles like the movie delivered. I got Shakespeare in a vampire motif.

Hey writers! You can't do a serious show about vampires! They've been done to death there is nothing left but cliches.

But there it is. 4 1/2 seasons later better than ever there are so many moments that live in my head with the intensity like remembering Christmas Day as a child-- the smell of the tree the snow outside-- a perfect moment in time.

I have a friend who is a great lover of classical music. Unfortunately from my perspective he cuts himself off from other musical pleasures because he considers other types of music 'insuffciently demanding'. In short bless his heart but he's an elitist snob.

I take little pointed jabs at him on occasion noting that both Shakespeare and the musicians of the classical age actually wrote the popular music or theater of the day for ordinary people to experience. He doesn't care much for this concept I suppose it makes what he feels to be special less so. His loss.

Is BtVS the Shakespeare of today? Too bad I won't be around in a few hundred years to say 'I told you so'.

Sincerely with all due obsession ;)
"St. Elsewhere & Hill St Blues loved them.

But first may I say make a guy a fellow Canadian and he gets uppity.

Back to Buffy. The first season was okay but by the end of Season 2 there was no going back. I liked the fact while this girl was growing up and screwing up she was also the slayer. She was great at the slaying but she still was insecure as a person. All the characters knew what it was like to be snubbed and not popular. By the Prom I was so happy that at least the ""kids"" had figured out what the parents passivley denied Buffy was the protector. My husband even watches because he finds it funny. It's been nice to see even Mr. Giles(who at the begining was a tad effete)grow into a better man.
The show has dealt with abuse neglect and fear of the unknown(growing up) while we watched the vampire romp. It's too bad alot of people can't get past the name."
Uppity moi? And after all those Bruce Cockburn references in my posts... ;)

That scene in 'The Prom' that you mention is one of my all time favorite moments from the entire series. I've probably seen it 6 or 7 times by now and I still weep when they hand her the little umbrella.

This is an example of a daring moment if you take into the subtext of the scene the fact that this sort of thing **NEVER** happens in the traditional superhero/comic book scenario. The convention is that the hero/ine must ALWAYS labor endlessly to do good without any recognition from the public as to the burdens that go with the enormous responsibility-- the whole classic BORING OVERDONE secret identity thang.

But here if only for one shining moment she realizes the recognition and gratitude of her peers (your comment about the adults being clueless is dead on). Hope arises out of despair (the loss of Angel who as you recall announced he was moving on).

And then the great music to finish off the ep.

Ah me...
"I tend to like a heavy dose of fantasy/sci-fi/unreality with my television viewing. Which means I watch alot of Sci-Fi channel and lots of syndicated shows (Xena Andromeda etc.) About the only ""reality"" show I watch with any regularity is ""Law & Order"" - another compelling ensemble show with great writing.

I started watching BtVS because it was a show about vampires (and maybe I knew it starred the guy from the Taster's Choice commercials!). Of course as we all know the show has become much more. And even though the movie was fun I think the TV show is much better.

As far as perfect moments go I have a number of favorite scenes:
When Angelus is torturing Giles and Spike roles up and tells him ""I don't fancy spending the next month trying to get librarian out of the carpet.""
When Xander says he's tired of dating insects and getting the funny syphyllis and refuses to be everybody's butt monkey.
When Willow finds out that Oz is a werewolf and says she still would like to date him because she's ""not much fun to be around three days of the month either.""
When Angel becomes human and chides Buffy for not telling him about the taste sensation of chocolate and peanut butter.
When Spike goes to L.A. to get the magic ring from Angel and from a rooftop he does his version of the conversation between Angel and some girl Angel has helped.
And of course the prom and Buffy and Angel's dance.
The list goes on.

There are not many shows that continue to roll around in my brain long after I've seen the episodes like BtVS and A:tS do.

Keep up the great work Joss & Co.!"
You've got to remember that Shakespeare wrote for the bucks. Audiences of his day had choices like bear baiting and c--- fighting to go to rather than a play so the play better be entertaining.

Of course if Shakespeare were alive today he be writing for Spielberg or he'd be Spielberg.

Hmmm. Buffy as the TV Shakespearian Play. Works for me.
I got hooked on Buffy when I discovered just how smart and good the writing was.
Who are what are TPTB and how did they become what they are? Apparently they supremely powerful and knowing but neither omnipotent nor omniscient devoted to the cause of good. Are they a great council of great spirits? We can assume that at least some of them are not and never have been human. Some however may be human souls possibly refined by generations of re-incarnation. Is the slayer chosen from souls who have reached a certain level of development that it has the potential to be one of TPTB? Are the more promising slayers re-incarnated as slayers again so their souls can mature until they can become one of TPTB? Not the Kwisatz Haderach as someone mentioned in an earlier post but it would still be an impressive destiny for Buffy.

TPTB are a little too neutral and aloof for my taste. Frankly their presence (state?) creeps me out more than that of any demon.

Your point about reincarnation and soul-development is very interesting. I'll have to think about it some more before I comment on it.

The name TPTB implies that there is some kind of interference from on high. Are TPTB = to fate or are they something more proactive?
"I've always understood TPTB as the good counterparts to ""The One"" - the ultimate evil entity introduced in BTVS Season 3 I believe the episode in which it appeared was ""Amends.""

""The One"" was able to inflict only emotional and spiritual harm since it was not a corprael(sp?) being. Could it be that the powers that be act in much the same way except for the good?

Therefore they would not be idle watchers but simply unable to do much for the good."
"As Doyle said to Angel in City Of... ""They are more powerful than you or me"" (so more powerful than a couple of demon hybrids) ""and they just want to make things right."" This implies things are rather wrong and we know they call warriors of good (Angel Buffy) and seers (Doyle Cordelia) to help them but if they are anything like the Judeo-Christian God they are limited by human/demon free will--they cannot coerce warriors and slayers etc to do good they can only persuade them to. Plus they don't ""live in our reality"" so they must operate through channels like the Oracles or Doyle/Cordy.

"
"...but if they are anything like the Judeo-Christian God they are limited by human/demon free will--they cannot coerce warriors and slayers etc to do good they can only persuade them to.

I get the feeling that exactly what the ""Powers That Be"" are is being made-up as the show goes along. Previously they were simply some ""higher power"" which calls the Slayers and possibly brought Angel back from one of the hells. Now they have been given faces in the recently deceased Glitter Twins and the phrase ""Powers That Be"" actually seems to be their title now (the maggot-faced demon in ""To Shanshu in L.A."" calls them by that title).

I don't really know what the PTB are going to end up being. I really hope that the PTB and the demonic forces don't just end up being warring factions which use the earth as a battleground (what I refer to as ""pulling a Babylon 5""). In such a case neither side would be in the ""right"" or ""wrong."" They would simply be fighting for their own purposes and ends with little more than selfish motives.

As to the Judeo-Christian God being limited by free will I really don't know where you're getting that from. That concept is not part of classical Christianity. There has always been debate about the nature of free will in the face of divine sovereignty but very rarely do theologians take the easy way out by claiming that God is actually limited by our free will as if the Creator could be limited by His own creation."
I see the Buffyverse PTB not necessarily in the Judeo-Christian mode but definitely in something akin to the Boethian concept of God and predestination. That is there exists a supreme being that is all knowing and there exists free will which entities who live in a certain reality can choose to exercise BUT their choices are already predetermined (ie known to TPTB). It is only by a trick of the mind that entities (humans half-demons demons) actualise their free will. They must exercise this free will to move forward in the time-bound world they live in yet they are also bound to their destiny are prescribed by fate.

This system seems incredibly contradictory but in many ways explains how only FAITH can reconcile earthly free-will and other-worldly predestination.
"I have a basic problem in logic with the assumption/logic train that has led to the idea that Buffy is linked to the PTB and that her decisions are therefore good (although good is a perceptual/cultural issue in itself) and the name of my problem is Faith. If the PTB have ""gifted"" Buffy and other slayers with Slayerness and one of the gifts of slayerness is a infallible judgement in who should be slain...well I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. I wopuld like to think that Buffy is infallible but if it's a quality of being a Slayer...it just isn't so. Therefore she is fallible as Faith could be."
This internal guide I proposed would probably be a talent that would have to be dveloped just like her fighting skills are a talent that has to be developed. Furthermore she could choose to ignore it. Thus Faith may never have developed this skill and when she did hear it she may have ignored what it told her. Also this internal guide may only work for supernatural beings since that is where the Slayer's authority lies.
I don't think it was ever stated explicitly that the link would be infallible Buffy certainly isn't. But if you turn out to be right (on an historical basis) even 70% of the time you are beating the odds by chance and so you might learn to trust your instincts/feelings.

We'll never know for sure whether Joan of Arc was the messenger of God or just mentally unstable but her triumphs in battle in the face of overwhelming odds make it an engaging issue.
One question if predestination is a big thing with the PTBs why did it never occur to the Oracles that they could die?
... why did it never occur to the Oracles that they could die?

Good question. The Oracles were only 'messengers' of TPTB in human form - maybe they were always meant to be sacrificed (although the word sacrified attributes malevolent or at least ambiguous intentions to TPTB). Without predestination how do you explain the prophecies of Aberjian?
"Going the the Boethius explanation the Oracles could be ""surprised"" by meta-Providence even if they have seemingly complete information about our level of reality.



"
"the saying goes ""one girl in all the world with the power and skill to fight the vampires...blah blah"" so Buffy has the power and skill but not the knowledge or intelligence not the right to determine who needs slaying and act as judge and executioner. Only the power and skill to fight the vampires. When the powers gifted the slayers with the physical strength and quick healing abilities why didn't they gift the slayer with immortality or even a direct line to TPTB so the slayer could ask questions. Suddenly it seems the slayers are evolving out of the original design-to fight vampires-and now the slayer takes on all forms of evil."
and now the slayer TAKES ON all forms of evil.

An interesting choice of words! Buffy does take on all kinds of evil. And with no one but a currently off-form Giles and alienated friends (they don't even know they are being left out of her life yet!) how can Buffy keep from absorbing some of this evil? Who will watch out for Buffy now?
"Perhaps the correct question to ask would be""why did it never occur to the Oracles that they Would die?"" as in that day. Perhaps they were always aware that they Could die.
As for the prophecies of Aberjan they seem to speak of things that could be if certain events previous to the prophecy occur. Recall that when Lindsey was burning the scroll he remarked to Angel that Cordelia was doomed (as the scroll foretold) since only the words of Anatole could save her and he was destroying them and that Angel was in trouble also (I don't remember the exact words but it was something to that effect.) And Angel regains the scroll and tells the gasping now one handed Lindsey ""don't believe everything you read."""
Has anyone thought of the fact that TPTB and Senior Partners could in fact be one in the same and that good and evil are just pawns in some elaborate chess match? Both sides are evenly matched so it is possible that the same force is behind it all. Just something to think about :)
So what you are saying is that Angel chucked out the PTBs cause he doesn't want to play chess anymore? I kind of like that.
"I think Angel is getting tired of being played with eventually someone is going to have to make a move. I think that by locking Dru and Darla in with Holland Lindsey Lila and the rest he's basicly saying he's done playing let's move on. He wants to see who's behind the Special Projects Division. He wants the Senior Partners and the only way to get to them was over Hollands ""Dead Body"" Looks Like Angel got what he wanted."
I basically said that...in more words though. With Angel you can't piss him off forever and expect he will fall into a convenient box. W&H made a big mistake...they think one vampire is the same as the other. They think that because they have power themselves that they are immune to justice. I'm enjoying Angel alot more now that the dribble over Darla phase is over. I did say why play with the staff go over their heads(he did take that quite literally)and talk to the boss. Angel is just taking the short-cut route. Beware because short cuts can end up taking longer than expected.
Sorry Rufus (sheepishly) I just got so exicted! It's only my 2nd post here.
That's okay it means we think alike. If you are about to do a nasty you don't want the people you care for watching and that is where Angel is at right now. I just don't like his methods...he's going to slip up. You can't serve the cause of justice by breaking the laws when they don't serve you. You risk becoming the very monsters you fight.
"*** ""You can't serve the cause of justice by breaking the laws when they don't serve you."" ***

Remind anyone of a certain Harry Callahan? I seem to recall that when Angel got in the police car and saw Kate sitting across from him his first (and only) word was 'Perfect!'.

Couldn't see if he was giving her the 'Eastwood Evil Eye' though. ;)"
"Believe it or not I wasn't a fan of Dirty Harry. But I did like it when Angel got in the car and saw Kate it was the ""oh now what"" perfect look. She surprised him.
Do you think she will regret letting him go now?
I like her character cause she reminds me of Gunn opposite sides of the same coin. They have the best intentions to protect humanity but have cut themselves off from others doing it. It's ironic to me that even though she considers him trouble...if she really knew what he was up to helping his friends...she may very well help him."
Just a random thought... sometimes Kate really reminds me of Buffy. Not the Buffy who 'dated' Angel but the one who spars with Spike. I think it's the pigheadedness. How bizarre that Angel/Kate share a similar dynamic (what do you want now?) as do Buffy/Spike...

Actually I think Kate is a great foil for Angel. Too bad she isn't around more.
I agree-- along with Giles Kate is another character who needs some more screen time. I also think you're right on about the dynamic-- it is a lot like the dance between Spike and Buffy.

My reference to 'Dirty Harry' Callahan was in relation to foreshadowing. There has been quite a bit of discussion on whether Angel is turning dark or whether there is something more complex going on whether he's trying to plan the chess game with W&H farther in advance of his actual moves.

Whether one liked the DH movies or not I remember they generated huge controversy when they were first out as to the bad example the Harry Callahan character set that he was more a ruthless vigilante than a cop.

The problem of course was that his proponents said that he had to 'do what needed doing' and if it was technically beyond the bounds of the law so what-- evil was vanquished and that's the important thing.

Sounds pretty familiar to me...
"Actually Dirty Harry was not a vigilante. Some real vigilantes found this out the hard way. His comment after dealing with them ""A man has got to know his limitations."""
Due to mounting evidence I have to question the mostly accepted fact that a vampire/demon can only be evil as he/she has no soul.
Season one was so simple. Vampires/demons were evil period. Made it so easy to contemplate genocide because they were a direct threat to human existance. One question I have is if vampires/demons were meant to be wiped off the face of the earth why have only ONE slayer?
As the seasons have progressed we got Angel vampire with a soul. That was easy he was good because of the presence of his soul. Then Mr Whedon started evolving the accepted facts. There were demons who were never evil and some demons chose to be good directly going against their nature. The best example being the Prio Motu demon known to be a demon bred to maim and massacre(got that bit from this site).
We have been shown that vampires can adhere to a set of rules that include not killing humans(vamp hookers)in an effort to escape detection.
Spike is evolving as a person and I don't know where it will end for him. He is in the camp of demon hunters now (even if it is just thrill killing).
If the human race can evolve their behavior why can't the vamps have a few members that evolve past their nature to kill? Is the notion that vampires can only be evil just be another form of prejudice?
As I can't say what a soul is for sure how can I judge beings that do not have one?
If the presence of a soul was the only indicator that a being is good why does humanity commit so many evil acts?
"All good points. In addition other questions to which we don't have answers:
1. How many vampires have been cursed? (If there is 1 there can be and probably are more.)
2. How many other ways can a soul be given? (Only curses can give souls???)
3. Do in fact all people have souls no matter how big of a monster they are? (In AtS a boy was more of a monster than a demon who was himself a monster.)
4. Not only do TPTB designate 1 slayer at a time they pick a young girl. Very few adults would have the wisdom to use the extraordinary power (and presumably the corresponding authority to use it) of a slayer. Why do they invest it in a child who has not had the chance to develop physically intellectually or emotionally? The show has implied that Buffy is one of the more long-lived slayers. Yet it has said that she has not even begun to learn what she is. Why don't TPTB give a slayer a chance to learn more about what they are and what there enemies are before investing them with the duties of slayer? There appears to be no connection between TPTB and the Watchers. Did TPTB appoint some as yet undisclosed entity to guide the slayer? More likely: did TPTB endow the slayer with some extra internal voice that guides a slayer; and which among other things allows her to subconsciously sense which supernatural beings deserve to be spared (sort of a supernatural version of Spike's chip - although unlike Spike's chip it doesn't prevent her from acting just giving her information which she can ignore)? Such an internal guide would be valuable (essential?) for someone given the authority to act as policewoman judge jury and executioner. If this is true and if Buffy has developed it enough that it can be trusted and she acts accordingly then the darkness many of us see for her may not be there now and may be avoided in the future. One hint that there is such a guide and that it has considerable influence over Buffy is the episode where she tried to be a normal waitress and have nothing to do with slaying. She instead discovered and dealt with a serious supernatural threat and literally went into a hell to fight it. If this internal guide led her to problem she may not have even been running away when she left Sunnydale. If she has such an internal guide she probably is not consciously aware of it. Without such a guide she has a serious problem.

Nature ALWAYS creates aberrations from the norm. This is not restricted to people with 6 fingers etc. It also includes people who have no concept of right and wrong. In the proper environment they might possibly be able to refrain from acting as monsters but that is their true nature. Furthermore in the wrong environment normal people can be turned into monsters.

Since genetic aberrations are in all nature's beings it is to be presumed that they also apply to vampires. Some people will say ""But vampires aren't natural"". In the real world that is true but in the Buffyverse they are natural. So one must expect some aberrations that act as if they have a soul whether or not they actually have one. In addition we must expect that their environment has caused some vampires to behave properly even though they have desires to the contrary. The presence of a nearby slayer would certainly motivate such behavior - especially if they knew she would exercise discretion as to which vampires she dusted so that their appropriate behavior would be rewarded by allowing them to survive.

For good reasons we don't allow policemen to shoot anyone they find suspicious. We should expect the same from a supernatural policewoman. Historically in some extreme situations where one man was the sole legal authority available in an area he found it necessary to exercise extraordinary power. It was sometimes tolerated by others not because it was wise or desirable but because it was necessary. All to often however we re-learned the truth of the old saying ""Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"". Someone who is under constant threat of death in battles can be tempted to dispense with the entire concept of justice and stop evaluating sentient beings (We of course have only met human beings; but we have imagined others: Narns Klingons etc.) for how they behave but for what they are. At this point some beings become THEM. Then it becomes possible to say THEY have no 'humanity' then that THEY have no rights and finally that the ends justify the means. Once someone reaches the point that they are ready to act accordingly. They have lost so much 'humanity' that they themselves become in their actions a THEM though such a person probably can longer see themselves well enough to realize it.

"
"Based on what we've seen in the seires I get the impression that the function of a soul is to make you feel bad when you do something wrong and make you feel good when you do something right. It's Buffy's soul that makes her evaluate her victims' stake-worthiness. As we have seen recently she is capable of mixed motivations.

Some humans evidently have a soul that is dysfunctional in some way like the little boy in AtS.

As for Spike the chip in his head performs one of those functions giving the illusion of a Soul. It does not perform the other function however. There is no positive reinforcement when Spike does something good and it is far from clear whether or not he feels anything when he does good.

None of this answers the question of ""non-evil"" demons. Presumably they have some mechanism that functions in place of a soul at least as far as their behavior is concerned. The Host of the Karaoke bar in AtS is a case in point. What drives him to help people? He's a demon so it's not a soul. Furthermore he doesn't seem to have any ulterior motive. Maybe he derives some psychic benefit from his readings? It's fairly clear he enjoys what he does. Hmmm....

On the matter of why TPTB always choose a young girl it seems to me that youth is more adaptable. A child has the ability to grow up with her powers where adults are by and large more brittle in terms of their personalities."
"Humanitas-- I tend to agree with you that the PTB would favor youth most adults would bring too many preconceptions including the most basic one that goes ""Vampires? There aren't any such things as vampires--- ahhhhgggh!"" (biting on neck commences-- Another 15 minute career as a Slayer!)

One interesting related question might be why is the Slayer always female? We know why Joss wrote the story the way he did but if you were the PTB and you wanted maximum demon-slayage to take place wouldn't a male be significantly more agressive?

(Perhaps that is the reason they don't-- the grey areas that BtVS and A;tS are getting into regarding 'good' demons without souls and 'evil' humans with them could show cause for a less agressive more thoughtful (female) warrior).

On the matter of Spike not getting positive reinforcement when he does something good that may be changing since he is certainly smart enough to know that Buffy is likely to despise him less if he does.

There is also the fact that Buffy spared Spike (and Drusilla for that matter) in *Becoming* as part of his agreement to help her stop Angelus. Could that event several years ago have planted the seeds in his mind that Buffy wasn't a typical Slayer who most likely would have dusted both him and Dru once Angelus had been stopped. A Slayer's duty right? Who would care if you lied to a demon and broke your word?

I hate to use a Trek analogy here (since they tend to be over-used) but the ""Only Nixon could go to China"" one fits in this instance.

That's all for now still pondering the soul/good/evil/prerequite thang. Going to scroll for a while now..."
Who would care if you lied to a demon and broke your word?

Perhaps we should blame Buffy for not doing so. After all look at all the people we know Dru has killed after that (and I am sure Spike as well).

What is more important? Keeping your word or saving lives?
What is more important? Keeping your word or saving lives?

I hesitate to answer your question. And my hesitation that scares me. What happens when morality and integrity are at war with each other?
This kind of dilemma is why I personally have such a great problem with those individuals who champion a single absolute full time morality usually 'handed down from above'.

The area of the country I live in is very conservative both politically and religiously and our local papers are filled with letters to the editor that proclaim that the answer to (whatever social ill) is just a Bible verse away.

Don't these people ever run into these intractible problems in their own lives or are they just living in constant self-delusion like the good folks of our mythical Sunnydale?

I don't know how to answer the question posed either but in balancing the costs and benefits honor and integrity have to weigh in pretty heavily.

Buffy can't stop all the evil in the world. The greater need at the moment was to stop Angelus and if a deal with Spike was necessary to do so once that deal was made it would be very dishonorable for her to renege demon or no. Spike did keep his part of the bargain after all.
"So it would be ""dishonorable.""

Buffy would save lives. She should have reneged.

Again what is more important. Some misguided sense of ""honor"" or saving lives."
"Not keeping one's word word can have very long unforseen consequnces. Maybe more people will die at another time because the allies you need will not join you because they don't trust you. The recognition of the importance of the truth has been one of the more serious fatalaties in modern society. The results are serious. We have a society where lawyers are everywhere and into everything. This year a VIP in legal trouble in a trial said said ""it depemds on what your definition of 'is' is"". Private and gobernment detectives of one sort or another running background checks on people or trying to trick them into breaking some law or cheating on their partner. Is there anyone who believes a government announcement? We sometimes temporarily accept it but we know full well that at any time we may turn on the news and discover it was a big lie. Lies and failing to keep one's word are like atermite infestation in a building. You don't see the effects for a while but one day you awaken to find the structure of your life or your society is unfit for habitation. Be careful what you promise but once made it is almost always better to keep one. Notice I said 'almost'. There may be circumstances where greater harm comes from keeping the promise but unless one can see the future one will never know which action will demand the highest price."
Honor is never misguided if you belive what you are doing is the right thing.

In a world were no one can trust another giving your word is a big deal. If you can't stand by your world than you are nothing.

She could have killed Spike and Drusilla but that would have been breaking her word and proving that she was no better than the demons she fought. And Spike kept his end of the bargin by helping her and then leaving. And look at the good Spike has ended up doing by helping Buffy.

Honor is a powerful tool that should be treated with the respect it deserves.
Having been in military Sanguinary sounds like a marine corp drill instructor I too believe in honor. From the days of King Authur to today a man has always been judged by his word. I am teaching my 3 sons this life skill also.
"If I must use trickery deceit lies to defeat evil so be it.

If you must deceive someone to save a life then that is ""the most honorable thing to do"".

For example if I knew my neighbor was harboring Jews and the Nazis knocked on my do to ask me if I knew of anyone harboring Jews I would LIE.

I guess that makes me without honor. So be it.

If Buffy slayed Spike and Dru after saying not to there would only be good consequences arising from that. There would be no Dru to give Angel the trouble she is now giving him.

Remember whenever you ""let a vampire go"" you are killing humans. Spike and Dru killed people after Buffy let them go. Weren't their lives worth anything?"
Fisrt my thanks to gds Sanguinary Aquitaine Rufus and Lyn for rather nicely paraphrasing my own thoughts on this.

Anonymous your actions as described in the Nazi/Jews situatuon are not dishonorable. I think however that you are commiting a logical error by assuming that truth-telling and lying are tied inexorably to honor/dishonor.

As I stated in my original post the difficulty in this lies in that you cannot always determine the future outcome of things so taking the 'honorable course' is not always clear and at times it cannot be determined at all.

In your example you are making certain presumptions namely: 1> Nazis are evil beings 2> The Jews in hiding are good people and so must be protected from evil people 3> Your neighbor is a good person for hiding them from evil people 4> Your interests are not motivated by personal gain but a desire to do the 'right thing' under the circumstances.

In the case of the above being all true your actions would be considered honorable by most people. Let me now use an example which I believe is closer to the situation with Buffy and Spike:

Two men come to your door state that they are the police. They are looking for a serial killer and have reason to believe that your next door neighbor is hiding their prime suspect. They give a description which in fact exactly matches that of a person you saw your neighbor talking to the other afternoon a man she claims is her nephew from out of state.

You do not know these men while they *look* like police and have police ID's you have known your neighbor for years and she has always seemed like a decent kind law-abiding individual.

So do you tell the police that you have seen the man or do you lie and say you have not? And which is the honorable course of action?

If the police are right your neighbor could be in grave danger despite her claim that the person is a relative. If the police are not who they seem your neighbor and the unknown person could be in danger.

How do you choose? The outcome is unpredictable and so your 'honor' depends entirely on future 'hindsight'.





The tricky thing about honour and integrity is that its 'results' or 'rewards' are never immediately apparent. Let's say that Buffy had killed Spike and Drusilla in B2. What would the Buffyverse look like today? Would Buffy have been able to bring down the Initiative and Adam? Would Angel have eventually turned Darla back into a vamp himself? And what would Buffy have had to cling to with the end of the world averted but with Angel and her sense of honour dead?
I don't believe that Spike had that much to do with the downfall of Adam. Buffy would have defeated him any way.

As for Angel W & H would have found another way to vamp Darla again. Albeit it wouldn't have been as poetic.

But still how about all the people that Spike and Dru killed afterwards. (Just because most of it has happened off camera doesn't make them any less relevant).

If Buffy would have slayed Spike and Dru after promising not to all those people would still be alive. And isn't that Buffy's job. To protect the innocent.

"By the way.

Buffy did break her word to Spike.

She said that if she ever saw Spike back in Sunnydale she would slay him on the spot (it's really touching the concern she has for the rest of the world. You can kill anyone you want as long as it isn't in Sunnydale California.)

And while we are at ""what ifs"" what if Spike had control of that ring that made you invincible? He almost did. Then what will we be saying about Buffy living up to her promise not to slay Spike and Dru? A missed opportunity with devestating consequences.

She should have slayed Dru and Spike then. And she should slay Spike now. For the moment he gets that chip out he will ""paint the town red""."
I don't believe that Spike had that much to do with the downfall of Adam. Buffy would have defeated him any way.

If Spike hadn't shown the Scooby Gang that their greatest vulnerability lay in not banding together I don't think they could have defeated Adam. Spike's own motives were self-serving but the outcome depended on his interference. And this season Buffy's life may be in his hands. I like to think that there is a reason why given all the chances she has had to kill him Buffy hasn't killed Spike.

If Buffy (ostensibly the force of good) doesn't keep her word how can she keep chaos at bay? Like Xander said in Restless societies have rules. Likewise people have to have rules to govern their behaviour. Because she wields great power Buffy needs to abide by rules more than anyone.


If Buffy killed every vampire she encoutered because of what they might have done she would never have time to fight the big fights the ones that impact the world as a whole. Buffy called herself a firemand in Restless. I take that to mean that she fights the fights as really needed not just because. To fight the ambiguous evil would take Buffy away from her true duty.
Buffy didn't exactly have much time to devote to Spike and Dru when she was fighting Angelous to the death. If Buffy doesn't stop Acathla the world gets sucked into Hell and all humans suffer eternal torment. She made a judgement call at the time and I think it was the right decision. She didn't have a lot of options at the time she could not fight all of them alone and thanks to Spike she didn't have to.

Saving the world makes strand bedfellows.

Lynn
Ah what ifs are fun if they don't drive you crazy. If Buffy had slain Spike then who would have saved Giles Xander and Willow from the demon when they were recovering from the spell on the first slayer?
"gds raises some interesting points but I disagree with the assertion that an adult wouldn't have the wisdom to use the extraordinary power. Wisdom comes with time observation and experience and generally adults have the edge on all these since they've been around longer. TPTB invest these powers in a child because they can be molded and taught by a an authority figure who is always older and more experienced and educated in these things. I think it takes an influence other than the slayer's own judgement to use the power as intended. A young Slayer would take the guidance of an adult more readily than a newly formed adult Slayer would. They would tend to argue and reason and to not like to be told what to do by someone they would consider a peer especially later when they had developed more. Also even though the Slayer has powers her youthful energy level is a big plus. It is not a coincidence that Olympic level gymnasts are at their peak in their young years.

I'm intrigued by Buffy having a developed sense of who is kill worthy and who isn't. I have to ponder that more.

gds states that ""nature always creates aberrations from the norm."" Is this in the Buffyverse or in our world? In our world I believe monsters are made not born. In the Buffyverse I will accept otherwise.

When we become too lazy ""busy"" or uninterested to see those around us as individuals and thus lump them into convenient albeit inaccurate THEMS we are on a destructive course. It is too easy to lose sensitivity especially as gds mentions someone under the constant threat of death in battle. That is another reason Watchers are so essential. They introduce a balance to someone in the throes of battle and weighed with such responsibility that they get too focused on one part of their natures and lose their perspective.
How true is gds' final point; We are often blind when we look at ourselves ready to pull the mote from our neighbor's eye and unaware of the beam in our own."
"*** ""That is another reason Watchers are so essential. They introduce a balance to someone in the throes of battle and weighed with such responsibility that they get too focused on one part of their natures and lose their perspective."" ***

Very good point. In another thread it was mentioned how when Faith killed the Mayor's assistant Giles was looking to help her deal with this unfortunate accident while Faith was assuming that if she told the truth she would be punished and so lied and set Buffy up to take the fall. Certainly here the adult perspective was wiser than the youth perspective.

But then again there was Wesley...
"
Ah Wesley.

In dealing with humans there are few absolutes. But in general adults are wiser than youth. Also Wesley was an annoying person. This got in the way of people(the SG and the viewing audience) actually listening to him and hearing when he was right or had good ideas i.e. he was the one who reminded them that the Mayor's box o'spider snacks would have supernatural protection as well. Most of the time people just blew him off regardless of what he said. The world is full of Wesley types-annoying but not stupid. The rest of the world should give them more credit and cut them a little slack.
What about human-demon off spring. Doyle was one. Did Doyle have a soul? If humans have souls and demons don't do the off-spring instantly come with a soul or because their blood is demon they don't get a soul? I beleive that being human doesn't qualify you for a soul. Hitler Charles Manson and others-I believe-were born without souls. I believe in a human being a product of his environment up to a point but I also believe that your soul your innate gift of knowing good from evil is a gift from TPTB and not something you get just because you walk the earth in human form.
Good point from Lyn about Doyle.

If Human=Soul and Demon=No Soul than why does the soul always have to be good. A Soul is like a scale we use to weight the good and evil inside of us.

>=less than
<=greater than

Evil>Good= A Soul with less Evil should lean towards good but:
Evil
This would explain why some humans are able to commit evil acts. Because their evil impules overrule the good.

Most people would be on the good side or just about evenly blanced. A few people would be tiling slighty on the evil side while only one in a million would be complety evil or complety good.

The idea that demons might have their own brand of souls has been brought up. This could explain how cross-breeds like Doyle or like the budist-demon from Angel could be able to serve good. The good in their soul outweighted the evil alowing them to lean that way.
"Perhaps the ""soul"" resides in the ability of the mind's eye to see the mind's I. The stoics call this the apprehensive perception. Human's have this ability granted them but don't always exercise it. Pol Pot for example died not imagining that he had done anything wrong!

Meanwhile most demons live in the moment their consciousness does not rise past the moment. Those who do see it must still apprehend the choice. If they do their soul springs into being.

"
Meanwhile most demons live in the moment their consciousness does not rise past the moment. Those who do see it must still apprehend the choice. If they do their soul springs into being.

This is a very evocative idea. How would this theory apply to Angel whose soul was forced on him and to Spike whose choices and actions are informed (as far as we know) by a mechanical device? Does Spike's chip only give the illusion of a soul as someone else has pointed out or does it really give him an opportunity to live soulfully (albeit in a transitory manner)?

That's when the choice for Spike will have to truly be made. Unless Spike can decide to be good sans chip I will sit on the fence on what to do about him. But yes can the simple gesture of a good act cause a soul to being?
I'm thinking that it would make for better storytelling if we the viewers were to know the exact nature of or status of this chip in the near future. It is difficult to have an emotional investment in a character who may be artificially motivated. I want to see the real Spike whether good or evil not a facsimile. As to the chip being removed or malfunctioning you know I'm of the opinion that either the chip never existed or was removed in Out of my Mind.

BTW. There is a double entendre in the phrase 'out of my mind'. It can either refer to insanity OR to 'a figment of my imagination'. I just hope that no ploys such as 'it was all a dream/parallel universe' or 'let's go back in time and reset all the storylines' are used. I'm holding out for some heavy-duty creativity on the part of the writers in this respect.
We went over that on another board and as it's been done over and over again...who knows.
Alot of people mentioned the chip never being there and I have to say...what was the blinking light that Harmony saw when the Dr. was in Spikes brain. In FFL it was established that at least Dru had figured out Spikes true feelings for Buffy. So how do we go back?
"what was the blinking light that Harmony saw when the Dr. was in Spikes brain.

So we are basing our knowledge of the existence of Spike's chip on what a flaky and distracted Harmony saw? LOL. I don't know much about brain physiology but couldn't she have simply seen the brain stem nestled in brains? Her description is a little vague if you ask me;)

""Harmony: I can see the chip. It's nestled in there like a pretty little Easter egg with your brain all round it like that green plastic grassy stuff only this is more of a beige--""
"
Well...she got the bit about it being a sex organ. But with her new habit of smoking her sight may have been impaired....or LSD...bad blood.......one moments inspiration...I know Harmony hasn't got all her pirates onboard but I thought she might notice a pretty blinking light...LOL...can we kill her???
LOL...can we kill her???

Horrors! And after all our talk about the sanctity of human life etc. I think we need to start a new thread about whether it is moral and just to kill off uninteresting/perennially stupid characters. LOL.

This has probably been mentioned before but the parallel only just came to me... The fictional town in which Passions takes place is called Harmony. So maybe Spike is actually in the parallel world of Harmony. You know the same way Wesley is in Virginia:)

Aquitaine;
By the way I dogpiled you over on the Cross and Stake where I'm Leora.
And yes I do have certain exceptions to the rules but if Harmony moves out of the crypt that's okay too. As for Passions LOL!!!
You're sick and twisted and I've said it before it is a fine character trait.
You're sick and twisted and I've said it before it is a fine character trait

You say the nicest things:)

BTW. I never got around to telling you how purrfectly funny your comparisons between cats and vampires were. OK I'm off to think of a good title for a new thread.
There is no definate good or evil. Why is a vampire bad for hunting humans? We are only meat to them. We kill many animals to feed our populations. We may not do it ourself but its inside us the ability to. The only arguement is they have some sort of enjoyment out of the kill and for mortals its a survival mechanism.
Blessed Be
Good point Dawn. And I think you got it right. It's the fact that they take pleasure from killing but don't people also hunt for pleasure?
The Cross And Stake? You're on another message board without me? (Sob...) And I thought we were friends. (sob sniffle sob)
Yes I was a selfish cur. I'm Leora over there. So I was outed as a girl pretty quick. I don't know the addr. but you can get to it through the link...we're at the spoiler board. This is my first home. I vent my spleen the most here.
"Superscrounger-- ""The rest of the world should give them more credit and cut them a little slack.""

Good point about Wesley not always being wrong but being ignored anyway.

I can really feel for this myself since in my own line of work I'm a fairly competent individual but I don't seem to be blessed with the looks or charm or charisma or whatever the hell it is that makes most average people pay attention to you as a result of which my job gets much harder and I sometimes lose customers to other businesses who I know for a fact are feeding them a line or worse but a line by a charismatic person.

*(Sighs...)* Yet another intractable problem...

Wesley's gotten better though. Maybe I should get my own mythical universe to improve in! ;)

"
Hm. Wesley *is* much maligned. No one seems to want to hear or believe the truths he speaks (a Cassandra syndrome?). Attractive packaging above all else seems to be the way to get ahead even in the Buffyverse. Wesley tries to get his message across but he is always tentative and never chooses the right medium in which to express his views. I loved how he tried to talk to Angel over tea! Too funny.

And speaking of Charisma... I was delighted when a friend of mine said I was a lot like Cordelia - until I found out that there is a huge 'I hate Cordelia' faction out there:( Although I have a wee bit more tact than Cordy does (that isn't very difficult LOL) I don't always package my opinions in an attractive or palatable manner and I'm thinking that soon I'll have to undergo surgery to remove the foot that is a semi-permanent fixture in my mouth.

But then who said life was fair? LOL.
"Aquitaine-- Glad it was you who made the pun on 'charisma'. As soon as I wrote it I had to resist the urge for wordplay rather mightily! ;)

*** ""I was delighted when a friend of mine said I was a lot like Cordelia - until I found out that there is a huge 'I hate Cordelia' faction out there."" ***

I know the feeling considering if you've followed my posts for a while now you know I am a fan of Riley (aside from a few lapses in the vamp-hooker association dept.) But I'd wager the number of I-hate-Riley's out there greatly exceeds the number of I-hate-Cordelia's by a substantial margin.

Go figure. ;)"
There is a reason for the Hate Cordy group envy.
People feel bad around the attractive folk...and don't tell me you're tall too...damn...you just don't know what it's like to go through life requiring a footstool to navigate in a kitchen.
And life isn't fair...
I too think envy is the reason they hate Cordelia so much. She gets to say everything she thinks AND look fabulous at the same time.

Alas although I am tall I am not drop-dead gorgeous just kind of generic looking. It is a terrible cross to bear:) Next time I feel down about it though I'll remind myself that at least I don't need a footstool in the kitchen. Meow!
What I lack in height I make up for in guts....us short people are scary LOL.
"I remembered the quote from Judge Judy(another short person with guts) Beauty fades Dumb is forever.....
There was a documentary on the CBC that was called ""Blue Eyed"" about this woman in the states that has done seminars regarding racism...I really enjoyed it. She was doing a seminar when a Cute Blonde made a couple of cute remarks and what she said to the girl I'll paraphrase the best I can. She basically made this girl face the fact that beauty fades. She went on to say that you can be cute and perky for only so long...say up to 45 then you are just an old broad. I thought so true. She also went on to say that baby type names like Deby Suzy Tammy ect. were an effort to control women.
What I'm saying is that sooner or later how we look won't matter that is when you'll be really glad you've used the smarts god gave you."
And yet Wesley is attractive...is it because he's sort of an effeminate poofter? (He's just Brit) As Rufus says beauty isn't forever yet people envy Cordelia her looks but...in a way it doesn't matter what someone looks like when you get to know them...the looks are transcended.
Now you can see why as soon as he died Spike remade himself(no new chest though). Spike has an inner poofter...and I think it almost got out when the demon snot monster from outer space jumped on him. At that moment Spike found a new octave range that he didn't remember he had.
I have to go on record that I wanted Wesley on Angel as soon as I knew there was a new series. He is Funny. I like someone that has some brains dart skills optional.
I know we are supposed to be profound here cough but I just *have* to out myself as someone who has been harbouring a secret crush on Wesley for a while now. It's something about the eyes; they've mesmerised me! He's just so darn *earnest*. And you've got to respect who is willing to say he screwed up. I was thrilled when Wes showed up in LA. When he roared in on his bike all leather and fallibility... I knew A:tS would be a success;)
Unfortunately as soon as I feel sorry for a guy I'm sunk....Wesley just needs a Canadian or two in his life...we'd understand what he was saying...and understand his need to do Pantomimes (therefore the urge to wear girls clothes) with old school chums.
Speaking of Cordelia...has anyone else noticed that her chest seems to have grown this season ala Brittney Spears? I was wondering if she was just wearing more revealing outfits... Or if it was a side effect of living in LA
We are known for being the board that picks apart every aspect of the show. We need new episodes. I again invoke my magic clause when it comes to Cordys chest. There is the water bra????
Yes I've seen alot of reference to this board actually the other night on the Cross & Stake I got outed as not only Rufus but as a cat. Alot of people thought I was a guy surprise! I can't believe anyone read the jokes I made up to bug my husband(he's a bit of a brooder). If you go to Yahoo this site is recommended.
Is Buffy Cross and Stake back on-line?? I've been trying to get back on that site for some time now (at least a month maybe two) but can't get there from here. IMO Cross and Stake has some of the best fan fiction - particularly the 5- or 6-part story about the Scooby Gang 20 years from now.
I've had no problems. You can get to it from Yahoo if the addr you use is not working.
Can anyone explain to me why Angel left Dru and Darla with all the lawyers? We all know that the whole bunch of them started this whole thing in the first place but what if Darla and Dru turn them all into Vamps? Is Angel going to go back and set the house on fire?!! What if he opens the door to a Darla and Dru army? Is it really wrong to let Vamps chow down on bad humans? If a rapist kills a pedifile does anyone care? Do two wrongs make a right? Darla and Dru kill the lawyers and Angel kills Darla and Dru so all's right with the world?
Two wrongs do not make right they constitute revenge. Revenge can spiral and get out of hand.
Yes Angel is a killer. We can joke about the room being full of lawyers but I feel his choice was wrong. As I didn't see any matches in his hands when he spoke to the gang I can only assume he locked the doors and washed his hands of the situation. He has gone off his path...will he find his way back?
I believe Angel was taking a calculated risk with Darla&Dru with the Senior Partners of Wolfram&Hart and with himself. Darla&Dru may go on a killing rampage or they may turn to him to reconstitute their little post-nuclear family. Wolfram and Hart may turn him evil or they may simply have misinterpreted Angel's unwillingness to let humans be killed.

The only people he has cut out of the game are the people he cares about (Wes Gunn and Cordy). Otherwise now all bets are off and the chips are going to fall where they may. IMO Angel simply made a huge gamble.
Kudos Aquitaine for your input that Angel removed from himself only the people that he cares about.

I don't believe however that your assumption of Angel's motive was correct.

I think that Angel is about to go all unethical... (use evil/bad methods to destroy true evil) and he doesn't want to have to deal with outrage on the part of his very own three stooges.

Personally... I hope he gets his butt whooped since I'm pissed over what he did to the lawyers.
his choice was wrong... he locked the doors and washed his hands of the situation.

I agree. In fact what is most troubling to me is that he took such a passive approach. If he truly believed that the lawyers deserved to die he should have killed them himself. These half-measures are more corrupting than had he murdered them himself -- they allow him to reject responsibility for their deaths.

I don't see locking the door as active participation -- even with the door wide open Dru and Darla would have been more than capable of preventing the lawyers from leaving. To me this was simply a final act of intimidation -- to make certain that the final moments of the members of W&H special projects were as filled with terror as possible (and he does intimidation so well!)
Malandanza: I thought of the story of Pilate and considered the moment when he washed his hands of Christ. He thought what happened after was not his concern not his fault. Evil comes in many forms. The evil I saw Angel commit was one of washing his hands ignoring his choice then he crossed the line completely and locked the doors.
Works for me.

My only problem is that he left Dru and Darla.

Should have burned the house down.
Wasn't Holland's wife in the room when Angel left? She's certainly a relative innocent.
I'm withholding my judgement on Angel's choice until I see the outcome. When the show ended no one was dead... yet. Based on what I know now I'm appalled that Angel walked away from the scene. I think we are supposed to be appalled at what he did. To what end was this scenario drawn up? I don't know but I am DYING to find out.
"Me too! Personally what appalls me is Joss's cruelty in letting us hang with ""You're Fired"" ringing in our ears for the holidays! ;)"
"Joss makes me crazy!! I thought Cordelia and Wesley and Even Gun were getting closer to Angel ""Don't be embaressed we're family."" Cordy says after all. To Shanshu in LA really brought the team together. Now they're all fired!!I try to anticipate Joss's next move until I get a headache!"
"The last we saw of Holland's wife she was lying in the entry hall leaking blood onto the nice beige carpet when she invited Angel into the house - not in the bomb shelter c-- wine cellar c-- lawyer massacre.

Is she dead or alive? It's possible that Angel helped her to the hospital on his way out of the house - just because we didn't see him do it or he didn't mention doing it doesn't mean he didn't do it. Or it's possible that she was too far gone or dead by the time Angel got back upstairs. Even in the state of mind Angel was in I don't think he would have let an innocent die if he could help it - even Holland's wife. She probably didn't really know how her husband made his money other than he was a lawyer with powerful and influential clients. She had the look of a ""trophy wife"" to me.
"
"Is Angel a killer? Yes. Is Angel a murderer (at least in the case of the lawyers)? That's debatable.

I do certainly believe that Angel is an active participant in the deaths of the Special Projects Division. His inaction makes him just as culpable as any action. However was it wrong for him to let Drusilla and Darla make the lawyers into oh-so-many happy meals? I would say no. Wolfram & Hart are practically above the law. In fact they believe that they are the law. No court of land is going to believe that the firm has been raising demonic forces out of hell to kill innocent people. However the firm has murdered too many people to be allowed to continue any further. I think that if I were in Angel's position I would have done the same thing. The bit of poetic justice of the lawyers being destroyed by the very forces they tried to control for their own purposes would be too rich to pass up.

However this does not acquit Angel of leaving the premises after he let Darla and Dru have their way. He should have stayed behind and killed both of them as soon as they left the building and also staked all the dead bodies inside just in case the dynamic duo decided to make themselves some playmates.

Does this make Angel a murderer? I don't think so. He was in effect executing those in the room but only because no court would be able to do so themselves. Does this place Angel above the law? Only in specific cases. Angel has the right to kill demons and other supernatural threats which the law of the land makes no provision for. He is the appointed warrior of the Powers That Be (who apparently have more authority than any human court) and as such has the right to execute justice within his ""realm "" if you will. Normally the evildoers at Wolfram & Hart would not fall under his jurisdiction but their meddling in things supernatural and their numerous murders committed through such means I believe places them into Angel's jurisdiction.

Angel is definitely a killer but I do not think that he is a murderer. He was executing justice within his realm of authority granted to him by a higher power. There was definitely some revenge mixed into it but in the end he was giving them what they justly deserved."
Have to agree (mostly) with spotjon here. I'm personally witholding judgement until the new shows begin again to see where the writers go with this. It seems very evident that they want to suggest that Angel has gone over the edge.

I don't want to take credit for this idea since I know it was posted previously by someone else but it's a very valid thought-- why the odd timing of the vision by Cordelia just as the AI team is driving down the boulevard trying to find Dru and Darla? Was it the intent of the PTB to distract Angel from D&D until the lawyer massacre took place?

Perhaps he was never intended to stop the massacre and he perceived this fact as he was standing at the doors and just let things occur as fated.
Was it the intent of the PTB to distract Angel from D&D until the lawyer massacre took place? Perhaps he was never intended to stop the massacre ... and just let things occur as fated.

I'll skip over the idea that TPTB might condone a massacre (I'm old fashioned and like my supreme powers to be unambiguously benevolent) and I'll just tackle the fate issue. I do believe Angel is back on track with his Scroll 'destiny' after walking away from the cellar because he has been way off base for the better part of the season -what with the Darla rising and all. I am still not clear on Cordelia's visions and whether they shed light on Angel's actions. At any rate Angel no longer seems to be marching to the beat of his seer but rather to some rhythm only he can hear.
Unambiguously benevolent supreme powers aren't the old-fashioned kind to my knowledge. (cf. the book of Job) The problem of theodicy goes back to the origin of dualism. At best the organizing principle must be taken as benign in order to justify reasoning about things at all. That's the view of my idol the original Cleanthes. To theistic existentialists like Kierkegaard this is too demanding of the infinite -- only faith true by virtue of the absurd succeeds in the face of being dead forever.

That said TPTB would be less than infinite if they distract Angel less than thoroughly. In which case their benign powers wouldn't be called in question. Unless they provided the distraction to give Angel a chance to not see what providence had already provided.

Death and destruction exist willy-nilly so they have to fit into the vast eternal plan regardless of any finite entity's desires.

Oh and while on this time-passes kick Happy New Year all!



"That makes a certain amount of sense. In ""To Shanshu in LA"" Wesley does refer to some obstacles in Angel's path on the road to redemption: ""He has to survive the coming darkness the apocalyptic battles a few plagues and some - uh several - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed."" Perhaps ""the coming darkness"" is Angel's own.
"
"Assuming the destruction of the locked-in lawyers Angel's decision to lock the door and walk away is a classic illustration of the ""dirty hands problem."" Wolfram and Hart are not only outside the law--much of their behavior is not even covered by law (eg raising demons!)That puts Angel in the position of operating in a state of anarchy. His situation resembles that of the generals responsible for taking down Hitler. Most of his worst crimes were not mentioned in international law. So how far was it legitimate to go in fighting him without running a risk of becoming like him? Much depends on the strength of an individual's conscience--his/her ""soul "" if you will. This is one of the hardest ethical questions and I look forward to seeing how Joss handles it. "
"does anyone remember when Spike told Angel and Buffy ""I may be loves bitch but at least I'm man enough to admit it"". He has already admitted to Riley that he has feelings for Buffy. That's when Riley staked him with plastic. I think Riley didn't really stake him because he knew he was leaving and he trusts that if Spike loves her he'll protect her while he's gone. I'd like to see the fight with Glory come down to using spike and Buffy I hope Willow can do the spell to get his soul back and we'll find out there never really was a chip! I always thought that in ""something blue"" Spike was never under a spell at all or maybe now he remembers how it was with Buffy during the ""Willow's magic gone wacky"" and he liked the was it felt to have someone love him and he wants that back."
If his character goes in the direction that I think it may he won't need a chip or a spell. Redemption doesn't require a soul to be complete.My question is why is Riley the only one that has figured out that Spike loves Buffy?
"Why is Riley the only one that has figured out that Spike loves Buffy?

He figured it out for the very same reason that his relationship with Buffy failed. That is to say that because he was always left out of the Scooby loop (even as early as Something Blue) he was able to see how far Spike had infiltrated the group.

But there is also another reason. It is incredible the lengths people will go to NOT to see something that lies right before them particularly if it concerns someone they love. Remember Spike's line about any ninny being able to see that Willow was hanging on by a thread? Any ninny could but her dearest friends made excuses for her and prevaricated.

Dracula said to Buffy something like ""You don't want to know/see the darkness within you"". People see what they want to see which is why marginalised individuals have trouble being recognised in this world and why the threat Spike poses is forever underestimated and why his motives are generally misunderstood.

The irony that only the newly-crazy people of Sunnydale could see that Dawn wasn't 'real' is quite fitting in this respect. The whole concept of perception (both the need for it and its inherent drawbacks) is definitely a prevalent theme this season. Up to this point I think we have only seen the tip of the Buffy-perception iceberg (insert Jaws music here;) "
"I have wondered if Riley ever forgot that Buffy told him that she was madly in love with and going to marry some guy named Spike in ""Something Blue."" We know she was under Willow's spell but did she ever mention that to Riley? She told him it was a joke at the end of the episode but do you ever wonder how the seeds of jealousy or insecurity get planted?

Once he found out that she actually knew someone named Spike did the Psych major in him ask 'Why did she pick that guy as the arbitrary name she pulled out of her subconscious as the fiance in her joke?' Perhaps he watched Spike a bit closer because of that not to mention that Spike was also ""Hostile 17"" who seemed to hang out with his girlfriend alot and she hadn't killed him.

Maybe he spotted the signs of Spike's love because his insecurity was looking for them. "
"I have wondered if Riley ever forgot that Buffy told him that she was madly in love with and going to marry some guy named Spike in ""Something Blue."" "
"I have wondered if Riley ever forgot that Buffy told him that she was madly in love with and going to marry some guy named Spike in Something Blue."" ""

Mmmm. I've wondered the same thing about Spike's thoughts about FaithasBuffy coming on to him. Seems like a lot of loose ends need to be tied up here:)

And speaking of perception again I watched parts of FFL today and I was surprised that I missed Spike/William's adamant ""I want you to SEE me"" (to Cecily) the first time around. Also the fact that Dru is able to seduce William because she says: ""I've seen you. A man surrounded by fools who cannot see his strength.
His vision. His glory. ... I see what you want.""

Spike still possesses qualities that those around him cannot see. And why is the word/name glory associated with him twice in FFL (""...there's death there's glory there's sod all else)? "
You bet Riley remembered Buffys comment about Spike. As for Faith in Buffy I think that Spike would have assumed that she was drunk and was out to torment him.
This story line will become more than comic relief. First the writers had to make us accept that Spike would have a reason to hang around. So hey!!neuter the guy!!! is it just me but LOL!!!. Then to make the character more sympathetic and make us believe his continued presense (in Buffys bedroom for instance) we got to see that in life he was....impotent...had no control over his direction. That is how Dru seduced him into darkness. The promise of being recognised for the greatness in himself was too much to pass up.
If Spike were still chasing Buffy around with murderous intent he would really look like a big ponce.
I first noticed that in trying to adapt to being neutered that Spike was still trying to be the big bad but common mugging? He got money for information. So his motives were selfish. FFL changed that. Spike changed evolved past his nature to kill to discover he could still feel compassion. If you will notice as of late when Spike has helped out the SG he hasn't submitted a bill. I think he is going to figure big time in Buffys life soon.
"That brings up the issue of how reality is affected by our perceptions of it. Certainly in relationships the participants' perceptions of each other affect the connection between them.

More than that though perception can affect the world at large especially in the Buffyverse. After all what is Dawn but a construct of people's perceptions? She certainly seems to have a ""self"" (possibly the product of the Key?) but all her history is mere perception. Perhaps this is ture of everyone and is only more apparent with Dawn because we know she is a construct."
I think Buffy's feeling for Spike changed directions when we weren't looking. When she threw the money at him in the alley and told him he was beneath her then he winds up on her porch patting her back while she cries about her mom. We never saw that whole deal did Buffy invite him in for hot cocoa and pour out her fears about being left alone if her mother dies or did she cry herself sick and Spike took her up and tucked her in bed?
We never saw that whole deal did Buffy invite him in for hot cocoa and pour out her fears about being left alone if her mother dies or did she cry herself sick and Spike took her up and tucked her in bed?

LOL. I vote for the latter. He seemed pretty comfortable there in Into the Woods after all.

You're right! We never SAW anything. We know Spike patted Buffy's back and we know at some point Buffy told him about her mother since he rubbed it in Riley's face in next day. God (and Joss:) only knows how we got from Mr Pointy A to Mr Pointy B. The plot thickens...
"The process of Spikes change has been one we have to speculate on. What did happen after FFL? How did Spike know where Buffy and the bite sized one had gone. Why tell Spike and ""forget"" Riley? Will Spike submit a bill to Buffy at some point one she didn't know he tabulated?"
"First off don't get me wrong I love Spike. And I'm thoroughly enjoying the ""Will they or won't they?"" question.

But we never do see what happens after he comforts Buffy on the porch. It could have happened that he tucked her into bed (or something) and she cried out all of her problems on his shoulder. (sigh);-)

What could also have happened was Buffy didn't say a word about her mother. They could have sat quietly in the moonlight sharing that connection (that scene shrieked connection) until Buffy excused herself and went in to bed.

Remember Spike used a blanket to protect himself from the sun to get in the house the next day. We've seen Spike outside of Buffy's house stalker-style on more than one occassion. Just because we haven't seen him in the daytime doesn't mean he couldn't be there under that blanket. (Either being concerned for Buffy or too disgusted with Harmony to spend another day with her in the crypt.) And there are serious bushes back there.
He could have seen Buffy and Dawn load Joyce into the car with the overnight case. Someone could have made some reference to hospital tests.
Spike could have figured it out from those clues easily.

Don't forget he also told Riley that Buffy was out buying him drinks the night before. Spike never mentioned that he MADE Buffy pay for the drinks or that she was picking his brains the whole evening. Deception is placing the plausible lies beside the odd truths.

I know it looks like I'm thinking way too much about this but this is what popped into my head the first time I saw 'Shadow'. (Dear God he's stalking her in the daytime now!) We may never know because Riley never called her on it. He never said Spike told him anything and I've not seen any indication that she's told Giles or anyone else one thing that Spike told her. Or even that she spent that night talking to Spike.

"
If Spike is simply up to his ol' tricks of using people's insecurities against them it is quite possible we are being played like violins (and gullible violins at that:) by Joss&Co. As viewers we see a blank or an apparent hole in the story and our imaginations (in this case weary of the presence of Riley in Buffy's life) immediately fill in missing information to suit our expectations regarding storyline progression and romance.

We see that Riley is on his way out so we happily paste Spike into the family album. Why does something that seemed impossible 6 months ago Spike as Buffy's love interest make perfect sense to us (well to me at least) today? LOL. Yes Spike has changed. What he has become I wouldn't venture to guess while he is still in stalker mode.
Who else has been around Spike this season to even notice his feelings? His scenes this season have been almost exclusively with Buffy and Riley. I'm sure when the Scooby Gang sees Buffy and Spike interacting together it will only be a matter of time before one of them notices. Unless Dru comes to Sunnydale and informs everybody all at once(including Buffy). Then watch the sparks fly...
I would love to see Dru and Darla show up in Sunnydale looking for Spike. With their reason for comming of course to kill the slayer.
I too would like to see the old family dynamics at play. Except while I do want to see Spike Dru Darla and Angel interact I think it would be detrimental to both A:tS and BtVS if there were to be too much crossover plotting. It would/will be nice to see what the three other vamps make of the changes in Spike. At the moment the setup is perfect for such a scenario:) Yea! The new year looks promising.
"Was anyone but me shocked at this turn of events? I knew there were rumors of Riley leaving but like this?? Why didn't Buffy pick up a rock and hit the helicopter?!! Will Buffy turn to spike now or will she blame him for Riley's leaving after he took her to find Riley at the suck fest? And what about Xander being in love with Anya? Can we have Anya killed off now so Xander will become a watcher / demon hunter and take revenge for Anya's death? I never realy liked Riley I always hoped he'd become ""darker"" and when he started digging the vamp chicks I thought he was on his way but now I really miss him!"
With her slayer strength if Buffy threw a stone at the helicopter I fear it would crash and burn. The relationship of Riley and Buffy may not be over. He could come back to resolve what had happened to them. Some relationships have exploded and the people split never to see each other again...but I think no way...work it out even if it's months later. Who knows what Riley would be like after this latest mission...if he survives.
"Do you really think Riley would come back after thinking she let him walk out without so much as a ""please stay"". There's no way to get in touch with him even if she needed his help(army help) desperately to fight a tribe of demons. He already said ""I'll come running"" and walked out the door. How many times can a man slink back like apet dog I think his flying off w