February 2002 posts

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A Quick Question for Waiting in the Wings -- Wolfhowl3, 05:09:12 02/09/02 Sat

Angel said that he first saw that ballet in 1890, and that it moved him to tears, even though he was evil at the time.

Now please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Angel resouled, prior to 1880? We know he had a soul when Spike snuffed his first Slayer during the Boxxer Rebelioun.

Thanks

Wolfie
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[> Re: A Quick Question for Waiting in the Wings -- matching mole, 05:59:18 02/09/02 Sat
I believe (going on memory which may not be completely reliable) that the Boxer Rebellion was about 1900 and Angel had been resouled very shortly before that.
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[> [> Re: A Quick Question for Waiting in the Wings -- LadyStarlight, 06:29:35 02/09/02 Sat
You get a cookie, mm! According to a Yahoo search, the Boxer Rebellion took place in 1900, and was over probably before 1901.

And I think that Angel was souled in 1898 or thereabouts. Wasn't there a bit of dialogue between Darla and Angel, where she says something about him having been gone for a couple of years?
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[> In B1 Angel was re-souled in 1898 -- Sophist, 08:47:45 02/09/02 Sat
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[> Souls & Ballet -- La Duquessa, 10:32:52 02/09/02 Sat
I noticed that dates too, and that got me wondering...what was Joss trying to say with that? That some things transcend evil? I would think that since art is rooted in human expression and emotion that a purely evil creature would have no appreciation for it. Art is used as a way to connect with the heart with the gut, to bring out a universal human truth and feeling...all things unimportant to a vampire.

I vaguely remember Angel mentioning, sometime in Season 1 of Angel, that he had met Baudelaire--now there's poetry I can see a vampire enjoying, if not quite understanding. But ballet?

I'm not expressing my thoughts well, this am ( not enough coffee)...but Angel's comment really struck me and I've been trying to decide since then if it was just a toss-off (Joss--toss off? Naw!) or if there is a deeper meaning that we should be considering--I am remembering the scene in Frankenstein where the monster approaches the little girl with the flowers--as he reaches for her, he is trying to reach for his own humanity that he has lost, or maybe never even had...I doubt that Angel was much into ballet when he was Liam...(Well, I don't think they had ballet as we know it in the 18th century, but I'm sure there was some equivilent--opera, I suppose.)

All this also made me wonder--does Spike still write poetry??? Could Spike still write poetry? Or does poetry require a soul? (Like we once thought love did?)

Sorry this post isn't up to the stupendous level of everyone else's but I thought I'd throw the idea out there and see if someone with a bigger brain than moi might have a comment or two...
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[> [> Re: Souls & Ballet -- MrDave, 21:18:12 02/09/02 Sat
I think that the 'Bohemian Ideals' of Beauty, Truth and above all Love transcend the soul. ME has repeatedly treated the soul as something of a concience. But concience (or lack, thereof) does not heighten or dampen our appreciation of Art (in any form). Without a soul we might not feel bad that VanGogh was in a nuthouse, or that Michaelangelo ruined he health painting the Sistine Chapel, but we appreciate the craft.

Spike (our Bohemian in residence) loves passionately and HE has no soul. He appreciates beautiful things (witness his decorating attempts...primitive, but tasteful). He probably does still write poetry. But like William he likely hides is away. Fearing that others will use it to humiliate him. Spike can take a beating like ..er...a man. But he can only really be hurt by humiliation.
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[> [> Spike does have a soul -- a demon's soul. Same was true of Angelus. -- bookworm, 11:46:32 02/10/02 Sun
Way back in the first season, Giles explained that a demon's soul took up residence in the body of the human that had been vamped. No reason that demon soul couldn't be a fan of ballet or poetry.
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My disturbing thought of the early morning.....Spoilers for Dead Things -- Rufus, 05:09:10 02/09/02 Sat

Something had been bugging me about Dead Things, not Buffy and Spike having sex under a rug, or with handcuffs, or at the Bronze. I also didn't think much more about Willow and her addiction. What bugs me the most is how Katrina died.

It was bad enough that the poor girl was forced to be a sex slave on her knee's for the creepy one, but I was wondering how they found the body. What made me think of that was Jonathon masquerading as Katrina.....she/well he had on a jacket and slacks...but Katrina died in that Maid costume. So, what was the body clothed in when found. The disturbing part of that for me is that she may have been treated like a dressup doll for by the Troika. That would have been a very hard thing to do, change clothing of the person you have just killed. It would also add a level of evil to the guy that was able to keep his lunch down changing Katrina from the "maid costume" to the clothes she was in when Warren first saw her. Also leave the "costume on" and how do you explain a suicide of a woman wearing such an obvious getup....assuming the cops found and talked the the patrons in the bar she was last seen in.
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[> Re: My disturbing thought of the early morning.....Spoilers for Dead Things -- myra, 07:23:17 02/09/02 Sat
I think Warren would be perfectly capable of doing such a thing (changing Katrina's clothes after he killed her), we *are* talking about the guy that suggested summoning a demon to 'devour' the body. He also doesn't seem to be bothered by the whole I-attempted-to-rape-and-killed-a-girl thing, the main thing he worries about is getting caught.
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[> [> Re: My disturbing thought of the early morning.....Spoilers for Dead Things -- DEN, 08:19:02 02/09/02 Sat
It's surprising what people can do on automatic pilot in high-stress situations.
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[> [> [> He also didn't seem disturbed to see Jonathan walk around as Katrina. Didn't bother him at all. -- Rob, 08:51:47 02/09/02 Sat
Which means...

He's evil!

Rob
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[> [> [> [> Warren's not evil.... -- Malandanza, 17:54:11 02/09/02 Sat
...he's just misunderstood. And, anyway, the whole thing was Katrina's fault.

Consider that Katrina's primary complaint against Warren was the sexbot. Yet Warren had discarded the sexbot voluntarily after he met Katrina. She's blaming him for something he did before they were committed (not that there's anything wrong with having sex with an inanimate object -- but then, it's just like Katrina to be so judgmental). Warren tried to keep Katrina away from the 'bot after it went on a rampage to protect her (he didn't have to worry about April attacking him) but she wouldn't listen and allowed her jealousy to run away with her, even imagining a relationship between Buffy and Warren. So how does she go from admiring the bright young man she met in her engineering classes (even coming home with him to meet his mother) to ridiculing him for his fashion sense and mocking him for hoping they could repair the relationship? I feel certain that I wasn't the only one with tears in his eyes when Katrina abused him in public. Sure, she can do as she pleases, but to behave as arbitrarily and hurtfully as she has is definitely an abuse of free will. It was poetic justice to have it taken from her.

And then the scene in the lair -- when she saw what pains Warren had taken to get her back, inventing whole new branches of science just to win her approval (no matter how much she doesn't deserve him) why didn't she realize that this is the man for her? He has the hopeless devotion of a beaten and abused dog, still loyal, yearning only for some indication of affection. No -- this heartless vixen physically assaults Warren and his friends and threatens to bring the full force of the law down upon them. What resulted was a terrible accident -- but an accident set into motion by Katrina.

That's not to say that Warren doesn't have his faults. I mean, he's tried to kill her and her friends, he's tasered her and chained her up, threatening to kill her if she doesn't admit that she loves him, he's tried to break her apart from her friends, to keep her only for himself, he's degraded her and made her believe that she's worthless, he sacrificed a platonic friendship for lust and preyed upon her when she was emotionally distraught... oh, wait -- I'm confusing him with Spike again.

Nevermind.
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[> [> [> [> [> *snickering* -- VampRiley, 18:12:32 02/09/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Warren's not evil....oh really..... -- Rufus, 19:52:07 02/09/02 Sat
Say what you like about Spike but get one thing straight, when it comes to Katrina and Buffy there is no comparison. Katrina had no power or choices and Buffy has both. Katrina was zapped then murdered when she tried to defend herself. Buffy has had sex with a fellow of her own choosing that she keeps going back to see time and time again. Katrina's situation is closer to real life in that frequently a woman is beaten down when she tries to speak up for herself or leave a bad situation. You could see what happened when Buffy wanted her way...she beat the hell out of Spike. Spike may be evil, but he has no soul, no moral compass...what happened to Warren?
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[> [> [> [> [> LOL. Ah, dry Arizona humor. -- mm, 19:54:03 02/09/02 Sat
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[> [> [> [> [> You've been reading the "Get People To Respond To Your Posts" advice, haven't you? -- Traveler, 20:20:17 02/09/02 Sat
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[> Re: My disturbing thought of the early morning.....Spoilers for Dead Things -- LeeAnn, 08:54:20 02/09/02 Sat
My disturbing thought was how Katrina got in the maid's uniform in the first place. She seemed so out of it. Was Warren able to tell her to put the uniform on and watch while she removed her clothes and put on the fishnet stockings etc. Or did he undress and then dress her himself and probably rape her at the half way point.
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Turnng points and S4 -- DEN, 09:23:18 02/09/02 Sat

On watching the first two eps of s4 on FX, I was struck by what seems a major "road not taken" by the series--the decision not to develop the college-experience story. Let's consider the possible threads had s4 been taken as a "year of change"

1. Buffy's search for an identity could be introduced/developed long-term in the college contex. SMG does that kind of angst as well as anyone. Let her twist in the freshman wind for a few more eps!

2. Willow could emerge from high school nerd into college star--a very logical probability. She could even become a guy magnet: IMHO, her brains, looks, and offbeat personality would make her catnip at any university. That gives flexibility to the Oz storyline. It offers real opportunities to develop the relationship with Tara along lines more sophisticated than "gay now." It also challenges the Buffy/Willow "sidekick dynamic" without depending so heavily on the magic/power issue.

3. There's room to do more with core characters set adrift by the actual s4. Explore Xander's getting a life and Giles's new situation--a Giles/Olivia/ Joyce thread, and the scoobies' reaction, offers fascinating possibilities

4. Tara and Anya have some space to become more than their respective mannerisms, more than stammering and malapropisms. Tara can even have a back story with real suspense!

5. the "scooby rift" can be developed instead of postulated, perhaps left open as a teaser for s5.

6. A year along these lines gives the gang a physical, structural context: the university, as an alternative to the growing physical isolation of the later seasons.

That does not mean the long-term story line needed to be abandoned--just pushed back by unraveling the "Initiative" stories from the "college life" ones, and increasing the latters' number. Introduce the "evil government" arc towards the end of s4 by teasing us with "men in black, then develop it in 5. S 6 is the "sacrifice arc;" s 7 becomes "grow up; and the series could be wrapped up on a high note.

Would such a season have been boring or deriviative? The cast during s4 was worked-in, and at the peak of its form for "scoobage," the fast-paced, witty interaction about everyday events that gives the show much of its appeal. College provides an ample source of scenarios for the "monster as metaphor" story lines that are the series' core--many of us can think of a dozen without trying! If a "big bad" is needed (i'm not at all sure one is), ME's creative energies surely were up to the challenge. By s4, moreover, it is clear that the series' core audience draws heavily from the college-educated and college-bound, who may be presumed to appreciate that setting.

A reconceptualized s4 might also have averted or delayed the growing emphasis on season arcs, which in turn detracts from non-arc eps. Except for a few stand-alone classics like "Hush" and "The Body," these become "fillers" and the season splits into halves.

I'm essentially suggestng ME lost confidence in its ability to take the show beyond high schol. In consequence it threw two story lines, college and the Initiative, into a single season. Not only were both left hanging, but the show ever since has been put under unnecessary stress.

Here ends the two cents' worth of a frustrated producer on a long Saturday. Thanks for your patience.
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[> I agree -- matching mole, a nerd and proud of it, 12:30:15 02/09/02 Sat
That was a disappointing aspect of season 4 to me - that the college aspect wasn't played up more. Both 'The Freshman' and 'Living Conditions' were excellent episodes in my opinion (Living Conditions is an all time fave). They really encapsulated the atmosphere of college life just as many S1, S2 episodes did for high school. It does seem like there was great potential for a college arc and a bunch of stand-alone episodes that was never realy exploited.

Very few shows have college settings, presumably because the college experience is less general than high school (also maybe the college educated watch less television?). I've always thought this left a great potential source of interesting stories untapped. But perhaps one of the reasons the 'Oh grow up' theme hasn't resonated all that well with me is that my experience with university was so different from the Scoobies. For the first time since the start of my teens (or even earlier) I met people who I could really relate to (and I basically stopped associating with my high school acquaintances almost immediately). My courses (especially after first year) fascinated me. The whole thing was a blessed release after high school. Growing up seemed pretty damn easy to me (or perhaps I've never grown up at all). I guess this just shows a lack of imagination on my part (and that I am a hopeless nerd).
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[> I disagree... -- Rob, 18:41:02 02/09/02 Sat
I found S4 to be practically perfect in every way. I thought the plotting was perfect, as was the extent to which they did and did not explore college life.

I have the cool situation of being the exact age as the Scoobs. I entered college, therefore, the same year they did. It may just be because I had a very difficult first year of college, but I was glad that the whole year didn't focus on the college life. I wanted some escapism from college, dammit!

With that said, the first episodes of the season, the most college-focused, were tailor made for me. "Living Conditions" is for me, as well as mm, a favorite episode. It really struck a chord with me, because as Buffy was dealing with her roommate from hell, I was dealing with one at the same time. I totally identified. My roommate didn't play Celine Dion non-stop, but something almost as horrifying...Blink-182. Aaarggh! My ears!

I'm also, by the way, glad that the Initiative and college stories were the same year. College is a time when people question values and begin to see the graying of the world, in terms other than black and white. The Initiative's experimentation on demons was a perfect counterpoint to the changes the Scoobies were experiencing. For the first time, Buffy realized that all demons may not be all evil; or there at least may be ways that are too cruel to deal with even inherently evil creatures. I thought the fifth season, also, was the best plotted season of the show's run to date, so I'm also glad that the Initiative story line was done by then. I am not one of those who didn't like the Initiative story. I personally loved it. But I wouldn't do a thing to change any of the fifth season, so I'm glad it was wrapped up by that time.

Rob
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[> [> Re: I disagree... -- JM, 19:06:40 02/09/02 Sat
At least one other joins me in the light, or in everyone else's opinion joins me in the dark. I too love season four. I never really got the generalized hate for it. And wasn't even aware since I didn't get on-line until last season. When I re-watched it on FX I was blown away. They did some really interesting things that season, that were unique and totally unexpected.
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[> [> [> Re: I disagree... -- grifter, 00:58:04 02/10/02 Sun
I, too, loved season 4. Never got why it was bashed by most fans so much. I´m about the same age as the SG, and started university that year (it´s quite different here in Austria, but it´s still the same basics as in the US).
I had to take a break from studying to do my civil services, and man was I glad! I was getting extremly bored with university, and it was a welcome break (that I´m still enjoying till June).
So, all in all, it was ok for me that they didn´t delve deeper into the college-thing, because, again, it mirrored my own life. ;)
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[> [> [> [> Re: some old farts liked it too -- Anne, 05:03:15 02/10/02 Sun
I thought I'd chime in here because I'm older than most of the people on this board, so I thought you might be interested to know that you don't have to have been college age during season 4 to love it.

The shows were generally lighter and less serious than in the other seasons; but many of them were also, to me, howlingly funny. As somebody who loves to laugh and doesn't get to do so as much I'd like, that's just fine. And it included "A New Man", the only really generous, delicious slice of Giles/Spike interaction they've served out so far.
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[> [> [> [> [> Season Four Fans of the World Unite!!! -- Rob, 08:06:05 02/10/02 Sun
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[> College, Knowledge, and Season 4 (I disagree) -- manwitch, 12:24:13 02/10/02 Sun
I didn't think Season 4 was attempting to be an exploration of College life, so abandoning that road doesn't bother me.

I read too much Foucault, so I thought Season 4 was about Knowledge, what it is, where it comes from, what legitimates it, how its used. So it seems appropriate that the Initiative and College would be linked. Just as there was an emotional hell underlying the High School, so was there a perversion underlying the College. Knowledge acquired and used for inhuman purposes. Categories and classifications used merely to categorize and classify. Knowledge for the sake of Knowledge. Such knowledge is a dead end. It is not a productive contribution to human life. College, as an institution of impartial learning necessarily contains this perversion as a seed within it. It cannot of itself prevent this abuse. It takes a human being to use knowledge towards human ends. Knowledge for its own sake is a-moral, as likely to be used for greed, profit or power as it is to be used for kindness, creativity and compassion. Or it may be used simply because its interesting, without regard to the human consequences. It is interesting to me that both the college and the Initiative were State-sponsored institutions, i.e. part of a system, an inhuman or non-human system, one whose main interest is to perpetuate its own authority.

The kind of knowledge that the scoobies used in Primeval to overcome Adam was not the kind of knowledge that College or the Initiative could ever either acquire or disseminate. And Buffy's final words to Adam indicate just that.

"You can never hope to know the source of our power. Your's is right here."

The end of season 4, and its message ("Behind the divisive categories and classifications of our empirical and scientific knowledge, there is an underlying truth of the power in our unity beyond all") seems to move quite gracefully into Season 5, where that is in fact the ultimate truth that Buffy must grasp at the most visceral level possible. When Buffy realizes that she is in a realm of knowledge that Higher Education cannot grasp or even address (Dawn is not my sister, yet she is), she appropriately leaves behind this flawed and incomplete institution. When she realizes that she and Dawn are one and the same, she appropriately leaves behind the world of forms altogether.

No institution, not one, has fared well against Buffy. She has, almost without exception, never accepted an institution as the authoritative source of knowledge about herself or her humanity. Not high school, not the Watcher's Council, not the City Government, not the Police, not College, not the Initiative, not the Hospital. The only source of knowledge that Buffy really accepts as authoritative is the knowledge that comes from the experience of love and human interaction.

What does College as it has so far been depicted have to offer Buffy that she should stay there and explore it? So far, the only answers seem to be of the mundane sort. "Well, she could get a better job." "People gotta go to college." Etc. Her knowledge of herself and her humanity is beyond what College or the College Experience can give her. So why stick her there?

Note: I'm talking about my view of the TV show Buffy, not about the worth of College. I had such a great time in college, I was there for like 10 years.

That was a little joke.
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[> [> *Season 4 and 5 spoilers above*. Sorry. -- manwitch, 12:30:14 02/10/02 Sun
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[> [> Faust or Foucault? -- Sophist, 12:46:08 02/10/02 Sun
Some great points here. Don't you think that the Initiative was more Faustian in it's use of knowledge than Foucaltian? I always saw Faust's rejection of Gretchen (love) as the key to his Fall.
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[> [> [> Re: Faust or Foucault? -- manwitch, 05:21:20 02/11/02 Mon
Please explain more. In reading too much Foucault, I have left out some other greats. My knowledge of Faust is something like, "That's Goethe, right?" or "Did he sell his soul to the devil?" or "That's an opera, isn't it? But by whom?" So, I can't help but see it as more like Foucault.

If you will overlook my ignorance, I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
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[> [> [> [> Faust -- Sophist, 09:52:16 02/11/02 Mon
Ok, this is a challenge -- compress a book length epic to a few sentences. Here goes.

Faust is a learned man, much like you might envision a scholastic from the middle ages. He has an insatiable thirst for knowledge and can never learn enough. The devil comes to him and offers him knowledge in return for his soul, a bargain Faust accepts. There are several versions of what happens after. In Goethe, Faust is able to escape the consequences of his bargain only if he reaches a point at which someone/something captures him so completely that he utters the words "Verweile doch, du bist so schon" (Tarry awhile, thou art so beautiful; sounds better in German). In some versions, Faust does utter these words about Gretchen, the woman he loved, because he realizes that knowledge alone is incomplete without love. In others, he fails to realize it until it is too late.

Hope that makes my point clear. If not, well, I'm just being too obscure, not for the first time. If you ever decide you just have to learn German, learn enough to read Faust; it's worth it.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I envy you -- Anne, 17:01:05 02/11/02 Mon
You must have more than a little German if you know enough to read Faust -- I know; I've tried. I got through the Prologue back in the days when my German was a little less rusty. I thought it was hysterically funny in a way that doesn't translate at all well into English and really wanted to be able to go on. But when I got into the body of the thing even a dictionary couldn't save me.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I got better marks for persistence than talent. :) -- Sophist, 21:13:18 02/11/02 Mon
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[> [> Re: College, Knowledge, and Season 4 (Fresh perspetive) -- DEN, 15:36:52 02/10/02 Sun
I really appreciate your analysis of the close linking of the College and Initiative themes. I did not propose to criticize the general pattern of the show. Indeed I liked S4 and the Initiative. I questioned, however, whether extending the S4 dual arc over two seasons might not have been preferable, in the sense of developing some promising lines actually left open or unexplored. I still think so--but thanks to you and other posters, I'm not nearly so sure.
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[> Re: Turnng points and S4 -- fresne, 13:11:39 02/10/02 Sun
Mainly, I just wanted more UC Santa Cruz in jokes. MN is an alumni and I went to Porter (the college that kept throwing parties).

Then again we're talking a school where you shop for classes, get narrative evaluations not grades, the campus is a few buildings in a huge redwood forest, and there are strange people who live out there and shower in the science buildings, it might not resonate with everyone's experience.

However, a take back the night, damn demon potluck, parade, through the nice creepy woods might have made a nice light episode. And hey, Lost Boy's jokes also possible.

Though, other than too much Parker, didn't really have a problem with S4.
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OT: Our own personal Hellmouth in BC :o( -- Wisewoman, 10:16:11 02/09/02 Sat

Don't know if any of you in the US are getting reports on this, but all hell has broken loose in Port Coquitlam, a suburb just east of Vancouver.

For the last twenty years female sex trade workers have been going missing from the Downtown Eastside skid row area of Vancouver. Their friends and family have had little help from the police in finding their whereabouts. The police attitude seemed to be, "Hookers come and go [pun intended]. There's no body, ergo no crime to investigate."

Just recently John Walsh brought the situation to light on "America's Most Wanted." Then Gary Leon Ridgway was arrested in connection with the Green River killings and Vancouver police thought maybe he was their man, but indications are that that isn't the case, although he was known to cross the border into BC from Washington state.

By January of this year the list of missing women in Vancouver had grown to 50. Just a couple of days ago, police got a warrant to search a house on a pig farm in Port Coquitlam, on a firearms violation. Apparently while in the home they found i.d. and other items related to at least two of the missing women. This led to a larger search warrant for the entire 10 acre farm, which has basically been used as a land fill dump for years. It's owned by two brothers in their 50's, described as "greasy biker types" who nevertheless have a considerable fortune in land and other holdings. They previously drew the attention of authorities when they held parties at a hall called "Piggy's Party Palace," located close by the farm. Word is that one of them would cruise around the downtown Eastside and round up sex trade workers to attend the "parties" with the promise of free booze and drugs. In fact, the older brother was charged with unlawful confinement and attempted murder in 1997 in the case of a women who was handcuffed at the farm and stabbed repeatedly. She escaped and almost bled to death at the side of the road before being picked up and taken to hospital. Inexplicably, all charges against the man were dropped in 1998.

Now it's a waiting game...the property has been fenced off to press and family members of the missing, and the police are giving brief press conferences twice a day. Meanwhile they're moving in heavy excavation equipment, trailers for command posts, and porta-potties, so it looks like being a long search.

Really made me realize the difference between discussing Katrina's murder in the light of philosophy, and real life. In fact, it made me nauseous...
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[> Dude? That's gotta suck. Big time. -- VampRiley, 18:06:31 02/09/02 Sat
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[> If you want to see what Sunnydale would be like stripped of its metaphors... -- A8, 23:36:21 02/09/02 Sat
...I would recommend you rent "Bully." It's a very sobering look at real monsters and the people who sire them.
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[> Re: OT: Our own personal Hellmouth in BC :o( -- matching mole, 11:52:25 02/10/02 Sun
Terrible and tragic. I know how you must be feeling. I grew up in St. Catharines, location of the Paul Bernardo murders (for non-Canadians this was one of the most notorious sex/murder cases in Canadian history). Although the crimes took place years after I had moved away it was like a punch it the gut to realize that such horrific events had occurred in a place I was so familiar with.
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[> [> Re: OT: That's it exactly, mole -- WW, 13:44:42 02/10/02 Sun
And as the media has been quick to point out, that particular area of BC has already spawned one serial killer, Clifford Robert Olson, who preyed on young boys.

St. Catherines is such a beautiful little town (I grew up in Toronto), it seems so unfair that it's now associated with the horror of Bernardo and Homolka (who is about to come up for parole, I believe). I was really glad to read that they'd razed the "pink cottage" to the ground.
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[> Sorry to hear... -- Eric, 05:35:27 02/11/02 Mon
I'd hoped a place as sophisticated as Canada would've tossed the hoary "disposable human" law enforcement philosophy that reigns in the third world and many parts of America. (It happened in the Green River murders mentioned above, and a case in Alaska) Currently I reside in an Okie burg that caters to it too.:( In the modern world nobody should just "disappear".
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[> Sigh ... -- verdantheart, 06:35:53 02/11/02 Mon
This sort of story makes me so sad--that people are considered less important because they're prostitutes, homeless, or in some other marginalized state. I've no doubt that's why it took so very long for authorities to catch up with the Green River Killer. (I'd have thought there would have been more publicity surrounding his capture, but I've heard nearly nothing beyond a blurb!) Police in San Diego (where I used to live) were unofficially convinced that a series of prostitute murders in that city were connected to the Green River killings, but nothing came of their investigation, either. I have no idea whether these cases have been closed now that the GRK has been captured.

Your situation sounds sad indeed. If it turns out that this is a "body farm" it looks like it could have been uncovered much earlier (since soemone escaped) and lives could have been saved. Reminds me of the fellow who escaped the one serial killer (Dahmer, I think), but the police never followed up and looked more closely at the guy (was it because the incident involved homosexuals?).

Again, sigh. Good luck to your community.
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[> You want to talk about nightmares?? Real life *is* scary...... -- AurraSing, 09:45:05 02/11/02 Mon
Popped by to see what's what and spotted this item.....my brother-in-law moved his family to a nice townhouse in Port Coquitlam about 4 or 5 years ago from their small town life outside of Calgary,much against his kids and wife's wishes.

Right away trouble ensued because within about a month of moving to the area,a young girl was kidnapped out of her bedroom and murdered in one of the communities not that far from Port Coquitlam.My niece (all of twelve at the time) had screaming nightmares about what happened and ending up sharing bunk beds with her little brother because she was terrified to sleep alone for the better part of a year.....

Well,guess what ?? The townhouse they live in is barely 2 minutes away from the infamous "pig farm" and in fact both my niece and nephew spent several summers riding their bikes over property sold off for housing development by the owners. Both of the kids are having nightmares now and kids who attend a school that was built on former farm property are terrified.

The long term affects of this story will be far reaching if evidence of bodies is found on the farm,because it's possible that the brothers have got off easy on previous charges because they could afford good lawyers.....by selling off land that could contain evidence to the fate of 50 missing women.There's nothing like a few tons of cement to cover-up clues.

I can't picture what it would be like to be scared to walk the streets and wake up most nights in a cold sweat because of your bad dreams,yet evidentally such is the case for my poor niece and nephew.Monsters do indeed walk amongst us...
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[> [> Re: Yikes! -- WW, 18:11:30 02/11/02 Mon
That's a little too close to home.

We have, not just monsters, but real sicko's here--my sister-in-law was home alone in Maple Ridge yesterday morning and the phone rang...the call display showed "Robert Pickton." (name of one of the owners of the pig farm)

She absolutely freaked and my brother had to call the police and the phone company when he came home. The phone company said they didn't know how someone could make that show up on call-display, and that my brother should call the number back and see who it was. It was a machine shop in Port Coquitlam, and they said they've never heard of Robert Pickton.

The police took down all the information and said they'd get back to them...so far, nothing.

It can't be that difficult to hack into the BC phone company computer, but what possible sick motivation would you have to have to do something like that? I'm just hoping it was a random incident, and not someone playing with them deliberately, 'cause my brother is fit to be tied.

And so it goes...
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NYC Get Together -- Kimberly, 10:24:59 02/09/02 Sat

For those of you in NYC, which would be the best Path exit to take to Two Boots? We seldom go into the city and can't quite figure it out.

Thanks.
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[> Re: NYC Get Together -- darrenK, 11:47:44 02/09/02 Sat
34th street.

Then take the F train downtown.

Get out at the 2nd ave. stop.

This will put you out on E. Houston street.

Walk East two long blocks to the corner of Ave. A and Houston. Make a left.

The restaurant is at 37 Ave. A between 2nd and 3rd streets.

See you there.

dK

The rest. is at 37 ave. A between 2nd and 3rd streets.
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[> btw, I'm not coming -- vampire hunter D, 13:47:35 02/09/02 Sat
I've decided that a 5 hour drive is too far to go. Plus I wouldn't get home till almost 2 in the morning.

And Darrenk sent me bad directions. Dude, I'm in Pennsylvania. I have no clue where the New Jersey Turn Pike is.
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[> [> New Jersey is the S shaped state between Pa and NYC -- darrenK, 14:55:39 02/09/02 Sat
Dear Keith--

I can't help but feel a little defensive about your attack on my abilities as a navigator, especially since I've given a couple of other people directions.

From your post I can see that you've never actually driven into Manhattan from Pennsylvania. NYC is at the extreme southern tip of New York State and New Jersey is actually between New York City and ANY destination in Pennsylvania.

The very famous New Jersey Turnpike MUST be used to enter Manhattan from any southern or eastern destination as it feeds all of the the entry points to lower or midtown Manhattan including the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel and the George Washington Bridge.

You even need to use the Turnpike if you want to cross into Brooklyn by way of Staten Island.

The only way to avoid using the Turnpike to enter Manhattan is to enter through the Bronx from the North. To do that from Pennsylvania you'd have to drive VERY far out of your way. That route is only advisable if you were coming from upstate New York or Connecticut.

Since you don't seem to trust other people's directions, I recommend that you stop asking for them and learn to use mapquest or even an atlas.
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[> [> [> Wait! We're not talking York, England?! Do I need the Turnpike for that? ;) -- mm, staying put in central Ohio, 15:04:12 02/09/02 Sat
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[> [> [> how do i get there from LA? -- SheWhoShallNotBeNamed, 15:41:42 02/09/02 Sat
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[> [> [> You've told me everything except where the turnpike is -- vampire hunter D, 16:23:38 02/09/02 Sat
I'm sure this is common knolwedge in NY or NJ, but not in central PA. ANd I don't appreciate the insulting and belittling tone of your post.
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[> [> [> [> Poking my nose in where it doesn't belong.... -- Wisewoman, 17:29:24 02/09/02 Sat
...but, really, vhD, you are the reigning master of the insulting and belittling tone in posts. I'm surprised you're so sensitive. darrenK was only responding to the tone of your post.

;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> I didn't intend mine to be that way -- vampire hunter D, 20:51:47 02/09/02 Sat
All I said was theat I don't know haow to get to the NJ Turnpike. He then went on to deliberatly inult me, like I'm stupid for not knowing how. Like he thinks everyone in the world should know how to get to his local streets.
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[> Re: NYC Get Together -- alcibiades, 17:48:46 02/09/02 Sat
When is this meeting in NYC?
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[> If no one gets staked on THIS go-round... -- Darby, 19:39:13 02/09/02 Sat
If this turns out well - maybe even if it doesn't - I'd like to be on the list of "I was interested and within commuting distance but just couldn't work it out this weekend."
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[> [> Ditto -- Earl Allison, 06:50:37 02/10/02 Sun
I'd love to have dropped in, since I'm not very far away (just 20 miles north of Boston, MA), but bad things at work are keeping me tied to the desk :(

My best to all who go, enjoy!

Take it and run.
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[> [> [> Re: 20 miles north of Boston - That puts you in Peabody? -- Brian, 09:42:25 02/10/02 Sun
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[> How was it? -- cknight, 08:33:24 02/10/02 Sun
how was it?
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Shocking realization (Only a spoiler if I'm right) -- RichardX1, 19:47:20 02/09/02 Sat

Has anyone else here realized that the Groosalugg is Connor?
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[> How do you reckon that? -- Leaf, 19:56:42 02/09/02 Sat
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[> EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! -- Apophis, 19:59:10 02/09/02 Sat
That would be messed up.
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[> [> personal theory (spoilers) -- Apophis, 20:10:56 02/09/02 Sat
While you can look above to get my opinion on Connor and Groo being one and the same (to summarize: ewwwwwwww!), I have a somewhat similar theory. What we have is 1) a baby with an identifying scar on his cheek (assuming that the cut he recieved scarred over), 2) a villain with very personal reasons to hurt Angel in a very personal way, and 3) a demon with the ability to, in some fashion, travel through time. I'll bet $1,000,000 (note: bet not valid in Milky Way Galaxy) that Connor gets raised by Holtz or Sahjan in another dimension and comes back to kill Angel (all this riding on Sahjan's ability to go backwards in time, which, in retrospect, I realize hasn't been established; his future knowledge may well have been due to precognition)
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[> [> [> Re: personal theory (spoilers) -- Cynthia, 05:09:53 02/10/02 Sun
Nah. My theory is that Holtz kidnaps Connor and he and Justine raise him in England during the Victorian era. Where as an adult, by the name of William,he gets rejected by Cecily and vamped by Dru.

It would be the ultimate irony, wouldn't it? And the greatest pain. Sorta a cosmic payback for the pain Angelus/Angel has inflicted on others. Would explain alot about Spike too in why he seems to be so different than other vampires.
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[> [> [> [> Too Perfect! -- La Duquessa, 11:28:48 02/10/02 Sun
Oh please I hope they make it so...would that not be a most delicious irony?!
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[> [> [> problem w/that is... (spoilers) -- anom, 11:48:55 02/10/02 Sun
"I'll bet...that Connor gets raised by Holtz or Sahjan in another dimension...."

...that doesn't go w/the personal history the Gruselagg told Cordelia in Pylea, or especially w/his personality. After all, he could have lied about the 1st, but I don't think he could fake the 2nd. Being raised by a cruel, humorless sadist single-mindedly bent on vengeance couldn't possibly have led to his being that rather sweet fellow we saw, oddly innocent despite having successfully battled numerous fearsome types trying to get himself killed because he couldn't deal w/being different...OK, so the innocence doesn't go w/the story he told either. But (my last-ditch argument) Gru doesn't really seem all that smart--how could he be the child of 2 parents as intelligent as Angel & Darla? (So there.)
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[> [> [> [> clarification -- Apophis, 13:10:42 02/10/02 Sun
I was proposing a different fate for Connor, not the Gruselagg theory. Gru's unnaturally blue eyes exclude him from the running (in my mind, at least).
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[> [> [> Another reason to 'Kick the baby!' ;-) -- Nevermore, 13:53:34 02/10/02 Sun
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[> So, that would mean that...........spoilers for ATS -- Rufus, 22:22:42 02/09/02 Sat
Cordy is all ga ga over a guy she has changed the diapers of.....ewwwwwwwwww.
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[> [> My point exactly -- Apophis, 22:26:08 02/09/02 Sat
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[> How is this possible? -- Dichotomy, 13:22:25 02/10/02 Sun
I don't think Gru is Connor, but that aside, if he is, how can baby Connor and Gru be in the same time period and dimension at the same time? I'm sure there have been instances of just such a thing happening (or not being able to happen), but I don't recall. Anyone?
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[> [> Re: How is this possible? -- Darby, 19:19:47 02/10/02 Sun
There are no physical laws precluding the same object occupying the same time repeatedly (partly because any object is not just its 3-D mass signature but a unique time signature and well - Connor at age 3 months is not physically the same entity as Connor at age 3 months and one second, let alone as an adult), if you get past a general acceptance that time travel - backward, at least - isn't possible. Heck, the old "law" of 2 objects not being able to occupy the same space has become more of a "strong suggestion" under quantum physics. The "2 beings, same time" rule is, as far as I know, a sometime science fiction construct that has been accepted as real - like anything that gets passed around enough.

Time is fun stuff, but nobody really knows how it works - or why it works, even. There are some interesting theories about various universes with different time laws existing in the same place as ours - not quite different dimensions, but similar. And I just learned that gravity fields slow the passage of time, a wonderful concept for science fiction application but pretty useless in this discussion; just thought it was interesting.
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[> [> [> Thanks, Darby! -- Dichotomy, 12:30:06 02/11/02 Mon
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Warren as FOIL for Spike -- Spike Lover, 20:37:11 02/09/02 Sat

Ok, I apologize ahead of time if this subject has already been posted. I have not seen this website in a few weeks.

Well, kids, the writers seem to be responding to all of the viewers who have claimed that Spike can not be a good 'mate' for Buff because he is a souless, evil creature.

Dead Things seems to be about comparisons as the dialogue echoes other dialogues from eps past.
1) Buffy beats Spike w/out mercy in the alley. 'A soulless, evil thing like you could never know how I feel.' Spike takes the beating. In the end he allows her to go. He does not try to kill her or bite her. (I said he does not try to kill her; I did not say he did not try to keep her from going to the cops.)

Katrina says a few things about Warren and his time w/ the sex bot. She beats the trio up (and ironically is also trying to go to the police). Warren uses deadly force to stop her from going.

I think clearly the writers are giving us a comparison between a soulless creature and a souled human being, both w/ a disfunctional moral compass. In my very biased opinion, Spike is coming out better.
Look again: in 'Crush' Spike has tied up Buff and demanded that she declare her love for him. She replies that the only chance he had with her was when she was unconscious.

That is exactly Warren and the trio's plan with the device, and not specifically w/ Katrina, because they were just going to pick a woman to use it on. I wondered if it even occurred to the trio to do what William the struggling poet had done, -attempt to actually win a woman's affections and risk rejection. Although similar in sexual history, William (the 1800's nerd) has more honor than these bozos. Perhaps that is unfair. William strove to be and was 'a good man'; the trio is trying to be 'supervillians'.

So, hypothetically, which would you rather see Buffy with? the soulless, evil creature called Spike or the souled, 'misdirected' human called Warren.

I really liked this episode because of the honesty. They really called a spaid a spaid in the Katrina scene. Sex Slave has such a nicer ring to it then RAPE Victim and yet that is exactly what the trio was plotting. Kudos for the surprise on Jonathan's face when she explained that it was rape.

I also LOVED the final scene w/ Tara, when Buff finally told someone who she was involved with. Could shame be her real problem? Kudos to the writers for having Tara ask the one question we all WANT to know. 'Do you love him?' and for adding "it is okay if you do. He has done a lot of good and he does love you."
Kudos also for having Buffy admit that 'using him' is wrong. For realizing it is not who she is/wants to be. But it may be what she has allowed herself to become.

I am curious to see where she will go now that she knows she is not substantially changed. She can not make the excuse for herself that it is ok to act this way because she is part demon. Interestingly, she rejects using the excuse that she is acting out from all the stress she is under. (That takes maturity.)
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[> Does anyone actually believe Tara? (*S6 Spoilers*) -- manwitch, 09:48:14 02/10/02 Sun
"She can not make the excuse for herself that it is ok to act this way because she is part demon."

I love Tara, and I think she is sincere in telling Buffy she's ok. But I don't know that I believe it. Are we supposed to accept, after weeks of seeing Spike can do this but it isn't a problem with his chip, that the explanation is a simple as what Tara gave? No way.

Plus, we need to remember some earlier unanswered questions.

Xander to Willow: What were we into back there Wil?

Willow doesn't answer.

Angry Spooky Buffy Ghost to Willow: Did you cut the throat? Did you pat it's head? The blood dried on your hands, didn't it? You were stained. You still are. I know what you did.

Tara to Willow: What was it talking about? Did you understand it?

Willow: I understood the words, but, no.

Willow lies. Even if the Buffy Ghost was saying nasty evil things for its own purposes, we know that Willow lied to Tara.

Something is still "out there" about that spell.

I like your points on the Spike/Warren comparison. Definitely the soul is not in and of itself the source of good. I also was really impressed at the impact of Trina saying "rape." Cuz I felt like I, too, had been suckered into the idea that turning women into their sex slaves was a silly goofy idea for these child-like doofusses. But its always been rape. That was a really well-done and well-deserved shock.

I would love to see Buffy with Spike. Love the other. Love your enemy. Spike is her first man-thing that doesn't attempt to put limits on her. (Hand-cuffs maybe, but not limits).

I'm definitely hoping to see Jonathon come over to the good side. He's sort of being set up to be the "X" factor.
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[> [> Re: Does anyone actually believe Tara? (*S6 Spoilers*) -- Wiscoboy, 11:27:37 02/10/02 Sun
The only time Tara has lied to the group is when she had a
misconception of self perpetuated by her family. I think the simple reason for Buffy's "wrongness", and why Spike can now strike at her is that since she was pulled from Heaven, she is no longer borne of this world. In effect, she no longer is on this earth because of natural reproduction, but is here thru her "mystical" birth. Therefore, Tara is being truthful when she tells Buffy that coming back as she did changed her molecular structure, making her invisible to Spike's chip. As to whether Buffy has become immortal(discussed in a much earlier and high-level thread) thru this birthing, only Joss and the writers know where they're taking this.
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just saw dead things... -- bodhi, 20:46:43 02/09/02 Sat

just saw the episode, dont know about other thoughts but anybody else have a problem with katrina's death? how did buffy or spike not figure out that the body wasnt fresh. spike, whos been around the dead for centuries, couldnt even tell a freshly killed body vs. one thats been dead for AT LEAST an hour. rigor mortis sets in as early as ten minutes in some cases (dependent largely on external factors like temp)....

another thing, anyone else getting largely annoyed with buffy's bratty little sis dawn?

oh like the idea below on ANGEL - connor being one of those two other fools (gru or the vamp killer)....angel taking on the whole goofy father role is also annoying, they need to kill connor off.....
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[> oh well -- bodhi, 21:14:17 02/09/02 Sat
just scrolled down the rest of this discussion board and realized that others too felt the same way i did...oh well, disregard the above...

but hey, i would still like to state that dawn is annoying as hell and they really need to do something about her...
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[> [> Dawn is fifteen -- Vickie, 22:58:57 02/09/02 Sat
I think annoying is in the job description.
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[> [> [> Re: Dawn is fifteen...so what, that gives her a license to be an idiot? -- MayaPapaya9, 13:58:32 02/10/02 Sun
Um, as someone who's 16, allow my to respectfully take offense! I too agree that Dawn is selfish and complete brat and I was just starting to like her this season too. I hoped she was developing a sense of maturity but nooooo, she has a brattiness fit at her poor troubled sister who already has so many other problems to deal with. The stupid girl is ditching school when her home situation is so unstable. She needs to get over herself.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Dawn is fifteen...so what, that gives her a license to be an idiot? -- CW, 15:58:22 02/10/02 Sun
You're right, course. But, many of us who are older remember the middle-school/junior-high years of our lives as the time when we personally were guilty of the most disgraceful behavior. We may have done worse things on occasion in our lives later, but we generally acted the worst and treated others the worst during those years. At 15, Dawn should be growing out of it more than she's shown. At 16 you are, no doubt, well on the way to boring, responsible adulthood. ;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, CW -- Vickie, 10:46:52 02/11/02 Mon
For getting my virtual foot out of my mouth for me.
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[> The cold body thing is NOT a plothole... -- Rob, 07:59:38 02/10/02 Sun
Tanker posted this farther down, but I'll reprint it here:

"Steven DeKnight [the writer of this ep] said on the Bronzebeta board that they thought of adding a scene where we see the Trio preparing Katrina's body so it's not cold (whether through magic or weird science he didn't say), but they decided it would slow the action down too much. They did think of it."

Hope that clears things up. :o)

Rob
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[> [> Re: The cold body thing is NOT a plothole... -- bodhi, 09:18:55 02/10/02 Sun
thats bull man, i am really getting sick of the whole magic business on this show. it gives limitless possibilities, explanations...you can explain everything or do anything with magic. if any villian on the show had half a brain, buffy and company would have been wiped out by now....or vice versa...

and why couldnt they just have warren or someone say, "prepare the body." five syllables, hardly slows the show down. and it would cover this "plothole".
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[> [> [> Re: The cold body thing is NOT a plothole... -- manwitch, 09:59:34 02/10/02 Sun
They were also in a series of temporal folds that could have something to do with it. Perhaps they couldn't tell how much time had elapsed.

That said, I sorta agree with you. I also don't think stuff that is edited out can be used to explain stuff that isn't otherwise explained. The audience shouldn't have to work out what the explanation probably is. This particular "plothole" is not a stumbling block for me, although I asked my wife the same thing (Can't Spike tell whether or not that's fresh?). I don't really ask this show to be rigorously consistent in its literal plotline as long as it stays consistent in its spirit, its "ness." And I liked that episode a lot.

But what doesn't make it into the final piece, doesn't make it into the final piece. My opinion, anyway.
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[> [> [> [> The cold body thing is NOT a plothole... -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 18:19:58 02/10/02 Sun
Maybe the Terrible Trio just had a very large slow cooker . . .
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[> [> [> The fact is, with only 42-44 minutes to play with, sometimes they need to take out important stuff. -- Rob, 19:37:17 02/10/02 Sun
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[> [> [> And... -- Rob, 19:42:34 02/10/02 Sun
Dude, I really think you should chill. I really don't understand how you could "get sick of the whole magic business on this show" because...face it, this is a magic show. It is a fantasy. It doesn't have to follow the rules of the real world. This is the Buffyverse. Rules don't apply here.

Rob
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[> [> [> [> Re: And... -- bodhi, 21:22:15 02/11/02 Mon
hey robbie, little quick on the trigger finger arent we? take it easy man, no need to get aggressive...i can see that you are very passionate about the show.

anyways, all i am asking for is 5 syllables, but in the grand scheme of things, those 5 syllables could very well add another 2 seconds to the 42-45 minutes....so, i guess that would be too much...

i dunno, i just think the genius behind buffyverse was to create a world that is "fantasy" yet the moral/ethical and some physical rules somehow manage to apply. otherwise it would be random chaos. the episodes have to make sense to me...feel the shows gone too far, the magic and other sh*t has gotten outta hand. hard for me to explain, but the shows lost something...only seen a few good episodes this year.
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[> [> [> [> [> Couldn't disagree more! But sorry for biting your head off...Virtual handshake. :-) -- Rob, 14:32:01 02/12/02 Tue
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If no body wants me here then just say so! -- vampire hunter D, 21:00:37 02/09/02 Sat

darrenk treats me like I'm an ididot. Wisewoman tells me I'm he reigning king of insulting posts. Sounds to me like my opinion is at best unappreciated or just unwelcome here. Well if taht's the case, then just tell me and I will leave.

And btw: I have never intended to deliberatly insult anyone on theis board. I like you guys too much to do so. I just say what I honestly see as the truth. If that is an insult, then sorry. The one person here who I don't like enough to insult I just ignore. (SO what was with that comment WW?

(and in case you didn't getit yet, this post was made while I was drunk)
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[> Whoa! Calm down, D! ;o) -- WW, 21:19:59 02/09/02 Sat
Again, I'm surprised at your sensitivity. I accept that you don't intend to deliberately insult anyone, but a posting board such as this is a medium where the written word can often be misinterpreted--that's why "smilies," or emoticons were invented, to give other people a clue as to your state of mind that might not be obvious from your words.

As an example:

"darrenK gave me bad directions."

"darrenK gave me bad directions! ;)"

One is a bald statement that can be interpreted as being critical of darren, or even angry with him; the other implies a certain sense of humour about the situation, which is less offensive.

I'm not suggesting you should start using smilies all over the place, I'm just trying to point out how any of us can offend someone else without realizing it.

And, of course, the danger of inadvertently offending someone is only multiplied if you post while drunk (unless you're Marie!). So why don't we discuss this tomorrow, when you're sober? It probably won't seem nearly as important then...

;o) (a winking smile indicating understanding and affection)
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[> [> Hey! (and is there an emoticon for "Shamefaced grin"?! -- Marie, 05:29:54 02/10/02 Sun
(And vhD - don't worry about it! I often think that people wouldn't get half so upset if only the typed word could show the nuances of speech. We love you, really! - me especially, 'cos now someone else has posted drunk!(said with a grin!))

Marie
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[> [> Re: an idle thought on emoticons.... -- mundusmundi, 13:05:48 02/10/02 Sun
Anybody else here despise them? I cringe at the thought of classic writers of the past living in an era in which they were employed. Imagine Fitzgerald:

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.";););)

On the other hand, given the constraints of this medium, I do admit they are useful. The only post that's ever halfway angered me -- written, ironically, by one of the smartest people here -- would have benefitted greatly from a simple emoticon. (If I remember correctly, dubdub, you responded to that one with far greater magnanimity than may have been deserved. :)
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[> [> [> Re: an idle thought on emoticons.... -- anom, 12:45:59 02/12/02 Tue
"Anybody else here despise them?"

I hate the basic one (you know the one I mean)--that's why I use the mutant cyclops @>). I think it has to do with overexposure to it in the '70s. On the other hand, I kinda admire the creativity of some of the variations--one drawback of my mutant version is that I can't make it wink: )>) ? Nah.

"Imagine Fitzgerald:
'So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.';););)"

LOL! (how ya feel about net abbr's., mm?) But at least you don't see emoticons in books even today, unless they're about the Internet. Not yet, at least--or maybe I just haven't seen them.
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[> The end of the turnpike? Special nice vibes out to WW -- darrenK, 00:12:05 02/10/02 Sun
First off, I won't deny that the tone of my post was somewhat arch, but I was put off by the tone of your post.

I e-mailed you directions on how to get to the gathering, but you only told me you were coming from PA, you didn't say where in PA or that you needed directions from your house or town. The turnpike usually provides a nice generic place to start a set of directions into Manhattan.

If you needed more help, you should have e-mailed me for a clarification. Instead you posted on the board that I'd given you bad directions like I'd done it intentionally or had refused to clarify them.

I tried to help you and instead you chose to try and embarrass me. So I felt that your post wasn't only insulting, it was ungrateful.

I don't know where you live, nor do I know the exact highways that connect you to the Turnpike, but I would have been happy to help you find out, if only you'd have asked.

This is a misunderstanding about directions to a gathering you couldn't come to anyway and should not affect whether or not you continue to participate in discussions here on this board where ALL have ALWAYS been made so welcome.

I'm sorry for my part in blowing this thing out of proportion and I really don't want it to continue.

Thanks to WiseWoman for making large with the peaceful and friendly. It's appreciated. Obviously, the WW moniker is well earned : )
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[> Re: If no body wants me here then just say so! -- JM, 06:05:06 02/10/02 Sun
Yikes, the posting while drunk. There really ought to be citations for that sort of thing. Might keep me from doing it.

Because I then have to go through the morning after ritual of looking for those posts. So far, the only damage I've done is confused logic and bad grammar. Think I'll stick to fanficing while under the influence.

(Note: Wow, tone is hard to achieve. This was meant to funny and commiserative, not lecturing. Or confessional, even in the slightest.)
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[> I like your posts... -- Malandanza, 08:57:16 02/10/02 Sun
Especially this one from a few days back:

Shul: Life is not made up of Black and White Morality.
Nor is not made up of eternal Shades of Grey.
Life is filled with light when your eyes are open, but filled with darkness when your eyes are closed.

vhD: I've tried opening my eyes. And all I saw was people trying to pluck them out.

Optimism meets vhD... a classic stuggle!
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[> Re: Hmm ... I've seen this ep. Did somebody hex the beer? :-) -- Dedalus, 09:31:23 02/10/02 Sun
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[> hey I like vhD -- Nevermore, 13:42:31 02/10/02 Sun
Me being a (The?) regular eccentric on this board, I can sympathise with your pisd-offness vhd ;-) Maybe people just don't like originality. Please continue loitering!
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[> All's well that ends well...I hope! -- Grace, 20:28:04 02/10/02 Sun
Not to but in on the NYC crowd, but seems like the transition from "on-line friends" to "in-person friends" didn't go too well (from the postings anyway....)

any attempts at trying again? or a recap of how the "actual" meeting went? I am a little saddened by the hurt feelings etc. that came from this seemingly great idea.

If you feel like sharing--I would like to know if you all staked and made up?
:-)
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[> [> Re: All's well that ends well...I hope! -- Edward, 20:03:59 02/11/02 Mon
Kimberly actually did post a short message that night, it's gone off to archives now.

Kimberly and I certainly had a good time and we hope that the others did as well. (Our son age6 fell asleep after taking about 3 bytes of pizza, but that was not a comment on the company, but the time.)

There was good food, and conversation with 8 adults (and one sleeping child) and I know we would be interested in doing something like it again, although the commute to the city is a little bit out of the way for us.
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[> [> [> I think I can speak for the others and say that we also had a good time -- d'Herblay, 20:49:39 02/11/02 Mon
After Kimberly, Edward and their son began the long treck home, the remainder (anom, darrenK, Rahael and myself) slouched westward with the intent of securing Rah's Region 1 DVDs. (She's a completist, that Rahael. She has all of me.) After that, the four of us bent ears and elbows at a local bar. We continued to discuss Buffy (among other things) before finally dispersing at one a.m.

My thanks to all who showed up. Those who could not make it were sorely missed.
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[> [> [> [> had a great time, wish you'd all been there!... -- anom, 21:29:37 02/11/02 Mon
...well, maybe not all at once--woulda gotten crowded. (How many posters are there anyway?) I was sorry to see later that there were some inquiries that didn't get answered in time (I don't use the computer on Shabbes & our out-of-towners had limited access, due to the primitive conditions here in NYC). But we could have a good time even without them, right? OK, not as good a time, but still...I'd go to another local/regional get-together.

Maybe every poster who takes a trip should alert the board & we'll have a welcoming committee wherever we go!
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Is Dawn a clone? -- LeeAnn, 06:21:39 02/10/02 Sun

Dawn was made from Buffy's blood, which I take to mean her genetic material. Is Dawn articulating Buffy's unspoken thoughts, that Buffy doesn't want to be here, that she was happier where she was, that she wants to go back?
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[> Yes and no... -- Darby, 08:05:31 02/10/02 Sun
No in the strictest sense - she was created to be a sister, and that's what she is (as a clone, she'd look like a young SMG, and that's obviously not true).

It seems, though, now that the Key thing is of the past, that she may be representing what Buffy would have been like without the whole Slayer gig - and the important Giles role in her life. If so, I think she's a bit more extreme than she should be - Buffy may remember herself as an annoying mini-Cordelia, but the way she stepped into her Slayer role speaks volumes about the inner Buffy,

But maybe not. Let's compare Dawn to aspects of post-Slayer Buffy. Dawn is self-absorbed. Buffy? Check. Dawn can actively ignore when she's hurt others feelings. Buffy? Check. Dawn can purposely try to hurt other's feelings when they don't give her the emotional support she feels she needs. Buffy? Check. Dawn often ignores possible consequences for more-or-less instant gratification. Buffy? Check. Dawn has really long hair...finally, a significant difference!

Chime in - when Michelle was hired, it wasn't to be the Key and then die. What do you think the longterm plan was for Dawn (and don't beat "replacement Slayer" to death with a stake)?
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[> [> Just the facts -- manwitch, 09:09:20 02/10/02 Sun
I offer no conclusions. But...

Some sort of "power" accepted Buffy for Dawn as either an identical or equivalent sacrifice of blood.

Buffy, in Season 1, didn't really want to be the slayer. The end of Season 1 is her real acceptance of the Slayer Calling. She dies to the whining child that wants normalcy and comes to life as the Slayer. She's 16.

Dawn is currently 15 (A small point that the show nearly screams at us every epidsode). There is clearly some sort of equivalency between her and Buffy, and its at the level of Blood. Slayer Blood has long been noted to have special properties in the Buffyverse. If Buffy's blood is the same as Dawn's (The Gift) than can we assume that Dawn's is the same as Buffy's?

Sarah Michelle Gellar's contract is up at the end of Season 7 (n'est-ce pas?), the season in which Dawn will be 16.

I would also ask, what is the plan for Buffy? Is she to continue on as the slayer until she is finally killed? Kinda depressing. Or will she be let out of her contract, so to speak? Let someone else take over? Doesn't immediately look like it'd be Faith, who is busy taming a prison population somewhere. And if Faith doesn't die, there's no other Slayers, according to Joss. Where else could someone get Slayer blood? Hmmmmmm.

Note: I still don't think the whole key issue has been adequately resolved. The "energy" incarnated in Dawn still has something to offer, or the monkees wouldn't a kept it alive.
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[> [> [> Re: If Dawn is a clone, will she attack? Sorry, Episode Two j/k -- Dedalus, 09:33:05 02/10/02 Sun
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[> [> Re: Yes and no... -- Apophis, 10:25:29 02/10/02 Sun
The way I understood it, Dawn was a being of energy (possibly sentient, possibly not) that was transmuted by the monks into a being of matter. Her body was based on, but not cloned from, Buffy's DNA. Hence, they are similar enough to be sisters, but not identical twins (which is, essentially, what a clone and its template are, despite the age difference).
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Stricken from the Record (BtVS fiction) -- matching mole, 14:45:11 02/10/02 Sun

Here, after a long delay is the next installment. Hopefully anyone still interested won't have completely forgotten the plot (such as it is). This is set in the time period of Smashed and Wrecked. I reckon that I'm about halfway through - I'll take a break until the current round of new episodes is over and then start again.

Dedicated to everyone on this board who's ever had to sit through a favulty meeting and to Wisewoman who has always had something kind to say about each installment.

A couple of explanatory notes for those who may not know.

Extension Agents are people associated with universities whose primary task is to provide services to members of the larger community (e.g. teach farmers about new strains of crop plants, new pest insects, etc.)

Research One refers to a system of classifying universities in the U.S. Research One institutions are large, with extensive graduate programs. A successful research program is generally the most important aspect of a faculty member's career at such an institution (as opposed to teaching).

Red Green refers 'The Red Green Show' a strange and deliberately unsophisticated Canadian comedy program that is seen on public television in the US


Stricken from the Record
Shadows on the Bottom of the Sea Part V

"I hereby call this meeting to order." The Chair of the Department of Eldritch Studies glanced at her watch before surveying the room. A substantial number of ornately carved seats around the mahogany table were empty. "Where is everybody?"
A seven foot tall demon dressed in robes of crimson and black with a face of awful beauty replied, "Mark said he was coming down with something. I'll bet he stayed home today."
"And you know that both F'thrula and Gordon never show up, Janet," said a short bald man seated at the far end of the table who was using a laser pointer to trace the outlines of the curvaceous demons stitched onto the heavy drapes that sealed out the California sunshine.
"Yes, thank you Anton," the Chair's tone was frosty. She turned her gaze from the bald man to the tall demon, "and you as well, Crachthyon. What about Annabelle?"
"Always late." Anton put down his pointer and started doodling on his note pad.
"Carnoth of the Red Tower?"
"Didn't you hear?" A rather nondescript man in a cardigan spoke. "Carnoth was killed last Thursday."
"Oh no." The Chair put her face in her hands. "That makes four new vacancies this semester. The dean will never let us keep all those lines. Not with the current budget."
"Was it...?" Crachthyon turned his glorious and terrible visage to the man in the cardigan.
"Yup." The man nodded. "Slayer."
Crachthyon glared. "Were you completely uninvolved in this unfortunate incident, Doug?"
Doug raised his hands and held them out for Crachthyon to observe. "Squeaky clean. See?"
"That's exactly the problem. As an extension agent for the forces of Good you have a conflict of interest."
"Are you accusing Douglas of unprofessional ethics?" The Chair frowned at Crachthyon.
"No, certainly not," Crachthyon said hastily. "My apologies, Doug for any implied criticism. It's just that faculty with certain philosophies seem to suffer particularly high rates of attrition. I am now the only member actively involved in Evil left in the whole department. And my own survival is largely due to the highly theoretical nature of my research."
"Hey. I'm Evil too," protested a young woman who had not previously spoken.
"Sorry Patricia." Crachthyon inclined his head. "I wasn't intentionally ignoring you. But you must admit that your commitment to Evil is half-hearted at best. Didn't I see you petting a kitten last week?"
"You could interpret that as indicating a fondness for gambling." Anton was drawing a crude sketch of three kittens playing poker. "Sounds pretty evil to me."
"I can assure you," Doug interrupted, "that I can keep my responsibilities as an extension agent for the forces of Good and those as an adjunct member of this department entirely separate. All conflicts are filed with the departmental ombudsman." Doug looked at the one being at the table who had not yet spoken, a five foot long blob with corkscrew eyestalks and eight feet, all encased in Doc Martens. "This year I have filed eighty five such reports. My extension responsibilities have caused me to foil a number of schemes hatched by Carnoth in his capacity as the extension agent for Evil but my loyalty to the university and my belief in academic freedom would never allow me to harm another faculty member."
"How about a graduate student?" Anton didn't look up from his doodling as he spoke.
"A graduate student, eh? That's a very different story." Everyone chuckled at Doug's comment.
"If we could get down to business." The Chair shuffled the papers in front of her. "I'd like to introduce a new member of our office staff." She gestured to a rather amorphous demon adhered to the wall to her left. "This is the THING WITH 57 EYES, a recent immigrant to Sunnydale. It appears to have an outstanding work ethic and a very good memory. It assures me that it can recall the events of an entire meeting with no need for short hand."
"Everything?" Crachthyon raised one magnificent yet horrifying eyebrow. "Couldn't you forget about what I said just now? Doug is a valued colleague even if he does misguidedly toil against the forces of darkness and I wouldn't want folks to think I was disrespectful."
"I don't think I can just forget things sir. Would it be O.K. if I just don't write it down in the official minutes later?"
"Yes, yes that's fine, THING." The Chair seemed anxious to move on. "So can we have a motion to officially welcome THING to Eldritch Studies?"
"I move to welcome the THING WITH 37 EYES to the Department of Eldritch Studies, Madam Chair."
"That's 57 EYES, but thank you Crachthyon. Anyone care to second the motion?"
"I'll second it." Doug grinned at Crachthyon.
"All in favour?"
A muted chorus of 'ayes' followed.
"Very good." The Chair turned to the secretary on the wall. "Let the record show that the vote was unanimous.
"Is there any old business?" She looked around the room. "Anything left from last time?"
"Can we speed this up, Janet?" The bald man looked up. "I have a class in half an hour."
Janet glared at Anton. "If there is no old business then I will start the new business with a brief report on my meeting with the Dean. Unfortunately the news is far from good. UC Sunnydale has had its budget slashed by 1.2% and he is asking all departments to cut back. If we are to have any hope of hiring new faculty to fill our vacant lines we must economize in other areas. Starting immediately we will have to start charging faculty grants for use of the departmental copier. The office and magical supplies cabinets will be kept locked and faculty must record material that they remove to prevent a recurrence of past abuses of departmental resources. The basilisk lips in particular are being used at a staggering rate. Please limit yourselves to no more than seven per month."
"Seven?" Anton stopped doodling and glared at Janet. "Who uses seven basilisk lips in a semester? Somebody's been using seven in a month?"
"The month before last the department supply was depleted by over 160 basilisk lips. That is approximately fifteen per faculty member."
"I've only used half a dozen in the past year." Anton shifted his gaze from being to being around the table as if he were an interrogator brought in to uncover the notorious basilisk lip waster.
"Some people have active research programs." Patricia met Anton's gaze defiantly.
"Be that as it may," Janet said wearily, "the department can only afford to supply each of you with seven lips per month."
"If other faculty don't use their full complement, will the excess be available for those who need them?" Patricia asked.
"Let's look at how many get used next month. We have used up most of the year's stock in one semester. Shall we move on?" Janet picked up a paper from the top of her pile.
"What am I supposed to do until then?"
"You could go down to the magic shop and buy your own if you really need so many. The next item on the agenda is..."
"This is really irresponsible." Patricia broke in, raising her normally quiet voice to a shrill pitch. "It shows a real lack of concern for the special needs of Evil faculty. The slayer is known to spend a significant amount of time at the magic shop. One of my graduate students presented data to that effect at our last symposium. If I were to go to the magic shop I would be placing myself in significant danger of being slain."
Crachthyon started laughing. She stared at him coldly. He managed to compose himself. "I'm sorry Patricia. I really am. Evil is no excuse for lack of manners and collegiality. But I can't help it. You need to get out more. Unless your Evil starts to consist of more than giving Anton a nasty rash and erasing all records of your library fines I doubt that you are in much danger of being slain."
Patricia gasped, her jet-black hair quivering slightly. "Janet I must protest. This is inappropriate behavior. Crachthyon is defaming my accomplishments in my chosen field. In front of my peers."
"Oooh! You're both so evil!" Anton's voice dripped sarcasm as his pen moved furiously across his pad of paper. One of the kittens now had hair that was very similar in style to Patricia's severe cut.
"Alright, Patricia, please calm down. I'm sure arrangements can be made for you to obtain the basilisk lips you need. And Crachthyon, please desist from personal attacks. Evil is no excuse for incivility."
"He just said that." Anton actually smiled.
"Well he should listen to himself then." Janet snapped and fixed Anton with a glare that was two levels nastier than the earlier one.
"On to other business," Janet continued. "Are all the routine magicks working normally?"
"Yes, I believe so." Anton flipped through the pages of his pad until he found the one he wanted. "The Glamour of Cretinism has been renewed on all the relevant government agencies. There seems to be little danger of a second 'Initiative' fiasco. The Office Hours curse has only allowed three undergraduates to enter our department in the last five years."
"What about the Nerdly Lure? That was supposed to be implemented over a year ago when there was concern that the Slayer would leave the university." Doug opened his notebook and appeared to be looking for something. "The last thing I heard she had dropped out completely."
"She was back on campus a month or so ago." Anton frowned. "The spell must be taking a little while to kick in."
"I believe she was on campus for little more than an hour and left after being assaulted by those three irritating would-be super villains." Janet joined the discussion. "She has yet to return. Perhaps the spell should be checked?" Anton frowned and nodded agreement.
Janet pulled a letter from the bottom of her pile of documents. "I have here a communication from Association of Genii. Apparently one of their members came across a reference to the Necronomicon on out web site and was most offended."
"I guess that was my page." Patricia had slight hints of both defiance and hesitation in her voice. "I have a quite extensive section on deconstructing the mystical text." Crachthyon rolled his violet and gold eyes in their orbits. "But I don't see how it could offend anyone."
"Apparently you refer to the author as the Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred." Janet's voice stumbled as she read the unfamiliar words. "Is that correct?"
"More or less."
"Well the genii take exception to that description of the author."
"But that's the whole point. Writing the book drove him mad."
"Well what would you like me to say to the genii? Or perhaps you would like to respond?" Janet asked the second question with a not inconsiderable amount of hope in her voice. "You could probably explain it far better than I could. Tactfully too, I'm sure."
Patricia held out her hand for the letter with a resigned expression on her face.
"Now on to the main business of the afternoon." Janet pulled out her own pad of paper and put it on top of her pile of documents. "The next item on the agenda is a discussion of any new supernatural phenomena in the Sunnydale area and initial assignment of interesting demons, monsters of fable, witches, and so on to the appropriate member of the faculty. Extension members, unfortunately meaning Doug alone at this meeting, will comment on any practical problems arising from the new arrivals. Are there any observations to report?"
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[> Stricken from the Record (2) -- matching mole, 14:48:58 02/10/02 Sun
"Well, to state the obvious, there's an Old One in town."
"Is that an old one in the recently archaic meaning, i.e. a demon, Anton? Or do you refer to the transdimensional beings the predate the existence of our entire reality?" The slug-like being with the spiral eyestalks spoke for the first time. Her voice with deep, melodious, and distinctly feminine.
"What do you think, Mel? No one has used the term old one for demons in at least five years. I'm talking about the big tentacley thing that exists simultaneously in several planes."
"Just keeping the record straight." Mel wiggled her eyestalks. "An Old One. With capital letters. How delicious. I never thought I'd get one of those on my life list."
"I take it that the arrival of this Old One is a significant event?" Crachthyon turned his captivating yet sinister features towards Mel.
"Theoreticians." Anton directed a sneer at Crachthyon. "The Old Ones are at the heart of it all. Almost first in the cosmic scheme of things. Only the Elder Gods are more ancient."
"Gee, and I always thought it was the younger gods who were older than anyone." Crachthyon sneered right back. "Being old certainly hasn't resulted in very original names."
"If you're the first then by definition anything you do is original." Doug chimed in.
"I think that's enough banter." Janet stared at them over the top of her snake bone spectacles. "Is anyone interested in pursuing the Old One as a research project? Does he/she/it fit into anyone's existing research? Does the Old One represent a threat to any existing project?"
"A threat?" Doug chuckled. "That's completely up to it."
"I don't think we have enough information to answer your questions, Janet. Is this Old One acting for good or evil? Or does it have more complex motivations?" Crachthyon spoke calmly and smoothly. "If it is evil then I would of course like first claim at studying it."
"The Old One is beyond good and evil as you know it. You might as well ask if the heart of the sun is friendly."
"Oh grow up, Anton. Do you really buy any of that crap? Beyond good and evil? Next you'll be arguing that a book is just ink and paper. Pick a side!"
"Crachthyon that's enough." Janet's statement didn't come out quite as forcefully as she might have wanted. Several of the faculty were starting to mutter. It was quite amazing how much noise three or four mutterers could make.
"Would you like some detail on the Old One?" Mel's voice cut through the background discussion. "Maybe that would clarify things a little."
"Please." Janet waved her hand vaguely in Mel's direction. "And could you strike the last few comments from the record, THING?"
"Starting where, Dr. Delorme?"
"I guess everything back to where I started asking questions."
"...Do the Old Ones represent a threat, etc."
"Exactly. Now if you could continue, Mel."
"Well the Old Ones exist in many dimensions simultaneously. Each has a mass equivalent to a medium sized planet. Like Neptune, say. Of course only a small amount of that is present on any given plane. They are only actually aware on a few planes, possibly only one, at a time. Thus their forms usually appear to be sleeping."
"Are they dangerous?" Doug glanced over at both Anton and Crachthyon as he asked this.
"You betcha, honey." Mel seemed to relish the question. "Their transdimensional properties render them virtually invulnerable to any sort of conventional physical or magical trauma. They generally do not act in a manner we would consider as actively malevolent but they do not seem to regard other beings as really existing in any meaningful way. Things that only exist in a single plane are beneath their concern to be consumed, crushed, or ignored as suits their momentary purpose."
"Sounds like Evil to me. Ignoring the rights of others, wreaking havoc, all the bad stuff." Crachthyon was delighted. "I'm sure I could get a grant to pursue this Old One in depth. I could use it to demonstrate my work on the fundamental Evil at the heart of the multiverse."
"You haven't been in the field in years, Crach. There's an awful lot of slime out there. Not to mention blood, mucus, and other complex fluids." Doug's voice was deadpan. "And I'm not sure if just not caring makes you evil. That means a locomotive's evil? I spent a half an hour talking with the Old One today and that's what it reminded me of. An out of control locomotive speeding down the track towards a chicken coop." He grinned. "We're the chickens."
"Thank you, Doug." Patricia's voice sounded more pained than normal. "I was able to grasp the point of your little analogy without explanation. Despite its crude nature."
"So you perceive this Old One as a threat, Douglas?"
"A potential threat, Madam Chair. Given the capabilities that Mel has described there is little we could do to prevent any action it might choose to take. I doubt that even the Special Vice Provost for Apocalypses could accomplish much in this case. The Old One has tenure in a big way."
"Really?" Patricia smirked. "At a Research One institution?"
"In the universe, baby," replied Doug doing a reasonable Frank Sinatra imitation. "It's here to stay until entropy plays the last song."
"Ewww." Mel's eyestalks came half uncoiled. "Knock off the science talk. There's a time and a place for everything."
"Could we stay on topic for five seconds if it's not too much to ask." Janet looked at her watch.
"Yes madam Chair." Doug's voice was deadpan, again.
"Do I understand correctly, Douglas that you have had direct contact with this Old One?" Janet tried to keep her voice as calm as Doug's.
"Yeah, it interviewed me."
"It...interviewed you?" Crachthyon raised both of his glorious and grotesque eyebrows. "That's what I said. Sat me down, handed me a Double Meat Special and started asking questions."
"What did it ask, if I may be so bold?" asked Crachthyon. "That is if it's not a violation of professional ethics for me to ask."
"Mostly it asked me how I liked Sunnydale."
There was a long silence and then Janet spoke up. "And you replied, how?"
"It's on the beach, housing is cheap, and 'Red Green' is on PBS twice a week. What more could I ask for?"
"I find it difficult to believe that you were so flippant to an Old One." Mel giggled. "Although the idea is delicious. Most likely it asked you about demons and the like?"
"Just the general atmosphere. Nothing specific."
"I suggest," Janet looked straight at Doug who stared back innocently, "that we all keep our eyes and other sensory organs alert for information concerning the Old One. Based on Mel's statement it seems that there is little we can do to drive away this creature so we should try and learn as much as possible about its intentions. Are there any other newcomers to report?"
"A ghoul and a necromancer." Doug shrugged. "Pretty small potatoes. The necromancer seems to have vanished."
"There are a couple of potentially interesting humans as well," Mel chipped in. "They seem well informed on matters arcane. One is a former Watcher. She doesn't seem to be up to much. Just acting like a tourist."
"Sounds suspicious to me. The Watcher's council has ruined at least three of my experiments." Patricia glared at Anton who was smiling. "It's not funny."
"I quite agree," said Janet. "Perhaps you could look into it then, Patricia? Get the details from Mel. And what about the other, Mel?"
"She claims to represent seem some sort of demon liberation group according to my sources. Her goal appears to be removal of demons to a protected area to keep them apart from humans."
"This must be stopped at once." Patricia and Anton spoke simultaneously. Then Patricia continued alone. "All of my research will be ruined if she continues with this irresponsible behaviour."
"I agree that this sounds like a very serious challenge to our program. The Hellmouth-Sunnydale interface is unique opportunity for cutting edge Eldritch research." Janet stopped for a couple of seconds, staring at the enormous wrought iron chandelier suspended from a chain that protruded through the ceiling tiles. "Perhaps Doug...and, um, Crahthyon? Could the two of you investigate further? With your opposing viewpoints I trust the two of you to decide on a solution that will satisfy the entire department."
"Very well." Crachthyon sounded glum. "As the lone representative, rather almost the lone representative of evil I must agree. Although I'm not trained for this sort of work."
"Relax, big guy." Doug smiled. "I'll make sure the young lady doesn't hurt you."
"And now, for what has become our traditional closing topic." Janet stacked her papers into a neat pile in preparation for departure. "Have their been any new developments in the Spike/Slayer situation?"
"Janet I really don't see what this has to do with departmental business. Ever since the Initiative contaminated Spike with that technology," Anton grimaced as he said the 't' word, "he has not been part of anyone's research. In fact there was a motion made last year that he be surreptitiously 'sacrificed' before he disrupted any more of our studies. Only his close association with the Slayer and her companions prevented us from taking action."
"Oh come on. You can't deny the fascination. A vampire, evil in nature but prevented from acting on his impulses falls in love with his mortal enemy. She in turn appears to be no longer completely human." Patricia's hand played with her ebony bangs as she spoke.
"And then he takes off his shirt and you get your jollies Patricia." Anton grinned. "I don't see the eldritchness of the situation, except for the Slayer not being human which could be investigated through other means."
"It could lead to new insights into the nature of evil," Patricia replied.
"But it could be argued that Spike is no longer evil, honey." Mel's voice was sooth as slime. "I prefer to consider the situation as one of redemption."
Crachthyon cleared his throat, a sound reminiscent of canary songs slowly fading out with the onset of carbon monoxide poisoning. "Studying those that turn from the true path can teach us much about the ways of evil. You should read my paper on the effects of stochastic properties and dynamic equilibria on messianic apocalyptic trajectories."
"Math." Anton made yet another face. "I still think that this more to do with an appreciation of pecs and cheekbones than immoral equations."
Patricia merely smiled while Crachthyon's face turned the colour of a fine Burgundy wine slowly turning to vinegar in an ancient French abbey housing a nameless terror.
"I think the big guy's blushing."
"Nonsense, Doug. Evil blushes at nothing." Crachthyon's voice suddenly lost its luster and menace. "It's just hot in here."
"He is blushing!" Mel's voice was rich with delight.
"Who'd have thought it, eh?" Doug chuckled at Crachthyon's obvious discomfort. "The evil Crachthyon a prude? Or could it be?" The beautiful and terrible demon's face had turned the colour of the blood fungi of the Boureth hell dimension after a particularly disgusting meal. "I think it is." Doug's normally laconic tone was almost gleeful. "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
"Crachthyon's private life is his own business," Janet said firmly.
"Oh, I agree completely, Janet." Anton stared at the discomfited Crachthyon. "I'm just curious that a self-professed evil-thinker, if not an actual evil-doer, would be so reticent. I'd think that the love that dare not speak its name would fit in well with his world-view."
"Perhaps his is a more austere evil." Anton had given the second kitten a rough rendering of Crachthyon's features.
"Anyway I think that being gay is now included under Good nowadays." Patricia's tone was superior.
"I believe it is a matter of personal interpretation and thus morally relative." Janet made her voice as loud as possible without shouting. "If there is no..."
"Did someone mention moral relativity? I'm just in time." An attractive young woman with pale purple skin and two pupils in each eye breezed into the room.
"Annabelle you are almost an hour late," Janet responded. "If you must be tardy please do not interrupt."
"But she's the extension agent for Moral Ambiguity. Who better to fill us in on how Crachthyon's sexuality fits into the big picture." Doug pulled out the chair beside his and gestured for Annabelle to sit down.
"I think this conversation and the meeting will end now." Janet picked up her pile of papers. "THING could you strike the last exchange from the record? Ambiguity may be useful in the field but it has no place in a faculty meeting, unless you are trying to confuse the administration."
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[> [> Re: Stricken from the Record (2) -- Rendyl, 10:22:55 02/11/02 Mon
Color my day officially made. :)

Ren
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[> Re: In a past life... -- WW, 08:45:49 02/11/02 Mon
...I had to take minutes of Faculty of Science meetings at Simon Fraser University.

This first part gave me cold chill flashbacks!

;o)
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[> [> Re: In a past life... -- Brian, 10:57:59 02/11/02 Mon
Oh, Matching Mole, you made my day. You brought back all those silly faculty meetings I suffered through. Very real stuff, and very funny!
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[> [> I feel your pain -- matching mole, 11:00:00 02/12/02 Tue
Before our recent move my wife and I were part of an extremely disfunctional biology department. At the worst times faculty meetings were the thing most dreaded. The person I felt most sorry for was the department's administrator, a wonderful woman, who had to sit there silently writing down the most god awful stuff.
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[> "Hey. I'm Evil too,"--a parodic parallel -- anom, 18:37:09 02/11/02 Mon
This was sent to an email list for Jewish progressives. I was thinking of posting it here, & matching mole's marvelous missive gave me the perfect opening. (Can't wait to see the next installment, mm!) Sorry 'bout the forwarding formatting, but hope you enjoy.

> > ANGERED BY SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA SYRIA
FORM AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL
> >
> >
> > Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil.
> >
> > Other Nations Start Own Clubs.
> >
> > Beijing - Bitter after being snubbed for membership
> > in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had
> > formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler
> > than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of in
> his State of the Union address.
> >


> > Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as
> > having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right.
> > They are Just as Evil...in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader
Kim Jong-il.
> >
> > "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the
> best."
> >
> > Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded,
> > although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil.
> > "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
> > "An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi
> > President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World
> > War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can
only have three.
And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool."
> >
> > THE AXIS PANDEMIC
> >
> > International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift,
> > as within minutes, France surrendered.
> > Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in
> what became a game of geopolitical chairs.
> > Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil,
> > forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of
> Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established
> > the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable.
> >
> > With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs
> > filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called
the
> > Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to
Host
> > the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations
that
> > Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About
> > America.
> >
> > Meanwhile Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis
> > of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to wear Lipstick.
> > "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said
> > Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.
> >
> > While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps
> > making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axis,
> > although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries whose
> Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false
application.
> > Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges.
> > Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but
> > privately, world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.
> >
> > =====
> > James Longley

[don't know who he is or if he originated this, but the message I got it in had a link to http://www.littleredbutton.com (I went to the site but couldn't find anything related--it might be incompatible w/my Opera browser).
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[> [> OMG!! That's the best laugh I've had in weeks!! ;o) -- dubdub, 20:13:03 02/11/02 Mon
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[> [> The above is from The Onion www.theonion.com (VERY funny!) -- vandalia, 23:38:15 02/11/02 Mon
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[> [> [> Actually, it's from SatireWire.com (not quite as funny) -- d'Herblay, 00:38:25 02/12/02 Tue
Here's the original.
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Willow, Tara & crossing the line -- JCC, 15:03:55 02/10/02 Sun

I've heard a lot of people say that Willow croosed the line in "All the Way" when she cast the spell to make Tara forget the fight.Although I agree with that,maybe Tara's reaction was a bit hasty. Does anyone remember "Family" when Tara cast a spell that put the whole group in danger? Willow didn't even get angry. Maybe Tara should take a leaf from Willow's book.
Willow has been exploiting magic a lot, but can she be blamed. A lot of pressure was put on her in Season 5. Buffy telling her that she was the only one who could hurt Glory went to her head & the group kept expecting her to do spells for them. She also had to use her magic to save Tara after Glory brain sucked her.
Willow crossed the line in raising Buffy, but Xander, Anya and even Tara not only encouraged this, but helped out. Willow thought her friend was suffering in hell and felt she had no other choice.
After the encouragment she recieved from the group in S5, it was a big change for Will to have people she loves like Giles & Tara tell her she is an idiot for using so much magic....

Comments? Opinions?
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[> Re: Willow, Tara & crossing the line -- grifter, 15:39:15 02/10/02 Sun
The problem is that Tara cannot trust Willow anymore. Willow had to stop using magic, but how could Tara trust that she would? She had to fear that Willow would manipulate her brain so she wouldn´t know about Willo´w´s magic-usage. It took the combined shock of Tara leaving and Dawn nearly dying because of Willow to get her to realize how wrong her ways were.

And, apart from that, it´s not like Tara and Giles have only recently started to worry about Willow. Giles warned her as early as s1/ep3 that magic was dangerous. Tara was concerned with Willows progress in s5. Willow didn´t "cross the line" in a giant leap, but rather in small steps.

Tara did the exactly right thing in an "abusive" relationship as theirs: Go away.
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[> Re: Willow, Tara & crossing the line -- Cactus Watcher, 15:40:17 02/10/02 Sun
I think the general feeling is that Tara used her magic in 'Family' to hide something, but that Willow used her magic in 'All the Way' to win/avoid the argument with Tara over her use of magic. In both cases the object of the spell was to manipulate someone, so you have a point. But, I think it's pretty clear that Willow was more intent on changing Tara to her liking, where as Tara just wanted things to stay the way they were.
Willow pretty much was running the Scoobies to suit herself at the time they raised Buffy. Tara was certainly on her side, and all of them wanted Buffy back. But, it was largely Willow's decision to do the spell, despite the fact that the others particularly Xander had reservations.
It's interesting that fans are so loyal to Willow, that it's hard for many of them to see that some of the things that have been going on are her fault. There are plenty of things the other characters are to blame for, but Willow has her share.
Willow has shown flaws before. Remember how many times she accused Xander of having emotional problems in the first few seasons. In fact she was just showing her sadness and frustration over her own emotional problems. It looks like there is nothing wrong with magic. But, Willow is not in well enough in control of herself to use it with out risk.
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[> [> Re: Willow, Tara & crossing the line -- alcibiades, 18:36:07 02/10/02 Sun
It's been pointed out elsewhere that the kind of mindwipe that Willow did on Tara is quite similar to the kind of mindwipe that Warren did on Katrina. Don't like the opposition coming from your (ex) girlfriend, give her no option as to what to think. Willow does this not once but twice, the first time during a simple fight when such a reaction is completely OTT, the second time after Tara has told her if she doesn't change her act viz magic, Tara will leave her. Willow doesn't want to change, doesn't want to consider that she is in the wrong, so she attempts to wipe the burgeoning thought from Tara's mind that she might leave, because she wants Tara to love her as she is. And if that includes taking Tara's free will away from her, that is fine with her at this point. She doesn't stop to consider even to brood about the right or wrong of it. She just acts.

It's not unlike Katrina telling Warren, you make me want to vomit, and him saying, are you sure about that, then zapping her, and her next words are, I love you, Master.

The parallel to Tara and her demon spell, I believe, is Buffy. Tara throws up a demon hiding spell so the SG won't see her true face, her part demon aspect.

Buffy in Season 6 has been hiding in the shadows, because she doesn't want her friends to see her. Buffy even tells Tara, The way they would look at me... I couldn't. That's more or less what Tara was afraid of in Family as well. The way they would look at her, the rejection.

Xander in Gone has told Buffy point blank that anyone who wants Spike would have to be a loser or certifiably insane. In Restless when Buffy is supposed to be looking for her friends, she puts on a mask, and Riley tells her now you are on your own.

alcibiades
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[> [> Re: Willow, Tara & crossing the line -- Shabidoo, 03:01:13 02/11/02 Mon
In regard to Willow being more culpable than the others in raising Buffy, let's not forget her sparkly "Boss of Us" plaque. The others had put trust in Willow to lead them responsibly. Although, the Scoobies, including Tara, are to blame for trusting her blindly and for unnecessarily selecting an unproven leader when Giles was already on hand.
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[> Re: Willow, Tara & crossing the line (Spoilers) -- Robert, 23:26:21 02/10/02 Sun
"I've heard a lot of people say that Willow croosed the line in "All the Way" when she cast the spell to make Tara forget the fight.Although I agree with that,maybe Tara's reaction was a bit hasty. Does anyone remember "Family" when Tara cast a spell that put the whole group in danger?"

There are a couple subtle but important differences. Tara took full responsibility for her act and did not offer excuses. She agreed to leave as repentance. This coupled with the known extenuating circumstances provided the gang with sufficient evidence that Tara could be trusted.

Tara performed her spell in response to the threat of losing her dear friends (through discovery of her being a demon). Willow performed her spells because she was losing control. She was fixing her spell mistakes with more spell mistakes. The result is that Tara knows she cannot trust Willow.

The damage is compounded by Tara's terror of losing her mind. In "Blood Ties", Tara was most terrified by the prospect of being mind-sucked. In "Once More With Feeling", she sang about how hurt she was to be so manipulated after having been mind-sucked.

Please note, that Tara did not condem Willow and that there is possibility of reconciliation. Willow must prove that she can again be trusted before such can occur. We saw the beginnings of reconciliation in "Dead Things".
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on the subject of hair -- vampire hunter D, 18:48:51 02/10/02 Sun

Ever notice how everyone always has perfect hair? No matter how wild the sex, or violent the fight, Buffy never has a hair out of place. Spike I could understand, with all the gel, but why isn't Buffy's hair ever mussed? It not only her. All the girls can wake up and have perfect hair after being in bed for hours (one scene that comes to mind is when buffy gets out of bet and goes into Dawn's room. Both have perfectly brushed hair despite sleeping on it). NOw, I don't know how it is for any of you, but when I had long hair it was a real mess when I got out of bed.

Has anyone else noticed this? m I beeing to nit-picky?
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[> Re: on the subject of hair -- Apophis, 20:12:39 02/10/02 Sun
Due to the fact that there is no such town as Sunnydale, California, we can assume that BTVS takes place in an alternate universe. If this is the case, then it's safe to assume that this universe opperates under different laws of nature. One of those laws apparently states that the hair of females is unaffected by non-deliberate alteration. See? There's always a logical explanation for everything.
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[> [> Re: on the subject of hair -- Grace, 20:16:59 02/10/02 Sun
Re-run on FX not too long ago where Buffy wakes up with her hair kinda messed up(knotted in the front). She is embarassed b/c Angel is there but it is smoothed down with the brush of a hand.

It is an attempt at realism at least!.
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[> [> [> The Prom -- Cactus Watcher, 06:11:16 02/11/02 Mon
It was on broadcast TV recently, too. ;o) Amazing how after a wipe of her hand and it was all back in place.
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[> Hair and change -- Caroline, 20:20:52 02/10/02 Sun
Hold on. Remember back in season 1, Buffy was meeting Angel at the Bronze but came up against beasties on patrol and did have messy hair with straw in it - which I think Cordy commented on? And you gotta admit that Buffy's hair looked pretty scraggly coming out of the grave in Bargaining. And in her 'Life's a Show' scene in Once More with Feeling, her hair got onto her face and she had to flick it away! And I don't know if you noticed in that first scene in Dead Things, Buffy's hair (shock, horror) WAS NOT FLICKING ALL THE SAME WAY!!!!!!

Now there must be some correlation to her emotional state in all of this:

Mussy hair in season 1 - jealous of Cordy for moving in on Angel.

Mussy hair in Bargaining - torn out of heaven, crawled out of the grave.

Mussy hair in OMWF - offered herself as replacement to go to hell (kinda like suicide, hmmm?)

Mussy hair in Dead Things - boinking a vamp!! Oh the huge moral quandary!

I'm sure other board members will think of many more deeply significant correlations. But what I find most significant is the fact that Buffy CUT HER HAIR!!! You know that a woman only does that when she is contemplating a major change in her life. There's definitely foreshadowing here.
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[> [> If you have long hair (OT) -- verdantheart, 07:40:35 02/11/02 Mon
My hair is below my waist. I find that sleeping with it in a ponytail really reduces the tangling. (A nightcap is ideal, but a real turn-off, apparently.) I highly recommend a ponytail and a good supply of detangler.

It's interesting how many compliments you get if you have long, shiny hair (particularly at my age). Most of the compliments come from women, but I think most men are a little shy about complimenting a woman lest the compliment be taken the wrong way.
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[> [> [> Re: If you have long hair (OT) -- Rendyl, 10:10:25 02/11/02 Mon
You have my admiration...or maybe my sympathies? (grin)

About the time mine is long enough to accidently sit on I seem to be overtaken by this psychotic frenzy of 'oh gawd I am nothing but hair!' and 'aghhh, I look like cousin IT', which leads to whacking it off or having it whacked off. Then I return to normal.

I can't sleep in a ponytail but sleeping in a braid seems to keep it untangled. I also found this great de-tangling brush that my daughter and I use. Snarls that I would normally say were impossible to get out come out in a few brush strokes.

Ren
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[> [> [> [> You must have thicker hair than I do ... -- verdantheart, 13:44:21 02/11/02 Mon
Mine is fine and straight, straight, straight.
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[> [> [> [> [> Bottom Line - Men like long hair on women -- Brian, 03:16:58 02/13/02 Wed
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[> Zevon speaks... -- OnM, 21:16:09 02/10/02 Sun
I saw a werewolf with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Soho in the rain
He was looking for a place called Lee Ho Fook's
Going to get himself a big dish of beef chow mein
Werewolves of London

If you hear him howling around your kitchen door
Better not let him in
Little old lady got mutilated late last night
Werewolves of London again
Werewolves of London

He's the hairy-handed gent who ran amuck in Kent
Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair
Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor
Werewolves of London

Well, I saw Lon Chaney walking with the Queen
Doing the Werewolves of London
I saw Lon Chaney, Jr. walking with the Queen
Doing the Werewolves of London
I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's
His hair was perfect
Werewolves of London
Draw blood

............ Warren Zevon


*******

So there ya have it. It's metaphysical!

;)
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[> Re: on the subject of hair -- skeeve, 10:09:55 02/12/02 Tue
In Buffy's case it might be that her supernatural healing ability includes her hair.

Also, in I Robot, You Jane, Buffy had an electrifying experience. Buffy askd her friends to be honest: "How's my hair?" Just fine, they lied.
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Faith and Hedorah (the Smog Monster): Monsters in the same mold? -- Goji3, 19:20:37 02/10/02 Sun

Crazy...it just hit me...

I was reading the thing on whether Faith is evil or not and it struck me like a bolt of lighting.

Everyone says Faith's reasons for turning bad was because of her bad childhood, but that alone did not cause her to turn evil. Neglect did. The scoobies never really reached out to her, and she really needed it. Almost everytime I see her on the show I only think of one thing... "Awww...she needs a hug". They helped 'Create' her as she is today (yet, they don't seem to aknowledge that for the mostpart). to quote Lisa Simpson (on Bart's missbehavior) "...That little hellraiser is the spawn of every shrieking comercial, every brain rotting soda-pop, every teacher who cares less about young minds then about cashing their big, fat paychecks. No, Bart's not a monster...You can't create a monster and then whine when he stomps on a few buildings". (Plus, she had a few lose screws to begin with).

Faith is the product of neglect....Just like Hedorah: the smog monster. Born out of the filth of our waste and the neglect of it, it rises up to remind us of our mistakes and their deadly consequences. Faith, unfortunately, didn't get her message out to the scoobs. for they continued to neglect her. it should be noted that this view is supported (for the mostpart)in the "Monster Book" but is not mentioned on this site(!).

Well, another Monster-type down...very few left to go...(I'm waiting for an 'unstoppable force of nature'-type monster...but I doubt we'll see it...budgetary reasons and so forth)
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[> Re: Faith and Hedorah (the Smog Monster): Monsters in the same mold? -- Scroll, 09:33:08 02/11/02 Mon
That's an excellent comparison of Faith and Bart and Hedorah the Smog Monster (though I have no idea who Hedorah is). I'm a Faith-sympathiser so while I certainly still hold her responsible for all the evil things she did, I think Buffy and especially Giles had a hand in the way she turned out. If we assume Faith was called at age 15 like Buffy was, she would've only been 15 when her Watcher was killed and she arrived in Sunnydale on the run. I don't know what Watcher policy is on meeting the needs of Slayers but I doubt Giles would've let Dawn at age 15 stay at a dingy motel the way Faith was. How in the world did Faith pay for rent and food? Definite neglect there.
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[> So, if Faith goes bad again sho