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Tonight's Angel and Spoilers for Trailer -- JM, 20:00:16 02/05/03 Wed

No one's commenting.

Just to get the ball rolling. Awesome ep.

Was worried about being disappointed, so much Angelus hype. We really haven't seen the real thing in almost five years. But he's back, and he brought the goods. And he shows just how intelligent and sensitive Angel is. How much he notices, sees, and hears. He really got under Gunn and Fred's skin very effectively. Connor and Cordy impressed him. And damn does he know Wesley. He's known him the longest of anyone but Cordy, and he pushes every button. And it has the effect he expects. Wes holds it together in front of Angelus, but he almost completely looses control once he's back upstairs. Angelus and Fred bring out the very lowest and pettiest in his character. What fun. Please don't die.

[> Re: Tonight's Angel and Spoilers for Trailer -- Belladonna, 20:11:09 02/05/03 Wed

I agree with all you've said. I kept looking at the clock saying, "damn! There's only 10 minutes left!" I really didn't want it to end. I knew Angelus wouldn't disappoint. Angelus is the sneakiest, smartest villain ever to hit buffyverse (of course, I just started watching Angel towards the end of last season, so I guess I can't say that conclusively). Ooh...I do not know how I'm going to wait till next week!

[> My, how our boy has grown! Spoilers for new Angel. -- Darby, 20:17:06 02/05/03 Wed

Just compare the Angelus of Acathla fame to Angelus tonight - David has gotten so much better at inhabiting this creature! Charming yet charmless, clever yet clueless, layer upon layer. How many emotions played in that smile when Connor called him his "real Dad?" And yet, while we saw Connor playing Angelus (there's a shoe yet to drop there, no doubt), Angelus just saw how it might play for him.

Not as unique a creation as Anthony Hopkins' Hannibal Lecter (anyone fearing a poor retread should be disappointed), but much more human, and creepy in a totally different way. Carried the entire episode.

Very, very impressive.

[> Half way through watching the tape (Spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Rahael, 20:20:03 02/05/03 Wed

Went out for dinner. Just watching the ep. dHerb is having a cigarette break and I just came online to say

I love this ep!!

I am so the fan girl right now.

(There should be a play --- Love it!)

And can I say, DB's acting has improved by tons. I love this Angelus so much more.


[> Re: Tonight's Angel and Spoilers for Trailer (More spoilers) -- Isabel, 20:32:43 02/05/03 Wed

Oh please. DB does Angelus well. I loathe the character, but he grabs my attention while he makes my skin crawl.

"They should write a play about it..." I was snorting with laughter.

I was amazed at how much everyone didn't know what was going on. Do you think he was right about Fred? She didn't deck Wes. Othello and Desdemona indeed. With Angelus as Iago. The difference with the play was Iago was someone Othello trusted, Angelus should be trusted by no one.

And am I the only one who thinks Connor did it? Demonspawn WANTS to kill Daddy.

[> [> Hey Rahael! -- Isabel, 20:39:37 02/05/03 Wed

Posted about the same quote within seconds of each other. Psyche! I'd say "Great minds think alike" but you're the great mind. I'm not in your league.

But in a good way. :)

[> [> [> Re: Hey Isabel! -- Rahael, 22:19:54 02/05/03 Wed

You're making me blush! Leagues? Great Minds? You're just a dark horse what with the quiet long term lurking and the occasional, always insightful posts.

Always look forward to them.

[> [> [> [> Hey Rah -- Angela, 05:20:19 02/06/03 Thu

Did you catch the Yeats quote?

Warning: not a happy light ditty.

I thought my dear must her own soul destroy,
So did fanaticism and hate enslave it,
And this brought forth a dream and soon enough
This dream itself had all my thought and love.

And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea;
Heart-mysteries there, and yet when all is said
It was the dream itself enchanted me:
Players and painted stage took all my love,
And not those things that they were emblems of.

Those masterful images because complete
Grew in pure mind, but out of what began?
A mound of refuse or the sweepings of a street,
Old kettles, old bottles, and a broken can,

Old iron, old bones, old rags, that raving slut
Who keeps the till. Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start,
In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart.
--William Butler Yeats

Not light.

There's also a book by Robt Cormier:
Robert Cormier's final novel, THE RAG AND BONE SHOP, takes its name from a line in a poem by William Butler Yeats --- "I must lie down where all the ladders start/In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart." In this novel, Cormier explores the lengths to which a person might go. In the end, both of the book's main characters discover they have gone too far. THE RAG AND BONE SHOP by Robert Cormier

[> [> [> [> [> Thank you! I couldn't remember where I'd heard the phrase before -- ponygirl, 07:30:53 02/06/03 Thu

Oh my, lots of resonances for both AtS and BtVS characters in that poem. Very interesting.

[> [> [> [> [> well spotted! -- Rahael, 10:19:26 02/06/03 Thu

I didn't!

Mainly cos I'm not all that familiar with all but a handful of poems by Yeats.

Even more food for thought

[> [> Oh . . . Wes as Cassio . . . never mind -- d'Herblay, 21:09:50 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> Drat, could someone refresh my addled brain... Cassio? -- Solitude1056, 21:25:12 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> They make watches, don't they? -- d'Herblay, 21:46:34 02/05/03 Wed

Cassio was the lieutenant of Othello promoted above his "ancient," Iago. Iago then manipulated Othello into believing that Cassio and Desdemona were making the beast with two backs (a phrase which actually originates in the play, though it is used by Desdemona's father Brabantio to describe her union with the Moor; can you tell I played the Duke of Venice one summer in college?). There's a handkerchief involved.

Somewhere deep in this thread, I did the whole Othello comparison thing. It made my head hurt -- almost as much as "Awakening," but not in such a nice way.

[> Small nice little touch (Spoilers for "Soulless") -- d'Herblay, 21:32:43 02/05/03 Wed

After a seafood dinner (mahi mahi in Cleveland in February . . . makes the mind boggle, though luckily not the stomach, which was quite pleased and unboggled), and after Rah had completed a little surfing and I had gotten my fill of the UNC-Duke showdown (I am genetically determined to be a Blue Devils supporter, but damn it looked like the Tar Heels had their number), we began to watch "Soulless." I have a good memory for maps, and right away I key on the map of Versailles that hides the safe door. I quickly back the tape up and pause, grabbing a Dorling Kindersley Eyewitness Guide to France (known in some circles as the "Junior Woodchuck Manual") to make sure I know what the hell I am talking about before coming here. Map checks out.

"It's Versailles, all right," I say. "But why would Angel have a map of Versailles in his office?"

"Oh!" said Rahael. "It's like the Ra-Tet. All this arc we've had mounds of sun symbolism. Blotting out the sun, Angel's soul now a shiny, fiery globe. And who built Versailles?"

"Louis XIV. The Sun King."

"Exactly! And as Versailles held the Sun King, now its schematic holds the representation (Angel's soul) of and the only hope for restoring the sun itself."

"Well, yeah, that's obvious," I pretended. "But I'm not so concerned with these blatant thematic resonances so much as I am with a pragmatic, narrative reasoning for Angel's choice."

Anyway, I pressed play, and was blown away, of course. But during an aforementioned midway break for a cigarette and a quick check to make sure that the school whereat my parents met did indeed kick some state-school bootie, I started wondering if it had been Wesley, during the interregnum, who had redecorated and installed the plan of Versailles. He's no more logical a choice than Angel (though, unlike Angelus, he was around the continent sometime after the invention of the Eurorail pass), but I didn't want to eliminate any possibilities.

Then it struck me: Hyperion Hotel. An establishment named for a sun god might decorate with reminders of a Sun King. Problem solved, and I can sleep easy tonight. (Eventually, 'shippers.)

Not too deep a realization (go to Rah for the deep analysis), but a nice recognition on my part that the Powers That Be Producing Angel have not just a masterful control of the big pictures, but the small strokes too.

[> [> Gah!! D'H and Rah!! You cant be Dookie Fans!! -- neaux, 04:19:47 02/06/03 Thu

Duke is the epitomy of everything vile and demonic in the NCAA world. Hell, they are BLUE DEVILS!!!!

Walk towards the light! Walk towards the light! Light Blue that is. Carolina, is the home of all that is holy!
And may I say if You guys lives in these parts, you would be Carolina Fans.

I might make residence in Durham but my heart is always 10 miles away in Chapel Hill!!

[> [> The Sun King (Spoilers for Souless) -- Rahael, 10:40:28 02/06/03 Thu

Just a quick additional point. I haven't seen Long Day's Journey yet (scheduled for this afternoon!) but now we've had two patriarchal, kingly images associated with the Sun.

Themes of Family, Patriarchy and 'Daddy' seem rife this season. Gunn putting Fred on a pedestal. They both conspired to kill a paternalistic father figure for Fred, her professor. Guilty children committing patricide. The fates will make them pay. There should be a play.

Wesley and his father issues. And Would be King of all, Angelus/Angel. But his authority is resented by Wes, by Connor. (Does anyone call you a 'Champion'? - Angel did actually call Wes a Champion. In his fantasy. Which only Angelus knows about).

More later.

Oh, and the whole episode kept getting punctuated by images of the sun blotted out, and the shiny orb of light that was Angel's extracted soul. Night falls on AI. The natural order is inverted. Daddy is powerless and the children are fighting.

Kicking off the "Soulless" discussion (spoilers for Angel 4.11) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:08:03 02/05/03 Wed

This was a pretty good episode. We got to see Angelus doing what the writers originally intended him to do: exploit emotional weaknesses among those Angel cared about. It also gave us some answers and some questions. I'll divide my comments into these two categories:


1) So the Beast wanted Angelus in order to kill some priestesses that stood to banish him? Well, it's kind of a let down, given the ominous buildup in 4.9 - 4.10. (On another note, the scenery for the flashback seemed to be noticeably less in quality. It just looked more like something you'd find in a play, rather than a TV show that gets over a million dollars to make each episode.)

2) We find out there is a way to banish the Beast (hello Achilles Heel). However, it seems to be reversible, and the priestesses who could perform it are dead (so apparently that mojo wasn't in the will).

3) Wesley and Fred kissed, so it isn't just Wes, apparently.. Given that, and what Wesley said during the argument, in the future I may tend to take Gunn's side (although the property thing lost him some points).


1) Obviously, what happened to Angel's soul, and how did Angelus know about it?

2) It still remains, what is the Beast?

3) Another recurring question: why doesn't Angel remember him?

4) Yet another recurring question, but one I find a little more interesting: who is Angel, really? Is Angelus his core personality, and the soul is just a metaphysical coating (as Connor said)? Or is the soul the core personality of Angel, and Angelus is just a sick, demonic infection (as Cordelia said)? My personal theory is it's neither. Angel doesn't have a core personality that can be labelled soul or demon. At his core, there is a weird fusion of the two. Angel feels guilt for what Angelus did because his soul can never fully dilute the demon. And Angelus feels disgust for what Angel felt, because he was a part of Angel, forced to feel the same empathy and love. Of course, this is all just my theory.

5) If the priestess thing had worked, and they had banished the Beast, would Cordelia have given herself over to Angelus? On the one hand, I don't feel she has any obligation to keep such a promise. Also, once Angelus became Angel again, the guilt over killing and raping Cordelia might drive him insane. On the other hand, in "Deep Down" we saw that Angel has gotten very good at knowing when the truth is being told (it sounds less nasally). Presumably, Angelus would have the same talent, perhaps even increased due to the fact that Angel's judgement of such matters is sometimes influenced by what he wants to hear, while Angelus would not be so inclined. Thus, when Cordelia made Angelus that offer, she had to either be a really excellent liar (which I admit is a possibility) or she sincerely meant it. If she was secretly plotting not to follow through with the bargain, it's very likely Angelus would have known.

6) Now, this one is a continuity gaffe, which I don't ususally like to bring up, but how did Angelus not only get out of the straps and bed, but get the bed out of the cell?

Also, I couldn't resist, RANDOM COMMENTS

Some very direct references are made to Seasons Two and Three of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angelus mentioned Wesley's failure with Faith, and he all but said Buffy's name when talking about "that Slayer" and his havoc in Sunnydale. I found this worth mentioning considering that so far this season of Angel has reference other episodes of BtVS, more than usual. These include: Becoming II, Graduation Day, and Helpless.

Connor's mention that Angelus was his real father was unnerving. And, was it just me, or was Angelus taken back by that. I'm not saying Angelus loves the kid, but I think he was honestly surprised and perhaps, for one of the few times in his unlife, a little conflicted. Angel saw a lot of himself in Connor, maybe Angelus does the same. I also thought that Angelus seemed to have the least amount of sarcastic retort for Connor. He and Cordelia were the only ones that really seemed in control when around Angel.

I also felt that it was too bad that Angel never found out about the murder of Professor Seidel. It's one less piece of ammo for Angelus.

The beginning, where we see the news paper saying "Crime Wave Shuts Down City" seemed a little tacky. I don't know why, although it was needed information. And I do like the idea that Los Angeles has descended into chaos.

Lastly, where they would normally show the show's name, "Angel", during the commercials, it now reads "Angelus". I felt this was a very nifty touch. And they really do seem to be advertising the Angelus thing a lot. Currently my AOL has an add pop up advertising Angelus's appearance on Angel, along with time slot. If it weren't for the artistic promo for "Killer In Me", I'd have said that WB won the bidding war for great promo designers, while UPN ended up having to make do with the trash that nobody else wanted to bet on.

[> Could you clarify something, please? -- Belladonna, 20:19:38 02/05/03 Wed

I too was intrigued by the references to BtVS in tonight's ep. But when else did AtS mention BtVS? Becoming II - I assume you mean when Angel said Buffy's name in last week's ep. But what about Helpless and Graduation Day? I'm sorry, but sometimes I have the worst memory! :)

[> [> "Slouching Towards Bethelhem" (or however you spell that) and "Spin the Bottle". -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:32:03 02/05/03 Wed

Cordelia looked at her high school yearbook in "Slouching Towards Bethelhem", which had messages about "thanks for the arrows" or "too bad about the snake" in it.

Then there's "Spin the Bottle", where Wesley refers to the Crucianitum test that was used in "Helpless"; he even says the world "Slayer".

[> [> [> Ah yes...it's all coming back to me now! Thanks! -- Belladonna, 20:42:16 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> And, this may be a little too far back, but last year... -- Rob, 23:03:21 02/05/03 Wed

The episode entitled "The Price," Cordy made a small comment about that time it snowed in Sunnydale, obviously a reference to "Amends," which, coincidence much (or not?!?) was the lead-in to the entire story arc on "Buffy" this year.


[> LA in Darkness as a Metaphor for Angel/us (spoilers for "Soulless") -- Rob, 21:17:08 02/05/03 Wed

"Soulless" is my favorite "Angel" ep of the year so far. All of the actors were so on their game tonight, and the writing just nailed all the emotional depth and manipulation that was needed. And I loved that Angelus did in fact witness Angel's whole fantasy last week. It makes it so much more meaningful, and his laughter at the end of LDJ even more understandable.

About your question: "Now, this one is a continuity gaffe, which I don't ususally like to bring up, but how did Angelus not only get out of the straps and bed, but get the bed out of the cell?

Not necessarily so. We saw Wes dope Angelus up with those fun darts full of Oz-type levels of tranquilizer when he attacked Fred. I'm sure they also did that to unrestrain him.

Everything else, I agree with you, especially regarding the great questions regarding who is Angel. Finally, this stuff is being addressed and I couldn't be happier. I see LA in darkness as being the perfect symbol for the whole situation. Darkness in a way is what is the most "real" thing in the world. In order for there to be light, an external force (could be the sun to light up the whole earth, could just be a lamp in a dark room) must be added. Same thing with Angel. Angelus is the primary being, no doubt about it. Connor is very perceptive. An external force, the gypsies, had to restore his soul in order for Angel to be created. But does the addition of the sun make the daytime any less "natural"? And does the addition of the soul make Angel just a "costume" Angelus is forced to wear to suppress his real nature? I think the most important point, that Angel keeps trying to ignore is that he is Angelus just as much as the sunny city of L.A. is really a haven for demons whose darkness happens to be suppressed (but not totally banished) in daylight hours.


[> [> Continued... -- Rob, 21:21:49 02/05/03 Wed

Forgot to wrap up my point, being that...

Both LA and Angel are now stripped of their respective external forces of light. In fact, LA has been stripped of 2 sources of light: the literal one, the sun, and now, of Angel, its defender, as well.


[> Who is Angel? Who is Angelus? Who is Cordelia..(Spoilers Ats 4.11) -- shadowkat, 21:44:03 02/05/03 Wed

First off - excellent post, Finn. You bring up some very good points and I pretty much agree with most of what you said.

Now onto the meaty stuff. It's interesting to me how both shows are metanarrating on Season 2 Btvs and discussing identity. They are doing it in different ways - one more externally and far more intensely, while the other seems to be more internal and less dark.

But the fact that both shows are addressing who we are and how we're connected to one another and how what we do affects everyone in some way - fascinates me.

Angelus' torture of Wes, Gunn, Cordy, Fred, and Connor - does not just affect the person sitting opposite him - it affects the connections between all of them. It's their connections to each other Angelus cleverly tries to fray.
And he almost succeeds - quicker than he expected. It's an interesting contrast to Angel - who fears fraying these connections who does not want to be alone.

Angel - wants desperately to become a part of the world again, but can't. He wants to be human. He loves being Champion because it makes him part of that world. His dream is about being connected to people. To Fred, To Wes, To Cordelia, to Connor, and to Gunn. He also ignores the love triangle between F/W/G because he wants to maintain those connections. His nightmare in Deep Down is all about losing them. His dream in Awakenings is all about keeping them.

Angelus - also wants it. But he is all about rage. He reminds me a lot of Connor who angerily insists on doing things alone without a team, no family, no connections.
Except Connor realizes twice in this episode how untrue that really is: 1) in the beginning where he can't defeat all the vamps by himself and 2) with his surrogate parents, uncle Wes and aunt/mom Cordy who find the decimated family, Connor can't quite deal with the fact that it is a family that has been decimated. And on Daddy's birthday or just day's before. Connor throws up. Sickened. When Cordy asks why. He says one word. Family. Back to Angelus - he says one thing in the bit with the Beast that sparked my interest, a very simple thing but I believe the key to understanding the connection between Angelus and Angel.

He turned the Beast down because he hates working with people hates teamwork. When the Beast found him? He was alone.

Angelus...he kills families. He hates teamwork. He builds his own sick twisted families only to betray them later. He loves no one. He pushes everyone away from him. And back in Season 2 Btvs he wanted to suck the world into hell. Have you ever asked yourself why? It's so simple when you think about it. Not really all that insane at all. Makes perfect sense. The world has rejected Angelus, so Angelus rejects the world - he sends it to hell. Daddy wouldn't accept him?
Screw him. I'll send him to hell. I'll kill him and all his seed. Rage. Pure rage. And rage burns. It decimates everything in its path like the Beast does come to think of it. Hate does the same thing. And Angelus hates everything and everyone that he couldn't have or rejected him or tried to connect him to a humanity, he could never be connected to. Angelus is Angel's rage unleashed, unbound. And Angel has a lot of rage inside.

Who is the true entity? Both - I think. They are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - flip sides of a multifaceted coin. If you watch closely you see elements of each. And I agree with those who posted below - Boreanze is finally showing some acting muscel. His face in the scenes with FRed, Gunn, Wes, Cordelia, and Connor - showed that. His feelings for these guys are complex. With Connor - he was taken aback by Connor's comment that Angelus is his father and Angel is just a coating...then you saw him consider how he might use that. Because Angelus knows something Connor doesn't - which is that the soul is not just a coating...it's a connection and means of feeling and emphasizing with others, it keeps the demon at bay..partly because the guilt overwhelms the rage? Cordelia quotes Giles stating that Angel is the real entity and Angelus just and infection. Yet that's not completely true either - as we've seen with Spike (possibly why some fans can't handle the character..but look deeper, isn't it more interesting if Angelus isn't just an infection but actually part of Angel?)
Unless of course you consider rage and fury and hate infections?

The Killer in Me was the title of Tues Btvs episode. Tonight's episode is Soulless. Interesting parallel.

The Killer in Angel is Angelus - who always lurks behind Angel's mask. He's always there. He is a part of Angel.
He was a part of Angel before he became a vampire. As Darla stated ages ago in Dear Boy - what we cared about and who we were as humans informs who we are as vampires. No matter how much Angel has changed, at heart? He is still Liam who desires his father's approval and acceptance and acts the prodigal rebellious nasty teen when he doesn't get it.
He is more like Connor than Connor knows. I think Angelus may know how alike they are - I think I saw it in Angelus' eyes as he sought ways to torment Connor. Connor creeps out Angelus - because in Connor he is faced with who he could have been.

He hates what he is. He hates those who rejected him. And he wants to destroy everything he hates. That is rage. That is the infection in him - and that parallels the Beast.
Until Angel can let go of the anger, the hate, the desire to destroy that which he can't have and can forgive himself for not being that which he desires - Angelus will always infect him and he will always require a curse to live ensouled.

Just my opinion of course. ;-)

2. Cordelia. Okay I'm now convinced Cordy is the sleeper.
I think she stole the soul. I think she wasn't lying to Angel. And I think Angelus was talking about something more than thighs when he mentioned the "twins" - just a hunch.

Cordy in some ways has the same problems Angel does. She makes a fantastic romantic foil for him. Because they have the same fatal flaws. Desperately wanting to be champions, to be part of the group, but at the same time not quite makeing it. Their vanity and pride leads them astray, they both fall into the same tempting traps - "look at me, I'm the hero! I'm the saint! I've ascended!" Without ever questioning why or how or if. And they are both furious that they keep getting what they want ripped from them. That they have to fight for things.

Watching old Btvs episodes before Ats is always interesting.
Tonights had Wes and Cordy involved. And Cordy wondering what the heck Buffy saw in Angel. And Wes arguing that Buffy shouldn't save Angel. I was laughing my head off.
It was sooo ironic. (It also occurred to me that thanks to Buffy, Wes' life is completely different now. Probably wishes he staked good old Angel pie when he had the chance.)
At any rate it made me realize how far Wes and Cordelia have come together.

Cordelia is no longer a whiny/yappy teen. She's grown up.
And she's accepted the fact that she can't have what she wants. There's sacrifices. But deep down inside she's still that yappy, sarcastic cheerleader who wants desperately to belong, to be popular and to be important. It's the cheerleader that is getting her into trouble now and it may in fact be the cheerleader that saves her in the end. Assuming of course this is Cordelia and not a replacement of some sort. In which case maybe we need Cordy to break out of her mystical prison and come to earth and kill the evil doppleganger?

I'm wondering what Angelus knows - he mentions to Wes, offhand, "you're digging in the wrong place" - and he got great delight out of Cordy turning off the monitor.
Does he know what she is or what's going on with her? Is he grooving to it?

Finally - I wouldn't assume just yet that Angelus doesn't know about Seidel. And if he doesn't? We know he can hear most of what they say above...so who wants to guess how long it is until he finds out? No even if he knew...he had much better ammunition with the triangle and he clearly sensed the same thing Angel did in Angel's dream - Fred is falling for Wes and doesn't want to.

Who wants to lay odds that Gunn or Fred don't last the year?
(Not spoiled - just speculating)

Again great post.


[> [> Speaking of s2 Buffy... -- Rob, 21:46:16 02/05/03 Wed

How great was that continuity, mentioning the dreaded puppy-nailing incident the gang discovered in research in "Passion," I believe it was.


[> [> [> Re: Speaking of s2 Buffy... -- s'kat, 22:00:29 02/05/03 Wed

Yep - I noticed that too.

Continuity metanarration:

1. Puppy nailing

2. Faith - she was a peach - response I'm sure to Enemies, Season 3 when Angel pretended to be Angelus and Buffy realized for the first time how close these two were.
Also on Sancturary and Five By Five - which Angelus refers to - to torture Wes.

3. Buffy - she's a pistol - reference to Becoming? Or other episodes?

4. Cordy - "yappy" bwahhha!!! which he mentions in regards to Cordy in previous seasons

[> [> [> [> Regarding BtVS S3 Wesley and Faith (spoilers AtS 4.11) -- Ixchel, 23:19:20 02/05/03 Wed

I thought Angelus brought up Faith to point out Wesley's failure with her in S3 (Consequences). I always thought from that episode that Faith was on the edge and Angel was pulling her back, when Wesley pushed her over (or helped her jump, whichever). Not intentionally, but maybe he's realized that now and that's why Angelus wanted to twist the knife there. JMHO, of course.


[> [> [> Re: Speaking of s2 Buffy... -- Q, 22:50:14 02/05/03 Wed

I think the puppy love came up in B, B, & B. Should we wager and run to our DVD's to find out?

God, I'm a nerd.

[> [> [> [> Touche! You win! -- Rob, 22:55:57 02/05/03 Wed

Original shooting script BB&B:


Buffy is with Giles, going over further Watcher diaries.

Ah, here's another. Valentine's
Day, yes, Angel nails a puppy to -

Skip it.

But -

I don't want to know. I don't have a
puppy. We can skip it.

Right. Let me get the next batch.


Buffy is with Giles, going over further Watcher diaries.

Ah, here's another. Valentine's
Day, yes, Angel nails a puppy to -

Skip it.

But -

I don't want to know. I don't have a
puppy. We can skip it.


[> [> [> [> [> Oops! Pressed "paste" twice. I guess that's just how right you are. ;o) -- Rob, 22:57:06 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Who is Angel? Who is Angelus? Who is Cordelia..(Spoilers Ats 4.11) -- Yoda, 07:53:31 02/06/03 Thu

"Angelus is Angel's rage unleashed, unbound. And Angel has a lot of rage inside. Who is the true entity? Both - I think. They are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - flip sides of a multifaceted coin."

Wonderfully put S'Kat. I think that was the point to both The Killer in Me and Souless.

IMO when Willow changed into Warren that was all Willow. It was all her rage and pain coming out into the open. I also think that Dark Magic Willow and just Willow are one and the same. Just as Angel and Angelous are one and the same.

As Giles pointed out. We are who we are no matter how much we appear to have changed.

I think that the soul just allows Angel to keep a reign on those feelings of rage and pain. Without the soul all of his suppressed rage comes out. If Angel would stop denying that he and Angelous are separate beings he could begin to deal with all the pain and rage that makes Angelous possible.

I think that is why some Vampires appear to be more evil than others. Harmony didn't have any buried deep seated issues so she appears the same as a Vampire as she did as a human. Spike also doesn't seem to be all that different personality wise with a soul as without one.

[> [> [> Re: Who is Angel? Who is Angelus? Who is Cordelia..(Spoilers Ats 4.11) -- Dannyblue, 08:51:53 02/06/03 Thu

I think Angel/Angelus is as close to a split personality as any vamp in the Jossverse is likely to get.

For example, I don't think Spike hated William. He just thought he was pathetic, and did everything he could to not be seen as weak. And I don't think "William" (the soul) hates Spike. He's ashamed of the things he did while soulless. But there's no hate. He completely accepts who he was without a soul, never thinking of himself as seperate entities.

Well, Angelus *hates* Angel. Angel *hates* Angelus. They both hate each other so much, they prefer to think of themselves as seperate individuals. Neither accepts the other as a part of who they both are.

It reminds me of this case I heard of, about a woman with MPD. One of the personalities hated the other so much, she tried to push her into committing suicide. Of course, the angry personality would have died too, but the malicious personality could only think of getting rid of the other, too irrational to consider what would happen to "her" in the process.

That's how I see Angel/Angelus. Angel doesn't want to see the demon as truly a part of himself. Angelus hates every drop of humanity the soul makes him feel. Each talks about the other in the third person, accept for the occasional slip. (Angelus asks Connor, "Is that my shirt?" Angel says that, if they remove his soul, *he'll* be a danger to them all.)

I think Angel believes he's accepted Angelus as a part of him. He uses the demons strengths to fight evil. But, if you think about it, he actually sees the demon as a tool. I might use a hammer, but I don't see it as a part of who I am. It's a tool. At the most, an extension of my hand, but not part of *me*.

Can Angel ever truly accept Angelus as a part of who he is?

That would be the healthy way to go, but I doubt it.

[> [> [> [> Great post! -- Rob, 10:09:27 02/06/03 Thu

Since all these issues about whether Angel and Angelus are the same being, I predict (though I'm not spoiled) that by the end of this ordeal, Angel will have to finally acknowledge the truth.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Great post! -- Dannyblue, 11:12:44 02/06/03 Thu

I think Pylea might have answered the big question.

Is Angelus the demon, or another part of Angel?

Well, in Pylea, we saw the demon in its un-diluted form. It had no intelligence, no conscience. It was an animal acting on pure instinct. It had no personality to speak of. It was hardly capable of playing mind games with anyone. It killed because that was it's nature.

Pylea implies that Angelus is nothing Angel couldn't be...or couldn't have been, even if he wasn't turned. Humans can do some pretty terrible things too. And, from what we saw of Liam, he was headed for the dark side real quick.

Pylea suggests--to me, anyway--that, when a person becomes a vampire, they

1. Lose their soul, hence their conscience. They stop caring about right and wrong. They lose that "thing" most humans have telling them that hurting people is bad.

2. The demon gives them superior strength, speed, senses, etc. It changes them physically.

3. They acquire the demon's killer instinct.

That's all they get from being turned. The rest (what their personality is like, what they care about, what they hate, their intelligence) is all formed out of what they were as a human. They are the same person, without the leash of a soul, given physical powers beyond mortals. The demon gives them the instinct to hurt people, but it's the "human" aspect that determines how they will go about doing it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Great post! -- Freki, 12:39:42 02/06/03 Thu

One little quibble - Spike did say in NLM "I never hated myself before, not like I do now", so I don't think it's right to say that he doesn't hate himself. The key though, is he hates *himself*. Angel hates *Angelus*. I think you're right on the money about Angel's split personality. Rather than falling completely apart under the weight of guilt the way Spike did, he compartmentalized it into Angelus, and denied that it was really him.

It seemed very clear last week that Angel was not just worried about what might happen if Angelus got loose, he was terrified of becoming Angelus again. I think that's something he's going to have to deal with when he gets his soul back again.

It's going to be very interesting to see how his relationships with the gang change after his stint without a soul. Cordy saw everything about him when she was all glowy, so I don't think it will affect her much. It just confirms what Connor always thought, so it may not change things there, or it may be a further wedge. Wes had a pretty good idea about what to expect, but Angelus hit a few nerves with him. Fred is pretty tough-minded, so I think she'll deal with it okay. Gunn, though, has never completely trusted Angel, and this might be the final straw for him.

[> [> [> [> [> [> My view of the two -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:16:14 02/06/03 Thu

Neither soul nor demon is an actual entity. The demon is what we saw in Pylea. The soul, well, Angelus retains a personality without the soul, so the soul does not contain personality either. Our personalities are determined by our life experiences, with a little help from biology. Angel, Angelus, and Liam all retain the same body and same life experiences, so they all share the same personality. The soul/demon uses the personality as a prism for viewing the world. The soul, by nature, wants to do good, so it tries to use the best aspects of the personality (note the word "tries"). The demon is the inverse; it wants to do evil, and tries to express the absolute worst the personality can offer. Then there's Angel, who has the same basic personality and desires as Liam and Angelus, but has a spirit made of fused demon and soul. He silmotaneously is drawn to be the best Angel he can be and the worst Angel he can be.

[> [> [> [> I think you're right, and this echos Rufus's post -- s'kat, 12:34:10 02/06/03 Thu

I think Angel/Angelus is as close to a split personality as any vamp in the Jossverse is likely to get.

I would agree...Rufus did a very good post on MPD syndrom a while back - it might be in the current archives, if not check for last week or so. She did it right after Long Days Journey.

Angel does "hate" with a capital H - his alter-ego but uses it as a tool, while the alter-ego hates Angel with a H and
uses what it likes as a tool.

Both see the only of existing as the utter destruction of the other. I wonder if part of the reason Angel wants to "shanshu" or be human is to be rid of "Angelus"?
He seems to hold Angelus responsible for everything he is and has to put up with. Meanwhile Angelus seems to see
Angel as a nit...who can't deal? It is in a way, a fascinating portrayle of the split persona, best seen since Robert Louis Stevenson first wrote Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[> [> I agree-- Angelus and Angel -- Alison, 20:41:44 02/06/03 Thu

Angelus is Angels rage...when Angel told buffy he loved her for the first time he says "I try not to, but i can't stop"..some part of him resented her for that, and that part was Angelus..so when he was freed, he makes Buffy suffer for making him love her. Thats why he wants to hurt Cordy so badly- because Angel feels so betrayed by her.

[> Re: A swing... and a whiff. (Sp AtS 4.11) -- Just George, 01:10:46 02/06/03 Thu

Every once in a while someone chucks you the preverbal home run ball. Slow. Right down the pipe. All you have to do is make contact and its going to be "bye, bye baby!" That's what it must feel like when you get a chance to make an episode like Soulless. Angelus being Angelus. Truth telling. Character revelations. Pain. Everything that ME shows are famous for.

And they whiffed. Not even a grounder. A clean miss to strike out and end the inning.

(Ok, enough of the pointless baseball metaphors.)

Soulless bombed. The writers, director, and actors were handed the juiciest character situation in many an AtS episode and created something cliched, static, simplistic, and obvious.

I hate to sound like a troll. I like AtS. A lot. I've seen every episode. I watch every week. Paid extra for an all region DVD player and the AtS S1 and S2 DVD's from England to catch up. But this time I wasn't thrilled.

Was the show predictable? Here's what we learned:

Angelus is crafty. Knew that.

Wes loves Fred. I knew that. Heck Gunn knew that. I'm sure Fred could tell that Wes liked her.

Gunn is jealous of Wes. I knew that. Wes and Fred knew that. No surprise.

The only new thing here is that Gunn has something to be jealous of. But given the perfunctory, yet heavy handed, way in which the transgression occurred, it might be explained away by next episode. So far, it is "the fluke" with out the cute parts.

Wes has insecurities. Angel/Angelus knows them. I knew that too. Nothing new here.

Conner thinks Angelus is the real being. Conner has always treated Angel as if he were an evil vampire underneath. It was good to hear him say so, but relatively predictable none the less.

Conner throws up after seeing dead bodies. Sorry, I don't buy it. He grew up in the worst hell dimension known. And he's seemingly killed more often than Spike (and he's only 16. Or 18. Or something.) Conner has to have seen plenty of human victims around LA. This scene didn't pass the BS detector.

Cordy thinks she is a Champion. I knew that too (though I wish I didn't). But she's not one. She lies to herself in the end when she pulls back on her deal. This proves to me she's not really a Champion. (see Cordy Deal Breaker, above.) But I knew that too. I would have been more impressed if she had gone through with it. That would have taken fortitude.

Angel's encounter with the Beast. I didn't know what the connection would be, but this was pretty weak. No great cosmic importance, just a potential deal between bad guys, "You kill my nemesis and I'll kill yours." Boring!

The only interesting twist was the soul being missing. OK, the story gets to go on. I'll watch next week. Maybe they can get it right and hit a pitch out of the park.


(*Spoiler AtS 4.uhmm..."Soulless"*) -- Kenny, 20:17:59 02/05/03 Wed

Some random thoughts leading to the meat of the message:

1) It's been said, but worth repeating...WB's ad dept kicks the crap out of UPN's. The preview for next week's Angel almost made me tingle. UPN's must only know how to push sitcoms and wrestling.

2) Post-prime-time TV baffles me.

3) I have now seen two spots for "Deliver Us From Eva," one for girls looking for a chick flick, and one for guys looking for, uhm, an LLCoolJ movie? Advertising baffles me more than post-prime-time television.

4) We would like to thank this evening's sponsor, Amy's Organic Foods, for providing the chili to break up the nightly routine of ordering pizza.

OK, that gets the randomness out of the air. Most of it, anyway. I wasn't spoiled for this episode like I was for "Awakening." Whereas I believe being spoiled kept me from turning off the television last week, I'm extremely glad I wasn't this time around. I actually liked all of the characters here. Well, maybe not Gunn, but he was still sympathetic. Wes and Fred actually chemistry. For that matter, Wes and Gunn still have great chemistry. I'm actually looking forward to that plot next week.

Didn't think I'd be saying this, but I found myself really caring about Connor here. He finds himself inside everything he's ever heard about and has never gotten to see, and it's dead by the time he finds it. If we've been seeing things through Angel-colored glasses this season, and they're gone now, Connor comes off better with the specs off. From Angel's POV Connor should love Angel simply because Angel loves Connor. But Connor's a human who's never gotten to interact with humanity and probably never will. And Angel is the cause of that, even if he never intended it. Connor was literally conceived because of Angel's existential crisis. I really wish Connor could meet Kate, 'cause I think she could do the boy some good.

While Angelus may have been a decent foil for Buffy, Cordy's a better foil for him than Buffy could ever be. When Buffy doesn't flinch, it's to prove a point. When Cordy doesn't flinch, it's because Cordy doesn't flinch.

Oh, and we learned something really important about Angel this week. We thought, based on "Awakening," that Angel was oblivious to Gunn/Fred/Wes because it barely existed in his dream. Nope, turns out he's more aware than Lorne. He just doesn't care about Fred and Gunn.

***WOO-HOO! Futurama on Adult Swin!***

Sorry. He just doesn't care about Fred and Gunn. Lorne, either. Not as anything more than employees, anyway. Wesley, Cordy, and Wes are is family. It actually makes me think of a fanfic I wanted to write, but never got around to, and would now be reduntant. The idea is Angel had a brother we never knew about, who found out the truth and became a vampire himself in the process of hunting Angelus. Wesley now reminds me of the way I imagined Angel's brother, pre-biting. And Cordy, Wes, Connor (indirectly, through Darla) are all remnants of his life with Buffy. Shipper fodder! (Sorry, shippers, couldn't resist).

Ooh, just realized that Angel, who has father issues, was actually incredibly aware of Wesley's father issues. Which leads to another realization. Let's put aside Connor for a moment--everyone who cares about Angel cares about him more than he cares about them (except for Cordy, where it's probably just about even). Except for Wesley. Wesley's probably not aware at all of how much he means to Angel; he assumes Angel tolerates him, and thinks Angel may feel a little obligated to him. But he's still Angel's right-hand man, even if no one acknowledges it. Those two are never going to be totally OK again, but I think they'll both take comfort in the fact that the other one is there.

I wonder if Wesley had an older brother he had to live up to? Angel sure could have. It's like they're both the little brother in this relationship, making them painfully aware of each other insecurities and faults. But when Angelus shows up, he knows he's the older brother, and he takes full advantage of it.

OK, brain's out for now, and I want to watch Futurama. Maybe more later.

[> Re: (*Spoiler for 4.12 Promo) -- Q, 22:42:50 02/05/03 Wed

>1) It's been said, but worth repeating...WB's ad dept kicks the crap out of UPN's. The preview for next week's Angel almost made me tingle. UPN's must only know how to push sitcoms and wrestling<

I'd like to take major issue with this statement. Now, if we were judging promo's like mini-films, yes, WB's are much better. But as promo's go-- I favor UPN. Here is why: UPN shows a scene that is interesting enough to pique my curiosity, without giving away the meat. They usually keep them light and silly, even when the ep is dark and serious. This is great because I ALWAYS am pleasantly surprised by the ep. I go in thinking it will be fluff, and go away loving it.

On the WB, the ep NEVER lives up to the hype of the ad.(Someone WILL die? come on! Hooker on street #1 maybe!) Half the time they spoil the hell out of the ep (something UPN does not do!)

I would just rather have my curiosity piqued with light fun than be spoiled and have my hopes WAY exaggerated the way WB does!

Speaking of the Someone WILL die promo: What do you think of it?

Last year, on 24, they said that for the promo of an ep, an it was a LIE! I mean "somebody" died, some extra-- but no main character died. Would WB do that too? Last year 24 also aired a promo guaranteeing a shocking surprise, and SHOWED THE SURPRISE IN THE PROMO!

When I saw this promo, I thought "oh, they are combining those two weak 24 promo's into one ep!" I hope the ep proves to be better than 24's ep!

[> [> I was spoiled accidently -- oboemaboe, 22:57:15 02/05/03 Wed

"Speaking of the Someone WILL die promo: What do you think of it?"

There is nothing misleading about that promo. And no, it's not "third hooker from the left."

[> [> [> Re: I was spoiled accidently -- Q, 23:13:10 02/05/03 Wed


A regular "dies". But do they "die" die? Or is it like Gunn died in "Ground State". Is it going to be some soon-to-be-reversed mystical death, or a good ol' Jenny Calender/Doyle death. 'Cuz if it's not, then they are cheating!

Oh, and Please, God, LET IT BE CORDELIA!!!!

Thank you


[> [> [> [> To answer your question (without revealing the identity of the person)... -- Rob, 23:21:23 02/05/03 Wed

I was spoiled by accident for this, and YES someone dies. And YES it is someone MAJOR. And NO it does not look like he or she is coming back. And I really wish I wasn't spoiled, because just hearing about it shocked the HELL out of me!

You are in for quite a surprise!


[> [> [> [> [> Re: To answer your question (without revealing the identity of the person)... -- Q, 23:26:35 02/05/03 Wed

I am now getting VERY excited!

But still holding some reservations. With all of the buzz in season 6 about the big scoobie death, I can't believe there hasn't been the same buzz about this!

Well, I will wait and see.

Please, God, let it be Cordelia!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your input guys. I can't wait for next week!

[> [> [> [> [> Rob, would you care to step over to the Spoiler Board and tell me? -- Helen, 01:12:10 02/06/03 Thu

And please God let it be Connor.

I have a feeling they could be cheating though, I mean its probably not a member of the Fang Gang at all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I made a post attn: to you at the voy spoiler board. -- Rob, 07:30:40 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> AAARRRGGGHHHH! Spoiler for future ep in this thread!! -- Darby, 07:55:10 02/06/03 Thu

Okay, if you're going to shift from spoiling a promo to spoiling the next episode, would you please let us poor folks know in the subject line? I did not want to know this!

Yeah, yeah, I probably should have seen it coming as I worked through the thread, but I didn't, and I can't push the water back up and over the dam now that I'm soaked...

Phoooey and other expressions of disgust...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Making penance... -- Rob, 08:00:14 02/06/03 Thu

Oh my God, I am sooooooooo sorry! I guess since we were responding back and forth so quickly, I forgot to label the spoiler warning further than "not revealing identity" in the subject line. That's what happens when you post at 2:35 in the morning. I'm really, truly, incredibly sorry. I'm glad I didn't say any more than I did in the post.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I understand... -- Darby, 09:16:01 02/06/03 Thu

It's easy to do, we've all done it to one extent or another, but then the real penance is that you become the cautionary tale we hold up for a while to try to keep everybody else careful.

[> Essential Character Description at it's Best -- Haecceity, fighting the evil ethernet, 00:49:13 02/06/03 Thu

"When Buffy doesn't flinch, it's to prove a point. When Cordy doesn't flinch, it's because Cordy doesn't flinch."

This is a marvelous summation. So good that I've spent 20 minutes battling my unbelievably hideous 'net connection just to say so.

[> Buffy vs Cordelia -- Helen, 06:35:04 02/06/03 Thu

While Angelus may have been a decent foil for Buffy, Cordy's a better foil for him than Buffy could ever be. When Buffy doesn't flinch, it's to prove a point. When Cordy doesn't flinch, it's because Cordy doesn't flinch.

Although I do agree with this comment, and its great to see Cordy rediscovering her inner bitch, it is worth bearing in mind that when Buffy had to deal with Angelus she was five years younger than Cordy is now, and Angelus came as a total shock. The man she loved had turned into a monster. Cordy may love Angel (this is still something I feel we are being told rather than shown but never mind), but she got into that knowing the whole Angelus deal. She was there too.

And sometimes not flinching when you really want to, but hold your head up anyway, is braver than just being the sort of person who doesn't flinch. IMHO.

OK---I'm Hooked!!! -- Purple Tulip, 20:22:31 02/05/03 Wed

Ok, I've said here before many times that I don't watch Angel regularly, although I do do catch an episode here and there and read stuff posted here. But tonight I watched and let me just say that I am totally hooked! First of all, I just LOVE Angelus, and seeing DB play him again was just awesome. Second, who knew that Sean Astin was such a good director? Really, total props to him on this one. And third, the ensemble is just great, and I don't know why I haven't watched more before!

Also, did anyone else think that this Angelus was particularly more evil and maniacal than the one of season 2? Maybe it's just me.

[> Re: OK---I'm Hooked!!! -- Kenny, 20:49:08 02/05/03 Wed

He does seem that way, but I think there's a reason. On "Buffy" he really didn't know anyone outside of Buffy, so he didn't have ammunition to do more than kill Jenny, which was enough. But he knows these guys and can have much more fun. This time, he knows it's all about him, and he's having fun with it.

Way way OT: need a little professional writer help -- shadowkat, 20:45:48 02/05/03 Wed

I'm going crazy and need a professional writer's opinion.
The deal is : a literary agent interested is interested in fa fiction novel I've written. Great news right? Except ffor one big problem: She wants a detailed synopsis. So I've worked my ass off the past three days writing one and emailed it to two different friends to edit. Taking their suggestions under advisement and changed it.

But here's the problem, they don't agree, in fact they are diametrically opposed:

1. One editor believes very strongly that the synopsis should be in the past tense.


2.The other thinks it reads better in the present tense.

(yep, almost as bad as the fan war over Ats and Btvs.)

Which is the right way? Has anyone written one before?
Can you help? So sorry for taking up board space, but I know there are some amazing writers on this board, some who have even written professionally, and who (I dearly hope) have written synopsises - so I thought couldn't hurt to ask.

Any help you can provide would be REALLY appreciated. Just email it to me. Thanks a bunch!

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion.


[> I'm not a professional writer -- Isabel, 21:00:00 02/05/03 Wed

So my opinion is not what you're looking for...

I just wanted to say "Congratulations."

[> Re: Way way OT: need a little professional writer help -- Darby, 21:07:51 02/05/03 Wed

I know that an abstract is not quite the same thing, but they can go either way: if it's telling about the article, it tends to be present tense; if about the research covered in the article, past tense. Seems like fiction synopses follow the first pattern, and the ones I can remember do that..."This is what the story is about, or what is happening in the story"...present tense. Think synopses used to promote books and such - aren't they generally present tense?

[> [> From what I understand... -- Solitude1056, 21:15:53 02/05/03 Wed

And being someone in the nonfiction/thesis area, it's usually present tense (if not future tense). Ie, "I am studying," or "I will be researching," etc. So even though the story would be happening in the past tense, it seems reasonable to me that your synopsis, as a simple description of what you are writing/will write, would be present tense. And if you're not done with the writing, then I suppose the point at which you're extrapolating (and no longer reporting what's written so far) would change to future tense. "After a serious bout of parchesee, the hero loses his goldfish, who will be mutilated horribly, while leaping a hydraulic dam, in the following chapter."


But that's as a non-fiction person, so you could always toss my comments out the window and ask someone slightly less evil. ;-)

[> [> [> Re: From what I understand... -- DEN, 21:28:32 02/05/03 Wed

My experience covers nonfiction primarily, but I'd say present/future tens--it will enhance the suspense factor. Past tense on the other hand implies closure, and is correspondingly less engaging. Also, experience has taught me that if a prospectus is turned down for that kind of reason, the agent/publisher was not very interested in the first place, and took a handy way out.

An aspiring writer MUST cultivate the sensitivity of a toilet seat.

BTW, is this a Buffy project?

[> [> [> [> Not a Buffy project. Thanks for this! -- shadowkat, 21:49:40 02/05/03 Wed

Nope not a Btvs project. I finished the novel prior to my Buffy obsession. Although since I revised it last year during my Buffy obsession - I'm sure it affected the novel in some very odd ways.

Thanks for this btw!!

(maybe when I feel more able I'll try to get those BTVS and ATS essays published.) SK

[> Re: Way way OT: need a little professional writer help -- Tess, 21:25:11 02/05/03 Wed


I'm not a proffessional writer but I used to write all the time and was part of writer's group in town and know several published authors. The following passage was taken out of a book on manuscript submissions.

"Some writers feel that synopses should be written in past tense whereas others insist that present tens is the only suitable presentation. One way to manage the tense is to write all the background information in past tense. Then when you reach the point where the book opens, change to present tense. What works best for you is probably the best answer. Rules can be broken if you write a compelling synopsis. The important thing is to hook the reader."

Hope this helps, and congratulations and good luck.

[> [> Agreeing with what Tess said - makes perfect sense to me. *Good luck, 'kat!* -- OnM, 07:14:44 02/06/03 Thu

[> not yet, but working on it *yes I am a newbie to this board* -- Kellyne, 21:46:39 02/05/03 Wed

1) you need to write it the best way that you can... it isn't important if the synopsis is in first person or third person present or past what is important is that it works, and works well.

2) before you spend all of this time and effort make sure that the person is legit, so much bad stuff goes on just be careful.

and if you want another person to edit I would be more then happy to. you have my email.

Have a good one,

[> [> Re: not yet, but working on it *yes I am a newbie to this board* -- s'kat, 21:53:20 02/05/03 Wed

Thanks. The person is legit. Was a response to a query I sent them. SK

[> [> [> ohhhhh!! Very Cool, glad to hear it -- Kellyne, 21:58:45 02/05/03 Wed

still I think I let you read the first chapter of my book.... long time ago... back in April... and I would be more then happy to help if you wanted it.

*always happy to hear that there is hope out there.... I would be such a happy full time writer*


[> Thanks for the help! -- s'kat, 21:56:36 02/05/03 Wed

And the consensus seems to be present tense.


Will let you know if anything comes of this, promise.


[> [> Very exciting! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! -- ponygirl, 07:08:03 02/06/03 Thu

[> Time and Space -- passing through, 00:34:46 02/06/03 Thu

The complaint some people have is that present tense does not "ground" a story in "time" and "space" like past tense does. I would write in present tense, but make sure your synopsis includes good contextual details. This is important also if the context is fictional (i.e. not an historical time, or recognized prehistorical period, and not located in any known "space" -- Sunnydale vs. Los Angeles; 1958 A.D. vs. 2014.6 P.B.P.)

Then again, you could call the editor's assistant and ask which s/he prefers.

[> without reading the other replies... -- anom, 01:00:39 02/06/03 Thu

...I don't think there's a right or wrong way. Personally, it makes more sense to me to write it in the present tense: this is what happens in the story.

But the best advice I can give you is to ask the agent. That's who knows how it's done in professional circles & what publishers expect.

Good luck!

[> [> OT to anom... -- Angela, 04:49:12 02/06/03 Thu

I'm not sure if you're still interested but the Angel transcripts through Awakening are up at: Pysche or http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide_ang.shtml. They might be at Buffyworld too; I didn't visit there yesterday.

[> [> [> thanks, angela -- anom, 09:50:57 02/06/03 Thu

[> Congrats, 'kat! And from a reader's point of view... -- Marie, 01:53:40 02/06/03 Thu

...I think I prefer things present tense, but I also think that if it feels right to you, it is right.

Good luck - and will we be able to get the finished product in the UK, eventually?


[> Present tense -- cjc36, 05:23:28 02/06/03 Thu

Think of it being a written verbal pitch, or 'campfire voice' presentation. And since it is meant for a non-civilian lit agent, he or she should be able to ascertain your intentions.

Here's wishing you he very best of luck.

[> Re: Way way OT: need a little professional writer help -- leslie, 09:40:23 02/06/03 Thu

Elizabeth Lyon, in The Sell Your Novel Toolkit, says that synopses should be written in the present tense. I highly recommend the book, by the way--very thorough, and actually answers questions like this!

Good luck!

[> Thank you so much everyone for the support and the advice! -- shadowkat, 12:16:06 02/06/03 Thu

I really appreciate it and it really helped me a great deal.
Thank you!

Strange thoughts at midnight (spoilers for Soulless) -- Solitude1056, 21:36:13 02/05/03 Wed

When the lockbox is opened, and we see the lava lamp is gone, your first thought was Conor, right?

Or was your first thought like mine:

Cordy did it.

After all, she was there when what's his face was ripped apart, and the drinks were spiked, etc. Their failure to protect Manny was a direct cause for their failure against the Beast's sun blotto action. And that, in turn, seemed to both trigger - if not directly cause - the gang's need to bring Angelus to answer for stuff that Angel conveniently couldn't recall. We know Cordy spent all summer with the PTB, she's acted bizarre and pop-schizo since, and she could've done each of the two things related to Angelus. The first put the gang in a position that it required Angelus' information, and the second puts the gang in the position that it must continue to deal with Angelus. Why? Who gains? Or more precisely, who learns from the experience the most?

Either way, I retain the right to be suspicious of Cordy. Those PTB dropped info in her head and she's not exactly been hopping about trying to unlock it - after all, if she saw the entirety of Angel's life, why not spend as much time trying to unlock her own brain, without risking Angelus' wreaking havoc on the local population of puppies and skinny brunettes?

[> Footnote: I was impressed, overall, by Astin's directorial debut. Not half bad. -- Solitude1056, 21:38:24 02/05/03 Wed

[> I agree... (Soulless spoilers) -- Rob, 23:12:25 02/05/03 Wed

...although I'm not sure if I think this is an evil Cordy lookalike, a brainwashed Cordy (but still the one we know and love), or Cordy we know and love who is acting as a sleeper agent for the Beast and like Spike not knowing why she's feeling so weird.

I was impressed with the directing, too. Great, great episode. And actually a few jumps, which rarely happens to me. But I jumped when Angel grabbed Fred, and I jumped when the vamps attacked Connor and Cordy after leaving the preistess' house. Very taut, gripping, suspenseful. Definitely my favorite of the year, so far. And that's mighty impressive, considering there was a Joss Whedon-directed ep this season.


[> I've been suspicious... -- Dochawk, 23:31:22 02/05/03 Wed

of Cordy all season. something hasn't seemed right. But, I would go a step further (as many others have) and ask, was it really a higher plane with the PTBs where Cordy was all summer?

[> Maybe you're right.. But here is my Educated Answer (Major Speculation) -- neaux, 04:09:10 02/06/03 Thu

There is only one safe cracker around the AtS parts and that is GWEN.

GWEN did it. But the question is Who did she do it for?

Your answer about Cordy is a good possibility, but I'm going for the Surprise twist and say that Angel set it up.

So my theory is Angel tells Gwen to still his soul after its under lock and key so no one will mess with it.


[> Oh yes! (spoilers for Soulless) -- ponygirl, 07:04:25 02/06/03 Thu

And the fact that no one is suspicious of her (unlike Connor) is a big clue. I have to wonder if she is becoming suspicious of herself though, there was the "we should have seen it coming" and "they must have been psychic" line, maybe she's starting to wonder why her powers aren't giving her the heads up.

[> Re: Strange thoughts at midnight (spoilers for Soulless) I'll say it again -- Mackenzie, 07:45:41 02/06/03 Thu

Once again this week I am here to say I am also VERY suspicious of Cory. I am no where near as smart as some of you who post on this board but I know I am right about this. Again, my point is, if you lived in a world of witchcraft, spooks, and all things supernatural, and one of your friends suspiciously disappears for THREE months with no explanation and then just pops up with no memory are you going to believe it whole heartily that it is her? I DON'T THINK SO! So Angel located her as a higher being, why didn't he try to check if she would happen to still be there after this no memory Cordy showed up. They are all much to trusting for my taste. I hope to be wrong because I hate when a loved character goes bad but I will be saying I KNEW IT, if it turns out that we are right not to trust her. If I am wrong I officially admit I have egg on my face.

The Minute Before Angel -- lunasea, 08:20:51 02/06/03 Thu

'Twas a minute before Angel, when all through the room
Not a creature was stirring, it was quiet as a tomb.
The tape was placed in the VCR with care
In hopes that ANGELUS soon would be there.

The children were nestled, all snug in their beds,
While visions of pure EVIL danced in my head.
Me with my snacks and sweetie with a beer
Snuggled on the couch looking forward to the fear.

When on the television there appeared such a sight,
We wouldn't be able to watch Angel tonight.
I ran to the set and screamed loudly NO!!!!!!!
But to no effect, I wasn't going to get to watch my show.

A million thoughts raced through my poor head,
Most of them involving someone ending up quite dead.
What Angelus could do was nothing next to
The horrors that out of my twisted mind flew.

The culprit you ask, a really stupid sport
Basketball, it is called. It is played on a court.
Grown men in long shorts bouncing an orange ball
Their main talent is that they are all really tall.

The WB lied and like a fool I trusted
felt they were honest and now I was busted.
"We will give Angel our most prized spot.
After Dawson's Creek, It is really very hot."

"We love David and Charisma, Amy and Alexis, they're fun
We love Vincent and Andy and that guy that plays Gunn.
We don't want to hurt them. They're one of our best shows
That is if the ratings pick up, if not then out it goes."

I thought they were actually giving Angel a chance
Little did I know, it is Angel's last dance.
Musical chairs is the game they must now play
That is a sign that they aren't going be able to stay.

I collapsed to the floor in a sobbing heap
Jordan Levin was nothing but a tremendous creep
First he said no crossovers, what a sore loser
Buffy and Angel separated that was a doozer.

But adapted I did. The Buffyverse wasn't done
It just had new rules. It was still lots of fun.
Joss could work around anything, I had faith
I would watch those two shows no matter where they took place.

And now David could smile showing pure bliss
When he plays Angelus, it doesn't get any better than this.
How delicious the lines just drip from his lips
And the actions he takes make my poor heart do flips.

How I have been waiting for this night, all season long
With Angelus there, everything would go wrong.
He would torment and torture and give them their just deserts
He would show them what it really felt like when someone makes you hurt.

He was locked in a cage, but that wouldn't last
He would get out somehow and it would happen fast.
Then what fun he would have as he set to his work
Angelus wasn't one to stay in the shadows and lurk

But I will have to wait to see this event of the season
Basketball pre-empted it and now you have my reason
I want to stay unspoiled, so off-line I go
but I'll be back after I finally get to see the show.

[> Um, lunasea -- Masq, 08:26:08 02/06/03 Thu

Just make sure your WB station hasn't just preempted it until Saturday or something. Come back soon!

Cool poem, by the way, and my condolesces on missing this week's episode of "Angelus: the Series"

It was awesome!

[> [> Re: Um, lunasea -- lunasea, 08:33:22 02/06/03 Thu

It will be on Sunday at 10. See you Monday.

Thanks for your condolensces. What the poem didn't say was those snacks ended up being thrown at the TV. Then I got out my Buffy DVDs and got my Angelus fix that way. Still I can't help but feel even in a cage, Angelus was better than he was S2 on BtVS.

See ya Monday.

[> Condolences -- KdS, 08:32:30 02/06/03 Thu

The BBC in the UK cancels BtVS any time anybody does anything with a ball, so I share your pain.

[> Oh lunasea.... -- Angela, 08:39:46 02/06/03 Thu

Anticipation makes it all the sweeter...and he was worth the wait! ;-)

Best Line of 7.13 - Spoilers for Killer in Me - And Beyond -- Angelina, 09:00:33 02/06/03 Thu

I was not deeply moved by this episode, however, there is one line at the beginning of the episode, when Spike and Buffy are in the basement discussing the malfunctioning chip, that actually was worth the watch. Spike is chained, his preference, and as they are musing about the chip, Spike says to Buffy: "Perhaps it (the chip) wasn't meant to last this long - another thing we have in common, huh?" I thought that was a very telling remark for the rest of the season. Spike reminding Buffy that she has lived longer than every other "slayer" in history. I personally think that Buffy has gone beyond the being a mere "slayer" and has become something much more powerful - and I am hoping my little theory plays out at the series finale. (SOB SNIFF WAIL - I am going to miss SMG terribly, but she has been acting SO bored lately, right? - not that I blame her) One can only hope the "writers that be" get their act together and realize that there are only NINE - you heard me NINE episodes left to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and they have totally screwed up any chance of salvaging this once fantastic series. We need resolutions, we need a MEANINGFUL reason why Spike got his soul back (really terrible misuse of a great story line) - we need to know why Dawn, the Key, was really sent to Buffy. I guess Joss had too much on his plate with the now cancelled Firefly, and in the interim, he let Buffy die a slow death. Does anyone out there think ME can salvage Buffy and make all the fans happy with the final disposition of our Sunnydale heros? I am skeptical and I smell "X-Files" type disappointment here. AND, Angel hasn't been all that great either. I mean, the episodes of both shows are totally paralleling each other - like they are taking a Buffy script and just rewriting minor changes and making it an Angel script. Jeez, what's up with that?

[> Can't help ya much there. -- Rob, 10:01:21 02/06/03 Thu

So far, I am very confident that this is going to be my favorite season thus far. I adore the way they are bringing all the storylines from so long ago and letting the story, at its ending, come full circle. Re: SMG's performance. I think she's currently bringing more vitality and excitement to the role than she has since the end of the fifth season. She is totally on her game, IMO. This season has been the most consistently good as far as episodes, too. If you go back through all the eps, we have had some above average to great eps (Lessons, Beneath You, STSP, Sleeper, Never Leave Me, Bring on the Night, Potential), good eps (Help, Him, Showtime, The Killer in Me)and even 2 masterpieces (Selfless, Conversations with Dead People). IMO, there hasn't been one stinker in the bunch, even though some have been stronger than others. Buffy is in its seventh season...SEVENTH SEASON!!!....and still manages to spark debate, have fascinating storylines, and most importantly IMO surprise us. If this is the last season, the show will have left a great legacy, and gone out on top. Most shows play it safe their last year. Buffy is just as experimental as ever, and have accomplished the incredible task of redefining the show in its last season. This show combines all the best qualities the show has had over the years, and also promises to answer some long-held questions. I couldn't be happier with the way it's going.


[> I disagree with just about everything you said -- Dochawk, 11:43:02 02/06/03 Thu

I think this season has been fantastic. And I know there are alot of others who agree (and disagree) with me. We did this last year with Season 6, hopefully it won't start again.

My more important point was regarding Buffy being the longest living slayer. How do you come to this conclusion? She has survived longer than many, but the most? Hasn't been said anywhere that's true to the best of my recollection.

[> In between -- PepTech, 12:58:25 02/06/03 Thu

Playing both sides here - although I agree that this season has had some spectacular episodes, I too share some of the fears that Angelina mentions. After all, the full complexity of any arc has often only been explored in later seasons - note, as Rob does, how they're coming back to early-season stuff with regularity now. Selfless went back to reference S3 and up. KiM relied heavily on S4 and S6 events, and wouldn't have been as emotionally powerful without the interim time having passed (both in the case of Willow's grief/remorse and Spike's chip).

*If* this is it, then there won't be the chance to "refine" (for lack of a better word) Season 7, or for the characters to "deal" with the events that are happening now. That means that such metaquestions that Angelina has - such Spike's ensoulage and the Key's further purpose (if any) in particular - need to be addressed, in addition to wrapping up the FE storyline in such a way that viewers don't feel shortchanged. I don't have any doubt that ME can pull this off, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate a bit on it.

(The Key may be a dead issue to ME - we've seen more than once that Joss had made plans for S5 to be it, under which circumstance Dawn's continued existence would obviously be unexplored. If so, that's too bad - how has she reconciled her knowledge that she didn't actually exist until she was 14? They still make occasional references to stuff she did when she was five - but also the occasional "ball of light" stuff, too - which is it? Given the proper context and execution, this could be make for an ep as fulfilling as Selfless. Is there time for such an ep in the last 9?)

[> [> Re: In between (only speculation, not spoilery) -- Rob, 13:17:00 02/06/03 Thu

This is just purely speculation, but I think that the Key thing will probably be brought up and addressed finally when Joyce's prophecy to Dawn from CwDP comes into play. I just have a feeling about that.


[> [> [> Re: In between (only speculation, not spoilery) -- Angelina, 09:16:13 02/07/03 Fri

OK, I stand on ready to be corrected with regard to the longest lived slayer. I just assumed that Buffy was. Maybe, I am wrong on that count. But, I still think that the writers have been way too cavalier with plot lines this season, and are wasting the talents of the cast members on poorly thought out story lines. The Giles as First Evil storyline is a perfect example. Why waste ASH's talent on a pointless subplot, when we ALL knew he was really alive. It keep him from the intense interaction with the rest of the core SG that we all yearn for. Let's hope this improves in the coming weeks. I love Buffy, and I just want the show to go out a winner. Thanks for listening.

Evil Singing (Soulless spoiler) -- Rob, 10:16:51 02/06/03 Thu

I didn't want to start a whole new thread about this, but couldn't figure out where else to stick it. I just thought what a great little detail the song Angelus chose to sing was. It fit very well into the way the sweet nursery rhymeish song the First sang to Spike was given dark connotations.

"If you go out in the woods today, you're in for a big surprise..."

Although it's not a big shock that Angelus didn't the sing the full song. I don't think there's any way to make "Because today is the day the teddy bears have their picnic" sound evil. ;o)


[> Evil Teddy Bears -- WickedBuffy (humming), 10:21:03 02/06/03 Thu

OoOoo then again, it could be a reference to someone among the AI's who we think of as a Teddy Bear and is actually "evil", a plant.

Who's the most Teddy Bearish?

[> [> Full lyrics (Spoilers, Soulless) -- Rahael, 10:26:20 02/06/03 Thu

Lyrics to Teddy Bears' Picnic

"If you go out in the woods today, you're sure of a big surprise
If you go out in the woods today, you'd better go in disguise
For every bear that ever there was will gather there together because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears have their picnic.

If you go out in the woods today, you'd better not go alone
It's lovely out in the woods today, but safer to stay at home.
For every bear that ever there was will gather there together because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears have their picnic.

Picnic Time for Teddy Bears, the little teddy bears are having a lovely time today
Watch them, catch them unawares, and see them frolic on their holiday
See them gaily gadabout, they love to sing and shout they haven't got any cares.
At six o'clock their mummies & daddies will take them home to bed
because they're tired little Teddy Bears.

Every Teddy Bear that is good, is sure of a treat today,
There's lots of wonderful things to eat and wonderful games to play!
Beneath the trees where nobody sees, they'll hide and seek as long as they please,
For that's the way the Teddy Bears have their picnic. "

Fits in with all the 'Family' references, and the little 'Daddy's Birthday' on the calendar. Disguises and hide and seek....................also, what Angelus considers a 'picnic' isn't so sweet and innocent!

[> [> [> Rahael, so quick on the draw! -- pr10n, 10:39:06 02/06/03 Thu

I was floundering on the Internet Copyright Infringment Sea, while you were posting the whole of the tune.

I have several non-evil teddy bear loving daughters, and they always sing the "don't go into the woods alone" verse first. Some strange variant based on personal fear? Seems menacing, as if the Teddy Bears will go rogue if little girls show up uninvited.

Grrr, argh, jam-covered paws... I'm pale at the prospect.

[> [> [> [> Re: Rahael, so quick on the draw! -- Dannyblue, 10:48:39 02/06/03 Thu

See, I've always found that song kind of creepy. It basically says, "Look! Don't go in the woods today unless you want to be eaten." And the whole, "You're in for a big surprise," line always made me think, "And not a happy, pain-free surprise, either."

Maybe NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET is to blame, for making me suspect every hopscotch song and nursury rhyme. (shrug)

Anyway, I just heard the song again last week, and thought how creepy it seemed under the surface...to me, at least.

I love that it's in this episode.

[> [> [> [> [> and Lucky Connor -- WickedBuffy, 11:06:25 02/06/03 Thu

... that Angelus wasn't around when he was a baby, creepily
singing "Rock-a-bye Baby, in the treetop."

(of course, we changed the song around to a non-violent version in my family:

"Rockabye baby, in the treetop,
when the wind blows, the cradle will rock,
when the bough breaks, the cradle won't fall,
'cause mama and baby
are shoppin' at the mall."

[> [> [> [> [> [> The historical significance of "Rock-A-Bye, Baby" -- Rob, 11:11:42 02/06/03 Thu

Thought you just might find this interesting. I learned this in a Children's Literature class. Yes, the poem may sound barbaric, but at the time it was written, it was actually meant as political satire about King George III. The "wind blowing" was the American colonists' desires to break free from England, and after the revolution, George III's cradle did fall.

He also, I learned in that class, inspired "Humpty Dumpty." His prestige could never be "put back together again" after the humiliation of losing the colonists.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or more like the origins of the lullaby... -- Solitude1056, 13:58:22 02/07/03 Fri

The story I learned was that Rockabye Baby is actually a translation of an Algonquin lullaby, with the music adapted from an existing lullaby called "Hushaby, baby."* North-Eastern tribes used cradleboards to carry a child on the mother's back. While mothers gathered fruits or worked the fields, they'd hang the papooses on a nearby treelimb. It's a rather scary song when you think about it, but anyway, someone (a missionary or priest, I think) overheard a mother singing it, translated the phrase, put it to British music, and it's been a classic ever since. It may have later been used as a taunting song with a double-meaning, but the only certainty is the lullaby was already popular by the advent of the French & Indian war.

Incidentally, "Rockabye Baby" was the campaign song for Martin Van Buren. Now that's wierdness.

* Original lyrics for Hushabye Baby:

Hushbaby, baby, thy cradle is green;
Father's a nobleman, mother's a queen;
Sister's a lady, and wears a gold ring;
Brother's a drummer, and drums for the king.

[> [> [> [> [> [> My personal fantasy of... -- KdS, 15:26:28 02/07/03 Fri

...what would happen if Angel lost his soul ever since mid-S3 or so.

Lorne's room in the Hyperion. Lorne lazing in an armchair. Angel appears in the doorway

Angelus (singing): Birds flyin' high you know how I feel
Sun in the sky you know how I feel
Breeze driftin' on by you know how I feel
Its a new dawn, its a new day, its a new life for me
yeah, its a new dawn its a new day its a new life for me

Angelus stands over a now terrified Lorne and smiles

Angelus: And I'm feeling good


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rahael, so quick on the draw! -- Alison, 19:39:47 02/06/03 Thu

Dont all nursery ryhmes have some sort of creepy subtext?...like " Ring around the Rosies"....

[> [> [> [> [> [> That one was, of course, about the Black Death. You can learn so many fun things in Children's Lit! -- Rob, 19:51:01 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> I think the answer to that is an unequivocal yes! -- Helen, 01:13:59 02/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> I was all ready to post when Rob beat me to it! -- Rahael, 11:09:45 02/06/03 Thu

So that makes him the fastest!

[> [> [> [> [> Heh heh. -- Rob, 11:15:03 02/06/03 Thu

Actually, I find the complete lyrics very interesting, because they are a bit creepier than I ever heard them. When I was in kindergarten, my class did a play of "The Teddy Bears Picnic." We were all dressed up, and we even saw a cartoon full of Care Bearish type bears. And I don't think we did the "don't go in the woods alone" part. That certainly does seem very menacing. Still, teddy bears don't seem very scary. Unless of course they come to life, and eat you with their sharp teeth and claws. ;o)


[> [> [> [> [> [> Annotate this... -- pr10n <-- so deeply ashamed, 11:19:27 02/06/03 Thu

"On Vulcan, the 'teddy bears' are alive and have six-inch fangs."

Oh the follies of memory.

[> [> [> [> [> [> there's a button about that! -- anom, 12:24:53 02/06/03 Thu

But you knew that, didn't you?

"Beware! The teddy bears of today still carry the vestigial claws of their ancestors"

See? There's something to your conjecture!

[> [> [> Re: Full lyrics (Spoilers, Soulless) -- Alison, 11:56:48 02/07/03 Fri

Maybe the teddy bears are the demons that are now "having a picnic" while LA has no sun..i never thought the teddy bears idea of picnic food was PB&J....

[> Re: Evil Singing (Soulless spoiler) -- ponygirl, 11:13:25 02/06/03 Thu

Like Dannyblue, I've always found that song scary. The tune is so slow and menacing compared to the lively words, I could never bear (ha!) to listen to it as a kid. I'd agree that "surprise" and "disguise" are the key words, but I've been thinking about the picnic lyric too. Could the King of Cups finally be getting his picnic?

There were a lot of great lines last night. The innuendo-meter was definitely cranked! I actually choked on my drink when Wes made his "any opening" remark, and then felt very ashamed of myself for doing so.

[> [> Re: innuendo -- Rob, 11:17:34 02/06/03 Thu

And Angelus' description of listening to Fred and Gunn in bed together. Was that perhaps the most overt masturbation reference in a Joss show? Btw, I may be just evil, but that was without a doubt my favorite line in the show. It was just so cruel and overtly sexual. If you don't count Cordy's expression at how long Angel was taking in the bathroom and his startled, "I'll be right there!" in "Spin the Bottle."


[> [> [> Re: Joss and off-handed remarks -- pr10n, 11:21:58 02/06/03 Thu

I think Xander's "Sock-Puppet of Love" was the very most overt.

"Who's this Anya? Is she prettier than me?"


[> [> [> [> Oh, yeah, and then of course... -- Rob, 11:24:15 02/06/03 Thu

...Buffy's hand gesture (and Xander's reaction to it) in "Hush."


[> [> [> [> [> and don't forget all those Willowendos... N/T -- WickedBuffy, 11:31:49 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> certainly more overt than... -- anom, 12:08:48 02/06/03 Thu

...Andrew's complaint, "Careful! That's my joystick hand!"--which was really more of a double entendre. But still worth mentioning.

[> [> [> [> Re: Oh! And don't forget... -- Liv, 12:22:22 02/06/03 Thu

Buffy realizing what her fifth grade unrequited crush song (The Divinyls' "I Touch Myself") was about in Lie To Me.

[> [> [> Re: Oh! And don't forget... -- Liv, 12:23:37 02/06/03 Thu

Buffy realizing what her fifth grade unrequited crush song (The Divinyls' "I Touch Myself") was about in Lie To Me.

[> [> [> [> Ah yes! Should've remembered. The annotation thread's just up there if you want to add that. ;o) -- Rob, 12:33:04 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> speaking of which, how come... -- anom, 12:35:26 02/06/03 Thu

...Angelus sings better than Angel? OK, he still doesn't really sing well, but noticeably better!

Evil ---> smarter is one thing (& I don't really agree, even if Cordelia & Wesley think so, & even though it seems to be what persuaded Angel to go through w/bringing Angelus back), but evil ---> sings better? Hmm...maybe Angel's guilt leads to inhibitions that limit his ability to cut loose musically!

[> [> [> Re: speaking of which, how come... -- Tess, 12:56:28 02/06/03 Thu

The only two really good singers I can remember hearing in Caritas were Lindsey and Darla...both evil. Seems on the whole that evil sings better than good. Although Harmony kinda put a kink in that theory.

[> [> [> [> Re: speaking of which, how come... -- anom, 21:03:48 02/06/03 Thu

I guess lame evil doesn't sing so great either. Wonder if it's an inverse relationship?

On the other hand, when Darla sang, she was human & arguably not evil.

[> [> [> [> [> Odd spoilery Souless thoughts and Clippy -- fresne, 09:35:52 02/07/03 Fri

Well, I did have this odd moment watching Angel(us) thinking
Angelus makes what three, four literary references in a short space of time.
Angel hardly ever refers to the dense poetry that he was always reading S1-3 BtVS.
Angelus is aware enough of Fred/Gunn's problems to make with the hammer, chisel, crack.
Angel always behaved oblivious to Fred/Gunn as adults.
Angelus not a bad creepifying singer.
Angel sings sappy songs badly
Angelus wears leather pants.
Angel only wears leather pants when he's accessing his inner noir.
Angelus is Angel + us (Latin for masculine, I think). So, while Angel has more (the soul is the clothing that Angelus I guess isn't wearing, hmmm...as my thoughts stray, back on track), his name has less. Which makes me think of the joke in the Romance of Silence that only difference between Silencius and Silencia is the dangling -us and you know Angel really shouldn't risk happy soul ripping sex, cause you know curse. While Angelus, not so much a problem.

Then the odd momentary thought that if only we could set this Angelus to good, but wait, we can, cause you know..., but wait, then he, and then, huh.

Have I mentioned that I've been sick. I was tying in MS Word and the little Help Paper Clip thing came up and I actually thought, "You know I've been maligning him all these years, he's not salacious and creepy at all. He's kind of cute." Then I told myself to snap out of it. Clippy is an incarnation of the First Evil and that's all there is to it.

As you were.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Odd spoilery Souless thoughts and Clippy -- Angela, 10:31:36 02/07/03 Fri

REFs: He made at least four; but, I think one was Joss's thinking out loud like he did thru most of OMWF.

Maybe Angel wasn't reading; just looking at the pictures. Are there illustrated versions? OK sorry, that was beneath me. Wasn't he more into philosophy and Buffy into poetry? I remember thinking about it and how if only Spike were a good poet... although, that seems like a long time ago now.

It's funny you just made me remember something (not that it's related but) Gunn taunted Angelus about not getting *any* and I thought "no, that's Angel", so either Conner's not alone in confusing the two, or I'm misinterpreting *any*.

Hope you feel better soon and I agree with you on mr. clippy. Definitely bad ju-ju.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Salacious and Creepy....LOL. Great post. -- Rahael, 10:43:46 02/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> MS is the First Evil, Clippy is just its minion (NT) -- tomfool, 11:37:20 02/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> And oddly your post makes lots of sense -- s'kat, 12:03:42 02/07/03 Fri

And I can't claim sickness as an excuse.

Somewhat OT but I now completely get why you suggested I read Cordelia's Honor by Lois MacMaster Bujold to understand the truly odd complications of SR and how non-black and white and multifaceted a good writer can make this. (If you want to know what the heck I'm referring to?
Read the book. ;-) )

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion:

Agree it is interesting how Angelus seems to access those things Angel can't. And Angelus question about why the heck Angel has a thing about Raiders of the Lost Arc - made me laugh. Angelus prefers Othello and Oedipus...LOL! Also has a far more interesting musical repertoire.

Yes...if only we could persuade Angelus to go well you know's route. ;-)

Me thinks you may be right when you say the only difference really is the "us", which may be numerous items: sans soul,
hyper masculine/rage unleashed, dark side, infection...pick your favorite.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And oddly your post makes lots of sense -- Arethusa, 12:27:29 02/07/03 Fri

Apropos of nothing and continuing Rufus' split personality metaphor....

Angel took everything his father hated about him and gave it to Angelus. The lechery, violence (fighting), sexuality and addictions, as well as the intellectual and artistic side. Like in the famous Richard Matheson episode of Star Trek, Angel is weaker for the loss. Angelus was calm and still, utterly confident of himself, while Angel constantly seeks affirmation, losing focus he needs to stay true to his mission.

[> Question about the tune -- d'Herblay, 17:47:15 02/06/03 Thu

I have no recollection of ever hearing the words to "Teddy Bears' Picnic" before, but the tune is very familiar. I just can't put my finger on how I would know it but not the words. Can anyone help jog my memory?

[> [> Re: Question about the tune -- dub ;o), 18:39:53 02/06/03 Thu

I'm assuming that Rah has hummed it for you, and that you're not basing your familiarity on the DB version we heard last night, because that...um...strayed from the tune a little.

One thing I can suggest is that the tune, sans lyric, has been used in more than one Saturday morning cartoon.

(Hope you two are having a great visit, BTW!)


[> [> [> And some commercial, I think Downey, used it recently. -- Rob, 19:13:07 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> It's in a lot of music boxes, too. -- WickedBuffy, 19:28:06 02/06/03 Thu

... the ones where the little metal pin thingie hits the rotating metal bumps to make a tinny tune.

(Sorry, hope you can understand my highly technical description.) ;>

[> Given Joss's and others' wide TV viewing -- KdS, 04:46:24 02/07/03 Fri

There may have been an influence from the fact that the song was used to memorably sinister effect in Dennis Potter's famed The Singing Detective

[> [> Hmmm. Long-term annotation for Rob -- KdS, 04:51:17 02/07/03 Fri

Potter's musical trilogy for the BBC - Pennies from Heaven (1930s), The Singing Detective (1940s) and Lipstick on Your Collar (1950s) - in which lipsynching to classic pop songs was used to illuminate characters' mental states, may have been an influence on the whole Lorne/Caritas concept.

[> [> [> Ooh! I like that! -- Rob, 09:19:42 02/07/03 Fri

Also recently, "Singing Detective" became an American film, starring Robert Downey, Jr.

And in the early 80s, "Pennies from Heaven" was made into an American film starring Steve Martin and Bernadette Peters. Actually very, very good movie that was criminally underappreciated, I think. Although I've never seen the original BBC series, and I've heard that that's generally considered to have been the superior version. As is "The Singing Detective," which, on another side note, I read is coming out on DVD in the US in April, so I'm very happy I'll finally get a chance to see it.


Wasn't VR5 that show (OT) -- WickedBuffy, 11:14:47 02/06/03 Thu

....where aliens came to earth disguised as humans and acted like they were friendly and were going to help us advance but secretly weren't and didn't even look like us but were gross-out reptilian and some actor named Mark with blonde hair was in it and had a crush on an alien but fought for the secret undrground movement against the not-really friendly aliens where half the episodes took place on their gigantic spaceship that oddly enough found a great parking place? or am I wrong then what was that show?

I liked Alien Nation alot better, though. Drama AND humor.

[> That was V -- Wisewoman, 11:45:34 02/06/03 Thu

VR5 was about a computer genius/psychic kinda chick, I think her name was Syndey (!) and ASH was in it as her mentor.


[> [> Sy(i)dney, I think, and I have a know a couple of female Sids. -- Lilac, 12:00:09 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> " I have a know " sheesh, English much? -- Lilac, 12:03:33 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> I know female Sydneys too...just thought it was like Alias ;o) -- dub ;o), 12:13:59 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Tnanks Wisewoman and so aptly named! -- WickedBuffy, 12:04:55 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Description of VR5 -- s'kat, 12:13:23 02/06/03 Thu

Wisewoman was right. It starred Lori Singer and ASH and
Micheal Eastman (who is currently playing a vampire
in Port Charles). It was a complicated plot about a computer genius who could travel into alternate dimensions via a virtual reality device. Vr5 stood for the 5th reality.
The goverment was trying to get their hands on her. They
had destroyed her parents. You weren't sure who to trust.
Made it for about a year or so. Sort of La Femme Nikita
meets Max Headroom meets X-Files. ASH was IMHO the best thing in it and he played more of a Ripperish role than Giles.

SK (who admits she's a die hard ASH fan. I followed ASH from Vr5 to Btvs way back in 1997. Vr5 ended in 1996. If it weren't for ASH - I may never have seen btvs.)

[> [> [> Ah, fond memories -- fresne, 13:42:59 02/06/03 Thu

Yes, I particularly liked the VR sequences, which were in no way computer generated. Super color saturated sequences, heavy on the glow factor.

It actually took me awhile to map Giles, tweed librarian extraordinaire, with his character on VR5, more leather than tweed. The episode that stands out in my memory being the whole Sid gets kidnapped and is confused as to whether or not ASH's character is trying to rescue or torture her. Intercut with quazi Hard boiled detective sequences in VR. Strange would be an understatement. And I mean that in a good way.

[> [> [> [> Loved VR5.... -- yabyumpan, 22:34:39 02/06/03 Thu

It was repeated on the SciFi channel in the UK about a year ago although so I was able to record it although I did see it when it was first aired.

I think it was a bit to surreal and dark to last more than one season, it felt at times a bit like watching the Prisoner, I felt totally drawn in by it even though I didn't really understand what was going on half the time ;-)

Apart from BtVS & AtS, most of the series I've loved have nover gone beyond one season Grrrr Arrgh (I've just found out that Odyssey 5 has been canceled as well :-( )

[> My favorite V feature (OT + danger to kittens) -- pr10n, 13:46:49 02/06/03 Thu

... Was the distended jaw rodent eating. Now that was a surprise -=- the first time. Then it became The Gimmick That Wouldn't Die, and then it vanished. Also, attractive humanoid aliens in tight pants, always a plus.

Off List to Lurking Buffy Staffers: We know you're here among us. A distended-jaw kitten-eating monster would be cool. Copyright (c) 2003 pr10n 8urn8ag

[> [> Re: My favorite V feature (OT + danger to kittens) -- WickedBuffy, 16:45:40 02/06/03 Thu

oOOo I remember that part now that you bring it up!

But don't alot of the demons in Buffyverse already eat kittens? Some of them must have wierd ways of getting them down.

Or do I have that part wrong and kittens are just like "money" - until they are cats, and then they are just let loose? ummm the PETA version? ;>

Somehow, I think it was easier to get rodent chomping aliens past the censors than if they had used kittens. hmmm, though they do have those demons who eat people..... for example, Willows tummy skin. eyuck!

Angelus gets a BAD RAP Pt. 1 (Soulless Spoilers and Spoofs) -- neaux, 11:49:08 02/06/03 Thu

Ahem. Here is something I envisioned last nite. An interrogation from Wesley to Angellus with a twist.

Imagine Sweet appeared in LA and forced everyone to RAP!
Here is the first scene with our favorite White Boy Wesley on the mic.

Angel to Angellus,
You're a litlle overzealous.
Could you please, please tell us,
How me and all my fellas
can kill squash or quell the
demon here from Hellus?

And for the record...

May I speak now and dispell the
Rumor you are selling us
about Fred and this new male lus' (lust)

( whispers)
Cuz I think Gunn is getting Jealous,
and we cant afford for him to nail us.
damn, you're so full of melous (malice).

[> Texas FredB Takes the Mic -- cjl, 12:16:09 02/06/03 Thu

(Fred warily approaches Angelus' cage, snatching the mic off its stand underneath the security camera. Wes and Gunn anxiously watch the action from the monitor. As she's about to start her rap, the guys suddenly hear the theme from "The Young and the Restless" echoing through the lobby.)

GUNN: Damn, English. Did you borrow my Mary J. Blige tape? Again?

WES: Uh, that's not coming from my office...

FRED: So tired, tired of this drama
No more, no more
I wanna be free
I'm so tired, so tired

No more pain (no more pain)
No more pain (no more pain)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No one's gonna make me hurt again

What a player, fool
Go through ups and downs
Nowhere and all the time
You wouldn't be around
Or maybe I like the stress
Cause I was young and restless
But that was a long ago
I don't wanna cry no more

No more pain (no more pain)
No more game (no more games messin with my mind)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No one's gonna make me hurt again
No more tears (no more tears, I'm tired of cryin every night)
No more fears (no more fears, I really don't wanna cry)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
I don't ever wanna hurt again
Wanna speak my mind, wanna speak my mind

Uh, it feel so good
When you let go
Avoid this drama in your life
Now you're free from all the pain
Free from all the game
Free from all the stress
So bye your happiness
I don't know
Only God knows where the story is
For me, but I know where the story begins
It's up to us to choose
Whatever we win or loose
And I choose to win

No more pain (no more pain)
No more game (tired of your playin' games with my mind)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No more, no more,
No more, no more
No more tears (no more tears, no more cryin every night)
No more fears (no more waking me up in the morning)
No drama, no more in my life

(Fred slumps into a chair, spent.)

[> [> LOL!! -- neaux, 12:35:55 02/06/03 Thu

Does Angels soul have a Mileage Plus Plan? -- WickedBuffy, 11:58:15 02/06/03 Thu

This time Angels soul wafted into the shamans bottle. Then got locked up, then stolen (we assume).

My questions:
1) Where did Angels soul go before when he was Angelus? Though The First brought it back once (or so it claimed), how did TE get it and from where?
2) Does Angels soul have any thoughts or consciousness? Any power on its own? They were really worried (tense scene) about dropping it when Cordy passed it on to Wes, but what if they HAD dropped it? Does it die? Why? Does it careen wildly around the earth? Does it search out it's owner? Does it break into a billion pieces even though it looks like its a gaseous form? Does it WANT to escape and that's why it's corked up. Why would it want to be free and where would it go?
3) Angels soul was "lost" before because we didn't know where it was. But this time, we knew where it was. So, it wasn't ever "lost", it was removed and stored. And now, it's still not lost, it's stolen.
4) Can Angels soul move of its own accord within the bottle? Is it sentient? Could Angels soul have "stolen" itself?
5) Sometimes "spirits" inhabit other peoples bodies (ummm, am I confusing this with Xena?), anyway, could Angels jump into someone else?

[> oops! Possible spoilers above ! thru 7x13 N/T -- WickedBuffy, 12:01:49 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Two for one -- Hauptman, 12:16:48 02/06/03 Thu

I don't have any answers to your above post except to say that there are probably rules to the soul thing just like there are rules with, say, water. Did you know that water cannot be compressed. You can squeeze a steel block and make it a hair smaller. Doesn't work on water.

All that to say that even if you can't make water do everything you want it to, you can get a lot out of it. It has three states of being (liquid, solid, gas) and various uses and limitations in each state. A soul might have 17 different states and the one that allowed the shaman to control it is the one in the bottle. If they dropped it one would expect the soul to go wherever it did when Angel and Buffy got groinal. Maybe the Shaman "froze" it and put it in the mystical pottery barn's version of a refrigerator.

But I didn't write to talk about that, though it is interesting. Your post made me wonder if there is anyway to see Angel and Angelus confront each other. I can't think of a way (that isn't completely cliche), but your post made me think that now is the time if it will ever happen. But I don't think Angels soul in another persons body would be Angel. I'm confused. Loved the Ep, though. Angelus is just, he's just...he's evil.

[> [> [> How about "this" in "that"? -- WickedBuffy, 16:28:42 02/06/03 Thu

I guess that was alot of questioning - that soul thing is just so often part of the Buffyverse and so little is actually explained about it. Though the AI's seemed to know it would be really horrible to drop it, why aren't we privy? ::whine:: c'mon Joss, give up a little to us!

What about Angels soul in Connors body? Now, THAT would be quite a meeting of the three of them.
Sometimes Connor seems to me to act like the physical embodiment of Angels struggle with Angelus. and vice versa.

Aside from the whole "nature vs nurture" stuff, I wonder what traits of Darla and Holtz Connor is showing? Especially Darla.

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