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Male Bonding (NOT BONDAGE) in Angel 4.12 -- neaux, 07:00:00 02/13/03 Thu

Male Bonding (NOT BONDAGE) in Angel 4.12

I just wanted to start a thread on the Gunn Connor interaction in last night's ep. I for one was happy to see them getting along,
€for one reason Gunn needs some guy time since his relationship with Fred has dissolved
€the second reason being that Connor needs someone to pal with since what he thought was his relationship with Cordelia was obliterated and
If Connor is to be integrated into the group he needs someone to have his back in more ways than just the Actioned Packed Backing. But then again Connor may still find the touchy feeliness of the group as disturbing and may not want to be a part of the ATS inner circle.

What do you guys think? Should Connor try harder to be in the group or is he doing the right thing by keeping his distance.

Anyway just to add this, I thought Gunn and Connor going on a mission together was cool. Connor admired Gunn's quick work of the superfast demon, and both have an admiration for weaponry and ass kicking.

[> Re: Male Bonding (NOT BONDAGE) in Angel 4.12 -- CW, 07:09:13 02/13/03 Thu

I think Gunn now feels isolated from the group which makes him Connor's natural ally. Since it looks like Cordy-monster is trying to force the group apart, getting the group back together may be the theme for the rest of the season. Connor looks like the key to everything on the good side at the moment.

[> [> Re: Male Bonding (NOT BONDAGE) in Angel 4.12 -- Dannyblue, 07:25:43 02/13/03 Thu

And, remember, Gunn acted as Connor's father over the summer. Teaching him, scolding him, praising him. It was obvious Connor liked Gunn even then. Unfortunately, he was working against Gunn (and Fred) in the search for Angel, which probably made him feel guilty that Gunn was offering him his friendship. That was part of the reason he kept challenging Gunn, I think. He wouldn't feel so guilty if Gunn was yelling at him.

[> HAMLET Gravediggers Scene?? Shakespeare Relevance?? -- neaux, 07:25:37 02/13/03 Thu

I'm not a Shakespeare buff.

Are the gravediggers from Hamlet?? I think.

Is there a parallel here with Gunn and Connor and the Gravediggers??

[> [> Re: HAMLET Gravediggers Scene?? Shakespeare Relevance?? -- pr10n, 08:12:11 02/13/03 Thu

Methinks no, at first blush:

- Hamlet and Horatio were not the diggers.
- The Gravedigger was preparing for Hamlet's girlfriend's funeral.
- Yorick is a skull, not a super-fast chomper Chumash nasty.


- Hamlet (Connor) is about avenging his father's murder by his brother (Angel "killed" by Angelus)
- Shakespeare has been a theme in the dialog since Angelus and Gunn first appeared together (ENTER Gunn and Fred, descending. ANGELUS: "Othello and Desdemona.")

Bottom line: We should wait for more plot to play out. One scene does not a thematic development make.

DAMN MARCH: In like a lamp, out like a liar. At least it's not April.

[> [> [> "Alas, poor soon-to-be-headless soul-eater. I knew him..." ;o) -- Rob, 08:26:06 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> probably reading too far into but.. -- neaux, 08:37:03 02/13/03 Thu

I was perusing a site on Hamlet.. just for kicks,

and maybe the only relevance is the grave digging and the Skull.

but I found this passage interesting just because of Angel being drowned this past season.

First Clown: Give me leave. Here lies the water; good: here stands the man; good; if the man go to this water,
and drown himself, it is, will he, nill he, he
goes,--mark you that; but if the water come to him
and drown him, he drowns not himself: argal, he
that is not guilty of his own death shortens not his
own life.

I believe this passage speaks of Ophelia, who drowned herself, but maybe this scene could speak of Connor's guilt at Drowning Angel?
Does Connor have guilt??

[> [> [> Re: Waiting -- Celebaelin, 09:55:05 02/13/03 Thu

There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,

Hamlet III 1 68-74

The soliloquy, sounds kind of Angelus-like to me

contumely = insolent reproach or abuse

Second Clown: Who builds stronger than a mason, a shipwright or a carpenter?

First Clown: Ay, tell me that and unyoke.

Second Clown: Marry, now I can tell.

First Clown: To't.

Second Clown: Mass, I cannot tell.

First Clown: Cudgel thy brains no more about it, for your dull ass will not mend his pace with beating. And when you are asked this question next, say 'a gravemaker'. The houses he makes lasts till Doomsday. Go get thee in, and fetch me a stoup of liquor.

Hamlet V 1 50-60

[> [> [> Re: HAMLET Gravediggers Scene?? Shakespeare Relevance?? -- JC, 12:21:14 02/13/03 Thu

"Calvary" is derived from the Latin "calvaria", meaning skull. Further allusion to Shakespeare, if looking for reinforcement to the argument.

It also is the place near Jerusalem where the crucifixion of Jesus took place. Interesting to consider that Lilah had a continually bleeding wound in her side.

Additionally, it can mean any extremely painful experience.

Kudos to whomever picked that title. Inspired and brilliant choice.

Thanks to Websters for the definitions.

[> [> [> [> Re: Showing my ignorance (again??) -- pr10n, 15:38:27 02/13/03 Thu

Yer basic "continually bleeding wound" is a big time archetype (he says, knowing about the plethora of folklorists and Jungians and anthropologists hereabouts).

Osiris, the Fisher King, Baldur, Christ, Lilah: whoa, good company!

[Notice I only know the easy ones. Probably Asian and Mesoamerican ones too, and more!]

[> Birds of a feather! -- Masq, 07:42:29 02/13/03 Thu

I could sooo see Connor and Gunn becoming buds if Connor can just get past the "don't tell me what to do!" thing from last summer. These two have a lot in common.

More than Gunn and Wesley did back in S. 2, and they were good buds then.

[> Connor needs friends (Spoilers up to Calvary) -- Masq, 14:30:59 02/13/03 Thu

I mean, think about it. This boy returns to Earth last season and the only friend he really has at that time is the elderly Holtz who kills himself and leaves him alone there. Well, there was that junkie girl for about 5 minutes. Then Connor hangs with Justine a little bit, but apparently not long, because Connor ends up in the Hyperion with Fred and Gunn and Justine ends up in a cage.

Fred and Gunn treat Connor like their child, which makes some sense, since he acts like one. Then Angel returns, but he is always the "father", and their bonding last season over vampire-slayage is ancient history.

Connor tries to bond with Cordelia, and they are friends, but he also wants her to be his lover, which she rejects after one confusing slip-up. So Cordelia falls back into being more of a mother than a friend or lover.

He is the "kid" with everyone, and I think it's about time one of them stopped treating him like a kid and more of part of the group. He has a lot of growing up to do, granted, but he desperately needs to connect to somebody or something in the world. Being a loner isn't helping his coping skills much. And now with Daddy evil and Mommy evil (apparently), Connor needs a stable connection to the human race more than ever.

[> I loved this... (spoilers AtS 4.12) -- Ixchel, 16:37:37 02/13/03 Thu

Gunn and Connor seemed to have regained their brotherly dynamic from DD (and, presumably, the summer). Connor was willing to listen to Gunn's instructions in the basement (instead of running after Lilah) and didn't seem offended.
Gunn seems to have lost or put aside his suspicions and accepts (trusts?) Connor. I'm sure this is something that Connor really needs, a person he can trust and care for that he doesn't have conflicted feelings about (unlike Angel).


Help! In the final 5 minutes of Calvary (Spoiler!) -- WickedBadLuck (arghhhhh), 08:17:31 02/13/03 Thu

( ... and continuing my week of bad luck regarding any show by Joss Whedon this week)

I wanted to rerun my tape of the last few minutes of last nights Angelus to check on something. As I tried to replay, the tape exploded in the VCR and completely ruined the whole cassette!

Anyway, could someone tell me exactly *what* Cordelius used to kill Lilah? I just assumed it was one of the arrows she pulled out of herself BUT woke up this morning wondering if there was a chance it was that "made of my boned" thing The Beast was shown earlier presenting to its master. (I realized she probably made the wound look like it was an Angelus bite, though, to keep suspicion off herself.))

Probably wasn't, but could someone put my mind to rest on that little aspect?


[> Just checked right now, and...[spoiler] blah blah blah [spoiler]... ;o) -- Rob, 08:22:05 02/13/03 Thu

...It's either the bone thing or some um bony-looking weapon.


[> [> AAAAHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! -- WickedBuffy, 09:28:00 02/13/03 Thu

Thank you, Rob! As soon as I get it up on Quicktime I'm gonna super slo-mo it to see if I can tell for sure.

[> [> [> I tried to slo-mo ("Calvary" spoilers above and here) -- Masq, 09:32:18 02/13/03 Thu

And it looks similar, but not quite as bony as the bone the beast had. But we see the beast in the dark in fire light, and Cordelius and her weapon in a well-lit hotel. So... could be the same. Could likely be the same thing.

[> [> [> [> ahh, that better explains The Beast scene to me...(spoiler still) -- WickedCursed, 10:31:13 02/13/03 Thu

Ahh, thanks Masq! I guess they would try to keep it as ambiguous as possible.

I was wondering why we saw that scene of The Beast giving the Bone Thang to its Boss. Angelus had already repeatedly told us there was a bigger evil, there didn't seem to be any doubt there was in my mind.

I guess the scene might have been just to validate what Angelus said, but when do they ever do that? I think it was also to show the Bone Thang, too. It's gonna pop up some more.

Kinda reminds me of the knife The Mayor gave to Faith. It was an important prop. Wouldn't it be a kick if Faith uses that Bone Thang to kill The Beast? That the only thing to kill it is something made from itself?

[> [> [> [> [> The Beast ..(spoiler still) -- Darby, 10:35:53 02/13/03 Thu

And why the sudden incursion into the Beast's life? Til now, we've only seen the Beast when one of our viewpoint characters have interacted with him (Hmmmmmm...). It could have been just to show us the knife and confirm Angelus' claim, but haven't they been having fun keeping coy over just what Angelus really knows?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly, Darby! That Bone Thang (still spoilin') -- WickedCursed, 10:48:16 02/13/03 Thu

.. is a bigger player than we think, I think.

My guess is it's also the only thing that can kill The Beast. Something made from The Beast itself. (Plainly written on all those missing pages of Wes's books)

umm, and Faith will use it to do that. Because it reminds me of that fancy knife The Mayor gave her that she never got to really use, but was used on her. She really loved that knife. Wanted to do bad with it. Now she'll be doing good. A weird full circle.

speculating some continuity here ...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Again with the Aha! Spoilers for AtS S4 lately -- pr10n, 10:41:24 02/13/03 Thu

The first Buffy on FX last night was "Pangs" with Angel revisiting Sunnydale and the Chumash (I've been writing Shumash -- sorry anthropologists and avenging spirits) warriors who could only be killed with their own weapons.

Serendipity, right there, since Cordy says the Chumash buried the Soul-Eater.

So a big Shout Out to the Chumash, and hey thanks for delurking guys! Look out for the big rocky monster and the traitorous plum-pie holding its leash.

[> It was... -- Majin Gojira, 12:09:31 02/13/03 Thu

the bone-dagger made by the Beast for its master.

All I want to know is this...will Cordy don the Leather Pants of Evil? That would be nice.

[> [> Really?? For sure?? wow... -- WickedBuffy, 12:34:14 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> Confused Much.... Okay - can anyone tell me.... -- Briar Rose, 14:52:20 02/13/03 Thu

Now this is beyond me! I watched this last ten minutes over and over. I am just really confused at how we "the viewers" are supposed to take this:

The last we see Cordelia - she is down stairs in the lobby bleeding from an arrow through the thigh (or maybe the gut...)

We see Lilah running from Angelus. They made the angle shots wide enough that we never actually lose sight of the staircase to the hall she's in. In almost every shit of Lilah, the staircase is behind her path. There is a brief shot of HER facing the staircase, and there is no one there, because she isn't reacting to anyone.

But out of nowhere - "Cordelia" grabs her around the neck. Lilah says 'he's going to kill us all...' And Cordelia says 'that's why I let him out....' and stabs her in the throat with the Beast's Bone Knife.

Now.... The first time I saw this, I figured Cordy must have come up while Lilah was looking at the stairs and we weren't. But since it was Cordy, Lilah didn't react. But then I watch again and Cordy comes out of a closed room off another closed room. So is this ACTUALLY Cordy, or is Cordy still downstairs bleeding and a DoppleCordy is the one who killed Lilah?

I don't remember teleporting as one of Glowy Cordy's innate skills. So is Cordy the Sleeper, or are we supposed to think Cordy's the Sleeper, but the real Cordy is still bleeding downstairs and it's some type of "First Evil" transmagorphic "DoppleCordy" that takes out Lilah?

I am sooooooo confused!!!!!!

And now it's a THREE WEEK WAIT for any type of plot line to be shown! I am hating WB's scheduling this season!!!!

[> [> Leather -- Malathustra, 15:10:18 02/13/03 Thu

Leather pants? I honestly don't think so, though it would do a lot to further the image of pregnant television stars everywhere. What is she now -- 6 months along? Can't hide that kind of thing in leather, I wouldn't think.

[> [> [> Re: Leather isn't the worst -- pr10n, 15:32:51 02/13/03 Thu

The Leather Stretch-Panel Pants of Evil doesn't sound like Cordy the Lone Fashionable Wolf.

The Faux Fur Nursing Bra of Evil? The mind reels.

[> [> [> [> I think you've just started a whole new -- WickedBuffy, 15:59:08 02/13/03 Thu

K-Mart Fashion line for CordeliaWear! The possibilities! This opens up a whole new universe of opportunities for maternity clothing manufacturers.

more.... more.... (and would the Angel/Angelus line be the same or two different styles?)

Questions and Comments on Angel/Buff episodes -- Spike Lover, 08:26:35 02/13/03 Thu

Spoilers to those who did not see this week's eps.



Well, I admit I really did not see that coming with Cordy at all, but it makes perfect sense. (The real Cordy may still be up there.) (I so much liked Lilah better than Fred.)

And what is this with no new ep for 3 weeks?


Ok, I have some quibbles. 1) Why would 'Demon girl' (presumably Anya) tell Spike that Giles was the FE, when she had already found out that he wasn't?

2) WHERE DID THAT LINE OF BUFFY'S COME FROM: 'Do you think I still love him?' ???? Since when has she ever loved Spike? Never. She has vehemently denied it. In fact, I don't think they can just slip that under the carpet. That would be BIG NEWS.

3) They are being unfair to JM. Spike was just as bland as he could be this past ep. When he got his soul back, he seems to have lost his personality.

Does it bother anyone else?

4) I did enjoy the scenes with Giles. I am glad he has more to say, though I thought his conversation with Buffy about Spike came a bit late.

[> Response -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:51:39 02/13/03 Thu

Odds are Anya, Xander, Dawn, and Andrew left a note before leaving to see if Giles was the First Evil. Odds are Buffy and Spike got back first and found it.

Spike hasn't been bland the entirety of the time since he got his soul. At the very least, I wouldn't consider him bland during his period of insanity. Neither would I say that of him in "Sleeper" or "Never Leave Me". Other than those, well, I admit Spike hasn't had as much to do as he did last season. But that's mainly because he's no longer seeking out conflict. In Season Six Spike was constantly popping up, throwing off innuendo or snark as the situation might call for, and shagging Buffy. Here, he's no longer trying to push his involvement into Buffy's life, so he might seem bland compared to last season. But, this episode was primarily about Buffy, Wood, Andrew, and Xander. Everyone else, Spike included, had to take a backseat.

[> [> Yah, and now Anya gives the snarky remarks! -- WickedCursed, 10:38:56 02/13/03 Thu

I like her character more and more. While Spike did go a little bland lately, she's popping up more and more. But I thought Crazy-Spike was interesting - I kept trying to make some plot sense out of his ramblings, so it became a challenge whenever he was jabbering.

Well, the jabbering and his absolutely GORGEOUS curly white hair back then. ::sigh:: now his hair is bland, too. Maybe the basement humidity kept it curly like that.

I still think Anya is more than she appears right now, though!

[> Re: Questions and Comments on Angel/Buff episodes -- Malandanza, 11:24:05 02/13/03 Thu

"2) WHERE DID THAT LINE OF BUFFY'S COME FROM: 'Do you think I still love him?' ???? Since when has she ever loved Spike? Never. She has vehemently denied it. In fact, I don't think they can just slip that under the carpet. That would be BIG NEWS."

I think this is a case of Buffy doing a retcon rather than ME doing a retcon.

Buffy's reasoning goes something like this: Buffy is a good girl. Good girls don't have sex with people they don't love. Buffy had sex with Spike... Therefore, Buffy must have been in love with Spike.

Aside from some flawed premises, Buffy is denying that she used Spike in a loveless, purely sexual, attempt to escape (however briefly) from her ennui. (I should say that do I think Spike was definitely using Buffy as well -- he took advantage of her post-resurrection emotional trauma to score with the slayer, but Spike was evil and Buffy is good so her failing is more pronounced). She is saying now that she loved him, but love is really just a Buffy denial-euphemism for had sex with him.

I also noticed that Willow is pushing the romance again -- it seems that she has the opposite problem Buffy has. Buffy overidentifies with other people, taking their problems as analogous to her own, while Willow projects her feelings on to other people. Like back in Season Four when Willow was gung-ho for the Buffy/Parker romance (Willow and Oz were still very much the romantic and sexual couple) while when Riley came along, she favored caution (Willow and Oz had broken up). So Willow is now pushing Buffy/Wood because she's quite comfy with Kennedy.

[> [> Willow and Buffy's romances -- Sophist, 13:03:55 02/13/03 Thu

I also noticed that Willow is pushing the romance again -- it seems that she has the opposite problem Buffy has. Buffy overidentifies with other people, taking their problems as analogous to her own, while Willow projects her feelings on to other people. Like back in Season Four when Willow was gung-ho for the Buffy/Parker romance (Willow and Oz were still very much the romantic and sexual couple) while when Riley came along, she favored caution (Willow and Oz had broken up). So Willow is now pushing Buffy/Wood because she's quite comfy with Kennedy.

I have 2 problems with this:

1. I couldn't find any instance in which Willow was "gung-ho" for Parker. She did tease Buffy about him at the beginning of HLOD, but that doesn't seem to be what you have in mind. So.... what did you have in mind?

2. Willow specifically did encourage B/R. In The Initiative, she gave Riley hints about how to approach Buffy. In Pangs she encouraged Buffy's attraction to Riley on 2 different occasions.

I would say that, in general, Willow tends to reflect Buffy's own internal feelings about men. When Buffy is happy, Willow is happy. When Buffy is uncertain, Willow is uncertain. The interaction tells us about Buffy, not about Willow. It's what the best friend does -- ask shadowkat. :)

spike clearly does now negate angel (spoilers) -- 110v3w1110w, 12:03:43 02/13/03 Thu

there has always been talk of a prophecy in which the vampire with a soul plays a big part in the apocalypse well there is an apocalypse now and there is only one vampire with a soul now and so far he has played a big part in the apocalypse and from what was said by the first evil to Andrew his part isn't over yet and the prophecy never referred to Angel just a vampire with a soul i think it mean spike

[> AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Rob (just had to get that out of my system, sorry guys!), 12:14:32 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> LOL! Though... -- ponygirl, 12:41:01 02/13/03 Thu

I was thinking the other night about a concept that AtS introduced in The House Always Wins, that a destiny could be transferable. Not an idea I was crazy about and I didn't really like that episode, but it did make me wonder if Angel's destiny is different than Angelus', therefore leaving the Angel fate currently up for grabs.

[> Are you a betting person? (unspoiled spec) -- Caroline, 12:17:50 02/13/03 Thu

I'm unspoiled. But I would lay you odds that Angel gets re-souled. Any takers?

[> Re: spike clearly does now negate angel (spoilers) -- Corwin of Amber, 12:19:03 02/13/03 Thu

Then the Powers got lost on the way to Sunnydale because the prophecy you mentioned came to light on Angel. Kind of silly to bring it up on the wrong show, you know?

[> [> Re: spike clearly does now negate angel (spoilers) -- lunsea, 13:16:03 02/13/03 Thu

Then the Powers got lost on the way to Sunnydale because the prophecy you mentioned came to light on Angel. Kind of silly to bring it up on the wrong show, you know?

Forget that. All the stuff in the scroll of Abijian was about ANGEL!!! Angel even felt physically drawn to it.

Guess Spike was the one that they brought Darla back to torment. She never really did like him, especially after he screwed up getting the curse lifted. She just didn't realize she was supposed to go to Sunnydale. Her bad.

Now that the First Season for AtS is out on DVD, there is no excuse for this speculation to be flying. Those who don't know the full prophecy should just keep their fingers still. There is more to the prophecy than Shanshu.

[> I'm confused. How does that negate Angel? -- dream, 12:23:15 02/13/03 Thu

I don't know much about the prophecy (can someone fill me in on the details), but I'm willing to believe that it might refer to Spike rather than Angel. But how does that "negate" Angel? By negate I would assume you mean that some basic aspect of his character no longer makes sense. (For example, if we had a character who could use the blackest of magics for any purpose without suffering any consequences, that character would "negate" Willow, disrupting beyond repair an idea at the center of her character's arc.) Angel presumably does believe that the prophecy is about him, so he's just potentially mistaken, right?

[> sigh...explaining my quote again -- shadowkat, 12:38:20 02/13/03 Thu

Masq didn't have enough room at the top of the board to put the whole quote but if I remember correctly I said:

Angel and Spike are on parallel journeys that may indirectly intersect each other but do not in any way negate each other. Both can shanshu. There's nothing in the prophecy that says only one or the other can. And there's nothing to state that only one can be redeemed. They are different characters with different purposes. And different themes.

While Angel is about the disapproving father and family.
Spike is about the sick mother and women. While Angelus' modus operandi is killing families. Spike's was killing powerful women - slayers, or seducing and killing women.
Angelus - symbolizes the rage inside Angel at the world and his family and for being the outsider. Spike is William's rage at being rejected by women. Although I don't see Spike as being about rage so much. Angelus is motivated by a rage and need for family. Spike a need for love. Two completely different vamps with different journeys.

There is no reason to believe that just because Spike gets shanshued or redeemed Angel won't or vice versa. To think such a thing not only underestimates the writers but is a tad short-sighted. Just as it was short-sighted and an underestimation of the writers to think they couldn't ensoul Spike and make it different, because of Angel.

Hope that helps. If not? Oh well, I tried.

[> Re: spike clearly does now negate angel (spoilers) -- Mystery, 12:44:25 02/13/03 Thu

This might not necessarily be so...Spike could merely be a redundancy, you know since a soul is slippery thing, and Angel's messed things up by loosing it once before...They might just want Spike in the mix as a "spare" souled vamp.

Also I'm beginning to think that "The Powers that Be" are not really on the side of good. Think of how Buffy described Whistler (who I understand is an agent of the PTB)

BUFFY: What are you, some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil?

He was sent to even the score, not tip the scales...

which puts something else in my mind...

According to all the prophecies, Buffy should have stayed dead after her confrontation with the Master. Perhaps with Buffy dead, Angel would have killed the Master himself and redeemed himself. Instead, Xander brought Buffy back, and bring back Buffy upset the balance. Every season since season 1, the Big Bad has tried to claim someone close to Buffy. Season 2, evil took over Angel. Season 3, Faith fell to the darkside. Season 4, Adam tried to take Riley. Season 5, Glory tried to take Dawn. Season 6, Willow became evil. Season 7, looks like the FE is after them all.

My brain is going to explode (spoilers Calvary, Showtime and speculation) -- lunasea, 12:49:51 02/13/03 Thu

I admit it. I missed Evil Cordy completely because I was thinking (silly me) that the shows actually wanted to stand alone. Fury being co-producer on AtS made me wonder though. He is really busy with BtVS and with writing for both series. What is Fury's purpose: probably to make sure the two series line up and are completely compatible this season, as they both go out with a bang. My poor brain had to come up with a way to make Evil Cordy make sense. Here is my latest idea.

Let's just assume that the Buffyverse is actually a cohesive unit and that the First can implement Its plan in both LA and Sunnydale. What is that plan? Is it fire and brimstone and a nice physical apocalypse? I don't think so.

It wants to further the alteration of the mystical forces surrounding the Slayer line (for whatever reason). How to do this? Play with Spike. It gets Buffy to shy away from the fire that is her love and go against her nature. Play with Dawn. It makes it harder for Buffy to be her nature when Dawn is being an untrusting brat. Play with Willow. Willow is Buffy's best friend and if Willow is a basket case and Buffy doesn't help her, she is not being her nature. Send in the Ubervamp and pile all the Potentials on her. She gets to be Generalisimo Buffy and not her nature.

One more piece to the puzzle that is Buffy's heart, the original soulled vampire. The First tried to get at him one way before and It found out Buffy/Angel is stronger than that. Need a more devious way this time.

Last time, it's goal was to get Buffy to hate Angel. Angel wouldn't have been able to kill her. She just would have hated him for trying. Killing himself wasn't the plan, but it worked. We saw how Buffy felt about Angel doing this. By hating Angel, rather than loving, giving and forgiving, Buffy would have altered those forces that the First is taking advantage of.

Buffy's life was much more simple back then. She didn't have a sister. Her best friend wasn't a basket case. She didn't have a puppy dog who needed her help. The Watcher's Council handled the Potentials and she had Faith to help her with demons. Angel alone would have worked.

Why blow up the Watcher's Council? So that Buffy has to babysit the Potentials. In "Calvary" the Evil had all references to The Beast erased in this dimension. The same could be done for the First in regards to the Watcher's Council. Pile all this responsibility on Buffy and she becomes a dispenser of crappy speeches.

Back to erasing all those references. That is some serious mojo. It even erased Angel's memory. What could pull that off? The First, probably. In "Long Day's Journey" we saw The Beast returned quickly from some portal. We know that the First can do that.

So what is the purpose of The Beast? To bring out Angelus. The Beast is a minion of a greater evil (lets assume the First). Why would the First want to bring back Angelus? Surely there are more dangerous demons to reek havoc with.

Thing is Buffy Anne Summers doesn't love any of those demons. Buffy is incredibly busy in Sunnydale, even though you would think that the Slayer should be where the vampires are running wild. Notice the First made an appearance right before Angelus is freed and was going to have Andrew bump off the Potentials. (they know what episodes will air during sweeps). Think Andrew would have succeeded? You can plan for failure. Buffy can't leave now to go save the man she loves.

What does Buffy do when she can't handle something? She shies away from the fire that is her love, thus going further from her nature. LA is an elaborate plot that just makes Buffy close herself off more, the goal of the First. Is Angel integral to the story this season? I would say so. It took a bit more than just a few appearances and a nice song to work that part of the plan.

But what did it take exactly? Assume stuff that isn't canon and we are going to ultimately go down the wrong path. I've done it any number of times. Only thing better than being right about something is being seriously wrong, like I was about Cordy.

Who or what is Cordy now? Is she a Sleeper or controlled? I don't think so. She is just too deliciously evil. She is the First. We have a date and time with CwDP. That will probably be used to tie BtVS to AtS eventually. Around that time would be Spin the Bottle and Apocalypse Nowish.

The Eye talks about The First taking advantage of the alteration of the forces around The Slayer. Prior to CwDP Buffy had been living her nature. We get great scenes with Dawn, Willow and Cassie. We get Buffy able to overcome a spell in "Him" because she loves Dawn. We even get Buffy trying to help Spike by getting him out of the basement. We love that Buffy. That Buffy is love.

Then we get CwDP and she doubts herself again. She is back in the crypt and she has serious doubts about not only herself, but Spike. Everything is different after this episode. The First has been working on altering those forces more. Perhaps at one point, the reason for the date stamp, the First was able to take physical form or possess someone, such as Cordy.

On BtVS they are using the non-corporal clause as humorous proof that things are the First. That would make me think there is fine print to it. We will be looking for that on BtVS. If the First is on both shows, why not have the fine print on AtS?

Cordy has basically been dead. She was in the higher realms or heaven. Death is just another dimension on BtVS. If the First can bring Angel back from hell, maybe It can bring Cordy back from Heaven. It came back with her in a dormant mode. Can you imagine reading the mind of the First? It would make my mind explode also. All that Lorne got was what the First wanted.

Lorne read Angelus wrong in "Calvary." How could he do that? Could Angelus fake it? Maybe, but I doubt it. It would take some serious mojo, mojo that Cordy/First could do. Perhaps that is what she threw at him while he was in the cage.

The fun part in all of this is that the First/Cordy hasn't revealed herself to Angelus, yet. Why? Inquiring minds want to know. AND I WANT MY CROSSOVER

[> Exploding with you...... -- Briar Rose, 15:19:44 02/13/03 Thu

There is too much of a synchronicity to the plots of both shows to not expect a series of crossovers.

At the very least one of Joss's much defined "non-crossover crossovers." Like when Willow showed up in LA and never said a word. Or when the stories leave it a given that Angel and Buffy spoke/saw each other but the viewers don't see it at all.

I am of the opinion that this "Boss" Angelus is talking about is actually the First we are seeing and hearing about on BtVS. I also have to think that you are correct that Cordy is either an agent of the First as Jonathan is now, or that she's actually Cordy, but we have a second "Doppleganger Cordy" running around. As I posted below, something doesn't add up in HOW Cordy appears upstairs in a closed room behind Lilah, gives her bon mot speech and kills her.

And I am also wondering if WB is planning on canning Angel after this season. They are being given perfect outs to drop the show. When I combine this with the fact that they are really making Angel scheduling a small priority during Sweeps week. (no new Angel for the next two weeks?????) Bad ratings strategy unless you are already writing off the show.

[> [> About that Angel scheduling -- Dariel, 17:40:56 02/13/03 Thu

When I combine this with the fact that they are really making Angel scheduling a small priority during Sweeps week. (no new Angel for the next two weeks?????) Bad ratings strategy unless you are already writing off the show.

There is a strategy behind this scheduling. And since I'm assuming you're unspoiled, that's all I'm going to say!

Dariel (the slightly spoiled)

[> [> [> Re: About that Angel scheduling -- lunasea, 17:43:49 02/13/03 Thu

They have to time the crossovers. I am sure it is hard to do this on two separate networks and I am amazed they pulled it off.

My hope is that since AtS will end after BtVS that SMG can appear on AtS, since she will be finished with BtVS.

(Spoilers buffy 7.14) I knew it! [edited] -- David Frisby, 21:14:34 02/11/03 Tue

I knew it! Buff WAS in love with Spike!!!

What an episode (7.14)! And what a preview for the next one (7.15). I knew it!!! Buffy says "why does everyone around here think I'm still in love with Spike?"

"STILL"???? She's never admitted it before but here she implies it. The conclusion is that Buffy was indeed in love with Spike! I knew it.

The only question now is whether she still is!

I contend the affirmative (and their love will make ALL the difference)!~

God, I love this show. After watching the season one Angel dvd all day, I think after the dvds are released for all seasons for both series (and after they're complete), there will be no need for any further television on my part -- I'll just live in rerun heaven forever.

thank you joss

thank you mutant enemy

thank you cast and crew

etc etc etc

(gosh, it's nice to have a place to say something like this -- otherwise i'd just burst)

David Frisby

[> Let me say just one thing for now. -- VampRiley, 21:16:36 02/11/03 Tue

I loved the ending.

[rubs hands devilishly together, even though he knows of the future spoilers]


[> Okay. Here's something else (Spoilers for 7.14) -- VampRiley, 21:17:46 02/11/03 Tue

I find it funny that she'll admit it now, now that she's trying to move on. And I really do not like Wood's "I kill all I find until I find the one who killed my mum" attitude.


[> thanks for [removing] the dirty great spoiler in the subject line [subject line edited -- d'H] -- zantique, 21:21:20 02/11/03 Tue

yes I am excited about that too - pity I couldn't have just found out the old-fashioned way by watching the ep...

[> [> Sorry, I was thinking contention more than spoiler -- but you're right -- my bad. -- frisby, 05:08:48 02/12/03 Wed

It's hard to find the proper balance between creating a subject line that sounds interesting while not also being spoilage. Sorry about the spoilage.

[> [> [> that's ok - I've seen the ep now and all is well with the world :) -- zantique, 18:52:44 02/12/03 Wed

But yesterday I'd just spent ages lining up a 7.14 download, then came to the board in search of some non-spoilery ATPoBtVS&ATS goodness to get me through the wait and your post was at the top of the page and I just went all grrr-aaargh!

Although it was meant in a humorous sarcastic tone that is hard to imply online, short of typing: (/me says in a camp, wry tone with hands on hips and a roll of the eyes). (How the hell does Honorificus manage it? Maybe I need an evil twin... since Dopplegangbanging seems to be all the rage here...)

[> Re: (Spoilers buffy 7.14) I knew it! [edited] -- Majin Gojira, 21:36:55 02/11/03 Tue

Well, now...your statements, and those of Buffy, raise a lot of Issues.

Maybe she was in love with Spike back in the day. Does that change the nature of their past relationship in any way? PFFT! No. It was still bad for her and abusive towards him (which, he rather enjoyed). Do not condone the actions of that relationship based on that line alone.

She only admits it now, to herself and the group at large because she cannot hide it from them. I'm thinking she's feeling a little bit of Angel-itis in the Spike situation. She "loved" him (or, more appropriately, lusted), but knew that it was bad. Now, Spike has changed, is she wondering if it would still be bad? Probably. But, much like in Season 6, she does not want to admit nor deal with it right now. Too much is going on this time (as opposed to S6, when she didn't want to deal with anything

Would it still be bad? Maybe.

Don't start dancing Numfar's dance of joy quite yet, B/S shippers, their is still a lot of ground to cover before this is over.

[> I don't take it quite so literally... -- Dariel, 08:54:17 02/12/03 Wed

I don't think Buffy was in love with Spike last season, but I think she is now. The whole thing was a slip of the tongue--I'm sure she doesn't even realize that she said it.

[> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- Dochawk, 10:44:37 02/12/03 Wed

Actually she said "does everyone think I am still in love with Spike"

I think it means what it says, that everyone else thought she was in love with Spike and questions whether that feeling still exists. it says absolutely nothing about Buffy's feelings herself.

Shippers read waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stuff into simple lines.

[> [> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- acesgirl, 11:17:33 02/12/03 Wed

Actually, I thought she said "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" It's the "why" that's the key. Buffy's interpretation of what everyone else is saying is that they think she's in love with Spike, even though none of them have come out and said as much. It's interesting that that's her interpretation. All shippiness aside, it's a pretty big slip of the tongue and deliberate language on the part of the writers, IMO. Now, what it all means is anyone's guess, but I don't think we should discount those who want to read into it.

[> [> [> [> bottom line is ... -- frisby, 15:49:49 02/12/03 Wed

i may be blind or unable to see it right but i really don't understand how anyone can look at it all and not see that the two have been and still are in love with each other

different than she and angel, sure, but still love

if not "true" love then i wonder ....

oh well, though, as you say, the key point is what the writers intended with it...

[> [> [> Still, interesting phrasing (still spoiling First Date) -- Vickie, 13:36:51 02/12/03 Wed

Buffy said "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?"

The less ambiguous phrasing, assuming that she is not and never has been in love with Spike, would be "Why does everyone still think I'm in love with Spike?"

Buffy's choice of words may have been an unconscious revelation of something she denies. I sure hope not, but it's interesting.

Disclaimer: I am NOT a B/S shipper. I never thought she was in love with Spike (had feelings, big complicated feelings, sure). I was shocked to hear her say this, which implies that she might be/have been.

[> [> [> [> it "does" imply it (as you say) -- frisby, 15:52:09 02/12/03 Wed

yes, the implication is literally there, and intended by the writers at least,

and true in my eyes regardless

[> [> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- leslie, 14:31:44 02/12/03 Wed

"I think it means what it says, that everyone else thought she was in love with Spike and questions whether that feeling still exists.... Shippers read waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stuff into simple lines."

How could they all have thought she was in love with Spike before? They didn't know about the sexual relationship until it was well over, and when it was revealed, it was in the context of Spike's attempted rape, so they really weren't thinking much about love at the time. She presented the whole relationship to them as a huge mistake, wildly playing up the "I was out of my mind, numbed with despair, and I hate myself for it" card. They didn't think she was in love with Spike, they thought she was nuts and manifesting it in a very dangerous way. They could only have started thinking she was in love with him this season, seeing her reaction to him having a soul, which would not be "still" in love, it would be "does everyone think I'm suddenly in love with Spike [after everything that happened last year]?"

Anti-shippers are waaaaaaaay too prone to overlooking the fact that the characters on the show haven't seen everything the audience has.

[> [> [> [> which means what? that she was! (and is) -- frisby, 15:55:10 02/12/03 Wed

you don't state your conclusion, but isn't it that therefore she implies she "was" in love?

and still is (believing in him and all, that he can be good, as she argues with Giles) -- i think (and not just wish or hope)

[> [> [> [> [> If your hoping for a B/S finale -- Dochawk, 17:19:36 02/12/03 Wed

I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. There are far too many cool things coming to wait for only that, especially since its extremely unlikely that is what's going to happen. Spike sacrificing himself for the cause or for Buffy, that could happen. But ending the series with Spuffy, its not the final answer Joss wants to leave, Buffy riding off into the sunset with her attempted rapist is not the feminist conclusion he is looking for.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If your hoping for a B/S finale -- leslie, 21:21:24 02/12/03 Wed

I'm not expecting it. I'm looking at what has been said, in what contexts, and what the characters can be expected to know, and I think your interpretation is colored by your own dislike of the relationship.

I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is, it is possible for women to be raped by men they love. It is possible for people to have enormously complex feelings for each other that encompass love and not end up riding off into the sunset together.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If your hoping for a B/S finale -- lunasea, 09:03:14 02/13/03 Thu

it is possible for women to be raped by men they love.

It is not possible for the center of the Buffyverse to trust a man that would rape her. It is impossible for that center to love someone she doesn't trust.

Buffy isn't some "woman." She is a hero, not like you or me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Just a response, and trying not to react -- Deb, 01:31:37 02/13/03 Thu

. . .Spuffy, its not the final answer Joss wants to leave, Buffy riding off into the sunset with her attempted rapist is not the feminist conclusion he is looking for.

First, how do you know what the "final answer" that Joss wants to leave is? Are you spoiled?

Second, there seems to a misunderstanding about feminism for some people. Feminism is not about one way of think, believing and acting. Most people, when the word feminist is brought up, thinks about equal pay for equal work and shared child rearing and household responsibilities. To the right extreme of feminism is the Lesbian movement, which is not about sex per se but women becoming a driving, socio-political, socio-economic power by banding together in numbers. Of course, you will find the "biological" lesbian also. Just saw "Something Blue" for first time today. When Riley jokes that he was a Lesbian, he might not have been joking (but being Riley, he probably way joking). Some men are "lesbian." To the extreme left are the women and men who believe that gender roles are very specific, with appropriate behavior and duties (i.e. staying home and raising the kids). A feminist statement could include a wide range of endings.

Spuffy would be one feminist ending as would Spike becoming the first male slayer; Buffy marrying Wood and giving up slayering to rear children. Slayer and Vampire fighting side-by-side is quite a feminist statement.

This season has been interesting in its presentation of gender roles. We are seeing a more, not completely, balanced power relationship between Buffy and Spike. They fight side by side, and that conversation in the basement in KIM about getting away from the "pitter patter of girlier slayer feet" sets the tone of the scene as Buffy and Spike being parents to the SITs. The "white picket fences" comment in FD, and other comments alludes to a balance of family responsibilities.

There has been quite a lot of talk about Spike vs. Wood, but we are also seeing a Giles vs. Spike struggle going on this season. Spike acts like a Watcher in many ways. Giles feels the heat as represented in his comments to Buffy: 'You deserve better' 'You rely on him and he relies on you.' Giles has this father thing going with Buffy, and he sees de-chipped Spike as more than dangerous to the lives of everyone, but also as a danger to his influence over Buffy, and her replacement of relying upon him by Spike. Giles and Spike's verbal and nonverbal communication in FD mirrored one another at many points, beginning with the duet of "HeY!" to both being concerned about the course of action in taping the First, to both standing apart from the "Xander being gay" banter, and being much more serious.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Just a response, and trying not to react -- Pilgrim, 06:15:43 02/13/03 Thu

Yes, I too picked up on the Giles-Spike rivalry over Buffy, and I thought it was presented quite sensitively. Poor old Giles--his daughter is growing up and making important decisions without even consulting him. This is what he wanted--why he left SD last year--but it's got to be tough to live out the consequences. So many men fighting over this girl, between Giles and Spike seeking influence over her, and Wood and Spike seeking, what, her approval and attention maybe. Now that's a classic "feminist" problem--men fighting over the body of the woman. (Although I take your point about there being many feminisms.) How will Joss resolve? Maybe Buffy will kick all their butts (literally or metaphorically)--that'll teach them to try to possess her.

[> [> [> hmmm! maybe you're right -- frisby, 15:24:34 02/12/03 Wed

hmmm. i suppose you can read it that way, and that my earlier reading was not as clear-cut as i thought. the "still" could refer to only them and not her -- but even the ambiguity lends some support or at least hope for we shippers ---

--- only this season's finale will determine it

[> [> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- lunasea, 07:41:46 02/13/03 Thu

I think it means what it says, that everyone else thought she was in love with Spike and questions whether that feeling still exists. it says absolutely nothing about Buffy's feelings herself.

Shippers read waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stuff into simple lines.

It sounded much better than does everyone think that I am still screwing his brains out. :-D

The more they play the Spuffy line out and give it valuable screen time, the more hope I have for Buffy/Angel to actually get together. If Spuffy was going to happen, it wouldn't take much to get there. What do people want to see: whussy Spike and Buffy talk or for them to screw? They are pure chemistry.

Spike is a plot device for her to examine her abandonment issues. We started that with FD.

[> [> [> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- Dochawk, 09:08:32 02/13/03 Thu

Ok. I can agree with that. You think that when Joss says back to the Beginning, he really means it, eh?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't take it quite so literally... -- lunasea, 09:23:46 02/13/03 Thu

You think that when Joss says back to the Beginning, he really means it, eh?

The wheel goes around and the only thing that changes is the dirt it accumulates along the way.

We have two options:

1. since we couldn't have crossovers, ME could write Spike to play the part that they envisioned Angel playing when they set up the arc years ago. (like they wrote the new-Improved Riley for S6)

2. But wait. We can have crossovers, as long as they are integral to the plot. Why settle for love when we have true love?

What is stronger, getting over someone and moving on (shown by Spuffy) OR going back, making "amends" for the wrongs you have done (like in regards to Faith), and working things out?

Buffy cannot end up with Spike for one simple reason, he won't leave her. She cannot deal with her abandonment issues this way. He is in the lead because he is there.

[> [> Just a slip or a freudian slip? (7.14 spoilage) -- frisby, 15:19:41 02/12/03 Wed

I think it was a freudian slip. More to the point, it was not a slip at all with regard to the writers putting those words in SMG's mouth. They were letting us know, just as having the emerging ubervamp's arm cut off let us know more are possible from the seal. I think, because of the upcoming redemption matters this season, the writers were establishing their love, and erasing any doubt.

so there. (or maybe i'm just engaged in wishful thinking)

[> [> [> Freudian slaps (3.22-7.14 spoilage, future spec - being very careful here... :) -- zantique, 18:59:05 02/12/03 Wed

I think, because of the upcoming redemption matters this season, the writers were establishing their love, and erasing any doubt.

Agreed - although don't you think they've been doing this from the beginning of the season? Having just rewatched Lessons, the big puppy dog look Buffy gives Spike when she first finds him in the basement (and in so many subsequent S7 scenes) says it all, along with the fact that she temporarily abandons her search for Dawn to spend time with him.

Even in S6, the things that drew her to Spike were qualities of love, not lust. He was the only one who understood her, the only one to not abandon her, always there for her, etc. Buffy has huge issues with abandonment since everyone she's loved and depended on (parents, lovers, Giles) has left her at some point (and Dawn's persecution complex re abandonment is a mirror of this too)

Believing that everyone will abandon her leads her to attempt to force them to do so as a test of their love ("I believe you're going to leave me. I'm going to abuse you until you do. Oh look I was right") So she could only allow herself to really feel for Spike after he too left but returned - the only one to "pass the test" (poor lovesick bastard...)

I still can't help worrying that ME will do something horrible to kill off Spike - most probably forcing Buffy to do it herself. Even if this is one of the less likely options because Spike is just too much of a damned good character to kill off, charismatic, major-character vamps don't stay dead long in the Jossverse...

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