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Sudden thought about Gwen Raiden (Spoilers for ATS 4.2) -- Gyrus, 14:22:54 02/27/03 Thu

Does anybody think that Lightning Lass is a heck of a lot like Jhiera, the Flame Lady from "She"? I remember reading that they were going to bring Jihera back at some point; now I'm wondering if Gwen's story arc was originally Jhiera's.

Or is this idea just my brain's way of putting off reading the incredibly boring article that's in front of me?

[> My guts say no. -- Arethusa, 14:35:09 02/27/03 Thu

(I have talkative entrails.) This is purely my own opinion, but I don't think so. Jhiera was more ruthless and, uh, prinecess-y. Not to mention boring. I think Gwen's part of the X-Men comic book tradition, while Jhiera is more Flash Gordon. Gwen got her very own backstory and I think her character has more possibilites for the exploration of otherness, being outside of society, than Jhiera's character. Plus, I got really sick of seeing her breasts in that cut-away costume.

[> My guts say yes -- CW, 15:10:33 02/27/03 Thu

I think Gwen was introduced to fill the very slot that Jihera failed in, a superhuman female who Angel could be attracted to, but could never quite trust, because her motives were not in sync with his.

[> I always got the impression... -- Masq, 15:24:15 02/27/03 Thu

That the story ME was going to do with Jiera ended up going to Gunn. They were going to introduce Jiera to be a heroic outsider to the group who Angel would have run-ins with from time to time. They wanted a minority actor in the part. Since Jiera didn't go over with fans, they tried again with Gunn. Gunn was originally hostile with Angel, and then an outsider-for-hire with A.I., then eventually part of the group.

I don't mind seeing a continuing story with Gwen, although I don't think they need yet another employee at A.I. An semi-untrustworthy ally is better.

One question, tho: does Gwen ever change her outfit?

[> [> Re: I always got the impression... -- aliera, 17:05:52 02/27/03 Thu

it was a work uniform...very comic booklike. I would like to see her continue (althought agreeing not part of the gang/family yet)although I'm leery about the romantic angle. I like her. She balances out Fred and ?Cordy, plus she metanarates and voices/sees things. Potential advantage of an outsider. Which probably means she has a short tragic future...

I'm trying to read ep analyses from season two so I understand the backstory better. One of the things that's being highlighted is actually Gunn's similarities to Angel. The internalized rage. The feeling of being an outsider. The history informing the now. Leading when you're fighting a losing battle. Sense of responsibility for family. Down on teamwork. I'm sorry they didn't devote the development to his character that they could of (Warzone/Untouched?). I'm reading that the plot device issue was a problem as early as season two? He's one of the characters that seems like a caricature at times now? Maybe just me. Like I said I'm still trying to catch up.

[> [> [> You're reading the season 2 ep analyses before I send you the tapes? -- Masq, 17:49:39 02/27/03 Thu

They're done, btw. Just need to double check them and should have them in tomorrow's mail.

[> [> [> [> Re: yeah is that a problem? -- aliera, 05:21:19 02/28/03 Fri

I thought you would assume that since I was reading TCH's thread on eps 2.?-2.?

Ummm erp mutter mutter...did I mention that I like to read (more than a million times?)...I'm reading Chief Seattle's reviews... I like him. I don't agree with everything though. Sorry he had to stop writing. I didn't realize you wanted me to wait...I'll go stand in the corner now. Last year when I found the board shortly after shadowkat...she in fact recommended it, I downloaded all your work on both shows and the rest of the site, including the archives, and spent a very happy couple of days reading everything so if you're worried that I spoiled myself I already was in a certain sense. Ben, is another story, he hasn't seen anything yet.

I also like the screening room but the annotations only except I don't understand how they can devote paragraphs to the history of ding dongs or twinkies or whatever and only a byline to Yeats. So there's still a lot of room for what Rob is doing when he has time to do Angel. I like Angel's Acolyte for an ep preview while I'm waiting (and waiting but thank you pysche) for the transcripts. But because she (AA) paraphrases the dialogue my copies of the previews get pretty marked up making changes and additions. I wish there were shooting scripts available. I wish Joss would talk more about things of importance.

Reading isn't seeing. You can't replace the shows with text. So your work on the tapes is very very much appreciated. It is a personal mystery why I lost interest in the show that year given that I'm finding it so intriguing now. Someday if I have time (HAHA) I'd like to go back and watch the Angel eps and the Buffy eps side by side because like Age I'm being struck by the way each series enrichs the other. I'm already in love with what they were doing in Season 2. But I read everything I know about...then I go on and research the backround of the references. I can't always find everything. Just pieces. Like the ensouling spell Cordelia used with the soul eater. In degera...fortis mundi. Kesta sartuum...chimera nihilio. Live...brave the wall. Destroy illusion? I lack understanding of latin. And why Kesta? So every layer I uncover seems to lead to more questions.

And I still don't understand why there isn't more being done on Angel given the richness of the show (although I'm not trying to open a comparison thread again I hasten to add)...but there's enough now for journals and books like we have for Buffy. JMHO.

Anyway thanks again for the tapes...very much looking forward to them. And I'll tell Ben. It will brighten his week too, after the discomfort of the braces.

[> Woa, her last name is Raiden? -- Traveler, 21:03:09 02/27/03 Thu

Suddenly Mortal Kombat flashback ensues. Ah, now she makes much more sense. Kind of. Where do her powers come from, anyway? They don't seem to fit into any of the previous mythology.

[> [> Re: Woa, her last name is Raiden? -- Gyrus, 07:23:12 02/28/03 Fri

The origin of Gwen's powers hasn't been explained; we only know that she has had them since childhood. I agree with you that they don't really fit in the the rest of the show's mythology, which is the main reason I don't like her. (That, and the whole surrogate-Jhiera thing that made me start this thread.)

Speculation on The First and The First Slayer -- David Frisby, 14:41:47 02/27/03 Thu

We learned an episode or two ago that the three shaman began the slayer line by arranging for a demon's heart of darkness to violate a young girl and somehow create the slayer line. Buffy refuses a repeat of this.

Might that original demon have been The First, such that The First and The Slayer Line have been connected all along? The source of the power of the slayer is to be found in darkness, and The First is that which even the darkness fears, but perhaps The First somehow receives power everytime a slayer slays a demon or vampire or monster. The First is also the cause of all evil. Somehow, the relation of The First to The Slayer Line is responsible for maintaining the balance of good and evil. But it's now time to end that balance.

Another approach -- why does The First want to end the slayer line? Or again, what is the relation of the source of the power of the slayer line to the The First?

Six episodes to go! Will ME be able to pull it all off? Tying everything up into a knot that will exist forever within itself? Somehow, love and redemption play into all this too. And in the end, will it be Angel or Spike?

David Frisby

[> Re: Speculation on The First and The First Slayer -- aliera, 16:24:58 02/27/03 Thu

Might that original demon have been The First, such that The First and The Slayer Line have been connected all along?

It's funny that you mention this because it crossed my mind after reading cjl's finale spec. That in some way this is the answer to the finale and how Buffy might overcome the First that it won't be a defeat in the traditional sense. I keep coming back to the line (paraphrased) that what she does only makes it stronger. ;-)

[> [> Re: "Restless" - Speculation on The First and The First Slayer -- Angelina, 17:38:08 02/27/03 Thu

This is really interesting. The First. I was watching Restless the other night, and I believe Buffy referred to the First Slayer as "The First." It made me sit up and take notice! The theme of Season 7 "Back to the Beginning," The First Slayer, The First Evil. Remember Willow saying in Lessons, "It's All Connected" - The Earth - Mother Gaya....And how the First Slayer was CHAINED TO THE EARTH. Oh. This has to be leading somewhere right? Or am I delirious with grief?

[> [> [> Re: "Restless" - Speculation on The First and The First Slayer -- Vickie, 22:42:48 02/27/03 Thu

I believe that Buffy, in response to what Tara says (speaking for "The Primitive") says "The Slayer." And then Tara, again speaking for "The Primitive", says "The first."

It has always been terribly ambiguous, but definitely a connection of sorts.

[> [> [> [> Re: Speculation on The First Slayer (S3-5spoils for all) -- iconography, 09:59:00 02/28/03 Fri

What if the creation of the First Slayer was an augmentation spell-- like what happened when Jonathan became the paragon in Season 4.

Only instead of being immediate, the spell was cumulative-- and as Buffy has gotten better and better, unstoppable (even by death)-- so the Big Bad has also had to get more and more powerful. Then only by giving up her power will the equilibrium be restored. Maybe by joining with Giles, Willow and Xander to fight Adam (which was the catalyst for the introduction of the First Slayer), Buffy upset the balance more than we knew. What happens to an augmented augmentation spell?

Or maybe the series will end with us thinking that all of this has existed in Buffy's mind (ie when she went catatonic after Glory got Dawn) and she will wake up wearing a strait jacket in a mental institution.

[> Re: Why would the First want to End the Slayer line? (speculation) -- Mystery, 06:28:44 02/28/03 Fri

I was just watching "The Replacement" and the whole concept of splitting one being into two, killing one will kill them both...

Maybe the First Evil and the First Slayer are connected in that way. Since the Slayer power, the essense of the First Slayer keeps getting reborn in another host, that means the the essense of the First Evil has to find another Big Bad to work through.

When Buffy came back the last time, she was called back to be the champion of the people, and the spell probably imbued her with Slayer essense. Buffy's first death passed all of the Slayer onto Kendra then Faith. I always believed that from season 1 to season 5 Buffy wasn't the Slayer. She was the Guardian of the Hellmouth. Here's why I think this: Buffy original role in the Master saga was that by going down there and getting drunk by the Master gave him the strength to get loose from the Hellmouth prison. Her BLOOD opened the portal. Now she was supposed to stay dead. If she had stayed dead, Angel would have gone and avenged her, killed the Master and stopped the badness. Angel would have never lost his soul by making with the Smoochies, so Druscilla (and Spike) would have tried to raise Acathla, and Angel would have stopped them, blah blah blah...

But Buffy was brought back by Xander, the Heart of the Scoobies. She defeated the Master, and stop Acathla. According to Whistler, Angel should have done that, but Buffy, by defying prophecy, through all prophecies around her and the Hellmouth out the window. All because she was brought back by her Heart (Xander).

Since Buffy's blood initially opened the Hellmouth (partially, kind of like how Jonathan opened it partially), she was able to subsitute her blood for Dawn's to close it. Then Dawn also cried as Buffy fell, probably reinforcing the closing, much like Andrew's tears closed the seal.

Then Buffy get resurrected by her Spirit, Willow. By being brought back by her spirit and heart, echoes of the First Slayer being given power by the demon's spirit and heart, Buffy's newest resurrection disrupted things enough for the First Evil to start his Potential slaughter. He wants to make sure that everything that is The First Slayer gets trapped in one person: Buffy.

Now why would the First Evil want to kill it's other half, The First Slayer, when killing her means killing it?

The First Evil as Cassie told Willow already:
CASSIE: (mocking) "Oh, baby, you left such a big hole. It hurt so bad." (cold) You don't know hurt. This last year's going to seem like cake after what I put you and your friends through and I am not a fan of easy death. Fact is, the whole good-versus-evil, balancing the scales thing- I'm over it. I'm done with the mortal coil. But believe me, I'm going for a big finish.
WILLOW: From beneath you, it devours.
CASSIE: Oh, not it. Me.

The First Evil's attitude was reflected through season 6 with Buffy: It's sick of fighting. It's sick of going through the motions. It wants out. It can't die until the First Slayer's essense is gone from the Earth. Spike one time said that every Slayer has a death wish, where they are just sick of fighting.

SPIKE: Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later it's gonna catch you...And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty but because you're just a little bit in love with it. Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day. That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: what's it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death wish...Even you...The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is you've got
ties to the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting off the inevitable. Sooner or later, you're going to want it."

The First Slayer tells Buffy that Death is her Gift...emphasizes that The Slayer doesn't have friends or family...why? Because those are ties to the world. Things that make you put off the envitable Death, all the First Slayer's successors recieve. Their Gift. That thing that makes all the fighting stop.

The Firsts, Evil and Slayer, do not have this luxury. The First Slayer knows it has to protect the Earth forever, it can't allow it's essense to stay in one person for very long. It has to move on, to a fresh soul, a fresh person, and that person needs to die before slaying gets old and the deathwish begins to affect the spirit of the First Slayer. The First Evil is counting on that.

The First Evil wants to die and the only way that's happening is if the Slayer line is gone.

[> [> Re: Why would the First want to End the Slayer line? (speculation) -- maddog, 11:38:55 02/28/03 Fri

That has to be the best theory on the First I've heard yet. It makes sense...there aren't any loopholes that I can see. And it actually fills in holes that other theories over the past few seasons that have been bugging us all. Well done Mystery.

[> [> Re: Why would the First want to End the Slayer line? (spoilers for Buffy and AtS) -- maddog, 11:47:56 02/28/03 Fri

So in that line of thinking, are we to assume the first has been behind everything on AtS as well? Because if it weren't for Cordy and the Demon(though I've yet to figure out which one is higher up on The First's chain of command) then there would be no need for Angelus and without Angelus would they ever bother going to get Faith? If Faith rots in jail then she'd never end up in the mix of things back in Sunnydale and the First would have to work much harder to kill the "real" slayer. Now she'll conveniently end up back Sunnydale with a few episodes remaining, just as Buffy and the rest are ready to take on the First. Does that make sense?

What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- Ixchel, 17:26:19 02/27/03 Thu

By this I don't mean what you hope happens, but rather what caliber of episodes do you hope for and what do you expect?

I hope for JW to write 7.21 as well as 7.22 (I'm greedy). Even better, 7.20 also (no disrespect to the other writers intended). And it would be ideal (JMHO) if the action-packed portions occupied 7.19 - 7.21. Leaving 7.22 (or at least half of it) for "closure" with the characters since this is the end.

I'm also hoping for 7.22 to be on a level with OMWF, TG, TB, Restless and Hush. And 7.21 to be on a level with Selfless, FFL, WAY, GD1/2, Becoming 1/2 and PG.

So am I setting myself up for disappointment? Am I asking too much? Considering JW's track record, I really don't think so.

I'm going to miss BtVS terribly. Not AtS though, because I simply refuse to believe it won't be back in the fall.


[> Need you even ask? -- Honorificus (Prognosticateur Extraordinaire), 22:59:25 02/27/03 Thu

Thus far, Buffy's actually been doing a pretty good job of rushing around, putting out the First's little fires. Not bad. I'm willing to admire her for that. However, she doesn't stand a chance when true Hell is unleashed. Nor, for that matter, do her little friends. What do I hope for?

Xander: Death, and the messier, the better. Best of all, of course, if it comes at the hands of

Willow: Go dark again, honey. You were so much more interesting and better dressed then. Kill the carpenter in an exceptionally messy way while he's giving you another shmoopy Yellow Crayon speech.

Spike: Lose the soul, keep the leather jacket, and turn

Dawn: I've changed my mind on her, largely because her fashion sense has improved so greatly this season. Wouldn't she just be the sweetest little vampire imaginable? And then she could turn

Wood: who needs to live forever in his ultra-smooth, stylish way. And he in turn could kill

Andrew: who must die, and now.

Anya: She once had such promise, and now it's all wasted. There's no good trying to redeem her to evil anymore, so let her die at the hands of

Buffy: Now, here's potential if I've ever seen it. She finally gives in to the power she's been denying herself and goes completely evil, forsaking the life of the Good. She takes the demon aspect into herself and joins with the smooth, sexy foursome of DarkWillow, Spike, Wood, and Dawn to wreak havoc upon the newly-demonized world. Along the way, they run into

Faith: who simply must join them. How could she not, after all? The former Slayers join forces in the reborn Chaotic Earth to rule over those they used to kill. Which, come to think of it, sounds like my life story.

Giles: Must stay alive at all costs. Vamp him, too, and let loose the Ripper. Grr!

As for the Potentials, they simply must die. I suppose Willow can keep Kennedy to play with if she must, but the rest of the mewling herd needs to be slaughtered in the worst possible way.

Doesn't that just sound sweet?

[> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- Valheru, 01:41:10 02/28/03 Fri

It all depends on how Joss is going to end the story. If he wants a simple, introspective ending, it should be a big "Becoming"/"Graduation Day"/"The Gift" penultimate chapter with a "Restless" or a reverse-"WTTH" finale. If he wants it to end bang-like, then a "Restless"/"Weight of the World"/"IOHEFY" ending with a "The Gift"/"Graduation Day". If I had my choice for the last 6, it'd be:

7.17 - A final Xander standalone, preferrably a "The Zeppo" sequel, to wrap up or help wrap up the normal-lives of Willow, Giles, Xander, Anya, and Andrew.

7.18 - Similar to "Surprise" and "Bad Girls," the episode that sets the whole season-arc toward the finale; the first of a two-parter.

7.19 - Similar to "Innocence" and "Consequences," the episode that draws the battle lines and puts the character plot lines heading toward the finale; second of a two-parter.

7.20 - Like a "Passion"/"IOHEFY" or "Choices"/"The Prom" mixture, ending with the speeding-towards-the-end segment like "Spiral." The good guys will get in one roughly collective mindset (which will be disturbed in 7.21) courtesy of one despicable act by the bad guys. Wraps up any loose character plots.

7.21 - The Big Battle. No holds barred rumble.

7.22 - A sequel to "Restless." Xander, Willow, Giles, and Buffy have another dream, but this time, their minds will be able to cross over into each other's dreams, as will the minds of Dawn, Anya, Faith, Spike, and whoever else is left or available. Has another mammoth battle toward the end. Ends with the conclusion of Buffy's story. Grr-Argh demon mumbles something about cheese.

7.23 - Joss has locked himself in Buffy's bathroom, continuing to produce the show on a series of transparencies on Giles's overhead projector. Fox thinks it's the Animated Series, so it runs it on Saturday morning. Will air after 7.25, 7.31, 7.24, and 9.3, but still makes sense. Show goes on to become the highest rated show on television, wins a record number of Emmys. Because it's still technically BtVS and not the Animated Series, UPN and the WB sue Fox. Joss, in a fit of stir-craziness, asks Stephanie Romanov to sic Wolfram and Hart on all three of them. Strangely, he ends up winning, is awarded ownership of every network parent company (and the Playboy channel). Buffy movies, music, books, and TV (all made by Joss) all hit #1 at the same time. Joss is appointed "god." He is killed by an aged ex-librarian, a teenage girl, and some guy on PCP outside the local high school. There were no witnesses. A Sarah McLachlan song plays in the background. Fade to...

Executive Producer

The world then ceases to exist.

[> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- lunasea, 07:03:58 02/28/03 Fri

the unexpected.

I want something better than anything I can come up with. I want something different than I anything I have come up with.

I want it to be better than anything we have seen yet. Not just on-level with previous great episodes, but surpass them in ways we couldn't ever dream about.

I want so little :-)

[> [> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- maddog, 11:03:28 02/28/03 Fri

But you know what...that's where Joss is at his best. Cause he's thought of what we're thinking...and he's way beyond that by now. He's never ceased to amaze me. His season finale's have been exceptional and while I've already said my piece below I'm sure he'll surpass it a million times over. Minds that creative are just hard to find.

[> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- Gyrus, 08:08:26 02/28/03 Fri

I hope for JW to write 7.21 as well as 7.22 (I'm greedy). Even better, 7.20 also (no disrespect to the other writers intended).

Hasn't it already been announced that Marti Noxon will write 7.21 and Joss will write 7.22?

[> [> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- maddog, 11:07:42 02/28/03 Fri

I read that somewhere...think it might have been Spoiler Slayer...not sure.

[> Re: What do you hope for in BtVS final episodes? (no spoilers, no spec) -- maddog, 10:49:55 02/28/03 Fri

In a perfect world they find this ingenious way to disable the first from doing whatever it had in mind(cause let's face it, we're talking about pure evil...it doesn't die) and do so with little to no casualties ie as long as anyone I care about doesn't die. But fortunately I'm not that stupid and for the good of the storyline Joss isn't either. He knows what makes a good final ending. It'll fun and action packed...but it'll also be sad and heartbreaking...because they all won't make it. And he keeps talking about how what does come of the ending will give the viewers an even better lesson than he's ever tried to give in the 7 year run. So I'm excited...slightly hesitant(as I hate watching any of the good guys die), but overall am looking forward to it.

[> [> Sorry, post above has vague speculation...you just can't think of the finale without it -- maddog, 10:52:24 02/28/03 Fri

[> [> Not sure about this... (Spoilers through CwDP) -- Gyrus, 12:52:28 02/28/03 Fri

In a perfect world they find this ingenious way to disable the first from doing whatever it had in mind(cause let's face it, we're talking about pure evil...it doesn't die)

Evil itself, no, but the First might be able to die. In "Lessons", it said, "I'm done with the mortal coil," implying that it's not planning to stay in the world of the living much longer. The question is, how does it plan on leaving, and who is it going to take with it?

[> Thanks, everyone. I actually wasn't expecting this much of a response. :) -- Ixchel, 15:55:50 02/28/03 Fri

Honorificus, I could like your scenario (VampDawn would be interesting to say the least). So when is your biography coming out? Sounds like a page turner. ;)

Great ideas, Valheru. And that last part, LOL! Especially since the idea of no more BtVS has me feeling (just a little) that a world has ended.

Live in hope, lunasea! I'm thinking maddog has an excellent point and your wishes for the finale will come true.

Gyrus, well damn (no offense to MN intended), but I was hoping with it being the last few episodes and all... It probably doesn't matter much, since I'm sure JW will be deeply involved with every little detail (the finishing touches on his masterpiece).

I'm with you maddog, excited but slightly anxious.

Special thanks to Honorificus and Valheru for making me laugh when the news of no more BtVS (and no Faith spin-off) has me somewhat down.


The Slayer's are very similar to vampires? -- F.E., 17:28:30 02/27/03 Thu

In the previous episode of Buffy, the slayer is fused with a demon spirit like a vampire. They have similar strength's and abilities , also are connected to the darkness. They are predator's like animals and love the hunt. Also Dracula called Buffy kindred stating vampires are a similar species.

[> I agree -- Clen, 08:29:45 02/28/03 Fri

for the man/monster angle reason

[> Re: similar to vampires? A Little Off-topic Spoilers S5-7 to present. -- Age, 13:06:23 02/28/03 Fri

Season five took the necessary step of having Buffy acknowledge fully to herself that being human means death is something we cannot fight as an external enemy like a vampire, but is part of who we are. In the season opener Buffy is doing just that: she's getting up, like a vampire, at night to hunt down those creatures first before they have the opportunity to kill her, with the idea that if she's fast enough, powerful enough, a beast enough, she'd be able to live forever, defeating even death itself. In becoming more like a vampire (with the parallel made to Dracula) Buffy then assumes more of the metaphorical meaning of the wish to be immortal and be the perpetual Peter Pan/child. The meaning ascribed to Dracula then gets split into two characters: Dawn and Glory, the former representing the perpetual girl that Buffy wants to remain, and the latter representing the predatory, powerful, beast-like means by which she would achieve her continuing childhood, ie by becoming as if a god. However, the split between the two is also between human and hellgod. Buffy cannot really remain the girl without assuming the power of the the hell god, ie remaining a girl is an illusion that gets destroyed once Dawn is exposed as Glory's key( safe home life becomes slayer life). In fact Glory shows us what Buffy the girl would become if she decided to assume more power and be immortal: a person without substance, having others do her bidding while she concerned herself with matters of appearance. In a season arc about mortality/parenthood, Buffy lets go of Dawn as symbol of perpetual childhood and begins to treat her more as daughter, taking the final journey we all take, undoing the journey that Glory wants to make home. The journey backwards as symbolized by Glory's desire to go home is transformed into the journey of sacrifice that one generation makes for the next, with Dawn as daughter/next generation and symbolic human left to represent what Buffy chose to become through accepting her own mortality. And, as this week's 'Buffy' ep reiterates through Andrew, we cannot be as if gods; we are mortal.

So, yes, Buffy as slayer and the vampires in general and specifically at times are very much akin.

If we look at the current season, OnM made reference to the continuing allusions to films. It is possible that the medium is being alluded to as much as the content of the films themselves. Indeed in 'Get It Done' there's a device for projecting shadows( a rudimentary cinematic device, uh did anyone else think of the film, 'Jumanji' with the idea of playing a game, in this case of being an army, and then going into the game?) and in 'Storyteller' there is the ever present camera. What it seems to me is the allusion to film is being used to reinforce the nature of the First Evil, an ephemeral projection of the darker impulses of the humanity. But, as a contrast to the intent of film art, the First Evil, instead of bringing the dead to life, and delivering truth to the living, wants to make the dead of the living, turning people into film, which is fixed and scripted, ie shadows on a screen. And this brings me somewhat to the connection to your question about slayers and vampires. While I'm off topic a bit, the shadowmen of 'GIT', like vampires and the FE, use demonic nature in order to have someone else fight their battles for them (as vampires prey on the living because as perpetual Peter Pans they are either incapable or unwilling to meet the struggle of living themselves, remaining shadows, in the shadows, of the shadows.) Further, Buffy had gone to see the shadowmen for knowledge, ie to become enlightened. But all they could offer her was more shadow until there would have been all darkness and no seeing, all power without wisdom, as perhaps the FE wants?(shadowmen and shadow Big Bad) In this way, the slayer, like the vampires, is that impulse towards power to the sacrifice of all else as symbolized by the throwaway human being the demonic power is attached to.

This being so, the contrast between the slayer and the vampire is of course that the slayer is still attached to a living human being and further a female human being representing the feminine principle. The slayer then can be(and has been) used to represent the aggressive power of women that has been traditionally labeled as masculine(shadowmen as males)(and therefore culturally repressed in women until recently as unfeminine).

Of course another main difference between vampires and slayers is that the vampires seem more to choose their fate while the slayers have theirs chosen for them. It's not always the case that the vampires willingly take the blood in order to be turned, symbolizing, I guess, how people can be broken by others, that becoming vampire-like is not always a conscious desire. The slayers, specifically Buffy, as other posters have pointed out, represent us in this lottery of life. We have had no choice in our being born, our DNA, our location, our upbringing, and yet in adolescence, as we grow more powerful and aware of our coming role as adults, we are suddenly, it seems, 'chosen' to take responsibility for that which we had little or no choice in making, namely ourselves and society. If we don't take responsibility, if we remain perpetual Peter Pans, vampires, then the human world gets destroyed. Buffy's being chosen is, to situate it in time, a documentation of the embrace of aggressive power by women in a post patriarchal society, but it's also universal and refers to how we are all chosen in adolescence and whether we can assume responsibility for ourselves, or whether, like the vampires, we try to remain children, giving into the impulse towards power, and killing off our humanity; or whether we give up altogether, saying it's not my life, my world, and then just live by the script of DNA, upbringing and circumstance like the dead shadows/possessed puppets of the First Evil.

Anyway, I think I've diverged from the intent of the subject. Hope that adds to the discussion.


[> [> questions + thoughts on vampires (spoiler from S2) -- Clen, 14:25:42 02/28/03 Fri

As regards to the contrasts, I am inclined to agree. Of course, Buffy isn't really a living human being as we would know one, not really. She's been dead for months. Buffy herself then, is ever so slightly closer to vampire. She's even been fed on numerous times. The only thing missing is her feeding on something. But as for Slayers in general, yes quite alive. And yet, the death vampires go through is not the same as our death, really. If the vampire just feeds, it's over. But if the victim feeds in return, whatever the substance is in the vampire's blood takes a few days to reassert itself over the human host.
I wonder, can a vampire feed on you, not to death, and you feed on them, and still turn?
So, the candidate must experience a special death before becoming a vampire. And yet, so does the Slayer. It can already be predicted in advance who will be a Slayer and who won't, but for a candidate to become the Slayer, the Slayer must die. In a sense, candidates must also "experience" a special death before turning; experience not in the direct sense of course, but one imperceptible to the candidate, though not imperceptible to the PTB. In this way, vampires and Slayers share some issues. Of course, Slayers do not make other Slayers, it's not enough to even clone yourself, as we see with Dawn. But in their relation to life and living, there are certain parallels.

Also, vampires don't often choose their fate either, they really tend to get chosen. I'm reminded of the people that wanted to become vampires in S2, they didn't get what they wanted, right? Most, if not all, vampires in the show did not choose but were chosen. In regards to taking the other vampire's blood, it may not be an easy choice, it may even be quite involuntary, since the dying often get thirsty. This is only wild speculation on my part, but as a person is dying, fluids like blood and maybe water get pulled back to vital areas, like the brain. Someone being drained to death might feel an irresistible urge to take in fluids. Another possibility is that there is a mild narcotic in the vampire's saliva that restrains them from screaming out in pain, and might deaden their ability to make rational choices, further reducing their ability to turn down the bad blood. So, vampires often don't choose but are chosen as well.

The title of the final episode of "Buffy"... (title spoiler only--no plot revealed in title) -- Rob, 18:12:45 02/27/03 Thu

It's called "Chosen."

I love that title!


[> And a very funny (non-spoilery) quote from Joss... -- Rob, 18:17:34 02/27/03 Thu

"I'm proud of what this show means (except for that whole weird 'Feminist' thing people attached to it. What was that all about? Girls are stupid.) I truly believe that in years to come, people will look back and say 'That was a show that was on TV.' Yessir. I truly do."


[> [> Re: And a very funny (non-spoilery) quote from Joss... -- CW, 18:49:13 02/27/03 Thu

people will look back and say 'That was a show that was on TV.'

My vote for quote of the week!

[> [> [> Re: And a very funny (non-spoilery) quote from Joss... -- Slainey, 06:21:01 02/28/03 Fri

I'm fond of this quote esp. the last bit.
"whatever came next, it would have to have at its center an idea as worthy as ('Buffy' and spinoff 'Angel') were. And somebody who's pretty."

Sorry, no URL. I apparantly came from Variety.

Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- s'kat, 08:00:46 02/28/03 Fri

I picked up the SFX Year End Collector's Edition the other day and they had a really cool episode guide where the co-creators/producers of Angel and Btvs explain what they felt was going on with each episode and what they intended. I thought some of them might be interesting and informative for future analysis purposes. Also - the S6 Btvs commentary states where Joss was involved and where he wasn't and why certain things went wrong. I won't reproduce everything just some of the tid-bits that I haven't already seen on the boards.

BTVS Season 6 Marti Noxon's commentary:

1. Bargaining I & II

"Obviously those episodes were all about the problem of getting Buffy out of her grave. In some ways, they were challenging because we also had not originally conceived this as a two-hour movie, which is the way it aired. It was originally a two-parter, but it wasn't going to be continuous. It was a challenge because we had to stretch a story that wasn't quite a two-episode arc into one movie-length episode. The difference is that they're paced differently; they work out differently time-wise. It was more difficult to make it seamless."


"That's the one where we were, like 'the house is a metaphor for all the adult problems she'll be dealing with.' It turned out pretty well, but it's not that exciting to watch Buffy deal with bills. The show is not called Buffy The Debt Collector or Buffy The Credit Card User . So I guess we started toying with adult responsibilities and then decided we'd have to go the way of nasty sex instead. We had been asking in script meetings, 'What are adult responsibilities?' We tried out a bunch in 'Flooded' and kind of dispensed with them when we realised we didn't want to spend time with the actual realities of adult life. Uh, boring."

3. Life Serial

"That episode was fun because structurally, it was different. Joss came up with this really fun idea of doing it as this series of short stories. Also, we had to split that one among writers because we were getting a little behind. I thought that parts of that show were really successful. I thought the whole thing with the mummy hand was hysterical. [pausing to agree with her here - yep hysterical..never laughed so hard in my life]Truthfully, that was a really hard epsiode to break because of the complexity of certain storylines. The first cut of that mummy part was terrible, but once we got the pacing right, it was just a riot. And I loved the Buffy/Spike poker game where the demons are playing for kittens."

4. All The Way

This commentary is really interesting - she agrees with our criticism of it. PErsonally I liked it better than most people. I still enjoy it. But I adored Season 6 - taste is truly a subjective thing.

"That one was interesting, but there were two things wrong with it. The romance between Dawn and the vampire never took off.[pausing to agree]. We'd hoped it would be bittersweet, but they didn't quite make the connection. So in some ways it wasn't quite as resonant as we'd hoped it would be. And the other thing is that Joss felt that we should have shored up Dawn's character more at the beginning. If we'd been into Dawn's space in the beginning, then the rest of it might have played better. I tend to agree. We sort of boned that one a little bit. What I did like about it was that it was sort of old school Buffy. You go out with these guys and, guess what? They're vampires. Not very complicated in the metaphor, but very dead on. So I liked the simplicity of it. It we'd only made a few adjustmants, it would have been better."

5. Tabula Rasa

"Again an effort to kind of lighten the season up. We wanted to do something fun and we were talking about the fact that they were all at this really tender place after 'Once More with Feeling,' and the question was how could we get them to deal with that and not hit them over the head? Joss came up with the idea of this whole memory loss episode that was farcical. And also, we needed something easy, and it turned out really fun. One criticism we received about the episode was the fact that Giles left even after knowing what Buffy had been through. We tried to make it clear that he began to believe that she couldn't take responsibility with him there; we really tried to play up the idea. Plus we really needed him to leave, because Tony had to leave. We were a little bit between a rock and a hard place - he was going and we had to make it work the best we could, given what we had. It was a little bit of a stretch."

6. Smashed

This is interesting and has been mostly stated before - but thought I'd add it. Since I really agree with what she says here.

"This was the beginning of the most divisive story we've ever had, which was Buffy and Spike boning. Really, I've never seen such a strong reaction on both sides. People either love it or hate it. To this day, people either truly believe that Spike is completely redeemed and should be treated a lot better, or they truly believe that Buffy is a fool for trusting someone who's been evil and how can she be so unheroic as to allow herself to be caught up in this really sordid romance? [Actually she's forgetting the bunch of us who were in the middle...but oh well] So you get the total Buffy/Spikeshippers or you get the attitude, 'I just don't respect Buffy any more.' It's fascinating to see.
The thing I keep saying is that it's not black and white. [completely agree] I'd love it to be, but it's not. To me, this is much more real. If these two crazy kids can make it work, it will be a lot more interesting than a kind of perfect romance with obstacles thrown in. To me, this is real life; this is people making their own problems. If they can get it together, that would be amazing. But it was never going to be easy. That's why Spike did something radical at the end of the year. Joss came up with the idea of the house coming down around them while they made love. It was perfect, because we needed something catastrophic to go along with this huge dangerous union."

7. Wrecked

Brief snippets of it - since it's nothing new.

"Some criticism kicked in here that we were being too literal about Willow's addiction and comparing it to alcoholism. It is in fact sort of literal in the sense we're trying to set up that she doesn't have any control; she's really fucked. We also knew that this wasn't the end of the storyline. Even though people were, like, 'This isn't satisfying, it's just so Touched by A Marti.' It was frustration because people were reacting like that and we wanted to say, 'You don't understand, it hasn't even begun.' It seemed like a pat ending to what we were developing and people were reacting to that. But there were elements I really liked. I thought the Rack stuff was really cool and hallucinations were trippy and fun."

8. Gone

This surprised me. I thought Mart was responsible for this episode or just Fury. Nope. Turns out Whedon and Fury were.

"The bit when Spike seems to be by himself when, in fact, he was having sex with the invisible Buffy was something that Joss and David Fury got all excited about, whereas I was like 'Ewww!' It was disturbing to me; it still is. It just shows you that even I have my limits. We also got some criticism that the trio wasn't threatening enough, but I wasn't really hip to that. We just thought they were so funny. [I think the problem here is the Writers either deliberately or unconsciously (probably unconsciously, since they don't seem to understand the problem) created the trio from themselves and used inside jokes - which I call writer masturbation or the creation of negative mary sues, which usually isn't as great to outsiders as to writers. JMO]Maybe they amused us more than did others, but we thought their motivation was so interesting. I think what people wer objecting to was that there wasn't the particular momentum that season, like, 'Here it comes; here comes the Big Bad.' Maybe we were being a little more experimental. [Which I happened to love.] I just think we were tired of running the same scenario, because you can only say, 'It's the worst thing ever' so many times before you start feeling like the biggest liar in the world. So the whole season was structured differently from anything we'd done and I enjoyed that."

I actually enjoyed the Trio as villains. I just didn't feel the need to see them again. Why oh why couldn't they bring back the Mayor instead? Now he was a cool villain. (sigh)

9. DoubleMeat Palace

"One of the craziest episodes we've ever done. It's just insane. And the monster looks like a penis - we know that! Talk about the academic papers that are going to be written about that one! The castration fantasy made large. We were like, 'Oh my God, it looks like a giant penis. What are we going to do?' We had to paint it, because originally it was penis-colored. It wasn't even a metaphor, it was just a big, giant penis. So we painted it brown and it looked like a brown penis. Be we kind of went with it, because the whole episode was so crazy. It was so weird. I personally really like it; I just think it's really out there. Again, it was just an attempt to have a little fun in a crazy season. It just got baroque, though. This was just a weird, off-kilter Coen Brothers kind of episode."

LOL! Sometimes I really love Marti. Her commentary made me laugh. And have to say DMP is an example of an episode I originally hated and now love. (Hmmm there's hope for some other episodes I've disliked yet.)

10. Dead Things

Hmmm nothing new here - but will but this bit in.

paraphrasing - the whole joke of KAtrina as a sex slave then being turned on its head - was a Joss pitch. He pitched the episode. This is what she says about the beating of Spike scene:

"It got so dark and so intense, and even darker still when Buffy beats the hell out of Spike. Some people had a real hard time with that, and I understand where they're coming from. We just went to a real dark place, and I think this where people started to feel, 'Okay, like the episode, like the show, but what is going on?' I wouldn't say that we were floundering at all, but at that point in the relationship we didn't know where it was going. All we has was her raw emotion and that's what got expressed. It was just complete confusion and the fact that she started to take her pain out on him and he would take it."

11. Older and Far Away

Very interesting. She admits here that they screwed up with B/S interaction in the episode. Also that the demon was lame.

"An effort to deal with Dawn, with her state of mind and what was going on with her. How abandoned she had been feeling. We were trying to do a good haunted house story. Again, maybe not our best demon in the world. We were trying to wrap up the whole Dawn mini-arc - get it out on the table and get it out of the way. We did want to deal with it, and at that point it was pretty much over.

A kind of a laspe was that Buffy and Spike were okay with each other after the events of the week before. That was one where we shot it and we were like, 'Oh shit!' See, let me point out our own failings. You don't have to do it for me."

12. Normal Again

"It was always something we saw as a sort of standalone that could fit in almost any season. The idea was really strong and I thought the episode turned out kind of nice and moody and intriguing. The question that seemed to bother people was whether we were actually saying the whole series was in her mind. I think we were teasing that, but we weren't coming out and saying, 'Don't believe it, it's all fake.' We remembered the similar ending between this and the finale of St. Elsewhere, and we made lots of jokes about the snow globe."

13. Entropy

"My main comment about this one is that the Spike-Anya thing really worked. [Pausing to agree. Did it ever. Completely agree. It still works.]Those two characters have a real chemistry together and it's fun to say, 'Oh, that works.' Also we were just trying to put the knife in a little bit deeper."

14. Seeing Red

All she comments on is the whole Tara controversy, it's nothing new. Joss's idea - had it up his sleeve the whole time. Were hopeful people wouldn't see it coming. "We really wanted to make it pretty brutal and scary. It think the whole episode makes you feel like things are going in one direction and then, kablooey, they go in another. [hence the reason I don't trust ME] It's also the episode that probably drew the biggest firestorm we've ever had, which was about killing Tara. We're still paying for that one. I really understand what a lot of people's issues with it are, but at the same time it was, I think, dramatically the right choice.

It was enlightening to see how iconic and important this character had become to the gay community, and how painful it was to see one of our characters executed like that. Some people saw it as a statement, because girls were all naked and loving on each other, and the next thing you know one of them is brutally killed. We had to say, 'Well look at the way this series has unfolded. We're clearly not homophobic or anti-gay [pausing to completely agree - they probably are the least anti-gay series on TV that I've seen] You just have to trust that it wasn't a comment.' We did have thoughts of bringing Tara back in some way. In our minds it wasn't necessarily the end, but it was interesting to see how heated and passionate a reaction it got."


Not much here.

"The skinning of Warren was something Joss wanted. We pitched it to the network, and the network said, 'As long as you only see it for 2.5 seconds, go for it.' "

LOL. We've seen this 2.5 seconds repeated in the "what's gone before" prologues every other episode this year. Boy are they getting mileage out the network on that one.

Two-to-Go and Grave

"It was the first season climax that Joss did not write and direct. There were some production problems. I was massively pregnant at that point and a little slow on my feet, so it wasn't as easy-going as some episodes that we've done."

SFX US TV Special Edition 2002, Btvs Episode 6 Guide written by Edward Gross.

I found it at Barnes and Noble.

Oh it also has ATs S3 commentary on the Ats S3 episodes by Tim Minear. If you're interested? Let me know and I'll post some of those too.


[> Definitely! Post away! This was such a great read! -- Rob, 08:10:23 02/28/03 Fri



[> [> Part II. Tim Minear's views on S3 Ats episodes (Spoilers for Ats3 of course) -- s'kat, 09:42:04 02/28/03 Fri

Here's the Tim Minear version of Season 3 Ats. Btw I'm a Tim Minear shipper, this guy blows me away. Also since he came on to Angel - I've been liking it more and more.

I'll paraphrase in some places where there's nothing new, and say the most in the cool bits.

1. Heartthrob

"This episode represents a hat trick we've played before. Angel finally comes to some peace about an issue - in this case, you can't live in the past - and then we discover that sometimes the past comes back. [Pausing to comment, He came to peace about Buffy but Darla pops up - what I found interesting in Angel is that for Angel it really was always about Darla and his Oedipal issues regarding her...hmmm, does anyone else think that Joss Whedon and Company spent way too much time studying Oedipus Rex, Electra (the Electra syndrom is I think in Achemmenon? and also mentioned in DareDevil comics - hence the orgin of the name) and Freud?? Where's the Jung?] And here comes Darla, pregnant. Just because you decide that it's okay now, it doesn't mean that the people you affected will agree. Basically what had happened in year two was that we ended the season by going to Pylea, instead of wrapping up the Darla plotline. Darla was important in the middle of the year but instead of having a giant resolution with Darla, we just wanted her to sort of fade away. Some fans felt cheated because it seemed we were building toward something. In fact we were: season three."

2. That Vision Thing

"When we were breaking that episode, we felt that there were two issues that we neede to hit, or at least two parts of the seires we needed to service. One of them was Wolfram & Hart and what they're up to; and the other thing is Cordelia's visions, which we wanted to show becoming increasingly painful. We felt that this was a good way to hit those visions again and then reveal, in fact, that they're not natural visions, which is why she's having these physical manifestations. Jeff Bell's invention of the demon Skip was great, and Skip (who would turn up this season in Birthday and Tomorrow) was the first creation of our new make-up guy, Rob Hall."

Hmmm...apparently the two shows do not share the same production crew and makeup guys. Explains a lot.

3. That Old Gange of Mine

" It was kind of repetitious of things we had already done. I felt it was time to do a Gunn story, but I don't think it was successful for a number of reasons. There was a point I was trying to make, which is the fact that it's kind of wierd Gunn is even working for Angel Investigations. And why is he doing it? What does it mean that Angel is the same kind of creature that killed his sister? Unfortunately it was a little limp and just sort of lied there."

Oddly enough, I didn't mind the episode that much. I liked the Fred scene towards the end of it.

4. Carpe Noctem

"The fun in that episode was watching David Boreanaz get to play somebody else. It was a lighter episode and there was large subplot the we ended up cutting out. [ah-hah!! This explains my feeling that there was something missing.] There was this whole story about his daughter and Angel in the old man's body sort of empowers her. That somehow got lost. It was interesting, but the execution didn't quite work. When it was time to cut, we decided to leave the jokes and lose that."

5. Fredless

"We felt like we had to explore the notion of why is Fred still hanging around and what she brings to the mix. Also, we're always doing these evil parent stories, and the joke was that everyone assumes her parent will be evil, but they're perfectly normal people who really love their daughter. They also realise that she's always been a little weird, but so is everybody else at AI, so perhaps she belongs here."

6. Billy

"The most controversial episode of the year. Fans either love it or hate it. [Hmmm...it's one of my favorites.] I think it worked out. Jeff Bell and I were sitting around saying, 'It's time to do something scary.' We realised that we had the character of Billy that we set up in That Vision Thing and Jeff had always had a notion of who that kid was; that he was a member of some powerful political family who could get away with mistreating women because of who he was. That was the metaphor - something not unknown in American life. [Understand this is an interview down by a UK magazine, so there's some odd American/Britishism's in it.] There are so many things about that episode that I love. I thought Billy was a great character, when we were breaking that story, we were saying, 'If it's about an inner beast, when Angel gets infected, then that would be ugly and scary.' But since it wasn't going to be about the inner beast coming out and Angel wasn't even going to be infected by this character's contagion, we thought it would be more interesting if, in fact, Wesely ended up getting infected."

7. Quickening

(I skipped the one's he doesn't really say much about - except to summarize or glow over.)

"A tricky episode to write, because it's difficult keeping all the balls in the air without the big, giant pay-off. It brings W&H into the plot and has Holtz wipe out W&H's team.
Jeff had a moment in his outline script in which Holtz learns that Angel has a soul now. I very graciously went to Jeff and said, 'You can't use that. I need that for 'Lullaby'."

8. Lullaby

He mostly sums things up here. I'll give the relevant parts.

He sees the episode as act four of a four act play. Not so much a set up as a resolution.

"We don't really get into a clear cut set-up until Lilah has stolen the prophecies from the hotel and Darla has disappeared. Also thiw was the revelation that Angel and Darla didn't just kill Holtz's family, but they turned his little girl and Holtz had to come back, find her and had to throw her out into the sun. Once we got that, I kind of knew what to write. Angel starting to allow himself to believe that he was going to have a child juxtaposed with this other man's family being destroyed. It all built to what I thought was a very cool moment, with Darla staking herself and Angel left holding the baby in the pouring rain. The Holtz steps aside and lets him walk by! The impression is that he's feeling compassion for Angel, but in reality he's not ready to kill angel because he sees a way to make Angel suffer in the same way that he has suffered. [Pausing to note something interesting that just occurred to me:Holtz was all about eye for an eye Retribrution, which may be considered retributivism similar to the gypsey curse. Interesting Angel = eye for an eye or retributivism and Spike = utilitarian or chip, less direct eye-for-an-eye. One old school, one new school.]

I pitched the idea that perhaps Darla is captured and staked. Of course Joss Whedom took it to the cool Whedon place where she stakes herself."

He admits Dad was just a place-holder episode.

9. Birthday

"In some ways this is It's A Wonderful Life. You know, what would the world be like if I hadn't been born...or if I had a sitcom. [Pausing to note that they took the real life aspirations of Charisma Carpenter whose mentioned on numerous occassions she wishes she had a sitcom. All actors seem to want this - it's a 9-5 job. It has a live audience.
It has rehearsal. It's the best of film and theater rolled into one. What's not to like?] I thought it was a terrific episode. What I loved about it is that you can't go wrong when one of your main characters seems to die in the teaser.
I think we really got a sense of what a damaged Wesley would be like in that altered reality, which was a foreshadowing of the Wesley from season 4."

10. Provider

"Another placeholder episode. I remember that it was an attempt to have a bunch of different stories going on at once, because we do tend to get almost masturbatory in our giant arciness on Angel. It's become so arcy, it's such a novel, that we're afraid sometimes people might tune in and find they can't watch the the show because they've missed something. However, if Provider taught us anything, it's that the novel approach is cooler. [Very much agree.] It was lightweight, and there are darker, more interesting places for Angel to go."

11. Waiting in The Wings

(oh there's a nifty surprise for those who order the DVD's that wasn't in the original episode!)

"Joss' beautiful tribute to ballet. I love that episode. I feel it's imbued with a magical quality that I really enjoyed. Hilarously enough, that whole idea that Joss had initially was that since Amy Acker is a trained ballet dancer, he wanted to do something where Amy could dance.

There was an entire fantasy scene that Joss had in mind, which they actually shot. The sequence starts with Wesley watching the ballet, then the ballerina turns into Fred and he joins her on stage. He, of course, is a bumbling fool. That whole thing was shot, but it didn't fit anywhere into the story at all, so Joss cut it out. It will be included on the DVD."

12. Couplet

"...my idea going into the episode was that it was all about voyeurism in some way. Everybody is watching everybody else; they're seeing things from a distance. For me, the signature moment in the episode isn't even in the script. It comes when Wesley's on the phone, but watching Fred and Gunn and Cordelia and Groo in the middle of the lobby. He watches Fred laugh. Then he moves his head a little bit to the left until a pillar is blocking Gunn and all he can see is her...because that's all he wants to see."

13. Loyalty

"Talking hamburgers, come on! That was probably Joss' idea."

"The story doesn't move forward and it's sort of a miracle of running to stay in one place. It's just a huge game of set up, with Wesely going off, these prophecies- possibly- coming true and so on."

14. Forgiving

(nothing much said on Sleep Tight)

"I remember Jeff Bell and I just trying to figure out this story, because basically what we has was Cordelia's out of town, Angel has just lost his son, Wes is dying in a feild someplace and we knew where we wanted to end it. How do we get there? We wanted it to seem like Angel has realised why Wesley did what he did and has gone to make some kind of bridge between them, but instead tries to smother him with a pillow. So we knew we had that, but what we didn't really have was an engine for the story to keep it going. Which is why we brought back Sahijhan, b/c we have a pay off for that character somehow. So we talked about the idea that Sahijhan had faked these prophecies, which in fact does not mean that the prophecies are fake. Just because a guy writes a fake prophecy, if it becomes a prophecy it could be that he was somehow used as an instrument by some greater power in order to write a true prophecy. Just try to get your mind around that! You'll just never know...or perhaps you will."

Hmmm...well that just blew all our theories about prophecies being a joke on Angel out of the water, didn't it?

15. Double or Nothing

"This is a standalone episode. It was time to bring Cordelia back int the mix. Charisma Carpenter shot a movie, but we also took her out of the mix for as long as we thought we needed to. If Cordelia's there, it creates a lot of problems in terms of why wouldn't she knew about Wes or what was going on? There are certain things that really couldn't have happened had she been there, so we did that for the story. Also, in Double or Nothing she comes back with things for Connor, just like Angel said she would in the previous episdoe. But in this episode we wanted to do something about Gunn and how he didn't expect to live this long. What do you do when you suddenly realise you've got a future and you never expected to have one? The counter of that is that Angel for a moment believed he would have a future with this kid and now he no longer has it."

Interesting. Not the metaphor some of us thought it was at all. Several of us focused on the truck. When it was really about mortality and futures.

16. The Price

"Because Angel went to all of these extreme measure to try and get his kid back, we wanted to answer the question of did he do the right thing? Our answer is that he did. Even though he messed with things he probably shouldn't have been messing with, when it comes to certain things you have to try whatever you have to try.

That whole story is about wrong-footing the audience so that they think the portal in the hotel is the one Angel opened in an attempt to get to the Hell dimension. It's not. The tear in the hotel is made by something breaking through from the other side. Af first we it's these little slugmonsters that are escaping, but in fact they're running away from something that's even scarier. And that turns out to be Connor."

Odd - I thought Angel had opened the portal. But no Connor did.

(All he says about A New World is how he wanted to do kick-ass action scenes)

17. Benediction

"Holtz is back, and looking terrible in a latex face. Had we known it was going to look like that bad, we would not have done it. But Keith is so good that he acts through all that crappy make-up and I started to forget about it, so that's good. The story's about the resolution of Holtz and if you look at the episode, you'll see that he never lies in the whole episode. Even though he is completely tricking Connor into thinking Angel murdered him, everything he says is true. He realises that Angel and Connor are destined to somehow be together; that the kid found his way here and if that's the case, then they have some kind of destiney. [Pausing here to note - that I never got that until I realized Connor broke his way into this dimension. Also that Benediction is an all time favorite Ats episode of mine.]

He knows he has to let the kid go but the only thing he cares about is that Connor loves him. the only way to ensure this to make sure he hates Angel. So he does what he does. He knows that Connor will end up embracing Angel, and he knows that if he tries to stand in the way of that, he'll end up driving the kid there. Holtz is basically saying, 'Angel is your destiny and you will learn through Angel what it is you were truly meant to be.'

Which is the thing that kills f*&*ing Angel!"

(Doesn't say anything informative really about Tomorrow.)

US TV Special 2002 SFX, Angel Season 3 Episode Guide, written by Edward Gross.

Oh if you want the mag? It has tons of pictures from Angel.
Also pics from Btvs. Interviews with Alexis Denisof, ASH,
and Stephani Romanov. And lots of photos of them. Also an episode guide on Alias and Dead Zone. Plus 4 xmas cards - one of JM with his guitar (not great but okay), one with DB with a goatee - actually quite sexy. One with AH and one with SMG. About $9 at the newstand.


[> [> [> For those interested: Fred's purpose according to Minear -- s'kat, 22:33:50 03/01/03 Sat


Tim Minear explains why Fred was added to the mix in Season 3:

"First of all we love Amy Acker. Second we felt that we needed another colour for the show and that was a character that Joss had been considering before we'd ever written an episode for her. He was actually reading actors for the part when Amy came in. He saw her and immediately saw the star potential there, and I totally agreed.

Here's what Fred brings to the mix - and this is just my opinion, I'm not speaking for anybody else. Besides the fact that Amy is wonderful in a scene, tears your heart out and is gut funny, there is a scene in Through The Looking Glass' where she's with Angel and she's very worried about Cordelia. Angel says, 'Oh, no, they made her a princess.' She just stops and says, 'When I got here, they never did that...That's good for her.' Then we cut to Cordelia on that throne going, ' Maybe I should just leave.' Back to back gut funny performances from our two actresses. The fact that we can have two funny women on the show is a good thing.

I think the thing Fred brings to the party is this: Angel doesn't owe her apology. [well not until now] She is somebody with whom he has a clean slate. I think it's important to have somebody with whom he has a clean slate. I think it's important to have somebody in his life to whom he does not owe an apology; that he hasn't hurt. I'm not saying he won't hurt her at some point, but I think that that's an important element for the show. The other thing I think she brings to the show is the science, so she can be valuable in that respect. Also it's not a bad thing to have another female character for all of them to play off of. It's a no-brainer, frankly."

[> What Rob said, and Thanks -- Dead Soul, 08:14:50 02/28/03 Fri

Well, except for the loving Marti bit. Won't say I hate her, but I can't say that I love her.

[> Really interesting, thanks sk -- ponygirl, 08:26:50 02/28/03 Fri

In some parts she's much harder on herself than I would be. I shouldn't be, but I'm still surprised at how much gets made up as they go along. I still cling to the vision of Joss plotting out every nook, metaphor and cranny years in advance, so it's interesting to hear that stuff like Dawn's arc, B/S, Buffy's debt problems were re-visioned as the season progressed.

Was there any comment on AYW?

[> [> AYW - not that great as you'll see -- sk, 09:47:34 02/28/03 Fri

Yes but nothing great.

"Again we needed to show that Buffy needed to make some changes in her life. And we wanted this to be a big actiony-adventurey romp with some buddy comedy stuff. For the most part, I think that episode is pretty successful. I think we also wanted freak people out that Riley was coming back, though he wasn't."

They must despise spoilers. We knew Riley was coming back but really wasn't a month ahead of time.

[> [> [> Re: AYW - not that great as you'll see -- ponygirl, 11:18:21 02/28/03 Fri

Actually I was kind of nervous that Marti was going to say something like "we wanted to use this episode to show how cool Riley is and what a mistake Buffy made letting that guy get away. And wasn't Sam sweet?" so I'm a bit relieved.

Still there's a good example of people seeing episodes differently for you sk! "Romp," "buddy comedy" and well, "successful" are probably the last words I'd use to describe AYW.

[> [> [> [> yep...I honestly think -- sk, 11:49:40 02/28/03 Fri

there was a disconnect from the writers' vision and what the audience sees. I noticed it in Tim Minear's commentary the most - where he said certain things about their intent behind an episode and what I saw and the board saw.

It makes me remember my old Creative Writing classes - we'd read a story we wrote aloud or people would read it and write criticism on it and discuss...and more often than not, you'd end up with people reacting to stuff in your story that you never intended or even occurred to you was there.

I honestly think the problem with AYW was they had such a small bracket of time to film in - they only had a day and a half to film Marc Blucas' scenes and usually they take a week to film an episode. Usually they use that period to work on the script, fine-tune shooting etc. And with limited access to MB - they couldn't do retakes. Also Petrie had some personal stuff come up which I think also interferred with shooting. So as a result - the script didn't get that final double-check and they rushed things.
Hence the big flaws. And if you look carefully - the biggest flaws are in the Riley scenes - which probably only had one or two takes due to the time limitations.

I got this impression from other interviews and articles last year both through slayage and other sites.


[> [> [> [> [> The incredible shrinking name (shadowkat => s'kat => Sk => sk) <grin!> Thanks for the quotes! -- Just George, 12:23:38 02/28/03 Fri

[> Yes, please -- Gyrus, 08:28:45 02/28/03 Fri

[> Great stuff, 'kat. And yes, please give us the Angel S3 comments. -- cjl, 08:38:00 02/28/03 Fri

I want to know when and how they decided to go ahead with the C/A plotline, and if anybody on staff said:

"Uh, are we sure this is a good idea?"

[> [> I went to two SFX mags and found a hazy explanation on C/A -- s'kat, 12:20:02 02/28/03 Fri

Here's the tidbit I left off of Tim Minear's Couplet

"The follow-up to Waiting in The Wings after Cordelia and Angel have their near sex. The story was about the different possible couplings of characters on our show.
then there's the fun of Cordelia giving Groo a make-over and having him look exactly like Angel."

And here's what SFX Vampire Edition Interview with David Greenwalt, circa 2002 states...p.55, Big Boss' Thoughts on the Season

" After the first half of the season there are hints that a full blown Angel/Cordelia relationship is in the offing. And the internet newsgroup crowd - especially those deluded souls [hey guys I'm just the typist so don't shoot the messenger okay? Not my words!!!!]who think Angel is the only man for Buffy and they should get back together pronto - are predictably up in arms.

David Greenwalt:
"I don't know how to say this - I don't care what people think about it! Because I know we're doing the right thing.
People didn't like Spike when he came to Buffy. They didn't like it when we got rid of Doyle. There's always things that people don't like and part of that means you're doing your job correctly because that means peeople are identifying with the characters and are attached to the characters. The hate mail I get over Doyle! And people are still sending me peanut butter and chocolate from Angel and Buffy like they are going to get back together."

[article continues, with interviewer paraphrasing Greenwalt in places]

That all harkens back to 'I Will Always Remember You' when angel became human and discovered the joys of food as well as bonking Buffy with no after effects. That was their last time together, and their "perfect moment". But Greenwalt doesn't think it would have lasted, even if the Powers-that-Be hadn't intervened. "It would be like getting back with your first wife, you know? It would be a nightmare. For me especially," he adds archly.

So he's not worried about virtual criticism? "I feel less lik, 'Oh, get over it' and more like, 'this is what happens.' People get on with their lives. In your own life you move on, but it doesn't mean you still don't pine for that girl you knew in high school or that somebody significant. So, I don't wish for the fans to get over it or stop..."


From what I could grab here and there - it seems they came up with the idea in Pylea and went with it.

As Earl would say Take it and run...and don't shoot the typist. ;-) SK

[> [> [> </i> Dropped a tag, dang-namit!! sorry archivers! -- s'kat, 12:21:44 02/28/03 Fri

hope that fixed it.

[> [> [> From what I can glean from his words... -- Scroll, 09:38:09 03/01/03 Sat

Greenwalt seems to be defending A/C on the basis that Angel has to move on. Which I can totally understand, even though I'm a B/A shipper. But he doesn't really go much into why they decided to pair up A/C. Maybe because they didn't really have any other female characters what with Darla gone and Kate's actress moving to "Law & Order". Anyway, it would be interesting to hear Greenwalt's thoughts on exactly how/why they came up with A/C.

Thanks for the info, s'kat.

[> [> [> [> Re: From what I can glean from his words... -- Miss Edith, 16:01:37 03/01/03 Sat

I imagine it was because Angel was the male lead and Cordelia was the female lead. It seemed obvious so perhaps in the writers eyes it couldn't fail?

[> [> [> [> [> But don't writers usually resist that kind of thing? -- Scroll, 17:31:11 03/01/03 Sat

I imagine it was because Angel was the male lead and Cordelia was the female lead. It seemed obvious so perhaps in the writers eyes it couldn't fail?

From what I can tell, whenever writers pair up the male and female leads, the show usually ends up dying. Therefore writers usually avoid putting their leads together until the very end of the show's run. Otherwise the show runs out of steam and dies a miserable death. Isn't that what happened with "Lois & Clark" (Superman show), and "Moonlighting", and a few others I can't think of right now? But I suppose Joss and Greenwalt were of the opinion of turning that "don't ever do" into something new and strange. Personally, I think A/C works best when A/C are apart.

[> [> [> [> [> [> It depends on... -- Rook, 03:00:42 03/02/03 Sun

...on the premise of the show, and whether or not the writers are able to switch gears.

A show like Cheers loses steam when the leads get together, because the writers can't think of anywhere to go with the characters after they get together. A show like Mad About You, which is built on the premise of the 2 main characters being together, can have them together every week, and still work. The main problems lie with the writers being able to transition into writing about a couple, and fans that basically want the same show week after week (Ultimately the reason there's so much crap on TV)

[> [> [> [> [> The loss of the original Angel/Cordelia Relationship -- Sara, 06:00:38 03/02/03 Sun

The Angel/Cordelia relationship certainly has much dramatic possibilites that they're using effectively, and who couldn't love Greek tragedy on a horror TV show, but I think it's a shame we had to give up the original relationship. It was interesting to see a relationship that was love without sex or sexual tension. I think they really did a good job of creating interactions in which you weren't constantly waiting for the two characters to fall in love and yet you knew they really loved each other on a different level. It tied in with Angel's reaction to Cordelia from the first time he met her in the Bronze and she made him laugh. How many people make Angel laugh? They always had a different chemistry with each other than with other actors, I wonder if it was a delibrate actor and/or writer choice, or whether we were seeing the natural chemistry between the two actors that had nothing to do with the characters and the script? Anyway loving Angel this season, but feeling nostaligic as well. That's what happens when you watch the DVDs I guess.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The loss of the original Angel/Cordelia Relationship -- Dariel, 08:45:14 03/02/03 Sun

I miss their relationship too. They had such great chemistry as friends, but as almost-lovers, zilch.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, but it's a matter of opinion -- Scroll, 12:31:09 03/02/03 Sun

I know if yab was here, she would argue vehemently that A/C have plenty of chemistry as a couple. Personally, I don't see it. I thought DB and CC sparkled when portraying Angel and Cordelia as best friends/brother-sister. Except for a few good moments from DB (usually when Angel was angsting that he'd never get Cordelia), I don't really see any chemistry between the two actors whenever they get into the romance groove.

All a matter of opinion though. But yeah, I miss the brother/sister vibe.

[> Going on Record: Marti Noxon lies; her Hubris Ruined Buffy -- solo*spinout, 08:53:08 02/28/03 Fri

L'intrigue cachée dans Tabula Rasa est tordue et troublante....Deviendra-t-elle la trame de l'histoire?

[> [> And I'd like to go on record as saying that I am restraining my evil alter ego with all my might! -- Rob (Marti's Secret Lover), 12:00:53 02/28/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Noxon's Contribution -- Arethusa, 12:49:05 02/28/03 Fri

Agatha Christie was told by her nanny to stop writing stories, or, as she put it, making up lies. All writers are liars and, of course, evil. ;) All the interviews and commentaries that have shown up on the board or been linked to show that Whedon is very heavily involved in outining nearly all the major events on BtVS. I can see arguing that Noxon's sexual issues have "ruined" Buffy (although I don't think it's been ruined at all), since the attempted rape was her idea but I don't understand how Noxon's pride can be attributed to ruining BtVS. Could you explain-in English, for the monolingual amoung us?

[> [> [> [> Solo*Spin out squeaks in English -- solo*spinout....Spoilers to HIM and beyond in spec, 18:54:48 02/28/03 Fri

I suspect you will find out soon why the AR was not Marti Noxon's Idea. JW is writing Myth, and myth is rife with rape and incest.

One can plot the development of the AR episode (and the MN lie) if you go to the episode Something BLue, noting the show JM makes of taking his Coat as he escapes. JM/Spike would never forget his coat. Next episode to track the AR is the Episode Shadow. PLease note how, in slo motion, MB/Riley puts his coat, folded, on Buffy's bannister.

The AR was setup.......and will be shown set up soon.
I have always suspected this, but a direct connection is made in the Episode HIM. You can ask yourself ahead of time
why Buffy chose to say she would kill the prinicpal twice. And why JM/Spike stopped her. The final link in foreshadowing is found, though almost hidden, in HIM.

There is a subtext plot written in Tabula Rasa. You can see it, even if you might not be able to read it, when you compare TR with the episode HIM. THe French says this.

When Dawn opens the door in HIM and says *ambush* it is the same door opening on the vampires in TR the first time. Here is where most of the subtext plot in TR starts. I suspect you will only be inclined to look when JM/Spike is seen in Drag.

Good luck.

[> [> [> [> [> Uhm did anyone understand that post? If so please translate? -- s'kat, 20:21:51 02/28/03 Fri

Feeling very dumb at the moment...maybe I just need sleep?
Yes that's it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> No, it's not you, sk. -- Arethusa, 20:34:00 02/28/03 Fri

The only response I could come up with was Huh??

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LMAO...okay I think I've translated it now, see if this works -- s'kat, 21:00:36 02/28/03 Fri

The whole jacket motif is solospin's way of telling us that Joss Whedon plotted the Attempted Rape scene way back in Something Blue. (I don't agree - seems a tad far-fetched based on just a jacket and the commentary I've heard and the fact that they only plot broad arcs and the fact that up until literally Season 5, Whedon was convinced it was his last year - but whatever.)

The Jacket relates to Spike's sexual power and energy.

1. Something Blue - when he escapes Giles' he grabs that jacket. He'd never leave without it.

2. Tabula Rasa - when he loses his memory and doesn't have any demon impulses. He is wearing a tweed suite. He does not have his trademark black leather jacket. Which he dons later for the kissage scene in the Bronze.

3. In Shadow, Riley knows Spike is upstairs, because he sees the blanket folded over the staircase. This is reminiscent of the jacket folded over the staircase in
Seeing Red. (Uhm sorry solo-spin, it was a blanket in Shadow not a jacket so this is a stretch.)

4. In Seeing Red - Xander sees the jacket lying there and that's how he knows Spike was there. But Spike leaves without it. [Obviously Buffy kept the jacket and gave it back to him at some point.]

5. Him - the jacket has possessed the women and made them want to do horrible things. Spike stops Buffy from killing Wood while under the jacket's influence.

6. In Get it Done - Spike goes after the jacket. It's the first time all season he's smoked or been able to fight sucessfully. The jacket seems to imbue him with power or represent power.

Okay...this works except for one thing, Spike is NOT wearing the blasted jacket in Seeing Red. The Reason they left it at the bottom of the staircase, was they had to cut out the scene of Xander seeing Spike on the street - no time, so in order for Xander to know Spike had been there, they let him find the jacket. Only problem was they never took the time to show how in the heck Spike got the jacket back or it ended up with his junk in the Sunnydale High School Basement. We have to spackle that in.

Now what all this has to do with my Marti Noxon posts above and the intrigue caught in Tabula Rasa that's tordid and
troubling by revealing the woman as tramp (bad translation, I'm sure - french isn't great), you got me.

Mind still somewhat boggled. Any other takers? Ete are you lurking somewhere?? Maybe give us a French translation?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> BvTS is about Coats. (Spoilerish Season 1) -- WickedBuffy, 22:32:25 02/28/03 Fri

It always stood out in my mind how Buffy wore Angels coat from the very beginning of their relationship. ( Like wearing someones lettermen's jacket in HighSchool as a sign of going "steady". ) You've already mentioned other coat plots in previous posts.

She never wore Spike's though - did she? ::refraining from going on into things like "wearing your heart on your sleeve" or what vampire coats are metaphors for::

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LMAO...okay I think I've translated it now, see if this works -- Ete, 04:39:34 03/01/03 Sat

I'm as "huh" as your guys there. The french sentence (accuratly traduced by Caroline) isn't really helpful. I'm thinking weird kind of Troll there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Uhm did anyone understand that post? If so please translate? -- Caroline, 20:59:06 02/28/03 Fri

Having a hard time with it myself. In the absence of Etrangere, I'll translate the French (apologies for any lack in that area)

'The hidden plot (I'm assuming it means subtext although there's got to be a sexy, postmodernist term the French use) in Tabula Rasa is warped/twisted and disturbing - will it become the framework of the story?'

That may well be someone's opinion but I do agree that there was little sense in the subsequent post. Here are the reasons why:

I do not remember an episode called Shadow.

Spike always makes taking his coat with him a big deal (OOMM was on tonight and he took it with him after the failed surgery and fight with Buffy).

I don't see the connection between myth being rife with rape and incest and MN not being the one who suggested the AR - she has admitted in interview that it was her idea, did she not?

And what is the connection between Buffy saying she will kill Wood in Him and the AR as a setup? My memory of TR is that the door that opens to the vampires in the door of the magic shop, whereas by the time Him takes place, the magic shop is no more. When Dawn says 'ambush' she is walking through the front door of her own home.

I think I understand the themes in TR and Him but see these episodes rather differently. Both shows used spells as a device. But TR showed that when their memories were gone, everyone became who they really were. In Him, they were controlled by the power of the jacket and no morality or conscience seemed to hold sway. In TR, they were still whole, in him they were id.

And JM in Drag???????

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> yep agree...Info on Shadow (S5 Btvs) -- s'kat, 21:15:09 02/28/03 Fri

You did a better job with the translation, my French is truly bad.

Shadow is the episode in Season 5, right after Fool for Love, where Buffy's Mom goes to the hospital to get her cat-scan? Riley is feeling all neglected and Dawn tells him at the carosel how Buffy is happier with him than Angel, since she isn't moaning all the time - which for some reason makes Riley think Buffy loves him less. At any rate in the beginning of the episode Riley comes into the Summers house hunting Buffy - it is literally the next morning after the events of Fool For Love. Riley hears someone upstairs. He sees a ratty blanket on the banister. He goes up the stairs and confronts Spike smelling Buffy's sweater.

SoloSpin is I believe correlating the blanket with the jacket in Seeing Red.

I think what is in Tabula Rasa that is carrying over into this season is well - that's who they are. Although whoever that is wasn't really clear in that episode. But whatever.

Yep, MN admitted that it was her idea. In fact if Rufus is around s/he could probably give us a copy of the Stephen DeKnight interview which states exactly how it happened. And MN interview that re-asserts it. And of course Jane Espenson. Why lie about that??

I think JM in drag might mean the suit he wore in Tabula Rasa??

Oh completely agree with your take on HIM and TR.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: yep agree...Info on Shadow (S5 Btvs) -- Caroline, 21:36:22 02/28/03 Fri

Oh yes, I remember Shadow now - thanks for the reminder. I've already worked over 60 hours this week and gotta go back for more on Sunday so my brain is a bit fried (and it's after midnight - the insomnia means I can catch up on email and the Board!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Speaking of Jackets -- Brian, 11:30:39 03/01/03 Sat

I just watched BtVS, the movie, on HBO. When Buffy is on her way out of the gym to confront Lothos' minions, Pike gives her his leather jacket to help protect her.

On a side note: after seeing this movie, I think that Season One of Btvs is the remake of the movie the way that Joss thought it should go.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yet another side note of silliness -- Brian, 13:24:39 03/01/03 Sat

In the movie Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Ben Affleck plays an uncredited role as Basketball Player #10

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> i think you're right about the "drag" part -- anom, 19:33:56 03/01/03 Sat

"I think JM in drag might mean the suit he wore in Tabula Rasa??"

"Drag" is sometimes used to mean dressed as something other than what one is but not specifically cross-dressing (in medical language, this is called "cisvestism"--dressing appropriately for your sex role but not for other social roles, like wearing a uniform for a job other than your own). The fact that in English it usually means dressing as a member of the other sex ("transvestism"), & particularly the context of drag queen culture, is the kind of thing that may not come across in translation to other languages. Hope that clarifies things for both solo*spinout & the non-French-speakers among us.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> remercie Caroline, en français -- solo*spinout, 12:08:42 03/01/03 Sat

Thanks Buffy Fans.

Please watch the ep Shadow again, and see what Riley does with *his* coat, and in very slo motion, kinda the opposite of jerking Spiike's blanket out the door. Could that have been misdirection?

I am confused where the info comes from that a scene was Cut of Xander seeing SPike in the street in AR. Was that something Marti Noxon said, or an evil writer? Yet, I am willing to read the info; even second hand sourced. Can you help me out?

Caroline (and others) pls do not translate

Dans l'épisode HIM, Buffy descend l'escalier portant un tshirt rétro ressemblant à un corsage. Que fait-elle *Exactement* avec son pull blanc (en bas de l'escalier et le portant)? Beaucoup de choses sont à venir concernant manteaux et pulls.

I only suggest that alarm bells should be going off. This is not coincidence imho.

The Ambush link. Yes, in the TR magic shop the door opens the first time on what I see as an ambush of vampires.....and from there to the floor Buffy and Dawn are drawn together; huddled; where soon Buffy places her arm around Dawn.

In HIM, that exact sequence is repeated. Dawn opens the door on an ambush (Dawn says it), Dawn is drawn to Buffy, and we see Buffy placing an arm around Dawn.

SPike in Drag.........going to happen. (and for a twist, ASH maybe a Spike). And someone (s) are going to be attracted.

You might really be looking for the subtext then.
Another clue for you, and just for the subtext. What Pocket is a magicians pocket of deception???


Somewhere here I also read, maybe in another thread, that the OAFA monster was lame. Hmmm. The episode used a very unique way of introducing this monster to Buffy. First she could not see (sounds like current themes)clearly at anytime during the too obviously, flawed fight scene. This lame monster was first seen by the camera appearing over a West facing cemetary monument; opposite all others facing East in SD (thinking Redlands of Egyptian myth, and cited by Rocky). This monument had a Bird at the top with spread wings. These wings seem to be repeated in the appendages of said ShapeShifter's head. My thinking is that in the Poem *Second Coming* the beast is heralded by Birds.

The OAFA/ JG Ballard themed episode also had some telepathy in it btwn Buffy and Spike (my POV). Happens right after the first encounter with the lame monster in Buffy's house. Buffy Stops the downward motion of the sword, falls back into Spike, and the result is a banter btwn B/S, using telepathy ( I think). The effort put forward for the lame monster included an *Image* of a devil or demon crawling up the sword after Buffy spears it in the wall. This does sound like the lame monster is *kinda* special.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Seeking clarification -- Tchaikovsky, 15:34:46 03/01/03 Sat

I've just read a thread further up the board asking me not ot jump to conclusions about posts I don't understand, and not to assume it is trolling. I don't currently believe your posts are trolling, and I'm trying not ot jump to conclusions.

But I must ask:
1) Is there a good reason why you're posting sentences in French, particularly as in this one you ask no-one ot translate? Your English is brilliant, so it can't be lack of lucidity in English, but this board generally operates in English, and many regular posters (me included) will be unable to understand your points if you post them in French. Which leads me to
2) Please could you either clarify some of your points, or explain why you are writing them, (as you admit) as 'clues'? I'm fascinated to read your insights, but I am not clever enough to figure them out from oblique riddles. If you want to clarify your hunch, please do. If you want to keep it as a riddle, that's fine too, but I'd be interested to know why you decide to post like this. Is the information extremely spoiler-y? Is it a game in which we can participate? Usually we are allowed to discuss unspoiled spec, and your perceptive visual parallels seem to suggest something to you which I can't fathom.

TCH- hoping this comes across as courteous not antagonistic

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Seeking clarification -- Sheri, 17:20:15 03/01/03 Sat

Do the french comments have something to do with Restless when everybody started speaking french to xander?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think I have a close response to sheri (restess thoughts) -- solo*spinout....One post kills the future., 17:53:43 03/01/03 Sat

I have always thought Orpheus & Eurydice was kinda retold in Cocteau's Orphee. The French in Restless that can be translated is likely meaningless to think about, as it would represent the *secret messages* heard over the radio in Cocteau's retelling. imho that is what is happening in Xander's dream. There are all kinds of Motorcycles seen in season six, so maybe in season seven soon. And that car is pretty big. Dawn said early on while she was riding in it, to Buffy..."could you die?"

But others on this board are much more up to snuff with this POV. A web search turns up lots on this work btw.

I have always seen ASH's biting of the apple as representing the First, and the First sin of man.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Help! You're still confusing me. Please explain! -- Tchaikovsky, 06:14:57 03/02/03 Sun

Is there a link between the motorcycles in Season Six and you linking Xander's dream in 'Restless' with Cocteau's Orphee, or is this a completely different point?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> only speculation that may lead to bigger things..Nothing else -- solo*spinout, 10:06:04 03/02/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> Haven't read any other responses yet- but my eyes glazed over completely -- Tchaikovsky, 04:21:59 03/01/03 Sat

[> Thanks for the writer quotage, s'kat! -- Masq, 09:32:37 02/28/03 Fri

Some keepers there for my episode analyses.

Plus total agreeage on a quote by you: "LOL. We've seen this 2.5 seconds repeated in the "what's gone before" prologues every other episode this year. Boy are they getting mileage out the network on that one."

Tell me about it! I have to put my hand up in front of the TV screen everytime they replay the skinning of Warren. I mean--ugh! It's like the way they replayed the second plane crashing into the WTC over and over. Or the way they continuously replay Connor and Cordelia having sex in all the Angel "previously on's". Honestly, people, once is enough!

And definitely would like to read the S. 3 Angel comments.

[> Oooh, thank you. -- Rahael, 11:09:29 02/28/03 Fri

[> Thanks for taking the time to post these. I enjoyed them! -- LadyStarlight, 14:19:14 02/28/03 Fri

[> Re: Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- Tamara, 18:53:22 02/28/03 Fri

Marti has limits with invisible sex but not with the dumpster sex, public sex in Dead Things (which Sarah says was her least favourite episode) or the rape. Tells me a lot.

[> [> Re: Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- Rob, 08:53:03 03/01/03 Sat

There is a major difference there. The dumpster sex, the public sex, the rape were not done as jokes. They were meant to be dark and uncomfortable to watch. The invisible sex in "Gone" was a joke, at the expense of Spike.

Also, not to nitpick here, I love SMG, but I really couldn't care less if Dead Things was her least favorite episode or not. I wouldn't care if JOSS said it was his least favorite episode. IMO, it was a classic, one of season 6's best moments. The actors and directors and producers of the show will probably always have a different interpretation than the fans, because they are looking at it from a different angle. They know what they're trying to accomplish, and may be annoyed or angry that something didn't work out the way they wanted. There could be a million reasons why the production team may not like an episode that ends up being good, at least in the opinion of the audience.

I am really tired of people attacking Marti for every problem they have with the show. Her name was always below Joss', who always had final approval, no matter what some people will say to justify disliking an aspect of the show. A lot of people, myself included, adored the sixth season. It was very polarizing for fans.

And this is coming from the vantage point of someone who liked "Gone," but there is an ickiness to Xander walking in on Spike, and mocking him about masturbating, when he's really having sex with an invisible Buffy (it actually demeans Xander, for not figuring out what's going on, when he is usually very perceptive, and Spike--although I liked the metaphor that Buffy was able to cut loose sexually when she was invisible), that is not there when Buffy, an adult, is having sex otherwise, whether it be in the sleaziest place or not.


[> [> [> Re: Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- Tamara, 18:23:31 03/01/03 Sat

Marti was responsible for season 6. Joss worked with her up until Smashed and then he was concentrating on Firefly. The last half of season 6 had Marti as show runner. She even says Two To Go and Grave were weird to plan without Joss as he had always been around for the final episodes in the past.

[> [> [> [> Re: Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- Rob, 21:26:52 03/01/03 Sat

There were numerous reports that, while Joss did scale back his participation, he still got final say on everything.


[> [> [> [> Re: Marti Noxon's explanations of episodes in S6 Btvs -- Peggin, 13:46:51 03/02/03 Sun

Marti was responsible for season 6. Joss worked with her up until Smashed and then he was concentrating on Firefly.

That is a gross distortion of the facts. Marti did not structure the season, she had no power to override anything that Joss didn't like, and any idea she had that made it to the screen only made it there if Joss approved of it.

After Smashed, Joss scaled back his involvement in the show in terms of two things: (1) being on the set during filming and (2) issues arising during post production. Marti's increased level of responsibility related to those areas and those areas only. Joss was still the one controling the direction of the show. He was still at every single writers' meeting when the broke the episodes. He still had final approval over every one of the 21 season six scripts which he did not personally write.

And Marti did NOT say that they had to plan the finale without Joss's input. She said that, "It was the first season climax that Joss did not write and direct." That does not mean that Joss had no involvement in breaking the stories. It does not mean that he did not have final approval of the scripts. All it means is that someone else wrote the actual scripts. Joss was still very involved in deciding what the story was going to be and he still approved of the scripts before a single scene was shot.

Well, It's Official. After 7 years, I am about to be free on Tuesday nights -- Spike Lover, 08:36:15 02/28/03 Fri

Actually 6 years, as I started watching the show in season 2.

Still, it is (almost) a shame. I hope the series finale will be satisfying. I hope Spike will not have a sacrificial death- but I fear he will. (I would sort of like to see him cross over to Angel- but that might be confusing.) I kind of want Buffy to die (again). (Isn't that the slayer's fate?) However, if they are holding any hope out to do movies, that probably won't happen. (And just how successful are those Star Trek Next Generation movies anyway?)

I definately hope she is not 'reunited' with Angel. (Ick.) Unless it is to make her realize that her love for Angel was a 'first love crush' and that she truly loves someone else.

Still, I have to come back to 'The Gift' season finale. I was unspoiled, and I was stunned when Buffy took the big leap. Can anything be bigger than that?

Course, Joss is known for his season finals. Season 2 was a shocker when she had to send Angel to Hell and move out of the house. (Did I cry? I don't remember.)

My final questions for the series revolve around questions about Buffy's character...

I am reminded of Restless, when Tara tells her, 'Think you know what you are? You have not begun to know?'
My question: Does she know yet? Have WE begun to know yet? Will we know when it is all over?

Another question: Will Buffy finally be honest with herself (and others) before it is over? Will she find the strength to embrace love and passion without guilt, shame, and suspicion?

These are my qs. What are your final questions?

[> My finale questions -- Rochefort, 11:54:17 02/28/03 Fri

Willy Buffy and Xander end up together?

Will Buffy find another response to fighting evil besides war?

Will we find out Buffy has been wrong headed about much of what she has done this season and will ME take a strong stance against American foreign policy?

Will Marti Noxon give a more clear apology for season six? The voters are forgiving if she would just come clean.

As Spike Lover said, will ME take the conventional easy way out to mixed-bag characters like Spike, Andrew, Anya. Killers who must sacrafice themselves. I want them all to live and one of them go back to being evil. ME has been dealing with what to do with the character that needs to be "redeamed" for a long time. Faith just went to jail, but jeez.

Will Jane Espenson write another episode? I hope so.

Will Willow stop giving cute Willowisms and act like an adult?

Will there be ANY "happy couples"?

Will there be a sunset?

Will Giles die old and alone?

Where will Buffy work now? Will she get to go back to college?

Will she lose her slayer powers and marry Lois Lane?

How to handle Kennedy? I thought she was going to die because she was the only proto-slayer with a sort of personality. But they can't kill Willow's OTHER lover? Kennedy has to live.

How many proto slayers WILL die?

What will happen to Wood?

Will Harmony return?

Obviously if there was a planned spin off, Faith was going to live. Can ME now change their minds and kill her?

Can Clem please die? (I like Andrew, and you all want him to die, so I say kill Clem.)

If Spike leave's Sunnydale for a new life, where will he go, and will he sing "My Way"?

Sweet pee, Will they reassemble the Buffy bot to aid them in their fight against evil!? They will!?

[> Re: Well, It's Official. After 7 years, I am about to be free on Tuesday nights -- kisstara, 12:20:34 02/28/03 Fri

Does MissKittyFantastico live with Willow at the Buffy household? We've not seen her since S4.

[> Question -- kisstara, 12:23:21 02/28/03 Fri

Does MissKittyFantastico live with Willow at the Buffy household? We've not seen her since S4.

Everything I know, I learned from watching BUFFY -- Gyrus, 09:51:03 02/28/03 Fri

Over the years, I've probably spent over a thousand hours watching, re-watching, discussing, reading about, writing about, and having naughty dreams about BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. What do I have to show for it? Some valuable life lessons.

-The fact that the world might end tomorrow is no excuse for not studying for your chemistry mid-term.

-A friend gives you a shoulder to lean on. A good friend gives you a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher.

-Getting extremely drunk never solves anything, unless your problem is that you sing too well or your hand isn't on fire.

-Some questions are best answered with a head butt.

-English people: tweedy prigs on the outside, ass-kicking sex monkeys on the inside.

-As a profession, archaeology is even more dangerous than the Indiana Jones movies make it out to be.

-If you can remain cheerful and optimistic in the face of adversity, you are probably a robot.

-Fighting doesn't solve anything. Winning does.

-Having sex can make you evil. Not having sex can make you Andrew.

[> Re: Everything I know, I learned from watching BUFFY -- pr10n, 11:36:03 02/28/03 Fri

Gyrus: Thanks for these several threads lately. Funny stuff. A few more:

- Nothing can defeat the healing power of chocolate, except 1. hyperchocotoxicity and 2. well, irreversible death.

- Being an authority figure is tough work, no matter how hip your record collection or what things you may have slain.

- Fashion sense is more powerful than poverty or practicality.

- When you're invisible, stunts and vicious pranks are de riguer.

- The Macintosh computer is the single most powerful hacking platform ever created.

[> [> Re: LOL -- aliera, 13:54:45 02/28/03 Fri

...we may have to have a platform "discussion" one day. ;-)

[> Put 'em on a poster... I need something to replace my "Hang in there kitty" -- ponygoyle (who ate the kitty), 11:41:40 02/28/03 Fri

[> [> Ever the see the alternate version of that poster? -- RobAndMurder, 11:48:01 02/28/03 Fri

Same dangling kitty, but the caption reads, "Oh, shit!"


Connections and Disconnections: Thoughts on "Conversations..." and "Spin..." SPOILERS for later eps -- KdS, 10:45:50 02/28/03 Fri

These posts are getting later and later on Friday - it's so annoying that Friday is the only day of the week I have lectures literally all day, which rather gets in the way of posting my reactions to the latest Sky eps.

Sorry to any unspoiled British readers, but having been spoiled it's quite impossible to react to Conversations With Dead People in an unspoiled manner. If you don't want to know who the Big Bad really is, or any other hints about what might happen later, stop reading.

Another really good double bill. CwDP didn't quite match up to Selfless, but is only just behind it for best ep of the Season so far.

The theme of the evening was definitely connections and failed connections - Dawn with Buffy, Dawn with "Joyce", Willow with Tara, Andrew with "Warren", Jonathan with his tormented past, and Buffy with herself.

On Buffy: Holden Webster is undoubtedly the most interesting one-shot vamp in years, if not ever. The sharp intelligence, the delight in his new existence, the mixture of charm and predatoriness - perfect. It's an open question, IMHO, whether he was acting under any direct control or influence of the FE. He seemed far too individual and open for that, but the thrust of his analysis of Buffy was very interesting in the light of many posters' wariness of Buffy's actions and mood later in the series. You're the Slayer, you're unique, you're superior, all shall love you and despair... ;-) And the symbolism of an evil male demon attacking a strong woman with a statue of the Virgin Mary could give a feminist theologian enough material for a twenty-page article.

On Dawn: Very creepy, and according to Rah definitely cut by Sky :-( And it was the unanimous opinion of all three of us that "Joyce" is Evil, Evil, (First) Evil. After all the general cynicism we've had from ME over the years, and especially the whole Cordy thing over on AtS, the heavenly nimbus and white robe was just too much to be trustworthy. If she'd turned up in a ratty dressing gown, I'd have believed it. And Joyce, or any "good" spirit impersonating her would surely not have made such a cryptic and emotionally disruptive prophecy.

On Willow: Our first clear look at the FE's personality. Intelligent, sadistic, but with a key weakness in its inability to comprehend the better parts of humanity, and an inability to keep its big mouth shut when challenged. Personally, I'm glad it wasn't Amber Benson - the potential for philosophical offense would have outweighed any extra effectiveness.

On Andrew and Jonathan: A brief moment of silence for the Troika's uneasy conscience. If Xander is the Hellmouth-dwelling human being we wish we could be, Jonathan is what we probably would be. Essentially decent, but inept, self-deluded, and with a fatal tendency to go for the quick, dramatic way out. One hopes that the hints that he achieved some kind of nirvana or grace in the moments before his death were justified. And let me piss off the Star Wars fans once more by noting the lessons that made Andrew so vulnerable to the FE - no-one good really dies, death is a short-cut to empowerment if you're upstanding enough, and listening to dead people is a really good idea.

On Spike: As Buffy put it, "Here we go".

Spin the Bottle provided much food for thought as well. More connections being made and broken all over the place. Joss's credited work on AtS has never really matched up to his writing for BtVS, and after the lacklustre Waiting in the Wings my hopes were fairly low. However, I was very pleasantly surprised. The downright coarse sexual humour seen in WiTW is still there, but I didn't mind that particularly in that ep.

Once more we have the Cordelia/Connor sexual tension. The prostitute who Connor saves from vampires at the beginning suggests he gets his reward from "Mom", and before the end of the ep "Mom" is promising him a sexual reward for killing Angel. And the Connor/Liam fight/bonding scene was superb, with Connor discovering yet more evidence that he and his father are in many ways similar. And of course, the soundtrack for Connor's fight scenes - perfectly chosen. Young, dumb, full of cum, pissed-off for no articulable reason, and gratuitously violent, let's face it, Connor is nu-metal in all its obnoxiousness.

Wes - oh my gawd. His rejuvenated scenes are surprisingly good - geeky, but far less caricatured than in BtVS S3. Alexis Denisof has hinted that both he and the writers would have been far more subtle if they had intended Wes to be a long-term character, and it's probable that the Head Boy here was what they would have created with hindsight. (I went to a school where we had a Head Boy - really don't know what's so amusing about the phrase :-P). Before and after the spell though - I think the word I'm looking for is Echh. After last week, I was a little more lenient to Wes than yab or Rah. The confrontation between Wes and Gunn though, and Wes's utter self-righteousness while pulling a knife on his former best friend, was hard to watch. Wes has internalised Rule One of the Brotherhood of Dark Avengers - the fact that you are technically Good, and have Suffered, gives you an inalienable right to treat everyone you encounter like shit. I can see why he hasn't been targeted by Harbingers - the way he is now, the FE probably considers him an asset. A thought popped into my head as I woke up this morning. Look at Wes now, practicing emotionless casual sex, getting into a relationship with a powerful figure of evil that began as mutual exploitation and risks becoming twisted love, fascinated with unusual edged weapons, convinced that he's the upright, righteously alienated outlaw rebelling against the hypocrisy and cruelty of former friends - remind you of anyone? Considering possible future developments, this could get very interesting...

Must put a final word in for the quality of the in-jokes (not authorial masturbation): Angel worrying about the quality of his accent, Cordelia reacting to Angel with exactly the same line as she did the first time they met in BtVS S1, the whole running gag of paralleling Wes's weapons and, um, weapon. The only off aspect was Andy Hallett's singing in the first seconds of the ep, which seemed uncharacteristically off, unless some subtle message was involved. And the final shot is quite baffling - empty furniture, but still crowd noises on the soundtrack. Empty chairs and empty tables... As in Les Mis?

[> Great work! -- Rahael, 11:34:38 02/28/03 Fri

I think I enjoy reading about what watching the eps almost as much as actually watching them. Almost, but the eps last night were really, really good.

So far, I'm enjoying Season 7. I really liked CWDP, but it was followed immediately by Spin the Bottle, which has left a stronger impression on me the day after.

Season 4 so far is giving me the bigger ooohs, ahhhs and "that's so cool!"

(Connor's street fight, Wes testing weapons in his apartment)

Wes is a very enjoyable character to watch. He's like a really great character I love to hiss at. He seems to make an explicit connection between two events which are not directly connected "I had my throat cut and my friends abandoned me". He puts a knife to Gunn's throat in an echo of what Justine did to him. He tells Gunn he doesn't have muscles to fall back on, but after the bottle spins, and they are talking about how their bodies have changed, Wesley starts flexing muscles he didn't expect to find. I really enjoyed AD in this ep. Also, David Boreanaz too - the bemused look on his vamp face in the bathroom was soo hilarious.

I loved Wes' reaction to Fred telling him her Alien fantasy (that's in both senses of the word, LOL). And Head Boy. and "I'm invisble, aren't I?" Connor and Liam's conversation about fathers.

Okay, and the whole slashy vibe between Wes and Gunn in this ep was so funny. Darker, before the spell, funnier after it, but there for me, at least, in both incarnations. Georges Duby indeed! And now I'm thinking about the Casque that Lilah gives Wesley in the last ep. Isn't it also, in a sense a slightly sardonic present by Lilah? Wesley, who once saw himself as a knight in shining armour, a rogue demon hunter who helped the helpless. It might be a reminder to Wes of chivalry, of honour, of oaths of loyalty. A left over from Pylea? And all this underscorse Wes' feeling that he has been abandoned, betrayed and treated dishonourably.

[> [> That's my emotional problem at the moment -- KdS, 13:02:26 02/28/03 Fri

I felt close to Wes all through S1-3, and it feels saddening to have to hiss at him now.

Hmmm. Slightly twisted to think of Fred as a teenager being far too interested by the idea of being helplessly ravished by the inhuman. And then later.... Ulp.

[> Ok, my turn now, non UK peeps can join in too ;o) -- yabyumpan, 17:46:53 02/28/03 Fri

CwDP: I'm definitely enjoying this season more than S6, but this is the first episode that has actually moved me and made me care about any of the characters again.
Loved Holden Webster, interesting that in Buffy's 'normal' life she's a counselor(sp) with slaying Vamps as her 'vocation', and here she is being counselled by the very thing she's been 'chosen' to kill. Not sure if it means anything but interesting just the same.
My heart went out to Willow when she realised that she hadn't been 'talking' with Tara after all. Good way to destroy people, give them hope then snatch it away.
Which brings us on to Dawn. Her scenes were the scariest I've seen on BtVS since Hush. Agreeing with KdS, 'Joyce'=Evil. There's no way the real Joyce would try to destroy the trust between her daughters.
Not sure what to make of Spike, I'll leave that till next week.
Sad to see Jonathan go, he's been part of Buffyverse almost from the begining. There was so much pathos in his desire to be part of the SG.
Note to Andrew : When dead people start talking to you, it's generally not a 'good thing'.
Where was Xander? Is this the first episode of BtVS he hasn't been in? I felt his absence.

On to Spin the Bottle: On second viewing, I'm not sure how I feel about this episode.

First, let me get the Wes stuff out of the way.

He seems to make an explicit connection between two events which are not directly connected "I had my throat cut and my friends abandoned me"

This has bugged me and been threatening to come out since 'The Price' so here goes.... The way he tells it, there he was, innocently walking down the road when this mad woman came up and cut his throat and his friends just abandoned him, for no reason. Well, just in case Wesley's logged on and perusing the web for clues, I'll help him out by filling in the gaps (maybe he's just got amnesia)

I had my thoat cut while I was in the process of stealing my friends child, by a woman who I appeared to trust more than my friends, who were at the same time being attacked by the child's enemy, something I knew was going to happen but neglected to tell them (would the end have justified the means if Fred had been killed in the attack?). I knew the attack was going to happen because I had had secret meetings with said enemy, which is why I didn't know about the child's father's blood being spiked, if I had of been with my friends and not speaking with the enemy I would have known about it. I took the child because I put my faith in ancient prophesies and talking hambergers, ignoring my friends, which led me to believe that his Father was going to turn evil ( a fact I decided not to share with my friends even though they would probably have been in danger from the Father turning evil as well) and kill him. I decided that I was the only one who could save the child, even though I could probably have hired some muscle to help protect this child while I took him away, a child that's had an enemies list since before he was born. I screwed up, I've yet to apologise. I may have been warned off going to the hotel but I was/am still capable of writing and/or using the phone. I've been sullen and felt hard done by ever since and my friends abandoned me

Hope that helps, Wes old boy. To quote Rah when he pulled the knife on Gunn (hope you don't mind) "What a prick!"

Ok, that's out, I'm done, no more bashing of Wes in the future (unless he really, really pisses me off more than he's doing at the moment) ;o) I'll give kudos to AD and the writers though, for making me really dislike a character I used to really like. (although my fast forwarding through most of the scenes he's in probably wasn't their intent)

And on with the show......

As I said before, I'm not sure how I feel about this episode as a whole. I did enjoy it, there were some great moments and nice characterisations; Shy, awkward Liam - Connor and Liam bonding over 'hypocritical' fathers - pompous but sweet & stumbling Wesley - 'pot head, conspiracy theory' Fred - tough, no nonsense Gunn - "Yep. I still got it" Queen C.

All in all, a pretty good ep, so what's the problem? I realised after the second viewing that it left me feeling the same way I did after WiTW. There's an after tasteand it makes me feel a bit squicked. Ok, now I feel as if I'm about to step into a Mosque with my shoes on.....but I don't like JW writing and directing for AtS. WiTW in particular but also StB feels self-indulgent. It seems almost to clever for it's own good, to many nods to the audience, to much refering back. It almost feels like JW is so highly praised by everyone (he even gets called 'God', that's got to be pretty disconcerting after a while), that he feels he has to really come up with something to justify the praise. This is in no way meant to bash JW, please don't read it as such. I do admire him very much and am very grateful for all that he's given us/me. I do think he has enormous talent (I wish I had just 1% of that talent) but after WiTW and now StB, I'm uneasy about him writing AND directing episodes on AtS. I would love to have seen this ep directed by Tim Minear, or for the writing to have been shared between JW and TM or SdK. I know it's his show and his creation but I don't feel he really 'grokes' AtS.

I'm really sorry if this post offends people, that's not my intention at all. I'm just trying to give an honest response to the episode.

Please don't hate me too much :-(

[> [> I've been wary of the non-UK nonposting areas all week. ;> -- WickedBuffy (btw, what's "squicked"?), 19:30:50 02/28/03 Fri

[> [> [> RE: "Squicked" -- KdS, 03:26:46 03/01/03 Sat

"Squicked" - mildly repelled on a visceral rather than intellectual level. Usually applied to sexual ships which have some perverse air about them.

Personal example - "I'm seriously squicked by some fics I've read which have eroticised the Buffy/Giles relationship - the man's her father figure!"

[> [> [> [> Thanks, KdS! Gonna use "squicked" about 50 times today. ;> -- WickedSemantics, 08:46:53 03/01/03 Sat

[> [> You forgot... -- KdS, 04:07:56 03/01/03 Sat

ignoring my friends, because I was sulking over one of them deciding to sleep with another instead of with me, which led me to believe...

[> [> I know what you mean Yaby -- Rahael, 06:08:06 03/01/03 Sat

(Don't mind you quoting me at all, hehehe)

What follows is my personal conviction, just mine, and pretends to no claim that this is actually what is happening!

Reading recent interviews with Joss, he doesn't seem to express any enthusiasm or interest in Buffy at all. Looks like the burn out he kept worrying about a year earlier has arrived. His heart isn't in it, it seems to me.

So I too am glad that Angel has some writers who have some personal investment in it (in Buffy commentaries, every writer who wasn't Joss kept talking about him). I truly believe that Tim Minear and others have a care and fondness and enthusiasm for Angel that will sustain it when Joss' heart goes elsewhere. Buffy is Joss'. Angel belongs to lots of people, not just Joss.

I don't blame Joss in the slightest. Looking at the passion he's put into it, it's not surprising at all. Plus the whole Firefly getting cancelled thing must have been depressing.

(I personally loved both WiTW and StB!)

And I still love Wesley Price (he seems to have dropped the Wyndam), even though he is behaving like a prat.

Storyteller and "Amadeus" and season specs. (minor, vague as possible spoilers) -- Ylang Ylang, 12:35:04 02/28/03 Fri

Reposted from S'Kat's thread on why she hates Storyteller. Also, when I write about any ep and make speculations, etc. it is always JMHO. The voice is my voice -- always, and the opinions are my opinions -- always. In MHO, to use JMHO, is apologizing for having original thoughts, JMHO ; )

On one level, this ep was quite satisfying for me, but on a more personal level, it holds meaning for me only because there are only five more eps. left in Buffy.

It was wonderful for finding pop culture references and themes. It felt like -- and that's how I take in film and telvision primarily -- watching a so-so remake of the mythology of the film "Amadeus" -- more so the director's cut. "Amadeus" -- is very quick summation -- is Oscar's "Best Film" of 1984 that is based upon a play, that is based upon another play by Chekov, that is based upon rumour, diary entries, Beethovan's conversation book, biographies, and Salieri's multiple admissions from his deathbed that he murdered Mozart.

In "Amadeus" there is this "evil" narrator (Salieri), also is the protagonist of the story, who confesses to murder. When he tells his story, it's quite apparent that though he knows he killed, he sees himself as being the person done wrong. There is no actual remorse for the killing, but remorse for being in the very position (besides dead, unknown to history) he attempted to place Mozart. In Storyteller, Andrew's tears at the end were for himself, not for Jonathon. His one seemingly emphatic sentence: "This must be how Jonathon felt" was more a statement on how he felt. His confessions are self-serving, and his tears are more for himself.

Then we have Andrew's twisted POV regarding Buffy, Spike and Anya -- Greek gods. In "Amadeus" Salieri believes God is personally playing a cruel joke on him by denying him of his true station in life and history, and giving it to someone he consideres to be beneath the calling. In the director's cut of "Amadeus" we see a more "realistic" (meaning troubling and human and suffering Mozart) to juxtaposition with Salieri's POV. This person God has blessed by using as his incarnate and vessel isn't exactly flourishing but is floundering close to the abyss. As we see, so are Buffy, Spike and Anya.

Andrew's "introduction" of the three was a take from a scene in "Amadeus" that at first I found funny, but it is also disturbing. In "Amadeus" (known hereforth as "A"). Mozart returns home one evening with a group of people. He introduces three of them to his wife Constance (humm) and comes to the fourth, and he doesn't know her name so he introduces her as this nice, pretty, girl. Andrew also does this in his story. Within context, though, in "A" three men are waiting in Mozart's home with Constance and when Mozart is finished with the introductions, Constance tells him that the men are from Salzburg (Mozart's hometown) and they've come to tell him that his father has died.

I could do a much better job at this if I had a few hours, like 50 or 60 or so, but continuing............

In the high school, there is chemistry between Spike and Wood much as between Salieri and Mozart -- hate makes for great chemistry. I was waiting for Wood to commission a Requium from Spike at this point. When Wood makes his move to stake Spike, "luck" defeats him. In "A" Salieri's hate of God is sealed when he believes that God purposefully killed Mozart before he could finish dictating his Requium to Salieri. (The importance of this being that he would have this God-given masterpiece in his own handwriting and so would be remembered forever for being "touched by God."
Andrew's view of himself as having been an evil genius might be applied to Salieri also. If no one sees your talent as a force of good, well, just might as well use it for the Big Bad.

On a thematic level, Salieri saw Mozart as being beneath him morally, but the fact that God chose Mozart to be his representative on Earth (it is a formal name afterall) was an abomination that devoured Salieri completely.

I know I haven't presented a complete argument here, but like I said, that would require hours.

On the personal level: It was not an outstanding episode, but it is one of the last episodes. It lacked any emotional appeal to me, but it certainly supplied material that requires more critical analysis.

On another note........

Earlier in the season, I wrote this parody of an academic paper where I discuss Spike living in Buffy's head, using Jung's thoughts on the anima and animus. In "Get It Done" it does show us that Buffy's head is quite full of "many" Spikes, Spikes that the Tough Demon from Season 5 might have separated and then thrown away all the good qualitied copies. Extrapolating from this, if the "good" qualitied Spikes (souled) were killed........

Yet, another note ...........

"Him" -- Willow's spell to change RJ into a woman. If you read the script, take out the stage directions between where Willow is interrupted in the spell and then run-it-on with what she says next........ "Make a daughter from a s...." (stange direction) "Oh man!" Within context (and stage directions), Spike was standing in the door's threshold. I don't have a copy of "Him" (never leave a VHS tape on top of something that will demagnitize six episodes right into the ether.) so I don't know if he walked through the doorway or turned around or what.

I don't hang around here much anymore (I have my own apoc. going on right now), so thank you all people who respond to this post. I will attempt to return this evening to rebut or comment. Thanks!

Here's a shout out to Wisewoman!

[> You're jumping the gun just a smidge. There are 6 episodes left, not 5. ;o) -- Rob, 12:39:42 02/28/03 Fri

[> Re: Storyteller and "Amadeus" and season specs. (minor, vague as possible spoilers) -- CW, 12:58:16 02/28/03 Fri

The play from which "Amadeus" was adapted, was Mozart and Salieri written in 1830 by a different Russian, Alexander Pushkin. The original consists of only one act and begins with the words from Salieri - "Everyone says there's no justice on Earth. There is no justice beyond either..." (my translation)

[> [> You're right. Thanks. -- YY, 18:42:42 02/28/03 Fri

OK, this is downright weird -- KdS, 12:45:17 02/28/03 Fri

Saw over someone's shoulder on the train home this evening that today's Daily Mail newspaper had an brief article on the web campaign over the death of Tara. What's weird is that the average Daily Mail writer thinks that shooting lesbians is a good idea (although some of the more moderate ones would probably accept public head-shaving and flogging). Is this the oddest manifestation of BtVS in the media?

[> Brutal but hilarious -- Tchaikovsky, 14:53:45 02/28/03 Fri

the average Daily Mail writer thinks that shooting lesbians is a good idea

LOL. I think you may have just scuppered Masq's bid to get this board some money by having 'The Daily Mail' emblazoned just above the words of Marsters, Whedon and shadowkat, though.


[> [> hehehe, that's just bizarre -- Rahael, 15:31:07 02/28/03 Fri

Can I bear to dig out yesterday's Mail when I get into work on Monday and read it?

One of my favourite activities whenever I look through the Mail is to see how many stories they can twist to suit their particular agenda (mothers shouldn't work, society is going to the dogs, mothers shouldn't work, etc etc).

Unfortunately, in my line of work, we often push stories to the Mail, usually successfully. The journalist we usually deal with is very decent, trustworthy, etc. But by some coincidence, over the last day or so, another one has been engaged in all kinds of nefarious tactics.

It's so funny when they try to do that. Because they fail, spectacularly. LOL .

[> [> [> It was in the Mail's rip off of "Notes and Queries" -- KdS, 03:21:46 03/01/03 Sat

[> [> [> Oh, right -- KdS, 04:03:58 03/01/03 Sat

I can just imagine the arguments in the Mail's newroom over these incidents - do we go with "lazy, incompetent public sector workers who go screaming for compensation whenever someone says boo to them" or do we go with "bleeding-heart politicians let evil juvenile delinquents get away with everything"?

[> [> [> [> You forgot 'ASYLUM SEEKERS TAKE INNOCENT BRITONS' JOBS' -- Tchaikovsky, 04:30:39 03/01/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> All this and more, depressingly -- Rahael, 05:53:00 03/01/03 Sat

To my relief, we've deliberately taken a back step from a public profile, concentrating efforts backstage.

And TCH, I'm finding the Asylum seeker coverage thing so depressing. The terms of the debate have changed dramatically. What can be said, acceptably about them now, my mind boggles. Nowadays, even I'm biting my lip from admitting it in public, unless I'm at a work related public forum.

[> [> [> [> [> O/T: We get the same thing here in Texas. -- Arethusa, 06:00:23 03/01/03 Sat

Very conservative politicians blame nearly every problem we have on immigration from Mexico and Central and South America. They conveniently ignore that our service-based economy and factories and constuction industries couldn't exist as they are without cheap labor.

[> thought it said: "thinks that shedding lesbians is a good idea" ;> -- WickedBuffy ::need lint brush for demon powder::, 19:32:37 02/28/03 Fri

[> [> Re: thought it said: "thinks that shedding lesbians is a good idea" ;> -- 110v3w1110w, 14:16:36 03/01/03 Sat

and people here got upset when i called them liberals. LOL

[> [> [> Liberal and proud of it... -- KdS, 15:02:01 03/01/03 Sat

... but that's the difference the Atlantic makes ;-)

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