February 2004 posts
Qustiona/ Did Angel really
get his destiny back in THAW -- sarah,
07:03:24 02/01/04 Sun
In season 4 THAW did he really get his destiny back? Granted he
won money and was able to leave with the others dragging him out,
but did he really win back his destiny? Because if so shouldn't
he have at the end of the season gone about getting the amulet
a different way instead of joining W & H which is slowing being
shown to him as his making a wrong choice and taking the easy
[> Not necessarily -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:53:34 02/01/04
The prophecy reads that a vampire with a soul will one day fight
to either save or destroy the world, after which he will become
human. We can't be entirely certain that Angel is the prophecied
vampire. And, even if he is the true vampire with a soul, the
prophecy is still very vague. We know that Angel (if he is the
subject of the prophecy) will have to face a great many challeges
(plagues, fiends, whatnot), and eventually turn the tide of an
apocalyptic battle. He's certainly faced a great many challenges,
so all that's left is the apocalypse and the shanshu. The only
thing joining with Wolfram & Hart did was make us uncertain which
side he'll be on (which the prophecy left ambiguous anyway) and
how he'll go about playing his role (instead of fighting a demonic
overlord to the death, he may simply sign a memo ordering said
overlord's death). Nothing has happened that invalidates the prophecy.
Of course, this is all assuming that stopping Jasmine wasn't his
destined act, in which case either the shanshu is yet to arrive
or the prophecy was partly or totally false to begin with.
[> Destiny - Tautology -- Dlgood, 17:48:19 02/02/04
In a certain sense, he never got his destiny back, because he'd
never lost it.
To have a set "destiny" - to some extent by definition
- says that anything that happens to you is part of that destiny.
So having his sub-destiny (of being The Champion) stolen was just
part of his larger destiny overall.
[> [> Sort of OT, but relevant .. -- Jane, 17:52:42
Nice quote from Joss I read in today's Vancouver Sun:
"The times are chaotic. For me, I would hope that people
look at Angel and gain strength by it. With everything that I
do, I hope that they see people struggling to live decent, moral
lives in a completely chaotic world. They see how hard it is,
how often they fail, and how they get up and keep on trying. That,
to me, is the most important message I'm ever going to tell."
This quote came from a nice article about Angel's 100th show,
complete with cast picture.
BtVS - "Passions"
(Spoilers) -- Ultimate Fanboy, 08:28:17 02/01/04 Sun
How was Angelus capable of entering Giles' house in "Passions"
if he had set up Jenny's body in such a way?
[> Answer -- KdS, 14:49:30 02/01/04 Sun
We never saw Angel invited into Giles's flat. However, earlier
in the episode, Giles talks about having to disinvite Angel:
Giles: Right. (looks the book over) I guess I should do my
apartment tonight. (looks up) The ritual go all right?
Willow: Oh, yeah. It went fine.
So one can only assume that ME recognised the issue, and want
us to assume that Angel was earlier invited into Giles's home
in some incident that we never saw.
[> [> Angel at Giles house .. -- Dlgood, 07:01:26
Wasn't Angel in Giles' place for "The Dark Age" to get
Eyghon out of Jenny's body?
[> [> [> Again, don't think so -- Vickie, 10:20:25
I believe that scene was at Ethan's costume shop, which appears
to be the same set as the magic shop.
If you do nothing else today
.. -- dub ;o), 08:49:07 02/01/04 Sun
.. read Macha's essay (long, hee!) on Damage, at Tea
at the Ford:
Among other things, it helped me to see why I adored this episode
so much, and how big a part Buffy played in it.
[> Belated Happy Birthday, dub! -- CW, 11:07:15 02/01/04
[> [> Thanks, CW! -- dub ;o), 16:31:48 02/01/04
[> [> [> Happy Birthday dub! May all your wishes come
true! -- Briar Rose, 11:48:00 02/02/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> Thanks, BR! -- dub ;o), 22:52:44
[> [> birthday? when was it? hope it was happy!!
-- anom, 12:28:45 02/02/04 Mon
[> [> [> Aw, thanks anom! -- dub ;o), 22:53:47
It was last Thursday, the day before Scroll's! Aquarians rule!!
[> [> [> [> you're welcome, & thanks for the info!
& belated happy birthday to scroll, too! -- anom, 08:58:35
[> [> [> [> [> Happy Birthday (late) Scroll!
You guys keep forgetting to mention your B-days. Stop that!*L
-- Briar Rose, 11:56:01 02/03/04 Tue
[> [> Happy Birthday, dub. -- Arethusa, 06:08:46
And thanks for the link. It was excellent.
[> Thanks, dub.. -- Jane, 20:08:03 02/01/04 Sun
Thanks for a link to a really amazing site. I went, read, and
was blown away. Never would have known about it without you. I
immediately added it to my list of favourites. I join with you
in recommending that everyone read this essay; as you say it really
underscores why "Damage" is such a powerful episode.
[> [> Re: Wow! Great Stuff. Thanks, dub -- Brian,
08:48:35 02/02/04 Mon
[> Belated birthday wishes, WW -- Vickie, 09:45:08
Sure hope your day was great. Thanks for the link, too. Much chewy
[> cakes! cakes! (oh yes, happy birthdays, scroll & dub)
-- MsG, 02:43:45 02/05/04 Thu
"How can we know the
dancer from the dance?" (SPOILERS Angel 5.11) -- sdev,
10:36:27 02/01/04 Sun
I promise it's much shorter than the last one. Although not 82%
"How can we know the dancer from the dance?" WB Yeats
This episode explores the human psyche and how it gets damaged,
and how that damage begets damage. There are three generation
of damaged ones Angel, to Spike, to Dana, all interconnected.
Can one be healed or heal oneself? How? Can one repair the damage
done to others? Is that the transformative step in healing oneself?
The Spike Angel connection is obvious. The connection to Dana
is made visually through her distorted visions of Spike as her
abuser and the viewers' fears that indeed their current hero is
her past torturer. We the viewers are thrown into Dana's point
of view and with loathing are made to believe that Spike tortured
Dana. Our reluctance to see Spike this way mimics Spike's reluctance
to view his own past monstrous acts, which though different than
torture of children, nevertheless as he admits, destroyed hundreds
of families. Though the viewer may have been relieved at the revelation
that it was not Spike who actually tortured Dana, their vision
of him is now through his own somewhat altered eyes.
The parallels between Angel and Connor and the damaged child are
rife. Connor was brought up in a hell dimension; Dana was put
through living hell by her abuse. Both have gone crazy are hurting
others and are all the more dangerous for their superhuman powers.
Are either capable of a return to normal human life? Can either
recover from their damage? Dana and Connor are both part of the
cycle of violence that sometimes begins with child abuse, the
victim becomes the perpetrator. Angel and Spike, all vampires
in fact, are metaphors for that cycle as well. Angel's abuse of
Drusilla created Spike who in turn abused others. How does one
escape from that cycle?
Angel did not believe that Connor could be saved. He made the
morally compromised deal with W&H, stripped his friends of
their memories, and rewrote Connor's life because he believed
it was the only way to undo the damage to Connor. That decision
continues to haunt him and is symbolized by the refusal of the
Watcher's Council and Buffy, if one can believe Andrew, to trust
him with one of their own, a demented slayer. Angel who did not
believe himself capable of helping Connor is now not trusted by
others to help Dana who is similarly disturbed. Is Buffy's silent
distrust, a severe emotional blow to Angel, a forerunner to Wesley,
Gunn and Fred's reaction when they inevitably discover Angel's
Instead of Dana, Angel is left in the final scene with the job
of putting one of his own back together, the newly damaged Spike.
Spike is maimed in the loss of his arms, but the final scene dialogue
between Angel and Spike reveal the real damage to both vampires,
that they are monsters who for hundreds of years hurt, tortured
and killed others without scruple. In this scene it appears that
the healing between the brothers, at least, has begun. After Spike's
recent saves and refusals to betray or hurt Angel and Angel's
own this season, in Just Rewards, Hellbound, Destiny, and Soul
Purpose, Angel returns the favor and saves Spike.
Who are the victims here? How do "we know the dancer from
the dance?" At the end of the episode Spike says Dana has
become a monster like them. Angel demurs and says no she is a
victim. Spike says, we were victims too long ago, and Angel agrees.
To my mind this is a first and definitively answers the question
I have often heard raised are vampires complicitous in their
turning. The answer is no. The issue of redemption and the need
for it are affected by this statement. If vampires are hapless
victims, as I believe they are, what responsibility do they bear
for their bad acts, and what do they owe the world upon recovery
of their souls? Are they damned to Hell, the question raised in
Hellbound and throughout the series? Is redemption about more
than an after life, is it about self-acceptance in this life and
avoiding personal hell on earth. This would fit well with Joss
Whedon the atheist, a sort of secular humanist version of redemption.
Is the Shanshu really code for humanity and not for actually having
a beating heart.
Dana in her slayer lunacy makes repeated reference to head and
heart, on the overt level a reference to how a slayer kills vampires.
It also appears to be a metaphorical reference to Angel as head
and Spike as heart, a theme played out at the end of the episode.
The Head or mind's function is to objectify, whereas the Heart
is the opposite it subjectifies. Spike says his evil was in the
"crunch" the experiential, sensate, aspect of the moment.
Spike is the impulsive and intuitive monster who can still love.
His heart has not been damaged. He has retained the subjective
capacity to love, and it is that capacity which has fought the
monster in him. His quest for the soul and his seemingly quick
recovery from ensoulment are the result of this ability to love
on the subjective level, the "I did it for Buffy." Now
to grow, to become a true hero, he needs to objectify that love
so it moves outside the personal, to the world at large. By looking
at the damage he has done to others like Dana he is taking a step
in that direction. Although he did not personally hurt Dana, he
must learn to objectify her experience to the hurt he caused to
the world at large and the converse the help he can now provide
Angel is in a more difficult place. He is the monster ruled by
the mind, the artistic desire. His monster has the drive and calculation
to create. He is contemplative, the antithesis of Spike's impulsive
nature. His "art" objectified humanity but lacked the
subjective ability to love that tempers that creative drive. Hence
he was a monster who savored evil as art. As Angelus, he created
monsters. As Angel he slipped into the role of hero wherein he
recreates the lives of the hopeless. He gave the hopeless new
starts, metaphorically returning a life for one he had taken.
This drive explains his obsession with remaking Darla in Season
2. This was motivated by his creative impulse not his love of
Darla. Angel started further away than Spike without the ability
to love. It is no coincidence that the beginning of his emergence
from under the paralyzing self-pitying burden of guilt into a
productive being happened when he fell in love with Buffy. Connecting
with his heart is what gave him the connection to humanity that
he lacked before. Fatherhood for Angel was the perfect melding
of the head and heart. Now that has been stripped away. Angel
is missing the subjective connections that can make him more human,
and now he has a further disconnect from his friends due to the
mindwipe . He shies away from the very things Spike embraces.
Also the repeated reference to head and heart suggests the two
different styles of Angel and Spike very obviously contrasted
in this episode. Angel moves contemplatively. He is the head.
Spike is intuitive and impulsive He is the heart. Both styles
have their advantages and disadvantages. Spike plunges in and
ultimately is critically injured and almost staked. Angel moves
laboriously, but only finds Dana through Spike and Andrew, and
risks further killing of bystanders by his slowness. But in the
end it is Angel who rescues Spike and captures Dana. If the two
had put their styles together all would have benefited. In the
end it's head and heart.
Further there appears to be some commentary on the new careful
corporate style Angel has adopted in contrast to his old style
which was closer to Spike's and involved rushing to the scene
weapons at the ready. In every episode there seems to be two responses
weighed the take no prisoners, eliminate evil, black and
white approach versus the half-measures, careful corporate, play
the end against the middle style advocated for by the newly enhanced
Gunn. This episode began that way as well. Angel wants to act
on Eve's betrayal, discovered at the end of Soul Purpose, but
is dissuaded by Gunn's advice not to anger the Senior Partners
with whom Eve appears to be well connected. So a wait and see
strategy is adopted.
How does the new Angel, take your time and compromise, style work?
Is it a success? While ultimately Spike and Dana were saved, further
"damage" was once again done. Spike's swift intercession
prevented more killing by Dana which was happening at a brisk
pace. It was risky, impulsive, maybe even stupid, and cost him
dearly. Angel's failure to back up Spike, one option for instance,
almost resulted in Spike's death and did result in Spike's dismemberment.
Not the Angel of old but the new and not improved W&H version
of our hero.
Also notable is the operational mark of the Watcher's Council
acting rather unscrupulously here. Why did they not rescue Dana
themselves with 12 Slayers at hand? Their trademark use and dispose
is evident. Spike almost got killed and Dana killed many before
she was stopped. At what point did they learn about Dana? Did
they know all along that she was a slayer but were not worried
before because she was confined. None of this is clear as yet.
The Watcher's Council is a parallel institution to W&H. Even
though committed to good it still suffers the pitfalls of institutions
depersonalized, compromising and grey, unable or unwilling
to act swiftly.
Finally the open questions of Chosen are being touched on. What
are the ramifications of the Potential empowerment spell Willow
performed in Chosen? Is there a problem with "hundreds maybe
thousands" of young girls being given enormous unexplained
power without their understanding or consent? One dangerous and
fatal problem has already become evident. Are there more Dana's
out there? The spell in Chosen created a new monster. Is this
a consequence, albeit not in the traditional sense, of Willow's
magic? Has balance been disturbed?
I also see a parallel between the now dual roles of Angel and
Spike, both seeking the coveted destiny of the Shanshu, pitted
against one another by Lindsey's artful manipulation. Is there
a problem with the Unchosen ones? None of the new slayers were
selected by whatever mystical process selected the one Chosen
One from among her peers. In the past was the one selected from
the many based on forseen merit, ability, or worthiness, or just
plain destiny? Is Spike too the Unchosen one and does it matter?
Lindsay thinks it matters and is trying to undermine Angel's status
with the SP as Champion in residence. Can there be too many heroes
or is that a myth to be undermined in both series?
In closing this season is beginning to sound the alarm that humans
are the enemy and to examine a series of introspective themes
of internal rather than external monsters. Here are the episodes
to date viewed in this way:
Conviction - Human villain, Corbin Fries is human. Angel's ended
Just Rewards - Human villain, Magnus Hainsley the Necromancer
is a human. Spike and Angel compare pain.
Unleashed - Human villain, young woman turned werewolf and gourmet
club of humans. Angel empathizes with the monster in the person.
Hellbound Human villain, Pavayne is human. Spike doesn't
want his existence at any price. Can Angel and Spike redeem their
past. Is there anything to believe in.
Life of the Party - Lorne's human like need for sleep is explored,
his empathy and alter-ego are examined.
Numero Cinco - Human fallen hero, human disillusionment is explored.
Lineage - Cyborgs were humanoid and presumably created by humans,
Wesley's relationship to his father is explored.
Destiny - Human villains Eve, Linsey and Sirk. Sibling rivalry
is explored and the origins of becoming a monstrous being. How
Spike's choice colors who he is.
Harm's Way - Vampire villain and Angel's feared one strike policy.
Harmony's need "to matter" and to be social is explored
in the context of the corporation
Soul Purpose - Human villains Eve and Lindsey. Human need for
purpose, recognition and self-worth are explored via Angel's dreams,
deep introspection, and Spike's encounter with Lindsey.
Damage Human villain Dana. Insanity and monstrosity are
explored in the context of abuse.
[> Re: "How can we know the dancer from the dance?"
(SPOILERS Angel 5.11) -- Irene, 14:21:27 02/03/04 Tue
I really enjoyed your post. I was especially thrilled by the fact
that you were the first to point out the vicious cycle of victim/abuser
within the vampire community. It brought to mind the movie, "Dolores
Clairbourne". In it, Kathy Bates played a Maine woman who
had to deal with the fact that she killed her husband (David Straitharn),
whom she suspected of sexually abusing their daughter (played
by Jennifer Jason-Leigh). The odd thing was that the movie also
hinted that Dolores'husband may have also been a victim of sexual
abuse, at the hands of his mother.
With vampires - including the Fanged Four - you get that same
cycle of abuse.
[> [> Thanks for reading -- sdev, 15:30:05 02/03/04
Just a quickie .. --
Marie, 02:54:37 02/02/04 Mon
.. to say a big "Thank you, everyone" for your kind
wishes. My home pc has conked, and I have to pop into work to
do this, so just a few minutes to say that Morgan is well, and
very placid so long as he's fed on time! He disappears into the
ether when I come into work, though .. very odd, and rather Spike-like!
While I'm here - a belated Happy Birthday to dubdub! Hope it was
a good one, sweetie!
[> Nice to see you Marie! -- Masq, 08:29:06 02/02/04
Glad you saw the congrats Marie thread!
Glad to hear Morgan is doing well. Hope you are too. Hope you
can come by and visit again soon!
[> Thanks, Hon! -- dub ;o), 10:23:16 02/02/04 Mon
Wondered how you and the baby were doing .. funny thing, that
disappearing of babies happens where I work, too. LOL!
[> marie! great to hear from you! stay in touch! --
anom, 14:41:19 02/02/04 Mon
Was Dana called post-Chosen?
-- skeeve, 08:10:41 02/02/04 Mon
[> Don't *think* so -- Vickie, 09:13:17 02/02/04
Her doctor said her behavior changed "a few months ago"
(I think, or maybe 6 months ago?); the former would put the time
in the ballpark for Chosen.
We also know her age, which is just a little over 25 years. I
thought the actress looked younger.
[> [> Dana was called same time as other Potentials..
-- ZachsMind, 11:17:14 02/02/04 Mon
They were perhaps purposefully vague on the specifics regarding
dates, but based on the description, she had been near comatose
until very recently when something awakened her. She became violent
and they managed to quickly sedate her. That was the condition
she had been in since the cratering of Sunnydale. The event which
changed this was when the nurse appeared to accidently (and I
question whether or not anything's really accidental in Whedon's
'verse) get her prescription mixed with that of another inmate.
The reason she didn't start causing problems immediately after
"Chosen," besides the obvious reason that there was
a summer there and the series was over and the Angel series had
other issues to contemplate before acknowledging its place in
the BuffyVerse, was that Dana was unconscious until this episode,
and apparently under the radar of both Wolfram & Hart, and the
This does bring other issues to the forefront however. Was this
rewriting of the Slayer line only functional during the time Willow
enacted the spell? Are there other Slayers being awakened each
and every day? Are ALL young girls throughout the world Potentials?
What criteria does the Slayer Force utilize? How many Potentials
can be realized until the Slayer Force has been spread too thin?
CAN it be spread too thin or is it an infinite force?
These issues may never be fully addressed. It's not fair to assume
they will be addressed in the Angel series, because that show
is not about the slayer line, nor should it become so. It's nice
of them to have an episode occasionally that deals with it, but
ultimately Angel is about.. well.. Angel. And his immediate family
of choice. Does Buffy and the Slayer line fit there? Not according
to Andrew. The Slayer Counsel no longer sees Angel and his friends
as allies. Nor should they.
So I still hope for a spinoff someday, in which some characters
from the previous series are revisited along with new characters.
However, I'm not holding my breath.
[> [> [> Re: Dana was called same time as other Potentials..
-- Gyrus, 11:47:39 02/02/04 Mon
This does bring other issues to the forefront however. Was
this rewriting of the Slayer line only functional during the time
Willow enacted the spell? Are there other Slayers being awakened
each and every day?
Good question. I'm under the impression that the answer is yes,
but I base that only on Buffy's statement in "Chosen"
that, from then on, every girl who could be a Slayer would be
one. Of course, that raises all kinds of other questions, like
whether all Potentials will become Slayers at the moment they
hit puberty, or if some other factor will determine the timing
of it. (Given how early some girls hit puberty these days, there
could be some 9-year-old Slayers running around. Egad!)
Are ALL young girls throughout the world Potentials?
Definitely not. Otherwise, there would now be millions of Slayers
in the world instead of hundreds or thousands.
What criteria does the Slayer Force utilize?
That's as good a question now as ever, and possibly the one least
likely to be answered.
How many Potentials can be realized until the Slayer Force
has been spread too thin? CAN it be spread too thin or is it an
Given that Buffy didn't seem to lose any of her power when the
other Potentials were "awakened", it doesn't seem to
be something that is easily diminished by spreading it around.
But there could be an upper limit.
[> [> [> [> My theory, one more time. -- skeeve,
07:57:16 02/03/04 Tue
The calling of a Slayer doesn't transfer power,
it creates more.
Each Slayer has the power of every Slayer.
That is why Buffy felt strong after her first resurrection.
She not only felt the effects of her Slayer power, she felt the
effects of Kendra's Slayer power.
If this theory is correct, Buffy and her colleagues should be
feeling real good about now.
[> [> [> Re: An answer regarding the future of the
Slayer line .. -- Ames, 14:08:53 02/02/04 Mon
The issue of what happens to the Slayer line in the future is
touched on in Fray, Joss Whedon's graphic novel about a future
Slayer a couple of centuries from now. JW has said that Fray can
be considered canon, i.e., he means it to be consistent with the
current-generation stories of Buffy and Angel.
The details given in Fray are vague and a little unsatisfying,
but let me know if you want a spoilery quote.
[> Re: Was Dana called post-Chosen? -- LittleBit, 12:53:57
I don't believe so .. she got agitated and started showing superhuman
strength a few months ago (and keep in mind that "Conviction"
is timed only a week or so after "Home") which would
coincide with Willow's spell.
[> Don't know if that would be possible .. Are any Slayers
"called" any more? -- Rob, 17:33:46 02/02/04
From what Joss has said, all Potentials just become Slayers now
as soon as they're old enough. Dana was obviously old enough,
so she would have been activated along with all of the other girls.
Meaning, she isn't the result of another Slayer having died. We
don't even know if a Slayer dying would call another Slayer now.
Those young girls who are Potentials now will one day become Slayers
when they reach puberty.
[> [> Re: Don't know if that would be possible .. Are
any Slayers "called" any more? -- Anne, 07:53:20
In Chosen, you can see some Potentials getting there power from
the essence of the scythe, and one of this girls is in my opinion
definetly way younger than 15(the one playing baseball).And it
is said that "every girl that might be a Slayer will be a
Slayer" (also in Chosen).
[> [> [> Re: Don't know if that would be possible
.. Are any Slayers "called" any more? -- Rob, 08:28:17
Joss said that she didn't get the power at that moment, but was
one of the girls who one day would. Her hitting the baseball was
just a sign of the strength she has that will one day be Slayer-ized.
Trivia Question on "No
Place Like Home" (spoilers for that Ep) -- Vickie, 10:18:02
Gang, this is really geeky, but it's bugging the heck out of me.
I was rewatching some Buffy Season 5 stuff over the weekend. When
I got to the scene where the monks embody the key as Dawn, I noticed
that the blonde monk is holding something in his right hand.
You cannot always see it because of the angle, and it's only there
for a few seconds. It looks like some kind of stethoscope, maybe,
or something else with a round part and a tube or hose attached.
Since I don't have one of those magic DVD players that all crime
shows have, I can't zoom in on it.
What on earth is this thing?
[> Magic DVD players -- Off on a tangent, 12:49:35
I was shopping for DVD players at Walmart yesterday and one of
the boxes listed a zoom feature, but I didn't pay much attention
Looking at the website today, I note that an Emerson model boasts
of "2x/4x zoom" under "Picture Features."
[> OK, what's really spooky is that I was just watching
that ep earlier tonight! -- OnM, 21:16:34 02/02/04 Mon
So, and/or thusly, it was no biggee to cue it up again and try
to respond to your question.
There are two shots that reveal the object the monk is carrying,
but the first one tales place when they are running down the hallway,
and there is too much motion to get a clear look at it. In profile
though, it does somewhat resemble a stethoscope, so you aren't
completely off base.
However, at a time index of between 53 sec to 55 sec on the disc,
there is a clear shot. (Just hit the pause button, which all DVD
players have.) The object is some sort of pendant (likely a talisman--
there's always one of those, or so I've been told ;-), and is
probably needed to cast the corporealization spell for The Key.
It's a metal disc, (about 2-3 inches in diameter I'd guess) somewhat
shallowly conical in shape, silver to titanium shaded in color,
with what appears to be a very dark red jewel (almost the color
of the monk's robes, in fact) in the center. It's hanging from
a cord, probably made of thin leather, shoestring-like.
That do it for ya?
(Yer welcome-- my player's zoom aims to please.)
[> [> Thanks, OnM! -- Vickie, 07:28:18 02/03/04
I figured it was a ritual object of some kind, but my brain kept
saying "ritual stethoscope?" and freezing up.
What part of X-Men is the
third act? -- Doug, 13:48:25 02/02/04 Mon
Andrew: Mr Giles and a few key Sunnydale alum have been tracking
down the recently chosen, guiding them, training them, giving
them the full X-Men minus the crappy third act.
Ok, I know why this was in here, what with Joss Whedon's history
with the first X-Men movie; but since movies don't have screencards
that say what act your in, or intermissions to break them up,
what part of X-Men is the third act?
Rogue running away?
I don't know.
[> What was Joss's involvment with it? -- Finn Mac Cool,
14:46:03 02/02/04 Mon
Never heard anything about there being a conncection between the
[> [> He did some writing work on the X-Men movie
-- Doug, 15:02:13 02/02/04 Mon
Almost all of it got undone except for one or two lines; and according
to what I've heard Hally Berry (sp?) messed up the "do you
know what happens to a Toad when it gets hit by lightning?"
line and it came out very different from what Joss inteded. Apparently
Joss is a little ticked.
This is what I've managed to gather at least.
[> The climax, I think -- RJA, 16:30:11 02/02/04
Anyway, this is an interview with The Onion in which Joss speaks
extensively about his experience on X-Men (and a few other films
like Waterworld and Alien 4 too).
JW: It was the same situation with X-Men. They said, "Come
in and punch up the big climax, the third act, and if you can,
make it cheaper." That was the mandate on both movies, and
my response to both movies was, "The problem with the third
act is the first two acts." But, again, no one was paying
attention. X-Men was very interesting in that, by that time, I
actually had a reputation in television. I was actually somebody.
People stopped thinking I was John Sweden on the phone. And then,
in X-Men, not only did they throw out my script and never tell
me about it; they actually invited me to the read-through, having
thrown out my entire draft without telling me. I was like, "Oh,
that's right! This is the movies! The writer is shit in the movies!"
I'll never understand that. I have one line left in that movie.
Actually, there are a couple of lines left in that are out of
context and make no sense, or are delivered so badly, so terribly
.. There's one line that's left the way I wrote it.
O: Which is?
JW: "'It's me.' 'Prove it.' 'You're a dick.'" Hey, it
got a laugh.
O: It's funny that the only lines I really remember from that
movie are that one and Storm's toad comment.
JW: Okay, which was also mine, and that's the interesting thing.
Everybody remembers that as the worst line ever written, but the
thing about that is, it was supposed to be delivered as completely
offhand. [Adopts casual, bored tone.] "You know what happens
when a toad gets hit by lightning?" Then, after he gets electrocuted,
"Ahhh, pretty much the same thing that happens to anything
else." But Halle Berry said it like she was Desdemona. [Strident,
ringing voice.] "The same thing that happens to everything
eeelse!" That's the thing that makes you go crazy. At least
"You're a dick" got delivered right. The worst thing
about these things is that, when the actors say it wrong, it makes
the writer look stupid.
[> [> Thanks. -- Doug, 17:01:54 02/02/04 Mon
Though to be perfectly blunt, the climax to that movie was definitely
adequate (though I can easily imagine that Joss's dialogue would
have been better).
[> [> [> Re: Thanks. -- Tom, 20:21:22 02/04/04
I agree that the climax was adequate, but the material that is
prior to the climax is much stronger. For example, Logan and Rogue's
introductions, the introduction to Xavier's School and most of
the material at the school, the fight at the train station: all
of those sequences are stronger and more memorable than the climax.
Usually with a movie, the climax would be at least one of the
more memorable sequences, but in X-Men, I think it might be the
among least memorable portion of the film.
Also, Andrew's comment is a typical response from the comic book
community to the film and since Andrew is definitely a part of
that community, it is not surprising to hear him give the same
critism as his peers.
| More February 2004