February 2004 posts

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How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- Nino, 12:14:51 02/06/04 Fri

Is it possible that Cordy passed her visions to Angel with that kiss, just like Doyle did for her? If this is the case, it would get rid of that ugly idea that Cordy was selfish with her visions and her actions in "Birthday" and "Tomorrow" were caused by selfishness and resulted in her being played...Her giving away her visions before her death would be a nice touch.


[> Re: How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- Irene, 15:27:08 02/06/04 Fri

Wasn't her body near death at the time?

[> [> does this make a difference? -- Nino, 12:44:27 02/07/04 Sat

[> Re: How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- sarah, 08:12:43 02/07/04 Sat

I think the kiss was mainly for C/A Shipppers or fan whatever you wish to call it for from my reading everything states that Angel is no longer in touch with the PTB, my guess on this is for joining W & H. Angel needs to learn from Spike . and Spike needs to learn from Angel,and I think Damage was about head and heart working together for the greater good. Spike sees things other people refuse to see and Angel likes what he sees without looking for the bad. Remember the prophency said VAWS would be cut off from everyone and Spike and Angel are in the same boat, Angel the memory spell, Spike because everyone he knew besides Andrew thinks that he is dead so both are really alone.

[> Intriguing theory... -- Rob, 09:57:38 02/07/04 Sat

I don't know whether that will indeed come to pass, but it would certainly be a great link to Hero, particularly with the numerous references to Doyle in this episode.


Another Scenario -- Claudia, 14:53:51 02/06/04 Fri

I can think of another scenario. Because he doesn't remember Connor, Wesley or the others do not remember his affair with Lilah, Jasmine, Angel's two or three month period in the ocean, etc.

It would explain why once again, he has become infatuated with Fred (I noticed that in "Home", he was still in a funk over Lilah's death) again. And it would also explain his return to interest in the Shanshu prophecy for Angel . . . and his curiosity over Spike. All would be a reversal back to his early Season 3 persona.

Once he remembers Connor and the effect the latter had on their lives, it could affect Wes' current relationship with two people in general . . . Angel and Fred. Positive or negative. I would suspect the latter.


[> Re: Another Scenario--spoilers aired eps -- TexasGirl, 15:00:51 02/06/04 Fri

It seemed to me that the writers took pains to let us know that Wes does remember Lilah. In "Lineage" he told his father that he had to chop his last girlfriend into pieces (actually just two pieces, heh). And when Cordelia apologized to him for her role in Lilah's death in "You're Welcome" he seemed to know what she was talking about.

Although I'm enjoying Season 5, I can't help but wish that Lilah was back.

[> I don't think it needs an explanation -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:56:58 02/06/04 Fri

First, Wesley's feelings for Fred never really went away, we just didn't get to see them in late Season 4 since there was so much else occupying their time. As of "Soulless", at least, Wes still had feelings for her. Yes, he did mourn Lilah's death, but haven't you ever heard of a rebound?

As for believing in the Shanshu prophecy, was there ever a moment where Wesley specifically gave up his faith in it? You may not believe it's in character for him to still believe in it, but it's not impossible.

Finally, it should be pretty clear that everyone not remembering Lilah and Jasmine isn't possible since Wesley has displayed a memory of dating Lilah.

[> [> Re: I don't think it needs an explanation -- Claudia, 16:04:04 02/06/04 Fri

"First, Wesley's feelings for Fred never really went away, we just didn't get to see them in late Season 4 since there was so much else occupying their time. As of "Soulless", at least, Wes still had feelings for her. Yes, he did mourn Lilah's death, but haven't you ever heard of a rebound?"

Yes, I have. But are you saying that my suggestion could never happen?

[> [> [> No, but it would be a blunder on ME's part to do so -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:32:17 02/06/04 Fri

They've already established that the gang remembers events such as Wesley dating Lilah and Jasmine's birth that occurred because of Connor. As such, if your suggestion is used, a big continuity error would result.

[> Re: Another Scenario (spoiler) -- Deacon, 20:33:56 02/06/04 Fri

If the storyline had continued from season 2 without conner Wesley still would have been in charge. He would never have stollen Conner when he was a baby and lost his position as the leader.
Also there maybe more they might do with this gaping plot hole. Maybe the gang might start to piece things together and realize that something is missing, anyways I have confidanse in ME that they will clear this up.

Completely frivolous question! Spoilers for "You're Welcome" -- TexasGirl, 15:16:56 02/06/04 Fri

The board is so serious these days. So here is a completely frivolous question: does Lorne seem greener these days? Every time I've looked at him this season, something about his makeup seems different.

Maybe he's been eating lots of spinach.

Not quite as frivolous: Cordelia sure was perky when asking where Connor was after she first woke up. Wasn't she even a little bit embarrassed about seeing the teenager she seduced again? Not to mention conceived a mass murderer with?

OK, so I know it's Cordelia's last episode (sob) and they didn't want to spend it dragging the failures of the past up again, but it still struck an odd note.


[> Re: Completely frivolous question! Spoilers for "You're Welcome" -- Mighty Mouse, 15:34:30 02/06/04 Fri

Well, it wasn't Cordelia that did those things, but Jasmine in "possession" of her body. While she did feel guilt about some things, I doubt she would overtly try to avoid Connor, especially since she was already dead, and this was her technical "goodbye."

[> [> that makes sense -- Deacon, 19:54:57 02/06/04 Fri

[> [> Re: Completely frivolous question! Spoilers for "You're Welcome" -- Earthscape17, 08:57:54 02/07/04 Sat

Perhaps she wasn't hung up on Connor because she wanted to resolve the sex issue with Connor before it was her time to go. Similar to the way she dealt with Wesley regarding the Lilah issue.

[> I thought it was just me! -- YesPlease, 09:16:17 02/08/04 Sun

Lorne seems _much_ greener these days. Glad I'm not going crazy.

*pointedly ignores serious question* ;)

Why We Fight (NOT About Next Week's AtS Episode) -- Irene, 15:25:01 02/06/04 Fri

There have been many discussions and debates over Spike's reasons for joining the fight against evil; and helping others on both BUFFY and ANGEL. But rarely has this topic been discussed in regard to other characters.

Below is a list of characters from both shows. What do you think are their reasons for engaging in fights against vampires, other demons and other supernatural beings with dark purposes?










the Potentials



Robin Wood











[> Can I ask you something? -- dub, 21:18:09 02/06/04 Fri

You're also Claudia, aren't you? And you used to be Rina as well? Why are you using different posting names for different posts?

Just curious. I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind this.


[> [> Re: Can I ask you something? -- buffyguy, 23:01:56 02/07/04 Sat

not to be an ass or anything...but how can u guys be sure its the same person...and even if it is, who cares, as long as the posts are cool and everyones having a grand ole time, whats the big sitch? its not hurting anyone.

[> [> [> True... -- dub, 07:12:58 02/08/04 Sun

I, personally, can't be sure. That's why I'm asking Irene to confirm it. The moderators for this board can make sure by checking the ISP address. That's the "address" of your computer that's logged when you post here.

It's not a big "sitch." There's a note asking people not to use multiple posting names in the FAQ for this board.

Why would someone would do this? Is it to make it look as if other people are supporting their point of view, even though it's only them, replying to themselves? If that isn't the reason for doing it, then I'm really curious about why someone would do it. Again, that's why I asked Irene.

[> [> [> [> Re: True... -- buffyguy, 11:25:27 02/08/04 Sun

LOL...thats pretty funny though...making multiple names to reply to yourself...but yeah, i think ive gone through about 2 names before this one, mainly because i cant remember the others becasue ive only started posting again just now as opposed to like a couple months ago. But this is an easy one and im sticking with it, and i hope thats okay with the moderators.

[> [> [> [> [> Motives -- Irene, 09:13:45 02/09/04 Mon


There have been many discussions and debates over Spike's motives for joining the fight against evil-love for Buffy, alturism, etc. And yet, after checking the site's archives, I haven't found that many discussions regarding the motives for other characters. So, I made a list of them and asked if you could post what you feel are the motives of others (Buffy, Willow, Gunn, etc.) for joining the fight against evil:










the Potentials



Robin Wood









[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Motives -- Briar Rose (excuse typos, new laptop), 10:54:35 02/09/04 Mon

It isn't really that difficult to figure out unless I'm over simplifying... which I tend to do when I am more interested in the story than the individual cogs motives. But I would think that some of these people are simply practicing a form of self preservation more than any deeper ethical duty.

My break down with added motive would be:

Buffy- sense of destiny and duty. Even when she's wanted to walk away, she found that the fact that people's lives depended on her was too much to bear without taking up stakes yet again.

Spike-Spoike was basically a selfserving "champion" when he entered the fight AGAINST evil whole heartedly. It wasn't until he was chipped that he decided that not bein able to fight at all was less preferable than fighting with the good guys. He could hurt demons, so since he couldn't hurt people, it was a diversion. I suspect that once he started it, it has become more about stroking his own ego. Now Buffy adores him, Angel dispises him and TPTB are paing attention to him. This isn't actually much different than when he was nursemaiding Dru. Spike needs to be needed, so this is just a more ego gratifying way to serve.

Xander-To begin with, Xander did it to save his own life. He continued because he found that it's great to have a place and a mission. And when that mission in life happens to be saving the world? Another ego-centric motive. Xander was the first to openly crow about his "Super hero friend" status.

Willow-I'd put her in with Xander all the way. We saw the outcome of the super ego from the Slayer activities in season 6.

Giles-First came attonement for hsi own deeds, then came duty. I doubt that it's ever been all about survival for Giles. Because with hsi background, he could have avoided any real danger indefinitely. But he had that Agon thing that he felt he had to atone for so he followed the family tradition.

Dawn-Not much different than Xander and Willow. We were also shown that Dawn had a very strong "teen homocidal" streak. She like inflicting pain because it was rush. So she relished it a little more than Xander would admit or than Willow would until "Black Eyed Willow" emerged from her id.

Anya-Survival! I have a feeling that if she hadn't fallen for Xander, she'd have bee out of Sunnydale faster than Superman can leap a tall building.

Faith-She shared a lot with Spike, but withoutthe need to serve others. More a mixture of Dawn's fascination with inflicting pain and Spike's ego.

Andrew-See Willow and Xander, yet again.

the Potentials-Survival above all else. The mission was only a means to an end. To hopefully come out alive. And also why Buffy had such a hard time getting them to follow. they simply wanted to stay alive and they saw that as doing the opposite of what she was asking of them.

Oz-That one I'd have to chew on. I definitely would say survival, because Oz said that. But I also think he took it more as Buffy did. That it was a duty he'd had given to him. Especially once he became Wolf Boy, he now had atonement issues, sort of like Giles did.


Robin Wood-Revenge. Self Preservation. His motives were extremely simple. Vampires kill. A Vamp killed my Mother. A Vamp will not kill me. I will kill vamps because one killed my Mother and took away my sense of safety.

Angel-atonement. even beyond duty and ego, Angel works from the stance of personal atonement. That's why he's Mr. Broody. Angel doesn't see it as much as duty to others, he sees it as a duty to pay pennance for his own evil.

Cordelia-See Willow and Xander, but with more Survival instinct and less ego.

Doyle-Duty and a sense of righting a wrong. Not the same as atonement, but about retruning a favor, even if it wasn't granted. He wished someone would have saved his own Clan. No one did and he's trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. Besides Buffy, I truly think Doyle was the least ego driven and had the purist motives for what he did.

Wesley-Ego. Purely ego and trying to impress his Father.

Gunn-See Willow/Xander

Fred-See Willow/Xander

Lorne-See Spike, but without all the chip issues. lorne is a natural service oriented type. That's why he's the host. And since he's gifted with the abilities he has, it's natural to use them where they are most effective.

Connor-Mix Willow and Xander with Robin Wood and a little Wesley. It was mainly about survival as he grew up, but there were aspects of wanting to please Holtz as well as get revenge on dear old Da'

I'm looking forward to reading the other takes on this topic!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Irene, 12:21:55 02/09/04 Mon

Thanks for responding, Briar Rose. Like you, I hope to read further responses.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Blatantly ignore much? -- Nino, 12:14:31 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Less Serious Motives -- Pip, 12:31:46 02/09/04 Mon

My not-entirely-serious take ...

Buffy-'Ooh, shiny weapon!'

Spike-'Let's kill something!'

Xander-[looking at demonic damage] 'Contractory goodness!'

Willow-'I have a shot at being a bad ass Wiccan, and what better place to learn?'

Giles-'My father gave me a very tiresome speech about, uh, responsibility and sacrifice.'

Dawn-'I could so save the world if somebody handed me super powers...'

Anya-'there's nothing we can't face-except for bunnies'

Faith-'I have a problem with authority figures'.

Andrew-'We save Sunnydale. Then we join her [Buffy's] gang and possibly hang out at her house.'

the Potentials-'We're dropping like flies here.'

Oz-[To Willow] 'We're here to save you'

Riley-'I worked long and hard to get this pompous.'

Robin Wood-'once you see true evil, it can have some serious after burn'

Angel-'I want forgiveness'

Cordelia-'la, la, la, la, la, new clothes! I have new clothes!'

Doyle-'losing yourself somewhere, hoping it all goes away, I know that never works.

Wesley-'I didn't get this job because of my looks.'

Gunn-'The last thing I want is my body parts mixed up with yours!'

Fred-[To her parents] 'You rented out my room?'

Lorne-'World ending? Kind of an emergency situation here. You might want to get on board.'

Connor-'This going to be the yelling thing again?'

[Quotes from Buffyverse DataBase at http://vrya.net/bdb/index.php ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good job digging up quotes! -- Masq, 13:51:16 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! What's really scary is that I mostly knew which episodes they were from -- Pip, 16:30:52 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> *chuckles at quotes as they bring back fond memories* don't worry Pip, so did I! So did I... -- angel's nibblet, 12:15:05 02/11/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> *Snortle* Thanks for this, Pip. :) -- Ixchel, 20:26:34 02/09/04 Mon

[> Even less serious motives -- Gyrus, 14:54:49 02/09/04 Mon

What do you think are their reasons for engaging in fights against vampires, other demons and other supernatural beings with dark purposes?

Buffy-"Because they're evil. And they smell. You viewers just can't understand the smell."

Spike-"Mostly the entertainment value. PASSIONS isn't on all day, you know."

Xander-"Chicks dig scars. Right?"

Willow-"It makes me think about monsters under the bed, which makes me want to look under the bed, which makes me want to vacuum under the bed. So it promotes neatness."

Giles-"Can you think of anything else I could be doing that wouldn't be monstrously dull?"

Dawn-"All the cool kids are doing it."

Anya-"I don't fight anything. I let other people do it. People who are more qualified, and less attached to their lives."

Faith-"Gets me in the mood, y'know?

Andrew-"Why do I hunt the vamPIRES, you ask? Well, gather 'round and listen, for mine is a tale of-OW! Spike, that hurt!"

the Potentials-"Peer pressure."

Oz-"Just because."

Riley-"Tazers, blasters, hand grenades .. did I say blasters already? 'Cause they're the coolest."

Robin Wood-"I needed some kind of exercise I wouldn't get bored with. Hopefully, my sword collection won't end up gathering dust in the garage like my treadmill."

Angel-"Every time I try to quit fighting evil, people keep bugging me until I start again.

Cordelia-"Demons must be destroyed. For the outfits, if nothing else."

Doyle-"The fact is, I owe a lot of them money."

Wesley-"In what other profession could I get away with having this manly facial hair and this nancy accent at the same time?"

Gunn-"'Cause I love watching the cops do double-takes when they see me coming up the street with an axe and a crossbow."

Fred-"Well, it was this or three more years of grad school, making $15,000 a year and living on Hamburger Helper. Without hamburger."

Lorne-"For some reason, demon body fluids don't stick to French viscose."

Connor-"None of your business."

Kate-"I shoot them, they fall down, they get up again. That just makes me nuts."

[> [> Serious -- Irene, 15:02:50 02/09/04 Mon

I'm sorry that most of you saw this as an opportunity to make fun of my post. I had been serious about what you thought about the characters' motives for fighting evil. I guess Briar Rose is the only who took it seriously. I won't bother you, again. I'm sure you will be happy to note my departure.

(Changed my mind)

I've changed my mind. I will continue to post messages on this forum. Nor will I apologize for my opinions. I'm not trying to start a debate or anything like that. I'm simply expressing my views and being honest about them.

[> [> [> Re: Serious -- Gyrus, 07:36:05 02/10/04 Tue

There's a difference between making fun of your posts and using them as an opportunity for humor. I saw your list and a lot of funny things came to mind.

By way of analogy, comedians make jokes related to the events of 9/11 all the time, but it doesn't mean that they are making light of them.

[> [> [> [> A little thing called respect.... -- Nino, 13:26:20 02/10/04 Tue

...someone politely brought up an issue regarding multiple name usegae and you have not even acknowledged his post...with all due respect, why should your posts be taken seriously if you are not going to respond to the accusation.

If you are in fact both Claudia and Irene (I'm not saying you are, but then, you aren't saying you aren't) there was a similar issue with you not marking spoilers, which is just common courtesy, and then being sarcastic when it was pointed out to you...if you don't respect other posters, why should they respect your posts.

I don't know, I'm not trying to stir up drama, but I just think you owe Dub a response. You probably won't respond to this either, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

[> [> LMAO! -- Arethusa, 15:58:27 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> [> Re: LMAO! -- Irene, 16:09:29 02/09/04 Mon

What does that stand for? LMAO?

[> [> [> [> It's in the FAQ. -- Arethusa, 16:23:47 02/09/04 Mon

It means Laugh My (Posterior) Off. There is more Board Slang in the FAQ, as well as board rules regarding censorship and posting names, the spoiler policy, and using html.

[> [> [> [> [> Why Did You Use the Term? -- Irene, 16:25:22 02/09/04 Mon

Do my posts bother you that much that you have make fun of me?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Click on my post, Irene -- Arethusa, 16:58:21 02/09/04 Mon

Up towards the top it says, "In reply to Gyrus's message, Even Less Serious Motives." I used the term because he or she made me laugh aloud. My post was not in reference to your posts.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What Is Your Serious Response? -- Irene, 14:24:07 02/11/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Seriously -- Arethusa, 21:53:56 02/11/04 Wed

Buffy -"This is the work I have to do.:

Spike-",,,To be a kind of man."

Xander-"I'm finished being everybody's butt-monkey! "

Willow- .. that's what I want to do. Fight evil, help people. I mean, I-I think it's worth doing .. . It's a good fight .. and I want in."

Giles-"It's a sacred duty"

Dawn-"I just... I just think I could help."

Anya-"When it's something that really matters, they fight. I mean, they're lame morons for fighting but they do. They never .. they never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting, too."

Faith-"The road to redemption is a rocky path.." " .. I dunno. Better at it, I guess."

Andrew"I think I'd like to finish out as one of those lame humans trying to do what's right."

the Potentials-"I don't want to die."

Oz-"Our lives are different than other peoples'."

Riley-"We're doing good here. Protecting the public. Removing the subterrestrial threat. It's work worth doing."

Robin Wood-"I wanna kill the monster who took my mother away from me."

Angel-"I always wanted to be a prince."

Cordelia-There's so much pain. We have to help them."
Doyle-"It's not just saving live, it's saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process."

Wesley-:+" .. We're doing a job-one soul at a time."

Gunn-It's about the mission, bro."

Fred-"It's about doing what's right."

Lorne-You think you're the first guy who ever rolled over, saw what was lying next to him and went 'Guyeah!'"
Connor-"They need to be stopped. "

Kate-"I am a cop. That is all I've ever... "

[> [> Brilliant! -- dub ;o), 18:28:24 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> Love these-especially Gunn!! -- Rahael, 18:40:02 02/09/04 Mon

[> [> Thanks, everybody! -- Gyrus, 09:16:25 02/10/04 Tue

[> [> Lol!! Thanks for these Gyrus! It was much needed. -- deeva, 09:34:51 02/10/04 Tue

[> [> Heh. -- cjl, 13:27:42 02/10/04 Tue

For some reason, I really like Fred's. We've all been there, right, fellow post-grads?

[> [> [> List -- Irene, 15:50:00 02/10/04 Tue

Why they fight:

Buffy-She fought because she believed that she has no choice, due to her being called as the Slayer. Out of a sense of duty that did not come from the heart.

Spike-He fought to originally win Buffy's heart. Later, he fought to help her and now, he fights either to piss off Angel or because he has nothing else to do.

Xander-He fought because of Buffy, and because the idea of being some kind of superhero that battles the supernatural evil appeals to his ego.

Willow-"See Xander"

Giles-Forced to become a Watcher, thanks to his father. Years of Watcher's mindset has left him with nothing else to do.

Dawn-Fought, because the idea of being some kind of superheroine battling the supernatural evil appealed to her ego.

Anya-Because Xander fought.

Faith-Because she believed that she has no choice as a Slayer and she enjoyed the rush and the power.

Andrew-The idea of fighting evil appealed to his ego and also to atone for his past-including the murder of Jonathan.

the Potentials-Believed they had no choice, due to being future Slayers and for personal survival.

Oz-Because Willow fought with Buffy and Xander.

Riley-Believed he was doing his duty to fight evil, as an Army officer and because of his ego.

Robin Wood-Sought revenge against the vampire who killed his mother; and by joining the fight, he believed that he would eventually come across said vampire.

Angel-Fought first for Buffy, out of a guilty desire to atone for his evil past and to achieve a destiny of Shanshu.

Cordelia-Originally needed a job to survive in L.A. and eventually to support Angel in his fight against evil. And because of her ego.

Doyle-Informed by the PTB that he was to act as liaison between them and Angel; coerced by Angel to physically join the fight against evil.

Wesley-Became a Watcher to live up to his father's expectations and continued the fight out of gratitude toward Angel and lack of experience in any other profession.

Gunn-Originally out of a desire to protect his neighborhood against vampires and other demons. Why he continues the fight, I have no idea.

Fred-Out of gratitude toward Angel for saving her life in Pylea.

Lorne-Hooked himself to the Fang Gang.

Connor-Trained and raised by foster father, Daniel Holtz, to kill vampires and other demons.

[> [> [> Oh lord yes... -- Random, 19:52:11 02/10/04 Tue

And Ramen noodles and rice and more bologna. than you can shake a stick of prosciutto at. Luckily, that helped us save enough beer money to get buzzed enough that we could forget about the miseries of our kitchen. Plus, hops and barley accounged for the grains requirement in our diet.

[> [> [> [> ahh....to be young again....wait, I'm in college right now...maybe I should be drunk right now -- Nino, 20:47:06 02/10/04 Tue

[> [> *rolling around laughing* -- phoenix, 05:01:36 02/11/04 Wed

Does the new army of slayers even the odds against forces of evil? -- angel, 18:54:46 02/06/04 Fri

Even with new slayers called there is still alot of evil out there and with hundreds or thousands per generation they will be spread pretty thin. Also there are beings or groups that could possibly take out a few or more trained slayers with ease. Plus the younger ones or those too old can be easlier targeted and taken out right now.


[> You make the new Slayers sound as if they're still Potentials:) -- BrianWilly, 01:12:04 02/07/04 Sat

First of all, hi everyone!...I'm new to the board, though I've been reading the website forever now.

I don't agree that there are beings or groups that could take on even a FEW trained, fully "awakened" Slayers, and especially not with ease. Individual Slayers are going to differ, of course, but look how powerful Buffy and Faith were, and how well they could handle themselves in the past...Slayers were made to combat demons, not the other way around. Even supremely powerful Big Bads like Glory or the Mayor or even Willow would find it very difficult indeed to take on a handful of Slayers at once. No, I don't think the Slayers are in SERIOUS risk, unless there was a very organized, VERY large scale, VERY powerful and well-run assault on the Slayer's forces, made by very powerful people with the means and knowledge to pull it off. The First's army of Turok-Han would obviously be such a force, and they've been extinguished.

(Though...I imagine Wolfram and Hart could possibly attempt to pull something like that off too...heh heh. Delicious plot suggestion.)

The Slayers who have yet to be contacted by the Scoobs are more vulnerable, yes...and probably wondering why they can suddenly benchpress Ferraris...but that's why the gang is out there now looking for them, to inform and protect them. Also, we have to assume that it's not the easiest task in the world to locate Slayers...after all, if it was, then the forces of darkness would have taken every opportunity throughout history to extinguish the line, and as far as we know no one but the First was able to attempt this. The only people we know who can locate Potentials are the ex-Watcher's Council(descendants of those who created Slayers in the first place), Willow's coven(extremely powerful), Willow herself(EXTREMELY POWERFUL), and the First(self-proclaimed baddest bad). We should assume therefore that the average awoken Slayer is not in any more danger than she was before she was Chosen, whether from natural dangers or supernatural threats...in fact, it's probably safe to say she's far more capable of defending herself than ever before!

Which brings me to the notion that the statement "There is a lot of evil out there" is a little questionable. Sure there's a lot of evil in itself throughout the world, but as far as we know evil of the mystical nature does not just happen to every average joe on the street. Remember, Sunnydale was on a Hellmouth, and LA is one of the busiest and biggest cities in the world. These situations makes the two supernatural hotspots rarities, not norms. I think it's safe to assume that these new Slayers will mostly be operating in cities with large amounts of supernatural or vampire activity, maybe even four or five to a city at once, and will therefore not be spread too thin. Obviously, tragedies will still happen, and one can't avoid casualties in the war, but the risks are significantly lower than, say, when there was only one Slayer.

In the past, just ONE Slayer per generation has been enough to fight [mystical] evil to a standstill. There's no reason to believe that even a few more Slayers, much less hundreds more, wouldn't logically tip the scales.

[> [> Re: You make the new Slayers sound as if they're still Potentials:) -- skpe, 07:56:20 02/07/04 Sat

I think that its more likely that the more serious threat to the new slayers would not be a direct attack by the forces of evil, but that they would be co-opted like the AI team. We know ,(from faith) that slayers can be led astray, that the government has an active recruitment program for those with mystical abilities,(Marci the invisible girl) and from the initiative that they know that slayers exists. So I think it more likely slayers would be "recruited" as assassins or "hit teams" for various covert agencies (Buffy Meets La Femm Nakita)

[> [> Agreeing with a lot, but disagree on one part -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:35:12 02/07/04 Sat

Willow could easily take on a group of Slayers. In Season 5 she could generate forcefields to hold off a hellgod, and this is before she absorbed buttloads of magic in "Grave". Add in the powers of pyrokenisis (turning creatures to ash with a thought), telekinesis (lifting a giant, stone altar out of the ground), and a host of other powers we've only seem glimpses of before, and you've got someone who could probably take out dozens of Slayers with ease.

In fact, there are several beings in the Buffyverse with the mystical abilities to totally trump Slayers: D'Hoffryn (perhaps the most powerful demon in the world, what with raising the dead and controlling time and all), Amy (she can just teleport them a couple miles into the air), the White Room Panther (nuclear scale evil), plus the PTB and Senior Partners. Granted, in a physical fight, few beings seem to have the ability to defeat a group of Slayers, but there are a number of mystical beings that are on a totally different playing field than Slayers could ever hope to be.

The Person Must Be...Drum Roll please...........(spoilers) -- buffyguy, 22:13:34 02/07/04 Sat

after some consideration and a little common sense mixed in for fun, i have come to the conclusion that the likely person that angel will call upon for help is GILES! When taking into account 1. the union jack, 2. andrew and his "mentor" giles, and 3. the fact that angel and spike will be going to england in a coming episode to do something or other, i can only conclude it to be Giles. Giles' residence is in england, so it would stand to reason he has a fairly sizable amount of litereature on demonology and magicks, seeing that hes a watcher. Taking the Union Jack as foreshadowing, one would conclude again that the person must be giles (cause he's english!). And because willows already been on it cant be her (as much as i want it to be). Buffy: no way, Xander: no, cause he has no magical expertise, Andrew: already been on, Faith: been on too much, Wood: no need whatsoever, and Dawn: well, lets just say big sis wouldnt want little miss "im the key" frolicking about with her ex and his cohorts at Hell inc. I dont know about kennedy though. But shes just a slayer...(funny how now with thousands of em around we can use that phrase) and shes got no magical skills aside from kicking ass royally. So the only LOGICAL choice is giles. It will be EXTREMELY interesting to see his interactions with the MoG, expecially Wesley and Angel. But i think he'd mostly take a liking to Fred since she is so damned smart concerning both the physical and metaphysical. Tood bad she is supposed to be comatose or dead when he gets there. Anyone agree that its Giles?


[> Future spoilers/speculation in above post! -- Jane, 22:54:45 02/07/04 Sat

[> [> just a clarification -- buffyguy, 22:59:53 02/07/04 Sat

do we have to be precise in the heading? i mean, do we have to say what eppisode we are spoiling or how and what we are spoiling?...just so i know for future reference.

and i would love feedback on the topic mentioned in the first post...this stuff is juicy...i love speculating

[> [> [> Re: just a clarification -- Jane, 00:18:31 02/08/04 Sun

Like many other people on this board, I prefer to come to an episode without prior knowledge about it. If a post has spoilers or speculation about an episode, I really appreciate it if the poster indicates in the subject that there is spoiler info about the episode. If you indicate the episode number you are discussing, then I can avoid the post until I have seen the episode. Hope this helps clarify it for you.

[> [> [> Another generally accepted move... -- KdS, 02:10:43 02/08/04 Sun

Is to refer to "future spoilers" in the heading if you are referring to episodes which have not been broadcast anywhere in the world. Plain "spoilers" is usually used to refer to posts dealing with episodes that have been recently broadcast in the USA.

[> [> [> [> Re: Another generally accepted move... -- buffyguy, 10:03:42 02/08/04 Sun

gotcha...i shall be more diligent in this area...so now to the content of the spoiler...any takers?

[> [> [> [> [> I'll **SPOILERY SPECULATE** for ya... -- dub ;o), 16:07:10 02/08/04 Sun

I think you've got about a 50% chance of being right with Giles, for the reasons you list, and a 50% chance that it's going to be Willow, because there have been rumors that Alyson will appear as a guest star this year, but no rumors that ASH will.

Either one of them is powerful enough and knowledgeable enough to be of great help to Angel & Co. in the upcoming situation.

BUT...if you really want/love to discuss spoilers and want all the latest ones, you really should go to the Trollop Board (link above) where it's all spoilers, all the time. That way you can be sure you won't bum anybody else out by unintentionally telling them something they don't wanna know.


[> [> [> [> [> [> speculation based on future casting rumors above ; ) -- Masq, 16:24:23 02/08/04 Sun

Line between 'C' and 'D' (Spoilers for You're Welcome) -- Athena, 00:07:08 02/08/04 Sun

I was looking over some posts on the board and noticed someone (sorry I don't remember who) saying the Cordelia we saw seemed like an idealised version of her, giving the example of how she was a perfect shape despite her month in a coma, and how her behavior seemed like Cordy at her very best.

Her looks, behavior and efforts to put the Fang Gang back on track seemed reminds me heavily of the "messenger" Darla towards Connor in "Inside Out". Both women are the most-likely to influence those they appear to, Cordelia because is one of the most trusted members of the gang, Darla because not only because she is Connor's mother, but because he has been convinced that no one except Jasminized-Cordy loves him. Cordelia and Darla as look fantastic and seem to be behaving in amazing balance of bluntness and understanding.

There are only a few differences:
1. Cordelia is listened to, while Darla is completely rejected.
2. Cordelia touches things, while Darla doesn't.

Number 1 can simply be explained by the fact that nothing is certain. Number 2 I believe can be explained that nothing I saw Cordelia physically do wasn't something, someone else would've succeeded in doing. Under these credentials, Darla couldn't interfere with the murder of that poor girl in "Inside Out". On top of that, Connor knew she was dead, he's a lot less likely to believe she is magically alive again instead of being a ghost.

Whether they're really Darla and Cordelia is uncertain, but both appear as something similar to divine messengers. They appear as ideal individuals by what are definitely not normal means, and both serve as more inspiration than muscle.

a few questions (spoilers late season 3 and season 4) -- buffyguy, 11:49:09 02/08/04 Sun

I have four questions regarding the events that surround jasmine. 1. how can we really be sure that jasmine was actually a power-that-is (or -was as the case may be)? We only have her word and skip's, right? and since when do we take the word of a demon and a seemingly ultra-powerful-semi-quasi-goddess-type person as fact? How do we know she wasnt just a very powerful demon with dreams of world domination and skip was her lacky. well skip was her lacky regardless but thats beside the point. The point is we have never seen a Power and dont know what they look like.

Other question; was cordy possessed from her return to the earthly plane onward or was it after she conceived jasmine and she took her body over? i always get that mixed up. I guess, she must have been from the time she came back casue sane cordy would have never done the nasty with her best friends kid.

nest question: was cordy with the powers in that higher dimension of hers or was she all by her lonesome? i mean, did joss or anyone give us any info as to the nature of the higher dimension she was in?

last question, i swear! are the powers-that-be like the "Ultimate God" figure in the Jossverse? i mean, we've seen beings of good in such entities as whistler, the oracles (one step up i would assume), and then the powers-that-be. So are they the Ultimate Force of Good in the Jossverse or what; has he said anything about the nature of them and if there are any being higher up in the "food chain" so to speak? I guess, would that make the First the Satan of the Jossverse, since it is the first evil and presumably in the western world Satan is regarded as the first evil? Sorry about the long post, im just very currious about the metaphysics part of it.


[> Re: a few questions (spoilers late season 3 and season 4) -- Mighty Mouse, 12:48:51 02/08/04 Sun

Answer #1-Joss 'n co. usually don't simply thrust the information in our direction, but since lying about whether or not Jasmine was a "Power that Be (Was)" wouldn't really serve any purpose (As they said she was a Rogue Power, it doesn't mean that Angel 'n co. would lose any faith in the Powers that Be ... not that they really had any in the first place), and as Joss 'n co. probably won't elaborate on the subject, we'll just have to go with the general belief that she was an actual Power that Was.

Answer #2-The entity "hitch-hiked" with Cordelia back to the Earthly plane, however, she did not take control of her until Cordelia's memories were put into place. She was "dormant" within her until that point.

Answer #3-Joss is usually deliberately non-revealing about this sort of stuff. All we saw was "St. Cordy glowing" with her funny commentary for a few episodes in some glowing realm.

Answer #4-Joss usually stays away from "Who is God" and "Who is the Devil" etc. The Powers that Be essentially seem to be beings whose interests lie in seeing humanity not get overrun by Demons. Jasmine suggested that the Powers that Be & Demons in general all used to be united as "one force." Then a portion of that force turned dark, evil, and the Powers That Be essentially fled (I'm not sure if that force was Demons originally ... or the First Evil which may or may not have laid the path for Demons to rise). The First Evil's origins are sort of confusing. It was said to have been here before everything else was, but at the same time it says it exists as a manifestation of the evil in all humanity. My theory is that the First Evil did exist before everything, but it has just drawn its power from "the evil of humanity," acting as a balance for the good out there.

[> Re: a few questions (spoilers late season 3 and season 4) -- luvthistle1, 04:35:38 02/09/04 Mon

I will try and answer them.

I. we can not be sure that Jasmine was an ptb, beside the fact that she was killing evil and got rid of W&H. but she also worked with Evil. why did they trust skip the first time he made Cordy half demon? after all, Angel did had to fight him in hell. the fact that he was in hell in the first place, should have been questionable.
The only person that seem to confirm Jasmine being a ptb, besides Skip was Lilah.

Question 2: Cordy was possessed since season 4 "The House Always Wins" when she return at the end of the episode. Jamine was alseep inside of her, until she awaken in "spin the bottle" . ( the end of spin the bottle, when Lorne gave her her memories back)

So from "spin the bottle" on that was Jasmine. Cordy would not have done the nasty with Connor, she had already stated ( In STB) that he wasn't her type.

Question#3: Well that's a tough question. Skip implied In "inside out " that Cordy was never ment to be an "high
being" ( if you think about Cordy had did no more than Buffy, or angel and neither of them was promoted to "higher- being status, so why would Cordy make it there so fast, when she was finish with her redemption. she was really nasty to people most of her life, until going on angel and only than did she try and mend her ways)

So , I will say that Cordy never made it up there with the real ptb.

Question# 4: The PTB are suppose to be the Ultimate God. the good guys ( figurely) . the ptb is what people refer to when something "Good " happen, but they do not know why , or how. but according to Buffy, in "i remember you", they could be an couple of prankers.

The board is what we make it -- Masquerade, 13:39:48 02/08/04 Sun


Gather around and attend to a most unusual tale... a tale about a group of erudite, funny and intelligent people who liked to post and chat about two television shows, Angel the Series and Buffy, The Slayer of the Vam-pyres.

Eons ago, in the City by the Bay, a marginally wise, non-dead philosopher decided to heed the urgings of her much wiser internet compatriots and add a discussion board to her year-and-a-half-old website, All Things Philosophical. On a hot summer's day in June of 2000, she linked her site to a free internet threaded board hosted by InsideTheWeb.

Thusly, the first home of the ATPo board was born.


That's, um...really great, but we...actually know all that.


You think you know, my good man. You think you know.

Ahem. Not knowing what to do with a discussion board or how to run one, our marginally wise philosopher went back to analyzing BtVS and Angel episodes and let the newly-made board fend for itself.

Then time went by, and a most extraordinary thing happened. Wise, eloquent fans of the shows who prided themselves on thinking way too much started to wander into this discussion board, and filled its meandering threads with insightful thoughts on characters, literary subtext, metaphor, art and film critiques, political analyses, post-modern visions, and yes, even philosophy.


That's the ATPo board we know and love!


Yes, attractive slender woman. And it was a wonderful place to be. The posters there were friendly and polite, responding to each other with thoughtful reasoned arguments, compliments and constructive criticism, and shared laughter. Not everyone was a master essayist, but everyone was welcome who wanted to join in on the spirit of things, even if it was just to talk about chocolate, cats, Canadians, or to drool over characters in posts labeled deceptively as "Angel reading Sartre".

The ATPo board's reputation grew and still more people came. They started to talk about their non-fandom lives. They started forming friendships, romances. They clamored to have a place where they could find out about each other, and post their essays and fic permanently. A beneficent goddess who graced the board with her presence, Liquidram, started a site known as Existential Scoobies, which was the name all these learned people had given themselves.

Liquidram created a chat room for people to discuss the shows and get to know each other. She offered up her own server space for archives so that people could read what had been written before.

Meanwhile, our marginally wise philosopher was sitting back in stupefied amazement. Her contribution to "The Board" as it had come to be known was to make archives, drag back threads from the mouth of the Voynak demon, and format poster profiles. The wonderfulness that was the board belonged not to her, but to each and every poster who started a thread, who responded to someone else's thread, and who enjoyed the company of their fellow posters.

The ATPo board had its share of setbacks.

* Many trolls stomped through, inciting to riot (and we could tell you stories!). But the typical response of the Existential Scoobies was to change the subject of the inflammatory thread and continue to enjoy each other's conversation.
* Posters who were a bit "challenging" and confrontational joined the board, and we were not always patient with them. But we all learned to get along or they chose on their own to go elsewhere.
* When the board was moved over to Voy, we discovered we had put ourselves into the clutches of a hungry demon who devoured young, helpless threads whole. Fighting the Voynak demon became a common occurrence.
* Then the show Buffy, Slayer of the Vam-pyres ended after seven years and many posters despaired and left us. But new posters came to take their place, to talk about Angel the Series and to analyze BtVS in its glorious completeness.

The board survived all this, and thrived.

But alas, the existence of all internet discussion boards is a tenuous thing. The nature of the medium almost guarantees that this will be so. Some of us have met each other in the flesh, and know each other pretty well. Most of us have not. Either way, the textual, faceless nature of the internet lends itself to misunderstandings, to lowered inhibitions, to expressions of emotion we might hesitate to show in real life.

Even the marginally wise philosopher has been guilty of taking snipes at other posters when her hot button has been inadvertently pushed.

But the wise long-time posters of the board had foreseen this inevitability and put their heads together to devise a FAQ with some ground rules and suggestions to keep the experience of posting on the board a pleasant one.

Because we don't agree about everything that goes on in the shows we love. We want to defend the things we do like. We want to feel free to critique the things we don't like. And we want to have a place where we feel safe doing both. We know people will disagree with us, but that's how we learn to appreciate things in the show we never saw before. And sometimes we feel firm in our positions, our feelings, or opinions. And that's when we graciously agree to disagree.

Sadly, it doesn't always work this way. There are always anomalies that no one could have foreseen--unexpected and controversial events on the shows, personality mismatches between posters, or bad days in our off-lines lives--all sorts of things can lend themselves to an atmosphere where posters don't feel comfortable or safe anymore.


"Anomalies" are usually just that--passing events that effect one or a few posters and go away. But when they start to add up, it creates a noticeable unpleasantness on the board that everyone can feel.


My hypothesis exactly, Pryce. And there's only one solution for a board such as this. This board became the place it is because of the posters who visit it. People who want to discuss Angel the Series, and Buffy, the Slayer of the Vam-pyres together in a friendly, sometimes deep, and civilized way. The posters made this place special, they set the mood. The board is whatever we make it.

It's a choice. A choice each of us makes everyday when we come to the board.


[> Re: The board is what we make it -- Cheryl, 13:56:18 02/08/04 Sun

Thanks, Andrew, uh, I mean Masq. Although I don't post often, and never as eloquently as many here, a day doesn't go by that I don't check in and read the posts. It's made my viewing of Angel and Buffy much more enjoyable and enlightening.

So my thanks to Masq and everyone else here who contributes to the lively and entertaining discussions.


[> [> I guess I sort of walked into the one! ; ) -- Masq, 14:21:51 02/08/04 Sun

Now everyone is going to be calling me "Andrew" instead of "The First Evil".

Oy, the irony of it all!

[> [> [> Re: I guess I sort of walked into the one! ; ) -- VR, 18:16:40 02/08/04 Sun

But, the First Evil IS Andrew. "The FE's" talks with "Andrew" were just his bouts of schizophrenia.

Why do you think Andrew didn't die?

The First Evil is still crazy.

[> Bravo and Brava to all of the "cast members"! Beautifully stated, Narrator-Lady! ;o) -- The Cheerleadery One, 13:57:20 02/08/04 Sun

[> [> In the chorus of guys backing up Rob with more pom-poms... -- Cactus Watcher, 14:37:18 02/08/04 Sun

[> [> [> Now there's a visual... -- Masq, 16:14:16 02/08/04 Sun

[> Re: The board is what we make it -- Ann, 14:09:33 02/08/04 Sun

"We have great freedom and that's a blessing. What must happen is that some mythological instruction should be added to our freedom, so that the individual can find his own myth, his individual meaning in that freedom."
~ from The Way of Myth-J. Campbell

For me, this is what happens, and I what receive at this board. Masq gives us this and we learn and share.
Thank you all.

[> :-) Wise Words -- Nino, 14:40:28 02/08/04 Sun

[> [> A standing ovation for Masq.(AKA Andrew the wise :D) -- Jane, 15:45:34 02/08/04 Sun

[> *furious applause* we all bow down before your board mistress-ness :-D -- angel's nibblet, 15:30:45 02/08/04 Sun

[> A far more than marginally wise philospher -- Sara, happily sitting at Masq's knee, 16:25:58 02/08/04 Sun

has told us an awfully good story. That was just lovely Masq!

[> thanks alot for that :) -- Giles & Nick, 20:02:16 02/08/04 Sun

nick and I, being young-uns and newer citizens of this great board, thanks you for not only teacing us a bit of history about the board, but doing it your way and doing ti fantastical.

[> [> Masq, you are the best! so well stated. -- Briar Rose, 11:03:34 02/09/04 Mon

[> Re: The board is what we make it -- phoenix, 10:26:07 02/09/04 Mon

*sigh* That was great.

Although I don't post here often, I have been lurking, and enjoying the many and varied discussions on this board, for over a year. It provides a wonderful meeting ground for people, and I've come to love it. I check in most days to see what's happening, to gather more food for thought, or sometimes just to have a damn good laugh -- the 'bloody stupid hair' thread comes to mind (-:

I just wanted to say thanks to Masq for starting it, and to all the posters who make it what it is. Even though I don't know any of you, you have, at times, enriched my life. Long may it continue.

[> preserving -- Masq, 09:32:41 02/10/04 Tue

A name unsaid: Family relationships in Damage (spoilers for AtS S5 including 'You're Welcome') -- Pip, 17:23:07 02/08/04 Sun

There are two major 'family' relationships in Damage. One is between Spike and Angel. The other is between Spike and Andrew. I've already discussed in Growing Up and Parenting Skills (which has now wandered off to the Archives) that I think Angel and Spike are being set up as a parent-child relationship where one side is visibly more distant than the other. Angel sees Spike as a grandchild he'd rather not have, Spike sees Angel as the only father-figure he's got.

Andrew arrives on the scene in Damage with a hairstyle that's very, very similar to young William's in Destiny. In case we haven't got that hint to remind us that Andrew is probably very like the young Spike (or maybe never watched BtVS Season 7), in the dockside scene Andrew proceeds to call Spike 'bro' and 'brother'. And to finally add the cherry on top of the sundae, Andrew yammers incessantly to Spike, just as Angel had complained of the young Spike doing to him (Just Rewards).

In other words, Spike and Andrew are acting as big brother/little brother. And their colouring isn't very different at all [grin]. This is, incidentally, a role they're both used to. Andrew suffered the in-joke of being 'Tucker's brother' throughout BtVS Seasons 6 and 7. Basically, he was identified as 'the little brother'. Spike acted as a 'big brother' to Dawn throughout much of Seasons 5 and 6 (and for all we know, may have implanted Season 4 memories as well). It's well within the previous characterisations for Spike and Andrew to follow that pattern; they both know the appropriate roles.

This arrival of a little brother for Spike [as well as being yet another 'growing up' metaphor] brings up the ghost of someone whose name is never mentioned once throughout Damage. Connor. Angel's son, younger than Spike. The mind boggles at trying to describe what relationship Connor and Spike actually have (lemme see, my father is your Grandsire and my mother was your Great-Grandsire, so that makes us .. ), but they'd probably develop an emotional older brother/younger brother relationship. Especially since they could bond over their shared opinion that Angel is a selfish, self-righteous bastard. :-)

At least, they might have developed such a relationship given the chance. But Angel has handed Connor over to the care of others, and wiped any memory of him from AI. Spike probably never even knew of Connor's existence. There's only Andrew, for one night only-Andrew who, like Connor, made a trip over to the dark side but who managed to come back. Andrew, whose second line in Damage starts 'My therapist said .. '[And let us just pause to salute Andrew-for being one of the very few people in the Buffyverse who has actually admitted he needs a therapist :-)] Andrew, who is almost certainly meant to suggest the possibility that Connor might one day have recovered from his traumas. Andrew, the little brother. Replacing Connor.

It's worthwhile comparing the way Angel treats Spike with the way Spike treats Andrew. The first point of comparison is that while Spike is clearly deeply, deeply embarrassed by Andrew hugging him, he lets him do it (even though he won't hug Andrew back). Angel, in a similar situation in Destiny, wouldn't allow Spike to even touch him (he actually says 'Stop touching me.'). This follows on in the last scene of Damage, where for all Angel's verbal honesty he is still flatly refusing to touch Spike. Spike still can't reach out-this time because of the damage to his hands. Angel, whose hands are undamaged, has stuck them deep into his pockets.

The second point of comparison is that while both Angel and Spike think their 'junior' is a bit of an idiot, Angel is not only unsupportive, but shares his low opinion with both colleagues and total strangers. In the scene in the mental hospital, Angel manages to find five different ways of saying 'I don't want you here' in his first five lines -which is quite a feat [grin]. He then tells Spike 'you're not helping' in front of Dr. Rabinaw (which is the point that Spike decides to leave abruptly). And when Spike is gone, Angel calls him a 'pathological idiot'. Interestingly, the second time that Spike rushes off to find Dana is also when Angel publicly insults him-by calling him a murderer and suggesting that Spike's soul has made no difference to him (in front of Andrew and the entire AI team).

Spike, on the other hand, does not run down Andrew in front of the AI team, not even when Andrew is making a complete idiot of himself. It's worth noting that Spike knows the story of the Slayers at least as well as Andrew; but he lets 'the top man have a go'. His one comment comes after Andrew has choked on his pipe, and it doesn't comment on Andrew's lousy performance. It is simply a statement: 'Little Sunnydale surprise', which gets Andrew back on track without it being obvious that this is what Spike is doing.

The sarcasm, the 'what are you doing out here', they're all saved for the moments when Spike and Andrew are alone with each other. And once Andrew has made it clear that he will tag along, like it or not, Spike lets him without any more comment. Again, this is unlike Angel, whose suggestions to Spike include 'you're not handling anything', 'you think this is a joke', 'you will, when she's staking you in the heart'.

It's already been suggested on this board that Damage is about the cycle of abusive relationships. One of the things that struck me about Spike's 'growing up' metaphors in AtS Season 5 is their sheer normality. The baby turned smoothly into the toddler, the toddler started to be able to help the adults. The teenager didn't kill his 'father', or get thrown out of the house. Andrew's 'little brother' gets Spike's affection and support. The disastrous events with Dana provoke mature reflection rather than 'it wasn't my fault'. The implication is that Spike is growing up right this time.

And that was something else that Andrew's arrival threw into sharp relief. The problems Spike has been having connecting with Angel and some of AI are problems that starts at the LA group's end. Andrew showed very clearly that he loved Spike, and was delighted at his survival. The audience also saw that this season's over-abrasive Spike personality is partly a response to Angel-look how much he reverts to 'S7 Sunnydale Spike' with Andrew.

That was the keynote contrast for the two relationships. The Angel-Spike relationship shows as abusive. The Spike-Andrew relationship shows as normal and healthy (if Spike could hug back, it'd be even healthier). Spike can't bear to touch Andrew-because it's in front of Angel. Then Angel verbally abuses him-and Spike rushes off to a situation where he physically loses any ability to touch. Spike's arms can be repaired (in the same way that Spike is 'repairing' himself?), but Angel, theoretically whole, is the one then refusing to touch.

There's another point. It's easy to think that Spike's major injuries are entirely his fault. He did rush in without thinking. [All together now: he rushed in where Angel feared to tread]. He was over confident. It's another 'young adult'/growing up metaphor; youthful impetuosity leads to hospitalisation. He didn't recognise how serious the situation was, and he got in over his head.

But the other side to this coin is that Angel, the guy whose life Spike saved last week (which we're deliberately reminded of in the mental hospital), Spike's grandsire, gives Spike no back-up whatsoever. None. The structure of Angel's discovery of Dana's Slayer nature is timed in the script for before Spike finds Dana. Angel makes a phone call about his discovery to Wesley, sitting safely in his office. There's no contact with Spike, about to get thrown out of a top floor window.

Angel also doesn't admit that Spike can be of any help. There's a long meeting at Wolfram and Hart, there's a psychic visit to Dana's old house, there's Lorne desperately wanting a drink, all because no one knows where Dana is. Meanwhile, Angel isn't talking to Spike, who has already shown that he can locate Dana (and who by the looks of it, wins the Vampire Awards 'tracker of the year' on a regular basis). He's helpfully suggested that Dana is capable of killing Spike, and then left Spike to get on with it. No suggestion of any team in support. Not even an offer of 'call me if you find her, I'll send a team with trank guns.'

Compare this with Spike and Andrew. Andrew follows Spike without permission, but Spike won't let Andrew wander around by himself and allows him to tag along. Andrew tries to support Spike in the initial fight with Dana, and when Dana captures Spike it is Andrew, acting as back up, who tells Wolfram and Hart that Spike is in big trouble. Spike allowed Andrew to help, even though he probably didn't think Andrew would be much use. Andrew ended up saving Spike's life, simply by being available to go for help.

In the one case we have the Angel Investigations disconnect, in the other the old Sunnydale teamwork. And the theme continues that needing Angel more than he needs you is a really bad position to be in. Angel doesn't like Spike. Angel doesn't want Spike. It's Spike who, throughout this episode, shares the information and theories he's got with Angel. It's Spike who shows how much he wants Angel's respect, both by having to leave the room when Angel runs him down in front of others, and by trying to show that he can do Angel's old job just as well, if not better.

It's very likely that Angel needs to rescue Dana. Angel probably sees a lot of Connor in Dana, a Connor as he could have been without the W&H deal-traumatised by the childhood abuse, on the violent ward without much hope of recovery. Dana's even someone who hunts down vampires. She's a substitute. He couldn't rescue Connor, but he can still rescue her. And Dana makes no emotional demands of Angel whatsoever-she doesn't even know he exists.

It's a reprise of Unleashed. Angel is concentrating all the resources on the girl turned into a monster through no fault of her own. Spike gets told to stop bothering him. In both episodes Spike ends up getting the resources he needs through an intermediary. In Unleashed it's Fred, using W&H's science resources, and getting Angel's grudging permission to go over budget (in Hellbound). In Damage it's Andrew, rushing back to W&H offices to use their tactical resources to save Spike.

Is Angel in the cellar to rescue Spike, or to rescue Dana? His first line is to Dana, telling her that he's here to help her. His tactical team concentrates entirely on Dana. The medical team is only called after Dana has been taken care of. And throughout that entire scene in the cellar, Angel addresses not one word to Spike (who is conscious). He also prioritises Dana in the next scene. Angel is by Dana's gurney; it's Fred who gets into the ambulance with Spike. Yet again, Angel hands over the care of his 'child' to someone else. Was that the right decision?

Let's look at this scene. By now we have three reflections of Connor in this episode. There's Spike, almost but not quite a son. He's being handed over to the care of Wolfram and Hart medical team to recover, in the same way Connor was handed over to the care of a Wolfram and Hart provided foster family. There's Dana, mentally ill and possibly beyond recovery. Angel is planning to take her into his care. And there's Andrew, making a healthy recovery from his traumas and no longer needing to be looked after by anyone.

It's this healthy, recovered, almost grown up reflection of Connor who tells Angel that he is no longer trusted to take care of Dana. So little trusted, in fact, that Andrew's willing to fight for the care of Dana. And even Angel pauses when he says 'I'm not turning her over'. Pauses, and qualifies it with 'to you.'

And then, of course, Andrew delivers the final body blow. Nobody trusts Angel. Not even Buffy. Is Andrew telling the truth? Well, if he isn't, he should be, because this is Angel's low point, the point where he has shown himself to be comprehensively unworthy of any trust at all. His closest friends have had their memories altered. His son has been given away to strangers. His vampiric grandchild has just been badly injured (partly because Angel failed to give him any support), but would be alone in the ambulance if it weren't for Fred. Whilst Angel takes care of a stranger.

Everyone who has any emotional tie to Angel has now been abandoned, abused or betrayed by him. Even Buffy had her memory wiped in I Will Remember You.

It's worth noting the way the scene is structured. The ambulance with Spike leaves before the confrontation with Andrew. If Angel had decided, for once (by going with Spike in the ambulance), to care for someone whose emotional need of Angel was greater than his need of them, he would never have been told that he isn't trusted to care properly for Dana. He would never have been told of Buffy's lack of trust. Angel is told this because he has just shown, again, that he is unworthy of her (or anyone's) trust. He has just shown that he is incapable of proper care. And he is told all this by Spike's 'little brother', a boy who is standing in the role that Connor should have been filling.

The image that stays most in my mind from the final scene in the hospital is not Spike and Angel's moment of self-honesty. It's Angel, standing in the dark, with his hands kept firmly in his pockets. Refusing to reach out. Giving Spike a gift by sharing his self-honesty, but even in that moment telling one tiny self-serving lie. He tells Spike that Andrew didn't trust 'us' to help Dana. He should have used the word 'me'.

And it occurs to me that helping Angel out of this pit of self-isolation, helping him to stop lying to himself even when he thinks he is being most honest, will require a miracle.

Enter Cordelia.


[> Re: A name unsaid: Family relationships in Damage (spoilers for AtS S5 including 'You're Welcome') -- Corwin of Amber, 20:40:42 02/08/04 Sun

The problem is-can you really picture either Angel or Spike TOUCHING at this time?

Cut to:
His arms bandaged but now reattached, Spike's sitting in a hospital bed, wearing a white hospital gown. Angel walks up to the doorway.

Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off.

(walks in)
A lot of pain?
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

(sobs loudly)

Uh...right. What's got your kitty in a blender?

(rushes forward and embraces Spike, still sobbing)

Hey! Hey! Stop that! HELP! NURSE! He's trying to kill me!
(tries to hit the buzzer, finds it difficult with his numbed hands)

WESLEY, GUNN and FRED walk in.

Angel's trying to kill Spike! Wesley, do something!

(babbles incoherently, apparently having a flashback to his own assault by Angel last year)

Charles! Do something!

Angel, calm down! You'll be looking at an assault charge at least! Or maybe even murder! Think about what you're doing...

Oh, you two are useless! No wonder I'm boinking Knox!
(Grabs a vase from nightstand by the bed and breaks it over Angel's head, knocking him out cold.)

(thanks to www.buffy-vs-angel.com for their wonderful transcripts)

[> [> No, not a sob and hug fest :-) -- Pip, 05:09:07 02/09/04 Mon

The problem is-can you really picture either Angel or Spike TOUCHING at this time?

As in your very funny sob and hug fest? No way!

But Angel giving Spike one very brief touch on the shoulder? Or Angel tentatively reaching out to Spike and then deciding not to touch him?

Either of those actions would have completely changed the scene dynamics. Though I do rather like the idea of a shocked Fred knocking Angel out with the vase [grin].

[> [> [> Re: No, not a sob and hug fest :-) -- Corwin of Amber, 07:29:00 02/09/04 Mon

Thanks, I should probably apologize for hijacking your thread though. But that scene just popped into my head and had to come out.

I know what you meant...but the space that Angel is in right now, he won't be reaching out to anybody for a while. Especially not Spike. It's big for him just to visit him in the hospital.

[> Interesting post-fathers, sons, and daughters (spoilers for AtS up to 5.11') -- s'kat, 06:28:11 02/09/04 Mon

I've been quietly reading your "Spike as the metaphor for growing up" posts for a while now and this one may have nailed it for me.

I think you are right: we are dealing with the cycle of parental abuse metaphor, and this being Angel's show-he's at the center of it. How does someone who felt rejected by his father and never felt he could live up to his father's approval, possibly even hated his father, deal with a son or a daughter?

In Prodigal-Kate's father asks Angel a question that appears to be haunting him throughout the series: Do you have children? It's easy to judge me, but wait until you have a son of your own. Until then you have no idea what a father feels. The end of Prodigal is haunting as well: We see Kate's father's grave-which echoes Liam's (Angel) father standing over his grave towards the beginning of the episode...only to have the newly resurrected Angel show up at his doorstep to kill him. Isn't it interesting-that Angel watches Kate's father die in the same manner he killed his father? By a vampire's bite.

In case we've forgotten the imagery-it's repeated in Season 3-with Holtz. Where we watch Angel kill Holtz's family and specifically his children, turning one, the daughter into a vampire. Interesting that Angelus seems to go for daughters-trying to turn "daughters" against their fathers. I always wondered why ME chose a girl for that scene instead of a boy, the boy would have been a better parallel to Connor or so I would have thought. But they choose a girl instead. Maybe because the girl fits the imagery of Dru, Buffy,-the idea of taking over as father figure to the girl-which goes all the way back, once again to Prodigal-where the first person Angel kills is the little girl, his sister, who is also the person who gives Liam his new name-Angel-Angelus. Angel by biting his sister and killing her-takes his father's place in the family. An act he repeats again and again-with Buffy in Passion, where he tortures Buffy by torturing Giles, then in Becoming, taking the old man again. Or in Whats My Line, where he takes her father's place, Hank who used to take her ice skating, at the skating rink. With Faith-who seems to have two fathers-the evil Mayor who pulls her to the dark side, and Angel who pulls her out of the abyss towards redemption. With Drusilla, whom he does the opposite with-creating a mad demonic child, a vampire who will always call him Daddy. And with Holtz's daughter-whom he turns into a vampire which Holtz is forced to destroy.

As vengeance, Holtz takes Angel's son and turns the boy, torturing him, so that boy ends up for Angel much like Holtz's daughter was to Holtz, a child who could not be reclaimed. So we turn to the son metaphors in the series-shown first with Penn in the Sonmabulist-who is trained by Angelus, to become a weak copy of his father, doing the same crimes over and over-killing Dad and the rest of his family. Then with Holtz-a harsh representative of Liam's own father? Perhaps? Then with Connor-the rebellious boy, so like his father, yet so different. The boy who is both afraid of becoming his father and desires it, to the extent he sleeps with and falls for his father's love interest and surrogate mother. Giving birth to-ironically enough, a demi-god of a daughter, who devours those who worship her-an interesting, perhaps unintentional commentary on Angel/Angelus own twisted relationships with his surrogate daughters? Jasmine after all does the same thing with her sons that Angel does with his daughters-eats them and loves them. Dru-he bites and turns. (Dear Boy, Becoming I) His sister. (The Prodigal) Faith he bites and is pulled into hell. (Release to Orpheus) Buffy-he bites and almost kills after she pushes him into it (Graduation Day I). Ironically, Angel's biting of each of these women reminds me of the scenes of Jasmine devouring her worshippers-a voluntary act of eating and love. And it is Connor who ends up killing Jasmine, the father killing the daughter once again. An act that seems to drive Connor over the edge, until Angel is forced to wipe him clean in order to reclaim Conner's life, but is Angel reclaiming a life or merely substituting one, altering reality in order to do it? Is that perhaps his biggest mistake? And is it one that could very well create a hole in Angel's universe dooming his friends?

Then we have Spike, the forgotten son. The reminder of what he was. The reminder of his failures. His sins. His guilt. With Spike present, Angel can no longer deny Angelus lurks inside, Spike always reminds him otherwise. Just as Connor did-constantly telling Angel that Angelus was there too. A part of him. Everyone else told Angel-Angelus isn't you, except his two sons, the vampire grandson and the human/demon boy. I wonder sometimes if one of the problems parents have with children-is their inability to separate their identities from their child's. (How many people have you heard describe having a children as a means of "carrying on their legacy, carrying on their family name" or making them immortal by carrying on a part of them?) Sometimes parents see too much of themselves reflected within the child's face and demeanor-they see their own reflections, instead of seeing who the child is, separate from them. Instead of wanting the child to fulfill it's own destiny, sometimes the parent sees his child as a second chance of fulfilling his. How much of myself is in my child? Perhaps this is my chance to live a different life than the one I got?

That was certainly the case with Angel and Connor-expressed in Lullaby through Sleep Tight-Angel saw Connor as his/Angel's second chance at life. A type of shanshue. Connor comments on this in Peace-Out in his speech to Cordy, about how his father wants him to follow in his footsteps and Connor doesn't really want that. Does Angel realize this in Home-is this the reason he makes that deal? To give Connor that chance to have a life separate from his? And is he also attempting that with Spike? Is he struggling with the same issues regarding Spike? Could that be part of his problem with Spike following in his footsteps, not the fear Spike will take his place and sub-plant him so much as the fear that Spike is merely another reflection of him? Not sure about that one. At any rate Angel's attitude towards Spike seems to be the opposite of his attitude towards Connor-whom he wanted to be a "champion" or to take his place, with Spike, he wishes Spike would just go away. Perhaps the reminder of Connor is just too brutal?

Interesting to contemplate. Thank you for showing me an angle in Damage and the series I hadn't really noticed until now.


[> [> Minor Correction -- Dlgood, 07:31:46 02/09/04 Mon

And with Holtz's daughter-whom he turns into a vampire which Holtz is forced to destroy.

Angelus didn't turn Holtz's daughter-he's killing Caroline Holtz at the time. Darla turns the daughter, and it seems to have been her idea, not his.

[> [> Am I the only one? (spoiler 5.1? -- tam, 12:24:53 02/09/04 Mon

Am I the only one who sees something -- I don't know, tender? fatherly? -- in Angel's conversation with Spike in the hospital?

[> [> [> Re: Am I the only one? (spoiler 5.1? -- Jane, 16:22:53 02/09/04 Mon

I think you saw something there, tam. I also thought that the hospital scene showed Angel in a more sympathetic frame of mind toward Spike. There seemed to be a softness in his expression, along with sadness, that seemed to me to be a reflection of a change of attitude towards Spike. A recognition, perhaps, that he shares much with his grandchild.

[> [> [> No, you weren't the only one- regarding touching (5.11 Damage spoilers) -- s'kat, 16:59:06 02/09/04 Mon

I saw the tenderness there as well, I actually didn't notice Pip's take until Pip pointed it out. I find the idea of juxtaposing both takes rather interesting though.

Spike and Angel and the idea of touching. Prior to getting souls both of these guys were all about touching, often sadistically. Now with souls-you see an odd sense of hesitancy on both their parts. When Spike first reappears on BTVS in Lessons and Beneath You-note how he pulls back from Buffy's desire to touch him or anyone's. Anya's attempts to touch him in a tender or sexual way are rebuked.
Buffy's attempts are similarly rebuked in both Beneath You and Lessons-when she tries to touch his chest and he states: "No touching". Angel similarly seems to pull back from her at first in Season 1 BTVS and in S3 BTVS when he first returns. Later in both Season 3, and in Season 7, they allow Buffy to touch them, but they do not have sex with her-or if they do, we never see it on screen.

Now-going over to ATS-Faith mentions in Orpheus that Angel is jonesing for a hug, but is reluctant to ask for it.
Spike is hugged by Andrew in Damage, but does not hug back, he looks completely uncomfortable actually.

In the final scene, Spike's hands were removed then re-attached, he can't touch right now. In fact he makes a point of mentioning to Angel how he can't touch anything
right now until the drugs wear off. Angel, perhaps in a show of sympathy or equal awkwardness, stuffs his hands in his pockets.

The scene is supposed to be a tender one and it is. I'm not sure Pip is correct in viewing Angel as cold here. He's not.
On the other hand, noticing that Angel isn't touchy feely is interesting-because he did seem to be to others. But those others are women. Also, touching Spike in this scene probably wouldn't have been appropriate or accepted by Spike, who is embarrassed and uncertain how to deal. He's at his most vulnerable, completely naked. Angel, of all people, understands that nakedness the most and hence the stuffing of the hands in the pockets-both as a means of commiseration and possibly of showing sympathy.

The scene can be watched both ways, as Angel distancing himself and as Angel showing compassion-which works for me because Angel like Spike is complicated.

[> [> [> [> Regarding touching (5.11 Damage spoilers) -- Pip, 12:05:23 02/10/04 Tue

Spike's touching in BtVS S7 is certainly very hesitant, but I took his hesitancy with Buffy as a sign that he too was traumatised by the Attempted Rape-which I saw as a 'loss of control' rather than something Spike had planned. If so, that would be why the cuddling in Touched was so important. Spike's now able to choose not to have sex with Buffy, even when he's sharing the same bed.

Anya, again, I saw as a consequence of S6 events. The last time Spike had sex with Anya, Xander was hurt and furious. So with the new soul comes a conscience-and he doesn't want to hurt Xander when there's no need. Especially when Xander's letting him stay at his place.

Spike has hugged in AtS-he positively leapt on Gunn when he re-corporealised. Gunn was a bit surprised, but didn't fling him off [grin].

Going back to the 'hands in pockets' in Damage. It's certainly a deliberate directorial decision (even if it was DB's idea, the director has gone for it quite enthusiastically). The hands are in the pockets from Angel's entrance into the scene (before Spike mentions that he can't move his own hands). They stay in the pockets throughout. The shots of Spike and Angel together are carefully framed to show that Angel's hands are in his pockets. There is also a quite beautifully constructed frame when Spike says: 'Though the tingling in my forearms tells me-she's too far gone to help.' At that point, we get a shot of Spike from the foot of the bed, with Angel just in the side of the frame-and it's framed so you can see that Angel's hands are in his pockets [grin].

I'd agree that Angel is probably making an attempt at tenderness; but it's nearly all verbal. His face and his voice are saying one thing; the rest of his body language is all about refusing contact. As you say, he's a complicated character; I suspect that this scene may be trying to show that Angel is also nearly 'too far gone to help'. He's trying to be tender, he's trying to be honest-and something in him is flatly refusing to do either.

Small point about Angel touching Spike, though, which fits very neatly with the 'cycle of abuse' idea. Angel actually touches Spike quite a lot-provided it's aggressive touching. For example, he hits Spike on the chest earlier in Damage, (just after Spike's fallen out of the window) when he's telling Spike 'You should have waited'.

So he's either refusing to touch Spike non-aggressively, or he simply doesn't know how to touch Spike non-aggressively. Both options are pretty disturbing.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for going into more depth. I Agree with the above. -- s'kat, 19:58:32 02/10/04 Tue

[> [> It is about the kids now. (spoilers for AtS up to 5.11') -- Ann, 12:27:55 02/09/04 Mon

It is about the kids now. Once you are a parent, it is not about you anymore. Therefore, I think that Angel needs to deal with this loss, this choice he made for his family. Spike may be there now, may be his new surrogate child, but it is still about Connor.

"Do you have children?"

S'kat states in her post: "In Prodigal-Kate's father asks Angel a question that appears to be haunting him throughout the series: Do you have children? It's easy to judge me, but wait until you have a son of your own. Until then you have no idea what a father feels."

I agree that this may the question that is the basis for the series now. Angel has had sires and grandsires. Angel has had many "children". Every person he made into a vampire is his child. But then he had Connor, his one real child. He let Connor "die". For all of the children he had, his one true child can't live.

"Do you have children?" This question is the most brutal question a parent who loses a child can be asked. The answer only leads to long explanations that are not easily spoken or easily heard hence reflected in the memory swipe. I wonder what number Angel would give to answer that question. I wonder how Liam's father would have answered that question. I wonder how Holtz, Wes's dad, Connor, Cordelia would have answered that question. Expectations and results. It is repeated over and over about what it means to be a parent and how one should be a parent. Someone on another board stated that they were glad this season, the first according to this poster, did not have yet another pregnancy. I think Pip shows that Spike may be the result of a pregnancy of sorts. His blinding rebirth into Angel's lair.

Pip's post points out (repeat that aloud 10 times really fast) that every character seems to be reiterating this growing up, this relearning, this rebirth of the parent after having a child, what it means to have a child and be a parent: Connor, Jasmine's birth, the fantasy of the "perfect child" with her life, and her death, Spike's rebirth with the amulet, even Lindsey (I'm still working out that one) seems to fit this pattern. What it means to live as child and as parent.

I am thinking that this is the question that Angel needs to deal with. Angel is living his life, this replaying over and over, with the "birth", "life", and "death" of all of the other characters and relationships. He needs to deal with his family, the ultimate irony for someone who has killed so many families in his demon past.

[> [> Concerning daughters, I thought the name unsaid was... (spoilers to AtS 5.11) -- Ixchel, 20:12:49 02/09/04 Mon

Drusilla, she could be Dana's dark (darker?) sister really.

I was almost waiting for Angel or Spike to mention her at the end.

The last scene was perfect even so.

For the record, I saw hesitant tenderness from Angel (MHO).

Interesting thoughts everyone.


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