February 2004 posts
How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- Nino,
12:14:51 02/06/04 Fri
Is it possible that Cordy passed her visions to Angel with that
kiss, just like Doyle did for her? If this is the case, it would
get rid of that ugly idea that Cordy was selfish with her visions
and her actions in "Birthday" and "Tomorrow"
were caused by selfishness and resulted in her being played...Her
giving away her visions before her death would be a nice touch.
[> Re: How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- Irene,
15:27:08 02/06/04 Fri
Wasn't her body near death at the time?
[> [> does this make a difference? -- Nino, 12:44:27
[> Re: How bout that kiss? (spoilers 5x12) -- sarah, 08:12:43
I think the kiss was mainly for C/A Shipppers or fan whatever
you wish to call it for from my reading everything states that
Angel is no longer in touch with the PTB, my guess on this is
for joining W & H. Angel needs to learn from Spike . and Spike
needs to learn from Angel,and I think Damage was about head and
heart working together for the greater good. Spike sees things
other people refuse to see and Angel likes what he sees without
looking for the bad. Remember the prophency said VAWS would be
cut off from everyone and Spike and Angel are in the same boat,
Angel the memory spell, Spike because everyone he knew besides
Andrew thinks that he is dead so both are really alone.
[> Intriguing theory... -- Rob, 09:57:38 02/07/04
I don't know whether that will indeed come to pass, but it would
certainly be a great link to Hero, particularly with the
numerous references to Doyle in this episode.
Another Scenario -- Claudia,
14:53:51 02/06/04 Fri
I can think of another scenario. Because he doesn't remember Connor,
Wesley or the others do not remember his affair with Lilah, Jasmine,
Angel's two or three month period in the ocean, etc.
It would explain why once again, he has become infatuated with
Fred (I noticed that in "Home", he was still in a funk
over Lilah's death) again. And it would also explain his return
to interest in the Shanshu prophecy for Angel . . . and his curiosity
over Spike. All would be a reversal back to his early Season 3
Once he remembers Connor and the effect the latter had on their
lives, it could affect Wes' current relationship with two people
in general . . . Angel and Fred. Positive or negative. I would
suspect the latter.
[> Re: Another Scenario--spoilers aired eps -- TexasGirl,
15:00:51 02/06/04 Fri
It seemed to me that the writers took pains to let us know that
Wes does remember Lilah. In "Lineage" he told his father
that he had to chop his last girlfriend into pieces (actually
just two pieces, heh). And when Cordelia apologized to him for
her role in Lilah's death in "You're Welcome" he seemed
to know what she was talking about.
Although I'm enjoying Season 5, I can't help but wish that Lilah
[> I don't think it needs an explanation -- Finn Mac
Cool, 15:56:58 02/06/04 Fri
First, Wesley's feelings for Fred never really went away, we just
didn't get to see them in late Season 4 since there was so much
else occupying their time. As of "Soulless", at least,
Wes still had feelings for her. Yes, he did mourn Lilah's death,
but haven't you ever heard of a rebound?
As for believing in the Shanshu prophecy, was there ever a moment
where Wesley specifically gave up his faith in it? You may not
believe it's in character for him to still believe in it, but
it's not impossible.
Finally, it should be pretty clear that everyone not remembering
Lilah and Jasmine isn't possible since Wesley has displayed a
memory of dating Lilah.
[> [> Re: I don't think it needs an explanation --
Claudia, 16:04:04 02/06/04 Fri
"First, Wesley's feelings for Fred never really went away,
we just didn't get to see them in late Season 4 since there was
so much else occupying their time. As of "Soulless",
at least, Wes still had feelings for her. Yes, he did mourn Lilah's
death, but haven't you ever heard of a rebound?"
Yes, I have. But are you saying that my suggestion could never
[> [> [> No, but it would be a blunder on ME's part
to do so -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:32:17 02/06/04 Fri
They've already established that the gang remembers events such
as Wesley dating Lilah and Jasmine's birth that occurred because
of Connor. As such, if your suggestion is used, a big continuity
error would result.
[> Re: Another Scenario (spoiler) -- Deacon, 20:33:56
If the storyline had continued from season 2 without conner Wesley
still would have been in charge. He would never have stollen Conner
when he was a baby and lost his position as the leader.
Also there maybe more they might do with this gaping plot hole.
Maybe the gang might start to piece things together and realize
that something is missing, anyways I have confidanse in ME that
they will clear this up.
Completely frivolous question!
Spoilers for "You're Welcome" -- TexasGirl, 15:16:56
The board is so serious these days. So here is a completely frivolous
question: does Lorne seem greener these days? Every time I've
looked at him this season, something about his makeup seems different.
Maybe he's been eating lots of spinach.
Not quite as frivolous: Cordelia sure was perky when asking where
Connor was after she first woke up. Wasn't she even a little bit
embarrassed about seeing the teenager she seduced again? Not to
mention conceived a mass murderer with?
OK, so I know it's Cordelia's last episode (sob) and they didn't
want to spend it dragging the failures of the past up again, but
it still struck an odd note.
[> Re: Completely frivolous question! Spoilers for "You're
Welcome" -- Mighty Mouse, 15:34:30 02/06/04 Fri
Well, it wasn't Cordelia that did those things, but Jasmine in
"possession" of her body. While she did feel guilt about
some things, I doubt she would overtly try to avoid Connor, especially
since she was already dead, and this was her technical "goodbye."
[> [> that makes sense -- Deacon, 19:54:57 02/06/04
[> [> Re: Completely frivolous question! Spoilers for
"You're Welcome" -- Earthscape17, 08:57:54 02/07/04
Perhaps she wasn't hung up on Connor because she wanted to resolve
the sex issue with Connor before it was her time to go. Similar
to the way she dealt with Wesley regarding the Lilah issue.
[> I thought it was just me! -- YesPlease, 09:16:17
Lorne seems _much_ greener these days. Glad I'm not going crazy.
*pointedly ignores serious question* ;)
Why We Fight (NOT About Next
Week's AtS Episode) -- Irene, 15:25:01 02/06/04 Fri
There have been many discussions and debates over Spike's reasons
for joining the fight against evil; and helping others on both
BUFFY and ANGEL. But rarely has this topic been discussed in regard
to other characters.
Below is a list of characters from both shows. What do you think
are their reasons for engaging in fights against vampires, other
demons and other supernatural beings with dark purposes?
[> Can I ask you something? -- dub, 21:18:09 02/06/04
You're also Claudia, aren't you? And you used to be Rina as well?
Why are you using different posting names for different posts?
Just curious. I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind
[> [> Re: Can I ask you something? -- buffyguy, 23:01:56
not to be an ass or anything...but how can u guys be sure its
the same person...and even if it is, who cares, as long as the
posts are cool and everyones having a grand ole time, whats the
big sitch? its not hurting anyone.
[> [> [> True... -- dub, 07:12:58 02/08/04
I, personally, can't be sure. That's why I'm asking Irene to confirm
it. The moderators for this board can make sure by checking the
ISP address. That's the "address" of your computer that's
logged when you post here.
It's not a big "sitch." There's a note asking people
not to use multiple posting names in the FAQ for this board.
Why would someone would do this? Is it to make it look as if other
people are supporting their point of view, even though it's only
them, replying to themselves? If that isn't the reason
for doing it, then I'm really curious about why someone would
do it. Again, that's why I asked Irene.
[> [> [> [> Re: True... -- buffyguy, 11:25:27
LOL...thats pretty funny though...making multiple names to reply
to yourself...but yeah, i think ive gone through about 2 names
before this one, mainly because i cant remember the others becasue
ive only started posting again just now as opposed to like a couple
months ago. But this is an easy one and im sticking with it, and
i hope thats okay with the moderators.
[> [> [> [> [> Motives -- Irene, 09:13:45
There have been many discussions and debates over Spike's motives
for joining the fight against evil-love for Buffy, alturism, etc.
And yet, after checking the site's archives, I haven't found that
many discussions regarding the motives for other characters. So,
I made a list of them and asked if you could post what you feel
are the motives of others (Buffy, Willow, Gunn, etc.) for joining
the fight against evil:
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Motives -- Briar
Rose (excuse typos, new laptop), 10:54:35 02/09/04 Mon
It isn't really that difficult to figure out unless I'm over simplifying...
which I tend to do when I am more interested in the story than
the individual cogs motives. But I would think that some of these
people are simply practicing a form of self preservation more
than any deeper ethical duty.
My break down with added motive would be:
Buffy- sense of destiny and duty. Even when she's wanted to walk
away, she found that the fact that people's lives depended on
her was too much to bear without taking up stakes yet again.
Spike-Spoike was basically a selfserving "champion"
when he entered the fight AGAINST evil whole heartedly. It wasn't
until he was chipped that he decided that not bein able to fight
at all was less preferable than fighting with the good guys. He
could hurt demons, so since he couldn't hurt people, it was a
diversion. I suspect that once he started it, it has become more
about stroking his own ego. Now Buffy adores him, Angel dispises
him and TPTB are paing attention to him. This isn't actually much
different than when he was nursemaiding Dru. Spike needs to be
needed, so this is just a more ego gratifying way to serve.
Xander-To begin with, Xander did it to save his own life. He continued
because he found that it's great to have a place and a mission.
And when that mission in life happens to be saving the world?
Another ego-centric motive. Xander was the first to openly crow
about his "Super hero friend" status.
Willow-I'd put her in with Xander all the way. We saw the outcome
of the super ego from the Slayer activities in season 6.
Giles-First came attonement for hsi own deeds, then came duty.
I doubt that it's ever been all about survival for Giles. Because
with hsi background, he could have avoided any real danger indefinitely.
But he had that Agon thing that he felt he had to atone for so
he followed the family tradition.
Dawn-Not much different than Xander and Willow. We were also shown
that Dawn had a very strong "teen homocidal" streak.
She like inflicting pain because it was rush. So she relished
it a little more than Xander would admit or than Willow would
until "Black Eyed Willow" emerged from her id.
Anya-Survival! I have a feeling that if she hadn't fallen for
Xander, she'd have bee out of Sunnydale faster than Superman can
leap a tall building.
Faith-She shared a lot with Spike, but withoutthe need to serve
others. More a mixture of Dawn's fascination with inflicting pain
and Spike's ego.
Andrew-See Willow and Xander, yet again.
the Potentials-Survival above all else. The mission was only a
means to an end. To hopefully come out alive. And also why Buffy
had such a hard time getting them to follow. they simply wanted
to stay alive and they saw that as doing the opposite of what
she was asking of them.
Oz-That one I'd have to chew on. I definitely would say survival,
because Oz said that. But I also think he took it more as Buffy
did. That it was a duty he'd had given to him. Especially once
he became Wolf Boy, he now had atonement issues, sort of like
Robin Wood-Revenge. Self Preservation. His motives were extremely
simple. Vampires kill. A Vamp killed my Mother. A Vamp will not
kill me. I will kill vamps because one killed my Mother and took
away my sense of safety.
Angel-atonement. even beyond duty and ego, Angel works from the
stance of personal atonement. That's why he's Mr. Broody. Angel
doesn't see it as much as duty to others, he sees it as a duty
to pay pennance for his own evil.
Cordelia-See Willow and Xander, but with more Survival instinct
and less ego.
Doyle-Duty and a sense of righting a wrong. Not the same as atonement,
but about retruning a favor, even if it wasn't granted. He wished
someone would have saved his own Clan. No one did and he's trying
to make sure it doesn't happen again. Besides Buffy, I truly think
Doyle was the least ego driven and had the purist motives for
what he did.
Wesley-Ego. Purely ego and trying to impress his Father.
Lorne-See Spike, but without all the chip issues. lorne is a natural
service oriented type. That's why he's the host. And since he's
gifted with the abilities he has, it's natural to use them where
they are most effective.
Connor-Mix Willow and Xander with Robin Wood and a little Wesley.
It was mainly about survival as he grew up, but there were aspects
of wanting to please Holtz as well as get revenge on dear old
I'm looking forward to reading the other takes on this topic!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Irene,
12:21:55 02/09/04 Mon
Thanks for responding, Briar Rose. Like you, I hope to read further
[> [> [> [> [> [> Blatantly ignore much?
-- Nino, 12:14:31 02/09/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Less Serious Motives
-- Pip, 12:31:46 02/09/04 Mon
My not-entirely-serious take ...
Buffy-'Ooh, shiny weapon!'
Spike-'Let's kill something!'
Xander-[looking at demonic damage] 'Contractory goodness!'
Willow-'I have a shot at being a bad ass Wiccan, and what better
place to learn?'
Giles-'My father gave me a very tiresome speech about, uh, responsibility
Dawn-'I could so save the world if somebody handed me super
Anya-'there's nothing we can't face-except for bunnies'
Faith-'I have a problem with authority figures'.
Andrew-'We save Sunnydale. Then we join her [Buffy's] gang and
possibly hang out at her house.'
the Potentials-'We're dropping like flies here.'
Oz-[To Willow] 'We're here to save you'
Riley-'I worked long and hard to get this pompous.'
Robin Wood-'once you see true evil, it can have some serious after
Angel-'I want forgiveness'
Cordelia-'la, la, la, la, la, new clothes! I have new clothes!'
Doyle-'losing yourself somewhere, hoping it all goes away, I know
that never works.
Wesley-'I didn't get this job because of my looks.'
Gunn-'The last thing I want is my body parts mixed up with yours!'
Fred-[To her parents] 'You rented out my room?'
Lorne-'World ending? Kind of an emergency situation here. You
might want to get on board.'
Connor-'This going to be the yelling thing again?'
[Quotes from Buffyverse DataBase at http://vrya.net/bdb/index.php
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good job digging
up quotes! -- Masq, 13:51:16 02/09/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! What's
really scary is that I mostly knew which episodes they were from
-- Pip, 16:30:52 02/09/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> *chuckles
at quotes as they bring back fond memories* don't worry Pip, so
did I! So did I... -- angel's nibblet, 12:15:05 02/11/04
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> *Snortle* Thanks
for this, Pip. :) -- Ixchel, 20:26:34 02/09/04 Mon
[> Even less serious motives -- Gyrus, 14:54:49 02/09/04
What do you think are their reasons for engaging in fights
against vampires, other demons and other supernatural beings with
Buffy-"Because they're evil. And they smell. You viewers
just can't understand the smell."
Spike-"Mostly the entertainment value. PASSIONS isn't on
all day, you know."
Xander-"Chicks dig scars. Right?"
Willow-"It makes me think about monsters under the bed, which
makes me want to look under the bed, which makes me want to vacuum
under the bed. So it promotes neatness."
Giles-"Can you think of anything else I could be doing that
wouldn't be monstrously dull?"
Dawn-"All the cool kids are doing it."
Anya-"I don't fight anything. I let other people do it. People
who are more qualified, and less attached to their lives."
Faith-"Gets me in the mood, y'know?
Andrew-"Why do I hunt the vamPIRES, you ask? Well, gather
'round and listen, for mine is a tale of-OW! Spike, that hurt!"
the Potentials-"Peer pressure."
Riley-"Tazers, blasters, hand grenades .. did I say blasters
already? 'Cause they're the coolest."
Robin Wood-"I needed some kind of exercise I wouldn't get
bored with. Hopefully, my sword collection won't end up gathering
dust in the garage like my treadmill."
Angel-"Every time I try to quit fighting evil, people keep
bugging me until I start again.
Cordelia-"Demons must be destroyed. For the outfits, if nothing
Doyle-"The fact is, I owe a lot of them money."
Wesley-"In what other profession could I get away with having
this manly facial hair and this nancy accent at the same time?"
Gunn-"'Cause I love watching the cops do double-takes when
they see me coming up the street with an axe and a crossbow."
Fred-"Well, it was this or three more years of grad school,
making $15,000 a year and living on Hamburger Helper. Without
Lorne-"For some reason, demon body fluids don't stick to
Connor-"None of your business."
Kate-"I shoot them, they fall down, they get up again. That
just makes me nuts."
[> [> Serious -- Irene, 15:02:50 02/09/04 Mon
I'm sorry that most of you saw this as an opportunity to make
fun of my post. I had been serious about what you thought about
the characters' motives for fighting evil. I guess Briar Rose
is the only who took it seriously. I won't bother you, again.
I'm sure you will be happy to note my departure.
(Changed my mind)
I've changed my mind. I will continue to post messages on this
forum. Nor will I apologize for my opinions. I'm not trying to
start a debate or anything like that. I'm simply expressing my
views and being honest about them.
[> [> [> Re: Serious -- Gyrus, 07:36:05 02/10/04
There's a difference between making fun of your posts and using
them as an opportunity for humor. I saw your list and a lot of
funny things came to mind.
By way of analogy, comedians make jokes related to the events
of 9/11 all the time, but it doesn't mean that they are making
light of them.
[> [> [> [> A little thing called respect....
-- Nino, 13:26:20 02/10/04 Tue
...someone politely brought up an issue regarding multiple name
usegae and you have not even acknowledged his post...with all
due respect, why should your posts be taken seriously if you are
not going to respond to the accusation.
If you are in fact both Claudia and Irene (I'm not saying you
are, but then, you aren't saying you aren't) there was a similar
issue with you not marking spoilers, which is just common courtesy,
and then being sarcastic when it was pointed out to you...if you
don't respect other posters, why should they respect your posts.
I don't know, I'm not trying to stir up drama, but I just think
you owe Dub a response. You probably won't respond to this either,
so I guess it doesn't really matter.
[> [> LMAO! -- Arethusa, 15:58:27 02/09/04 Mon
[> [> [> Re: LMAO! -- Irene, 16:09:29 02/09/04
What does that stand for? LMAO?
[> [> [> [> It's in the FAQ. -- Arethusa, 16:23:47
It means Laugh My (Posterior) Off. There is more Board Slang in
the FAQ, as well as board rules regarding censorship and posting
names, the spoiler policy, and using html.
[> [> [> [> [> Why Did You Use the Term?
-- Irene, 16:25:22 02/09/04 Mon
Do my posts bother you that much that you have make fun of me?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Click on my post, Irene
-- Arethusa, 16:58:21 02/09/04 Mon
Up towards the top it says, "In reply to Gyrus's message,
Even Less Serious Motives." I used the term because he or
she made me laugh aloud. My post was not in reference to your
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What Is Your Serious
Response? -- Irene, 14:24:07 02/11/04 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Seriously
-- Arethusa, 21:53:56 02/11/04 Wed
Buffy -"This is the work I have to do.:
Spike-",,,To be a kind of man."
Xander-"I'm finished being everybody's butt-monkey! "
Willow- .. that's what I want to do. Fight evil, help people.
I mean, I-I think it's worth doing .. . It's a good fight .. and
I want in."
Giles-"It's a sacred duty"
Dawn-"I just... I just think I could help."
Anya-"When it's something that really matters, they fight.
I mean, they're lame morons for fighting but they do. They never
.. they never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting, too."
Faith-"The road to redemption is a rocky path.." "
.. I dunno. Better at it, I guess."
Andrew"I think I'd like to finish out as one of those lame
humans trying to do what's right."
the Potentials-"I don't want to die."
Oz-"Our lives are different than other peoples'."
Riley-"We're doing good here. Protecting the public. Removing
the subterrestrial threat. It's work worth doing."
Robin Wood-"I wanna kill the monster who took my mother away
Angel-"I always wanted to be a prince."
Cordelia-There's so much pain. We have to help them."
Doyle-"It's not just saving live, it's saving souls. Hey,
possibly your own in the process."
Wesley-:+" .. We're doing a job-one soul at a time."
Gunn-It's about the mission, bro."
Fred-"It's about doing what's right."
Lorne-You think you're the first guy who ever rolled over, saw
what was lying next to him and went 'Guyeah!'"
Connor-"They need to be stopped. "
Kate-"I am a cop. That is all I've ever... "
[> [> Brilliant! -- dub ;o), 18:28:24 02/09/04
[> [> Love these-especially Gunn!! -- Rahael, 18:40:02
[> [> Thanks, everybody! -- Gyrus, 09:16:25 02/10/04
[> [> Lol!! Thanks for these Gyrus! It was much needed.
-- deeva, 09:34:51 02/10/04 Tue
[> [> Heh. -- cjl, 13:27:42 02/10/04 Tue
For some reason, I really like Fred's. We've all been there, right,
[> [> [> List -- Irene, 15:50:00 02/10/04 Tue
Why they fight:
Buffy-She fought because she believed that she has no choice,
due to her being called as the Slayer. Out of a sense of duty
that did not come from the heart.
Spike-He fought to originally win Buffy's heart. Later, he fought
to help her and now, he fights either to piss off Angel or because
he has nothing else to do.
Xander-He fought because of Buffy, and because the idea of being
some kind of superhero that battles the supernatural evil appeals
to his ego.
Giles-Forced to become a Watcher, thanks to his father. Years
of Watcher's mindset has left him with nothing else to do.
Dawn-Fought, because the idea of being some kind of superheroine
battling the supernatural evil appealed to her ego.
Anya-Because Xander fought.
Faith-Because she believed that she has no choice as a Slayer
and she enjoyed the rush and the power.
Andrew-The idea of fighting evil appealed to his ego and also
to atone for his past-including the murder of Jonathan.
the Potentials-Believed they had no choice, due to being future
Slayers and for personal survival.
Oz-Because Willow fought with Buffy and Xander.
Riley-Believed he was doing his duty to fight evil, as an Army
officer and because of his ego.
Robin Wood-Sought revenge against the vampire who killed his mother;
and by joining the fight, he believed that he would eventually
come across said vampire.
Angel-Fought first for Buffy, out of a guilty desire to atone
for his evil past and to achieve a destiny of Shanshu.
Cordelia-Originally needed a job to survive in L.A. and eventually
to support Angel in his fight against evil. And because of her
Doyle-Informed by the PTB that he was to act as liaison between
them and Angel; coerced by Angel to physically join the fight
Wesley-Became a Watcher to live up to his father's expectations
and continued the fight out of gratitude toward Angel and lack
of experience in any other profession.
Gunn-Originally out of a desire to protect his neighborhood against
vampires and other demons. Why he continues the fight, I have
Fred-Out of gratitude toward Angel for saving her life in Pylea.
Lorne-Hooked himself to the Fang Gang.
Connor-Trained and raised by foster father, Daniel Holtz, to kill
vampires and other demons.
[> [> [> Oh lord yes... -- Random, 19:52:11
And Ramen noodles and rice and more bologna. than you can shake
a stick of prosciutto at. Luckily, that helped us save enough
beer money to get buzzed enough that we could forget about the
miseries of our kitchen. Plus, hops and barley accounged for the
grains requirement in our diet.
[> [> [> [> ahh....to be young again....wait, I'm
in college right now...maybe I should be drunk right now --
Nino, 20:47:06 02/10/04 Tue
[> [> *rolling around laughing* -- phoenix, 05:01:36
Does the new army of slayers
even the odds against forces of evil? -- angel, 18:54:46
Even with new slayers called there is still alot of evil out there
and with hundreds or thousands per generation they will be spread
pretty thin. Also there are beings or groups that could possibly
take out a few or more trained slayers with ease. Plus the younger
ones or those too old can be easlier targeted and taken out right
[> You make the new Slayers sound as if they're still Potentials:)
01:12:04 02/07/04 Sat
First of all, hi everyone!...I'm new to the board, though I've
been reading the website forever now.
I don't agree that there are beings or groups that could take
on even a FEW trained, fully "awakened" Slayers, and
especially not with ease. Individual Slayers are going to differ,
of course, but look how powerful Buffy and Faith were, and how
well they could handle themselves in the past...Slayers were made
to combat demons, not the other way around. Even supremely powerful
Big Bads like Glory or the Mayor or even Willow would find it
very difficult indeed to take on a handful of Slayers at once.
No, I don't think the Slayers are in SERIOUS risk, unless there
was a very organized, VERY large scale, VERY powerful and well-run
assault on the Slayer's forces, made by very powerful people with
the means and knowledge to pull it off. The First's army of Turok-Han
would obviously be such a force, and they've been extinguished.
(Though...I imagine Wolfram and Hart could possibly attempt to
pull something like that off too...heh heh. Delicious plot suggestion.)
The Slayers who have yet to be contacted by the Scoobs are more
vulnerable, yes...and probably wondering why they can suddenly
benchpress Ferraris...but that's why the gang is out there now
looking for them, to inform and protect them. Also, we have to
assume that it's not the easiest task in the world to locate Slayers...after
all, if it was, then the forces of darkness would have taken every
opportunity throughout history to extinguish the line, and as
far as we know no one but the First was able to attempt this.
The only people we know who can locate Potentials are the ex-Watcher's
Council(descendants of those who created Slayers in the first
place), Willow's coven(extremely powerful), Willow herself(EXTREMELY
POWERFUL), and the First(self-proclaimed baddest bad). We should
assume therefore that the average awoken Slayer is not in any
more danger than she was before she was Chosen, whether from natural
dangers or supernatural threats...in fact, it's probably safe
to say she's far more capable of defending herself than ever before!
Which brings me to the notion that the statement "There is
a lot of evil out there" is a little questionable. Sure there's
a lot of evil in itself throughout the world, but as far as we
know evil of the mystical nature does not just happen to every
average joe on the street. Remember, Sunnydale was on a Hellmouth,
and LA is one of the busiest and biggest cities in the world.
These situations makes the two supernatural hotspots rarities,
not norms. I think it's safe to assume that these new Slayers
will mostly be operating in cities with large amounts of supernatural
or vampire activity, maybe even four or five to a city at once,
and will therefore not be spread too thin. Obviously, tragedies
will still happen, and one can't avoid casualties in the war,
but the risks are significantly lower than, say, when there was
only one Slayer.
In the past, just ONE Slayer per generation has been enough to
fight [mystical] evil to a standstill. There's no reason to believe
that even a few more Slayers, much less hundreds more, wouldn't
logically tip the scales.
[> [> Re: You make the new Slayers sound as if they're
still Potentials:) -- skpe, 07:56:20 02/07/04 Sat
I think that its more likely that the more serious threat to the
new slayers would not be a direct attack by the forces of evil,
but that they would be co-opted like the AI team. We know ,(from
faith) that slayers can be led astray, that the government has
an active recruitment program for those with mystical abilities,(Marci
the invisible girl) and from the initiative that they know that
slayers exists. So I think it more likely slayers would be "recruited"
as assassins or "hit teams" for various covert agencies
(Buffy Meets La Femm Nakita)
[> [> Agreeing with a lot, but disagree on one part
-- Finn Mac Cool, 09:35:12 02/07/04 Sat
Willow could easily take on a group of Slayers. In Season 5 she
could generate forcefields to hold off a hellgod, and this is
before she absorbed buttloads of magic in "Grave". Add
in the powers of pyrokenisis (turning creatures to ash with a
thought), telekinesis (lifting a giant, stone altar out of the
ground), and a host of other powers we've only seem glimpses of
before, and you've got someone who could probably take out dozens
of Slayers with ease.
In fact, there are several beings in the Buffyverse with the mystical
abilities to totally trump Slayers: D'Hoffryn (perhaps the most
powerful demon in the world, what with raising the dead and controlling
time and all), Amy (she can just teleport them a couple miles
into the air), the White Room Panther (nuclear scale evil), plus
the PTB and Senior Partners. Granted, in a physical fight, few
beings seem to have the ability to defeat a group of Slayers,
but there are a number of mystical beings that are on a totally
different playing field than Slayers could ever hope to be.
The Person Must Be...Drum
Roll please...........(spoilers) -- buffyguy, 22:13:34
after some consideration and a little common sense mixed in for
fun, i have come to the conclusion that the likely person that
angel will call upon for help is GILES! When taking into account
1. the union jack, 2. andrew and his "mentor" giles,
and 3. the fact that angel and spike will be going to england
in a coming episode to do something or other, i can only conclude
it to be Giles. Giles' residence is in england, so it would stand
to reason he has a fairly sizable amount of litereature on demonology
and magicks, seeing that hes a watcher. Taking the Union Jack
as foreshadowing, one would conclude again that the person must
be giles (cause he's english!). And because willows already been
on it cant be her (as much as i want it to be). Buffy: no way,
Xander: no, cause he has no magical expertise, Andrew: already
been on, Faith: been on too much, Wood: no need whatsoever, and
Dawn: well, lets just say big sis wouldnt want little miss "im
the key" frolicking about with her ex and his cohorts at
Hell inc. I dont know about kennedy though. But shes just a slayer...(funny
how now with thousands of em around we can use that phrase) and
shes got no magical skills aside from kicking ass royally. So
the only LOGICAL choice is giles. It will be EXTREMELY interesting
to see his interactions with the MoG, expecially Wesley and Angel.
But i think he'd mostly take a liking to Fred since she is so
damned smart concerning both the physical and metaphysical. Tood
bad she is supposed to be comatose or dead when he gets there.
Anyone agree that its Giles?
[> Future spoilers/speculation in above post! -- Jane,
22:54:45 02/07/04 Sat
[> [> just a clarification -- buffyguy, 22:59:53
do we have to be precise in the heading? i mean, do we have to
say what eppisode we are spoiling or how and what we are spoiling?...just
so i know for future reference.
and i would love feedback on the topic mentioned in the first
post...this stuff is juicy...i love speculating
[> [> [> Re: just a clarification -- Jane, 00:18:31
Like many other people on this board, I prefer to come to an episode
without prior knowledge about it. If a post has spoilers or speculation
about an episode, I really appreciate it if the poster indicates
in the subject that there is spoiler info about the episode. If
you indicate the episode number you are discussing, then I can
avoid the post until I have seen the episode. Hope this helps
clarify it for you.
[> [> [> Another generally accepted move... --
KdS, 02:10:43 02/08/04 Sun
Is to refer to "future spoilers" in the heading if you
are referring to episodes which have not been broadcast anywhere
in the world. Plain "spoilers" is usually used to refer
to posts dealing with episodes that have been recently broadcast
in the USA.
[> [> [> [> Re: Another generally accepted move...
-- buffyguy, 10:03:42 02/08/04 Sun
gotcha...i shall be more diligent in this area...so now to the
content of the spoiler...any takers?
[> [> [> [> [> I'll **SPOILERY SPECULATE** for
ya... -- dub ;o), 16:07:10 02/08/04 Sun
I think you've got about a 50% chance of being right with Giles,
for the reasons you list, and a 50% chance that it's going to
be Willow, because there have been rumors that Alyson will appear
as a guest star this year, but no rumors that ASH will.
Either one of them is powerful enough and knowledgeable enough
to be of great help to Angel & Co. in the upcoming situation.
BUT...if you really want/love to discuss spoilers and want all
the latest ones, you really should go to the Trollop Board (link
above) where it's all spoilers, all the time. That way you can
be sure you won't bum anybody else out by unintentionally telling
them something they don't wanna know.
[> [> [> [> [> [> speculation based on future
casting rumors above ; ) -- Masq, 16:24:23 02/08/04 Sun
Line between 'C' and 'D'
(Spoilers for You're Welcome) -- Athena, 00:07:08 02/08/04
I was looking over some posts on the board and noticed someone
(sorry I don't remember who) saying the Cordelia we saw seemed
like an idealised version of her, giving the example of how she
was a perfect shape despite her month in a coma, and how her behavior
seemed like Cordy at her very best.
Her looks, behavior and efforts to put the Fang Gang back on track
seemed reminds me heavily of the "messenger" Darla towards
Connor in "Inside Out". Both women are the most-likely
to influence those they appear to, Cordelia because is one of
the most trusted members of the gang, Darla because not only because
she is Connor's mother, but because he has been convinced that
no one except Jasminized-Cordy loves him. Cordelia and Darla as
look fantastic and seem to be behaving in amazing balance of bluntness
There are only a few differences:
1. Cordelia is listened to, while Darla is completely rejected.
2. Cordelia touches things, while Darla doesn't.
Number 1 can simply be explained by the fact that nothing is certain.
Number 2 I believe can be explained that nothing I saw Cordelia
physically do wasn't something, someone else would've succeeded
in doing. Under these credentials, Darla couldn't interfere with
the murder of that poor girl in "Inside Out". On top
of that, Connor knew she was dead, he's a lot less likely to believe
she is magically alive again instead of being a ghost.
Whether they're really Darla and Cordelia is uncertain, but both
appear as something similar to divine messengers. They appear
as ideal individuals by what are definitely not normal means,
and both serve as more inspiration than muscle.
a few questions (spoilers
late season 3 and season 4) -- buffyguy, 11:49:09 02/08/04
I have four questions regarding the events that surround jasmine.
1. how can we really be sure that jasmine was actually a power-that-is
(or -was as the case may be)? We only have her word and skip's,
right? and since when do we take the word of a demon and a seemingly
ultra-powerful-semi-quasi-goddess-type person as fact? How do
we know she wasnt just a very powerful demon with dreams of world
domination and skip was her lacky. well skip was her lacky regardless
but thats beside the point. The point is we have never seen a
Power and dont know what they look like.
Other question; was cordy possessed from her return to the earthly
plane onward or was it after she conceived jasmine and she took
her body over? i always get that mixed up. I guess, she must have
been from the time she came back casue sane cordy would have never
done the nasty with her best friends kid.
nest question: was cordy with the powers in that higher dimension
of hers or was she all by her lonesome? i mean, did joss or anyone
give us any info as to the nature of the higher dimension she
last question, i swear! are the powers-that-be like the "Ultimate
God" figure in the Jossverse? i mean, we've seen beings of
good in such entities as whistler, the oracles (one step up i
would assume), and then the powers-that-be. So are they the Ultimate
Force of Good in the Jossverse or what; has he said anything about
the nature of them and if there are any being higher up in the
"food chain" so to speak? I guess, would that make the
First the Satan of the Jossverse, since it is the first evil and
presumably in the western world Satan is regarded as the first
evil? Sorry about the long post, im just very currious about the
metaphysics part of it.
[> Re: a few questions (spoilers late season 3 and season
4) -- Mighty Mouse, 12:48:51 02/08/04 Sun
Answer #1-Joss 'n co. usually don't simply thrust the information
in our direction, but since lying about whether or not Jasmine
was a "Power that Be (Was)" wouldn't really serve any
purpose (As they said she was a Rogue Power, it doesn't mean that
Angel 'n co. would lose any faith in the Powers that Be ... not
that they really had any in the first place), and as Joss 'n co.
probably won't elaborate on the subject, we'll just have to go
with the general belief that she was an actual Power that Was.
Answer #2-The entity "hitch-hiked" with Cordelia back
to the Earthly plane, however, she did not take control of her
until Cordelia's memories were put into place. She was "dormant"
within her until that point.
Answer #3-Joss is usually deliberately non-revealing about this
sort of stuff. All we saw was "St. Cordy glowing" with
her funny commentary for a few episodes in some glowing realm.
Answer #4-Joss usually stays away from "Who is God"
and "Who is the Devil" etc. The Powers that Be essentially
seem to be beings whose interests lie in seeing humanity not get
overrun by Demons. Jasmine suggested that the Powers that Be & Demons
in general all used to be united as "one force." Then
a portion of that force turned dark, evil, and the Powers That
Be essentially fled (I'm not sure if that force was Demons originally
... or the First Evil which may or may not have laid the path
for Demons to rise). The First Evil's origins are sort of confusing.
It was said to have been here before everything else was, but
at the same time it says it exists as a manifestation of the evil
in all humanity. My theory is that the First Evil did exist before
everything, but it has just drawn its power from "the evil
of humanity," acting as a balance for the good out there.
[> Re: a few questions (spoilers late season 3 and season
4) -- luvthistle1,
04:35:38 02/09/04 Mon
I will try and answer them.
I. we can not be sure that Jasmine was an ptb, beside the fact
that she was killing evil and got rid of W&H. but she also
worked with Evil. why did they trust skip the first time he made
Cordy half demon? after all, Angel did had to fight him in hell.
the fact that he was in hell in the first place, should have been
The only person that seem to confirm Jasmine being a ptb, besides
Skip was Lilah.
Question 2: Cordy was possessed since season 4 "The House
Always Wins" when she return at the end of the episode. Jamine
was alseep inside of her, until she awaken in "spin the bottle"
. ( the end of spin the bottle, when Lorne gave her her memories
So from "spin the bottle" on that was Jasmine. Cordy
would not have done the nasty with Connor, she had already stated
( In STB) that he wasn't her type.
Question#3: Well that's a tough question. Skip implied In "inside
out " that Cordy was never ment to be an "high
being" ( if you think about Cordy had did no more than Buffy,
or angel and neither of them was promoted to "higher- being
status, so why would Cordy make it there so fast, when she was
finish with her redemption. she was really nasty to people most
of her life, until going on angel and only than did she try and
mend her ways)
So , I will say that Cordy never made it up there with the real
Question# 4: The PTB are suppose to be the Ultimate God. the good
guys ( figurely) . the ptb is what people refer to when something
"Good " happen, but they do not know why , or how. but
according to Buffy, in "i remember you", they could
be an couple of prankers.
The board is what we make
it -- Masquerade, 13:39:48 02/08/04 Sun
Gather around and attend to a most unusual tale... a tale about
a group of erudite, funny and intelligent people who liked to
post and chat about two television shows, Angel the Series and
Buffy, The Slayer of the Vam-pyres.
Eons ago, in the City by the Bay, a marginally wise, non-dead
philosopher decided to heed the urgings of her much wiser internet
compatriots and add a discussion board to her year-and-a-half-old
website, All Things Philosophical.
On a hot summer's day in June of 2000, she linked her site to
a free internet threaded board hosted by InsideTheWeb.
Thusly, the first home of the ATPo board was born.
That's, um...really great, but we...actually know all that.
You think you know, my good man. You think you know.
Ahem. Not knowing what to do with a discussion board or how to
run one, our marginally wise philosopher went back to analyzing
BtVS and Angel episodes and let the newly-made board fend for
Then time went by, and a most extraordinary thing happened. Wise,
eloquent fans of the shows who prided themselves on thinking way
too much started to wander into this discussion board, and filled
its meandering threads with insightful thoughts on characters,
literary subtext, metaphor, art and film critiques, political
analyses, post-modern visions, and yes, even philosophy.
That's the ATPo board we know and love!
Yes, attractive slender woman. And it was a wonderful place to
be. The posters there were friendly and polite, responding to
each other with thoughtful reasoned arguments, compliments and
constructive criticism, and shared laughter. Not everyone was
a master essayist, but everyone was welcome who wanted to join
in on the spirit of things, even if it was just to talk about
chocolate, cats, Canadians, or to drool over characters in posts
labeled deceptively as "Angel reading Sartre".
The ATPo board's reputation grew and still more people came. They
started to talk about their non-fandom lives. They started forming
friendships, romances. They clamored to have a place where they
could find out about each other, and post their essays and
fic permanently. A beneficent goddess who graced the board with
her presence, Liquidram, started a site known as Existential
Scoobies, which was the name all these learned people had
Liquidram created a
chat room for people to discuss the shows and get to know
each other. She offered up her own server space for archives so
that people could read what had been written before.
Meanwhile, our marginally wise philosopher was sitting back in
stupefied amazement. Her contribution to "The Board"
as it had come to be known was to make archives, drag back threads
from the mouth of the Voynak demon, and format poster profiles.
The wonderfulness that was the board belonged not to her, but
to each and every poster who started a thread, who responded to
someone else's thread, and who enjoyed the company of their fellow
The ATPo board had its share of setbacks.
* Many trolls stomped through, inciting to riot (and we could
tell you stories!). But the typical response of the Existential
Scoobies was to change the subject of the inflammatory thread
and continue to enjoy each other's conversation.
* Posters who were a bit "challenging" and confrontational
joined the board, and we were not always patient with them. But
we all learned to get along or they chose on their own to go elsewhere.
* When the board was moved over to
Voy, we discovered we had put ourselves into the clutches
of a hungry demon who devoured young, helpless threads whole.
Fighting the Voynak demon became a common occurrence.
* Then the show Buffy, Slayer of the Vam-pyres ended after seven
years and many posters despaired and left us. But new posters
came to take their place, to talk about Angel the Series and to
analyze BtVS in its glorious completeness.
The board survived all this, and thrived.
But alas, the existence of all internet discussion boards is a
tenuous thing. The nature of the medium almost guarantees that
this will be so. Some of us have met each other in the flesh,
and know each other pretty well. Most of us have not. Either way,
the textual, faceless nature of the internet lends itself to misunderstandings,
to lowered inhibitions, to expressions of emotion we might hesitate
to show in real life.
Even the marginally wise philosopher has been guilty of taking
snipes at other posters when her hot button has been inadvertently
But the wise long-time posters of the board had foreseen this
inevitability and put their heads together to devise a
FAQ with some ground rules and suggestions to keep the experience
of posting on the board a pleasant one.
Because we don't agree about everything that goes on in the shows
we love. We want to defend the things we do like. We want to feel
free to critique the things we don't like. And we want to have
a place where we feel safe doing both. We know people will disagree
with us, but that's how we learn to appreciate things in the show
we never saw before. And sometimes we feel firm in our positions,
our feelings, or opinions. And that's when we graciously agree
Sadly, it doesn't always work this way. There are always anomalies
that no one could have foreseen--unexpected and controversial
events on the shows, personality mismatches between posters, or
bad days in our off-lines lives--all sorts of things can lend
themselves to an atmosphere where posters don't feel comfortable
or safe anymore.
"Anomalies" are usually just that--passing events that
effect one or a few posters and go away. But when they start to
add up, it creates a noticeable unpleasantness on the board that
everyone can feel.
My hypothesis exactly, Pryce. And there's only one solution for
a board such as this. This board became the place it is because
of the posters who visit it. People who want to discuss Angel
the Series, and Buffy, the Slayer of the Vam-pyres together in
a friendly, sometimes deep, and civilized way. The posters made
this place special, they set the mood. The board is whatever we
It's a choice. A choice each of us makes everyday when we come
to the board.
[> Re: The board is what we make it -- Cheryl, 13:56:18
Andrew, uh, I mean Masq. Although I don't post
often, and never as eloquently as many here, a day doesn't go
by that I don't check in and read the posts. It's made my viewing
of Angel and Buffy much more enjoyable and enlightening.
So my thanks to Masq and everyone else here who contributes to
the lively and entertaining discussions.
[> [> I guess I sort of walked into the one! ; )
-- Masq, 14:21:51 02/08/04 Sun
Now everyone is going to be calling me "Andrew" instead
of "The First Evil".
Oy, the irony of it all!
[> [> [> Re: I guess I sort of walked into the one!
; ) -- VR, 18:16:40 02/08/04 Sun
But, the First Evil IS Andrew. "The FE's" talks with
"Andrew" were just his bouts of schizophrenia.
Why do you think Andrew didn't die?
The First Evil is still crazy.
[> Bravo and Brava to all of the "cast members"!
Beautifully stated, Narrator-Lady! ;o) -- The Cheerleadery
One, 13:57:20 02/08/04 Sun
[> [> In the chorus of guys backing up Rob with more
pom-poms... -- Cactus Watcher, 14:37:18 02/08/04 Sun
[> [> [> Now there's a visual... -- Masq, 16:14:16
[> Re: The board is what we make it -- Ann, 14:09:33
"We have great freedom and that's a blessing. What must happen
is that some mythological instruction should be added to our freedom,
so that the individual can find his own myth, his individual meaning
in that freedom."
~ from The Way of Myth-J. Campbell
For me, this is what happens, and I what receive at this board.
Masq gives us this and we learn and share.
Thank you all.
[> :-) Wise Words -- Nino, 14:40:28 02/08/04 Sun
[> [> A standing ovation for Masq.(AKA Andrew the wise
:D) -- Jane, 15:45:34 02/08/04 Sun
[> *furious applause* we all bow down before your board
mistress-ness :-D -- angel's nibblet, 15:30:45 02/08/04
[> A far more than marginally wise philospher -- Sara,
happily sitting at Masq's knee, 16:25:58 02/08/04 Sun
has told us an awfully good story. That was just lovely Masq!
[> thanks alot for that :) -- Giles & Nick, 20:02:16
nick and I, being young-uns and newer citizens of this great board,
thanks you for not only teacing us a bit of history about the
board, but doing it your way and doing ti fantastical.
[> [> Masq, you are the best! so well stated. --
Briar Rose, 11:03:34 02/09/04 Mon
[> Re: The board is what we make it -- phoenix, 10:26:07
*sigh* That was great.
Although I don't post here often, I have been lurking, and enjoying
the many and varied discussions on this board, for over a year.
It provides a wonderful meeting ground for people, and I've come
to love it. I check in most days to see what's happening, to gather
more food for thought, or sometimes just to have a damn good laugh
-- the 'bloody stupid hair' thread comes to mind (-:
I just wanted to say thanks to Masq for starting it, and to all
the posters who make it what it is. Even though I don't know any
of you, you have, at times, enriched my life. Long may it continue.
[> preserving -- Masq, 09:32:41 02/10/04 Tue
A name unsaid: Family relationships
in Damage (spoilers for AtS S5 including 'You're Welcome')
-- Pip, 17:23:07 02/08/04 Sun
There are two major 'family' relationships in Damage. One
is between Spike and Angel. The other is between Spike and Andrew.
I've already discussed in Growing Up and Parenting Skills (which
has now wandered off to the Archives) that I think Angel and Spike
are being set up as a parent-child relationship where one side
is visibly more distant than the other. Angel sees Spike as a
grandchild he'd rather not have, Spike sees Angel as the only
father-figure he's got.
Andrew arrives on the scene in Damage with a hairstyle
that's very, very similar to young William's in Destiny.
In case we haven't got that hint to remind us that Andrew is probably
very like the young Spike (or maybe never watched BtVS Season
7), in the dockside scene Andrew proceeds to call Spike 'bro'
and 'brother'. And to finally add the cherry on top of the sundae,
Andrew yammers incessantly to Spike, just as Angel had complained
of the young Spike doing to him (Just Rewards).
In other words, Spike and Andrew are acting as big brother/little
brother. And their colouring isn't very different at all [grin].
This is, incidentally, a role they're both used to. Andrew suffered
the in-joke of being 'Tucker's brother' throughout BtVS Seasons
6 and 7. Basically, he was identified as 'the little brother'.
Spike acted as a 'big brother' to Dawn throughout much of Seasons
5 and 6 (and for all we know, may have implanted Season 4 memories
as well). It's well within the previous characterisations for
Spike and Andrew to follow that pattern; they both know the appropriate
This arrival of a little brother for Spike [as well as being yet
another 'growing up' metaphor] brings up the ghost of someone
whose name is never mentioned once throughout Damage. Connor.
Angel's son, younger than Spike. The mind boggles at trying to
describe what relationship Connor and Spike actually have (lemme
see, my father is your Grandsire and my mother was your Great-Grandsire,
so that makes us .. ), but they'd probably develop an emotional
older brother/younger brother relationship. Especially since they
could bond over their shared opinion that Angel is a selfish,
self-righteous bastard. :-)
At least, they might have developed such a relationship given
the chance. But Angel has handed Connor over to the care of others,
and wiped any memory of him from AI. Spike probably never even
knew of Connor's existence. There's only Andrew, for one night
only-Andrew who, like Connor, made a trip over to the dark side
but who managed to come back. Andrew, whose second line in Damage
starts 'My therapist said .. '[And let us just pause to salute
Andrew-for being one of the very few people in the Buffyverse
who has actually admitted he needs a therapist :-)] Andrew, who
is almost certainly meant to suggest the possibility that Connor
might one day have recovered from his traumas. Andrew, the little
brother. Replacing Connor.
It's worthwhile comparing the way Angel treats Spike with the
way Spike treats Andrew. The first point of comparison is that
while Spike is clearly deeply, deeply embarrassed by Andrew hugging
him, he lets him do it (even though he won't hug Andrew back).
Angel, in a similar situation in Destiny, wouldn't allow
Spike to even touch him (he actually says 'Stop touching me.').
This follows on in the last scene of Damage, where for
all Angel's verbal honesty he is still flatly refusing to touch
Spike. Spike still can't reach out-this time because of the damage
to his hands. Angel, whose hands are undamaged, has stuck them
deep into his pockets.
The second point of comparison is that while both Angel and Spike
think their 'junior' is a bit of an idiot, Angel is not only unsupportive,
but shares his low opinion with both colleagues and total strangers.
In the scene in the mental hospital, Angel manages to find five
different ways of saying 'I don't want you here' in his first
five lines -which is quite a feat [grin]. He then tells Spike
'you're not helping' in front of Dr. Rabinaw (which is the point
that Spike decides to leave abruptly). And when Spike is gone,
Angel calls him a 'pathological idiot'. Interestingly, the second
time that Spike rushes off to find Dana is also when Angel publicly
insults him-by calling him a murderer and suggesting that Spike's
soul has made no difference to him (in front of Andrew and the
entire AI team).
Spike, on the other hand, does not run down Andrew in front of
the AI team, not even when Andrew is making a complete idiot of
himself. It's worth noting that Spike knows the story of the Slayers
at least as well as Andrew; but he lets 'the top man have a go'.
His one comment comes after Andrew has choked on his pipe, and
it doesn't comment on Andrew's lousy performance. It is simply
a statement: 'Little Sunnydale surprise', which gets Andrew back
on track without it being obvious that this is what Spike
The sarcasm, the 'what are you doing out here', they're all saved
for the moments when Spike and Andrew are alone with each other.
And once Andrew has made it clear that he will tag along,
like it or not, Spike lets him without any more comment. Again,
this is unlike Angel, whose suggestions to Spike include 'you're
not handling anything', 'you think this is a joke', 'you will,
when she's staking you in the heart'.
It's already been suggested on this board that Damage is
about the cycle of abusive relationships. One of the things that
struck me about Spike's 'growing up' metaphors in AtS Season 5
is their sheer normality. The baby turned smoothly into the toddler,
the toddler started to be able to help the adults. The teenager
didn't kill his 'father', or get thrown out of the house. Andrew's
'little brother' gets Spike's affection and support. The disastrous
events with Dana provoke mature reflection rather than 'it wasn't
my fault'. The implication is that Spike is growing up right this
And that was something else that Andrew's arrival threw into sharp
relief. The problems Spike has been having connecting with Angel
and some of AI are problems that starts at the LA group's end.
Andrew showed very clearly that he loved Spike, and was delighted
at his survival. The audience also saw that this season's over-abrasive
Spike personality is partly a response to Angel-look how much
he reverts to 'S7 Sunnydale Spike' with Andrew.
That was the keynote contrast for the two relationships. The Angel-Spike
relationship shows as abusive. The Spike-Andrew relationship shows
as normal and healthy (if Spike could hug back, it'd be even healthier).
Spike can't bear to touch Andrew-because it's in front of Angel.
Then Angel verbally abuses him-and Spike rushes off to a situation
where he physically loses any ability to touch. Spike's arms can
be repaired (in the same way that Spike is 'repairing' himself?),
but Angel, theoretically whole, is the one then refusing to touch.
There's another point. It's easy to think that Spike's major injuries
are entirely his fault. He did rush in without thinking. [All
together now: he rushed in where Angel feared to tread]. He was
over confident. It's another 'young adult'/growing up metaphor;
youthful impetuosity leads to hospitalisation. He didn't recognise
how serious the situation was, and he got in over his head.
But the other side to this coin is that Angel, the guy whose life
Spike saved last week (which we're deliberately reminded of in
the mental hospital), Spike's grandsire, gives Spike no back-up
whatsoever. None. The structure of Angel's discovery of Dana's
Slayer nature is timed in the script for before Spike finds Dana.
Angel makes a phone call about his discovery to Wesley, sitting
safely in his office. There's no contact with Spike, about to
get thrown out of a top floor window.
Angel also doesn't admit that Spike can be of any help. There's
a long meeting at Wolfram and Hart, there's a psychic visit to
Dana's old house, there's Lorne desperately wanting a drink, all
because no one knows where Dana is. Meanwhile, Angel isn't talking
to Spike, who has already shown that he can locate Dana (and who
by the looks of it, wins the Vampire Awards 'tracker of the year'
on a regular basis). He's helpfully suggested that Dana is capable
of killing Spike, and then left Spike to get on with it. No suggestion
of any team in support. Not even an offer of 'call me if you find
her, I'll send a team with trank guns.'
Compare this with Spike and Andrew. Andrew follows Spike without
permission, but Spike won't let Andrew wander around by himself
and allows him to tag along. Andrew tries to support Spike in
the initial fight with Dana, and when Dana captures Spike it is
Andrew, acting as back up, who tells Wolfram and Hart that Spike
is in big trouble. Spike allowed Andrew to help, even though he
probably didn't think Andrew would be much use. Andrew ended up
saving Spike's life, simply by being available to go for help.
In the one case we have the Angel Investigations disconnect, in
the other the old Sunnydale teamwork. And the theme continues
that needing Angel more than he needs you is a really bad position
to be in. Angel doesn't like Spike. Angel doesn't want Spike.
It's Spike who, throughout this episode, shares the information
and theories he's got with Angel. It's Spike who shows how much
he wants Angel's respect, both by having to leave the room when
Angel runs him down in front of others, and by trying to show
that he can do Angel's old job just as well, if not better.
It's very likely that Angel needs to rescue Dana. Angel
probably sees a lot of Connor in Dana, a Connor as he could have
been without the W&H deal-traumatised by the childhood abuse,
on the violent ward without much hope of recovery. Dana's even
someone who hunts down vampires. She's a substitute. He couldn't
rescue Connor, but he can still rescue her. And Dana makes no
emotional demands of Angel whatsoever-she doesn't even know he
It's a reprise of Unleashed. Angel is concentrating all
the resources on the girl turned into a monster through no fault
of her own. Spike gets told to stop bothering him. In both episodes
Spike ends up getting the resources he needs through an intermediary.
In Unleashed it's Fred, using W&H's science resources,
and getting Angel's grudging permission to go over budget (in
Hellbound). In Damage it's Andrew, rushing back
to W&H offices to use their tactical resources to save Spike.
Is Angel in the cellar to rescue Spike, or to rescue Dana? His
first line is to Dana, telling her that he's here to help her.
His tactical team concentrates entirely on Dana. The medical team
is only called after Dana has been taken care of. And throughout
that entire scene in the cellar, Angel addresses not one word
to Spike (who is conscious). He also prioritises Dana in the next
scene. Angel is by Dana's gurney; it's Fred who gets into the
ambulance with Spike. Yet again, Angel hands over the care of
his 'child' to someone else. Was that the right decision?
Let's look at this scene. By now we have three reflections of
Connor in this episode. There's Spike, almost but not quite a
son. He's being handed over to the care of Wolfram and Hart medical
team to recover, in the same way Connor was handed over to the
care of a Wolfram and Hart provided foster family. There's Dana,
mentally ill and possibly beyond recovery. Angel is planning to
take her into his care. And there's Andrew, making a healthy recovery
from his traumas and no longer needing to be looked after by anyone.
It's this healthy, recovered, almost grown up reflection of Connor
who tells Angel that he is no longer trusted to take care of Dana.
So little trusted, in fact, that Andrew's willing to fight for
the care of Dana. And even Angel pauses when he says 'I'm not
turning her over'. Pauses, and qualifies it with 'to you.'
And then, of course, Andrew delivers the final body blow. Nobody
trusts Angel. Not even Buffy. Is Andrew telling the truth? Well,
if he isn't, he should be, because this is Angel's low point,
the point where he has shown himself to be comprehensively unworthy
of any trust at all. His closest friends have had their memories
altered. His son has been given away to strangers. His vampiric
grandchild has just been badly injured (partly because Angel failed
to give him any support), but would be alone in the ambulance
if it weren't for Fred. Whilst Angel takes care of a stranger.
Everyone who has any emotional tie to Angel has now been abandoned,
abused or betrayed by him. Even Buffy had her memory wiped in
I Will Remember You.
It's worth noting the way the scene is structured. The ambulance
with Spike leaves before the confrontation with Andrew. If Angel
had decided, for once (by going with Spike in the ambulance),
to care for someone whose emotional need of Angel was greater
than his need of them, he would never have been told that he isn't
trusted to care properly for Dana. He would never have been told
of Buffy's lack of trust. Angel is told this because he has just
shown, again, that he is unworthy of her (or anyone's) trust.
He has just shown that he is incapable of proper care. And he
is told all this by Spike's 'little brother', a boy who is standing
in the role that Connor should have been filling.
The image that stays most in my mind from the final scene in the
hospital is not Spike and Angel's moment of self-honesty. It's
Angel, standing in the dark, with his hands kept firmly in his
pockets. Refusing to reach out. Giving Spike a gift by sharing
his self-honesty, but even in that moment telling one tiny self-serving
lie. He tells Spike that Andrew didn't trust 'us' to help Dana.
He should have used the word 'me'.
And it occurs to me that helping Angel out of this pit of self-isolation,
helping him to stop lying to himself even when he thinks he is
being most honest, will require a miracle.
[> Re: A name unsaid: Family relationships in Damage (spoilers
for AtS S5 including 'You're Welcome') -- Corwin of Amber,
20:40:42 02/08/04 Sun
The problem is-can you really picture either Angel or Spike TOUCHING
at this time?
30 INT. HOSPITAL ROOM-NIGHT
His arms bandaged but now reattached, Spike's sitting in a hospital
bed, wearing a white hospital gown. Angel walks up to the doorway.
Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the
finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the
drugs wear off.
A lot of pain?
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I
Uh...right. What's got your kitty in a blender?
(rushes forward and embraces Spike, still sobbing)
Hey! Hey! Stop that! HELP! NURSE! He's trying to kill me!
(tries to hit the buzzer, finds it difficult with his numbed hands)
WESLEY, GUNN and FRED walk in.
Angel's trying to kill Spike! Wesley, do something!
(babbles incoherently, apparently having a flashback to his own
assault by Angel last year)
Charles! Do something!
Angel, calm down! You'll be looking at an assault charge at least!
Or maybe even murder! Think about what you're doing...
Oh, you two are useless! No wonder I'm boinking Knox!
(Grabs a vase from nightstand by the bed and breaks it over Angel's
head, knocking him out cold.)
(thanks to www.buffy-vs-angel.com for their wonderful transcripts)
[> [> No, not a sob and hug fest :-) -- Pip, 05:09:07
The problem is-can you really picture either Angel or Spike
TOUCHING at this time?
As in your very funny sob and hug fest? No way!
But Angel giving Spike one very brief touch on the shoulder? Or
Angel tentatively reaching out to Spike and then deciding not
to touch him?
Either of those actions would have completely changed the scene
dynamics. Though I do rather like the idea of a shocked Fred knocking
Angel out with the vase [grin].
[> [> [> Re: No, not a sob and hug fest :-) --
Corwin of Amber, 07:29:00 02/09/04 Mon
Thanks, I should probably apologize for hijacking your thread
though. But that scene just popped into my head and had to come
I know what you meant...but the space that Angel is in right now,
he won't be reaching out to anybody for a while. Especially not
Spike. It's big for him just to visit him in the hospital.
[> Interesting post-fathers, sons, and daughters (spoilers
for AtS up to 5.11') -- s'kat, 06:28:11 02/09/04 Mon
I've been quietly reading your "Spike as the metaphor for
growing up" posts for a while now and this one may have nailed
it for me.
I think you are right: we are dealing with the cycle of parental
abuse metaphor, and this being Angel's show-he's at the center
of it. How does someone who felt rejected by his father and never
felt he could live up to his father's approval, possibly even
hated his father, deal with a son or a daughter?
In Prodigal-Kate's father asks Angel a question that appears to
be haunting him throughout the series: Do you have children? It's
easy to judge me, but wait until you have a son of your own. Until
then you have no idea what a father feels. The end of Prodigal
is haunting as well: We see Kate's father's grave-which echoes
Liam's (Angel) father standing over his grave towards the beginning
of the episode...only to have the newly resurrected Angel show
up at his doorstep to kill him. Isn't it interesting-that Angel
watches Kate's father die in the same manner he killed his father?
By a vampire's bite.
In case we've forgotten the imagery-it's repeated in Season 3-with
Holtz. Where we watch Angel kill Holtz's family and specifically
his children, turning one, the daughter into a vampire. Interesting
that Angelus seems to go for daughters-trying to turn "daughters"
against their fathers. I always wondered why ME chose a girl for
that scene instead of a boy, the boy would have been a better
parallel to Connor or so I would have thought. But they choose
a girl instead. Maybe because the girl fits the imagery of Dru,
Buffy,-the idea of taking over as father figure to the girl-which
goes all the way back, once again to Prodigal-where the first
person Angel kills is the little girl, his sister, who is also
the person who gives Liam his new name-Angel-Angelus. Angel by
biting his sister and killing her-takes his father's place in
the family. An act he repeats again and again-with Buffy in Passion,
where he tortures Buffy by torturing Giles, then in Becoming,
taking the old man again. Or in Whats My Line, where he takes
her father's place, Hank who used to take her ice skating, at
the skating rink. With Faith-who seems to have two fathers-the
evil Mayor who pulls her to the dark side, and Angel who pulls
her out of the abyss towards redemption. With Drusilla, whom he
does the opposite with-creating a mad demonic child, a vampire
who will always call him Daddy. And with Holtz's daughter-whom
he turns into a vampire which Holtz is forced to destroy.
As vengeance, Holtz takes Angel's son and turns the boy, torturing
him, so that boy ends up for Angel much like Holtz's daughter
was to Holtz, a child who could not be reclaimed. So we turn to
the son metaphors in the series-shown first with Penn in the Sonmabulist-who
is trained by Angelus, to become a weak copy of his father, doing
the same crimes over and over-killing Dad and the rest of his
family. Then with Holtz-a harsh representative of Liam's own father?
Perhaps? Then with Connor-the rebellious boy, so like his father,
yet so different. The boy who is both afraid of becoming his father
and desires it, to the extent he sleeps with and falls for his
father's love interest and surrogate mother. Giving birth to-ironically
enough, a demi-god of a daughter, who devours those who worship
her-an interesting, perhaps unintentional commentary on Angel/Angelus
own twisted relationships with his surrogate daughters? Jasmine
after all does the same thing with her sons that Angel does with
his daughters-eats them and loves them. Dru-he bites and turns.
(Dear Boy, Becoming I) His sister. (The Prodigal) Faith he bites
and is pulled into hell. (Release to Orpheus) Buffy-he bites and
almost kills after she pushes him into it (Graduation Day I).
Ironically, Angel's biting of each of these women reminds me of
the scenes of Jasmine devouring her worshippers-a voluntary act
of eating and love. And it is Connor who ends up killing Jasmine,
the father killing the daughter once again. An act that seems
to drive Connor over the edge, until Angel is forced to wipe him
clean in order to reclaim Conner's life, but is Angel reclaiming
a life or merely substituting one, altering reality in order to
do it? Is that perhaps his biggest mistake? And is it one that
could very well create a hole in Angel's universe dooming his
Then we have Spike, the forgotten son. The reminder of what he
was. The reminder of his failures. His sins. His guilt. With Spike
present, Angel can no longer deny Angelus lurks inside, Spike
always reminds him otherwise. Just as Connor did-constantly telling
Angel that Angelus was there too. A part of him. Everyone else
told Angel-Angelus isn't you, except his two sons, the vampire
grandson and the human/demon boy. I wonder sometimes if one of
the problems parents have with children-is their inability to
separate their identities from their child's. (How many people
have you heard describe having a children as a means of "carrying
on their legacy, carrying on their family name" or making
them immortal by carrying on a part of them?) Sometimes parents
see too much of themselves reflected within the child's face and
demeanor-they see their own reflections, instead of seeing who
the child is, separate from them. Instead of wanting the child
to fulfill it's own destiny, sometimes the parent sees his child
as a second chance of fulfilling his. How much of myself is in
my child? Perhaps this is my chance to live a different life than
the one I got?
That was certainly the case with Angel and Connor-expressed in
Lullaby through Sleep Tight-Angel saw Connor as his/Angel's
second chance at life. A type of shanshue. Connor comments
on this in Peace-Out in his speech to Cordy, about how his father
wants him to follow in his footsteps and Connor doesn't really
want that. Does Angel realize this in Home-is this the
reason he makes that deal? To give Connor that chance to have
a life separate from his? And is he also attempting that with
Spike? Is he struggling with the same issues regarding Spike?
Could that be part of his problem with Spike following in his
footsteps, not the fear Spike will take his place and sub-plant
him so much as the fear that Spike is merely another reflection
of him? Not sure about that one. At any rate Angel's attitude
towards Spike seems to be the opposite of his attitude towards
Connor-whom he wanted to be a "champion" or to take
his place, with Spike, he wishes Spike would just go away. Perhaps
the reminder of Connor is just too brutal?
Interesting to contemplate. Thank you for showing me an angle
in Damage and the series I hadn't really noticed until now.
[> [> Minor Correction -- Dlgood, 07:31:46 02/09/04
And with Holtz's daughter-whom he turns into a vampire which
Holtz is forced to destroy.
Angelus didn't turn Holtz's daughter-he's killing Caroline Holtz
at the time. Darla turns the daughter, and it seems to have been
her idea, not his.
[> [> Am I the only one? (spoiler 5.1? -- tam, 12:24:53
Am I the only one who sees something -- I don't know, tender?
fatherly? -- in Angel's conversation with Spike in the hospital?
[> [> [> Re: Am I the only one? (spoiler 5.1?
-- Jane, 16:22:53 02/09/04 Mon
I think you saw something there, tam. I also thought that the
hospital scene showed Angel in a more sympathetic frame of mind
toward Spike. There seemed to be a softness in his expression,
along with sadness, that seemed to me to be a reflection of a
change of attitude towards Spike. A recognition, perhaps, that
he shares much with his grandchild.
[> [> [> No, you weren't the only one- regarding touching
(5.11 Damage spoilers) -- s'kat, 16:59:06 02/09/04 Mon
I saw the tenderness there as well, I actually didn't notice Pip's
take until Pip pointed it out. I find the idea of juxtaposing
both takes rather interesting though.
Spike and Angel and the idea of touching. Prior to getting souls
both of these guys were all about touching, often sadistically.
Now with souls-you see an odd sense of hesitancy on both their
parts. When Spike first reappears on BTVS in Lessons and Beneath
You-note how he pulls back from Buffy's desire to touch him or
anyone's. Anya's attempts to touch him in a tender or sexual way
Buffy's attempts are similarly rebuked in both Beneath You and
Lessons-when she tries to touch his chest and he states: "No
touching". Angel similarly seems to pull back from her at
first in Season 1 BTVS and in S3 BTVS when he first returns. Later
in both Season 3, and in Season 7, they allow Buffy to touch them,
but they do not have sex with her-or if they do, we never see
it on screen.
Now-going over to ATS-Faith mentions in Orpheus that Angel is
jonesing for a hug, but is reluctant to ask for it.
Spike is hugged by Andrew in Damage, but does not hug back, he
looks completely uncomfortable actually.
In the final scene, Spike's hands were removed then re-attached,
he can't touch right now. In fact he makes a point of mentioning
to Angel how he can't touch anything
right now until the drugs wear off. Angel, perhaps in a show of
sympathy or equal awkwardness, stuffs his hands in his pockets.
The scene is supposed to be a tender one and it is. I'm not sure
Pip is correct in viewing Angel as cold here. He's not.
On the other hand, noticing that Angel isn't touchy feely is interesting-because
he did seem to be to others. But those others are women. Also,
touching Spike in this scene probably wouldn't have been appropriate
or accepted by Spike, who is embarrassed and uncertain how to
deal. He's at his most vulnerable, completely naked. Angel, of
all people, understands that nakedness the most and hence the
stuffing of the hands in the pockets-both as a means of commiseration
and possibly of showing sympathy.
The scene can be watched both ways, as Angel distancing himself
and as Angel showing compassion-which works for me because Angel
like Spike is complicated.
[> [> [> [> Regarding touching (5.11 Damage spoilers)
-- Pip, 12:05:23 02/10/04 Tue
Spike's touching in BtVS S7 is certainly very hesitant, but I
took his hesitancy with Buffy as a sign that he too was traumatised
by the Attempted Rape-which I saw as a 'loss of control' rather
than something Spike had planned. If so, that would be why the
cuddling in Touched was so important. Spike's now able
to choose not to have sex with Buffy, even when he's sharing the
Anya, again, I saw as a consequence of S6 events. The last time
Spike had sex with Anya, Xander was hurt and furious. So with
the new soul comes a conscience-and he doesn't want to hurt Xander
when there's no need. Especially when Xander's letting him stay
at his place.
Spike has hugged in AtS-he positively leapt on Gunn when he re-corporealised.
Gunn was a bit surprised, but didn't fling him off [grin].
Going back to the 'hands in pockets' in Damage. It's certainly
a deliberate directorial decision (even if it was DB's idea, the
director has gone for it quite enthusiastically). The hands are
in the pockets from Angel's entrance into the scene (before Spike
mentions that he can't move his own hands). They stay in the pockets
throughout. The shots of Spike and Angel together are carefully
framed to show that Angel's hands are in his pockets. There is
also a quite beautifully constructed frame when Spike says: 'Though
the tingling in my forearms tells me-she's too far gone to help.'
At that point, we get a shot of Spike from the foot of the bed,
with Angel just in the side of the frame-and it's framed so you
can see that Angel's hands are in his pockets [grin].
I'd agree that Angel is probably making an attempt at tenderness;
but it's nearly all verbal. His face and his voice are saying
one thing; the rest of his body language is all about refusing
contact. As you say, he's a complicated character; I suspect that
this scene may be trying to show that Angel is also nearly 'too
far gone to help'. He's trying to be tender, he's trying to be
honest-and something in him is flatly refusing to do either.
Small point about Angel touching Spike, though, which fits very
neatly with the 'cycle of abuse' idea. Angel actually touches
Spike quite a lot-provided it's aggressive touching. For example,
he hits Spike on the chest earlier in Damage, (just after
Spike's fallen out of the window) when he's telling Spike 'You
should have waited'.
So he's either refusing to touch Spike non-aggressively, or he
simply doesn't know how to touch Spike non-aggressively.
Both options are pretty disturbing.
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for going into more depth.
I Agree with the above. -- s'kat, 19:58:32 02/10/04 Tue
[> [> It is about the kids now. (spoilers for AtS up
to 5.11') -- Ann, 12:27:55 02/09/04 Mon
It is about the kids now. Once you are a parent, it is not about
you anymore. Therefore, I think that Angel needs to deal with
this loss, this choice he made for his family. Spike may be there
now, may be his new surrogate child, but it is still about Connor.
"Do you have children?"
S'kat states in her post: "In Prodigal-Kate's father asks
Angel a question that appears to be haunting him throughout the
series: Do you have children? It's easy to judge me, but wait
until you have a son of your own. Until then you have no idea
what a father feels."
I agree that this may the question that is the basis for the series
now. Angel has had sires and grandsires. Angel has had many "children".
Every person he made into a vampire is his child. But then he
had Connor, his one real child. He let Connor "die".
For all of the children he had, his one true child can't live.
"Do you have children?" This question is the most brutal
question a parent who loses a child can be asked. The answer only
leads to long explanations that are not easily spoken or easily
heard hence reflected in the memory swipe. I wonder what number
Angel would give to answer that question. I wonder how Liam's
father would have answered that question. I wonder how Holtz,
Wes's dad, Connor, Cordelia would have answered that question.
Expectations and results. It is repeated over and over about what
it means to be a parent and how one should be a parent. Someone
on another board stated that they were glad this season, the first
according to this poster, did not have yet another pregnancy.
I think Pip shows that Spike may be the result of a pregnancy
of sorts. His blinding rebirth into Angel's lair.
Pip's post points out (repeat that aloud 10 times really fast)
that every character seems to be reiterating this growing up,
this relearning, this rebirth of the parent after having a child,
what it means to have a child and be a parent: Connor, Jasmine's
birth, the fantasy of the "perfect child" with her life,
and her death, Spike's rebirth with the amulet, even Lindsey (I'm
still working out that one) seems to fit this pattern. What it
means to live as child and as parent.
I am thinking that this is the question that Angel needs to deal
with. Angel is living his life, this replaying over and over,
with the "birth", "life", and "death"
of all of the other characters and relationships. He needs to
deal with his family, the ultimate irony for someone who has killed
so many families in his demon past.
[> [> Concerning daughters, I thought the name unsaid
was... (spoilers to AtS 5.11) -- Ixchel, 20:12:49 02/09/04
Drusilla, she could be Dana's dark (darker?) sister really.
I was almost waiting for Angel or Spike to mention her at the
The last scene was perfect even so.
For the record, I saw hesitant tenderness from Angel (MHO).
Interesting thoughts everyone.
| More February 2004