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I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome) -- skeeve, 13:44:44 02/10/04 Tue

When did Angel's gang become above torture?
Assuming they were above torture,
when did it become okay to have someone else do the job?

For those who don't remember, I'm refering to torturing Eve to get information about the fail-safe.

Masq, I'm surprised you missed this.

BTW would someone check the quote in the subject?
Harmony might have said "I'm still evil, technically."


[> Re: I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome) -- ZachsMind, 14:56:53 02/10/04 Tue

Firstly the situation you are referring to was invented to give Harmony a moment in the episode: a point where she could show where she fits and what she can do that no one else in the group can.

Secondly, Joss Whedon (or Mutant Enemy in a more vague way - no one particular person officially) may have thought we the audience would still see Eve as a part of the family. Personally, I never have. I've seen her as Lilah Lite, and when I first saw her in bed with Lindsey I laughed out loud. I coulda laid money down on that bet. There would have been a bit of group uncertainty about turning on Fred or Gunn or any regular. They can do it with glorified extras or "special guest star" roles, because they're tailor made for interrogation or torture or downright execution.

Third, they want to drive home to us that Angel's had his fill and most of the others are starting to get there. On the surface it looked like they could combat evil from this vantage point. Play the game by evil's rules and work within the rules to change them. After all, they'd tried swimming against the current for four years. Longer in Angel's case. And no headway. So it was appealing to try it this new way, working within the system hoping to change it. However, the group's beginning to learn that true evil is just too big. You don't change Wolfram & Hart. It changes you.

Finally, just because Harmony is evil, that doesn't make her attacking Eve right. However, it also doesn't make it wrong. This is ultimately the crux of why the writer(s) chose Harm to get Eve to talk. Harmony was the one in the room least conflicted, because she really doesn't care either way and never has. It's not that Harmony's evil. It's never been that. She's just ambivalent and apathetic. She goes with what works at the moment, which may coincidently make her best qualified for the job of passing judgment on someone like Eve. Harmony has nothing personally invested in Eve one way or the other. Harm doesn't care if it's wrong. She understood that the unspoken consensus of the room was that they all wanted to see Eve tortured. Harm gives herself EASILY to peer pressure.

For better or for worse, she went with majority rule.

[> Re: I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome) -- Kansas, 15:00:03 02/10/04 Tue

I was reminded of the alleged CIA practice of holding suspected terrorists in countries where torture is commonly used. *g*

[> I am evil, technically -- skeeve, 07:57:42 02/11/04 Wed

The subject is the correct quote.
The significance of "technically" might also be worthy of mention.
What does it mean to be "evil, technically"?
Masq, my recollection is that "evil, technically" is not an option on your web site.

[> [> Re: Evil, technically like demon, technically? -- Ames, 12:19:06 02/11/04 Wed

From Becoming Part 1:

Angel: You're not a vampire.

Whistler: A demon... technically. I mean, I'm not a bad guy. Not all demons are dedicated to the destruction of all life.

I think both Whistler and Harmony are using "technically" in the common way to mean that they are one thing by definition (i.e., demon = evil), but another by choice or defacto behaviour.

Willow's Magicks -- Jean, 14:21:39 02/10/04 Tue

Couple questions about Willow's magicks....First me and a friend were talking about differenet spells that she used and with some here eyes turn black were as on others nothing physically changed. Why?
Second in STSP why did,I'm sure that this has been answered, they never make physical contact like when they were all on the couch. Like I siad probably already answered but still


[> Re: Willow's Magicks -- Mighty Mouse, 17:22:18 02/10/04 Tue

Answer #1 - Willow (usually) kicks into "black eye" gear when she's really pouring on powerful magicks ("Seeing Red," "Villains," "Two to Go," "Grave," etc.) or multiple spells at once (like when she was fighting Glory in "Tough Love"). However, I recall her doing it briefly in "Selfless" even though it was a seemingly simple defense from the Spider-Demon-Thingy. One could surmise that: A. The spell was actually more powerful than it seemed or B. A bit of Dark Willow was "seeping" in.

Answer #2 - The spell was all about perception. Willow hid herself from the others, and the others from her, not just from sight, but from smell, sound, touch, etc. They could be sitting on top of each other and they wouldn't know it, or perceive it.

Foreshadowing in Same Time, Same Place (Spoilers for that ep and Chosen. -- fidhle, 21:09:05 02/10/04 Tue

I was watching Same Time, Same Place, S7 3rd ep, when I noticed a nice piece of forshadowing for the ultimate solution in Chosen.

Willow is in her room meditating to recuperate from being injured by Gnarl, when Buffy enters and has a conversation. Willow is getting strength from the earth to heal. The conversation interrupts her, but then: (transcript from Buffyworld.com)

Willow leans forward again, sighing, to begin meditating again.

I thought you were too tired.

It hurts too much not to try.

I'm sorry.

It just takes so much strength. I don't have that much.

I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.

Are you sure?

Will it help?


Buffy sits cross-legged in front of Willow and holds her hands. They meditate together.


I've always felt that was a beautiful scene, with the two old friends holding hands, but tonight caught the idea of sharing strenght, which became so important in Chosen.



[> That's a great catch, fid! I like it. -- Random, 22:05:07 02/10/04 Tue

[> Very nice! -- LittleBit, 22:35:46 02/10/04 Tue

Glad you posted this.

[> Re: Foreshadowing in Same Time, Same Place (Spoilers for that ep and Chosen. -- angel's nibblet, 19:30:44 02/11/04 Wed

I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.

Ooooooooo :-O! Nice one, thanks!

[> Foreshadowing in "Beneath You" (spoilers for that ep, "Help" and "Touched") -- Rob, 20:00:02 02/11/04 Wed

I noticed this a few days ago, rewatching Beneath You...

As Spike leans, smoldering on the cross, his last words in the episode are "CanÑcan we rest now? Buffy...can we rest?" This request will be fulfilled in Touched, when they will indeed rest together, as well as his hopes that "She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved." Interestingly, though, he doesn't believe that last part when she tells it to him at the end of Chosen. Which of course was also foreshadowed in Help, with Cassie's prediction that Buffy would "tell [him] one day."


[> [> Oh, and spoilers for "Chosen", too. in my above post -- Rob, 20:02:07 02/11/04 Wed

Mussings -- Ender, 02:11:07 02/11/04 Wed

I don't write here often, though I have visited this site consistently since the 2nd season. I guess I am the episteme of the lurkers, and maybe representative of many others. My actions are probably the result of not knowing what this interest was or even what the nature of this board is?

But I can tell you this; I was drawn to this board about this topic in a way that is so uniquely specific to this particular site.
That's fricken' bizarre.
I have read your writings, some I've liked and some I haven't. Not the point. What is entirely pointed is this, everyone that is here should be here for the same kind of reason. If they're not, then they shouldn't be writing here. If they are, then let's all try and remember that this should be fun and not take things to personally. Take yourselves a little less seriously and have a wink and a nudge when things get a little to melodramatic. Just like the show that we all love too watch and muse about does. Shall we? Let's shall.

Or maybe I'm just the asshole who really does not understand much at all. But I'm betting not.


[> Musing -- Ender, 02:15:49 02/11/04 Wed

Hah, that's funny. Spelling mistake. I think there is something in that.

Two topics, one OT, on not. (Spoilers for next week promo) -- Raven_NightDragon, 19:37:07 02/11/04 Wed

First off... Am I the only one who is getting annoyed by the WB's promos for certain shows? Every episode of Angel, Smallville, and Charmed has to be this big, specially titled event. They are truly annoying me... especially the Charmed commercials. I am so glad I don't watch that show.

Also... seeing the promo for next week show made me laugh steadily for almost tent minutes, and that is no exaggeration. "You're a tiny puppet man!"
Oh gods above and below that was funny.


[> Actually... -- ZachsMind, 21:26:44 02/11/04 Wed

I find WBs comercials preferable to the UPN Buffy commercials. WB knows how to get one's attention with the 'next week' montages. Charmed has grown on me. It's smarmy and predictable, but also adorable and a silly fun ride each time. It doesn't take itself too seriously and that's cool. It is an aquired taste, but if one gives it a chance it grows on ya. Besides, Rose McGowan is HOT.

Angel as a puppet's gonna be one of the best things this series has ever done. Or not. I'm lookin' forward to it regardless.

Cordy, More important than I ever thought... -- Glenn66, 01:02:44 02/12/04 Thu

Just picked up Angel Season 3 DVD, watching it now after seeing Cordy's goodbye, makes me miss her even more.

Obviously her purpose as recieving the Visions required her to be there. But after that she had no special powers and served as "The Zeppo" of the group. But like Zander, she became the heart of the group. Her voice became the "Everyperson's Voice" and that Voice is missing from this season, making it very different than any Buffy or any Earlier Angel season.

Cordy if a main character this season would probably have been the only one to not be seduced by W&H (Her acting desire/marry rich man desire seemed to no longer be there). So I guess in a way her character had to NOT be there for the plot to season arc to go foward. I really wish her influence would have been there this season, even if ignored, it needed to be said. I guess some of those lines were given to Spike or Andrew.

What you think...


[> spoiler for ep. 5.12 above -- anom, 10:04:48 02/12/04 Thu

Wilsonian Angel? (Spoilers for 5.13) -- Dlgood, 11:32:40 02/12/04 Thu

Angel's isolationism regarding "the fight" interests me on a new level after "Why We Fight".

We can see, in his arguments with Lawson on the boat - echoes of the same relationship Angel will have with the PtB. (Angel in Lawson's shoes)

But it reminds me a bit more of the US entry into WWI a bit more. In international relations, the US has a tradition of bouts of isolationism - not wanting to get involved or entangled in the morally complicated diplomacy of old Europe. In a sense, Wilson felt as much press-ganged into WWI as Angel felt going onto the sub.

The seminal scene in WWF is Angel deciding to vamp Lawson to save the crew - using and manipluating a dying crewman to save other lives. Like much in war, it's a situation where there really is no morally "right" or "good" decision. It's the sort of greyness Angel hates, and another reason for him to hide from the fight.

But, in those moments when he does care about his mission, or believe - he attacks it with zeal and strength.

I've got half formed questions about other parallels that somebody else should probably chop. Comparison between the US turning away from post-war settlement issues just as Angel turns his back on Lawson and Spike - and seeing how this would later bite back. But it's more food for thought than fully formed idea.

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