February 2004 posts
I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome)
-- skeeve, 13:44:44 02/10/04 Tue
When did Angel's gang become above torture?
Assuming they were above torture,
when did it become okay to have someone else do the job?
For those who don't remember, I'm refering to torturing Eve to
get information about the fail-safe.
Masq, I'm surprised you missed this.
BTW would someone check the quote in the subject?
Harmony might have said "I'm still evil, technically."
[> Re: I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome)
-- ZachsMind, 14:56:53 02/10/04 Tue
Firstly the situation you are referring to was invented to give
Harmony a moment in the episode: a point where she could show
where she fits and what she can do that no one else in the group
Secondly, Joss Whedon (or Mutant Enemy in a more vague way - no
one particular person officially) may have thought we the audience
would still see Eve as a part of the family. Personally, I never
have. I've seen her as Lilah Lite, and when I first saw her in
bed with Lindsey I laughed out loud. I coulda laid money down
on that bet. There would have been a bit of group uncertainty
about turning on Fred or Gunn or any regular. They can do it with
glorified extras or "special guest star" roles, because
they're tailor made for interrogation or torture or downright
Third, they want to drive home to us that Angel's had his fill
and most of the others are starting to get there. On the surface
it looked like they could combat evil from this vantage point.
Play the game by evil's rules and work within the rules to change
them. After all, they'd tried swimming against the current for
four years. Longer in Angel's case. And no headway. So it was
appealing to try it this new way, working within the system hoping
to change it. However, the group's beginning to learn that true
evil is just too big. You don't change Wolfram & Hart. It changes
Finally, just because Harmony is evil, that doesn't make her attacking
Eve right. However, it also doesn't make it wrong. This is ultimately
the crux of why the writer(s) chose Harm to get Eve to talk. Harmony
was the one in the room least conflicted, because she really doesn't
care either way and never has. It's not that Harmony's evil. It's
never been that. She's just ambivalent and apathetic. She goes
with what works at the moment, which may coincidently make her
best qualified for the job of passing judgment on someone like
Eve. Harmony has nothing personally invested in Eve one way or
the other. Harm doesn't care if it's wrong. She understood that
the unspoken consensus of the room was that they all wanted to
see Eve tortured. Harm gives herself EASILY to peer pressure.
For better or for worse, she went with majority rule.
[> Re: I'm evil, technically (spoiler for You're welcome)
-- Kansas, 15:00:03 02/10/04 Tue
I was reminded of the alleged CIA practice of holding suspected
terrorists in countries where torture is commonly used. *g*
[> I am evil, technically -- skeeve, 07:57:42 02/11/04
The subject is the correct quote.
The significance of "technically" might also be worthy
What does it mean to be "evil, technically"?
Masq, my recollection is that "evil, technically" is
not an option on your web site.
[> [> Re: Evil, technically like demon, technically?
-- Ames, 12:19:06 02/11/04 Wed
From Becoming Part 1:
Angel: You're not a vampire.
Whistler: A demon... technically. I mean, I'm not a bad guy. Not
all demons are dedicated to the destruction of all life.
I think both Whistler and Harmony are using "technically"
in the common way to mean that they are one thing by definition
(i.e., demon = evil), but another by choice or defacto behaviour.
Willow's Magicks -- Jean,
14:21:39 02/10/04 Tue
Couple questions about Willow's magicks....First me and a friend
were talking about differenet spells that she used and with some
here eyes turn black were as on others nothing physically changed.
Second in STSP why did,I'm sure that this has been answered, they
never make physical contact like when they were all on the couch.
Like I siad probably already answered but still
[> Re: Willow's Magicks -- Mighty Mouse, 17:22:18
Answer #1 - Willow (usually) kicks into "black eye"
gear when she's really pouring on powerful magicks ("Seeing
Red," "Villains," "Two to Go," "Grave,"
etc.) or multiple spells at once (like when she was fighting Glory
in "Tough Love"). However, I recall her doing it briefly
in "Selfless" even though it was a seemingly simple
defense from the Spider-Demon-Thingy. One could surmise that:
A. The spell was actually more powerful than it seemed or B. A
bit of Dark Willow was "seeping" in.
Answer #2 - The spell was all about perception. Willow hid herself
from the others, and the others from her, not just from sight,
but from smell, sound, touch, etc. They could be sitting on top
of each other and they wouldn't know it, or perceive it.
Foreshadowing in Same Time,
Same Place (Spoilers for that ep and Chosen. -- fidhle, 21:09:05
I was watching Same Time, Same Place, S7 3rd ep, when I noticed
a nice piece of forshadowing for the ultimate solution in Chosen.
Willow is in her room meditating to recuperate from being injured
by Gnarl, when Buffy enters and has a conversation. Willow is
getting strength from the earth to heal. The conversation interrupts
her, but then: (transcript from Buffyworld.com)
Willow leans forward again, sighing, to begin meditating again.
I thought you were too tired.
It hurts too much not to try.
It just takes so much strength. I don't have that much.
I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.
Are you sure?
Will it help?
Buffy sits cross-legged in front of Willow and holds her hands.
They meditate together.
I've always felt that was a beautiful scene, with the two old
friends holding hands, but tonight caught the idea of sharing
strenght, which became so important in Chosen.
[> That's a great catch, fid! I like it. -- Random,
22:05:07 02/10/04 Tue
[> Very nice! -- LittleBit, 22:35:46 02/10/04 Tue
Glad you posted this.
[> Re: Foreshadowing in Same Time, Same Place (Spoilers
for that ep and Chosen. -- angel's nibblet, 19:30:44 02/11/04
I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.
Ooooooooo :-O! Nice one, thanks!
[> Foreshadowing in "Beneath You" (spoilers for
that ep, "Help" and "Touched") -- Rob,
20:00:02 02/11/04 Wed
I noticed this a few days ago, rewatching Beneath You...
As Spike leans, smoldering on the cross, his last words in the
episode are "CanÑcan we rest now? Buffy...can we rest?"
This request will be fulfilled in Touched, when they will
indeed rest together, as well as his hopes that "She shall
look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love.
He will be loved." Interestingly, though, he doesn't believe
that last part when she tells it to him at the end of Chosen.
Which of course was also foreshadowed in Help, with Cassie's
prediction that Buffy would "tell [him] one day."
[> [> Oh, and spoilers for "Chosen", too. in
my above post -- Rob, 20:02:07 02/11/04 Wed
Mussings -- Ender, 02:11:07
I don't write here often, though I have visited this site consistently
since the 2nd season. I guess I am the episteme of the lurkers,
and maybe representative of many others. My actions are probably
the result of not knowing what this interest was or even what
the nature of this board is?
But I can tell you this; I was drawn to this board about this
topic in a way that is so uniquely specific to this particular
That's fricken' bizarre.
I have read your writings, some I've liked and some I haven't.
Not the point. What is entirely pointed is this, everyone that
is here should be here for the same kind of reason. If they're
not, then they shouldn't be writing here. If they are, then let's
all try and remember that this should be fun and not take things
to personally. Take yourselves a little less seriously and have
a wink and a nudge when things get a little to melodramatic. Just
like the show that we all love too watch and muse about does.
Shall we? Let's shall.
Or maybe I'm just the asshole who really does not understand much
at all. But I'm betting not.
[> Musing -- Ender, 02:15:49 02/11/04 Wed
Hah, that's funny. Spelling mistake. I think there is something
Two topics, one OT, on not.
(Spoilers for next week promo) -- Raven_NightDragon,
19:37:07 02/11/04 Wed
First off... Am I the only one who is getting annoyed by the WB's
promos for certain shows? Every episode of Angel, Smallville,
and Charmed has to be this big, specially titled event. They are
truly annoying me... especially the Charmed commercials. I am
so glad I don't watch that show.
Also... seeing the promo for next week show made me laugh steadily
for almost tent minutes, and that is no exaggeration. "You're
a tiny puppet man!"
Oh gods above and below that was funny.
[> Actually... -- ZachsMind, 21:26:44 02/11/04 Wed
I find WBs comercials preferable to the UPN Buffy commercials.
WB knows how to get one's attention with the 'next week' montages.
Charmed has grown on me. It's smarmy and predictable, but also
adorable and a silly fun ride each time. It doesn't take itself
too seriously and that's cool. It is an aquired taste, but if
one gives it a chance it grows on ya. Besides, Rose McGowan is
Angel as a puppet's gonna be one of the best things this series
has ever done. Or not. I'm lookin' forward to it regardless.
Cordy, More important than
I ever thought... -- Glenn66, 01:02:44 02/12/04 Thu
Just picked up Angel Season 3 DVD, watching it now after seeing
Cordy's goodbye, makes me miss her even more.
Obviously her purpose as recieving the Visions required her to
be there. But after that she had no special powers and served
as "The Zeppo" of the group. But like Zander, she became
the heart of the group. Her voice became the "Everyperson's
Voice" and that Voice is missing from this season, making
it very different than any Buffy or any Earlier Angel season.
Cordy if a main character this season would probably have been
the only one to not be seduced by W&H (Her acting desire/marry
rich man desire seemed to no longer be there). So I guess in a
way her character had to NOT be there for the plot to season arc
to go foward. I really wish her influence would have been there
this season, even if ignored, it needed to be said. I guess some
of those lines were given to Spike or Andrew.
What you think...
[> spoiler for ep. 5.12 above -- anom, 10:04:48 02/12/04
Wilsonian Angel? (Spoilers
for 5.13) -- Dlgood, 11:32:40 02/12/04 Thu
Angel's isolationism regarding "the fight" interests
me on a new level after "Why We Fight".
We can see, in his arguments with Lawson on the boat - echoes
of the same relationship Angel will have with the PtB. (Angel
in Lawson's shoes)
But it reminds me a bit more of the US entry into WWI a bit more.
In international relations, the US has a tradition of bouts of
isolationism - not wanting to get involved or entangled in the
morally complicated diplomacy of old Europe. In a sense, Wilson
felt as much press-ganged into WWI as Angel felt going onto the
The seminal scene in WWF is Angel deciding to vamp Lawson to save
the crew - using and manipluating a dying crewman to save other
lives. Like much in war, it's a situation where there really is
no morally "right" or "good" decision. It's
the sort of greyness Angel hates, and another reason for him to
hide from the fight.
But, in those moments when he does care about his mission, or
believe - he attacks it with zeal and strength.
I've got half formed questions about other parallels that somebody
else should probably chop. Comparison between the US turning away
from post-war settlement issues just as Angel turns his back on
Lawson and Spike - and seeing how this would later bite back.
But it's more food for thought than fully formed idea.
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