January 2002 posts

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You made a Trollop Board??!! It's Christmas all over again! -- Marie, 01:53:12 01/07/02 Mon

Firstly - Happy New Year, everyone! It's my first day back at work and I couldn't wait to see what was going on here!

Secondly - you made a Trollop Board!! Oh, happy day! As the first Trollop, I can't tell you how gleeful I am to see that (I'm telling myself I should scroll through the posts here, before taking a look, but do you think I'll be able to wait?!).

And thirdly - this is the big week for us in the UK. Thursday is the day! Ooooh, picture me, at this moment, 'doing a Numfar'! Wriggle, wriggle, jig, jig!

A Trollop Board and 'Bargaining' in the same week! There is a God!

On reflection, going to save the TB 'til later - after all, I might be interrupted by actual, er, work, so I'm going to savour the anticipation for a while...

Sorry about the waffle - I get carried away! But it's so 'woo and hoo'!!


[> Re: You made a Trollop Board??!! It's Christmas all over again! -- Shaglio, 06:41:55 01/07/02 Mon

Well, I'm glad I finally had a relevent impact on this message board (even if it wasn't mindbendingly philosophical). I knew I was good for something ;)

[> Silly reaction to message line -- Kimberly, 07:22:25 01/07/02 Mon

OT, but when I read your message line, I heard Spike in Pangs: "You made a bear! Change it back!"


[> [> Not silly - I meant it to! -- Marie, 09:04:43 01/07/02 Mon

[> [> [> Cool! -- Kimberly, 09:26:12 01/07/02 Mon

[> Re: You made a Trollop Board??!! It's Christmas all over again! -- Shaglio, 07:42:02 01/07/02 Mon

Well, I'm glad I finally had a relevent impact on this message board (even if it wasn't mindbendingly philosophical). I knew I was good for something ;)

Wildfeed is posted at the Trollup Board........link above -- Rufus, 05:38:05 01/07/02 Mon

[> OT: To Rufus or Wisewoman... -- Marie, 06:36:35 01/07/02 Mon

Just finished reading the posts here, and right down at the bottom (the "where are you from?" thread), WW says Rufus is from Tsawassen. Just curious, but how do you pronounce that? (In my head I'm saying Suh-wass-'n - is that right?).


[> [> Re: OT: To Rufus or Wisewoman... -- Rufus, 06:39:03 01/07/02 Mon

You have the correct way of saying Tsawwassen.....but I still go heavy on the Twassen (heavy on the T) type of pronunciation. And darn it I forget what it means in English.

[> [> [> Blimey, that was quick! Thanks. -- Marie, 06:52:51 01/07/02 Mon

I like to know I'm saying things correctly! If you remember what it means, I'd be interested to know.


[> According to the Canadian Aboriginal site... -- WW, 08:36:43 01/07/02 Mon

Tsawwassen is a Halkomelem word which means "beach at the mouth" or "facing the sea". The band is part of the Salishan linguistic group.

...appropriate, because that's where you go to catch the ferry to Victoria, on Vancouver Island!


[> [> Ta, muchly! I knew you were wise! -- Marie, 09:01:04 01/07/02 Mon

[> Ah, temptation! -- Dariel, 15:24:31 01/07/02 Mon

One of my New Years resolutions is to stop reading spoilers. The other is to get a life so I can then swear off something more substantive!

[> Why do I keep reading this?!?!? -- vampire hunter D, 12:57:16 01/08/02 Tue

I don't want to be spoiled (it does ruin the watching of the episode). I want to wait and see what happens. And yet I keep reading thesse wildfeeds! Dammit, I have less control than Willow

Buffy's representation at the IFA Awards show. What would you have chosen? -- Darby, 08:22:03 01/07/02 Mon

I have a couple of comments on the actual broadcast of the IFA Awards on CBS last Saturday:

I thought that the clip representing Buffy (the nominated shows were demonstrated with clips, maybe 30 seconds long) was a poor choice: the last part (from the freeing of the hunk prisoner to the end) of "Going Through the Motions" from OMwF. As a representation of Buffy for the uninitiated, it would seem to just reinforce the "cutesy" image many people get from the name. Yes, we know that that segment was supposed to be cutesy, that the Disneyesque theme was a great counterpoint to the underlying message and the general tone of BtVS - but we watch the show!

If it had to come from OMwF, what 30-second clip would you have picked to convey the flavor of the show, as you see it?

My wife would have gone with the opening of "I've Got a Theory," because it shows the typical Scooby interactions, captures the show's humor and gives some idea of the common plot pieces. (Besides, she says, Giles sounds really cute in it - Shades of the Bronze Board!)

I'd have chosen part of "Walk Through the Fire," probably enough to get the sophisticated interplay in and, if time would allow, the beat of the firetrucks passing, cause it's just so darned impressive.

What would you pick?

On a second note, the show itself didn't give much impression that anyone associated with BtVS was actually there, but they really didn't do a heckuva lot of audience shots anyway. There was one shot that might have been Michelle Trachtenberg, if she gets kind of blandly gorgeous in high-style makeup (whoever it was, she only sort of looked like MT until she smiled at the end of the shot). It was an interesting awards show in some ways, but really shortchanged TV - no writing, directing, music, technical, or supporting ("featured," they called them) actors awards, although movies had all of those. I know it's a film institute, but why do TV at all if not to fully do it?

[> I'd go with "Walk Through the Fire," too, because it has an inescapable drama to it. -- CW, 11:07:22 01/07/02 Mon

[> Re: Additional Questions answered. -- Darby, 12:00:55 01/07/02 Mon

Through Slayage, I found the photo site that gives who was there (at least who got photographed) and it was MT I saw - it must have been the TV angle that changed her appearance, because she looks much more like herself in the site photos.

The photos from the AFI are at


[> [> Re: Amber, Joss and JM appear to have been there too -- squireboy, 12:19:09 01/07/02 Mon

from looking through some of the photos.


Thanks for the link, that's a neat site.



[> [> Also in that gallery -- vampire hunter D, 12:26:13 01/07/02 Mon

Amber benson (on page 3), James Marsters (on page 17, which is nothing but pictures of him), and Joss (on pg 17+18, with James and Amber). Michelle T is on pg 28-30 (there were moer pictures of her than James). Unfortunately, to look at the pictures not he thumbnails) you need a login code. Which I don't have.

[> [> [> I'd have to go with.... -- Forsaken, 17:15:03 01/07/02 Mon

I'd have gone with part of R.I.P. That's mostly cause I like Spike, I admit, but also because the song just has such great appeal and imagery. Every genre of music has plenty of love and angst songs, from country to metal. A lot of people can relate to that. It's a good idea to use such easily related material to represent your show. I'd show him dancing on the coffin and wrecking the the funeral, just to get a shot of Spike's game face on the tape.

[> Re: Buffy's representation at the IFA Awards show. What would you have chosen? -- Rob, 13:01:12 01/08/02 Tue

Well, for starters, the clip had to come from OMWF, b/c that's the ep that was nominated. These award shows always only nominate one particular episode. Unfortunately, OMWF is in a unique situation: On the one hand, it's probably the best episode the show has ever produced. On the other, it is an episode that, in many ways, can only truly be appreciated by a regular viewer of the show. Showing a musical clip from a show that is usually not is a weird decision. If it could have been from any ep, I would've picked Anya's speech in "The Body," or a scene from "The Gift." From OMWF..."Walk Through the Fire," definitely.


Vamp sunscreen! -- Nevermore, 08:33:48 01/07/02 Mon

Irritating post instalment Number 2:If wood-proof vests are a bit of a pointless invention (Vamps seem to be quite self conscious - and kevlar aint very stylish...) then a revolutionary SPF 500 Vamp-Special sunscreen could be all the rage. (I think I saw something similar on Gremlins 2 - the bat gremlin got injected with something...) If it was possible to inject the slayer with something to take away her powers - then I think the sun problem could be easily sorted out. Then the poor slayers would never get any sleep - they would be on 24 hour callout :-)And maybe those sickly pale vamps might get a wholesome tan to make them appear healthier...

[> Re: Vamp sunscreen! -- Apophis, 13:05:21 01/07/02 Mon

I don't know. What about their eyes? Sunglasses, I guesss. But every time the vamp spoke, his/her teeth and tongue would burst into flames!

[> [> Re: Vamp sunscreen! -- MrDave, 18:28:14 01/07/02 Mon

Not to mention the problem with injecting a drug into a being with little or no circulatory system.

As for speaking...a skimask would probably work. However, it has been demonstrated by Spike (bless his bleach blonde head) that even well covered Vampires will begin to smoulder in direct sunlight. I would think that they would need something along the lines of a HUGE nearly opaque parasol to provide the requisite indirectness to the sunlight.

So..equipped with sunscreen, umbrella, towel (keep your towel handy!) blanket (for longer runs), and a basket full of backups and additional sunscreen, and a large body of water (in case of system failure) you have....the average Beachcomber!

[> [> [> Re: Vamp sunscreen! -- Deeva, 21:04:00 01/07/02 Mon

Wasn't this all a part of some movie that came out like 6 years ago? They had vamps who took a pill of some sort that kept them from burst into flame in the sunlight but they still had to wear sunscreen, kinda like zinc oxide, and sunglasses. Was it "Blade"?

[> [> [> [> Now I'm seeing Spike with a pretty, frilly, pink parasol... thanks for that! -- Marie, 02:36:52 01/08/02 Tue

And it looks so sweet with his black leather coat and DMs!


[> [> [> [> Re: Vamp sunscreen! -- skeeve, 08:05:58 01/08/02 Tue

Love and Curses nee She-wolf of London had an episode in which all the lawyers in a law firm were vampires that wore the kind of wax used in wax museum statues. 'Twasn't clear what they did about the eyes, ears, nose, or mouth. Apparently nothing.

'Twas a wonderful series. Too bad there wasn't more of it. Maybe Kate Hodge can be Oz's next love interest.

[> [> [> [> Re: Vamp sunscreen! -- Eric, 21:06:48 01/08/02 Tue

Give that man a cigar! Yes it was "Blade". And according to a post below, an idea in a British series. But is a vamp's vulnerability to sunlight based on UV rays or some other type of radiation?

Wither Willow -- skeeve, 09:08:56 01/07/02 Mon

It's unlikely that Willow can or should be persuaded or forced to give up magic. Willow needs to find useful things to do with magic.

Willow can slay vampires better than Buffy. She can fly. Give her a box of pencils, and she can dust a whole crowd of vampires from perfect safety.

Willow can teach and she enjoys it. As noted elsewhere, Xander is the only Scooby without a superhuman power. He would likely want to learn magic. Anya would probably want be in the class also.

Willow should cure Oz. She could find the spell the same way she found the de-ratting spell.

Willow should be persuaded or forced to quit using magic on people for her own convenience or petty vengeance.

[> Re: Wither Willow -- maddog, 09:49:27 01/07/02 Mon

And which show have you been watching all season? They didn't just come up to Willow one day and say, "you know what, you need to stop the magic". They've been perfectly fine with it for a while now. A little surprised at her levels, but still cool with it...then she began to abuse it...she's been doing it all season...and it's gotten her and the others in trouble on more than one occasion this season. You know...the drug metaphore. That's why she's being asked to stop.

[> [> Re: Wither Willow -- skeeve, 07:59:24 01/08/02 Tue

Willow has not been abusing magic. She has been abusing others and herself. Yes, I noticed.

The drug metaphor fails a bit because magic can be much more useful than cocaine and because it's not clear that magic is addictive. One doesn't have to be addicted to magic to be power-mad.

The Scoobies need magic. Glory might not be the last hell-god to come to town. (I could bring up Adam here, but Adam's invulnrability didn't make sense even in the Buffyverse.) Even worse, the WC might come back.

Having Willow teach magic would help her feel important while doing something actually useful.

[> [> [> Re: Wither Willow -- maddog, 11:49:52 01/08/02 Tue

She's been abusing other people with the magic though...it has the same end result. :) "It's not clear that magic is addictive"...for Willow it certainly is...they've practically knocked us over the head with that...Tara would say, "cool off with the magic" and yet Willow would still do it and hide it from Tara...now tell me that's not a sign of addiction. :) I'm in total agree the Scoobies need magic...doesn't mean Willow has to do it all the time...for non slayer related things. I never said teaching was a bad thing, she's always loved that...but it's the abuse involved with it that bothers many people.

[> [> [> [> Re: Whither Willow -- Pri*k Poster, Occasionally Erudite, 12:35:37 01/08/02 Tue

I have nothing to add to this thread, but that misspelling was driving me insane.

[> [> [> [> [> me too! thank you! -- anom, 22:30:33 01/08/02 Tue

Although she might actually wither if she OD's on magic....

[> [> [> [> Addiction? Or just bad choices? -- Dyna, 12:47:19 01/08/02 Tue

I don't think it necessarily follows that because Willow continued to do magic at the risk of her relationship with Tara, magic must be "addictive." Willow gets something from magic--a sense of identity, of value, maybe an escape from her lingering belief that she's still just a high-school "spaz" underneath. Those are not insignificant things to her. She's clearly willing to take great risks to hold onto them. Maybe her values are out of whack, but it doesn't automatically follow that she's not acting out of free will. You could argue that Willow simply valued what she got from magic more than she valued Tara's opinion on the subject. Or alternatively, that Willow's weaknesses of insecurity and self-doubt have a more powerful hold over her than her love for Tara could overcome. But these are still Willow's choices to make--and Tara's to respond to in whatever way she sees fit.

I'm not saying I think Willow is making good decisions about this--her whole situation with Tara, and now even with swearing off magic, smacks of avoidance and personal dishonesty. I'm not even sure that admitting to a magic "addiction" is a step in the right direction, if it means Willow continues to avoid responsibility for the choices she's made--hiding behind "I need help!" as a way of not being honest with herself.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Addiction? Or just bad choices? -- maddog, 13:15:22 01/08/02 Tue

But where all of her bad choices seem to involve magic don't you think that qualifies as an addiction? She has this need to perform magic to the point where she abuses Tara's mind, then everyone else's, then won't stop and in doing so let's Tara go, and then gets into an accident with Dawn because of something she let out from magic...all of those poor decisions come from a need to do magic even when people are saying she's abusing it.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Addiction? Or just bad choices? -- Rattletrap, 06:50:44 01/09/02 Wed

Willow has made some bad choices regarding magic, that is beyond dispute. That said, I think there is clearly an addiction of sorts at work here. Her dependency probably isn't physical like an addiction to nicotine, caffeine, or opium would be. It is more likely a psychological addiction--she is addicted to the feelings of power that come from performing magic. Casting spells allows her to rise above her lot as a spaz, nerd, and loser from high school and gives her power to control life. A good parallel might be alcholism--someone begins to drink as a way to temporarily escape from his or her lot in life. A bad decision, certainly, but one that opens a door. They begin drinking regularly as a means of escape and become dependent on those feelings more than on the booze itself. In short, I would argue that bad decisions can lead to addiction.

Just my opinion, I welcome further discussion.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Addiction? Or just bad choices? -- DEN, 10:06:21 01/09/02 Wed

'trap, I share your perspective. I keep asking on this board--and geting few answers--if Willow is a power junkie or on a power trip, what is she DOING with her power? We see no signs of a Sauron in the making, no sign that she wants power for "external" purposes like a Hitler,a Stalin, or even a George Bush and a Bill Clinton. Instead power fills the "holes in her soul. " And as it takes more and more power to do that, the addictive metaphor becomes correspondingly more credible.

[> [> [> [> Re: Whither Willow -- skeeve, 13:12:20 01/08/02 Tue

Willow's behavior reminds me of an air-hockey player that I saw. He kept playing until his hand turned bloody. I wandered through the game room as he was switching hands. Is air-hockey addictive? Would the answer change if he were damaging the hands of innocent bystanders? What if he were putting their fingers and elbows at risk of removal?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Whither Willow -- Katrina, 14:52:11 01/08/02 Tue

Maybe it's just that the whole idea of a "Willow gets addicted to magic" storyline is just sooooo "90210," but it does seem that the term "addiction" gets tossed around pretty easily for things that could be seen as bad choices. My whole problem with Willow's behavior is the lack of responsibility she's taken for her choices (keep in mind I haven't seen all of season six yet, so I could be putting my foot in my mouth). She's a little bit "oops, my bad" about the consequences of some of her spells. Then later, she makes lip service about how it won't happen again--once she described to Tara how she'd learned her lesson in terms like "bad magic, friends in danger," after the events of "Something Blue"--but then she turns right around and makes the same mistakes again. Maybe the idea of actual addiction makes that behavior make sense, but the idea of "addiction" isn't a helpful metaphor to me, and doesn't get to the problem of taking responsibility for her choices. It could be said that she's getting addicted to power, which is just another way of saying she's had a taste of being powerful, and she likes it. And maybe she's willing to blur some moral lines to keep it.

Who made Spike? -- Grace, 17:37:43 01/07/02 Mon

Question: Who made Spike a vampire? I thought Dru did (when he ran into the alley crying b/c his latest love laughed at his poetry) but in the re-run the other night Spike called Angel his sire. Which is it?

[> Re: Who made Spike? -- Kathy, 17:41:04 01/07/02 Mon

Angel made Dru a vampire, and then Dru did make Spike a vampire. I read somewhere that Joss Whedon defines "sire" as someone with the same lineage as you... so since they're of the same line, Spike could call Angel sire...

[> [> Re: Who made Spike? -- Grace, 17:49:40 01/07/02 Mon


[> [> Re: Who made Spike? -- Monster Blues, 23:07:39 01/07/02 Mon

I always felt the Dru siring Spike was a retcon, I mean we all know what sire means traditionally in vampire stories, that's ok though but Joss should have just said he liked the idea of Dru making Spike better.

[> Re: Who made Spike? -- change, 17:43:41 01/07/02 Mon

Dru made Spike, and Angel made Dru. So Angel is Spike's sire through Dru. Maybe Angel should really be called Spike's grandsire.

[> [> Re: Who made Spike? -- MrDave, 18:20:57 01/07/02 Mon

Want to really twist your noodle?

- The Master Sired Darla

- Darla Sired Angel

- Angel Sired Drusilla

- Drusilla Sired Spike

- Darla was Resurrected as human

- Drusilla Sired Darla

So...that means that

- The master is both Darla Sire and Great-Grand sire

- Angel is both her childer and grand-Sire

- Drusilla is both her grand-childer and sire

- Spike is both her "brother" and grand-childer

Tell me THAT doesn't make things complicated at birthday time. Hm...that means that Angel's son is also his "brother" ...(Head beginning to hurt now....)

[> [> [> It's starting sound like a Jenny Jones/Geraldo/trailer park show family reunion in here! ;o) -- Deeva, 21:00:41 01/07/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> I'd pay to see that show! (Spoiler: "Smashed") -- Tellab, 14:29:15 01/08/02 Tue

I'd want to see Buffy there too. I could just see it playing out:

Dru: My family gone. Again. I lost my two boys to her, the slayer. Now I lost my grandmother/childe.(whimper)

Angel: Buffy, I left you because I can't stand the thought of you being with someone that can't lead you to the light. You move on with Spike?

Buffy: Well you slept with Darla! You have her child!

Spike: Bloody women! I'm not demon enough for one, not good enough for the other! My poof of a grandsire, I always lose to you! Wait...you and Darla have a child? How? And human? I have a human brother? Uhh, uncle, or is it nephew? Uhgg, bugger it...

Sorry to sully this board's intellectual rep. I just can't stand the wait : )

[> [> [> Angel sleeps with his sire...sounds like a Oedipus complex if you ask me -- maddog, 07:32:24 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel sleeps with his sire...sounds like a Oedipus complex if you ask me -- yabyumpan, 10:36:31 01/08/02 Tue

Angel sleeps with his sire...sounds like a Oedipus complex if you ask me

That sounds like an interesting thread, has it been done yet. I'd start it off but i've just popped in for a quick lurk (although it looks likes i've managed to delurk, how does that happen?),as I'm on my way out. Maybe someone could start it off and I'll come by again later.

thanks maddog, now i'm not going to be able to focus properly on what i'm meant to be focusing on when i'm out!!!!!!GRRRR

I love this board!!!!!

[> [> [> [> [> You want an oedipal complex, try Spike -- Masq, 11:18:29 01/08/02 Tue

The Angel/Dru/Spike fits the classic Oedipal profile. We have a father figure - Angelus - a mother figure - Dru - and the child - Spike. Dru's siring of Spike entangles him more firmly into this complex relationship because she, in a sense, birthed him into this life. Angelus' siring would somehow distance Spike from Dru, rather than result in the closeness they shared, making him more brother than lover. In this relationship, Spike feels a hatred for Angelus, his "father", a desire to kill him and to take his place in "mother" Dru's bed. Dru is fulfilling her role in the triangle by catering to both of them, fueling the fire of competition (strigoi, Jan 21 16:09 2000).

Less than 24 Hours until "Gone!" I would say it feels like Xmas again, but... -- Rob, 22:07:17 01/07/02 Mon

...it's much better than Christmas. There ain't no new "Buffy" eps on Christmas, after all. ;o) lol


[> Re: Less than 24 Hours until "Gone!" I would say it feels like Xmas again, but... -- Dedalus, 11:10:04 01/08/02 Tue

It's been so maddeningly long since we saw the last episode ... I don't even remember it.

What's this show about again, anyway?


[> [> I don't remember, but that chick who makes out with Selma Blair in "Cruel Intentions" is in it. ;o) -- Rob, 11:43:39 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> And it use to have the older guy from those coffee commercials a while back. ;o) -- Deeva, 15:15:41 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> Don't forget that wacky "band camp" girl from American Pie! -- Rob, 19:31:12 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> And that girl from 90210, don't forget her -- Slayrunt, 21:29:55 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> And the cameraman from The House on Haunted Hill -- trap, 06:31:51 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> and the cute couple from My Stepmother is an Alian -- tost, 16:04:53 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> ok, from this point on down you're losing me -- anom, 18:45:06 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> And the little girl from 'Inspector Gadget', by Joss, this show is wierd! -- pagangodess, 19:41:43 01/09/02 Wed

One week until the Buffy DVD Set arrives! -- Rob-who-can't-wait-to-hear-Joss'-commentary-tracks!, 22:11:58 01/07/02 Mon

I've already ordered mine at my local Suncoast. I am the most excited little boy in the entire world!

Rob :o) :o) :o)

[> Want to be almost as Happy? Psyche is back online...:):):) -- Rufus, 01:35:37 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> Re: Want to be almost as Happy? Psyche is back online...:):):) -- Sebastian, 08:29:59 01/08/02 Tue

ummm...i've tried getting there but the link isn't working for me - is there a new link that is available?

i feel much like willow right now, without my script 'fix'. :-P

- S

[> [> [> eeek! i should have changed the previous messsage's subject line to...... -- Sebastian, 08:32:31 01/08/02 Tue

....i need help finding it! (ie, psyche's link):-P

- S

[> [> [> [> Try this... -- Marie, 08:52:31 01/08/02 Tue


Works for me, anyway!


[> Re: One week until the Buffy DVD Set arrives! -- neaux, 07:50:56 01/08/02 Tue

me wants...too.. but I didnt reserve... I'll have to do some poor man's begging too..

lemme see.. i have $8 left on a gift card to suncoast.. and a $5 gift certificate from them....

[> Re: One week until the Buffy DVD Set arrives! -- BL, 21:37:16 01/08/02 Tue

They started selling it in stores here in Vancouver last Friday... I spent the whole weekend watching! Fabulous!

[> [> Oooh, I'm so jealous! You guys in Vancouver are so lucky! -- Rob, 21:54:56 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> BL? Another Vancouverite? ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:52:36 01/09/02 Wed

You must not have replied to the "where are you located thread!"

Nice to know there's another Vancouverite on the board...


Interesting, very British, article on Buffy. -- Darby, 10:32:25 01/08/02 Tue

Maybe you've seen this before, but I just stumbled across it...

It gives a very British (and fairly accurate) introduction to the Buffy world.


[> o bloody 'ell -- Nevermore, 11:58:33 01/08/02 Tue

notice that in the character definitions the character of giles gets the most analysis :-) some of the characters seem to be dismissed in a few words - (i think we can deduce the age of the journalist from this!) The writer does make some valid points though - and has watched the show - unlike the sad uninformed btvs reviewer brought 2 notice earlier on this posting board!

[> [> Re: o bloody 'ell -- Raven_NightDragon, 12:35:47 01/08/02 Tue

Also, in the character definitions, they listed Faith as being dead. They skimmed on the research a little, I think.

[> [> [> Ok, I just have to say: you've got the coolest name I've ever seen on here -- vampire hunter D, 13:04:06 01/08/02 Tue

[> [> [> Re: o bloody 'ell -- yabyumpan, 15:44:26 01/08/02 Tue

The paper does seem to really like BtVS though, there's a really good article in this weeks Guardian TV guide, best show around, miss it if you dare etc. Haven't got a scanner so I can't put it on this board and I don't know if they archive the TV guide reviews but it was great getting it on Sat with the Buffster on the front page. For all you folks outside the UK, the Guardian is a fairly liberal/leftish broad sheet and one of the best selling "quality" papers in the UK.

[> Two points... -- GreatRewards, 07:50:28 01/09/02 Wed

I laughed at the following (obviously British) statement:

"Americans, though, are always tinkering with words in this way, in all kinds of telly scenarios. They are just jealous that they didn't make up this language. We did."

And did you notice that in the "Who's Who" section, they list Ted!! As if he were a principle character or something. For goodness sake, he was in ONE episode, and he was destroyed. How come they don't mention all the other one-timers?


Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rob, 19:30:00 01/08/02 Tue

Do you really need me to expostulate the brilliance that is "Buffy"? You're a regular on this posting board. You already know. But please tell me, what other show could reuse a plot device (in this case, invisibility), and have it be used for a different metaphor than in its previous incarnation...even more, reference the first time said plot device had been used on the show (why, even the name of that particular episode!) and still have it not lose any of its freshness and wit? Further, the two times invisiblity has been used on this show can be compared to yield even greater analytical results...

The last "Invisible Girl" we met was Marcie Ross, a shy girl who felt that nobody payed attention to her. In fact, her feelings of inadequacy, compounded with everybody's lack of attention to her and the magic of the Hellmouth led her to actually become invisible. Once invisible, she became mad with the power, and set out to take revenge on all the students who had harmed her in the past.

Unlike Marcie, Buffy's invisibility didn't come as a result of "natural" events, or at least natural in the Buffyverse, meaning that, with Marcie, she became invisible as a natural progression of events. Buffy's, however, came as a result of an accident. Her invisibility wasn't a defense mechanism that her body created, as with Marcie, and therefore, in a way it could be seen as a more "unfair" transformation. She didn't earn her "invisibility" brownie points herself, as Marcie had. But Buffy was no less susceptible to the power of being invisible. She seemed, for a while, mad with the power of being able to drive the Social Services worker crazy, and to make a pizza box float in the air; to even be able to freak out Anya! But Buffy had a much more, innocent, carefree approach to her invisibility than Marcie. Yes, like her, she relished the idea of being able to disappear, but she didn't use her power to harm others, but only to come out of herself, much like the singing and dancing did for her in OMWF.

Being invisible gave Buffy the power to give into her urges for Spike, without anyone else knowing. It is an unfair way to get around her addiction. Whereas Willow seems to be making a true effort to get over her addiction, Buffy is cheating. But then again, perhaps this is hinting at the fact that, as rowan earlier said, Buffy's is not an addiction, as she had thought, and that the parallel of the Willow/Buffy addiction arcs was a red herring. True, Buffy is still ashamed of her actions, and maybe that is what she really needs to get over, not the actions themselves.

The other main difference between Marcie and Buffy is that Marcie's invisiblity could go on indefinitely, perhaps further owing to the fact that it was "natural." Buffy's was unearned and artificial, and thus would end as badly (and fatally) as the outbursts of musical emotion inflicted on the citizens of Sunnydale by Sweet earlier this year. And what a great sign it is that Buffy no longer wants to fade away, or burst into flames! And, story arc-wise, how great is that we, the audience, now that Buffy is thinking about Spike's theory that she "came back wrong"--something some worried had been forgotten when it was not mentioned in "Wrecked."

On the whole, I adored this episode right down to its gooey, chocolatey center. I loved seeing Xander and Willow talk, really talk again. Yes, they did have a bit of an argument, but at least they were having a private conversation. It felt like old times and hinted that perhaps our Fellowship of the Ring, or the Key, as it were, will be reforged in the near future. And how much did I love seeing Willow doing legitimate hackage again? And how much did I laugh at Xander walking in on Spike's--um--exercises? And Xander's facial reactions to said exercises? And how much did I love Buffy's reaction when she realized that Jonathan actually had facial hair?

And, most of all, how much do I love Buffy's new hair? She looks downright, freakin' adorable! And what a great running gag that everybody said she was adorable, without having actually seen the haircut.

And on a more symbolic side, I loved the irony of Buffy cutting her hair in a way of transforming herself, and then literally being transformed. This new short-haired Buffy will perhaps grow to soon be Buffy 3.0--no longer shellshocked from being brought back to life, but returning to her old caring, emotional self. Of course, Buffy 3.0 may not be complete until this whole "came back wrong" thing is solved.

Oh, well, back to rerun hell before our answers will finally be found.

Oh, only one problem with the episode...Joss, Marti, and Co. can you please utilize Emma to greater effect? I don't think she's had a total of five minutes screen time in the last three episodes combined! Get your s*** together, people! We need more Anya! And Tara...please bring that nice Tara girl back! ;o)


P.S. That "magic weed" line almost killed me! Too funny for words!

P.P.S. And how about that "All work and no play" trick a la "the Shining"? Classic!

[> 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Spike Lover, 19:53:31 01/08/02 Tue

"I'm Going to tell you how it's going to be!
You're going to give your love to me.
Love that lasts more than one day.
Where Love is Love, and Not Fade Away."

Sung by Mick Jagger, Lyrics by Buddy Holly

"My love, baby, is like a cadillac.
I drive it (?) and you drive it back..."

Other thoughts on Gone...

PMSing, aren't they?

Boy, Dawn is angry at the world. Buffy is MOODY! 'Get out of here, Spike. I don't know where your lighter is because it is in my pocket."

I liked the part about Buffy cutting her hair when she was upset. Cutting hair can be a substitute for inflicting pain on yourself. When I was in Britian years ago, every time I had a fight with my friend, I went out and got my hair chopped off some more. When I eventually got back to the states, I had very short hair.

By the way, Rob, I don't like what Buffy did to the social worker. Also, they cut the sex scene in the clip that had both James & Sarah in the shot! *Also, those washboard abs of Spike's/James' were just - delicious.

And Xander should have picked up on what he didn't see at Spike's. (He wasn't looking for it, similarly when Spike walked in on the trio who had the diamond. Hey! How come Willow did not pick up on the stolen Diamond in the ray gun? There may be a theme here of missing what is directly under your nose (the invisible tree/fire hydrant/ etc).

[> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Grace, 22:23:49 01/08/02 Tue

Bravo to the naked Spike (James). Gotta love that and want to see lots more. On some level Xander is going to piece it together. One more clue and he will know about Buffy and Spike. I kinda wished that he would have figured it out this time....

Love that Spike kicked Buffy out. That was the power move and will make her want him more. Good for him.

The hair cutting was not my favorite--especially since Spike made the Goldie Locks comments and touched Buffy's hair. A little too obvious for me but I dig the new style. Buffy needed to be a little more hip.

I think the gang will be more accepting of Spike and Buffy than we think. (Angel and Riley are the one who are going to freak!) Anyway, can't wait to find out.

See ya in a few weeks.

[> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' (Spoilery for Gone) -- Isabel, 20:20:45 01/10/02 Thu

I expect that Xander will have an obvious 'clue' dropped under his nose, like, maybe catching them making out. Then he'll have a sort of retroactive stroke when he realizes just what he wasn't seeing.

BTW, just because Spike's hand was out of frame in the scene in the kitchen, that doesn't mean that it wasn't in plain sight to Xander when he walked into the room. Buffy's reaction to what he was doing showed that she liked what he was doing and Xander should have noticed that.

[> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- maddog, 07:02:51 01/09/02 Wed

You may not have liked how she treated the social worker...but would you rather have Buffy lose Dawn? I rest my case. :)

[> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- LoriAnn, 08:30:27 01/09/02 Wed

"You may not have liked how she treated the social worker...but would you rather have Buffy lose Dawn? I rest my case."

Would it be better for Buffy to lose Dawn or to become Willow, manipulating people to satisfy personal ends and, in this case, mostly for pleasure? Inviso-Buffy's hijinks with others parallels Willow's and Amy's manipulative actions at the Bronze: power to inflict self on others without accountability. Dawn's seen much more frightening things than an invisible sister. Why did she walk away? Spike wants Buffy anytime, anywhere, but he tossed her from the crypt. Why? No one wants an emotional relationship--sister or lover in these cases--with someone who isn't all there. Buffy was willing to "play" with Dawn and Spike, but in a way that negated responsibility. For her when invisible, "life is but a song," and we know that is undesirable and dangerous from OMTwF.When Buffy decides to become visible again--to live and take responsibility, probably in a limited way, for her life--I think we saw a real turning point, perhaps not THE turning point, but an important one nonetheless.

[> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- maddog, 08:41:48 01/09/02 Wed

How can you even compare Buffy's one time deception with Willow's constant magical abuse? They're not even in the same ballpark. Buffy's hijinx? You mean the whole 2 things she did while invisible? We're comparing apples and oranges here. And how can you say Buffy was "playing" with Dawn. It's not like she could just change back whenever she wanted. And Dawn certainly had the right to know Buffy's current situation. It's interesting that we end up with the same conclusion that she was in a better state when she was visible in the end(though you wrongly state that she became visible like she had the power to change back whenever she wanted) but disagree on the terms to get there. In my opinion Buffy needed that time of invisibility to get her to where she was at the end because her fear of death kicked in again. That only happened because her life was threatened because of the reaction to the invisibility ray.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Wynn, 09:34:59 01/09/02 Wed

I don't agree with Buffy's manipulation of the social worker. We all know that Buffy is trying her best to take care of Dawn; we know that Buffy and Dawn love each other very much. But from a muggle's POV (I know... muggle is a Harry Potter term, but it can be applied to the citizens of SunnyD that aren't clued in to the mystical and magical elements of their fair city), it appears as though Dawn is living in a not-so-healthy environment. I don't want to see Dawn removed from the Summers home, but I understand why the social worker would consider the option. Really the part of Buffy's hijinx with the social worker that I didn't care for was when Buffy as the cow mug instructed the woman to kill. It didn't sit well with me.Anyway, JM sans shirt is a wonderful thing, and I do believe that Xander will be the first to clue in to the Buffy/Spike relationship. Also, SMG's hair does look adorable and hip.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- maddog, 09:46:15 01/09/02 Wed

There's a post a little down where someone points out how poor of a job the social worker did at the house...she stayed just long enough to see a few odd things and had made her decision. She should have stayed longer...tried to talk to Buffy...instead she ran...almost scared.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Social Worker -- Brian, 09:57:07 01/09/02 Wed

It seemed to me that the Social Worker had already made up her mind before she entered the house. She had decided to take Dawn away. I think Buffy just fought fire with fire.Like slaying a vamp, she had to slay this "bad" destroyer of her home. And she did it in a very funny and very effective way, letting the social worker stake herself with her own words. I'm sure the next social worker they send to visit Buffy will be more fair-minded. One can only hope.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Social Worker -- Dedalus, 10:17:46 01/09/02 Wed

I just gotta say - I loved Buffy messing with the social worker. People have always used her job as Slayer as something to be used against her. I'm glad she was able to turn that around for once. And I think it was nothing like what Willow and Amy did, for obvious reasons.

I also loved the UFO pizza. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- robert, 10:11:00 01/09/02 Wed

"It didn't sit well with me."

Yes well, it didn't sit well with me that the social worker demonstrated that she was far more evil and dangerous than anything Buffy has previously faced. This social worker was the worst kind of civil servant--she was lazy, arrogant, and she wielded the power to destroy lives (innocent and otherwise). I think the ME gang were making a powerful point here.

The experience of having worked as a civil servant for nearly five years allowed me to see some of what can be found under rocks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Wynn, 12:05:32 01/09/02 Wed

I wasn't trying to say that the social worker was right in stating that she would take Dawn away. I also thought that Buffy's revenge was funny, except for the part about making the cow mug tell the worker to kill. I loved it when Buffy moved the mug aroung on the desk and filled Dawn's case file with the 'all work and no play...' But I thought that Buffy could have said anything other than ordering her to kill and still would have made the worker seem crazy. A talking mug is not usually an everyday occurance.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- RichardX1, 18:41:35 01/09/02 Wed

>>But I thought that Buffy could have said anything other than ordering her to kill and still would have made the worker seem crazy.<<

"Pee in the coffee pot... pee in the coffee pot..."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Wynn, 20:10:40 01/09/02 Wed

Exactly. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- dsf, 19:45:09 01/09/02 Wed

What's not-so-healthy about what the social worker saw? Buffy has a boyfriend who wears leather? Someone left a sage smudge stick from Whole Foods Supermarket lying around? There's a lesbian in the house? Having a friend stay there and (presumably) help with the rent is a sensible thing to do.

The only things I thought were legitimately worrisome were things the social worker already knew (Dawn's school problems) and stuff that came up during the nervous babbling by Buffy and Spike. Nervous babbling was something I thought an experienced social worker would have encountered before, from people who aren't necessarily bad guardians. It might have raised warning flags, but coming to conclusions was premature.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Where Love Is Love, and Not Fade Away' -- Wynn, 20:22:42 01/09/02 Wed

By not-so-healthy, I was referring to the social worker and her quick conclusions: the worker saw some weed/herb-like substance in a plastic bag, which Buffy then referred to as magic weed (which was hilarious), probably led the worker to assume that it was pot. We know what is actually going on in the Summers' home, but since the worker didn't take the time to do research, she assumed that not-so-healthy things were going on.

[> [> [> [> Wow, LoriAnn, excellent points! I'm liking this episode more already. -- Dyna, 09:44:39 01/09/02 Wed

LoriAnn, you're so right about Buffy's actions paralleling Willow and Amy's at the Bronze! I didn't even think of that. Another nice little symmetry between the friends to remind us how their struggles relate, even though they are in other ways very different.

And this, I thought, was a brilliant observation:

"Dawn's seen much more frightening things than an invisible sister. Why did she walk away? Spike wants Buffy anytime, anywhere, but he tossed her from the crypt. Why? No one wants an emotional relationship--sister or lover in these cases--with someone who isn't all there."

I can't expand on that--you put it perfectly!

[> [> [> At first I didn't like it.... -- Annoying1, 13:06:19 01/09/02 Wed

...the way she treated the social worker; I thought it smacked a little too much of cheap tricks reminiscent of everything from "Topper" to "Abbot and Costello meet the Invisible Man" to "Bewitched". I thought it was mean and petty and felt sorry for the social worker who will have her competence doubted for the rest of her career. Then I realized Buffy had a goal to accomplish. She got a second chance for herself and Dawn to be more prepared for the next social worker. She did no more to the social worker's record than the worker's summary judgment did to hers. The main difference, I guess, was that the worker is doubting her own sanity while Buffy knew herself to be a better person than the worker's report made her out to be. Unless the fact that Buffy was so ill-prepared for the interview gave Buffy grave doubts about her own competence as a caretaker. I really should think these things out before I start writing. Never mind.

[> [> [> Losing Dawn -- Spike Lover, 19:08:49 01/09/02 Wed

If it would help her to GROW UP, YES!

Doing what she did to the social worker did not help her to mature or to accept her new adult responsibilities. The ep was about Buffy trying to 'get away with -whatever- without being willing to face the consequences.' It may not be pretty or nice, but it is the truth. She wants to shag Spike as long as she does not have to 'fess up to it and face her friends' wrath. Having Dawn removed from her care would be a natural consequence of her inability to control her.

It might help Dawn too to be removed. Once she is in foster care, she might really try to be more obedient in order to get the priviledge of living w/ her sister.

[> [> [> [> Rolling Stones -- Spike Lover, 19:20:00 01/09/02 Wed

Wow. No one had any comment about the Rolling Stones song. I am disappointed. :(

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rolling Stones -- matching mole, 13:07:43 01/10/02 Thu

I would definitely have commented had I not been staying away trying to remain somewhat unspoiled until Saturday (the title of this message sounded safe). I always like allusions to songs in thread titles. I remember that there was one using Devo's line 'Are We Not Men?' (which is probably derived from somewhere else only I can't remember where) a few months ago which unfortunately was archived before I saw the relevant episode.

BTW - I believe that 'Not Fade Away' was originally done by Buddy Holly and that the Stones version was a cover.

[> [> The social worker was incompetent. -- bookworm, 08:04:21 01/09/02 Wed

Real, competent, professional social workers spend more than five minutes interviewing a family before they make up their minds or threaten to put them on probation. Doris should have sat down with Buffy and given her a chance to really explain what she'd seen. Doris should have offered Buffy access to services that would help her with Dawn such as family counseling or parenting classes. Her goal should be to keep the family of Buffy and Dawn together, not to put the kid in a foster home that would likely be a worse situation than the one she's in. She wasn't prepared to treat Buffy fairly. At least after what Buffy did, she'll have a chance to start over with another social worker.

[> [> [> Re: The social worker was incompetent. -- maddog, 08:29:16 01/09/02 Wed

I completely agree and I attribute it to Buffy's age. I think adults are very quick to pass judgement on young adults. Which is why I think my stance on how Buffy handled the social worker is different that many I've seen(who seem to the it was deplorable of Buffy to play with her like that).

[> [> [> that's what i've been thinking -- anom, 23:08:03 01/09/02 Wed

"Doris should have offered Buffy access to services that would help her with Dawn such as family counseling or parenting classes."

Plus career counseling & job placement. It's really stupid to just tell a 20-year-old whose mother died 4-5 months ago & is trying to provide for a sister nearly her own age, "Better shape up quick. I'll be keeping an eye on you" & threaten to take her sister away, without even offering her any help.

Was that the 1st time anyone from social svcs. had been to the house? Wouldn't they already have known Willow lived there?

[> [> [> [> Re: that's what i've been thinking -- maddog, 08:02:39 01/10/02 Thu

Well when exactly did Willow move in? Was that right after Joyce died or was it when Buffy died? Cause if it wasn't until Buffy died then it's possible the social worker came over initially after Joyce died and gave her like 6 or 8 months to settle in.

[> cute moment (still spoilers) -- liz, 23:40:10 01/08/02 Tue

I have to admit it was pretty hilarious having a lengthyfight scene when everyone was invisible.

[> [> Re: cute moment (still spoilers) -- JBone, 16:03:52 01/09/02 Wed

I have to admit it was pretty hilarious having a lengthy fight scene when everyone was invisible.

It irritated me to listen to a fight while looking at the walls. The whole scenario really felt cheap to me. I think that Gone, along with Wrecked and Smashed, have been the weakest episodes of the year, but when you think about the quality level of episodes so far, that isn't so bad.

[> [> [> Re: cute moment (still spoilers) -- maddog, 08:26:40 01/10/02 Thu

Are you kidding...I wouldn't call any of these weak. Gone wasn't exactly crucial to the storylines, but it did do it's purpose...it was light hearted and at the same time furthered Buffy and Willow's storylines(and slightly Dawn's), while Wrecked and Smashed set up some very intense personal issues for everyone. They're actually quite key episodes.

[> [> [> [> Re: cute moment (still spoilers) -- JBone, 15:34:17 01/11/02 Fri

I've just been underwhelmed by the last three episodes. It's probably because the addiction storylines are rather familiar.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: cute moment (still spoilers) -- Rochefort, 21:49:08 01/12/02 Sat

I ENTIRELY agree about WRECKED and the one before it. Weak and the addiction story lines are tired. But I sort of liked this one because it, unlike the others, managed to, if it was going to be weak, at least be light and ammusing and sweet. And I liked seeing Willow hack again. It was nostalgic.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rufus, 03:54:01 01/09/02 Wed

The last "Invisible Girl" we met was Marcie Ross, a shy girl who felt that nobody payed attention to her. In fact, her feelings of inadequacy, compounded with everybody's lack of attention to her and the magic of the Hellmouth led her to actually become invisible. Once invisible, she became mad with the power, and set out to take revenge on all the students who had harmed her in the past.

With that description and Xander asking Buffy if she was feeling ignored, I can only think about Dawn, who is in fact getting lost in all this action around Willow and Buffy. The social worker may have seemed like a bitch but she did have a point....it was for the best interests of Dawn. Buffy has all but forgotten Dawn in all her wish to be free from the nasties of life.Buffy became invisible, free to do what she felt like and she took care of business, first the social worker (which I'm not too happy about but it was funny), then her trip over to get a nooner from Spike. They were caught by Xander who must wonder just how flexible Spike's earlobes are. The best thing Spike did was to kick her out. Buffy was wanting her cake and to eat it too.......which was fun at first but ultimately an insult to the guy who (I know he's an evil demon)she treated like the thing she said he was in Smashed. Buffy was hiding from her life and the only sure way to do that is to be dead.I was relieved in the end that Buffy finally took her potential demise seriously. Gone is another step to Buffy rejoining the world of the living.

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 07:12:14 01/09/02 Wed

I completely disagree about Dawn...she seems right in the middle of what's going on...I mean, Willow almost killed her...can't get more main character than that. Just because she doesn't have a known problem right now doesn't mean that her big part of the storyline may not be on the horizon. And if you honestly think that taking Dawn from Buffy because it's "in her best interests" then you're fooling yourself. Dawn's comfortzone is that house and the people in it. If she couldn't see Buffy or Willow(though she's currently mad at them both) or Tara she'd be a reck. She's a teenager...they act out...they get mad over stupid stuff...I think it's obvious the best place for her is with Buffy. And like I said in a previous post, while the joke on the social worker was ethically wrong...do you really want Buffy to lose Dawn? Cause that's what would have happened had that woman finished her report. I don't think anyone wants to see that.

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Dedalus, 10:21:49 01/09/02 Wed

And furthermore, though the social worker can't possibly know this, we know that last season, Buffy literally died for her sister! Doesn't get much more motherly than that.

[> [> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rufus, 15:13:50 01/09/02 Wed

Yes Ded, Buffy died for her sister, the social worker couldn't have known that. If the social worker knew exactly what goes on around Buffy she would have taken Dawn away post haste, not understanding that it was the safest place to be(she is still the key). The social worker could only go on what she saw....a woman who didn't know what day it was.....failed to tell her about the woman living there, had a baggie of "magic weed"...had a boyfriend who lives in a "crypt...crib????" I think that she went easy on Buffy choosing to just put her on probation. Being in CPS isn't an easy job, you have a huge case load, you have to be able to sift through conflicting information to find what may or may not be the truth, all that and you can still end up with a severely abused or neglected or even dead child. I would have been asking where Dawn's injury came from. We know that Buffy has been the best thing for Dawn...too bad Dawn isn't feeling the love at this moment.

[> [> [> [> [> I agree- -- Spike Lover, 19:33:44 01/09/02 Wed

I am in favor of Buffy losing Dawn- for character development as well as plot twist.

I did think that the social worker acted a bit strange and that she did not seem thorough, but she did say that this was the second or third time they had had to reschedule so I suppose the woman had had enough.

But what bothers me is that even though all of you say that Buffy and Dawn love each other, we have already seen that Buffy has no idea how to control or discipline Dawn- and she has no real desire to do so. I am very concerned about Dawn's lying and stealing. I think she has the potential to run completely wild. Dawn needs to be motivated to behave.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree- -- maddog, 08:49:52 01/10/02 Thu

You know for character development I may not like it but now that you mention it, it would be interesting to see Dawn taken away as a plot twist. It's sad and dark and right down Joss's alley. And it would force Buffy to become an adult...she couldn't just fix things herself...would have to deal with the law like an adult. And in there lies character development(so strike the beginning of my first sentence).

You don't have to understand and/or be able to discipline someone to love them. Joyce loved Buffy but never was really able to control her. Giles loves Buffy but too was unable to control Buffy when she was really dead set on something. I think Buffy's lack of want is now slowly changing and that fear of dying concept at the end of Gone is the first step. Soon she'll realize she has to deal with life and that includes Dawn. I'm sure her lying and stealing will come out...it's too blatant not to.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dawn as a JD -- Dedalus, 13:27:16 01/10/02 Thu

Reading this, and everyone talking about Dawn having it in her to go wild ... I just got a strange image of Dawn tearing down mainstreet on a Harley, dressed completely in black leather, a cigarette pecariously dangling from her lips, occasionally tossing beer bottles in the direction of the Expresso pump, with someone playing "Born to Be Wild" in the background ...

Okay, you go back to your serious discussion again.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 08:34:25 01/10/02 Thu

While you're completely correct don't you think the social worker had an obligation to stay longer than 5 minutes instead of assuming things from the little time she was there? That's not doing a thorough job and a person in that position...someone with that type of power....needs to make it her duty to do that thorough job...something obviously not known by this social worker.

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rufus, 15:07:22 01/09/02 Wed

I don't remember saying that Dawn should be taken from Buffy but that she seemed more of an afterthought to Buffy, existing only when she needed help. The bit with the social worker was funny, but the woman was concerned for Dawns well-being, not just someone that wanted to give Buffy a hard time out of spite. If she was that bad, she would have apprehended Dawn right away, not gone back to her office to set up times to further observe the situation.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- neaux, 04:49:35 01/09/02 Wed

I might be stretching it here.. but I think Xander does know what is going on now..

if he didnt at the beginning of the show, I think he might have figured it out when he left Spike's crypt...

we shall have to wait and see... this was just one of those episodes that they smushed all together that left a lot out that needed to be explained (in better detail)I still loved it though.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rattletrap, 06:26:17 01/09/02 Wed

First and foremost: I loved this episode! I'd allowed myself to forget what I've been missing over the last 3 or 4 weeks.

Now for random comments:

- I'm not sure I agree with Rob's statement that Willow is trying to work through her addiction while Buffy is cheating. I think they both cheated this episode--Willow caught herself inadvertently using magic to float the book closer to her, I can dismiss that as a habit, but she made a conscious decision to use it to speed up the computer. That said, I more or less agree with rowan's argument that Buffy and Willow's situations do not really parallel each other, except in Buffy's mind.

- I was surprised Willow didn't have to resort to magic to escape from the stooges. Kudos to ME for not taking that where I expected it to go.

- As a couple of people have mentioned, I was a bit uncomfortable with Buffy's handling of the social worker (tho' I was still rolling on the floor laughing). ME has been pretty consistent over the last year at bringing up the Child Welfare Services question, so I can't help but think this only postpones it and it will come up again. If they're going to take Dawn away or something, it would be beneficial to do it during sweeps :-).

- On the subject of Dawn, I think the writers have done a really good job this season keeping her sort of marginalized, giving us a real sense of how she feels. A brief period away from Buffy really might be good for both of them.

- The invisibility ray was dancing right on the edge of my suspension of disbelief; I'm not sure how much farther they can push it and take me with them. On the up side, I like how Willow suggested that the diamond had mystical powers, that made the invisibility thing a bit easier to swallow.

- I kept thinking all the way through this episode that Buffy needed to go to Giles for advice, only to remember a few seconds later that he is in England.


All in all, this felt like a great middle-of-the-season turning episode (much like "Checkpoint" from last year). It moved the plot along, but still left several questions unanswered or issues unresolved. It also ended on a positive note, and we saw flashes of the old, happier Buffy that I think most of us really miss this season. We also saw some great friendly interaction between Xander, Willow and Buffy, so hopefully our Scooby Gang is moving beyond their isolation. I am already psyched for the next new episode, but I suppose I'll have to let the S1 DVD's tide me over for a couple of weeks.

Final thought: Buffy really does look adorable with short hair, and Willow's hair looks better than it has for a while.

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 07:20:23 01/09/02 Wed

To watch this show is to have massive amounts of suspension of disbelief...what makes the invisibility ray and more unbelievable than a ressurection spell or a God in human form or a demon entering a computer through a scanner?

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- robert, 10:30:46 01/09/02 Wed

"- The invisibility ray was dancing right on the edge of my suspension of disbelief; I'm not sure how much farther they can push it and take me with them. On the up side, I like how Willow suggested that the diamond had mystical powers, that made the invisibility thing a bit easier to swallow."

You kidding of course, aren't you?

1. It was explicitly stated that the invisibility ray was based upon magic.

2. The theme of season five was the blending of magic and technology.

3. In season one, Joss introduced us to the concept of invisibility, based upon some quantum mechanical expanation, no less.

If the invisibility ray presents a problem for your disbelief suspension circuit, how did you make it this far without a serious meltdown?

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Rattletrap, 15:28:53 01/09/02 Wed

"You kidding of course, aren't you?"

Not really. I accept all of your rebuttal points as correct on an intellectual level, but there has been something about all of the troika's inventions up to this point that has just vaguely bugged me in a way I can't put my finger on. All that said, I still loved last night's episode and that was intended as a fairly mild criticism.

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- RichardX1, 19:07:57 01/09/02 Wed

>>she made a conscious decision to use it to speed up the computer.<<

I thought her intent was to magically download the info directly into her brain like she did earlier in the season. It looked to me like the normal download completed just before she could start with the magic.

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 09:10:32 01/10/02 Thu

We figured out elsewhere in this that she didn't use magic...it was my incorrect assumption...and the script says that she never started, only thought about it.

[> [> ya think Willow would never have intentionally "cheated" ... -- yuri, 20:50:57 01/09/02 Wed

had Xander not assumed the invisibility was her fault? "Well if you already think I've fallen of the wagon..." (not exact quote, I know.)

[> [> [> Re: ya think Willow would never have intentionally "cheated" ... -- maddog, 09:24:39 01/10/02 Thu

Well, for one, she didn't intentionally cheat...we've cleared that up...but no, I don't think Xander had anything to do with it...as she proved with the book on the table she's been using magic for the everday stuff for so long that it's second nature for her to "cheat" that way...this is just an example of her struggle to do the tough, tiring leg work.

[> [> [> [> but -- yuri, 16:46:04 01/10/02 Thu

I think her instinct to move the book on the table - one she seemed somewhat disgusted and/or suprised by, was much different than her decision to magic the computer. (Yeah, sorry i didn't realize at first, she didn't actually do it, but I personally believe she would have) You could see the thoughts run through her head and solidify, whereas with the book it was unconcious. I can see how she'd feel like Xander's questioning (though not out of line for him, necessarily) almost gave her permission.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Kimberly, 06:26:45 01/09/02 Wed

My random thoughts on the episode.

First, I would disagree that she didn't use her power of invisibility to hurt others: she was certainly going after that social worker (who probably deserved it, at least somewhat). To me, all of the things she was doing while invisible, until she heard Xander's message, were adolescent. And I'm using that word carefully. Buffy was called to Slayerdom at fifteen and had to "grow up" and concern herself with the welfare of innocents. However, the evidence we have implies that, if she had continued as she was, she probably would have gone through some very normal, if not particularly intelligent, acting out. Becoming invisible allowed her to revert and act out some of those things. It was also the first time she's had FUN since her resurrection, and that has been something she's sorely needed.

Although the metaphor is much heavier than it needs to be, I'm impressed with how they're handling Willow's magic recovery. Right down to the slipping, although the one time in this episode was more like pouring the drink than actually falling off the wagon. At least to me.

When is Buffy, and everyone else, going to start seeing Dawn's needs? Buffy currently doesn't seem to be able to handle more than one problem at a time: she's so busy helping Willow that she's ignoring Dawn's very legitimate needs. From Dawn's point of view, it's bad enough that Willow put her in danger and got her arm broken, but now she has to give up things she likes to help Will through her addiction. It wouldn't shock me to see Dawn start putting magic in Willow's way to hurt her, either by forcing her to fall off the wagon or to force her to resist.

Good for Spike on throwing Buffy out. He's making it clear to her, whenever she thinks about it, that he loves her, not just lusts after her. And after her starting something that most guys will do just about anything for? Wonderful.

OK, Buffy has now unfrozen her emotions. She's now feeling the "up" emotions and she wants to live. Now, if she can just unfreeze her brains, her ability to think, she'll be able to get her life just where she wants it.

What's gone? Refusing to deal with the reality of life.

Sorry for the randomness and incoherency. That's the best I can do for now.

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 07:34:06 01/09/02 Wed

I want to expand on what you're saying on Willow. I think people are too quick to say she's already slipped back...in fact, I'll go as far as to say I didn't have a problem with anything she did in this episode. Because to me, the time she stopped herself and the "help" with the computer were different situations. The whole reason Tara got initially mad at Willow is that she was using powers that were supposed to be restrained to Scoobie stuff for the everyday things(like getting a book)...but notice she stopped herself there. However....when she used it for speeding up the computer she was using it "in the line of duty". She was using it to help and not for the everyday event. To me that's the smart use of her magic...what it was originally intended for. So I have no problem with that.

I don't see Buffy in this case as ignoring Dawn's needs as much as her reasoning could be two-fold(and if I'm wrong here cause I missed the first 30 seconds of the show this week...damn phone rang). First she's obviously helping Willow keep things away...out of sight out of mind sorta. But I also see this as Buffy protecting Dawn from not only instigating Willow, but falling into the same trap Willow has. Inexperience and lack of maturity mixed with magic is bad. I mean, Dawn's already pulled a stunt or two(or have we all forgotten she tried to ressurect Joyce) that were done with the best of intentions but were not well thought out. Getting back to the original point though I do see Buffy slipping in her motherly duties, just not as far as everyone else seems to think.

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Grace, 08:39:54 01/09/02 Wed

Did she speed up the computer? I thought she didn't and the computer completed the search just in the nick of time.

[> [> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 08:44:35 01/09/02 Wed

I don't have it on tape to review it but it looked like she put up her finger and moved it and then all of a sudden the search unjammed...others are saying it too so I just thought i was right.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Wisewoman, 09:20:26 01/09/02 Wed

My impression was that she was about to influence the search by magic when it suddenly completed itself.

I think we need to see what the shooting script says on the subject.

[> [> [> [> [> [> According to Wildfeed on the Trollup Board she didn't do it, just thought about it -- maddog, 09:41:02 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It looked to me like she was trying to hide the screen from others -- Kimberly, 11:06:34 01/09/02 Wed

It also appeared to me that she was in a public place, rather than in the Summers' home, so she was nervous/hiding what she was doing from others.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Watched it 3 times; I still think Willow was going to do magic, but the search ended before she did. -- Rob, 11:16:05 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Watched it 3 times; I still think Willow was going to do magic, but the search ended before she did. -- Rob, 11:16:20 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Script says she didn't do it, trust me, I checked -- maddog, 09:29:58 01/10/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Wildfeed is just an advance summary by a viewer, so it's just as unreliable as we are! -- Dyna, 12:20:26 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> oh...sorry, thought it was script related somehow...so where's the damn script then? :) -- maddog, 09:34:25 01/10/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Brian, 14:33:53 01/09/02 Wed

I'll agree with Grace. I thought she was going to use magic, but the computer finished in time.

[> [> [> [> -That's what I thought too. (NT) -- Darby, 10:25:48 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: -That's what I thought too. (NT) -- DEN, 12:02:43 01/09/02 Wed

And tht wouldn't be too far off real life, where we're often saved from ourselves by outside circumstances!

[> [> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- robert, 13:01:08 01/09/02 Wed

"However....when she used it for speeding up the computer she was using it "in the line of duty". "

I will go back and re-watch the episode tonight to verify it, but I do not believe that Willow sped up the computer. Rather, she was sorely tempted to do so, because it was taking so long. In fact, with the exception where she started lifting the book, I don't believe she used any magic this episode.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Leeann, 06:38:20 01/09/02 Wed

I didn't like most of Gone but I put the blame on writer/director David Fury's shoulders. Fury is the writer that makes Spike do gross and embarrassing things like stealing Buffy's sweater to fondle and sniff or chaining up Buffy and threatening to let Dru kill her unless she admits to caring for him. (Does that work with you? -JM) All David Fury. Now he makes Spike ...ahh...thrust...at what appears to be an empty bed, in front of Xander. Does Fury have it in for JM or is he channeling the writers of I Love Lucy/Debbie Does Dallas. To me most of the episode seemed completely out of the story arch and didn't make sense. Being invisible would not have made Buffy run to Spike unless her brains were turning to pudding. She's way too stubborn for that. And why didn't she turn to pudding? The traffic cone was made invisible at the same time and it all but disintegrated. And as whipped as Spike is he wouldn't have sent her away unless she got a lot more bitchy and probably not then. A little invisibility and Buffy jokes about "coming back wrong", scares strangers in the park, and steals a vehicle for fun? Our Buffy? Her actions against the social worker were also nasty and out of character. The woman was just doing her job. Buffy was just wrong in this whole episode. (Cause she came back wrong?) Starting with that icky wig and unattractive hair cut.

Hurrah for NakkedSpike, naked all the way down to the hip bones (faint). Never too much of that but can we have it part of the story instead of gratuitous? The cigarette lighter thing was okay. But the rest of the episode was just annoying in a why-are-they-doing-this kind of way.

Maybe it's just me and Gone was a wonderful episode but I wish Joss would send David Fury to Angel and leave him there.

Does anyone else feel Buffy is disappearing? We've had dreamBuffy, Buffybot, major affective disorder Buffy, dead Buffy and now invisible Buffy. What comes next, not-with-the-show-anymore Buffy?

P.S. Who else noticed the blue hands in the promo they ran in the middle of the episode?

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 07:58:19 01/09/02 Wed

hehe, I guess I have a reply for everyone today. I completely disagree that it wasn't in the story arch...in fact, the only story it didn't further was Anya and Xander. It dealt with Buffy/Spike's continued sexual encounters(and her shame of them along with his resentment for that), Dawn feeling underappreciated, Willow's magic issue, and even exposed the Troika as her "archnemesises". :)

I think the invisibility was the perfect way for Buffy to run to Spike like we all know she wants to, without having to face the others in the process. She may say she's disgusted with Spike but he's the one making her feel alive right now...and it's finally spilling over into her actually wanting to be alive. What I think your missing is the character development...people don't stay the same way all the time. While Buffy's giving in to wanting Spike, he took this last situation and got even madder than he did in OMWF(where he told her to "let him rest in peace") and finally told her to get out. To me that's not out of character, it's character development...we had to know, knowing prideful Spike is that he'd eventually get ticked off with sneaking around and denial.

Did we watch the same episode? She was "nasty" to that woman? No, she did what she had to to keep Dawn. Sure, the woman was just doing her job. And Buffy was just doing what she had to too. While ethically it's wrong, Buffy's not exactly and angel here and never has been. So I don't see it as out of character.

Don't you think the gratuitous nature is there for a purpose? These two have turned casual sex into a sport. That is gratuitous and if they showed it to us in any other way it wouldn't have the same effect on the storyline as it does.

As for Fury...everything he's done so far that you've criticized were necessary plot points. Spike stealing Buffy's clothing to smell her was showing us just how obsessed he was getting with her...he's a vampire...and they don't do things the way we do...they're more extreme. The same reasoning fits his chaining up her and Dru...and this time it involved his old love which made it even more extreme because now he was willing to admit it in front of Dru to the point of possibly staking her. Maybe you're missing the excentricity of the vampires in this show but all the ones they gave personalities to were crazy in there own freaky way.

[> [> [> Gotta say, I agree with Leeann -- Wisewoman, 09:32:08 01/09/02 Wed

I don't think a dislike of Fury episodes has anything to do with missing the eccentricity of vamps. It has to do with Fury's continued intransigence on the subject of Spike's potential for redemption.

There were a whole passle of big and small inconsistencies in the this episode that conceivably were the result of Fury's directing debut, as well. Like Buffy casually tossing Spike's lighter into the box with the magic memorabilia and then having it turn up in the pocket of her jeans. Like Spike throwing his blanket on the floor inside the kitchen door and then having to ask her for it back from the living room chair. Like the angle on the shot of the back door to the kitchen when Dawn comes in, mere seconds after invisi-Buffy, is completely screwed. I could go on, but the point is I love this show, and yeah, I liked the ep, and I laughed a lot and thought JM was hot, what with the "groin cleavage" and all, but that doesn't mean that every single ep is perfect. I think we have to maintain some objectivity here. ;o)

[> [> [> [> Re: Gotta say, I agree with Leeann -- maddog, 09:54:05 01/09/02 Wed

Oh, sure, what you're talking about is continuity problems that I'm sure Fury missed...but Leann was talking about character inconsistancies. Why people acted one way last week and a different way this week. Those are different topics.

[> [> [> [> [> I guess what I'm saying is... -- WW, 10:00:57 01/09/02 Wed

that the continuity problems are just a reflection of the bigger issues I have with Fury. I think he's a bit out-of-step with the other writers of the show, and it's reflected in his take on the characters in major ways, and with technical inconsistencies in minor ways.

To me, the biggest gaffe of the night was Buffy making Doris' coffee mug tell her to "kill." I don't have an issue with the unrealistic way in which the social worker was portrayed; it advanced the plot, so I can suspend disbelief. And so does making Doris appear to be having a breakdown. But Buffy, of all people, making a pseudo-subconcious suggestion that an innocent stranger should start killing those around her? Buffy advocating "going postal?" Come on. Give your head a shake, DF. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> You don't see that as Buffy acting out...like a child? That's what I got out of it -- maddog, 10:18:58 01/09/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> for those of us in the Anti-redemptionista camp... -- squireboy, 10:46:21 01/09/02 Wed

...Fury is our only lifeline. Thank Joss for Fury, for a light-hearted episode that reached back to the roots of the show. This ep mined its own mythology (Marcie, Willow hacking, D'Hoffryn, OMWF whistling references) with humour, poked fun at Spuffyism, toyed with the Felicity/Samson curse (successfully, cute 'do on SMG), actually integrated the Scoobies into the plot, advanced the storyline (Nerd troika, Willow's struggles, wedding plans) and most importantly, turned the corner with Buffy's realization that she wanted to live and get on with life. Maybe she (and we :) will be able to do so now.

I also think that messing with the social worker is entirely consistent with the tradition of the show. Real life authority figures in the buffyverse just don't "get it". They usually over-react and overstep their bounds (the social worker for me was exactly like Snyder, incompetent and out of line --"that's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten") and are mocked and worked around. I can just imagine Joss' tax returns. :)(a poster who works in the CA child services tore apart the social worker's visit over on the bronzebeta)

For me, I rate the ep about an 8. Not a classic, but certainly fun and worthwhile. I want more Whedon, but I'd like more Fury, if this is the sort of stuff we are going to get.



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, someone finally defends the beating Fury's been taking -- maddog, 09:58:50 01/10/02 Thu

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Sebastian, 08:46:43 01/09/02 Wed

a few points.

i watched 'gone' twice last night (once during its original airing, and than late at night) to get a feel for the show.

first off all, i felt even though the subject matter was dark (child neglect, sexual obsession, magic addiction) it took the show back to a more lighter note that has been lacking since the middle of season 5. so i felt it was a relief to handle these issues in a lighter manner. even the lighting and scenery reflected the difference in tone.

i also felt that 'gone' addressed the issues of the characters' arcs in a very believable manner.

not only was buffy 'gone', but her wish to die is gone as well. but it also represented a loss of inhibitions. her INHIBITIONS were gone as well.

it has been commented that buffy seemed out of character. But that was the entire point. the rules buffy have had to live by were 'gone'.

buffy terrorized a social worker, freaked out innocent bystanders, had non-guilty sex with spike, and shrugged off her maternal/sisterly duties.

i think her inhibitions had to go away in order for her to take a step toward recovery.

since buffy had been brought back, she has had to deal with an enormous burden of responsibility - not to mention being torn out of a heavenly dimension. she's often commented that she no longer felt alive - that she felt dead inside. that's fairly tough baggage for even a slayer to handle.

it was only when those duties were (albeit temporarily) gone was buffy able to realize that she in away NEEDS that baggage in her life - because it validates her as a LIVING person.

btw, i got the impression that willow had NOT used magic on the computer. that she was going to, but the search stopped before she could 'power up'. she seemed more relieved rather than guilty immediately following the search results, and i think they would have shown her reaction to be a tad shadier if that had been the case.

someone also posted they think xander suspects what was going on with spike and invisi-buffy and i think the poster may be right. although xander can be judgmental at times - he usually waits to make an accusation until he has proof right in front of him. So i think he wanted to hope buffy was not there , but i think he wonders - especially in light of him walking in on them during the kitchen exchange. you would have to be fool NOT to notice that buffy was not to sense the sexual tension right when xander walked in.

just my thoughts.

- S

[> [> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- maddog, 09:03:50 01/09/02 Wed

Exactly, last night was very light, while furthering storylines...anything involving the Troika is going to be light humor until one of them decides to get nasty(and even that seems like a long shot).

"it was only when those duties were (albeit temporarily) gone was buffy able to realize that she in away NEEDS that baggage in her life - because it validates her as a LIVING person."

I like that comment...just had to say that...very true.

Like I said in a previous post, I only watched it once but I thought her finger moved right before it finished the search...but I could be wrong...still doesn't change my feelings as I defend her use of magic in that case considering it was for Scoobie research and not the everday stuff or extracurricular affairs(see Rack). If she didn't do it then good for her for holding off long enough for the internet to finish it's work.

[> [> Xander in denial -- DEN, 09:56:00 01/09/02 Wed

Xander's obtuseness, to a point on the edge of cognitive dissonance, might also be explained by his background in an alcoholic/abusive family. Such systems are often based upon overt denial of the crassly obvious, eg "Dad's not passed-out drunk again; he's just having a nap on the floor!"

[> [> [> Re: Xander in denial -- Rattletrap, 15:24:40 01/09/02 Wed

Good point DEN. I think Xander will have to catch Spike and visible Buffy in the act before he puts it all together. As it stands right now, he has all the information in front of him, but he doesn't consider Buffy+Spike a possible answer to the question. He _knows_ Buffy would never do anything that stupid, so he doesn't even consider it as a possibility.

[> Candles bad, darkness pretty (spoilers, of course!) -- skeeve, 08:54:36

01/09/02 Wed

Getting rid of the candles might not have been such a good idea. The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 quotes JMS: "Candles are, I think, wonderfully emblematic of life, and of being a single ray of light, or hope, in a dark place." There is also the matter of light during power outages.

Is it obvious that Willow "relapsed" on the computer? It's clear that she thought about it. My recollection is that the dialog box said eighty something percent complete before we even saw it.

Even if Xander didn't recognize Buffy's voice, why didn't he ask who was that invisible squealing woman under Spike? Spike's bending earlobes might have also given him a clue.If Xander did realize what was going on, he certainly should have given Buffy the message. It might even have been a good idea to give the message to Spike.

Buffy had no *ethical* duty to the unsocial worker, only those duties she owed to the general public. Ethical duties derive from special relationships, e.g. (not i.e.) parent/child and lawyer/client. Ethical duties are assymetric.

[> [> The "ethical duties" comment makes sense...not that I ever had a problem with what she did! -- maddog, 09:07:24 01/09/02 Wed

[> Situation with the Social worker -- Rufus, 15:45:05 01/09/02 Wed

I've seen many people say that the social worker was wrong, not doing her job right, ect. What interests me is the fact that even with Buffy's "going through the Motions phase" we are more forgiving of who we know the most about, instead of the stranger who has come to look at the living situation for Dawn. Dawn has been ripping off anything that isn't nailed down, all in an effort to get some sort of attention. She has only been noticed when she has gotten into trouble. I'm not saying that Buffy has been a bad person, but a troubled one who has not been happy to be back here. What I suspected has come true, the more she interacts with life the more involved and caring Buffy has become. To cut the Social worker some slack we have to consider how much the woman knows....she only saw a young woman who appeared to be partying enough to forget what day it is. She also had a baggie of unidentified weed, and a big bad boyfriend. The SW could only go on the bit that she saw. Sure she could have stuck around but I think she figured that Buffy was in no shape to answer any questions. She also gave her a break in not having Dawn taken from the home right away. Her opinion was that Buffy should be on probation to make sure that Dawn was in the proper surroundings. Plus the show only has so much time to deal with what a CPS worker has to do by the book. If Buffy had been visited on a day when she had her wits about her she would have done fine, but the box of goodies and her evasive nature was just enough to make anyone a bit suspicious about her habits. My feeling is that the time allowed for us to get to know the character of the SW isn't enough to make a proper judgement on her personally or professionally.

[> [> We saw enough of her to know she jumps to conclusions. -- bookworm, 21:27:22 01/09/02 Wed

And that's unprofessional. Buffy told her the bag was filled with herbs. I'm sure Doris has seen stranger things in her career and could probably differentiate between the smell of pot and sage. Why not sniff the bag? If Buffy has a boyfriend and a gay friend who sometimes sleeps over, what of it? If Doris was concerned, she could have stayed to observe the situation further or to talk with Buffy. She doesn't have cause to remove Dawn from the household on the basis of a five minute home visit, not when Dawn doesn't appear to be in immediate danger. Has she interviewed Dawn? She made an assumption based on Buffy's age, which isn't legally acceptable. For that matter, why is Social Services even investigating this? Who called Doris in? It doesn't look to me like Dawn is neglected, particularly in comparison with the hundreds of other kids on the case rolls. She has a roof over her head, food on the table, someone to drive her to school, someone in the house with her at night. She may be unhappy, feel emotionally neglected, and be skipping class and getting poor grades, but plenty of kids in intact families are in that situation without someone calling Social Services. Just where was Social Services when Buffy cut class and ran away from Joyce? In "Smashed," Buffy had every reason to believe Willow would be at home with Dawn. Even if she hadn't been, it's not like she's leaving a 4-year-old by herself. No one seems to be giving Buffy any kind of break here, which is irritating. Where is the offer of family counseling and parenting classes and financial management counseling to help Buffy and Dawn? Instead, the social worker threatens probation and says Buffy's on the way to losing guardianship. Of course Buffy is troubled and can be self-centered, but she really hasn't done that terrible a job. If she were really neglectful she wouldn't look for Dawn when it's Tuesday and she's in trouble. Someone's always there to get Dawn out of a scrape.

[> [> [> Wait a minute here..... -- Rufus, 21:42:15 01/09/02 Wed

I don't remember the SW say that she was going to remove Dawn...she said that she was going to suggest Buffy be put on probation and watched more closely.Sure you can open the baggie and take a sniff and know if it's dope or not.....but how many people know much about drugs? The SW seemed less interested in what was in the baggie and what the truth was from Buffy. She said that she lived alone, then Willow speaks up, then she is living with a woman, there is a "boyfriend" who lives in a "crypt or is that crib".....Buffy was acting in a suspicious manner, enough for someone like me to want to get a closer family study done to make sure that the living situation was best for the child my file was on. It isn't about Buffy to the SW but about the best interests of Dawn. She went back to her office to report suspicions, not to take Dawn away from Buffy.....I think she acted sensibly without getting carried away. She may not seem to be the nicest person, but I think she had her heart in the right place....can you imagine if she knew the real truth about what Dawn started as? You ask the same question I do about who brought the state into the situation and my guess is the school(considering Dawns falling grades and skipping school).

[> [> [> [> I still say she needed to stay longer. -- bookworm, 06:41:11 01/10/02 Thu

Five minutes wasn't long enough for her to get a clear enough impression. I didn't find her actions sensible or professional. The best interests of the child -- Dawn -- would be to stay with a blood relative, perhaps enrollment in the support programs that Social Services could offer them, not to be placed in a foster home or a group home. Doris is a social worker. She does know about drugs. She's encountered them on the job and has studied about them in college. She should also have received training in alternate lifestyles. Particularly in California, she would know that herbs are used in the religious rituals of some nature-based religions and wouldn't automatically dismiss Buffy's assurance that the bag wasn't pot. She would be relatively tolerant of lesbian Willow or should be. Spike's appearance shouldn't necessarily phase her. He looks like the Big Bad, but it doesn't mean he is. Those things all may warrant a closer look, but you can't do that in a five minute visit. It isn't even reason enough to tell Buffy she's on probation. The first step for Doris really should have been to interview Dawn at school. Then she should have set up an hour-long interview with Buffy at home, during which she could have explained her concerns and offered Buffy services. I don't believe a social worker is going to go out of her way to put a kid like Dawn in foster care when there are undoubtedly many kids on her case load who are in far worse shape.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I still say she needed to stay longer. -- Rufus, 11:11:41 01/10/02 Thu

I can think of one thing....edited for time. The show is only 43 minutes or so and to go too indepth with the visit of the SW would take away from the rest of the show. They just don't have the time to get into everything and I'm sure the first visit of the SW wasn't high on the priority list of things to spend the majority of time with.

[> [> [> [> [> [> What they showed was a visit by an arrogant, lazy, incompetent social worker -- bookworm, 12:05:50 01/10/02 Thu

Who was going to screw up Dawn's life without giving Buffy a chance to explain anything. For whatever reason, the show showed that she did spend only five minutes visiting the home and jumped to a bunch of conclusions. That woman was fair game for Buffy and I don't blame her for messing with her head to keep Dawn. Given Doris's bias, there was every chance Dawn would have been removed from the home.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What they showed was a visit by an arrogant, lazy, incompetent social worker -- Rufus, 13:12:02 01/10/02 Thu

Though I don't think that Dawn should be removed from Buffy's care, I think the SW was fair considering the fact she could have rushed into court and gotten Dawn yanked from the house with no further interviews or chances. You have an opinion of Doris that I don't share so we can agree to disagree.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What they showed was a visit by an arrogant, lazy, incompetent social worker -- maddog, 07:35:44 01/11/02 Fri

I don't doubt anyone disagrees with you on that point...she certainly could have taken her from Buffy on the spot...but would she really have been doing her job if she decided on such a short visit? I think that's where our point seems to get missed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What they showed was a visit by an arrogant, lazy, incompetent social worker -- Rufus, 10:04:35 01/11/02 Fri

Read above where I said I didn't think Dawn should be taken out of the home. I'm only making the point that compared to the other types of threat out there the SW was just a minor one. I did think that while she came off as unsympathetic, she also didn't get so carried away as to have Dawn apprehended immediately. It's impossible in shows such as Buffy to properly show how different proffessions work without taking away from more important story points in the show. I don't think Doris was meant to be a sympathetic character so Buffy's subsequent actions don't look too harsh. In short, Doris is hardly the Big Bad of the show, just a minor annoyance.

[> [> [> Who called Social Services -- Arya Stark, 02:28:32 01/10/02 Thu

"For that matter, why is Social Services even investigating this? Who called Doris in? It doesn't look to me like Dawn is neglected, particularly in comparison with the hundreds of other kids on the case rolls. She has a roof over her head, food on the table, someone to drive her to school, someone in the house with her at night."

I assume that this is the result of Dawn's trip to the ER with a broken arm.

[> [> [> [> Re: Who called Social Services -- Spike Lover, 15:41:23 01/12/02 Sat

I think the initial threat came from the school last season. Remember when they told Buffy that if she could not make Dawn come to school, then they would have Dawn "taken away" from her. Or so Buffy told Dawn.

[> [> Re: Situation with the Social worker -- maddog, 10:25:07 01/10/02 Thu

Well see you hit the nail on the head...she "figured" that Buffy was in no shape to answer questions. That's just it...she assumed instead of taking the time to like her job should be. As for people being more forgiving of Buffy...are you surprised by this fact? Besides, many have been laying into her for weeks about her decisions...I think the light heartedness of this episode calmed many down. Time constraints is a good point but even had they given her more time I'll bet they still wouldn't have painted her in a good light...as someone pointed out somewhere above the adults(minus Giles and Jenny) on this show tend to be protrayed as disruptive and mean(even Joyce was yelling at Buffy constantly until she found out Buffy was a slayer(and even then sometimes she slipped back into being a class A jerk to Buffy). That pattern may have to change as this group becomes one of them.

[> Re: Going...Going...Heh, heh...My Review of "Gone" (spoilers, of course!) -- Valhalla, 17:17:28 01/09/02 Wed

When I saw that the description for this week's episode included an 'invisibility ray', I had a moment of lapsed faith and thought, 'oh, how dorky' (and not in a good way). But when I saw the actual show, I thought the use of invisibility was 1) brillant; and 2) a welcome harkening back to the more metaphoric days. On brilliance: did you notice when they panned to a big, empty space to show Buffy's reaction? That was fabulous. On metaphor -- one of the things that I haven't enjoyed about Buffy recently is that as she's becoming an adult, she's dealing with more and more real, rather than metaphoric, real-life adult problems.Her mom dies, she's broke, she can't keep a job, she has a mortgage, she has to deal with an adolescent girl in a parent role, the social worker, etc. All of this is just plain old life stuff. If I want to see someone worrying about their bills, I can look in the mirror. Actually, I'll take her mom dying out of the list -- that episode was probably one of the best things I've seen on TV about how people deal with death. But the other stuff! The reason I started watching Buffy was because she had common teen problems cloaked in supernatural challenges. It gives you something to think (infrequent on tv) about rather than just observe a bunch of problems (all too common).Her invisibility was a welcome skip back to more metaphorical days. It let her escape the big stuff for a while but also moved her along the recovery from being dead, at least a bit. Not that the show has entirely lost its supernatural wrappings (Willow and magic, losing Tara), but for a while it was getting kind of skimpy. The Anya-Zander storyline has been veering in and out of normal (banal?) problems, too. Granted, Buffy's invisibility isn't the only good supernatural metaphor this season (coming back from the dead is obviously a whopper), but I'm hoping the invisibility storyline is going back to the good, metaphorical stuff.

Reflections on 6th season arc -- Liz, 23:23:06 01/08/02 Tue

I was thinking about the season 6 story arc and I came up with some interesting and possibly disturbing things. I'm going to post this to the board for All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and also to The Bronze because I've heard that the writers occasionally read it. I would really like to see what the writers think of this. Not that I expect feedback. I would just like them to think about it.

This doesn't really have spoilers, though I have seen the episodes up through "Gone."

Joss had labeled this season the "Oh, Grow Up" season. I found this to be an odd wording--it sounded impatient and fed up. For a show that has lovingly developed its characters in great detail, this season seems harsh. The characters' problems and devastating emotions are treated with a kind of impatience.

If you disagree, then I can't expand on that. I'm not sure how else to say it. But something is missing this season. It's not that Buffy is darker this season--I was actualy looking forward to seeing the show deal with that darkness. Buffy was/is hovering above complete despair. I wanted to see her path through it. I wanted to see this show tackle that. But I'm not seeing it. I see the character doing things, I see her making choices and overcoming problems. But I don't see her path. I don't see her emotion.

What's missing is the demons. In Buffy the demons have always been problems as metaphor or emotions made manifest. The extreme was expressable through the supernatural. "Everything is life or death when you're a sixteen-year-old girl" was how Joyce said it back in season 1. You can take the show completely as metaphor where the demons are the problems and powerful emotions during adolesence. The adults don't see the demons at all and are useless in the battle against them.

So what happens when Buffy grows up? The Big Bad this season is not an overwhelmingly powerful demon, but a trio of idiots who are just annoying her. Is that what problems are to an adult? Not the end of the world, but just an annoyance? They can screw with your life, they can even endanger your life, but in the end they are not frightening. They are not apocalypic demons. That kind of melodrama is for adolesence. The people who are behaving like adolescents are the trio of bad guys. They're the ones who are pretending they live in a comic book. And the bent of the show is this: what losers.

The losers used to be the heros. I remember Joss saying in an interview that this was a show about losers, for losers. Apologies if you find that offensive--I found it delightful. It's nice to have a show about people who are outside the norm. It's nice to have a show that speaks in metaphor and mythology. But _Buffy_ seems to be growing up and losing these things. If demons are the angst and melodrama of adolesence, then _Buffy_ might be about to exorcise itself.

And if that's so, then 1) what in hell will happen to the show? and 2) is that even a good idea? The magic is starting to fade from that world. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, maybe the show is not headed off in the direction I'm seeing. I certainly have no idea what's going to happen next. But look at Willow. Magic started as an awakening for her. It was about becoming oneself. Then it became a metaphor for sex, and lesbianism, but it was still about life and joy and a kind of healthy fulfillment. But magic is dangerous. It can be dark. She took it too far and was seduced by it and it led to problems. All of that is fine--fascinating, actually. But then it turned into a flat metaphor for drugs and now she is to give it up entirely. No more magic. And it's not just drugs. Magic was the easy way--now she is to be an adult and do things the real way. Of course these metaphors can be combined, but I think the latter has some disturbing implications. Are we right back to Willow's mom in "Gingerbread" saying, "Oh, well, identification with mythical icons is perfectly typical of your age group. It's a classic adolesent reponse to the pressures of incipient adulthood." That's the adult view of magic and monsters. What happens if the characters become adults?

In this light it's very interesting that Giles is gone. That was kind of coincidence--Tony just wanted to move back to England. They didn't want to lose him on the show, they were just being accomodating for him. I'm not sure what would have happened if he had stayed. Giles was always the gateway to the metaphor. He was the one with the knowledge and names and explainations. He's the "expert on weird." If Buffy is going to be an adult, then it's not just his fatherly love that doesn't fit--it's the entire worldview he has to give her. I can't imagine what would have happened if he had remained on the show. Maybe a drastic revision of his character. Maybe a decent into uselessness, like in season 4 but worse. Or maybe the season would be very different.

I know, I know, I'm being very extreme here. I don't know how things are going to progress. If all of this is really happening, then we're just at the very beginning of it. There are still some mysteries left. I don't know what's going on with Buffy no longer being quite human. Many things could happen. And I know you can point out several supernatural things that have happened. But aside from raising Buffy, which was very complicated and kind of stands outside the rest of the season, the only time the supernatural occurances were integral to the main characters was in "Once More, With Feeling." Otherwise you've got Willow making catastrophic, self-indulgent mistakes, and the three twits playing at being supervillans--which is also portrayed as self-indulgent and stupid.

Where is this all going?

[> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- randy, 06:06:05 01/09/02 Wed

I think you may have hit on why this season is, yet again, so brilliant. They are all acting like children. Not just the three goofballs.

Its a moment that comes to all, the moment when you have to accept that you are not a child anymore, that you are an adult with adult responsibilities. And, as you point out, Giles is once again the gateway. "You're on your own Buffy," he says. Do your best.

They all, except perhaps Spike, want the world to be the way they want. And they feel they should be permitted that. That they have a right to take the easy way and make the world a "better" place for them. That's a child's view. So far this season, we have seen this quality in Dawn, Willow, Xander, and Buffy, as well as the goofballs. Only Dawn has a right to this view. Cuz she's a child.

So I think that is what Buffy has to conquer. She has to grow up. But what does that mean?

Well, one can only guess. But the show has used some standard imagery. Being the child of only a mom, not a mom and a father, was a pretty clear "virgin birth" image, meaning Buffy's significance is not in her physical incarnation, but in her spiritual or supernatural incarnation. That Buffy died. She sacrificed herself to defeat a God and to save humanity. Then she got resurrected.

If the show is following the imagery it started, then Buffy is now a higher order of being. This would explain why Spike can belt her but good. She may even have assimilated the "god" power that she vanquished. who knows. But I don't see how it can suffice for her any longer, at least for this season, to merely vanquish the big bad enemy as she did in the past. She must now redeem. As a higher order being she is Beyond Good and Evil. She is not the Judge any longer. That's why all the potential baddies this year are worthy of redemption, not death.

Think about it. Does Buffy win anything, prove anything, save anything by killing Spike? By killing Willow? By killing the increasingly troubled Dawn? Even by killing the three morons? Maybe Rack can get killed, just to make us feel good, but everyone else needs salvation, not a thrashing.

Buffy, more than anyone, is refusing to accept her new role in life. She wants freedom but without accountability. Classic existential angst. That's why Spike threw her out. To grow up, she needs to accept what she is and what it means. She needs to assimilate the "spike" part of her.

Not that anyone should care what I think, but I totally disagree with the idea that Buffy and Spike aren't right for each other. And I totally disagree with the idea that spike is evil. He's a good man. He's just a vampire. But he doesn't require the crutch of a disappearing and reappearing soul to excuse his behavior.

Anyways, I think she needs to accept her new role and accept her love for spike. cuz he is worthy of her. he's the only one so far that is.

I expect that's what she'll do. How it will come about is a total mystery.

love the show and your site.

[> [> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- maddog, 08:57:11 01/09/02 Wed

oh, I know what will do it for her...whenever she figures out exactly what she is...that'll force her to deal with reality(unless she's just normal, but I'd expect more out of Joss than that).

Spike may not be using a lack of soul as a crutch, but he does use that chip. Notice his obsession didn't turn sexual with Buffy til after the chip went in. In saying that however I am in agreement with you. Though one has to wonder if he could take the chip out...if he were given the opportunity...knowing full well that he could start biting again...would he? Cause that's a major factor here.

When you say he's the only one worthy of her(to which I also agree that he is worthy) do you mean worthy to be her friend(cutting out the other Scoobies) or worthy as in lover(cutting out Angel and Riley)?

[> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- Darby, 06:27:57 01/09/02 Wed

Interesting points, Liz, and maybe they really are the points - maybe the show is moving yet again into one of life's watershed moments.

We saw how the movement from high school outward - Buffy and Willow to college, Xander to the "real world" - had fragmented the relationships. That happens, but often there's a transition period (Season Four) and an awkward settling-out period where contact becomes based on visits "home" (or for family emergencies - Season Five, which dealt with the only family we had really been shown - Joyce and the unshown but "always there" Dawn).

I think we're seeing another step that I've seen in my own life - the separation of friends who, for one reason or another, don't make it through college (Buffy) from the ones that stay (Willow). And I think you're right, the metaphors have given way to pretty concrete images - even the metaphoric images have been more heavy-handed than in the past. There's no feeling of "Aha!" anymore when you figure out the subtext. Why? Have the rules of the show changed purposely, or has the writing staff lost their way?

The idea going into the show was that everyone, at its roots, had the same experiences as adolescents and everyone would relate to sophisticated, understanding stories about those experiences. But after high school things get very different - I'm sure that if we compared notes, we'd find that many people on this board alone, like-minded as we are about Buffy, have gotten to our current positions along very different paths. Maybe the current arc is meant to show that, but it seems tough to do under the constraints of a weekly horror series. Maybe that's it! At least some of everybody's teen years make for good horror, and we all have horror stories from adulthood, but the latter may be less universal. Or maybe they are, but the writers don't trust that they are.

I can't seem to do this without rambling...

Do you really think that BtVS staff still visit the Bronze? It all seems a bit too "TRL" to me - it's just missing the "Wooooooo!"'s - to be navigable.

[> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- Tillow, 07:46:06 01/09/02 Wed

"For a show that has lovingly developed its characters in great detail, this season seems harsh. The characters' problems and devastating emotions are treated with a kind of impatience." ~ Liz

I haven't always liked the interaction between the characters. I couldn't stand Buffy when she went through her 'Why doesn't Parker want me phase.' I had a hard time with no one noticing how left out Xander felt when the rest went to college. The moments between Dawn and Buffy before she found out who Dawn was were harsh. But, in retrospect, each had a purpose.

Buffy has this whole story arch of "Death is your gift-Your Love burns Brighter than the Fire-I feel like I can barely say the words." It's been present ever since Angel and it's continuing nicely through Spike. Nice as far as continuity, not hmm... isn't it pleasant seeing Buffy reject Spike every week.

Xander, representing loyalty and heart, has moved into the adult world. In the depths of his loneliness he found Anya who saw Xander differently than anyone else on the show ever has. To Anya, Xander wasn't just the sidekick who knew how to take a blow to the head, he was a man. And he says in ITW, You make me feel like I've never felt before, like a man.

And the Buffy/Dawn relationship that they didn't even bother to explain for what... 4 episodes, maybe 5? (Psyche's site is down. I'm lost!) But then we get the whole Dawn is Buffy, made from her "It's physical" story line that ultimately led Buffy to her gift and Heaven (we think).

"Have the rules of the show changed purposely, or has the writing staff lost their way?" ~darby

Well, rules may change... we won't know until the end. But season 5 followed a different path than the others and it was still excellent drama. I seriously doubt that the writers have lost their way. Serious angst was bound to happen after the season opener. Buffy is now alive because of Willow's use of magic. The entire plot so far has dealt with these issues in one way or another. In Wrecked Willow sees the results of her magic. In Gone, we see Buffy come to an important realization. She doesn't want to die. Do these plots end here. NO WAY. But I think we will move on to different plots for awhile. What's up with Dawn. I mean, how much angst can one lone teen take before she explodes. And Xander and Anya. There is no way they will be the picture of stability until the seasons end. And she wants to invite D'Hoffren to her wedding. Big fireworks on the way.

I think we are all feeling the loss of Giles and Tara. They were both soothing and mature. So it fits that these two figures fade away leaving the rest to grow up.

"If the show is following the imagery it started, then Buffy is now a higher order of being. This would explain why Spike can belt her but good. She may even have assimilated the "god" power that she vanquished. who knows. But I don't see how it can suffice for her any longer, at least for this season, to merely vanquish the big bad enemy as she did in the past. She must now redeem. As a higher order being she is Beyond Good and Evil. She is not the Judge any longer. That's why all the potential baddies this year are worthy of redemption, not death. ~randy

I love this. Well put!

What has Buffy been struggling with? The fear that she is just a killer. She has the potential to be more but she doesn't want to accept her new role. As Giles says in OMWF "The cries around you, you don't hear at all.. You just lie there when you should be standing tall."

"Buffy, more than anyone, is refusing to accept her new role in life. She wants freedom but without accountability. Classic existential angst. That's why Spike threw her out. To grow up, she needs to accept what she is and what it means. She needs to assimilate the "spike" part of her." ~randy

I think this moment was more about Spike growing up than Buffy. In ITW when Spike and Riley have their heart to heart. Spike talks about his envy of Riley and wondering who has the better deal. He says something to the effect of "To have her, around you, surrounding you, feel her beneath you... and to not have her." And then he decides that Riley does have it better off. To which Riley says "Yep. I'm the guy." Sounding less than convincing.

Well what happened last night? Spike had her but didn't, in a very real way. One of her best friends was in the room and still he got to feel the emptiness of not having her because she won't let him in. And he decides "If I can't have all of you then... " and kicks her out. I think that moment is really about Spike growing up, realizing what his needs are. Maybe he's through being love's bitch.

Overall, I think there are some seriously uncomfortable moment to watch this season because the characters are uncomfortable. And the lack of demons and vampires?? They've fought a God? What tops God?

I see two possibilities. The self, or human evil in general. Buffy can't kill humans. The 'three morons' as randy said, might just be the prep work for a more sinister human villain. Either way, in the end, I have faith all of this discomfort and seeming lack of direction will serve a purpose.... I guess we just have to wait and see.

[> [> New reflections on Season 6--words of doom & hope -- SingedCat, 18:19:53 01/10/02 Thu

Here's what I think,briefly:

This season isn't about the death of magic (although I hate that facile, clumsy, magic/drug-addiction metaphor as much as the rest of you), it's about growing up. Joss has chosen one of the most glaring and disappointing truths we must embrace as we grow, the dissolving of black & white by endless shades of gray. There is no infantile topping of last year's bad guy with this year's Bigger Bad Guy. There is a lull at last in Sunnydale, and the silence is deafening to Buffy; The Woman Who Does Too Much is most terrified of the times when there is nothing to do, because it leavs her (and us) to confront her life.(AAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGH!) Existential angst, indeed!

Even Buffy's righteous judgementalism (the part of her I am most frustrated with at times) is at long last meeting its Waterloo. These guys-they aren't demons; they aren't even all that evil. Willow has been a greater danger than any bad guy this season. Buffy, and the show, must face maturity or demise. Other solutions must be found, ones that exist outside the universe they have been living in.


Spike and Buffy are completely wrong for each other, much as I love and feel for them both, and even entertain the doomed wish that they could be happy together. I'm sorry.


there is something here, something hovering over them, more in heaven and earth if you will...something that has a lot to do with Joss. He has told us over and over again that this show is all about love. (not happiness, love). Being wrong for each other doesn't keep people from falling, or even winding up together. Buffy considered Spike 'beneath' her, and from a moral standpoint she is so right. Although a vampire, he has a human mind, and from that viewpoint he is a conscienceless mass muderer many times over. Given the chance he would gladly return to his true nature, that of feeding on people.

Stop here--regroup. The show isn't about redemption either. It's about love. The vital part of the relationship between Buffy and Spike--and the point which I believe will be developed-- is that both of these characters are full of love. Faulty, messy love. Spike, selfish and self-serving, desiring Buffy without much thought as to what it would do to her life or who she would become; Buffy terrified of being hurt by her love and vainly trying to conceal, disguise or deny, even as she admits how much loving means to her.

Seen this way-- the fallen hero and the fallen villain, now seperated from their polarity by the shades of gray that seem to be turning up everywhere-- these two, I say, who could never love in the world of black and white that they are leaving, perhaps in that cold, scary adult world, where close examination incites compassion of the heart--

why then, perhaps in a world like that two faulty, difficult people might teach each other how to love,...Buffy, passionately; Spike, purely.


[> [> [> Re: New reflections on Season 6--words of doom & hope -- maddog, 08:28:53 01/11/02 Fri

Now it's an awfully bold statement to assume that Spike would bite people NOW even if the chip were taken out. Who's to say that he hasn't changed in all of his time not being able to bite? I'm not saying he won't...but I don't think any of us knows his mind well enough to make that decision just yet.

[> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- maddog, 08:17:27 01/09/02 Wed

Well, first off you're making the assumption that the Troika are the big bad...while this is possible it doesn't seem probably...they've already shown how weak they are in Gone(though bringing Warren to the forefront could be significant). What you also have to remember is that when she was a kid the demons were a metaphor...well, last time I checked she's not a teenager anymore...she has to deal with more adult problems(willow's magic issue, Xander's impending marriage, and Buffy not only having to be mom all of a sudden, but also deal with a boyfriend she doesn't want to admit to yet can't get enough of).

And I wonder how many of the posts on Willow's magic problem you've been reading, but many of us(myself included) don't think she's going to drop this altogether. Stopping anything "cold turkey" is very hard. And as we've seen in Gone, even one day she couldn't hold off from using magic. Many people try this only to realize that it just doesn't work. Willow's true battle will be finding a way to use it just for the Scoobie purposes and not everyday activities because we all know her power is a great asset to this group and would be sorely missed if she gave it up all together. That'll be an internal battle that I'm looking forward to.

I like what you're saying about Giles...to fit this storyline he really had to leave. He can't be there to fix things for them, to coddle them. His only real function is to be their friend and you don't need 23 episodes of Giles trying not to fix things and just be their for moral support. I'm sure I'll have more to say as the replies come out.

[> [> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- DEN, 09:18:55 01/09/02 Wed

In one sense the show has featured a steady escalation of "big bads:"

Season 1--challlenge by a vampire acting aaccording to his nature(the Master seeking to destroy the world)

Season 2--challenge on a personal level (Angel/ Angelus)

Season 3--challenge on a "local" level (the mayor and Snyder)

Season 4--challenge by the government (the Initiative)

Season 5--challenge by the Cosmos (a hell-god)

In that context, this season's focus on internal growth and maturity makes perfect sense as a next step. The nerds represent not "eevil" but counterpoint. Their colossal immaturity, like stealing a diamond to make an invisibility ray in order to look at naked women in a tanning booth, highlights the season's quest by the main characters.

In meeting the challenges of growing up, some behavior has, as discussed above, been anomalous or poorly explained. Buffy clearly uses her invisibility metaphorically, as a free pass from responsibility, and does a series of essentially childish things with it. Willow's use of magic may involve a desire for power--but she wants the power not to rule the world or even boss the Scoobies, but in order to fill the hole in her soul. That's why the often-criticized addiction metaphor has some merit. Xander summons a demon to lay his doubts about marriage, and denies what is happening to both Buffy and Willow. (A nice reflection, BTW, of his alcoholic/abusive family: "daddy isn't passed-out drunk again; he's only taking a little nap on the living room floor.")

I wonder what the plans are for Season 7? Will it be a kind of coda, a reprise, with the characters now stabilized and integrated?

[> Unfortunately, you're dead on -- darrenK, 09:27:33 01/09/02 Wed

No, you're not being extreme. You're right.

And for you, me and the other fans that's worse than you being extreme.

There's another thing missing from this season and I was hoping it wouldn't matter or make a difference:Joss Whedon.

I was hoping that these other writers, some of whose work I like an awful lot could do a good Joss approximation, and they can, but only up to a point.

Joss is the amazing loser that made this show for losers. And way back in Season 3, when Willow's Mom had that great quote about teens identifying with mythical icons, Joss only produced one show. He was there to doctor every script and it shows.

What this season misses is his finishing touch. His ability to put just the right twist on even the smallest detail.

And things aren't going to get any better in this department. Joss will expend the majority of his energy next year on Firefly.

Once more with Feeling was a great episode and it might just be his only episode this year.

That's a sad sad thought.


[> [> loss of Joss -- Liz, 14:52:10 01/09/02 Wed

Yes, I'm noticing the lack of Joss, as well. Which is really too bad--for us, but also for Joss. I remember an interview where he said that he was happy to have created something that was bigger than he was--something that took on a life of its own and could now continue without him. That's possibly not true.

It's not just the great lines that are gone. And it's not that all of the problems I'm having with the current situation are due to Joss's absence. But there's something that he added, some element that allowed things to be dark and funny and poignent all at the same time.

Then again

I know that Joss plans out the general season arc and then leaves spaces for other things to happen. If he is no longer around to make the overall blend consistant, then I really have no idea what's going to happen next. But even if he is planning out the general story, that element is missing. Well, I don't know. I guess I can't really say until the end of the season what I think of it all.

[> [> [> The loss of Joss is greatly exaggerated -- Tanker, 05:16:02 01/10/02 Thu

My message subject is a paraphrase of a comment Joss made recently. He has not gone anywhere. He is still highly involved with BtVS. He said he knows the plot of each remaining Season 6 episode, and knows the general thrust of Season 7. For just one example, he could not have written the musical episode unless he was intimately involved with the writing of the episodes leading up to it.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of reading about how the show has lost Joss. I see it all over the net, and I'm going to risk being really obnoxious by stating that you're flat-out wrong. You don't like the direction the show is going? Blame Joss. He's still in charge on the creative side. Marti just does the grunt-work.

[> [> [> [> I agree, Tanker! -- Marie, 05:47:47 01/10/02 Thu

After all, this is the guy who said (and I actually saw this in an interview he gave) that he oversaw absolutely everything on the show, up to and including, wardrobe! This is his baby, for goodness sake - no way he'd entirely abandon it to others, no matter how he trusted them. I'm absolutely positive he okays final scripts pre-filming. Jane Espenson has stated in interviews that he re-writes bits of her scripts if he thinks it "would sound better that way".


[> [> [> [> Re: The loss of Joss is greatly exaggerated -- Rufus, 13:17:22 01/10/02 Thu

I agree with Tanker, Joss isn't the type to let go of the show that has won such aclaim. From the interviews I've read and the Succubus Club interview with DG, I'm stil sure that nothing happens in the show without first getting approved by Joss.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The loss of Joss is greatly exaggerated -- Tanker, 17:33:47 01/10/02 Thu

Thanks, guys. Sometimes I feel as if I'm fighting this war by myself. Nice to see there are other defenders of the faith (in Joss).

[> [> [> [> Re: The loss of Joss is greatly exaggerated -- Liz, 22:14:22 01/10/02 Thu

Ok, Ok, I agree that Joss has not fallen off the face of the earth. From what I can tell through the little information I have, he still approves everything that goes on. However, I do know that he's no longer living and breathing the show, no longer on the set every day, no longer influencing every detail. I think that is noticable. In little ways. Joss just had this incredible ability to say beautiful, meaningful, horrible things in a way that was concise and oddly funny. When most writers try to do the same thing, it ends up being heavy-handed.

The show Angel, for instance, is frequently heavy-handed and it's kind of a problem for me. It's as if they put up a neon sign that says "The Moral of the Story is HERE" and it breaks my involvement in the story. It breaks the suspension of disbelief. Not that Buffy is doing that... well mostly. It's been doing it a teeny bit. But Joss not only didn't do it badly, he could do it well. He could break your heart in one line. Now the collection of writers they have on Buffy is really great, but I still say there's some undefinable element that is missing.

But if I'm having large problems with the overall tendencies of the 6th season, then I can't blame that on Joss's not being there. If it's a story arc problem, then I'll just have to blame Joss. Which I might. Not sure yet.

[> [> [> [> Re: The loss of Joss is greatly exaggerated -- maddog, 08:00:35 01/11/02 Fri

There's actually an interview linked from the Spoiler Slayer website with one of the writers that states Joss sees just about everything...most everything passes by him for general approval. So Tanker's right on the money...the second a show doesn't go the way you like it the first thing people do is blame it on the fact that the original visionary isn't there much anymore when the fact of the matter is that "visonary" just has moved the show into a different area. And besides, I don't know how many season people have sat here, halfway through, condemning something going wrong, only to be perfectly happy by the end of the season...no faith...people need to relax and trust that Joss and the writers/producers know what they're doing. And after 5 great seasons the faith should be there.

[> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- DEN, 09:32:29 01/09/02 Wed

Liz, your comment on "magic gradually fading from that world" is very Tolkienesque and very perceptive. It's interesting in the same context that until last night the Scoobs just assumed the "nerdish" challenge was somehow magical, rather than "scientific," and encountered a corresponding set of dead ends.

[> [> Re: Reflections on 6th season arc -- Katrina, 12:49:34 01/09/02 Wed

Lots of interesting ideas on the season's themes going on in lots of threads: power, manipulation, responsibility, Buffy and Willow-wise. A two-cents' worth: way back in "Ted" Cordelia suggested that Buffy is "like this superman. Shouldn't there be different rules for her?" And Willow responded, "Sure, in a fascist society." The Slayerettes are all in an unusual position because they straddle the "muggle" and "non-muggle" worlds (thanks for the phraseology ). :) It has always been stresed that Buffy is unique in Slayerdom for her insistence on maintaining a so-called normal life: that going to school, having a normal social life, a normal family, were unusual for a Slayer. Although Kendra and Faith could hardly have been more different, neither of them were trying to live in the normal nine-to-five, tax-paying, social-security-card having world, and from what we know about the Watchers' Council and various other mystical organizations, it could certainly be arranged for a Slayer to have slaying as a full-time job with little or no interference from the non-mystical world. Buffy has always rejected that option. And now she seems to be showing the strain of trying to live in both worlds at once.

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