January 2002 posts

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February 2002

What are the chances that Amy will end up being this season's "Big Bad"?! -- RabidHarpy, 06:32:34 01/31/02 Thu

Amy is manipulative, (emotionally and physically), careless, powerful, angry (at Willow for not changing her back sooner), has dangerous friends (Rack), and now has literally become a "woman scorned", (shunned by her only friend, Willow). Not only that, she's just Warren's type...!

Wasn't there mention that this season's "Big Bad" would be someone familiar whom we hadn't seen in a while?! (Although, after Anya's exchange with D'Hoffryn, if she keeps having doubts about Xander and he keeps correcting her, she might just want to slip back into "vengeance wreaking mode"! Oh my! What would happen if Amy and Anya teamed up!?!? Look out Sunnydale!!!)

[> first, keep spoilers out of the subject please, and second... (spoilers for DMP) -- Solitude1056, 06:36:25 01/31/02 Thu

Stop reading my mind! ;-)

I was thinkign the exact same thing when Amy flounced away from the front door after Willow told her off...

[> [> Uh...huh?! How can speculation be considered a spoiler?! Just curious... -- RabidHarpy, 06:10:12 02/01/02 Fri

If you mean by mentioning "Amy" in the title, I was sure that she has been mentioned quite often on the board recently. Or were you referring to what I had posted in my message about the goings-on in "DMP" - I thought that after the episode had aired it was fair game for discussion, (or are we thinking about people in the UK who haven't gotten any of this past seasons' eps?)

Just wondering - I didn't mean to offend! I've been off this board for a while and may have forgotten proper etiquette! Apologies!

[> Re: What are the chances that Amy will end up being this season's "Big Bad"?!(possible spoilers) -- maddog, 06:37:59 01/31/02 Thu

I thought in one of the six billion Noxon interviews she said there wouldn't be a typical big bad this season. So I was waiting more of a "everyones problems gets so out of hand they can't handle a little bad" type concept.

[> Re: What are the chances that Amy will end up being this season's "Big Bad"?! -- neaux, 06:39:32 01/31/02 Thu

if Buffy came back wrong... why can't BUFFY be the BIG BAD.

even if buffy seems to be buffy... spike and buffy both know she isnt exactly "right"

[> [> Wild hair speculation, no confirmed spoilers -- Rattletrap, 08:01:55 01/31/02 Thu

Hmmm, you just got me thinking Neaux. I like the idea of Buffy as a Big Bad, but not for S6, it leaves too many problems for next year. It would work better for S7 if that is the last year of the series. Consider this: some have suggested that Dawn might also be a slayer of some sort, and that she is just discovering her power. It might be a fitting way to end the series for Dawn to kill off Buffy, new replacing old. This fits beautifully with the idea of regeneration through violence that has supposedly influenced Joss, and would be a great way for the series to go out with a bang.

[> [> [> Nah, can't do that -- vampire hunter D, 10:20:52 01/31/02 Thu

They won't kill Buffy for no ohter reason than without her they can't make any movies.

[> [> [> [> Re: Nah, can't do that -- neaux, 11:07:54 01/31/02 Thu

I dont know why Buffy cant die.. she died last season.. just keep bringing her back is what i say =D

[> Predictable predictions -- change, 09:34:51 01/31/02 Thu

The Willow drug addiction theme is just too predictable for Amy to become the big bad. Amy's either going to die of a black magic overdose and shock Willow into quiting forever, or Willow will deal with her addiction by rescueing Amy. Given that Willow has already quit, I'm waiting for the "Willow save's her friend from herself" episode.

Buffy's Weakness is.... -- Cecilia, 07:51:17 01/31/02 Thu


If you look back over the course of the series you'll notice that Buffy is the type of person who can be instantly strong and supportive for others, but not for herself.

As early as season 1, she was all ready to flake out on fighting the master, couldn't deal but when she saw how much Willow was hurting, she found the strength. Also, with Angel/Angelus, after many opportunities she didn't kill him, but found the strength to do so for Giles (first time in the factory after Angel had killed Jenny, second time when Giles had been kidnapped).

Now I don't mean to suggest that facing death at sixteen or killing someone who was/is the love of your life would be easy for anyone but she doesn't really seem to have the inner strength to do it for herself, only for others. In a slayer, that can both be a good thing and a dangerous thing. Think back to what Spike told her about slayers having a death wish. Buffy is unique in that she has friends and family, if she can't fight for herself, she will fight for them. Now that I think about it, maybe this is an inherent weakness with all slayers only they have not traditionally had people in their lives.What sets her apart from past slayers is that her slayerness(?) is focused on others, it's her own life she can't deal with.

I think what makes this season's Buffy remarkable different is that there is no need to fight for others (seeing as how there is no "big bad"). She has to find the strength to fight for her life in the real world, not in the world of vampires and demons and she really has no idea how to do this.

All her life, at least as much of it as we have seen, all her goals have been externally influenced. Her focus has always been on helping others. While this is not a bad thing, she is unable to cope with focusing on herself on a personal level. Remember how she floundered when she first started college? Only after she regained (although she never lost it) the support of Giles, Willow and Xander was she able to move forward with some confidence.

What about her statement to Xander last year about how she had to start "being comfortable being with me"? That has been totally forgotten, although to be fair, being dead for 3 months may cause one to forget things like that.

All this brings me to my point regarding growing up (the much talked about theme of this season). In order to really grow up we need to face our weaknesses and, if not conquer them, at least acknowledge them. Right now, Buffy is in a holding pattern, not ready or able to take this next step. Perhaps, for her, she needs to let things build up or influence/affect those around her before she can rise to the occasion. This is where I see Dawn taking a pivotal role. Buffy's neglect of herself has and will continue to have a profound affect on Dawn. Only when this is thrown into Buffy's face will she be able confront it and move forward (I think this is where Dawn's kleptomania will come in).

Perhaps in some way this will also explain why and exactly how she "came back wrong", although I cannot really put my finger on it. However, I do think it explains why she is working in a degrading low paying job, why she continues to dally with Spike, etc. She feels lost, she feels unworthy and the reason she feels this way is because she never learned to feel any other way about herself.

[> Very good points -- Sophist, 08:23:59 01/31/02 Thu

[> Random thought about Dawn. (small spoiler) -- Darby, 08:58:24 01/31/02 Thu

I doubt it will go this way, but...

Dawn is jealous of Buffy - who wouldn't be? This results in both emulation (which hasn't worked too well up to now) and rebellion (which seems to be going real well, except that no one's noticed).

What the stealing should lead to is getting caught (she obviously wants to). But what would happen afterward in a town as insular as Sunnydale (I grew up in a small town with a black sheep cousin, so I'm speaking from experience) is Dawn would be treated by the authorities like "another of those bad seed Summers girls." How would she react to having her rebel behavior seen as "copying" Buffy? I don't think it's the response she's "looking for."

Sorry, Cecilia, that doesn't address your fine points, which I know can be frustrating - the problem with complex ideas is that I have to think some more on those.

[> [> Re: Random thought about Dawn. (small spoiler) -- Cecilia, 09:13:44 01/31/02 Thu

I pretty sure I read a spoiler somewhere that Dawn and Buffy do have it out over her stealing. I find spoilers that are plot-wise logical seem to be fairly accurate.

I think you're right, Dawn is overshadowed by Buffy (aren't all little sisters somewhat overshadowed by big sisters) and how Dawn is going to deal and develop as a character is difficult to determine. Maybe because we haven't had 6 years to get to know her.

I still think, as I believe I posted before, that Dawn's stealing is a symptom of her self-esteem issue (not just who am I but what am I), and how that plays out is going to be interesting.

[> Re: Buffy's Weakness is.... -- maddog, 09:08:03 01/31/02 Thu

I was with you until you said that Buffy's in a holding pattern. I think she WAS up until "Gone". She acknowledged by the end of that episode that she was afraid of dieing...and that's the first step. And the next step was going out, getting the job, and then sticking with the job when she could have taken the easy way out. That shows progress...maturity. SHe's stuck in a low paying job because that's all she's qualified for...remember, she's got a total of 3 months experience as a waitress. Not exactly the sharp resume.

[> [> Agreed but -- Cecilia, 09:20:54 01/31/02 Thu

she seemed so unaffected by the realization that she doesn't want to die. Kind of like, "sigh-I don't want to die". Maybe it was a first step but the reason I think she's still in a holding pattern is because that realization was not a life-affirming I WANT TO LIVE!!!.

It just didn't feel like a "It's a Wonderful Life" kind of a moment and it really should be, ya know.

[> [> [> Re: Agreed but -- maddog, 10:10:07 01/31/02 Thu

Yeah but Buffy's not exactly Ms Excitement right now. I didn't see it in a bland way, but more of a calm, "I just figured out what my problem is" kinda tone. I don't think you'll hear a life affirming I WANT TO LIVE from her...that's not really her style.

[> [> [> [> Re: Agreed but -- Cecilia, 10:38:52 01/31/02 Thu

If we are dealing with the metaphor of growing up and if her stumbling block to doing so is an inability to focus on herself then she needs to shout I WANT TO LIVE.

She told Dawn the hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it. The hardest thing for Buffy to do is to look inside herself and find a reason to live. The change for Buffy has to be internal or she will never grow, never move beyond where she is now. It has to be strong, life-affirming and absolutly clear and focused or change will never come.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreed but -- maddog, 11:04:32 01/31/02 Thu

I agree completely...except for the shouting...unless you're talking metaphorically and then yeah, I agree.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Metaphorically shouting yeah! -- Cecilia, 11:56:00 01/31/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Ofcourse Buffy isn't shouting.... -- Kerri, 14:23:06 01/31/02 Thu

You could see that Buffy had mixed feelings about wanting to live. Letting herself feel again isn't easy-it means letting all the pain in and I don't think Buffy is totally ready to do that-and that is why she still seems to be going through the motions.

And I agree that Buffy needs to be more introspective-which she seems to be giveing some signs of-realizing she wanted to live. Buffy has never been that comfortable with herself. She's always fought for someone else. Remember in season 4 Buffy felt so out of place and couldn't defend herself, but when Professor Walsh was mean to Willow after Oz left Buffy had no problem standing up to her. The thing is it's hard to want to fight for yourself is you don't even like yourself. And I think that liking who she is is an important step to take cause right now Buffy seems to hate herself so much.

[> [> Re: Buffy's Weakness is.... -- Rattletrap, 11:38:22 01/31/02 Thu

"SHe's stuck in a low paying job because that's all she's qualified for...remember, she's got a total of 3 months experience as a waitress. Not exactly the sharp resume."

It occurs to me that she probably can't put those 3 months on a job application because she was a teenage runaway working under an assumed name. She really was starting from scratch.

[> Re: Buffy's Weakness is.... -- maddog, 09:11:40 01/31/02 Thu

I was with you until you said that Buffy's in a holding pattern. I think she WAS up until "Gone". She acknowledged by the end of that episode that she was afraid of dieing...and that's the first step. And the next step was going out, getting the job, and then sticking with the job when she could have taken the easy way out. That shows progress...maturity. SHe's stuck in a low paying job because that's all she's qualified for...remember, she's got a total of 3 months experience as a waitress. Not exactly the sharp resume.

[> [> Sorry for Double Post...I've been getting busy messages here and there today -- maddog, 10:29:04 01/31/02 Thu

[> Growing Up and Growing Into Your Own Skin -- fresne, 14:17:01 01/31/02 Thu

As, so often happens here, your post polarized something that has been nagging me about the whole Grow Up theme this year.

I watch the episodes and I read interviews with the writers (its an addiction, but I can stop any time) and I keep hearing over and over that Buffy and the Scobbies need to "Grow up." Learn that life is about long term consequences to actions. Deal with the boredom of jobs that you don't like. Doing things that you don't want to do. Learn responsibility.

When you wrote of Buffy's self esteem problems and her self medicated punishment of low end job and emotionally degrading hijinks with Spike, it made me re-realize that at least for me, "Growing Up" had nothing to do with low income jobs and facing the slow boredom of life.

For one thing, the older I get, the more time flies by. It's the difference between 10 years to a 10 year old (the entirety of their life experience) and 10 years to a 70 year old (a 7th of your life). Weird to see Willow wish real life went faster. I wish real life would slow down.

Low income jobs - hmmm--actually that was more a factor of my teens (been getting a pay check since age 12) and early twenties. You know the ages when you flail around a lot. Growing up was switching from jobs to a career that I enjoyed doing and that coincidentally earn more than minimum wage.

Back OT: Buffy has essentially been working a part to full time job that she doesn't (always?) like since age 15. She doesn't get paid, so it's a sacred calling and not a respectable profession like a Doctor or a Lawyer.

As to facing the consequences of actions, I'm inclined to think that Buffy learned that lesson after Angel lost his soul, after her friends/family emotionally pounded on her for running away from home, after Faith imploded.

For me, "Growing Up" was the moment, or was it a series of moments, in which I grew into my own skin. You wake up one day and realize that it doesn't matter if you do and behave in ways that aren't "normal" or "mundane." When you stop letting other people define who you are, when you say, "I define me."

Because, in an odd moment, you realize that you like yourself and that makes life goals possible and doable. I want Buffy to get back to that moment in Becoming, when she knew that with all else stripped away, she had herself. I want her to understand what that means.

Even more, a moment of saying not only am I an okay person to be, but I will accept nothing less than being the absolute most me that I can be.

It's part of what I want Buffy to get out of her relationship with Spike. Forget good boy, bad boy, walks in the mall vs. fights in the cemetaryness. I want that internal sense that irregardless that lifestyle choices are different from what the world regards as normal, that as long as she's okay with it, then there is nothing wrong with it. And conversely if the relationship doesn't give her something, if she isn't okay with it, well--to possess the basic mindset to not do it. Do something different. Be true to herself. Basically, the inner "who am I" angsting that we didn't get when Willow so easily decided, "okay gay now."

[> [> Re: Growing Up and Growing Into Your Own Skin -- Liz, 15:47:22 01/31/02 Thu

I agree utterly about growing up. If it's about responsibility and understanding consequences of actions, then the show has been about growing up from the very beginning. And the characters have grown admirably.

If growing up is supposed to be about accepting and dealing with the harshness of the world, if it's about accepting the life of crap jobs and taking what people throw at you, if it's about accepting your place as the tool of society so you can take care of those depending on you... well then I have to say it contradicts everything _Buffy_ has said in years past. Buffy has always been about making her own choices, rejecting authority, and doing things her own way. Even her own death in season five was Not One of the Options Given.

So now real life's dragging her down. Life in general is dragging her down. She's becoming a grown up and she's spiraling into depression, and while these things don't have to go hand in hand, I have yet to see any sign of them separating. But I have to wait and see. Maybe she really is going through the same thing as the end of season two: the point where the hero is stripped of everything. Maybe she will come to the discovery that what she has left is herself--and that's enough. Maybe not. No clue.

[> [> Re: Growing Up and Growing Into Your Own Skin -- Anneth, 16:05:33 01/31/02 Thu

"It's part of what I want Buffy to get out of her relationship with Spike. Forget good boy, bad boy, walks in the mall vs. fights in the cemetaryness. I want that internal sense that irregardless that lifestyle choices are different from what the world regards as normal, that as long as she's okay with it, then there is nothing wrong with it. And conversely if the relationship doesn't give her something, if she isn't okay with it, well--to possess the basic mindset to not do it. Do something different. Be true to herself. Basically, the inner "who am I" angsting that we didn't get when Willow so easily decided, "okay gay now"

That is *exactly* what I want to see for Buffy, too. She, out of her group, is the one who has matured the least in that sense. Willow's romantic evolution from (Xander to) Oz to Tara had nothing to do with thier respective sexes and everything to do with the fact that they were all good people who genuinely loved and cared for her. As for Xander - he's not just dating an ex-demon now, he's engaged to her! Whether or not it'll work out is irrelevant - the point is that he hasn't ever (that I recall) been weirded out by Anya's past. (I mean, she's 1000+ to his 20/21 years... that's pretty intimidating.)

But Buffy - one of her first responses during the morning after scene in Wrecked is "if you tell *anyone* I swear to god I'll kill you" - which is as cruel as it is unnecessary. It has been pretty clear throughout the entire recent Buffy/Spike arc that she's terribly concerned that someone will notice and figure out that she's a) attracted to him and b) currently sleeping with him. But, although I can see her friends caring and being disturbed, even upset by such information, I can't see their reactions necessitating such a dire threat. And really - who would he tell? Season 4 made it obvious that both the demon and the human worlds had rejected him, and the Scoobies were so protective of her (and rightfullly so, but that's a different conversation) during season 5, when he was being obsessive, that he certainly wouldn't want to jeopardize their moderately good will by boasting... Even he got past the "Oh dear god, I'm in love with the Slayer!" thing pretty quickly.

But Buffy - she's still afraid that the men she brings home will reflect poorly on her. They might; we all run that risk. But she hasn't yet learned that that's simply not an important consideration (once you graduate from high school, at least). We're attracted to whomever we're attracted to completely in spite of ourselves and our best intentions. She has yet to learn that there's no shame in that, and that those amongst her friends who really love and respect her will respect her relationships, too (even if they don't approve of them). Plus - her friends and sister are really very generous people. Would that we all had friends as understanding as they (usually) are.

[> [> Exactly right! Plus..... -- Sophist, 08:46:31 02/01/02 Fri

Growing up means becoming comfortable with who you are and what you do. That's exactly right. In fact, the angst of the teenage years comes from the sense of uncertainty more than anything else (well, with a push from a few hormones). Growing up means gaining confidence, losing uncertainty about yourself.

At the same time, we can't push the "I'm ok" point too far. The show has always emphasized the need for friends to complete us. Buffy not only needs to be comfortable with herself, her friends need to demonstrate that they are comfortable with her in that newfound confidence.

That's where the tension comes with B/S. Buffy's conflicted about Spike in part because she believes that her friends (Xander especially) may not accept that relationship. The solution -- as you said -- is for Buffy to decide in her own mind what she wants to do, and _then_ for her to be able to express that in a way that her friends will understand and accept. Only when both of these happen is the circle complete.

[> [> [> I'm Okay, your Okay -- fresne, 11:19:00 02/01/02 Fri

Yes, its that fine and difficult line between being defined by other people and your relationships with them versus defining yourself and being enriched by your relationships with other people.

Here's to hoping that the "Growing Up" theme is only this year and next year we get to the bit where being an adult is one of the most rewarding experiences that can happen to a person. After all high school was hell.

And for that matter start to play out what being self assured means to your friendships. Since, growing up can be a breaking point. Old high school friends who prefer the lost less confident and secure you. Relationships that shift because you need different things. Becoming friends with your parents, not that there are any left in Sunnydale.

Nevermore's go at writing a fanfic :-) 'Breaking' part 1 -- Nevermore, 07:58:36 01/31/02 Thu

Well I thought I'd have a go, studying creative writing and all! I hope people enjoy it.

(Contains swearing, and violence)

Giles is 21, in London and in trouble. The recent death of Randall has scattered the remaining members of the magic group. Giles in particular, has been ignoring everyone--and sits alone in his bedsit. Ethan knows that out of all the old group, Giles had the most potential for performing dark magic, so--after an early evening out drinking by himself, he swaggers over to his flat to call for him. Giles opens the door--hollow-eyed, and humorless at the sight of his scrawny friend.

"I thought I'd pop round for a little chat with my good friend," Ethan said warmly. He went to walk in, beginning to put his arm over Giles' shoulder. Giles stepped back and shrugged him off coldly; Ethan smelt like a brewery.

"Don't touch me"

"Why…Ripper, don't ya fancy going into town tonight then?"

"Ethan, I,I,I cant. Not tonight--leave me uh, alone. I want…to be alone."

Ethan smirked, his eyes glittering, "Don't tell me--you got bored of your new friends. I don't think you should ignore any friends--especially after a traumatic time. We should be together Ripper--helping each other through it-"

"Don't!" Giles pleaded, putting out his hand--he raised his head and glared, rising anger kindling in his eyes. "Don't…call me that, anymore. I don't…" He bit his lip and began to push the door closed. Ethan put out his foot, wedging it open. He noticed for the first time that the look of malice he'd seen Rupert so often turn on others--was now looking at him.

"Rupert, do you think you can hide from this-there's no going back mate--not to Mummy. And as for Daddy--well he'll, you know...?" Ethan grinned.

Giles stared menacingly "He won't, because he'll never know!"

"You so sure? Maybe someone might have told him some more about you, the sordid side of you that is, and those little visits to Soho..."

"And you too! You're worse, you…basterd."

Ethan raised his eyebrows in mock surprise. "Ooh harsh--at this rate you'll lose all your friends in one week, speaking to them like that! I can see what you need right now…You think you can cope without? C'mon Rupe! You know there's no other way…"

Suddenly Rupert lunged forward, viciously grabbing Ethan by the back of the head. Ethan paled at the mad eyes staring wildly at him, and the teeth clenched in silent, shaking rage.

Ethan swallowed, " Here he is! Ole Ripper of London Town… What you got then, eh?"

Rupert dragged Ethan closer until his mocking grimace almost met his pale thinned lips. Giles' tone was dangerously hushed.

"If I haven't already made it bleedin' obvious enough for you - I don't want to hang around with immature little Tossers anymore. You made your choice, I've now decided I don't like it, if you got a problem with that then don't come whingeing round me, you sly little shit."

With this he pushes Ethan out of the door, slamming it in his face. The bang caused Ethan to wince, but he continued to taunt him out loud, his voice echoing in the corridor.

"What you going to do Ripper…or is it Rupert Giles? Go religious, pray for redemption--say sorry? Oh, you know we're too far gone for that--remember you can't turn back!"

Ethan turned and began to swagger down the stairs; he'd call round again tomorrow, give him time to see sense. "If he don't, then there's always the option of a little bullying!" he reasoned with himself. "Not fists of course, that's too rough and Rupert-like." The forces he was thinking about were much more fun, and far less likely to result in broken knuckles.

The Ripper was crouching in the hall, visibly shaking, wearing the expression of a person who'd just been slapped hard across the face. The odd bit of crime here and there, smash up a few things, take stuff you fancy: like girls. Enjoy yourself-you're young Ripper--good looking. You got to live, no one can make you do anything…
But now you're a killer, ironic that is - another murderer renting in Whitechapel, lost, hated--an outsider. A No-one. That's too different--too wrong. He shivered, flung on his coat, slammed the door and clattered down the metal stairs. So if you're already there; go then, and live in the gutter, live with the rats. He smiled, his breath clouding in the icy air. Nothing like raw excitement to kill fear.

[> Nevermore's go at writing a fanfic :-) 'Breaking' part 2 -- Nevermore, 08:03:26 01/31/02 Thu

The multi-storey's lights flickered, Giles' shadow travelled along a graffitied wall. Cortinas, Minors, Heralds, mmm a Stag, might be a last resort. But…in the sickly light he spotted the type of car he loved so much. One that could make him feel happy, just for a moment. He tweaked it, slipped in, wired it and it roared. He smiled mischievously, glancing briefly in the Jensen's rearview mirror to ruffle his bleached hair. So stupid to leave a car like this in a public car park at night.


The shout made Giles pale. You must go on because you can't turn back. That's what it meant to run away. A Pig on the beat. He reversed out then spun the wheels, leaving the copper and two snaking black lines behind.

Even with his foot down he knew now fleeing was quite pointless, always was when you took things too far. Half a mile down the road he lost the back end at a junction. Poor traction on the frosty tarmac. The engine roared as the back wheels hit the kerb. The car found some grip and shot forward into a wall with a loud bang.

All was numb, Giles nose prickled and his eyes wouldn't focus. He turned off the engine. His nose felt blocked, his fingers went up to feel his face, and found it sticky. He swallowed, feeling his whole body's temperature plummet and his skin go clammy. His hands shook as a policeman dragged him out of the car and handcuffed him on the bonnet. Pain then took over his body; he didn't notice all the people staring, all voices seemed muffled.

Sitting in the back of the car shivering uncontrollably he watched little black dots floating around before he finally passed out.

He had his nose cleaned up and straightened before they put him in a cell. His father found him eventually and picked him up. They drove slowly home in silence, faces showing opposite emotions, one haunted and ashen, a bloodstained shirt hiding a body nervous and jumpy; the other wore a mask cold and steely, only the grey eyes staring at the road offered a glimpse of emotion; that of relief. Alistair knew that his son had finally come home to him.

[> [> Re: Nevermore's go at writing a fanfic :-) 'Breaking' part 3 -- Nevermore, 08:09:12 01/31/02 Thu

"For God's sake dad-just…shut up?" Giles used milder words than he was going to, but they still caused a lot of damage. His father's tone was of rising anger.

"Rupert--you well know that I had as little choice when I was your age. I thought myself lucky to have been a Watcher and not to be drafted out to France. And you, your generation should feel nothing but gratitude owing your lives…"

"Don't bring war into it! You always bring that up--what am I supposed to do? Grovel all my life--say , oh, I'm sor-ry? SO-RRY--dead people out there!"

"I wish I could have been proud of you, Rupert. You are ONE step away from me dragging you out that door by the scruff of your neck-"

"Bloody Hell Dad!"

"I shouldn't have to remind you to watch your language while you're in my house!" Alistair's face had reddened with anger, his brow furrowed into the grooves of habit. "Give me strength…!"

"Alistair, please calm down."

"May, how can I calm down while trying to get through to this!" Alistair ranted, gesturing wildly toward his son.

"You aren't getting anywhere, just like before, shouting isn't going to make anyone listen to you, let alone your son." May's was always the calming voice of reason. Giles got up and quickly slipped out of the room. His father went to pursue him.

"Alistair! let him go." His wife looked up at him, voice pleading. She continued in a quieter more appealing tone. "Have you considered that it's us making him what he is."


"He never knew the war, you can't expect him to want to hear all the waffle about our past when all that's important to him is his future. He's a young man Alistair, full of it. You were there once…remember?" May's eyes questioned him, her mouth thin with the routine of worry.

Alistair's voice softened, "I, I was brought up with rules, with discipline. Table manners, chores, rotas, was set targets. You tell me to go easy on the boy--I tell you he has had it easier than I did--one squeak of complaint and I had the belt. Real fear; the only thing which keeps a Giles lad in check, May--and though it was hard at the time it stopped me from straying to evil. I do not hold it against my father--how can I--for I am still alive now, and at my age I do not bear such guilt as my son already does - at less than half my years! "

"A bad crowd, Alistair, will tempt any young na•ve person--the Giles temperament will always be naturally good. Rupert is simply frustrated--and afraid, and I think it's because of us. Different times, my dear--I know he is sorry that he can't understand your way of seeing things…" May paused, and concluded sadly, "I don't think children are meant to."


Hope sparked in Alistair's eyes at the gentle tone of his son's voice. A quick smile flashed across his lips.

Something dripped on the kitchen floor. A second drip landed beside it.

"I,I…I'm sorry."

Mr. Giles forgave him on the spot. He really and truly was; for the first time in six years his son had spoken those words as if he meant them. Alistair turned in apprehension.

He saw a young man leaning against the door-frame, shivering and deadly pale. Red rimmed eyes focused on the floor, his right hand clasping his left wrist, attempting to slow the loss of blood, trickling down his fingers, dripping on the tiles.

"I really w-wanted to…but, I…c-c…Please, help me."

Father and son stared at each other. The former set his jaw, he was fighting many emotions, now should be the time to offer love, but he didn't know how. His dismay at realising this gave way to much frustration and finally anger. He bit his lip and sat down quickly in shock. He'd never seen Rupert look so afraid, but he was quite unable to help. May stared at her husband and tutted. He felt invisible.

"Rupert, come on, over to the sink while I get something to stop the bleeding."

Alistair looked away and wringing his hands, looked on as his wife dressed the wound, helped him into the car and drove Rupert to hospital.

After watching the car go up the drive and turn into the road, Alistair rose, crossed the room slowly, opened a glass-fronted cabinet and poured himself a measure of Scotch. He swallowed it in one and poured himself another.

[> [> [> Is this finished? -- Marie, 08:56:27 01/31/02 Thu

'Cos I want to see where you're going with this...


[> [> [> [> Re: Is this finished? -- Nevermore, 09:08:20 01/31/02 Thu

It would be nice to continue with it - But initially I was intrigued how Giles got onto the straight and narrow - and so i've tryed to come up with something plausible. I'll see what people think of it first :-)

[> [> [> Nice -- matching mole, 09:02:11 01/31/02 Thu

I like the idea of doing a bit based on Giles' past. A very well thought out portrayal of what Giles' family life would have been like and good, subtle portraits of his parents. The portrayal of his suicide attempt is very nicely understated.

If you want any suggestions I have a couple (if I may be so bold).

Put in a little bit of description of the surroundings (maybe just a comment here or there amidst the dialogue) so we can get a hint of what Giles' flat and his parents' home look like.

Ground the story in the era by having Giles listen to some music or briefly mention his clothes or his hair or something.

These are (of course) based purely on my own preferences in fiction.

Really liked this - especially not actually having any magic shown but just hinting at it.

[> [> [> [> cheers for your comments :-) I'll go do some more seventies research! -- Nevermore, 09:12:12 01/31/02 Thu

[> [> [> Nicely done -- Cecilia, 09:41:15 01/31/02 Thu

I like the way you filled in the missing holes of Giles past. Most of the stuff we know (his demon raising days, his reluctance to accept his fate as a Watcher) but you put a face and a heart on it.

I would agree with matching mole's comments. Flesh out the story a little, it has the meat you just need to add the potatoes.

Buffy's come back wrong -- Kev, 08:22:43 01/31/02 Thu

Buffy's come back wrong. It's been staring us in the proverbial face all season. Joss is known for his metaphors. Is it possible he's doing it again? Buffy the character, as well as Buffy the show has come back wrong. While I still count myself among the most loyal fans, Buffy is a different show this season. I've always admired the way the characters actually grow and evolve. But, that growth has pretty much always taken place within the context of some overall plot. The Mayor, the Initiative, the Master and so on. This season the character development IS the storyline. As a result, for me at least, there seems to be something missing. Something is not quite right. Buffy has come back wrong. Watching two hours of the earlier season each night on FX makes it even more obvious. But, is Whedon at it again? Is the season also a metaphor for what the writers are going through? Taking away Joyce, and Giles, and just about any adult influence on the Scoobs is forcing them to re-evaluate life, and their role in it. Those changes are also causing the writers to re-evaluate the Buffy universe. They can't fall back on the old "apocalypse du jour" formula they've followed for five seasons. A formula that we've become accustomed to as well. We're seeing the Buffy crew go through all kinds of changes. And, some of those changes have been pretty awkward. As the writers begin to alter the Buffyverse, some of the episodes have seemed a bit awkward as well. Just as The Body gave us a very real feeling of what it is like to lose a loved one, perhaps this season is trying to give us the very real feeling of struggling with growing up, and finding one's place in the world. They are accomplishing that beautifully, but for me at least, it's starting to get a bit tedious. Imagine what it would have been like had The Body been a 12 parter, with each episode equally gut wrenching. I'm guessing that would have started to wear a bit thin, too. My hope is, that as Buffy the character gets back on track, so will Buffy the show. And, knowing Whedon's work, that could be exactly the path they're on. Buffy has come back wrong. OK Joss, after 12 weeks, we get it already. To paraphrase Cordy, isn't it about time to spank the inner moppet and move on?

[> Re: Buffy's come back wrong -- maddog, 09:36:10 01/31/02 Thu

I'd have to agree with you. Because growing up isn't easy. It's awkward, and strange, and the things you knew just don't exist anymore(which is obvious by the fact that there are no adult figures around...why? Because the Buffy crew ARE adults now). So the feel of the show has changed...because it's one thing to see Buffy going through the changes, but if we feel odd, like the shows aren't quite working, then we're going through the growing and changing with them. It's an interesting concept and I think(like a few other people have done in past years) if you sit down once it's over and watch them one right after the other(Buffy marathon...sounds fun) you'll be awed by how it all fits. While I like the Cordy reference(one of the major reason I watch Angel) I think Joss may not be so quick to change things. He's got every opportunity to show us that sometimes people don't make their corrections, in effect grow up quickly. We could be left with a season ending cliffhanger that makes us think...ALL SUMMER LONG. Relax, I have no knowledge...I just think that's something Joss could and would pull off. :)

[> Re: Buffy's come back wrong -- Rattletrap, 05:51:31 02/01/02 Fri

I'm not sure I agree with your point that the show itself came back wrong. But I think the way this season has been structured is intended to convey some of what Buffy is feeling. We've had this awkward uncertain feeling, never quite sure where anything is going. In some ways, I think this is a brilliant stroke of writing. Joss knows that all of his fans will be expecting a Big Bad to show up for Buffy to fight against, but Buffy doesn't have the luxury of that sense of purpose anymore. As a twenty-something finishing up school and about to hit the job market, I've found all of this deeply resonant with where I am in my life, trying to find where exactly I'm supposed to fit and how to make things work.

Just my $.02


[> [> Re: Buffy's come back wrong -- yez, 14:19:57 02/01/02 Fri

Interesting points. They are having to deal with a lot of changes for this season, and I can see how that reflects back on and reinforces the themes the show is trying to cover.

That said, this season kind of feels like those dreams where distance stretches out and you can't make progress -- you're flailing about, but you're not covering any real ground. That's exacerbated, I think, by the strange pattern of airing eps. that seems to have taken over. It's taken 18 weeks to get 11 eps. It's just dragging, IMHO. It hampers the storytelling. And there're a lot of subplots going on, so in any given ep., you have a very small "visit" with any given subplot.


[> [> [> Re: Buffy's come back wrong -- Rattletrap, 05:15:56 02/02/02 Sat

True, but until the networks stop basing advertising rates on February and May sweeps, I suspect we'll have to live with the sporadic mid-season.

Let us not forget, this show is not produced for our entertainment, but so the network and the production company can sell advertising to make money. We all hate this, but it's the system.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's come back wrong -- yez, 07:43:52 02/02/02 Sat

Sure, but I thought the traditional airing pattern was:
1. new eps. start in fall
2. holiday-time reruns
3. new eps. after holidays
4. summer hiatus.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like lately, networks aren't sticking to that. They're alternating between new eps. and reruns a little more often.

Maybe it still is because of sweeps. For example, maybe the network thinks the upcoming next few eps. are the strongest, and they wanted to be sure they aired during sweeps, and so they had to throw in more reruns to get the timing right.

Or is that how it's always worked? I don't know -- things just seem weird this year... Not just Buffy and Angel, but other shows, too.

Or maybe I'm just getting old and these things are annoying me more.


Joss Interview with Fangoria -- Darby, 09:16:21 01/31/02 Thu

Some interesting stuff, especially about the long-term future on the big screen.

At Fangoria

[> What do you mean by 'changing heads'? -- skeeve, 12:12:26 01/31/02 Thu

A question Ian Spelling didn't ask. Must have been the time limit.

[> Does anyone know what happened to the "Prophecy Girl" commentary Joss mentions? -- Darby, 16:21:51 01/31/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Does anyone know what happened to the "Prophecy Girl" commentary Joss mentions? -- Rattletrap, 05:53:11 02/01/02 Fri

I wondered that too. My DVD doesn't have it, I double-checked just to make sure. I will be deeply annoyed if some of them have it and others don't; but I think it is more likely that the interviewer doesn't know what he's talking about, it would hardly be the first time that's happened.

A REALLY interesting Marti interview (it has spoilers, though) -- Darby, 09:34:49 01/31/02 Thu

Marti Noxon gives more "behind the curtain" stuff here than I've seen in any other interview - it should be fodder for lots of posts.

For instance, did anyone get that Rack "raped" Willow????

It's from Dreamwatch, by way of The Kitten, the Witches, and the Bad Wardrobe.

Sorry if I'm overdoing it, but I'm kinda snowed in and surfing through Slayage.

[> Re: A REALLY interesting Marti interview (it has spoilers, though) -- maddog, 09:47:43 01/31/02 Thu

That was a very good article. I never really saw the Rack thing as rape...though I can understand where they get the idea from. Very interesting theories on her part though. I'm definitely looking forward to the last 10 or so episodes.

[> Metaphors -- Cecilia, 09:53:18 01/31/02 Thu

Loved the Marti Noxon interview and it got me thinking about how the show has always heavily used metaphors.

I put this thought out to you all-What was Buffy's death a metaphor for and how does it affect the current season?

[> [> Re: Metaphors (s5-6 spoilers, vaguely) -- Darby, 10:07:32 01/31/02 Thu

I'm starting to get the feeling that Buffy's death itself was maybe a metaphor for her role in last season's arc, but it's her return that has set up the current metaphor for coasting through early adulthood with the feeling that "God, this life sucks!" She's also showing how, for some people, the choices they make become ways of fulfilling that prophecy (and she is, after all, Prophecy Girl). There are a scary number of humans out there who, without benefit of dying themselves (echoes of All That Jazz), still look at their situation and feel that death is probably the better alternative. If that is the metaphor at work here, I'm just as happy that it's heavily buried and that the arc looks to work Buffy out the other side.

[> [> [> Re: Metaphors (s5-6 spoilers, vaguely) -- ponygirl, 11:43:23 01/31/02 Thu

Buffy's leap in the Gift always worked for me as a plunge into the world of adulthood. Others have noted that Buffy's description of heaven in After Life could be taken as an idealized version of childhood - warm, safe, free from responsibility. This season seems to be her slow climb towards an adult life, which might as well be an entirely new life compared to the one that has gone before. Attendant with it is the despair, and existential crises that mark the early 20s for a lot of us (well into the mid to late for me!)

Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- Solitude1056, 11:15:17 01/31/02 Thu

Anyone else notice two minor but incongruent elements, Dawn-related, in DMB?

1. She appears to be cheerful and interactive with Buffy and Willow, despite last week's sour attitude and rebellious disinterest. (The only lip service to the previous bad attitude was when Amy remarked that Dawn wasn't pleased to see her, or some such variant.)

2. Since when did Buffy start showing Dawn body parts and not even thinking about warning her away? It's been a running non-funny gag that Buffy is overly protective at the drop of a hat, and now we have Buffy laying the finger on the counter right in front of Dawn? I was expecting either that Buffy say something, or would cover up the finger when Dawn walked over. But instead, she treated Dawn as if she were one more member of the Scoobies. I'd normally salute this development if it weren't so out of character for Buffy...

[> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- robert, 11:24:41 01/31/02 Thu

"... despite last week's sour attitude and rebellious disinterest."

I believe the episode "Gone" was 3 weeks ago. Presuming that the episodes run in real time, this should be enough time for the return of Dawn's cheerful disposition.

"Since when did Buffy start showing Dawn body parts ..."

Obviously right now! It had to happen some time.

[> [> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- Celialite, 13:48:48 01/31/02 Thu

And maybe Buffy had other body parts on her mind and just forgot to overprotect Dawnie.

All jokes aside. Isn't that the point. Buffy has not been in her right mind lately.

[> [> [> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- robert, 15:43:58 01/31/02 Thu

"All jokes aside. Isn't that the point. Buffy has not been in her right mind lately."

And even beyond that, I think this is also Buffy and the gang allowing an older, more mature, Dawn into the group. This goes along with the season theme of growing up. We've seen little examples of this throughout this season. Let us not forget the incident where Tara allowed Dawn to view the picture of the demon with the "horn" in the unusual position.

Solitude's original post complained that Buffy was out of character in showing bad things to Dawn. I don't think we can make that determination yet. If, however, Buffy reverts to her previous over-protective self in future episodes, then I will consider this an example of poor quality writing.

By my definition of quality, the characters may change over time, so long as the changes are all internally consistent. TV shows where the characters are vastly different each week, only to serve the episode plots, are examples of poor quality writing. In any TV series written by a team of writers, maintaining the internal consistency must be a Herculean task. For this I salute Mr. Whedon and forgive the minor lapses.

[> [> [> [> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- Mystery, 06:27:48 02/01/02 Fri

and if Buffy didn't show her the severed finger, she'd just learn it on the streets anyways...

hehe, Dawn got such props for that. I especially loved Tara's "Ok, fine" face. hehe.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- robert, 11:23:36 02/01/02 Fri

"I especially loved Tara's "Ok, fine" face. hehe."

Yes, with just a tiny amount of smurk!

[> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- Traveler, 16:41:11 01/31/02 Thu

Notice that Dawn's arm is out of its cast, so obviously some time has past. Also, she visably made an effort to go see if Willow was OK. It looks like Dawn has finally forgiven her. Finally, although Dawn certainly seems more cheerful and less surly than she was, there was still a dark undercurrent, for example when she pondered Buffy working in low skilled jobs for the rest of her life.

As for Buffy showing Dawn the finger... I can see your point, but Buffy was freaking out herself at that point. Maybe that could partially explain her lack of concern.

[> [> Re: Complaint about DMB: Dawn -- manwitch, 07:15:02 02/01/02 Fri

In the last five or six episodes, Dawn has seen a demon get its head chopped off, done research, staked a vampire, and kicked a hell thingy in the whatses. So maybe she's not really that far removed anymore.

Buffy seemed remarkably unconcerned about freaking Dawn out when B was invisible.

As to the tiff, they are also siblings. While some grudges last forever, most are set aside pretty quickly, out of both love and necessity. The point is made, and you go on.

In season 2, would a human stay alive forever in that hell dimension suffering torture and torment? -- god15, 12:18:06 01/31/02 Thu

Acathla will take a breath that will create a vortex that pulls everything on planet Earth into the demon dimension. There, any non-demon life will suffer horrible and eternal torment (this seems to imply that life on Earth will be sucked into hell physically, but will not die in the demon dimension).

[> Re: -- Shiver, 18:28:07 01/31/02 Thu

Probably not "alive" in the strictest sense. Since it's usually the souls that get tortured in hell dimensions, not the whole body/soul combo.

There's a good piece of fanfic you should check out on this very topic, "To See Once More The Light Of Stars". In which Buffy jumps into the portal WITH Angel. It owes a lot to Dante's Inferno.


After watching Next Weeks Trailer in SLOWMO (spoilers!!) -- neaux, 12:50:13 01/31/02 Thu

ok.. using quicktime and watching the trailer in slow-mo

2 things really are disturbing..

1. The girl who supposedly gets staked opens her eyes back up

2. Buffy stabs somebody/something without her SHIRT ON!!!

what is that all about!! dream sequence maybe?

[> Re: After watching Next Weeks Trailer in SLOWMO (spoilers!!) -- Deeva, 13:11:24 01/31/02 Thu

I went back and watched it all in slomo too. I read it differently though.

1. In the first few seconds of the promo Buffy fights and kills a hooded figure. That person falls and her head is tilted off to the side. The part where the dead girl opens her eyes, seems to be part of a dream sequence.

2. Seemingly topless Buffy (maybe she's wearing a tube top?). I think that this might be another sex with Spike scene.

Don't you just love how they take footage and just piece it together to make up something wayyyyyy more suspenseful? 'Felicity' last season was a big one on that. Implying things that didn't really happen.

[> [> Re: After watching Next Weeks Trailer in SLOWMO (spoilers!!) -- neaux, 13:38:29 01/31/02 Thu

Buffy in a Tube Top!! LOL.. the horror!!! rofl!!

[> [> [> Re: After watching Next Weeks Trailer in SLOWMO (spoilers!!) -- Sebastian, 15:02:07 01/31/02 Thu

no. no no. you guys.

buffy is fighting a hooded figure. THEN they show the girl watching from behind a tree.

THEN then they show buffy getting touched on the shoulder and buffy **turns in surprise and hits the girl**.

the girl is not the hooded figure. the hooded figure is a demon because you can see his demony face.

i taped the promo on tues and rewatched it several times in slo-mo to kake sure. its the same promo they have on the upn website.

- S <------ with lots of free time on his hands

[> [> [> [> ALSO..... -- Sebastian, 15:06:58 01/31/02 Thu

there is a scene at the end of the promo where buffy is kneeling by the couch and appears to be hugging or talking to someone. it looks to be tara or dawn, but its hard to say because the 'special effect words' get in the way.

also...does anyone think that buffy and dawn look even *more* like sisters since buffy did the chop-choppy with her hair?

just a thought.

- S

[> [> [> [> [> One thing you all seem to be missing/ignoring (SPOILER-ish) -- GreatRewards, 08:38:14 02/01/02 Fri

The TV Guide description of the episode says:

"Buffy investigates why Spike is suddenly able to attack her, despite the chip in his head.
Meanwhile, Jonathan, Warren and Andrew try to frame Buffy for murder."

I suspect that the "dead" girl might be another one of warren's bots!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: One thing you all seem to be missing/ignoring (SPOILER-ish) -- Duo, 11:14:58 02/01/02 Fri

I thought the dead girl looked like Amy.

[> I think that is not all .. -- AurraSing, 13:15:11 01/31/02 Thu

I just did a post over at the Trollup board regarding Buffy's dream and what it may contain.You might find it interesting.I think her dream may be very dark and after reading what you just posted I suspect she sees herself in the dream becoming more dark ala Faith....shudder...

[> [> Re: I think that is not all .. -- terrapin, 14:02:48 02/02/02 Sat

Did anyone else notice that it seemed to look like Buffy was kneeling and crying on Tara's lap. I think that Buffy confesses what is happening to Tara.

Magic & Drugs & Metaphors (vague Willowy spoilers thru DmP I guess) -- Liz, 15:32:53 01/31/02 Thu

I have been largely revolted by the magic = drugs metaphor at work these last 3 episodes. But it occurred to me just today that they've done this metaphor before.

When Giles revealed his past, it was about a wild group of black magic users who summoned demons for the pleasure and the high. It's a very obvious I-used-to-do-drugs kind of metaphor. But here is the difference: the story situation, the demon and magic and summoning, was more real than the metaphor. You could see the metaphor, but it was completely outside the story. It wasn't saying that all magic and demon summoning meant drugs. It was saying that this particular story is also an allegory for drugs.

That's the touch that's missing in the current story. The metaphor is more real than the actual object in the story. When you look at Willow you think "drugs," not a specific tale about magic using. The subtext has now become the text--even when it doesn't entirely make sense.

You can look at the latter half of season 2 as the story of losing your virginity to someone who you thought loved you but turned into a total ass. That's a real-life situation, and it resonates. But the actual story, the particulars of Buffy and Angel, is more real. It is more powerful. And the beauty of the writing is that sometimes the two are the same. In "Passion," for instance, you have Angel being obsessed with Buffy and trying to hurt her. You could also have an utter mistake of a boyfriend who is now stalking and threatening his girl. There are some scenes (the one between Joyce and Angel, for instance) where the dialogue could play either way. The metaphor and the story become inseparable, making the whole thing creepy on brand new levels.

"Reptile Boy" was not the best writing ever, but I though it also achieved this combination. Even "I Robot, You Jane" had that going, although it wasn't very well executed. In later seasons the whole thing got more complex and subtle, which is great--but it makes it hard for me to pluck out examples.

This is what the show seems to have lost recently. Oh, it's got some things going on--the invisibility in "Gone" was kind of neat, and "Life Serial" maybe had some interesting things happening. "All the Way" might have done it better than most this season, from the point of view of Dawn. But mostly this crafting of metaphor is missing. The real text, the real story, is the life-problems. There are occasional demons and occasionally they fit in with the problems. But they are not the story anymore. They are no longer the real plot.

Maybe that's necessary in the whole growing-up turn the show is taking. Maybe it's not. I can't really say. But I do think that it's lost some of its beauty. It's lost some of its power. They used to take harsh things and say them in a totally bizarre and creative way that would smack you in the face. And as much as I find the current plotline intriguing, and as much as they still have most of that humor going for them, I think they're missing that creative twist. And I'm really not sure they're going to get that back, even if Buffy herself does come to terms with life.

[> Re: Magic & Drugs & Metaphors (vague Willowy spoilers thru DmP I guess) -- Rattletrap, 06:02:02 02/01/02 Fri

This is where I've had problems with most of the complaints about the Willow addiction story line. The way this story has been handled seems, IMO, to be entirely typical of ME's handling of metaphors through the first 2 or even 3 seasons. The metaphors in BtVS have never been particularly subtle, with a few exceptions. I find "Reptile Boy" and "Beauty and the Beasts" to be far more heavy-handed than anything I've seen in S6. The main difference, as far as I can tell, is that the Willow story has been spread out over a couple of months instead of contained within a single 44-minute episode.

*drops his $.02 into the coffee can*


[> [> Re: Magic & Drugs & Metaphors (vague Willowy spoilers thru DmP I guess) -- manwitch, 07:04:10 02/01/02 Fri

TV shows have a life cycle, I always thought, 1st season you can see the potential, 2nd season hits it stride, 3rd is Golden, 4th has moments of brilliance but begins to get self-conscious and complicated, 5th season its just running on reputation. All my favorite shows have gone through that cycle. Xena and X-Files come readily to mind.

But Buffy has answered the call everytime and come up fresh, exciting, and interesting. I guess I'm an optimist. While I recognize some of the concerns that are consistently expressed on this board, I know that every time I've been concerned about something in this show it has been answered head-on in the most powerful and creative way I've ever seen. I just assume they will do it again. I assume that by the end of the season I will know what's going on with Buffy and Spike, why he can hit her, what role the 3 doofusses will play, yea or nay on the wedding, willow and tara, what willow did with that fawn, and what's going on with li'l Dawnie.

I've just never been dissatisfied with an episode of this show. There is always something happening.

I think if you look back over the course of the show, Willow's "problem," and at least Giles' concern over it has been apparent from at least the 2nd season. And it has been expressed consistently over and over. Willow's "fix the world to my liking" approach has also been in evidence from the very beginning. While its clearly incorporating the "drug addiction" theme into the magic metaphor, I don't think its only a metaphor for drug addiction. That's like saying Darth Vader is a metaphor for drug addiction. I think Willow's problem is one of identity. Its indisputable that she is powerful, that she is magically gifted, and that they would all be dead a number of times over without her abilities. But she is invoking incredible powers, and to paraphrase Mr. Campbell, is she going to be able to use those powers for human purposes, or will she be consumed and become an inhuman force?

Her sexuality plays into this in a huge way, and I am deeply intrigued by the prospect of seeing it play out. While the show gave ample foreshadowing that she likes girls, it also quite emphatically demonstrated that, unlike Tara, Willow has no aversion to the "timber." The Witch/Lesbian connection (beautiful in spite of being obvious since in the old days the Church accused women of being witches if they communed with the Spiritual World without use of a male mediator such as a priest) will have to get reexplored or redefined. What will happen to Willow's magic without Tara? What will happen to Willow's lesbianism without Magic?

And I think it all goes back to Restless. Willow is still that unhappy li'l outcast in the frumpy dress. So she's going cold turkey on Magic and cold turkey on Tara (not her choice but still) and becoming acquainted again (or maybe for the first time?) with who Willow is. She needs, I think, to realize that her contribution to the group is Willow, not magic. The magic is incidental. The last couple of eps have been great for her.

[> [> [> Re: Magic & Drugs & Metaphors (vague Willowy spoilers thru DmP I guess) -- Cecilia, 08:27:32 02/01/02 Fri

I would tend to agree with you on the fact that Willow's "problem" with magic has been explored over the course of the series, excepting season 1 of course. I also found the magic=drug addiction storyline very heavy-handed at first but I think I wasn't looking at it in the right context, which is the span of the entire series instead of the current season.

The realization really came to me when I read the interview with Marti Noxon. I can't say it was anything specific that she said, but when she spoke of the metaphors used in the series and how integral they were to the show it made me rethink my views. I've begun to think (and I mean just begun, because I've made no conclusions) at season 5 and 6 as one story arc instead of two. That puts it into a slightly different perspective, at least for me.

I think the reason I was put off this line of thinking before is because they never really carried storylines forward in that manner before. Yes, the series is heavy with continuity but their use of metaphor has been limited to either one episode or a small arc of a few episodes. When I pull back and look at everything from last season until the present it looks very different than just looking at S6 alone.

I don't know for certain if this is intended from the writer's point of view, but for me it bodes especially well for how things may turn out.

[> [> [> [> psychological vs. phsyical addiction -- yez, 10:45:44 02/01/02 Fri

manwitch, well put. And a nod to a fellow former (recovering?) Xenite.

I share your optimism and hope that Willow's "addiction" will be handled and resolved in an interesting way. But I do also share some of Liz's (and others') concerns with how it's been handled so far, namely, a little too literally and heavy-handedly.

My read on Willow's struggle -- which it looks like many viewers share -- is that, as you say, it's more about insecurity and power issues that have been there all along. Those issues probably had her primed for a psychological addiction to something that could deliver her from those insecurities.

But while psych. addiction is certainly an issue when it comes to substance abuse, IMHO, the show has relied too heavily on the more obvious characteristics of a *physical* dependence on a substance -- the physical withdrawal symptoms we saw Willow experiencing.

I'm not sure why they felt the need to go this route, to base Willow's addiction to magic on the typical substance abuse problem instead of something like a gambling addiction. I imagine one reason is that's it's easier and quicker to illustrate. Or perhaps they really do believe that, like alcohol, magic can cause physical dependence if overused. (And like alcohol and other drugs, some people are more vulnerable to the physical and psych. dependence.) Or maybe it's just that certain spells can be addictive; Rahk's (sp?) spells certainly seemed like an acid trip.

Either way, my thing is that I find Willow's psych. issues WAY more interesting than the whole physical dependence matter, and *that's* what I'd like them to explore more directly, instead of just one brief conversation where Willow mentions choosing between Super Willow and Just Willow.

In that interview with Noxon that someone referred to earlier, I was happy to see that she seems to share that same read -- the addiction stemming from Willow's issues with her "inner nerd." I just hope they don't think they're really exploring this now, because they aren't. At least, not to my liking.


What happened to Buffy's birthday? -- MayaPapaya9, 16:11:45 01/31/02 Thu

Isn't it usually the third or last week of January? Is it suddenly in February this year? If you could answer in a spoiler-free way, I'd really appreciate it. Like, "Oh yeah, her birthday's coming up...just a little later this year, but that's all I'm gonna say." Hehehehe thanks!

[> Oh yeah, her birthday's coming up...just a little later this year, but that's all I'm gonna say -- Darby, 16:23:19 01/31/02 Thu

[> Actually, it is coming up(in Feb. this year re:Marti Noxon interview)and that's all I'm gonna say -- Cecilia, 17:42:33 01/31/02 Thu

[> In two weeks -- vampire hunter D, 18:15:45 01/31/02 Thu

Second Week of February, about where it was last year

[> [> Buffy's birthday -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 09:20:41 02/01/02 Fri

So, after saving the world six (or is it seven) times, suffering the death of her mother and numerous friends and acquaintances, surviving enough close combat to make a Green Beret blench, wrestling with demons, gods and the U.S. Government, acquiring a brand-new teenage sister,

and dying and being resurrected herself --

-- she will now legally be able to buy a beer.

[> small Doublemeat Palace spoiler -- Diana Michelle Murray, 18:33:47 01/31/02 Thu

In Doublemeat Palace, Willow says that "Buffy's birthday is coming up."

Attention Vickie--Re: Roundtable Forum -- Wisewoman, 20:52:14 01/31/02 Thu

Hi Vickie:

Hope you see this message. I've been totally tied up at work the last week with organizing for a major conference and haven't been getting home until quite late.

I'm worried about the deadline for the ATPoZine, and I wonder if you have time to take a look at the RoundTable Forum and see if it can be put into some sort of order? I know you said you'd be able to help with it, and I'm sorry to foist it on you, but right now it doesn't look like I'll be able to get to it before mid-February, which I'm pretty sure will be too late.

Either post or e-mail me to let me know when you've seen this. Thanks!


[> Attention: Wisewoman -- Vickie, 22:43:12 01/31/02 Thu

Saw but cannot conquer. I do not know what is required. I actually have some time this weekend if someone will tell me what is needed. I will try to accomplish.

Out at work until late (theater tomorrow). Will check in the morning, and Saturday morning. Cannot actually do work until Sunday. If this serves, it is yours.

[> So I'm a nutcase -- Vickie, 22:46:44 01/31/02 Thu

here is me. Sorry.

Current board | February 2002