July 2003 posts
and Hart: A Treatise -- lunasea, 07:36:21 07/02/03 Wed
ME didn't completely throw out their play book when they created
AtS. This season over on BtVS, Joss brought back the First Evil,
a bad we saw first on "Amends." What is the source of
evil in the Buffyverse? In order to figure that out, all one has
to do is figure out what the theme of "Amends" was.
The bads on BtVS are demonic representations of whatever is going
on within the characters. ME doesn't just give us its version
of classic horror movies, like witches, invisible girl, Frankenstein,
Dracula, ghosts, swamp thing, werewolf, Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, etc.
It adapts each of these stories not only to its universe, but
to the theme of a particular episode.
Now that Angel controls Wolfram and Hart, it is a good time to
examine just what this entity is. Not just its role in the plot
and how it has been a thorn in Angel's side for several seasons,
but more important to discovering what it is, its role in the
theme which can be shown by looking at what episodes it appears
in and why and even when it disappears. Editing is also key.
Just a warning this is realllllllly long. Season 1 is almost 10
pages alone. I will try to summarize the important point of each
season in one post following the episode-by-episode exploration.
[> Episodes 1.01-1.15: the
Power behind Power -- lunasea, 07:38:40 07/02/03 Wed
The early episodes: The Power behind Power
First time we see a representative of Wolfram and Hart is in the
season premier. Angel tries unsuccessfully to help his first helpless.
Even though Tina is dead, Angel is going to go after the vampire
that killed her, Russell. It is pretty much a vengeance gig at
this point. Cut from that to Russell talking to a lawyer about
Tina AND setting up Cordelia. The lawyer is helping to cover up
Russell's crime. As the lawyer tells Russell "Wolfram & Hart
is a full service law firm, Mr. Winters. It is our job - to see
to it that our clients lives run more smoothly."
So who are Wolfram and Hart's clients? Russell is a rich, powerful
"investment guy." Gunn puts their clientele best "Oh,
I get it, I get it. You all can cater to the demon, cater to the
dead man, but what about the black man!" (Blind Date) As
much as Angel helps the helpless, Wolfram and Hart helps the not-so-helpless.
We get another glimpse of their clientele in "Home."
Lorne says to Preston when looking over their Entertainment Division
"I don't think you have to tell me what you represent here,
young man. I know. Evil. Pure evil in theó Huh. Which is
also apparently everyone I've always wanted to meet." Wolfram
and Hart don't represent evil. As Holland tell Lindsey "It's
not about good or evil - it's about who wields the most power."
(Blind Date) (or at least what they consider to be power)
Back to "City of." We see Wolfram and Hart one more
time. Doyle is patching up Angel and Cordy is worried about Russell
coming after her. Cut to a board room. The lawyer is mixing legitimate
business talk with talk about tracking down Angel. Lindsey actually
tries to block and deter Angel, even threatening him. (It is quite
amusing and I am laughing as I remember it, especially because
I know what it coming up, one of the best send off lines ever.)
The business card was a nice touch, like since Angel could do
what he did, Lindsey is looking for new business. Russell tries
to explain how things are done in LA and gets his send off. As
Angel walks away, he puts the business card back in Lindsey's
pocket. Lindsey's reaction to this is great. He just picks up
his cell phone and says "Set up an interoffice meeting for
4:00. Seems we have a new player in town. - No, no, there is any
need to disturb the senior partners with this. Not yet."
One more important edit. From this, we cut to Angel calling Buffy,
but not being able to talk to her, yet. Angel's vengeance gig
wasn't satisfying because as he put it "I killed a vampire.
I didn't help anybody." Doyle shows him he did help Cordelia
and Angel accepts his mission.
In "City Of" Russell is the obvious bad. He is representative
of all the things that Angel will have to kill, those that prey
on the helpless. Wolfram and Hart are set up as his foil. Hello,
Angel Investigations. We help the helpless. If that is you, leave
a message. No other statement shows the contrast between the two
organizations better. The way that phones are used on this show
are important. They aren't just plot devices or props.
Wolfram and Hart are missing from the next couple of episodes.
There is no powerful creature for them to represent. In "Lonely
Hearts" the demon hasn't mainstreamed yet. The importance
of establishing contact will later be examined with Wolfram and
Hart in "Untouched." This episode is much more personal
than just using it for manipulation to gain power. Angel's lack
of faith in himself, which is shown several ways in "In the
Dark" doesn't have much of a contrast with Wolfram and Hart.
Besides another sub-story would take away from Spike time. Spike
makes the perfect foil for this episode.
In "I Fall to Pieces" Melissa does what she is supposed
to when Dr. Ronald Meltzer starts to harass/stalk her. She files
a report. The system should protect her now. They cannot, because
Dr. Meltzer's lawyers are Wolfram and Hart. They file a restraining
order against her, much like a trial lawyer will victimize a rape
survivor. Melissa is helpless and needs Angel's help because the
system cannot help her. It cannot help her because 1) Ronald is
a freak that no jail could hold and 2) Wolfram and Hart helps
him. Wolfram and Hart just get a mention in the episode. No lawyer
actually shows up to undo Angel's hard work. It sets up their
flavor a bit more: "They're the law firm that Johnny Cochran
is too ethical to join."
Angel says " It's not about Melissa, it's about rage. This
guy is too messed up to deal with a real woman and he can't stand
that. So he creates a fantasy about a girl he barely knows. But
eventually even she fails him. So he has to hurt her, because
when he looks at her all he sees is how useless he is, how damaged..."
This idea of creating a fantasy to deal with things runs throughout
the episode. Angel won't charge clients because of this fantasy
he has about a hero that has nothing to do with practical reality.
Cordy's need for "certain - designer - things" is another
fantasy. Angel's character development this episode is when it
does become about Melissa for him and not just the fantasy of
being a hero.
This ties to Wolfram and Hart. It never is about the clients with
them. It is about power. The various lawyers all have their reasons,
(we only really go into Lindsey and Lilah's is mentioned) but
they are also all messed up and can't deal with life. They create
this fantasy about how what they do actually makes things better
for them. Holland is so screwed up that he tells Lindsey "And
we wield a lot of it here, and you know what? I think the world
is better for it." (Blind Date) This doesn't work and Lindsey
eventually attaches to Darla and later leaves the firm. Lilah
attaches to Wesley and who knows what would have happened to her.
It was a small mention, but it fit with the theme wonderfully.
Otherwise, why mention it at all?
No evil lawyers in "Room with a View." Later Gavin will
be a pain when it comes to Angel and the Hyperion Hotel, but there
is no play between helpless/powerful in this episode, so no need
for Wolfram and Hart. "The past, she don't let go, does she?"
will be revisited using Wolfram and Hart for an entire season
and then some. The play will actually be how helpless are we over
the past, or rather how not we are.
In "Sense and Sensitivity" an anger management guy that
the police have to use because of, you guessed it, Wolfram and
Hart, renders the police helpless so that Tony Papazian (aka Little
Tony) can escape. The theme of power and being helpless really
run throughout this episode, so Wolfram and Hart have to be a
presence. "Sense and Sensitivity" is a lot like OMWF.
Magick causes people who are normally closed to be open about
their feelings. Hilarity then ensues.
Kate is helpless to find Little Tony, so she turns to that Champion
of the Helpless, Angel. Little Tony, after he is caught, turns
to Wolfram and Hart to help him escape. In "I Fall to Pieces"
Wolfram and Hart victimize Melissa even more by filing a restraining
order against her. They use similar tactics on Kate in "Sense
and Sensitivity." This time Lee is the lawyer on deck. I
really hate Lee. He's a slimy little toad.
Not sure if we get any indication that Little Tony is supernatural.
Just your run of the mill gangster. Angel drops his guys pretty
quickly, so no demons there. Wolfram and Hart cater to general
power. They aren't prejudice against the mystically challenged.
They will use their mystical resources to help their regular clients.
However, they have no problem dropping him like a hot potato when
"The senior partners feel that you have become a liability.
We can't waste energy on you when there are more pressing issues
At the end of the episode, the spell wears off and people go back
to being closed. The cut from Lee terminating the phone call and
thus Wolfram and Hart's relationship with Little Tony is to everyone
pulling a Xander from "The Pack" -- "did I say
anything to you?" "I'm a little fuzzy myself."
It ends with Kate's dad not playing along, but saying "Don't
- don't say anything. You make an idiot out of yourself, embarrass
me in front of the guys. You don't bring that up ever again. As
far as I'm concerned - it didn't happen." and showing how
hard this hits Kate.
"Bachelor Party" and IWRY also have no Wolfram and Hart.
The Angel/Buffy saga and why he left her has nothing to do with
power or the helpless. Wolfram and Hart go after Angel's view
of the world, not his view of himself. This distinction is important.
They are missing from "Hero" as well. "You never
know your strength until you're tested" is not something
Wolfram and Hart are about. No Wolfram and Hart in "Parting
Gifts." Again not a theme they would be involved with.
We don't see them for quite a while. There really isn't a client
and ME is busy cementing the new core group. What Angel faces
in "Somnambulist" is nothing compared to what they have
in store for him next season. "Expecting" and "She"
are just lame. "I've Got You Under My Skin" is a beautiful
sentiment. "I was just trying to hold my family together"
and the darkness that threatens it will be really revisited at
the end of the season as Vocah tries to destroy Angel's family.
"The Prodigal" is revisited when Lindsey returns to
his roots next season.
[> Episodes 1.16 -1.20:
Things get more personal -- lunasea, 07:40:39 07/02/03
The Middle Episodes: Things get more personal
We get our next view of Wolfram and Hart in "The Ring."
We've seen Lindsey and we've seen Lee. Now we get the next face
for Wolfram and Hart, Lilah. Lilah, quite simply put, just drips
with delicious juices. Lindsey is someone incredibly competent,
but doesn't come off as particularly evil. Lee, as I said earlier,
is just a slimy toad. Lilah is the Angelus of Wolfram and Hart.
She is a major overachiever who is into style. She is the perfect
face for this episode.
What an amusing spin to Angel's mission of helping the helpless.
The demons that are forced to fight in the ring aren't what you
would typically consider helpless. These are big hunking demons.
There is also some not-so hunking demons in there. The way the
system is rigged is that after 21 kills, a demon is freed. This
system favors the strong demons and the weaker ones are killed.
Thing is all of them are helpless against the system, until they
unite. This episode is all about power, so of course Wolfram and
Hart has to have a nice part.
Enter in Lilah and her offer to Angel. Lilah does so enjoy the
fights. That is the kind of gal she is. She likes champagne. She
likes being rich and acting it. Lilah has real flair. Angel has
attracted her attention. Giving him a glass of champagne was such
a nice touch. As Angel will later say, she always was such a closer.
Thing is, she has met her match in Angel. You can't kid a kidder
and you can't charm a charmer. Any interaction between these two
is always yummy.
Lilah's offer basically boils down to "picking the battles
you can win," which means looking the other way when it comes
to Wolfram and Hart. Angel can still help the helpless, only not
the ones that need it the most. Angel turns her down with as much
flair as Lilah offered it and goes back to try and help the demons
trapped in the ring. (a side note. This offer is not the same
one made in "Home.")
This episode really sets up Wolfram and Harts antagonism with
Angel. When Lilah's offer is rejected, when she goes back to the
ring, she bets against Angel. Lindsey gave Angel his card in "City
of" and when Angel rejects it, he places a call about a new
player in town. Lee and Angel have no interaction. The episode
opens with Cordy wondering why Wolfram and Hart isn't in Demons,
Demons, Demons database. Up to this point, they have been more
behind the scenes. This will all change in a couple of episodes.
Before the major Wolfram and Hart show down with Angel that the
remaining episodes will become, we have a nice filler in the form
of "Eternity." In "The Ring" we got the style
that is Lilah. In "Eternity" we got to see the style
that is/was Angelus. Again, the theme doesn't fit Wolfram and
Hart, so they are absent.
Then comes "Five by Five." Wolfram and Hart plays two
rolls in this episode. First, Angel tracks down a thug named Marquez.
This thug is needed to testify in a case involving, you guessed
it, Wolfram and Hart. Lindsey is the first lawyer on deck. We
get to see Wolfram and Hart in action. He actually says "and
I will be filing a grievance for this remark with the A.B.A this
After he loses, the scene is great. First, Lindsey uses a headset,
not a normal phone. Lindsey isn't a hands on sort-of guy. I love
"I hate failure when there is no one else to blame it on."
Toady Lee is the one that has "found the solution to our
problem," but he doesn't have any "people skills"
so he doesn't get to follow through. "If you behave I'll
let you ride in the Limo." Go Lilah!!! We have all three
Associates in this episode.
Marquez is the first representation of facing your demons. The
next one is a bit more interesting. Angel has a new helpless to
help. Her name is Faith and she is a Slayer. Lee's whacked idea
is to hire Faith to kill Angel. Lilah approaches her and Lee does
ride in the limo. Lindsey isn't to be seen.
But he is the one to offer their deal to her. It was his case
that was blown. As much style as Lilah has, Lindsey is the wonder
kid at Wolfram and Hart. Lilah and he work seamlessly together.
Toady Lee gets his face smashed into a table repeatedly. He really
doesn't have the people skills of Lilah and Lindsey. Lilah and
Lindsey are both unfazed with how their colleague is treated.
Angel as a lawyer was funny, but Angel knows exactly where to
go to find out what Faith is up to, Lindsey's office. Lindsey
shows that he really is in control of his world. Angel tries to
rile him, but he remains completely calm and in control of the
situation. Just as Wolfram and Hart filed a restraining order
against Melissa and earlier in the episode said they would be
filing a grievance with the Bar against the state's attorney,
Lindsey threatens Angel with charges of slander and breaking and
entering. Angel resorts to threats, which still don't phase Lindsey.
Instead Lindsey trumps him. You are one pissed off vampire, I'll
raise you tons of security guards and the police. "So, -
despite the fact that I'm sure it would make an entertaining evening
watching you fight for your life, - not to mention the fortune
I could make off the video - I do have a dinner." I have
to admit, I love Lindsey. ME even remembered to undercut the exchange
at the end. Goosebumply goodness all around.
In "Five by Five" Wolfram and Hart tries to use Faith
against Angel. Angel sees through what she wants and reaches out
to her. This naturally pisses Wolfram and Hart off. They are trying
to use her. She has the potential to become the powerful that
they help, but when she turns flips out, she actually becomes
the helpless. As powerful as she is, her self image renders her
helpless in a manner of speaking. In "Sanctuary," when
she is now being helped by Angel, they have another problem to
We get another scene with the three Associates, though is starts
out with Lilah and Lindsey. Lee, the moron who came up with the
idea, comes up with the equally moronic idea to have her killed.
All three are also present when they talk to the new assassin.
It is always fun to watch Lilah in action, especially when it
is with Lindsey.
When "The first assassin kills the second assassin - sent
to kill the first assassin, - who didn't assassinate anyone until
we hired - the second assassin to assassinate the first assassin,"
Lindsey takes control of the situation. Just like he handled Angel
in the previous episode, he "moved this fight to our own
turf." Wolfram and Hart relies on the system to take care
of things. We have a Bigger Bad (since it really runs through
multiple seasons, much like the Hellmouth) that will use ANY resource
at its disposal.
Kate and Lindsey interacting is fun, too. Not quite Angel and
Lilah, but they don't have quite the style and are much more pragmatic.
Lindsey is a lot more subtle and Kate is a lot more blunt. That
is the last we see of Wolfram and Hart we see in the episode.
When Kate does have Angel arrested, it almost looks like Wolfram
and Hart has finally won. They don't.
Everything up to this point has been Wolfram and Hart servicing
their clients. In "Five by Five"/"Sanctuary"
the powerful that Wolfram and Hart is servicing is itself. The
helpless is Faith and through flashbacks Angel. The story of these
two preternaturally physically powerful creatures being rendered
helpless because of their self-image and the real power of compassion
is made even more powerful by how ineffective the machinations
of Wolfram and Hart were. Wolfram and Hart may be into power,
but it is by not understanding true power that they are undone.
Wolfram and Hart don't really fit into "War Zone," except
for one thing. David Nabbit is rich. He seems to be someone they
would service. There is a big difference between David and the
clients of Wolfram and Hart that we have seen: Russell, Ronald,
Little Tony. David is a nice shy unassuming nerd, much like Willow
used to be. He has power with his money, but he isn't into it
and really doesn't exercise it. Even with his money, he is one
of the helpless that Angel helps, not one of the not helpless
that Wolfram and Hart do.
[> Episodes 1.21 & 1.22:
Crossing the Threshold -- lunasea, 07:41:58 07/02/03 Wed
The finale: Crossing the threshold
This lack of Wolfram and Hart sets up two episodes in which they
are key, especially Lindsey. When I have trouble figuring out
just what the central theme of an episode is, I like to either
look at the bad or some seemingly minor sub-story. The bad for
"Blind Date, " Vanessa Brewer, is interesting. She is
blind, except she can see movement. She sets up the horrific crime
that is so bad that Lindsey wants out, killing some kids, but
any assassin could do that. Why a blind one?
Of course, once Vanessa is caught and tried, Lindsey is her lawyer.
Angel trips her up, by returning her sunglasses to her, but Lindsey
is so phenomenal a lawyer that it ends up being a hung jury. We
get a scene of Wolfram and Hart celebrating. Toady Lee and Lindsey
are in the hall looking in as the higher ups talk with Vanessa.
Lee is being slimy and Lindsey is invited in by Holland. As cool
and collected as Lindsey is in earlier episodes, Vanessa really
does unnerve Lindsey. He will later reek of fear as he explains
things to Angel.
Wolfram and Hart has favorites. Why that is will give us some
insight into it. Lindsey is that favorite son. Lee gets a bullet
to the head. Not that I completely disagree with the choice. What
Holland says to Lindsey shows a bit about why the firm is interested
in Angel also.
First important thing:
Holland: "It's your age. You're a young man. You've hitched
your wagon to our star. Oh, and it's a bright star. - But now
you're starting to feel a little 'Is that all there is?"
Lindsey: "Sometimes you question things, but I mean it's
Holland: Yeah, I did a lot of crazy things when I was your age
- searching and all. - Took me a while to realize how the world
was put together and where I belonged in it. - And actually the
world isn't that complicated. - It's designed for those who know
how to use it."
Lindsey: "Yes, sir."
Holland: "Don't give me that 'yes, sir' crap. I want you
to think about these things. - You're not going to be happy until
you find your place in the scheme of things.
I said earlier that Wolfram and Hart doesn't go directly to a
person's self image. It goes to their view of the world and their
place in it. It doesn't say "you are evil, come join us."
Holland talking to Lindsey cuts to Angel rather upset that Vanessa
got off. He throws his phone against the wall. Again, it is more
than just a prop. Angel is as hands on as he can be, but his effectiveness
is limited (like banging your head against the wall) because "It's
their system, and it's one that works" Holland was talking
to Lindsey about finding his place in the world and Angel feels
completely out of place in the legal world. He even briefly misses
being Angelus, something that will come into play later when Holland
shakes up his world view even more.
From this we go to Lindsey showing up at AI. Angel is still not
happy with the legal world and Lindsey is his main opponent in
court. As he tells Lindsey "Why don't we just save the lawyer
talk?" He doesn't see Lindsey as someone helpless who needs
his help. He is still the enemy, the powerful that allows other
powerful to hurt his helpless. When Lindsey mentions the kids,
Angel has a real helpless to help. Angel identified with Faith
and reached out to her, thus saving her. That won't happen with
Lindsey this season.
Angel enlists the help of Gunn in something that doesn't look
like it has anything to do with the theme. The firm has shamans
that detect when a vampire crosses the *threshold.* In this episode,
Lindsey has some choices to make. He is on the threshold. When
the alarms go off, the guards think it is because of the vampire
that Gunn's crew has brought in. Even how Gunn taunts Wolfram
and Hart fits with what is going on with Angel and Lindsey. A
nice piece of writing that was both entertaining and foreshadowed
Lindsey staying with Wolfram and Hart.
We get some more interaction between Lilah and Lindsey, showing
why Lindsey is the favorite son and not Lilah at this stage in
the game. Lilah has style and flair, but Lindsey really knows
how to play the game. He plays it so well that Angel does get
the disks they need. Lee continues to show how clueless he is
and Lilah shows how accustomed to this world she is.
Then we see how Wolfram and Hart really works. Toady Lee's betrayal,
which really isn't much, creates a messy carpet. If anything,
Lindsey's actions impress Holland. We get another important speech
from Holland, that says how Wolfram and Hart think.
Holland: "Lindsey, this is a delicate moment. - I nod to
Phil behind me - and he's gonna put a bullet in your head."
Lindsey: "I-I didn't want to lie to you. I didn't - want
to betray you. I just wanted out."
Holland: "Hm. Well, then you're in a crisis, son - crisis
of faith. - Do you believe in love? - I'm not speaking romantically.
- I'm talking about that sharp, clear sense of self a man gains
- once he's truly found his place in the world. - It's no mean
feat, since most men are cowards and just move with the crowd.
Very few make their own destinies. They have the courage of their
convictions, and they know how to behave in a crisis."
Lindsey: "Like now?"
Holland: "Like now. You have everything it takes to go all
the way here - drive, ambition, - excellence - but you don't know
where you belong. And until you do - I guess we both have some
important questions to answer. - Now, my first one is - do I nod
- to my friend behind me? - No, - I don't. Because I know you,
and I know a little something about character. - I think what
you actually need is a few days off to think about it. And I'm
sure once you have - you're gonna do the right thing."
Lindsey: "I can - I can go."
Holland: "You can go. (Lindsey slowly gets up) Lindsey -
I believe in you. - Look deep enough inside yourself - you'll
find that love."
Love. Holland actually uses the word to describe that feeling.
Makes my skin crawl. Angel better described it earlier when he
was remember what it felt like to be Angelus. This feeling is
important to understanding Wolfram and Hart. Power is great. There
is nothing wrong with power. What really matters, though, is what
is done with that power, what motivates someone. This will drive
the Darla arc next season, so I will save it for then.
The flow of the fight with Vanessa is important, as is her particular
talent. Currently Lindsey is immobilized by his own questions.
He wants out, but he will move back to Wolfram and Hart. If he
didn't move by returning the disks to Holland, he never would
have gotten "hit." He moves to get the children out
and Vanessa attacks him. Angel is the one that figures out how
Vanessa "sees" and manages to distract her enough so
that Lindsey can get to the children. He doesn't get them out
though. He comforts them. After Angel manages to kill Vanessa
with her own stick, then the children are safe.
What the children are is important as well. "Together the
children have the power to see into the heart of things."
"A holy triumvirate. As they mature, so does their power."
The characters on Angel are all 20 somethings and not that mature.
The show is about that maturation. Lindsey lacks the power to
see into the heart of things. This is why he latches onto what
Holland says. As Lindsey matures, he will find this power and
will eventually leave Wolfram and Hart. This show foreshadows
what will happen season 2.
Holland gives one more important speech at the end.
Holland: "Lindsey, - haven't you learned anything? No one
has their own life. We're all part of something larger."
Lindsey: "Like Wolfram and Hart."
Holland: "I handpicked you when you were a sophomore at Hastings
- not because you were smart - not because you were a poor kid
who had to do better than anyone else - but because you had potential
- potential for seeing things as they are. It's not about good
or evil - it's about who wields the most power. And we wield a
lot of it here, and you know what? I think the world is better
Lindsey: "Look, I didn't come back..."
Holland: "Why did you come back? To return some disks? Take
a moral stand? - I don't think so. You walked in that door and
called me by my first name. - You never did that before. You wouldn't
have had the nerve. - But you're different now. You stood up to
us and won. - Do you know how many people have that much nerve?
- I can count them on one hand. - I need people like that working
Lindsey after a beat: "You're offering me my job back?'
Holland: "Oh, no. I'm offering you a new job. - A permanent
one, with a thundering raise and ungodly benefits. In fact, I'm
offering you this very office. I'm going upstairs. - What I'm
offering you, Lindsey, is the world. Now I know you pretty well,
and I'm betting that you're gonna take it."
Holland picks up the box with his stuff and walks towards the
Lindsey: "You may not know me as well as you think you do."
Holland: "As I've been trying to tell you, that's a decision
that each person has to make for himself. - If you want it it's
yours. If you don't - walk out this door. - I'm going upstairs
From this, we can really see how Wolfram and Hart thinks. They
think this deeper understanding of the way things are has to do
with who wields the most power. As anyone who understands Buffyverse
canon knows can tell them, it isn't about power, but what you
do with it. You find your place in the world with the Prayer of
St. Francis, not with nerve.
The blindness of Vanessa is tied to movement. The blindness of
the kids is tied to a deeper understanding. These two things form
the battle that is Lindsey McDonald. The theme of movement and
understanding are throughout the episode in many ways. Even the
phone comes back into play as Lindsey picks it up in his new office.
One more episode to go for season 1 and it is a dozy. "To
Shanshu in LA" (raise your hand if you are sick of hearing
the word Shanshu on the board)
Angel finds out that Lindsey was made Jr. Partner. Vocah is raised
by Wolfram and Hart. I have to admit that seeing lawyers in lawyer
attire at raisings is funny. I amuse easily. The relationship
of Wolfram and Hart to Vocah is not a client. He uses the word
"us." Lindsey will also use the same word. That word
is very important because of the theme of family that runs through
the episode. Wolfram and Hart becomes Lindsey's family of sorts.
Holland is above Lindsey who is above Lilah, but Vocah gives orders
to them all. The oracles refer to him as a warrior of the underworld
and a lower being. She says that Vocah wants Angel weak. Vocah
is in on the really big picture.
Angel spends the episode trying to protect and help his family.
Lindsey takes the scroll and continues the raising when Angel
interrupts it. As strong as Angel is in his commitment to Cordy/Wes,
Lindsey's commitment to his new side is shown with the force he
reads the scroll with. When Lindsey is rendered unconscious by
the whirlwind that causes the raising, he is abandoned by his
After Angel kills Vocah, he still needs the scroll to help his
family. Lindsey won't give it to him. As he puts it "I see
that you are either the one with the power - or you're powerless."
He has sided with Wolfram and Hart, because he sees them as power.
Because of this, he loses his hand. Never really was a hands on
sort of guy. Now when he actually takes action, he loses his,
showing how not powerful he really is.
[> Season 1: The Purpose
of Power -- lunasea, 07:43:12 07/02/03 Wed
The purpose of power
Wolfram and Hart, season 1 were a wonderful contrast to Angel's
mission to help the helpless. Wolfram and Hart help the not helpless.
Why? Because they are evil is too simple an answer for ME and
this wonderful show. Holland specifically says it isn't about
good and evil. It is about power.
Angel uses his power to help the helpless because he cares about
them. Jane Espenson said the difference between the soul and the
chip is the heart behind them. Angel has a really big heart, the
heart that makes him a champion. Even when his is on his vengeance
gig in "City Of" it isn't because something was done
to him. It was because he cared so much for Tina and feels responsible.
Doyle tries to get him to share his feelings and Angel's response
is great. "Doyle, I don't want to share my feelings, I don't
want to open up. I want to find Russell and I want to look him
in the eye..Then I'm going to share my feelings." The PTBs
know how to get to Angel, through his heart. Angel sees power
as a vehicle that he can use.
Same thing with Wolfram and Hart, but they question is what are
they using it for? Evil? What is that? What is important to Holland
and Lindsey? Holland calls it "Love" it is so important.
"that sharp, clear sense of self a man gains - once he's
truly found his place in the world. - It's no mean feat, since
most men are cowards and just move with the crowd. Very few make
their own destinies. They have the courage of their convictions,
and they know how to behave in a crisis." (Blind Date) Peace
of mind. It is all any of us really want. We have all these nagging
questions and conflicting desires. Holland's manner (sorry I couldn't
resist) really shows how much peace of mind he has found.
Holland believes "we are all part of something larger."
He believes when we understand this, when we can see things as
they are, we can find our place in that and find that sort of
clarity. He is right. The children in "Blind Date" can
see into the heart of the matter and their power increases as
they mature. They are a wonderful metaphor for the human condition.
What fights this is as Holland says just *moving* with the crowd
and not standing by their convictions, symbolized by Vanessa Brewer.
The hard part is figuring out what those convictions are. In "Blind
Date" Lindsey tries to help and protect the children. The
idea of killing kids is so horrific to him that he goes to Angel
for help. Lindsey actually does have a conscience. He also remembers
as a child of 7 figuring out "Either you got stepped on or
you got to stepping and I swore to myself that I was not going
to be the guy standing there with the stupid grin on my face -
while my life got dribbled out..."
"The world is designed for those who know how to use it"
Holland tells Lindsey. It is designed for the steppers, like that
makes the stepping somehow OK. That is the way the world works,
so you have to play along. That is the game after all. Where do
you belong? Are you a stepper or someone who gets stepped on?
Lindsey buys into this world view and becomes one of the steppers.
Contrast that with Angel. In "Consequences" Angel gives
his view of the world to Faith. "Time was, I thought humans
existed just to hurt each other. But then I came here. And I found
out that there are other types of people. People who genuinely
wanted to do right. And they make mistakes. And they fall down.
You know, but they keep caring. Keep trying. If you can trust
us, Faith, this can all change. You don't have to disappear into
Wolfram and Hart realize how powerful Angel is. As Holland tells
Lindsey "You stood up to us and won. - Do you know how many
people have that much nerve? - I can count them on one hand. -
I need people like that working for us." Angel is one of
those people. They value the strength of his convictions. They
just want to change what those convictions are. How they want
those convictions changed shows what the Senior Partners are after.
Why was Darla brought back? How will that bring Angel to Wolfram
and Hart and tear him from the PTBs? That will be answered Season
[> Thread preservation
-- d'Herblay, 16:54:31 07/02/03 Wed
[> Interesting, intriguing,
and a little fearful prayer to dread Voynak -- fresne, 17:04:18
Voynak is hungry!
Flee for your lives! -- HonorH (packing Honorificus' clothes),
09:17:18 07/02/03 Wed
It's devouring posts at a phenomenal rate! JBone, where are you?
Did Voynak get you while it was snarfing down your contest? Talk
Aaah! Here it comes!
My Prada shoes!
No time to look back! Run, H, run! Even demons aren't safe!
[> But we've sacrificed
so many posts to him already! When will his hunger be sated?!?
-- Rob, looking up to the sky, bellowing, "WHY, GOD, WHY?!?",
09:22:08 07/02/03 Wed
[> Just leave me behind!
Save yourselves! -- ponygirl, stumbling over a pesky tree
root, 09:25:55 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> never! we're all
in this together! we all make it...or none of us does! are you
with me? -- anom, 18:45:25 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> You can not
escape. You nor your little pony either! Fleeing is Futile.
-- Master Katin le Posts, 19:16:01 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> master
*k*atin? sure you're starting w/the right consonant there?
-- anom, 22:21:28 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
*C* would have been too easy. -- Ed A. Bull, 22:47:25
[> [> [> [> [>
[> "c"? *not* the consonant i was thinking about....
-- anom, 07:20:13 07/03/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> ::quietly putting anom and a "b" in locked
bathroom with the Andrew-cam:: -- A. Temmup, 11:33:12 07/03/03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> i believe this is *yours,* not-so-gentle
viewer (voy-er? voyeur?) -- anom, holding "b" w/tweezers
from medicine cabinet..., 17:00:01 07/03/03 Thu
...through splintered bathroom door
Huh. 1st time I ever had to continue the "name" field
in the message! Voy is not only hungry but arbitrary...& apparently
prurient [holding smashed Andrew-cam in other hand...no tweezers
Now where was I? Oh yeah--back to the fleeing!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> voy....now.....eying....fleeing anom....mmmMm....for
next.....random.......mastiCation... -- Indie Justin, 20:42:13
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> ha! you've fallen into my trap!
-- anom, 22:00:27 07/03/03 Thu
Every time you answer me...YOU KEEP THIS THREAD UP THAT MUCH LONGER!!!!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> You'll choke on my alter-ego...don't
say you haven't been warned! -- The First Naughty, 22:50:03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> So what exactly are the
First Naughty's powers? -- Rob, 09:09:09 07/04/03 Fri
[> Where's a Slayer when
you need one?! -- Valheru (being like a man...and hiding),
09:29:13 07/02/03 Wed
[> Quick, someone toss me
a lumpy message on redemption to slow Voynak down! -- Rendyl,
holding out for a Hero, gender nonspecified, 09:46:27 07/02/03
[> Suggestion? Write incredibly
long posts...it chokes on them;-) -- s'kat, 10:48:40 07/02/03
See KdS's posting thread below...
although that does not explain how the Book Melee got archived
as fast as it did. I'd say it was me that it didn't like to eat
- but it swallowed Finn's jacket thread pretty fast and has swallowed
other threads KdS has responded to.
Voy...who can understand it? (shrug)
[> VOY CRAVES VIRGIN PROSE.
NEEDS SACRIFICIAL LAMBIC TO SATE LITERARY LUST. -- thus speaks
the High Vriestess of Voy, 13:44:54 07/02/03 Wed
pitiful pedantic peasants!
Voy craves virgin ideas. simple, rich posts written in the smallest
Voy chokes on eight syllable words when a tasty three letter word
would suffice! Voy gags when forced to feed on ancient, rotting
vocabulary. hates dusty tome quotes of long dead writers. feeding
Voy the words of others gives Voy gas.
VOY WANTS YOUR IMAGINATIONS! NOT OVERUSED COLLEGE PARROTING.
VOY NEEDS FRESH VOICES.
VOY KNOWS YOU HAVE FRESH VOICES IN YOU BUT ARE HIDING BEHIND THOSE
GIGANTIC CRUSTY CEREBELLUMS!
Voy punishes and destroys. Voy bleeds.
So spaketh The Voy through it's Most Loyal Vriestess.
[> If I could...just...move...my...arm....
-- O'Cailleagh, 14:49:05 07/02/03 Wed
[> (Ironic) Thread Preservation
-- d'Herblay, 17:55:25 07/02/03 Wed
[> Perhaps Voy is "in
heat". Are there any Voyettes nearby? -- Jane Goodall,
20:30:19 07/02/03 Wed
[> Hide your babies and
your beadwork! -- Plin, trying to be helpful, 23:54:34
[> [> Help us, O Mighty
First! Hear our piteous pleas! -- mamcu, 09:35:30 07/03/03
[> [> [> The First
is in Arizona. Watching opening weekend movies apparently.
-- deeva, 10:25:14 07/03/03 Thu
[> VOY doesn't seem to eat
threads about itself. We may have found its ach. heel. --
WickedDetective (Hi VOY! Gee, you look nice today VOY), 11:38:18
-- Rina, 10:20:22 07/02/03 Wed
I'm not condoning SMG's "bitchy" or "selfish"
behavior, anymore than I'm criticizing it. But from reading these
past posts, it is apparent that because she is a celebrity, she
is not allowed to harbor negative traits - something that every
human being on this earth possesses. Even I can be "bitchy",
as some people in this forum will agree.
[> Well said- if Buffy can
be so flawed yet so lovable, who are we to begrudge Sarah a few
faults? -- Alison, 10:24:17 07/02/03 Wed
[> Re: Judging Sarah
-- Buffy fan, 10:43:09 07/02/03 Wed
Just briefly delurking to say if Sarah wasn't a beautiful talented
blonde with a perfect figure, no one would be giving her all this
[> [> Not true....
-- s'kat, 10:55:51 07/02/03 Wed
Can we say Martha * cough* Stewart??
David*cough cough* Caruso??
Or how about Shannon *cough cough* Dougherty?
Or Roseanne *cough* Barr???
Truth is - if you are aggressive, ballsy, and have lots of drive
and occassionally step on toes with your cocky over-confidence
- people want to take you down a step. They call it the Tall Poppy
Syndrom over-seas I believe.
Being pretty, blond has zip to do it. Successful? Quite a bit.
Although that may be in the eye of the beholder...personally I
don't see having the role of Daphne in Scooby Doo Too and a role
in the next comedy by the folks who did Not Another Teen Comedy
as that sucessful, yet it is far more successful than approximately
65% of actors, so probably is pretty dang successful - hence the
Tall Poppy Syndrom. Curious to see what happens in ten years?
[> [> [> It's successful
if you consider the fact that she wanted the parts -- Finn
Mac Cool, 11:33:11 07/02/03 Wed
There's more to being successful than being in big, Oscar caliber
movies. A big sign of success is the ability to choose which movies
you want to be in and which you don't. According to what I've
heard, Sarah enjoyed playing the role of Daphne, as well as working
with her husband, so I don't think she's taking a part in it because
she can't find anything else.
[> [> [> [> Re:
It's successful if you consider the fact that she wanted the parts
-- s'kat, 12:36:05 07/02/03 Wed
Yep, there is more than being in Oscar calibrated roles.
But it's also good to be in movies that will lead you to better
parts. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Annisten, Angelina Jolie, Jennifer
Lopez, and Kate Hudson and Kirsten Dunst are examples of role
savvy actresses. Jennifer Love
Hewitt, Neve Campbell and Courteny Cox are examples of non-role
savvy actresses. To their credit - it is really hard to tell what
will be a great role and a lackluster one from a script. Actors
don't have much control over films. The bright ones go for directors
not just scripts - with a good savvy director, you're golden.
According to Shivers magazine and some other interviews last year
- SMG did not choose the part, FPJr. did and talked her into it.
Her first response - was - that's a cartoon. He talked her into
it b/c he wanted to spend more time together. She agreed and enjoyed
more than expected.
But was upset by the bad reviews. FPjr. told her it was for the
kids not the reviewers.
If she can make a career out of it and move into better parts,
it will be good. If she gets stuck - than SMG could have the same
wonderful career as Neve Campbell and Sandra Dee, and Troy Donahue,
Jennifer Love Hewitt, and Rob Lowe, Molly Ringwald, Ally
Sheedy, - as opposed to the careers of Kristen Dunst,
Reese Witherspoon, Kate Hudson, and Christina Ricci.
The difficulty in Hollywood - is you don't get to choose your
roles - you choose the roles offered to you. Or that look like
possibilities. It's not all that different than hunting a job
or interviewing for one, the only difference is you have an intermediary
or agent negotiating for you.
SMG looks like she's following in Neve Campbell and Jennifer Love
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: It's successful if you consider the fact that she wanted
the parts -- shambleau, 13:24:05 07/02/03 Wed
It's possible that her film career won't be that distinguished,
but the acting opportunities she's been given on BtVS are so far
beyond what most actresses get in movies that she's already had
a great run.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Would completely agree with that. -- s'kat, 18:34:07
To name just a few:
Once More with Feeling
Weight of The World
Who Are You
I Will Always Remember You
Yep, she has had to do farce, slapstick, singing, dancing, tears,
laughter, surreal, silent movie, angst, pretend to be another
actress in her own body...and pulled it all off brilliantly and
all by the ripe old age of 26.
Lucky chit. ;-)
Have to admit, SMG has done a marvelous job over the years.
If she hadn't would ANY of us be still watching the show??
Shame she never got an EMMY for it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Would completely agree with that. -- manwitch,
19:05:15 07/02/03 Wed
its funny, cuz while her movies aren't that great, Buffy is spectacular.
I loved Intervention, the distincion between Buffybot and Buffy.
The same distinction in Bargaining. Of all the characters in the
show that died, I confess I grieved more for Buffybot than any
other. I thought there was a lot to explore there.
But Who Are You is brilliant. It is just plain as day that its
Eliza Dushku in Buffy's body. That's pretty impressive. Eliza,
who I also love, doesn't do near so good a job as making us think
But in terms of sheer acting power, the two minutes of Prophecy
Girl in which Buffy learns that she's gonna die is unrivaled in
the series. The only moment that to me even compares is when Dawn
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> OT: Actually, re: "Who Are You"
I would argue the opposite. -- Doug, 19:34:14 07/02/03
Eliza didn't get a lot of interaction with the other characters
in that episoide but when it came down to tone and body language
she *was* Buffy. Sarah was...playing someone with all of Faith's
This isn't intended as a dig against Sarah, this is just my opinion
on that episode.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Would completely agree with that.
-- s'kat, 20:27:29 07/02/03 Wed
its funny, cuz while her movies aren't that great, Buffy is
spectacular. I loved Intervention, the distincion between Buffybot
and Buffy. The same distinction in Bargaining. Of all the characters
in the show that died, I confess I grieved more for Buffybot than
any other. I thought there was a lot to explore there.
Every time I get in a bitchy anti-SMG or anti-Buffy mood, I think
back to Intervention and Bargaining and the Buffybot.
I LOVED the Buffybot. I also grieved more for her...than I thought
possible. Gellar's acting of that role shows range and comic timing
- and is made even more evident by the comparison to other robots
such as John Ritter's Ted, George HErtzeberg's Adam, and April.
The Buffbot ruled.
SMG proved her ability with that dual role in both Intervention
and Bargaining. Hard to pull of, I'd think.
Truth is - she's gotten some bad movie roles. And I can't completely
fault her for this, and whenever I do, I'm glad people slap me
on the wrist for my stupidity - getting a good ANY good movie
role in that industry is like finding
a gold coin in a haystack. There's a reason so many good, well-established
actors have flown back to tv and the stage in recent years - both
male and female. Look at what's in the cinemaplex? How many really
good 20 something female roles can you name off the top of your
head this year?
How many critically acclaimed ones? Heck MArsters whose a man
and in his 40s and attractive - is being very picky, he gets sent
scripts, but after BTVS, he's picky about the roles. See he knows
that the actor doesn't make the movie, the director/script does.
So good actors try to pick movies based on directors (hard to
do, since this changes or isn't always available info when they
get hired) and on scripts (also tough since many scripts get re-written
numerous times afte the actor is hired.) An actor might fall in
love with a role in a script - only to see it gutted after they
The trades are filled with stories of actors stuck in roles they
hadn't bargained on and trying to save face after the movie hits
You're lucky to get a good role. Roles like Buffy the Vampire
Slayer for writer/directors/producers like Whedon
come once in a blue moon.
That said, I don't blame Gellar for calling it quits.
She was working 20 hour days, five days a week. Rarely saw her
husband. Didn't have a life. HAd to deal with tabloids
and press. Also the creator of the show tells her after she films
the first episode of S7 that this is *his* last season regardless
of what she decides. Whedon told Sarah, he wasn't doing another
season of Buffy, that he was burnt out on the show and the character
he'd created (according to BOTH Whedon and Gellar's interviews.)
Also after LEssons she didn't really see him again until the last
four episodes or possibly Chosen. That's a lot to deal with.
I don't envy her. I don't envy Hollywood celebrities or actors.
The money? Sure. The fame? Nope.
I give SMG a great deal of credit for making it as far as she
has in a tough industry at such a young age. I don't envy her
the next ten years though - this industry isn't nice to aging
starlets. And the competition is fierce for so little choice in
Her best parts in films were probably her earliest ones:
Jakes Women (which was a play)
I Know What You Did Last Summer
She hasn't really done a good movie role since. What she needs
is another villain - something to break typecasting.
Gellar plays villains very very well. The First Evil was at it's
best when Gellar played it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Ah, the Buffybot... -- Alison,
20:33:25 07/02/03 Wed
I still haven't forgiven the Scoobies for leaving her to die at
the hands of those demons. SMG did a perfect job playing her,
and she was a wonderful contrast to Buffy- and a continuation
of the duality theme. Sniff. She deserved a better send off.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> ME TOO! I'm so sad for the Buffy
Bot! I can't believe she came to such a cruel end. -- Rochefort,
21:33:30 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't forget the various
"Restless" Buffys! -- shambleau, 09:13:09 07/03/03
I loved how each Scoob's dream had a slightly different Buffy
and I adored them all. SMG was fabulous as Flapper!Buffy, as enigmatic
sandbox sister/goddess and as innocent-for-the-slaughter daughter
I'm a sucker for Wishverse!Buffy, too. Cleveland's answer to Lara
Croft was a beautiful creation and the hardened Buffy we saw there
had its echoes in Generalissima Buffy, in the Buffy who'd kill
Anya, and in S6's alienated Slayer.
[> [> [> [> She
also sought out the role in "Romantic Comedy," as far
as I heard. -- Rob, 12:36:21 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Not true....
-- Rina, 07:55:56 07/03/03 Thu
You're judging what her career will turn out, because of her next
[> [> [> [> Actually
on all of them -- s'kat, 12:54:36 07/03/03 Thu
She's done over six movies and all of them rank between C and
B in both critical and box office quality. ED, Seth Green, Marc
Blucas, and Hannigan have better resumes right now - movie wise.
HEre's SMG's list.
1. I know what you did last summer (supporting role)
2. Scream 2 (small bit part)
3. Cruel Intentions (huge role and probably best part critically)
4. Simply Irresistable (panned and bombed at box office)
5. Harvard Man (bomb at box office, (1 wk tops), difficult to
find on video, critically mixed - C movie, and not a really stand
6. Scooby Doo (panned critically, did well at box office - but
the stars were Mathew Lillard and cji dog, not Daphne, which SMG
played. SMG didn't sell Scooby Doo - the cartoon sold Scooby Doo.
So no one would base box office on her name.)
7. Scooby Doo II (same here - assuming it does well...)
8. Romantic Comedy (by the team that did the spoof Not Another
Teen Movie which was panned)
Compare to American Pie (considered now by many critics a classic
teen comedy and hit many best of lists when it came out. Hannigan
made the IT list in Entertainment Weekly b/c of doing American
Wedding - the final in the triology) My Stepmother Was An Alien
(also well-known and one of Hannigan's earlier roles)
Compare to the Austin Powers Movies, Italian Job, which Seth Green
Compare to True Lies, This Boy's Life, Bring it On!,
Wrong Turn, Lost Souls, and other roles by Dusku
You are only as good as your last movie and people in the industry
look at box office, the role and how it affected box office, and
how that role could translate into another role. Getting type-cast
is really easy and right now, Gellar is in a lot of danger of
[> [> [> [> [>
Not necessarily disagree'in -- fresne, 13:53:48 07/03/03
Just gotta say, I loved Simply Irresistible.
It's Water for Chocolate, only happy. And that ballroom. With
clouds. And the magic crab.
Okay, so it's More Two Gentlemen of Verona than it is say Mid
Summer Night Dreamery. But um, yeah. Glances around. Silence.
Sound of crickets. yeah.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Not necessarily disagree'in -- s'kat, 14:03:36
I liked it too, much much better movie than either Scream 2 or
But the box office audiences and critics? Despised it.
Unfortunately, my taste and the general mainstream public's
are seldom the same. Hence the reason I'm not the head of a major
studio, I guess. ;-)
(Actually the same is true for TV, Btvs and Ats - my favorite
shows are wayyy below the top ratings getters.
Btvs never got more than a 4.9 in ratings. To put this in perspective?
Firefly was cancelled on Fox for ratings of 5.0 and higher.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I'm with you on Simply Irresistible. One of my favorites
as well -- Brian, 03:06:09 07/04/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Another vote -- tomfool, 09:40:34 07/04/03 Fri
I liked this one too. I had never seen Buffy at the time and was
only vaguely aware that SMG was that girl on BtVS. I thought she
did a fine job in the role. It was all very charming in an undemanding
sort of way. Hey, and magic crabs.
[> [> Re: Judging Sarah
-- manwitch, 17:24:15 07/02/03 Wed
Also if she wasn't the star of a show that sparks thousands of
internet discussion threads with millions of words posted about
female empowerment, feminism, and overcoming patriarchy.
Who isn't difficult to work with? Obviously there are people who
are especially difficult. Maybe she's one of them. But in Buffy
she comes off like a really gorgeous and wonderful girl that I
Since the chances of my having to deal with her in the workplace
are relatively slim, I'm just thankful we got this show. I feel
bad that she makes poor choices with movies. I wish she would
go for supporting roles in indies and demonstrate that she's the
But she's already made her mark. Who really cares about the other
roles Leonard Nimoy played, you know?
[> [> [> Sarah's best
movie -- manwitch, 17:32:57 07/02/03 Wed
Speaking of which, I saw a movie that arguably includes Sarah
Michelle Gellar's best performance in a movie. Its called "She's
All That" and also stars Rachel Leigh Cook, who has the body
of a waif and a rack like a moose in october.
But, and here's spoilers for the end if you haven't seen it, in
the big ending where the bad dude is bragging to everybody in
the men's room that he's gonna score with Laney, and the pudgy
friend comes out of the stall, well here's the thing. That boy
had been in there through the whole scene. So you can figure what
he's been doin'. And then he comes running out and immediatley
runs out into the prom to Anna Paquin and puts his hand on the
table, right near the food, and then the next time we see him
he's got dear Anna's hand in his as he battles through the crowd.
But the dude never washed his hands.
Talk about a plothole. That freaked me out for the whole rest
of the movie.
Sarah really has to make better choices.
[> [> [> Re: Judging
Sarah -- Rendyl, 18:20:46 07/02/03 Wed
***Who really cares about the other roles Leonard Nimoy played,
You had to ask. (grin) In 1991 Nimoy gave what (IMO) was his best
performance in 'Never Forget'. I remember thinking at the time
that it would be awful to have suffered and survived the concentration
camps just to turn around and have people claiming it was all
fake. It is a good movie and he is very good in it.
Ren - who still loves Mr Spock, but knows Nimoy can stretch -
[> [> [> Heh...I bet
Nimoy cares...typecasting must be a frustrating thing in a 40
year career -- Random, 19:00:37 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> A small anecdote
-- Sophist, 08:32:22 07/03/03 Thu
I recently hooked my parents on Buffy. They have now watched through
S4 and just started S5 (thanks to Doc). About a week ago, I was
talking to my father about it and he said "SMG really is
Buffy. I can't imagine anyone else in that role." I agree.
[> What's in a slur? A slur
against any other person... -- skyMatrix, 12:45:18 07/02/03
(It should be obvious, but I will nonetheless state that this
is not at all a rebuttal to you, Rina, but more a "to whom
it may concern.")
I'm just gonna say this. Everytime I read someone who says how
SMG, a woman with some amount of power and autonomy, is a bitch
due to what they know of her apparent negative or pushy behavior,
I just hope that person is able to recognize the same negative
behavior in a male actor of similar or greater stature, and call
that actor a bitch too. Yes, the original meaning of the word
suggests "female," but the thing that makes me uncomfortable
about the constant levying of the "bitch" charge against
women like SMG suggests to me that a man would not be attacked
for doing the same things. After all, men are supposed to have
power and autonomy, so if they are pushy or hateful to get it
done, well what can you do, boys will be boys, etc. Recognizing
the impossibility of fighting the tendency to call certain women
bitches, I would instead suggest that we call men the same thing
when they do the same thing. That's just my own personal, peculiar
way of trying to knock down the double standard, the semantics
might bear some working on.
I now conclude my sudden return to both the board and my beloved
feminist soapbox. ;)
[> [> Re: For something
completely different - Try SMG in Harvard Man -- Lilly of
the Valley, 06:30:53 07/03/03 Thu
[> I thought her best work
was that old commercial with Oz.. -- WickedBuffy (when they
were about 5 yrs old), 11:40:27 07/03/03 Thu
[> [> I may be alone
in this, but I really liked Cruel Intentions. And I thought Sarah
was great. -- Alison..prepared to be mocked for her Cruel
Intentions love, 13:47:45 07/03/03 Thu
[> [> [> Re: I may
be alone in this, but I really liked Cruel Intentions. And I thought
Sarah was great. -- O'Cailleagh, 14:29:31 07/03/03 Thu
I also enjoyed Cruel Intentions, Sarah played a wonderful bitca
(maybe she wouldn't have been so bad as Cordy after all), and
Ryan Phillipe was great too. And so was Pacey-from-Dawson's-Creek!
[> [> [> [> Nope,
not alone... -- Kate, 14:49:45 07/03/03 Thu
I love this movie!! I was so excited when I heard it was coming
out b/c "Dangerous Liaisons" is still one of my favorite
movies of all time to this day. So a teen, modern version?...So
And I thought it totally delivered. I mean it is definitely a
little more trashy (in a very good way) than either of its predecessors
or the original text (it was a book, right?), but I thought there
were some outstanding performances, SMG's being the best. I had
just started watching "Buffy" when the movie came out
and wasn't all that involved in the show yet. But when I saw SMG
in this movie, I was blown out of the water by her performance.
What I love about her as an actress is no matter the role or movie
(great or not), she always gives 110% and a great performance.
[> [> [> [> [>
Me, too. May not be "art" but I've seen it over 20
times. Can't say that about any art film! -- Rob, 14:53:04
[> [> [> [> [>
[> "we deliberate on exactly which scene of the movie
Rob has really watched over 20 times" -- ** Coniunctio
**, 11:36:08 07/04/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I'll never tell! ;o) -- Rob, channeling the
girl from that bad Michael Douglas movie, 11:58:21 07/04/03
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> um, Rob, why are you flashing us your boxers?
-- Aplodontia Rufa, 12:44:19 07/04/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Guess I'm easy. What can I say?
-- Rob the Impure, 15:31:42 07/04/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> I loved
it too! Mmmm Ryan Phillipe -- Miss Edith, 14:58:05 07/04/03
I have it on DVD! And I have the CD lol. I thought Sarah played
a great bitca agreed, and the acting and the script seemed fine
to me. I saw it when it came out in the cinema, and me and my
friend had a good laugh over Pacey having gone blonde.
[> [> [> [> [>
Me too. I love the movie way too much. Besides "that scene"...
-- Rob, 15:30:42 07/04/03 Fri
...the evil and twisted expression on SMG's face when Selma Blair
whispers in her ear about what Ryan Phillipe "did" to
her, that switches to calm concern is worth the price of the movie
alone. She has great comic timing in this film. Her expression
when Selma (sorry can't remember the character names at the moment--I
swear, I've seen it over 20 times!) suggests they have a slumber
party alone always cracks me up.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Me too. I love the movie way too much. Besides "that
scene"... -- Alison, 19:40:03 07/04/03 Fri
me too! that and the secret society dance...always gives me the
For Rob, re.
eye-gouging (gen. s7 spoilers) -- Anneth, cursing the Eeeevil
that is Voy, 17:34:38 07/02/03 Wed
In DMP, Pat acts as a sort of personification of the "emotional
safe distance" between Buffy and those who love her. Upon
Buffy's return to Sunnydale, both Joyce and the Scoobies experience
the conflicting emotions of joy and relief that she's returned
safely, and anger and resentment that she left in the first place.
They all hold Buffy at a sort of emotional arm's length in order
to keep their emotional reactions to her return under control.
Pat, with her superficial, glib commentary, represents that emotional
distance. Upon killing Pat and thus ending the threat that she
represents (both as Zombie Queen and emotional personification),
Joyce and the Scoobs are able to reconnect with Buffy, to regard
her not with their eyes but with their hearts. They can begin
to see her on the "new wavelength" you mention.
In STSP, Willow is so terrified of not being accepted back into
the fold that she actually renders herself invisible. The Gnarl
is another physical manifestation of that fear - what spectacular
timing that a skin-eating demon should terrorize Sunnydale on
the exact day that Willow returns! Even though they learn of the
Gnarl and its eating habits, as well as Willow's return and invisibility,
before Buffy gouges the creature's eye(s?) out, Willow doesn't
reappear until Buffy has defeated it. Like Pat, the Gnarl is the
physical manifestation of the emotional distance between the Scoobies;
by blinding it (and thereby defeating it), the Willow is reunited
with her friends both physically and emotionally. They can literally
see each other on the same plane again, whereas this metaphore
was merely hinted at in DMP.
Xander's eye-gouging in DG, however, doesn't immediatly signal
an emotional reconnection between the Scoobs, as it had in DMP
and STSP. I think, though, that the same lesson is there, only
in a more extended fashion. ME simply doesn't resolve the emotional-distance
conflict as quickly ni the final S7 arc as it had previously.
The immediate effect of Xander's casualty is a physical and emotional
break between Buffy and the Scoobies. But I think it doesn't do
the final five episodes of S7 justice to think of them as individual
episodes; the themes that are explored are stretched out over
all five, more like chapters in a book than five individual short
stories. By End of Days, the Scoobies have reconnected with Buffy,
which ultimately leads to their "victory" (however you
wish to think of it) in Chosen.
Or, to put it another way, Xander's eye-gouging was the catalyst,
arguably, that sent the SiTs and the Scoobies off the deep-end
and got Buffy out of the house. Once out, she reconnects emotionally
with Spike, while everyone else reconnects emotionally with -
well, whoever. Buffy's time with Spike allows her to go retrieve
the scythe, rescue the SiTs, and walk back into her house like
she owns the place. Once back inside, she is able to reconnect
with everyone else - Giles, Faith, the Scoobies, even the SiTs.
She then slays Caleb and intuits the plan that will defeat the
FE - which is, in a way, a emotional connecting with all potential
slayers. Buffy is finally able to walk away from her pedestal,
not because it's been taken away, but because everyone else is
elevated to her stature. (well, not literally!) And this all occured
because of Xander's eye-gouge. Arguably, anyway...
The main difference between DG and STSP/DMP is that in the earlier
two, it's the physical bad guy who must be blinded in order to
allow Buffy and the Scoobies to reconnect emotionally. In DG,
one of the Scoobies who must suffer this. But I believe that there's
an argument to be made that the ultimate Big Bad in S7 was the
emotional distance between Buffy and the others; it's the thing
that the FE worked so hard to exploit, after all. In a sense,
then, that makes the Scoobies themselves the bad guys. So the
fact that one of them must lose an eye in order for the gang to
"see" each other again isn't too unreasonable.
Anyway, I hope that this theory isn't too ridiculous. There are
a couple of other eye-gougings that you might want to work into
this theme, Rob; I believe during S4. (Which works in favor of
my theory, actually, being as Scooby-divisiveness was such a major
issue in that episode. Actually, check out Doomed - it's kind
of a 'S7 in a nutshell,' at least superficially.)
[> Great theory! I love
it. -- Rob, 17:39:59 07/02/03 Wed
I never noticed how many eye-gougings have happened on the show
before until it happened to Xander and I reviewed earlier eps!
If you'd like to expand your theory on to any eye-gougings from
other eps, I'd love to hear it...and on "Doomed". I
can always save them for notes for future eps.
[> [> Also... --
Rob, 17:43:11 07/02/03 Wed
...I hadn't realized how important the loss of Xander's eye was
to the events in the last 4 episodes, but when you look at it
that way, you really can see it as the catalyst for a great deal
of what ended up happening.
[> [> [> Re: And doesn't
The Master gouge out a minion's eye in season one? -- Lilly
of the Valley, 19:25:43 07/03/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> Oh,
yes..."You have something in your eye!" -- Rob,
14:42:52 07/04/03 Fri
[> Dead Man's Party Annotation
Thread...Continued -- Rob, 18:02:15 07/02/03 Wed
Got more notes? Please respond!
[> [> Re: Dead Man's
Party Annotation Thread...Continued -- ponygirl, 19:57:03
Here ya go, Rob!
Willow: I think that went very well. Don't you think that went
Cordelia: He didn't try to slit our throats or anything. (nods)
Willow: Hey, did you do that little half-smile thing?
Buffy: (sighs) Look, I'm not trying to snare Scott Hope. I just
get my life back, you know, do normal stuff.
Willow: Like date?
The pressure on Buffy seems to be about her dating "normal"
non-threatening boys. Does Buffy wonder if her friends really
want her to be normal?
The Bronze. "The Background" by Third Eye Blind begins
to play as the
camera approaches the door. Cut inside. The camera pans past several
couples dancing slowly to the music. It comes to rest on Buffy
Angel. They hold each other close and look deeply into each other's
as they slowly dance.
Angel is wearing a white shirt in this scene, a sure sign that
there's going to be blood. Black just hides the stains too wellÖ
At a nearby table Oz, Willow, Cordelia and Xander watch them dance.
Their faces are devoid of any expression.
Are they sitting in judgment? They watch without approval or disapproval,
but they're still in Buffy's dream, perhaps reflecting Buffy's
fears that her friends will reject her for her relationship with
Angel. Or possibly Buffy's deeply hidden anger about her friends'
role in her killing of Angel. Anger that never surfaces until
Cordelia: What was the last thing that guy danced to, K.C. and
Here's some info from the Official KC and the Sunshine Band Homepage:
KC And The Sunshine Band is one of the most recognizable names
from the disco craze of the '70s. KC, otherwise known as Harry
Wayne Casey garnered a total of nine Grammy nominations, winning
three of them, including two for his work on the Saturday Night
Fever soundtrack, and an American Music Award as well.
KC's records literally sold millions (75 million to be exact)
keeping him on a winning streak that lasted well into the eighties.
KC became a one-man hit factory for South Florida's T.K. Records,
helping several artists scale the charts with material he composed.
KC shares a distinction with The Beatles as the first artist to
have four #1 singles in the span of one year: "Boogie Shoes",
"Rock Your Baby", "Get Down Tonight", and
"That's The Way (I Like It)". Notwithstanding, KC's
other hits like "(Shake, Shake, Shake), Shake Your Booty"
and "I'm Your Boogie Man" still stand as milestones
of the disco age.
The vampire's appearance references the vampire in WttH that Buffy
was able to identify by his out of date clothing.
Faith: Can I borrow that?
In Dirty Girls Faith's return is also marked by her taking a stake
from Buffy to finish off a vampire. Here in this first appearance
it sets up Faith as someone who is taking Buffy's status - her
weapon - from her.
Kakistos: Mr. Trick, talk to me.
Mr. Trick's name literally suggests that he is a trickster figure.
However his role as someone who works for others, first Kakistos
and later the Mayor, seem to make him more of a Puck figure, someone
who spreads mischief rather than true change. Mr. Trick works
most definitely within the system, he doesn't challenge authority,
but rather seeks to use it in his own self-interest. Trick strikes
me as the personification of pure capitalism, order and technology
are useful for personal gain, any sort of ideology beyond self-interest
Joyce: (faces her daughter) Look, I-I know you didn't choose this,
know it chose you. (takes a breath) I have tried to march in the
Pride' parade, but... (suddenly very solemn) I don't want you
Another suggestion of the Slayer as a metaphor for a gay teen.
Joyce's reaction also emphasizes why Buffy cannot share Faith's
lighter approach to slaying - Buffy is very much aware of how
her actions hurt those she cares about.
Faith: Wow. Think you can take me?
Ooh, the beginning of the Buffy/Faith slashy subtext! Faith's
words echo Buffy's more than slightly sexual challenge to Angel
Faith: You (punch) can't (punch) touch (punch) me!
Faith's pose and actions here will be repeated in WAY and by Buffy
in DT. One suspects that the things that she insists can't touch
her are actually her own fears and self-loathing.
Buffy: You know, come to think of it, I-I don't think I've given
chance to... Buster Keaton. I... I like what I've seen of him
I... I think it might be time to see a little more.
A very similar conversation - substituting "coffee"
for Buster Keaton - will take place between Buffy and Ben in IWMTLY,
another dead before it got started flirtation.
Faith: (finishes packing) You don't know me. You don't know what
been through. I'll take care of this, all right? (heads for the
An echo of Buffy's statement last episode in DMP. Both she and
Faith are keeping all their pain inside, not allowing others to
see it. Are they in danger of turning their pain into something
precious, something that separates them from the rest of the world?
Trick: If we don't do something, the Master could get killed.
He considers that for a moment, and decides that wouldn't be such
Trick: Well, our prayers are with him.
Trick really is the most modern and practical of vampires. His
lines seem to reference Spike's exit line in B2, but unlike Spike
or Kakistos, Trick has completely sublimated his passions into
perfect business sense. Buffy and Faith may be trying in this
episode to contain their emotions, but Trick has mastered it -
he displays nothing beyond self-preservation. The irony of his
name is that the trick he plays is on his employer.
Willow: Giles, I know you don't like me playing with mystical
but I can really help with this binding spell.
Another example of Willow as a person who needs to do something
when faced with a problem, she sees Buffy's pain and wants to
help in the only way she can - by doing a spell. It's a good quality
but it could be a foreshadowing of Willow's eventual desire to
find solutions through magic.
A moment later a bright beam of light illuminates the ring on
It gets more and more intense, and the ring begins to vibrate,
madly against the marble. Suddenly the room is awash with a blindingly
bright white light emanating from a dimensional portal opening
ring. A body falls through and hits the stone floor hard. The
fades as the portal closes, and a naked man is left lying there.
unsteady as he tries to get up, but he is too weak to do more
his face. It is Angel, looking very dazed. His breathing is shallow
labored, and he shivers violently as he looks up at the room around
Very ominous choice of music here - it's the same that was used
when Angel lost his soul at the end of Surprise.
[> [> [> Oops! These
annotations are for Faith Hope & Trick! -- ponygirl, confused
and sleepy, 20:04:50 07/02/03 Wed
[> Oops! I meant...Faith
Hope and Trick Annotations Continued -- Rob, 18:05:28 07/02/03
[> [> You did that on
purpose! Errr . . . I mean "Thread Preservation"
-- d'Herblay, 18:10:02 07/02/03 Wed
[> [> [> Are you implying
that I posted twice to keep the thread on the board longer? I'm
insulted! -- Rob, who can also be ironic ;o), 18:14:12
[> [> [> [> Okay,
okay, NOW I am! ;o) -- Rob, 23:38:00 07/02/03 Wed
[> Evil eye -- ponygirl,
18:31:54 07/02/03 Wed
Interesting points Anneth! I think it's significant too that Evil!Pat's
power is to freeze people in their place, something I think the
Scoobies want to do in this episode. They want to pretend nothing
has changed, that they can go back to their old state and relationships.
[> Another theory on eye-gouging
-- KdS, 02:14:28 07/03/03 Thu
Considering that Joss and quite a few other writers are comic
When the psychiatrist and moral crusader Frederic Wertham launched
his campaign against comics in the fifties, a big part of his
attack on the gratuitous violence element was what he saw as comics'
excessive and particularly repulsive portrayal of "injury
to the eye". He actually kept a list of every single scene
in which someone got blinded or poked in the eye or threatened
with eye damage, however peripheral it was to the actual plot.
Neil Gaiman suggested in an interview in The Sandman Companion
that comics do have a special fascination with eye injury because
of the symbolism in a totally visual medium. JW has talked quite
a buit about TV as a visual medium, and attacked dialogue-dominated
"radio with pictures".
Or it could be because it's, you know, especially gross.
[> An even better ridiculous
theory on One-Eyed Willie -- neaux, 05:23:38 07/03/03 Thu
I posted waaaay back when the episode HELP premiered that the
initial plot was ludicris. A bunch of high school boys acting
as pirates, chasing wealth and well Old Coins like doubloons.
In chat I said HELP was totally referencing The Goonies and One
Well.. could we say this episode and all the other episodes in
season 7 were foreshadowing Xander's ultimate Disfigurement?
I believe so.
[> [> Re: An even better
ridiculous theory on One-Eyed Willie -- Corwin of Amber, 06:33:14
We COULD say that...but I still think it's reaching. Given the
treatment it got, I have this picture of the writers sitting at
a conference, unable to think of anything good.
UNKNOWN WRITER: "Hey! Let's poke Xander's eye out! We haven't
had a use for him for like, 3 seasons anyway!"
WRITERS: "Yes! Lets!"
Actually, a scenario like that explains a lot of puzzling things
about the season.
UNKNOWN WRITER: "Hey! Let's have Giles and Anya go visit
a big floating eyeball!"
WRITERS: "And then drop it completely!" *evil cackling*
[> [> [> I don't think
it's reaching. 2 big eye references... -- Rob, 08:08:56
...the same season Xander loses one? Nah. I don't buy that they're
not connected in some way. Giles and Anya visited the Eye of Beljoxa
to gain enlightenment, just as the loss of Xander's eye eventually
ends up leading them to find. The removal of Gnarl's eyes likewise
reveals a truth to them, in that case, Willow.
And I actually loved the way they handled the loss of Xander's
eye. That one scene with Buffy, Willow, and Xander was one of
the best ones ever on the show, and also, there's the fact that
it is arguably the straw that broke the camel's back in getting
Buffy kicked out in Empty Places, which in turn led her to the
Scythe and got her to have that conversation with Spike, which
helped her a great deal. Xander may not have had as much screentime
as we'd like, but I loved the way his eye was...um...handled.
(or a less gross way of phrasing that heh heh)
[> [> [> [> "Do
you thumb my eye at me, sir?" "I do thumb your eye at
you, sir!" -- Anneth, possibly a little too happy about
the long weekend, 08:31:31 07/03/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Heh heh! Speaking of the Bard and Eyes... [ATTN: Bard-philes!]
-- Rob, 09:56:54 07/03/03 Thu
...I haven't read "King Lear" in years. I was wondering
if this eye symbolism could in any way be applied to the de-eying
of [was it York?]. I don't remember the specifics, but this would
be an interesting literary reference addition to the notes. I
could just check my Complete Works myself when I get home, but
if anyone has any analytical goodness about this, lay it on me!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> enormous squishy frontal Lear-lobes -- Anneth, 12:43:22
My former college roommate, who has about half of everything Shakespear
wrote memorized, has this to say about the eye-gouging in Lear:
Err... I think it just lets Gloucester be a foil to Lear, since
loses his sight but not his insight, and the opposite for Mr.
suffering making you a better person; yeah.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> So bingo! -- Tchaikovsky, 03:39:40 07/04/03
Xander is Buffy's side-kick in Season Seven, as always- but also
the person who sees- the analogy of the hammer to Willow, Dawn's
'Potential', the speech in 'Dirty Girls'. While Buffy has lost
her insight- the balance that will allow her to win the final
battle, which she finally gets back in 'Chosen', so Xander has
all of his. Like Gloucester, this ends up being a bad thing physically.
The one who sees loses his eyes. Of course, the cruel women are
using Gloucester as little more than a plaything in Lear, while
it appears that Xander is specifically targetted by Caleb, so
the analogy breaks down a little here. But Xander as foil to the
insight-challenged Buffy with Gloucester foil to insight challenged
Lear seems to fit in.
[> [> [> [> ::pondering
what Xander would look like with the Eye of -- WickedBuffy
"representing the other side of the brain", 11:57:05
Biloxi surgically placed into the empty socket::
anyone see The Ren & Stimpy Show? When Ren's one eyeball pops
out? Exactly like that.
Which would look great in the comic books! Then Xander would have
a super power, too. He wouldn't know the future, only state the
past and the "now" in incredibly confusing, vague terms
- but with great authority and grossnessicity. Plus, he'd be a
good look out during stealth raids since 6 or 7 or the little
eyeballs could be watching behind them also. (Yes, the Visine
bill woud be astronomical. And hopefully the B.E. has at least
20/20 vision because contacts for all those corneas would break
the budget completely.)
Perhaps that was what the writers intended for us to conclude.
[> [> [> [> Re:
I don't think it's reaching. 2 big eye references... -- Corwin
of Amber, 12:59:46 07/03/03 Thu
IF they planned it out, IF Beljoxa's Eye and the "Xander
see's things" weren't just pulled out of some writers rear
end, they failed to follow through. (To my satisfaction, Rob says.)
The Beljoxa's eye plot point WAS NOT MENTIONED AGAIN. For all
intents and purposes, it meant nothing. Xander didn't need to
lose an eye in order to throw a wrench in the works for an episode,
all he had to do was stand up to Buffy's way of doing things.
Basically, it just comes down to my main issue with S7, that they
neglected the core of the show in order to focus on a lot of extraneus
characters and events that had no follow through.
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