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*Out of the Chair* - Coda for Season Seven (a.k.a. 'The Endless S7 Review') ... Part III -- OnM, 21:21:02 07/13/03 Sun

~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part II ) ~ ~ ~



When last we left our intrepid reviewer and his somewhat less intrepid (and mostly inebriated) evil sidekick...
well, sidekick really isn't the right term either, but until the Supreme Court decides otherwise, the chad will just
have to fall where it may, or so we've been told... they had taken a break from their normal pseudo-intellectual
Buffyverse schmoozefest to log on and Google the recent FOX News story about the possible existence of "Evil
Pills". And wow, wasn't that a really long sentence? As always, you can count on MRI (Mirror Research
Institute
, a wholly-owned front operation for PATTSI (Pennsylvania Timely Tax Shelters Inc)) for
more words for less! Anyway, the EP story has proven to be significantly less than accurate, so it's time to
re-board the bus to Sunnydale, or at least a bus operating somewhere within an alternate dimension where
Sunnydale isn't a great big hole in the ground
:


OnM: I told you it was ridiculous. Just another stupid scam that gets picked up on and passed around in
a blatant attempt to boost ratings. That's the real evil, I tell you. When I was a kid, the news was the news, it
wasn't dressed up as something fashionable and presented as infotainment. Chet Huntley, Dave Brinkley, Walter
C. Que es muy macho, eh?

Evil Clone: Barbara Walters? And isn't 'muy' the wrong word? Don't you mean to say 'more' and not
'very'?

OnM: Please! Give me Diane Sawyer any day. Or even Leslie Stahl. Besides, it wasn't about a
male-macho thing, it was about that kind of 'just the facts, ma'am' presentation those guys were known for. The
news isn't about entertainment, it's about reporting the facts of whatever situation and keeping the democratic
institutions of the country on a proper heading. I don't think it's remotely a coincidence that the credibility of our
current governmental institutions is at it's lowest point ever when the press is a willing party to subterfuge by
evasion and spin.

EC: They've always done that, you just weren't aware of it. It was behind the scenes, which is a motif
that's far harder to pull off these days, what with the high value placed on continually feeding the voracious maw
of the electronic news. In the old days where things were mostly print-oriented, it was easier to take a break in
between events.

OnM: I know they've always done it, but there was a certain shame and disrepute attached to the act.
Now it's like they actually revel in the iniquity-- it's like 'news, schmooz-- lookit them dollars rollin' in!'. The
ends justify the means all right, but 'the ends' isn't the distribution of accurate information that is in the public
interest-- 'the ends' is about income for the network.

EC: You expect them to work cheap, or for nothing?

OnM: It's a higher calling, like medicine. The bottom line is important, I don't dispute that, but the tail
is wagging not only the dog now, it's wagging the whole damn doghouse. It's what leads to things like Saddam
Hussein's chemists creating 'Evil Pills' that give an excuse for military actions that backfire at worst and cause
inevitable death and suffering at best.

EC: Hey, Evil Pills could be worse than nukes in the wrong hands. We could have ended up with a
whole bunch of Saddams. Or even more Jerry Falwells. God would soon be removing all kinds of protective
shields around America!

OnM: (shudders) Don't go there. Thank the fates it was bogus. I was almost certain that was the case
from the time you first mentioned it, but that one report we found about manipulating DNA to strip away the
part of the code that controls the development of the ego and superego and leave only the id remaining was
pretty scary. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that concept into a virus deliverable in pill form that
could genetically reprogram innocent individuals.

EC: Yeah, who was behind that? The national telemarketing council?

OnM: I think so. The one article at xf.lonegunman.org claimed it was in response to the recent national
'Do Not Call' legislation. They reasoned that if we were all creatures of the id, programming an autonomic
response of "Want that! Buy it!" to any sales presentation would be easy to accomplish. They are calling
far less people, but absolutely everyone buys something, so on balance they come out ahead.

EC: Tsk. Just think, you try to help the economy, and ya end up Evil. Go figure.

OnM: Well, I fear it's only a temporary respite. The level of manipulation is growing steadily on all
fronts, not just the electronic news one. No matter how adept we are at rejecting it, it wears us down. Eventually
dire consequences could and probably will result.

EC: Speaking of which, are we done talking about Faith and Spike now? That is, if we're ever going to
get back to discussing the show?

OnM: It's my understanding that there is a board moratorium of sorts on Spike, but I also think there
are some other boarders who dispute that. I'm not getting involved other than peripherally. I think all is cool on
the Faith front, but I pretty much covered what I wanted to say about her character last time around. You have
any final thoughts?

EC: Never. There is always another thought, no thanks to you! Why couldn't you have stripped
out the think-too-much gene before you pulled me out of the tank? Like the lady said, what's so great about
really deep thoughts?

OnM: (genuinely sad) Freedom is slavery, e tu God? I honestly did try to modulate it some, but it didn't
work. Apparently the gene is solipsistic in structure, and keeps reconstructing itself in its own original image
over and over again. The local rental shop kept threatening to repossess the electron microscope unless I paid for
another month up front, and it was either that or get the car fixed. So I had to let it go and move on to other
things.

EC: (looks at the floor, somewhat dejectedly) My mother the car.

OnM: A Sophie's choice, but that's life in the little city. Anyway, we can't change the past, we can only
analyze it into submission. So what did you think of the Big Feminist Statement (tm) at the ending? You know,
with all those new Slayers being called and whatnot?

EC: (brightening) Yeah. Talk about dangerous choices! I loved it, 'cos it was so righteous and so evil at
the same time!

OnM: (bemused) Go on.

EC: OK, so Buffy has finally done what she has always dreamed of doing-- freed herself from the
horrible loneliness of being the one and only Slayer, to each generation etc. etc. A loneliness that only ends in
death, what a great payoff for being a hot chick with superpowers, right?

OnM: I'm still debating whether that was genuine or ironic or both.

EC: It's a moment to revel in, she should be ecstatic, all bubbly and bouncing, but all we see is that
enigmatic little smile. And it's because she knows, there is no gift without purchase. She's still somewhat in
shock about everything that's happened, so it's mostly subconscious but it's still gotta be there. She is 'free', but
she has done it by essentially enslaving hundreds, maybe thousands of other girls around the world, making them
into Slayers without first asking their permission.

OnM: You're right.

EC: (pausing) I am?

OnM: You are-- there's no arguing with the simple fact of the matter, and that's part of the genius of
the series finale, in that on the surface it appears that the cosmic balance has been tipped overwhelmingly in favor
of the side of good, but that isn't inherently true. There is now the possibility for even greater danger in future,
and Buffy and her friends are the prime instigators of that possibility.

EC: Because the presumption is that the new Slayers will all choose to use their newfound power to
serve the same side that Buffy serves, but they may not. Faith went down the dark road, and it was something
close to a miracle that she came back. But presumably Buffy and Co. will immediately set out to recruit the
newly called, and put together some kind of X-Men like organization, or a 'New Council of Watchers'.

OnM: I think that that is a given, and if there had been an eighth season, I imagine that this September
we'd be seeing the beginnings of that organization start to take shape. The original Watcher's Council may have
been misguided in the way that it treated the 'weapon' at its disposal, but the need to teach the Slayer and
connect her to her heritage is something very necessary. Now that there are a whole big bunch of Slayers, the
need is exponentially greater.

EC: And as I said before, none of the new Slayers asked to be called. It is a form of conscription,
no matter how well it was intended.

OnM: You know there were a lot of potentials in the Casa Summers living room when Buffy gives the
'do you want to be strong' speech. I think we are led to believe that the whole crowd voted 'yea' and joined
Buffy at the Hellmouth, but it was kinda hard to run up an accurate count. I wonder if any of them said no
thanks? And even if they did, what difference would that have made-- the spell Willow cast would have still made
them Slayers. I have had this odd visual running through my head where Buffy is over in a corner of the room
with five or six angry or frightened young women who are arguing that they didn't even want to be potentials, let
alone full-fledged Slayers. They just wanna be out of the line of fire and go home. Buffy needs every single
warrior she can bring to her cause, but how does she reconcile forcing someone who doesn't want the deal? Not
a good place to be in psychologically.

EC: Well, then they can just sorta die as potentials, then can't they?

OnM: I assume that would be the direction she would take with them. But the basic issue is still there,
and irresolvable. Buffy is playing up the need to meet the greater good, or as Spock put it back on Trek years
ago, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Taking the big picture into account, she is on solid
ethical ground, but on the other hand, no means no. As I said, it's irresolvable. Someone's rights will be trampled
on.

EC: So. Let's assume that three of the women choose to sit out the battle, and the other three join the
main group. Two of them die, one survives. All three of the rejectees live, of course. So they made the right
decision after all, assuming they bugged outa Sunnydale before the big battle, natch.

OnM: Except they are now Slayers. Do they have a right to join the New Council with the rest of the
battle survivors? Or does Buffy tell them to piss off?

EC: I would hope so. No guts, no glory, sez me.

OnM: (chuckling) That's funny, coming from someone whose idea of guts is staying awake for an
all-night drinking contest at the local pub.

EC: Hey, that was tough! You try it sometime! I was belching for hours afterward, kept me awake even
longer!

OnM: No thanks, my liver is the regular, non-enhanced 49-year-old kind. But seriously, I've never been
in the military, and frankly have less than no desire to join it, now or ever. But I sit here enjoying the freedoms
that were won by those who have put their lives literally on the line to win them. Even leaving the military out of
it, people from my generation have benefitted from the pro-union people who made the world a better place to
work in, and without the feminist movement that so many young women today look at dismissively, there would
be no Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV.

EC: Or the right to vote.

OnM: Well, yeah, that was the implication and all. You don't get the little things until the big things get
done. But when have I ever done my part to preserve the state of the union, other than of course my significant
regular contributions to the welfare of wealthy people and their friends?

EC: They run the country, you help them. Sound like public service to me!

OnM: I'm not a good example, I grant you, but the dilemma still exists. None of the protos asked to be
protos. If they don't want to be Slayers, then they shouldn't have to be Slayers. There's more than one now--
even if only half of say 100 Slayers wanted to serve the New Council, that's still 48 more than what were there
before.

EC: Maybe Willow could come up with a de-Slayering spell, and remove the Scythe energy from them.

OnM: Possibly. But it would certainly be in the interests of the NC to bring as many fighters into the
fold as it could. I imagine that the pressure would be significant, even if it was friendly pressure.

EC: Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had become a Slayer until Merrick found her in
Los Angeles. This has always puzzled me-- how could she not know she was suddenly gifted? In
Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls knew that something happened, that's for sure.
So one day you feel this cosmic orgasm thing, the next day you notice that you can outrun the school track star
without breaking a sweat. Or that you were this big ol' spaz and now you can juggle chainsaws.

OnM: Chainsaws?

EC: Maybe not chainsaws, but you get my point, right?

OnM: I think the honest answer to this is that as the mythology expanded over the last seven years, Joss
had to choose whether the feminist viewpoint took precedence over the 'canon' of the early days, especially the
events that were depicted in the movie. For him that was an easy choice. We never got to see or even hear about
the moments when Faith or Kendra were called, and for that matter Buffy has never spoken about it even
once
during the entire series. So Chosen was the only time we have ever seen a Slayer called.

EC: (shaking his head emphatically) Wait, you're kidding, she... (pauses as it sinks in) O my
Honorificus, you're right! That's so freaky!

OnM: O my Honorificus? (concerned) Dude, she's mythical. Don't be doing that. This is reality
here.

EC: Ewwww! Don't be sayin' nasty things like that! Besides, I met her!

OnM: No, that was the census lady. You were going to answer the door, and I pulled you aside, and
you tripped over the couch and bumped your head and got dizzy.

EC: But she was really well dressed! (trying to remember) Didn't you want me to be counted?

OnM: I was at a loss to explain how you look just like me but were only three years old. The normal
world just isn't ready for some things.

EC: (muttering very softly) Pot calling the frying pan burnt...

OnM: Huh? I missed that...

EC: Ferget it. Back to Buffy and the New Council and all. So the gang all rides off out of the desert and
into the sunset. Only the next day, the sun comes up again, just like Joyce said. And everyone heads out to start
locating the newly en-Slayed. Naturally, there is much skepticism on the part of the newbies, and with Sunnydale
gone, it gets tough to convince them of the supernatural nature of the world. James Randi even finds out about
the goings-on and attempts an intervention. Things get so hairy that Willow has to transport him to the alternate
universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone on Earth subscribes to Scientific American.

OnM: Uhh... yeah, I guess that could happen.

EC: They consider moving to Cleveland, 'cause there's a Hellmouth there, even though it's only a little
one and the demons mostly just have bad hair days every day and aren't especially nasty. Buffy initially objects
because Cleveland isn't close enough to the beach and then remembers that she's the Head Hot Chick with
Superpowers and she's also a pal of the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere who can teleport her to
Brazil anytime she wants.

OnM: Brazil?

EC: Topless beaches. I think visually, remember?

OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about
it, she will give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn it down, or worse yet, go the Faith route and
turn to evil, for whatever personality-driven reasons-- greed, revenge, ego-fulfillment. The NC members will
have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own creation, women who might not ever have been a
problem if left unchosen. And in the meantime, ordinary people could get injured or killed.

EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but there was only one. You kill her off, and another
takes her place, and hopefully things work out better. Now they have lost that advantage.

OnM: One thing to consider is that we are assuming that these young women who have been chosen are
typical human women, but that may not be the case. Whatever supernatural forces govern the selection of
potentials may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral nature. We are citing Faith as an example, but
Faith wasn't inherently evil, she had circumstances that pushed her in that direction and she gave in to human
weakness and followed that path. As I mentioned before, it took a great deal of strength to turn away from the
darkness that had enveloped her and fight her way back out again. Having proper mentors is critical, and this was
a problem with the original Watchers Council-- they forgot their mission was to serve the Slayer and
decided to use her instead.

EC: Those Shadowmen guys were pretty clearly users. Not hard to see how the mission went missing.
So maybe they didn't forget, they never thought of it that way at all.

OnM: Or they could have been desperate, and the girl that they picked to violate was the best available
candidate. If your entire species is facing imminent violent death, it makes supernaturally raping a girl seem like a
worthwhile tradeoff if doing so prevents it from happening. We don't know, and I'm not excusing what they did.
Buffy herself acknowledged that war means death and suffering, and she also admitted thinking that she could
have been mistaken not to accept the shamans 'gift' of greater power.

EC: But you don't believe that, when that ep aired you said that you were absolutely convinced that
Buffy did the right thing, that she would find another way.

OnM: Yes, and I haven't changed my mind. But I admire how ME didn't make it easy for us, at least
not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't
attempted to rape Buffy, and felt remorse about doing so afterward, he would never have gone to get his soul
back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy hadn't eventually accepted his remorse as being genuine and allowed
him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil could have won. All cause and effect, as I
pointed out in my earlier primary review on Chosen. This is disconcerting to think about, but there it is.
Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have been placed in the circumstances that allowed her to greatly
amplifiy her magical abilities, and she likely could not have been able to cast the spell that distributed the power
of the Scythe to all the world's potentials.

EC: Hummph. And folks call me evil. I'm not that evil.

OnM: Buffy won because she could see the bigger picture, although I think 'sensed' or 'intuited' would
be more accurate terms. There never was any rational reason why she shouldn't have killed Spike long ago, and
even less reason why she should have forgiven him for the attempted rape. But she did, and I think we are led to
accept this as proof of Buffy's worthiness as a 'higher being'. By contrast to Jasmine in AtS, who offers a
'rational' choice to make and thereby turns her followers into contented cattle who only have the illusion of
freedom, Buffy and her followers insist on shouldering the burden of choice and accepting the pain and ambiguity
that is unavoidably tied in with doing so.

Another item: I was really struck by how similar this endgame parallel between the two series evoked the
concept behind Ursula LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas. Jasmine's followers were like
those people in the story who lived in absolute happiness and contentment because somewhere, a small child
suffered terribly in complete isolation from any human contact. Buffy was someone who would walk away from
Omelas, who wouldn't accept the deal, and this isn't something new with her. Back in season three, Buffy gave
the Box of Gavrok back to the Mayor because it was the only way to save Willow. Wesley insisted that this
wasn't rational, that Willow's death, while unfortunate, would nevertheless allow them to absolutely bring a halt
to the Mayor's ascension.

EC: And of course, Buffy won't kill Dawn to save the world in season five. Irrational again.

OnM: Buffy chooses life unless there is absolutely no alternative-- it is her gift. You are full of love,
brighter than the fire
. This was never a casually thrown out line, it was a statement that goes to the very
core of Buffy's heroic nature. People think that Buffy is naive, and in their defense, she sometimes is, but it isn't
a naivite born of carelessness or stupidity, it's an unwillingness to accept the easy path, to sell out when it really
counts. That was the whole point of Giles betraying Buffy in Lies. Giles falls into despair, and falls into
accepting the 'rational' path, which is to say the convenient one. Buffy has to bitch-slap him back into his
humanity again.

EC: And her 'generalissima' moments? She seemed pretty 'rational' herself there.

OnM: Thereby proving to herself that this was a role that didn't fit. We saw a number of moments over
the course of several episodes where Buffy admits to her confidants (Willow, Xander, Spike) that she's
uncomfortable in this leadership role, but thinks that this is what is expected of her. But the expectations are
those of others around her, not what her own are
. She needs time to realize this. It's there, waiting to come
out, but she needs a bit of a push to accept herself as a leader whose own methodology is valid and effective.

The final transition takes place after she is faced with rejection by her sister, the one person she can't rationalize
as being 'against' her. She has to re-evalute her actions, come to trust herself and her own instincts, not borrow
the instincts of others. That she is capable of doing so is proven when she passes the mantle of leadership to
Faith, of all people. A lesser being would never have done this, but her own instincts tell her it is what must be
done. And Faith rises to the challenge, although with some difficulties along the way, and proves Buffy correct.
And Spike, of course, comes through with the emotional support that eventually leads Buffy to the Scythe.

EC: The very nifty-looking but very deus ex machina axe that mysteriously saves the day. Sorta
convenient though, eh?

OnM: I really don't get why there is such a fuss about this in some quarters. Joss is a comic book fan,
and comic books are chock full of deus ex machinas and always have been. In the comic universes, stuff just
happens. Unpredictability is the norm.

EC: But there was never the slightest mention of the damn thing the whole time the series was on the
air. Shouldn't it have been foreshadowed somewhere? You know, an allusion or a hint or two?

OnM: Why? Isn't it more of a surprise the way it was done? I really loved the Scythe, and what was
done with it. I can see that if one thinks that 7.22 was 'the end', then the Scythe was indeed a simplistic plot
device that seemed to come in at the last minute just to save the day. But the Buffyverse continues to expand and
grow. It's not gone unless Joss unexpectedly croaks, and even if such a horrid fate should befall the world, I
think Marti and Espenson and Petrie and Fury and Greenwalt and all the others understand the thing well enough
to make it keep on living. The legacy is real, it will outlive its creator no matter what.

EC: Gee. Sorta like if I'd outlive you!

OnM: Nuh-uh-uh. Then I think we're doomed. Sorry.



~ ~ ~ ( To Be Continued ) ~ ~ ~



[> Preserving -- Masq, 12:07:56 07/16/03 Wed


[> Preserving...just wrote longish reply to Odyssey, not up for 'nother just yet -- Random, 15:30:00 07/16/03 Wed


[> [> Preserving again -- d'Herblay, 21:39:09 07/17/03 Thu


[> argh! shouldn't try to reply this late... -- anom, 00:07:26 07/17/03 Thu

...esp. when i'm also chatting! OK...save what I have so far...try tomorrow...post about it to try to keep thread up (again)....

Masq, thanks for bringing it back!

[> scattered comments--hope they're worth the double thread restoration! -- anom, 10:33:57 07/18/03 Fri

I almost posted this under d'Herblay's "Preserving again" as "Restored again." Or maybe it should've been "Thanks again"!
--------------------
"...that one report we found about manipulating DNA to strip away the part of the code that controls the development of the ego and superego and leave only the id remaining was pretty scary. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that concept into a virus deliverable in pill form that could genetically reprogram innocent individuals."

It's gonna be a loooooonng time before anything like that's possible. Nobody knows what part of DNA controls the development of the mind--the brain is complex enough, & we're only at the very beginning of the Genome Age. Besides, in terms of sales opportunities, it'd leave everyone broke very soon, & that wouldn't be good for sales. And how would they get it past the FDA?

"Things get so hairy that Willow has to transport him to the alternate universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone on Earth subscribes to Scientific American."

Heehee! Well, at least cjl would have complete job security!

"They just wanna be out of the line of fire and go home."

But is anyplace going to be out of the line of fire if the Slayer side doesn't win? How much of a choice is the other side gonna give them? This is the thumb on the scale of Buffy's decision to activate potentials even though some--maybe even most--of them have no idea what's going on.

"Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had become a Slayer until Merrick found her in Los Angeles. This has always puzzled me-- how could she not know she was suddenly gifted? In Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls knew that something happened, that's for sure."

I'd like to offer a slight fanwank: the Willow-enhanced spell gave an extra boost to the awakening of the Slayer power that made it perceptible, whether any particular Potential was expecting it or not. Or having it happen to so many at once gave it a synergy that had the same effect. (It occurred to me to wonder if the Scythe had glowed every time a new Slayer was called over thousands of years.) In a way, it reminds me of the "click" that was referred to so often in Ms. magazine's letter pages, when a woman realized that something she'd always accepted as the way things were was restricting her based on her sex. When just a few women were coming to such realizations on an individual basis, they might not have connected it to society-wide conditions. But when it happens on a larger scale, when it starts to affect an entire society's consciousness, there's something to "click" into, and the women who experience such a moment are more aware of it. Maybe that's the metaphor.

"OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about it, she will give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn it down, or worse yet, go the Faith route and turn to evil.... The NC members will have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own creation.... And in the meantime, ordinary people could get injured or killed.
EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but there was only one. You kill her off, and another takes her place, and hopefully things work out better. Now they have lost that advantage."

They do have a new advantage, though...their own experience w/the dark side. Faith herself, Willow, Buffy...they have an understanding the old Council never could have of what power can do to a person, & they might be able to reach possible rogue Slayers the way Angel almost reached Faith after she'd killed Finch...until the Council interfered. Of course, they're not around to do that anymore, are they? The problem is that the New Council would have to find, & try to intervene with, any rogues on a case-by-case basis. I wonder how much detail there is in Willow's ability to "feel" all the new Slayers. Can she locate them? Tell what their mental state is? Know the best approach to take for each one?

And on a more general scale, the diversity of experience among the Sunnydale Slayers (sheesh--sounds like a sports team!) may help them relate to more of the new Slayers than a smaller group could & let them bring more of them into the fold.

"Whatever supernatural forces govern the selection of potentials may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral nature. We are citing Faith as an example, but Faith wasn't inherently evil, she had circumstances that pushed her in that direction and she gave in to human weakness and followed that path."

But isn't that always the case? Is any human "inherently evil"? We could ask this of the real world as well as the Buffyverse, but in the latter, it's made explicit that the human soul predisposes people to good, so turning to evil would always require circumstances to give a push. I don't think even Warren was presented as inherently evil.

"But I admire how ME didn't make it easy for us, at least not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't attempted to rape Buffy, and felt remorse about doing so afterward, he would never have gone to get his soul back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy hadn't eventually accepted his remorse as being genuine and allowed him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil could have won. All cause and effect, as I pointed out in my earlier primary review on Chosen. This is disconcerting to think about, but there it is. Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have been placed in the circumstances that allowed her to greatly amplifiy her magical abilities, and she likely could not have been able to cast the spell that distributed the power of the Scythe to all the world's potentials."

This train of thought could indeed be disconcerting. But the "cause" events we saw may not have been the only ones that could have brought about the "effect" ones. For example, if Spike had already been dusted, or had remained soulless but survived, Angel could have worn the amulet. (I'm talking just about the internal reality of the show here--obviously he couldn't have suffered Spike's fate & still have been back for his own show's next season. And Buffy would have been devastated at leaving him behind to burn--we'd never have seen that smile at the end.) They could also have come up w/another way for Willow's powers to expand. On the other hand, it may be even more disconcerting that there were other possible causes, but these were the ones that actually did lead to the effects.

I'm really glad you mentioned LeGuin, & the Guide's line from Intervention. I hadn't thought of Buffy's forgiveness of Spike in light of "Love...give...forgive" before. Now I can hardly believe I didn't!

"Freedom is slavery,...teleport her to Brazil anytime she wants."

Yes, I'm going for the longest ellipsis interval on record here. What the hell connection could there possibly be between what comes before & after that ellipse? Why, just coincidence, of course--I happened to see the 1985 movie Brazil on Sunday, for the 1st time. It's funny & horrifying & it takes place in a dystopia w/blatantly Orwellian billboard exhortations (maybe not "Freedom is slavery," but close) & ministry names; the ending, although less ambiguous, made me think of Normal Again (just to keep from ending this post totally O/T). [BTW, I gotta digress to say I saw it at Symphony Space's Thalia theater, & it was so nice not to have to sit through 20 minutes of ads & previews. The place was actually quiet until the feature began!]

[> [> ...it's gonna be gone again, isn't it? despite my blatantly desperate attempt to preserve it -- anom, *almost* resigned, 17:25:42 07/18/03 Fri


[> so much to say about this...but not tonight--sleep 1st! -- anom, doing my part to keep the thread up, 23:13:39 07/13/03 Sun


[> 'Fascinating',I say, raising one Spocklike eyebrow.. -- jane, 23:28:48 07/13/03 Sun


[> Choices - Out of Eden -- Rahael, 03:31:45 07/14/03 Mon

One of the things that I have been thinking about re Buffy's final choice, and the argument that this is really enslaving young women. I should state up front that I don't think it is enslavement.

Will the demons go away, the vampires, the monsters, the things that lurk in the night, if Buffy hadn't made that choice? No, they would not have.

Would these girls have been spared the dilemmas and pains that Buffy has faced, metaphorically represented by these demons, if she hadn't allowed the potential to awaken? No.

What did Buffy do exactly? She gave them eyes to see the demons, and the emotional strength to fight them. And it's important that they were potentials, because it means that the power was already there. Buffy just awoke it.

I was struck by a quote from a recent Joss interview, about loneliness. How he had always been lonely. And that was something that really leapt at me. I don't think Buffy's loneliness will simply go away because she's shared her power. I think the loneliness and sadness that sometimes pervaded the Buffyverse is a loneliness and sadness that I share, and one that cannot be divested simply because one is no longer alone. I do not face death with equanimity.

But I think we are meant to understand that Buffy came to some kind of resolution when she watched Spike die. She was able to come close to the time when she watched Angel die, when she killed Angel, and once again face this crucial moment, and come to some kind of resolution. Does she know this time that it wasn't the end? Was the crucial point this time that Spike knew what would happen to him, and was able to accept it? Angel died with his eyes closed, still loving Buffy - she deceived him. Spike died with his eyes open, denying Buffy's love. A lie? A truth? Or something that was not untrue and not unkind. (I am here not suggesting that one vamp is better than the other. I am suggesting that Spike and Angel stand in for each other, especially since we know that Buffy specifically denies Angel as the one to be sacrificed this time around).

The sharing of power is linked to Buffy's fear of death in anotehr way. Throughout season 7, we learn that the most terrible thing about the Slayer line is that one slayer had to die before the next is called. This is what is so destructive about being a Slayer - not the naughty black evil, but that all these girls are just waiting for Buffy to die so they can be the chosen one. That is the destructive cycle that Buffy finally breaks. That's how she conquers death twice in Chosen. That's why the message of Chosen is Rebirth, just as the series ends.

And yes, the Choice she makes isn't all light. The girls will face hardship because they will use their power in the service of others. But, can anyone on this board say that they have not faced hardships and pain? I am the last person who says that pain ennobles. But I do think helping others, reaching out, and finding a place in the world through a sense of community mitigates the loneliness, the sadness, and enriches our sense of our own self, because the idea of self is only made meaningful by the existence of others. Other, important, loveable, respectworthy selves.

[> [> Entirely positive post about S7! Catch them while you can! -- Rahael, 03:32:58 07/14/03 Mon

and yes, this is a blatant attempt to keep the thread alive.

[> [> [> *sob* You don't know how happy you've made me, Rah! -- The Cheerleadery One, tissue-box in hand, 08:38:37 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> Hehe, Rob! and Thanks, OnM! -- Rahael, 16:24:28 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> [> Rah! You *know* we resolved at the last meeting that... -- Random, 23:12:52 07/16/03 Wed

we weren't allowed to make Rob any happier. He will explode from joy and that would be bad...I mean, the mess will incredibly icky to clean up. So remember: Miserable Rob = returned security deposit.

[> [> Very nice - an excellent defense of the situation. Thanks! -- OnM, 07:36:16 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> She liked it! -- ponygirl, 09:46:46 07/14/03 Mon

Well, at least that part!

Very nice, Rah. I don't quite get the problem some have with Buffy's decision in Chosen. Yes, we have been trained to see the negative side of Slayerdom, to understand that it is a burden more than a gift. But in many ways it is the burden of living. Hot chick with superpowers aside, what Buffy faces are the problems of being alive in the world on a grand metaphorical scale. None of us ask to be born, but I think most parents would wish for their child to be powerful, to have the strength to make choices, for good or for ill.

Buffy is giving these girls something that she never had - a shared burden. None of them will ever have to be the only girl in all the world. Their deaths will be their own, not the condemnation of another to the same fate.

[> [> [> And of course one of the major signs that the spell was of the good...Will went WHITE. -- Rob, 10:08:16 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> Actually that I didn't like so much -- ponygirl, 13:44:12 07/14/03 Mon

I don't think Willow should have to be checking her roots for reassurance about whether a spell is good or bad... but they had established the dark hair thing from last year and of course the Gandalf tie-in.

[> [> [> [> [> As a visual symbol, though, it was a concise way to display this w/o saying it expositionally. -- Rob, 14:23:02 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed -- ponygirl, 14:38:18 07/14/03 Mon


[> So Where are Parts I and II? -- Dochawk - who misses too much when he goes on vacation, 07:00:11 07/14/03 Mon

Though the vacation was clearly worth it and necessary.

[> [> Apologize on the slowness of the archives -- Masq, 07:11:12 07/14/03 Mon

Breaking in some new archivers, and having some busy life stuff going on myself. I can find the first two parts on my hard drive and send them to you if you want.

[> [> I'll get 'em mailed to you, Doc. You should already have the main review. -- OnM, 07:29:29 07/14/03 Mon

I mailed that out last week or thereabouts. If you didn't get it, let me know.

The Dawn Paradox (potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk) -- ZachsMind, 09:14:06 07/14/03 Mon

Now that the entire seven year run is behind us, and we can see the entire tapestry laid out without concern for that which is missing, there's one thing which I find intriguing. And granted, we can surmise that the story will continue to unfold in Angel in an indirect way but for all intents and purposes the story of Sunnydale itself has been capsulized with the cratering of Sunnydale. So the events inside Sunnydale, except where affecting the outside world, can be dissected, reversed, turned inside and out, etcetera, without much fear of continuity reprisal. I mean, I couldn't ask the question I'm about to pose at the end of season five, but I should be able to do so now.

That question is this: what if Dawnie was there from Day One? What if Joss had thought that far ahead? What we know is that immediately after Dracula's appearance (and subsequent disappearance) from Sunnydale, Dawn just magically appears, and all the Scoobies (apparently everyone in Sunnydale except the occasional lunatic) just immediately accepts her in their continuity. Even the godlike Glory can stare right at her and not see the truth, despite the fact that half the time she was insane herself.

So we're led to assume that temporally, Dawn was a green glowing glob somewhere in a monastery until September of 2000. However, after September of 2000, everyone had memories of Dawn having been in their lives. We're given hints throughout the rest of the series precisely what those memories are, and that after the initial shock in season five, the Scoobies just naturally accept this rewrite of their past to accomodate Dawn's presence. So that, for all intents and purposes, Dawn is subjectively real. From the perspective of Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles, Dawnie was there with them since Buffy's first day of school in March of 1997.

Precisely what happened in those interum years, at least in the memories of our Scooby gang? It's theorized that had the animated series been successful, this rewrite would have been made more clear. However, since that may not be the case, and since we fans of the series are now facing an indeterminate amount of time where the stories of the Scoobies' future are left in doubt, perhaps now's an opportunity for a little retcon. Can we reverse engineer the first four years of Buffy's history to ascertain where Dawnie might have fit in? Can this be done without adversely affecting the history, or would her presence have naturally made dramatic changes, like bring Jonathan or Amy more into the Scooby fold, for example? Or since she would have been in junior high while Buffy was in high school, and then high school when her sister was in college, would Dawnie have had little to no effect those first three years?

When did Dawn learn of Buffy's Slayer powers, and why didn't she tell Joyce? How did Dawn's infatuation with Xander develop? How would Dawn have interacted with Cordy, Angel, Oz, Snyder, Faith or other characters?


Would this make the overall story more enjoyable, or less? What do you think?

[> What Do We Know? (The Dawn Paradox continued) -- ZachsMind, 13:51:40 07/14/03 Mon

Since no one else is taking the bait, I'll try to sweeten the worm a little bit.

Dawn's first appearance in the BuffyVerse is Episode 1 of Season 5 at the very end. The original airdate was September 26th, 2000. This is like, Ground Zero. Everything after this point lends us potential clues for what went on before, if only in the memories of our principal players. The source material confirms that Dawn was ten years old in season one ("Shadow") and fourteen in season five ("Crush"). We're never told when (they believe) her birthday is. That may be because it's in the summer some time.

In "Real Me" we learn that Joyce often leaves Dawn in Buffy's hands to watch over, even when Buffy is doing her Slayer training duties with Giles. We learn Dawn has decided opinions about each of the principals, recalling that old-timer Giles once used the word "newfangled." Ironically, I can find only one other instance when that word was used, and it wasn't Giles who said it. Dawn seemed to always look up to Tara & Willow, and she had a crush on Xander early on, who apparently had often been her babysitter in the first four years. Apparently this was the first time she met a crazy person. Until this moment she had no clue to her strange existence.

The pickings get a little slim after the first episode, but glimpses into the memories of Dawn & the others are given throughout the bulk of the fifth season. In the episode "No Place Like Home" Buffy hints that Dawn never could take an apology, which insinuates Buffy's had to apologize to her before. "Ever since.." Buffy's voice trails off. We do not know the details, only that there was one other time. Perhaps a painful time.

In season five's "Family" we learn Dawn has a biased opinion against alcohol, but appears oblivious to the fact many of Buffy's friends occasionally partake. Why she has this opinion though is not made clear.

In "Shadow" we learn Dawn has a memory about riding a carousel with Buffy and Joyce for a full hour on her birthday. This was when she was ten, and was according to Dawn during her first year in Sunnydale (some time in season one). We also learn there is some kind of history between Riley & Dawn which may or may not have leaked into the preceding year (season four). Dawn notes that Buffy cried less while dating Riley than she did when dating Angel.

"Into The Woods" Dawn reported a memory where she used to put chopsticks in her mouth like fangs, and Buffy would chase her around the house yelling "I'm a slayer, I'm gonna get you." This may have only happened once, or perhaps a few times. It may have been soon after Dawn learned Buffy's secret some time in season two or three. Probably when Joyce wasn't around, because if Joyce saw Dawn running around with chopsticks in her mouth it woulda been worse than running with scissors to a parent. Dawn later points out whenever she plays games with Anya & Xander (potentially late season three onward) that Anya always wins. There's also a moment where Dawn admits that on more than one occasion, Buffy has managed to have Dawn put into the custody of someone else (usually Xander) "so Buffy and Riley can bonk." Although Buffy spent most of season four away from home, it's apparent that this behavior has been going on for awhile. It might have happened once or twice before "Real Me."

In "Triangle" we're given a hint that Dawn had to warm up to Riley. That at first she didn't like him but just before Buffy & Riley broke up she was warming up to him, probably because of the Buffy doesn't cry around Riley like she did around Angel thing.

The first time Dawn & Spike really talk to one another is in "Blood Ties," but their interchange indicates they were familiar with one another already, probably on a very peripheral level (like in season two when Spike was still all GrrrArghy). This may be the first time they were alone together. Had Spike & Dawn actually had words prior to "Blood Ties," it was when Spike was decidedly more evil, which would have given Dawn's attitude towards him in that episode much more weight. His first nickname for her is 'Nibblet' and he says it as if he's referred to her in that manner before.

However, in "Crush" we're led to believe Dawn had never been in Spike's crypt before, that she only then realized how Spike travels by the sewers in the daytime, and that she wouldn't have even dared be around Spike alone before she realized she wasn't really human. So if Dawn met Spike back in season two, it was definitely while she was tagging along with the other Scoobies, and NEVER by herself.

By "Blood Ties" Dawn has learned about her true nature, and even cut herself in an attempt to prove her humanity to herself. Joyce & Buffy try to comfort her but she begins to feel the weight of having memories of a life unlived. This begs the question: never in the history of the series have WE seen Dawn and Hank (her father) together. Hank only made a couple appearances in the first two seasons of the series ("Nightmares & "When She Was Bad" predominantly). Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward, would he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect on him? WE know that the monks made Dawn out of Buffy's blood, so technically she's a magical clone of Buffy. She's not really Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn remembers Hank as her father, would Hank have any recollection of Dawn? And would prolonged exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly get brain cancer and die, like what happened to Joyce? Has this already happened anyway?

We learn from Glory in "Blood Ties" that Dawn's true nature is "a bright green swirly shimmer." At least that's what she looked like when Glory last saw Dawn's true self (probably circa 12th century in Tarnis). However, Dawn's never revealed in that way throughout the series, with the potentially apocryphal exception of season seven, when Willow does a magic spell that goes through Dawn & the door and hits Amanda, we see a glimpse of a YELLOW ball of energy inside Dawn. This could be cuz the energy Willow shot out was yellow. It may have no bearing on Dawn's true self, but it sure looks suspicious.

Hmm... twelfth century. This means Dawn is almost as old as Anya. Possibly older. Trivially, we're told Dawn got an allowance from Joyce but we don't know how much it was.

[> [> Re: What Do We Know? (The Dawn Paradox continued) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:39:14 07/14/03 Mon

"Hank......Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward, would he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect on him? WE know that the monks made Dawn out of Buffy's blood, so technically she's a magical clone of Buffy. She's not really Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn remembers Hank as her father, would Hank have any recollection of Dawn? And would prolonged exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly get brain cancer and die, like what happened to Joyce? Has this already happened anyway?"
Hmmmm... ok..First off, I think that since Angel and Faith both remember Dawn (neither of them actually being around when Dawn was introduced), its a pretty safe bet that Hank does. After all, he was her 'father' and therefore more likely to go visit the family in Sunnydale than the imprisoned psycho Slayer, or the vampire ex-boyfriend.

Secondly, and I realise that this is a common theory amongst some, why is it that people think that Dawn somehow caused Joyce's tumour?
It was stated time and again by the writers that Joyce's illness was there to show A) that Buffy can't fight *everything* and B) that sometimes people die from non-demonic causes ('no monsters involved' say officials).
And if prolonged exposure to inter-dimensional energy-based artificial life-forms who happen to unlock portals between worlds caused brain (or any other type) cancer, why aren't any of the scoobs dead, or suffering, from it? Not to mention the fact that Hank clearly has not had prolonged exposure to Dawn (he may have memories of her, but so far as we know, he has never actually met her) so wouldn't have been magickally irradiated by her.

Oh, and although we didn't see it ourselves, Willow could see Dawnie as all green and glowy at the end of S6, when she was all evil and veiny.
I always wondered if Dru would be able to tell, you know, what with being psychic *and* crazy.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> Why Dawn caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- ZachsMind, 06:54:46 07/15/03 Tue

There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions prior to season five - Dawn's first appearance.

The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact that she had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise. Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of birth, if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more times than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way.

Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just happened to be where the tumor was located. Coincidental and circumstantial, but coupled with the time factor and the whole "crazy people can see Dawn" thing, it's enough for me.

If Joyce had been dying of anything not related to the brain then I'd agree with you. However, I firmly believe that if Dawn never showed up, Joyce would have still been around. She wouldn't have died from after-effects of brain surgery.

In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional world inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by a demon, that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer powers but was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate reality, Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the events depicted in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and well, and there never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate reality and not a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies it.

[> [> [> [> Re: Why Dawn caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- O'Cailleagh, 07:35:45 07/15/03 Tue

"There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions prior to season five"

How about before the show began? We don't know Joyce's medical history, or that of her parents etc. Besides which, illnesses of all kinds can manifest without a person having ever been previously ill.
It *could* have been any number of things that caused the tumour, such as using cell phones, living in close proximity to power lines, or a very large amount of physical and/or emotional stress.

"The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact that she had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise."

Brain tumours are known to cause odd behaviour and the like...I hesitate to use the term psychotic...the reason for this is the tumour presses on the part of the brain it has formed in, this affects the working of the brain.

"Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of birth, if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more times than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way."

Well since most people don't believe in the existence of magick, this wouldn't surprise me. However, it would be entirely possible to convince a mother that she had given birth a different number of times through hypnosis, for example. Also mental illness could have a similar effect. My grandmother, who suffered from Alzheimer's, was convinced that my sister and I were her children, in addition to the four children she had in 'reality'.

"Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just happened to be where the tumor was located."

The tumour was located in the brain, not the mind, they are two different things, connected, but different. Unless you're saying that the tumour was located in the part of the brain that was producing the odd behaviour. In which case, I addressed that above. To reiterate, it was the tumour causing the odd behaviour, not the other way around.

"In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional world inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by a demon, that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer powers but was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate reality, Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the events depicted in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and well, and there never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate reality and not a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies it."

Yes, it was either a delusion, or it was an Alternate Universe. If it was delusion, then..well that explains itself. If however it was an AU, then that also explains itself. It was an Alternate Universe. Emphasis on Alternate. They are called this because things turned out differently causing alternate events to happen. This would be why Hank is still with the family, why they are still in LA, why Buffy isn't a Slayer, and why Sunnydale doesn't even exist. Choices affect the future, you make different choices, and different events unfold.
The fact that Hank and Joyce divorced had nothing to do with Dawn in the 'real' Buffyverse (since she was still just the Key at this point) so obviously, her not being in the Asylumverse had nothing to do with why Hank and Joyce are *not* divorced. So why is it that Joyce still being alive does?
Maybe, in the Asylumverse, the lack of Slayer related stress for Joyce (emotional trauma), and the deficit of attempts on her life (physical and emotional trauma), are what saves her from developing cancer. Or maybe her diet was better, including more anti-oxidants and less free-radicals. Who knows?
Its an interesting theory, it really is, but it doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny, plus it flies in the face of what the writers told us about Joyce's death. They maybe contradictory sometimes, or misdirect us on occasion, but outright lying about the show isn't something that they really do. Except when spoilers are an issue of course.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> That argument ONLY works if the asylumverse is real... -- Rob, 07:36:59 07/15/03 Tue

And the important thing we learned in that episode was that it was not important which reality was really real, but what was most real to Buffy. Buffy chose the red pill, or the blue pill, or whatever. She made her decision. Thus that is what really happened. Also, as stated before, there is more proof in that episode that the Asylum is the dream than vice versa, such as the fact that we are almost always in Buffy's POV in the Asylum scenes (except for the end), but not always in the Sunnydale scenes. There are no scenes in the Asylum without Buffy in them; Buffy is not in every Sunnydale scene.

The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's true nature.

And that, IMO, is all that is important. To begin with, we were given a red herring, when Joyce was able to see Dawn wasn't there, then fainted. It was a direct mislead to get us to believe that Dawn might possibly be evil, or, at least, causing the tumor. At that time, many of us were suspicious as to her true nature. Later though it was clear that Joyce's sickness was of completely natural causes. It allowed her to see Dawn for who she really is, just like all people with mental afflictions, but as you said, it's completely circumstantial and coincidental. The fact that her death in The Body is completely non-supernatural in anyway is very important.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> So are we to assume... -- ZachsMind, 12:45:29 07/15/03 Tue

So are we to assume, had Dawn never showed up, Joyce would have died of complications from a brain tumor anyway? I don't buy that.

Yes of course the writers wanted us to believe Dawn was evil. It helped with the suspense and allowed for opportunities of surprise and reveal. I'm not insinuating Dawn ever was evil. She's not. However, her arrival was a catalyst that caused Joyce's illness. There was no indication Joyce was sick before Dawn's arrival. Dawn shows up in 5.1, is featured prominently in 5.2, and Joyce starts getting headaches in 5.3.

JOYCE: (sighs, puts hand to her forehead) This must be my "two teenage girls in the house" headache. I thought it felt familiar.
BUFFY: Good work, Dawn. You gave her a headache.
DAWN: I did not! (to Joyce) Did I give you a headache, Mom? I'm sure part of it is Buffy's.
BUFFY: But part of it is Dawn's.
JOYCE: It's so nice you've learned to share.


It is insinuated this is not the first headache she's had because of having "two teenage girls in the house." I'll grant that, but it's only because the infiltration of artificial memories grew retroactively from the point of "Temporal Ground Zero" which is around September of 2000. There's no previous indication in the first four seasons that Joyce got head aches. In fact the only other time I can recall headaches being mentioned prominently in the series was in season one, during The Puppet Show. And it was about one of the Scoobies' classmates, not about Joyce at all.

And to be fair, Dawn was only indirectly causing Joyce's cancer. The direct cause was the powerful magic that the monks introduced into the world. Dawn can't actually be blamed for it. As Willow would be the first to attest, powerful magic like this does not come without a price. In order for Dawn's life to begin, there had to be a sacrifice.

Ultimately that's what this was. The trading of one life for another. The one closest to Buffy. Had Dawn not torn that picture in half in "Forever" Joyce would have come back completely normal, and Dawn would have died. Probably right there on the spot. There's a curious balance and order to the universe that not even magic can prevent.

Of course then there'd be this green glowing thing where Dawn had been, everybody would have immediately forgotten about Dawn cuz the spell would have been broken by another spell, and then Glory woulda found the green glowing glob and destroyed the world before Buffy had a chance to figure out what was going on, so everything turned out for the best but we still had to lose Joyce in order to get Dawn. Dawn's life meant Joyce's death.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: So are we to assume... -- O'Cailleagh, 01:33:01 07/16/03 Wed

Well...you're clearly not willing to listen to other people's points of view on this whole thing. Rob, Anom and myself have all given you very good reasons for Dawn not being the cause of the cancer. The most important one being because the writers said so. You may as well say that Joyce's illness was caused by Buffy saying (in S1?) "I hope it's a funny aneurism".
Like I said, it *is* an interesting theory, it just doesn't pan out. Apologies for any typos or if this came off as snarky, I'm very tired cos I've been out all night, but wanted to respond before Voynak came a-chomping.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> it wasn't me -- anom, 09:34:44 07/16/03 Wed

Thanks, but I can't take credit. I didn't address the issue of whether Dawn's existence had anything to do w/Joyce's tumor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oops! My bad, sorry anom. -- O'Cailleagh, 13:29:48 07/16/03 Wed

It seems my sleep-deprived state twisted my memory of your post around!

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I do listen to other points of view... -- ZachsMind, 13:25:22 07/16/03 Wed

Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. =P

[> [> 3 things, for now -- anom, 10:36:21 07/15/03 Tue

I should start by admitting I haven't had time to read this whole thread, so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's already been said.

"Apparently this was the first time she met a crazy person. Until this moment she had no clue to her strange existence."

Since Dawn had existed for only a short time, it may well have been the 1st time. She may have memories that she was created with of meeting crazy people before, but those memories would have been of "normal" encounters with crazy people, meaning the same kind people who aren't the Key have w/them. Dawn's memories of the time since she was imposed on reality (that's a Borges reference) are real memories & need to be distinguished from the ones that were created by the monks.

"Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward, would he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect on him?"

This q. has come up before (I was one of the ones asking them). We've seen that Angel & Faith remembered Dawn even though they weren't in Sunnydale when she was created (or transformed from the green energy). Angelus retains the memory back in LA--he calls & talks to Dawn to find out if Buffy is the Slayer he hears is around, & it's implied Angel had previously kept in touch & knew of her, probably before he came back to Sunnydale for Joyce's funeral. So Hank probably has memories of Dawn too.

One difference I can think of in how the earlier storyline might have run is that when Buffy sent Joyce out of town before graduation, it might have been a lot easier to convince her to go if she'd been taking Dawn to safety. Joyce would probably have put up less of an argument & felt less as though she were abandoning Buffy in the face of a threat.

[> Re: The Dawn Paradox (potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk) -- Wolfhowl3, 09:43:56 07/14/03 Mon

My guess is that Dawn found out about Buffy being the slayer at the same time the Joyce did. (end of Season 2)

I'm guessing that one of the major differences is that Angelus would have targetted Dawn as well as Buffy's Friends, maybe even trying to kill her when he showed up to kill Joyce.

Wolfie

[> [> Re: The Dawn Paradox (potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk) -- ZachsMind, 10:10:02 07/14/03 Mon

Just Angel? Would the Master not have targetted Dawnie in season one? Dru in season two? Adam in season four? What about Faith? Dawnie being added into the mix brings about a lot of possibilities not otherwise available.

As for learning the same time Joyce did, I can't quite agree with that. The reason is because of "Ted." Buffy reacted coldly to Ted. Dawnie would have been even moreso. In fact this is one of the areas where the girls had something in common - they would have percieved Ted as an interloper, trying to replace their father. Dawn would not have warmed up to Ted any more than Buffy did.

I surmise from this that the sharing of a common enemy would have temporarily forced a truce between the two siblings, and in the course of fighting Ted, Dawn would have seen where Joyce was still oblivious. Basically her big sister being ubernatural in kicking butt against a robot. If prior to "Ted" Dawn hadn't figured out Buffy was up to the same old tricks she before the three of them had to move, after that episode it would have been impossible for her to deny it.

Sexy Riley? -- Rina, 09:58:00 07/14/03 Mon

It's ironic how many people either assume that Riley wasn't a very sexual man. Or that the actor Marc Blucas, wasn't very good at projecting sexuality.

A few days ago, I watched the episode, "Something Blue". Remember the scene where Riley took Buffy on a picnic? And when she revealed that she doesn't drive? Well, Riley was stating the pleasures of driving and I had the unusual feeling that he was using it as a metaphor for sex. And I must be honest, I was just as turned on by his description as Buffy obviously was.

[> Re: Sexy Riley? -- LadyStarlight, 10:12:55 07/14/03 Mon

I caught that too when I was rewatching that, Rina.

I think it was the whole package (tone of voice, the look on his face) that sold that scene.

[> [> Re: Sexy Riley? - or Marc Blucas? -- curious, 10:29:29 07/14/03 Mon

I always thought Marc Blucas was a pretty competent actor and liked Riley well enough - especially after he grows past his black and white trust of the Initiative and Maggie. I just didn't find that he and SMG had a lot of sexual chemistry together. Part of it was that he is sooo much bigger than she is. (Seth Green comments on his size on the s4 DVD.) But petite women seem to go for big guys so maybe that's just my predjudice.

I also recall a JW comment to the effect that they tried to give Buffy a nice boyfriend and the audience thought she walked all over him. I wasn't sure if he was kidding and that was his intention in writing B/R or if he was frustrated that the audience couldn't see Buffy with anyone but Angel.

BTW, Blucas is in a new movie called "I Capture the Castle" based on J.K. Rowling's favorite book. I think he plays a romantic character. Might be interesting to see how he pulls off that role.

[> [> [> I Capture the Castle -- LadyStarlight, 10:39:32 07/14/03 Mon

That's one of my favorite books (and a big reason why I spent money I really didn't have when QPBC released it a while back) and I'm waffling about making a movie out of it.

MB will fit the role, I think, but I've been terribly disappointed by movies based on books before. (I'm still traumatized by "Clan of the Cave Bear") But I'll reserve judgement until I see the movie.

I liked him in "We Were Soldiers" and thought he did a great job.

[> [> [> Sexy Marc Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head:: -- Wicked Buffy, 10:45:12 07/14/03 Mon

Interesting point!

Just now, when I tried separating the actor from the character, I discovered it was Marc Blucas I didn't care for - not Riley. I always thought I didn't care much for Riley, but it wasn't that.

Just my personal taste, of course. If I try imagining someone else, anyone else* playing the role of Riley, I like the character MUCH more.

What a nice way to start the day. I don't like not liking an ME character. :>

*possible choices that I mentally substituted in Blucas' role: Johnny Depp, Antonia Bandaras, Barbara Streisand, Sylvester Stallone, Marilyn Manson, Al Gore, PeeWee Herman. see? I really did give MB a chance! :>

[> [> [> [> Re: Sexy Marc Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head:: -- purplegrrl, 11:04:30 07/14/03 Mon

**Sylvester Stallone**

My brain just went to a "Yo, Buffy" place, which made me laugh!!

Personally I think Marc Blucas had just the right look for a wholesome, corn-fed Iowa boy -- sort of that "Jack Armstrong, All-American Boy" look.

Some victims less important? -- K-Dizzy, 10:50:15 07/14/03 Mon

Gosh, all this ongoing talk- still!- about the "AR" in Seeing Red. And some mention of how posters/ME have "trivialized" this issue, including the forgiveness part....

But how come no one EVER talks about what happened to Drusilla?

I mean, if people insist on discussing- at length- the sexual violence committed by an unsouled vampire on BtVS, how can anyone overlook the most terrible example of this, possibly one of the most horrifying scenes ever witnessed in the series? By this I mean Becoming, Pt. 1, with unsouled Angel and Drusilla in the church. Angel has already admitted that of all of his unsouled acts, what he did to Drusilla "was the worst." So, we know that after being stalked by unsouled Angel, innocent virginal Dru fled to a convent, hoping to save herself in every interpretation of the word- religiously, psychologically, physically- and is about to take her vows when she is mercilessly violated. We see a disheveled Drusilla sitting there collasped on the cold, hard stone floor like a broken, tossed-away doll, hysterically mumbling about "snakes in the woodshed," with her tear-stained and distraught face turned up to the God who has forsaken her, and see an unsouled Angel just staring at her with those calculating eyes and the faintest trace of a leer.... And then Darla joins in the depraved fray and laughing together, delighting in her terror, they practically roll over onto Dru, who softly issues a mad giggle from the sheer horror/evilness of what she's experiencing- it's like the audience can literally SEE her sanity slipping from her....

Where are the wails of outrage and posts of indignation over this scene? (And not even factoring in the murder of her entire family and siring.) I mean, it's an oft-viewed and "classic" episode, right? One wonders how much more graphic it would have been if it aired on UPN.... So how is it that "Seeing Red" can be endlessly cited, but the (very strongly implied) sexual assault of Drusilla is never even brought up, in all these dedicated discussions about ARs and such? In fact, for those who absolutely insist on labeling characters, why is it okay to have a recent TV Guide cover featuring Buffy pictured right next to "her attempted killer/Drusilla's rapist"? Clearly, if ME's gonna play around with hot topics, they've got to expect that certain characters will be equally roasted, eh? But somehow the actual/admitted rapes (ARs) of unsouled Angel rarely get mentioned- and his viability as a 'suitable' romantic partner never questioned- and only one woman's experience is discussed. This can't be the real message of "feminist" BtVS, can it? That some victims are less important? That sexual assault is only worth talking about by the writers and the fans when the title character is involved...??

[> Re: Some victims less important? -- ZachsMind, 11:19:34 07/14/03 Mon

Are some victims less important? Yes. Dru was already turned when we are introduced to her. Her story is told to us after the fact, and the damage had already been done. However, Buffy's experience was shown to us inside the confines of the series subjective "real time" and not a flashback. So for most, the experience of Buffy's near AR was more emotionally evocative, than Dru's even more objectively formidable rape experience.

Furthermore, the show's named after Buffy. She IS the lead, so what happens to her is naturally going to carry more weight than a more peripheral supporting character - especially if that character had been previously established as the villian.

Which further proves the injustice in our perception.

Take for example Anya in s.7's "Selfless." We learn in flashbacks that she has done far worse than kill a handful of frat boys. However, her causing the Bolshevik Revolution held less weight having been told to us in flashback, than the experience detailed to us in the 'real time' present. Especially since she'd already known what it was like to be human, felt the guilt of her act as she committed it, and did it anyway. It evoked more emotion on many levels from the viewer, as opposed to her even bloodier and more horrific past transgressions before she ever even met up with the Scoobies.

[> [> Nice to see you back -- KdS, 15:23:01 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> Good to be seen. =) -nt -- ZachsMind, 06:42:12 07/15/03 Tue

no text

[> [> Re: Some victims less important? -- Rina, 08:11:46 07/15/03 Tue

So are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was more important? Or that viewers simply see it as more important than what happened to Drusilla?

So, why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to Tara in "All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies in "Tabula Rasa"?

[> [> [> Re: Some victims less important? -- ZachsMind, 09:31:03 07/15/03 Tue

"...are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was more important? Or that viewers simply see it as more important than what happened to Drusilla?"

This is why our judicial system is as complicated as it is. Why twelve people are chosen for a jury instead of one. Why a man is considered innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what some people's emotions say. Why the victim is not given an opportunity to decide the level of punishment. Why lynch mobs and the like are considered illegal and unethical behavior.

There is inherent in the human psyche a very subjective tendency. People who we like up until a point where they do something wrong, emotionally we want to let them off the hook. Whereas someone who's been a meanie to us in before has a lot of catching up to do if they want to be a nice guy. Spike was all about that throughout the series. That was his journey towards redemption. The attempted rape of Buffy was an example of the runner stumbling along that journey.

Objectively speaking, there's no comparison between what happened to Buffy in that bathroom and what happened to Drusilla centuries before. It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is not more or less important than the other. Viewers naturally feel the weight of Buffy's plight moreso than Dru's, for the reasons I explained before. Had the show been named "Spike & Drusilla" her story would be given more attention and would be presented differently, naturally we'd feel more strongly for her. However, the show was called "Buffy" so the cast & crew focused more on her overall, naturally we the audience were looking from that perspective, and Dru's plight got much less attention.

"...why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to Tara in "All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies in "Tabula Rasa"?"

I think one of the reasons why so many disliked season six was not because it was done badly. On the contrary, it was done too well.

The crew pushed the envelope and in so many ways broke from tradition and bent the rules that had been established for six years. Buffy did a couple naughty things when she was turned invivisible by The Triad. When she went mental because of poisonous demon blood and thought her friends were delusions she had to destroy? That's good girl going bad again. Willow's struggle with black magic was yet another example. Her selfish spellcasting on Tara in "All The Way." Stealing the car and inadvertently breaking Dawn's arm in "Wrecked." People were arguing that the writers were showing how magic is evil all the sudden. That's not the case at all. Not any more than the insinuation that homosexuality was evil when Warren killed Tara. There was no connection. No bearing. Sometimes these things just happen. When Dawn wanted to bring her mother back to life in season five's "Forever" Tara explained to her that magic wasn't to be used for such selfish purposes because there were dire consequences. And then in "Villians" we learn that not even Osiris, god of the dead, will toy with "human death by human means." The guy just knows better, and he's a god! However, despite her fight against using power for selfish deeds up until then, Willow had come this far and could not turn back.

At least until Xander's SELFLESS gesture set her straight.

Up until this point, the battle against evil was always outside the circle of four. Giles, Xander, Willow and Buffy were inseperable. After "The Yoko Factor" that was no longer the case. There were cracks in their armor and The First had been trying to break through that armor since "Restless."

This is what makes season six so controversial. This time, evil was creeping into the circle because it was the only way it could defeat them. And in season seven it realized it couldn't even do that, so that's when it decided to pull all the stops. But in season six the writers had already decided to break all the rules. They checked their boundaries and found what their limitations were. What they could get away with and still call it a Buffy story. In season seven they went back to basics and drove the entire thing home. The mantra "it's not about right or wrong it's about power" permeates the whole of the final season, and if you look back throughout the series that sentiment is echoed in many ways.

No victim lacks importance. They are all important. Dru had no champion to protect her, short of her god who was most decidedly not doing house calls at the time. Objectively, directing and writing aside, Dru's plight left her a victim, and the villian we saw in the present was the consequence of Darla & Angel's cruelty towards her when she was still alive. They drove her insane, and they turned her into a tool of evil.

Again. Apples & oranges. What was going on between Buffy & Spike in that bathroom was a role reversal. It wasn't really what it appeared to be on the surface.

So, who was the victim there? Buffy? Buffy is no victim. She was her own champion. She stopped him. She threw him off of her, cuz she's a Slayer and she's got that kinda power. Spike was a victim of his own desire, because he gave in to the power of his infatuation for her. Just as Willow gave in to the power of guilt and remorse and vengeance. Spike was weak. He gave up control. That's why he went to get the soul after his realization, because he thought it would give him power. Buffy was a champion, and had the power to stop Spike, because he was too weak to stop himself.

The power is not just being a slayer. It's HAVING a choice. Choice IS power. Think about THAT the next time you vote for or against a political figure who is "Anti-Choice." =)

[> [> [> [> Re: Some victims less important? -- Rina, 11:57:11 07/15/03 Tue

"That's why he went to get the soul after his realization, because he thought it would give him power."

I gather this is merely your opinion and not a fact. Right?

[> Gotta agree here but... -- curious, 11:23:09 07/14/03 Mon

*I* very much agree with you here. But I think the some members of the audience - not ME need to ask these questions. Not only was Drusilla a victim of a horrific crime - she was turned into an insane monstor who victimized others for over a century. I think ME does remind us of Angel's past. It is the audience that places more emphasis on one act than the other.

Angel was in the same unsouled state at the time of that crime as Spike was when he attempted to attack Buffy and was stopped. What about locking the lawyers in the cellar with Dru and Darla.

Not saying Angel is "better" than Spike. Just saying we have seen Angel do much worse things on screen.

[> [> oops! -- curious, 11:42:32 07/14/03 Mon

I meant:
Not saying Spike is "better" than Angel.

[> [> [> Re: oops! -- Dochawk, 12:01:57 07/14/03 Mon

Both Angelus and Spike were vicious/sadistic vampires. But this seems to be the nature of vampires (though the Master does claim that Angelus was particularly vicious). Angelus had more years to wreak his havoc and has been a central character for much longer so we see more. Remember Spike told us he didn't want us to know what he did to girls Dawn's age.
Why was the AR so horrifying? because it happened to us, we are in Buffy's POV (well we are supposed to be). And because we are supposed to empathize with the protagonist. Is it worse than what Angelus did? or Anyanka? Only because its to "my family", but not on a moral scale. You are much more likely to ask for the death penalty on someone who killed your sister than for someone who killed a drug dealer (its why we can let Willow off the hook easier - she killed a murderer and a drug dealer/rapist). its also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have a romantic relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's just me I suppose.

[> [> [> [> Feel the opposite -- curious, 12:14:34 07/14/03 Mon

its also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have a romantic relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's just me I suppose.

I feel the opposite - mostly because Angel was "old enough to know better" when he initiated his relationship with an underage Buffy - with a soul. And because Spike attacked Buffy in the AR scene - and stopped. But I assume that Spike and Angel both have committed horrific crimes as unsouled vamps and neither should be "the long haul guy" for a vampire slayer.

I like Angel's character development on AtS but have trouble with the fact that ME hasn't finally closed that chapter for either character. I think B/S is more definitively over - and hope both characters move on because it was an unhealthy relationship. But I really think B/A was at least as unhealthy but for somewhat different reasons.

YMMV

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Feel the opposite -- Dochawk, 12:26:37 07/14/03 Mon

Oh please don't confuse me with a B/A shipper - I'm not. I still think Scott Hope was the best guy we ever saw Buffy with (of course he's gay now). The age thing never bothered me, because Angel didn't look his age, if he did it wouldn't have happened anyhow. its what we are shown that makes the greatest impression. I've wanted Buffy to move on since Tabula Rasa, hopefully she'll find someone who treats her well so she can bake cookies for a long time.

[> [> [> [> [> [> ::pointing out that Buffy herself has been seen eating raw cookie dough:: -- milkchocolatechip, 12:38:16 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Feel the opposite -- Rina-, 08:23:19 07/15/03 Tue

Or maybe Buffy can find someone she can treat well. Buffy wasn't the only victim in Season 6, as some people seem to believe.

[> [> [> [> I agree with your psychological point -- Sophist, 12:53:00 07/14/03 Mon

I think you've accurately described the psychology of the situation. But it disturbs me for the same reason that the death penalty generally does. It's why I find it so troubling that ME never really addressed Willow's behavior in torturing and murdering Warren.

[> Re: Some victims less important? -- btvsk8, 13:23:47 07/14/03 Mon

With regards to suitability as romantic partners- Whether Buffy and Spike get together in a relationship that is portrayed as positive has greater importance than Drucilla and Angelus getting it on because of their souled/unsouled status and the fact that we are encouraged to identify with spike (in some ways) and with Buffy to a large degree

[> Context and topicality are not inconsequential -- Random, 14:26:16 07/14/03 Mon

We're not watching a show about Angelus' and Spike's behaviour in the distant past. We see Angelus as a monster in Victorian England, but the Angel we meet has paid a terrible price for Angelus' crimes. Spike, on the other hand, is being witnessed commiting his crimes in the topical context. If Angelus were still around -- if he still stalked the city instead of being trapped by Angel's soul -- he would evoke much stronger reaction. But we're watching Angel-with-a-soul's story, not Angelus'. Even the S2 Angelus arc was more about Buffy and Angel. Spike, on the other hand, was still soulless, and thus we are forced to confront all his actions in that light. It's not a question of trivializing Drusilla's torment, but of how harshly we must deal with the souled Angel for the acts of the unsouled Angelus. From what we saw, Angelus was far more a monster than Spike could ever have aspired to be. Had S2 Angelus and Buffy ended up as lovers, I rather think I might have stopped watching in disgust unless ME did something miraculous with the script.

With Spike, much of the interest has revolved around the S6 relationship, not the S7 one. We can't fastforward to S7 and say that "Seeing Red" was not as terrible as Angelus' treatment of Dru. It wasn't, I believe that. But contentious questions about whether we're being deliberately blind toward one in favor of the other completely miss the point, IMO. We're examining the here and now. We can acknowledge that Angelus' treatment of Dru was horrendous without banging the current souled Angel over the head for it. We cannot acknowledge that Spike's treatment of Buffy was horrendous without examining it in the context of the then-current Spike. When one talks about the B/S romantic relationship, one is generally talking about S6...S7 was distinctly lacking in anything except a platonic friendship, at least from what I saw. To condemn Spike's crime without similarly condemning Angelus' one is not an act of willful blindness. It is an act of acknowledging that the here-and-now Spike (as of S6, which is really what we're talking about, since we're only analysing an episode from then, not the character as he ended up being)is the one we saw onscreen. The here-and-now Angel isn't. If we continue to blame the S7 Spike -- which few people, with a couple notable exceptions -- do, then we are guilty of a hypocrisy unless we include Angel's victims.

More importantly, there is one other issue -- we're not talking just about Angel and Spike. We're talking about their victims. Dru is mad, and we must accept her relationship with Angelus. What causes the firestorm about Buffy is the fact that she makes rational (or irrational, as the case may be) decisions. Should she end up with Spike? If one looks to S6 Spike to make that decision, one has to look to unsouled Angelus when evaluating Seasons 1-3. Anything else would be hypocritical. I personally believe that blaming a souled vamp for the crimes of his/her unsouled counterpart misses several very large points.

~Random, the Clemdrew shipper

[> Because I don't see the Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Earl Allison, 09:45:39 07/15/03 Tue

You are technically correct, Angelus is as bad as, if not worse, than Spike pre-soul.

I guess that to me, the biggest difference is the way ME presented Angel versus Angelus, and the (IMHO) startling LACK of real difference between Spike pre- and post-soul.

Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless, remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either to make them more morally complex, or to cater to favored characters (depending on your views), and suddenly we were seeing vampires like Harmony, who were quite a lot like their previous selves.

I can forgive Angel for Angelus because he is sorry. We see it a lot of the time in what he says and does. He feels enough guilt over what he did to Drusilla to offer her a chance to walk away from Sunnydale (a mistake, I think it would have been more kind to stake the monster she became).

Spike? Spike continued to wear the kill-trophy of a pre-soul victim, showed (to me) almost no empathy for anyone other than Buffy or those close to her, and seemed remarkably unconcerned over those he had killed (aside from one or two episodes, which do not penance make, IMHO). I've seen Angel act to save people he has no connection to at all -- I've yet to really see it with Spike; it's all about Buffy or those close to her (that I can recall).

Add to that the fact that, largely, Spike through S6 was still the soulless vampire. Somehow, I am asked by ME to find Spike better in S6 than he was in S2 -- and then we have the attempted rape. Me tried to have its cake and eat it too, to claim that Spike was different, somehow better even without the soul than any other vampire, and yet he assaulted Buffy. I don't really care what the circumstances were, I can find NO reason to excuse Spike's actions then, or now.

Worse, ME continues to shoot itself in the foot by talking about how and why Spike did what he did. Fury claims that Spike had a little bit of soul, that he was somehow special among vampires -- of course, if I REALLY believe that, his actions prior to falling for Buffy become all the MORE horrible. Spike, who was different, CHOSE to embrace the evil and murder of the past century or so. Angelus is simply what he is through basic nature, but Spike (if I am to accept the "special" argument) didn't, he made a choice.

ME made a very clear distinction between Angel and Angelus, but never the same thing with Spike. He continued to call himself Spike, act a great deal like he did pre-soul, dress exactly as he did (and the coat is a MAJOR issue to me), and largely call attention to how much he was STILL like he was earlier.

I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that he is NOT Angelus. More, he generally (until this most recent season of Angel) didn't claim that Angelus was totally different, but that he was always inside, a part of the whole. Spike generally didn't behave that way, and to be totally honest, if we the viewers had never been told he had a soul -- would it be obvious to you? It wouldn't to me -- although Buffy couldn't parrot "but he has a soouuulll now" over and over, so S7 would only be two episodes long :)

Maybe ME was trying to say that having a soul guarantees nothing, that it doesn't change us all, but they picked a poor choice to show it with, IMHO.

The weirdest part? I'm not much of an Angel fan. I just think the two were handled differently, and for consistency, Angel was handled better, IMHO.

Take it and run.

[> [> It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear.... -- Sophist, 10:48:58 07/15/03 Tue

ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless, remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either to make them more morally complex

I think this progression is pretty much inevitable. Without it, you get truly one dimensional characters like the original Terminator. That was so limiting they couldn't even carry it through 2 movies -- they had to give him something different in T2. For a long-running TV show, it would be hard to sustain the sameness over many years.

What I find interesting is that ME approached this with small steps. They gave Xander these characteristics for one episode (The Pack). Then they gave them to Oz permanently, but only 3 days out of the month. Then we see that Whistler, a demon, can act for the forces of good. And so on until vampires become more complex.

Really, would you rather have a show in which the vamps all behaved like Turok-han, or one in which there could be a Holden Webster? I've gotta say, the latter seems much better to me.

[> [> [> Re: It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear. -- Earl Allison, 11:16:46 07/15/03 Tue

Sophist,

A great statement, but it didn't really answer what I put forth. Did ME have to go that route? Maybe, maybe not. Please don't assume I wanted Turok-Han over Holden. I didn't change the rules mid-stream, ME did. And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters or major supporting ones (which ties neatly into the thread about certain deaths counting more than others).

The original question was, why is Spike more accountable than Angel.

I only posted the reasons as I saw them, please don't hold me accountable for ME's story choices and method of execution.

I stand by the rationale; Angel and Angelus had very distinct differences, Spike, as I saw him, did not. Inevitable or not, I didn't invent the (IMHO) glaring inconsistencies OR the "Spike is special" argument, ME did. And since they decided not to actually address anything of substance, it falls to fans to theorize and put forth ideas.

Add to that the issue of many fans (and the writers) wanting to give Spike credit for his actions between S4 and S6, and you should also accept the negatives for the bad things he did as well, or you assume that the slate is clean -- ENTIRELY. That means no positives or negatives -- no one seems to put that forth as an option, though.

I should have known better than to post on this topic, I really should (and I don't bear you ill will at all, Sophist, I should just avoid Spike entirely).

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> And here I tried so hard to avoid mentioning S**** :) -- Sophist, 12:59:30 07/15/03 Tue

I was deliberately shifting the topic away from a certain vamp to a related issue. I know we'll never agree about the merits of bleaching one's hair.

Continuing on that theme:

And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters or major supporting ones

That's what I would expect. Weekly disposable villains can be one-dimensional. Continuing characters cannot. Anneth's example of Harmony is a good one; so is Dru. For lack of a better word, they have personalities superimposed onto the face of a soulless killer. Of course, once you give a character real personality, you face exactly the situation you described. The difference between us is, I don't regret that choice, I see it as enriching the show. YMMV.

[> [> agree with Sophist; also, -- Anneth, 11:04:03 07/15/03 Tue

Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless, remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either to make them more morally complex, or to cater to favored characters (depending on your views), and suddenly we were seeing vampires like Harmony, who were quite a lot like their previous selves.

I don't think ME ever veered from the premise that vampires are soulless, remorseless killers. The "more like previous selves" change is not so much a sea-change from the original idea than an evolution of it - Harmony is a soulless, remorseless killer version of Harmony the Cordette. Just adds a little complexity to the mix; without which, as Sophist mentioned, vampires would become pretty dull adversaries.

[> [> Re: Because I don't see the Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Rina, 11:25:02 07/15/03 Tue

"I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that he is NOT Angelus."

I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, Angeleus is a part of Angel. Spike had the good sense to finally realize that he has both light and darkness within. As long as Angel continues to see the two sides of his nature as separate entities, he will never be at peace. He will never grow.

grrrrr argh! Where did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread go? -- WickedBuffy ... it is VERY active!, 11:01:34 07/14/03 Mon

I thought post were automatically archived by some machine thingy according to activity?

[> Who can understand Voynak's appetite? see thread above -- curious, 11:12:03 07/14/03 Mon

Maybe it is just as well to start a new thread. That one was getting pretty ragged.

[> Re: grrrrr argh! Where did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread go? -- btvsk8, 13:14:59 07/14/03 Mon

Phew! was so relieved people responded to it in the first place. I feared it would sit there all rejected. Only prob is, the original question remains unanswered- what of our celibate heroine and the message that sends? I was more concerned with that than spike's soul issues. I liked the point that someone made about the cookie speech. I guess that does excuse her lack of sex to a certain extent...

[> [> Why does cookie dough = celibate? -- Masq, 14:08:42 07/14/03 Mon

Who assumes Buffy meant she had to be celibate? The cookie dough speech simply meant she wasn't going to be looking for a long-term relationship until she was ready for one.

People have sex outside of long term relationships all the time.

I say more power to Buffy to not feel the need to throw herself into relationships before she's ready and to satisfy her sexual needs anyway she wants to.

[> [> [> Rock on, Masq! Abso-friggin'-lootley! ;o) -- Rob, 14:17:30 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> And, finally... -- KdS, 16:07:54 07/14/03 Mon

After Faith/Wood and Gunn/Gwen, (and also possibly Willow/Kennedy, depending on long you see them lasting), sex outside lifelong commitment is no longer an Official MEverse Bad Thing.

[> [> [> [> Gunn/Gwen is the best example here -- Masq, 16:32:51 07/14/03 Mon

If you assume ME won't pursue that relationship next year. I think they implied in "Chosen" that Faith and Wood might pursue a relationship. And certainly I think, regardless of how long it actually lasts, Willow and Kennedy perceive themselves to be in a steady relationship. So I don't count W/K sex as "sex outside of a long-term relationship".

But if by this you mean that characters no longer get automatically punished for having sex outside of long-term relationships, this is still a bit fuzzy in the Buffyverse, since most of the characters we've seen in both BtVS and AtS have had sex in the context of committed relationships, either real or perceived.

There are a few examples of sex outside of committed relationships. Buffy and Parker come to mind. Xander/Faith is another example, and I'd argue that both Buffy and Xander did get "punished" for these sexual liasons in a sense. In those two cases, though, Buffy and Xander got "punished" by their sexual partners for being presumptuous after the even took place. Buffy percieved herself as being on the cusp of such a relationship with Parker, and he didn't. Xander assumed he had a connection with Faith that Faith didn't.

[> [> [> [> Re: And, finally... -- btvsk8, 17:29:23 07/14/03 Mon

Just to repeat myself- your arguments would work if buffy was actually having sex despite not being ready to find "the one". but she isn't. which is why the cookie dough speech does not in fact excuse (the writers) in buffy's lack of a sex-life, because, as you rightly point out she can still be cookie dough and have sex. but she doesn't because her only prospective sexual partner is Spike- attempted rapist. hence my original point that the writers did not consider the long-term implications of Seeing Red.

Hope that makes some kind of sense!

[> [> [> [> [> For whatever it's worth, Buffy was also celibate in S1 and S3. -- Sophist, 20:08:20 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> Re: Why does cookie dough = celibate? -- btvsk8, 17:20:55 07/14/03 Mon

I didn't mean that her cookie dough speech was her declaring her wish to be celibate. The fact of her not having sex for over a year (probably not "satisfying her sexual needs") was where I got that from. Not that there is anything wrong with not having sex, its just that I feel that Joss, as a feminist would have prefered to go against the tradition and have his heroine in a healthy sexual relationship (cough-but couldn't because of the "AR"-cough). What I do think is that her cookie dough speech could be the solution to this issue... but i'm still not convinced

[> [> [> [> Re: Why does cookie dough = celibate? -- Yellow Bear, 22:30:10 07/14/03 Mon

The contention that the AR in 'Seeing Red'prevented ME from creating a sexaul realtionship with Buffy & Spike in S7 is probably accurate but the belief that they could not see this consquence coming seems hollow. Clearly, the AR was going to be deeply traumatic and any sexual relationship thereafter would be difficult. I find it very hard to believe that ME did not go into the AR with eyes wide open about what directions this would take the story in S7.

[> [> [> Maybe celibacy will be part of her decision. -- WickedBuffy, 08:18:02 07/15/03 Tue

I thought it just meant Buffy wouldn't attempt anymore serious relationships (like Riley, Angel, maybe Spike) until she was ready. Which was a great piece of self-realization for Buffy.

If she was frigid or had some type of sexual problems, then I would have gone with the cookie dough speech meaning celibacy. But she appeared to be ok in that area.

Her problem was in relationships. But these posts about celibacy and her frequency of sex is something I hadn't even considered. I still feel it wasn't specifically about celibacy, it was more about relationship, but now can see how celibacy might possibly be part of how she helps bake her cookie dough to completeness.

Thanks for pointing out a whole different way to look at it.

Hanging From a Star: 'Winter's Tale' and the Dream of a City (Book Melee) -- Rob, 12:19:40 07/14/03 Mon

Mark Helprin's Winter's Tale is my very favorite book. It has played a particularly significant role in my life, for, while I had always adored reading (throughout my childhood, I was best known as the kid on the playground during recess more likely to be sitting on a bench, reading The Hobbit or A Wrinkle in Time than throwing a dumb ball around with my friends), Winter's Tale is the book that made me want to be a writer. I first read it when I was 12 years old, at an age I now admit was perhaps a bit too young to fully grasp all of the nuances and complexities of this rich and cavernous novel. Or perhaps not. What first truly swept me away into the kaleidoscopic, mystifying world of the novel were the words. The back cover of my edition quotes a book review from Newsday, proclaiming the novel "a gifted writer's love affair with the language." I could not describe it better myself. Here's one of my favorite passages:

The upper Hudson was as different from New York and its expansive baylands as China was different from Italy, and it would have taken a Marco Polo to introduce one to the other. If the Hudson were likened to a serpent, then the city was the head, in which was found the senses, expressions, brain, and fangs. The upper river was milder, stronger, the muscular neck and smoothly elongated body. There was no rattle to this snake. Albany sometimes tried to rattle, but failed to emit an audible sound.

I wish to God I could write that mellifluously. Not only does the prose poetically flow in a manner extremely soothing to the ear in meter and tone, but the metaphors are strong, carried through in surprising ways, and are even quite funny. This book proves that one does not need to simplify or dumb down one's writing in order to be clever and engaging. This is what saves the book from, what in the hands of a less gifted writer, might have sunken into pretension. Helprin's sense of humor and heart save it. Upon first reading the book, I was struck by just how big Helprin's heart seems to be. There is a rich love of life, writing, New York, and love in this book that one cannot counterfeit; there is also a palpable sense of literal and metaphorical flight in the prose. Reading the prologue and epilogue to the novel, the reader feels as if he or she is literally descending (and later ascending) on the back of the flying, white horse, Athansor, to take in all that life has to offer before us.

One of the book's strongest points lies in its imagery. Even long after all of the mechanics of the plot had escaped me, years after reading it for the first time, many images of the novel left indelible marks on me. For example, the scene of the young girl, standing alone outside her father's hotel and watching a white horse attempting to (and finally succeeding in) gliding over the water; the murderous, villainous (and ironically named) Pearly Soames, whose love of cutting throats and robbing banks is eclipsed only by his remarkable love of color; the thick cloud wall drifting over the Hudson that eclipses both time and memory; the stack of girlie magazines hidden under a young boy's bed, which literally sear a hole in the floor beneath them and fall onto the lap of the boy's unsuspecting father, due to the boy's Tell-Tale Heart levels of guilt alone; the two Pyramus and Thisbe-like lovers separated by a wall throughout the long winter; the dying girl, lying in her small tent above the city, communing with the stars; the winter village that exists outside of all boundaries of time and forward movement, hard to leave and even harder still to find; the bridge whose roadway is made of nothing but pure light; and above all, the image of a thief stumbling across the (nude) owner of the house he is robbing and falling instantly in love with her, and even more significantly, having this love be instantaneously reciprocal.

No mistake about it, this story is a fairy tale. Despite its ostensibly realistic setting, the book courses with magic, from the flying horse to Peter Lake's later abilities of telekinesis, and perhaps most remarkable, the magic of first love. At the age of 12, and even now, I find it just delightful how easily characters fall and stay in love in this book, and most importantly, the fact that it does not come across as coincidence or foolhardiness. Whenever two people who are right for each other meet in this book, it is like a meeting of two minds, two souls that were created for each other; fate deemed that one day they would meet, and in each case they finally do: Peter Lake and Beverly; Hardesty and Virginia; Asbury and Christiana; (the most unlikely pairing of) Craig Binky and Sarah Gamely. And why does this happen? The answer, I believe lies in this passage:

Their throats tightened, and they shuddered the way one does when one discovers or reconfirms higher and purposeful forces brazenly and unconvincingly masquerading as coincidence.

By denying the existence of coincidence, Helprin strips bare the fabric of the universe and reveals that, yes, everything is connected. A dying child in an abandoned tenement can finally be saved nearly a hundred years later; a shiny salver given to a young man by his dying father can help bring about the demise and Phoenix-like resurrection of an entire city; an out-of-place figure in a photograph or painting from the 1900s can stumble down the street across from you, having not aged a single day. Helprin's novel is Dickensian in sprawl and characterization, but it convinces in its coincidences where Dickens sometimes fails by completely disqualifying the notion. For example, the revelation of Magpie's connection to Estella in Great Expectations might have come across as far less far-fetched had Dickens metanarratively commented on coincidence in the novel as Helprin has done. By admitting and reveling in the fact that these situations are unlikely at best, Helprin allows for a more natural suspension of disbelief.

Winter's Tale is dense not only with imagery and otherworldly forces but symbolism and allusion. I don't find it merely a coincidence (sorry for the sledgehammer!) that Beverly, Peter Lake's one true love and the woman who has inspired him throughout his life to eventually reach the pinnacle of his existence of bringing a young girl back from the dead, shares in common the first two letters of the name of Dante's muse, Beatrice. This was nearly confirmed for me when he sees her appear to him, glowing and white, in the cellar, the night before the Short Tails drive Peter Lake into the cloud wall, and I have no doubt as to whose hand was guiding him on his tour through all the graves of the (under)world. I also don't find his name, Peter Lake, merely coincidental, with Biblical references to St. Peter not only in the name's association with the lake, but in St. Peter's status as the maitre d' at the gates of heaven. The circumstances of his childhood also, of course, draw echoes to Moses, and his burgeoning abilities in the final third of the novel call a certain Nazarene to mind. Unlike Jesus, however, he is not a carpenter who creates new things out of assemblages of wood, but is a mechanic, fixing, repairing, and patching up problems that have already occurred in large, metallic structures. His revelation that he has the ability to control other people's motions telekinetically is as similarly methodical and logical as his uncanny ability to break down a large piece of machinery into its basest elements, then reassemble it again. A kindred spirit, Hardesty, is the only other character with such a singular ability: his seemingly miraculous one-shot win at a pool table foreshadows and complements Peter Lake. Significantly, it is Hardesty's daughter whom Peter Lake brings back to life, and it is Hardesty who begins to bring Peter Lake closest to discovering his true identity.

The tone of the book also suits its fairy-tale like setting. There is a deliberate quaintness and out-of-time-ness to the prose that cannot be explained merely by the fact that, having been written in 1983 (when I was three years old), Helprin could not have foreseen such everyday, prevalent parts of our modern early 21st century society such as cell phones and the Internet. The New York City that Helprin creates does not exist in any time but its own, to the point that even the sections that I know are meant to occur in the late 1990s seem to me, while reading, to have occurred in the far past. Hardesty's cross-country journey seems as if it would be more at home in the 1920s or 1930s, as does the descriptions of The Sun and The Ghost (another Biblical allusion). And yet, still, remarkably, Helprin nails New York City. He could not have known what the end of the millennium would bring, and so he creates an alternate New York City, that is in some ways idealized (in what but an ideal world would Praeger de Pinto actually win the Mayoral election for New York City?) and yet at the same time harshly accurate. He describes the city as a monster that could devour the unsuspecting person up whole, and he is right; he also describes the city as a glowing superlative of justice and beauty, and he is right. Who else but a lover and connoisseur of New York City would be able to so accurately predict the complete rebirth that could occur after a major, apocalyptic crisis? While the city did not completely set ablaze on the eve of the millennium, as Helprin predicts, the aftermath of the catastrophic events of September 11th, 2001 is uncannily alive in Helprin's words:

'I'll tell you why, Governor,' Praeger returned, his words rising all over the place. 'The city's not going to burn forever. We're going to rebuild it. By summer, you'll see, it will become something that you've never dreamed of. Do you know what else? If this fire stops at night, we'll begin to rebuild on the next morning. If it stops in the morning, we'll begin to rebuild in the afternoon. When that happens, I want all the arsonists to be dead, and I want anyone who even entertains the idea of lighting a match to be able to remember what happened to the people who started the fire.'

'I'll believe what you said about rebuilding,' the governor said, 'when I see it.'

'You'll see it. We're the quickest rebuilders in the world-we don't talk as fast as we do for nothing. As much as the fire takes from us, we'll take from it. We'll pretend it's a tourist.'


This passage is indescribably brilliant, not only in its hilarious punchline, but in the absolute truth behind every statement. Uncannily, every part of Helprin's passage occurred to the letter, including the attitude regarding the "arsonists." The last line, of course, is wrapped in good ol' New Yawk city resolve and ballsiness. Prager admits that the city is a bastard, but a beautiful creation, too.

On a brief aside, my two favorite sections of the book are the entire first part, which reads like a self-contained novella, with a heartbreaking love story that never fails to spill a few tears from my eyes, and the tragicomic story of Hardesty's journey to New York City, including his hilariously frustrating time spent with the unfortunately named, mountain-climbing dwarf, Jesse Honey. In the movie of the book that plays in my head, Jesse is played by Danny DeVito. His calm assuredness that he is the smartest, most athletic, and most capable man in the world, despite his diminutive side, missing appendages, and complete inability to bring any plan to successful completion all screaming that he is not any of the above, is not only oddly inspiring but outrageously comical. Yes, I imagine a Romancing the Stone-era DeVito in the role.

In my mind, Winter's Tale is one of those all-encompassing texts in which one can find everything: the meaning of life, 42, and all that jazz. I see it as not one novel but a multitude of novellas, short stories, and asides all commenting on the central themes of justice, love, death and rebirth, swirling all the characters in a non-linear kaleidoscopic whirlwind that takes them all spinning in unforeseen directions and turns. I admire how Helprin was able to capture New York City, as a living, breathing, moving character better than in any novel I have ever read; I admire how he is able to completely captivate me with his perfect command of the English language and deeply clever turns-of-phrase; I love him for crafting what is to me the perfect book.

Rob

[> Shameless self-preservation. -- Rob, 12:52:18 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> Okay, one more for now. Voynak is glaring at me. -- Rob, 13:19:37 07/14/03 Mon


[> [> [> 'And I am all alone,/ There's nobody here beside me...' -- Rob, whose gotta have friends ;o), 14:20:56 07/14/03 Mon


[> Lovely! -- ponygirl, 14:35:45 07/14/03 Mon

Ok, let me get this out of the way. I still haven't finished reading the book. I will, I will, and I think Rob's essay helps. I wish I'd had taken the approach of seeing the book a series of inter-connected novellas from the start, I kept looking for the connections to previous sections rather than letting them just come upon me. I do think this is one of those books where you just have to surrender to it. It had the quality of a dream, I just had to let myself drift along with the narrative.

One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed to be speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have been nice if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself like a poet every time he spoke.

I also wonder if the character of Asbury was a shoutout to Herbert Asbury, author of the Gangs of New York, whose influence could certainly be felt in the earlier sections about Five Points and Pearly's gang.

Hopefully I'll have more later, but great essay Rob!

[> [> Re: the dialogue -- Rob, 14:57:12 07/14/03 Mon

"One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed to be speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have been nice if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself like a poet every time he spoke."

That's certainly a valid criticism, although I usually just surrender myself to the whole world of the novel so end up not finding the highly poetic dialogue distracting. From an interview Helprin gave (and sorry, I don't think I'd have any way to find, because I don't remember when or where I read it), he said that in this book, he wanted to create a perfect world, and in his perfect world, everyone, from the pettiest criminal to the millionaire, would use the English language as an art form every time they spoke, thus the emphasis on Mrs. Gamely's unique, labyrinthine speech, and his humorous aside that the book reviewers are like gods. He himself said he realized that this would never be, but in his dream world, people would talk like this. And Winter's Tale was certainly his dreamworld, so that explains that. So, at the very least, this explains why everyone spoke like this. Whether ya like it or not is of course a separate issue, but at least it's good to know that the formalized dialogue was deliberate. And yes, this was complete paraphrasing, and I have no way to back it up!

And thank you for complimenting my essay. :o)

Rob

[> Building a preservation bridge -- fresne, 15:06:17 07/14/03 Mon

Can't talk.

Working.

Routers. Switches. Bridges.

Bridges in space. Bridges in time. Slender massive columns and graceful cabled lengths to tether floating lands together.

New York to San Francisco. Clouds to sky.

Thinking as I read of the family vignette in which my father, a little boy at the time, and his parents drove to S.F. in their model T to go cross the newly minted Golden Gate bridge. Camped out in S.F. and then crossed when the bridge opened in the morning.

Of High Steel workers, walking the sky.

So, what parallels, if any with Shakespeare's Winter's Tale?

Exeunt fresne, pursued by a deadline.

[> [> And see that, fresne? -- Rob, 09:20:32 07/17/03 Thu

I managed to slip in a Dante reference! Go, Inferno! ;o)

Rob

[> Let me tell you something, Robert William... -- Sara, with her hands on her hips, 19:45:12 07/14/03 Mon

You are a writer.

I may feel a little lukewarm on the book, but I loved your essay, it was both a lovely piece of writing, and an excellent analysis. Even though I do not have your high regard for this novel, there isn't anything that you've said that isn't spot on right. I'm afraid that I'm just not into mellifluous writing - I like a more direct and concise style. But although not my piece of cake (which won't stop me from finishing it sometime this decade) it is clearly as beautifully written as you say. What can I say, as soon as someone describes a book as lyrical I'm out of there!

Somehow the fantasy never quite drew me in, although the imagery is really, very strong. Helprin certainly creates a New York that is both true to the city that is and was, and yet is also otherworldly. I did love the way Beverly's fevers were described where I could feel the burning eyes and the hot skin. And the cold air had that crispness to it that we feel in a really wonderful winter day. I'm still in the second part, where Virginia has just reached the city - so much more for me to go. I did love the description of the oh-so harsh winter, and the precarious coziness of Mrs. Gamely's home. The winter carnival period felt like what I always want a winter to be, but never really is.

So, yes, this is a work of tremendous imagination, and beauty - if you like that kind of thing...Actually, I think my biggest problem, is that I don't find Peter Lake all that interesting, and I did find the Baymen to be somewhat contrived - but I'm willing to keep the jury out on the last thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the Baymen subplot comes together for me in the end, but I'm not convinced yet.

My final thoughts are, even if I don't love the book, it was worth reading to be able to appreciate your essay!

- Sara, still turning the pages (when not in chat...)

[> [> Honestly, I am *so* touched and greatly humbled, Sara. Thank you so much. :o) -- Rob, 23:39:16 07/14/03 Mon


[> Lovely...I haven't read this one for time and monetary reasons -- s'kat (doing her part to preserve thread!), 22:20:34 07/14/03 Mon

but