July 2003 posts
*Out
of the Chair* - Coda for Season Seven (a.k.a. 'The Endless S7
Review') ... Part III -- OnM, 21:21:02 07/13/03 Sun
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part II ) ~ ~ ~
When last we left our intrepid reviewer and his somewhat less
intrepid (and mostly inebriated) evil sidekick...
well, sidekick really isn't the right term either, but until the
Supreme Court decides otherwise, the chad will just
have to fall where it may, or so we've been told... they had taken
a break from their normal pseudo-intellectual
Buffyverse schmoozefest to log on and Google the recent FOX News
story about the possible existence of "Evil
Pills". And wow, wasn't that a really long sentence? As always,
you can count on MRI (Mirror Research
Institute, a wholly-owned front operation for PATTSI (Pennsylvania
Timely Tax Shelters Inc)) for
more words for less! Anyway, the EP story has proven to be significantly
less than accurate, so it's time to
re-board the bus to Sunnydale, or at least a bus operating somewhere
within an alternate dimension where
Sunnydale isn't a great big hole in the ground:
OnM: I told you it was ridiculous. Just another stupid
scam that gets picked up on and passed around in
a blatant attempt to boost ratings. That's the real evil, I tell
you. When I was a kid, the news was the news, it
wasn't dressed up as something fashionable and presented as infotainment.
Chet Huntley, Dave Brinkley, Walter
C. Que es muy macho, eh?
Evil Clone: Barbara Walters? And isn't 'muy' the wrong
word? Don't you mean to say 'more' and not
'very'?
OnM: Please! Give me Diane Sawyer any day. Or even Leslie
Stahl. Besides, it wasn't about a
male-macho thing, it was about that kind of 'just the facts, ma'am'
presentation those guys were known for. The
news isn't about entertainment, it's about reporting the facts
of whatever situation and keeping the democratic
institutions of the country on a proper heading. I don't think
it's remotely a coincidence that the credibility of our
current governmental institutions is at it's lowest point ever
when the press is a willing party to subterfuge by
evasion and spin.
EC: They've always done that, you just weren't aware of
it. It was behind the scenes, which is a motif
that's far harder to pull off these days, what with the high value
placed on continually feeding the voracious maw
of the electronic news. In the old days where things were mostly
print-oriented, it was easier to take a break in
between events.
OnM: I know they've always done it, but there was a certain
shame and disrepute attached to the act.
Now it's like they actually revel in the iniquity-- it's like
'news, schmooz-- lookit them dollars rollin' in!'. The
ends justify the means all right, but 'the ends' isn't the distribution
of accurate information that is in the public
interest-- 'the ends' is about income for the network.
EC: You expect them to work cheap, or for nothing?
OnM: It's a higher calling, like medicine. The bottom line
is important, I don't dispute that, but the tail
is wagging not only the dog now, it's wagging the whole damn doghouse.
It's what leads to things like Saddam
Hussein's chemists creating 'Evil Pills' that give an excuse for
military actions that backfire at worst and cause
inevitable death and suffering at best.
EC: Hey, Evil Pills could be worse than nukes in the wrong
hands. We could have ended up with a
whole bunch of Saddams. Or even more Jerry Falwells. God would
soon be removing all kinds of protective
shields around America!
OnM: (shudders) Don't go there. Thank the fates it was
bogus. I was almost certain that was the case
from the time you first mentioned it, but that one report we found
about manipulating DNA to strip away the
part of the code that controls the development of the ego and
superego and leave only the id remaining was
pretty scary. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that
concept into a virus deliverable in pill form that
could genetically reprogram innocent individuals.
EC: Yeah, who was behind that? The national telemarketing
council?
OnM: I think so. The one article at xf.lonegunman.org claimed
it was in response to the recent national
'Do Not Call' legislation. They reasoned that if we were all creatures
of the id, programming an autonomic
response of "Want that! Buy it!" to any sales
presentation would be easy to accomplish. They are calling
far less people, but absolutely everyone buys something, so on
balance they come out ahead.
EC: Tsk. Just think, you try to help the economy, and ya
end up Evil. Go figure.
OnM: Well, I fear it's only a temporary respite. The level
of manipulation is growing steadily on all
fronts, not just the electronic news one. No matter how adept
we are at rejecting it, it wears us down. Eventually
dire consequences could and probably will result.
EC: Speaking of which, are we done talking about Faith
and Spike now? That is, if we're ever going to
get back to discussing the show?
OnM: It's my understanding that there is a board moratorium
of sorts on Spike, but I also think there
are some other boarders who dispute that. I'm not getting involved
other than peripherally. I think all is cool on
the Faith front, but I pretty much covered what I wanted to say
about her character last time around. You have
any final thoughts?
EC: Never. There is always another thought, no thanks
to you! Why couldn't you have stripped
out the think-too-much gene before you pulled me out of the tank?
Like the lady said, what's so great about
really deep thoughts?
OnM: (genuinely sad) Freedom is slavery, e tu God? I honestly
did try to modulate it some, but it didn't
work. Apparently the gene is solipsistic in structure, and keeps
reconstructing itself in its own original image
over and over again. The local rental shop kept threatening to
repossess the electron microscope unless I paid for
another month up front, and it was either that or get the car
fixed. So I had to let it go and move on to other
things.
EC: (looks at the floor, somewhat dejectedly) My mother
the car.
OnM: A Sophie's choice, but that's life in the little city.
Anyway, we can't change the past, we can only
analyze it into submission. So what did you think of the Big Feminist
Statement (tm) at the ending? You know,
with all those new Slayers being called and whatnot?
EC: (brightening) Yeah. Talk about dangerous choices! I
loved it, 'cos it was so righteous and so evil at
the same time!
OnM: (bemused) Go on.
EC: OK, so Buffy has finally done what she has always dreamed
of doing-- freed herself from the
horrible loneliness of being the one and only Slayer, to each
generation etc. etc. A loneliness that only ends in
death, what a great payoff for being a hot chick with superpowers,
right?
OnM: I'm still debating whether that was genuine or ironic
or both.
EC: It's a moment to revel in, she should be ecstatic,
all bubbly and bouncing, but all we see is that
enigmatic little smile. And it's because she knows, there is no
gift without purchase. She's still somewhat in
shock about everything that's happened, so it's mostly subconscious
but it's still gotta be there. She is 'free', but
she has done it by essentially enslaving hundreds, maybe thousands
of other girls around the world, making them
into Slayers without first asking their permission.
OnM: You're right.
EC: (pausing) I am?
OnM: You are-- there's no arguing with the simple fact
of the matter, and that's part of the genius of
the series finale, in that on the surface it appears that the
cosmic balance has been tipped overwhelmingly in favor
of the side of good, but that isn't inherently true. There is
now the possibility for even greater danger in future,
and Buffy and her friends are the prime instigators of that possibility.
EC: Because the presumption is that the new Slayers will
all choose to use their newfound power to
serve the same side that Buffy serves, but they may not. Faith
went down the dark road, and it was something
close to a miracle that she came back. But presumably Buffy and
Co. will immediately set out to recruit the
newly called, and put together some kind of X-Men like organization,
or a 'New Council of Watchers'.
OnM: I think that that is a given, and if there had been
an eighth season, I imagine that this September
we'd be seeing the beginnings of that organization start to take
shape. The original Watcher's Council may have
been misguided in the way that it treated the 'weapon' at its
disposal, but the need to teach the Slayer and
connect her to her heritage is something very necessary. Now that
there are a whole big bunch of Slayers, the
need is exponentially greater.
EC: And as I said before, none of the new Slayers asked
to be called. It is a form of conscription,
no matter how well it was intended.
OnM: You know there were a lot of potentials in the Casa
Summers living room when Buffy gives the
'do you want to be strong' speech. I think we are led to believe
that the whole crowd voted 'yea' and joined
Buffy at the Hellmouth, but it was kinda hard to run up an accurate
count. I wonder if any of them said no
thanks? And even if they did, what difference would that have
made-- the spell Willow cast would have still made
them Slayers. I have had this odd visual running through my head
where Buffy is over in a corner of the room
with five or six angry or frightened young women who are arguing
that they didn't even want to be potentials, let
alone full-fledged Slayers. They just wanna be out of the line
of fire and go home. Buffy needs every single
warrior she can bring to her cause, but how does she reconcile
forcing someone who doesn't want the deal? Not
a good place to be in psychologically.
EC: Well, then they can just sorta die as potentials, then
can't they?
OnM: I assume that would be the direction she would take
with them. But the basic issue is still there,
and irresolvable. Buffy is playing up the need to meet the greater
good, or as Spock put it back on Trek years
ago, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Taking the big picture into account, she is on solid
ethical ground, but on the other hand, no means no. As I said,
it's irresolvable. Someone's rights will be trampled
on.
EC: So. Let's assume that three of the women choose to
sit out the battle, and the other three join the
main group. Two of them die, one survives. All three of the rejectees
live, of course. So they made the right
decision after all, assuming they bugged outa Sunnydale before
the big battle, natch.
OnM: Except they are now Slayers. Do they have a right
to join the New Council with the rest of the
battle survivors? Or does Buffy tell them to piss off?
EC: I would hope so. No guts, no glory, sez me.
OnM: (chuckling) That's funny, coming from someone whose
idea of guts is staying awake for an
all-night drinking contest at the local pub.
EC: Hey, that was tough! You try it sometime! I was belching
for hours afterward, kept me awake even
longer!
OnM: No thanks, my liver is the regular, non-enhanced 49-year-old
kind. But seriously, I've never been
in the military, and frankly have less than no desire to join
it, now or ever. But I sit here enjoying the freedoms
that were won by those who have put their lives literally on the
line to win them. Even leaving the military out of
it, people from my generation have benefitted from the pro-union
people who made the world a better place to
work in, and without the feminist movement that so many young
women today look at dismissively, there would
be no Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV.
EC: Or the right to vote.
OnM: Well, yeah, that was the implication and all. You
don't get the little things until the big things get
done. But when have I ever done my part to preserve the state
of the union, other than of course my significant
regular contributions to the welfare of wealthy people and their
friends?
EC: They run the country, you help them. Sound like public
service to me!
OnM: I'm not a good example, I grant you, but the dilemma
still exists. None of the protos asked to be
protos. If they don't want to be Slayers, then they shouldn't
have to be Slayers. There's more than one now--
even if only half of say 100 Slayers wanted to serve the New Council,
that's still 48 more than what were there
before.
EC: Maybe Willow could come up with a de-Slayering spell,
and remove the Scythe energy from them.
OnM: Possibly. But it would certainly be in the interests
of the NC to bring as many fighters into the
fold as it could. I imagine that the pressure would be significant,
even if it was friendly pressure.
EC: Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had
become a Slayer until Merrick found her in
Los Angeles. This has always puzzled me-- how could she not
know she was suddenly gifted? In
Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls
knew that something happened, that's for sure.
So one day you feel this cosmic orgasm thing, the next day you
notice that you can outrun the school track star
without breaking a sweat. Or that you were this big ol' spaz and
now you can juggle chainsaws.
OnM: Chainsaws?
EC: Maybe not chainsaws, but you get my point, right?
OnM: I think the honest answer to this is that as the mythology
expanded over the last seven years, Joss
had to choose whether the feminist viewpoint took precedence over
the 'canon' of the early days, especially the
events that were depicted in the movie. For him that was an easy
choice. We never got to see or even hear about
the moments when Faith or Kendra were called, and for that matter
Buffy has never spoken about it even
once during the entire series. So Chosen was the only
time we have ever seen a Slayer called.
EC: (shaking his head emphatically) Wait, you're kidding,
she... (pauses as it sinks in) O my
Honorificus, you're right! That's so freaky!
OnM: O my Honorificus? (concerned) Dude, she's mythical.
Don't be doing that. This is reality
here.
EC: Ewwww! Don't be sayin' nasty things like that! Besides,
I met her!
OnM: No, that was the census lady. You were going to answer
the door, and I pulled you aside, and
you tripped over the couch and bumped your head and got dizzy.
EC: But she was really well dressed! (trying to remember)
Didn't you want me to be counted?
OnM: I was at a loss to explain how you look just like
me but were only three years old. The normal
world just isn't ready for some things.
EC: (muttering very softly) Pot calling the frying pan
burnt...
OnM: Huh? I missed that...
EC: Ferget it. Back to Buffy and the New Council and all.
So the gang all rides off out of the desert and
into the sunset. Only the next day, the sun comes up again, just
like Joyce said. And everyone heads out to start
locating the newly en-Slayed. Naturally, there is much skepticism
on the part of the newbies, and with Sunnydale
gone, it gets tough to convince them of the supernatural nature
of the world. James Randi even finds out about
the goings-on and attempts an intervention. Things get so hairy
that Willow has to transport him to the alternate
universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone on Earth
subscribes to Scientific American.
OnM: Uhh... yeah, I guess that could happen.
EC: They consider moving to Cleveland, 'cause there's a
Hellmouth there, even though it's only a little
one and the demons mostly just have bad hair days every day and
aren't especially nasty. Buffy initially objects
because Cleveland isn't close enough to the beach and then remembers
that she's the Head Hot Chick with
Superpowers and she's also a pal of the most powerful Wicca in
the western hemisphere who can teleport her to
Brazil anytime she wants.
OnM: Brazil?
EC: Topless beaches. I think visually, remember?
OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is
still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about
it, she will give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn
it down, or worse yet, go the Faith route and
turn to evil, for whatever personality-driven reasons-- greed,
revenge, ego-fulfillment. The NC members will
have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own creation,
women who might not ever have been a
problem if left unchosen. And in the meantime, ordinary people
could get injured or killed.
EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but
there was only one. You kill her off, and another
takes her place, and hopefully things work out better. Now they
have lost that advantage.
OnM: One thing to consider is that we are assuming that
these young women who have been chosen are
typical human women, but that may not be the case. Whatever supernatural
forces govern the selection of
potentials may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral
nature. We are citing Faith as an example, but
Faith wasn't inherently evil, she had circumstances that pushed
her in that direction and she gave in to human
weakness and followed that path. As I mentioned before, it took
a great deal of strength to turn away from the
darkness that had enveloped her and fight her way back out again.
Having proper mentors is critical, and this was
a problem with the original Watchers Council-- they forgot their
mission was to serve the Slayer and
decided to use her instead.
EC: Those Shadowmen guys were pretty clearly users. Not
hard to see how the mission went missing.
So maybe they didn't forget, they never thought of it that way
at all.
OnM: Or they could have been desperate, and the girl that
they picked to violate was the best available
candidate. If your entire species is facing imminent violent death,
it makes supernaturally raping a girl seem like a
worthwhile tradeoff if doing so prevents it from happening. We
don't know, and I'm not excusing what they did.
Buffy herself acknowledged that war means death and suffering,
and she also admitted thinking that she could
have been mistaken not to accept the shamans 'gift' of greater
power.
EC: But you don't believe that, when that ep aired you
said that you were absolutely convinced that
Buffy did the right thing, that she would find another way.
OnM: Yes, and I haven't changed my mind. But I admire how
ME didn't make it easy for us, at least
not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial
idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't
attempted to rape Buffy, and felt remorse about doing so afterward,
he would never have gone to get his soul
back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy hadn't eventually accepted
his remorse as being genuine and allowed
him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil
could have won. All cause and effect, as I
pointed out in my earlier primary review on Chosen. This
is disconcerting to think about, but there it is.
Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have been placed in
the circumstances that allowed her to greatly
amplifiy her magical abilities, and she likely could not have
been able to cast the spell that distributed the power
of the Scythe to all the world's potentials.
EC: Hummph. And folks call me evil. I'm not that
evil.
OnM: Buffy won because she could see the bigger picture,
although I think 'sensed' or 'intuited' would
be more accurate terms. There never was any rational reason why
she shouldn't have killed Spike long ago, and
even less reason why she should have forgiven him for the attempted
rape. But she did, and I think we are led to
accept this as proof of Buffy's worthiness as a 'higher being'.
By contrast to Jasmine in AtS, who offers a
'rational' choice to make and thereby turns her followers into
contented cattle who only have the illusion of
freedom, Buffy and her followers insist on shouldering the burden
of choice and accepting the pain and ambiguity
that is unavoidably tied in with doing so.
Another item: I was really struck by how similar this endgame
parallel between the two series evoked the
concept behind Ursula LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away from
Omelas. Jasmine's followers were like
those people in the story who lived in absolute happiness and
contentment because somewhere, a small child
suffered terribly in complete isolation from any human contact.
Buffy was someone who would walk away from
Omelas, who wouldn't accept the deal, and this isn't something
new with her. Back in season three, Buffy gave
the Box of Gavrok back to the Mayor because it was the only way
to save Willow. Wesley insisted that this
wasn't rational, that Willow's death, while unfortunate, would
nevertheless allow them to absolutely bring a halt
to the Mayor's ascension.
EC: And of course, Buffy won't kill Dawn to save the world
in season five. Irrational again.
OnM: Buffy chooses life unless there is absolutely no alternative--
it is her gift. You are full of love,
brighter than the fire. This was never a casually thrown out
line, it was a statement that goes to the very
core of Buffy's heroic nature. People think that Buffy is naive,
and in their defense, she sometimes is, but it isn't
a naivite born of carelessness or stupidity, it's an unwillingness
to accept the easy path, to sell out when it really
counts. That was the whole point of Giles betraying Buffy in Lies.
Giles falls into despair, and falls into
accepting the 'rational' path, which is to say the convenient
one. Buffy has to bitch-slap him back into his
humanity again.
EC: And her 'generalissima' moments? She seemed pretty
'rational' herself there.
OnM: Thereby proving to herself that this was a role that
didn't fit. We saw a number of moments over
the course of several episodes where Buffy admits to her confidants
(Willow, Xander, Spike) that she's
uncomfortable in this leadership role, but thinks that this is
what is expected of her. But the expectations are
those of others around her, not what her own are. She needs
time to realize this. It's there, waiting to come
out, but she needs a bit of a push to accept herself as a leader
whose own methodology is valid and effective.
The final transition takes place after she is faced with rejection
by her sister, the one person she can't rationalize
as being 'against' her. She has to re-evalute her actions, come
to trust herself and her own instincts, not borrow
the instincts of others. That she is capable of doing so is proven
when she passes the mantle of leadership to
Faith, of all people. A lesser being would never have done this,
but her own instincts tell her it is what must be
done. And Faith rises to the challenge, although with some difficulties
along the way, and proves Buffy correct.
And Spike, of course, comes through with the emotional support
that eventually leads Buffy to the Scythe.
EC: The very nifty-looking but very deus ex machina axe
that mysteriously saves the day. Sorta
convenient though, eh?
OnM: I really don't get why there is such a fuss about
this in some quarters. Joss is a comic book fan,
and comic books are chock full of deus ex machinas and always
have been. In the comic universes, stuff just
happens. Unpredictability is the norm.
EC: But there was never the slightest mention of the damn
thing the whole time the series was on the
air. Shouldn't it have been foreshadowed somewhere? You know,
an allusion or a hint or two?
OnM: Why? Isn't it more of a surprise the way it was done?
I really loved the Scythe, and what was
done with it. I can see that if one thinks that 7.22 was 'the
end', then the Scythe was indeed a simplistic plot
device that seemed to come in at the last minute just to save
the day. But the Buffyverse continues to expand and
grow. It's not gone unless Joss unexpectedly croaks, and even
if such a horrid fate should befall the world, I
think Marti and Espenson and Petrie and Fury and Greenwalt and
all the others understand the thing well enough
to make it keep on living. The legacy is real, it will outlive
its creator no matter what.
EC: Gee. Sorta like if I'd outlive you!
OnM: Nuh-uh-uh. Then I think we're doomed. Sorry.
~ ~ ~ ( To Be Continued ) ~ ~ ~
[> Preserving -- Masq,
12:07:56 07/16/03 Wed
[> Preserving...just wrote
longish reply to Odyssey, not up for 'nother just yet -- Random,
15:30:00 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> Preserving again
-- d'Herblay, 21:39:09 07/17/03 Thu
[> argh! shouldn't try to
reply this late... -- anom, 00:07:26 07/17/03 Thu
...esp. when i'm also chatting! OK...save what I have so far...try
tomorrow...post about it to try to keep thread up (again)....
Masq, thanks for bringing it back!
[> scattered comments--hope
they're worth the double thread restoration! -- anom, 10:33:57
07/18/03 Fri
I almost posted this under d'Herblay's "Preserving again"
as "Restored again." Or maybe it should've been "Thanks
again"!
--------------------
"...that one report we found about manipulating DNA to strip
away the part of the code that controls the development of the
ego and superego and leave only the id remaining was pretty scary.
It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that concept into
a virus deliverable in pill form that could genetically reprogram
innocent individuals."
It's gonna be a loooooonng time before anything like that's possible.
Nobody knows what part of DNA controls the development of the
mind--the brain is complex enough, & we're only at the
very beginning of the Genome Age. Besides, in terms of sales opportunities,
it'd leave everyone broke very soon, & that wouldn't be good for
sales. And how would they get it past the FDA?
"Things get so hairy that Willow has to transport him to
the alternate universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone
on Earth subscribes to Scientific American."
Heehee! Well, at least cjl would have complete job security!
"They just wanna be out of the line of fire and go home."
But is anyplace going to be out of the line of fire if the Slayer
side doesn't win? How much of a choice is the other side
gonna give them? This is the thumb on the scale of Buffy's decision
to activate potentials even though some--maybe even most--of them
have no idea what's going on.
"Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had become
a Slayer until Merrick found her in Los Angeles. This has always
puzzled me-- how could she not know she was suddenly gifted? In
Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls knew
that something happened, that's for sure."
I'd like to offer a slight fanwank: the Willow-enhanced spell
gave an extra boost to the awakening of the Slayer power that
made it perceptible, whether any particular Potential was expecting
it or not. Or having it happen to so many at once gave it a synergy
that had the same effect. (It occurred to me to wonder if the
Scythe had glowed every time a new Slayer was called over thousands
of years.) In a way, it reminds me of the "click" that
was referred to so often in Ms. magazine's letter pages,
when a woman realized that something she'd always accepted as
the way things were was restricting her based on her sex. When
just a few women were coming to such realizations on an individual
basis, they might not have connected it to society-wide conditions.
But when it happens on a larger scale, when it starts to affect
an entire society's consciousness, there's something to "click"
into, and the women who experience such a moment are more aware
of it. Maybe that's the metaphor.
"OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is
still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about it, she will
give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn it down,
or worse yet, go the Faith route and turn to evil.... The NC members
will have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own
creation.... And in the meantime, ordinary people could get injured
or killed.
EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but there was
only one. You kill her off, and another takes her place, and hopefully
things work out better. Now they have lost that advantage."
They do have a new advantage, though...their own experience w/the
dark side. Faith herself, Willow, Buffy...they have an understanding
the old Council never could have of what power can do to a person,
& they might be able to reach possible rogue Slayers the way Angel
almost reached Faith after she'd killed Finch...until the Council
interfered. Of course, they're not around to do that anymore,
are they? The problem is that the New Council would have to find,
& try to intervene with, any rogues on a case-by-case basis. I
wonder how much detail there is in Willow's ability to "feel"
all the new Slayers. Can she locate them? Tell what their mental
state is? Know the best approach to take for each one?
And on a more general scale, the diversity of experience among
the Sunnydale Slayers (sheesh--sounds like a sports team!) may
help them relate to more of the new Slayers than a smaller group
could & let them bring more of them into the fold.
"Whatever supernatural forces govern the selection of potentials
may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral nature.
We are citing Faith as an example, but Faith wasn't inherently
evil, she had circumstances that pushed her in that direction
and she gave in to human weakness and followed that path."
But isn't that always the case? Is any human "inherently
evil"? We could ask this of the real world as well as the
Buffyverse, but in the latter, it's made explicit that the human
soul predisposes people to good, so turning to evil would always
require circumstances to give a push. I don't think even Warren
was presented as inherently evil.
"But I admire how ME didn't make it easy for us, at least
not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial
idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't attempted to rape Buffy,
and felt remorse about doing so afterward, he would never have
gone to get his soul back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy
hadn't eventually accepted his remorse as being genuine and allowed
him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil
could have won. All cause and effect, as I pointed out in my earlier
primary review on Chosen. This is disconcerting to think about,
but there it is. Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have
been placed in the circumstances that allowed her to greatly amplifiy
her magical abilities, and she likely could not have been able
to cast the spell that distributed the power of the Scythe to
all the world's potentials."
This train of thought could indeed be disconcerting. But the "cause"
events we saw may not have been the only ones that could have
brought about the "effect" ones. For example, if Spike
had already been dusted, or had remained soulless but survived,
Angel could have worn the amulet. (I'm talking just about the
internal reality of the show here--obviously he couldn't have
suffered Spike's fate & still have been back for his own show's
next season. And Buffy would have been devastated at leaving him
behind to burn--we'd never have seen that smile at the end.) They
could also have come up w/another way for Willow's powers to expand.
On the other hand, it may be even more disconcerting that there
were other possible causes, but these were the ones that actually
did lead to the effects.
I'm really glad you mentioned LeGuin, & the Guide's line from
Intervention. I hadn't thought of Buffy's forgiveness of Spike
in light of "Love...give...forgive" before. Now I can
hardly believe I didn't!
"Freedom is slavery,...teleport her to Brazil anytime she
wants."
Yes, I'm going for the longest ellipsis interval on record here.
What the hell connection could there possibly be between what
comes before & after that ellipse? Why, just coincidence, of course--I
happened to see the 1985 movie Brazil on Sunday, for the
1st time. It's funny & horrifying & it takes place in a dystopia
w/blatantly Orwellian billboard exhortations (maybe not "Freedom
is slavery," but close) & ministry names; the ending, although
less ambiguous, made me think of Normal Again (just to keep from
ending this post totally O/T). [BTW, I gotta digress to say I
saw it at Symphony Space's Thalia theater, & it was so
nice not to have to sit through 20 minutes of ads & previews.
The place was actually quiet until the feature began!]
[> [> ...it's gonna be
gone again, isn't it? despite my blatantly desperate attempt to
preserve it -- anom, *almost* resigned, 17:25:42 07/18/03
Fri
[> so much to say about
this...but not tonight--sleep 1st! -- anom, doing my part
to keep the thread up, 23:13:39 07/13/03 Sun
[> 'Fascinating',I say,
raising one Spocklike eyebrow.. -- jane, 23:28:48 07/13/03
Sun
[> Choices - Out of Eden
-- Rahael, 03:31:45 07/14/03 Mon
One of the things that I have been thinking about re Buffy's final
choice, and the argument that this is really enslaving young women.
I should state up front that I don't think it is enslavement.
Will the demons go away, the vampires, the monsters, the things
that lurk in the night, if Buffy hadn't made that choice? No,
they would not have.
Would these girls have been spared the dilemmas and pains that
Buffy has faced, metaphorically represented by these demons, if
she hadn't allowed the potential to awaken? No.
What did Buffy do exactly? She gave them eyes to see the demons,
and the emotional strength to fight them. And it's important that
they were potentials, because it means that the power was already
there. Buffy just awoke it.
I was struck by a quote from a recent Joss interview, about loneliness.
How he had always been lonely. And that was something that really
leapt at me. I don't think Buffy's loneliness will simply go away
because she's shared her power. I think the loneliness and sadness
that sometimes pervaded the Buffyverse is a loneliness and sadness
that I share, and one that cannot be divested simply because one
is no longer alone. I do not face death with equanimity.
But I think we are meant to understand that Buffy came to some
kind of resolution when she watched Spike die. She was able to
come close to the time when she watched Angel die, when she killed
Angel, and once again face this crucial moment, and come to some
kind of resolution. Does she know this time that it wasn't the
end? Was the crucial point this time that Spike knew what would
happen to him, and was able to accept it? Angel died with his
eyes closed, still loving Buffy - she deceived him. Spike died
with his eyes open, denying Buffy's love. A lie? A truth? Or something
that was not untrue and not unkind. (I am here not suggesting
that one vamp is better than the other. I am suggesting that Spike
and Angel stand in for each other, especially since we know that
Buffy specifically denies Angel as the one to be sacrificed this
time around).
The sharing of power is linked to Buffy's fear of death in anotehr
way. Throughout season 7, we learn that the most terrible thing
about the Slayer line is that one slayer had to die before the
next is called. This is what is so destructive about being a Slayer
- not the naughty black evil, but that all these girls are just
waiting for Buffy to die so they can be the chosen one. That is
the destructive cycle that Buffy finally breaks. That's how she
conquers death twice in Chosen. That's why the message of Chosen
is Rebirth, just as the series ends.
And yes, the Choice she makes isn't all light. The girls will
face hardship because they will use their power in the service
of others. But, can anyone on this board say that they have not
faced hardships and pain? I am the last person who says that pain
ennobles. But I do think helping others, reaching out, and finding
a place in the world through a sense of community mitigates the
loneliness, the sadness, and enriches our sense of our own self,
because the idea of self is only made meaningful by the existence
of others. Other, important, loveable, respectworthy selves.
[> [> Entirely positive
post about S7! Catch them while you can! -- Rahael, 03:32:58
07/14/03 Mon
and yes, this is a blatant attempt to keep the thread alive.
[> [> [> *sob* You
don't know how happy you've made me, Rah! -- The Cheerleadery
One, tissue-box in hand, 08:38:37 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Hehe,
Rob! and Thanks, OnM! -- Rahael, 16:24:28 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
Rah! You *know* we resolved at the last meeting that...
-- Random, 23:12:52 07/16/03 Wed
we weren't allowed to make Rob any happier. He will explode from
joy and that would be bad...I mean, the mess will incredibly icky
to clean up. So remember: Miserable Rob = returned security deposit.
[> [> Very nice - an
excellent defense of the situation. Thanks! -- OnM, 07:36:16
07/14/03 Mon
[> [> She liked it!
-- ponygirl, 09:46:46 07/14/03 Mon
Well, at least that part!
Very nice, Rah. I don't quite get the problem some have with Buffy's
decision in Chosen. Yes, we have been trained to see the negative
side of Slayerdom, to understand that it is a burden more than
a gift. But in many ways it is the burden of living. Hot chick
with superpowers aside, what Buffy faces are the problems of being
alive in the world on a grand metaphorical scale. None of us ask
to be born, but I think most parents would wish for their child
to be powerful, to have the strength to make choices, for good
or for ill.
Buffy is giving these girls something that she never had - a shared
burden. None of them will ever have to be the only girl in all
the world. Their deaths will be their own, not the condemnation
of another to the same fate.
[> [> [> And of course
one of the major signs that the spell was of the good...Will went
WHITE. -- Rob, 10:08:16 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Actually
that I didn't like so much -- ponygirl, 13:44:12 07/14/03
Mon
I don't think Willow should have to be checking her roots for
reassurance about whether a spell is good or bad... but they had
established the dark hair thing from last year and of course the
Gandalf tie-in.
[> [> [> [> [>
As a visual symbol, though, it was a concise way to display
this w/o saying it expositionally. -- Rob, 14:23:02 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agreed -- ponygirl, 14:38:18 07/14/03 Mon
[> So Where are Parts I
and II? -- Dochawk - who misses too much when he goes on vacation,
07:00:11 07/14/03 Mon
Though the vacation was clearly worth it and necessary.
[> [> Apologize on the
slowness of the archives -- Masq, 07:11:12 07/14/03 Mon
Breaking in some new archivers, and having some busy life stuff
going on myself. I can find the first two parts on my hard drive
and send them to you if you want.
[> [> I'll get 'em mailed
to you, Doc. You should already have the main review. -- OnM,
07:29:29 07/14/03 Mon
I mailed that out last week or thereabouts. If you didn't get
it, let me know.
The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- ZachsMind, 09:14:06 07/14/03 Mon
Now that the entire seven year run is behind us, and we can see
the entire tapestry laid out without concern for that which is
missing, there's one thing which I find intriguing. And granted,
we can surmise that the story will continue to unfold in Angel
in an indirect way but for all intents and purposes the story
of Sunnydale itself has been capsulized with the cratering of
Sunnydale. So the events inside Sunnydale, except where affecting
the outside world, can be dissected, reversed, turned inside and
out, etcetera, without much fear of continuity reprisal. I mean,
I couldn't ask the question I'm about to pose at the end of season
five, but I should be able to do so now.
That question is this: what if Dawnie was there from Day One?
What if Joss had thought that far ahead? What we know is that
immediately after Dracula's appearance (and subsequent disappearance)
from Sunnydale, Dawn just magically appears, and all the Scoobies
(apparently everyone in Sunnydale except the occasional lunatic)
just immediately accepts her in their continuity. Even the godlike
Glory can stare right at her and not see the truth, despite the
fact that half the time she was insane herself.
So we're led to assume that temporally, Dawn was a green glowing
glob somewhere in a monastery until September of 2000. However,
after September of 2000, everyone had memories of Dawn having
been in their lives. We're given hints throughout the rest of
the series precisely what those memories are, and that after the
initial shock in season five, the Scoobies just naturally accept
this rewrite of their past to accomodate Dawn's presence. So that,
for all intents and purposes, Dawn is subjectively real. From
the perspective of Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles, Dawnie was
there with them since Buffy's first day of school in March of
1997.
Precisely what happened in those interum years, at least in the
memories of our Scooby gang? It's theorized that had the animated
series been successful, this rewrite would have been made more
clear. However, since that may not be the case, and since we fans
of the series are now facing an indeterminate amount of time where
the stories of the Scoobies' future are left in doubt, perhaps
now's an opportunity for a little retcon. Can we reverse engineer
the first four years of Buffy's history to ascertain where Dawnie
might have fit in? Can this be done without adversely affecting
the history, or would her presence have naturally made dramatic
changes, like bring Jonathan or Amy more into the Scooby fold,
for example? Or since she would have been in junior high while
Buffy was in high school, and then high school when her sister
was in college, would Dawnie have had little to no effect those
first three years?
When did Dawn learn of Buffy's Slayer powers, and why didn't she
tell Joyce? How did Dawn's infatuation with Xander develop? How
would Dawn have interacted with Cordy, Angel, Oz, Snyder, Faith
or other characters?
Would this make the overall story more enjoyable, or less? What
do you think?
[> What Do We Know? (The
Dawn Paradox continued) -- ZachsMind, 13:51:40 07/14/03
Mon
Since no one else is taking the bait, I'll try to sweeten the
worm a little bit.
Dawn's first appearance in the BuffyVerse is Episode 1 of Season
5 at the very end. The original airdate was September 26th, 2000.
This is like, Ground Zero. Everything after this point lends us
potential clues for what went on before, if only in the memories
of our principal players. The source material confirms that Dawn
was ten years old in season one ("Shadow") and fourteen
in season five ("Crush"). We're never told when (they
believe) her birthday is. That may be because it's in the summer
some time.
In "Real Me" we learn that Joyce often leaves Dawn in
Buffy's hands to watch over, even when Buffy is doing her Slayer
training duties with Giles. We learn Dawn has decided opinions
about each of the principals, recalling that old-timer Giles once
used the word "newfangled." Ironically, I can find only
one other instance when that word was used, and it wasn't Giles
who said it. Dawn seemed to always look up to Tara & Willow, and
she had a crush on Xander early on, who apparently had often been
her babysitter in the first four years. Apparently this was the
first time she met a crazy person. Until this moment she had no
clue to her strange existence.
The pickings get a little slim after the first episode, but glimpses
into the memories of Dawn & the others are given throughout the
bulk of the fifth season. In the episode "No Place Like Home"
Buffy hints that Dawn never could take an apology, which insinuates
Buffy's had to apologize to her before. "Ever since.."
Buffy's voice trails off. We do not know the details, only that
there was one other time. Perhaps a painful time.
In season five's "Family" we learn Dawn has a biased
opinion against alcohol, but appears oblivious to the fact many
of Buffy's friends occasionally partake. Why she has this opinion
though is not made clear.
In "Shadow" we learn Dawn has a memory about riding
a carousel with Buffy and Joyce for a full hour on her birthday.
This was when she was ten, and was according to Dawn during her
first year in Sunnydale (some time in season one). We also learn
there is some kind of history between Riley & Dawn which may or
may not have leaked into the preceding year (season four). Dawn
notes that Buffy cried less while dating Riley than she did when
dating Angel.
"Into The Woods" Dawn reported a memory where she used
to put chopsticks in her mouth like fangs, and Buffy would chase
her around the house yelling "I'm a slayer, I'm gonna get
you." This may have only happened once, or perhaps a few
times. It may have been soon after Dawn learned Buffy's secret
some time in season two or three. Probably when Joyce wasn't around,
because if Joyce saw Dawn running around with chopsticks in her
mouth it woulda been worse than running with scissors to a parent.
Dawn later points out whenever she plays games with Anya & Xander
(potentially late season three onward) that Anya always wins.
There's also a moment where Dawn admits that on more than one
occasion, Buffy has managed to have Dawn put into the custody
of someone else (usually Xander) "so Buffy and Riley can
bonk." Although Buffy spent most of season four away from
home, it's apparent that this behavior has been going on for awhile.
It might have happened once or twice before "Real Me."
In "Triangle" we're given a hint that Dawn had to warm
up to Riley. That at first she didn't like him but just before
Buffy & Riley broke up she was warming up to him, probably because
of the Buffy doesn't cry around Riley like she did around Angel
thing.
The first time Dawn & Spike really talk to one another is in "Blood
Ties," but their interchange indicates they were familiar
with one another already, probably on a very peripheral level
(like in season two when Spike was still all GrrrArghy). This
may be the first time they were alone together. Had Spike & Dawn
actually had words prior to "Blood Ties," it was when
Spike was decidedly more evil, which would have given Dawn's attitude
towards him in that episode much more weight. His first nickname
for her is 'Nibblet' and he says it as if he's referred to her
in that manner before.
However, in "Crush" we're led to believe Dawn had never
been in Spike's crypt before, that she only then realized how
Spike travels by the sewers in the daytime, and that she wouldn't
have even dared be around Spike alone before she realized she
wasn't really human. So if Dawn met Spike back in season two,
it was definitely while she was tagging along with the other Scoobies,
and NEVER by herself.
By "Blood Ties" Dawn has learned about her true nature,
and even cut herself in an attempt to prove her humanity to herself.
Joyce & Buffy try to comfort her but she begins to feel the weight
of having memories of a life unlived. This begs the question:
never in the history of the series have WE seen Dawn and Hank
(her father) together. Hank only made a couple appearances in
the first two seasons of the series ("Nightmares & "When
She Was Bad" predominantly). Having not been in Sunnydale
from that point onward, would he even recall Dawn? Or did the
monks' magicks have no affect on him? WE know that the monks made
Dawn out of Buffy's blood, so technically she's a magical clone
of Buffy. She's not really Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn
remembers Hank as her father, would Hank have any recollection
of Dawn? And would prolonged exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly
get brain cancer and die, like what happened to Joyce? Has this
already happened anyway?
We learn from Glory in "Blood Ties" that Dawn's true
nature is "a bright green swirly shimmer." At least
that's what she looked like when Glory last saw Dawn's true self
(probably circa 12th century in Tarnis). However, Dawn's never
revealed in that way throughout the series, with the potentially
apocryphal exception of season seven, when Willow does a magic
spell that goes through Dawn & the door and hits Amanda, we see
a glimpse of a YELLOW ball of energy inside Dawn. This could be
cuz the energy Willow shot out was yellow. It may have no bearing
on Dawn's true self, but it sure looks suspicious.
Hmm... twelfth century. This means Dawn is almost as old as Anya.
Possibly older. Trivially, we're told Dawn got an allowance from
Joyce but we don't know how much it was.
[> [> Re: What Do We
Know? (The Dawn Paradox continued) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:39:14
07/14/03 Mon
"Hank......Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward,
would he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect
on him? WE know that the monks made Dawn out of Buffy's blood,
so technically she's a magical clone of Buffy. She's not really
Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn remembers Hank as her father,
would Hank have any recollection of Dawn? And would prolonged
exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly get brain cancer and die,
like what happened to Joyce? Has this already happened anyway?"
Hmmmm... ok..First off, I think that since Angel and Faith both
remember Dawn (neither of them actually being around when Dawn
was introduced), its a pretty safe bet that Hank does. After all,
he was her 'father' and therefore more likely to go visit the
family in Sunnydale than the imprisoned psycho Slayer, or the
vampire ex-boyfriend.
Secondly, and I realise that this is a common theory amongst some,
why is it that people think that Dawn somehow caused Joyce's tumour?
It was stated time and again by the writers that Joyce's illness
was there to show A) that Buffy can't fight *everything* and B)
that sometimes people die from non-demonic causes ('no monsters
involved' say officials).
And if prolonged exposure to inter-dimensional energy-based artificial
life-forms who happen to unlock portals between worlds caused
brain (or any other type) cancer, why aren't any of the scoobs
dead, or suffering, from it? Not to mention the fact that Hank
clearly has not had prolonged exposure to Dawn (he may have memories
of her, but so far as we know, he has never actually met her)
so wouldn't have been magickally irradiated by her.
Oh, and although we didn't see it ourselves, Willow could see
Dawnie as all green and glowy at the end of S6, when she was all
evil and veiny.
I always wondered if Dru would be able to tell, you know, what
with being psychic *and* crazy.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> Why Dawn
caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- ZachsMind, 06:54:46 07/15/03
Tue
There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions prior
to season five - Dawn's first appearance.
The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce
was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's
true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact that she
had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise.
Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of birth,
if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more times
than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way.
Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just happened
to be where the tumor was located. Coincidental and circumstantial,
but coupled with the time factor and the whole "crazy people
can see Dawn" thing, it's enough for me.
If Joyce had been dying of anything not related to the brain then
I'd agree with you. However, I firmly believe that if Dawn never
showed up, Joyce would have still been around. She wouldn't have
died from after-effects of brain surgery.
In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional world
inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by a demon,
that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer powers but
was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate reality,
Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the events depicted
in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and well, and there
never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate reality and not
a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies it.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Why Dawn caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- O'Cailleagh, 07:35:45
07/15/03 Tue
"There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions
prior to season five"
How about before the show began? We don't know Joyce's medical
history, or that of her parents etc. Besides which, illnesses
of all kinds can manifest without a person having ever been previously
ill.
It *could* have been any number of things that caused the tumour,
such as using cell phones, living in close proximity to power
lines, or a very large amount of physical and/or emotional stress.
"The writers established that as her condition worsened,
Joyce was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to
see Dawn's true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact
that she had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise."
Brain tumours are known to cause odd behaviour and the like...I
hesitate to use the term psychotic...the reason for this is the
tumour presses on the part of the brain it has formed in, this
affects the working of the brain.
"Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of
birth, if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more
times than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way."
Well since most people don't believe in the existence of magick,
this wouldn't surprise me. However, it would be entirely possible
to convince a mother that she had given birth a different number
of times through hypnosis, for example. Also mental illness could
have a similar effect. My grandmother, who suffered from Alzheimer's,
was convinced that my sister and I were her children, in addition
to the four children she had in 'reality'.
"Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just
happened to be where the tumor was located."
The tumour was located in the brain, not the mind, they are two
different things, connected, but different. Unless you're saying
that the tumour was located in the part of the brain that was
producing the odd behaviour. In which case, I addressed that above.
To reiterate, it was the tumour causing the odd behaviour, not
the other way around.
"In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional
world inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by
a demon, that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer
powers but was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate
reality, Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the
events depicted in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and
well, and there never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate
reality and not a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies
it."
Yes, it was either a delusion, or it was an Alternate Universe.
If it was delusion, then..well that explains itself. If however
it was an AU, then that also explains itself. It was an Alternate
Universe. Emphasis on Alternate. They are called this because
things turned out differently causing alternate events to happen.
This would be why Hank is still with the family, why they are
still in LA, why Buffy isn't a Slayer, and why Sunnydale doesn't
even exist. Choices affect the future, you make different choices,
and different events unfold.
The fact that Hank and Joyce divorced had nothing to do with Dawn
in the 'real' Buffyverse (since she was still just the Key at
this point) so obviously, her not being in the Asylumverse had
nothing to do with why Hank and Joyce are *not* divorced. So why
is it that Joyce still being alive does?
Maybe, in the Asylumverse, the lack of Slayer related stress for
Joyce (emotional trauma), and the deficit of attempts on her life
(physical and emotional trauma), are what saves her from developing
cancer. Or maybe her diet was better, including more anti-oxidants
and less free-radicals. Who knows?
Its an interesting theory, it really is, but it doesn't stand
up to any kind of scrutiny, plus it flies in the face of what
the writers told us about Joyce's death. They maybe contradictory
sometimes, or misdirect us on occasion, but outright lying about
the show isn't something that they really do. Except when spoilers
are an issue of course.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> That
argument ONLY works if the asylumverse is real... -- Rob,
07:36:59 07/15/03 Tue
And the important thing we learned in that episode was that it
was not important which reality was really real, but what
was most real to Buffy. Buffy chose the red pill, or the blue
pill, or whatever. She made her decision. Thus that is what really
happened. Also, as stated before, there is more proof in that
episode that the Asylum is the dream than vice versa, such as
the fact that we are almost always in Buffy's POV in the Asylum
scenes (except for the end), but not always in the Sunnydale scenes.
There are no scenes in the Asylum without Buffy in them; Buffy
is not in every Sunnydale scene.
The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce
was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's
true nature.
And that, IMO, is all that is important. To begin with, we were
given a red herring, when Joyce was able to see Dawn wasn't there,
then fainted. It was a direct mislead to get us to believe that
Dawn might possibly be evil, or, at least, causing the tumor.
At that time, many of us were suspicious as to her true nature.
Later though it was clear that Joyce's sickness was of completely
natural causes. It allowed her to see Dawn for who she really
is, just like all people with mental afflictions, but as you said,
it's completely circumstantial and coincidental. The fact that
her death in The Body is completely non-supernatural in
anyway is very important.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
So are we to assume... -- ZachsMind, 12:45:29 07/15/03
Tue
So are we to assume, had Dawn never showed up, Joyce would have
died of complications from a brain tumor anyway? I don't buy that.
Yes of course the writers wanted us to believe Dawn was evil.
It helped with the suspense and allowed for opportunities of surprise
and reveal. I'm not insinuating Dawn ever was evil. She's not.
However, her arrival was a catalyst that caused Joyce's illness.
There was no indication Joyce was sick before Dawn's arrival.
Dawn shows up in 5.1, is featured prominently in 5.2, and Joyce
starts getting headaches in 5.3.
JOYCE: (sighs, puts hand to her forehead) This must be my "two
teenage girls in the house" headache. I thought it felt familiar.
BUFFY: Good work, Dawn. You gave her a headache.
DAWN: I did not! (to Joyce) Did I give you a headache, Mom? I'm
sure part of it is Buffy's.
BUFFY: But part of it is Dawn's.
JOYCE: It's so nice you've learned to share.
It is insinuated this is not the first headache she's had because
of having "two teenage girls in the house." I'll grant
that, but it's only because the infiltration of artificial memories
grew retroactively from the point of "Temporal Ground Zero"
which is around September of 2000. There's no previous indication
in the first four seasons that Joyce got head aches. In fact the
only other time I can recall headaches being mentioned prominently
in the series was in season one, during The Puppet Show. And it
was about one of the Scoobies' classmates, not about Joyce at
all.
And to be fair, Dawn was only indirectly causing Joyce's cancer.
The direct cause was the powerful magic that the monks introduced
into the world. Dawn can't actually be blamed for it. As Willow
would be the first to attest, powerful magic like this does not
come without a price. In order for Dawn's life to begin, there
had to be a sacrifice.
Ultimately that's what this was. The trading of one life for another.
The one closest to Buffy. Had Dawn not torn that picture in half
in "Forever" Joyce would have come back completely normal,
and Dawn would have died. Probably right there on the spot. There's
a curious balance and order to the universe that not even magic
can prevent.
Of course then there'd be this green glowing thing where Dawn
had been, everybody would have immediately forgotten about Dawn
cuz the spell would have been broken by another spell, and then
Glory woulda found the green glowing glob and destroyed the world
before Buffy had a chance to figure out what was going on, so
everything turned out for the best but we still had to lose Joyce
in order to get Dawn. Dawn's life meant Joyce's death.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: So are we to assume... -- O'Cailleagh, 01:33:01
07/16/03 Wed
Well...you're clearly not willing to listen to other people's
points of view on this whole thing. Rob, Anom and myself have
all given you very good reasons for Dawn not being the cause of
the cancer. The most important one being because the writers said
so. You may as well say that Joyce's illness was caused by Buffy
saying (in S1?) "I hope it's a funny aneurism".
Like I said, it *is* an interesting theory, it just doesn't pan
out. Apologies for any typos or if this came off as snarky, I'm
very tired cos I've been out all night, but wanted to respond
before Voynak came a-chomping.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> it wasn't me -- anom, 09:34:44 07/16/03
Wed
Thanks, but I can't take credit. I didn't address the issue of
whether Dawn's existence had anything to do w/Joyce's tumor.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Oops! My bad, sorry anom. -- O'Cailleagh,
13:29:48 07/16/03 Wed
It seems my sleep-deprived state twisted my memory of your post
around!
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I do listen to other points of view... -- ZachsMind,
13:25:22 07/16/03 Wed
Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. =P
[> [> 3 things, for now
-- anom, 10:36:21 07/15/03 Tue
I should start by admitting I haven't had time to read this whole
thread, so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's already been
said.
"Apparently this was the first time she met a crazy person.
Until this moment she had no clue to her strange existence."
Since Dawn had existed for only a short time, it may well have
been the 1st time. She may have memories that she was created
with of meeting crazy people before, but those memories would
have been of "normal" encounters with crazy people,
meaning the same kind people who aren't the Key have w/them. Dawn's
memories of the time since she was imposed on reality (that's
a Borges reference) are real memories & need to be distinguished
from the ones that were created by the monks.
"Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward, would
he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect
on him?"
This q. has come up before (I was one of the ones asking them).
We've seen that Angel & Faith remembered Dawn even though they
weren't in Sunnydale when she was created (or transformed from
the green energy). Angelus retains the memory back in LA--he calls
& talks to Dawn to find out if Buffy is the Slayer he hears is
around, & it's implied Angel had previously kept in touch & knew
of her, probably before he came back to Sunnydale for Joyce's
funeral. So Hank probably has memories of Dawn too.
One difference I can think of in how the earlier storyline might
have run is that when Buffy sent Joyce out of town before graduation,
it might have been a lot easier to convince her to go if she'd
been taking Dawn to safety. Joyce would probably have put up less
of an argument & felt less as though she were abandoning Buffy
in the face of a threat.
[> Re: The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- Wolfhowl3, 09:43:56 07/14/03 Mon
My guess is that Dawn found out about Buffy being the slayer at
the same time the Joyce did. (end of Season 2)
I'm guessing that one of the major differences is that Angelus
would have targetted Dawn as well as Buffy's Friends, maybe even
trying to kill her when he showed up to kill Joyce.
Wolfie
[> [> Re: The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- ZachsMind, 10:10:02 07/14/03 Mon
Just Angel? Would the Master not have targetted Dawnie in season
one? Dru in season two? Adam in season four? What about Faith?
Dawnie being added into the mix brings about a lot of possibilities
not otherwise available.
As for learning the same time Joyce did, I can't quite agree with
that. The reason is because of "Ted." Buffy reacted
coldly to Ted. Dawnie would have been even moreso. In fact this
is one of the areas where the girls had something in common -
they would have percieved Ted as an interloper, trying to replace
their father. Dawn would not have warmed up to Ted any more than
Buffy did.
I surmise from this that the sharing of a common enemy would have
temporarily forced a truce between the two siblings, and in the
course of fighting Ted, Dawn would have seen where Joyce was still
oblivious. Basically her big sister being ubernatural in kicking
butt against a robot. If prior to "Ted" Dawn hadn't
figured out Buffy was up to the same old tricks she before the
three of them had to move, after that episode it would have been
impossible for her to deny it.
Sexy Riley?
-- Rina, 09:58:00 07/14/03 Mon
It's ironic how many people either assume that Riley wasn't a
very sexual man. Or that the actor Marc Blucas, wasn't very good
at projecting sexuality.
A few days ago, I watched the episode, "Something Blue".
Remember the scene where Riley took Buffy on a picnic? And when
she revealed that she doesn't drive? Well, Riley was stating the
pleasures of driving and I had the unusual feeling that he was
using it as a metaphor for sex. And I must be honest, I was just
as turned on by his description as Buffy obviously was.
[> Re: Sexy Riley? --
LadyStarlight, 10:12:55 07/14/03 Mon
I caught that too when I was rewatching that, Rina.
I think it was the whole package (tone of voice, the look on his
face) that sold that scene.
[> [> Re: Sexy Riley?
- or Marc Blucas? -- curious, 10:29:29 07/14/03 Mon
I always thought Marc Blucas was a pretty competent actor and
liked Riley well enough - especially after he grows past his black
and white trust of the Initiative and Maggie. I just didn't find
that he and SMG had a lot of sexual chemistry together. Part of
it was that he is sooo much bigger than she is. (Seth Green comments
on his size on the s4 DVD.) But petite women seem to go for big
guys so maybe that's just my predjudice.
I also recall a JW comment to the effect that they tried to give
Buffy a nice boyfriend and the audience thought she walked all
over him. I wasn't sure if he was kidding and that was his intention
in writing B/R or if he was frustrated that the audience couldn't
see Buffy with anyone but Angel.
BTW, Blucas is in a new movie called "I Capture the Castle"
based on J.K. Rowling's favorite book. I think he plays a romantic
character. Might be interesting to see how he pulls off that role.
[> [> [> I Capture
the Castle -- LadyStarlight, 10:39:32 07/14/03 Mon
That's one of my favorite books (and a big reason why I spent
money I really didn't have when QPBC released it a while back)
and I'm waffling about making a movie out of it.
MB will fit the role, I think, but I've been terribly disappointed
by movies based on books before. (I'm still traumatized by "Clan
of the Cave Bear") But I'll reserve judgement until I see
the movie.
I liked him in "We Were Soldiers" and thought he did
a great job.
[> [> [> Sexy Marc
Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head:: -- Wicked
Buffy, 10:45:12 07/14/03 Mon
Interesting point!
Just now, when I tried separating the actor from the character,
I discovered it was Marc Blucas I didn't care for - not Riley.
I always thought I didn't care much for Riley, but it wasn't that.
Just my personal taste, of course. If I try imagining someone
else, anyone else* playing the role of Riley, I like the
character MUCH more.
What a nice way to start the day. I don't like not liking an ME
character. :>
*possible choices that I mentally substituted in Blucas'
role: Johnny Depp, Antonia Bandaras, Barbara Streisand, Sylvester
Stallone, Marilyn Manson, Al Gore, PeeWee Herman. see? I really
did give MB a chance! :>
[> [> [> [> Re:
Sexy Marc Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head::
-- purplegrrl, 11:04:30 07/14/03 Mon
**Sylvester Stallone**
My brain just went to a "Yo, Buffy" place, which made
me laugh!!
Personally I think Marc Blucas had just the right look for a wholesome,
corn-fed Iowa boy -- sort of that "Jack Armstrong, All-American
Boy" look.
Some victims
less important? -- K-Dizzy, 10:50:15 07/14/03 Mon
Gosh, all this ongoing talk- still!- about the "AR"
in Seeing Red. And some mention of how posters/ME have "trivialized"
this issue, including the forgiveness part....
But how come no one EVER talks about what happened to Drusilla?
I mean, if people insist on discussing- at length- the sexual
violence committed by an unsouled vampire on BtVS, how can anyone
overlook the most terrible example of this, possibly one of the
most horrifying scenes ever witnessed in the series? By this I
mean Becoming, Pt. 1, with unsouled Angel and Drusilla in the
church. Angel has already admitted that of all of his unsouled
acts, what he did to Drusilla "was the worst." So, we
know that after being stalked by unsouled Angel, innocent virginal
Dru fled to a convent, hoping to save herself in every interpretation
of the word- religiously, psychologically, physically- and is
about to take her vows when she is mercilessly violated. We see
a disheveled Drusilla sitting there collasped on the cold, hard
stone floor like a broken, tossed-away doll, hysterically mumbling
about "snakes in the woodshed," with her tear-stained
and distraught face turned up to the God who has forsaken her,
and see an unsouled Angel just staring at her with those calculating
eyes and the faintest trace of a leer.... And then Darla joins
in the depraved fray and laughing together, delighting in her
terror, they practically roll over onto Dru, who softly issues
a mad giggle from the sheer horror/evilness of what she's experiencing-
it's like the audience can literally SEE her sanity slipping from
her....
Where are the wails of outrage and posts of indignation over this
scene? (And not even factoring in the murder of her entire family
and siring.) I mean, it's an oft-viewed and "classic"
episode, right? One wonders how much more graphic it would have
been if it aired on UPN.... So how is it that "Seeing Red"
can be endlessly cited, but the (very strongly implied) sexual
assault of Drusilla is never even brought up, in all these dedicated
discussions about ARs and such? In fact, for those who absolutely
insist on labeling characters, why is it okay to have a recent
TV Guide cover featuring Buffy pictured right next to "her
attempted killer/Drusilla's rapist"? Clearly, if ME's gonna
play around with hot topics, they've got to expect that certain
characters will be equally roasted, eh? But somehow the actual/admitted
rapes (ARs) of unsouled Angel rarely get mentioned- and his viability
as a 'suitable' romantic partner never questioned- and only one
woman's experience is discussed. This can't be the real message
of "feminist" BtVS, can it? That some victims are less
important? That sexual assault is only worth talking about by
the writers and the fans when the title character is involved...??
[> Re: Some victims less
important? -- ZachsMind, 11:19:34 07/14/03 Mon
Are some victims less important? Yes. Dru was already turned when
we are introduced to her. Her story is told to us after the fact,
and the damage had already been done. However, Buffy's experience
was shown to us inside the confines of the series subjective "real
time" and not a flashback. So for most, the experience of
Buffy's near AR was more emotionally evocative, than Dru's even
more objectively formidable rape experience.
Furthermore, the show's named after Buffy. She IS the lead, so
what happens to her is naturally going to carry more weight than
a more peripheral supporting character - especially if that character
had been previously established as the villian.
Which further proves the injustice in our perception.
Take for example Anya in s.7's "Selfless." We learn
in flashbacks that she has done far worse than kill a handful
of frat boys. However, her causing the Bolshevik Revolution held
less weight having been told to us in flashback, than the experience
detailed to us in the 'real time' present. Especially since she'd
already known what it was like to be human, felt the guilt of
her act as she committed it, and did it anyway. It evoked more
emotion on many levels from the viewer, as opposed to her even
bloodier and more horrific past transgressions before she ever
even met up with the Scoobies.
[> [> Nice to see you
back -- KdS, 15:23:01 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> Good to be
seen. =) -nt -- ZachsMind, 06:42:12 07/15/03 Tue
no text
[> [> Re: Some victims
less important? -- Rina, 08:11:46 07/15/03 Tue
So are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was more important?
Or that viewers simply see it as more important than what happened
to Drusilla?
So, why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to Tara in
"All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies in "Tabula
Rasa"?
[> [> [> Re: Some
victims less important? -- ZachsMind, 09:31:03 07/15/03
Tue
"...are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was
more important? Or that viewers simply see it as more important
than what happened to Drusilla?"
This is why our judicial system is as complicated as it is. Why
twelve people are chosen for a jury instead of one. Why a man
is considered innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what
some people's emotions say. Why the victim is not given an opportunity
to decide the level of punishment. Why lynch mobs and the like
are considered illegal and unethical behavior.
There is inherent in the human psyche a very subjective tendency.
People who we like up until a point where they do something wrong,
emotionally we want to let them off the hook. Whereas someone
who's been a meanie to us in before has a lot of catching up to
do if they want to be a nice guy. Spike was all about that throughout
the series. That was his journey towards redemption. The attempted
rape of Buffy was an example of the runner stumbling along that
journey.
Objectively speaking, there's no comparison between what happened
to Buffy in that bathroom and what happened to Drusilla centuries
before. It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is not more
or less important than the other. Viewers naturally feel the weight
of Buffy's plight moreso than Dru's, for the reasons I explained
before. Had the show been named "Spike & Drusilla" her
story would be given more attention and would be presented differently,
naturally we'd feel more strongly for her. However, the show was
called "Buffy" so the cast & crew focused more on her
overall, naturally we the audience were looking from that perspective,
and Dru's plight got much less attention.
"...why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to
Tara in "All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies
in "Tabula Rasa"?"
I think one of the reasons why so many disliked season six was
not because it was done badly. On the contrary, it was done too
well.
The crew pushed the envelope and in so many ways broke from tradition
and bent the rules that had been established for six years. Buffy
did a couple naughty things when she was turned invivisible by
The Triad. When she went mental because of poisonous demon blood
and thought her friends were delusions she had to destroy? That's
good girl going bad again. Willow's struggle with black magic
was yet another example. Her selfish spellcasting on Tara in "All
The Way." Stealing the car and inadvertently breaking Dawn's
arm in "Wrecked." People were arguing that the writers
were showing how magic is evil all the sudden. That's not the
case at all. Not any more than the insinuation that homosexuality
was evil when Warren killed Tara. There was no connection. No
bearing. Sometimes these things just happen. When Dawn wanted
to bring her mother back to life in season five's "Forever"
Tara explained to her that magic wasn't to be used for such selfish
purposes because there were dire consequences. And then in "Villians"
we learn that not even Osiris, god of the dead, will toy with
"human death by human means." The guy just knows better,
and he's a god! However, despite her fight against using power
for selfish deeds up until then, Willow had come this far and
could not turn back.
At least until Xander's SELFLESS gesture set her straight.
Up until this point, the battle against evil was always outside
the circle of four. Giles, Xander, Willow and Buffy were inseperable.
After "The Yoko Factor" that was no longer the case.
There were cracks in their armor and The First had been trying
to break through that armor since "Restless."
This is what makes season six so controversial. This time, evil
was creeping into the circle because it was the only way it could
defeat them. And in season seven it realized it couldn't even
do that, so that's when it decided to pull all the stops. But
in season six the writers had already decided to break all the
rules. They checked their boundaries and found what their limitations
were. What they could get away with and still call it a Buffy
story. In season seven they went back to basics and drove the
entire thing home. The mantra "it's not about right or wrong
it's about power" permeates the whole of the final season,
and if you look back throughout the series that sentiment is echoed
in many ways.
No victim lacks importance. They are all important. Dru had no
champion to protect her, short of her god who was most decidedly
not doing house calls at the time. Objectively, directing and
writing aside, Dru's plight left her a victim, and the villian
we saw in the present was the consequence of Darla & Angel's cruelty
towards her when she was still alive. They drove her insane, and
they turned her into a tool of evil.
Again. Apples & oranges. What was going on between Buffy & Spike
in that bathroom was a role reversal. It wasn't really what it
appeared to be on the surface.
So, who was the victim there? Buffy? Buffy is no victim. She was
her own champion. She stopped him. She threw him off of her, cuz
she's a Slayer and she's got that kinda power. Spike was a victim
of his own desire, because he gave in to the power of his infatuation
for her. Just as Willow gave in to the power of guilt and remorse
and vengeance. Spike was weak. He gave up control. That's why
he went to get the soul after his realization, because he thought
it would give him power. Buffy was a champion, and had the power
to stop Spike, because he was too weak to stop himself.
The power is not just being a slayer. It's HAVING a choice. Choice
IS power. Think about THAT the next time you vote for or against
a political figure who is "Anti-Choice." =)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Some victims less important? -- Rina, 11:57:11 07/15/03
Tue
"That's why he went to get the soul after his realization,
because he thought it would give him power."
I gather this is merely your opinion and not a fact. Right?
[> Gotta agree here but...
-- curious, 11:23:09 07/14/03 Mon
*I* very much agree with you here. But I think the some members
of the audience - not ME need to ask these questions. Not only
was Drusilla a victim of a horrific crime - she was turned into
an insane monstor who victimized others for over a century. I
think ME does remind us of Angel's past. It is the audience that
places more emphasis on one act than the other.
Angel was in the same unsouled state at the time of that crime
as Spike was when he attempted to attack Buffy and was stopped.
What about locking the lawyers in the cellar with Dru and Darla.
Not saying Angel is "better" than Spike. Just saying
we have seen Angel do much worse things on screen.
[> [> oops! -- curious,
11:42:32 07/14/03 Mon
I meant:
Not saying Spike is "better" than Angel.
[> [> [> Re: oops!
-- Dochawk, 12:01:57 07/14/03 Mon
Both Angelus and Spike were vicious/sadistic vampires. But this
seems to be the nature of vampires (though the Master does claim
that Angelus was particularly vicious). Angelus had more years
to wreak his havoc and has been a central character for much longer
so we see more. Remember Spike told us he didn't want us to know
what he did to girls Dawn's age.
Why was the AR so horrifying? because it happened to us, we are
in Buffy's POV (well we are supposed to be). And because we are
supposed to empathize with the protagonist. Is it worse than what
Angelus did? or Anyanka? Only because its to "my family",
but not on a moral scale. You are much more likely to ask for
the death penalty on someone who killed your sister than for someone
who killed a drug dealer (its why we can let Willow off the hook
easier - she killed a murderer and a drug dealer/rapist). its
also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have a romantic
relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's just me I suppose.
[> [> [> [> Feel
the opposite -- curious, 12:14:34 07/14/03 Mon
its also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have
a romantic relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's
just me I suppose.
I feel the opposite - mostly because Angel was "old enough
to know better" when he initiated his relationship with an
underage Buffy - with a soul. And because Spike attacked Buffy
in the AR scene - and stopped. But I assume that Spike and Angel
both have committed horrific crimes as unsouled vamps and neither
should be "the long haul guy" for a vampire slayer.
I like Angel's character development on AtS but have trouble with
the fact that ME hasn't finally closed that chapter for either
character. I think B/S is more definitively over - and hope both
characters move on because it was an unhealthy relationship. But
I really think B/A was at least as unhealthy but for somewhat
different reasons.
YMMV
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Feel the opposite -- Dochawk, 12:26:37 07/14/03
Mon
Oh please don't confuse me with a B/A shipper - I'm not. I still
think Scott Hope was the best guy we ever saw Buffy with (of course
he's gay now). The age thing never bothered me, because Angel
didn't look his age, if he did it wouldn't have happened anyhow.
its what we are shown that makes the greatest impression. I've
wanted Buffy to move on since Tabula Rasa, hopefully she'll find
someone who treats her well so she can bake cookies for a long
time.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> ::pointing out that Buffy herself has been seen eating
raw cookie dough:: -- milkchocolatechip, 12:38:16 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Feel the opposite -- Rina-, 08:23:19 07/15/03
Tue
Or maybe Buffy can find someone she can treat well. Buffy wasn't
the only victim in Season 6, as some people seem to believe.
[> [> [> [> I agree
with your psychological point -- Sophist, 12:53:00 07/14/03
Mon
I think you've accurately described the psychology of the situation.
But it disturbs me for the same reason that the death penalty
generally does. It's why I find it so troubling that ME never
really addressed Willow's behavior in torturing and murdering
Warren.
[> Re: Some victims less
important? -- btvsk8, 13:23:47 07/14/03 Mon
With regards to suitability as romantic partners- Whether Buffy
and Spike get together in a relationship that is portrayed as
positive has greater importance than Drucilla and Angelus getting
it on because of their souled/unsouled status and the fact that
we are encouraged to identify with spike (in some ways) and with
Buffy to a large degree
[> Context and topicality
are not inconsequential -- Random, 14:26:16 07/14/03 Mon
We're not watching a show about Angelus' and Spike's behaviour
in the distant past. We see Angelus as a monster in Victorian
England, but the Angel we meet has paid a terrible price for Angelus'
crimes. Spike, on the other hand, is being witnessed commiting
his crimes in the topical context. If Angelus were still around
-- if he still stalked the city instead of being trapped by Angel's
soul -- he would evoke much stronger reaction. But we're watching
Angel-with-a-soul's story, not Angelus'. Even the S2 Angelus arc
was more about Buffy and Angel. Spike, on the other hand, was
still soulless, and thus we are forced to confront all his actions
in that light. It's not a question of trivializing Drusilla's
torment, but of how harshly we must deal with the souled Angel
for the acts of the unsouled Angelus. From what we saw, Angelus
was far more a monster than Spike could ever have aspired to be.
Had S2 Angelus and Buffy ended up as lovers, I rather think I
might have stopped watching in disgust unless ME did something
miraculous with the script.
With Spike, much of the interest has revolved around the S6 relationship,
not the S7 one. We can't fastforward to S7 and say that "Seeing
Red" was not as terrible as Angelus' treatment of Dru. It
wasn't, I believe that. But contentious questions about whether
we're being deliberately blind toward one in favor of the other
completely miss the point, IMO. We're examining the here and now.
We can acknowledge that Angelus' treatment of Dru was horrendous
without banging the current souled Angel over the head for it.
We cannot acknowledge that Spike's treatment of Buffy was horrendous
without examining it in the context of the then-current Spike.
When one talks about the B/S romantic relationship, one is generally
talking about S6...S7 was distinctly lacking in anything except
a platonic friendship, at least from what I saw. To condemn Spike's
crime without similarly condemning Angelus' one is not an act
of willful blindness. It is an act of acknowledging that the here-and-now
Spike (as of S6, which is really what we're talking about, since
we're only analysing an episode from then, not the character as
he ended up being)is the one we saw onscreen. The here-and-now
Angel isn't. If we continue to blame the S7 Spike -- which few
people, with a couple notable exceptions -- do, then we are guilty
of a hypocrisy unless we include Angel's victims.
More importantly, there is one other issue -- we're not talking
just about Angel and Spike. We're talking about their victims.
Dru is mad, and we must accept her relationship with Angelus.
What causes the firestorm about Buffy is the fact that she makes
rational (or irrational, as the case may be) decisions. Should
she end up with Spike? If one looks to S6 Spike to make that decision,
one has to look to unsouled Angelus when evaluating Seasons
1-3. Anything else would be hypocritical. I personally believe
that blaming a souled vamp for the crimes of his/her unsouled
counterpart misses several very large points.
~Random, the Clemdrew shipper
[> Because I don't see the
Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Earl
Allison, 09:45:39 07/15/03 Tue
You are technically correct, Angelus is as bad as, if not worse,
than Spike pre-soul.
I guess that to me, the biggest difference is the way ME presented
Angel versus Angelus, and the (IMHO) startling LACK of real difference
between Spike pre- and post-soul.
Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless,
remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either
to make them more morally complex, or to cater to favored characters
(depending on your views), and suddenly we were seeing vampires
like Harmony, who were quite a lot like their previous selves.
I can forgive Angel for Angelus because he is sorry. We see it
a lot of the time in what he says and does. He feels enough guilt
over what he did to Drusilla to offer her a chance to walk away
from Sunnydale (a mistake, I think it would have been more kind
to stake the monster she became).
Spike? Spike continued to wear the kill-trophy of a pre-soul victim,
showed (to me) almost no empathy for anyone other than Buffy or
those close to her, and seemed remarkably unconcerned over those
he had killed (aside from one or two episodes, which do not penance
make, IMHO). I've seen Angel act to save people he has no connection
to at all -- I've yet to really see it with Spike; it's all about
Buffy or those close to her (that I can recall).
Add to that the fact that, largely, Spike through S6 was still
the soulless vampire. Somehow, I am asked by ME to find Spike
better in S6 than he was in S2 -- and then we have the attempted
rape. Me tried to have its cake and eat it too, to claim that
Spike was different, somehow better even without the soul than
any other vampire, and yet he assaulted Buffy. I don't really
care what the circumstances were, I can find NO reason to excuse
Spike's actions then, or now.
Worse, ME continues to shoot itself in the foot by talking about
how and why Spike did what he did. Fury claims that Spike had
a little bit of soul, that he was somehow special among vampires
-- of course, if I REALLY believe that, his actions prior to falling
for Buffy become all the MORE horrible. Spike, who was different,
CHOSE to embrace the evil and murder of the past century or so.
Angelus is simply what he is through basic nature, but Spike (if
I am to accept the "special" argument) didn't, he made
a choice.
ME made a very clear distinction between Angel and Angelus, but
never the same thing with Spike. He continued to call himself
Spike, act a great deal like he did pre-soul, dress exactly as
he did (and the coat is a MAJOR issue to me), and largely call
attention to how much he was STILL like he was earlier.
I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that he is
NOT Angelus. More, he generally (until this most recent season
of Angel) didn't claim that Angelus was totally different, but
that he was always inside, a part of the whole. Spike generally
didn't behave that way, and to be totally honest, if we the viewers
had never been told he had a soul -- would it be obvious to you?
It wouldn't to me -- although Buffy couldn't parrot "but
he has a soouuulll now" over and over, so S7 would only be
two episodes long :)
Maybe ME was trying to say that having a soul guarantees nothing,
that it doesn't change us all, but they picked a poor choice to
show it with, IMHO.
The weirdest part? I'm not much of an Angel fan. I just think
the two were handled differently, and for consistency, Angel was
handled better, IMHO.
Take it and run.
[> [> It can't be bargained
with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity or remorse
or fear.... -- Sophist, 10:48:58 07/15/03 Tue
ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless,
remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either
to make them more morally complex
I think this progression is pretty much inevitable. Without it,
you get truly one dimensional characters like the original Terminator.
That was so limiting they couldn't even carry it through 2 movies
-- they had to give him something different in T2. For a long-running
TV show, it would be hard to sustain the sameness over many years.
What I find interesting is that ME approached this with small
steps. They gave Xander these characteristics for one episode
(The Pack). Then they gave them to Oz permanently, but only 3
days out of the month. Then we see that Whistler, a demon, can
act for the forces of good. And so on until vampires become more
complex.
Really, would you rather have a show in which the vamps all behaved
like Turok-han, or one in which there could be a Holden Webster?
I've gotta say, the latter seems much better to me.
[> [> [> Re: It can't
be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel
pity or remorse or fear. -- Earl
Allison, 11:16:46 07/15/03 Tue
Sophist,
A great statement, but it didn't really answer what I put forth.
Did ME have to go that route? Maybe, maybe not. Please don't assume
I wanted Turok-Han over Holden. I didn't change the rules mid-stream,
ME did. And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters
or major supporting ones (which ties neatly into the thread about
certain deaths counting more than others).
The original question was, why is Spike more accountable than
Angel.
I only posted the reasons as I saw them, please don't hold me
accountable for ME's story choices and method of execution.
I stand by the rationale; Angel and Angelus had very distinct
differences, Spike, as I saw him, did not. Inevitable or not,
I didn't invent the (IMHO) glaring inconsistencies OR the "Spike
is special" argument, ME did. And since they decided not
to actually address anything of substance, it falls to fans to
theorize and put forth ideas.
Add to that the issue of many fans (and the writers) wanting to
give Spike credit for his actions between S4 and S6, and you should
also accept the negatives for the bad things he did as well, or
you assume that the slate is clean -- ENTIRELY. That means no
positives or negatives -- no one seems to put that forth as an
option, though.
I should have known better than to post on this topic, I really
should (and I don't bear you ill will at all, Sophist, I should
just avoid Spike entirely).
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> And
here I tried so hard to avoid mentioning S**** :) -- Sophist,
12:59:30 07/15/03 Tue
I was deliberately shifting the topic away from a certain vamp
to a related issue. I know we'll never agree about the merits
of bleaching one's hair.
Continuing on that theme:
And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters
or major supporting ones
That's what I would expect. Weekly disposable villains can be
one-dimensional. Continuing characters cannot. Anneth's example
of Harmony is a good one; so is Dru. For lack of a better word,
they have personalities superimposed onto the face of a soulless
killer. Of course, once you give a character real personality,
you face exactly the situation you described. The difference between
us is, I don't regret that choice, I see it as enriching the show.
YMMV.
[> [> agree with Sophist;
also, -- Anneth, 11:04:03 07/15/03 Tue
Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were
soulless, remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change
things, either to make them more morally complex, or to cater
to favored characters (depending on your views), and suddenly
we were seeing vampires like Harmony, who were quite a lot like
their previous selves.
I don't think ME ever veered from the premise that vampires are
soulless, remorseless killers. The "more like previous selves"
change is not so much a sea-change from the original idea than
an evolution of it - Harmony is a soulless, remorseless killer
version of Harmony the Cordette. Just adds a little complexity
to the mix; without which, as Sophist mentioned, vampires would
become pretty dull adversaries.
[> [> Re: Because I don't
see the Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Rina,
11:25:02 07/15/03 Tue
"I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that
he is NOT Angelus."
I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, Angeleus is a part of Angel.
Spike had the good sense to finally realize that he has both light
and darkness within. As long as Angel continues to see the two
sides of his nature as separate entities, he will never be at
peace. He will never grow.
grrrrr argh!
Where did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread
go? -- WickedBuffy ... it is VERY active!, 11:01:34 07/14/03
Mon
I thought post were automatically archived by some machine thingy
according to activity?
[> Who can understand Voynak's
appetite? see thread above -- curious, 11:12:03 07/14/03
Mon
Maybe it is just as well to start a new thread. That one was getting
pretty ragged.
[> Re: grrrrr argh! Where
did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread go?
-- btvsk8, 13:14:59 07/14/03 Mon
Phew! was so relieved people responded to it in the first place.
I feared it would sit there all rejected. Only prob is, the original
question remains unanswered- what of our celibate heroine and
the message that sends? I was more concerned with that than spike's
soul issues. I liked the point that someone made about the cookie
speech. I guess that does excuse her lack of sex to a certain
extent...
[> [> Why does cookie
dough = celibate? -- Masq, 14:08:42 07/14/03 Mon
Who assumes Buffy meant she had to be celibate? The cookie dough
speech simply meant she wasn't going to be looking for a long-term
relationship until she was ready for one.
People have sex outside of long term relationships all the time.
I say more power to Buffy to not feel the need to throw herself
into relationships before she's ready and to satisfy her sexual
needs anyway she wants to.
[> [> [> Rock on,
Masq! Abso-friggin'-lootley! ;o) -- Rob, 14:17:30 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> And, finally...
-- KdS, 16:07:54 07/14/03 Mon
After Faith/Wood and Gunn/Gwen, (and also possibly Willow/Kennedy,
depending on long you see them lasting), sex outside lifelong
commitment is no longer an Official MEverse Bad Thing.
[> [> [> [> Gunn/Gwen
is the best example here -- Masq, 16:32:51 07/14/03 Mon
If you assume ME won't pursue that relationship next year.
I think they implied in "Chosen" that Faith and Wood
might pursue a relationship. And certainly I think, regardless
of how long it actually lasts, Willow and Kennedy perceive
themselves to be in a steady relationship. So I don't count W/K
sex as "sex outside of a long-term relationship".
But if by this you mean that characters no longer get automatically
punished for having sex outside of long-term relationships, this
is still a bit fuzzy in the Buffyverse, since most of the characters
we've seen in both BtVS and AtS have had sex in the context of
committed relationships, either real or perceived.
There are a few examples of sex outside of committed relationships.
Buffy and Parker come to mind. Xander/Faith is another example,
and I'd argue that both Buffy and Xander did get "punished"
for these sexual liasons in a sense. In those two cases, though,
Buffy and Xander got "punished" by their sexual partners
for being presumptuous after the even took place. Buffy percieved
herself as being on the cusp of such a relationship with Parker,
and he didn't. Xander assumed he had a connection with Faith that
Faith didn't.
[> [> [> [> Re:
And, finally... -- btvsk8, 17:29:23 07/14/03 Mon
Just to repeat myself- your arguments would work if buffy was
actually having sex despite not being ready to find "the
one". but she isn't. which is why the cookie dough speech
does not in fact excuse (the writers) in buffy's lack of a sex-life,
because, as you rightly point out she can still be cookie dough
and have sex. but she doesn't because her only prospective sexual
partner is Spike- attempted rapist. hence my original point that
the writers did not consider the long-term implications of Seeing
Red.
Hope that makes some kind of sense!
[> [> [> [> [>
For whatever it's worth, Buffy was also celibate in S1 and
S3. -- Sophist, 20:08:20 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Why does
cookie dough = celibate? -- btvsk8, 17:20:55 07/14/03 Mon
I didn't mean that her cookie dough speech was her declaring her
wish to be celibate. The fact of her not having sex for over a
year (probably not "satisfying her sexual needs") was
where I got that from. Not that there is anything wrong with not
having sex, its just that I feel that Joss, as a feminist would
have prefered to go against the tradition and have his heroine
in a healthy sexual relationship (cough-but couldn't because of
the "AR"-cough). What I do think is that her cookie
dough speech could be the solution to this issue... but i'm still
not convinced
[> [> [> [> Re:
Why does cookie dough = celibate? -- Yellow Bear, 22:30:10
07/14/03 Mon
The contention that the AR in 'Seeing Red'prevented ME from creating
a sexaul realtionship with Buffy & Spike in S7 is probably accurate
but the belief that they could not see this consquence coming
seems hollow. Clearly, the AR was going to be deeply traumatic
and any sexual relationship thereafter would be difficult. I find
it very hard to believe that ME did not go into the AR with eyes
wide open about what directions this would take the story in S7.
[> [> [> Maybe celibacy
will be part of her decision. -- WickedBuffy, 08:18:02
07/15/03 Tue
I thought it just meant Buffy wouldn't attempt anymore serious
relationships (like Riley, Angel, maybe Spike) until she was ready.
Which was a great piece of self-realization for Buffy.
If she was frigid or had some type of sexual problems, then I
would have gone with the cookie dough speech meaning celibacy.
But she appeared to be ok in that area.
Her problem was in relationships. But these posts about celibacy
and her frequency of sex is something I hadn't even considered.
I still feel it wasn't specifically about celibacy, it was more
about relationship, but now can see how celibacy might possibly
be part of how she helps bake her cookie dough to completeness.
Thanks for pointing out a whole different way to look at it.
Hanging From
a Star: 'Winter's Tale' and the Dream of a City (Book Melee)
-- Rob, 12:19:40 07/14/03 Mon
Mark Helprin's Winter's Tale is my very favorite book.
It has played a particularly significant role in my life, for,
while I had always adored reading (throughout my childhood, I
was best known as the kid on the playground during recess more
likely to be sitting on a bench, reading The Hobbit or
A Wrinkle in Time than throwing a dumb ball around with
my friends), Winter's Tale is the book that made me want
to be a writer. I first read it when I was 12 years old,
at an age I now admit was perhaps a bit too young to fully grasp
all of the nuances and complexities of this rich and cavernous
novel. Or perhaps not. What first truly swept me away into the
kaleidoscopic, mystifying world of the novel were the words. The
back cover of my edition quotes a book review from Newsday, proclaiming
the novel "a gifted writer's love affair with the language."
I could not describe it better myself. Here's one of my favorite
passages:
The upper Hudson was as different from New York and its expansive
baylands as China was different from Italy, and it would have
taken a Marco Polo to introduce one to the other. If the Hudson
were likened to a serpent, then the city was the head, in which
was found the senses, expressions, brain, and fangs. The upper
river was milder, stronger, the muscular neck and smoothly elongated
body. There was no rattle to this snake. Albany sometimes tried
to rattle, but failed to emit an audible sound.
I wish to God I could write that mellifluously. Not only does
the prose poetically flow in a manner extremely soothing to the
ear in meter and tone, but the metaphors are strong, carried through
in surprising ways, and are even quite funny. This book proves
that one does not need to simplify or dumb down one's writing
in order to be clever and engaging. This is what saves the book
from, what in the hands of a less gifted writer, might have sunken
into pretension. Helprin's sense of humor and heart save it. Upon
first reading the book, I was struck by just how big Helprin's
heart seems to be. There is a rich love of life, writing, New
York, and love in this book that one cannot counterfeit; there
is also a palpable sense of literal and metaphorical flight in
the prose. Reading the prologue and epilogue to the novel, the
reader feels as if he or she is literally descending (and later
ascending) on the back of the flying, white horse, Athansor, to
take in all that life has to offer before us.
One of the book's strongest points lies in its imagery. Even long
after all of the mechanics of the plot had escaped me, years after
reading it for the first time, many images of the novel left indelible
marks on me. For example, the scene of the young girl, standing
alone outside her father's hotel and watching a white horse attempting
to (and finally succeeding in) gliding over the water; the murderous,
villainous (and ironically named) Pearly Soames, whose love of
cutting throats and robbing banks is eclipsed only by his remarkable
love of color; the thick cloud wall drifting over the Hudson that
eclipses both time and memory; the stack of girlie magazines hidden
under a young boy's bed, which literally sear a hole in the floor
beneath them and fall onto the lap of the boy's unsuspecting father,
due to the boy's Tell-Tale Heart levels of guilt alone; the two
Pyramus and Thisbe-like lovers separated by a wall throughout
the long winter; the dying girl, lying in her small tent above
the city, communing with the stars; the winter village that exists
outside of all boundaries of time and forward movement, hard to
leave and even harder still to find; the bridge whose roadway
is made of nothing but pure light; and above all, the image of
a thief stumbling across the (nude) owner of the house he is robbing
and falling instantly in love with her, and even more significantly,
having this love be instantaneously reciprocal.
No mistake about it, this story is a fairy tale. Despite its ostensibly
realistic setting, the book courses with magic, from the flying
horse to Peter Lake's later abilities of telekinesis, and perhaps
most remarkable, the magic of first love. At the age of 12, and
even now, I find it just delightful how easily characters fall
and stay in love in this book, and most importantly, the fact
that it does not come across as coincidence or foolhardiness.
Whenever two people who are right for each other meet in this
book, it is like a meeting of two minds, two souls that were created
for each other; fate deemed that one day they would meet, and
in each case they finally do: Peter Lake and Beverly; Hardesty
and Virginia; Asbury and Christiana; (the most unlikely pairing
of) Craig Binky and Sarah Gamely. And why does this happen? The
answer, I believe lies in this passage:
Their throats tightened, and they shuddered the way one does
when one discovers or reconfirms higher and purposeful forces
brazenly and unconvincingly masquerading as coincidence.
By denying the existence of coincidence, Helprin strips bare the
fabric of the universe and reveals that, yes, everything is connected.
A dying child in an abandoned tenement can finally be saved nearly
a hundred years later; a shiny salver given to a young man by
his dying father can help bring about the demise and Phoenix-like
resurrection of an entire city; an out-of-place figure in a photograph
or painting from the 1900s can stumble down the street across
from you, having not aged a single day. Helprin's novel is Dickensian
in sprawl and characterization, but it convinces in its coincidences
where Dickens sometimes fails by completely disqualifying the
notion. For example, the revelation of Magpie's connection to
Estella in Great Expectations might have come across as
far less far-fetched had Dickens metanarratively commented on
coincidence in the novel as Helprin has done. By admitting and
reveling in the fact that these situations are unlikely at best,
Helprin allows for a more natural suspension of disbelief.
Winter's Tale is dense not only with imagery and otherworldly
forces but symbolism and allusion. I don't find it merely a coincidence
(sorry for the sledgehammer!) that Beverly, Peter Lake's one true
love and the woman who has inspired him throughout his life to
eventually reach the pinnacle of his existence of bringing a young
girl back from the dead, shares in common the first two letters
of the name of Dante's muse, Beatrice. This was nearly confirmed
for me when he sees her appear to him, glowing and white, in the
cellar, the night before the Short Tails drive Peter Lake into
the cloud wall, and I have no doubt as to whose hand was guiding
him on his tour through all the graves of the (under)world. I
also don't find his name, Peter Lake, merely coincidental, with
Biblical references to St. Peter not only in the name's association
with the lake, but in St. Peter's status as the maitre d' at the
gates of heaven. The circumstances of his childhood also, of course,
draw echoes to Moses, and his burgeoning abilities in the final
third of the novel call a certain Nazarene to mind. Unlike Jesus,
however, he is not a carpenter who creates new things out of assemblages
of wood, but is a mechanic, fixing, repairing, and patching up
problems that have already occurred in large, metallic structures.
His revelation that he has the ability to control other people's
motions telekinetically is as similarly methodical and logical
as his uncanny ability to break down a large piece of machinery
into its basest elements, then reassemble it again. A kindred
spirit, Hardesty, is the only other character with such a singular
ability: his seemingly miraculous one-shot win at a pool table
foreshadows and complements Peter Lake. Significantly, it is Hardesty's
daughter whom Peter Lake brings back to life, and it is Hardesty
who begins to bring Peter Lake closest to discovering his true
identity.
The tone of the book also suits its fairy-tale like setting. There
is a deliberate quaintness and out-of-time-ness to the prose that
cannot be explained merely by the fact that, having been written
in 1983 (when I was three years old), Helprin could not have foreseen
such everyday, prevalent parts of our modern early 21st century
society such as cell phones and the Internet. The New York City
that Helprin creates does not exist in any time but its own, to
the point that even the sections that I know are meant to occur
in the late 1990s seem to me, while reading, to have occurred
in the far past. Hardesty's cross-country journey seems as if
it would be more at home in the 1920s or 1930s, as does the descriptions
of The Sun and The Ghost (another Biblical allusion).
And yet, still, remarkably, Helprin nails New York City. He could
not have known what the end of the millennium would bring, and
so he creates an alternate New York City, that is in some ways
idealized (in what but an ideal world would Praeger de Pinto actually
win the Mayoral election for New York City?) and yet at the same
time harshly accurate. He describes the city as a monster that
could devour the unsuspecting person up whole, and he is right;
he also describes the city as a glowing superlative of justice
and beauty, and he is right. Who else but a lover and connoisseur
of New York City would be able to so accurately predict the complete
rebirth that could occur after a major, apocalyptic crisis? While
the city did not completely set ablaze on the eve of the millennium,
as Helprin predicts, the aftermath of the catastrophic events
of September 11th, 2001 is uncannily alive in Helprin's words:
'I'll tell you why, Governor,' Praeger returned, his words
rising all over the place. 'The city's not going to burn forever.
We're going to rebuild it. By summer, you'll see, it will become
something that you've never dreamed of. Do you know what else?
If this fire stops at night, we'll begin to rebuild on the next
morning. If it stops in the morning, we'll begin to rebuild in
the afternoon. When that happens, I want all the arsonists to
be dead, and I want anyone who even entertains the idea of lighting
a match to be able to remember what happened to the people who
started the fire.'
'I'll believe what you said about rebuilding,' the governor said,
'when I see it.'
'You'll see it. We're the quickest rebuilders in the world-we
don't talk as fast as we do for nothing. As much as the fire takes
from us, we'll take from it. We'll pretend it's a tourist.'
This passage is indescribably brilliant, not only in its hilarious
punchline, but in the absolute truth behind every statement. Uncannily,
every part of Helprin's passage occurred to the letter, including
the attitude regarding the "arsonists." The last line,
of course, is wrapped in good ol' New Yawk city resolve and ballsiness.
Prager admits that the city is a bastard, but a beautiful creation,
too.
On a brief aside, my two favorite sections of the book are the
entire first part, which reads like a self-contained novella,
with a heartbreaking love story that never fails to spill a few
tears from my eyes, and the tragicomic story of Hardesty's journey
to New York City, including his hilariously frustrating time spent
with the unfortunately named, mountain-climbing dwarf, Jesse Honey.
In the movie of the book that plays in my head, Jesse is played
by Danny DeVito. His calm assuredness that he is the smartest,
most athletic, and most capable man in the world, despite his
diminutive side, missing appendages, and complete inability to
bring any plan to successful completion all screaming that he
is not any of the above, is not only oddly inspiring but outrageously
comical. Yes, I imagine a Romancing the Stone-era DeVito in the
role.
In my mind, Winter's Tale is one of those all-encompassing
texts in which one can find everything: the meaning of life, 42,
and all that jazz. I see it as not one novel but a multitude of
novellas, short stories, and asides all commenting on the central
themes of justice, love, death and rebirth, swirling all the characters
in a non-linear kaleidoscopic whirlwind that takes them all spinning
in unforeseen directions and turns. I admire how Helprin was able
to capture New York City, as a living, breathing, moving character
better than in any novel I have ever read; I admire how he is
able to completely captivate me with his perfect command of the
English language and deeply clever turns-of-phrase; I love him
for crafting what is to me the perfect book.
Rob
[> Shameless self-preservation.
-- Rob, 12:52:18 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> Okay, one more
for now. Voynak is glaring at me. -- Rob, 13:19:37 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> 'And I am
all alone,/ There's nobody here beside me...' -- Rob, whose
gotta have friends ;o), 14:20:56 07/14/03 Mon
[> Lovely! -- ponygirl,
14:35:45 07/14/03 Mon
Ok, let me get this out of the way. I still haven't finished reading
the book. I will, I will, and I think Rob's essay helps. I wish
I'd had taken the approach of seeing the book a series of inter-connected
novellas from the start, I kept looking for the connections to
previous sections rather than letting them just come upon me.
I do think this is one of those books where you just have to surrender
to it. It had the quality of a dream, I just had to let myself
drift along with the narrative.
One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed to be
speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have been nice
if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself like a poet
every time he spoke.
I also wonder if the character of Asbury was a shoutout to Herbert
Asbury, author of the Gangs of New York, whose influence could
certainly be felt in the earlier sections about Five Points and
Pearly's gang.
Hopefully I'll have more later, but great essay Rob!
[> [> Re: the dialogue
-- Rob, 14:57:12 07/14/03 Mon
"One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed
to be speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have
been nice if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself
like a poet every time he spoke."
That's certainly a valid criticism, although I usually just surrender
myself to the whole world of the novel so end up not finding the
highly poetic dialogue distracting. From an interview Helprin
gave (and sorry, I don't think I'd have any way to find, because
I don't remember when or where I read it), he said that in this
book, he wanted to create a perfect world, and in his perfect
world, everyone, from the pettiest criminal to the millionaire,
would use the English language as an art form every time they
spoke, thus the emphasis on Mrs. Gamely's unique, labyrinthine
speech, and his humorous aside that the book reviewers are like
gods. He himself said he realized that this would never be, but
in his dream world, people would talk like this. And Winter's
Tale was certainly his dreamworld, so that explains that.
So, at the very least, this explains why everyone spoke like this.
Whether ya like it or not is of course a separate issue, but at
least it's good to know that the formalized dialogue was deliberate.
And yes, this was complete paraphrasing, and I have no way to
back it up!
And thank you for complimenting my essay. :o)
Rob
[> Building a preservation
bridge -- fresne, 15:06:17 07/14/03 Mon
Can't talk.
Working.
Routers. Switches. Bridges.
Bridges in space. Bridges in time. Slender massive columns and
graceful cabled lengths to tether floating lands together.
New York to San Francisco. Clouds to sky.
Thinking as I read of the family vignette in which my father,
a little boy at the time, and his parents drove to S.F. in their
model T to go cross the newly minted Golden Gate bridge. Camped
out in S.F. and then crossed when the bridge opened in the morning.
Of High Steel workers, walking the sky.
So, what parallels, if any with Shakespeare's Winter's Tale?
Exeunt fresne, pursued by a deadline.
[> [> And see that, fresne?
-- Rob, 09:20:32 07/17/03 Thu
I managed to slip in a Dante reference! Go, Inferno! ;o)
Rob
[> Let me tell you something,
Robert William... -- Sara, with her hands on her hips, 19:45:12
07/14/03 Mon
You are a writer.
I may feel a little lukewarm on the book, but I loved your
essay, it was both a lovely piece of writing, and an excellent
analysis. Even though I do not have your high regard for this
novel, there isn't anything that you've said that isn't spot on
right. I'm afraid that I'm just not into mellifluous writing -
I like a more direct and concise style. But although not my piece
of cake (which won't stop me from finishing it sometime this decade)
it is clearly as beautifully written as you say. What can I say,
as soon as someone describes a book as lyrical I'm out
of there!
Somehow the fantasy never quite drew me in, although the imagery
is really, very strong. Helprin certainly creates a New York that
is both true to the city that is and was, and yet is also otherworldly.
I did love the way Beverly's fevers were described where I could
feel the burning eyes and the hot skin. And the cold air had that
crispness to it that we feel in a really wonderful winter day.
I'm still in the second part, where Virginia has just reached
the city - so much more for me to go. I did love the description
of the oh-so harsh winter, and the precarious coziness of Mrs.
Gamely's home. The winter carnival period felt like what I always
want a winter to be, but never really is.
So, yes, this is a work of tremendous imagination, and beauty
- if you like that kind of thing...Actually, I think my biggest
problem, is that I don't find Peter Lake all that interesting,
and I did find the Baymen to be somewhat contrived - but I'm willing
to keep the jury out on the last thought. I wouldn't be surprised
if the Baymen subplot comes together for me in the end, but I'm
not convinced yet.
My final thoughts are, even if I don't love the book, it was worth
reading to be able to appreciate your essay!
- Sara, still turning the pages (when not in chat...)
[> [> Honestly, I am
*so* touched and greatly humbled, Sara. Thank you so much. :o)
-- Rob, 23:39:16 07/14/03 Mon
[> Lovely...I haven't read
this one for time and monetary reasons -- s'kat (doing her
part to preserve thread!), 22:20:34 07/14/03 Mon
but