June 2002 posts
I typed out 2 articles from Entertainment Weekly --
Rufus, 04:47:41 06/01/02 Sat
You can see them
here
and here.
ConverseBuffyverse
This site
will be where I post all the articles and spoilers and Wildfeeds for now on. The Trollup Board is being
closed in favor of the Yahoo Group. There is also a Voy board that is linked to that board for times when
Yahoo is down to ensure the Wildfeeds will still get out when the new season starts. It's the same Trollup
Board under a new name...enjoy.
[> Re: I typed out 2 articles from Entertainment Weekly (Spoilers to
Grave) -- shadowkat, 08:04:26 06/01/02 Sat
Thanks for this.
I agreed
with your comments on Tara and Willow. Why are the censors still so phobic? It reminds me of the
teenager who posted after SR, who says her parents couldn't deal with her watching two women naked in
bed together, so she couldn't watch it. (Now I could understand not letting her watch it for the AR scene
or the gunshots or even Villains for the violence, but for two women in bed?) Homophobia has never made
any sense to me. It's a shame that the networks still bow down to it.
Also agreed with your
take on smoking. I bet Marsters hopes that Spike stops after he gets a soul, considering he wears a patch
and has been smoking horrible herbal cigs on the show.If you notice - he actually smoked a lot less this
year. I think I saw him light up in maybe three episodes? When he was with Buffy - he rarely did it at all.
Alsowhen Angel lost his soul - the first thing he did was smoke. When he regained it - we never saw him
smoke. So my guess, Spike probably won't be smoking next year. LOL!
[> [> Re: I typed out 2 articles from Entertainment Weekly
(Spoilers to Grave) -- aurelia, 12:48:33 06/01/02 Sat
Good to know that MN said
Iconic and not Ironic, like I saw copied somewhere else, it makes so much more sense. Thanks so much
for typing those out.
[> [> Re: I typed out 2 articles from Entertainment Weekly
(Spoilers to Grave) -- Q, 18:18:23 06/01/02 Sat
Notice how the last thing Spike
did before going to Africa to get the soul was throw down the cigarette? More smoking=evil imagery, eh?
Well, maybe not evil. Usually when characters smoke on the show there are 3
variables...
They will soon be evil (Angelous, etc)
They will soon be dead (The counselor
at the high school,etc.)
They will soon be beaten to a bloody pulp (nightmares)
[> Re: Hey, Rufus, Thanks for all the hard work -- Brian,
11:33:47 06/01/02 Sat
[> Thanks for the articles and the links! -- Wynn, 20:53:04
06/01/02 Sat
Upon reading the shooting script... -- Kerri,
09:15:07 06/01/02 Sat
Just something i thought was intersting:
OnM
wrote about Buffy's line saying "the world I've chosen to protect."
Thought it was
interesting that it was originally:
"the world I'm chosen to protect"
Huge
difference. Now i have to go back and watch and make sure she really did say I'vr.
[> Re: I've vs. I'm -- wiscoboy, 12:21:35 06/01/02 Sat
You could say either version is correct. In the beginning she WAS CHOSEN, but since her 1st
death and the rising of subsequent slayers(Faith still being alive), she in fact HAS CHOSEN to continue
her mission. She may not have come to that realization until now, but if she has, that could account for
some of her newfound attitude at S6's end.
[> Re: Upon reading the shooting script... -- Sophist,
13:51:40 06/01/02 Sat
Also interesting was that the shooting script provided no
evidence that (a) Xander was there to hear Anya tell Buffy that no supernatural power could stop Willow,
or (b) Xander understood what was necessary and that he could provide it.
[> [> Re: Xander -- wiscoboy, 15:02:53 06/01/02 Sat
But wasn't that the point? Xander went to Willow on his own initiative, with no other
knowledge or thought than try to help his lifelong best friend. All he knew was where she would be.
[> [> [> Hmmm.` -- Sophist, 16:56:12 06/01/02
Sat
If he wasn't there to hear Anya talk to Buffy and Dawn, he had no way to know where
Willow was.
[> [> [> [> skewed logic (SPOILERS for finale) --
Robert, 22:51:18 06/01/02 Sat
>> "... the shooting script provided no evidence
that (a) Xander was there to hear Anya tell Buffy that no supernatural power could stop Willow
..."
and
>> "If he wasn't there to hear Anya talk to Buffy and Dawn, he had
no way to know where Willow was."
There something wrong with your logic. Let me
state my understanding of your arguement. Please let me know if I misunderstood you, for which I
apologize in advance.
You are arguing that in order for Xander to find Willow, he must have
overheard Anya telling Buffy where Willow was. But, since there is no corroborating evidence in the
shooting script to support the hypothesis that Xander overheard Anya telling Buffy where Willow was,
Xander could not have known where Willow was. Presumably then, Xander could not have stopped
Willow from destroying the world.
If this is your argument, then it is absurd. Xander must
have learned Willow's whereabouts from somewhere. The script makes no claim otherwise. The only
reasonable source of this information was by overhearing Anya. The fact that Xander was out of sight
does not mean that he was out of hearing. The lack of corroborating evidence does not prevent the writer
(and the viewership) from assuming that Xander did, in fact, overhear the conversation.
The
writers for most TV shows would explicitly have shown Xander overhearing Anya and Buffy's
conversation, because they would not (or could not) trust the viewership to take the logical leap. The
Mutant Enemy writers have bestowed upon us a little more dignity.
If you are looking for
logical holes in the script, then I would like to direct your gaze to the script for "Two to Go". Buffy
couldn't find Rack's place herself in "Wrecked"; she needed Spike's assistance. We know that Dawn
found it with Clem's help in "Two to Go". How did Buffy find it?
[> [> [> [> [> Good point about Buffy and Rack. I
noticed that also. -- Sophist, 08:07:37 06/02/02 Sun
The reason I said that about
Xander is that onscreen, Buffy says to him "Xander go get a rope." He replies, "There must one
somewhere" and stands up. That's the last we see of him until he appears on the clifftop with Willow.
When I first watched it, color me thick if you want, I had no idea how Xander got there. I was
hoping the shooting script would give me some clue, and was interested that it didn't.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Am I going insane? --
Traveler, 10:43:01 06/02/02 Sun
Xander stands and looks around, but we never
actually see him leave the hole. Then, Anya comes and Buffy says, "Anya!?" Soon afterwards, we see a
brief cut to Xander above looking down at them. I've seen the episode three times and looked specifically
at this scene for any confirmation that Xander overheard them. Why has nobody else on this board noticed
it? Am I going insane or what?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're NOT going
insane -- AngelVSAngelus, 12:15:37 06/02/02 Sun
I've been wondering why no
one remembered that myself for, like, five posts now. Xander was SHOWN listening to them speak.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're NOT going
insane - saw it too -- shadowkat, 12:39:02 06/02/02 Sun
No, I saw it too -
Xander overheard Anya, they showed it.
Also it's implied in the shooting script.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Color me thick --
I missed it completely -- Sophist, 13:37:19 06/02/02 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wait just a
minute here. I am right about this. -- Sophist, 14:13:37 06/02/02 Sun
I just went
up and watched it again. The scene proceeds like this: Buffy and Dawn are trying to find a way out. Buffy
calls to Xander and then tells him to get rope. Xander agrees to. Anya then arrives and we get the
following dialogue (from Psyche):
ANYA
(startled)
Holy frijole!
BUFFY
Anya! What are you doing here?
Where's Giles?
ANYA
He's...
still at the magic shop.
DAWN
Giles? Giles is here?
(to Buffy)
You didn't tell
me that.
BUFFY
(to Anya)
Did he stop Willow?
ANYA
No. And
things just got a whole lot
worse.
At this point the camera does flash back up to Xander,
but that is the last time we see him before he appears on the cliff with Willow. There is no
evidence that he even heard that Willow was going to destroy the world and where she was. And Anya's
comments about how no supernatural force can stop her come much later, after lots more dialogue and an
intervening scene with Willow on the cliff.
Sorry, but I retract my admission to thick-
headedness. This time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Whoa, here's a theory: Methinks different versions were aired.. -- AngelVSAngelus, 14:42:41
06/02/02 Sun
because MY tape has him standing there AFTER she said those things.
That would be REALLY odd, if different versions were aired in different places.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Whoa, here's a theory: Methinks different versions were aired.. -- cujo, 16:08:24 06/02/02 Sun
what was differeny?
meant different!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
I swear there's no such scene in my version. We're not crazy, UPN is. -- Sophist, 17:08:20
06/02/02 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Wait just a minute here. I am right about this. -- LadyStarlight, 19:30:54 06/02/02 Sun
I just pulled out my tape and rewatched the scene in question. It matches up with yours,
Sophist. But I think there is time after Anya leaves, what with the Dawn dialogue, and before Buffy yells
for him again, for Xander to have heard the whole thing and taken off for Willow and the
temple.
I think that's how I figured things went at the time I was watching, anyways.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Giles' Magic -- Brian, 03:42:40 06/03/02 Mon
Gee, I thought that Giles was
using some magic so Xander could hear the conversation of Anya with Buffy, so that Xander would know
what to do about Willow.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You
are still incorrect. -- Robert, 12:59:16 06/04/02 Tue
>> "There is no
evidence that he even heard that Willow was going to destroy the world and where she
was."
This statement is inaccurate. The evidence, that he overheard Anya, is the fact
that he showed up at the bluff to stop Willow when he otherwise had no prior knowledge of Willow's
intent and location.
What you meant to write was that there was no additional corroborating
evidence. This might be true, depending upon which "version" of the show you saw. However, there is
also no evidence to the contrary. Therefore we, as intelligent people, can take the logical step and assume
that Xander was still within hearing distance of Anya.
Sophist, I re-watched my videotape
copy of the episode and I apparently saw the same scenes that you did. While I saw no scene of Xander
whilst Anya was revealing the relevant information, the last we saw of Xander (from the bottom of the
hole) did not show him getting up and leaving. So, I feel justified in concluding that he was still there or
close by, and that this was not a plot hole.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
The reason I assumed he left is that he indicated he was going to get a rope. -- Sophist, 15:30:30
06/04/02 Tue
This meant that there were 2 logical options: he stayed and heard Anya, or
he went to get a rope. I needed the extra scene in order to confirm that he stayed (it was a long time for
him to stay). When he did appear on the cliff, I might have remembered the other possibility, but in fact I
didn't.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The reason I assumed he left is that he indicated he was going to get a rope. -- Robert,
17:08:21 06/04/02 Tue
>> "... he indicated he was going to get a
rope."
He did not. Buffy called up to Xander and told him to go get a rope. Xander replied
that he would look around. My viewing of the scene was that he was uncomfortable with leaving Buffy
and Dawn alone.
>> "This meant that there were 2 logical options: he stayed and heard
Anya, or he went to get a rope."
These two options are mutually exclusive. They cannot both
be true. Either Xander went for a rope or he went to the bluff. Which is true? Since the next scene shows
Xander at the bluff, we know that he did not go for the rope. The lack of an explicit scene, showing
Xander listening to Anya telling Buffy that Willow was at the Bluff, does not add any validity to the
hypothesis that Xander left to fetch a rope.
>> " I needed the extra scene in order to
confirm that he stayed (it was a long time for him to stay)."
Why do you need an extra scene?
Logically, the hypothesis that he left for rope is unsupported. An extra scene is unnecessary and
redundant.
Why is it a long time for Xander to stay? He was clearly still there when Anya
arrived and began telling her tales of woe. If that wasn't interesting enough to hold him there, what would
be?
[> [> [> [> [> Possible explanation for your last question
(Spoilers for TTG/G) -- Exegy, 08:14:10 06/02/02 Sun
Buffy could have forced a
vampire or demon to lead her to Rack's. She's used this particular option before--she forced the vampire
Claw to lead her to Praying Mantis Lady once (Teacher's Pet). Although the show doesn't indicate how
Buffy actually gets to Rack's, I don't think it's a stretch to assume the above scenario.
I agree
with your take on the Xander overhearing bit. Just because the viewer doesn't see something happen
doesn't mean that the viewer cannot infer that it has happened (especially when the inference is the most
logical explanation).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Possible explanation for your
last question (Spoilers for TTG/G) -- redcat, 10:17:39 06/02/02 Sun
"Just
because the viewer doesn't see something happen doesn't mean that the viewer cannot infer that it has
happened (especially when the inference is the most logical explanation)."
I agree. So here's a
scenario for how Buffy got herself into Rack's in time to save Dawn from the uber-Willow....CLEM saved
the day!!! (Dubdub and I have already nominated him for the appropriate "It's Tuesday night and I
helped save Dawn" award; see thread below to vote.)
Anyway, here's how I see the stuff we
didn't get to see:
When Clem takes Dawn to Rack's, she goes into the inner room and leaves
him to wait in the outer room, clearly anxious about having given in to Dawn's request to take her there,
as well as being uncomfortable on his own account. What we don't see offscreen is that our dear floppy-
eared kitten-lover gets a burst of courage and common sense and, realizing that the teenager may well be
in serious trouble, goes to find Buffy. She is close by, just outside, looking for Rack's place because she
thinks Willow will be there looking for a magick juice-up. Clem finds her and escorts her into the
magician's den using his demon senses. Then, like any sensible demon, he gets the hell out of Dodge and
leaves the hero to her destiny.
Makes sense to me...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Possible explanation for
your last question (Spoilers for TTG/G) -- shadowkat, 12:44:36 06/02/02 Sun
Works for me as well...It also explains where Clem went, because we don't see him
again.
They only have 43 minutes to show us the story - so some things just have to be implied,
I like the fact that they give us credit for being bright enough to fill in the gaps.;-)
Really love
Clem - with Clem as a friend...Spike is definitely coming up in the world. Hoping for me Clem/Spike
talks next year.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yep, that's another possible
scenario ... (Spoilers) -- Exegy, 13:31:57 06/02/02 Sun
... and one I
like.
Of course, we have no confirmation that Clem helped Buffy find Rack's. But until we
have direct evidence to the contrary, the Clem scenario remains a valid explanation! I hope the writers
leave us open to interpret the scene however we want, if only for letting us run with all the delicious
options. Why not let the viewer connect some of the dots? There are lots of possibilities; why close them
all off?
How Buffy manages to get to Rack's will not affect the big picture, so why deny the
possibility that Clem helps her out? I think that scenario is cool, and it explains what happens to Clem
after he assists Dawn to Rack's (the viewer has to wonder anyway).
Thanks, redcat. Makes
sense to me, too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> here's another
scenario... -- Doriander, 14:28:57 06/02/02 Sun
Anya, our teleport-happy
vengeance demon. She's with Buffy in the Magic shop when it's implied that Buffy figured Willow might
be at Rack's. It's possible she helped Buffy find the place. I know she's not really much into the big bad
these days, but if Clem could sense it, surely she can too. Once they found the place, she could have just
easily teleported herself back to the shop in time for the consequent scenes with Xander.
I don't
mean to steal the limelight from Clem. Love Clem!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, when the
writers leave the situation open ... -- Exegy, 14:40:28 06/02/02 Sun
... you get all
these interesting possibilities!
Clem and Anya, yay!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I like all the
suggested scenarios. -- Robert, 13:04:01 06/04/02 Tue
[> Re: Upon reading the shooting script...(Spoilers on Grave) --
shadowkat, 16:13:08 06/01/02 Sat
Just went back to the shooting script and it's
implied Giles is listening to Willow and Buffy and possibly imparting information to Xander. (from
shooting script)
"GILES: She's alive. (looking at Anya) The magic she took from me, it did
what I hoped it would...
ANYA: (getting it) You dosed her. You knew she was going to take
your powers all along.
GILES: W-well, I knew there was a possibility. The gift I was given
bythe coven was the true essence of Magic. Which comes, in all it's purity, from the Earth itself. Willow's
magic came from a place of rage and power.
ANYA: Oh, and vengeance. Don't forget
vengeance.
GILES: How... could I? In any case, the magic she took from me tapped into the
spark of humanity she had left. Allowed her to feel again... Giving Xander the opportunity to reach her.
ANYA: (frowning) Xander?
GILES: Yes. It was he that got to her in time.
(looking at her) He saved us all."
For some reason - it seemed to me that Giles was in
communication with Xander and it was taxing him. Also right before Xander disappears - Anya shows up.
It's when buffy is screaming up at him to get a rope.
"BUFFY: (calling up) Xander, try to find
a rope or something and get us out of here.
XANDER: (looking around,unsure) Right. Okay.
I'll... take a look around. As he stands...
END INTERCUT.INT. PIT - CONTINUOUS -
DAWN BUFFY: (calling up) And hurry before--FLASH! ANYA apparates before her, accompanied by
the requisite SMOKE and MYSTICAL ENERGIES, which cause more earth to break off from the walls.
The coffin Buffy was trying to free becomes dislodged and crashes to the ground.
ANYA:
(startled) Holy frijole! "
We don't see Xander leave - so he could have stayed there long enough
to hear the explanation. I certainly thought it was implied that he did.
Or am I once again
filling in the gaps for ME??? ;-)
[> [> Re: Upon reading the shooting script...(Spoilers on
Grave) -- maddog, 16:59:55 06/01/02 Sat
Personally, I think you are...which isn't
to say we don't all do that on occasion...but for Xander to truly come through the way he did he had to be
there long enough to hear where Willow was and then take off...and I doubt he'd have help from Giles...it
would take away from the fact that he talked Willow down...reached that open part of her...and he did it
without prior knowledge...without coaxing...that's what truly makes it special.
[> [> I think you're filling the gaps. :) Nicely, though. --
Sophist, 17:00:58 06/01/02 Sat
If Giles were in communication with Xander, they
should have made that clear so we could properly credit Giles. I think Xander was supposed to get it on
his own, and they just failed to show us that he did.
[> [> [> Re: I think you're filling the gaps. :) Nicely,
though. -- shadowkat, 20:02:35 06/01/02 Sat
I agree - I also had troubles seeing
Xander get it on his own. Maybe part of the reason is that he was relegated to the background in so many
of the episodes this year, that we really didn't get much time inside his head? In fact some of his and
anya's scenes seemed like repeats. I certainly didn't sense that Xander had deep feelings for Willow this
year. All I really got from Xander this year was a lot of insecurity and fear about the wedding, which
granted built into the overall theme, but I needed to see that he cared about Willow more. Maybe if they'd
shown him helping her after Wrecked. Or gave us more scenes with them together this would have
worked don't know. I've been puzzeling over why I lost interest in his character...until SR, where he
actually started to say something interesting?
[> [> [> [> Xander and Anya were placesetters for most of
the season. -- cjl, 20:32:10 06/01/02 Sat
"All the Way": Xander finally
announces the engagement (great scene in a mediocre episode), and everything goes downhill from there.
Xander and Anya at the magic box doing research; Xander and Anya hint that something might be screwy
with Willow; Xander and Anya bicker and fret about the wedding. The musical was the only time X/A
did anything close to interesting. (Don't talk to me about the "Xander did it" ending. Don't want to go
there.)
The only other time we see Xander in action, he is in full butt-monkey mode in "Gone"
and "Doublemeat Palace." "Hell's Bells" starts his comeback arc (or rather, his disintegration arc), but
that's six episodes from the end. He's still sliding until "Grave"; maybe the redemption scene with Willow
doesn't work because the Xander we KNOW is in there hasn't shown up for the entire season? Maybe if
they included a few X/W "I love you the best" scenes while Willow was in rehab, it wouldn't have gone
down a lot easier.
Regardless, still with Xander and his rocky path to manhood, and I'm
hoping ME will get him out of placesetter mode in S7. (Geez, he could have filmed most of his scenes for
S6 in one day's shooting.)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Anya were placesetters
for most of the season. -- shadowkat, 20:49:14 06/01/02 Sat
Agree except on All
the Way - the best scenes in that were:
1. B/S in the basement.
2. Dawn and the kids and
the old guy in the kitchen
3. B/S in the crypt with the old black and white movie
4. Spike
placing his hand on Giles's shoulder almost scaring Giles to death when surrounded by vamps
5.
Spike telling Vamp that he's the rebel.
6. B/D arguement about being out with a
vamp.
The X/A announcement was also good.
To be honest...I liked Xander in
Gone. He made me laugh. After Gone he started to annoy me...I liked him in HB and SR and Two to
Go...but not Grave. Very weird.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Xander in Grave/unearned
-- alcibiades, 09:19:41 06/03/02 Mon
Didn't like blindivisible Xander in Gone, cause
he was just too blind-dumb. But liked his acting in HB and SR and Villains and 2TG. Like his acting
also in Grave up to the finale.
But just can't buy the ending of Grave. It doesn't work for me.
It's like a get out of jail pass for an entire downward arc after all he has done is whinge about himself. It
doesn't feel earned.
If we had seen Xander actually struggle with himself to be better for 5
minutes, say in one of those moments he was attacking Spike or Anya for being a demon, instead of just
hate himself for being a loser, it might have worked better for me.
As it is, I feel really let
down by the episode.
And I hate what it sets up for next year. More rounds of Xander
intiated Kick the Spike.
Unless, eventually, they make Xander really deal with his flaws.
And apologize all around to Buffy, to Dawn and to Spike, and not just to Anya.
In a lot of
ways, Xander at the end of Grave being the hero reminds me of Riley being the hero in AYW -- also
unearned and without coming to terms in AYW with what happened between him and Buffy in Season 5.
They both felt like a cheat.
I read somewhere that someone commented that if WB-UPN
crossovers had been allowed, the only thing different would have been that it was Angel who discovered
Buffy and Spike together.
Somehow that seems much less offensive to me, and much more
interesting dramatically. Because Angel is so much more grey than Riley was in AYW. He strives to do
right, but he screws it up time after time also. Not like Riley ascending to the sky in a blaze of light in a
dark universe.
But back to the subject at hand, Willow did give Xander pretty much
unconditional support in NA after he returned from the wedding disaster. At the time it bugged me, but I
can see now why it was important for the finale.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The finale is a big first step
on the right track for Xander -- cjl, 09:57:06 06/03/02 Mon
He saved the world,
but can he save himself?
We all know the Xander who confronts Willow at the end of "Grave"
was in there somewhere. Despite the disaster with Anya, his failure to stop Warren in "Seeing Red," all
the misery with his family and the wedding, and his feelings of uselessness, the Xander of "The Zeppo"
was bound to make an appearance. It just took a bit longer than usual this year.
I admit, the
qualities we took for granted in Xander weren't in the forefront of his character in Season 6. And that's
all right. All the main characters were deconstructed, and none of our beloved Scoobs had a particularly
good season. But now that the Xan-Man HAS been torn down, it's time to build the boy back up. Saving
Willow was a good first step, but it's only the first step.
[And I disagree. If the last scene
wasn't "earned" from his actions this season, his love for Willow during the other five seasons made him
the ONLY man for the job. Nobody else could have gotten through: in Willow's state of mind, Buffy was
her rival, and Darth Rosenberg didn't take Dawn's feelings seriously. To Evil!Willow, Dawn was a
whining ball of green energy.]
I believe Season 7 will have Xander questioning his view of
demons and the supernatural. He'll have to come to terms with Anya's demonic state. If she's altered her
vengeance demon prime directive and refuses to employ her powers for evil, Xander will have to
reconsider his stance. He's already dealing with the image of his sweet, wonderful HUMAN friend
Willow as a rampaging killer. (That's got to shake him up some.)
As for Xander's
relationship with Spike...well, depends on how Spike comes back and how much both characters have
changed before they meet again. Will Xander ever apologize to Spike? Will he ever trust him
completely? Will he kind of admit he likes the guy? Wouldn't bet on it. They'll tolerate each other.
Maybe have a grudging respect for each other (see "Spiral"). And to be honest, I think I'd lose respect for
Xander if he reacted any other way.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The finale is a big
first step on the right track for Xander -- alcibiades, 10:19:02 06/03/02 Mon
"As
for Xander's relationship with Spike...well, depends on how Spike comes back and how much both
characters have changed before they meet again. Will Xander ever apologize to Spike? Will he ever trust
him completely? Will he kind of admit he likes the guy? Wouldn't bet on it. They'll tolerate each other.
Maybe have a grudging respect for each other (see "Spiral"). And to be honest, I think I'd lose respect for
Xander if he reacted any other way."
Xander's reactions towards Spike made sense to me in
Season 5 and Bargaining. I can't say they have made a whole lot of sense since then.
After a
summer working together, his taunting of Spike's feelings about Buffy's resurrection in AL, his stupid
blindness in Gone, after having his life saved several times by Spike, his complete dismissal of anything
the guy has done as decent.
Spike made an awful mess in SR, but not until SR. But Xander's
dismissiveness turning into animus was pretty constant. Even before he made a disaster of his wedding
and turned into his father.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The mote in
Buffy's eye, and the stone in Xander's -- cjl, 11:15:19 06/03/02 Mon
In Xander's
world, vampires = bad and Scoobies = good. In "The Harvest," Jesse was his best friend, and the vamps
took him out. That's always going to color his thinking. Even when he knew Angel had a soul and was
helping Buffy, when it came down to it, he always thought of Angel as a vampire first and ally second.
(He said as much in "Prophecy Girl.") The problem with Xander is that his black and white view of the
world, even though it works, oh, 90% of the time, really screws him up the other 10%.
It
always amuses me to hear Xander talk about the Summers Blind Spot when it comes to Spike, because
Xander has that enormous blind spot of his own. One of the main reasons Xander's impending marriage
to Anya fell apart is that he completely tuned out Anya's past history as a demon; their lack of
communication on this topic spread like a disease and sabotaged any chance they would have had to make
their relationship work. (As you'll recall, they even sang a little song about it.)
Xander
couldn't admit to himself that any woman he loves/cares for might have a dark side to her. He couldn't
accept it in Anya, couldn't bear to see it in Willow, and he definitely didn't want to see it in Buffy. Hence,
his near-ridiculous levels of cluelessness in "Gone." Every time he was confronted with evidence that
Buffy might be less than pure, his golden girl, his Joan of Arc, he tuned it out. He got hit with the truth
full force in "Entropy" and he nearly went off the edge. Similarly, he rationalized every instance of
Spike's good deeds as the delusional actions of a love-struck vampire, a beast on a leash with a sick
obsession that occasionally manifested itself as positive action. He acknowledged those actions, but never
trusted the actor.
Still, I'm not sure Xander would have played Kick the Spike quite as much if
he didn't get his cue from Buffy. Buffy was going through her own schizoid reaction to Spike as
lover/evil, soul-less thing, and she constantly showed the latter whenever Xander was in (visible) range.
It would've been nice if Buffy had talked to her friends about the Spuffiness, and her feelings about the
William underneath, but they weren't communicating well in Season 6, and Xander was left to interpret
the events through his own worldview. So we get his cheap shot in "Normal Again," and his general
treatment of Spike as chipped Rottweiler. Not pretty, but consistent.
The root of all this, of
course, is Xander's fear of his own dark side. He's kept it repressed for too long and is unable to deal with
it on any level. He ran away from the wedding, completely convinced his demon would harm Anya and
destroy their lives.
Just as Giles learned to live with, and channel, his Ripper-ness, Xander
has to learn to channel the Harris aggression into a more positive and nuanced outlook on life. With
Anya reverting to demonhood, Buffy shagging Spike, and Willow turning into Darth Rosenberg, his
worldview has received a huge jolt. Acknowledging the dark side of his friends might help him adjust to
the darkness in himself. He's got a long way to go, though, and that'll probably be the focus of his arc in
Season 7.
Once he achieves that balance, he might look at Spike--who is struggling to achieve
that balance from the opposite direction--a little differently. But I think their mutual animosity should
remain. Besides, Alcibiades, it's more fun that way. Some of the best stuff with Angel in Season 1-3 was
the hostile banter between Angel and Xander. You don't want to deprive the writers of all their fun, do
you?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree with
everything except... -- alcibiades, 15:23:29 06/03/02 Mon
CJL
wrote:
"Once he achieves that balance, he might look at Spike--who is struggling to achieve
that balance from the opposite direction--a little differently. But I think their mutual animosity should
remain. Besides, Alcibiades, it's more fun that way. Some of the best stuff with Angel in Season 1-3 was
the hostile banter between Angel and Xander. You don't want to deprive the writers of all their fun, do
you?"
Part of it is just that I am tired of being cheaply manipulated into feeling sorry for Spike
as the underdog because of Xander and Buffy's outrageously bad behaviour when there is no reason for
same.
There were just too many cheap shots this year. And nothing about their relentless
negativity toward Spike had a redeeming edge to it.
Xander and Buffy both projected
their own internal demons onto Spike and kept on trying to get rid of them by battering him verbally or
physically or trying to kill him. Which only made their inner demons bigger and scarier and harder to
fend off or deal with. But that didn't keep them from picking on Spike.
Plus, the reason that
the hostile banter between Xander and Angel was amusing was because of the implied equality of the
characters. Spike was in no way seen as an equal, but beat down incessantly as an inferior being. Even
his feelings weren't validated as important enough to be real. Which put the negativity into a much uglier
framework for me. I imagine, though, that the whole tone will be different next year.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Agree with everything except... -- wina, 15:47:50 06/03/02 Mon
thinking about
it i feel what both Xander and Buffy find unconfortable when dealing with Spike is his vulnerability rather
than just his dark side. Spike is always all out with is passions and weeknesses.He has been around for a
long time and doesnt seem sorted at all, like you are supposed to be when you grow up. I think he brings a
lot of uncertainty to the scoob mix, a lot of ambiguties about right and wrong good and evil.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Actually, alcibiades, I do see your point -- cjl, 17:08:01 06/03/02 Mon
I'd be
perfectly happy if Xander and Spike could somehow go back to the end of Season 5, where Xander didn't
trust Spike, but could almost identify with his feelings and Spike thought Xander was a total git, but
(somewhat) respected him as an ally. Unfortunately, Xander's escalating hostility towards Spike (brought
on by his own internal crises) and then Spike's actions in Seeing Red (brought on by HIS internal crises)
may pre-empt any chance of re-establishing this uneasy, but functional working
relationship.
Still, if you look at the U.S. and Russia, you realize that all you need are the right
circumstances and a lifetime enemy can become a trusted ally. Maybe Xander and Spike need a Greater
Crisis where they put their animosities aside and work together to help their loved ones avert
disaster.
(Hey, I can dream, can't I?)
[> [> Upon watching the episode... (Spoilers on Grave) --
Traveler, 17:14:49 06/01/02 Sat
Maybe the shooting script doesn't clearly state it, but
when the episode was actually shot, there was a very clear cut to Xander still standing at the top of the
hole while Anya was speaking. So if a mistake was made in the script itself, it was rectified when
the show was made.
[> Re: Upon reading the closed captions... -- OnM, 16:29:35
06/01/02 Sat
... we get a third version, which is:
"incinerates what
I chose to protect."
...which is pretty much the same thing meaning-wise as what I
heard. I've played the tape back about six times at this juncture, and each time it clearly sounds like 'I've'
to me, but SMG is speaking so fast that it is very hard to tell definitively.
I would be very
bummed if indeed it were 'I'm chosen to protect' -- sounds like the same old (noble, but still
'passively accepting') Buffy.
Any members of ME secretly reading this board, feel free to make
a definitive statement, OK? Thanks!
Willow the Wha? -- Magus777, 11:18:28
06/01/02 Sat
Simple question, Is there a reason why Joss and ME calls Willow a Wicca
when practicers of the Wiccan religion wouldn't?
[> Re: Willow the Wha? -- Wisewoman, 15:47:59 06/01/02
Sat
Are you asking whether practitioners of the Wiccan religion would not consider
Willow to be Wiccan (i.e. one of them), or why they wouldn't call her a Wicca? Two different
questions.
We've discussed at great length the differences between Real World Wicca and the
type of magic that Willow uses. There are very few similarities so on that basis most Wiccans would not
call Willow a Wiccan. (They might, however, stretch the point and call her a witch.)
They
wouldn't call Willow a Wicca because that's an incorrect use of the word--Wicca is the religion, those who
practise it are Wiccans.
Does that help any?
;o)
[> [> Re: Willow the Wha? -- Magus777, 19:29:49
06/01/02 Sat
Wisewoman
I understand the Wiccan religion well. I'm simply
asking why Joss and ME would go as far as to call Willow a "Wicca" though she pretty much takes the
label as a Sorceress.
[> [> [> Re: Willow the Wha? -- O'Cailleagh,
19:53:57 06/01/02 Sat
I think that Willow calling herself a 'Wicca' is to show that she
doesn't know too much about what Wicca is about, to show that it was the power that she was interested
in.
[> [> [> Would it kill Joss to actually explore Willow's Jewish
background? (Rant) -- cjl, 20:00:54 06/01/02 Sat
First, about the given topic.
Willow is a non-practicing Jew who likes throwin' around the magic. Tara, I think, was a Wiccan
through and through--but Willow had no interest in the discipline. Maybe Giles and Devon coven will
teach her that discipline.
Now, on to the rant. Willow is the only Jewish character in the
series. Would it kill Joss to explore some of byways and maybe even some of the mystical offshoots within
the Jewish faith? (For instance, I've always had a spec fic in mind about the Jewish legend of Lilith and
how it related to vengeance demons and maybe even the power behind the slayers.) Maybe when Willow
goes into family therapy with her folks, we find out that Ira is a Kabbalist, and brings Willow into the
fold. Maybe Willow studies Torah as therapy and its wisdom and intellectual rigor bring solace to her
troubled mind...
OK, the last one wouldn't be very dramatic on screen, but you
know...something?
OK, end of rant.
[> [> [> [> Willow, Giles and the Coven --
Malandanza, 21:05:00 06/01/02 Sat
"Tara, I think, was a Wiccan through and
through--but Willow had no interest in the discipline. Maybe Giles and Devon coven will teach her that
discipline."
I don't think that the Coven is interested in teaching Willow
anything:
GILES: The coven is working on a way to extract her powers without killing
her. (gravely) And should she survive, you ought to know... There's no guarantee she'll be... as she
was.
Grave Shooting Script
It looks like they're going to make sure Willow
never is able to use magic again -- and are hoping that it won't be necessary to kill her in the process
(although that's a risk they're willing to take). As for Giles, the last time someone tried to end the world,
he killed her/him. I think that there aren't going to be any more second chances for Willow -- she's
finished with magic forever -- and Giles and the Coven aren't sending her to a self-help program to ease
her out of her magical addiction. She's getting either a magical form of the chip or a magical lobotomy
(to remove all those dark spells she soaked up). The members of the Coven don't have any emotional
attachments to Willow; they will have no qualms about making certain Willow will never threaten the
world again. Giles might have some issues, but, remember, he suggested that they kill Dawn to save the
world and sent Buffy to her death before. After all, he's "sworn to protect this sorry world, and
sometimes that means saying and doing... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to."
The Gift
Willow's going to have to deal with feelings of impotence (as Spike has since
he's been chipped) in addition to the guilt of torturing (while he begged for mercy) and murdering Warren
and very nearly killing not just Jonathan and Andrew, but Giles, Buffy, Anya, Xander and Dawn (oh --
and the rest of the world, although that was due to the interference of the Coven -- left to her own devices,
Willow might not have progressed past her small circle of friends and acquaintances). But remember,
she's still getting off pretty easily: Angel got sent to hell for Angelus' attempt at ending the world, and
each other person who's tried has gotten the death penalty.
So I don't think the Coven will be
taking Willow on as a promising young novitiate any time soon.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow, Giles and the Coven (Two to
Go and Grave Spoilers) -- Magus777, 21:40:30 06/01/02 Sat
"So I don't think
the Coven will be taking Willow on as a promising young novitiate any time soon."
-Malandanza
Ouch. I sort of agree and I sort of disagree. Willow became the most
powerfullest Witch in the Western Hemisphere as quoted by Anya, in three years. When I read the
discussions about Willow, I was quite surprised that no one was blown away by Willow's Hyper Fast
Uprising. Willow herself admits in Lover's Walk I believe that she isn't full-fledge and that it'll probably
take years to reach such rank.
I bet she didn't mean Three years!
I seriously believe
that if Giles told the Devon Coven that Willow has become what she is now in a matter of three years,
they're jaws would drop. They are in fact a powerful Coven with powerful Witches, not powerful enough
to go up against Willow as the Battle between Willow and Giles proved.
Though they do not
have any emotional attachment to Willow, they have Giles. Seriously, though Willow flaunted her power
and put on a daughter VS father show, you could still tell that Giles loved Willow. The only attack Giles
had was that Incurso spell that he used to knock Willow down, nothing more. Giles spent the entire time
trying to protect himself and others.
(Giles meant to be on the Defensive Side the Entire
time.)
It's quite obvious that Giles wanted Willow to absorb his powers. This proves that Giles
is still Willow's father figure. He's willing to die to not kill his daughter, but to bring her back to her
original self.
The ending the world part thing, I don't think Giles was expecting.
[> [> [> [> I have a theory... -- Traveler, 00:03:30
06/02/02 Sun
You may have noticed that BtVS doesn't really explore religions other than
Wicca at all. Crosses may work against vampires, but we've never seen an explanation of why.
Also, while you can plausibly suggest that there are some christian themes present in the show,
Christianity itself is a completely unexplored as a topic. As some of the wiccans on this board have
pointed out, even the Wicca themes aren't quite right, strickly speaking. My guess is that religion is a
whole can of worms that ME just doesn't want to open. Wicca is somewhat safe, because it is not
mainstream and people don't feel threatened by it. However, if you explored Jewish storylines, people
would expect to see Christian storylines too. How would ME portray these two religions side by side?
After all, some tenants of the Jewish faith contradict tenants of Christianity. If you incorporate them as a
part of your mythology, those contradictions could be hard to work around. Also, if you thought the
lesbian debates so far have been bad, you wouldn't believe how messy the religious debates would be. My
guess is ME (wisely) decided to side step the whole issue altogether. Instead, they created their own
mythology that includes elements from Wicca, Christianity, Judaism, Buddism, and Taoism without
pandering to any of them.
[> [> [> Re: Willow the Wha? -- Wisewoman,
21:26:27 06/01/02 Sat
I'm simply asking why Joss and ME would go as far as to
call Willow a "Wicca"
I don't think they've ever told us. Maybe it was to use Wicca as a
hook to a currently popular cultural trend? The way I see it, they had monsters of several classic types;
vampires, werewolves, demons, etc., etc., so why not witches as well? A witch would round-out the
classical grouping as a sorceress, perhaps, would not. Maybe they felt it was "un-PC" to use the term witch
so Willow the Wicca was born.
Complete speculation on my part, but if they ever have
explained it I'm sure Rufus will have the interview article in her files!
;o)
[> If they wanted to be really cutting-edge, Willow'd be a
Hinjew -- Maroon Lagoon, 16:27:52 06/01/02 Sat
If she can be Jewish and
Wiccan at the same time, why not Jewish and
Hindu?
http://www.satirewire.com/news/may02/hinjews.shtml
[> [> certainly no matter how many times she's reborn, she's
never gonna call her mother -- leslie, 20:29:00 06/01/02 Sat
[> Re: Willow the Wha? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 08:08:40
06/02/02 Sun
"Simple question, Is there a reason why Joss and ME calls Willow a Wicca
when practicers of the Wiccan religion wouldn't?"
-- My theory? Willow calling herself and
others calling Willow a "Wicca" was an honest mistake as the term used to label Willow was of little
importance at the time. Eventually, with the flames being shot at Joss and ME for the use of the word, I
think it became a bit of a joke on the hypersensitive.
"I think that Willow calling herself a
'Wicca' is to show that she doesn't know too much about what Wicca is about, to show that it was the
power that she was interested in."
-- If this is so, then how do you explain everyone else (Anya
and Tara included) referring to Willow as a "Wicca"?
"First, about the given topic. Willow is a
non-practicing Jew who likes throwin' around the magic. Tara, I think, was a Wiccan through and
through--but Willow had no interest in the discipline. Maybe Giles and Devon coven will teach her that
discipline."
-- I don't think there's any indication that the coven in Devon was a Wiccan
coven.
Personally, I think my above theory makes good sense especially since no one on
"Angel" who practices magick is labelled a wicca. Also, I think at this point in time in the Buffyverse, ME
is using 'wicca' as synonymous for 'witch'. Tara was the only person on the show who seemed to have a
philosophy and theology behind her use of magick (Does that mean she's WICCAN? Not really. Tara's
religion remains ambiguous). Both Willow and Amy seemed to only have been interested in the *science*
of magicks and therefore could be labelled as witches or sorcereress as these two terms are simply defined
as "one who practices magick", whereas "wiccan" denotes someone of the religion of Wicca.
I
do not think it's logical to claim that anyone on the show is Wiccan (or rather Neo-Wiccan) because there
isn't enough information on their religious practices. There are many, many, many more magickal
practices out there both with and without religion backing it.
[> [> Wicca to Jewish -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:29:33
06/02/02 Sun
Actually, the writers have shown an often overlooked piece of insight.
Willow is the only Jewish character on the show, and I don't think it's a coincidence they made her into a
witch/wiccan. Surveys have shown that people of Jewish decent are more likely to join a Neo-Pagan
religion than other people. Of course, Willow's practices are not very religious, but then, I think I like it
better that way.
One last non-crossover crossover example... (Finale
spoilers) -- Scroll, 11:43:48 06/01/02 Sat
I realise this topic has been
discussed to death, but I wanted to add one more example of how BtVS S6 and AtS S3 were actually one
humongous crossover all year long.
I think the cliff (Kingman's bluff) that Willow is on when
she tries to end the world is the same cliff behind the Crawford mansion that Angel was on when he tried
to commit suicide. There is the same element of self-hatred and despair, unability to cope with the
emotional pain of life, and the desire to end it all so that others won't have to suffer that same
pain.
Okay, that was my very last contribution to this subject!
[> The shooting script -- Vickie, 11:56:06 06/01/02 Sat
confirms your observation. It is identified as the cliff in Amends.
[> Great catch, Scroll! I also wondered about that cliff. --
Exegy, 18:04:38 06/01/02 Sat
50,000 posts! Congratulations to ATPoBtVS and
Masq! -- d'Herblay, 16:13:26 06/01/02 Sat
Party hats? Champagne?
Footnotes?
Anyone want to start a pool as to when we pass 100,000 posts? (Put me down for
October 21st.)
[> Re: 50,000 posts! Congratulations to ATPoBtVS and Masq! -
- zargon, 17:51:55 06/01/02 Sat
I can just see d'H on October 20..posting like
mad...would that make him a mad poster? Beware everyone, beware! :)
[> And this isn't even our first board, either. -- Masq,
19:34:58 06/01/02 Sat
Used to be at insidetheweb...'
Speaking of
milestones... June 14th, 2nd anniversary of ATPoBtVS posting board!
[> [> Is that why I've been feeling rather older recently? We've
been around for 50,000 posts? -- VampRiley, 20:02:44 06/01/02 Sat
And the fact
that I'm 22 and a couple of weeks ago, I found out that there are some people out there who had never
seen any of the first three Star Wars movies didn't help much either. When I heard that, I felt like I was in
a wheel chair in a nursing home, drool flowing from my mouth. I can see the orderly with the depends
right now. NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VR
[> [> [> And you were how old when the first movie came
out? -- Masq, 13:19:56 06/02/02 Sun
A forward-looking twinkle in your parent's
eyes? 'Cause I was 13 and standing in line for hours to see the first flick!
[> [> [> [> Age is all in the mind. ;P -- VR,
15:43:30 06/02/02 Sun
[> [> [> Re: Is that why I've been feeling rather older recently?
We've been around for 50,000 posts? -- Ronia, 18:13:07 06/02/02 Sun
Hah! Yes,
I'm with you in spirit...I know people my own age who have never seen the previous Star Wars movies
either...and it leads me to wonder...have they been living in a cave all their lives..or were my princess Leia
pajamas not quite as fashionable as I had assumed? No matter...when I heard that theme song in a theater
for the first time since childhood, my nerves hummed and tingled...their loss I say!
[> [> [> [> I'm thinking of not seeing it in the theatre.
-- VR, 18:49:33 06/02/02 Sun
I heard it was almost as bad as The Phantom Menace.
I've read reviews and heard about all this other stuff in it. That is except for Yoda kicking ass. That might
be enough to actually get me to go down there and pay.
[> [> Congratulations to us all. You guys rock. -- Dedalus,
22:05:09 06/01/02 Sat
[> If we all start typing our posts in backwards, -- Maroon
Lagoon, 21:25:32 06/02/02 Sun
will the post count start dropping?
I'm
going to copy this post backwards to make the net size of the post zero. Will that make the NT tag show
up?
?pu wohs gat TN eht kema taht lliW .orez tsop eht fo ezis ten eht ekam ot sdrawkcab tsop
siht ypoc ot gniog m'I
?gnippord trats tnuoc tsop eht lliw
OT: Hello! -- Rowan, 06:20:40 06/02/02 Sun
Just thought I'd pop in and say hello! Sorry I've been such a stranger...I've been weathering
some personal and familial health problems that have caused me to cut down my online activity for quite a
while. But everyone is now hale and hearty again, so hopefully that means more time to indulge myself
with posting and fanfic writing.
Okay, stop groaning at the idea of me writing fanfic.
;)
I hope all is well with everyone here, and congratulations on the 50,000 post
milestone.
Regards,
Rowan
[> Great to have you back! -- Cactus Watcher, 09:24:35
06/02/02 Sun
[> Welcome Back:) -- Aquitaine, 09:54:56 06/02/02
Sun
[> Good to see you. -- Traveler, 10:32:41 06/02/02 Sun
[> YAY!! Glad you're back, Rowan. We missed you! ;o) --
Wisewoman, 11:34:28 06/02/02 Sun
[> Welcome Back Rowan, we missed you -- vampire hunter D,
12:46:37 06/02/02 Sun
This season would have been much more fun if you were here
(I'm sure you would have had plenty to say on the Spike situation)
[> [> My love for Spike is an ever fix'd mark... -- Rowan,
19:29:03 06/02/02 Sun
that looks on tempests and is not shaken. My love and respect
for Buffy, Willow, and Xander, however, is in the toilet.
And I'm finding the underlying ethics
of the Buffyverse to be very suspect indeed.
;)
Rowan
[> Re: OT: Hello! -- Cascante, 12:55:20 06/02/02 Sun
Glad everyone is doing well and you're able to return.
No, I don't groan at your
fanfic, I smile when I read it.
Hope to see you back at all the boards you attend.
[> Welcome back! Maybe you'll join in the summer/2nd anniv
fun? -- Masq, 13:17:48 06/02/02 Sun
[> Oh goody, the other Grabby Hands are back....:):):):):):):) --
Rufus, 16:58:11 06/02/02 Sun
Thank god you stay away from my chocolate....;)
[> [> Re: Oh goody, the other Grabby Hands are
back....:):):):):):):) -- Rowan, 19:20:56 06/02/02 Sun
I just want to know who put
the paw marks all over Spike while I was gone.... ;)
[> [> [> If there is no chocolate on the marks.....it wasn't
me.....;) -- Rufus, 19:32:55 06/02/02 Sun
[> [> [> I think that would be Lee Ann -- vampire hunter
D, 20:23:38 06/02/02 Sun
She's even more obsessed with Spike than you
[> Yay! Rowan! Missed your excellent essays. -- ponygirl,
17:33:57 06/02/02 Sun
[> *Cheesesteak*... *Cheesesteak* ...* Cheesesteak*... oh, hey, she's
here! Cool! -- OnM, 20:59:40 06/02/02 Sun
You are *so* welcome back! What
little goodies have you planned to occupy us this summer?
Great to hear you are doing better
now!
:-) :-) :-)
[> [> Re: *Cheesesteak*... *Cheesesteak* ...* Cheesesteak*... oh,
hey, she's here! Cool! -- Rufus, 22:40:29 06/02/02 Sun
*Cheesesteak*.......what
is this marriage betwixt cheese and steak all about?
[> [> [> Isn't that OnM's special Pennsylvania People-Finder
charm? -- Solitude1056, 23:53:45 06/02/02 Sun
I think he did a DC-version to
find me last summer, after I took a hiatus when I went overseas... ;-)
Welcome back, Rowan,
you were MISSED!!!
[> [> [> [> Yes, you can run but you can't hide for long
once On starts the mojo on you.....:):):) -- Rufus, 01:35:56 06/03/02 Mon
[> Oh my God! -- verdantheart, 06:20:26 06/03/02 Mon
I've really, really missed you! You were always around to put into words (much more
eloquently than I could) exactly what I was thinking! Please don't be a stranger!
I'm sorry to
hear that you have been experiencing problems, and I'm happy to hear that you all seem to have weathered
them!
- vh
[> Missed ya, Rowan, and your amazing posts! So glad to see you're
back. :o) -- Rob, 07:31:57 06/03/02 Mon
[> Nice to see you again :-) -- Dedalus, 08:10:08 06/03/02
Mon
Freezing creativity (Willow and Tara,
Spoilerish) -- cjc36, 07:22:34 06/02/02 Sun
The original topic is about to
slide into the archive. Perhaps this should go to the archive, but here are a few points.
QUOTE FROM TRM
Lesbianism as just another relationship-type doesn't yet
exist in our society and treatment as such may only serve to ignore its complexity.
But are
the ones who have said opinion asking too much from an ensemble TV show about a vampire slayer and
her friends? If they did an episode or two on bigotry and homophobia, would not most of the audience,
including some in the gay community, feel that they were being fed a public service announcement?
Hasn't the relationship actually been show with a certain degree of, if not layered complexity, then
gentleness? Is the gay community wanting more from a TV show not primarily about them?
QUOTE FROM TRM
Were I to argue somewhat from the kitten board
viewpoint, it would not be that lesbian relationships should be forever sacred, but that in the society we
live in today it is imperative to be careful -- if our concern was on social impact -- on what happens with a
lesbian couple.
Now we get into the quagmire. People from the gay community have
advocated portrayals in mainstream media of same-sex relationships emphasizing the humanness of the
gay characters. I have read things like: Treat us like anybody else, please! We love, we have families,
we laugh and cry and pay taxes! We all don't act a certain 'way'. We are of all types. Okay, good
points, all. Now Joss put a lesbian couple in his show. Little did he know it came with a proviso or two,
which comes down to this: Do nothing to these characters that can, in any way, be seen as negative.
Hello?
I've been playing this game in my mind since this debate came to my
attention. Okay, the rules are this: Willow has to go bad by the end of season six, but she doesn't cross the
line of no return. And one more thing: don't make anybody on the kitten board mad.
SCENARIO ONE, THE ANGEL/ANGELUS TRACK: Willow turns bad from
February sweeps on: Okay, does Tara still leave her due to Willow's increasing magick addiction? Say she
does. The reconciliation doesn't happen, and Tara doesn't get killed. POSSIBLE CRITICISM: Joss just
did it to keep the lesbian's apart - thus no lesbian scenes - until season 7.
SCENARIO
TWO: TARA STAYS WITH EVIL WILLOW: a) Tara is mistreated by Willow, more mind-control
stuff, possibly a play on spousal abuse. POSSIBLE CRITICISM: Joss is showing lesbianism to be
unhealthy. b) Tara, in love with Willow so much, joins her in her big bad ways. POSSIBLE CRITICISM:
Joss is saying lesbians all have hidden evil inside them. And some have no self-will or healthy self-image.
SCENARIO THREE: Tara is only wounded, but Willow still does what she did in
TTG/Grave. POSSIBLE CRITICISM: Joss is showing lesbians to be nothing but power hungry devils
with Nazi pretensions.
Anybody else is welcome to crack this and see if they can make it
actually work. The trick is to still make it dramatically effective for the entire BtVS audience. I'm no
writer, as illustrated above, but that was all I could do in an hour.
Which brings me to
another point; the special interest I'm afraid this criticism is influencing is budding writers. I'm not a
writer, or know any professional ones, but I can imagine a budding scribe or two looking at this debate
and deciding to eschew any gay - or any other so-called special interest character. It is becoming obvious
that Joss couldn't do anything in a dramatic (negative) way to Willow without influencing the W/T
dynamic, and thus incurring someone's wrath.
So in putting a lesbian couple on the show, Joss
inadvertently reduced his dramatic choices. I cannot accept that. I can try to empathize with the kitten
board criticism - Willow and Tara represented something wonderful to them - but as gay characters
become common in movies and TV, as gay people come into the mainstream where they belong, bad, trite,
silly and madding things are going to happen to the characters. It has to, or it wouldn't be dramatic
fiction, it would be just dry polemics where nothing bad ever happens and everything turns out okay, a
place where writers are shackled to concepts - or worse, afraid to include 'others' due to all the damn
strings attached if they decide to treat said 'others' like they would any other character.
I'm a
Caucasian American male. One stereotype I might find offensive (I certainly don't) is Xander. One who
does could say Xander is nothing but wacky Hollywood pushing off on a defenseless American public a
weak, pathetic example of manliness, a looser needing women around to save him. He hides an
embarrassing cowardice behind a thin wall of self-deprecating humor, but what is this character really
telling young white American boys?
Would anybody put up with this kind of
criticism?
I'm afraid of this debate coming down to some people getting the idea - on both
sides - that heterosexuals have no business writing gay characters. A heterosexual writer may feel they
don't need the grief or restrictions, or think that they won't 'get it'.
A similar criticism was
leveled against the Hughes brothers when they decided to direct From Hell. Some people in the
African American community pondered why these black directors were wasting their time doing a 'white'
movie, when so much more could be said with their efforts if they did a story about the black experience.
Others in the African American community have criticized white directors taking on black subjects -
Michael Mann and Ali is one recent example, but I remember it going back to Spielberg and
The Color Purple.
Art should be free. Sure, criticism is free also and if Joss had done
something that I felt was wrong, I would be filling the posting boards with how I felt. Criticize, but
understand that for Joss - or any writer - to think solely on the oftentimes conflicting social implications of
what he is doing runs the risk of freezing his creativity in its tracks.
[> Making artistic choices -- Sophist, 07:59:13 06/02/02
Sun
There is a great deal of merit in many of your points. However, I think you left out at
least 1 important consideration.
The problem here is how to deal with a relationship that has,
traditionally, suffered discrimination in our society. You're right in one sense that the writer can't win: if
the portrayal is too favorable, the character is unrealistic; if unfavorable, the character is reinforcing a
stereotype. I agree that it's difficult, but BtVS deliberately chose to go this route -- to have Willow
"explore her sexuality" as Joss (I think) put it -- so they have to accept the responsibility for how they
handle that relationship.
The distinction between this situation and your example of Xander is
easy to make: if Xander is weak (I happen to agree that he is, but I think that was intentional from the
beginning), it doesn't affect me (a white male) because there are lots of "strong" white male figures
available as role models. I don't need to identify with Xander, I can simply accept his characterization and
move on. That is not the case with lesbian characters.
BtVS created the first truly successful
lesbian relationship on TV. Willow/Tara differ from Xander because they were the only positive
role models available now or ever. What happens to them takes on an importance out of all proportion,
just like Jackie Robinson did in a different way.
When a society has a history of discrimination
-- race in the US, anti-Semitism in Germany, lots of other examples -- that society has to be very careful
in its portrayal of the formerly oppressed. For awhile, yes, there may be special rules that apply, different
rules than those that affect the majority, simply in order to avoid a return to the attitudes of the past. There
is, of course, a danger in this as well, and eventually the 2 groups have to be treated exactly the same. I
don't pretend to know exactly where that point is, but I'm confident that it is not at the level of the first
and only successful lesbian couple on TV.
One last point. Your scenarios about W/T are too
narrow. Back up a little and ask the question: Why Willow and Tara? Why not Xander and Anya? Was
there less dramatic possibility in having Xander face a real drug addiction (instead of Willow's phony one)
and having Anya be the one randomly shot just as he was recovering?
I don't know. The
writers need to have lots of scope to make artistic decisions. As long as they make those decisions with
full understanding of any stereotypes they might be reinforcing, and as long as they have good artistic
reasons for proceeding, their choices are defensible even if I would have preferred a different
approach.
[> [> Re: Making artistic choices -- AgnosticSorcerer,
08:24:45 06/02/02 Sun
Such debates as this, I find immensly annoying and they're all
too common amongst the gay community.
Cries for equal treatment, but at the same time,
demands for special treatment.
I'm sorry, but just because someone is a lesbian, bad things
shouldn't happen to them? Tara's death has nothing to do with her sexuality--if Oz was still around, then
Oz would be dead.
"It's not so much what happened to Willow--but that what happened to
Willow put her and Tara into a cliche." Again, I think people who support this cliche argument are just
drawing too many lines between "natural human reaction" and "stereotypical lesbian reaction" themselves.
The story-arc spoke nothing of Willow's sexuality--but her of humanity.
"One last point. Your
scenarios about W/T are too narrow. Back up a little and ask the question: Why Willow and Tara? Why
not Xander and Anya? Was there less dramatic possibility in having Xander face a real drug addiction
(instead of Willow's phony one) and having Anya be the one randomly shot just as he was
recovering?"
-- How would you end the season (or even the series as ME writes every season
finale as the series finale) that way? Do you really think a real drug-arc with Xander would hold as much
dramatic impact as the present arc with Willow had?
How would Xander turn into the big-
bad?
Personally, I think that if stereotypes and cliches are ignored the show is fine. If the
writer(s) does not intentionally insert the stereotype, then it's all good--otherwise you're claiming that no
person will fall into the cliche.
[> [> [> BtVS and the Common Cliche -- Mess,
12:00:36 06/02/02 Sun
Errrr... hi. Long-time lurker, first-time poster, so... please be
gentle :)? I'm so consistently impressed by the opinions posted on this board that I feel a tad bit
intimidated. Feel free to ignore this if it's just baseless blathering.
In any case, I should
probably get to the actual point of this post. That point being that I actually think t Joss may have
employed the evil/dead lesbian cliche purposely. Certainly the man must have been aware of it, and I'm
not of the camp that thinks we can blame every fault of the season on poor beleaguered Marti Noxon.
Why would I think that? That's easy.
Joss has always been about messing with
the cliches - NOT defying them. Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a concept started out with the cliche of the
helpless blonde rinning the from the big mean nasty monsters. Except this time, our starlet was kicking
some ass and taking some names instead of cowering in an corner or behind some brawny hero type. Or
what about, say, Giles? The Stuffy British Academic certainly isn't a new and revolutionary part to play.
Except this time, that Stuffy British Academic was really a driven, often-ruthless (Ben, I'm looking at
YOU) man with a shady past on the punk/demon summoning scene. Giles, shockingly, was not Wesley.
Giles had once been cool.
Messing with the dead/evil lesbian cliche is just the same sort of
twisting of stereotypes that Joss has always done. From what I gather, the death/evilness of the lesbians in
this cliche is usually meant to imply (respectively) punishment for being gay, and the innate corruption of
non-heterosexual lifestyles. If this were true of the scene on BtVS, wouldn't be have been cheering for
Warren? Tara was very clearly portrayed as the innocent victim in a horrific attack - indeed, she's
probably the only cast member innocent of any significant wrongdoing in this entire season. The graphic
nature of the scene is disturbing, not triumphant, and Tara is a martyr to the cause of Scooby Self-
Centeredness of the situation around then (ie - if they'd not brought Buffy back or consistently ignored
their "arch nemeses" in order to brood on their own problems, none of this would have happened). I don't
think that anyone could reasonably argue that Tara's death was NOT set up to be a tragedy. Indeed, alot
of the complaining I've head about killing her off has to do with the fact that she didn't "deserve" death -
as opposed to, say, Spike. Certainly one can't construct Warren as a heroic or even sympathetic character
for having killed her.
Willow's Darthness too can't be fit comfortably within the lesbian
cliche. For one thing, this lust for power within her has been portrayed as present since long before she
came out of the closet. Secondly, over the course of the final episodes we're repeatedly told that at least
part of Willow's problem has to do with the energies she's using, and not Willow herself. Hence Giles
having to introduce the "empathetic" magic into her system. A Willow who could feel did't want to
destory the world. Do I think that the author's giving Willow a partial cop-out due to the dark magics is
good writing? To be frank, not really. I found Willow a much more fascinating character when she was
walking the road of good intentions down to hell. That does not, however, change the actual text that the
writers have given us, and that text says that Willow = corrupted, but not entirely at fault.
The
very same sort of twisting of cliches was done during the very same episodes with Spike's trip to Africa.
As someone with a passing familiarity with thoeries of postcolonial literature, Spike going off to Africa in
order to get his chip out had me much more exasperated than the lesbian death cliche (or permutation of
it). Yes, because the "civilized" European man needs to go to "primitive" Africa in order to get back in
touch with his animalistic dark side. Gag. Yet despite my lack of faith ME came through by showing that
Spike had always intended to get his soul back, turning the that particular rascist cliche (the classic
incarnation of which was Heart of Darkness) on it's head. Spike didn't go to Africa in order to get back in
touch with his Id. Instead, he went there to regain his connection with the higher powers and higher
moral functions - to restore his Superego.
So.... yeah. I can understand why the gay
commuity might be upset about losing such a wonderful role model as Tara and the W/T relationship, just
as I can understand why non-gay shippers would be upset as well. But I think that it's important to look at
HOW Joss et al do things as well as what they've done.
[> [> [> [> Very insightful--and Welcome! -- Vickie,
13:28:58 06/02/02 Sun
These are great points. Thanks for making
them.
You bring up something that has bothered me for a while. Did Buffy never tell Willow
that she'd been framed for Katrina's murder? The depth of noncommunication is hard to believe, but
Willow apparently learned about Katrina in Villains, from Warren.
So nobody told the police?
Even an anonymous tip might have led them to check his blood type against what's under Katrina's
fingernails. And after that, maybe Warren is out of action for a little while.
Truly, the gang's
self-absorption cost Tara her life.
[> [> [> [> Nicely said. And welcome. -- Sophist,
13:33:39 06/02/02 Sun
[> [> [> [> Mess--one point. -- Q, 14:28:01
06/02/02 Sun
Well written thoughts, but I would like to disagree with
this:
>From what I gather, the death/evilness of the lesbians in this cliche is usually meant
to imply (respectively) punishment for being gay, and the innate corruption of non-heterosexual lifestyles.
If this were true of the scene on BtVS, wouldn't be have been cheering for Warren?<
I think
the opposite is true. A lot of people defend this because "Tara's death was not connected at all with the
sex, and therefore wasn't depicted as a punishment for her lifestyle". I think these people are wrong. In
fact, they could have defended the lifestyle BETTER if her death had been a punishment (within the story)
for her being gay. That way they could have dealt with the homophobia and hate crime issue (and it
wouln't have been subtle enough, would have been tacky, and would have looked like a Lifetime
movie)
What offended people are talking about isn't the depiction of the death *within the
story*, but within the work as a whole. Whenever somebody does a symbolic academic reading of a piece
of literature, they are not looking at what ACTUALLY happened in the story, but what can be percieved
SYMBOLICALLY from the story. If it was taken as literal as some would have us take it, then "High
Noon" couldn't be viewed as a "red scare" analogy( there were no commies in the wild west), horror
movies classically belittled for their bigoted or commiephobic overtones wouldn't be read into at all, etc.
etc. The fact is-- possibly THE ONLY decent depiction of a lesbian couple on mainstream TV was
destroyed. One was killed, the other went unstable and crazy. OF COURSE there will be those who give
this a homophobic symbolic reading. Of course Joss and ME knew this, and rolled the dice anyway. They
will have to live with the controversy, and hopefully won't whine too much about it.
[> [> [> [> Re: BtVS and the Common Cliche (S6
Spoilers) -- Jane's Addiction, 15:02:20 06/02/02 Sun
You raise some great
points. Welcome to the board, by the way. I'm pretty new to the board myself, so no need to be
intimidated.
I certainly don't think the ME writers would've chosen to play the dead/evil
lesbian cliche. You make a good point that they may have sought to take some of the power from that
cliche by twisting it. As some have already pointed out, the real problem is simply the dearth of gay role
models on television. It's rather unfair that the ME writers found their characters suddenly expected to
represent a whole community, but that's probably going to be the case until we see a few more characters
that happen to be gay on television. That's what was so great about the W/T relationship, as has been
noted. They weren't "that gay couple", just "that couple", and one of the better couples ever on the show
for that matter.
As to the dark magic mitigating factor in Willow's "Darth Rosenberg" turn ...
You could argue that Willow's been left fewer outs that some of the other main characters ("Sorry about
trying to kill you all, injection of demon poison - it was a thing." "I ate what? And tried to sexually assault
who? Sorry about that - hyena possession and all...") I think the writers always find themselves walking a
fine line to keep their core characters sympathetic, but I imagine we'll still see Willow taking
responsibility for her actions and dealing with the emotional issues that were put on full display as a result
of them.
Nice point about the skewering of the "Heart of Darkness" stereotype in Spike's trip
to Africa. I must say though, I was somewhat surprised to hear that he supposedly had gone in with the
intent of getting re-souled, not de-chipped. Given his comments to the demon ("Bitch thinks she's better
than me ...", "Bitch is gonna see a change ..." ect.), his love really does seem to spring from a hostile
source. Especially when you compare it to his sacrifices in S5, but then that was before an entire season of
Buffy messing with the poor lad's bleached head.
Still, it does make you wonder just what the
new and maybe not-so-improved William will be like. I'm not exactly expecting Angel with higher
cheekbones.
[> [> [> [> [> He could have only been going for one
thing....... -- Rufus, 16:56:23 06/02/02 Sun
I always thought Spike went looking
for the only thing that stood between he and Buffy. I've seen him call the women in his life bitches and
generally make lots of noise, only to do exactly the opposite of what it appeared he had intended to do. To
get to the point that he was willing to do more than just turn from his evil ways (but longing to join in the
chaotic fun in Bargaining), Spike proved that he had grown enough to shed his need for an evil identity.
Now I just want to see the consequences of his choice. Spike may not be able to join Buffy in the light of
day, but his days as a warrior of darkness may be over, if they weren't over from the first time he tried to
protect Buffy from harm in "Family". His quest for a soul was symbolic of his ability to finally grow up
past his insecurities and take the chance of being loved or rejected based upon who he really is.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He could have only been going
for one thing....... -- Jane's Addiction, 19:07:58 06/02/02 Sun
Interesting point.
Given that the ME writers are an evil lot, who knows how things will work out for New Soul Man. If one
agrees that this has been a great quest for Spike all along (as opposed to Angel, who simply had a soul
thrust upon him), Spike's journey ultimately could be seen as more heroic. Given the treatment that heroes
get in the JossVerse, that may not bode well for him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, just so he's all prepared
and all we should sent a First Aid Kit.....;) -- Rufus, 22:39:14 06/02/02 Sun
Containing a few protection spells and a home testing kit that detects souls.....:):):) I wonder
what colour the soul is?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: BtVS and the Common Cliche (S6
Spoilers) -- leslie, 17:51:52 06/02/02
Sun
I find it interesting that the whole argument about the death of Tara as a destruction
of "the only good lesbian relationship on television" seems to be premised on the assumption that Willow
will never have another lesbian relationship. For all her insecurities, Willow seems to fall in love with
cool people--Oz, Tara--and there is no reason to assume that she will never fall in love again. Now, if she
falls in love with a man, I would say the lesbian thing was a complete cop-out on ME's part, but if she
falls in love with another woman, then I think the death of Tara becomes a human tragedy, and the
evil/dead lesbian cliche is really irrelevent.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: BtVS and the Common Cliche
(S6 Spoilers) -- Jane's Addiction, 19:43:04 06/02/02 Sun
>>>I find it
interesting that the whole argument about the death of Tara as a destruction of "the only good lesbian
relationship on television" seems to be premised on the assumption that Willow will never have another
lesbian relationship. <<<
I don't think the argument has been premised on any
assumption about Willow's romantic future so much as network television's present state. We probably
wouldn't have this same debate if network television just had more depictions of gay relationships - good,
bad or indifferent -just like the many straight relationships commonly depicted. Others could probably
comment on this with more with more authority than I can, but is there even one other positive gay
relationship being depicted on network television at this point? Admittedly, that really shouldn't be ME's
responsibility, but in reality it is going to color how fans react to seeing one half of what was actually a
quietly ground-breaking couple being killed and the other half going on a rampage as a
result.
But I agree with you, assuming Willow recovers from this trauma, it seems likely that
she will eventually fall in love with someone else - more than likely a woman.
In any case,
Tara's death certainly should be seen as a human tragedy first and foremost. There just seem to be larger
issues at play that have made this kind of a super-heated controversy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Knew of one other positive
gay relationship -- Dariel, 20:13:18 06/02/02 Sun
Others could probably
comment on this with more with more authority than I can, but is there even one other positive gay
relationship being depicted on network television at this point?
The series "Once and
Again" had a very nice storyline featuring a romance between two high school girls. The story, which
unfolded during the last two months of the television season, was portrayed beautifully. Unfortunately,
the series, which garnered critical praise but not enough viewers, will not be back next year. Too bad--all
of the teenage characters on that show were excellent.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I think it depends. -- Sophist,
20:16:58 06/02/02 Sun
Unless Willow makes a miraculous recovery over the summer,
I can't see her involved with someone else when S7 starts. These things take time, lots of time. It took
almost 2 full seasons for Buffy to get over Angel enough to date Parker and then Riley (and even then
Riley was rebound guy). It took Willow less time with Oz, but then he left her life beyond what Angel did
to Buffy. Even so, half the fans hated Tara because she wasn't Oz. Willow may start anew before the series
ends, but can we?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Soph, how do you count the
months? -- Vickie, 23:58:25 06/02/02 Sun
End of S3 was Angel's
departure.
Beginning of S4 was the Parker fiasco.
Shortly thereafter was Riley.
Conservatively, six months?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Liberally. --
Sophist, 08:32:53 06/03/02 Mon
Buffy and Angel split up in the sexual sense after
Surprise. He's then gone (as a love interest) for the rest of S2 and S3 until FH&T. ME then stretches out
the angst for the rest of S3, during which time they are/aren't a couple. I didn't consider them "really"
dating during S3; I counted that as part of Buffy's recovery time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I saw it
differently -- Vickie, 09:56:03 06/03/02 Mon
I don't count them as broken up
until The Prom, or maybe Graduation Day. I counted the Angelus thing as a break--"we were on a
break!"
Thing is, I don't really see Buffy start giving up the relationship until GD.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Recovery
time -- Dead Soul, 14:54:12 06/03/02 Mon
Believe me, there was no way Buffy
was ever going to "recover" with Angel around the way he was in Season 3. JMHO.
Dead
(been there, done that) Soul
[> [> [> Doesn't recognition of that as a stereotypical
behavior... -- AngelVSAngelus, 12:03:57 06/02/02 Sun
or as a part of any cliche
seem to reveal something more about those of the audience than the creator? An example, to
illustrate:
I'm no big Star Wars fan, nor did I enjoy The Phantom Menace, but that's not my
point here. George Lucas had accusations of racism and bigotry levied against him for the character Jar
Jar Binks, which people claimed was intended to be a negative and stereotypical characature of African
Americans. Color me cynical, but I don't exactly trust George Lucas unendingly. Perhaps it was. But that
doesn't concern me, because of the fact that I, and hopefully most others, didn't draw any mental paralels
between a computer generated alien creature and any real life racial demographic. What does it say about
the person who did the accusing, that when they saw on the screen a bumbling creature with bad grammar
and odd venacular they drew comparisons to any racial group? Who's the discriminator here, George
Lucas, or that audience member?
It's really disconcerting to me that anyone would believe that
Joss Whedon would write scenarios involving characters not just as people, representative of themselves
and themselves alone, but as signifiers for any 'group', and that their behavior would represent the
aforementioned group. But, even more disturbing to me, is the fact that when people watched what
Willow did, THEY drew paralels between her behavior and a group.
As a member of a
number of 'minority groups' (African American/Native American, bisexual, etc) I've never watched any of
those characters do anything on the show and assumed that any of them should be representative of a
person outside themselves in their world, or any real person in ours. It bothers me that instead of thinking
of people as subjective individuals, when it comes down to it, for some, Willow represents lesbians
everywhere, Xander represents men everywhere, Buffy blondes, etc. This kind of grouping seems to me to
just perpetuate the problem that's being complained about.
[> [> [> [> I concur! -- cjc36, 05:44:50 06/03/02
Mon
[> [> [> [> It's not recognition of stereotypical
behavior... -- Dariel, 11:20:31 06/03/02 Mon
It's recognition of a stereotypical
image. People objected to the Jar Jar Binks characterization because it resembled past
characterizations of blacks in film and television. In the not-so-distant past, blacks, like Binks, where
often portrayed as "bumbling creature(s) with bad grammar and odd venacular."
[> [> Wow! *very* well put! -- Q, 14:15:36 06/02/02
Sun
[> [> Re: Making artistic choices -- cjc36, 00:58:28
06/03/02 Mon
Thank you for your comments, Sophist. Actually, I do kinda identify with
Xander - I wish I were half as funny and charming!
I can understand your side of the debate,
but I still fear there is danger of somehow quelling art.
Jackie Robinson was a real man.
Willow and Tara are fictional. Both icons, yes.
The reason I narrowed down the choices is
this: we all could take a legal pad and an afternoon and redo in broad strokes the last, oh, say, three
seasons. I decided to be fair and limit the end result to what transpired in TTG/Grave.
One
reason I liked seeing Dark Willow was the chance for an Alyson Hannigan tour de force. And
she handled it very well, IMHO. Is this equal to the concerns from the gay community? Does one actress
getting a big arc equal social injustice of utilizing a cliché to do it? I don't know. Personally I feel that the
relationship was treated better than one had a right to expect given the network it aired on at the time and
the general hype-infested air about media in general.
I felt it necessary to point out that there
is, and I lothe the word, but baggage attached to any character associated with a minority group. Is this,
ultimately, helping with inclusion?
Hopefully one day people will be accepted as they are and
debates like this will be relegated to history. We can only hope.
[> [> Why Willow and Tara? Because ... -- Earl Allison, 03:06:20 06/03/02 Mon
Willow was picked because they'd been setting up the "Dark Phoenix" storyline for quite a
while -- although in the end, they flinched.
The EEEVIL magic made her do it :) While Giles'
infusion of "good" magic is what made Willow decide to destroy the world -- somehow for its own good --
it also offset the EEEVIL magic, too. I'm glad we have Willow back, but the EEEVIL magic bit was a bit
much, IMHO -- it takes a lot away from Willow being personally responsible. Still, on to the main
course.
Okay, Tara HAD to die. I think a few posters here already made that point -- that the
only way to get a truly brassed-off Willow would be to kill Tara -- even nearly killing Buffy didn't do
it.
So, why did it happen when it did? Personally, IMHO, because ME was determined to give
SOMETHING to the fans, by bringing Tara and Willow back together in the relationship. Imagine how
much ANGRIER certain vocal groups would have been had Willow never reestablished her love (and had
it reciprocated) by Tara? Sure, there is the undercurrent of the fact that they (the writers) knew Tara was
going to die, but the only way to avoid the "sex-death" portion would have been to have Tara and Willow
reconcile earlier (possibly by an episode or two), which would have taken away from the seriousness of the
breakup, belittling it.
Frankly, ME couldn't win no matter what they did. If Willow and Tara
never reconciled, would Willow's rage have been as severe? It's not like something was snatched from her
grasp after she only just regained it in that case. And had they reconciled earlier, some of the dramatics
would have been lost.
Maybe (and I stress, MAYBE) they shouldn't have stayed in bed all day
and been so public about it, but to get the most bang out of the story, to be the most emotionally
devastating to Willow (because anything less would have undercut her grief and rage), it pretty much had
to play out this way.
Take it and run.
[> [> [> Re: Why Willow and Tara? Because ... -- cjc36,
05:14:43 06/03/02 Mon
Mr. Allison, this is close to my take. I was one of the fans
wanting to see Willow through AH's portrayal, have her day in the uh, darkness, so to speak. A lot of folks
see this as just another 'confidant', or Scooby, going bad, something that's been done before, thus is cliché.
I'm trying to see it, but I think that if the Dark Willow storyline - putting aside all other controversies - is
cliché, then it merely speaks to the comic book DNA of BtVS, where sidekicks, sidemen etc have been
known to go bad time to time. Is it good? Depends on one's viewpoint.
(ME could've handled
the addiction with a bit of a lighter touch. Banging us over the head with it in Wrecked did come off like a
PSA announcement. MAGICK MADNESS!)
Buffy falls in love with a vampire? Who turns
BAD after she looses her virginity to him? One could argue that's cliché.
[> [> [> ME and red herrings -- Traveler, 19:30:36
06/03/02 Mon
"The EEEVIL magic made her do it :) While Giles' infusion of "good"
magic is what made Willow decide to destroy the world -- somehow for its own good -- it also offset the
EEEVIL magic, too."
I agree with the people who say that Willow totally responsible for
her actions as "Dark Willow." The magic didn't make her do anything, and she chose to absorb those dark
volumes in the first place. A lot of people got stuck on the magic addiction storyline and were never able
to see past it. Magic was a metaphore for addiction. When the metaphore became reality, many threw up
their hands and gave up. What most don't see is that addiction became a metaphore for insecurity. The
whole magic addiction storyline was a red herring that ME threw in to make us believe that Willow could
get over her problems by simply not practicing magic. As the finale showed, this was obviously not the
case. Willow does have issues completely seperate from magic, and Xander begins to address those issues
at the end. I believe we will see Willow dealing with them for real next season.
[> [> [> Re: Why Willow and Tara? Because ... --
Dochawk, 20:39:28 06/03/02 Mon
Your right for this story line they had to kill Tara
(though I think even ME has recognized that they made a mistake killing her after having sex). The real
question is why this story line? So Willow had a dark side to her? SO did Xander, so did Giles for that
matter, and they took her dark side out of responsibility as you said already/. Willow deserves the electric
chair for her actions, ME wants us to let her off the hook. Something really wrong with the messages they
are sending lately, which is why I expect them to expect us to accept a woman welcoming back her
attempted rapist.... different story.
[> A Scenario you may have missed -- Q, 14:12:52 06/02/02
Sun
Scenario 4:
Willow doesn't go bad in the first place.
I feel the
entire Willow-goes-evil storyline is the root of all that is wrong here. 1st--it wasn't very original AT ALL.
The writers have a bad habit of making a good character go bad whenever they need a shot in the arm,
and it is starting to be too much. When it happened to Angel, I was OK with it. The very next year it
happened to Faith. It seemed VERY cliched, but since the circumstances were different, and much more
complex, I lived with it. Now they are doing it with Wesley AND Willow. Granted, they keep it
somewhat interesting because each of these situations are so much different, but you can't deny the fact
that in exactly 50% of the BtVS seasons the big bad ended up being a trusted allie of the Scooby Gang.
This is a horribly unoriginal cliche. Because they went down this road, they were painted in the corner
you mentioned, where NO OUTCOME would work all that well. The root of the problem wasn't in
"Seeing Red" or the subsequent episodes, but much earlier when they decided to once again tread down
this well worn path.
Not only was the Willow-goes-evil plot unoriginal, but it was FAR too
predictable. We all have seen it coming since Becomings. I think it would have been a lot more creative
to bring her to the brink-- and then go a different direction than we all were expecting, unfortunately, it
didn't happen, and we are left with an unsatisfying conclusion to the plot line, no matter how it
ended.
[> [> Re: A Scenario you may have missed -- DEN,
14:46:48 06/02/02 Sun
For what it's worth, Q, I fully agree. It took way too much
story-line effort, and way too many plot contrivances, to get a climax that was required to be half-hearted
because other plot imperatives made it impossible either to kill Willow, keep her "dark," or have her
spend the next season in despair.
[> [> You are right, of course... -- Dariel, 19:23:45
06/02/02 Sun
There was nothing sacred about this plotline. Most defenses of ME, in fact,
seem to revolve around the notion that Willow had to go evil at the end of Season 6, and that only
something like Tara's death would serve to launch her on this path.
As you've pointed out,
Willow's abuse of magic could have been handled other ways. It would have been quite plausible, for
example, to have Tara leave her for good over the mind-wipe, with Willow then propelled onto an ever
darker path.
I understand the viewpoint that says one's art shouldn't be impinged by the need
to please everyone. However, if you're going to advance a storyline that will offend some people, then that
storyline needs to be an important one. I'm willing to give ME the benefit of the doubt until next season,
but I sure don't see it yet.
[> [> [> Re: You are right, of course... -- Q, 21:33:04
06/02/02 Sun
Thank you. I meant to be more explicit and say what you did
here:
>There was nothing sacred about this plotline. Most defenses of ME, in fact, seem to
revolve around the notion that Willow had to go evil at the end of Season 6, and that only something like
Tara's death would serve to launch her on this path.<
All of the scenarios above RELY on
Willow going bad, but she didn't NEED to. I didn't care for it, just because it VERY MUCH lacked
originality. I pointed out how unoriginal it was to have a scoobie allie be the season-ending big bad, and
how that has been done in 50% of the seasons. But another major problem was how much it resembled
LAST SEASON. If we remember right, Tara got brainsucked (and since I thought it was permanent, I
equated it with death, only maybe worse), and Willow went all vengeful. They just did the exact same
thing this year (complete with flying knives), but with a dead Tara instead of braindead one. Nothing
sacred in that unoriginal storyline at all, if you ask me.
[> [> [> [> Re: You are right, of course... -- Dochawk,
20:45:18 06/03/02 Mon
An excellent point! You do realize that Joss has been
planning this for 3 years. In an interview after Season 3 he said "I have evil plans for Willow, you won't
believe it". Problem is we did but we didn't.
[> [> Nerd power trip -- cjc36, 01:21:41 06/03/02
Mon
I agree it took too long for Willow to go bad. I don't agree it was a bad choice no
matter what. The warnings were given to her since season 2, by Giles especially.
It's actually
good they didn't take the Angelus track - Willow was pretty much 'herself' when she went bad. No soul-
lessness, no possession - worse sins, IMHO. She herself, with no personality modifiers other than grief,
rage, and addiction, went over the edge.
The one not-so-good thing ME did was switch what
"Wicca" was standing for. First, it was lesbianism. Then, this season, it became addiction. Mixed, to be
sure.
But the nerd head tripping on power, to me, was not cleche (Willow, but also the Trio).
Maybe I'm not that well read, but it worked. And 'love' saving the day and pulling someone from the brink
of her own destruction - that also worked for me, wonderfully, and really could only work as well this far
into the series's run. W/X's friendship goes back a bit for even us viewers. It's as natural as any long-term
friendship and has resonance, which AH and NB played to on the clif at the 'temple.'
[> [> Answers you may have missed. -- Traveler,
19:44:17 06/03/02 Mon
"The writers have a bad habit of making a good character
go bad whenever they need a shot in the arm, and it is starting to be too much. "
Storylines
for the entire year are created before the season begins. The show's ratings had no impact on any of the
examples that you give.
"When it happened to Angel, I was OK with it. The very next year
it happened to Faith. It seemed VERY cliched, but since the circumstances were different, and much more
complex, I lived with it. Now they are doing it with Wesley AND Willow. "
The
circumstances and conclusions to all the events you list were different for each character. Yes, ME is
exploring a common theme (over two networks) from multiple perspectives, but they certainly aren't
repeating the same story over and over again. What about Oz? Did he go evil as a werewolf? What about
Giles, when he became the ripper? What about Xander when he became a hyena-man? ME chooses to
explore the evil that lies in the hearts of all men and women. Personally, I find it interesting. If you don't
like it, watch the carebears.
"Not only was the Willow-goes-evil plot unoriginal, but it was
FAR too predictable. We all have seen it coming since Becomings."
This is called
"foreshadowing." It is an artistic technique used to hint to the viewer what is likely to happen in the
future.
"we are left with an unsatisfying conclusion to the plot line, no matter how it
ended."
Speak for yourself. I thought that the finale was beautifully done.
Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile (guess
what, spoilers LOL) -- The Last Jack, 11:42:13 06/02/02 Sun
Okay, when
Xander goes to confront Willow, he steps in front of the engery blast that Willow is targeting at the effigy,
stopping the spell (or whatever it was). Considering all the magic he has seen Willow do, wasn't he afraid
the blast would kill him or flesh fry him? How did he know his body would simply stop the magic?
[> Re: Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile (guess what,
spoilers LOL) -- Jane's Addiction, 12:14:28 06/02/02 Sun
I don't think he did
know. Xander really can show incredible bravery at times (and incredible stupidity - could be this was a
bit of both). I think there are two schools of thought on whether he even heard Giles' comment that
superpowers weren't enough to stop Willow.
But the idea that he simply went to her
understanding that he might die is what gives the act so much power in my view. It was a pure statement
about the power of unconditional love - the one thing we hadn't seen from Xander before. It did seem to be
a rather sudden jump forward in Xander's character development, but a powerful one all the same. If the
end was coming, he wanted to be with his lifelong best friend when it happened, even if she was one
bringing it. He wanted his last act to be telling his best friend that he loved her. I don't know that he
understood that that could stop her, or resuscitate her humanity. He simply said it because it was true. At
least that's my take on it.
[> [> What Xander really did (still spoilers) -- Vickie,
13:22:56 06/02/02 Sun
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought this. When I
first watched Grave, I thought Xander told Willow EXACTLY what he was doing.
He thought
the world was going to end and Willow was going to do it. In that situation, he wanted to go out with his
friend, and felt that she owed it to him to kill him first.
I really think he was as surprised as the
rest of us that he managed to stop her.
[> [> [> Re: What Xander really did (still spoilers) --
maddog, 15:28:41 06/02/02 Sun
Is there any other way to interpret that? I'd like to
see evidence to oppose what you said because I've watched the last 20 minutes 5 or 6 times and I just don't
see it any other way.
What's funny about that exchange is not only did Xander tell Willow
exactly what he was going to do, but she stood there and said, "Is this the master plan? You're gonna stop
me by tellin me ya love me?", which is exactly what he did. Funny how we overlook the obvious
sometimes.
[> Re: Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile (guess what,
spoilers LOL) -- rattletrap, 13:06:00 06/02/02 Sun
Okay, look at it this
way:
Option 1: Xander steps in front of Willow's magic blast
Possible upside: stops the
magic, gets to talk to Willow, maybe save the world
Possible downside: get zapped and
killed
Option 2: Xander sits by and watches
Downside: Willow destroys the
world
Upside: Xander lives an extra 1 minute before being killed when Willow destroys the
world
Why not take the chance?
[> [> Re: Xander's Wager (guess what, spoilers LOL) --
mundusmundi, 14:54:33 06/02/02 Sun
I agree with the school of thought that Xander
didn't know he could stop Willow -- that indeed, he didn't expect to. When Willow fails to flambe him, he
looks as surprised as she is. It's the same heroic lunacy he showed in "The Zeppo," the same stubborn,
digging-in-his-heels positive inertia, only with more love and empathy.
[> [> [> what a gorgeous Xander description! --
auroramama, 15:09:31 06/02/02 Sun
>>It's the same heroic lunacy he showed
in "The Zeppo," the same stubborn, digging-in-his-heels positive inertia, only with more love and
empathy.>>
All these archetypes of Earth (anagram of heart) come crowding into my
mind when I think of this. Oh, and the bit in =Good Omens= about the kind of person who's so steadfast
that they can act as a fulcrum -- the stable point that even the most powerful magic needs to move the
world. (Adam's adoptive dad, in that case.) Whenever the BtVS world needs saving, it doesn't just need
superheroes and witches and books of arcana; it generally requires a Xander.
One of the
marvelous things about Xander's characterization is that he *isn't* white-bread, he's full of storms (little
earthquakes?), but he's still that crucial grounding element.
auroramama
[> Re: Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile (guess what,
spoilers LOL) -- maddog, 15:21:19 06/02/02 Sun
Did you listen to his speech?
He thought Willow was about to end it all. He tells her that if she's going to end the world then he would
rather be no other place.
Xander: "So if I'm goin out, it's here. If you wanna kill the world,
well then start with me. I've earned that"
Willow: "You think I won't?"
Xander:
"It doesn't matter...I'll still love you"
Xander wasn't afraid of dying...not this time. He didn't
know what the blast would do...that's what makes him heroic. That's what makes the ending so special.
He put himself on the line to reach out to whatever humanity Willow had left(and for all he knew she had
none).
[> Re: Okay, this has been bothering me for awhile (guess what,
spoilers LOL) -- Darby, 19:55:57 06/02/02 Sun
What wound up being in the
effects wasn't really, to my mind, what was in the shooting script. The script talks about a type of contact
(based on eye contact) between Willow and the effigy that Xander breaks by stepping between them
(twice). I think that they got too enthusiastic with the CGI and made it too blast-like, when it could,
maybe should have looked more like a link or conduit that could be blocked without risking certain death
(as you can tell, I had the same reaction to the scene). Willow sapping the life energy from the Earth to
pass to the effigy, and the spread of death around her, didn't come across either when I saw the episode - I
haven't watched it again yet, so maybe that part was just me.
This brings up a point I'm not
sure has been discussed. Okay, Willow killed two bad guys and went after two who were more-or-less
innocent, and that was less than good. But she also, repeatedly, did things that except for the blessing of
scriptwriting were intended to kill Giles and probably Buffy in the Magic Box, as well as Dawn and
Xander with the ball of fire. She quite actively tried to kill her friends. To me, these acts should weigh
on her most, but like Buffy's pummeling of Spike or, largely, Buffy's trying to kill everyone in the
basement, I'm sadly expecting ME to ignore such ramifications.
It could just as easily turned out this way --
The Last Jack, 19:27:31 06/02/02 Sun
*Xander arrives at the cliff just in time to see
Willow begin the earth's self-destruction. He knows he has one chance to stop her, one chance to reason
with her, to save her from herself. Heroically, he jumps in front of Willow's spell beam...and is burnt to an
unrecognizable crisp*
"What the hell?!" says Willow, pausing long enough to look at the
charred remains of something lying on the ground.
"Huh." she says, and begins to fire up the
effigy again. As the world starts to explode around her, and all life is wiped out, the spirit of Xander
lingers around long enough to witness the earth's demise.
"Damn it," he thinks, "I knew I
should have just hit her over the head with a rock."
(My attempt at humor; hoped you
liked it)
[> ROFL (Well, I liked it...) ;o) -- dubdub, 22:16:15
06/02/02 Sun
[> I shoulda brought the GD anvil -- Vickie, 22:39:42
06/02/02 Sun
[> Despite my love of that scene, I had thought of that, too! --
cjc36, 01:43:38 06/03/02 Mon
What is your favorite season finale? --
Wynn, 19:47:04 06/02/02 Sun
To help pass away the many, many months between
now and the new seasons of BtVS and AtS (which I have just started watching) I thought I would ask
everyone here what his/her favorite season finale is and why. Obviously, here are the
choices:
S1: Prophecy Girl
S2: Becoming 1 & 2
S3: Graduation Day 1 & 2
S4:
Restless
S5: The Gift
S6: Two to Go/Grave
It's a hard choice, but I went with
Restless. IMO, Fury's Grave doesn't hold a candle to any of Whedon's finales. So out of Joss'... I chose
Restless because it was daring. An entire episode devoted to dreams is a huge risk; it could have been a
big imagery salad, with just a bunch of random stuff thrown together, but Joss wrote and directed an
insightful, illuminating finale to an uneven season. I loved the W/T interaction and "Death of a
Salesman" Slayer-style in Willow's dream; the playground scene and Anya & Giles in French in Xander's
dream; the B/G interaction and carnival attraction Spike in Giles' dream; and Primeval Buffy (with the
mud) and the Tara/First Slayer/Buffy scene in Buffy's dream. Plus, it had the Cheese Man.
I
can't choose a second favorite between the rest of JW's finales. I love them all.
I can't wait to
read everyone's responses!
[> Voting for Restless (spoil and spec, of course) -- SpikeMom, 20:10:02 06/02/02 Sun
This espisode is still driving plot points and being revealed. It gave us a lot of insight into the
pyches of our protagonists. I also thought the characters being identified with their Tarot card names and
the roles they played in Primevil was important since it was being repeated. I think it is a bridge between
the first four seasons and the last four(?!)seasons. I want more than that, here's hoping. Besides all that,
Cowboy Riley was just too hysterical and dead on.
[> Re: What is your favorite season finale? -- Q, 21:21:40
06/02/02 Sun
In a way, I think it is unfair to compare "Restless" to the rest. Every other
season finale featured the "Giant-epic-end of year-battle" we are so familiar with. In season 4, Primeval
served as that function. Restless didn't fit as a season finale, and can't be compared to a season premier.
It seemed to exist "outside" of conventional Buffy time. As the events were just a dream, the episode itself
seems to be just an abberation. Where the events of the episode itself were not nearly as important as the
foreshadowing, symbolism, and statements. I am officially taking it out of the running in my vote, but I
did love it. But in a way different than why I usually love Buffy eps. I loved it for it's film making more
than it's story telling. Only "The Body" compares in that respect. So the countdown
begins....
5) Two to go/ Grave
The ONLY reason this is so far down is because of
my SERIOUS misgivings about the "Spike with soul" story line. If they prove this to be a decent story
next year, and NOT just a forced, contrived, plot device to "hook up" Spike and Buffy, and NOT just a re-
hash of the Angel story, and NOT tacky and cheesy, this ep. may move up on my list. It was full of
action, full of darkness, and full of deepness--and I LOVED seeing Giles again. Unfortunately, too much
controversy surrounds it now-- The oft talked about dealing with the lesbian issue in the end, my
misgivings about the last 10 seconds, The unoriginality of having *yet another* scoobie allie be the season
ending big-bad, and the heavy handed metaphors as they "crawled out of the grave". Still great
though.
4) Prophecy Girl
Really, the only reason this one isn't up there is because
the show was SO much lighter back then. It was still so good! And it seemed to foreshadow a darker
future for the gang. (The scene with Willow saying "It wasn't our world anymore--they made it theirs) was
PRICELESS!
3) Graduation Day
The only reason this one is so high on the list is
because of Faith. Really, the eps I ranked 5, 4, and 3 are pretty much a tie in my mind. The "killing" of
Faith, the dream visit by Faith, and the metaphorical sex scene between Buffy and Angel put this one just
a tiny bit higher than the others.
2) The Gift
So amazing! After seeing it I am shocked
that any episode, let alone any season finale could be better. But there was one that was better. I loved
the comparisons between this and Becomings: The "death" of a main character, said character being
refered to as "the key", said characters blood being the only thing able to close the portal that would
destroy the world. But in the end, Becomings gets the Kudo's for originality because it did all of these
things first.
1) Becomings
I doubt it needs much explaining! WOW! So tragic, so
beautiful, and so exciting. The ep that convinced me to NEVER leave my tv on a tuesday night.!
[> [> Re: What is your favorite season finale?(spoiler) --
skpe, 06:30:47 06/03/02 Mon
I mostly agree with Q's rankings and for the reasons
stated, with the possible exceptions of 1 & 2. Both are very close in my mind but it is little things like the
'ST.Krispen's day' speech that put the 'Gift' on top for me.I also agree that the Weadon eps are the best.
He may be a cruel hartless bastard, (someone still stressing over Tara's death) but he's the best writer in
ME and among the best in the industry.
[> [> [> Gotta go with "Restless," but... -- cjl,
07:33:24 06/03/02 Mon
"Becoming" is one of the great episodes of the series, and
when Buffy sent Angel to hell AFTER he was "cured," I think my jaw crashed through the floor. When
(not if, but when) I pick up my Season 2 DVD set, I'll pay closer attention to Part I and Angel's backstory,
because the spinoff pretty much starts right there.
However....
"Restless" goes
beyond a "great episode." Surreal and impressionistic, both erudite and gut-busting-ly funny in spots, the
episode covers thousands of years of the Whedonverse, reflects on the past and hints at the future, all in
the context of investigating the minds of four characters we all know and love dearly. There's nothing
else like it, in the Buffy series or on network TV. An amazing accomplishment.
[> Unfair fight? -- CW, 08:19:29 06/03/02 Mon
There must be people who won't pick Restless, but like some of the folks above, I think it
belongs on a different plane. I like to call Primeval the finale of season 4, and call Restless a mid-series
bonus.
Looked at it that way I'd rank
them
Becoming
Graduation
Primeval
The Gift
Prophecy Girl
2 to
Go/Grave
Since I think Prophecy Girl is a truly superb episode and this season's finales are not
far behind it, it a pretty amazing group.
[> [> I agree... -- Rob, 08:50:06 06/03/02 Mon
If "Restless" is counted as the season finale, yes, it definitely beats all the rest into a bloody
heap...but, in many ways, the story wrap-up typical of a season finale was done in "Primeval," so it was
like a bonus episode at the end of the season. So perhaps we should change the terminology from "season
finale" to "climactic episode," whether that be the season finale or not.
The second-best season
finale, then, and best climactic episode, was "The Gift," IMO. I was tense through that entire episode, and
absolutely fell apart at the end. No show has ever done that to me to the extent "The Gift"
did.
For my whole list, I think I'd go with, if "Restless" is counted as the season
finale:
1) Restless
2) The Gift
3) Becoming
4) Grave
5) Graduation
Day
6) Prophecy Girl
If "Primeval" is counted as the season finale, the list would
be:
1) The Gift
2) Becoming
3) Grave
4) Primeval
5) Graduation
Day
6) Prophecy Girl
Rob
[> [> Agree also -- matching mole, 10:15:18 06/03/02
Mon
Restless should be disqualified on two grounds - it is only tangentially related to the
arc of season 4 and it is so different in structure and content from the other finales.
In general
the finales have tended not be my favourite episodes but here is my order.
Becoming I and II -
Surprising, shocking, heartbreaking, and hilarious.
Primeval - While the Initiative arc wasn't my
favourite I did think that this was a good wrap up.
Prophecy Girl - A strong early
effort.
Two to Go/Grave - Cathartic, exciting, and personal if, IMHO, a bit of a
stretch.
Graduation and The Gift (tie) - This is just my 'less is more' bias coming out. I like
my apocalypses smaller in scale.
[> [> If Restless is disqualified, then 2, 5, 1, 3, 4, 6 --
Sophist, 10:53:22 06/03/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Unfair fight? -- rattletrap, 13:45:11 06/03/02
Mon
I tend to agree, sticking "Restless" in the list is like an orange in a box of apples, it
just doesn't quite fit.
1. TTG/Grave -- A rare finale that did everything I expected of it and
more. I thought it beautifully resolved most of the major stories of the season and left plenty of room for
future plot development.
2. Graduation Day -- I'm a huge fan of epic battles, and this one had
it in spades. A great catharctic end to a great season.
3. The Gift -- See above re: epic battles.
The troll hammer was a bit of a stretch, and it was on the manipulative side, but I enjoyed it so thoroughly
that I can forgive all of that.
4. Becoming -- I respect this episode as technically well done,
and I enjoyed it very much, but the style of writing is a bit like a jujitsu choke-hold ("Does this hurt? . . .
How 'bout now? . . . Say uncle . . . ") and I find it a little overpowering.
5. Prophecy Girl -- A
great episode, but something has to be toward the bottom of the list and this one just doesn't quite measure
up to the others because of the show's lighter tone in the old days, plus it was only an hour
long.
6. Primieval -- A solid, very well done episode, but it capped the story that was my least
favorite part of S4, a season that I rather liked otherwise.
[> [> [> I'd say -- Rufus, 01:53:37 06/04/02 Tue
The Gift
Two to Go and Grave
Restless
Graduation
Day
Becoming
Prophecy Girl
And it's a close race between them
all.
[> My Favorites -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:28:21 06/03/02
Mon
I agree Restless shouldn't count, but, if it did, it would be at the bottom of my list
(waits for gasping to die down).
6: Two to Go/Grave (Frankly, Willow going evil was just a
bit too fast, and the Apocalypse seems tacked on, plus, only one person died).
5: Becoming I/II
(Maybe it's because I saw it on reruns, so I already knew Angel would die, as well as how and why. Also,
the final fight seemed pretty small for the end to an epic storyline. Spike was great as always,
though.
4: Yoko Factor/Primevil (An action spectactular, only brought down by Uber-Buffy
(seemed kind of deux ex machine) and the demons as animals thing, which I've never
liked).
3: Prophecy Girl (it had an Apocalypse, an army of vampires, and the Master's battle
with Buffy. One flaw: the Hellmouth beast looked sooooooooooo fake!)
2: Graduation Day
I/II (the epic battle was truly that, a battle. The students gaining up on the Mayor demon was
spectacular. It made my scalp tingle!)
1: The Gift (along with Spiral and Weight of the
World, which may as well be parts of it) (Buffy beats her biggest Bad ever, with the aid of all her friends.
Enemies and allies are prevelent. Buffy giving up herself, Giles murdering Ben, Spike protecting Dawn,
and everything made this the greatest Season Finale ever).
Disagree? Go right ahead!
[> Restless...with Becoming Part I & II a close second (Spoilers for
Season 6) -- shadowkat, 18:14:52 06/03/02 Mon
For sheer artistry and layered
writing - Restless. Best dream episode I've seen on TV or the movies, Joss outdid David Lynch IMHO on
this one. Also it gave us insite into every character, furthered their arcs, and raised some interesting
questions.
For suspense and surprises? Becoming Part I & II are the best. They also further all
the characters. Have a death. Put all characters in perile. And have the most unlikely hero/badguy switch
ever. Finally the Willow as BB and the Spike moving towards good arc started here!
For best
closure, comedy and quips? Graduation