June 2002 Archives

June 2002 posts

Previous June 2002

More June 2002

June 14, 2002 -- LadyStarlight, 06:13:36 06/14/02 Fri

Happy Anniversary Masq! (not leaving out the wonderful posters here...)

Thank you for putting together an incredible website and moderating the best posting board out there.

[> Happy Anniversary! -- Cactus Watcher, 06:19:59 06/14/02 Fri

Thanks Masq!

[> [> Re: Happy Anniversary! -- Brian, 06:36:02 06/14/02 Fri

Congratulations to the continuing creation of a subsection of the Buffyverse with: Two years of philosophical musings, cyber-chocolate goodness, kick-ass fiction, friendship and romance supported and survived, and trolls subdued. Way to Go, Masq et al!

[> [> [> 2 years and still going strong!! -- JCC, 08:17:27 06/14/02 Fri

The best board around has seen chocolate, cats, haikus, haircuts and a wedding. Happy Anniversary!!! And thanks Masq.

[> Woo Hoo!!!!! -- VampRiley, 06:35:34 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary! Rock on! -- neaux, 08:08:22 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary Card! -- LeeAnn, 08:25:01 06/14/02 Fri

From LeeAnn

[> [> Re:Nice one, LeeAnn! -- dubdub, 12:06:43 06/14/02 Fri

[> Woo woo! -- Rob, 08:31:35 06/14/02 Fri

[> Yay!!! Here's to many more! -- Deeva, 08:42:00 06/14/02 Fri

[> yeah! -- Masq, 09:06:05 06/14/02 Fri

One clarification note, it's the second anniversary of the posting board. The ATPoBtVS site is 3 1/2 years old.

And you guys are the ones who deserve the woo-hoos! and thanks. You make this board what it is!

[> Cheers for the host! and Huzzahs!!! for the Posts!! Many, many more! -- LittleBit, 09:12:38 06/14/02 Fri

[> They don't make angry mobs like they used to, 'cause this girl's still alive -- spotjon, 09:48:13 06/14/02 Fri

Wow, two whole years, and going strong! Congrats to Masquerade and all others involved! Heck, I remember the old days, before there even was a message board, and all we could do was listen to Masq's wisdom without the benefit of public dissent. But then she made the choice of opening up a message board so that we all could make fun of her theories:

Masquerade: Tremble!
BuffyFans: Who's a little philosopher? Come on! Who's a little philosopher!
Giles: Don't taunt the philosopher.
BuffyFans: Why, can she hurt me?
Giles: No, it's just tacky.

In any case, I expect this site to be alive and well for at least another two good years, and hopefully until Buffy, Angel and whatever other spin-offs come about are off the air. Even though I haven't been around for the last few months, I've kept up with the TV series a bit, and I'm still anxiously awaiting the next issue of Fray. If I ever get a television again, I may get back into the show, especially since this next one will probably be Buffy's last season.

What other television series could spawn this amount of speculation and philosphical/theological debates? If I had more time on my hands, it might inspire me to create my own fantasy series... dunno if I would have enough clout to make it into a TV series, though. Of all the TV shows out there, Buffy has got to be the best, despite its recent (unnecessarily?) dark meanderings this last year.

Here's to a great show, a great board, and a great hostess.

Further Up and Further In,
Jonathan
mcstuff.net

[> [> Hey, spotjon! Long time no see! -- Masq, overlooking the taunting : ), 09:54:09 06/14/02 Fri

[> hip hip hooray for masq and the board!! happy anniversary! -- julia, 09:53:43 06/14/02 Fri

[> Aloha e Kakou loa Masq, Hao'oli Piha Makahiki Hou a me Malama Pono!! -- redcat, 10:20:48 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary, with Thanks! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 10:45:05 06/14/02 Fri

A haven for cats, chocolate, and oh yes...Canadians!

;o)

[> [> Yes, you lucky people get to deal with Canadians all the time... -- Rufus, 22:06:57 06/14/02 Fri

But never fear, where there is a Canadian, there is chance they may have Canadian Chocolate....;) I'm keeping my cat, but you may worship, I mean get one of your own.

Happy Anniversary to all!

[> Happy Anniversary ATPoBtVS! -- MaeveRigan, 11:05:36 06/14/02 Fri

Although I mostly lurk, I can't get through a day without this board. Thanks for the deep thoughts, and for making BtVS and AtS even better.

[> [> I second that! -- DickBD, 13:13:41 06/14/02 Fri

That's the way I am, too. I don't often post, but I always have to check to see what everyone has to say. Great board!

[> Happy Anniversary, ATPoBtVS Posting Board! -- Belladonna, 12:21:59 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary! -- ravenhair, 13:55:13 06/14/02 Fri

Many thanks, Masq!

ATPoBtVS has added to my enjoyment of the show and I appreciate your dedication to the board/site.

[> YeeHaw! -- Arethusa, 14:12:58 06/14/02 Fri

Our traditional way of expressing glee, here in Texas.

[> Two years, and we *still* haven't run out of hot air! ;-) -- Humanitas, 16:16:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> ATPoBtVS 4 EVER! -- ponygirl, 16:20:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> yay! happy anniversary!!! -- anom, 17:15:48 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy, happy, joy, joy -- Rowan, 17:16:02 06/14/02 Fri

Happy anniversary!

[> Happiest of Anniversaries! Here's to many more! -- Ixchel, 18:33:50 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy! -- Dedalus, 19:47:07 06/14/02 Fri

[> Brava Masquerade! Congrats all. Salud! -- A8, 22:02:58 06/14/02 Fri

[> Said it before, and sayin' it again.. *There is no place like this place near this place, so... * -- OnM, 22:23:10 06/14/02 Fri

...this must be The Place!!

Congrats and big time thanks to Masquerade and all at ATPo for making this one of the most special places on the net!

There is no Buffy like Our Buffy...

:-)

:-)

:-)

[> New friends becoming old friends - here's to many more years together! -- Liq, 22:38:22 06/14/02 Fri

Gift Forshadowings - (Spoilers for The Gift & Season 6) -- Brian, 06:26:57 06/14/02 Fri

I've been musing from "The Gift" to "Grave," and have noticed that The Gift was just loaded with foreshadowings for Season Six. Here are the ones I found:

Spike: It's always about blood - Blood on Willow's shirt sets Willow off

Buffy: She's me - Dawn becomes a bitty Buffy by slaying a vamp & using a sword to help Buffy

Giles: Every other dimension imaginable - Buffy's back from Heaven

Buffy: I love you all, but I'm sorry - Buffy longs to return to Heaven

Xander: We could kill a regular guy - Willow kills Warren

Glory: just put my fist through her heart - All the heart imagery of Season 6

Giles: In this sorry world I do what other's can't - Giles' magic vs. Willow

Buffy: I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world - Buffy's whole Season 6 Depression

Buffy: I wish my mom was here - Joyce returns in Normal Again

Glory's Tower - Willow's resurrected temple

Willow: I'm not good under pressure - Dark Willow

Buffy: (to Willow) you're the strongest person here; you know that - Willow's power runs amuck

Willow: (to Tara) I'm going to bring you back - Confronting Osiris

Spike: (to Buffy) Presto, no barrier - Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike

Spike: (to Buffy) I know you'll never love me - Buffy's abuse of Spike

Doc: there's no smell of soul anywhere on you - The consequence of Spike's quest

Buffy finds her purpose and sacrifices herself for Dawn and the world at dawn- Buffy discovers her purpose as mentor and guide for Dawn at dawn

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it - All of Season 6

Historical Vampires, Slayers & Watchers... -- FriarTed, 07:56:02 06/14/02 Fri

In the BtVS movie novelization, Buffy asks if any famous historical people were vampires, to which the Watcher responds that Caligula & Jack the Ripper were... the same vampire.

Soooo anyone have any idea for other famous vampires? Not counting Vlad Drakula, Elizabeth Bathory or Nero.

Famous Slayers & Watchers?

Here's my suggestions: Joan of Arc, with her Watcher being
Gilles de Rais, who allied with the demons once she was martyred.

Mary Magdalene, with JC & then Joseph of Arimathea as her Watchers- as she traveled thru Europe into the British Isles with the Grail *G*

[> Rasputin -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:35:27 06/14/02 Fri

I bet that, in the Buffyverse, Rasputin was a vampire. Think about it, his assassins couldn't kill him despite poison, bullets, beatings, stabbings, and drowning. Of course, none of these things would kill a vampire. Plus, it was hinted at in Season Five.

Jesus was a vampire. That's why the cross hurts them: one of their biggest leaders ever was crucified on one (okay, maybe the Romans or Pharisees cast a spell on them, but it does make sense when you think about it).

I'm pegging Dr. Van Helsing (from Dracula) as a Watcher. He has the right feel to him.

Finally, my guess as to a historical Slayer:
Atlanta, a Greek heroine who was an expert hunter (quite possibly hunting demons in her spare time).

[> [> MORE!!! -- FriarTed, 10:40:12 06/14/02 Fri

Van Helsing- definitely a Watcher. Mina perhaps to become a Slayer?

Rasputin & the Prussian Generals & Charlotte Corday were all mentioned by Buffy in connection with her college studies.

A boot to the head for the Jesus comment *L*

C'mon! Any more?

[> [> [> Have you heard about the district of Dracula -- JCC, 12:18:10 06/14/02 Fri

This is actually true. A descendant of Vlad Tepes from Germany has set up his own country called Dracula. It costs $50 to become a citizen. He's angry that the tourism big wigs in Germany aren't turning Vlad's (German) castle in into a tourist attraction. Lets all go move in and become Draculians. :)

[> [> [> [> Draculites? Draconians? Draconistas?hehehe -- Arethusa, 14:09:06 06/14/02 Fri

[> Re: Historical Vampires, Slayers & Watchers... -- O'Cailleagh, 13:07:52 06/14/02 Fri

Maid Marian could have been a Slayer, with the Merry Men her Scooby Gang. Perhaps Robin was her Watcher?
Another possibility would be Aradia, the 14th century Italian Witch, who was a bit of a Joan of Arc/Robin Hood/Jesus figure.

Final Haiku Listing (all) -- LittleBit, 09:39:19 06/14/02 Fri

Here is a listing of the haikus that were included in the game (on board and in chat); if I missed any, or have the wrong episode, I apologize!!

Haiku Game: hiatus is here / episode summary game / poems like sneezes - LittleBit
ATPo board: Keyboard life as if / Philosophy were raindrops / Electronic id - OnM

Season 1

Welcome to the Hellmouth: New world, but no escape. / New friends so stunned they must gape. / One dies with pierced nape. - Brian
The Harvest: Deep, dark, ancient lair. / Stirs one to rise, so very rare. / Stopped by Buffy's flair. - Brian
The Witch: Go orange Buffy ! / Appearance is deceiving / Evil is older - Ete (1st possibility)
I Robot, You Jane: a scary amount of computer sessions / could this lead to their possession? / (for me this ep's a big obsession!) - O'Cailleagh
Nightmares: Birthdays are no fun. / Except for the chocolatey / Goodness. That can stay! - Rob
Prophecy Girl: the Hellmouth opens / who will be the master now / death is not the end - LittleBit

Season 2

School Hard: The Jedi Master / has failed in his ruse, but at / least the boy is safe. - Rob; Thursday, say welcome / Friday, hide and seek but on / saturday, nothing left! - Ete
Inca Mummy Girl: eternal unlife / senses remain unhindered / restored with a kiss - LittleBit
Halloween: ev'rything's switching / someone's come to change it all / outside to inside - LittleBit; Darkness lurks beneath; / Uncharacteristically / Dressed; undead but not. - Rob
Lie To Me: Wouldn't threaten her / were she a lonely one / yet she asks for it - Ete; A flock waits for its / saviors, welcoming them in. / Anne Rice would be proud - Rob
What's My Line part 2: Knife through father's hand/that should do the trick for her/ my dark angel love - Ronia; Balance has shifted/ Now I am the strong one who'll / nurse you back to health - Rob
Ted: Too good to be true. / Won't stand for that malarkey. / Putt putt, anyone? - GreatRewards
Bad Eggs: Sulfer smell makes a stink. / Scrambled friends betray, can't think. / Buffy axes the offending link. - Brian
I Only Have Eyes For You: eternally bound / love and guilt will hold us close / reversal frees us - LittleBit
Go Fish: we are the champions / this is not a children's game / freedom is now ours - LittleBit
Becoming Part 1: Run fast little girl / He has been a red herring / Late! They are fallen - Ronia
Becoming Part 2: that which was is now / strength is forged in pain and grief / the burden too great - LittleBit; The fight is won, but / a heart's split in twain. Alas, / no hugs and puppies! - Rob

Season 3

Anne: No one takes the blame; / Life is hard, broken, and lame. / Buffy speaks her name. - Brian
Beauty and the Beasts: containing the rage / this is not a fairy tale / soothe the savage breast - LittleBit
Band Candy: This sorceror may / fulfill your wish of / Being young again - Ete
Revelations: power in clothing / power in meditation / power in friendships - LittleBit; Secrets and shadows, / Vamp and Watcher want the hand / which one should she trust ? - Ete; the sky is falling / another apocalypse / tuesday chez buffy - Julia
Lover's Walk: Magic to break or / Magic to bring together / - Heartbreak free for all - Ete
Amends: Miraculous dark! / You stand here triumphant, as / the night breathes its last - Rob
Helpless: Come take you nasty / medication; you'll feel all / better! Down the hatch - Rob; In the big house / Mummy is receiving a guest / who's very hungry - Ete
The Zeppo: Scoobies save the world. / Xander saves the Scooby Gang. / "I Like the quiet." - GreatRewards
Consequences: too much to cope with / if not truth then the other / betrays my calling
Dopplegangland: Vamp Willow took charge / Gang did terrorize the Bronze / Willow said "Bored now." - GreatRewards
Enemies: Blood over the shirt / Who's better at pretending / Games of chains and mind - Ete; Betraying Slayer, / a dark shroud lights the mansion, / a fake evil vamp. - JCC
Choices: Willow asks of Buffy: / "Of the two people here, which / is the boss of me?" - GreatRewards
The Prom: One perfect moment, / ruined by caring too much, / It was not too late - JCC; Formal Frenzy bad. / Scoobies try to go cool rad. / Now is Buffy glad. - Brian
Graduation part 2: Snake eats the weasel / Darkness and chaos prevail / Fire cleanses the scene - collinwood

Season 4

The Freshman: the new horizon / challenges and adventure / fear paralyzes - LittleBit
Fear Itself: Trapped in a nightmare / Of sheer fluffy white terror. / Translate the caption - Rob
Wild at Heart: primitive urges / primal desires unbound / run their course through them - LittleBit
Something Blue: Bicker like children / Grieve over the one who left her / Unexpected love looms - Deeva
Hush: deafening silence / that is the heart of it all / unaccustomed sound - LittleBit; Pretty songs can lead / To Hell. Once they're over, the / Darkness captures all. - Rob
Doomed: Who are you really / Bogeyman for little bads / Diving for the word - Deeva
A New Man: Look into my eyes / and if I taugh you well / know what is my name - Ete
This Year's Girl: Face to face meeting / with one long forgotten / leads to change of name - Ete
Who Are You?: Feeling out of place, / staring at the mirror, but / no recognition. - Rob
Where The Wild Things Are: Buffy getting laid / House tries to kill Buffy's friends / Buff can't get enough! - GreatRewards
Primeval: Four becoming one. / Power beyond all power. / 'First' man is now dead. - GreatRewards
Restless: Not to wake nor sleep, / A friend from another time, / or an enemy. - JCC; A diffrent slayer. / Out of history's cold dead past. / Wreaks havoc to feel. - cat

Season 5

The Replacement: Do my eyes deceive / me with double-vision or / is it true? But how? - Rob
Out Of My Mind: to die or not to / if it's not i only want / to kiss you - oh no! - Ete
No Place Like Home: A blond mystery, / Revelations close to home, / To protect the one. - JCC; black leather coat swirls / cigarette cherry glows bright /out for a walk bitch - julia
Family: Do not see me / For I am ugly they say / But you saw me truly - Ete
Fool For Love: Three are the loves / Two are the keys to fame / One burns bright - Deeva
Triangle: Childhood love, new love / No one let's her finish / Stop hammering please - Deeva
Checkpoint: Question and answer / A directorate challenged / Loath assent given - Deeva
Crush: Dark bound in tribute / Wickedness lands in the depot / Light bound for amour - Deeva; A fallen big bad, / who is in love with his flame, / joins to drive sire mad. - JCC; Nummy treats to choose / from, a vampire's buffet! Blonde, / Brunette...all tasty! - Rob; To choose between / One blind of insight and / One blind of mind - Ete
Tough Love: Leperous hobbits serve / Mimosas in the tub / To a skanky goddess - Collinwood; Searing pain courses / through innocent hands. Only / a shell remains now. - Rob
Spiral: ancient enemies / bound by eternal conflict / destinies converge - LittleBit
The Weight of the World: safety lies within / the corridors of the past / 'tis but fantasy - LittleBit; Little Miss Muffet's / Breaths are silenced again and / Again; again and... - Rob
The Gift: buffy the hero / died so the world could have dawn / but the sun still sets - LittleBit; Parting at the steps / At the heartfelt confession / Leap of love and trust - Deeva

Season 6

After Life: Hands held reverence / Consequences uttered first / Existing and not - Deeva
Life Serial: Four tries for nothing / everyone think they know her / better than herself - Ete; Temporarily, / her sorrow's gone, except for / the horrible taste... - Rob
Tabula Rasa: Kiss beneath the stairs / Why is this happening now? / Who am I to her? - collinwood
Gone: Cleansing the abode / Shiny piece of temptation / Soon to melt away - Deeva
Doublemeat Palace: Go orange Buffy ! / Appearance is deceiving / Evil is older - Ete (2nd answer)
As You Were: One stinky slayer / Out damn grass stain! Out I say! / Can they be perfect? - Deeva
Hell's Bells: Illusions of light / shattered, dreams of happiness / slip through their fingers. - Rob
Normal Again: feeling down and out, / chasing when you get a poke, / into a new world. - JCC
Entropy: A human demon, / changed in a horrible time, / abandoned and found. - JCC (also Hell's Bells); spike is so cool and / i mean the girl is hot too / andrew butt monkey - Julia
Villains: fear grips my soul, for / just one look, and I knew the / countdown had begun - Rob
Two To Go: willow flayed warren / she's off the wagon again / bad willow bad witch - Julia

Angel the Series

Room with a View: Cordy's moving woes / Not Diet / "You got peanut butter on the sheets." - Isabel
I Fall to Pieces: More by each he stalks; / With bedroom eyes, still he mocks; / Angel beats the flock. - Brian
Lullaby: Lock of binding love / Blessed by actions from above / Brings forth hawk or dove - Brian

[> Cool, LB! I was thinking of compiling them myself! Glad you beat me to it. ;o) -- Rob, 10:09:39 06/14/02 Fri

[> Re: Nice work, LB - Many Thanks -- Brian, 10:17:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> Thanks for doing that LB! -- Deeva, 10:31:27 06/14/02 Fri

I slipped this one in somewhere in the gigantic thread :

Dead Things
Nothing is wrong / Controlled by another / What I have become

Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) -- Kuroshiro, 10:38:59 06/14/02 Fri

Hello all - been lurking here for quite a while now, finally decided to come out and play! Apologies if this re-treads old ground - I'm watching from Ireland so Angel just ended here last night, and I haven't had time to troll through all the archives just yet to see if there's a similar thread.

Ok, it seems to me that Tomorrow leaves us with a very obvious heaven/hell counterpoint, intercutting between Cordelia ascending into heaven (or at least into the heavens) in a blaze of light, wearing a (faintly un-Cordeliaesque) white robe and sandals, and Angel sinking into the depths of the ocean, dressed entirely in black (not quite so much new there, then).

Each is judged by an outside party, albeit one who doesn't necessarily know all the facts. Conor condemns Angel to what would be the biblical (and therefore presumably also Holtz's) interpretation of hell; the suffering of eternal torment. In this decision he oversteps even the role of executioner and starts, almost literally, playing God.

Similarly, Skip informs Cordelia that she is 'ready' to go, even though she does not think so herself. His assertion that she is a higher being she finds 'ridiculous', but ultimately his decision wins out. Higher being she may be, but she can't control her own destiny. In the end, we're presented with a white-clad Cordelia rising, a black-clad Angel falling - and where's Wesley, last time we saw him? Flat on his back, naked. Trapped in Limbo.

There's been a lot of discussion of Wes, post-Forgiving, turning to the dark side or becoming evil. At this point, though, what has he done that could be classified as truly evil? The strongest evidence is his initial refusal to help Gunn in The Price, but even then he offers first the justification that "Angel will figure out a way to kill (the Sluks) eventually", and then relents pretty quickly when he learns Fred is dying. Otherwise, there is his moment of hesitation about Justine, and his treatment of Lilah last night - grabbing her neck and telling her "I wasn't thinking about you when you were here" are pretty harsh all right, but then we are dealing with a woman who enquires breezily if someone who's just had their throat slit needs a lozenge. I'm thinking she can take the harsh.

Wesley has the potential for salvation or slaughter like anyone else, but it really doesn't seem like he's chosen yet. For weeks he's been in physical as well as emotional stasis; immobile in a hospital bed, hiding in his flat, drinking alone in bars - for all that he is full of 'rage, frustration and hate' he only acts on that when action is forced upon him by the intrusion of others, such as Lilah and Gunn. Even then, his actions don't make a huge amount of difference to his mental state; rejecting AI hasn't changed how he feels, and neither has sleeping with Lilah. For a while there it seemed Wes's journey was directly paralleling Angel's after 'The Trial'; both worked to avoid the damnation of another, only to see Darla's and Conor's fates snatched out of their hands; then came episodes where neither one spoke a word, followed by an extended 'beige' period and sex with a sworn enemy. But while Angel's sleeping with Darla altered his entire world view, Wesley's sleeping with Lilah has left him right back where he started. Before, in the bar, he tells her "I think you should leave now"; and after, in bed, he tells her to "get out". And finally he's left alone, staring up at the ceiling again, just as he was back in Forgiving and Double or Nothing.

Wesley was judged by others long before Angel and Cordelia; his friends' refusal to listen to him condemned him to this state of suspension, no longer actively fighting the battle against evil, but not yet promoting it either. His position in the finale is not made quite as explicit as that of his former friends, but it is just as fixed - he is the missing horizontal between their two verticals. So if the three people in Cordy's photograph are ever to be reunited, there's going to be a serious struggle involved to free all of them. After all, Angel's already escaped from hell once, but how is Wesley ever to get out of Limbo? Any thoughts?

[> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) -- Masq, 10:52:08 06/14/02 Fri

"Wesley's sleeping with Lilah has left him right back where he started."

I disagree. For all his apparent indifference and hostility, I don't think Wesley came out of sex with Lilah unscathed. Because I don't think he went into it unscathed. Lilah may be an attractive woman, but she is one scary bitch and Wesley from six months ago would not have become intimate with her no matter how good she looks.

The fact that Wesley slept with her is a sign he is losing his connection with the things he valued so dearly a few months ago. He's falling into a "who cares, what does it matter what I do?" state of mind. Depression, apathy.

The only way for him to get out of it is to have a really big wake-up call. Something larger than Fred's-life-is-in-danger. Don't know what it will be, but can't wait to find out. You know, after watching the Wesley-sinking-into-the-pit (out of limbo and into the hornet's nest) fun.

[> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) and future guesses -- Arethusa, 11:22:04 06/14/02 Fri

Wesley is making a descent typical of the noir protagonist, and he should have a great deal farther to fall. (Not at the bottom level of Hell yet.) After the noir antihero is cast out from or leaves his family and the rest of society, he descends into a world of "crime, corruption, and cruelty." Often he is dragged down by a woman, a femme fatale, who tries to lead him to a life of degredation, or death. His moral code erodes as his comromises with the enemy blur the lines between good and evil. He is isolated, despairing, and full of hopelessness. After he hits rock bottom, usually he and the femme kill each other.

Probably Wes will bcome involved more with Lilah's W&H plans. I doubt Wes will die, but in noir the bad woman virtually always dies at the end, and it would certainly shock Wes out of his depression if Lilah dies because of his actions. And we all know how ME loves to kill off regulars.

Personal aside: I'm writing a paper on noir and "Angel." Anyone want to read it?

[> [> Post it! -- Masq, 11:45:36 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Put me & MM down for that one! Noir, wheeeoo! -- SingedCat, 12:15:06 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) and future guesses -- LeeAnn, 12:43:16 06/14/02 Fri

I think he's going into W&H as a mole, as a spy to try and help Angel and thus redeem himself. I don't think he's turned to the darkside at all.

Maybe if he wasn't so cute I could think worse of him.

[> Stephanie Romanov/Alexis Denisof in the remake of "Double Indemnity"... -- cjl, 12:11:20 06/14/02 Fri

With Andy Hallett in the Edward G. Robinson role.

Ms. Romanov does fit the profile of the film noir femme fatale (Barbara Stanwyck, Mary Astor), and she's certainly got the look. Arethusa, post your paper, post-haste!

SMG on Howard Stern -- Hoping, 11:01:59 06/14/02 Fri

Did anyone catch it? must have been interesting.

[> Re: SMG on Howard Stern -- MaeveRigan, 11:07:58 06/14/02 Fri

Not even SMG could make me endure Howard Stern. But I salute her for facing someone whose persona is a real live monster. Buffy would be proud. I hope she slew him.

[> [> I heard it...and she was well up to the task. -- Rob, 11:12:45 06/14/02 Fri

She was very polite, funny, sweet...and would not let Howard or Robin talk her into airing any dirty laundry about certain unnamed soap opera queens...

I don't usually listen to Howard Stern, but this week my friend's been driving me to work, and he listens...so, this week, I listen. Last week, Howard was making fun of her, basically taunting her to come on the show. And she did. So I'm proud of her for that.

And, yes, she kicked butt!

Rob

[> [> [> Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- MayaPapaya9, 11:18:58 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Darby, 11:29:12 06/14/02 Fri

Here are a couple of links sites that might hook you up...

http://www.animaux.net/stern/

http://www.angelfire.com/on/howardstern/links.html

The list here is just disturbingly huge...

Howard is a Buffy fan, and SMG, AH and ED have appeared on his tv show in the past (ah, the wonders of late night impatience and remote control...). I've noticed that he tends to not ask the Jules Asner-type questions...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Rob, 11:34:14 06/14/02 Fri

Howard asked her about her religion, and about the Susan Lucci-ness.

And she did not answer.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Rob, 11:35:38 06/14/02 Fri

Make that, she answered, but was very discreet...and vague.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Religion -- DickBD, 12:53:09 06/14/02 Fri

I like the Buffy character so much that I am a little hesitant to learn too much about the actress that plays her. Obviously, she can't live up to Buffy. Still, it would be nice to think she is nearly as nice a person. As long-time atheist, I would prefer to think that she is not religious--but I'll settle for just Joss Whedon if I have to!

I read here, I think, that SMG wears a cross and that she seems to be religious. I console myself with the idea that the cross may just be part of the Buffy image. Even if she were not religious, it would be discreet of her to be vague about it for the sake of her popularity as an actress.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion -- Hellraiser, 13:05:02 06/14/02 Fri

*As long-time atheist, I would prefer to think that she is not religious--but I'll settle for just Joss Whedon if I have to!
I read here, I think, that SMG wears a cross and that she seems to be religious. I console myself with the idea that the cross may just be part of the Buffy image. Even if she were not religious, it would be discreet of her to be vague about it for the sake of her popularity as an actress.*

Hey Dick, get real...you "console yourself" to the hope that there are others who restrain themselves to the eventuality of the dust with no hope or belief in something more. Good luck to you.....you need it!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dissing Someone's religious Beliefs, Thats uncalled for -- Dochawk, 13:35:00 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dissing Someone's religious Beliefs, Thats uncalled for -- Hellraiser, 07:43:51 06/15/02 Sat

Can't Diss what one does not have....Dick said he was atheist, which means he has no belief except in the fact his ancestry involves amoebas.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There was no excuse for your original post and none for this response. -- Sophist, 16:16:44 06/15/02 Sat

The original post was not directed at you or anyone else. It was a form of musing aloud. It attacked no one; no different than if he'd said "I wish SMG would acknowledge her Jewish heritage." If you don't agree, just ignore his musing and move on.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Sophist. You said it better than I would have. -- redcat, 16:30:16 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm a Christian and I believe my ancestors were amoebas -- Apophis, 20:58:10 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion -- Maroon Lagoon, 17:34:48 06/14/02 Fri

Crosses don't necessarily mean anything. Haven't you heard? The latest fashion trend is to wear crosses just as jewelry, not statements of faith. I think people have been doing this for years, but now the Vatican is complaining about celebrities that do it.

Google informs me that on the Howard Stern show, SMG states that she doesn't believe in organized religion and never has.

Anyway, there's no real correlation between being religious and being a nice person. So many millions are religious that it covers a broad spectrum of every conceivable personality type. I'm an atheist too, but if you confine people you admire to just atheists, you're gonna have sliiiiim pickins!

From what I've seen of her public appearances, she seems pretty nice to me (did you see her 2000 episode of Fanatic?). I take rumors of bitchiness with a barrel of salt.

BTW, I enjoyed Buffy's line, "People used to bow down to gods. Things change."

p.s.: None of the cast members' religious views could affect my enjoyment of their characters, but it should be noted just for the record that Amy Acker worships, well, me. She has stated on numerous occasions that I'm like a god to her. You may make of that what you will.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Organized Religion -- Apophis, 18:10:19 06/14/02 Fri

This is off topic, but what does "organized religion" mean? Is it religion in general or is it religions with dogmas (dogmae?), leaders, prayers, etc.? For example, if one were to say that he places no stock in organized religion, does that make him an atheist or does he simply hold personal beliefs that aren't affected by institutions?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- Maroon Lagoon, 21:29:05 06/14/02 Fri

"Does he simply hold personal beliefs that aren't
affected by institutions?" Yes. Doesn't have anything to do with atheism.

There's not necessarily an official demarcation between organized or not, but basically, if you say, "I subscribe to religion X," that's all it takes to be part of organized religion. It could be characterized by, for example, going to church, having a specific set of beliefs, one or more holy texts, a set of typical rituals to perform/songs to sing, being led by a pastor/minister/whatever, having a sense of community with other believers. Although, if somebody believes in all/most/some of the tenets of Christianity, thinks of himself as Christian and just doesn't go to church, but stays home on Sundays and prays by himself, I'd still call that being part of the organized religion of Christianity. But some people have a different usage of the term and would say the above person isn't into organized religion even though, for all practical purposes, he's a Christian. I would guess that some who might as well be Christians don't like the real or perceived rigidity, dogmatism, hypocracy, judgmentalness, exclusiveness, etc., that might be associated with certain church groups (relax, I know each church is different and I think this kind is in the minority). For Example, Ted Koppel hosted a town hall meeting recently and one audience member said he didn't want to allow sinners (homosexuals) into his church. Koppel replied, doesn't the Bible say we're all sinners? Why should you be allowed in your own church?
And others who have no animosity towards any church group simply don't feel like their personal convictions are represented by any denomination (e.g., some believe in Jesus, but they think he'll return on a UFO), or they don't feel a need for, as Bill Maher often says, "middlemen between them and God."

So I'd say all religion is organized. If your main personal beliefs don't mesh with any existing religion and you pray/meditate/whatever by yourself in way that's not in line with any particular tradition, then you could call yourself spiritual, but not religious.

I don't know if this is a longer reply than what you were looking for. Arf, Arf! Me so knowrigable!

Sincerely,
Maroon Lagoon, Expert on Things

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- O'Cailleagh, 23:36:59 06/14/02 Fri

Organised religion is any religion that has an organisation behind it. Thus, Christianity (for example) is an organised religion as it has the Church (a politically-minded organisation). There are several religions that are not organised and do not have a 'governing body'-this does not reduce their religiousness (IMO, it increases it).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- Hellraiser, 08:06:36 06/15/02 Sat

**Thus, Christianity (for example) is an organised religion as it has the Church (a politically-minded organisation)**
I disagree with your basic tenet: Christianity is a belief system of a FAITH(that of the blood on the cross given by the Son of the ONE TRUE GOD - YAHWEH) by which religions and their churches are based(as it is with other FAITHS). That is why there are so many religions..factions develop due to interpretations(usually selfish in nature) of the belief system. Because of this, one can be spiritual(within the FAITH) without being religious.

[> [> [> [> [> CC has appeared also, I downloaded her interview off of scour when it was around -- JBone, 16:40:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> You can find an mp3 on the SMG newsgroups -- grifter, 14:40:29 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: You can find an mp3 on the SMG newsgroups - I tried Unsuccessfully -- Hoping, 17:42:23 06/14/02 Fri

S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part I(long!spoilers to Grave) -- shadowkat, 11:02:46 06/14/02 Fri

Spike/Willow Journey - Buffy and OZ, Taming and Reconciling the Monstrous Id
(Spoilers to Grave. Quotes from Psyche Transcripts and Encarta Encyclopedia.)

"These are the things we want. Simple things. Comfort, sex, shelter, food. We always want them and we want them all the time. The id doesn't learn it doesn't grow up. It has the ego telling it what it can't have and it has the superego telling it what it should want. But the id works solely out of the pleasure principle. It wants. Whatever social skills you've learned, however much we've evolved, the pleasure principal is at work in all of us. So, how does this conflict with the ego manifest itself in the psyche? What do we do when we can't have what we want?" (Professor Walsh, Beer Bad, Season 4, Btvs.)

Definitions taken from Encarta Encyclopedia (http://encarta.msn.com) - this is how I'm interpreting the terms as discussed in the above quote:

1. The "id": sexual and aggressive tendencies that arise from the body, as distinguished from the mind. These inherent drives claim immediate satisfaction, which is experienced as pleasurable.

2. The "ego": domain of such functions as perception, thinking, motor control that can accurately assess environmental conditions. The ego must be capable of enforcing the postponement of satisfaction of the instinctual impulses originating in the id. To defend itself against unacceptable impulses, the ego develops specific psychic defense mechanisms = repression, the exclusion of impulses from conscious awareness; projection, the process of ascribing to others one's own unacknowledged desires; and reaction formation, the establishment of a pattern of behavior directly opposed to a strong unconscious need.

3. The "super-ego": controls the ego and the id in accordance with the internalized standards of parental figures and by extension society. If the demands are not fulfilled, we may feel guilt or shame. Morals and values are often formed in the super-ego. (for more information - check out Encarta encyclopedia.)

The Beast or the primal impulse. The Want, Take, Have, forget the consequences aspect of our psyche. The dark id. It has many names. Some equate it with the animal, the reptile that we all evolved from. Others equate it with the subconscious, that murky part of the human soul, which we are afraid to look at too closely except of course when we dream or create.

The idea of the id as a beast residing just beneath the surface of our psyche has been explored by numerous novelists, comic books, movies, and artists. In the comic book Spiderman - the villain the Green Goblin is the epitome of a man losing control over his beast. Industrial scientist Norman Osborn, who is on the verge of losing an important government contract, drinks a dangerous potion that unleashes all his angry primal impulses turning him into a homicidal maniac, the beast. In the movie version - we see Norman battling The Goblin persona in the mirror. Back and forth he switches from kind, frightened, and desperate Norman to wicked, ambitious, cruel Goblin. One is the nerdy scientist that identifies with nerdy Peter Parker (aka Spiderman) and the other is the wicked villain who tries to destroy Spiderman's life. Robert Louis Stevenson wrote a similar story over a century ago in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - versions of which have appeared on Broadway, the Bugs Bunny Show, and in several movies, the best, a 1930s classic, starring Spencer Tracy. So the idea is not a new one, actually it is very old and very much part of our collective psyche. The stories that get retold tend to be the ones that we can't figure out or resolve. They obsess us, live inside us, take on a life of their own and through us live inside the consciousness of our society and our art. Remember one of the greatest heroes of Greek myths - Hercules, went insane and killed his family. Often the hero finds himself flipping to the dark side, struggling to reconcile himself with the beast that resides within him. The current hit at the box office - Star Wars Episode II: Attack of The Clones deals with this very theme: a hero who is slowly becoming one of the greatest movie villains of all time, Darth Vader. As Joseph Campbell indicates in his series Masks of the Gods - we create myths, building new ones on the foundation of the old, and set our beliefs, our behaviors and our rules by them.

BTvs similarly explores the struggle between humans and their internal beasts with a mix of mythos, metaphor and real world allegory. Here they use age-old fairy tale images - the werewolf, the vampire, the mystically endowed slayer, and the witch.

I. OZ and Spike: the werewolf and the vampire

Werewolves and vampires have been around in oral legends, myths, and folktales for centuries. The Werewolf legend originated in Germany around 1591, concerning the horrible atrocities of a man named Peter Stubbe, who was known to take on the aspects of a wolf when he committed them. His atrocities were beyond human experience (think Hannibal Lector mixed with Charles Manson). So as his story spread throughout Germany , people linked the atrocities with the behavior of a wolf. Believing it was the beast within the man who did this - the shadow of the wolf. (taken from http://members.tripod.com). The vampire first emerged from the Jewish legend of Lilith and Cain. According to this ancient pre-AD legend - Cain, first born of Adam and Eve, found Lilith who showed him the power of blood and turned Cain into the first vampire. Cain is referenced as the creator of monsters or first wicked man in Beowulf. (taken from www.angelfire.com/tn/vampires/step3.html ) Both, at least in the Buffyverse share this particular trait: No conscience, predatory and aggressive.

Giles: Y-you see, uh, the-the werewolf, uh, is such a, a potent e-e-extreme representation of our inborn animalistic traits that it e-emerges for three full consecutive nights: the full moon and, uh, the two nights surrounding it. And it, uh, acts on-on pure instinct. No conscience, uh, uh, predatory and, and aggressive. (Phases, Season 2)

Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. (Angel, Season 1)

In both myths the person usually becomes a werewolf or a vampire via an infection - such as a bite. In Buffyverse - the infection or bite does not appear to be by choice. Oz gets infected by his cousin and doesn't know he's a werewolf until odd things start happening. (Phases, Season 2, Btvs). Spike is bitten and sucks the blood of Drusilla - becoming a vampire. Giles describes this as the spreading of an infection in Harvest (Season 1, Btvs): "The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul." The human, William is not considered responsible for the monster he becomes any more than OZ appears to be culpable for what he does while a werewolf. As Giles states in Phases: "No matter who this werewolf is, i-it's still a human being, who may be completely unaware of his or her condition." Or at least at first this appears to be the case. Later in Season 4, OZ actually begins to take responsibility for what he does as a werewolf. And the acts he commits while a werewolf in Season 4 Btvs are remarkably similar to Spike's acts at the end of Season 6.

In Wild at Heart, Season 4 Btvs, OZ meets a woman who relishes the monster inside her. Veruca. Veruca is a little like Willow in Season 6. She loves the power or the primal energy that the wolf gives her. "The animal. And it's powerful... Inside me all the time. Soon you'll feel sorry for other people. They only wish they could be as alive as we are. As free-" (Veruca, Wild at Heart) She remembers what happens and lets the wolf out. She encourages OZ to do the same. She encourages him to accept the beast inside him, to drink in its power, to reconcile himself with it. Instead of being so focused in controlling it. (Reminds me a little of Spike in Season 6 with Buffy - encouraging her to retreat into the dark with him. To enjoy being the animal. "I've never been with such a bloody animal." Or "you belong in the dark, with me." Dead Things.) Worried about Veruca's safety and the safety of others, OZ convinces her to spend the night with him in his cage. She scolds OZ for letting himself be domesticated. Just as they are turning they fall into each other's arms and make wild passionate animal love. The next morning - Willow discovers their naked bodies entwined in OZ's cage and freaks.

Very similar to Anya and Spike's coupling in Entropy (Season 6). Except Anya and Spike are seeking comfort and the sex is really passionless. What is similar - is once again we have two people with beasts inside them, unleashing those primal tendencies for a moment of comfort and solace. Spike comes to the magic box to numb his pain. He is, to his credit, struggling to control the negative impulses raging inside him. Just as Oz is to his credit struggling to control the beast inside himself. Except Spike is the beast all the time, it's the man who's been let of the cage by the chip. OZ is the man most of the time, it's the beast that that the moon and his anger lets out of the cage. Both have a human visage, both see themselves as men, but are they, really? Spike begins to think of himself as more of a man than a monster at the end of Season 5 and most of Season 6, it's really not until his attack on Buffy - that he realizes he's really just a caged monster not a man. OZ is the same way - he sees himself as the regular guy and only a wolf when the moon comes out, it's not until he kills Veruca and almost kills Willow, that he realizes the wolf is in him all the time, slowly taking control.

Until very recently, Spike like Veruca, didn't mind the beast and didn't see a need to control it. Now, in Entropy and Seeing Red, he's in pain and the beast is screaming for comfort. As Professor Walsh states in the beginning of Beer Bad: "The id doesn't learn it doesn't grow up. It has the ego telling it what it can't have and it has the superego telling it what it should want. But the id works solely out of the pleasure principle. It wants�" A soulless vampire in Btvs appears to be the id without negative restraints. Just as a werewolf in its wolf form is the id predominant. If we define the soul as the ego and super-ego converged - the part of us that tells us what we can't have or shouldn't have and what we "should", not necessarily "want" to, strive for, what happens when the ego and/or super-ego are removed or submerged beneath the id? If submerged, we have the wild werewolf or beer bad cave Buffy. If removed? We have Spike sans chip. The chip provides a pseudo-ego or leash for the id. What it can't provide is the morality or "should strive for" motivational structure of the super-ego, for that you must have a soul. Once all three are present, you can choose to obey the super-ego, the id, or the ego. The choices we make, Professor Walsh states have a lot to do with the social manners that we are taught - the nurture over nature view, but without the super-ego or ego, the id is in control, alone it cannot interpret or incorporate these societal values. The id, Professor Walsh states, can't learn or grow up like a vampire - arrested in adolescence. Only the super-ego and ego can do that. The id in its purest form is the take, want, have reflex that we see portrayed in Spike - who up until now is the id leashed by the ego struggling to get what it wants made real. OZ's struggle is the id struggling for dominance over the superego and every twenty-eight days it succeeds.

Spike's little indiscretion in Entropy causes pain just as OZ's. Spike's id is hunting comfort and being a demon without a soul, his id is more or less in control so he has no choice but to gratify it. Of course his comfort is short lived and does not really give him what he wants. All it does is intensify his pain. The same problem occurs for OZ when he rewards the id by sleeping with Veruca. His motives are less opportunistic than Spike's - since he wants to keep Veruca from hurting anyone - by getting her to share his cage for the night. Of course OZ has the ego and super-ego giving him instructions. So from OZ's point of view - the id, ego, and super-ego what they want when he sleeps with Veruca - the id gets wild passionate unbridled sex, the ego gets to keep the id in a cage, the super-ego gets to save lives. Unfortunately Willow finds them and everyone gets hurt. The difference is OZ has a soul - the embodiment of the ego and superego. The other difference is Willow can and does love OZ, partly because he does have a soul. Buffy has broken up with and made clear to Spike that she cannot love him, because Spike does not have a soul. As pure id braced with an ego chip to control violent impulses - Spike can be a lot of fun to be with, she can let her own "id" take over, but he is not good for her super-ego, and Buffy needs someone with the whole package. It's the difference between being with someone who comforts and turns you on physically and someone who is good to you and enriches you emotionally and mentally as you enrich them.

It's hard to feel too sympathetic towards Buffy in Entropy. She did after all advise Spike to move on. Willow - your heart breaks for, because OZ's indiscretion came completely from left field. The difference between Willow and Buffy - is Willow relishes the primal, the id. Buffy is afraid of it - considering what she went through with Angel/Angelus almost killing all her friends - this makes sense. Willow doesn't really see the need to control her own - although she does help to control OZ's. She believes they can control it, together. That it only requires a cage, like the one she puts ratted Amy in. She does not really see the danger. Buffy, however, does. Buffy knows she can't trust Spike as long as his beast can break free at any time. She knows he's a time bomb. And what's more she knows that the chip is the only thing holding him back. Not her. Willow ignores this with OZ until he literally thrusts it in her face.

Both men end up attacking the women they love. And they both do it soon after their indiscretion. OZ in Wild at Heart, goes to save Willow from Veruca, in wolf form kills Veruca and almost attacks and kills Willow. In Oz's case the super-ego and ego gave into the id to protect Willow from Veruca - but once in pure "id" form - he lost control. Just as Dr. Jekyll loses control when he turns into Mr. Hyde or Norman Osborn loses control when he gives into the Green Goblin. Buffy pulls OZ away from Willow in the nick of time. Spike intends to just apologize to Buffy but the demonic id breaks free of the ego's restraints and things go horribly awry. He attacks her, almost raping her. And unlike Willow in Wild at Heart - Buffy is in a weakened state, vulnerable. So when Spike's demon "id" breaks loose, the results are ugly. Up until recently the chip leashed the negative impulses of the id. But now Spike can hurt Buffy. His negative impulses are no longer leashed when it comes to her. Something they both forgot. For the first time in two years - Spike loses control. The id rears its ugly head - making Buffy's fears a reality. Fears that were earlier put into words by Xander - "But I never forgot what he really is�. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just a leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working?" (Seeing Red) It's been so long since Spike was actually able to hurt Buffy that they both forgot he could now that the chip no longer operates when it comes to her. Ironic, since of all the characters - Buffy is the one Spike really doesn't want to hurt. Last summer, after she died, for 147 days, he thought of ways to save her. Spike believed he'd always keep his promise to her. That he could control the beast. That "he" would never hurt her. Turns out he was wrong. The demonic id will always take what it wants regardless of the consequences. The chip just held it back - it didn't tame it. OZ believed the same thing, except OZ always knew that he could hurt Willow, he knew the possibility always existed.

OZ and Buffy are far more rational than Willow and Spike. They acknowledge the beast's power and it scares them. It should terrify Willow and Spike but until the end of Season 6 and possibly during Smashed, I don't believe it ever did, they both believed they had it under control. In Smashed - Spike believes the chip has been deactivated and immediately goes out to bite someone. The id is gleefully rubbing its hands - ah the chip is no longer keeping me back, I can do what I want. Except two years with the chip has left an imprint, Spike has to talk himself into the attempt. Note he still attempts it. If it weren't for the chip - the girl would have been dead. But his hesitation shows remarkable progress. Willow in contrast, blatantly ignores the ego and super-ego and lets the id reign free in Smashed and Wrecked, recklessly endangering lives at the Bronze.

Both OZ and Spike react to their attacks on their lovers in the same way. OZ freaks, packs up his things and leaves Sunnydale. He does say goodbye to Willow first - but then he didn't actually hurt Willow. Buffy caught him before he was able to get near her. Also OZ and Willow have been in a loving relationship for over two years. This isn't the case with Spike and Buffy. As Spike tells Clem in Seeing Red: "We were never really together. She wouldn't lower herself that far." Spike and Buffy's relationship was never loving. When it wasn't a battle of wits, it was grudging respect, unbridled passion, companionship, and to some extent adoration from afar. It was in short far darker and complex than any relationship Willow has had.

In the last scene of Wild at Heart - OZ informs Willow that he has to find a way of controlling these urges. "The wolf is inside me all the time. And I don't know where the line is anymore - between me and it. Until I figure out what that means, I shouldn't be around you - or anybody." Each day that passes he senses the wolf more and more inside him. Not just when the moon is full. It terrifies him. This fear of losing control has been building within him - in Fear Itself, he cautions Willow regarding the use of her magic - stating: "I know what it's like to have power you can't control. I mean, every time I start to wolf out, I touch something -deep - dark. It's not fun." Willow does not heed his advice, losing control herself in the episode, her magic attacking her in the form of green fireflies. Buffy is more like OZ in this respect. She knows what it's like to have a power that could hurt someone if she lost control. In Normal Again she does - almost killing her friends. And as she states in Villains - "being the slayer, does not give me a license to kill." So, Buffy becomes the epitome of control. Monosyllabic OZ who barely expresses his emotions and appears to be calmly stoic and Buffy who similarly holds herself back after her mother dies and she's burdened with more responsibility than she can handle. Both are very contained, careful of the id, minding the ego and super-ego, while Spike and Willow are all over the place emotionally, obeying the dictates of the id.

While similar in theory, Spike's departure at the end of Season 6, is somewhat different than OZ's in Season 4. Oz left to reconcile the conflict between his id, ego and super-ego, bringing himself back into balance. He went to a Warlock to accomplish this and did not return to Willow until he learned to control his inner wolf. As OZ tells Willow in New Moon Rising, "This warlock in Romania sent me to the monks there to learn some meditation techniques. Very intense. All about keeping your inner cool�." (New Moon Rising. Season 4, Btvs) After his attack on Buffy - Spike also takes off. But he goes to Africa to seek out a demon lurking in a cave. Spike undergoes several rigorous trials, which result in the restoration of his soul or super-ego so that he wants to control the monster id. OZ who already has a soul, undergoes several mediations to keep his monster id submerged. Spike does not attempt to say goodbye to Buffy - probably because he can't imagine her wanting to see him after what he did. And he's still a chipped monster. "The chip won't let me be a monster and I can't be a man", he tells Clem. But both women are surprised to find the men gone. In Something Blue, Willow goes to OZ's dorm room and is devastated to find it completely empty. In Villains, Buffy goes to Spike's crypt and is upset to find him gone as well. Both ask when they are coming back and neither gets a clear answer. So clearly Buffy did care about Spike leaving, just as Willow cared about OZ. The difference? Buffy could never trust Spike enough to love him like Willow trusted OZ.

So will Spike return as OZ did, one with himself? The id finally under the control of the ego and super-ego. Will he lose control of it if Buffy moves on without him? Or will Spike return conflicted like Angel, no longer comfortable with the monster inside, struggling to keep it hidden, controlled at all costs? Will the addition of a super-ego and ego in the form of a soul and a chip, change him, make him the man he once was, burying the id beneath the social manners and values he held as a man? Who will have control over Spike, the demonic id or the super-ego of the soul? OZ came back - but the moment he didn't get what he wanted - the id overpowered him and took control forcing him to leave. Will this hold true for Spike?

Spike is in a different position than OZ. Although both were captured by the Initiative, OZ was freed before they implanted a neural inhibitor inside his head. Spike wasn't so lucky. Spike already has something controlling the monster. An artificial ego if you like. And Spike didn't choose it. Until now he hasn't wanted to control the monster. In Season 4 and part of Season 5, prior to his revelation about Buffy, all he wanted was to remove the chip. Now he doesn't care about the chip's existence as much as he cares about a soul. He wants to be the man he once was not the caged monster he currently is. Now that he's discovered the chip isn't enough to ensure he doesn't hurt Buffy, he wants something else, something greater to cage his beast. Unlike OZ, Spike was reconciled with his monster -it's not until now that he wants no part of it. OZ had limited control and needed greater control and to do that had to reconcile with it on some level. When OZ returns - he seems more comfortable with himself and his fate. When he left he was conflicted, out of control. Will the same thing happen for Spike? Up until Season 4 Spike seemed comfortable with himself and his fate. Then he got chipped and fell for Buffy - now he hates himself and requires change. Will the soul help? OR will it make him more like OZ, fearful of the monster within? What does it take to reconcile with the id? To tame it? To not let it control us? To not let the id tell us who we are? What does it take to resolve the super-ego's conflict with the id in the super-ego's favor?

(Questions answered in part II. Feedback? Thoughts? shadowkat)

[> Re: S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part II(long!spoilers to Grave) -- shadowkat, 11:05:09 06/14/02 Fri

PART II of Spike/Willow Journey Taming & Reconciling Monsterous ID

II. Willow and Buffy: the witch and the vampire slayer

Willow and Buffy, the witch and the slayer - both have struggled with the id. Buffy currently reflects the dominance of the super-ego while Willow represents the dominance of the id. Willow is now in a similar place to OZ and Spike, she wants it - she takes it. Buffy is getting overwhelmed by the conflict going on between the ego and the super-ego. She is striving to be all things to all people, but unable to handle the emotional and psychological overload. As a result we have her projecting her desires and anguish onto others. She projects her self-hatred onto Spike in Smashed and Dead Things - accusing him of being an evil soulless thing and almost beating him to a pulp. In Wrecked she projects her own shame onto Willow, comparing her relationship with Spike with Willow's use of magic. "You should give it up�no matter how good it feels," she says at the end of Wrecked.

In Season 6, both Willow and Buffy are struggling. As Tillow, Rahael, and Ixchel stated in the excellent depression threads - both women have been struggling with elements of depression this season. What happens to the ego when it is undergoing severe bouts of depression or anxiety? What defense mechanisms are used? Does the id start to reassert itself - taking pleasure where it can?

In Season 4, Btvs, Willow deals with OZ's departure by first getting drunk - a similar response to Buffy's handling of the Parker situation in Beer Bad. Except Buffy didn't love Parker. Parker was Buffy's way of getting past Angel. When alcohol doesn't work, Willow goes back to her tried and true staple of magic. Since Season 3, Willow has used magic to fix things to her liking, whether it be saving the universe (Angel's cure in Becoming), giving her friend a birthday gift (Gingerbread and the protection spell), or defending herself against unbidden sexual desires (Lover's Walk and the delusting spell). In Dopplegangerland (Season 3) - we get to see Willow sans superego. VampWillow's all id and ego. The morality is gone which makes the ego somewhat twisted, like Spike sans chip. Without the super-ego, the ego has no reason to hold back the negative impulses of the id. So it's interesting in Season 6, when we begin to see Willow fall into the same behavior and speech patterns as VampWillow in Dopplegangerland. Willow at the end of Dopplegangerland, feels the same sense of shame Xander feels at the end of the Pack (Season 1) - the super-ego overwhelms her. She tells Buffy she'll stay a virgin forever, never venture out, stay pure. Then Percy, the bane of her existence arrives and instead of baiting her or forcing her to do his homework, turns in two completed papers and gives her an apple. VampWillow's treatment of Percy apparently worked. And the end result satisfied the ego, super-ego and id - hence no conflict. Willow asks Buffy what time she'd like to meet at the Bronze. Apparently the resolution is to reconcile all three. Instead of placing the evil id in chains, the ego creates defenses against the id's negative/destructive impulses while the superego guides it in the right direction. The id = drive, the ego = control and the superego = the moral goal.

Buffy as the slayer = listens to all three. In Beer Bad - even though she desperately wants to kill Parker, the boy who rudely dumped her, and it's arguable that cave Buffy is id personified - when push comes to shove - she saves his life. Even if it means hitting him over the head to do it, which appeases the id who desires vengeance. Buffy is far from perfect, but considering she has the power to pummel a normal human to death, she shows great restraint. The reasons can be ascribed partly to Giles and Joyce - her parental morality structure. As Giles states in Tabula Rasa - he provided her with the moral structure to be a slayer and her mother provided her with the moral framework to be a good person. In Villains, when she explains to Xander and Dawn why it is wrong to exact vengeance on Warren or any human no matter what their crimes - we see a combination of Joyce and Giles' teachings. These teachings also appear to extend to demons - Giles has taught her that it is wrong to use and abuse Spike, rendered harmless with the chip. In Something Blue he tells both Spike, currently chained in Giles' bathtub, and Buffy that they won't hurt a harmless creature. Once they determine he is harmless they will let him go. Giles also takes measures to help Spike when he shows up with a tracking device implanted in him. Giles behavior towards Spike serves as an example to the SG as well as to Spike. We learn societal and moral behavior patterns through our role models - in Btvs this would be Giles - the parent figure. Of the Scoobs - Giles spends the most time teaching Buffy. Buffy has the added advantage of Joyce. We don't know much about Willow's parents except that they appear to be relatively uninvolved in her life and when they are they attribute her behavior to psychological processes.

We have even less information regarding Spike and OZ's backgrounds. OZ appears to be fairly well adjusted. Spike - well his parental role models as a vampire were Dru, Angelus, and Darla. But Spike really doesn't have a super-ego or much of an ego for that matter. The superego houses the psyche's moral framework, which it obtains from parental and societal role models. The demon soul appears to be mostly id with just enough ego to ensure evil results. And the id doesn't learn. The chip may have added a little more ego to the mix, controlling the more violent impulses of Spike's demon psyche. But it's hardly a super-ego - the chip doesn't provide him with goals or reasons outside of the ones important to the id. He has no desire or knowledge of bigger goals. He protects Buffy and her extended family because that provides him with comfort, sex, food and shelter from Buffy and her extended family. Their loss - removes those items. The chip keeps him from hurting them or anyone else directly. It does not prevent him from doing so indirectly in order to please himself. (Examples: the demon eggs, kitty poker, seeking asylum from the loan-shark�)

What about William? Well - from Fool for Love - we know that William had a hatred of violence and seemed to prefer creating objects of beauty. These are the goals of the super-ego or in Jossverse the soul. Creating something to make others feel good. We also know that he had a close relationship with his mother who was possibly controlling. The Victorian period is known historically to be pretty strict when it came to societal morals. You did not curse or show affection in public. That risqu� Bronze scene between Buffy and Spike in Dead Things - would have been a strict no-no in Victorian Society. Pre-martial sex and violence were frowned upon. William as he is described in Fool For Love appears to be the epitome of the proper, self-styled, scholarly Victorian gentlemen. "I prefer not to think of such things," he haughtily tells the aristocrats who ask his opinion on a recent spat of murders, "that's what the police are for. I prefer to concentrate on creating things of beauty." This leads me to believe in the establishment of a strict moral code in William, far stricter than Liam's or Darla's who did not have close relationships with their parents and led fairly violent lives prior to their vamping. So - if Spike regains William's soul - would his super-ego's moral structure be the extreme opposite of the demon's?? William seems to be all super-ego, his ego repressing the id in order to maintain the high moral standards expected in his social sphere -as is demonstrated in his appearance, mannerisms, and costume: the suite, the cravat, the glasses, and the scholarly demeanor. He looks exactly like Giles, who represents Buffy's moral guide. When William becomes Spike, his super-ego is torn away and his id is unleashed - hence the black leather jacket, blatant sexuality, violent demeanor, cigarettes, alcohol, and platinum blond hair. What happens when the extremes meet? The loosely seductive bad-boy vamp meets the morally uptight poet? For OZ to control the id or inner beast - he went and found new methods for the ego to keep the impulses under control and resolve the conflict. OZ's moral structure was intact, so he had the internal desire to control the id. The conflict was actually more with his ego, who was struggling to do its job. Spike's chip keeps most of his violent impulses under control, but without a soul, he doesn't have the overlapping moral structure to want to do so. Nor does he have the desire to help others outside of those who can please his id. So when the chip deactivates, the demon's ego only works to promote the impulses of the beast, whether those be negative or positive in nature.

Back to Willow and Buffy. Willow and Buffy obviously have the moral structure. And up until Season 4, Willow appeared to be the most morally upstanding of the SG. She wouldn't even leave school grounds for lunch. And debates eating a banana prior to lunch as a rebellion. (Doppelgangerland). But as Anya says in that over-quoted line from Smashed, when responsible people get a taste of being bad - it's seductive and they want more until they go all kablooey. Willow's id has been straining at the bit for sometime. She's been so repressed emotionally - that it's no wonder she explodes or goes kablooey. What causes it is the denial of those things she craves: comfort and sex. Without comfort and sex - the other two, food and shelter seem meaningless. The first time she goes kablooey is in Something Blue - when she attempts to fix her problem with magic. Buffy, the super-ego, tells Willow, the id, that she needs to work through the pain - that she can't just make it go poof. Wishing to make the pain go away, Willow casts a spell in which she hopes she can "will" her pain away. Instead she "wills" chaos on all her friends. Not unlike the chaos Buffy almost causes in Beer Bad as cave Buffy. And like Buffy, Willow does reverse the spell in the nick of time. Chaos isn't exactly bad in either instance - since it pushes Buffy past her pain in Beer Bad and gives her a sense of closure and provides Willow with a similar sense of closure in Something Blue - where she appears to learn that magic doesn't solve problems it just makes them worse. The second time, Willow uses magic to fix things is in Tough Love - where once again comfort and sex are removed. Buffy once again reins her in, saving her from Glory the unfettered id.
The third time - Willow uses her magic to bring Buffy back to life. In this case, Willow's id, super-ego and ego are all in agreement - she must bring Buffy back before the world of Sunnydale crumbles into hell. She also honestly believes Buffy is in hell. The fourth time is the charm - Tara is shot and killed and Willow goes kablooey. She briefly went kablooey before when Tara left her and she injured Dawn, but nowhere near what she does when she literally and figuratively loses her lover and all the pleasure her lover represents. In torment - Willow's id breaks past all her ego's defenses and overtakes her super-ego. It is in control. As Willow states in Grave - "Willow (the super-ego) doesn't live here anymore."

Buffy is the reverse. When she comes back from the grave she is struggling for a sense of balance. At first she wanders about in a haze just going through the motions. As time passes the moral structure that has always guided her begins to crack. She craves comfort and passion. Sex provides both. Sex without strings that is. But her moral structure, the part of her that strives to be something more, the slayer - the super-hero, can't handle the id's desires. The two become conflicted and the ego struggles to deal with it. Professor Walsh's old question arises: So, how does this conflict with the ego manifest itself in the psyche? What do we do when we can't have what we want? Buffy wants to go back to Heaven where she was warm, comforted, provided for and loved. Done. She tries numerous ways of either replicating the experience or getting there. The first is suicide with the singing demon in OMWF, the second is sex with Spike in Smashed through As You Were, the third is the asylum world - which she can only retreat to if she kills her friends and family in the basement of her mind. But the super-ego can't stomach any of these choices. It is at war with the ego to stop them. Buffy's suicide is stopped by Spike. The super-ego's inability to handle the shameful sex with Spike causes the ego to project the super-ego's misery onto Spike. The other way the ego handles this conflict is by denying the relationship. Neither works for the super-ego. And Buffy feels intense shame and guilt as a result. Finally, the super-ego wins and Buffy ends the relationship and retreats to the third and final choice - the asylum world. She has repressed her rage at being brought back to life until it explodes onto her friends and Dawn, whom she attempts to destroy. But her super-ego, the moral structure her parents imbued in her, cannot stand idly by while the monster attempts to destroy them. So Buffy saves the day, again. And they eventually forgive her. Buffy has finally pushed through to the other side. So that by Seeing Red and Villians, Buffy is once again acting as the voice of reason and morality. She tells Spike she can't be with him, because she can't love him. Her super-ego has learned that love can't last without trust. A concept the id can't understand. And she tells Xander and Dawn that you can't play with the natural order of things. Vengeance solves nothing. Another concept the id does not understand. Unfortunately in Seeing Red - Buffy as the super-ego barely manages to kick the bestial id (Spike) off of her and in Villains - she is unable to save Warren from the id as represented by Willow.

You can't have an id and super-ego without the ego. Something needs to guide those impulses, needs to focus them and needs to defend you from them. Buffy symbolizes the super-ego in Btvs. The moral structure. Willow seems to symbolize the id unleashed in all it's fury. So who symbolizes the ego? Xander and to some extent Giles - who states that his magic will act as a sort of control - force Willow to feel her humanity or soul = superego.

So back to our question: What does it take to resolve the ego's conflict with the id and super-ego as represented in Spike and Willow? How do we deal with the id?

In Btvs - the following occurs: Willow is stopped by Xander who stands in front of a steeple with a chained demonic goddess. The Goddess represents the id and all its negative desires, the steeple the super-ego rising into the heavens, and the chains - the ego. Willow is attempting to free the chained goddess from her chains so she can free the earth from its' pain - Willow desires comfort, an end to pain. Xander gets in the way - calm, rational, Xander. He is not the super-ego, that's Buffy, the slayer. Nor is he the id, that's Spike and Willow. He is the ego - struggling to control the ids impulses, standing between it and the steeple or its desires. And he gives the id what it desires - love and comfort. "I love you, Willow," he repeats, until she falls sobbing into his arms where he comforts her.

What about Spike? Spike is stopped by Buffy who violently kicks him off her and tells him he can never have her as long as he is what he is - the bestial id without constraint. Spike gets the message. Not through Buffy - but through the realization that he hurt the very thing he desired. By hurting it - he loses all chance to obtain it. So off his ego sends him to reclaim the one thing that may change it - the soul of the man he once was, his super-ego. The ego once again saves the id. It sends him to the super-ego.

So balance appears to be the answer. If we can balance the battling forces within our psyche, we can handle the world around us. The id gives us drive, the super-ego the moral goal and the ego the ability to get there. By reconciling the monstrous id with the ego and super-ego, we control it. Repressing it as OZ and Willow attempted only causes it to gain in power. Unleashing it as Willow and Spike attempt only destroys what it wants. Using the ego and super-ego to accept the id yet keep it in check as Buffy eventually does - makes it possible for us to step out of the grave and into the sunshine.

Hope this made sense. Got ambitious again I think.
Feedback? Thought? Thanks,

: -) shadowkat

[> [> Simply splendid, 'kat. I just sent you feedback on your site ... -- Exegy, 12:27:32 06/14/02 Fri

... and I asked when the second part of the S/W journey would be posted. Guess you answered me! Yet another wonderful essay.

I'll try to formulate an adequate reply by tomorrow--don't know if I have time now. Keeping the thread alive until later!

[> [> Wow! I loved your essay;) -- Drizzt, 12:58:12 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Re: S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part II(long!spoilers to Grave) -- redcat, 16:49:38 06/14/02 Fri

This is an excellent and insightful essay, 'kat, among your best yet. You're pulling together
ideas that have been developing in your analyses for awhile now, and your articulation of them
here is clear and generally quite logically developed. Because I see your work on these
characters as both quite intuitively perceptive (I think I've used the word "brilliant" in the past)
as well as on-going, I do have a small question, though.

Early in pt. 1, you define the soul within the context of a psychological model and lay out for us
the central questions that guide your analysis:

"If we define the soul as the ego and super-ego converged -- the part of us that
tells us what we can''t have or shouldn''t have and what we ""should"", not
necessarily ""want"" to, strive for, what happens when the ego and/or super-ego
are removed or submerged beneath the id? If submerged, we have the wild
werewolf or beer bad cave Buffy. If removed? We have Spike sans chip. The
chip provides a pseudo-ego or leash for the id. What it can''t provide is the
morality or ""should strive for"" motivational structure of the super-ego, for that
you must have a soul."

For most of your essay, this schematic remains clear and works very well, IMHO, as a
descriptive and analytical tool. But towards the middle of pt. 2, I begin having a bit of difficulty
following the argument, because you begin talking about Spike's demon soul and his demon
ego in terms that don't seem quite comparable to your other uses of those terms, e.g.:

"But Spike really doesn''t have a super-ego or much of an ego for that matter.
The superego houses the psyche''s moral framework, which it obtains from
parental and societal role models. The demon soul appears to be mostly id with
just enough ego to ensure evil results. And the id doesn''t learn. The chip may
have added a little more ego to the mix, controlling the more violent impulses of
Spike''s demon psyche. But it''s hardly a super-ego -- the chip doesn''t provide
him with goals or reasons outside of the ones important to the id."

And then later, you claim that it is this demon ego with the little bit of conscience added by the
chip that sends Spike off to get his human soul back.

Well, OK, I guess I have two issues here. The first is that by the end of your essay, the human
soul has become primarily described as super-ego, and seems to have lost it's definition as
both that and ego. This may just be a matter of where the argument takes you in its own rush
to completion, but it might be worth your re-consideration.

The second issue has to do with the place of the "demon soul" in the foundational schematic. If
the human soul or even just it's constituent part, the super-ego, is the site of Joss's "moral
compass" in the direction of "doing good," then the demon soul should, by the metaphysical
rules of correspondence, have a moral compass pointing in the direction of "doing evil" - it's
own demon form of super-ego - just as it seemingly has a "demon ego" component and a
"demon id" component (although it also sounds like the demon and human id are pretty close
in your analysis, or perhaps even the same thing [?]). If demon souls do fit into the overall
structure in this way, their demon super-ego would simply be one that sees the creation of
chaos and disruptions of order as positive values on a scale where demons live at our
(humans') negative end. [Mind you, I think there is a great deal of evidence that this is not so.
Vamps apparently don't need to be taught to rampage by a parental or collective vamp
socialization process, lots of them they seem come by it "naturally." It's your schematic that I'm
trying to figure out.] Additionally, IF a single id is shared equally by human and vamp, and
Spike's chip is just a strong behavior modifier that acts like an ego but is not really one, then
why would Spike's demon ego want to get a soul rather than get the chip out so he could
simply take of Buffy what the id has wanted all along, pleasure and sex, followed (one would
assume) by food if not shelter?

Somehow, I think I must be missing a connection somewhere. Am I mis-reading and not
following your argument carefully enough? Can you help lift the fog for me? What is this
demon soul and where does it fit in your analysis?

THANKS, 'kat. I think your work here is really good and worth my trying to really understand it.
I'm not being picky or critical, I'm just hoping to get a clearer sense of how your analysis works.

[> [> [> Okay have some answers now re: demon souls (long!) -- shadowkat, 20:01:29 06/14/02 Fri

Hi redcat - thanks for this and for pin-pointing the area of the essay that I 'm struggling with. No, you weren't being picky at all. I'll try to address what got muddled and maybe together we can clarify it. Dang ME and their ambiguous writing.

Before I do so - the muddle/fog is not completely ME's fault, it's partly the fault of Freudian theory. Before writing this - I read a paper by Dr. Charles Brenner called "Beyond the Id and the Ego" and in that article Brenner mentioned how these definitions often overlap and aren't always accurate in psychoanalytic theory, I tend to agree - ran into the same conflicts in my essay. Frustrated - I discussed this with a friend who has a psychology background and we determined the following.

1. Pure id without ego = the animal or reptile, no thought, nothing but pure unbridled instinct. OZ in his werewolf form or what Xander and the students in the Pack would have become if the hyenas remained inside them. The primal.

2. Pure Ego would probably be the buffybot

3. Super-ego and ego would be Lt. Data on the Starship Enterprise or Mr. Spock. Actually Vulcans are an excellent example of the id being entirely suppressed.

So I queried what is ego plus id? Well that would probably be the vampire. Because the ego protects the id from hurting itself and directs it towards it's goal.

So what would a pure super-ego be? Well according to Freud it's the moral compass, the moral framework created by our parents and society. Freud was a bit obsessed with parential influences - believing these could lead to negative impulses housed in the id and regulated by the ego. Freud as someone else pointed out on the B C & S board was heavily influenced by Victorian morality, which considered sex a dark impulse. Wishing to avoid these traps, I thought okay...what is ME working towards here. Because I really hate the whole Oedipal thing and sex as a dark impulse.

Well Joss Whedon defines a soul differently than we do. We define it as the essence of our personality, our self. Whedon defines it almost in the same terms as Freud defines the super-ego, which leads me to believe Joss took Psychology in college or someone on his staff did (maybe Marti??) and had the evil Prof Walsh as a teacher. Examples: In the Pack, which I just rewatched on FX - Giles explains that the primals worshipped the hyena or animal shadow energy as something better than a soul. They considered the soul unholy. They preferred the primal. Actually - this is true in some primitive tribal cultures, who prefer our animal nature to the more evolved one or super-ego. (They see animals as being a purer form of being). Giles goes on to define this energy as primal or animalistic, seeking only it's own pleasure - reminds me of the Freudian definition of the "id". Then in Angel - he defines the vampire as a vicious animal similar to the demonic possession of the hyenas. Later in Season 4 when Buffy begins to lose her soul to her roommate, her negative impulses get unleashed, she wants what is hers, doesn't want to share.

So if this is what ME means by id and soul. And how they are separate. What about ego? According to Freud the ego is the motor function, the way we deal with the negative impulses of the id, how we protect ourselves from them. I'd say intelligence is probably the ego. Or logic.

How does this answer your questions regarding Spike?

Well I made the mistake of mentioning a demon soul because I'm not really sure they are meant to have one and if they do - my guess is it's just a combo of ego and id. But all demons are not created equal. Some may have all three, perhaps in the manner you suggest. The demon super-ego cares about the continuation of chaos or evil - examples would be Anyanka, D'Hoffryn, Glory - although I still think Glory is a metaphor for an unfettered id with Ben as her ego caging her - what does she say to Ben? When you become immortal, guilt, shame, all those negative feelings melt away like ice cream. You can do whatever you want and not care. Now this sounds like the id talking to the ego. But I could be misreading the metaphor. Adam seemed to be super-ego and ego with no id. He understood primal desires but seemed to be above them, more interested in tthe big picture. While Spike just cared about a)getting the chip out or b) surviving - id/ego responses to the situation. So Adam would be an example of a bad super-ego. Vampires appear to be more primal in nature, just a step above werewolves - going for their pleasures over the big picture in most cases. (Again Spike in Becoming, Lover's Walk, School Hard, Primeval) In fact very few of them seem to get the big picture. (Rise out of the grave, go get something to eat.) There are a few that do - which makes me wonder if they could develop a super-ego over time? An evil super-ego like the Master and Angelus seemed to?? (Remember - Spike is only 128 years old. Angelus was at least 243 and The Master approximately 800. And the Buffyverse mythos suggests that the older vamps lose their human visages�change as time goes on?) So my guess, originally they possess neither a demon soul nor a human one. That said - what would motivate a demon to seek any soul? Why bother? All it would do is place greater pressure on the id?

Well - there is the argument that Spike didn't really go after a soul and the lurker demon tricked him, but I think JE's interview pretty much nixed that argument, even though under the Freudian super-ego, ego, id theory that "argument" appears to make the most logical sense. So how do we reconcile it?

I can think of two theories.

1. That there's a little super-ego left inside Spike after all, just a tiny amount, way deep inside in those old memory banks, retained after the vamping and if it weren't for the chip suppressing some of his id's negative impulses - it would probably never see the light of day. There may be a little inside all vamps - remember they are human's infected. So it would make sense that a sliver of that old soul got left behind. We only have Angel's word that the entire soul is gone. Maybe - they are like the werewolves in that their super-ego, that tiny bit that is still left over was submerged. It's not enough to do anything of course...but it might be enough to push him to go after rest - if his id and ego are convinced it's the only way they can get what they want. Remember Spike asks Clem, why do I feel this way? What has she done to me? It's all jimny cricket. He's feeling guilt and shame. Emotions that vampires can't feel. Without a soul or super-ego - They don't have the capacity for these emotions. They don't know what guilt is, they have no knowledge of it. So how is he feeling it? Has the chip become something more than just an ego for Spike? The writing is contradictory on this one. But so is Freud. Which leads me to theory number 2.

2. The super-ego and ego overlap a bit. The ego has elements of the super-ego in its basic structure - to hold back and protect the id. The problem with the id - is we tend to separate it from the other two, we tend to separate it from ourselves - as if it's not part of us, when it actually is very vital to our make up. We call it evil - the beast. But the id is our drive, our desires, what makes us get up in the morning & enjoy life. Go eat breakfast. Wander through the garden. Or write essays to get cool feedback. I think ME has dealt with these concepts in an interesting manner - I think they've separated the id and overlapped the ego and super-ego, so that while separate concepts, they contain elements of each other, hence Professor Walsh's question about how the id and ego are in conflict. Beings who have souls - have super-ego/ego and id. The super-ego in the souled being usually is dominant. It aids the ego in restraining negative impulses in the id and rewarding positive ones. Not always but in most cases. Beings without a soul only have id and ego or sometimes just id - the mindless animal - Farayle demon? The id is dominant in these creatures, with the ego giving basic verbal and motor functions. Since super-ego and ego overlap, a pre-dominant ego would change a demon from a being that just goes after what it desires to actually trying for something greater, something beyond just the pleasure principal. In most demons - a predominant ego causes them to go after greater evil. Remember the ego can hold back negative impulses - negative impulses in a demon may be different than a human, they may be considered positive impulses from the demonic id's pov. (ie. The demon ego holds back what humans would consider positive impulses while rewarding negative ones.) So what happens if a neural behavior modifier is implanted in a demon, altering the demon's interpretation of the id's impulses to fit the human's interpretation from positive to negative? Ie. If I bite people - I will experience intense pain when before I experienced intense pleasure. (What would you do if something you used to enjoy made you violently ill?) And what if this newly formed ego begins to gain power over the demon's id, begins to be the filter the id sees through to reach its desires? The ego can apparently influence what the id wants. It has to, to protect itself from pain. To survive. So what happens if the ego has been altered by science to seek positive/good outcomes? Instead of wanting to kill the slayer the ego now wants to love her, to protect her? And what happens if the id breaks free of the ego's influence, albeit briefly, causing intense conflict? (The id wants to possess the slayer - the ego wants to protect her from harm, to see her happy.) Who'd win? The ego has been bolstered by a chip, which rewired it to help the slayer and not hurt living things. The id still wants to hurt living things - but the re-wired ego has, up until the attempted rape scene, been keeping it back. The ego is also the source of the demon's intelligence. The attempted rape scene threw the ego and id into conflict. To ultimately win this conflict - the ego has to get some help. A super-ego? But the id is resisting - it wants to win, it wants the chip removed. So the ego coaxes it. Ascribes blame to other parties. (It's the chip's fault not mine.) Does what egos do best, protect the id. (Hence all the bravado in the cave scenes. That's the ego lying to the id.) So we have the trials, which exhaust the id allowing the ego to finally get what it wants.

Sorry, so longwinded. Hope it made sense. Thoughts?

Thanks again for making me think through it! did a wonderful
job of focusing my mind on stuff outside of horrible
job hunts and work...augh. ;-)

shadowkat

[> [> [> [> BRILLIANT! -- redcat, 20:56:41 06/14/02 Fri

You've made the demon id-ego/chip connections absolutely clear to me now! WOW. I think I actually heard a "click" when I read the last paragraph above. Spike went through a "learning curve" to figure out how to have pleasure in life with the chip is his head, leading to critical changes in his behaviors and attitudes. The demon id never learns, but the demon ego does, in this case lessons moderated by the chip's constant presence. Very clear and good insights and explanation for this part of it, 'kat.

But I don't think your idea that some vamps or all vamps retain a bit of human super-ego, itching to get out, works, at least for me. It throws too much of the rest of the basic Buffyverse mythology into question and raises the whole "if every vamp is potentially redeemable, then B is a mass murderer" problem..... and not even Freud would want to go there.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: BRILLIANT! -- shadowkat, 05:34:15 06/15/02 Sat

First - thanks! I agree...I think the second theory works
better too.

"But I don't think your idea that some vamps or all vamps retain a bit of human super-ego, itching to get out, works, at least for me. It throws too much of the rest of the basic Buffyverse mythology into question and raises the whole "if every vamp is potentially redeemable, then B is a mass murderer" problem..... and not even Freud would want to go there."

Agree. I think that's part of the reason they had to send Spike after a soul, otherwise we start going into the every vamp is potentially redeemable area which causes all sorts of issues to arise that I'm not sure Whedon and Company wanted to get mired in. They are sort of exploring these issues on Angel with Gunn and his gange and Holtz. But exploring them on Buffy would invalidate their whole thesis of how demons are metaphors for our internal ones which we must slay. So I think theory two about the demon ego learning how to please the id works better.

Hmmm - must revise essay to show that, but need to check Rufus's views first. Rufus has the Buffyverse mythos and ME's intent down. So if I'm off she'll catch it.

Thanks again for getting me to think it through. ;- )

[> [> I'm off to read.......I'll answer later -- Rufus, 18:40:12 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> perfect sense, life is a struggle toward balance -- shygirl, 06:12:56 06/15/02 Sat

yes and you make a point about William's soul that I can hardly wait to see how the writer's deal with... William is gonna be horrified by Spike. Because as the super-ego is intergrated into the id and ego structure, it's gonna have to deal with a very bloody past and the question is... can the super-ego stay sane in the process and not try to die as penance.

[> So, 'kat, for Season 7.... -- cjl, 15:07:55 06/14/02 Fri

Do you think Spike and Willow will commiserate in their mutual struggle to re-establish their superegos, while Xander and Buffy--our resident voices of reason--finally struggle with their unleashed ids?

[> [> Re: So, 'kat, for Season 7.... -- shadowkat, 16:18:48 06/14/02 Fri

Xander already unleashed his id in the PAck and the Zeppo
and let's see Lover's Walk...so don't see a reoccurence.
Actually I'm at a loss where they can take this character.

Buffy merged all three in the end.

The only two who seem in need of help are Willow and Spike
who I think I'm beginning to get burnt out on. Sort of like your obsession with Dawn I think. ;-)

[> [> [> Xander has to work his way out of the basement ... (S6 Spoilers) -- Exegy, 15:02:32 06/15/02 Sat

He must finally confront his parents' history in the upper levels of his mind (having the heart to walk up those stairs, to bring his buried issues to the surface). He must develop past his unacknowledged fixation (on inheriting the dysfunction of his parents); he must work toward reconciliation with Anya (his demon).

While Xander has projected an aura of security (from The Replacement to HB), he really has kept his problems locked away to gnaw at him. They're always at the back of his mind. So while Suave!Xander seems to be in control, CaptainFear!Xander actually runs the house (as Anya notes in Flooded and Entropy). Hence the buried desire to have everything turn out alright (the OMWF wish). The ominous thunder at the beginning of HB. Xander plays the part of Comfortador (OAFA, AYW), but he's lost the strength of his heart. He lets his fear overwhelm him (actually living the reality of a hellish marriage with Anya). He becomes a wreck of a man, only regaining his heart at the end of Grave.

Now that he's found his heart, he must deal with all his unearthed problems. I can imagine many delicious possibilities....

[> Locking Away the Demon (Part 1 of 2) -- Exegy, 17:55:00 06/14/02 Fri

We suppress that which we fear about ourselves. We stuff all our inner darkness into a tiny compartment, and there we lock it away. We bury it below the surface ... in the dark regions of the mind. The ego represses the id, and everything on the surface is sunny.

And so everything seems with Oz. The laconic musician appears to have his demonic aspect under control. He confines himself to a cage when his monstrous self dominates. For three nights he gives in to his wild tendencies; the rest of the month he is the essence of cool. But he has given himself a false sense of security. The ego hasn't balanced the id and the super-ego here. It has merely provided him with a coping mechanism, an easy way to repress his violent emotions. Sooner or later these emotions will erupt, relegated to the cage no longer. And then the chaos will overwhelm him.

Oz cannot admit this possibility. He huddles, confined to the bathtub in Fear Itself, telling himself again and again, "You're not going to change. You're not going to change." Maybe if he repeats this mantra enough he won't lose control--but his words are weak, whimpers against the encroaching darkness. He's relied upon an inadequate coping mechanism for too long; now his cage is about to break.

His self-imposed restraints crumble in Wild at Heart. He runs free beneath the moon, his negative aspect brought to the surface at last. He consorts with a female werewolf; he experiences a type of freedom he only sensed as a human. His raging hunger is fulfilled.

Then comes the light of day, and Oz tells himself that this cannot happen again. It will not happen again. He will reconcile the impulses of the id to the impositions of the super-ego. He will cage his dark urges. It'll be like nothing untoward ever happened. Because he can't let anyone find out that he lost control ... then he would have to admit his lapse to himself. He'd have to give reality to all his worst fears. He can't do that ... he can't upset his balance like that.

But the balance is not there. It never was. Security is an illusion the ego insists upon maintaining. When Oz stuffs Veruca into the cage with him, he's maintaining once more the illusion of control--but we see that the control evaporates almost immediately. Oz clasps hands with Veruca before he has even changed into the wolf; he embraces the reckless freedom she provides. The cage does not keep them safe from each other. Unbalanced, driven by the id, they collide together. Chaos reigns.

Willow descends into her lover's underground abode, and she sees into the depths of his mind. She sees the chaos lurking there. And she finally realizes what the werewolf nature signifies: inconstancy. The 'wolf is governed by the cycle of the moon, with the moon as the symbol of change. Exactly what Oz denies--he cannot change into a monster. But he does, and he hurts Willow. It was inevitable.

Oz leaves, knowing that he can only hurt Willow again if he stays. He can't deny his darkness any longer. He seeks to incorporate it into his being ... but he still cannot achieve balance. The new moon he follows may give him more leeway than the old moon ... but the wolf still emerges. The wolf that all of us have inside to some degree, the id that can never be entirely suppressed or controlled. The id that must be brought to the surface and dealt with ... not relegated to the lower levels of the mind. Not locked in the basement.

The basement is where the darkness reigns supreme. We see Buffy fall into the dark basement in Fear Itself, breaking the lock that has kept her safe from all her worst fears. A shade whispers, "They all run away from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone...." This is Buffy's greatest fear: desertion. She can't bear to be left alone to suffer destruction and death. Better to close herself off, to lock her emotions away. Better to bury herself.

So Buffy shoves all her worries into the basement, leaving the higher levels of the super-ego clean, the house of the ego intact. But the darkness worries at her foundations, screaming to be let out. She releases herself with Spike, giving vent to all her repressed emotions. Letting loose with the violence. Both Buffy and Spike fall into the lower levels of the house, driven by the id as Oz and Veruca were driven. The walls of the self collapse atop them; the superstructure comes crashing down.

So Buffy's sense of self disintegrates along with her grip on higher morality. She loses control, and she sees both her abuse of Spike and her "killing" of Katrina (inextricably tangled in her mind) as manifestations of this unacceptable loss of control. Her loss of self. How can this "wrong" Buffy be the Buffy of old? The same righteous girl? This isn't who she is!

Buffy will never rediscover who she is until she emerges from the basement, bringing her problems to the surface. She cannot lock the demon away.

Part II follows....

[> [> Re: Locking Away the Demon (Part 2 of 2) -- Exegy, 19:18:08 06/14/02 Fri

Buffy remains fixated to her childhood. She cannot let herself grow out of her dependency on the image of the mother. She cannot admit to herself that the old mother is dead. She is the mother now, and Dawn is her responsibility. Buffy resists this change; she longs to return to the womb. Her desire is wedded to her fear, and both are housed in the lower levels of her mind. In the basement, where she stuffs all her problems. Down where she refuses to grow up.

If Buffy's situation were not made literal enough, then we have the illustration provided by the Troika. Here are three geeks who have refused to grow up. They remain boys stuck in the basement, living in a land of dreams. They escape from painful reality by retreating into their fantasy world. Their illusions seem innocent enough at first, but we soon see that illusions can be very damaging. For instance, the nerds retreat so far into fantasy that they do not even recognize an actual rape as it is about to take place. A girl dies as a result of their "live action roleplaying."

Unable to accept the RL consequences of what they have done, they push the responsibility onto Buffy. They shift the blame to her, and two credit themselves on a good job. Jonathan senses the wrongness of these actions, but he literally cannot escape the basement now. Warren and Andrew keep him down, effectively locking their collective conscience away. Effectively hindering any further development that could take place among them. For Jonathan says, "Stuck in this basement for weeks! I mean, we rented the whole house, can't we at least sleep upstairs?" (NA). The nerds have limited themselves to the realm of the id; they refuse to explore the upper reaches. It's dangerous up there. The Slayer, symbolic of their super-ego ... she might impose herself upon them. This would be unacceptable. Better to stay a child than to face the consequences as an adult. To admit to the wrongness of what they've done.

It's easier to remain a child, exempt from responsibility. Buffy wants to return to that life; she fears the pain associated with growing up. She resists change. She doesn't want to see that her house has changed in After Life. She doesn't want to see Joyce's presence removed. But the dead mother only exists in photographs now. Buffy only has the memory of Joyce to sustain her, and so she fixates upon this memory as the way out.

Normal Again brilliantly captures the psychological fixation Buffy has experienced all season. The viewer finally connects to her sense of being ripped from heaven; it's the sense of being ripped from her childhood, thrust into an adulthood she is not ready for. Of course heaven seems like more than 147 days to her; it is all the years of relative bliss she spent with her mother, connected still to the womb. That time was heaven. This time is hell. Buffy retreats from the pain, and she loses her sense of self. From NA:

BUFFY: I feel so lost.
WILLOW: I know. You're confused. It's, it's that crazy juice inside you.
BUFFY: It's been more than that. Even before the demon ... I've been so detached.
WILLOW: We've ... all been kind of slumming.
BUFFY: Every time I try to ... snap out of it. Figure out why I'm like that.

Buffy has detached herself from the world. A part of her still exists in the universe where her mother lives ... where her parents are together, there is no sister to take care of, and she never becomes the Slayer. Buffy wants to return to the time when everything was so stable. She wants to be "normal again." She cannot accept the horror her life has become. She'd rather be crazy.

The demon in the basement, the source of Buffy's delusions, represents her fear of adulthood and her desire for childhood. These twin drives of the id become fatal impulses when locked away ... as Buffy's friends soon discover.

Buffy feels that her current existence, the afterlife of the child, cannot be real. The child must still be alive somewhere, locked away in an institution, begging to be let out. Begging to be restored to the health of a former time. Because what Buffy feels now ... cannot be healthy. She cannot be the real person. She can't have a vampire as a lover; she can't have a Key as a sister. Her friends can't be drifting apart. This is not real. Her friends must be symptoms of her illness, traps for her mind. Supports for her primary delusion. The things keeping her unhappy.

These connections to her world must be severed. She must drift away, free once again to return to the womb. To be insulated in the comforting institution, completely dependent on others, secure in the knowledge that everyone real is alright. Any pain is just an illusion of the world she left behind, a remnant of her fantasy. Not real.

Just another problem to lock away.

Buffy threatens to destroy the reality of her life as a Slayer. She threatens to sacrifice her friends to the demon of the id, the mute demon that expresses all her simple desires. This demon has been in the basement a long time now; it really is the big bad of the season, the demon that convinces Buffy to bring everyone down into the basement with her ... Willow first. Destroying her friends is the only way she can return to that time when she was at peace, that time when everything seemed right.

But Buffy cannot destroy her friends. She's stuck between two worlds, each bearing equal reality for her. If she accepts one, then she irrevocably denies the other. She cannot decide; she settles into inertia, just as she has all this season, letting the demon decide for her. She cowers beneath the stairs, at her lowest level. She closes her eyes to the desperate struggles of her friends. They CANNOT be real!!

Buffy bangs her head against the institution wall. She now seeks escape from the womb, the place of her confinement. She desperately wants some sort of closure.

Oddly enough, the words of Joyce encourage Buffy to say good-bye to her mother. To finally find the strength to give up on the dream of childhood. To kill the demon that has plagued her all season. Sticking her hand into its heart, assimilating its dark powers into herself.

And then leaving the basement, crawling out of the grave. Accepting her calling as an adult. Choosing to deal with her problems on the surface, to slay those demons that unearth themselves every night. To be a Slayer.

[> [> [> Excellent post! Few responses... -- shadowkat, 20:33:49 06/14/02 Fri

I love the way you write...beautiful.

Okay...now a few questions. Is the demon locked in the basement - Buffy's adulthood? The id? Or her childhood?
I'm thinking it's the id's fear of adulthood. As children we are afraid of what is in the basement or the closet or under the bed, while adults have no problem entering it.

As we grow up, we learn the values, morals and manners that make it possible for us to survive in the adult world. We learn that in order to get food - we must do that horrid job, not steal from the bank. Stealing = jail and pain.
Or our parents tell us that it is wrong. Creating a moral framework for us to function within. Good thing too, because if we all tried to steal - there'd be mass confusion, chaos and violence.

Good comparison to the Troika. The Troika are living in a fantasy world. Warren believes he can avoid the rules of adulthood. He fears it. It makes him feel weak and incompetent. And Warren hates to feel like that. He's super-bright - so he should be rewarded for it right? Unfortunately it takes more than intelligence to succeed in life, it takes a little street smarts and some moral fiber.
(Yeah - I know Warren does some horribly idiotic things - but for analysis purposes - let's assume he's intelligent.)
Buffy and KAtrina and Willow threaten him. They are women who challenge him. At first he likes this - he becomes attracted and believes himself in love with Katrina because she is bright and challenges him - until she rejects him.
And she rejects him because he built a robot - something Warren is somewhat proud of. "Not just a toy - a girlfriend." The women see this as horrendous. Xander and
Spike see it as cool. Willow takes his second creation the Buffbot and rewires it. She figures out his invisible ray and is able to thwart his plans to kill Buffy with it. And then the final charge - she outdoes him in the power department and rapes him with a bullet. She gets the respect of the demon community - when he's been working so hard for it and fails. Poor Warren - he reminds me of the boys in school who tormented those who were weaker than them to make themselves feel strong. Warren can't deal with the rejection. So has he locked his id away in a basement
because of it? Does staying downstairs make him feel safe?
Or has he unleashed his id and locked his morals in the basement instead? Dang world - I'm mad as hell and I'm just not going to take it any more! I'm going to enjoy myself no matter what the cost.

Buffy - I agree she has locked herself in childhood, slowly breaking free. Submerged. When we are depressed we want to do this. We want to crawl under the covers or back into the womb. I just finished a fantastic post by Rahael on this theme in which she stated something to the effect that you don't want to feel, you put on a mask and pull back from the world. And what caused the depression was Joyce's death, Buffy's was metaphorically submerging herself in depression, Bargaining through Grave was her recovery from it. I agree. I think we've watched Buffy slowly move out of her basement of depression this year. And in doing so, we've seen her deal with the id, that primal energy raging inside her. She's locked it along with her super-ego in that basement. And it's not until Normal Agai, we see the super-ego emerge. In Grave the id remerges as well, when she let's herself feel, let's herself want.

Curious to see your thoughts on Spike...you left him out of your post. You also skimmed over Willow. Possibly because I've done them to death? ; -)

Just a few thoughts...thanks again for the great response.

[> [> [> [> On Buffy, Spike, and Willow ... (S6 Spoilers) -- Exegy, 16:13:09 06/15/02 Sat

You have it right--the demon in Buffy's basement represents the twin impulses of the id: desire and fear. She desires to return to her childhood, and she fears to embark on adulthood. So she remains in the basement, not growing up. Literally not going up. Just as the Nerds of Doom remain in the basement, refusing to develop into men. They stay boys with toys ... they retreat into their fantasy world and avoid the responsibilities of reality. They desire the illusion of power their insulated fantasy provides; they fear the rejection of the outside world. They've run away from this rejection, turning to each other for support and acceptance. They're all stuck in the basement together, and when one threatens to leave ... that is not acceptable. If Jonathan leaves, then the others must admit their own stulted growth. It's safer to lock themselves in the basement. It's safer to lock their conscience away.

On Spike--well, he obviously dwells on the lower levels. His crypt is located belowground; he's made his dwelling-place the id. He's driven by passion; he risks his very sense of self for the end of physical union. And so we have the metaphor of the collapsed house--both Buffy and Spike lose themselves to their passion, leaving the walls of the self to come tumbling down. And in the depths, ugly seeds begin to germinate ... the products of their union.

Buffy recognizes the brewing darkness, and she breaks the union. She rushes out into the sunlight, leaving Spike alone in the wreckage of their affair. Alone in the wreckage of himself.

Spike's damaged, broken. He's been blown apart on the inside. Unfortunately, Spike doesn't acknowledge his demolished state. He accepts the bruises of the relationship (he sleeps beside the seeds of the unhealthy union, at home with the darkness, risking his own destruction every moment). He barely comments upon the beating Buffy gives him in DT, although the marks of her treatment are prominent upon his face. He accepts everything she throws at him, telling her, "Put it all on me." Buffy accepts his offer again and again, unleashing all her dark energies on Spike. Then, purged herself, she leaves him to wallow in their combined misery. She makes her way out of the basement alone.

When Spike attempts to follow her upward, we get the horribly wrecked scenario of SR. Spike has been beaten down; he has nothing to offer Buffy but a hollow incarnation of their former twisted relationship. He's broken, running on permanent repeat. He cannot let go of his need to possess her; he cannot see any other end outside of the physical union. He's locked still in the smashed basement, a demon with a limited worldview. The ego can no longer operate with this worldview, and so Spike seeks restoration. He wants to be whole again, even if being whole means accepting some of the weakness he has denied as a vampire.

Spike travels to Africa; he travels into his "heart of darkness" in order to be transformed. He enters the cave; he wanders into his black depths. On the walls are scenes of the most gruesome torture ... scenes that Spike does not even wish to consider. He's properly horrified. But he must battle the dark in order to be transfigured. He must suffer the most painful transformation in order to be "deserving" of Buffy. It cannot be any other way. And so a part of him dies in that cave, only to be reborn anew.

Maybe Spike can now emerge from his own basement, stronger for the experience.

On Willow--we see that she's the first to be dragged into the basement by Buffy. She's the one who bears the most damage from the events of this season, the one who's suffered the most from raising Buffy. How far she's fallen.

She falls because she loses her super-ego and her ego in one magic instant. Tara dies. The source of her morality and her sense of self has been destroyed. And note the location of Tara's destruction ... the upper room of the house Willow has appropriated as her own. The level of the super-ego.

Because it's always Tara that pulls Willow up. In Normal Again, it's Tara that arrives to save the day. Except Tara doesn't save the day. She's pulled down, incapacitated. Willow cannot look to her lover to pull her out of the darkness. She cannot always look for the "Tinkerbell" light to lead her out of the dark forest. This is a child's expectation, and such expectations are invariably shattered.

As Willow's dreams are shattered in SR. She's ripped out of the comforting womb provided by Tara, the surrogate mother. The illusion of safety vanishes. And Willow falls right back into her dark wood. She indulges all her negative impulses ... flaying Warren and bloodying up the trees of her own psyche. What a tangled undergrowth!

Willow's life has been shattered. But she doesn't succeed in her total destruction. The unconditional love of a friend halts her. She finally gives in to her grief.

As I finally give in to my numb hands. I'll try to check in tomorrow, but no promises!

Psst--thank you for answering my feedback! And you wrote a wonderful response to redcat. Much agreement here!

Exegy

[> [> [> [> [> KABOOM!! Fabulous posts, Exegy and shadowkat, truly wonderful work here! -- redcat, 16:23:13 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Ooooh I like what you wrote on Willow and Spike -- shadowkat, 18:55:06 06/15/02 Sat

"On Spike--well, he obviously dwells on the lower levels. His crypt is located belowground; he's made his dwelling-place the id. He's driven by passion; he risks his very sense of self for the end of physical union. And so we have the metaphor of the collapsed house--both Buffy and Spike lose themselves to their passion, leaving the walls of the self to come tumbling down. And in the depths, ugly seeds begin to germinate ... the products of their union."

You used that wonderful demon egg metaphor again. The ugly
seeds of their union which hatch into fierce crab-like monsters that attack Riley and Buffy needs to throw a grenade to destroy - literally destroying the bottom of Spike' crypt - the place of their union. When she comes back to tell him it's over - it's almost an afterthought and a kindness on her part. She truly ended it with the grenade. If she hadn't those eggs would have eaten up everything in sight, just as she and Spike were devoring each other in their mindless passion.

But she hasn't destroyed them entirely. The seeds of their union live on in her denial and lies. It's not until Entropy and Seeing Red that they are truly destroyed. Like a vampire turns to dust in the sunlight, so do the seeds when she exposes them to her friends and family.

Spike - the id is trapped in the blaze. You're absolutely correct when you state he can only offer Buffy a "hollow incarnation of their former twisted relationship". Without the super-ego or soul, he has nothing else. Knows nothing else. It's tragic, because she saw potential there, still does - it's why she takes her sister to his place in the next episode. But Buffy lacks imagination. She can't concieve what he has come up with. Makes sense - sort of distracted at the moment - with Willow, Warren, being shot... and she has been awfully self-involved this year.
But it's not just tragic, it's also touching - love has sent the demon ego in search of a soul. Sometimes it takes blowing up something to have renewal, sometimes it is darkest before the Dawn.

"Because it's always Tara that pulls Willow up. In Normal Again, it's Tara that arrives to save the day. Except Tara doesn't save the day. She's pulled down, incapacitated. Willow cannot look to her lover to pull her out of the darkness. She cannot always look for the "Tinkerbell" light to lead her out of the dark forest. This is a child's expectation, and such expectations are invariably shattered."

True - Willow like Spike has been depending on someone else to lift them up. Typical id. The child if you prefer. Buffy is like this as well - she wanted Giles to stay. She wants to go back to the friendly world of her friends and high school. She wishes that she didn't have to take care of Dawn. With Spike she can escape. In a way, Buffy and Spike are using each other. Just as Willow is using Tara. And in SR and later Villains both illusions are finally shattered.

Because the time comes in which we have to go it alone, get out on our own. The un