June 2003 posts
Inconsistency noticed in
"After Life" or The Official Nitpicking thread --
I just rewatched "After Life" on FX...love the ep, but
I noticed that when Spike sees that Buffy has clawed her way out
of her own grave, he says "I did it myself once..."
With the information given in "Lies My Parents Told Me"
it would seem next to impossible that Spike would have been buried
after Drusilla sired him....when he walks back in the house, his
mother claims to not have seen him in days...so obviously she
was not under the impression he was dead. So it seems that there
is an inconsistency here...i know im nitpicking, but what the
hell else am i supposed to do with no new eps?
What seems even sillier then this (because obviously the writers
can't remember every single line for future reference) is the
stupidity of having Spike and Dru already in the house in "Lies"
causing us to wonder how in the hell they got in...servant invited
them? Misc. dweller? Could have been simplified by showing Spike's
mom invite them in....wow....i am nitpicking...da well...anyone
wanna join in, could be fun...
[> Re: Inconsistency noticed
in "After Life" or The Official Nitpicking thread
-- Alison, 17:39:31 06/23/03 Mon
We talked about this in chat after LMPTM aired, and agreed that
a tradtionalist like Dru, who buried Darla after re-vamping her,
would certainly have buried Spike.
[> Fanwank 101 -- Kitt,
17:40:08 06/23/03 Mon
I figured that Dru buried him (like Darla, only more throughly).
Never bothered about the invite though - just figured they tricked
a servant, then ate him/her.
[> [> Do they have to
be invite in -- luvthistle1, 16:53:28 06/24/03 Tue
...considering that Spike lived there. If Spike lived there ,
will he have to be reinvite into his own home? I sure he had the
keys to the place.
[> Re: Inconsistency noticed
in "After Life" or The Official Nitpicking thread
-- Rob, 17:43:55 06/23/03 Mon
Dru could have buried him in a field somewhere, a private place
no one knew about. Doesn't have to be in a public cemetary. Dru's
a traditionalist that way, same way she handled Darla.
As far as the house goes, you basically answered your own question.
A servant must have let them in.
[> [> Re: Inconsistency
noticed in "After Life" or The Official Nitpicking thread
-- Nino, 17:47:03
Interesting...i don't recall the "Angel" ep in which
Dru buried the revamped Darla....anyone wanna share...thanks for
the info tho...
[> [> [> The episode
was Season 2's "Reunion"... -- Rob, 18:05:26
CORDELIA: Okay, here's the list of local cemeteries. Funeral homes.
GUNN: You telling me we gotta go to every one of these places
and start digging up fresh graves?
ANGEL: Drusilla will want to put the body in the ground.
WESLEY: Are you certain about this, Angel? Burial isn't necessary
for a newly made vampire.
ANGEL: It would be for Drusilla. She's a classicist.
CORDELIA: She's a loony.
ANGEL: Forget mausoleums. Stick with cemeteries. Something with
a view of the night sky.
CORDELIA: So just outside cemeteries, then?
Angel knows how it sounds and it's frustrating to him.
GUNN: Doesn't really narrow it down much, does it?
WESLEY: If it's just a burial she's after, one doesn't need a
cemetery for that, I'm afraid. Just dirt, really.
CORDELIA: Uh, still not narrowing. Whole planet pretty much made
up of dirt.
Angel rises, paces. Thinks out loud.
ANGEL: Maybe I'm looking at this wrong. Dru doesn't see this thing
as a death, but a birth. She talked about getting the nursery
WESLEY: Angel, I fear you may be trying to find a linear pattern
in the rantings of someone who doesn't think linearly -
Angel still pacing, still thinking.
ANGEL: Soil. Near the stars. She said she wanted to be near the
stars... She used to talk to the stars. She'd spend hours in the
garden at my place in Sunnydale, communing with the night sky
GUNN: (off-handed) Maybe she didn't mean baby nursery.
The others look at him.
GUNN: Well, you said she liked the garden. Plant nursery's got
the dirt, the view and it's more of a birth place than a death
place. Maybe look for one up high and that'll be it.
CORDELIA: Maybe look for one that has a relationship with Wolfram
and Hart -
WESLEY: Large firm like theirs, they may do business with a corporate
And as they turn their attention to this new line -
EXT. SKYSCRAPER - NIGHT (STOCKISH)
To establish. Camera, if possible, races up the side of this enormous
building to find the greenhouse there.
EXT. GREENHOUSE - SKYSCRAPER ROOFTOP - NIGHT
The greenhouse sits silently on the rooftop. Now we're PULLING
back... back to the ledge of the building. A DARK FIGURE poised
there, long black coat flapping in the gust.
Angel hops down to the roof, eyes on the greenhouse. STAKE in
hand. He crosses to -
INT. GREENHOUSE - NIGHT
Angel enters the greenhouse. And now we recognize it as the
place where Dru was preparing Darla's body. At one end, a mound
of fresh dirt. A grave. Angel approaches it as we bait the schmuck.
Angel clears away the thin layer of topsoil. Darla's face is revealed
looking peaceful beneath.
Angel is moved by this sight. Girds himself, clears away more
of the dirt. She's been dressed in a gauzy white gown. He (tastefully)
pulls away some of the fabric over her left breast.
Now he brings up the stake. Poised. He hesitates. This isn't easy
for him. He's about to plunge it in, when -
-- WHAM! Angel's hit upside the head with the business end of
a garden spade. He's sent crashing into the corner. He drops the
stake in the process. He looks up to see Drusilla grab up the
DRUSILLA: That's not a fitting gift at all for our newborn grandmother
WHAM! She clocks him with the spade again.
DRUSILLA: I saw you coming, my lovely. The moon showed me. It
told me to come into the 20th Century.
ANGEL: It's the 21st century, Dru.
DRUSILLA: (pouty) Is it? I'm still lagging.
She brings the garden spade sharply against his head again. Now
MOVEMENT from the grave -
Animates with a horrible ragged GASP, her eyes popping open, wide
and surprised and staring.
Reacts to that. He grabs the end of the spade. Angel and Dru struggle
Bigger, uglier GASPS now. She's in big birth pain. She sits up
in her grave, all the sentience of a wounded animal. She blinks
like Elsa Lanchester, her head darting around the place.
Angel and Dru struggle. The spade breaks in half, leaving jagged
wood in both their hands.
Dru sees the newly created stakes in both their hands. She lunges
at Angel. He sidesteps her, charges toward the grave with the
splintered end of the spade leading. He looms - but the grave
is now empty.
Angel whips around, just as a hand CLAMPS around his throat. Angel
drops the stake.
Darla stares back at him without even a hint of recognition. She
cocks her head to one side, animal-like -
Dru emerges from the greenhouse shadows.
DRUSILLA: Now everybody's home.
~~~~from the original shooting script from Psyche's
[> Why would Spike need
an invite? -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:36:53 06/23/03 Mon
It was Spike's home; he's automatically welcome, and he would
also have the authority to invite Drusilla in.
[> [> Re: Why would Spike
need an invite? -- Alison, 18:58:46 06/23/03 Mon
In the Prodigal Angel only entered his home after rising as a
vampire because his little sister invited him in. The rule of
invitation differentiates between a human and the vampire they
[> [> [> But Angel
was declared dead -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:11:33 06/23/03 Mon
Funeral and everything. Since Angel was declared legally dead,
he ceased to have a place of residence, thus he needed an invite.
In the eyes of the law and of Spike's mother, he was still a resident
of her house, and so didn't need to be invited.
[> [> [> [> Re:
But Angel was declared dead -- O'Cailleagh, 19:18:18 06/23/03
I don't think it has anything to do with legality. The point you
make about Spike's mother not knowing that he was dead is a valid
one, however it goes to help the theory that he and Dru were able
to trick their way in, because the servant (assuming that's who
let them in) didn't know he was dead, and therefore wouldn't have
had much of a problem with his reappearance.
[> [> [> [> [>
Let's skip legality, then -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:49:52
Angel's parents viewed him as dead, meaning they no longer considered
him a resident of their home, thus he needed an invite. Spike's
mother thought he was alive, so she considered him a resident,
making an invitation unnecessary.
Or, of course, there's the fact that Angel's father seemed aware
he was a vampire, and so might have taken precautions (it's possible
the anti-invitation spell we saw in "Passion" was well
known in Galway, Ireland).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> In an mid-S3 AtS ep... -- KdS, 03:32:55 06/24/03
... Loyalty I believe, one of Holtz's crew describes, we
are led to believe truthfully, how her son returned home after
being vamped, and she refused to let him in purely on suspicion
until the sun rose and he combusted.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Exactly, Audrey didn't even know vampires *existed*...
-- Scroll, 11:07:28 06/24/03 Tue
...until *after* her son burst into flames with the rising son.
So it's not that she knew he was dead and therefore didn't consider
him a resident of her house anymore. Her thinking didn't have
any bearing on the metaphysical rules her son Timmy had to obey
as a vampire.
Angelus' prodigy, Penn (the Puritan) had to be invited in to his
family's house after he was vamped, even though his family didn't
even know he'd been killed (or vamped).
My opinion is that even school dorms (i.e. Buffy & Willow's room
in S4) is also considered a place of residence and requires an
invitation to get in. (I realise this in particular has been debated,
but that's how I see the rules working.) I also see that vamps
don't need invite into other vampires' lairs. I don't think we've
seen any *explicit* example of a vampire being able to enter a
demon's lair without an invitation. This one could go either way.
But human dwellings definitely need an invite, for *all* vamps...
even Spike ; )
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The Freshman -- Masq, 11:56:28 06/24/03
Started the vampires-in-dormitories thing, in that it was the
first example of it, and the vampires went in and stripped Buffy
of all her belongings. Buffy was still very much alive when this
happened, as was Cathy (although she was technically a demon and
probably didn't invoke the invite-only magic).
So on my site, I decided to fan-wank this as "Dorms need
no invite". So Angel was under the illusion that they did
in The Yoko Factor, but he was wrong.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> I fanwank the other way... -- Scroll,
16:31:28 06/24/03 Tue
Considering Kathy had absolutely no worries about inviting Parker
into their dorm room in "Living Conditions", I figure
Kathy might've invited one of Sunday's minions in without even
realising it. Either that or it takes time for Buffy's dorm room
to feel like "home" to her (or Kathy), and thus gave
vamps free access those first few days/weeks.
Spackle, spackle. Heh, sorry Masq, I like my theory and I'm stickin'
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't think that works
-- Philistine, 18:16:34 06/24/03 Tue
Don't forget that Spike was able to enter Buffy and Willow's dorm
room in "The Initiative" - if you can rationalize that
one, I'd like to see it. (Seriously - I really would.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I think Masq's works
best. -- Rob, 18:34:53 06/24/03 Tue
Dorm rooms aren't exactly a "home" the same way an apartment
would be. Also, the school retains control of the room. At any
time, they can come in and do a search for drugs/alcohol, etc.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't think that
works -- tost, 19:21:30 06/24/03 Tue
Spike knocked Willow said "come in"
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> That's cuz Willow said
"Come in" when he knocked! -- Scroll, 20:37:10
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And no fanwankery
required! ;o) -- Rob, 09:58:44 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Or maybe... -- Rob, 11:40:19
...the fact that Cathy, a demon, lived in the room along with
Buffy, it overrode the ownership rule. A vamp can enter a demon's
abode w/o invitation, after all.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> I always thought... -- ponygirl,
13:06:42 06/25/03 Wed
That for large multi-person dwellings like a dorm, a person needed
to live in the place for a while. To personalize it and make it
Didn't Angel say something to this effect when he tried to enter
Fred's room in the hotel after she had decorated it? That since
she had really moved in, he now needed an invite? I figured Buffy
and Cathy, having lived there only for a couple of days, hadn't
really felt at home yet. I also use this to explain why Angel
was able to enter Faith's motel room - despite her having lived
there for months, she never really considered it a home. Reaching
I know, but there does seem to be some sort of psychological component
involved with these ideas of ownership - as in Touched when Spike
is able to enter a house after the owner has surrendered his ownership,
not legally, but in the owner's mind.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Makes sense to me, ponygirl!
-- Scroll, 14:26:28 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Especially since you say
the same thing above! Sorry I didn't read your post more closely!
-- ponygirl, 14:34:50 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Ooh, just thought of a solution -- Finn
Mac Cool, 12:38:26 06/24/03 Tue
What if Spike was the one who owned the house? While it might
seem more natural to assume his mother did, we can't rule out
that Spike might have been the owner. All of the cases mentioned
above involve vampires who once lived in the house needing an
invitation after vamping; none of them were actually owners of
How does this make a difference? Well, Buffy said in "Real
Me" that only someone living in the house could invite someone
in. Since vampires aren't alive, they cease to technically live
in the house, and so need an invitation. However, in "City
of . . .", we were shown that vampires are able to enter
houses they own without an invitation. Since ownership doesn't
necessarily entail the person be alive, if Spike owned his mother's
house, he could both enter it without needing an invitation and
invite Drusilla in as well.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Would it make a difference, though...
-- Rob, 15:53:19 06/24/03 Tue
...if Russell Winters had purchased the house after he'd
been sired? We don't really know whether he got that mansion before
or after, so we can't tell whether the fact he can enter w/o an
invitation is because if you owned something in life, you own
it in unlife, or whether he wouldn't be able to enter w/o an invitation
had he bought it as a human.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> I think Finn's referring to Tina's
apartment -- Scroll, 16:37:02 06/24/03 Tue
Russel got into Tina's apartment without her issuing an invitation.
He said he found her because he owned the building. But we *still*
don't know for sure that she hadn't invited him before, maybe
made an off-hand invitation the way Cordy did in "Room w/a
Vu". She wouldn't have thought anything of inviting him even
if she did her best to make sure he didn't follow up, since she
didn't know he was a vampire.
I'm starting to suspect that Joss is being deliberatly vague in
pinning down his metaphysical rules, or he's just really sloppy.
Either way, it gives him creative leeway so that he can "break"
his rules for plot purposes and nobody can cry foul.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think Finn's referring
to Tina's apartment -- Rob, 18:29:52 06/24/03 Tue
Oh, okay. That was never a problem for me, because I just assumed
he'd been there before, since their story did take place before
the episode began. There might have been a problem had they met
in that episode, but they did have history. The fact that the
two had an affair (or was that only implied? haven't seen the
episode for about 6 months) just led me to assume he would have
been invited in her place before. Or is it possible too that since
the landlord holds ownership rights over the apartment, even when
it is being rented, that that is why he could still enter the
place. We haven't in any other case seen a vampire who owns a
building. So even though the apartment is her home for the time
she is renting it, it is still his. Another vamp couldn't
enter it if not invited, but perhaps he could.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Btw... -- Rob,
18:31:47 06/24/03 Tue
...legally, I know this wouldn't be true. A landlord as far as
I know has no right to enter an apt. he's renting out. But perhaps
the mystical rules would still consider this his place.
[> [> [> That wasn't
Angel's home -- Xaverri, 19:41:23 06/23/03 Mon
Angel had been kicked out of his parents' home before he turned
into a vampire. That was no longer his home, so he needed an invite.
It was never clarified for certain whether or not a vampire could
enter their old home after turning. Regardless, it is very likely
that a servant answered the door with something like, "Oh,
come in Master William, your mother has been worried sick about
[> [> Re: Why would Spike
need an invite? -- O'Cailleagh, 18:59:44 06/23/03 Mon
Not if he was already a vampire by that point, which he was!
[> Re: Inconsistency noticed
in "After Life" or The Official Nitpicking thread
-- Artemis, 18:08:10 06/24/03 Tue
I guess I never thought of this as an inconsistency. I 've always
assumed that things happened in their lives that we aren't privvy
to. I guess you could call it fanwanking but when Spike said he
had dug his wasy out too I just assumed that an incident happened
somewhere in his 126 years where he got buried. Short cut/theory-
A mob - He's hiding- In a coffin- under a body- He gets buried
- He claws his way out.
It's just like we have to give ourselves a back story as to how
Giles went from Ripper to his stodgy self at the beginning of
the series. Yes There is the accidental death , but you have to
create much more to get him from hippie type, to almost scared
of women. I don't really see it as inconsistency as much as depth
of character. A back story unanswered. If that makes any sense.
WttH and the
Harvest: Friendship -- lunasea, 18:00:27 06/23/03 Mon
Now that I am back, here is just a bit of what I wanted to say
One day, I was looking for a particular part in "Welcome
to the Harvest," so I did a search for the word "friend."
Here is where the word appears in the script. Thanks to Psyche
for making this essay possible.
Joyce: Have a good time. I know you're gonna make friends
right away, just think positive.
Xander: Oh, me and Buffy go waaay back, old friends, very
close. Then there's that period of estrangement where I think
we were both growing as people, but now here we are, like old
times, I'm quite moved.
Buffy: Well, *I* wasn't! It's my first day! I was afraid that
I was gonna be behind in all my classes, that I wouldn't make
any friends, that I would have last month's hair. I didn't
think there'd be vampires on campus. And I don't care.
Buffy: Prepares me for what? For getting kicked out of school?
For losing all of my friends? For having to spend all of
my time fighting for my life and never getting to tell anyone
because I might endanger them? Go ahead! Prepare me.
Angel: Let's just say... I'm a friend.
Buffy: Yeah, well, maybe I don't want a friend.
Willow: No, we're just friends. We used to go out, but
we broke up.
Lyrics: I feel love with my friends / I feel love in my
songs / If I could just hold love / Then all the answers might
come / I said, oh, if we're all children of God / And we just
turned away / I got a lack of belief / I said a world without
faith / It's time we turn back around
Buffy: ...that the Harvest is coming. I know, your friend
Buffy: You know, I just wanted to start over. Be like everybody
else. Have some friends, y'know, maybe a dog... But, no,
you had to come here, you couldn't go suck on some other town.
Now for "The Harvest"
Buffy: I've got a friend down there. Or at least a potential
friend. Do you know what it's like to have a friend?
Another song, "Ballad For Dead Friends", starts.
Giles: You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that
when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're
looking at the thing that killed him.
That is some raw data. Now for the analysis.
My favorite moments in these episode are either Buffy/Willow ones
or Buffy/Angel ones and they all have to do with the same thing,
friendship. The big bad for season 1 is the Master, but in "The
Harvest" the monster of the week is Jesse, a potential friend.
Besides wonderfully introducing the characters, the main theme
of these shows is friends.
I will start by contrasting Buffy's interaction with Willow with
her interaction with Angel. Buffy sees friends as key to a normal
life. When Buffy yells at Giles about vampires on campus she mentions
academics, friends and fashion. When she yells at him again, her
concern is academics, friends and her life. As Spike will say
later in FFL, friends are key to Buffy. Joss sets this up right
from the premier.
Buffy's first and best friend is Willow Rosenberg. How she befriends
her shows that she is a bit more than superficial Cordelia. Cordelia
has gone from ditz to hero over on Angel, but I'm not sure that
was the original plan with her. All the other characters, even
in their immaturity, showed some sort of potential. If anything
this lack of potential contrasted her with Buffy. Buffy's potential
was shown with how she befriended Willow.
Willow was the shy nerdy girl, not what you would expect a beautiful,
outgoing fashion plate like Buffy to be attracted to. Buffy is
comfortable with Willow. She is uncomfortable with the way that
Cordelia talks about others. Willow is insecure and puts herself
down, but Buffy won't be like Cordelia and talk bad about Willow.
Later in the Bronze, Buffy shares her life philosophy with Willow
and tries to bring her out of her shell.
Contrast that with Angel. Angel isn't a potential friend. Buffy
thinks he is Giles' friend. The word friend is very important
to their interaction. He says that he is "a friend."
He really does want to help Buffy. That is why is in Sunnydale.
Buffy doesn't want him to be her friend. She wants normal friends.
In WttH we met Angel as this cocky guy who was probably some type
of demon hunter. The cross was a nice touch. Buffy is cold to
him, completely the opposite to how she is with Willow. The gift
is also nice because she is being such a bitch and he still gives
Then in "The Harvest" the cocky demon hunter gets a
bit of depth. As with their first exchange, there is a pattern.
First Angel engages in a bit of self-deprecating humor. Then he
gives her a back handed compliment (Angel/us is particularly good
at those). After that, they get down to business. In their first
meeting, Angel presents himself as an ally that Buffy turns down.
Compare that to what happens in "The Harvest." First
we get a bit of self-deprecation. Then he gives her a back handed
compliment. Before they get down to business, she 1. accepts that
he is going to be hanging around and 2. asks him his name. This
changes the tone of their exchange after that.
In the first exchange, he is cocky and covers his feelings very
well. In their second exchange, things get a bit more personal
between them. In WttH he wants to "kill them all" and
in "The Harvest" he mentions that he doesn't because
he is afraid. In the first one he says that he is a friend, but
when Buffy asks if he knows what it is like to have one, he is
hurt. She feels bad that she hurt him and they connect. He helps
her by telling her where to go, but he still isn't comfortable
enough to wish her luck. He whispers it after she is gone.
That's just a beginning of how WttH and The Harvest start to explore
the theme of friendship that will carry 7 seasons of incredible
television. There is plenty of other material in the shows such
Cordelia is the only major character that doesn't use the word
in either episode.
Lots of stuff about Jesse, such as his relationship with Xander,
the difference between Jesse and vamp Jesse, what Buffy being
unable to save him means.
Giles and his lack of friends.
Xander and whether he is a friend to Buffy (an interesting discussion
is at what point would you consider Xander to be Buffy's friend)
Willow and Xander's relationship
Also why the word appears more in WttH then it does in The Harvest.
How they each met and how that symbolizes their various relationships.
Ex: Xander hits on Buffy and picks up her stake, Willow and the
water fountain, Angel and knocking him flat.
More stuff about Angel and how Buffy was going to rescue a potential
friend, when that is really what he wants to be.
Contrast the human friendships and relationships with the vamp
ones, especially when it comes to the Master's relationship with
Luke and Darla.
Just some thoughts to generate discussion. So discuss.
[> Re: WttH and the Harvest:
Friendship -- O'Cailleagh, 19:12:26 06/23/03 Mon
"Cordelia is the only major character that doesn't use the
word (friend) in either episode"
Found this interesting, especially as the one point during theses
eps where she could have used it, she doesn't, and quite pointedly.
The actual line, of course, was "Excuse me, but I have to
call every person I ever met right now!"
[> Friendship and first
meetings -- manwitch, 20:37:55 06/23/03 Mon
Very interesting and very helpful for me. In a thread a week ago
lulabelle and I were discussing Buffy's "clinging' to normalcy
in season one. I tended to see it as narcissistic and see Buffy's
clinging to normalcy in a negative light. That she must let go
of that "normal" life she wants and embrace her spiritual
lulabelle was making the point that while Buffy is narcissistic,
she can't let go of that 'normalcy.' That part of that is what
makes her Buffy, and that she cannot allow Buffy to be erased
by The Slayer.
In the same thread I had talked about the statue of Shiva in Buffy's
dream and how the drum represents life in time and the flame represents
life in its eternal aspect. And in light of what lulabelle was
saying, I feel compelled to acknowledge that the Shiva statue
does not advocate primacy of one aspect over the other, but rather
that one must live in the knowledge of both. You are this
mortal creature. And you are also not.
And I think your "friendship" analysis really points
the way for me. Its through these friendships that Spike will
say anchor her to the world that she maintains her knowledge of
herself as Buffy alongside her knowledge of herself as Slayer.
So I think lulabelle is right.
While there is a narcissistic aspect to Buffy's desire to cling
to normalcy, valuing friendship will ultimately be the grounding
that makes her the slayer she is. Its her ability to incorporate
Buffy into the Slayer that makes her special.
Also interested in the whole idea of how they all met. Buffy meets
Giles in the library, the guardian of knowledge which she comes
She meets xander in the hallway, Xander, already having a crush
on Buffy (the heart is the organ of desire), behaves chivolrously
in helping her with her dropped stuff and ends up with her stake,
the thing she drives through heart's of those she wants to slay.
She meets Willow at the water fountain. Hmmm. Somebody help me
out here. I will offer that water is representative of the energies
of the subconscious, which one could call the spirit, and it is
flowing and bubbling and Willow is drinking it. Also, only when
meeting Willow is Buffy given a choice. Soulless, spiritless,
compassionless Cordelia is also present and Buffy seems to be
given the choice between following a soulless, spiritless and
compassionless path or following a flowing nourishing spirited
path. Willow is a tree, weeping willow contains a suggestion of
compassion, and also roots that are being watered at the very
fountain where Buffy meets her. The potential of spiritual growth.
Anyways. I'm just having fun. Somebody help me out with Willow.
[> [> Re: Friendship
and first meetings -- Valheru, 23:04:32 06/23/03 Mon
Buffy meets Xander in the hallway and Willow at the water fountain,
but they actually encounter her before that. Maybe that's the
encounter we need.
Xander is on his skateboard, maneuvering and zig-zagging through
the crowd, several times barely crashing into someone or losing
control. Then he sees Buffy...and promptly collides with the railing.
As the Heart, he is wild, uncontrollable, easy to distraction.
When the Heart sees something it wants (Buffy, who represents
the object of desire in this sense, not herself), it does not
think...and promptly gets broken. So at first, the Heart is a
raw, untamed thing that gravitates toward polar extremes of bliss
And then Willow shows up. Notice that Willow is introduced after
Xander, that she trails him almost puppy-dogish up the steps.
The Spirit follows the Heart, clinging to it and pleading for
attention. But the Heart already notices, and more, it asks for
guidance (Xander asking her to help him with math). The Heart
is as confused as the Spirit. Early in development, the two are
very symbiotic. But they both need to grow up, to mature. How?
Well, where are Xander and Willow going? To school, not only where
they'll learn, but where they'll get to know the member they never
knew they needed: Giles, the Mind.
[> [> [> Is Xander
the heart at this point -- lunasea, 10:31:29 06/24/03 Tue
Later on he becomes the heart, but I wouldn't give him that role
in season 1. His function tends to be to voice things that Buffy
cannot. I don't think at this point they are so neatly seperated
into heart-spirit-mind. That comes more as the show uses season
4 to transition to something a bit more mythical and less Party
Xander is purposely introduced on the Skateboard. He is showing
off and promptly gets knocked flat when he sees Buffy, just as
will happen with Angel. Both guys figuratively and literally are
knocked flat by Buffy. The difference is that Buffy physically
interacts with Angel and talks to him afterwards. Xander just
gets to see her.
This initial interaction foreshadows how the three will be for
a while. When Xander looks up, it is Willow that he sees and he
starts to chat with her, asking for her help. Willow tells Xander
to go to the library to get a book. It is in doing this that Xander
finds out that Buffy thinks she is the Slayer. Xander is later
drawn into the world of the supernatural because Willow is taken
by a vampire from the Bronze.
Willow knows that Xander is looking at another woman and as we
later find out she has this massive crush on him. Willow pushes
all that aside and agrees to help Xander. Willow is a big doormat,
as is shown repeatedly in this episode. Buffy is a doormat when
it comes to Slaying. Even though she doesn't want to, she has
to help people. (Being a doormat isn't always a bad thing)
Buffy doesn't really interact with either until later. Xander
want to "have you." He isn't one with the words when
he first meets Buffy, which is even funnier because he tends to
have this wonderful sense of humor and is great with words. Buffy
is polite and Xander is left holding her stake. When he helps
her later in "The Harvest" she hands him a cross. A
stake is a offensive weapon, the tool of the Slayer, of Buffy.
The cross is defensive. Even though the Scoobies are at "The
Harvest" just to get people out, Xander actually does end
up staking Jesse.
Briefly back to that stake that he picks up. He returns it saying
"And to return this. The only thing I can think is that you're
building a really little fence." We get his wonderful trademark
humor which he uses to cover up things he doesn't understand.
Willow's first eye contact with Buffy is at the water fountain
and right from that moment I loved Buffy. Before she actually
meets Willow, she meets Cordelia. Cordelia is representative of
old Buffy, Hemery High Buffy. Buffy rejects this in favor of the
softer side of sears that is Willow. In her first interaction
with Willow, Buffy doesn't talk. She still has one foot in Hemery
High and isn't quite ready for that in front of someone like Cordelia.
Still she doesn't feel right about how Willow is being treated.
Xander is more forward and his second meeting with Buffy involves
speech. Willow is shy and it takes a third meeting before they
actually talk and then Buffy initiates it.
The water fountain is the water cooler, where office gossip is
traded. Later when Cordy finds out how weird Buffy is, her first
thought is gossip. Willow is actually using the water fountain
to quench her thirst. Cordy thinks she owns it. The interaction
is as important for Cordy's character as it is for Willow's.
The three of them interact later at lunch with Jesse. So we have
a three tiered introduction. First they see Buffy, but she doesn't
notice them. Then there is some sort of brief interaction which
will set the tone. Next comes all three (four) of them getting
together. The first meeting of the Scoobie Gang will be held in
Now for Giles. Running through this whole thing is Buffy wanting
to keep her secret identity a secret. The stake thing with Xander
unnerves her a bit. When Giles knows who she is, she doesn't think
that he is her Watcher. Giles slams down a book that freaks her
out, just as her calling is. Possibly that was the Slayer's handbook.
Giles is all excited about meeting his own Slayer. When she flips
out, he tries to modify his methods. As he will say in "What's
My Line Part 2" "After meeting you, Buffy, I realized
that, uh, the handbook would be of no use in your case."
That is their first meeting. Like with Willow and Xander, their
introduction is a three parter. As much as Buffy hates her calling,
when she finds vampires on campus, she retreats to Giles. They
have a great exchange in which Giles tries to explain about the
Hellmouth. He also lays out the dynamic of their relationship.
Exposition man does a great job explaining the supernatural component
of the show.
What is important in that exchange is that while Giles is trying
to get Buffy to accept her destiny, Xander is in the stacks and
hears everything. Buffy totally blows off Giles. It will be Willow
in danger that causes Buffy to accept her calling. Buffy will
again blow off Giles in "Prophecy Girl" and will only
accept her destiny because Willow is freaked.
Xander will say that Buffy only thinks she is the Slayer. This
will later be examined in "Normal Again." In the exchange
where Giles is trying to get Buffy to accept things, Doubt (one
of Xander's roles that season) is present.
Before Giles' third meeting with Buffy, Buffy meets Angel, who
also tells her she has to accept her destiny. Angel, as a minor
character, gets one meeting this episode and one next. In his
first meeting, as with her first two with each Scoobie, their
dynamic is hinted at, but not quite set up.
By Giles' third meeting with Buffy, Buffy is friends with Willow,
but not really Xander. Buffy still blows off Giles, as she will
tend to do, but she does accept her responsibility when Willow
is in trouble.
One more character, Cordelia. I already discussed their first
meeting. Their second interrupts Buffy's lunch with Willow and
Xander. Cordelia is how Buffy finds out about vampires on campus.
Cordelia will later be the one first taken by the Annointed One
when they are trying to resurrect the Master.
Their third meeting really sets their dynamic. Buffy is looking
for Willow and she grabs Cordy. Cordy is her usual Queen C and
procedes to trash Buffy's reputation.
[> [> Re: Friendship
and the formless -- lunasea, 09:12:01 06/24/03 Tue
You are both right and both wrong. What Buffy needs to do is what
we all do in order to be whole. She needs to stop compartmentalizing
herself into Slayer-Buffy and Regular-Buffy. This is what will
ultimately undermine her relationship with pretty much everyone,
but most especially Riley as shown in "The Replacement."
This compartmentalization will be the main cause of her problems
for seven seasons. It will be resolved when she can no longer
do that because being Slayer is no longer abnormal. That is how
she reaches the formless. She has to transcend all the parts of
herself that are shown in "Restless." It isn't so much
an acceptance of the parts as it is a realization that the parts
To illustrate this I will use what Spike says about how necessary
friends are to Buffy in FFL. "The only reason you've lasted
as long as you have is you've got ties to the world... your mum,
your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but
you're just putting off the inevitable." The falacy of this
statement is illustrated in "The Gift" when it is her
brat kid sister that leads her to give her life. Spike's statements
have a kernel of important truth that Buffy needs to understand.
There is also always some sort of rebuttal to it, usually in another
show. For example, Love's bitch needs to be taken with love's
dog from "Beauty and the Beast." Angel and Buffy may
never be just friends, but neither are love's bitch.
The important truth is that the people in Buffy's life are important
to her survival. Spike is incapable of understanding why just
as he is incapable of understanding why Buffy has to turn herself
in in "Dead Things." In "The Wish" we learn
why the people in Buffy's life are important to her. Without them,
we get Wishverse Buffy. The people in Buffy's life don't tie her
to the world. They keep her humanity alive. Our humanity isn't
mundane. It is what ties us to the divine. It is what makes us
This humanity is important to both Slayer-Buffy and Regular-Buffy.
It makes her into the wonderful person that befriends everyone.
It also motivates her to be the Slayer. Her ability to love, her
humanity leads to her gift. Buffy thinks that being Slayer means
giving up her humanity and she fights so hard to keep it. As late
as season 7, in "Get It Done," she won't sacrifice any
more of her humanity to get more power.
There are several episodes where Buffy visits this perception.
Each time the show is consistent in what it says, being slayer
is not killing Buffy's humanity. It gives her wacked circumstances,
but unlike any other superhero, she cannot isolate herself in
the fortress of solitude and protect humanity from the outside.
That is what makes Angel and Buffy such amazing stories. There
is one line in "Becoming Part 1" that to me sums up
why these shows resonate more than your typical superhero. Whistler
says it to Angel and when great lines are given, it is never mentioned.
"This isn't gonna be easy. The more you live in this world,
the more you see how apart from it you really are."
This is where friends and normalcy come in. They are how Buffy
lives in this world. That part is just as important to being Slayer,
her spiritual calling, as it is to normal Buffy. That is because
there isn't a regular Buffy and a Slayer Buffy that can be split
in two like Xander was. There is only Buffy Buffy. She has barely
begun to understand that. Most never do.
We take her apart to try and understand her. She does the same.
The reality of it is there is only Buffy. At the end of "Chosen"
the various Scoobies and Faith are talking about the various aspects
of Buffy. Willow talks about all the new Slayers and changing
the world. Giles mentions another Hellmouth. There is talk about
the mall. Faith wants to sleep. Behind her are all the compartments
of Buffy. In front of all that is Buffy, just Buffy. She isn't
thinking about the world, Cleveland, the mall or sleep. She is
just Buffy now. She has started the formless. She doesn't need
to integrate her parts. She is the whole.
Western psychology is so big on individuation and integration.
The problem is when I say I am a mother, I am ignoring everything
that is not-mother. When I am Jeanie, I am open to anything. When
my kids are hungry, I don't think I am their mother, I should
feed them. I just feed them. When they smile, I don't think that
is my daughter. I just enjoy the smile.
The formless is nice. The series premier sets up how not-formless
Buffy is. For me the ultimate misdirect has always been the title,
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It isn't the silly name the is the misdirect.
It is identifying Buffy as the Vampire Slayer. There isn't a name
for her. It has been her focusing on this identity rather than
just being that causes her problems.
Journey 1.2 (The Harvest) -- manwitch, 20:17:28 06/23/03
Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.2
I apologize for still being behind. Its been a very busy time
for me. And then I had to go to Portsmouth.
But I did get around to watching The Harvest the other
day. I completely agree with whoever it was that said The Harvest
was campy. It does get a little silly at times, like Buffy giggling
over Xanders little quip while she's still fighting Luke.
Being a continuation of Welcome to the Hellmouth it continues
to use basically the same images and to explore the same themes.
But there are some points that I think are worth highlighting.
There is further emphasis of the distinction between body and
whatever it is that animates it. One might think of it as the
mortal and the immortal. I had mentioned this last week in relation
to the statue of Shiva that appears in Buffy's dream, a statue
that reveals both the aspect of life in the field of space and
time (living, dying, being born again) and the aspect of life
that is eternal. Again, the mortal and the immortal. In The
Harvest, we hear the first discussion of "the soul,"
and it clearly implies this same issue. There is what we are in
terms of our bodies, and there is what we are in terms of what
is behind them, animating them, giving them life. Giles describes
the birth of vampires with a story in which someone's body was
"infected by the demon's soul." And later, as The Master
prepares Luke for the ritual, he says, "My soul is your soul."
The acts of Luke's body will feed something that is behind it.
So again, particularly with the story Giles told about the origin
of vampires, there is this notion of a body that is inhabited
by something else, something that is distinct from the body, yet
nourishes it and gives it its character.
Now interestingly enough, both of these references to the soul
are at odds with what will later come to be canonical. Ultimately
it will be understood that vampires do not have souls. As of these
first two episodes, this does not seem to be the case.
But be that as it may, the general theme of the relationship of
mortal to immortal in a single being is what I want to emphasize.
Another point to emphasize is what I think is the theme of the
whole season. Buffy has a destiny-being the slayer. That destiny
is primarily spiritual. It is about her moral conduct,
her stance on issues of right and wrong, good and evil, her compassion
for other people, and quite explicitly her selflessness in this
commitment. She is not to receive accollades for this, not even
thanks. At least, these cannot be reasons for her moral conduct,
as they would up-end the morality of it. In these first two
episodes, Buffy explicitly and strongly rejects this destiny.
"I was a slayer. I'm retired," she says to Giles. "I
was afraid I'd be behind in all my classes, that I wouldn't make
friends, that I'd have last months hair. I wasn't afraid there
would be vampires on campus." She suggests to Giles that,
"I know, why don't you slay them." She immediately challenges
his authority as watcher, "Go ahead, prepare me," and
he sees his primary task as making her understand the importance
of her "sacred duty."
Now, The Harvest, can be seen in two ways here. In one
way, it is sort of a microcosm of the whole season. Buffy, having
been resistant to her charge, finally recognizes her duty as the
slayer and goes to perform it and save the world. And to a degree
that happens. But at the same time, The Harvest continues
to indicate that Buffy is not functioning as the Slayer.
At least not as the Slayer she needs to be. She initially rejects
Xanders help. She goes to save Willow in Welcome to the Hellmouth
and Jesse in The Harvest, because she feels directly responsible
for their danger, not out of deep sense of spiritual commitment.
The fact that she gets grounded by her mother emphasizes that
Buffy is still a child, unprepared for the spiritual responsibilities
of her adult life. Buffy defeats Luke through trickery and a stab
in the back, which is effective and all well and good, but should
be considered in contrast to her performance in Prophecy Girl
where she will stand literally toe to toe with the Master and
take him by the throat. And of course, that is the major distinction,
that in Harvest she is fighting Luke, not the Master. And
it's the Master that the episode reveals as symbolic of Buffy's
Buffy has come to Sunnydale to start a new life. She thinks and
wants it to be a normal life. But in reality, the opportunity
she has is to start life as a new sort of being, with a deep spiritual
commitment. Her resistance to being the Slayer shows that she
is afraid of this commitment. In a sense, she is blocking her
own spiritual power with her fear of what she might become and
of the normal life she might lose were she to make the commitment.
And so we begin to see Sunnydale as a landscape of Buffy's soul.
On the surface is her conscious life, normalcy, the life she wants
to live, the life she clings to. But underneath there is a dark
and mysterious power that is attempting to break forth into her
consciousness. The Master, he whose arising Buffy fears, is stuck
in an underground church, a house of the spirit, stuck there like
a cork in a bottle, preventing all the powers within from breaking
free. As a literal image, he is evil and bad and we don't want
the powers lurking behind him to break free. But at another level,
when seen as part of the landscape of Buffy's soul, it seems like
he is the personification of Buffy's fear and he represents, like
a dragon to Seigfried, the mysterious powers that Buffy might
reveal in herself if she did not keep them shut tight, as though
corked in a bottle. Those powers are evil only because Buffy fears
them. So the Master represents both a literal and a psychological
problem. Buffy must not only slay the Master to win the season,
she must also assimilate the power that he represents.
And as of The Harvest, she ain't there. As she says at
the end when asked if they won, "Well, we averted the apocalypse.
Give us points for that." But she does not answer in the
affirmative because they haven't yet won. They got a couple of
points for effort. That's all.
Finally, I would point out that Giles, Xander, and Willow are
already functioning as Mind, Heart and Spirit of Buffy. I don't
know when we will first get our incontravertible evidence that
they are meant to so function. I am not sure that the writers
are even aware at this point that Willow is Buffy's spirit. But
Giles guards the books, the storehouse of knowledge. He attempts
to train and to a degree control Buffy, just as the mind trains
and controls the body. His first comments to her are his knowledge
of who she is, and "I know what your after." And following
her rejection of the great tome he offers, he says, "I have
to make you understand." He is already functioning as the
representative of themind, the cerebral aspect of Buffy's spiritual
journey. And interestingly enough, while he knows she must go
on the journey, and even knows something about the journey itself,
he has no experience of it. When the action starts, Giles turns
to Buffy for guidance, not the other way around. As Joseph Campbell
has said, the mind is a secondary organ.
Xander is already showing his heart in his visible crush on Buffy,
his loyalty to his friend Jesse, and his courage to help Buffy
even though he is terrified. All of which are, metaphorically,
the same traits Buffy is exhibiting. She is frightened, but she
is showing loyalty to her "potential" friends. The crush
on Buffy part is interesting, and will be clearer later in the
season. Xander's crush on Buffy is basically a metaphorical representation
of Buffy's problem with her spiritual destiny. Her heart is turned
inward towards herself. She is sort of "stuck" on herself,
one might say, clinging to who she already is rather than embracing
the spiritual incarnation that she might be.
I think Giles and Xander are already performing these functions
deliberately, by which I mean the writers intend it.
I'm not so sure with Willow. The Willow/Xander dichotomy seems
in these first two episodes more akin to the Spock/McCoy dichotomy,
the scientific logical side and the emotional caring side, neither
of which, by itself, is competent to run the ship. An assimilation
of both is required, and that is, of course, Kirk. These first
two Buffy episodes, it seems to me, give almost no indication
that Willow is intended to be more than the smart scientific side
of Buffy. But nevertheless, as we see Buffy resist her spiritual
calling, in fact, exactly when she is arguing with Giles
about her resistance to it, what is placed in danger? Willow.
If Willow were to be thought of as a metaphor for Buffy's spirit,
and we know she eventually will be, than what we see in the first
episode is that by resisting her spiritual obligations, Buffy
risks killing her spirit before it even begins to develop. Buffy
is not ready to close that door, and moves quickly to save it.
She's not ready to commit, but she's not ready to lose it either.
As a last comment, I will just say that I like early Angel. I
don't see him as out of character at all. (I know at this point
we don't know about Angelus yet, but since we've all read ahead...)
Its as though he doesn't know how to relate to people except as
Angelus, so he lets his Angelus personality dominate even as he
tries to help her. But when she stumps him with the question about
having a friend, he softens right up. Boreanaz is at his best
when Angel is letting Angelus out a little bit or when Angelus
is masquerading as Angel. Its when he's doing both characters
at the same time that he really shines, much more than either
of them alone.
The Top Ten Percent (so far)
1. Welcome to the Hellmouth
2. The Harvest
[> Unifying layers of meaning
in BtVS -- lulabelle, 21:56:44 06/23/03 Mon
These posts are really great manwitch! I'm enjoying them so much
(as evidenced by the fact that last week's caused me to delurk
after almost 3 years). I like the analysis of characters as extensions
of Buffy. Its interesting because, when watching the show, its
necessary to find a balance between how much you take at a symbolic
level and how much at a literal level.
To take each character as purely a character in their own right,
is surely to miss the richness of the BtVS. It isn't your ordinary
tv show. Its symbolically dense and exists on so many levels.
But at the same time, Willow, Xander, and Giles are great characters
in their own right. They are not merely symbolic reminders of
the different parts of Buffy, that she as the hand, must forcibly
incorperate into herself. They are rich and appealing characters.
So how exactly do you unify all the layers of symbols as well
as the literal and character based levels of BtVS? How do you
put it all together so they exist at the same time without contradicting
eachother. Afterall, how can Willow only be one aspect of Buffy,
a metaphor for power, and also a fully developed person, who you
are able to identify with? One answer is to accept the layers
of meaning as seperate. The literal is differnt from the figurative,
and BtVS can be appreciated on many differnt levels.
But I think it can all be brought together if we view the show
from inside Buffy's mind. Through Buffy's pov we can see a person
as both a full human being and as a symbol simaltaneously. To
clarify this, think of your father. He's a person and you love
him and can appreciate him for who he is, but he is also, to some
extent a semi-unconscious symbol of authority, patriarchy, and
order among other things. The symbols he takes on vary throughout
your life as as you mature and the realtionship changes. Additionally,
at different times in your life, your appreciation of your father
changes, sometimes he is unidimensional, and sometimes he is more
understandable and real to you.
Is this perhaps the way we are meant to look at BtVS? And even
if we aren't meant to look at it in this way, can it give
us a better appreciation of the layers here. Characters play lkarger
and smaller roles deprending on their importance to Buffy. They
become less funny formed based on Buffy's feelings towards them.
Could this be why s1 Angel is such an enigma? As a 16 year old
girl she is having trouble understanding this older guy, and thus,
he comes accross unclearly to the audience, too?
Maybe this explains, for example, why s6 Willow is fairly unlikable
and uni-dimensional. This is how Buffy sees her because of her
anger about her ressurection and then later her need to see Willow
as an addiction (not power hungary) because that is the metaphor
that Buffy wishes to identify with, NOT the metaphor the
writers want to show us. I mean, ultimately, the writers didn't
make it about addiction. They made it about power for Willow.
Then why all the addiction stuff? Maybe it wasn't a mislead, so
much as Buffy's desire to perceive a certain symbol which she
needs to connect with at that point in her journey.
I'm not sure if this is how we're meant to see it, but I viewing
the whole series through Buffy's lense, gives us a new outlook
on it where we need to think less about what the writers are trying
to do and more about what Buffy is trying to do. And I think,
at least for me, it helps bring together the incredibly rich text
of BtVS. It also points out that within one human being there
is a constant struggle for understanding and connection, and shows
how astounding it is that within each person there can exist so
[> Another good one, manwitch
-- Valheru, 23:27:24 06/23/03 Mon
I really don't have much to add. These Spiritual Journey posts
are always enlightening, showing me parts of the story that I
never imagined existed. Only 142 to go!
I did want to say that your take on Angel was exactly how I saw
it. It really wasn't until this viewing that I realized who Angel
was at this point (Orpheus really helps). After 70 or so
years of minimal human contact, followed by 30 years of complete
aviodance, Angel's people skills really suck. When he meets Whistler,
he isn't trying to be social at all--what comes through is 100%
undiluted-by-personality Angel, so he doesn't seem much different
from the "recognizable" Angel. But in WttH/The Harvest,
he's trying to be a people-person. His only experience at being
outgoing is from boorish Liam, then a long time as Angelus,
so even though he's trying to be a nice guy, he really isn't.
It's kinda sad.
Buffy's comment about Angel not having friends is extremely cruel
in retrospect of knowing Angel's history up to this point, but
it actually serves to help him. His demeanor becomes less and
less Angelus-like as S1 progresses because he desperately wants
to be friends with Buffy and since she doesn't like his attitude,
he learns to ease off. By the time Surprise comes around,
the Angel persona has completely shed all the vestiges of Angelus,
almost as if it isn't until then that Angel clean-slates himself
so he can start growing again. Which makes his reversion in Innocence
20:43:40 06/23/03 Mon
I know I usually introduce these things with a funny quote from
one of the characters, or a quote about them. But I'm really busy
trying to get tomorrow's matchup and bracket ready. I'm thinking
it still is going to be pulled off. Although, significant portions
of the site, like the index page, links, and a rules page I wanted
to have up, will just have to wait until the coming weekend. Unless
everyone just abuses the rules, but the idea of that is just ridiculous.
Good News: vote
Since I don't have many links up yet, the region of today's vote
can be found here.
If you can't vote, let me know by posting here right away, I haven't
tested a lot of this yet. Let me know what you think so far, just
keep in mind I'm trying to build this thing as I post it.
Tiebreakers, I know who you are, email me.
[> That first link isn't
working for some reason; try this -- JBone, 20:47:11 06/23/03
[> [> Handicapping the
"Slayer" Region -- cjl, 10:43:47 06/24/03 Tue
(1) Buffy Anne Summers/Joan vs (16) Vi
Absolutely no contest here. Buffy is tough, seasoned, an experienced
fighter--and she's the freakin' hero of the series. Vi is toast.
The Buffster's self-imposed emotional isolation in S7 and anti-SMG
factions might hurt her in later rounds, but she's got to be the
odds-on favorite to win the region. (ODDS to win the region: 4-5)
(3)Faith/Prisoner 430019 vs (14)Kennedy
Kennedy is one of the most universlly despised characters in the
Buffyverse, an astounding accomplishment given her status as lesbian
superhero and Willow's SO. Faith will clean her clock. Depending
on how matchups go, Faith has the best shot to knock off Buffy
in the regional finals, but I wouldn't bet on it. (ODDS: 4-1)
(9)Captain Daniel Holtz vs (8)Principal Robin Wood
The board is split on Principal Wood, and his negatives will prove
too much of a handicap against the supreme vampire hunter of the
Buffyverse. If our contestants were judged on verbal presentation,
Holtz would obliterate the competition. Unfortunately, he's going
to have to settle for one-victory-and-out.
(11)Caleb vs (6)Agent Riley Finn
A case of sour apples vs. rotten oranges. The small but vocal
segment of Riley supporters will give him an easy win over the
dixie-fried cliche that is Caleb, but Solider Boy ain't going
nowhere. (ODDS: 100-1)
(5)Joyce Summers vs (12)Justine Cooper
Buffy's momma will kick Slayer wannabe Justine's ass. Joyce might
climb to the regional semis--but no farther. (ODDS: 50-1)
(7)Mayor Richard Wilkins III (10) Lindsey McDonald
A superb matchup, with Road to Sunnydale winner Richard Wilkins
against perennial fan favorite Lindsay McDonald. If Christian
Kane did a promotional concert for ATP during the contest, old
Tricky Dick wouldn't stand a chance; but I'm still betting our
politically savvy Mayor will pull out a close election and head
for the semis. Slight chance he could overcome Faith and/or Buffy
and win the regional finals. (ODDS: 15-2)
(13)Kendra vs (4)Charles Gunn
Bet big on J. August Richards' street-smart demon hunter/black
Bond steamrolling over Bianca Lawson's island slayer 'tude and
inexplicable accent. Gunn is well-liked, but doesn't have the
support to overcome the heavy hitters in this region. (ODDS: 25-1)
(15)Amanda vs(2)Wesley Wyndam-Pryce
Wesley is the dark horse to win the region. Unlike the previous
contest, both BtVS and ANGEL are in play, so his status as Buffy
S3/ANGEL S1 dork recedes into the distance and his enormous appeal
as Scruffy Wes comes to the fore. Poor Amanda doesn't stand a
chance. (ODDS: 5-1)
[> No way is Duke a number
4 seed! -- manwitch, 21:11:27 06/23/03 Mon
I had not seen the bracket before. I don't know if you had already
posted it. But in keeping with traditional whining about seedings,
What's with Wesley??!! There's an upset worth picking. And where's
Giles? Is he in the NIT or something?
Perhaps he's in a different bracket, but Wood, Wesley, Buffster,
Kennedy, Amanda, Vi, Faith and Kendra are all in this one. Sounds
like the Watcher should be here.
By the way, is this just a popularity thing, or is this like thunderdome.
Is it just do we like Wesly better, or are we actually supposed
to imagine his girlish screams as Amanda kicks his ass?
By the way, I voted and it worked fine.
[> [> this is but one
of four brackets -- JBone, 21:36:30 06/23/03 Mon
This is something that I expect to put into my rules, ect... page.
But Giles is nicely seeded, trust me. I really hesitate to get
into this before the whole tournament is laid out, but, I was
trying to keep characters within a seed or two of where they belong,
while keeping them in a bracket that they do belong in. Of course,
some seeds are in brackets that they have no business in, mostly
so I could seed them at a certain level. Like I said, this is
something I hoped to address in a few days.
As far as popularity vs thunderdome, that is for the voter to
Have fun, and thanks for voting.
[> [> [> Besides...
00:19:39 06/24/03 Tue
The real fun is reading the comments made by the voters! (Shameless
[> Tough Bracket --
Rook, 23:38:57 06/23/03 Mon
I predict a Buffy/Mayor showdown at the end, but with Faith, and
Wes to get past, the East is really anyone's game.
and the Bringers -- O'Cailleagh, 08:23:17 06/24/03 Tue
Apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the year, it was probably
before I came back!
Now that season 7 has finished here, Sky One has taken to showing
key episodes of Buffy, and last week they showed 'Amends'. Since
then a couple of things have been bothering me. Namely, the first
appearance of the Bringers shows them engaged in a ritual in which
they are chanting, kinda tricky when you're missing your tongue.
Secondly, the First Evil/Jenny manages to be quite corporeal,
at one point 'she' removes Angel's hands from his ears.
I'd been wanting to rewatch this ep since S7 began for the foreshadowy
goodness, etc, but now that I have, I find its just added to the
plot-holiness of the past season.
I suppose one could reason (I do so hate the term 'fanwank'!)
that the Bringers only recently started losing their tongues,
as a means of stopping them from revealing the plan through torture,
or even to set up the link between Andrew and the Bringer hive-mind.
But why show the First as being able to touch when it is supposed
to be non-corporeal?
[> I've fanwanked that...
-- KdS, 08:35:57 06/24/03 Tue
And the similar differences in Bringer appearance and fighting
ability between Amends and S7 by postulating that there
are different castes of Bringers, and that the ones in S3 were
the mystic caste and the ones in S7 the warrior caste.
[> Re: The First and the
Bringers -- JCC, 08:52:40 06/24/03 Tue
I watched Amends too and noticed the First touching Angel. It
also seemed to put it's hand on his arm. I suppose that it put
it's hands up but Angel brought his down from his face before
it touched him. That would make things easier. :)
[> Also: The Bringers can
bring forth "spiritual manifestations", and ?'s about
Jasmine and The First -- Q, 11:49:36 06/24/03 Tue
I watched Ammends last night on DVD. One thing that struck me
is that Giles gave a speech about the Harbingers saying they were
The First's grand priests, and they could use magic to bring forth
"spiritual manifestations"-- this suggested to me that
the people we were seeing from Angels past were not *an entity*,
but spiritual manifestations brought forth by the bringers chanting.
This would suggest that for The First to do any of its taunting,
the bringers would need to be constantly holed up somewhere summoning
spirit manifestations, and would not suggest that the first was
an entity that could take any dead form.
It was a little confusing, but did not ruin anything on the show
One thing I REALLY wish would be cleared up, was the main point
of Ammends. Why did Angel come back? Both Jasmine and The First
have taken credit for it. That is great, but I want a tighter
explanation, and I want to know what Buffy's ring had to do with
Watching Ammends, the theory that makes sense to me is this. Jasmine,
being at the time a "power that be's", brought forth
Angel for the purposes she explains at the end of Angel season
4. The First, knowing about ancient propehcies and destiny, figures
Angel as the "ensouled" one who could wear the amulet
that will eventually destroy her plans, so she sets out to either
turn him evil and destroy Buffy at once, or have him die in the
process. Jasmine steps in with the magical snow and saves him,
to bring forth her destiny.
This all would work fine-- but if it is going to be Buffy's FINAL
season, and the first is back at the SAME TIME as the second thing
taking credit for bringing Angel back(Jasmine)-- shouldn't they
have tied the two series' together A LOT better last season? It
just feels so full of X-filey holes, doesn't it?
[> [> About spirit manifestations
-- Finn Mac Cool, 12:41:27 06/24/03 Tue
"Spirit" can mean a lot of things. It can mean ghosts,
as you seem to assume, but it can also refer to certain inhuman
supernatural creatures. Perhaps the Bringers use their skill of
summoning spirit manifestations to make the First Evil manifest.
They wouldn't need to summon the spirit of each dead person it
appears as, they'd just need to summon the spirit of the First.
[> [> [> But...
-- Nino, 16:24:59
...wasn't the whole point of season 7 that the First was not corporeal
and that it had no way of taking physical form...lots of the eps
hinted that the ultimate plan of the First (and the one I wish
ME had come up with...) was to make it self a corporeal entity...I
think this would have been a great idea, especially since the
final battle seemed kind of random and unconnected with the storyline
we had been following...after the whole Beljoxa's eye fiasco,
it would have been awesome if the First's plan to make itself
corporeal had to do with Buffy being alive, very specifically...I
dunno, just kind of rambling...but I don't worry too much about
the "Amends" factors, since Joss didn't flesh out the
First's character until this season, he didnt feel that he should
be held back by things that happened way back when...i just kinda
let the whole first-touching-angel thing slide...
-- Q, 11:36:28 06/24/03 Tue
In the early seasons, I would judge an episode on whether it was
part of the arc, a "mythology" episode, or if it was
a stand-alone, monster-of-the-week episode. Stand alones never
faired as well, so this was my first "disappointing"
episode. I'm a little more accepting of stand-alone's now a days,
though they still do not hold NEAR the urgency of the "mythology"
episodes. As a "side" episode, with very little sense
of urgency, "The Witch" holds up pretty good. Compared
to more important episodes, it doesn't. There was much to like
*We see the first non-vampire, "monster-movie monster"
episode, and see that there will be many obstacles on the hellmouth.
This was a fun discovery. The introduction of Amy is good, as
she becomes a rather fun side-character (although what ever the
hell they did with her in season 7 is beyond me! I'll get to that
later, when we discuss "Killer in Me" though).
*The love triangle between Buffy-Xander-Willow intensifies, as
both Willow and Xander are given the "just one of the guys/gals"
line by their love interest, and we see how deeply devoted the
trio are to each other already.
*Giles gets knocked out for the FIRST time (I'll be keeping a
*The body switching uber witch story was very intriguing and compelling.
*The metaphor of living up to demanding parents expectations while
they relive their wonder years is played out beautifully by not
just leaving it with Amy/Catherine, but by also playing it up
with Buffy/Joyce and the yearbook staff conversation.
*Giles claims it was his "first casting", which we later
find out was a complete lie, thus complicating the facade of our
* Cordelia is brilliant again! her "You saw that right?"
pleadings to the judges followed by her menacing threats in Americas
creepiest girls locker room were priceless!!!
One thing I had a hard time with was putting a finger on the exact
moment that the bodies were switched. It is obvious to me that
Amy is Catherine during the Catherine the great speech in front
of the trophy case. Later, when Aura's mouth seals up all Twilight-Zoney,
"Amy was as shocked as the rest of us". This obviously
makes us believe in her innocence. But later that day we see her
demanding "mom" to do her history report and casting
a spell with Buffy's bracelet. The scene with Aura's mouth sealing
up was obviously a red herring. I don't mind red herrings if there
is a tight explanation that becomes obvious later (see J.K. Rowling-the
perfect red herring MASTER!) , but if it is thrown in and left
a mystery, it loses it's punch. So if Amy was already Catherine
at that point (and she was), why did she looked so surprised when
Aura's mouth sealed up?
Jumping to the future-In "Normal Again", Buffy admits
to Willow that her mom had committed her to an institution briefly
in L.A. after she had seen her first vampire. Never has there
been a line uttered in Buffyverse that I wish more had not happened!
That admission ruins so much for me! One example-in this episode
Buffy makes a comment about being a "vampire slayer"
to her mom, and then laughs it off as a joke. If she had really
been committed for this sort of thing, it could never have been
shaken off as a joke! Joyce would have taken this far too seriously!
This will bug me forever!
[> Maybe Catherine was just
acting shocked, to keep up her facade -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:44:44
[> From my notes at the
"Annotated Buffy": -- Rob, 13:19:57 06/24/03
"CONTINUITY CHECK: In the sixth season episode, Normal Again,
Buffy reveals to Willow that when she had first seen vampires,
she had told her parents, who sent her to a mental health clinic,
after which she never talked to them about the situation again.
These words were ambiguous enough, however, to not say whether
Buffy had merely told them that she had seen vampires, or had
also told them that she was the Slayer. Either way, however, it
does not create continuity flaws as serious as viewers first suggested,
upon seeing Normal Again. If Joyce does know that Buffy thought
she was the Slayer, this "what?" could be her, upset
for a moment that Buffy is mentioning this, yet again, and then
quickly shrugging it off. And if she doesn't know about the slayer
part, she may just be taken aback by the "vampire" reference
reoccuring. And then, of course, there is also the theory that
Buffy's asylum revelation may have just been part of the effect
of a hallucinatory drug she had been exposed to via a demon's
claw. Choose your own explanation. They all work."
[> [> And there's always...
-- Rook, 21:58:52 06/24/03 Tue
My own personal favorite fanwank, that ANY continuity conconflicts
that involve the characters memories a S1-4 episode Vs a S5-7
episode can be written off as a byproduct of the Dawnverse.
Spike saying in S7 that he'd being held longer in the initiative
than we saw in S4? Implanted by the Monks to replace removed memories
of Buffy being an only kid.
Buffy's stay at the Mental institution? Implanted by the Monks
to make her believe she had a sister, and was sent there because
her parents didn't want her sister exposed to her "insanity".
Ahh, sweet, sweet denial.
[> [> In the comics....
-- Ray, 08:26:47 06/25/03 Wed
They're currently doing a story called Slayer Interrupted. Buffy
ran off with Pike to Las Vegas and when she got back her parents
were ultra concerned and read her diary. Of course these flashback
stories being told in the comics incorporate Dawn into the them.
[> [> [> Interesting...I'll
have to check that out. -- Rob, 09:56:58 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> And
I have. Just read the first 3 chapters. What a great read!
-- Rob, 12:45:18 06/27/03 Fri
[> Regurgitating the Witchy
threads... -- The Voynak demon, 14:25:53 06/26/03 Thu
[> Catherine, Joyce
-- dream, 11:48:07 06/27/03 Fri
RE: Catherine. It's pure fanwankery, of course, but maybe she
wasn't entirely in control of her magic? Maybe this curse wasn't
supposed to happen right then, but her anger took control? It
would be nice as a set-up for Willow's dark magic control problems
As for Joyce - I appear to be one of the few people whose families
were dysfunctional enough to make Joyce's behavior seem normal.
Joyce had decided the asylum incident was not to be discussed.
She might have modified this decision if, for example, her daughter
were screaming at her about vampires. But an off-hand comment
while her daughter seems to be okay isn't worth dealing with.
She won't be provoked into discussing it by something that minor.
I mean, her daugher burned down a gym, a joke about a sensitive
topic hardly rates, right?
I actually really liked the way the earlier part of the series
fit in with Normal Again - but then again, I've known a number
of mothers like Joyce.** She's fascinating - her denial and her
compassion are in constant battle. I wish we had seen more of
**I am also used to family members not discussing things. I had
to watch almost the entire first season of Six Feet Under before
I got that the major theme was repression. These people didn't
seem repressed to me, they seemed positively chatty. They talked
about lots of things - and with family members, no less!
about The Witch -- Anneth, 12:24:15 06/24/03 Tue
I'd like to start by explaining that I have a deep and partially
irrational love for this episode. Basically because Buffy sings
Macho Man. Effervescent SMG is a thing of beauty; I love the Buffybot
and I love CheerBuffy. That aside....
Third in the series, The Witch confronts the Scoobies (Willow
refers to them as "the Slayerettes"... can't say I'm
sad that didn't stick!) with two sticky new issues: parental relations
Basically, the Witch is about the age-old mother-daughter conflict,
though the father-child relationship also comes into play towards
the end of the episode. The Amy/Catherine conflict serves to highlight
the problems that Buffy and Joyce are having. Essentially, Buffy
and her mother spend two thirds of the episode miscommunicating,
to a point that actually ends up hurting both. The conflict is
resolved (for now...) with Joyce realizing that she can't possibly
understand Buffy, and Buffy forgiving her for that.
The Giles/Buffy relationship also gets a shove in this episode;
Giles cares for, and at one point physically carries, Buffy while
she's incapacitated. Once Buffy recovers, she doesn't snip at
Giles for being fussy, a fact which is emphasized by her episode-ending
conversation with Amy. Amy complains that her dad nags her and
fusses after her, and then confesses that she loves it. Thus,
the burgeoning father/daughter relationships of both Amy/Mr. Madison
and Buffy/Giles end the episode positvely.
The other issue that The Witch throws into the BtVS mix is this:
what happens if Buffy can't fight or win? This remains a huge
concern throughout the show's run. Buffy is Sunnydale's, and the
Scoobies', bulwark, their first and strongest line of defense,
but she can't win every time. The Witch is the first episode in
which the others are forced to confront this issue. In a display
that presages events throughout the rest of the show's history,
Xander and Willow turn to Giles upon discovering Buffy's incapacitation,
even though they have a vague idea about who and what caused it.
This action also sets up a surrogate-father relationship between
Giles and Xander and Willow; they, like Buffy, soon come to Giles
for help with life's problems.
What happens when Buffy's incapacitated really deserves its own
essay; I'm only trying to cover the basics. I apologise for not
giving the subject due measure.
Anyway, those are the two biggies from the episode, at least as
I see it. Some other noteworthy moments:
Willow's first encounter with witchcraft. "Do you ride a
broomstick?" gives me giggles.
Buffy's squicked by the apparently graphic fertility statue, an
indication of her sexual immaturity.
The Buffy/Xander/Willow triangle receives its first real treatment.
My only major quibble with the script is that Catherine-as-Amy,
as first introduced, is written as just being nervous about trying
out for the squad and fearing letting her mom down. As Amy-Amy
would have been. But if this is Catherine-as-Amy, not Amy-Amy,
it seems to me that her reaction might be different; more jazzed,
less terrified and negative. I realize that the script is written
this way to emphasize Buffy's problems with her mother, but it
bugs me every time I watch the episode.
Anyway, I do really love this episode, and Xander's incredibly
dorky, ever-so-slightly freaky bracelet gift (they've known each
other for how long? And he's giving her an engraved bracelet?),
and Willow's expression when Buffy tells Xander that he's just
like one of the girls, thrill me to my very bones. Every time.
That and Macho Man.
[> er, make that "thoughts"
-- Anneth, 12:27:05 06/24/03 Tue
[> Re: Initial thought about
The Witch -- CW, 14:11:59 06/24/03 Tue
I've been slowly relishing my season 4 DVD's as I go back and
watch these early eps. Watching Hush just before The Witch is
a little startling. Hush is such a perfect jewel. The Witch is
crude and at times sloppy, but it's still fun... Cordy doing her
cheerleading as Charisma did in real life... And it's a gold mine
of future material. Xander worries about being invisible to Buffy.
He talks about being killed by a railroad spike... It's ordinary
tv cliche at this point; Buffy, the hero, is the one who is perceptive
enough to figure out what happened to Amy. But, it's one of those
things that started growing at this point, that didn't seem at
all ordinary within a year or two... The body switch and even
the language, it's talked about in, gets repeated in season three,
and not in a way the made us say 'well, they've run out of ideas.'
Some of Willow's first words on the subject of spells are "Can
I help you with your witchcraft?" even if she isn't seroius
about it. Even Buffy singing. I bet SMG wasn't thinking she'd
ever sing and dance through a whole ep!
Some things do change. Giles says it's his first spell. We find
out later that's a major lie. In this episode, witchcraft is limited
by spell books rather than the power of the caster. Still for
a stand alone, it's a lot of fun.
[> Switches and doubles
-- mamcu, 19:08:27 06/24/03 Tue
Another big theme it starts is switches and doubles, something
that really builds throughout the series. Here it's especially
horrible, since it's related to bad parenting, but we see it many
more times in various forms: Faith and Buffy switching bodies
in Who Am I, Xander split into two bodies in The Replacement,
all the doubles of Doppelgangland and The Wish. And it's sort
of echoed by the robots--Warren's girlfriend and Buffy--the alter
egos (Ripper, Angelus, Bloody William), and finally by the many,
many possessions, culminating in The First in S7.
[> Re: Initial thought about
The Witch -- shambleau, 10:38:46 06/25/03 Wed
nodnodnod on the effervescent Buffy thing. Ecstatic Buffy tackling
Willow after Willow says she'll be going to UCSunnydale is a brief
little moment that bowls me over too.
And here's one that people may not agree with: Buffy playing football
at the beach with Riley and then coming over to the group for
a hamburger. She's just so up and happy!
[> And what about that bracelet?
-- manwitch, 17:56:51 06/25/03 Wed
What's the story on that? Is there an etiquette for that sort
Obviously, Buffy had not a doubt what Xander was doing when he
gave her the bracelet. Even the most idiotic person would no they
were being claimed and marked. So by wearing it, she's kinda saying
yes, right? But apparently she doesn't want to say yes. Is no
an acceptable answer? Are highschool girls permitted to say to
a friend boy that gives them such a thing, "No, I don't want
to wear that. What are you thinking?" Or does the risk of
ruining the friendship put pressure on her to wear it and look
for that moment to immasculate him and redefine why she is wearing
it, thus putting the pressure on him to accept the new definition
or risk the relationship?
Its like a little dance to keep putting the pressure on the other
party as to who will risk ruining the friendship. You just keep
pretending you didn't get Kruschev's other communication. And
eventually everyone quietly agrees.
I was like, Buffy, don't put that on. You don't want this guy's
cheezy bracelet. But I guess Buffy's a whole lot nicer than I
[> [> Don't forget about
Angel's cross though -- lunasea, 18:20:45 06/25/03 Wed
Buffy did accept Angel's gift and later does wear it. What does
that mean? The show is constantly paralleling Xander and Buffy's
relationship with Angel and Buffy (or vice versa). If Angel gives
her something at this point, it better be followed up with Xander
doing something similar. Buffy's romantic arc is great.
In WttH: she gets the cross from Angel, a nice misdirect.
In the Witch: she gets cheesy bracelet from Xander.
In Teacher's Pet: she will get Angel's jacket
In Never Kill a Boy on the First Date: she goes outside of both
of them for her first date on the show.
In The Pack: Xander tries to rape her while possessed
All that leads us into Angel
Since Xander is an actual character, we get a lot about his feelings,
which will climax when he asks Buffy out in "Prophecy Girl."
Xander is given credit for saving Buffy, but it is only by working
with Angel that he is able to do this. It is interesting how these
two characters relate to each other. Later, in Graduation Day,
Xander's maturity will be shown when he goes over to Buffy at
the end and lets her know that Angel made it out all right.
Season 1, Angel is but a plot device, but when that plot device
gives something to Buffy, Xander can't be left out, hence the
totally inappropriate gift in The Witch.
[> [> [> Re: Don't
forget about Angel's cross though -- manwitch, 18:40:48
But I'm talking about what's up so I know what's going on when
I give cheezy bracelets to highschool girls. I'm nearing 40. I'm
gonna have to know this kind of thing pretty soon.
[> [> [> [> Cheezy
bracelet's okay early in the mating dance. Tiffany? wait until
at least sexual conquest #2.;) -- Briar Rose *lol @manwitch,
23:02:53 06/25/03 Wed
[> Preserving for the safety
of witches, and puppies, and Samhain -- FE, 14:27:25 06/26/03
[> Preserving for the sake
of breaking Anneth's streak of 341 straight posts archived within
10 minutes -- Random, 15:32:07 06/26/03 Thu
to thank manwitch and Caro -- lunasea, 13:59:10 06/24/03
All this talk about archetypes (or rather the forms they take)
coupled with manwitch's recent posts accompanied me to nappy time.
Here is what I woke up with. It is was supposed to be on spiritual
journey 1.2, but I still wanted to share, so now it is its own
Something about the word assimilate just didn't feel right to
me. You do a great job explaning some pretty complex (or simple,
depending on the perspective. Let's just say it is the simplicity
on the other side of complexity) spiritual concepts and relating
them to the show. I really enjoy reading your posts. However something
just didn't feel right. Here is what I came up with.
We look at individuation as putting together a puzzle. We discover
parts of ourselves and put them together to make a whole. That
is the perception and we often speak about mind-heart-spirit as
if they are separate every bit as much as Giles-Xander-Willow
are separate. But they aren't.
What we are really putting together is a broken mirror. With consciousness,
we shatter that mirror. The pieces each still reflect something.
When we look into the broken pieces, they still function and we
see various parts of us. We see an eye in this piece. Some hair
in that one. A finger in another. We don't realize this is just
a broken mirror and mistake it for an actual puzzle that needs
to be put together. We see ourselves as broken and needing to
be put back together.
The reality is that we are whole. We cannot be fractured. Only
the mirror can be. If we want to be whole, all we have to do is
step away from the mirror and realize that we are. Buffy wasn't
the one that was split in "The Replacement."
That is part one of this realization.
Part 2 is best illustrated by what happens to Angel in "Reprise/Epiphany."
If all we have to do is step away from the mirror, why don't we?
The answer is a combination of fear and ignorance. In "Reprise"
Angel hits bottom and wants to lose his soul. In "Epiphany,"
he finds that he cannot. When Angel tries to lose his soul, he
isn't looking in the mirror puzzle. He is at such a point of dispair
that he doesn't think of himself at all. All he wants is to stop
the pain. He isn't vampire or champion. It is one thing for him
not to be able to lose his soul in this moment of dispair.
It is quite another for it to lead to his epiphany. Prior to this
Angel is so afraid of what he is that he can't see what he is.
He stares at pieces of the mirror puzzle because he is afraid
of what he thinks is the whole picture. When Angel gets away from
the mirror, he is only left with what he is. It is like what he
tells Buffy in "Becoming Part 2" Now that's everything,
huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away...
and what's left?
When we lose all those components, the physical (as represented
by weapons), the heart-mind-spirit (as represented by Buffy's
friends) even hope, what is left? Buffy's answer is dead on. ME.
The whole. That is what happens to Angel in "Epiphany."
He loses everything and finds what he really is, what he really
believes. He was so scared of this, because he was only seeing
himself in the broken mirror and wasn't able to see his total
self. When he got away from that, he found out he wasn't such
The hard part isn't putting the mirror together. It is realizing
that it is a mirror and what we are interested in is actually
just reflected in it. It is stepping away from that mirror and
just being who we are.
Snyder -- JBone,
21:52:12 06/24/03 Tue
Still no fun quotes, they'll probably come next week when I'm
hopefully ahead of the game. Buffy won a landslide over Vi, I
won't have the results up on the site tonight, though. On to the
On a side note to d'h, if you emailed me your vote, I did not
receive it. Send it to the email link I have on my name on this
post. Not the blowout that just ended, the new one.
[> Re: Glory vs Snyder
-- matching mole, 09:41:14 06/25/03 Wed
This is a tough choice because while both are quite entertaining
they are unusually one dimensional characters given the length
time we are exposed to each of them. I actually forget which one
I voted for now. Glory. I'm pretty sure it was Glory. She has
minions while Snyder, despite revelling in bureacracy, usually
seemed to work alone. Very odd.
I should say that I think I voted. After I clicked on my choice
the screen went blank and stayed that way for a very long time
until I got bored and went elsewhere.
I must say that the demon region has almost all of my favourite
characters from both shows. There are agonizing decisions to be
made in the first round!
[> Handicapping the "Demon"
Region -- cjl, 10:33:39 06/25/03 Wed
(1) Cordelia Chase v. (16) Phantom Dennis
It seems almost unfair to pit Cordelia against the best boyfriend
she's (n)ever had, but that's how it goes on the Road to the Apocalypse.
Cordy may get a ton of sympathy votes for the whole S4 character
assassination/coma thing. Look for her to exorcise Dennis in short
order, and quickly climb to the Regional semis. However, given
the extremely stiff competition in this region, her number one
seeding guarantees nothing after that. (ODDS to win the region:
(9) Principal Snyder v. (8) Glory/Glorificus/The (Original) Beast
I would have bet money on the weasel-y yet strangely charming
Principal Snyder triumphing over that gasbag goddess Glory, but
I am apparently wrong, wrong, wrong. Glory is stomping Snyder
into the turf with her stylish and well-coordinated shoes. No
matter; her Skankiness will never make it past the first round.
(11) Maggie Walsh v. (6) Krevlorneswath/The Host/Lorne
I still hold it against Lindsay Crouse for abandoning Joss mid-season,
forcing him to promote Adam to big bad; Buffy S4 almost never
recovered (see below). The Evil Bitch Monster of Death will be
charmed into total submission by Lorne, who will triumph with
a smile on his face and a seabreeze in his hand. Lorne's a long
shot to win the Region, but I wouldn't count him out. He has no
negatives and the sweetest singing voice this side of Ella Fitzgerald.
(7) Adam v. (10) Detective Kate Lockley
Detractors have always said that Elizabeth Rohm's Kate Lockley
had the emotional range of a palm tree, but I thought she was
an interesting character with a fascinating love/hate relationship
with Angel. My feelings for Adam definitely come down more on
the "hate" side; even though I found his gruesome scientific
curiosity occasionally amusing, he was easily the least compelling
big bad in Buffy history. Negatives up the wazoo on both sides,
so this could go either way--but whoever wins will be crushed
in the next round. (ODDS: 100-1)
(5) Daniel "Oz" Osbourne v. (12) The Groosalugg/Groo
Aw. I have a sentimental attachment to both these guys. Groo went
from one-dimensional Prince Valiant parody in ANGEL S2 to wistful
loser in love in S3, fortified with an extra helping of snark.
(Bad Cordy!) Unfortunately, he's completely outclassed by Oz,
who's the dark horse (dark wolf?) to win this region. (ODDS: 5-1)
(3) Aud/Anyanka/Anya v. (14) Merle
Sob. A luminous comic presence and now a genuine Buffy martyr,
Emma Caulfield's Anya (Our Lady of the Neglected Storyline) could
challenge Cordy for sympathy votes, and has to be considered a
favorite to take the region. She'll probably beat the stuffing
out of poor Merle--which would make it a pretty typical day for
Merle. Cordy/Anya regional final, anyone? (ODDS: 5-2)
(13) Skip vs (4) Winifred "Fred" Burkle
Before "Inside Out," I might have given Skip a ghost
of a chance against the Adorableness that is Fred, but since he
was outed as just another mercenary thug for Higher Powers, he's
lost his "swell guy," blue collar appeal. As for our
favorite physicist, never underestimate Adorableness as a vote
getter--but I think she'll wilt in the face of major competition.
(15) Gwen Raiden vs (2) Alexander "Xander" Lavelle Harris
If this were my contest, it would be Xander vs. Willow in the
tournament finals--and I'd declare a tie. (Happy dancing all around!)
But it's not. With his hardline anti-vamp stance and diminishing
plotlines, Xander has had it tough the past few years, and his
once-burgeoning legion of fans has diminished. He'll get by electro-babe
Gwen Raiden (that is, if he doesn't stop to check out her ass),
but he might be done in by the women He Done Wrong. (ODDS: 5-1)
[> [> Masterful analysis
above; also "ass" = :) -- pr10n (g-o-0-O XANDER!),
14:52:43 06/25/03 Wed
spoiler from Conversations with Dead People (and a rant too!)
-- Earl Allison,
10:15:33 06/25/03 Wed
Got this off TWoP;
"I think it was clarified at the Harvest con this past weekend
that in CWDP, it was FEJoyce that appeared to Dawn, not GhostJoyce
or some FGJoyce."
I can't say how much this, coupled with the "Spike was seeking
his soul" interview from last season, ticks me off.
I already put forth that ME simply didn't seem to care this last
season -- I think this helps makes the case, IMHO.
I can't assume that it was painfully obvious that Joyce in CWDP
was the First. I can see a case being made, but not that it was
obvious -- so why wasn't this addressed in some meaningful way
(aside from Willow's claim, and given what she saw in Cassie,
I understand it, but the wholesale destruction and flying objects
-- when the FE was INTANGIBLE, tends to run counter to Willow's
claim) during the season?
Surely one or two of Buffy's bitter speeches could have been shelved
I can't think of but one or two items that have caused this much
fan assumption in the past; Xander's "Lie" in S2, and
maybe the speculation on the Slayer Line after Buffy's death in
S5 (allegedly the Line ran through Faith, but was never addressed
onscreen in S6 or S7).
Maybe I'm being unfair, but I think this speaks to ME's (lack
of, IMHO) ability to tell clear stories. Fans still argue over
Spike's soul quest -- was it legitimate, or did Spike seek to
get the chip removed?
Take it and run.
[> Or...(and I think this
is more likely)...Joss decided, in the end, to leave it ambiguous.
-- Rob, 10:20:30 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> If he did ...
-- Earl Allison,
10:31:44 06/25/03 Wed
If that is true, why (and I admit, I wasn't at the 'Con, so maybe
it's wrong) say it was supposed to be the First?
I admit, my view isn't particularly mainstream, but I think if
you are giving items out later, either you didn't do your job
in telling the story originally, or you did it very poorly.
The close of S6 is a good example, IMHO. I can't reconcile that
JM was asked to play the scene as if he were getting the chip
out with contentions that it was a clever mislead.
I saw Spike wanting the chip out (the bitch comments added to
my perception), and even now, I don't know how I feel about the
interview -- clever reveal? Or introduction of new character at
last page of murder novel?
This seems, to me, to be in the same vein. Since the Joyce issue
never panned out either way, I think it might have been better
to simply say nothing, and let fans make up their own minds.
But once something is said, it needs to be weighed against what
was seen and heard.
The poltergeist-like manifestations fly in the face of what we
saw and heard that the First could do, so I do have some issues
with the claim ...
Issues that could have been resolved in the actual show. Since
they weren't; some, like me, might conclude poor Quality Control
due to the discrepancies.
I don't claim to be automatically right, but I also don't think
I'm automatically wrong, either :)
Take it and run.
[> [> [> Re: If he
did ... -- Rob, 10:45:58 06/25/03 Wed
The poltergeist-like manifestations fly in the face of what
we saw and heard that the First could do, so I do have some issues
with the claim ...
We also know though that there were other demons/magicks, etc.
on the First's side, from Hallie, who at the beginning of the
season said that everyone in the demon world is choosing sides.
I don't think it's too far out to postulate that another magical
being (witch? sorceror?) working for the First created this illusion.
And who, btw, said this at the con? Because unless it came from
Joss' mouth, along with an explanation for why they didn't answer
it on the show, I wouldn't put too much credence in these words.
As far as I'm concerned, if it didn't appear on the show, it didn't
happen. I personally like the ambiguity the way it is. They never
answered it on the show, therefore I don't accept any answer divulged
to people at a con.
I personally like the ambiguity. The audience can decide for themselves
whether they believe this could possibly be a heavenly vistitation
or not. With the glowy white robes and shiny light, it seemed
almost too heavenly to be real, like a cliche of what an evil
being might create to give the illusion that it was from heaven...or
maybe that's being too cynical. I haven't yet decided for myself
whether I believe it's the First or not.
The main argument for it being the First is that it was trying
to sow seeds of untrustworthiness for Buffy in Dawn, leading to
Dawn turning on Buffy at the end of "Empty Places."
Others claim that it isn't the First, because sending Buffy out
of the house actually ended up helping her in the end. However,
the fact that this plan seemed to fail didn't mean it wasn't the
First. Most of the First's plans failed because it doesn't understand
humans. It can do impressions of their dead, but doesn't understand
when it goes too far. In that very same episode, the First messed
up by going too far with Willow, until Willow realized that Tara
would never behave like this. And then of course there's the possibility
that the First wanted Buffy kicked out of the house so
that she'd be separated from her friends, easier to corrupt. Still
haven't decided either whether the First wanted Buffy to
have the Scythe or not. I think it's a possibility that it did,
since it told Caleb not to go after Buffy right away. Perhaps
it was planning all along on abandoning Caleb and using Buffy
as its vessel in the end. Which ties in to Darby's too quickly
archived theory that that is why the First approached Buffy in
"Chosen" after she was stabbed.
If the "she won't choose you" actually referred to Buffy
trying to send Dawn away at the end, I think it's more likely
that it was the real Joyce.
So, after all this rambliness, I guess I'll just restate what
I already said: I don't care what was said at the con. There is
no proof either way whether this was the First or not, and I kind
of like it that way.
[> [> [> [> KS
also said so. -- Sophist, 11:09:12 06/25/03 Wed
In the current BtVS magazine, there's an interview with KS that
includes this quote about CwDP:
"I knew that I was mom, but I also knew that The First ,
the evil one, was speaking through me. It also felt kind of brief,
because we did it with me in front of a green screen."
[> [> [> [> [>
Again, though, wasn't confirmed on screen. Although I lean
towards "The First" anyway. -- Rob, 11:14:18
[> What difference would
it make whether we found out or not? -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:28:53
Whether it was the First Evil as Joyce or if it was the real Joyce,
what does it matter? What matters isn't what she was, but what
she said, and whether it was true. Considering that the First
Evil often uses the truth to its best advantage, knowing that
it was the First Evil wouldn't make much difference in that category.
So, again I say, why does it matter?
As for Spike's soul quest: after the demon gave him a soul, why
would we believe that Spike wanted the chip out? Yes, Spike never
mentioned specifically what he wanted, so some fans took this
to mean that the demon interpreted his words differently than
he meant. That obviously ignores "Villains", where the
demon clearly shows an ability to read Spike's mind (while this
technically shouldn't be possible, there's a precedent for it
on "Angel", and I do have a post planned explaining
how I think there might be different types of mind reading in
the Buffyverse). Since the demon could read Spike's thoughts,
Spike didn't need to say he wanted his soul back, the demon just
knew. Frankly, I've never understood how people could see it otherwise.
[> [> Regarding the Spike
quest -- dream, 12:20:47 06/25/03 Wed
I'm with Earl Allison on that one. The Joyce thing, in my mind,
doesn't matter. It works in the storytelling if left ambiguous,
and I tend to ignore everything that isn't on-screen. Unfortunately,
the Spike quest was mentioned on-screen, so we have to deal with
The reason that some people (myself included) have a problem with
that scene was that they find it impossible to reconcile the way
Spike was acting with a deliberate attempt to go get a soul. I
mean, I EXPECTED Spike to go looking for a soul before the episode,
and I spent that scene thinking - huh, I guess they're going to
go the other way with this. That's unexpected. Then, of course,
they didn't. I rewatched, and just couldn't accpet that Spike
would be acting that angry, calling Buffy "bithc" and
so on if he intended to go get a soul. I suspect that James Marsters
wouldn't have believed it either, hence the need to lie to him
about his character's motivations. The fact that they felt they
needed to lie to him is, I think, a very bad sign.
So we have Spike with a soul, having just acted as if he was angry
and determined to get his chip out. My natural assumption was
that Spike thought he was asking for his chip out, but the demon
(yes, mind-reading - we only know that humans can't read vampires,
no issue with that) knew that deeper down, Spike really wanted
to have a soul. Considering the complications of Spike's character,
I was perfectly willing to believe that he was confused enough
not to know what he really wanted, and there's a lovely fairy-tale
quality in asking for what you think you want, and getting what
you really want, which is far messier, but also far more beautiful.
Alas, this is not what was intended. According to an interview
(which I was going to ignore) and then a later mention on the
show itself (hich I can't), we have to accept that the ranting,
angry, "bitch"-calling Spike was lpanning out going
in search of a soul. I can't accept that, and as a result, I found
that segment (unfortunately, a highly important one) to be one
of the biggest failings of the whole run of the show. [Want the
others? Sure, why not? Giles, season seven, right up to Chosen;
the failure to introduce the idea that Willow might be mistaken
in defining her problem with magic as addiction during season
six itself; Wesley's character (though I hear he's much better
on Angel); the overpopulation of characters in season seven, leading
to the downplaying of several major characters; and the werewolf
costumes. Some of these are not trivial, particularly the werewolf
costumes, but considering all the chances they took, it's not
a very long list.]
[> [> [> Re: Regarding
the Spike quest -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:17:14 06/25/03 Wed
Well, Spike wanted a soul to get Buffy, not because he actually
liked the idea of having one. Thus he'd probably be a little pissed
at her, since Spike has often held Buffy responsible for his feelings
and what he does as a result of them. "Once More With Feeling"
is a good example; Spike's on his way to save Buffy's life, but
still calls her a bitch and says he'd be free if she died. Same
dichotomy between Spike's words and actions arises in "Villains"
[> [> [> Well said.
I agree on every point -- Sophist, 13:31:05 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Regarding
the Spike quest -- lunasea, 13:36:06 06/25/03 Wed
JM has this tendancy to play Spike very sympathetically. If they
wanted Soulless Spike to actually act soulless for a change, I
can see why they told JM to play it as if he was getting the chip
They wanted the act of getting his soul to be in line with how
a soulless creature would act. It had to be in line with the obsessive,
possessive nature of vamp love. To give the kind strong Buffy
(imagine if RRK wrote those episodes. Violins would have played
in the background as Spike made his declaration of love) what
she deserves just wouldn't have fit with this. To take the "love"
as shown by the word deserve and to couple that with bitch turned
it into that obsessive, possessive creepy vamp love.
The thing to keep in mind is he isn't in search for his soul,
the means to be good. He is looking for change and sees the soul
as a means to that. He admits in "Beneath You" he didn't
know what he was getting himself into. You also have to keep in
mind what does Spike think that Buffy deserves. He is mad, mad
that she won't let him dote on her like he did Dru. He is willing
to do anything for her and she completely rejects that. That makes
him damn mad. For him to turn into a defanged puppy about this
would have been completely out of character. The object of his
obsession isn't there. He isn't acting for her. He is expressing
The other thing to note is how his words change throughout the
trials. He talks about bitch (after having his demonhood questioned),
(interesting when he sees the demon with his hands on fire he
says son of a bitch), slayer and then Buffy. I really liked this
transition and thought it was done very well. Keeping the anger
while modifying the words was a great way to convey the emotions
It seems completely in character, the character I see. It might
be out of character with the romantic Spike that is good for Buffy
that some see. It might be out of character for the noble man
that was seeking redemption. Since it wasn't written or played
that way, I would venture that romantic Spike and the redemption
angle are what isn't there.
Just me though.
[> [> [> [> With
lunasea and Finn -- shambleau, 13:58:13 06/25/03 Wed
Nothing much to add,though. Resentment and obsession in equal
measure, leading to getting a soul for "that bitch"?
That's my Spike. YSMV
[> [> Re: What difference
would it make whether we found out or not? -- Earl
Allison, 13:42:34 06/25/03 Wed
I was one of the people who saw what he thought was Spike wanting
the chip out -- that's not an attack on you, nor is it meant to
imply I thought you attacked me. That's what I thought I was being
shown, from the situation, body language, and word "bitch."
I also felt ... vindicated might be too strong a word ... maybe
justified? when I read that JM said he was told to act as if the
chip was coming out -- in other words, he wasn't told Spike's
motivations, either. Now, I don't have any links, so I cannot
support that, just to be totally honest :)
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I admit that freely,
and have said so here repeatedly, in prettier words. Now, that
being said, I generally can see a clever twist after it is revealed,
and will do the equivalent of
smacking my forehead or going "nooooowww I get it,"
That didn't happen with the chip/soul bait-and-switch (my words,
not anyone else's). I felt it was a cheap reveal along the lines
of introducing a new character in the last page of a murder mystery
-- to me, it wasn't clever.
Now, reading things here after the fact, I could see where others
saw that Spike wanted a soul, but that was posters here, who are
intelligent and drew lots of good conclusions and analogies. Me?
I saw a cheap GOTCHA! that people smarter than I saw through,
but that didn't make it less cheap.
Conversely? I couldn't see how anyone could forget that Spike
was an evil, soulless monster in S5 or S6. That being said, I
don't begrudge anyone who saw differently.
It's all subjective, but I still contend that it is the storyteller's
job to clarify, not mine. If I (and in some cases, MANY people)
misinterpret something that dramatically, maybe the fault for
not being clearer is the
writing/execution, and not the fans.
Or, to steal a GREAT quote from Shao Lin (Captain Simian and the
"Until I develop telepathy, I must rely on ACTUAL communication."
Take it and run.
[> [> [> Re: What
difference would it make whether we found out or not? -- manwitch,
18:28:27 06/25/03 Wed
The official Buffy the Vampire Slayer site at UPN always posted
synopses (synopsises) of the episodes after they aired. The synopsis
for Grave on the official site ended unequivocally with the story
that Spike went to get the chip out and was surprised.
Of course, I know from my own place of employ what kind of disconnect
there can be between the people doing the web information and
the people creating the product. But it was clear that the web
people wanted the audience to feel Spike had been surprised or
at least interpreted it that way themselves.
[> Re: Potential spoiler
from Conversations with Dead People (and a rant too!) -- Chris,
15:05:52 06/25/03 Wed
It was Jane Espenson at the Harvest con this past weekend who
was asked the question about Joyce, whether or not she was FEJoyce
or not. As stated above, she answered in the affirmative (I read
this in several first hand accounts of the con on the More Than
Spike board). She also stated the same thing during her Succubus
Club interview. In addition, Kristine Sutherland stated in the
Buffy Magazine #8 June/July 2003, that Joyce was the FE (pg. 61
"It was really terrifying and Michelle [Trachtenberg] did
a great job of being in the center of all that and really creating
the terror of that situation. For me as an acress it was just
sort of strange being a ghost. That's when you're not quite sure
who you are. I knew that I was mom, but I also knew that The First,
the evil one, was speaking through me."
[> Re: Potential spoiler
from Conversations with Dead People (and a rant too!) -- shambleau,
16:45:04 06/25/03 Wed
See, I don't remember that many fans assuming that Joyce wasn't
the First. Most at the time assumed just that. There was debate,
yes, but a genuine ghost!Joyce warning Dawn not to trust Buffy
at that particular time has just as many believability problems.
Wouldn't she warn Dawn about the First, or give her advice in
how to bridge the gap? Why would ghost!Joyce so clearly be doing
something that helped divide the scoobs?
As I recall, the stage directions for the scene included the observation
that the plant in the room had now shriveled, but that no emphasis
was to be put on that. Since the dead Christmas trees were how
Buffy found the First's lair in Amends, it seems clear that the
First was there. I'd always assumed that, but after I read those
directions, there was no doubt.
It doesn't rule out fanwanking that something else was there contending
with the First, though. Whatever told Dawn to get out and hurt
her, could have been something trying to protect her. It's a stretch,
I know. Still, even if the First was moving the furniture around,
I have no trouble fanwanking that its powers are a little more
extensive than the Scoobs are aware of. Their knowledge of vampires
was always flawed, there could be something that the First can
do they don't know about.
At least if Joyce was the First, it makes sense that Buffy not
choosing Dawn didn't happen. Just another fakeout to sow doubt.
[> [> But the prophecy
did come to pass (Spoilers for "Chosen") -- Finn
Mac Cool, 17:25:43 06/25/03 Wed
Buffy sent Dawn away from the battle in "End of Days".
She didn't choose Dawn to be one of her soldiers and tried to
get her to safety. What the prophecy didn't tell us was that Dawn
would turn the car around and join in whether Buffy wanted it
Joss interview up at Trollops -- ponygirl, 11:19:17 06/25/03
Just back from a long weekend so sorry if this was mentioned already,
but I must plug the two part IGN interview up on the Spoiler Trollops
as a really good read. A bit different from other interviews in
that it focuses almost entirely on Joss' school experiences. Also
some interesting stuff on being alone:
I lived my life feeling alone. That's just the way of it. I
always did. As soon as I was old enough to have a feeling about
it, I felt like I was alone. No matter how much I loved my family
- and I actually got along better with my family than I think
most people do - but I just always felt separate from everybody,
and was terribly lonely all the time. I wasn't living a life that
was particularly different from anybody else's, a pariah - it
wasn't like I didn't have friends, but I just... we all of us
are alone in our own minds, and I was very much aware of that
from the very beginning of my life. Loneliness and aloneness -
which are different things - are very much, I would say, of the
three main things I focus on in my work.
...I wanted to be a part of a group. But I felt like Luke Cage
in the Fantastic Four, you know - no matter what. That's just
always been the way. You know, very often you'll be in a group
and you'll discover that every single person in it feels like
they're the one on the perimeter. It's like everybody has their
own moment that's going on, some more than others. It was just
a huge theme for me, and it was a huge theme that sort of crystallized
Nothing very spoilery up on Trollops right now, so virgin eyes
should be safe! Sadly my Fantastic Four knowledge isn't good enough
for me to get the Luke Cage reference, but I think that this adds
a bit of fuel to the Joss as Buffy argument, at least in the sense
of the Slayer being alone.
[> One of my favorite Joss
quotes, that never makes any lists -- lunasea, 11:32:39
Whistler from Becoming Part 1 to Angel: This isn't gonna be easy.
The more you live in this world, the more you see how apart from
it you really are.
[> Part II on the interview
is up now, link inside -- s'kat, 11:43:37 06/25/03 Wed
And there are no spoilers in it. It's just about Whedon's
education and personal influences. That's it. No talk about Btvs
or Ats directly.
[> [> The original source
is (link included) -- lunasea, 12:04:09 06/25/03 Wed
Next installment will be up tomorrow. It will go into Roseanne
and the genesis of the Buffy movie.
[> [> [> Part III
is now available - link inside, includes a sample -- s'kat,
19:22:15 06/25/03 Wed
And again no spoilers - all about Whedon. Goes in depth on Roseanne.
And a host of other things.
A little sample:
"IGNFF: What was Roseanne like, going in at that time? They
were on, what, the fourth or fifth set of producers by that point?
WHEDON: No, it was just the second set, and it was total chaos.
I mean, it was like a studied chaos. Which was good, because it
meant that I got to write a bunch of scripts.
IGNFF: Whereas, on other shows, you would have been locked in
the writer's room as a junior writer...
WHEDON: You know, I remember one of my father's friends saying,
"Have they let you start to write a script yet?" I was
like, "Yeah, I'm on my fourth." Because they just...
they had nobody. I ended up writing six scripts that year. Interestingly
enough, the other staff writer I know who's done that was Marti
Noxon. She did it in the second year of Buffy.
IGNFF: Because it was just complete chaos?
WHEDON: It wasn't not chaos. It was slightly more controlled chaos,
but it was really chaotic."
[> [> [> [> Re:
Part III is now available - link inside, includes a sample
-- ponygirl, 06:51:52 06/26/03 Thu
The idea of somebody that nobody would take account of, who
just had more power than was imaginable. Which is such a pathetically
obvious metaphor for what I wanted my life to be. Like, "I'm
the guy that nobody paid attention to. What they didn't know was
that I'm really important. I can save the world. So, you know,
that's pretty cool, too." In the interview, you have to say,
"He whined." [Interviewer's note: Joss whined.]
Sometimes you gotta just love that guy.
[> Fantastic Four --
Here's the FF scoop, for anyone who doesn't understand the allusion
in the article. Four people, a scientist, his best friend, his
girlfriend, and her little brother, go up in a rocket to beat
the Russians to the moon. The run into cosmic rays, and the ship
crashes back to earth, where they find they have superpowers.
They become the Fantastic Four, and the thing that's always set
them apart is that they're a family (Ben's the only one not related,
but he went to college with Reed and has known him for years...he's
pretty much adopted).
Over the years writers have tried to interject new characters
into the FF. It doesn't work. Luke Cage, also known as Power Man,
joined for a while (replacing the Thing, I assume). But they're
a family, and he was just there to make a nice even number. Unless
you're dating one of the members, you just don't feel like you're
part of the group, even though the team never makes a member feel
unwelcome. And that's pretty much it.
[> [> Scooby roll call
thereby -- pr10n, 15:04:24 06/25/03 Wed
Lots of fringeScoobies went through that: Anya, Tara, Riley, Spike,
Andrew, and Kennedy are examples I can think of without trying.
Not that BWXG was ever the "in" crowd, of course. They
were the core "family" and newcomers had a tough time.
Even Dawn, manufactured memories or no, fought for acceptance
as a core member. The exceptions to me were Oz and Faith, and
maybe Cordy. Were those three seem more self-assured than the
others? Were they able to keep up other relationships? I wonder
what that says about characterizations in the Jossverse.
[> [> [> Agree about
Oz & Cordy, but not Faith so much -- Scroll, 19:05:48 06/25/03
I see Faith has having an incredibly hard time fitting in with
the group, or finding her niche in the already well-oiled (kinda!)
Scooby machine. Other than her opening ep "Faith, Hope, and
Trick" in which she pretty much enthralled the gang with
her stories and attitude, Faith hasn't really been able to play
well with other kids. That's why I find her friendship with Angel
so touching. They were the outsiders in that S3 gang of outsiders.
Cordy, I think, kinda wormed her way into the group through sheer
stubbornness and the amazing ability to be completely oblivious
to Xander's barbs -- most of the time, at least! It helped that
she was a "cool kid" who was deigning to hang around
the losers. It made her Scooby contributions seem like a surprise,
a welcome surprise, whereas somebody like Andrew seems more like
Oz had the unique ability to get along with everybody. I think
even Giles would've considered him somebody easy to talk to, or
just hang around listening to old records with. Oz was the only
non-Core Four to fit in without any problems or even a big transition
period. Maybe the fact that he maintained his own social circle
outside his Scooby involvement -- the Dingoes, his gigs, and his
older friends (since he's a year older than B/W/X/C) -- helped
him with this? Or maybe it was just his totally calm, zen attitude
Btw, I just saw "The Italian Job" today. Pretty good
flick, though not as good as "Ocean's Eleven", IMO.
No Julia Roberts though! And Seth Green was in it, and he was
fantastic. He's such a sweetheart! So I'm kinda big with the Oz-love
tonight : )
confirmed -- KdS, 14:23:04 06/25/03 Wed
Just a quick word to say that the issue of SFX currently
on sale in the UK has a BtVS chunk. Most memorable bit is that
Bianca "Kendra" Lawson unambiguously confirms the rumour,
challenged some time ago on this board, that she turned down Cordelia
due to other commitments before CC got the part. Also, her story
on Kendra's infamous accent - she was told at the last minute
to do a Jamaican accent and when she tried was then ordered to
tone it down to make it easier for Americans to understand. Sort
of like what reportedly happened with GQ's accent on AtS.
Real "what might have been" - would Cordelia have still
been developed as she was? Certainly would have stopped the complaints
that the cast was too white, especially if her Cordy was softened
as CC's was.
[> Are you sure Cordelia
was white? -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:27:47 06/25/03 Wed
From her skin tone I always assumed her to be either Hispanic
or a white/black mix. Of course, she might have just kept herself
very, very tan.
[> [> Very optimistic,
Finn, but I think it's a deep tan : ) -- Scroll, 15:58:01
Or maybe I'm the one being pessimistic. (I mean about the lack
of black, Asian, etc. people in the cast.) Cuz I saw Cordy as
being very cookie-cutter in S1. She was the spoiled rich princess
of a nice upper-middle class white family. I suppose she could've
been mixed or Hispanic (I actually see the mixed thing more than
the Hispanic) but it's not very likely, IMHO.
[> Re: Old rumour confirmed
-- Rook, 16:38:02 06/25/03 Wed
The accent story doesn't Jibe at all with the DVD commentaries
for WML/WML II. Of course the person giving the commentaries is
Marti, but she was pretty detailed about the origins of the accent,
involving an dialogue coach that they brought in and such.
Haven't read the article, but "turning down" may have
been "turning down an offer to come in and read for the part."
It's not uncommon for celebs to try and attacth their names to
any succesful project they had even the most remote interest in.
[> [> Re: Old rumour
confirmed -- Sofdog, 17:57:57 06/25/03 Wed
As I recall from some old article, BL was offered the role but
couldn't take it because she was contractually bound to another
show which didn't last long. Can't remember the name.
And as for CC's complexion. She looks white to me. Nothing about
her features (not coloring) suggests a Latin or Mediterranean
origin. Understanding of course that the concept of "white"
has expanded with assimilation. When the immigration influx from
southern Europe started, Italians, Spanish and Portuguese were
uniformly considered not-white and other. Over the years Italians
have become white while Spaniards have been lumped in with Central/South
Americans. This is an inaccuracy given that the Latin and Chicano
peoples descend from a blend of Native Americans, European settlers
and African slaves.
Sorry. Brain fart.
[> [> [> Re: Old rumour
confirmed -- heywhynot, 07:04:08 06/26/03 Thu
The lack of diversity on Buffy while very annoying, it was understandable
being Sunnydale was portrayed as a small but middle class suburban
town in California within a day's drive from Los Angeles on the
coast. Many of such towns lack the diversity that is found in
the rest of California. My hometown while being a ten minutes
drive from San Francisco for example was 90+% white. Where my
little brother goes to college it is well over 80% white. BtVS
was reflecting the segregation that still occurs, which is horrible,
but pretending it doesn't exist won't help it go away.
Now when they went to college in season four the lack of diversity
was bad. I mean it was a freakin' UC campus They draw the top
3% from each public school (in addition to whomever else applies
and is qualified). UCs tend to be more diverse than say a town
like Sunnydale. You would expect to see many more characters of
color than were shown in the background let alone as major characters
on the show. Personally that is when the issue of diversity was
a major problem on Buffy in my opinion. The only Black given major
screen time in season 4 was in the army for goodness sake & went
evil. The show kinda redeemed itself with Wood, who was shown
as a human being warts and all.
In terms of racial classifications. There is really never any
inaccuracy because well it is all arbitrary anyway. Social norms
placed upon people that have a certain physical attributes. Hispanics
are lumped together nevermind the fact latinos are a blend of
different groupings, while Spanish are European in origin. None
of it really makes sense once you sit down and think about it.
What is too bad is that we have made race important because we
have oppressed certain people because of their physical attributes
creating an imbalance that still shows itself in major ways (like
the lack of diversity on Buffy).
[> [> [> Re: Old rumour
confirmed -- grrlzone, 11:15:58 06/27/03 Fri
Just a reminder that there's a difference between ethnicity and
race (socially constructed as they might be), ie: I'm Latina and
I have blonde hair and blue eyes.
Cordelia could be Latina even if she doesn't "look"
Latina (whatever that means-- Rita Moreno, J-Lo, Mariah Carey,
Salma Hayek, Cameron Diaz, and Lynda Carter are all Latinas and
they look very different from each other).
And as Raquel Welch, Jamie-Lynn Sigler (Meadow Soprano) and Christy
Turlington prove, you don't have to have a Spanish surname or
a bowl of fruit permanently plastered on your head to be Latina.
Remember the blonde-haired, blue eyed mom from "Growing Pains"?
Yup, Joanna Kerns is Mexican-American and Irish-American.
And Cordelia could also be "Hispanic" in the Iberian
sense or be multi-ethnic/racial/national or cultural and "look"
white (whatever that means). Rita Hayworth, for example, was of
Spanish and Irish heritage.
And in Hollywood, ironically enough, it's a Spaniard, Antonio
Banderas, who plays "Latino"-- often Mexican (or, if
it's a drug movie, Columbian-- how's that for stereotyping?) in
almost all of his U.S. films.
Race, ethnicity, nationality and identity-- it's a complicated
and sometimes not readily identifiable thing.
I do wish that in the Buffyverse that characters could have been
_more_ overt about how their various racial and ethic identities
colored their world. There were some good examples of how this
could be done well: Willow as secularly Jewish and later as a
gay (her preferred self-identification); Faith and Xander as working
class; Giles as British and as an immigrant. And sexuality and
gender are explored pretty well, I think, in the show-- there's
no trans stuff, which sucks, but there is quite a bit of soul
searching about what it means to be a man, a woman, a lover, a
vamp (soul-free and otherwise) overlapped with sexual orientation,
behavior and the complications of desire.
What bummed me out was that here were some real opportunities
to explore race and ethnicity and this didn't happen as often
as I would have liked. For example, Mr. Trick was really interesting
to me. What would it have been like to be a black vampire? One
take on this is explored in the book _The Gilda Stories_ but in
the Buffyverse, Trick got killed off before his time. He had alot
to say about racism, tho, in the few episodes he was in-- almost
every line of Trick's counts.
Moreover, in Angel, we come to understand that the Demonverse
has all sorts of interesting cultural identities and mores-- we
get the hint that maybe there are all sorts of rich heritages
in the sewers and in dark, dank places that we don't know anything
Remember Doyle's wannabe brain eaters?-- heck, just think about
Doyle period! What does his story say about self-identification,
identity dev't, "passing", assimilation, selling out
and giving back to the community you're born into. There's some
deep stuff happening here that is a parallel for racial identity
and relations in the US, even if (like Star Trek's aliens) it's
all couched in monsters and phantasms.
As Gossamer says, "Monsters make the most interesting people."
[> Judging from S1 and early
S2 Cordy... -- Rob, 19:17:16 06/25/03 Wed
...I'm not sure that hiring a black actress would've been such
a great idea. Whether intended or not, it might have sparked controversy
that the only character of color was a bitch.
[> [> Re: Judging from
S1 and early S2 Cordy... -- O'Cailleagh, 08:30:07 06/26/03
Probably the same reason they killed Kendra off. Controversy,
I mean. They wanted the 'other' Slayer to turn Evil and didn't
think they could do it with a black character. Thats how its seems
in retrospect anyway.
[> [> [> Maybe, but
I don't think Kendra's character... -- Scroll, 09:16:07
...could've been reworked to go "evil" the same way
Faith went evil. Kendra's core personality was pretty well-established
in "What's My Line" and it was one of a strong work
ethic, presumably with strong ethics to back her up. She
obeyed her Watcher, who would've kept her in line, and wasn't
exactly the hungry-for-the-kill Slayer that Faith was. So I think
character-wise Kendra couldn't have done anything but die a noble
death -- well, I mean considering the amount of character development
spent on her.
A new Slayer, however, could be molded differently. But I do agree
that Joss probabaly wouldn't have cast a minority actor in the
role of an evil Slayer. Might've been too controversial. Though
nobody seems to have complained about Jasmine being black and
evil. (Which I think is a good thing...) So maybe I'm making more
of Joss' decision to get another Slayer that wasn't black. In
fact, I'm pretty sure the main reason for Kendra's death was to
amp up Buffy's guilt and angst quota!
[> [> [> [> But
then again Jasmine truly was color-blind casting, which negates
the fact that she's evil... -- Rob, 12:59:47 06/26/03 Thu
Both parents having been white and all. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [>
Gina Tores thinks of herself as Hispanic -- Cleanthes,
13:48:20 06/26/03 Thu
She's Cuban-American - but she doesn't deny her skin color, of
course. I met her at a *very* sparsely attended Xena convention
some years ago in Jacksonville, Florida, so I had time for even
more awkward silence and dumb questions in the autograph line.
She acted so very well opposite Iolaus on Hercules, too. She played
a Sumerian princess, which was cool.
the Swan -- Brian, 14:47:22 06/25/03 Wed
"Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?"
I've been thinking about the Potentials. When Buffy shared her
power with them, did they become aware of her knowledge, her past
history, her memory of the whole line of slayers and watchers
back to the beginning? (Watchers? We don't need no stinking Watchers!)
Did they become aware of demons, vamps, and all the other creatures
that go bump in the night? If so, then the First Evil really did
fail, utterly and completely. Now across the world are Slayers
with all that inherited training putting the deadly moves on all
the nightmare nasties. Perhaps this is what led to the world being
free of demon influence until we reach the time of Fray. Perhaps,
now, the Scoobies really can retire as all those other Slayers
are hard at work ending evil, giving the First Evil an everlasting
set of nightmares.
I can see the folks of Angel Investigations hard at work in their
high tower offices. "Ah, evil is afoot in Iowa. Quick, to
the Angelmobile. Oh, nevertime, there's a Slayer already on it.
Rats. Okay, Lilah, let's get back to that quarterly report on
feeding the homeless. Sigh!"
chat? -- Alison, 20:44:34 06/25/03 Wed
since lulabelle's suggestion that we discuss Harry Potter on a
certain night was archived, I'm putting the idea back out on the
board. does anyone have a prefered time/day?
[> how about thursday night
at 10ish? -- lulabelle, 21:18:16 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> works for me..anyone
else have a comment? -- Alison, 22:28:34 06/25/03 Wed
[> [> [> i banked
on there being more than 2 HP fans on the board...piffle, piffle...
-- lulabelle, 22:48:20 06/25/03 Wed
[> Love to chat HP.
-- HonorH, 23:17:41 06/25/03 Wed
I'll be there if I can.
Gavin -- JBone,
21:13:56 06/25/03 Wed
I'm almost up and running on everything. Things seem to be going
along swimmingly in the mean time. Except for all those undefeated
characters. How will we ever resolve all that? They ALL can't
I want to give a shout out to cjl's handicapping. It's like looking
at the Road to the Apocalypse through a whole new set of eyes,
and liking what I see. Thank you. Oh, I've noticed you comment
makers, but I've just haven't enough time yet to put the results
up yet. After this opening week is over, I'll be able to devote
more attention to you. Because you drive this bus. Well, not all
of you at the same time, because a bus only has room for one driver...
[> Handicapping the Wiccan
Region -- cjl, 08:18:00 06/26/03 Thu
(1)Willow Rosenberg v. (16)Holland Manners
Holland gave my all-time favorite Whedonverse speech in "Reprise,"
mocking Angel (and every other earnest dogooder in the universe)
all the way down on their Elevator Ride to Hell. Besides Lilah,
he was probably the best (worst?) possible leader for W&H's
Special Projects Division. Given all that, Willow is still going
to flay him alive. My favorite red-headed witch will wipe out
all comers, and will unquestionably win the Region. Can't say
I'm going to enjoy the regional finals, though. Willow v. Tara?
Willow v. Giles? Ouch and double ouch. (ODDS to win the region:
(3)Dawn Summers/The Key v. (14)Chanterelle/Lily/Anne Steele
Believe it or not, I can see an upset here. "Can I be"
Anne has gone through more changes in a limited number of appearances
than almost any other character in the Buffyverse, from airheaded
vampire groupie to L.A. community leader. Dawn, although attractively
woman-sized and wielder of hypnotically shiny hair, has never
lost her rep as a whiner, and Joss' radical plotline-ectomy in
S7 didn't do her popularity any good, either. She'll probably
edge by Anne, but she'll never make it into the finals. (ODDS:
(9)Ethan Rayne v. (8)Janna Kalderash/Jenny Calendar
As a member of MOLOJ, I cannot offically comment on this bracket.
(Unofficially, Jenny handily beats Wizard of Chaos Ethan, but
runs into either a red-headed buzzsaw up top or the other "dead
lost love" in this region.) (ODDS: 25-1)
(11)Jasmine v. (6)The First Evil
What was exactly was the First Evil's plan again? Eliminate the
Slayer Line? Overrun the world with Turok-Han? Taunt Buffy to
death? Laaaaaaaame. Jasmine had a far more organized strategy
for world domination, and let's face it--wearing Gina Torres'
body, she looked a heck of a lot better doing it. I would love
for my favorite PTB to spread her divine beauty to later rounds,
but she's going to be crushed, either by Tara's transcendent niceness
or the awesome power of Willow's cuteness. (ODDS: 50-1)
(5)Allen Francis Doyle v. (12) Quentin Travers
Much as I like Harris Yulin as an actor, Quentin was simply too
much of a pompous ass to even mourn his untimely demise. Doyle,
on the other hand, is still mourned by many Angel fans--myself
included. He's not going to make it to the finals, but he'll be
around long enough for us to show that we miss him. (ODDS: 50-1)
(7)Jonathan Levinson v. (10)Amy Madison
Everybody's favorite nerd vs. the Wicked Witch of the West. As
much as I sympathize with Amy about her lousy childhood, there
comes a time when you've got to stop blaming your parents (or
your peers) and just suck it up. Her whining about Willow in "Killer
in Me" proved she learned nothing from her time as a rat,
and she's probably scoring at the newest magic crackhouse as I
write this. Jonathan, on the other hand, learned his lesson at
the End. He died an unsung hero. Easy winner over Amy, but will
probably fall to Tara--who will feel really bad about it. (ODDS:
(13)D'Hoffryn v. (4)Tara Maclay
I'm currently writing a fanfic about D'Hoffryn, and I love the
character. He's a combination of all-powerful demonic overlord,
sleazy pimp, and perverse surrogate father figure to Anya and
the rest of his "girls." You can write him a dozen different
ways, and none of them would be OOC. Of course, he doesn't stand
a chance against St. Tara, who could face off against her beloved
Willow in the regional finals. (Did I say ouch?) (ODDS: 3-1)
(15)Gavin Park v. (2)Rupert Giles/Ripper
Admire DDK as an actor, but the role of Gavin never gave him anything
to chew on. Better off dead and available for other projects (he's
got a cameo in the new Hulk movie). As for Giles, not even the
pod-ness of S7 can diminish his glorious Rippertude. He's the
only one in this region who could conceivably pull off the unthinkable
and upset Willow. (ODDS: 3-1)
[> [> Thanks for these
run downs. It's like watching sports center. -- Rochefort,
13:04:21 06/26/03 Thu
[> Got me thinking about
computer games... -- KdS, 08:44:23 06/26/03 Thu
If the BtVS/AtS computer game had been a Street Fighter
type one-on-one fighter, what would be the special moves?
Xander - special PsycheOut! attack where his steadfastness and
bravery reflects his oppponent's attack back on them.
Willow - need I write?
Cordelia - glows and levitates to the top of the screen, replenishing
her energy to maximum.
Dru - hypnotic attack
Lorne and Dawn - both do Ultrasonic Scream
Anya - [CENSORED]
Caleb - RapidMisogyny! inflicts double damage with all attacks
on female opponents
Jonathan - MarySueSpell! attack copies a randomly chosen special
move from any of the other characters.
Wes - MultiTool! attack with his Swiss Army Knife weapons from
Spin the Bottle
[> Can there be any doubt?
The G-Man is, along with the Mayor, the favorite dark horse of
this tourney -- Random, 11:29:42 06/26/03 Thu
[> [> Um, Ran? They're
BOTH "G-Men" LOL -- dub ;o), 13:05:15 06/26/03
[> [> [> Heh...nah,
Giles is the G-man, Gavin is the g-man...important distinction
-- Random, 13:14:45 06/26/03 Thu
[> Gavin? Mr. "I'll
get AI. I'll smother them in paoerwork?" -- LittleBite,
11:30:15 06/26/03 Thu
I want to know how many times we're allowed to vote against Gavin.
[> [> Sigh... --
LittleBit, 16:01:03 06/26/03 Thu
Pay no attention to 'Bite. I keep explaining that the idea is
to vote for a choice not against one.
in the Chair That Really Fits You - Thoughts on *End of Days*
& *Chosen* - Part V -- OnM, 21:42:38 06/25/03 Wed
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part IV ) ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ (Continued in Part VI ) ~ ~ ~
There is no dark side to the moon. Matter of fact, it's all dark.
............ Pink Floyd
Many Buffyverse fans have commented that there often appear to
be parallels in the events of the current
Angel series to that of BtVS. When you think about it, there has
been one very primal positive energy
force has always been present through every year of both programs--
Part of the key to understanding the First Evil is to realize
that it only exists as the negation of
something real. Joss' choice to make the FE incorporeal isn't
just a handy plot device-- it's making the
point that if you stop feeding energy to the FE, it weakens and
drifts away, like the sun rising in the
morning drives back the darkness-- darkness which in physical
reality is simply the absence of the
sun. Another way of stating this precept: You can feed air
into a vacuum, but the vacuum doesn't give
anything back-- it just takes in. It's all about power, and while
we can talk about 'sides', there is often only
one real side, and the apparent other is only the vacuum
of its absence.
This year on A:tS, we had The Beast, who literally took away the
sun from Los Angeles, and presumably
from the rest of the world in due time, had he not been stopped.
But wait just a moment-- was the sun
really gone, removed from the cosmos? Even though the beast had
destroyed the Ra-Tet, and then
subsumed their collective powers, he did not actually remove
the sun-- he only blocked its light and
heat from reaching the denizens of Los Angeles. A neat trick to
be sure, and one requiring great power--
but despite this display of immense power the sun was still shining
behind the curtain of the magicks.
Meanwhile in BtVS, the FE is raising an army of ubervamps, creatures
who literally, physically cannot
survive in the light of day, and is pinning its hope for gaining
corporeality on having their numbers grow
and grow, eventually outnumbering humans. Why vampires? Why not
some other demon? Why not
demons in general?
On a purely rational basis, this makes no particular sense, but
symbolically the ubers represent a primal
form of living negation. Vampires, after all, are "the
undead"-- creatures defined not as being
independently alive, but only existing as reanimated dead bodies
powered with a demon engine. 'Modern'
vampires often have many of the advanced characteristics and complexities
of the humans they infect.
Some are clever, resourceful, talented, wealthy, powerful, devious.
In season four, Adam chose a (modern)
vampire to be his 'First', because he identified with the hybrid
nature of the creature-- one "who walks in
both worlds, but belongs to neither". This kind of creature
really does not serve the First Evil all that well.
Returning to the practical from the symbolic, The First doesn't
want minions that are clever unless such
cleverness suits its ends. The Turok-han aren't ever likely to
question or rebel against the First, as Spike
did, or Caleb might have if he ever thought the FE was going to
betray him. Caleb sold his soul to the FE
because it granted him immense power in return, but did he really
expect it to honor the bargain if it
became inconvenient? Apparently so, but as I mentioned just a
while ago, the FE seemed as impressed with
Buffy's violence directed at Caleb as it was with Caleb. As it
comments to Buffy when it appears before
her in the Casa Summers basement, "Who needs a right arm
when you have an army?"
So for the FE, culturing 'Primal Negation' of and by itself is
both sufficient and highly desirable-- make the
vacuum intense enough, and everything positive gets sucked in.
The multitudes of Hells that exist in the
Buffyverse may themselves represent a vacuum in the metaphysical
sense-- how many times during seasons
past have we heard the phrase 'sucked into hell'? If the FE succeeds
in its plan to eventually outnumber
humans with its army of undead, then it will have accomplished
the equivalent of having the sun blotted out
completely. If this occurs, and the Slayer line has also been
destroyed or crippled, then humanity is unlikely
to ever re-tip the balance in its favor, much like at some point
the intense gravity of a black hole will not
even allow light to escape its event horizon.
Thus, both metaphorically and literally, the sun is a type of
god to us by virtue of making our human
existence possible, and Buffy can be seen as a channel for the
sun's power. So what's with the moon, then?
If we consider the two scenes in Chosen where Buffy is
staring at the moon and/or bathed in its
light-- which in reality is the reflected light of the sun,
it could be reasoned by extension that Buffy
is a channel for light, even in the midst of darkness.
The moon was often seen as a celestial
counterpart for the sun in many ancient human mythologies, but
millenia ago it wasn't understood that the
moon is not a self-luminous body. The Buffyverse may have the
presence of ancient beings in it, but it is
fundamentally a modern story, and in modern times we comprehend
that the moon is a mirror that keeps
part of the sun alive even if is on the other side of the world
from us. As before, consider the last seven
years, and how many times we have seen Buffy under moonlight,
and you'll realize that this sun/ mirror/
Buffy metaphor is every bit as pervasive as the vacuum/negation
one. Think in particular to
Conversations with Dead People and the opening scene with
the brightly moonlit graveyard that
was so strangely beautiful despite the somber reality of the setting--
and who was that tiny figure
wandering about, keeping hell at bay?
Now Spike's part in the all this becomes clearer. Spike has slowly
evolved from a creature of the night into
one who has embraced the sun, even if only in reflection, with
Buffy as the mirror. The crystal amulet he
holds in his hand is the final link that will take him fully into
the bright light of day, a physical manifestation
of the spiritual link that Buffy has provided. As the dawn nears,
he looks up and over to Buffy, who is
standing at the foot of the basement stairs looking intensely
back at him. The scene is framed so that Spike
is at far stage left, and Buffy is at far stage right, just barely
inside the edges of the screen. In a previous
year, this visual phrasing would likely have contemplated a face-off
between enemies, but this time it surely
indicates that despite the apparent space between them, they are
now connected and of a common purpose.
It's a compellingly dramatic scene despite its brevity and starkness,
and it reminds me of Hush in
that great meaning is conveyed without a word being spoken.
It is now full on morning, and we see the exterior of Sunnydale
High. Robin Wood appears, leading the
'army' of protos up to the school entrance and then on inside.
(I take particular note of the fact that it's
Dawn and Faith as the very first persons walking fast right behind
Robin, then the protos and the other
Scoobies. We don't see Buffy just yet.) As they stride down the
hallway and come to a stop, Buffy appears
and along with Wood begins directing who will go where. Faith
and Spike lead the protos to the basement
and the Seal of Danthalzar. Kennedy goes off to Wood's office
and starts to set things up for Willow.
Wood then makes suggestions as to where the 'civilians' will be
stationed, and Giles follows up:
Giles: Teams of two then, and I suggest you and I take
Wood: I concur.
Buffy: Xander, I want you with Dawn.
Xander: I concur.
Dawn: We'll take the atrium.
Anya: So that leaves me and the dungeon master in the north
Andrew: We will defend it with our very lives.
Anya: Yes, we'll defend it with his very life.
Andrew pauses to pull out a wrinkled sheet of paper, and haltingly
tries to give an awards-show type
speech saying how honored he is to die for the cause, but after
a few patient moments (for Anya anyway),
Anya herds him off to their spot. As Wood heads off to his station,
Dawn steps up to Buffy, all cool
purpose and intensity. The great scenes that this ep is crammed
with just keep on coming, as Dawn proves
that Buffy was dead on in Grave when she predicted that
Dawn "will grow up to be powerful":
Dawn: I'm gonna check out our field of engagement.
( She starts down the hall. Buffy goes after her. )
( Dawn turns back, not waiting for Buffy to speak. )
Dawn: Anything you say is gonna sound like goodbye.
In the opening scene of the 7th season, we saw Buffy teaching
Dawn how to defend herself against
vampires and other attackers, along with the critical need to
understand "who has the power". In this last
act of this final season, we see that Dawn has fully come in to
her own power. As the fate of the world is
about to hang in the balance, there is no hesitancy, only a fierce
determination and maturity that belies
Dawn's mere 16 years of life. Buffy is awed, but keeps a lid on
it while Dawn pivots about and
purposefully makes her way down the hall, her cache of weapons
resting as naturally on her frame as if she
was born to carry them. As Buffy turns back to Giles, Willow and
Xander, we get to see Sarah in her prime
acting element as a short but sharp look of abject pride beams
from her face-- you can almost hear Buffy
think Damn, is she the coolest sister in the world, or what??
It is now only the 'core four' remaining, and as promised we really
are back to the beginning, as the
scene setup mirrors the end minutes of The Harvest, the
second part of the series opener. The old
comrades stare at one another silently for several long seconds,
then Buffy breaks the pregnant pause with:
Buffy: So. What do you guys wanna do tomorrow?
Xander: Mini-golf is always the first thing that comes
Giles: Well, I think we can do better than that.
Buffy: I'm pretty much thinking about shopping. As usual.
Willow:There's an Agnes B. in the new mall!
Xander: I could use a few items.
Giles: Well, no, aren't we gonna discuss this? We're saving
the world to go to the mall?
Buffy: I'm having a wicked shoe craving.
Xander: Aren't you on the patch?
Willow:Those never work.
Giles: And I'm just here, invisible to the eye, not having
( And the kids are headed off, leaving Giles to watch them. )
Xander: See, it's the eye-patch thing.
Buffy: Right, do you go with the full black secret agent
Willow:Or the puffy shirt pirate-slash-poet feel. Sensitive
Xander: Now you're gettin' a little renaissance fair on
Buffy: It's a fine line.
( Giles turns away from them. )
Giles: The earth is definitely doomed.
We are down in the school basement at the Seal of Danzalthar,
and all of the potentials are tightly circled
around it, along with Faith and Spike. Buffy enters the room and
moves over next to Faith in the circle.
Faith offers Buffy a knife, presumably the one that Andrew used
to open the seal before. Buffy cuts herself
on the hand, and holds the wound out over the Seal after passing
the knife along to Faith, who does the
same and then passes it to Amanda. We cut to a shot of the Seal
opening in its usual Hellraiser-inspired
fashion as all of the members of the circle hold their hands out
over the seal, anointing it with their blood.
Buffy and company then enter the opening and descend into the
Two observations here, one a question that I have no answer for,
and the other more of a minor personal
button topic for your humble movie man. First, is the Seal an
actual portal to another dimension, or is this
part of the Hellmouth just a great big ol' cavern under the high
school? I was under the impression that it
was a dimensional portal, but if that was the case, why should
the destruction of the Turok-han cavern
cause the school and later Sunnydale to collapse into it when
it was destroyed? Not that it matters greatly,
because hey-- great special effects coming soon to this neighborhood,
but it does wonder me a mite.
Second, the blood ritual thang where the ritualee slices their
palm and then lets the blood drip out etc. is a
standard movie (and by extension TV) cliche, I know this. But
like the chloroform cliche or the surviving
the close-by explosion cliche, it's fundamentally stupid. Why
on earth would you cut the palm of your
hand? Do you have any idea just how densely packed the hand
is with bones, tendons, nerves, blood
vessels, etc. compared to some of the more fleshy parts of the
body? And the complexity is there because
the hand has to move?? And move lot, and tightly
grip things, like weapons??? Now
I grant you that Buffy and Faith would probably be healed up in
a few minutes or so if they're in the proper
state of mind, but what about the protos? They're already likely
shit-scared (as witness Xander's bathroom
break comment a short while back) and now you want them to be
wrasslin' with Ubers or wielding swords
and suchlike with a sliced up hand? Sheesh.
Back to the cavern/other dimension or whatever it is, we see the
group approach a cliff edge below which
are thousands of Turok-han partying away, or else waiting for
the next Lord of the Rings flick to call for
extras. Spike expresses concern that the crystal amulet isn't
doing whatever it's supposed to do yet, and
Faith points out that if Willow doesn't pull off the mojo as planned,
he'll have other things to worry about
than bad Liz Taylor vibes. Buffy is valiantly trying to not look
or sound nervous after seeing that the Ubie
reality is every bit as scary as the vision the Shadowmen provided
her with, and failing somewhat.
Suddenly, the Turok-han notice the intruders, and turn en masse
and begin scrambling up the cliff to
attack. Buffy quietly mutters, "Willow, now..."
Back upstairs, above the seal in Wood's office, Willow is sitting
cross-legged on the floor, starting the
spell as Kennedy watches. Willow leans forward, places both hands
on the Scythe, and begins chanting
quietly. As the spell enables, a brilliant white light bathes
the Scythe and then envelopes Willow. Kennedy
is stunned with a force like nothing she has ever experienced,
and we cut back to the latter part of Buffy's
earlier speech to the potentials that we didn't get to hear before,
and to quote Mayor Wilkins, it's a
... What if you could have that power? Now. All of
you. In every generation one Slayer is
born because a bunch of guys that died thousands of years ago
made up that rule. They were powerful
men. (points to Willow) This woman is more powerful than all of
them combined. So I say we change the
rules. I say my power should be our power. Tomorrow Willow will
use the essence of this Scythe, that
contains the energy and history of so many Slayers, to change
our destiny. From now on, every girl in the
world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who
could have the power, will have the power.
Who can stand up, will stand up. Every one of you, and girls we've
never known, and generations to
come... they will have strength they never dreamed of, and more
than that, they will have each other.
Slayers. Every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be
The energy tapped from the mystical properties of the Scythe radiates
out everywhere, and we cut to a
series of shots showing girls from all over the world as the gift
of power envelops them. (I've adapted most
of the descriptions here from the shooting script, just condensing
In Wood's office, Kennedy's head rears into frame, her eyes sparkling
with power. Down below in the
cavern, the potentials are potentials no more as each and every
one is simultaneously Called, the individual
reactions varying but the end results the same-- whoa!
In India, a girl has fallen to the floor, wide-eyed as the power
and knowledge course through her. We cut
to an inner city school where unnoticed by the passing throng
of students in the school hallway, an
African-American girl leans against her locker, breathing hard,
looking almost puzzled. Then it's the inside
of a nondescript trailer in the daytime, as we see the back of
a beefy fellow who is about to strike someone
-- and her hand blocks his blow. She rises into frame, with a
cold fury in her eyes that suggests that won't
be happening again.
In a Japanese home, it is nighttime, and the family is having
dinner as the daughter backs away from the
table, trying to keep her balance. Finally, a twelve year old
girl stands uncertainly at the plate of a baseball
diamond as the power hits her: she takes it in, looking down in
confusion.... then looking back up, slowly,
her stance straightening and a wicked grin on her face.
And I dearly love that last shot-- it's just so incredibly cool,
and you don't have to be a baseball fan to
appreciate it. And the coolness continues unabated as Kennedy
comes out of her trip and sees Willow
literally glowing (sunlight metaphor again) as the energy of the
spell channels through her. No black hair
and dark matter eyeballs this time-- this is power from a different
place. The spell ends, and Willow looks
exhausted but ecstatic. Kennedy looks at Willow with much the
same kind of astonished awe that Buffy
directed at Dawn upstairs in the hallway, and declares that Willow
is a goddess. Willow hands Kennedy the
Scythe, and tells her "...and you're a Slayer. Get this to
Buffy." Kennedy rises up and races out the door,
headed for the basement. Willow flops over on her side on the
floor, the after-glow effect of the spell still
permeating her being, big goofy grin on her face, and we get another
unforgettable dialog moment:
Willow: That was nifty!
Meanwhile significant demon ass-kickage is taking place in the
upper cavern below the Seal. The newly
reborn protos are waling away at the Turok-han pouring over the
cliff-edge, while Buffy and Faith are
bringing their years of experience to bear in terms of some serious
carnage. Spike is also helping out, but
so far the amulet still hasn't booted up. Kennedy enters the cavern,
and tosses the Scythe to Buffy, who
effortlessly catches it and dusts several vamps in a single stroke.
Now, mystical Scythe-spell or no, newbie Slayers en masse or no,
Buffy and Faith's veteran experience or
no, many fans have pointed out that the odds are still ridiculous.
How many thousand Ubies are there? I
dunno, but it's a lotta thousands, I can tell you that
fer sure. There are like 20 or 30 total Slayers,
and if each one could manage to kill an average of 100 Ubies,
then that still only comes to 2000 or 3000
vamps. I would hazard a guess that there's more where they came
from. What this means is that Spike's
shiny little who-ket needs to conjure up some additional mojo
on the same level as Willow's spell, and post
And, what the hell, it does. I mean, what did you expect? This
is show biz, you know!
But first, the 'civilians' are busy engaging in battle with the
smaller group of Turok-han that managed to
make it up and out of the Seal. Giles and Wood, Dawn and Xander
and even Anya and Andrew manage to
slow the vamps down a bit, although it's obvious that long term
thery're gonna be toast. OK, Andrew will
probably be toast first, considering that according to Joss, he's
'Jerry Lewis with a sword'. But as always,
there will be the inevitable ME twist thrown in to confound us
Andrew: I think they're coming...
Anya: Oh God. I'm terrified. I didn't think... I just figured
you would be terrified and I would be
sarcastic about it.
Andrew: (terrified, no question, but trying to be supportive)
Picture happy things. A lake. Candy
( Anya's eyes narrow. )
Anya: Bunnies. Floppy, hoppy, bunnies.
(Her sword comes up, all of her fear gone. )
In the Dawn and Xander scene, Dawn gives me pause to wonder whether
or not she was hit with the
Scythe energy also. The question of whether or not Dawn was also
a potential Slayer is not answered in
this episode, but as you may recall, the issue was left ambiguous
earlier in the season. In the episode
Potential, Willow's locator spell seems to indicate that
Dawn could be called, but then we are lead
to believe that the glowy light thing only passed through
Dawn on its way to Amanda, who was
outside the door at the time. Well, yeah, maybe, but she sure
as anything can handle herself in battle-- first
the clever feint with the tarp that dusts the three Ubies in a
blast of noonday sun, then displaying a wicked
way with a sword when the bad guys attack Xander. Sho-nuff looks
mighty Slayerish to me.
Below the Seal, the battle is starting to take its toll on everyone,
as Turok-han keep getting dusted but
more just quickly take the place of the vanquished. Buffy, whether
because of exhaustion or distraction,
does not realize that an armed vamp is right behind her, and the
creature siezes the moment, stabbing Buffy
through the abdomen with its sword. Buffy, in shock and pain,
tries to remain standing but falls face first to
the ground in a manner reminiscent of when she fell into the pool
of water in the Master's lair in
Prophecy Girl. Naturally, we cut to a commercial-- so handy,
whatever would we do without them?
When we come back and soon return to the fight in the cavern,
we see Faith suddenly notice that Buffy is
down, and she immediately makes her way over to the fallen leader,
the look on her face filled with both
anger and fear. She quickly tries to force the negative emotions
off her countenance as she crouches down
before the woman who might very well be breathing her last. What
will happen now if Buffy dies? Not that
I thought for a moment that this would actually happen, but if
it did, the answer is soon made plain:
Buffy: (weakly, but doing what must be done) Hold the line...
And she holds out the Scythe to Faith. Past is now prolog, and
as she did in Empty Places, Buffy
passes the leadership torch again, trusting Faith to take over
in her place. A solemn moment passes as we
watch the emotions play out on Faith's face, and then Faith takes
the Scythe. She stabs the vamp behind
her without even looking at him, and then (as Joss so colorfully
phrases it in the script) 'goes apeshit on the
The angle of view changes toward Spike, as pain racks his body--
the amulet is starting to do whatever it's
going to do, but it almost seems like it's a misfire or a crashing
program, as if having Buffy put down is
damping out the magicks. He struggles, tosses away a vamp, confusion
on his face. Another uber gets
Faith around the neck from behind her, and a mass of vamps quickly
pile on top of her. Faith tosses the
Scythe to Rona, who grabs it and starts hacking away while Faith
struggles to escape.
Buffy is still down, and not looking any better. As she watches,
a bleeding Amanda drops right in front of
her, eyes wide open, and her body very dead. Buffy winces, fighting
off the growing pit of desperation but
she's starting to lose that battle too. Two more Slayers fall,
and we cut to Kennedy who is backed against
a wall, her weapon knocked from her hand, trying to steady herself.
The troops are doing their damnedest,
but it just isn't enough-- the evil hoard seems truly endless.
We cut back to Buffy, who looks up to see the
First Evil, who once again looks just like Buffy, bleeding abdominal
wound and all. The FE can't resist the
opportunity to taunt:
Buffy/First: Ooh! Ow! Mommy! This mortal wound is all...
( The FE leans in, smiles, almost betraying something approaching
Buffy/First: You pulled a neat trick. Hey, you came pretty
close to smacking me down. What
more do you want?
Once again, bad move on the part of the First. Buffy now looks
more enraged than hurt, and as the First
stares back, smile quickly shifting to a look of sheer disbelief,
Buffy begins slowly pushing herself back up
towards a standing position, absolute indomitable fury in her
Buffy: I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried, as well the hell it should.
The camera shifts down to slo-mo as Buffy
rises. She is sweaty and bleeding, her hair is dusty and in her
face, and I instantly flash back to the image of
'Cave Slayer Buffy' in the 4th season's Beer Bad.
The First should have taken the advice that Xander gave back then--
"Don't make Cave-Slayer
angry". If it had just kept quiet, didn't put in that
final personal appearance, didn't decide to go with
the big gloat... but it's too late now. When Buffy gets upset,
mayhem generally follows. When Buffy is
angry, hell should run for cover. When Buffy is at a point where
even Gandhi would be pissed off,
The FE is nowhere in sight as Buffy literally does her very best
Neo and rises from the (near) dead one
more time. Even more incredibly, she brings everyone else back
with her. Rona sees Buffy back on her feet
and immediately throws her the Scythe. Buffy catches it and stands
up a little straighter. She screams, and
swings the Scythe like it's a bat, knocking a whole cluster of
Turok-han back and over the edge of the cliff
in one single blow. Faith suddenly flips off the entire pile of
ubers that were holding her to he ground, and
the rest of the Slayers shift into something beyond overdrive
as suddenly limitless positive energy seems to
pour back into the space from somewhere, filling the women with
new and even more powerful strength.
No cause to paraphrase this next part-- Joss captures the moment
better in the shooting script than I could
possibly ever do:
Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."
[> The usual ***SPOILERS***
for eps, blah-dee-blah-blah, and Ooo! .. Ooo!! Stay tuned for...
-- OnM, 21:54:10 06/25/03 Wed
.. (or run like hell from) the next installment, ye aulde part
the VIth, up on this Saturday sometime, followed by (really! I
mean it this time-- truly, madly, deeply for real!) the big ol'
Final Wrap Up Pt VII on Sunday.
You gotta suffer if you wanna sing the blues.
............ Dave Bromberg
[> [> Heeeeyyyy! I missed
Part III! How'd that happen?! -- Marie, 04:47:31 06/26/03
[> [> [> Here's OnM's
Part III (Hope no one minds' - if so? Delete) -- s'kat (who
saved it), 08:02:06 06/26/03 Thu
Hope you don't mine my reposting this OnM. I think this may include
I & II as well not sure, since the whole thing seems to begin
here...I sort of saved to hard drive so I could read all together.
Date Posted: 19:28:50 06/22/03 Sun
Subject: Dreamer Easy in the Chair That Really Fits You - Thoughts
on *End of Days* & *Chosen* - Part III
Baptism of fire, I never knew what that meant
But now the flames are rising higher, I guess I haven't seen anything
Because it's coming down around me and I am rising up
Like a phoenix from the ashes, wings across the blue
The only way out is through
Forest of fury, kindling of fear
Oh see how dark the woods have grown after all these years
And now they're coming down around me and I am rising up
Like a lily from the shadows, glistening and perfumed
The only way out is through
All the detours taken never lead you home
What a maze you find yourself in and still alone
Oh you thought it should be easy so the truth eluded you
The only way out is through
Baptism of fire all happening within
Illusions burn like tall grass in a wild and reckless wind
And now they're coming down around me and I am rising up
Like a great bell resurrected, ringing loud and true
The only way out is through
............ Julie Snow
And she turns to me with her hand extended / Her palm is split
with a flower with a flame
............ Suzanne Vega, from Solitude Standing
I want the fire back.
............ Buffy, from Once More With Feeling
It's about 20 minutes to 8 PM, Eastern Standard on Tuesday May
the 20th, 2003. I left my workplace at
about the usual closing time, stopped to pick up a few groceries
at the supermarket on the way home, and
walked in the old home door about 7:30-ish. Some frozen foodstuffs
destined for my dinner go for a ride in
the microwave while I log on to the board to see if anyone else
is getting revved up for the possible BtVS
equivalent of Moulin Rouge's 'Spectacular Spectacular!'.
Except I'm not really revved up-- there is serious anticipation,
yea and verily and all, but it's a
controlled anticipation, desire tempered by reason. And with very
good reason, I might add,
because how can whatever artistic thought taking physical form
between 8 and 9 this evening possibly live
up to my expectations? It isn't even a whole hour, just a mere
42 minutes or so to wrap up oodles of plot
points (or not) and sum up the seasonal theme (or not) and furthermore
sum up the entire series, all seven
years of it (or... not) and leave me all shaken and breathless
and gloriously WOW!!-like.
Or Not. One of the surest ways to diminish your enjoyment of any
experience is to get so high on
the theory before the principle actually connects with reality
that you end up wishing reality wasn't. So I
duly note that the board is pretty quiet, considering, and then
I wonder if some other fans aren't feeling the
same way. I log off, switch from defrost to cook, and start cuing
the VCR's into pre-launch mode.
The Eightnight Hour arrives, and then passes, and all too soon
it is 9, and I am left thinking hummm...
that was... an ending, all right. Beyond that, I wasn't quite
sure what to think, except that the
24 season finale was also just starting up right now, and I had
to quickly change mental gears to a
different ratio(nale) and get psyched to view what will happen
on my second favorite TV show of the last 2
The next hour passes, and 24 also winds out and over, with This
Year's Twist once again suitably
torquey and perverse. 10 PM, and time to rewind and re-Buffyize,
since the evening ain't over until the thin
lady smiles. ( I clearly remembered how very much I liked the
final scene and many other nifty bits, but the
rest was kind of a blur in between the usual miserable %&!*$#
commercials. How could it have been over
so very soon? ) As I expected, the second time through the show
proved much more rewarding and besides
which FAST FORWARD BUTTON past the %&!*$# commercials, bonus!!
With all the anticipatory tension gone from the vibes surrounding
this last-ever-original-airing-thang, I got
to relax and release my desires and preconceptions and simply
partake of the offering as presented. As I did
so, previously Jossed-over details appeared. The flow of show-time,
while still very rapid, became far more
natural and right-feeling. A few odd points that had bothered
me initially didn't this time, or bothered me
much less. The stuff that I really liked on first viewing I adored
by the second, and I even forgot to be
pissed that my two major hoped-for wrap-up scenes didn't even
remotely appear. The Mona Lisa Buffy
smile emerges once again at the end and we cut to black, and I
think Oh, this is cool. He's done the
impossible again-- he ended the show without ending the shew,
the really big shew, that is. As
promised, the Buffyverse lives on, although this one big honkin'
portion of the neverending story has duly
concluded. The original 6.5 to 7 rating I had quickly pegged the
show with on first viddy rose a solid
point-and-a-half-ish to 8.5.
10:45 PM. Be kind, rewind, and watch it again:
Xander: It's a Summers' thing. All very violent.
Giles: I think it's bloody brilliant.
Willow: That was nifty.
Buffy: I love you.
Spike: No you don't. But thanks for saying it.
The handclasp, the look in the eyes, the fire.
Robin and Faith.
The Sunnydale sign falls into the gaping crater.
That smile. So simple, so perfect. Bloody brilliant indeed.
11:30 PM and I go to sleep thinking about it. I wake up a few
hours later, and noting that the show should
have aired on the West Coast by now, I log on to ATPochat and
there are like 30-some people there,
which I am pretty sure is a record of some kind. All in all, a
pretty good night. The Slayer lives-- long live
It begins right where it ended, from episode last-- Angel appears
miraculously with intent to smite down
the evil Caleb, but on her request steps back to watch Buffy have
the last word-- or smitening, as it were.
After gut-slashing Caleb in much the same manner that the Bringers
employed on the protos, Buffy and
Angel look longingly at one another and move on to some kissage.
Buffy steps back to bask a little, then:
Buffy: Okay. I'm basked. What are you doing here?
Angel: Not saving the damsel in distress, that's for sure.
Buffy: You know me. Not big with the damseling.
They chat a bit more, and Angel is about to introduce the official
Wolfram & Hart First Evil File Folder
and matching Elizabeth Taylor Mystical Scrubbing Bubbles Crystal
Amulet, when sure enough, jenoff was
right on the money, for lo, Caleb the I'm-not-quite-dead-yet!
misogynist rises up and smite-ifies Angel a
good one upside the head. Angel goes flying, apparently knocked
out, and Caleb quickly reminds Buffy
that dead or not, 'bitch' is still his favorite all-time word.
We cut to the (~sob! whine!~) last ever BtVS
opening credits sequence and (~Grr! Arrgh!!~) stupid opening endless
OK, it only seems endless, because eventually we do return to
the actual adventure and Buffy reasonably
requesting just how many times does she have to kill Caleb? Ballpark?
After some additional serious back-and-forth fighting, Caleb displays
some of his very best book-learnin'
when he accurately comments that Buffy doesn't possess any testicles,
and Buffy follows up with some
very best Scythe-matterage when she deprives Caleb of his. Now,
this might seem just a little too radical
feminist for some metaphor-wise, but rest assured there is a higher
purpose involved. Since Caleb doesn't
seem to have much in the way of verbal response to Buffy's (re:
balls) "Who does these days?", she
follows through by yanking upward on the Scythe and apparently
slicing the C-man in two.
Angel regains consciousness, ready to fight, but quickly discovers
that Buffy has brandished her ultimate
weapon in the fight against Evil-- bad puns:
Angel: Okay, now I'm pissed. Where is he?
( Buffy indicates the floor to her left. Angel looks. Then she
indicates the floor to her right. Angel looks,
then back at her, impressed. Buffy smiles girlishly. )
Buffy: He had to split.
One of the first of many favorite moments in this final fling
is what happens next-- Buffy laughs, a goofy,
snorting, belch of a laugh that seems totally in character only
because Joss had the audacity to script it and
Sarah the consummate acting ability to make it seem perfectly
natural. And of course, why stop with just a
bad pun when you can make it work on yet another level, namely
that Caleb was known to refer to women
derisively as 'splits'. As I said, not the act itself, but what
it was leading up to-- all prime Jossian stuff.
Angel goes on to give Buffy the W&H file, and the crystal pendant,
stating that he doesn't know the actual
nature of what the pendant is supposed to do, only that it needs
to be worn by someone with a soul, but
more than human-- a champion. Naturally, he assumes that this
means him, but Buffy points out it could
just as easily be her. Angel doesn't care for that idea, because
he is afraid that using the amulet might have
bad consequences for the wearer, and he won't have Buffy risk
it. (In all fairness, since W&H was the
provider of this 'weapon', Angel would have pretty good reason
to be suspicious of there being a 'gift
Buffy then realizes that Angel wants to be directly involved with
her and the rest of the Scoobies in the
coming battle, and she tells him calmly but firmly that she doesn't
want him to help her that way. Angel is
surprised at this rejection, and wants to know the reason why.
Buffy tells him that if she fails in her quest to
stop the FE and its army of Turok-hans, she will need a 'second
front' to take over for her, and that Angel
would have to be in charge of that. It's a logical and reasonable
plan, but Angel suspects that there is some
other reason that Buffy is reluctant to inform him of, and he
guesses correctly-- it has to do with Spike.
Sometime during this exchange, Spike has snuck back out of the
pyramid after hearing that Angel wants to
fight at Buffy's side, reasonably assuming that now that Buffy's
old boyfriend is back, he's going to be out
of the picture, or at best playing battleground second banana
to Angel. (There is a bit of a timing-continuity
problem with this scene that I'll mention in just a little while
when we get to the scene where Buffy returns
to Casa Summers). Buffy leaves the pyramid, and Angel follows
insisting on some clarification, wanting to
know if Spike is involved with Buffy in a more personal way:
Angel: Is he your boyfriend?
Buffy: Is that your business?
Angel: Are you in love with him?
( Beat. Buffy can't answer. )
Angel: Maybe I'm outta line, but this is kind of a curveball for
me. We are talking about Spike
Buffy: It's different. He's different. He has a soul now.
Angel: Oh. Well.
Angel: No, no, that's great. (mumbling) Everyone's got a soul
Buffy: What are you, pissed?
Angel: No, it's great. One for our side.
Buffy: He'll make a difference.
Angel: (almost to himself) You know, I started it. The whole...
having a soul. Before it was all the
'cool new thing'...
Buffy: Oh my god, are you twelve?
Angel: I'm gettin' the brush-off for Captain Peroxide, it doesn't
bring out the champion in me.
Buffy: It's not the brush-off. Having both of you here would be...
Angel: For who?
Buffy: Everybody! Why are you so-- Are you gonna come by and get
all Dawson on me every
time I have a boyfriend?
Angel: Aha! Boyfriend!
Buffy: He's not! But... (thinks about it) He is in my heart.
Angel: That'll end well.
Buffy: And what was the highlight of our relationship? The time
you broke up with me or the time
I killed you?
This exchange leads to another of those bizarre moments when you
hear something, and can't quite believe
that you just heard what you heard. Deja who? Did she just compare
herself to cookie dough? Ye gods...
Buffy: You know, I've always figured there was something wrong
with me, 'cause I never made it
work. But maybe I'm not supposed to.
Angel: Because you're the Slayer?
Buffy: Because... okay, I'm cookie dough, okay?
Angel: Yet another curveball...
Buffy: I'm not done baking yet. I'm not finished becoming... whoever
the hell it is I'm gonna turn
out to be. I've been looking for someone to make me feel whole,
and maybe I just need to be
whole. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next...
maybe one day I turn around and realize
I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then if I want someone to eat m--
or, to enjoy warm delicious cookie-me, then
that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.
Angel: Any thoughts on who might enjoy... do I have to go with
the cookie analogy?
Way back when at the end of season five, I had a very similar
reaction to the epitaph "She saved the world.
A lot." when I first saw it. Huh? Here we were, literally
seconds after an emotionally devastating moment
and The Joss is being flippant. "A lot." ? Even armed
with the well-known spoilery foreknowledge
that the Buffster would rise again in the fall, it just seemed
too out there on first reading, like the
envelope was pushed too far. Some time and many re-viewings later,
I can't possibly think of the
now-famous remembrance being anything else-- it was a perfect
fit to both the show and the character, and
Joss knew it, and I just had to move my mind around to better
grab the gestalt of it. So it is becoming with
the cookie-dough speech-- it really is yet another classic Buffy
riff, and again kudos to Sarah for making
the words work-- with the efforts of a lesser actor, it would
have remained ridiculous instead of endearing
no matter how many times you heard it.
So Angel gets with the current program, and the two old soulmates
part once again, with the sitch
cunningly leveraged to neither confirm nor deny future B/A shippage.
(This kind of storyline ambiguity is a
recurrent theme throughout the entire episode, and I can't help
but admire how so many future possibilities
were left extant. For a series 'finale', there was relatively
little finality to the universe itself. This may
bother some fans, but I greatly appreciated it. I'll be discussing
this aspect of the writing in a bit more
detail near the end of the essay).
Buffy returns home, and no sooner gets in the front door than
she notices that Xander and Dawn are there,
along with Anya, Willow and Giles. Xander looks kind of worse
for wear, and Dawn looks... pissed. Buffy
walks over and stands in front of her sister, who, after a few
seconds, kicks her in the shins. No whiny
Dawn here, dear friends-- all cool focus and intent. Just think,
if the fans who had wanted Dawn killed off
sometime during the past several years had gotten their way, we
would have never gotten to hear the
( Buffy looks over at Xander, who just throws up his hands. )
Xander: Don't look at me, this is a Summers' thing. It's all very
Buffy: (looking back at Dawn) You get killed, I'm telling.
While the main focus of Chosen is undoubtably about Buffy, I admired
the way that each of the
characters were given some great moments, even if they were fairly
brief in terms of screen time. Dawn
gets a number of other good moments besides this one, some subtle
and others less so, but the moments
collectively add up to defining her character perfectly as it
currently exists at this point in the mythology.
The same is true with Anya, as in this last scene and the one
following, where she shows her affection for
Xander in minor but expressive ways, such as when she gently pats
his head after the 'eye-socket' joke falls
flat. While it might be questionable to presume that Anya's affection
for humans extends much beyond
Xander, (despite last week's Andrew/Anya interaction) her role
in the final battle proves otherwise. In
getting past Xander's past betrayal and accepting that she loves
him anyway, Anya has learned that this
forgiveness stuff humans keep going on about really is more personally
satisfying than vengeance ever was.
If we haven't begun to realize it already, it soon becomes more
and more apparent that the overall tone of
this season finale is different than all of the ones that have
come before. There has been a fair amount of
commentary posted to date that attempts to place Chosen either
stylistically or thematically in
groups with previous season-enders, with varying degrees of success.
I think that one of the primary
reasons why this is such a challenging effort is that Chosen really
isn't like any of the previous
It is my personal observation that the ME crew in general and
Joss in particular have worked hard to make
each and every year of BtVS end differently in some important
way. The yearly endgame needs to serve
what are normally contradictory requirements-- the seasonal arc
must have a sense of resolution or
completeness, but at the same time it can never definitively 'end'
things on a macrocosmic scale, to allow
the possibility of future stories. While to some degree you can
revisit the same basic human issues over and
over again as the characters grown and change, literal repetition
of events quickly leads to boredom. Joss
promised that the seventh season would be about going 'back to
the beginning', but at the same time both
he and we know that this can't be done, not literally anyway.
It is impossible to capture the raw energy of
the first few years, not unless you are willing to let your characters
live in a perpetual time-warp. If
Chosen lacks the firey energy of Becoming or Graduation Day, I'm
not sure that is
because the writers have gotten tired or are running out of ideas,
but more likely because the adult world
just doesn't have that kind of energy, at least not most of the
time. Who the hell would ever make 30 if it
did? One of my fave ironic/funny quotes over the years has been
the one another 'Blondie' penned, namely
Die young, stay pretty. Well, that may be true, but on the other
hand-- dead, ya know? So
Chosen is a show who tempo modulates to a more adult rhythm, as
did most of the last season. It
has allegro measures, but also counterpoints them with more evocative
One of which is up next, as Buffy descends the basement stairs
and finds Spike has been working away at a
punching bag with a crudely drawn paper image of Angel taped to
the top front of it. She seems more
amused than angry, certainly a sign of growth on her part:
Spike: So where's tall, dark and forehead?
Buffy: Let me guess. You can smell him.
Spike: Yeah, that and I also used my heightened vampire eyeballs
to watch you kissing him.
Buffy: It was a... hello. I was surprised.
Spike: Most people don't use their tongues to say hello. Or, I
guess they do, but --
Buffy: There were no tongues. Besides, he's gone.
Spike: Just popped round for a quickie, then?
Buffy: Good, good, I haven't had quite enough jealous vampire
Spike: He wears lifts, you know.
Buffy: One of these days, I'm just gonna put you two in a room
and let you rassle it out.
Spike: No problem at this end.
Buffy: (warming up to it) There could maybe be oil of some kind
Spike: Where's the trinket?
Buffy: The who-ket?
Spike: The pretty necklace your sweetie-bear gave you. The one
with all the power. I believe it's
Buffy: How do you figure?
Spike: Someone with a soul, but more than human... Angel meant
to wear it, that means I'm the
Buffy: It's volatile. We don't know...
Spike: You need someone strong to bear it then. You were planning
on giving it to Andrew?
Buffy: Angel said... this amulet is meant to be worn by a champion.
( A beat, as he deflates. Then Buffy holds it out to him, and
he understands her meaning. Slowly takes it. )
Spike: Been called a lot of things in my time...
Buffy: (quietly) Faith's still got my room.
Spike: (looks up) Well you're not staying here! Can't buy me off
with shiny beads and sweet talk --
you've got Angel breath.
( She looks down, nods quietly. )
Spike: Won't just let you whack me back and forth like a rubber
ball. I've got my pride, you know.
( She starts to go. )
Buffy: I understand.
Spike: (moves to block her) Clearly you don't, since that whole
"having my pride" thing was a
Buffy: (very relieved) Oh thank god.
Spike: I don't know what I would have done if you'd gone up those
~ ~ ~ ( Continued in Part IV ) ~ ~ ~
[> [> [> [> And
the link to parts I & II which are End of Days inside -- s'kat,
08:10:53 06/26/03 Thu
This half is on end of days. So the above is part III of OnM's
[> Dude! -- HonorH,
23:16:18 06/25/03 Wed
Keep 'em coming, OnM!
(I just about called you "Big O" back there. That could've
I like your interpretation of how Buffy rose. It's always her
mental and emotional state that determines how well she fights--always!
In this case, she'll be sore later, but at that moment, there
was no way in heaven, earth, or hell that she wasn't going to
tell the First to piss off, then make it do just that.
As for the cutting-of-hands thing, no, it doesn't make any physical
sense. It might, though, make emotional sense. What I thought
upon seeing it, though, was that it was an initiation rite. The
girls anoint the Seal with their blood, mix it, and when they
descend into the midworld that is the Hellmouth, they're bonded.
They're one in blood and strength.
[> [> Well, possibly
because -- fresne, 09:11:37 06/26/03 Thu
They are the hands.
It's just a good thing they aren't the hearts. Cause that would
have been problematic.
[> [> [> ROTFLOL!!!
-- LittleBit, 12:38:33 06/26/03 Thu
[> Re: Dreamer Easy in the
Chair That Really Fits You - Thoughts on *End of Days* & *Chosen*
- Part V -- grifter, 04:40:49 06/26/03 Thu
Dude, you really HAVE learned from Joss...always keep ´em
craving for more. Can´t wait for part VI.
I´m rewatching the episode while reading this, should have
thought of that with your previous episode reviews! Duh!
[> Dreamer Easy in the Chair
That Really Fits You - Parts I, II, & III -- Rosie, 09:00:33
Could the author of "Dreamer Easy in the Chair That Really
Fits You" re-post parts I, II and III of his or her essay?
[> Part III is reposted
below Part IV and Part II & I have a link -- s'kat, 09:06:20
See the posts below OnM's Part IV.
of Harry Potter on Slate -- mamcu, 07:21:18 06/26/03 Thu
There's an interesting discussion of the politics of Harry Potter
and other "children's" fantasy books (including a good
list of them at one point) on Slate today:
[> Sorry, mamcu - spelt
your name wrong on thread below! -- Marie, 08:07:06 06/26/03
[> Need Charleston advice,
mamcu [OT] -- Kenny,
12:09:49 06/26/03 Thu
mamcu, could you drop me an email? I little bird told me you live
in Charleston. I'm moving there in August and could use some suggestions
on where to look for an apartment. Thanks.
[> [> If only! --
mamcu, 14:49:47 06/26/03 Thu
Sigh--not since I was five. Now I live in the ugly stepsister
town, Columbia. So I know how to hit Charleston for a great weekend
(but there aren't any in August!) but not much about living there.
You'll love it, though. But I do know the town a bit, so I'll
[> Culled these books from
the article -- pr10n, 13:57:48 06/26/03 Thu
Thanks for the point-out, mamcu. That was an interesting read.
I snagged these authors and titles from the llist:
The Scottish Victorian mystic George Macdonald's The Princess
and the Goblin
Turn-of-the-century Fabian socialist Edith Nesbit's Five Children
Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising series
Robert C. O'Brien's The Silver Crown
Diana Wynne Jones' "Chrestomanci" series and Dogsbody
Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials [of course, Pullman's
a big favorite here, so read the Sally Lockhart books too.]
The article also mentioned Roald Dahl and Dr. Seuss and Tolkien,
Can I throw in a plug for the Lemony Snicket A Series of Unfortunate
Events books? Oh so funny.
[> [> don't forget...
-- xanthe, 14:13:33 06/26/03 Thu
...the mention of Suzy McKee Charnas's fabulous Sorcerery Hall
Trilogy: The Bronze King, The Silver Glove, and The Golden Thread.
Together they make up a great urban fantasy with just the right
combination of grubby everyday details, sharp humor, and epic
sorcerery as told by a high school girl who's still figuring things
out. Definitely a favorite! I was thrilled that they got a mention
since they are at least ten years old and haven't gotten a lot
[> [> [> Thanks for
the catch, xanthe! Charnas -- to the Library! AWAY! -- pr10n,
15:02:41 06/26/03 Thu
-- LittleBit, Random and LadyStarlight, 07:34:49 06/26/03 Thu
There's a new Behind
the Scenes entry!
Yes, we know, you can't contain your excitement, but try, okay?
The neighbours don't like it when you start shrieking with glee!
[> WooHoo!!!!! -- O'Cailleagh,
08:16:54 06/26/03 Thu
I can finally read these cos Buffy has finished so no fear of
And what a treat it was too!
I must say you really are a scary bunch once all the Evils come
out to play...of course I knew that already! ;-)
[> Cool! -- ponygoyle,
08:23:32 06/26/03 Thu
Finally someone realizes that I'm more of a romantic lead!
It's good to see the demons and the evils out again. I was thinking
during the discussion on The Screwtape Letters that what was really
missing was the demonic reader perspective. Evil alter-egos enjoy
book clubs too - why do you think Oprah did so well? In any case
I felt I couldn't comment on Screwtape since he and I had a history
(see above re: romantic lead).
In any case keep up the good work! I mean evil work - you know
what I mean. We demons need a fun summer project and I think hunting
and slaughtering Voynak, hopefully with a lot of senseless casualities,
could be just the thing!
[> [> Yes! -- Medusa,
09:43:57 06/26/03 Thu
I'm only half-way through the book*, but it occurred to me immediately
that it's written from my perspective! As someone who sees the
Eternal Struggle as a game with inexplicable rules and dubious
rewards, I immediately felt a slight kinship with Screwtape. Who,
may I add, doesn't have ponygoyle's scruples in discussing past
affairs. (I think he mentioned something about riding crops, pg.
I didn't ask him to explain.)
It's nice to know I'm finally able to call people names again.
Some of the best times of my life were when I was able to give
Arethusa the slip and slay trolls in her name. Watching her be
overcome with remorse and guilt was icing on the cake.
*(Darn those RL intrusions!)
[> [> [> Re: Yes!
-- ponygoyle, 10:51:10 06/26/03 Thu
Glad you're enjoying the book Medusa! People assume that we demons
are all cable tv and tabloids. We can be as cultured as the next
I don't want to give the impression that Screwtape and I had a
capital R romance. Our letter and rating would probably be G,
as in get me outta here. Sure he wrote nice letters but he was
always going on about tempting humans with the subtle joys of
sloth and celebrity gossip, and I was like "fine, but when
do we kill someone?" And don't even get me started on his
family! Wormwood was actually the sharpest scythe in that weapons
[> [> [> [> Some
demons just can't leave their work at the office. -- Medusa,
11:05:04 06/26/03 Thu
Screwtape is overly fond of subtlety. I find his obsession with
obtaining souls via trickery to be, well, overly complicated and
time-consuming. (There's no reason why immortality should be tedious.)
You want another soul, just separate it from its body with a sword.
There's enough evil souls in the world to not bother with the
I had a class with Wormwood's brother, Gall. We taunted him unmercifully
and he never even noticed. (Or maybe he enjoyed it, the little
[> Apparently...me and Kds
have power over voy??? What power?LOL! -- s'kat, 09:02:35
[> [> The struggle against
Voynak... -- Masq, anti-Voynak warrior, 11:09:52 06/26/03
...is a popularity contest. Voynak cannot stand against someone
whose posts get a flurry of replies. In fact, Voynak is known
to get huge tumors, also known as the-threads-that-wouldn't-die.
These are, oddly, often threads started by the aforementioned
[> [> [> Re: The struggle
against Voynak... -- s'kat, 14:13:27 06/26/03 Thu
Ahem...we've been voy-naked quite a bit of late. I know poor KdS
has - hi/r essay on Peace-Out was gone pretty fast.
So I think it's more subject matter than poster.
IF you really really want to know the trick for getting people
to respond? Post something that is controversial - ie can either
be completely agreed with or completely argued, divisive topic,
push buttons but not to the degree that people want you to disappear
off the face of the earth.
Ie - be careful to say you are open to discussion.
The essays I've posted that lasted the longest?
Sadomasochism Metaphors, Season 7 Critique, Soul Metaphors,
Angel and Spike Restraining the Monster, and Xander the Sidekick.
Willow essay jumped to archives fast. My essay on anya/Spike -
extreemely quickly, Fatals...made it for a while but all the responses
were either off topic or on Spike, everyone ignored the Lilah/Cordy
stuff, and the transcripts of Tim Minears commentary gone quick.
really has less to do with the poster and a lot more to do with
the content of the post.
I have noticed an odd trend - if a post contains anything on B/S,
B/A, C/A or Connor/cordy - expect a flurry of responses. Also
anything arguing about moral character of Spike or Angel. Seems
to just be what people are obsessed with. Same thing on other
Although I'll have to admit, I'm often shocked by the things I
post that get a flurry of responses and the things I post that
don't. There are times...I'll go to the board, apprehensive, and
zip will be there, and times I'll go and think - God, what did
I do??? My authority post was one of those experiences. So yep
- it all has to do with what you are posting on.
[> Random servicing the
Spikebot? That I'm sorry I missed. -- Annethema, 09:35:49
[> A Gathering of Evils,
and I wasn't invited?! You shall pay for this--all of you!
-- The Unclean (more than a little upset), 09:42:30 06/26/03
[> [> Oops...a couple
mistakes in the transcription. 'Bit is dedicated but sometimes
a little careless... -- Random, 09:55:50 06/26/03 Thu
We've fixed them. Remember, this is a work in progress...things
change from day-to-day as we strive for accuracy. Come back often.
[> [> [> BTW, is that
you, Darby? We would make fewer mistakes if we recognized the
voice.... -- Random, 10:00:35 06/26/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> Sorry
about that, folks. DemonBrother can be very insecure sometimes....
-- cjl, 10:09:01 06/26/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Heh...thanks...we can't *all* wear the Beanie of Wisdom...thanks
for helping us fix the LJ -- Random, getting by with a little
help from my fiends, 10:15:31 06/26/03 Thu
[> [> [> I am *not*
careless... -- LittleBite, 10:03:36 06/26/03 Thu
I just choose not to have drool all over my keyboard. And it isn't
that easy to remember everything.
[> Help! I can't stop the
transformation!! -- Scroll, 10:27:38 06/26/03 Thu
Scroll: What the f---? "Dry piece of parchment"?!?!
"Little Canadian Connor-lovin' suck-up"?!?!!!!
She gasps, chokes, fumes at the sheer audacity of CathSith
and LittleBite's erroneous insults. Then -- suddenly -- brown
eyes behind thick glasses roll up so only the whites show.
Scroll: Oh, my God! What's happening to me? [panicked]
What's happening to me! Arrrrgh!!
She claws at her face in fear. Something slowly appears on
the surface of the eyeballs. Two blue triangles bob up like bath
toys in water. On the triangles, twin messages appear...
DEATH. TO. ALL. POSTERS.
The creature within the poster known as Scroll slowly gains
strength, its watery power bubbling up like a well-spring until
the perfect moment of release. Soft, creamy skin turns obsidian,
slick and hard. On its forehead, stamped in pasty white, is the
most dreaded of symbols, the prophetic number of doom:
It is the creature of legends! The dark monster that foretells
the painful and most tormented deaths of all ATPo posters!! It's
the fearsome, rapacious, prophetic...
Queen of the Magic 8 Ball of Doom
Prophetess and Destroyer
who is going to
kill. you. all....
board | More
CathSith and LittleBite look around fearfully, aware that every
drop of moisture, the water bottles sitting innocently on the
refreshment table, the liquids in their very bodies, must obey
the calling of the Water Mistress. They are doomed, and they know
CathSith: You hear that? That kind of... "whoosh"
LittleBite: No, I -- wait. Yeah, yeah, I can hear it. What
is that? Where is it...
She gasps, turns fearfully to stare bug-eyed at the front door
of LadyS' velvet swagged lair. The door is closed, but behind
it is the noisy, drowning sound of rushing water. CathSith clings
tightly to her. And then...
[> [> Ack! Dehydration!
Need some Black Frost Beer!.... -- LittleBite, 10:41:30
aaah, that hits the...Bite like beer....beer good....boy smell
nice...[sees large tree limb, whaps Poseidonia]
That was fun!! Do it again! Do it again!
[> [> [> You *dare*
challenge the Prophetess of Doom?! -- Poseidonia, the Water
Goddess, 10:54:36 06/26/03 Thu
CathSith could only scream as her flesh was ground into a kind
of sticky paste beneath my waves. And even her pathetic little
whimpers were lost as my swells covered her worthless body.
You -- since you DARE to mock me -- can suffer an eternal
torment, trapped in a steel cage at the bottom of my depths. All
things considered, Connor's punishment for his hypocrite of a
"father" is perfect and needs no improvement. He is,
after all, my blue-eyed boy.
Poseidonia casually tosses 'Bite into a big box, slams it shut,
and plops the whole thing into the middle of the Pacific.
Such is the fate of those who challenge my power! I am the Mistress
of Waves, the Goddess of Storms! My wrath is like a tidal wave
come to crush your puny life raft. My pets are monsters
of the deep you could not even fathom, so hideous are their slick
bodies and so horrific are their appetites. They will naw on your
bones for all eternity...
Heh. Hope you don't grow too many barnacles on your backside.
I hear that can get really itchy!
[> [> [> [> I dare.
I double dare. And I have ice cream afterward. -- LittleBite,
11:07:24 06/26/03 Thu
Thanks for the lovely swim. But perhaps you've forgotten that
my alter ego is Goddess of Feedback, Chat and Devilry, and First
Naughty Evil. And she decided that the cage was simply the wrong
[Picks up Poseidonia and shakes her like an 8-ball] Ooooo...look!
It says "Don't even think about it."
[> [> [> [> [>
Wha? Where am I? Bit, what's going on? -- Scroll, 11:16:15
Why are you holding me upside down? Hey, let me up! Thanks. Whew,
why are my sneakers all squishy and my hair all wet? You haven't
been playing more practical jokes on innocent little ol' me, have
you? Cuz I've never done anything to deserve that kind
*blinks big brown eyes*
Why is there a fish flopping in your hair?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Nice try, Miss Big Brown Eyes -- LittleBit [removing
grouper from hair], 11:53:55 06/26/03 Thu
Next time your evil self tries to cage me at the bottom of the
sea, tell her Prophetess and Destroyer self for me that she'd
do better to check the prophesy before destroying.
I'll let it slide this one time.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> So did Wesley find you in the ocean's depths?
-- Masq, 12:01:39 06/26/03 Thu
Did he send Justine down to fetch you?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> mmmmm.... Wesley.... -- LittleBit, 12:09:28
The mouth-to-mouth resuscitation was just yummy.
'Bit [who didn't mention the whole vampire thing]
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Wes didn't need Justine -- lunasea,
13:14:19 06/26/03 Thu
I would go to any depths to find my mistress and have her and
her delicious cookies brought to safety.
Besides, any excuse to see Wesley. We spent an entire hour talking
about how Angel's tatoo is most definitely NOT a Griffin and what
incredible artists the illuminators for the Book of Kells were.
He promised me a first hand look at it, if I promised not to drool.
I couldn't lie to him (who could lie to those eyes) and did not
get my peak.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Well, I'll take her then
-- Masq, feeling punchy two days before *vacation*, 13:58:49
[> [> scroll! that's
hilarious! you have unexpected...depths! -- anom, 12:09:30
[> [> [> I am fathoms
deep, I am in the air you breathe. None can escape my power!
-- Poseidonia, the Mistress of Monsoons, 12:22:01 06/26/03
[> [> [> [> Re:
I am fathoms deep, I am in the air you breathe. None can escape
my power! -- Masq, 12:36:25 06/26/03 Thu
Plus, she knows all the good websites for Faith/Eliza pics!
[> [> [> [> Oh,
puh-leeze! If only I had a pair of shoes for every time I've heard
*that* one! -- Honorificus (Who Fills The World With Her Might),
19:04:18 06/26/03 Thu
You're new, sweetie, so I'll go easy on you. Advice: get over
yourself before I start finding you too annoying. You've got points
for perverting that namby-pamby Scroll. Don't lose 'em.
Oh, and book club at my place next week. Bring a dish and a minion.
[> Darn! The gig's up!
-- HonorH (holding back Honorificus), 11:28:09 06/26/03 Thu
Now all of you know why I disappeared shortly after the finale.
My Super-Annoying Alter-Ego has been doing extra time in the body
while planning her revolt. And you know what? I'm afraid I haven't
been fighting her nearly as much as I should.
Plus, I stalked and killed a Mary Sue with Rhysdux. That was fuuuun.
[> ok, how did this happen?
-- anom, 12:02:54 06/26/03 Thu
Not only weren't they at the meeting, but demanom & anomster aren't
even on the alter evil list! I know they haven't been on the board
much (well, anomster is more a creature of chat, having been born
there), but demanom wrote that fine "how can *anyone* still
be a redemptionista" post in the very first (& it
was very First!) Evil Alter Ego thread!
I WAS THERE FROM THE BEGINNING! HOW DARE YOU EXCLUDE ME! YOU'LL
PAY FOR YOUR--
See? (OK, deme, c'mon--that's enough Ripple for you!)
Aside from these CRUCIAL DEFECTS, I really enjoyed your
latest--several LOL moments there! BTW, the First Naughty isn't
on the EAE list either--I was a little confused till I got to
the end of the piece. But you WILL correct these INEXCUSABLE
omissions, won't you? DAMN RIGHT YOU WILL!!! Deme! That's
enough! (Um, I've been trying to integrate my dark side
lately LIKE I'D LET THAT HAPPEN!...it's a complex, ongoing
process [umph!]...that I'm just at the beginning of....)
[> [> I went and listened
to the tapes again. Sure enough, there you were. Blame Bit's "transcription"
-- Random, glaring at Bit, 12:28:16 06/26/03 Thu
[> [> [> Wait a minute!!!
There were *tapes*?!?!?! -- LittleBit [Glaring at Ran], 12:30:26
[> [> [> Ahh, the
best kind of editing job; the kind that includes me! -- Annethema,
leaning back in her chair contentedly., 13:56:11 06/26/03 Thu
[> Finally that damn cheerleader's
gone for good! Mwahahahaha!!! -- RobAndMurder, 12:57:15
[> [> You think so? Heheh.
Heheheheh. [can't contain self any longer...gales of naughty laughter]
-- The First Naughty, 09:17:03 06/27/03 Fri
[> It was wonderful, being
chewed in such good company -- mamcu the masticated, 14:36:21
Some people will die for a little attention!
[> Years of posting and
that lout Saguaro Stalker gets all the glory! -- Cactus Watcher,
19:03:16 06/26/03 Thu
I warned him about messsing with Whipwowman, but what can you
do when his head keeps growing back just as dumb as ever. By the
way Unclean, you wouldn't want to hold hands with the Stalker,
he has a bad habit of leaning against one saguaro while he's spying
on another. The dumby ought to call himself Saguaro Victim or
He Who Screams In The Desert Night! And they think those big cacti
are defenseless, ho, ho.
[> A quick note about the
name.... -- The Unclean, 20:12:57 06/26/03 Thu
I am Unclean in the sense that my very existence is a rebuke to
the Mortal Realm's belief in the purity and goodness of their
I am the Pestilence in the Garden.
I am the Rot on the Crown of Thorns.
I am the Rust underneath the Throne of Heaven.
(All this is metaphorical, you understand. I'm actually very fussy
about personal hygiene.)
[> Oh dear, how embarrassing.
-- OnM, 07:45:56 06/27/03 Fri
And here I thought I had deleted all those background research
files on trans-dimensional portals after I was done working on
that fanfic last summer. I even reformatted the drive afterward,
'cos I know how sneaky that damn Clone is!
BTW, for the record, I do not own a paisley shirt.
[> AHA! Just as I was warned.
LadyS's friendly email was just to nefariously verify my plumbing.
-- WickedMoue ::tossing self & V. Rabbit into nearby chasm::,
10:11:38 06/27/03 Fri