June 2001 posts
New Slayer -- vampire hunter D, 13:38:42 06/09/01
Sat
Alright, I know I've been accused of beating a dead horse with
this, because everone knows that Joss has said that there will
be no new slayer. But has it occured to anyone that Joss can,
and does, change his mind? All this no new slayer stuff comes
from an interview he did over a year ago. Well, a year ago, Joss
was still panning on making Tara part demon. But as we all saw,
he canged his mind and did something else with her. Wesley was
supposed to die after only two episodes, and yet he's still here.
So why does everybody think that this prohibition on a new slayer
is set in stone? (and by the way, stone can be smashed, so don't
ever think anything is permanent)
If anyoneone is wondering why I'm seemingly obsessed with this
subject, it's because I've spent some time thinking who the new
slayer should be (I have a very boring job that gives me lots
of time to think of stuff like this). I've even come up with a
specific girl (by this, I mean we've already seen her). If anyone's
interested, I'll post who I came up with on a future thread.
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[> Re: New Slayer -- Andy, 05:38:55 06/10/01 Sun
Obviously Whedon can change his mind, being the boss and all :)
However, one of the staff writers, Steven DeKnight was online
a couple of weeks ago saying that there would be no new slayers
called by Buffy's death, which would seem to indicate that Joss
hasn't changed his mind. I think that the writers probably feel
that they shouldn't bring up another slayer because it would dilute
the concept too much. "One girl in all the world..."
They've bent that as far as they can with the second slayer being
called by Buffy's flukish flatline experience, but you bring in
a third slayer and you may risk things getting out of hand. Kind
of like in Marvel comics, when they kept having people come along
and lift Thor's hammer over the years, becoming Thors in their
own right, until it reached the ultimate in self parody when they
did a comic called Thor Corps in the late 80's :)
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[> [> Re: New Slayer -- Liam, 10:04:48 06/11/01 Mon
Regarding whether a new slayer has been called now that Buffy's
really (as opposed to mostly in 'Prophecy Girl') dead, I recall
a reference in the third season episode 'Enemies', where Angel
made Faith and the Mayor believe that he was Angelus again. The
Mayor endorsed 'Angelus's' desire to kill Buffy, but told him
not to be too quick, due to the fact that another slayer would
be called. This is something the writers have to get around.
This issue on whether there will or won't be a new slayer reminds
me of the debates over Angel and what a moment of true happiness
exactly was. We only found out by 'Epiphany'.
Where to from here? -- Robin,
16:29:45 06/09/01 Sat
To be honest this is my first visit to this sight and I'm really
in search of alittle info. I hope my questions don't come across
as too stupid, I'm alittle behind in the info department.
Where do I find the show next fall, if not on the WB?
Is SMG for sure, back next year? Though you all might have answered
that in some of your discussions.
What do you all think is the best bet for the future of the gang?
How does this affect Angel, if at all?
I don't think resurrection is their best bet, but what other options
are there?
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[> Re: Where to from here? -- Wisewoman, 16:52:26 06/09/01
Sat
Hey, Robin:
I can't speak for the whole gang, but I'll try to get you up to
speed with as much as I know, right now.
Buffy will be on UPN next year.
Yes, SMG is back, for SURE, next year.
For speculations on the future of the gang, check out the various
threads below that deal with the Scoobies.
As far as I can tell, the way that this will affect Angel is that
the two shows will be on different networks so there may not be
any more crossover episodes (although it's not impossible.)
We're all speculating on what the options are for bringing Buffy
back: resurrection, rebirth, etc. Let us know what your thoughts
are!
Cheers, Wisewoman
Repentance -- Malandanza, 22:28:06
06/09/01 Sat
I picked up a copy of Mark Twain's "Letters From Earth"
a few days ago (OnM recommended it several months ago) and came
upon an essay on repentance:
"It is curious -- the misassociation of certain words. For
instance, the word Repentance. Through want of reflection we associate
it exclusively with Sin. We get the notion early, and keep it
always, that we repent of bad deeds only; whereas we do a formidably
large business in repenting of good deeds which we have done.
Often when we repent of a sin, we do it perfunctorily, from principle,
coldly and from the head; but when we repent of a good deed, the
repentance comes hot and bitter and straight from the heart. Often
when we repent of a sin, we can forgive ourselves and drop the
matter out of mind; but when we repent of a good deed, we seldom
get peace -- we go on repenting to the end. And the repentance
is perennially young and strong and vivid and vigorous! A great
benefaction conferred with your whole heart upon an ungrateful
man -- with what immortal persistence and never-cooling energy
do you repent that! Repentance of a sin is a pale, poor, perishable
thing compared with it...In my time I have committed several millions
of sins. Many of them I probably repented of -- I do not remember
now; others I was partly minded to repent of, but it did not seem
worthwhile; all of them but the recent ones and a few scattering
former ones I have forgotten, In my time I have done eleven good
deeds. I remember all of them, four of them with crystal clearness.
These four I repent of whenever I think of them -- and it is not
seldomer than fifty-two times a year. I repent of them in the
same old original furious way, undiminished, always. If I wake
up away in the night, they are there, waiting and ready; and they
keep me company till the morning. I have not committed any sin
that has lasted me like this save one; and have not repented of
any sin with the unmodifying earnestness and sincerity with which
I have repented of these four gracious beautiful good deeds."
On BtVS and AtS, Angel is the charcter who best personifies Repentance.
He sits home and "alphabetizes his sins." Yet, there
is part of him that has not completely abandoned the past -- the
part that intimidates his adversaries, the part that emerged as
Noir Angel, the part that became uncomfortable when Harmony began
discussing drinking blood. Compare his repentance of evil with
Angelus' repentance of good -- remember when Buffy and Angelus
were possessed by ghosts? Afterward, Angelus is scrubbing himself
to be freed from the goodness he had endured (Spike's comment:
"They say once you've drawn blood, you've exfoliated.")
He ends up trying to destroy the world rather than endure the
constant toment of his "conscience" from the good deeds
he had done as Angel. Brooding, unhappy Angel's repentance of
evil is, indeed, a "pale, poor, perishable thing compared
with" Angelus' repentance of good.
Other characters have committed horrible acts (like Buffy knifing
Faith in the hope that she could feed Faith's blood to Angel)
and have easily repented. But Buffy's anger toward Faith was because
she had been on Faith's side, she had stood up for Faith when
no one else would, even after Faith had proven herself unworthy
-- and this noble deed is what Buffy deeply repented of during
her trip to L.A.
Is evil a stronger force in the Buffyverse? Are the evil creatures
more dedicated, more devoted to their cause than the forces of
good? Or are our heroes just poor examples -- compared with groups
like the KoB and creatures like Angelus?
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[> Re: Repentance - No good deed goes unpunished, indeed? --
OnM, 20:10:36 06/11/01 Mon
*** "But Buffy's anger toward Faith was because she had been
on Faith's side, she had stood up for Faith when no one else would,
even after Faith had proven herself unworthy -- and this noble
deed is what Buffy deeply repented of during her trip to L.A."
***
Mal, I can't figure why nobody's posted anything yet, this is
such an excellent observation.
I don't think the issue comes up with evil people, because when
you target someone with a negative action, you pretty much expect
that the recipient isn't going to like it.
On the other hand, while we give plenty of lip service to the
idea of giving without expectation of reward, I think that very,
very few humans are truly that enlightened (certainly not me!),
to give and simply accept if the favor is ignored or even dissed.
From a purely self-serving standpoint, there is no reason why
we should give anything to anyone else, unless it is something
that serves our own self interest. Many posters have made this
point about Spike, at least before events of the last few eps
of S5.
Buffy stuck her neck out to support Faith, even when everyone
else was set against her. Whether her motivations were entirely
pure, or contained an element of self-interest is a subject for
debate all on it's own, but Faith essentially spitting back her
thoughtfulness in her face was certainly reason to 'repent' of
her kind action.
Guys, this is a good topic, methinks. Comments from ya'all?
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[> [> Re: Repentance - No good deed goes unpunished, indeed?
-- Rufus, 20:54:57 06/11/01 Mon
I have been thinking about this post since I first saw it. I have
experience in people regretting a good deed as it blew up in their
face. No deed goes unpunished good or bad, we just may not like
the punishment.
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[> [> [> Re: Forshadowing Faith -- Brian, 03:40:29 06/12/01
Tue
Your thoughts reflect some of my own ideas about Faith. Her actions
towards Buffy were more than jealousy. Faith was trying to become
Buffy, and through the Mayor's help, she succeeded. But then,
she had to pay a price. (More when I get to a full character analysis.)
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[> [> [> [> Re: Forshadowing Faith -- Rufus, 15:53:02
06/12/01 Tue
Oh, good I hope you liked when Faith actually got to be Buffy....first
it was a nice game then she actually understood what it was to
be a slayer. She got to walk a mile in Buffys shoes and she became
a different person for it. I await your examination of Faith.
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[> [> Re: Repentance - No good deed goes unpunished, indeed?
-- JoRus, 07:27:59 06/12/01 Tue
Ah, anyone who quotes Oscar Wilde is all right by me, OnM...:
) It is a nasty surprise to do a "good deed" and have
it detonate in your face. Whether or not you expectsomething like
gratitude, getting a negative back from someone you have extended
a positive to is sort of unnerving, to the burns in the gut and
mind that Twain is describing. Yes, I think that's part of the
anger Buffy had toward Faith, and that the scoobies had toward
Angelus.
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[> [> [> Re: Repentance - No good deed goes unpunished,
indeed? -- Halcyon, 01:13:51 06/13/01 Wed
I think you mean Xander and Giles, they are the only ones who
seem to display any anger towards Angel after he came back from
Hell. Xander because in his mind he had been proven right about
Angel and Giles because Angel/Angelus had killed Jenny.
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[> Re: Repentance -- Vickie, 13:11:31 06/13/01 Wed
(Delurking here.) I think that a second sense of Twain's words
is that we often repent the unforeseen consequences of our good
intentions. Not that (necessarily) we are returned evil for good
(though that certainly happens), but that we do good (or what
is intended for good) and our flawed human inability to see all
possible outcomes (or to do whatever we intend perfectly) sandbags
us and the final effect is not what we intend.
For example, when Angel takes Cordy's left-behind clothes to Anne,
he has at least three good intentions:
1. Clear out some stuff that's bugging him by being around. 2.
Get on Anne's good side, and continue his research into the badness
that is Wolfram and Hart. 3. Contribute something to the teen
center.
But, because he has an imperfect understanding (and inability
to predict the future), he doesn't realize the really bad consequences
this act will have on his reconciliation with Cordelia.
This feels like a really lame example. I'm sure one of you can
think of something better. Thoughts?
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[> [> Thanks for de-lurking! Good post! -- OnM, 15:33:41
06/13/01 Wed
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[> [> The Law of Unintended Consequences -- Humanitas, 09:05:44
06/14/01 Thu
Your example is excellent. In fact, a lot of historians consider
this to be a major force driving all of history. One of my professors
back in college called it The Law of Unintended Consequenses,
and used it to explain most of Roman history. The other expression
of this principle comes from Harlan Ellison, who claims the "the
only reason anything ever happens in history is because It Seemed
Like a Good Idea at the Time."
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[> [> Re: Repentance -- Malandanza, 17:42:01 06/15/01 Fri
"I think that a second sense of Twain's words is that we
often repent the unforeseen consequences of our good intentions.
Not that (necessarily) we are returned evil for good (though that
certainly happens), but that we do good (or what is intended for
good) and our flawed human inability to see all possible outcomes
(or to do whatever we intend perfectly) sandbags us and the final
effect is not what we intend."
I don't think Mark Twain meant that he had repented of the unforeseen
consequences -- in fact, there is no mention of any consequences,
good or bad. He was talking about "repenting" his good
deeds because the person he had helped had been ungrateful --
and comparing this all-consuming regret with the repentance we
typically associate with sin. Granted, my view may be slightly
darker since I read the repentance essay in the context of "Letters
From Earth" -- a very cynical collection of short stories
(which were published posthumously and after many year's delay
because of the objections of Twain's daughter).
But I think he brings up a valid point -- that repentance is too
easy in today's world. Looking back at the literature of the dark
ages (and the early accounts of the martyrdom of the Catholic
saints), we see repentance of evil in a far more serious light.
Penitents would undergo all manner of self-abuse and forego all
luxuries in an attempt to scourge themselves of their sins. I
remember some of the 13th century Arthurian legends ending with
Lancelot joining a monastery and Guinevere entering a convent
to spend their remaining years in penance. Of the BtVS characters,
Faith is the only person who has done any real penance (beyond
mental self-flagellation).
In Hamlet, King Claudius attempts to repent of the murder of his
brother -- shortly after the "mousetrap" scene. Ultimately,
he recognizes that he cannot truly repent while still enjoying
the rewards that his sins have brought him. Unwilling to renounce
his position, his wife and his wealth, he says: "My words
fly up, my thoughts remain below. / Words without thoughts never
to heaven go." He dies unrepentant. In Dante's Inferno, there
is also an interesting comment on repentance -- Guido da Montefeltro
had been a great tactician and warrior while alive. Toward the
end of his life, he repented of his bloody life, renounced his
worldly possessions and entered a monastery. Pope Boniface VIII
came to him and asked him to help him in his military campaigns
-- Guido was reluctant as he had sincerely repented of his former
life, but the Pope offered him absolution (and made a veiled threat
regarding excommunication) so Guido agreed. He helped the Pope,
then returned to his monastic life. Upon his death, both an angel
and a demon showed up to take possession of his soul -- the demon
won, arguing:"One can't absolve a man who's not repented,
/ and no one can repent and will at once; / the law of contradiction
won't allow it. / ..Perhaps / you did not think that I was a logician!"
In the Buffyverse, we have seen morally ambiguous deeds performed
by virtually every member of the Scoobies, with very few consequences.
The lack of consequences, particularly of punishment, results
in an inability for the characters to feel absolved of their sins
-- and results in inner conflicts which manifest themselves on
occasion.
For example: Look at Xander's behavior toward Buffy at the start
of Season 3. In Dead Man's Party, he is ruthless. And why? He
betrayed Buffy in B2 by failing to give her Willow's message and
had this betrayal eating away at him for the duration of the summer.
Also consider Buffy's knifing of Faith. When Faith returned, Buffy
went out of her way to give Faith the benefit of the doubt --
because of unresolved feelings of guilt. Willow and Xander's betrayal
of Oz and Cordelia was also never satisfactorily resolved. Oz
proved that he was still bothered by it when he brought up the
situation when Willow was reviling him about Veruca. Willow continues
to flirt with Xander and fight with Anya, so she has not really
repented of the deed -- furthermore, she was too willing to have
sex with Oz by way of reparation (a virgin sacrifice to atone
for her past sins :). Giles, of course, is especially problematic
-- will he ever repent of killing Ben? There was a smirking superiority
about him when he spent Ben's last few moments of life gloating
over Ben's upcoming demise.
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[> Re: Repentance -- rowan, 17:15:37 06/15/01 Fri
I missed this post my first time around and I'm sorry I did, because
it's very thought-provoking.
The most chilling line in your post, Mal, is: "Are the evil
creatures more dedicated, more devoted to their cause than the
forces of good?" Yes, I'm afraid they are. And not just in
the Buffyverse, but in our world, too. "Eternal vigilance
is the price of liberty." What is evil, after all, but the
attempt of one to deny liberty to another: the liberty of life,
health, happiness, love, choice. If good is not to fall to evil,
all must be eternally vigilant. But it sometimes seems as if evil
brings more energy to the battle.
And speaking to the Law of Unintended Consequences (as I think
it was called below), I recall Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address:
"Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make
ware rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept
war rather than let it perish. And the war came."
Those four words (and the war came) are another chilling comment
on the nature of evil.
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[> [> Re: Repentance -- Malandanza, 21:08:33 06/15/01 Fri
"The most chilling line in your post, Mal, is: "Are
the evil creatures more dedicated, more devoted to their cause
than the forces of good?" Yes, I'm afraid they are. And not
just in the Buffyverse, but in our world, too. "Eternal vigilance
is the price of liberty." What is evil, after all, but the
attempt of one to deny liberty to another: the liberty of life,
health, happiness, love, choice. If good is not to fall to evil,
all must be eternally vigilant. But it sometimes seems as if evil
brings more energy to the battle."
I have been considering why evil seems to be more sincere in their
cause than does good. Consider (in the real world) where the fanatics
come from: generally they are an oppressed minority (religious
or ethnic) like the Basques in Spain or the Catholics in Northern
Ireland. They have been denied any legitimate means of redressing
their grievances and their response is fanaticism. It seem that
the more a group is persecuted, the stronger it becomes (early
Christians are a prime example -- willingly suffering any manner
of torture -- compared with modern Christians who have difficulty
making it to church more than twice a year). The apocalyptic cults
and suicide bombers are not drawn from mainstream America.
We all know that in the Buffyverse the demons were the original
inhabitants and were driven out to make room for man. The evil
that remains is an oppressed minority in a basically good world.
Evil in any form is destroyed when it becomes too prominant. Long
persecution breeds fanaticism. Good, on the other hand, has become
complacent. Centuries of dominance has led to people who enjoy
the status quo and would rather not be bothered by those lunatics
who wish to change things -- which gives the fanatics an edge.
Like Ford Prefect said in "Life, the Universe and Everything,"
"people like you and me, Slartibartfast, and Arthur -- particularly
and especially Arthur -- are just dilettantes, eccentrics, and
layabouts, if you like...We're not obsessed by anything, you see...And
that's the deciding factor. We can't win against obsession. They
care, we don't. They win."
(Douglas Adams is my favorite philosopher)
So what about the monks and the KoB? There has been a debate over
whether they are local fanatics or whether they came from Glory's
dimension. I have favored the former theory based on the word
"Byzantium." I can accept the existence of other dimensions
with humans who speak perfect English, but when you ask me to
believe that they also had a "Byzantium," my credulity
becomes strained. I suggest an alternative -- that the knights
and monks were originally from the Buffyverse, but some time during
the 12th or 13th century were dragged into Glory's dimension.
Once there, they would have been the oppressed minority and their
fanaticism would have blossomed and grown under an evil sun.
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[> [> [> But... -- Solitude1056, 14:38:23 06/16/01 Sat
"So what about the monks and the KoB? There has been a debate
over whether they are local fanatics or whether they came from
Glory's dimension. I have favored the former theory based on the
word "Byzantium." I can accept the existence of other
dimensions with humans who speak perfect English, but when you
ask me to believe that they also had a "Byzantium,"
my credulity becomes strained. I suggest an alternative -- that
the knights and monks were originally from the Buffyverse, but
some time during the 12th or 13th century were dragged into Glory's
dimension. Once there, they would have been the oppressed minority
and their fanaticism would have blossomed and grown under an evil
sun."
Ok... but then how did they get back here without a Key of their
own? And if they could use some other Portal, why couldn't Glory?
What's the point of the Key, then?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Good points... -- Malandanza, 17:05:01
06/16/01 Sat
"Ok... but then how did they get back here without a Key
of their own? And if they could use some other Portal, why couldn't
Glory? What's the point of the Key, then?"
The KoB seemed to have a history with Glory beyond the few years
that Glory had been manifesting herself. She was "the beast"
-- they had legends and prophecies about her. If the first time
they heard about Glory was when she was banished (or perhaps much
later, when Ben/Glory had become physically mature), where does
this antagonism come from?
There is an inconsistency -- on AtS, gateways are easy -- say
a few magic words and one opens up for you. Not just to Pylea,
W&H have opened a few gates in their time. On BtVS, there is only
one Key. Perhaps Glory's banishment was special -- and she was
barred from the usual methods of interdimensional travel. Maybe
the Key was the only way home for Glory.
Anyway, I have less difficulty believing that the Knights gated
to Sunnydale than that they raised the funds to transport an army
(by conventional means) from the Middle East to Sunnydale. Teleportation?
We saw how much a small teleport spell drained Willow -- now multiply
the distance and number of people to be transported by several
orders of magnitude.
I have felt that Dawn (as the Key) was tied to Glory -- with Glory
dead, there is nothing left to unlock.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Good points... -- rowan, 17:34:12
06/16/01 Sat
"I have felt that Dawn (as the Key) was tied to Glory --
with Glory dead, there is nothing left to unlock."
Hmmm. I've been thinking the opposite. I think because of two
things. First, the Key is almost as old as the beast & is of unknown
origin (per Gregor). Second, the monks believed the Key might
be turned to good purpose. I felt there was some unexplored territory
there regarding Dawn's origins. Somewhere in my head, I was busy
spinning this web that has Dawn theoretically in peril as long
as she lives, in the event that some other Big Baddie might attempt
to use her as well. My web also includes Dawn learning to harness
her powers in a way that might be for good (like closing the Hellmouth).
On another note, if Dawn was made from Buffy (and therefore as
a result, Buffy's sacrifice could close the portal), then Dawn
potentially shares Slayer qualities. Someone in a post above commented
on whether Dawn will be called as a Slayer. I'm not sure that
she even needs to be called. Joss has been pretty clear that the
Slayer line now goes through Faith (from Kendra). But Dawn might
have these abilities without the call, since she is from Buffy.
Also, she is at the age where these abilities may manifest themselves.
So Dawn becomes an unofficial Slayer and Spike her unofficial
Watcher (fulfilling the dream in Restless?). This gives both characters
somewhere to go that isn't totally Buffy-dependent. Heh, heh,
heh...I probably need to stop taking that prescription allergy
medication.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Allergy medication......LOL.........:):)
-- Rufus, 20:36:25 06/16/01 Sat
I do think that the Knights are our own homegrown zealots. They
probobly come from a remote part the country of their origin.
rowan....I'd love to see what favortie character would be on your
t'shirt.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike, of course! (if
my poor heart could stand it) -- rowan, 10:47:26 06/17/01 Sun
What can I say? I just can't resist the temptation of these bad
boys trying to go good. Plus, I honestly like the way Spike treats
Buffy. He treats her like an adult who is capable of handling
the truth about things. That is a big point in his favor. Overly
protective males put me off.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spike, of
course! (if my poor heart could stand it) -- Rufus, 19:37:37 06/17/01
Sun
See, we'd never argue you, would get along with the bad boy, and
I have a weakness for nice guys. Of course they have to be good.
Is innocence a good thing? --
Helen, 23:30:23 06/10/01 Sun
For the longest time there has been those who have tried to call
Dawn "innocent". This has bothered me for I guess that
I equate "innocence" with naïve, and I have found
Dawn anything but naïve. She in fact knows more than Buffy
ever did at her age about Vampires, magic, and the other dark
things that other people pretend don't exist.
Perhaps, this is a debate in semantics here, but would we even
want Dawn to be innocent? Buffy seemed to at least try to keep
her from knowing things (like magic) and the Scooby gang respected
her wishes (like when they made up the story about the buffy-bot).
Is "innocence" in the sense of not knowing about evil
a good thing? Why is it a quality we so admire when it merely
means that one hasn't experienced life? As Dawn grows (she is
going on 15 now) will she have to struggle against friends determined
to keep her "innocent", (not realizing of course that
she wasn't that "innocent' to begin with).
I understand people calling Dawn innocent when they mean it in
the sense of being caught up in a situation not her fault. But
I am talking about the other kind of "innocence". I
don't see that as such a good quality, and certainly doesn't describe
hellmouth wise Dawn. In fact it belittles her.
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[> I think there's a difference between "an innocent"
and "innocent" -- Wiccagrrl, 00:10:00 06/11/01 Mon
In the Buffyverse, they've always referred to regular people,
especially those who get caught in the crossfire, as innocents
or an innocent. It's almost like saying they're civilians. They
aren't asking for this fight, they've done nothing to bring what
is happenning upon themselves and are basically good people. Anyway,
that's how I've always understood them to use the term.
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[> Innocent until your actions prove you are not...... -- Rufus,
02:02:49 06/11/01 Mon
Dawn is an innocent in that she had no control over what happened
to her. The monks made her human she was an innocent because of
the circumstances of her creation. Ben was an innocent when he
was created to contain the beast(Glory). Dawn kept her innocence
because she never acted in a way that made her a part of Glorys
plan. Ben changed sides he was no longer an innocent he was a
participant. It's interesting to see how these two people came
to the actions they have done. Ben sold out humanity so he could
live. Dawn was willing to die what she had come to value. Both
parties knew what evil was, understood their options one chose
to become evil, the other was willing to sacrifice their life
to prevent evil.
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[> [> Re: Innocent until your actions prove you are not......
-- Virgill Reality, 07:25:17 06/11/01 Mon
***It's interesting to see how these two people came to the actions
they have done. Ben sold out humanity so he could live. Dawn was
willing to die what she had come to value. Both parties knew what
evil was, understood their options one chose to become evil, the
other was willing to sacrifice their life to prevent evil.***
I don't know about everyone else, but I had a really big problem
with the way Ben's character arc was played out. I mean, all through
the series this guy has been portrayed as a good doctor, someone
who is always willing to help people and refuses at any provocation
to sell out to the dark side for his own sake. He could have done
so at any point, and on several occasions during S6 he did all
that he could to protect Dawn, to the extent that at one point
he tried to kill one of Glory's minions to stop her from finding
out. Ben was a good guy, everyone knew it, he was so hell-bent
on making sure Glory didn't achieve her selfish plan, and yet
when it came down to the crunch Ben sold himself out and made
the sacrifice of humanity for his own skin. Any idiot knows that's
not a twist, but a contradiction in terms.
Ben was anything but stupid, as well. He knew full well what Glory
planned to do, and that there was no way he would survive after
she made the transition back to hell.
I prefer to think that Ben was trying to buy some time, or lull
Glory into a false sense of security long enough for him or someone
else to make a counter-attack. To me, anything else just doesn't
make sense.
Virgill
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> why Ben became "less" innocent --
Manoon, 08:40:41 06/11/01 Mon
Just as Ben's morality seeped into Glory to stop her delivering
the killing blows to our beloved scoobies, then equally that could
be explained by bits of Glory's personality merging into Ben's
own.
Or even that once Glory had the key, Ben faced the reality of
what might happen (ie he would die), rather than the idealogy,
which is what he had faced all his life. Easier to be moral when
dealing with idealogy, less so when things become real. That's
just plain human nature.
I'd probably say the reason he changed is a mixture of the two?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less" innocent
-- Rosenberg, 09:34:00 06/11/01 Mon
I agree with Virgill, when Ben decided to turn Dawn over, the
first thing I thought was, "Oh, he has a plan of some sort".
However, it is also true that Glory's and Ben's personalities
where merging together, and so it does seem that even if Ben did
have a stalling scheme, his actions could still have been motivated
by selfishness stemming from Glory's personality. I'm not sure
if we ever really knew enough about Ben to be sure whether he
would abandon his morals if his life depended on it, though. Anyways,
in the case of Glory and Ben mixing together there, you can hardly
blame Ben for contracting some of Glory's traits. I never really
cared much for his character, but I thought it was a bit harsh
for Ben to be called evil if he was being affected by things he
couldn't control.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less"
innocent -- Rufus, 13:34:26 06/11/01 Mon
It is clear that the barrier between Glory and Ben was dissolving
and they were sharing personality traits. Ben may have based his
final choice upon the feelings he shared with Glory but it was
clear that self-preservation was his chief motivation as he believed
that Glory would win. Buffy had a moment like that and recovered.
Ben couldn't get away from Glory so he had to live and die with
his choice. Once he participated in the preperation for Dawns
sacrifice he was doomed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less" innocent
-- Terry, 22:22:12 06/11/01 Mon
Ben wasn't evil.
He just wasn't good.
All too many of us would have made the same decision.
I honestly can't say what decision I would have made given the
situation. For I haven't been tested, and am afraid to find out
what I would decide if I was.
I hope I would be Buffy though, willing to sacrifice the whole
world for her sister. For the one.
Buffy was not like us. She was so full of love, that love radiated
out of her. Just being around her one got the sense of the devine.
She wasn't perfect. No human is. But she was certainly as close
as a human can get. She was, in the most noble sense of the word
a saint.
Ben, on the other hand, was just an ordinary person. Can't fault
him for his decision, even though that decision was wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less"
innocent -- Manoon, 01:59:49 06/12/01 Tue
he wasn't exactly ordinary though, was he. He had a hell god living
inside him. Can't really expect him to make ordinary, rational
decisions when having had to live with the enormity of that..
without realising it, even before the personalities started to
merge, i think ben on the whole (ie if he had been able to live
a normal life) would have been a person of pretty good moral standing,
but the very fact the glory lived inside him tainted him.
anyway, he's dead now :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less"
innocent -- Terry, 23:07:06 06/12/01 Tue
"i think ben on the whole (ie if he had been able to live
a normal life) would have been a person of pretty good moral standing,
but the very fact the glory lived inside him tainted him."
I don't know. Again he wasn't a bad man. But Giles said it:
"She isn't like US."
(I loved the look in Ben's face when Giles said that. He knew
that was the end.)
What decision would most otherwise morally upstanding people make
if faced with such a situation. Either it's you or a teenage girl.
Again, I hope I would be like Buffy, but I fear I might be like
Ben.
Ben might have been "good". A normal sense of "good".
But he was no Unicorn. Most people can't be that good.
There are really good people in the world, and then there are
really evil. But most of us are in between. Not that we aren't
capable of doing great good (or for that matter great evil) but
goodness doesn't exude from us, as it does some. Those types are
people are rare, perhaps understandably so, as if they weren't
so rare, they wouldn't be quite so special.
It is ashame though, that there aren't more people like that,
for they bring hope and happiness to those they come in contact
with by their mere presence. But fortunately really evil people
are rare as well.
For the rest of us, we just have to live with being ordinary.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: why Ben became "less"
innocent -- Halcyon, 01:05:24 06/13/01 Wed
Ben was not totally innocent, remember he did summon the Queller
demon to kill all the crazies in Listening To Fear and he almost
got Buffy, Dawn and Joyce killed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Is innocence a good thing? -- vulpes, 20:59:10 06/11/01
Mon
I think innocence is not experiences the effects of doing evil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Is innocence a good thing? -- Helen, 22:38:41
06/11/01 Mon
"think innocence is not experiences the effects of doing
evil."
Then Buffy would be innocent as well. For she has never done evil.
I guess what I was trying to get at in this discussion was the
"ideal" of innocence vs the need for one to experence
life unshielded as one grows up.
As parents we feel the need to protect our children from pain,
and that is a good thing to do. But at the same time growing up
is about experencing things like pain. I guess it's a balancing
act.
As we grow up we seem a yearning to rid ourselves of our "innocence"
as we attempt to explore the world around us. We want to think
"we can handle it", "I'm not a baby", "you
don't need to whisper around me", "I can take it".
But as soon as we lose this "innocence" we so wanted
to rid ourselves of, we want it back. We yearn for it to return.
But of course it's too late. "I wish I didn't know",
"I want to be a baby","I really can't handle it."
Dawn was never this ideal of "innocence" that Buffy
had of her. Buffy would have fought like anything to insure that
she didn't grow up. The scene that showed me that the most was
when she brought up something Dawn did when she was five. Will
her friends be the same way?
I see one of the greatest challenges for Dawn will be overcoming
her sister's friends who want her to "stay innocent"
as she struggles with trying to find her way in this world.
what comes next? -- Manoon, 07:56:16
06/11/01 Mon
I'm going to avoid the issue of when and how Buffy will return,
as I can't answer it concisely and don't really mind.. I'm content
to leave that for the moment..
..so what I was wondering instead, is what is to come in the following
season(s), based on the previous 5. (Can we assume there are two
seasons left based on SMG's contract?). I don't think I'm lateral
enough for that, I'll stick to season 6 for now - see, i know
my limitations!! :)
I was just wondering, who the main villain is going to be next
season. From the Master of series 1, to Dark Angel (pun intended!),
to the bad slayer and mayor of 3, number 4 Adam the Technodemon,
and lastly, series 5, the God.
What can follow on from that? A God isn't the ultimate?
People talk of Doc, but he was more or less a Glory lackey, so
I dont really see the potential there. He might be part of a greater
whole, but isn't big enough to be on his own (in my opinion).
I would be thrilled to see Willow consumed by dark magic, and
think the ensuing battles of former best friends is something
which COULD definitely follow on from Glory, but then I don't
see it taking up an entire 22 episode story-arc.. she wouldn't
be THE big bad, only big and bad beneath a bigger bad (oh no,
I'm playing word games again!). SO i see that happening, but more
as a secondary storyline.
Spike i feel will probably become bad.. something happen beyond
his control to restore his true nature. Again though, after the
recent season, I dont see that being able to maintain 22 episodes.
Possibly i base that on him not being my favourite character,
admittedly, but a simple vampire having faced off against a god,
no.
Dawn has possibility... the enormity of the power she holds could
be unleashed in some way with devastating effects? I don't know,
I dont see that either. Don't know what power she has, apart from
her fluids being able to open portals.. maybe we will find out,
but then that just is an extension of the recent season story,
which we kinda have had resolution on. i know there is more to
tell with this story, and think Dawn is the key to the end of
vampires and demons until the next slayer is called in however
many centuries the comic Fray states (haven't seen it yet).. so
I see Dawn playing a central part in next season, but not as big
bad
Buffy.. coming back different, darker.. again, a possibility but
I don't think the SMG loving public would be very happy with that!
If sustained over an entire season. No, the development with her
has to be profound and positive, i really feel that
do we have to HAVE one single big bad villain? i guess not? but
each season up until now has had one big villain, presiding more
or less over a series of smaller. my question then, is what is
going to come next? I don't see any of the current characters
being bearers of the apocalypse... so it is going to be someone
new?
I'm guessing that many of you will already have various opinions
of what is to come next. I'd like to hear some of them - because
I like to have an idea of what is going to happen, before i watch
it. Then you can look back to this posting and say "hey,
i TOLD you all so..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: what comes next? -- LadyStarlight, 09:16:44 06/11/01
Mon
Those are all really good points, but, (not to rely too much on
netnews) I did read somewhere on a fairly reliable web site that
the Buffy team wants to keep Spike's chip in for a while to explore
the obsession. They seem to have been leading up to this for a
while (didn't Dru say "You're covered in ashes. Your head
is full of her."?) I can't see them abandoning the story
line if it's been building for a while. Besides, I like Spike!
and I want to keep him around for a while.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: what comes next? -- Wisewoman, 09:48:20 06/11/01 Mon
"What can follow on from that? A God isn't the ultimate?"
In some cosmologies "a" god wouldn't be the ultimate.
There could be much more powerful gods, both good and evil. And
then there's the monotheistic, capital "g" God, who,
presumably, would not be playing the Big Bad. But we've had demons
galore, and they're not that tough. What about the big G God's
nemesis, the big D Devil? Y'know, Satan, Lucifer? Any chance that
Buffy will come up against him? If the Hellmouths lead to Hell,
who's running the place?
Just a thought ;o) Cleaning up Hell and putting a kink in Satan's
plans might logically lead to 2 or 3 hundred years of "peace
on earth."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: what comes next? -- Virgill Reality, 10:42:19
06/11/01 Mon
***What about the big G God's nemesis, the big D Devil? Y'know,
Satan, Lucifer? Any chance that Buffy will come up against him?
If the Hellmouths lead to Hell, who's running the place?***
I actually think a storyline involving satan the devil would be
closer to home in Angel than it would be in Buffy. The whole Wolfram
and Hart thing is the devil's army on earth if ever there was
one, and I feel Joss kept as guessing with episodes like I've
Got You Under My Skin in S1, but even more so with S2's Reprise:
-----------------------------------------------------------
FIRST WORSHIPPER Look, man, we just get paid to do the slaughtering
and say the prayer!
ANGEL What are you praying to?
SECOND WORSHIPPER We don't know!
ANGEL (eyes narrowing) How can you "not know?"
First Worshipper waves a hand at a nearby open prayer book.
FIRST WORSHIPPER The ritual, it's all in Latin! They said we should
just sort of, you know, sound it out!
ANGEL "They?"
FIRST WORSHIPPER Like you said... Wolfram and Hart.
--------------------------------------------------------- And
again:
LILAH The Review's in two days.
LINDSEY I'm aware of that.
LILAH (off the tense hustle bustle around them) Yeah, so is everyone
else. Look at them. Like they've had the fear of... well, "God"
would probably be the wrong word... ----------------------------------------------------------
Although this is only how I see it, I think that as Angel's series
progresses we'll get to know the full nature of W&H, Hell,
and the devil (the Chairman, as opposed to the Senior Partners?).
Virgill
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: what comes next? -- Halcyon, 01:25:16 06/13/01
Wed
We have seen a kind of pure evil figure remember, in Season 3-
Amends the First was described as being absolute evil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: what comes next? -- Andy, 10:37:51 06/11/01 Mon
> What can follow on from that? A God isn't the ultimate?
Well, I would designate her as "a god", as opposed to
"God" :) The two possibilities that immediately spring
to my mind are to get more personal (Glory and Adam were just
jerks that didn't have any intimate connection to Buffy, the way
Angel and Faith did), or to actually elevate Buffy herself, make
her stronger so that the threats will likewise have to be more
powerful to present a physical challenge. Or it could be a mixture
of the two approaches. Or there's another approach that I'm completely
overlooking.
> People talk of Doc, but he was more or less a Glory lackey,
so I dont really see the potential there. He might be part of
a greater whole, but isn't big enough to be on his own (in my
opinion).
He might work because he seemed to be intelligent, which is good.
I'd like to see him come back because Joel Grey is pretty cool
:)
> I would be thrilled to see Willow consumed by dark magic,
and think the ensuing battles of former best friends is something
which COULD definitely follow on from Glory, but then I don't
see it taking up an entire 22 episode story-arc.. she wouldn't
be THE big bad, only big and bad beneath a bigger bad (oh no,
I'm playing word games again!). SO i see that happening, but more
as a secondary storyline.
Willow would be a more personal threat, which would make it harder
for Buffy to beat her up. I've had suspicions that her increasing
powers are somehow related to an external force that is subtly
manipulating her. I just watched Becoming again this weekend,
and one line stands out: "You could open a door that you
won't be able to close", said in reference to Willow's attempt
to re-soul Angel. Seemed like nothing came of it at the time,
but maybe...
> Spike i feel will probably become bad.. something happen
beyond his control to restore his true nature. Again though, after
the recent season, I dont see that being able to maintain 22 episodes.
I think they're going to explore his chipped nature more.
> Dawn has possibility... the enormity of the power she holds
could be unleashed in some way with devastating effects? I don't
know, I dont see that either. Don't know what power she has, apart
from her fluids being able to open portals.. maybe we will find
out, but then that just is an extension of the recent season story,
which we kinda have had resolution on. i know there is more to
tell with this story, and think Dawn is the key to the end of
vampires and demons until the next slayer is called in however
many centuries the comic Fray states (haven't seen it yet).. so
I see Dawn playing a central part in next season, but not as big
bad
Yeah, I would think if anything they would hint more at Dawn's
potential for good, rather than her destructive potential.
> Buffy.. coming back different, darker.. again, a possibility
but I don't think the SMG loving public would be very happy with
that! If sustained over an entire season. No, the development
with her has to be profound and positive, i really feel that
True, but being bad for a little bit might constitute "growing
pains" after her rebirth. You know Gellar would love to play
a villainous role, at least for a little while :) But no...I don't
think this would really amount to anything more than an episode
or two.
> do we have to HAVE one single big bad villain? i guess not?
Smaller arcs would be a nice change of pace, definitely.
My money's on something related to Willow. Either Willow herself,
or something else that's using her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: what comes next? -- mundusmundi, 11:13:04 06/11/01
Mon
>>My money's on something related to Willow. Either Willow
herself, or something else that's using her.<<
There's that uberdemon, D'Whatshisface? He has ties to both Wil
and Anya, which would certainly make things more personal (I agree
w/ you the show needs to raise the stakes, erm, metaphorically
speaking.) True, he didn't seem too big evily when Willow turned
down his last offer, but then the Mayor was all smileyface too,
so who knows.
>> People talk of Doc, but he was more or less a Glory lackey,
so I dont really see the potential there. He might be part of
a greater whole, but isn't big enough to be on his own (in my
opinion).<<
Doc seems more of a freelance bad guy, scarier and more fun when
he's in the shadows. Less is more with Doc, I think. More might
be less effective.
Somebody else mentioned the devil. While it would be interesting
to explore what lurks deeper in the Hellmouth...as I think Ebert
may have said, Satan has always made a weak villain. He's most
effective when depicted in an abstract way, a la The Exorcist,
than anthropomorphized on screen. And about the only time that
ever happens is when it's played for laughs (George Burns, Liz
Hurley, etc.)
>> Buffy.. coming back different, darker.. again, a possibility
but I don't think the SMG loving public would be very happy with
that!<<
Actually, I think this will happen eventually, but they're saving
it for the final season, when there's nothing to lose. Could be
foreshadowed a bit this year, though.
>>(Glory and Adam were just jerks that didn't have any intimate
connection to Buffy, the way Angel and Faith did),<<
I thought they did an ok job making the Glory arc personal, thru
Dawn, but you're right that there was no deep connection with
Buffy like Angel/Faith, and that was lacking. Adam was a missed
opportunity. I remember thinking they were going to go "Bride
of Frankenstein" and have him try to make Buffy his "Eve"...which
may have been too weird, granted. But ithe show has always been
at its best when it has a kinky edge (which Angel, Faith, and
to a degree Spike supply).
What I'd really like to see for next year's Big Bad is something
fresh. Something different, yet also able to penetrate into the
Scoobies'(and viewers') psyches.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: what comes next? -- Andy, 14:08:28 06/11/01
Mon
> There's that uberdemon, D'Whatshisface? He has ties to both
Wil and Anya, which would certainly make things more personal
(I agree w/ you the show needs to raise the stakes, erm, metaphorically
speaking.) True, he didn't seem too big evily when Willow turned
down his last offer, but then the Mayor was all smileyface too,
so who knows.
D'Hoffryn? It could be interesting, although I think whatever
the big bad is, it'll probably be something that we haven't actually
seen before :)
> I thought they did an ok job making the Glory arc personal,
thru Dawn, but you're right that there was no deep connection
with Buffy like Angel/Faith, and that was lacking.
Yeah, it's just that with Angel and Faith, Buffy knew these people,
and had to have been confused as to how to deal with them since
they seemed more like good people gone tragically wrong, instead
of being rotten to the core. With Glory, the goal was never in
doubt: kick her ass :)
> What I'd really like to see for next year's Big Bad is something
fresh. Something different, yet also able to penetrate into the
Scoobies'(and viewers') psyches.
Exactly. The writers have been saying that the main theme next
year is "Oh, grow up". However, I can't really figure
out what that might mean insofar as Big Bads are concerned...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: what comes next? -- mundusmundi, 15:22:35
06/11/01 Mon
>>The writers have been saying that the main theme next
year is "Oh, grow up". However, I can't really figure
out what that might mean insofar as Big Bads are concerned...<<
Much as I'd hate to see the obvious, Hank Summers seems a likely
candidate. They've been foreshadowing him as they foreshadowed
the mayor in B2, with his appearance in Buffy's "memory"
in WOTW pretty much a red flag. He probably wouldn't be the Big-Big
Bad, but maybe a morally conflicted link between Buffy, Dawn and
the evil they'll be facing. Maybe his new mistress or something.
(Again, rather obvious, but it would bring the fight directly
inside the Summers household. And, instead of the Evil Father/Stepmother
stereotypes, why not make 'em charming, in order to divide Buffy
and Dawn, forcing them to choose sides.)
"Oh, grow up"....Hmmmm. What would the potential threat
be there, I wonder? Not wanting to grow up, or growing up before
you're ready? Searchin' for metaphors! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: what comes next? -- cjc36, 20:27:51
06/11/01 Mon
Someone in a writer's book/article I read once said you put your
character up a tree, then throw rocks at them.
ALL of the possibilities listed in this tread could happen. 22
episodes is big enough.
But my personal feelings about Big Bads: Personal is Better! Willow
as a BB would rock Buffy's world like nothing has since Angel
lost his soul.
Q: Would Willow become so obviously bad she would be estranged
from the Scoobies and have a lair/hideout like all the big bads?
Or would she work from the *inside* re: Spike in "The Yoko
Factor"? What would badWillow want? What would motivate her
arc (and thus the season)? Would good Willow be in there, just
blinded by the darkness?
I can see Doc being a part of this.
Oooo! Just remembered something for any Babylon 5er's here. When
Sheridan came back from the dead, Garabaldi, his most trusted
friend, betrayed him (okay, The Shadows mind-screwed him). But
the reasons for Garabaldi's mistrust was *because* of Sheridan's
return from the Beyond and the Messianic overtones of said return.
Garabaldi didn't go with any of that.
The fact Buffy's supposed to be dead, but isn't anymore, might
very well lead to the seeds of mistrust and hard-heartedness needed
to split B/W's friendship, thus setting the seasonal arc in motion
for a BB Willow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: what comes next? -- LadyStarlight,
06:09:17 06/12/01 Tue
Also, wouldn't the Scoobies become tired of dealing with the practical
aspects of a return? I mean, she's dead, complete with death certificate
&
headstone. How would they help her deal with "not existing",
ie, no driver's license, etc.? "Buffy, no that's not Buffy.
That's her identical cousin from Schenectady."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: what comes next? -- vampire hunter D, 13:19:52 06/11/01
Mon
Why should next year's big bad be someone we've already seen?
The Master, the Mayor, adam and Glory were all new when they first
appeared. So why should the next big bad be any different? In
fact, if the pattern set by the last three seasons hods, Big Bad
won't put in an appearence till several episodes into the season
(although his/her/its influence could be seen as early as episode
one).
As for Willow turning bad, I tyhink it is a possibility, but would
only work for about one or two episodes. However, it occurs to
me that we have already seen Willow turn to evil, in the form
of the VampWillow form the mirror,mirror world (Oh No, I'm making
Star Trek references again), so in a way, it's been done before.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> 'We have met the Enemy, and he is Us...' -- OnM, 20:30:45
06/11/01 Mon
*** "The writers have been saying that the main theme next
year is "Oh, grow up". However, I can't really figure
out what that might mean insofar as Big Bads are concerned..."
***
The seasonal story arcs usually introduce someone or something
that appears to be the 'Big Bad', then the real Bigger Badder
shows up later.
What would I like to see? I am assuming that Buffy will *not*
come back 'darker'. This just doesn't seem to follow from the
end of S5-- her sacrifice seems to merit moving on to the next
higher plane of spiritual evolution. Maybe she isn't up to Bodhisatva
(sp?) yet, but this should be a step, else why the 'rebirth'?
What would be the next, more difficult step of villiany for Buffy
to deal with-- after first moving from vamps to demons to human-demon
hybrids to gods to-- us? Humanity? Evil beings with souls?
Ben was a harbinger of this, if you think about it-- he was a
test case. Buffy let him live, because in her mind he was an innocent,
even though he was a vessal for the evil god Glory. She also didn't
know the 'full story', as we viewers did.
Would she have killed him if she knew he sold out humanity (and
Dawn) to save his own skin?
Will this be the kind of choices she is now expected to face in
S6?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: 'We have met the Enemy, and he is Us...' -- Brian,
03:33:19 06/12/01 Tue
Great concept, OnM. Didn't Buffy kill several of the Knights during
Spiral. So the seeds of her dealing with evil people are there.
Plus this fits in with Angel's battles with Wolfram & Hart.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Exactly... -- OnM, 08:50:49 06/13/01 Wed
As Angel already knows, dealing with the souled is a lot trickier
than just offing evil demon types. It just seems to me to be a
logical progression for Buffy and her role as Slayer. Also, there
are the hints of Willow getting darker due to her increasing usage
of powerful witchcraft. This would be a useful method for making
the dealings more personal-- Willow begins to stand in for the
rest of humanity and their darker impulses, just as Lindsey on
A:tS does/did. After seeing this season's Angel in it's entirity,
I have come to wonder if Lindsey started out as an evil person,
or did he just take one little step at a time and get progressively
sucked in? Power corrupts, as we know all too well. It seems unthinkable
that Willow could go that far, but... ?
How about our own Fanfic site?
-- Liquidram, 15:06:31 06/11/01 Mon
I own a web development firm in Silicon Valley and have my own
servers, etc., plus I am a designer.
My idea is to have a fanfic site for our exclusive use at this
point. I also strongly suggest password-protecting any NC-17 fic
to protect the under-18'ers out there. Being a mom, that is important
to me.
I think liability-wise, we would be okay as long as we posted
disclaimers and copyright notices.
We could have menus set up for the various arcs (B/A, B/S, Z/A,
etc.)
This site would also be moderated by 2 or more of our board so
that quality fic was posted vs a vast majority of the junk out
there.
Also, because of the quality-control I insist on from my company,
the site would be one of the classiest out there design-wise.
Anyone interested? You can respond on the board here for general
discussion, or email me directly if you would prefer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> What a fan-tastic idea! -- Wisewoman, 16:11:54 06/11/01
Mon
Given the quality of the writing of the people on this board,
that's one fanfic site I'd *definitely* read.
I only wish I could offer to write some myself, but, alas, my
talent does not seem to extend to fiction.
If there's any other way I can help to get this site off the ground,
just let me know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- Vickie, 17:35:16 06/11/01
Mon
Yes, please!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- LadyStarlight, 17:42:30
06/11/01 Mon
Having talked about this already with LiquidRam, perhaps I'm biased.
I'd like to see this, as perhaps then I could upload the fanfics
that I've written (2 so far). There's a lot of s**t out there
(I've trolled through at least 150-200 pages, not including checking
out fanfiction.net regularily) and this board could probably put
out top-quality fics with one hand tied behind it's back.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site?--OOPS -- LadyStarlight,
18:49:39 06/11/01 Mon
ahem, the sentence SHOULD have read "then perhaps I could
post my own fics, as I've tried to post them to fanfiction.net
without success"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> That's a very generous offer - I would certainly be
interested in reading... -- OnM, 20:43:43 06/11/01 Mon
..some good, thought-provoking specs and alternate-universe BtVS
concepts. Have you contacted Masq yet? She certainly should be
one of the moderators.
The fics could be humorous or dramatic (just like the show), but
what I look for is for there to be some additional level or levels
of thought going on, just like any other exceptional story.
'All Things Philofictional on Buffy the Vampire Slayer' ?
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Darlin, the way you butter bread, you should
be writing fan fic yourself...:):):) -- Rufus, 21:08:55 06/11/01
Mon
It would be another way to keep you busy over the rerun hell of
summer. And I'd like to see what you'd come up with.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Kinda like that electronic traffic sign
at the end of 'L.A. Story'? -- OnM, 21:30:22 06/11/01 Mon
Wasn't that one of the great movie parting shots of all time?
;)
I have been writing bits and pieces of Buffyfic in my head for
several years now. Sometimes, as you have certainly noticed, it
spills out in my posts.
Problem is, I'm my own worst critic. I've grown up reading the
best literary SF works out there, and so I inevitably hold myself
up to those standards. Naturally, I rarely get close! I have to
settle for a short moment or so. It's gettin' those moments all
strung together, now that's the tricky part.
(~sigh~)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- Aquitaine, 20:44:36
06/11/01 Mon
Could be very interesting. There *is* alot of **** to wade through
out there. Question is, wouldn't the fics have to have philosophical
leanings or 'special'/inherent aesthetic value? And who would
feel up to the task of 'approving' and 'rejecting' fics that are
'lovingly' submitted. Trust me, this is a very tricky job; I do
it for the BAPS site.
I'd love to know what the other ATPoBtVS posters think about this
idea. Not everyone is fond of fanfic...
If this does pan out, I'd love to be involved at the editing level
or in some other non-technical capacity.
- Aquitaine/Larissa
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- OnM, 21:17:30
06/11/01 Mon
*** "Not everyone is fond of fanfic...
(because)
There *is* alot of **** to wade through out there." ***
You are asking and answering your own question, Aquitaine! ;)
How many people have posted at this board, something to the effect
of 'At last! Some intelligent people to discuss Buffy/Angel with!'
At the very minimum, this could be a great project for the summer
to help keep us all occupied.
How about a group of editors? That way, you could have a fic accepted
if a majority likes it. Would also even out any personal biases,
since people are often looking for different things in their fiction.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- Liquidram,
22:37:55 06/11/01 Mon
Alright then... sounds like we have some interest and I agree
that this can be a very fun summer project. I have alot of story
ideas, but no talent in actually writing them, but being a pretty
darn good designer (ahem)I can promise you it will look great.
Here are the chores I see in front of us:
1. The NAME! I will register the domain name as soon as we agree
on one... suggestions everybody?
2. Our team of editors. Since you all know each other better than
I do (yet), I will take your suggestions as to who the editorial
team should be. Lady Starlight has already sent in a couple of
very short and sweet stories that are a good start. Anyone else
who has stories they've been hiding, now is the time to forward
them to me and I will then distribute them out to our editorial
team. I suggest that in the extremely *rare* case that we find
a story that is not up to our impecable standards, that we offer
suggestions and allow the author to modify the story for another
go.
3. Anyone interested in submitting fan art or other images are
free to do so.
4. Is anyone interested in taking on the storyboard task? All
we need is a very skeletal outline of the different arcs we are
going to cover. I can take this job myself if no one else is interested.
That's all I can think of for right now.... keep those cards and
letters coming and we will get this site up as soon as possible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Someone has to say this & I guess
it's me -- Brian, 08:49:37 06/12/01 Tue
I've read lots of Buffy Fan Fiction, some good, some bad. Surprisingly,
most of what I read was good. The bad stuff I just ignored. The
good stuff I shared with friends. If anyone wants to write Fan
Fiction, that person should be allowed to post it, even if it
has problems with structure, grammar, whatever. To have editors
seems to me to imply an elitist nature.
When it comes to creative efforts, I'm against censorship in any
shape, for any reason. It's bad. It's wrong. It makes us weak
- as a person, as a group, as a nation. If we end up self-censoring
ourselves, it'e even worse.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Someone has to say this & I
guess it's me -- Aquitaine, 09:23:45 06/12/01 Tue
Brian, I agree with you on principle. I actually have never turned
down a fic for the site for which I am the editor. However, I
did and do end up having to spend *hours* editing, mostly for
punctuation, because... well because my name is associated with
the project.
I disagree with your statement that anyone who writes fic should
be allowed to post to a Web site. There's a great self-posting
site at www.fanfiction.net to meet those needs. In terms of a
site that would be officially(?) related to this board, I think
that all we need to do is clearly describe what we are looking
for in fics. Actually, the best way to get the best writers to
submit fic is to post some good fics up front as examples.
OTOH, we could have a more casual, experimental site where experienced
fanfic writers as well as novices could submit stuff. We could
initiate challenges, for example. Write a 1000 word fic that mentions
Sartre, cheese and the Bezoar. LOL.
One of the great things about ATPoBtVS is that it's smart without
being elitist. I think we can manage to carry that over onto any
fanfic site that is set up. (LOL - I do think we should get Masquerade's
opinion on all this first though)
- Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> With you 100% Aquitaine. --
Wisewoman, 10:43:55 06/12/01 Tue
And, umm, there's something I might be able to do as well, as
I often work as a copy editor and a proofreader on academic journals,
I would never attempt to actually edit fiction, but I'm a darn
good proof reader (despite what some of my OWN messages may look
like, lol) and I'd be happy and willing to do that.
Cheers, Wisewoman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Someone has to say this
& I guess it's me -- fresne, 10:45:54 06/12/01 Tue
"Write a 1000 word fic that mentions Sartre, cheese and the
Bezoar. LOL. "
The sad thing here is my brain almost immediately went, hmm...So,
Buffy comes into the room, makes a funny about being sick of Sartre
because of her French Literature class. Buffy is eating some cheddar,
'cause she loves cheese. Meanwhile Willow is reading up on using
Bezoars (in this instance a ball of hair in a woman's stomach)
for use in various alchemaic spells. Dialog about the high ick
factor involved ensues. Buffy and Willow vow to never chew on
their hair. Then I realized what I was doing.
So, yeah, an associated fiction site could be fun. Although admittedly
my only foray into fanfic has been the Buffy Pride and Prejudice
(for which Jane Austen and Joss Whedon deserve most of the writing
credit), so I'm not sure how much I could contribute. But I can
read. ;>
I'd have to agree that some editing is a good idea. Not concept
wise, because a person's story ideas should be their own, but
help in execution is always useful. Editing (in the book publisher
editor sense) can help a writer clarify ideas. Although, this
board does not lack for interesting and clear ideas. If I can
help out with the editing, (many editors, make light work, etc.)
let me know.
So, what are looking for in terms of fiction? Perhaps, a list
of fanfic trops to avoid (Mary Sue, etc.) And yeah, before we
go any further Masquerade's opinion would be, under the circumstances,
good.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> AToBtVS fan fic site -- Masquerade,
09:27:33 06/13/01 Wed
I'm all for a fan fic site associated with this board.
I'm not a fan-fic reader, but I think it's just because I'm such
a BtVS purist--it bugs me when people write things that interpret
the show and characters in ways that are radically different from
what the writers have established. I guess it's because I'm a
fiction writer myself. *My issues*
That said, I think that a fan fic/fan non-fic site should pay
some attention to editing for punctuation and spelling. I didn't
used to do this with the fan blurbs I put on my site, and then
it just started to bug me. A clear, well-thought out, well-argued
opinion can be so easily dismissed when the author spells like
a twelve-year old. Again, *my issues*, I used to be a college
professor!
However, the site should not be big on editing for content. I
think showing a wide range of differing interpretations through
fic gives people a chance to experience the Buffyverse from a
number of fresh (often contradictory) perspectives. (I know that
contradicts my *personal issues* as stated above, but I know when
my issues are *my issues*)
Um... one question. I'm assuming some of this fan fic will be
of an "adult" nature? Or at least relationshippy? I'd
just like to put in my .02 cents on advocating that relationships
of all kinds be fair game. Many people "eww" at Giles/Buffy
or Xander/Angel or what not, but they don't have to read the stuff
they might find offensive.
Masq
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What types of fic accepted
-- Liquidram, 14:30:09 06/13/01 Wed
"Um... one question. I'm assuming some of this fan fic will
be of an "adult" nature? Or at least relationshippy?
I'd just like to put in my .02 cents on advocating that relationships
of all kinds be fair game. Many people "eww" at Giles/Buffy
or Xander/Angel or what not, but they don't have to read the stuff
they might find offensive."
I personally do not like the slash or super graphic fic, but hey,
different strokes for different folks (plus, who didn't think
that the "almost kiss" between Brad Pitt and Antonio
Banderas in IWTV was one of the hottest screen moments of all
time??)
We can accept whatever the board sees fit, and as previously mentioned,
there will be some password structure for the under-18 bunch (based
mainly on trust, I know)if we can logistically work it out. I
can technically do it... putting it into action may be less easy
in practice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: ATPoBtVS fan fic
site -- Malandanza, 09:30:57 06/16/01 Sat
"However, the site should not be big on editing for content.
I think showing a wide range of differing interpretations through
fic gives people a chance to experience the Buffyverse from a
number of fresh (often contradictory) perspectives. (I know that
contradicts my *personal issues* as stated above, but I know when
my issues are *my issues*)"
I agree with Aquitaine that some editing is a must. Not necessarily
editing for grammar and spelling (the most egregious examples
of bad grammar and spelling can be cleaned up by running grammar-check
and spell-check) -- particularly since most fanfic is written
in dialogue so substandard English is realistic (except when Giles
is talking, of course:). Editing for content and style might sound
elitist, but for a website associated with ATPoBtVS, I don't think
setting minimal standards is inappropriate. It is Natural enough
for people to have their feelings hurt by rejection, but even
professional writers often have their works rejected the first
few times they send it to a publisher -- this does not mean that
their work is garbage, or that the editor is a philistine incapable
of appreciating the work's true aesthetic value -- rather, that
the work could be improved. Perhaps a pool of Beta-readers could
be created and Beta-reading established as a prerequisite to posting
-- or a "works in progress" page might be set up for
general comment on unfinished (or unpolished) fiction.
"Um... one question. I'm assuming some of this fan fic will
be of an "adult" nature? Or at least relationshippy?
I'd just like to put in my .02 cents on advocating that relationships
of all kinds be fair game. Many people "eww" at Giles/Buffy
or Xander/Angel or what not, but they don't have to read the stuff
they might find offensive."
Will their be some limitation? Like Dawn/Spike (eww)? If not,
I'd like to see fairly comprehensive warnings with each piece
of fiction (perhaps a Decameron style preview).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Someone has to say this & I
guess it's me -- LadyStarlight, 12:04:36 06/12/01 Tue
So if I wrote a novel with an over-done concept, spelling and
grammar errors all through it, submitted it to publishers & they
chose not to publish it without editing, that's elitist? I know
a website is not a publishing house but what's wrong with having
standards? I've read stories where a little bit of editing would
have helped the story a lot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Someone has to say this & I
guess it's me -- OnM, 07:54:14 06/13/01 Wed
Brian, it might seem like we're all jumping on you here, but such
isn't the case. There is a great difference between editing and
censorship. When you are an established and respected writer,
you may have the clout to go to a publisher and demand that your
work be printed as is, word for word, etc. But even some of the
very best writers out there will admit that having input from
another can be helpful. We all tend to see things from our own
persepective, and sometimes that gets too single-minded.
This also doesn't mean that you have to come to doubt yourself,
just that you need to gain some insights from the experience of
others. This is a growth process. Of course, I am assuming that
the editing involved is being done by experienced persons, who
have a lot of practice in reading both fiction and non-fictions
in a wide variety of genres.
The net, in particular, has such a wide variety of sites that
if you want to 'publish' a story, you can get it done, and someone
will read it. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in writing
a story if people whose opinions I respect think I'm not doing
an adequate job, or missing the point, or whatever. After all,
who am I writing for? Joss and Co. make their creations for *us*.
If there is no audience, there is no play. (If a tree falls in
the forest, and no one hears it, there is still going to be an
environmental impact statement, right? ;)
Also, item last-- as others have already mentioned, if there is
to be any association with this site, which I would very much
like there to be, we need to hear Masquerade's thoughts on this
idea.
BTW, where is that Masq'd lady, anyway? She's been awfully quiet
so far. Some vacation-time jet lag, perhaps?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> matchmaking -- Manoon, 08:53:05
06/13/01 Wed
Sol's been unnervingly quiet too... maybe they've gone away together!!!
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, yeah, what's going
on here? -- OnM, 09:32:35 06/13/01 Wed
Sol! Where are you? Come back to us!!
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm here, see directly above...
-- Masq'd lady, 13:15:17 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My probably stupid suggestion -- Dedalus, 12:28:53 06/12/01
Tue
Okay, this is just a thought, so no fruit of any kind is to be
hurled in my general direction ...
I'm not THAT huge on fanfiction. For one thing, I read so much,
I rarely get the time. For another, some of it isn't very good,
and pales next to the show. For another, I have never had much
interest in writing it. I prefer my own stuff, and that keeps
me occupied. And plus with Buffy, I have doubts I am talented
enough to pull it off.
However, the Sunnydale Slayers has got some very good stuff and
talented writers. I guess because they keep it exclusive to a
certain degree.
Anyway ... since I am one of the myriad posters to come on here
and trip over myself raving about how brilliant everyone is ...
what about having, maybe a part or a section that is devoted to
... well, nonfiction?
I just got done reading some of Age's interpretations of season
five, and good god ... I know this site already has some philosophical
musings, but how about a part on this proposed site where we can
submit professionally styled and organized essays on Buffy? It
would be mind-blowing to see what some of you could come up with.
Alas, my motives aren't entirely selfless. As I've commented before,
I do write for some sites myself, usually something sci-fi related.
But they often don't take Buffy stuff because it's not really
scifish. I know we have got some professional writers on here,
and I guess I can claim that, because fresh out of college last
year I was writing and being paid for it, and actually got to
put down "freelance writer" on my income tax forms.
Yes, it was quite a thrill. Of course, that was before the internet
recession, and now I'm broke and will either have to get a "real
job" (shudder) or go back to graduate school. Anyway, I have
done a really nifty article on symbolism in The Gift, and would
like a place to send it.
And it would be really cool if we could figure out how to get
paid for our efforts ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> How could you call this eloquent post stupid? -- Liquidram,
14:44:00 06/12/01 Tue
Good points. It had already occured to me that there should be
a section for the non-fiction essays that some members of this
board are so excellent at. We could add a feedback link to the
authors or post threads on the board to discuss these essays.
I also believe that any editing done would have to meet with the
author of an original piece before it was posted. As far as a
story not being accepted, I think we will know those when we see
them, and it will not even be a question. Since the plan is to
keep the site exclusive to this board at this point, there will
not be alot of outside influence unless we decide to allow it.
Getting paid? I own a business, therefore do not understand the
concept of actually getting paid.... hehe
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: How could you call this eloquent post stupid?
-- Dedalus, 15:19:12 06/12/01 Tue
Cool.
I agree on the editing thing.
And keeping it exclusive would probably be a logistical necessity.
So are we going to have like a title or something?
And yes, getting paid is indeed a pipe dream.
:-(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Your very much extremely NOT stupid suggestion
-- OnM, 08:02:51 06/13/01 Wed
Oh, definitely this should be a part of the site. I've always
hoped that Masq has been archiving some of the very best philosophical-oriented
posts since her site went up, for sure there should be someplace
to make them available to all who are interested in reading them.
Yes, one can peruse the archives here, but that's very time-consuming
and you don't really have a very good index to do searches with.
If this would come together, I would be quite willing to do some
of that digging through the dusty shelves and see if I can rescue
some truly great stuff for re-posting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Parabola -- Solitude1056, 18:43:15 06/14/01 Thu
I wonder if Parabola ever does pop-culture philosophy - I know
they've done just about everything else. We could practically
take over the magazine with one big swamping of philosophically
related articles about the Hero myth, ethical issues as reflected
in pop-culture retellings, etc.
Ok, so I dream... :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: What's Parabola? Clue me, please! -- OnM,
21:40:47 06/14/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: What's Parabola? Clue me, please!
-- Solitude1056, 18:16:48 06/15/01 Fri
I'm stunned, man. If you're reading anything, I would've guessed
Parabola would be at the top of your list. It's a fascinating
& intelligentlly edited quarterly of collected essays on philosophical,
mythical, mythological, folklore, topics - each quarter usually
has a theme of some sort. You can find it at the magazine section
of any good bookstore, or failing that, at Borders or Barnes & Noble.
(I think Parabola also has a webpage, but I don't know the URL.)
It's been around for years now, and it's well worth the effort
of finding it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> I don't get out much! Thanks, it
sounds interesting, I'll check it out. -- OnM, 19:11:33 06/15/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> I looked over your shoulder
to get that bookmark as well...... -- Rufus, 15:15:37 06/16/01
Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Name Game -- Dedalus, 16:50:49 06/12/01 Tue
Okay, I'll open a side post down here so we can commence with
the naming process.
It would be cool if it could be something that reflects both the
show and our own eccentric crowd.
The only thing I can come up with is "The Existential Scoobies."
Sigh. I'm sure we can do better than that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Better??!! I'd love to be an "Existential Scoobie!"
-- Wisewoman, 17:38:01 06/12/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Name Game -- OnM, 08:27:15 06/13/01 Wed
Some ideas:
'The Masq'd Philosophers Guild'
Always liked the word 'guild', dunno why. Maybe a 'Dune' thing
again, they had a lotta guilds. Some of them involved spice and
bending space. We certainly do our share of space-bending, do
we not? ;)
'MetaPhilosophies of the Buffyverse'
I like the 'meta' word too. This might be a little too stuffy,
though. Maybe 'Buffyverse MetaPhilosophy Guild'? Humm, still kinda
stuffy. Giles would like it, though...;)
'ThinksTooMuch.org'
Well, we do! ;)
'Tales of Brave Ulysses'
Not obvious, and maybe there's a copyright issue as to the song.
Not to mention the gender issue, but maybe that's not the point.
Hey, just throwin' 'em out here...
'The Masq'd Avengers of Buffydom'
I know, used this one before, but I like it, what can I say. Has
that slight (OK, more than slight) irreverent touch that the series
has. This might make it non-obvious choice for a literary site,
but think about it-- just what do we do here? Why, we collectively
offer actual proof that BtVS is not just some silly show for kids,
but work of serious social/literary merit. If that ain't 'avenging',
I don't know what is! (Well, Diana Rigg knows, but she isn't here
for me to ask-- (~sighs~)).
'Into The Woods'
Relates to thinking too much, I think...
Well, all for now. I'll keep at it. Looking forward to what the
rest of you come up with. If anyone sees what they think is the
absolute, perfect name, just go oooo! oooo!
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> I kind of like the self-deprecating humor of
"We have too many thoughts!" -- Masq, 13:18:20 06/13/01
Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> How about "Fictionary Corner"? -- Leah,
08:44:32 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? - editing -- purplegrrl,
10:35:12 06/13/01 Wed
I like the idea of a fanfiction attachment to this site.
I'd like to offer my services as an editor - at least on a part-time
basis. [Sorry, I really like you all, but I need to have my own
life, too! ;-) ] I am a technical writer/editor in real life,
so I am fairly qualified to attempt this (although at the moment
I am, like Aquitaine, "employment-challenged" (a very
recent development)).
Hopefully, any of us who edit won't "censor" but will
make helpful suggestions to the author. As a fiction and nonfiction
writer, I know it is sometimes difficult to accept suggestions/criticism
about your own work. Editors would need to make suggestions that
improve the story, not suggest their own bias. Authors would need
to remember that the editors' suggestions are just that, suggestions,
and are meant to improve the piece of fiction.
This sounds like fun! I look forward to reading fanfic from some
of my favorite posters.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- Nina, 12:07:56
06/13/01 Wed
I love the idea of a fanfiction site too! I am too much impressed
by the Buffyverse to try to write anything myself. But if I decide
to do it, it will be in script form (what can I tell you, that's
how I think, in scenes and acts! I hope it wouldn't bother too
many of you). With all those wonderful people who are ready to
help with editing, I might try to come up with something (big
maybe!).
So how many authors would we have so far?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? -- Dedalus,
13:00:50 06/13/01 Wed
Hmm, Nina. Script form. I hadn't thought about that. That would
be an interesting experiment. I have copies of the two script
books, and Hush, Restless, and The Gift printed off the Buffy
script place. I don't know if I would be daring enough to try
it, but coming up with mock episodes would be cool.
As for Editing, guys, it is not censorship. I abhor censorship
like most people here, but, after working with two editors in
the past year, they can be a tremendous asset. Especially those
of us who suffer from Shelley-syndrome - we tend to go on until
we're stopped. Editing can give you a lot of perspective you might
have previously lacked.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: How about our own Fanfic site? --
Nina, 14:57:00 06/13/01 Wed
Script form is often disliked by a lot of fans. I even read somewhere
that it was easy and that it was for people who can't write! :)
Gee, they never tried to write a real script for sure!!! :) The
problem I have when I start a script is that I am so perfectionist
that I will count the words, read the scenes, make sure everything
fits into a 40 to 43 minutes episode. But building the emotional
arc of an episode is very hard. Know where you are at every moment.
How the character feels, even when you don't actually see that
emotion. Once you try to write a script you really appreciate
the work you see on your screen. It's damn hard, and the writer
at BtVS are all very talented to come with something in so little
time. I'm always so impressed! :) ( I am but a pale reflection
of their talent when I try to write something!)
Dedalus, I really encourage you to try! It's so much fun! A parody
would be wonderful too!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The Pulse? -- Little One, 12:02:40 06/13/01 Wed
I know I'm new to this board, but thought I would chime in with
my opinion that a fanfic addition would be a fantastic idea. I
don't usually read fanfic simply because I don't have the time
nor energy to wade through the sheer multitude of sites devoted
to Buffy fanfic. However, I would not only eagerly read fanfic
associated with this site, but I would also, being a writer myself,
be tempted to contribute to it. I also feel, judging by the quality
of postings, that fanfic produced by members of this board would
be of an extremely high caliber, thought-provoking and entertaining.
I look forward to reading it.
Now on to the editor issue. As a journalist, I both welcome and
loathe the touch of an editor. The editor is basically a mechanic
whose mere tune-up can have a Jag purring or shrieking alike.
If done correctly, the result is noticed only by absence of noticeable
complaints about the essay. However, if it is not handled with
a light touch, tweaking and toning, the result can be horrendous.
In my opinion, it is the quality of editorship that determines
whether the concept is a helpful or hurtful idea. If allowed absolute
power to paint one's masterpiece with broad sweeping strokes,
producing a work that is completely unfamiliar to the artist,
the editor is repugnant. However, if done correctly with sensitivity,
it is a godsend. With that said, I want to add that I have come
to trust the abilities of this board's members both in your abilities
and in your respect for the thoughts of opinions of others. I'm
certain that the quality of editors from this board will be of
the same high caliber that I've come to expect from the postings.
In short, I'd be honoured to be an editor, a writer and a reader
of a fanfic site associated with this board.
I would also like to humbly submit a suggestion for the name.
How about The Pulse? It reflects both the vampiric element and
that we, the fans, are the lifeblood of the show. They couldn't
do it without us tuning in every week. It's all about the blood,
afterall...as Spike would say. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Pulse? -- Dedalus, 13:03:50 06/13/01 Wed
Well said about editors.
And I like The Pulse idea. Maybe not as good as The Existential
Scoobies, but it's still nifty. :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Okay now, is there anybody on this board who is *not* a
writer or an editor??!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:27:50 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Okay now, is there anybody on this board who is
*not* a writer or an editor??!! ;o) -- Little One, 14:21:51 06/13/01
Wed
That raises an interesting topic, Wisewoman. Why does Buffy attract
such literary-inclined people? Or is it just this board which
gathers us together? I could be wrong, and this isn't a dig against
other fan groups, but I bet Dawson's Creek fans are not as profoundly
hooked on phonics as we seem to be!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Uhh, I'm not. I just fake it. Has anyone noticed?
No, don't tell me... ;) -- OnM, 15:19:57 06/13/01 Wed
*** "and this isn't a dig against other fan groups, but I
bet Dawson's Creek fans are not as profoundly hooked on phonics
as we seem to be!" ***
No, it's Buffy, or more accurately the entire BtVS gestalt. The
classic themes, the superb writing, the marvelous ensemble acting
work. The whole is so much greater than the sum of all the parts.
Give you an example, and please, I'm not trying to be negative,
I watch *ST:Voyager* myself. As noted in a post above, Jeri Ryan
(Seven of Nine) won a Saturn Award for best supporting actress,
beating out, among others, Juliet Landau (Drusilla) for her work
on Buffy/Angel.
Do I think Landau is the better overall actress? That's hard to
say, because I haven't seen enough of her overall work, the same
with Jeri Ryan. What I will say, again JMHO, is that *Jeri Ryan
saved ST:Voyager from cancellation*. Her portrayal of the 'Seven'
character is so perfect, and involving, that it overcomes the
show's weakest point-- it's mediocre writing. So I certainly don't
begrudge her this or any other recognition.
Now, can you imagine her show if they had the caliber of writing
that Buffy has? I suspect I might be hanging out on those discussion
boards also, be that the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Damn it, I AM a Dawson's Creek fan!
:-) j/k -- Dedalus, 15:54:54 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> But you fake it as well as Meg Ryan in
"When Harry Met Sally"... ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:54:46
06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Interesting question, Little One... -- Wisewoman,
17:43:06 06/13/01 Wed
My best guess is that, by-and-large, the *mature* (lol) people
who are watching BtVS are doing so because of the quality of the
writing, as opposed to simply seeking mind-numbing entertainment.
Now, anyone who watches anything for the quality of the writing
is bound to be literary-minded.
I guess there are a lot of Buffy fans who watch solely because
they have a crush on Buffy, or think Willow or Xander are hot,
etc, etc. but those fans probably aren't going to be intrigued
by a link to something called All Things Philosophical on Buffy
the Vampire Slayer. And if they do end up here, they're going
to realize that we're not speaking the same language. I'm struggling
not to sound elitist here, all I mean is that people's tastes
and interests differ, and there are so many internet sites devoted
to Buffy you can easily pick and choose the "flavour"
that most appeals to you. Those of us here have obviously been
attracted by Masquerade's amazing philosophical take on things,
and are willing to look deeper into the show, to consider not
only philosophy, but analogy, mythology, literary merit, etc.,
(while still, of course, wanting desperately to see what Spike
looks like naked!!!!! ;o))
What makes me sad sometimes is the number of people out there
who, I know, would absolutely adore BtVS if they'd ever loosened
up enough to give it a shot. So, for those of us who managed,
five years ago, to get past the title...a round of applause!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Interesting question, Little One...
-- Scout, 10:00:03 06/15/01 Fri
You are indeed a wise woman, Wisewoman, and I totally agree with
you. One of the things I love most about this board is that it
goes so far beyond the various "ships" that run through
so many of the other BtVS boards (e.g. the "Buffy and Angel
are soulmates meant to be together forever and if you disagree,
then you're just stupid" kind of stuff). This show is so
much deeper and works on so many more levels other than simply
who Buffy is or isn't in love with. It's that rarest of television
programs: one that's entertaining as well as mentally challenging,
clever and humorous but also dramatic and deeply moving. While
there are things that bother me from time to time (and who among
us doesn't say that), mostly I just watch and marvel. I find myself
thinking about it possibly far too much - which is how I ended
up here with like-minded people (and every day now I find myself
feeling absurdly pleased that I've finally found others like me).
Sadly, in my little corner of Britain, I have to say that I don't
know one other adult (or "proper grown-up" as my 9-year
old son says) among my circle of friends and acquaintances who
watches BtVS. Not one. When I ask (and believe me, I have), the
response is usually along the lines of "Oh, that's a show
for kids" (not helped by the timeslot the BBC puts it in
- 6:45 p.m.). It's true, definitely, that many people aren't open-minded
enough to get past the title to get to the wonderfulness within.
I must also say that I'm a red-blooded woman, a downright lusty
wench, and while I like having my brain tickled by Joss & Co.,
I'd still desperately love to see Spike naked!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> LOL........Scout -- Rufus, 14:21:39
06/15/01 Fri
The fact that you love BVS proves you have wonderful taste and
can see past the "just a show for kids" label. When
you admit you would like to see Spike naked...we know you are
human.......at least you have deep thoughts before you enter the
gutter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Does being a Former Tech Writer count? ... RTFM, after
all. -- Solitude1056, 06:53:40 06/14/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Does being a Former Tech Writer count? --
Manoon, 08:41:06 06/14/01 Thu
And what about being a CURRENT technical writer.. that's me!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Run away, run away! -- Solitude1056, 18:17:56
06/14/01 Thu
Heh. Noooo, I just moonlighted as a Tech Writer while taking a
break from Business Process Analysis. Man, that sounds quite the
fancy title. Sheesh. My credetials? I used to read Piers Anthony
books in college for the express purpose of editing his mediocre
prose til the books looked like they'd been used to sop a bloody
nose.
(Ok, so that's not all, but it's where I got my humble start.
Better than saying, "When I censor all the fun but mildly
illegal things I did in college, there's not much else I did that
I can mention in mixed company other than my Piers Anthony Mutilation
Obsession...")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Awwwwww I wanna hear about the illegal
stuff.......:):):):):) -- Rufus, 19:17:52 06/14/01 Thu
I'll never tell a soul.......:):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Okay now, is there anybody on this board who is
*not* a writer or an editor??!! ;o) -- fresne, 10:45:29 06/14/01
Thu
Okay, now that I've seen how many responses were not only yes,
but just how many tech writers we have (myself included), gotta
say in a professional writer sorta way, "huh, go figure."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Me, me, me!!!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 14:12:25 06/14/01
Thu
No way am I a writer but the 12 year old that can't spell or use
any grammar.......are I intimidated......hell yes.....but I post
anyway.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Awww. -- Solitude1056, 19:26:10 06/14/01
Thu
It's okay. I can write, but I don't always think so good. And
I post anyway! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Thinking....it's just so hard...can
we get someone else to do it????? -- Rufus, 21:26:12 06/14/01
Thu
I have to admit that it can be scary posting with people who know
their way around the written word....but what's a little fear?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> There's a job title for you:
"Token Thinking Person." -- Solitude1056, 06:32:05 06/15/01
Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I tain't no writer! -- Anthony8, 18:52:25 06/15/01
Fri
Writing has always been a painful chore for me. I dreaded it in
high school and I was Lord-King Procratinator when it came to
term papers in college. Consequently, I have held such day jobs
as a Congressional correspondent (writing letters for my local
congressman), judicial intern (writing memorandum opinions for
a federal judge), and corporate law clerk (writing legal opinions
for bank executives to disregard). Go figure. There must be some
kind of karmic payback happening.
Since I do enjoy talking (a lot), I have learned to approach my
writing here as a form of written talking. This would explain
why my posts really ramble on and disobey all grammatical rules
commonly used in polite circles. The great thing about this board
is that the advanced skill level and thoughtfulness of the writing
here encourages me to overcome my writing dread and make some
attempt to improve my own skills. I don't think there is a slouch
among us.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Um, don't look now, but I think you've become
one... -- Wisewoman, 19:05:46 06/15/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Uh-oh! Do I have to learn a secret handshake
or something? -- Anthony8, 19:49:13 06/15/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> ALRIGHT!! Let's sum up and get going! -- Liquidram, 14:40:56
06/13/01 Wed
Great responses everyone and I am anxious to get started!!
We have several names on the board and several volunteers for
the editing positions.
I think we are all in agreement that editing means editing and
not censorship.
You can all help me out now with submitting your "votes"
for the name. Please submit a post to this thread named "NAME"
and we can see which one we choose. The name can be more elaborate,
but let's remember to keep something that can be well translated
into a domain name. I loved the ThinkToMuch.com :0)
As for you editors out there, please submit your choices for editors
under the subject "EDITOR". There is no reason why we
can't have several to split the tasks.
I am really looking forward to this and have already started on
some graphics ideas which I will show you as soon as it is in
some order in the next couple of days.
Thanks for the great response! We are going to have a great time
with this one.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: List of Choices -- Dedalus, 15:49:53 06/13/01
Wed
First off, I should so be looking for employment right now.
Second off, since I'm already distracted, I thought a comprehensive
list of our candidates is in order, provided Liquidram does not
mind. Apologies if I forgot anyone, or spelled anything wrong.
EDITORS -
Aquitaine Wisewoman fresne Masq'd Lady purplegrrl (we could probably
use all of them)
NAMES - (and feel free to come up with any others)
The Existential Scoobies (ha-ha, that's mine) The Masq'd Philosophers
Guild (I too like the word "guild") MetaPhilosophies
of the Buffyverse (love the phrase Buffyverse) ThinksTooMuch.org
(hilarious) Tales of Brave Ulysses The Masq'd Avengers of Buffydom
(could work) Into the Woods Fictionary Corner (a very nice, homey
site - the kind you want to kick off your shoes, pull up by the
fire, and read some first rate fanfic at) The Pulse (I very much
like the double meaning)
I'll have to come back and vote when I decide. Maybe we should
list ourselves as "anonymous" for that!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Not only do I not mind; I thank you! (NT) --
Liquidram, 19:30:10 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> I not only don't mind, I thank you! (NT) --
Liquidram, 19:35:44 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> hmmmm repeat that one more time ?!? (NT) --
Liquidram, 19:36:49 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly what are you trying to say?
:-) -- Dedalus, 20:45:33 06/13/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Editor & Name - Some suggestions -- Aquitaine,
20:34:54 06/13/01 Wed
EDITOR (?)
OK. Since I'm pretty busy editing for BAPS (also a very academic
and literary bunch btw), could I come on board as a QC and Editing
Consultant? LOL. I still plan to continue writing fanfic for Buffy,
although Buffy's death has somewhat muddied the waters of my creative
juices. This is of the good since I have been able to start work
on writing that Great Canadian Novel I always tell my relatives
I'm writing when they ask whether I'm still single.
BTW, if any of you are looking for some really high-quality fanfic,
you should look up Annie Sewell-Jennings' fics on fanfiction.net
She's a notch above the rest IMO. There's also a very well executed
new fic called 'The Education of Zebras' that you can find at
the same site. But I digress...
NAME
How about "The Chosen Few"? LOL. Too elitist? "The
Vein Slayer" or "VeinGlory"? Ohhhh, for the naughtier
fiction, "Stakes and Stones"!?!
OK. Resolve face. Hmmmmmm.
How about "Fang Fiction" or "Filosofical Fang Fiction"?
******** Question: If we are so darn clever, how come so many
of us are unemployed? ROFL!
- Aquitaine/Larissa
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Editor & Name - Some suggestions --
Dedalus, 20:56:34 06/13/01 Wed
Not wanting to sound uncultured, but what exactly is BAPs? It
sounds like something I should know, but I don't.
There's a Great Canadian Novel?
Is there something between this site and our northern friends,
the Canadians? The proliferation of Canadian posters is pretty
unexpected.
I like Stakes and Stones. Nice ring. Of course, you can never
go wrong with Fang Fiction, too.
As to why all of us are unemployed, I think being even marginally
intelligent makes one unfit for what passes as human society.
And I'm being serious. I've been so bummed out all day. The kind
of things we do have no value ... literature, philosophy, art,
etc. Unless of course, someone gets pushed up against the wall
and is asked how to measure human value. Then they're all for
literature, philosophy, art, etc ... funny how that works.
And get this - I was thinking about going back for the masters
degree, a four year college is finally opening in my county, but
the graduate studies do not include ENGLISH. That really, really
annoys me.
I'm sorry. We're suppose to be talking about names and editors,
aren't we?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Wha'??? Unexpected???!!! Us Godless
Canadians ... -- Wisewoman, 21:20:19 06/13/01 Wed
are crushed! We love BtVS. We love AtS. We love philosophy...and...and...cats!
And chocolate!! And Spike!!! (oops, sorry, that's probably just
me).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Love Spike, too! -- rowan,
17:02:16 06/15/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Dedalus, would you accept an amendment?
-- Wisewoman, 21:26:25 06/13/01 Wed
Personally, I still love Existential Scoobies. Would you consider
adding "Notes from ES" or "Dispatches from ES?"
Sorta brings in the whole writer-ing aspect...just a thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dedalus, would you accept
an amendment? -- Dedalus, 10:07:58 06/14/01 Thu
Well thank you for your support, WiseWoman.
I suppose we could stand to add something ...
"Dispatches from the Existential Scoobies"
"Notes from the Existential Scoobies"
I like Notes better. Dispatches conjures up images of Xander on
horseback delivering mail in colonial America.
Or maybe that's just me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was thinking more
WWI trenches (LOL) but you're right... -- Wisewoman, 10:53:18
06/14/01 Thu
...and so my vote is, solidly,
"Notes from Existential Scoobies"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Dedalus - Suggest you rent/view
'Shakespeare in Love' immediately. -- OnM, 21:40:07 06/13/01 Wed
Art is the most valuable of all human pursuits. The fact that
it doesn't always pay is just the nature of things in the practical
realverse. Granted, you can't eat it when you're hungry, but to
fill the belly and leave the soul famished is starvation of a
more insidious and destructive sort.
Things change.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dedalus - Suggest you
rent/view 'Shakespeare in Love' immediately. -- Dedalus, 10:05:31
06/14/01 Thu
Things change? Sometimes I wonder. I have an associates in history
(another relatively useless field), and I'm not so sure.
Still, maybe the fact that there is so much struggle behind creativity
is what makes it what it is.
And yes, art is the most valuable of all human pursuits. I would
go farther than that. It is practically the only human pursuit
worth anything. And a step farther. It's what makes us human.
Romanticism is practically my theology. I have a dog named Lord
Byron. Preaching to the choir here.
I doubt I'm renting Shakespeare in Love - I can't stand the way
Gwynneth enunciates the word "poetry."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Editor & Name - Some suggestions
-- Aquitaine, 22:09:12 06/13/01 Wed
*** Not wanting to sound uncultured, but what exactly is BAPs?
It sounds like something I should know, but I don't.***
Uncultured? Is that like bad brie? ROFL! BAPS stands for the Bloody
Awful Poet Society. You can find us at www.bloodyawfulpoet.com
and at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bloody_Awful/
*** There's a Great Canadian Novel? ***
There are *many* great Canadian novels. Grrr argh! Can you tell
I have an MA with a specialisation in Can Lit? LOL.
*** Is there something between this site and our northern friends,
the Canadians? The proliferation of Canadian posters is pretty
unexpected.***
No, it's just that Canadians have supremely good taste.
*** As to why all of us are unemployed, I think being even marginally
intelligent makes one unfit for what passes as human society.
And I'm being serious. I've been so bummed out all day. The kind
of things we do have no value ... literature, philosophy, art,
etc. Unless of course, someone gets pushed up against the wall
and is asked how to measure human value. Then they're all for
literature, philosophy, art, etc ... funny how that works. ***
Big sigh. Well, I was working as a technical writer for a high-tech
company and I must say I am rather relieved that the fiber-optic
Gold Rush pettered out. Technical writing nearly wiped my creative
slate clean. Now I am unemployed but happy, very very happy.
- Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Editor & Name - Some suggestions
-- Dedalus, 10:00:37 06/14/01 Thu
Bloodly Awful Poets, huh? I'll have to check that out.
And yes, I know there are many great Canadian novels, I just didn't
know there was an archetypal Great Canadian Novel like here in
the US.
Canadians do have good taste.
I could never get into technical writing. I'm sure I need to,
or at least I needed to a few years ago, but I've always been
more on the creative side.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Creativity quashers
-- verdantheart, 13:52:31 06/14/01 Thu
I know I'm a little off-topic, but had to say, technical writing
pales in comparison to attending UCSD as a creativity drain! (I
know from experience!)
- vh
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Editor & Name - Some suggestions
-- Nina, 19:06:18 06/14/01 Thu
"Now I am unemployed but happy, very very happy."
Well one more thing we have in common then! :) I'm trying to get
rid of my net obsession to go hunt for work...and where to you
find me? Here, lurking again! Ah la la! Better be happy about
it! :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> requiem for the unemployed
-- purplegrrl, 08:54:34 06/15/01 Fri
I guess we'd all rather hang out here in ATPoBtVS pseudo-Buffyverse
among our fellow Buffy-philes than to do something as prosaic
as look for a job that will continue to put food on our table
and a roof over our head.
I've decided that my current bout of unemployment gives me a chance
to watch "Passions" (should I invite Spike over?) and
work on my novel. Hopefully I'll find fulfilling employment before
the money runs out!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Editor & Name - Some suggestions --
bess, 10:50:02 06/15/01 Fri
heh. how about "time to kill" ? or strike that, reverse...
"killing time"..... on second thought, what awful puns
! bad me. i'll find a soap that's on, watch it as punishment....
hee hee... ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: List of Choices -- fresne, 10:49:41 06/14/01
Thu
Hmmm...problematic. I like them all. In a top three kind of way,
I'd say:
The Existential Scoobies Fictionary Corner The Pulse
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> thepulse.com/net/org/tv is not available
-- Liquidram, 12:14:01 06/14/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: For what it's worth at this
point I like "Existential Scoobies"! -- Nina, 19:08:07
06/14/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: NAMES - Some additional suggestions
-- OnM, 19:29:01 06/14/01 Thu
Been puttin' the l'il ol' grey cells to work some more, and have
come up with the following suitably ironic and or quasi-profound
appellations for you to ponder. Mucho, many thanks to jenoff and
his collection of brilliant episode reviews and classic Buffyquotes
for inspiring most of these:
(HPT = Home page title STL = Subtitle)
URL:___firebadtreepretty.org HPT:___Fire Bad / Tree Pretty - The
Existential Scoobyverse STL:___'A Collection of Essays and Fanfic
Exploring the Outer Limits of Buffydom - Or Not'
URL:___godsdon'tpay.org HPT:___Gods Don't Pay - Essays and Fanfic
from Underworld Bottom Feeders STL:___Literate Thoughts and Speculation
on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___tasteofheart.org HPT:___The Taste of Your Heart STL:___Literate
Fanfic and Philosophical Essays on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___weightoftheworld.org HPT:___The Weight of the World STL:___Literate
Fanfic and Essays on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___petrifiedhamsters.org HPT:___A Collection of Essays and
Fanfic Exploring the Outer Limits of Buffydom - Or Not STL:___'Everyone
wants petrified hamsters, and they're never happy with them' --Rupert
Giles
URL:___drowninginyou.org HPT:___A collection of Essays and Philosophical
Fanfic on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___scoffatgravity.org HPT:___Watchers Scoff at Gravity STL:___Literate
Fanfic and Essays on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___oneeyedchicklet.org HPT:___The Existential Scoobies - In
the Land of the Blind, the Camera Never Blinks STL:___Thinking
Too Much on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
URL:___moebius.spiral.org HPT:___The Moebius Spiral STL:___Thinking
Outside the Hypercube on BtVS - Literate Essays & Fanfic
*******
OK, getting far out now, but, hey, that's how it works sometimes!
The choosing of names is a serious business. I mean, if I signed
these things with, say, E. Fudd, you'd never take me seriously,
right?
Hope these are suitably inspirational.
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I love Fire Bad, Tree Pretty!
LOL -- Dedalus, 07:52:08 06/15/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I love Fire Bad, Tree
Pretty! LOL -- purplegrrl, 08:58:32 06/15/01 Fri
I like Fire Bad, Tree Pretty, too.
Also petrified hamsters!
***'Everyone wants petrified hamsters, and they're never happy
with them' --Rupert Giles***
LOL
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about "The
Land of Shrimp and Bunny"? -- rowan, 19:27:28 06/15/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Did someone say
"Shrimp"? Interesting. -- Anthony8, 19:52:29 06/15/01
Fri
The demon from outer space
(long) -- Slayrunt, 21:28:36 06/11/01 Mon
This is my first attempt, been lurking awhile, but here goes.
I've enjoyed your discussions on the many topics of Buffy, and
I thought I would ask a little question that the Ben and innocence
thread made me think about.
In the ep with the demon that killed the crazys and attacked Joyce,
who called the demon? I assumed it was Ben. If it was, would he
been an innocent?
What caused the mass of insanity in history that Willow discovered?
I assumed it was Glory, but she was only here for 25 years.
Ok, two questions, I guess. Waiting to here your responses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Killer snot monster from outer space aka Queller demon......
-- Rufus, 21:49:11 06/11/01 Mon
Ben did call the Queller demon. I did question his actions then
as it was murder. He may not have done the killing himself but
the people died as a result of what Ben did. I found that a bit
cold. That is why he wasn't an innocent any more, he participated
in the covering up of and the plan to destroy the world to get
home of Glory. I do feel bad as Ben never really had a chance,
his influences were that of minions and when he finally caved
he was acting on the promise of a god he thought was going to
win. I don't know what made the people insane in the research
that the SG did. The Quellor demon just may be a kind of messy
solution to the problem of dealing with the insane.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: