March 2002 posts

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The Loa's prophecy -- LadyStarlight, 12:16:34 03/09/02 Sat

Something about the whole Loa prophecy thing has been bugging me, and I think I figured it out.

To go back to the Hamburger Loa for a minute:

Wesley casts grey powder on the ground in front of the statue.

Now, admittedly, I’m not a practitioner or scholar of voodoo/vaundun, but from what I understand, the Loa is the collective term for the gods worshipped in voodoo. In order to approach them, chalk marks (verve) are made on the ground. These are (I think) either symbols to summon the specific Loa to worship, or pathways for the supplicant to enter into the realm of the Loa. Wesley makes no attempt to draw or mention of the verve.

Offerings in voodoo tend to be more concrete than a bag of grey powder; cigars and brandy are the most common ones I’ve run across.

So right there, we’ve got a deviation from voodoo rites. Does this deviation mean the ME writers couldn’t be bothered to do the research? Or, is part of the Loa’s general crankiness due to the fact that Wesley did not approach the Loa properly?

On to the prophecy….

The first portent will shake the ground. The second will burn the air. The last will turn the sky to blood.

An earthquake? That’s the first portent? We live in California!

Earthquake. Fire. Blood. Be heedful of the signs, human, and trouble the Loa no more.

Wesley immediately jumps to the conclusion, after the quake/gas explosion/Angel bleeding in the hotel, that those were the three signs of the prophecy. But, I draw your attention to the last 2 minutes of Sleep Tight:

Sarjhan opens the portal.
The earth shakes.
Wesley’s SUV catches fire.
And the sky seen through the portal is red.

Is this what the Loa meant? I found it significant that the last portent changed from turn the sky to blood to just blood. Were they just jerking Wesley around in retaliation for not observing the proper forms? Did the so-mysterious wizard leave a few instructions out? Or have I just been sniffing too many cleaning fluid fumes today?

[> Re: The Loa's prophecy -- WW, 12:20:53 03/09/02 Sat

I like it, LadyS. And if your interpretation of the portents is correct, it would lead me to believe that Holtz is the "father" who will kill the "son." These portents occured immediately before Holtz escaped with Connor, so it would seem that they pertain to him, rather than to Angel.

Ooooh, April 15 seems so far away!


[> I thought we had agreed cleaning was retro?? -- AurraSing, 17:40:36 03/09/02 Sat

You have an intriguing point going on here....and frankly anyone who gives credence to a talking burger while obviously sleep-deprived deserves everything he gets!

[> Re: The Loa's prophecy -- O'Cailleagh, 19:14:26 03/09/02 Sat

When Angel bled in the hotel, I believe it was onto Connor's baby blanket, which was blue and patterned with clouds...'the sky will turn to blood'...I could be wrong though

[> [> Re: The Loa's prophecy -- LadyStarlight, 19:49:36 03/09/02 Sat

I did see that, but the wording still bothers me. "turn to blood" to me means the whole sky turns red. Could just be me though.

AtS:Rumours, Speculation, poss Spoilers -- yabyumpan, 12:41:11 03/09/02 Sat

I decided to put this together as my head is doing Linda Blair impersonations from all that’s happening on AtS. I’ve gathered this from various sites and am aware that it may not be complete:

Rumour: Cordy and poss. Groo have been kidnapped, poss. by Lilah/W&H
Cordy has an “epiphany”, hears, via bugs still at the hotel, Angel tell Lorne that he loves her.

Speculation: Connor is: Sahjhan’ Groo, Holtz, Angel, Liam, Wesley, Lindsey, Cordelia’s son, Buffy’s son, Lindsey’s Son

Poss. Spoilers:
David Greenwalt has said (interview with Scott D Pierce, Deseret News Editor). "The Powers That Be, they operate in many dimensions. And I think she's being prepared for something really big and special. There's something really huge coming her way that she's going to do." Exactly what (if any) physical manifestations of her demon-ness Cordelia will have remains to be seen. "She keeps looking for horns and a tail," Greenwalt said. "The answer is I honestly don't know. . . . It depends on what we need."
Also these from DSS Satellite Guide for Cincinnati
Angel- Episode 61, Forgiving.
In the three years that Cordelia(Charisma Carpenter) has worked with Angel(David Boreanaz), she has had visions of everything from world ending threats to singing demons, but she has never had a vision of a broken and distraught Angel. It’s a vision that will change her life forever.

Angel-Monday, April 22. Episode 62 -Double Or Nothing
Cordelia(Charisma Carpenter) and Groo(Mark Lutz) come back to L.A. after Cordelia received a vision of Angel(David Boreanaz), only to become the next pawn in Lilah's(Stephanie Romanov) plan to bring forth Angelus. Angel must momentarily set aside his search for his son to save both Cordelia and Groo, but doing so might cost him that which is the most fragile. His soul.

Angel- Revelations and Repercussions. Episode 63
For every action, there is a consequence. Wesley(Alexis Denisof) must deal with his actions as the Fang Gang continues in their quest to find Connor. Cordelia(Charisma Carpenter) must deal with her long dormant feelings for Angel(David Boreanaz) as the ordeal that they went through when Angel rescued her strains her tumultuous relationship with Groo(Mark Lutz).

Angel- Episode 64-Rock the Cradle
Wesley(Alexis Denisof) and Fred(Amy Acker) discover the true origins of Connor as they find out that in order for the child to truly have been born he would have needed a human mother. It's a discovery that will rock Angel(David Boreanaz) and Cordelia(Charisma Carpenter) and test the limits of their new relationship.

Re: above, I haven’t actually seen either the DG article or DSS Satellite Guide for Cincinnati, both were posted on the Stranger Things board but I’m going with the assumption that they are genuine.

(Birthday) Skip: "You may wanna think about that. The only way *you* get to keep the visions is by becoming - part demon. (Cordy looks down) The process isn't easy. It'll make your vision pain feel like a stroll through candyland. And even after the pain subsides the effects of the transition will be numerous and unpredictable. You may never be able to lead a human life again."
(Loyalty) Lilah: "I swiped it from his doctor's office. I don't know what good it'll do you though. Boys in the lab looked it over, said it was utterly run-of-the-mill. Completely normal."
Sahjhan: "That's because they're looking for the wrong thing."
(Offspring) Darla drinks from Cordy, she is the last person she drinks from before Connor “arrives”. Angel seemed unaware of the baby’s heartbeat and soul before Darla drank from Cordy.

Ok, now I’m going with my own speculation, based on the above:

We have yet to find out what sort of Demon Cordy is; What if she is a demon similar to Sahjhan, a time travel demon. When Darla fed off her the blood may have infected the baby with some of her demon-ness. Connor grows up in alternate dimension after being kidnapped by Holtz and becomes Sahjhan. Cordy’s demon-ness comes out while being kidnapped by Lilah, she compares her blood to Connors or poss through all that Com-shucking with Groo. Because of what she now is, Cordy is the only one who is able to open the portal and rescue Connor.

That’s what I’ve come up with so far, full of holes I know: why does Sahjhan hate Angel and Darla, does he know about Cordy, the baby was kicking before Darla bit Cordy, maybe it had a heartbeat so the blood could flow so enabling the kicking but it may not have had a soul and now has essence of Cordy.

Anymore thoughts, speculation, rumours etc

[> Re: AtS:Rumours, Speculation, poss Spoilers -- wiscoboy, 15:10:17 03/09/02 Sat

OK, one big hole in the theory....Cordy wasn't yet a demon when Darla bit her. The whole baby is of Cordy is a very interesting thought though. It makes sense that the baby would need fresh human(Cordy) blood to become alive.

DH Lawrence and Spike? - - Anneth, 15:04:55 03/09/02 Sat

This is from an "ultra-condensed" version of _Sons and Lovers_, by DH Lawrence:

I have found a beautiful but stupid woman who has enthralled me. My inability to resolve my attraction to her with my devotion to my mother has left me in ruin. (dies)"

I've never read _Sons and Lovers_ (I loathed _Lady Chatterly's Lover_ enough to never attmept any Lawrence again), but I feel confidant that someone else on this board has. So - is this a drastic oversimplification or are William's FFL character and death implicated?

(n.b. - I'm sorry if most of this message comes out as bold; I'm still trying to figure out that crazy thing called HTML.)

[> Re: DH Lawrence and Spike? -- Wisewoman, 16:14:04 03/09/02 Sat

Hey, you did fine on the bold...congrats!

It's been about 20 years since I read Sons and Lovers, but I wouldn't necessarily equate William the Bloody Awful Poet with the William of that tale, mainly because of the difference in class (the DHL William was the son of a coal miner, I believe). However, the super-condensed version you gave is at least superficially accurate.

Also, our William's attraction to and rejection by the beautiful Cecily may have led to his death, but I don't think we know anything of his mother other than that she would worry if he didn't come home. Now that I think about it, maybe that's all we need to know about her...


Reading Recommendation for New Buffy Book of Critical Essays! -- Rob, 20:17:44 03/09/02 Sat

Today, I was at my local Borders and found a very good book, with critical essays on both "Buffy" and "Angel." I enjoyed reading it very much, because it dealt with many issues, not the least of which had to do with the philosophy and metaphysics of the Jossverse. It was very in-depth and scholarly, but, at the same time, easy to read and non-elitist. I would like to recommend it to everybody here to read. Some of it was very thought-provoking, and a lot of it sounded like the stuff that gets posted here every day. I think we really should publish a compendium of works from AtPoBtVS.

Oh, yeah...You want the name?

It's "Reading the Vampire Slayer: An Unofficial Critical Companion to 'Buffy' and 'Angel'," edited by Roz Kaveney. The ISBN # is 1-86064-762-6.

Here's the list of essay titles:

1) She Saved the World. A Lot--An Introduction to the Themes and Structures of 'Buffy' and 'Angel'

2) Entropy as Demon: Buffy in Southern California

3) Vampire Dialectics: Knowledge, Institutions, and Labor

4) Laugh, Spawn of Hell, Laugh

5) It Wasn't Our World Anymore. They Made it Theirs: Reading Space and Place

6) What You Are, What's To Come: Feminisms, Citizenship, and the Divine

7) Just a Girl: Buffy as Icon

8) Concentrate on the Kicking Movie: Buffy and East Asian Cinema

9) Staking a Claim: The Series and its Slash Fan-Fiction

10) They Always Mistake Me for the Character I Play!--Transformation, Identity, and Role-playing in the Buffyverse (and a defense of fine acting)

Intrigued yet? Get the book! It's really worth it...I finished it in under two hours.


[> Speaking of critical essays - yo, Sol-- whassup with the ATPoZine? -- OnM, 21:12:29 03/09/02 Sat

[> while we're recommending books -- leslie, 21:32:51 03/09/02 Sat

I just finished reading _Food for the Dead: On the Trail of New England's Vampires_, by folklorist Michael E. Bell (Carroll & Graf, 2001). The personal-journey narrative format of the book is a little irritating at times, but there's a lot of really interesting stuff on vampire beliefs in eighteenth and nineteenth century New England, good representation of what folklore research is like, some (somewhat unsatisfying) comparison of "real" folkloric vampires with media vampires, but in particular, any Buffy fan will find constant points of similarity and some significant points of difference between these "real" vampires and those we know and love on the small screen. One part I found very thought-provoking was that "real" vampires were believed especially to prey on their families, which has some interesting correspondances with Angel's penchant for wiping out both his family and Dru's.

[> Re: Reading Recommendation for New Buffy Book of Critical Essays! -- Valhalla, 21:32:56 03/09/02 Sat

I have this - it's fabulous. Someone mentioned it here a while ago. A lot of the essays discuss topics similar to ones that come up on this board.

One of my favorites is in Chapter 10. It talks about the high quality of acting on Buffy, and points out that not only has almost every actor had to play another version of their own character (Angel/Angelus, Good Willow/Evil Willow), but several characters have had to play their main characters pretending to play to be another character. For example, SMG plays Faith pretending to be herself. It's kind of mindbending in the way some time travel plots are.

The shooting script for Loyalty is up. -- VampRiley, 20:27:49 03/09/02 Sat



[> Also, jenoff's review of *Hell's bells* is up. -- OnM, 21:19:44 03/09/02 Sat


[> [> And, as per usual, I enjoy reading jenoff, but only agree with about 15% of it. -- Rob, 10:44:48 03/11/02 Mon

I don't think that jenoff focused correctly on the crux of the breakup. She does mention the fact that he thought the marriage might devolve into his parent's situation. Where she misses the boat, I believe, however, is in not stressing the fact that Xander wasn't worried for both of them (as jenoff implies), but for Anya. And not for the reasons FakeFutureXander wanted him to be. FFX wanted to paint Anya as a monster to scare Xander away. Instead, Xander saw himself as the monster, and worried he would end up hurting (or killing) Anya if he stayed with her. Jenoff implies that it's almost out of character for Xander to bail, ignoring the evidence in "Restless" and other references to his parents, that these concerns about an abusive relationship occuring have always been in the back of Xander's mind. Further, the old man didn't only show the future to Xander, but made him feel everything that occurred as well. It must have been very hard for Xander to cope with having felt, against his will, all those feelings of hatred and disgust, and then get married a few minutes later. Real or not, that future felt real, and that is what is important.

I do agree with jenoff regarding Anya, mostly, however, and how her vows go from the silly to the poignant and insightful.

I think jenoff is a very good writer, so I enjoy reading the reviews, and coming up with arguments about why I disagree with them is always thought-provoking as well. I like reading jenoff because I respect her as a reviewer, even though I barely ever agree with her!


[> [> I enjoyed reading jenoff's review, and, as usual, only agreed with about 15% of it! -- Rob, 10:46:39 03/11/02 Mon

I don't think that jenoff focused correctly on the crux of the breakup. She does mention the fact that he thought the marriage might devolve into his parent's situation. Where she misses the boat, I believe, however, is in not stressing the fact that Xander wasn't worried for both of them (as jenoff implies), but for Anya. And not for the reasons FakeFutureXander wanted him to be. FFX wanted to paint Anya as a monster to scare Xander away. Instead, Xander saw himself as the monster, and worried he would end up hurting (or killing) Anya if he stayed with her. Jenoff implies that it's almost out of character for Xander to bail, ignoring the evidence in "Restless" and other references to his parents, that these concerns about an abusive relationship occuring have always been in the back of Xander's mind. Further, the old man didn't only show the future to Xander, but made him feel everything that occurred as well. It must have been very hard for Xander to cope with having felt, against his will, all those feelings of hatred and disgust, and then get married a few minutes later. Real or not, that future felt real, and that is what is important.

I do agree with jenoff regarding Anya, mostly, however, and how her vows go from the silly to the poignant and insightful.

I think jenoff is a very good writer, so I enjoy reading the reviews, and coming up with arguments about why I disagree with them is always thought-provoking as well. I like reading jenoff because I respect her as a reviewer, even though I barely ever agree with her!


[> [> [> oops! -- Rob, 10:48:03 03/11/02 Mon

[> Re: It's AGAINST THE RULES to link to ILLEGAL MATERIAL -- Sloan, 09:16:24 03/10/02 Sun

People always complain about some posts linking to sites like TWIZ or whatever, but there s always no problems when it's all about Leoff or Psyche. It's discrimination! And all against the rules also!

[> [> But is it really illegal material? Whose rules are you talking about? -- VampRiley, 09:41:42 03/10/02 Sun

The reviews are of what someone has seen on the small screen. What some people complain about is spamming. Now, I've seen many people post links to the shooting scripts and reviews before. So, I thought it was okay. Not that I believed it was right just because others were doing it. I just thought it was okay to do. Many on this board have been posting on the internet longer than I have. Since I had seen others do it and not have anyone say that they shouldn't have, I thought it was okay.

And whose rules are you refering to? I've never heard of them before.

Cleantes? You're a lawyer. Know anything about this?


[> [> [> Re: But is it really illegal material? Whose rules are you talking about? -- Farstrider, 11:41:49 03/10/02 Sun

I am a lawyer too. Posting reviews is totally legal - it is obviously commentary and therefore fair use. Posting shooting scripts is an obvious violation of copyright laws. It's no different than posting the actual episodes them selves. I am not sure about linking to shooting scripts - I know you can get in trouble for helping others violate copyright. For example, there was a big case between Universal (I think) and Sony over the VCR - Universal said that the only reason to have a VCR was to help people violate copyright laws and therefore no VCRs. The only reason Sony won the case was because the Supreme Court held that taping TV shows to watch them later (a.k.a. time-shifting) is not a violation of copyright. (This is the same reason TiVo is legal).


[> [> [> [> Linking, copying, and other OT kinda things -- Solitude1056, 16:20:50 03/10/02 Sun

I am not sure about linking to shooting scripts - I know you can get in trouble for helping others violate copyright.

I don't think it's a matter of it being illegal or legal to link to a site with quote-unquote illegal material. Fact is, on the internet, how the hell is a copyright holder going to track down each and every single one of us who linked to, visited, or knew someone who visited or linked to a site, or even owned a computer that linked to or visited a site? Frankly, pretty unrealistic to expect it, even given they could figure out our names and social security numbers just based on our IP numbers...

So sure, some things are technically illegal, but the question is at what point does the corporation lose more money by enforcing its copyrights than it would lose by letting the violations occur? View, for example, Star Trek - whose trademarks and copyrights have been well established for some thirty years now. Fans of that series violate the bleedin' copyright and trademark laws all over the bloomin' place, and the copyright/trademark holders don't enforce it for one simple reason: they make more money off happy fans than they do off unhappy fans... and they've found that their happy fans also do more free advertising on their shows' behalf than other fans, as well.

Buffy & Co. exist in this day & age, to a great extent, thanks to a whole bunch of diehard fans who just won't shut up and go away. As a photographer, I wouldn't be happy if I knew you were copying my images to put on your webpage, but if your webpage says, "go buy/see/read this photographer's work" in hot pink 36 font letters, hmmm. I'd check, and I just might see that these fans' incessant ranting about the show, with various screenshots and fanfics (which are also violation, too, natch) and scripts and transcripts... are all on websites with humonguous traffic, and that my show is way more successful now with a whole bunch of spinoffs and books and comics and music CDs and whatnot.

Gee, an intelligent businessperson would say: hmm, the benefits from letting fans do their own thing appears to outweight the drawbacks from any minor loss of royalties from the copyrights/trademarks. At least, that appears to be what Joss Whedon & his crew have determined - since where the hell do you think the shooting scripts come from, anyway?

- not a lawyer, but I play one on the web... ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Linking, copying, and other OT kinda things -- Farstrider, 16:47:07 03/10/02 Sun

Of course you are right from a practical standpoint. But enforcement of copyright tends to be knee jerk, and not well thought out.

But, in the law, if you are not diligently protecting your copyright, you may be found to be giving it up. So there is a motivation for an intelligent businessperson to protect the copyright works.

Even if ME may not have a problem with shooting scripts being leaked (which I doubt) I am sure UPN and/or Fox does, which is why sites offering scripts are taken down all the time.

And, I don't think fans like you and I will boycott Buffy just because we don't like the fact that some websites have been closed down. So, I don't think that is a strong argument for restraint.

Copyright holders won't try to track down you or I for visiting sites, but they may go after large linking sites or sites with the copyrighted material. After all, Napster was little more than an electronic meeting room to swap copyrighted material.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Linking, copying, and other OT kinda things -- Solitude1056, 19:15:22 03/10/02 Sun

Even if ME may not have a problem with shooting scripts being leaked (which I doubt) I am sure UPN and/or Fox does, which is why sites offering scripts are taken down all the time.

Which is where the joke was hidden in my post - Joss Whedon doesn't own a single copyright to any of the Buffy stuff. It's all work-for-hire. The studio owns all of the copyrights. So from the POV of the writers, they could probably care less if the scripts are out on the internet (hence their assistance), because they've already been paid every penny they'll make. But then I have my own knee-jerk reaction against work-for-hire contracts...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Speaking of Napster -- Traveler, 22:24:02 03/10/02 Sun

Thanks to the music industry's shortsightedness, there are now a dozen programs more abusive to copyright laws than Napster ever was. Nor have they seen their revenues increase significently since it was shut down. Add huge court costs into consideration, and you have an all around loser.

[> [> Re: It's AGAINST THE RULES to link to ILLEGAL MATERIAL -- LadyStarlight, 10:07:59 03/10/02 Sun

Sloan: people complain about Twiz & such b/c of the self-serving 'oh this is such a great site. Go check it out' mentality of the person who posts. Also b/c of the number of posts about it.

VR: there's been some discussion of the legality of posting shooting scripts. AFAIK, linking to it is fine and thank you for doing so. Being snowed in, I'll probably need something to read in a day or so. :)

[> [> It's not your place to say what is against the rules -- vampire hunter D, 10:57:24 03/10/02 Sun

This is Masq's board. Let her deal with it.

[> [> Re: THE RULES: My Point Of View -- Sloan, 13:21:50 03/10/02 Sun

I do not intend to make the rules. I was referring to rules of some boards like Buffy's Cross and Stake who CENSOR any links to any sites other than Leoff or pysche, their own personal partner. I like TWIZ, I often email tyhe webmaster, he's a cool guy from france, far from all the bullshit some people can say on the boards. I just want sometimes do promotion for his site but I can't becase some people, like vampire hunter or the Buuffy's Cross and Stake shippers just censor my links. It's discrimination, it's racism. My point of view is boards should be censorship free, i.e. we should post whatever we want. The TWIZ board has no rules and you're free to talk about anything, to say you're not happy about this or that. Buffy's Cross and Stake and even ATPoBtSV always censor stuff you can say if they don t agree with you. SO when I said "It's against the rules to post illegal material" I just meant to make people react about all that. There's no illegal material. What you can see on TV is your property. IF you don't wanna be sued, just change the name Buffy by Luffy and that s it. Law is stupid you know. If reviews are not illegal, why do they make illegal transcripts. It's just a complete review with dialogues! Anyway my point was DO NOT CENSOR ON BOARDS and that s all.

[> [> [> Please don't feed the trolls ... this is yet ANOTHER spam for TWIZ -- !, 13:40:02 03/10/02 Sun

[> [> [> Re: THE RULES: Another Point Of View -- Darby, 13:42:33 03/10/02 Sun

The amazing thing is that TWIZ seems to attract the densest people...

Sorry, that was too nasty. But TWIZ people are either really clueless, not paying attention, or believers that any attention is positive. Maybe all three.

But we here are not. When one of the board's regular participants wants to alert people to an interesting site, we do it and leave it at that. The TWIZ people swoop in from the ether and drop what are thinly-veiled ads aimed at the general tone of B/A boards, which this is not. Once was okay, we could deal, but it was repeated over and over (sometimes using regulars' names, which was a major breakage of the rules) and became essentially spam. It's not a legal thing, it's not a censorship thing, it's a showing-some-respect thing. It's a you're-online-so-buy-a-clue thing. The majority of the participants here (or so it seems from those posting) look on the TWIZ stuff as an annoyance akin to telemarketers, which I guess to an advertising drone is a good thing, but which should also explain to you the response the site engenders here. Something I might have bookmarked and visited sporadically I'm making an issue of never going to again.

[> The shooting script for Hell's Bells is up, too. -- VampRiley, 06:37:17 03/11/02 Mon



[> [> ROFL! You go, VR!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 08:02:20 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> Clem -- the ever sweet comfortador. -- VampRiley, 10:03:17 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> *Standing up and applauding VR!!!* -- Rob, 10:33:49 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> I'm sorry...but I have to ask -- Why? -- VampRiley, 11:19:43 03/11/02 Mon

Not that I'm not ungratful for the kind words, I'm very grateful. And thanks for them but...I'm at a loss for what the reason is. Is it because I've kept posting links in threads? That's all I've been able to figure out. Working on my spring break, take-home archaeological midterm has left my brain a little slagged. My normal intutition is really off today.


[> [> [> [> Nope. It's... -- dubdub, 12:09:35 03/11/02 Mon

just the really cool way you bypassed all the folderol and trollery in the thread and carried on with your links as if it had never happened...I just love that!

(And I think Rob did, too.)


[> [> [> [> [> Yup, that's why... -- Rob, 12:45:45 03/11/02 Mon

There was that whole thread by that TWIZ spammer that the other links shouldn't have been posted, and then you posted a third link, as if you were purposely disregarding everything that the spammer wrote. I thought it was really great of you to just go forth like that, head held high, and post the next link. And I thought you'd done that on purpose!


[> [> [> [> [> [> I geuss you could say it was on purpose. -- VampRiley, 13:56:41 03/11/02 Mon

As far as the copyright stuff, I'm pretty much in the dark...sort of. I have a night light but not an over the head, leave-no-darkness-existing kind of light on the subject. So, I figured to just let others hash it out.

My other thought was something that reminded me of a so-called philosopher that visited us recently who shall remain name-less. Many threads get archieved too soon when types like him come around. And I had already made one or two other new threads that were just about notifying (Angel's Acolyte moving to a new address and another one, I can't remember what -- they're gone now. Masq -- the enigmatic moderator hovering just above our heads while staying invisible. She appears to the faithful with an opinion, notification and to tidy up the board, among other things). I figured that since there was already a small thread about reviews and shooting scripts that I've alread posted to before, posting again seemed like the right thing to do.

And since I made a rather long post recently, that actually took me a few hours to write, saying how I and the others of this board are tolerant and respectful, I figured I'd let Sloan say his/her/it's peace. But it didn't bother me or change how I feel about linking to other sites. There really isn't anything to add to that particular portion of the discussion that I haven't already said. But none the less, I strived continue my linkage. For I am The VR. The Souless One -- God of Links.


PS: No one can stop my linkage, except for the uber-God -- The Masq. The Philosophical One

Nuff said.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Link on, VR, link on! -- Rob, 16:22:05 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ooo, I feel all... mysterious -- Masq, 16:53:24 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now you grok why we call her The First Evil! .................. ;-D -- The Second Evil, 18:32:35 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Grok? That's a new one on me. Or is that just a typo? ;-P -- VampRiley, 19:21:01 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's from Robert Heinlein's *Stranger in a Strange Land* -- The Third Evil, 19:58:19 03/11/02 Mon

'Grok' means to understand, but on a higher level than the word 'understand' normally implies. It's like becoming one with the concept, a totality of knowing.

More or less.

You're welcome!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's from Robert Heinlein's *Stranger in a Strange Land* -- VampRiley, 20:10:30 03/11/02 Mon


She's definitly The First Evil.

She's evil.

But in a good way.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ahh... sorta like *d-evil-icious* ? -- Jects'n Mirr (Huu-yahhh!), 20:22:06 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. -- VampRiley, 21:00:15 03/11/02 Mon

Baring soul now...but it IS BTVS related... -- Teri, 09:15:50 03/10/02 Sun

Well maybe. Kay so I'm going to do something very BOLD. I'm going to share the dream I had this morning. It's Buffy related...well sorta...but I HAD to share here because I am dying to know how the BRILLIANT minds of this board would analyize it. Or I'm just foolishly giving you ALL a good laugh or an excuse to think me reallly strange. Which is fine! I'm okay with that. Here's the dream.

Starts off with being in the car with this lady who is doing the driving and we are driving through a small town and we are talking and I tell her I like this town always wanted to take a trip back to it some Saturday and drive through it...around it, take my time sort of site seeing it. She tells me there’s not much to see. She grew up here. Really boring.
We’re going to some business thing or nother. We pull out onto a highway and she’s driving really fast telling me she knows her way around this part. Suddenly she is pulling onto a very narrow highway with two lanes that sits on top of a steep cliff..straight drops down both sides
She gets pissed at a mac truck who is trying to cut her off from behind flips him off and proceeds to speed up to like 180... we dont die.

Suddenly I’m done and leaving something that we went to and I get to drive my car home...whew but I’m not sure where I am exactly.
I have to find the way back to long p, can’t remember it cause the name was very long. And apparently that’s where home is.

I see a highway, Im not sure which way p-word place is so I pull past the hwy into an icecream store to ask.
They give me VERY confusing directions. I’m in the middle of trying to sort those out when suddenly I’m sitting on a couch with Sarah and Ally and we are waiting for James. For some reason. (TOLD YA it'd be BTVS RELATED!)

All three of us are on this couch. I’m sitting up straight. Sarah is laying back with her head on the arm rest and her legs propped up against Alley is sorta just sitting slouched way down on her side. Suddenly James appears. That’ s always how it is in dreams..

Clothed. He goes to sit on a chair with a footstool and is talking to all of us...but there’s really no dialogue going on that I can remember..when suddenly he’s taking his clothes off and I’m like shocked and hurriedly turning away from him to NOT look. I’m like...okay, he’s naked. Sarahs says...Yeah..he’s naked around us all the time. No big. I’m thinking well it’s a big to me!
As I try harder not to look. James sees Im trying not to look, thinks it’s funny and so he tries to do stuff like get in front of me to make me look. I won’t. Suddenly they have all left the room and I’m there alone so i get up and try to find the restroom to check out the makeup and hair... yeah I’m vain I spose..

I find it..I discover I’m in a really big old house but the restroom is like a ladies room with stalls and not a bathroom which should be in a house.

I go to look in the mirror I look fine. I look down at the sink to wash my hands and look back up and suddenly I notice that on the left side of my face theres suddenly all these vains showing....BIG BLUE VIENS. So I pull my hair in front of that side of my face wondering why it’s doing that and thinking that will hide it for now but just as soon as I hide that side, I look at the other side and suddenly notice a huge lightening bolt tattoo above my left eye and then scrolly type marks that are scattered all the way down the side of my face to my jaw line

At first I’m like Whoa...WTH then I’m like...Well at least it looks cool. So I shrug and leave the bathroom when I notice out of the corner of my eye the mirrors start to do weird things like shift and change. So I look back into the one I was looking in and my face is normal again. No viens no tattoos. So I leave...cause i’m creeped out.

When I get back out to the main room theres’ different people there now that I’ve never seen before but I know them all. One is a couple with a baby. There’s something wrong with the baby. His head is way too big for his body and he can talk really well...looks like he’s about ONE but the mom is telling me he much older. He’s got a problem growing that’s why he looks so different. Then suddenly I’m in a bedroom in the house with the baby it’s just me and him now and he is walking around the bedroom while I am just standing there watching him and noting how odd he looks when he turns to me and says...I used to see ghosts in this house that we lived in in England and they are just like the ones I’m seeing in this room now. They want us to leave but they don’t want us to leave. I say you see them. He says he does. Somehow I know this is a BIG NOT GOOD cause now they’re going to kill us and we HAVE to get out. My dream turns into the same sceanio as the ep fear itself where we can’t get OUT of the house.

As I’m trying to find the door, I have people around me but they suddenly disappear. So I keep trying to find the door alone. Suddenly i see a child (not a baby) normal size in the hallway. I grab it’s hand..not sure if girl or boy and say we hurry we have to get out. The house starts to shake. The ghosts are screaming and pissed cause they’ve been discovered. I find a door open it it leads to a stairway in a partially lit exit. Stairs that are leading in a basement. They’re winding stairs and go around and round for a long time. I’m running down them really fast and see the couple with the baby ahead of me..they are screaming about getting out. I yell at them to wait for me so we don’t get seperated and can get out together...they don’t slow down but keep yelling at me directions to keep the contact with me. I finally can see them and watch them find a door. They open it I run to catch up they almost close it on me as I follow I catch it before it closes I leave and find that it leads outside to an alley. I’m out. Im really relieved. I look down because I think I’m still holding the child’s hand who I ran into but now all I’m holding is the childs shirt. The child is gone. So I’m thinking I need to go back in when i realize I’m not the one responsible for this child and I need to leave and save myself cause I’m still trapped by the house in the alley which has a chainlink gate all around it to keep you from getting away. The couple have now though..hotwired a huge truck..cause it wasn’t theirs, it belongs to the house and they are speeding towards the gate of the fence. I yell at them as they drive by to stop let me in the truck but they speed on and drive right through and break down the gate and make it so I can escape that way anyway.

End of dream....and can I add...A...weirdness.

Do with it what you will..or not. I feel better now at least! Don't KNOW WHAT the hell it means but...glad to have had a chance to air!


[> more thing... -- Teri, 09:36:18 03/10/02 Sun

Noticed in rereading above I screwed up on the face part..the big blue viens were on the right side of my face and the tattoo on the left..not that that matters...*shrugs*

Least the cheese guy didn't show up this time...Dude's annoying as hell....

Kay. Freud-me!..or not..

[> It's obvious what it means -- vampire hunter D, 09:58:57 03/10/02 Sun

it means you're crazy


[> [> Re: It's obvious what it means -- Teri, 10:54:32 03/10/02 Sun

*sticks tongue out, flings a potatoe chip at cause Im eating lunch now*

[> [> [> Oh, well, if that's your attitude... -- vampire hunter D, 18:13:36 03/10/02 Sun

[throws chips at Teri]


[> Couple of questions... -- Darby, 10:09:59 03/10/02 Sun

...did you see Dark Angel this week? That might explain the vein image. Ditto for anything Harry Potter-related for the lightning bolt. Whenever I get specific images in dreams (the rare ones I get, at least - and don't get me started on the "everybody dreams" garbage), they almost always can be connected to very recent experiences. Been scared in traffic recently?

I can't help you with the Freudian stuff. I do think that some subconscious stuff filters through our dreams, but mostly I go with the neurological theory that when we sleep, we go into "deep filing" mode, where we take recent experiences and store them permanently. My personal theory is that Rapid-Eye Movement (REM) reflects the speed of the processing, as unfocused eyes tend to look in different directions when you process different sorts of information. When that happens, we "open" all sorts of files with other info in them, which jumble out and kinda sorta get processed by our brains into bizarre narratives. Although you'd expect that there are all sorts of psychological implications, I don't think that much of what "goes on" is significant, or terribly metaphorical...

Uh oh...can a comment like that last one get me banished from the board?

[> [> Re: Couple of questions... -- Teri, 10:58:10 03/10/02 Sun

Nope didn't see it. Did see Harry though.

I like your observation and have often wondered myself if that's all dreams really are!

As for the last statement...if ya do, I'll probably be next so we could hang out! Start our own board...make it the ANYTHING goes...Angel/Buffy discussion forum...or something..*shrugs*

Speculation re: Normal Again - assumes you've seen up to OMWF -- Farstrider, 12:29:43 03/10/02 Sun

First real posting from Farstrider:


Here's what I've been thinking about Normal Again. I've been listening to my OMWF CD on the way to and from work this weekend, and I noticed some of these lines from the first song:

Every single night the same arrangement
I go out and fight the fight
Still I always feel the strange *estrangement*
Nothing here is *real*, nothing here is *right*

Then, there was her description of "Heaven":
"Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time... didn't mean anything. Nothing had form, but I was still me, you know? And I was warm, and I was loved, and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand theology or... dimensions -- any of it, really -- but I think I was in Heaven."

And the last piece: the Normal Again preview showing Buffy in a straight jacket and the whole "is she crazy or not" plotline.


It seems like Normal Again could be about either: (1) the TV show's events are real but the mental institution is not (i.e., via a spell); 2) the events in the mental institution are real but the TV show events are not; or (3) both are real and in alternate universes.
In other words, we've got crazy-Buffy and TV-Buffy, and one must be fake and one real. Or, there is only one Buffy, who crosses back and forth between TV-world and crazy-world.


Suppose, for a second, that number 2 or 3 is the right choice. When Buffy died at the end of Season 5 and went to Heaven, could she really have just gone to the mental institution, and mistaken if for Heaven?


Let's take the second scenario: suppose that for some period of time, Crazy-B was really crazy, hallucinating all the events we've seen in the movie and show: being called, first watcher being killed, moving to Sunnydale, meeting friends, geing killed by the Master, loving Angel, killing Angel, Joyce's death, etc. The narrative flow of these hallucinations kept going for some time (years, maybe?) until Buffy sacrificed herself to save Dawn and the world. Her jumping into the light (and dying) was a sufficient enough shock to jolt her out of her hallucination, or was at least enough to get her crazy mind ready to adjust to a new plane of existence: life in the crazy house. (Just like you can wake yourself up from a bad dream). And, if the crazy house people are nice (i.e., not One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), and in Buffy's new lucid state, she gets visited more by her family (including by Joyce who Buffy thought was dead), couldn't she rationally think that was heaven? (Especially in light of her description of Heaven in Bargaining?)

If you like the alternative universes theory, then Buffy's diving off the tower was the trigger to switch Buffy from TV-world to Crazy-world. Instead of dying, she ended up in the looney bin, but being primed to accept it as heaven (and seeing her Mom there) she believed it was Heaven.


OK, so how did she become "resurrected"? Well, if you like the theory that Crazy-Buffy is real and TV-Buffy is fake, then maybe Season 6 is a crazy hallucinating relapse. Or, if you like the alternative universes theory, maybe Willow's spell called Buffy back from Crazy-world to TV-world. Either way, that is why she feels estrangement from the Season 6 world, and why it is not "real" or "right."

I haven't been spoiled on Normal Again, so please don't tell me what actually happens. It's more fun to imagine what could happen . . .
Anyways, I am not sure if I am making this clear. I just had some ideas percolating. . .

[> Re: Speculation re: Normal Again - assumes you've seen up to OMWF -- Teri, 12:43:57 03/10/02 Sun

Very good ah..percs! And wanted to share that a friend of mine who wants to be in the film bus and has a mind that works like that came up with sort of the same idea..only hers was that Joss SHOULD HAVE had this ep be the very LAST Buffy ep of the whole show and in it Buffy wakes up to find the entire world of Sunnydale and Slayerdom was ALL a dream and she realizes this comes to terms gets better and eventually leaves the nuthouse and gets to be a NORMAL GIRL...just like Buffy always wanted.

[> [> Re: Sounds like The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari -- Brian, 13:48:43 03/10/02 Sun

[> [> [> Re: Sounds like The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari -- O'Cailleagh, 14:32:05 03/10/02 Sun

That does sound like the type of thing Joss would do.....was he still writing for Roseanne during the final season? 'Cos that's kinda what happened there.

[> [> [> [> Don't know but... -- Teri, 14:47:53 03/10/02 Sun

In general what happened on Roseanne in the final season...I missed it! Are you saying she woke up and the whole series was just a dream?

[> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for Roseanne final season (hehehe) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:04:12 03/10/02 Sun

Not quite.....early in the final season, Roseanne wins the lottery or something, and Dan has a heart attack (may've been the shock of winning-can't remember). He is fine after a short while. The whole family now have a much better life, being able to afford much more than before, and quickly become popular in higher social circles. Jackie falls in love with a European prince (and they get married?), Roseanne's mother announces that she is gay and has a relationship with some celebrity guest star. The original Becky returns to the cast (greeted with 'Where have you been for the last year!), and other such wackiness. In the final episode, we discover that Dan's heart attack was, in fact, fatal and when he died it sent Roseanne crazy. The entire final season was all her own delusion. Sounds very like Joss' work to me!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Roseanne final season (hehehe) -- Arya Stark, 15:45:15 03/10/02 Sun

I didn't think the last season was her delusions. She was writing a book (remember the writing desk in the basement). The last season was the book she was writing-- because it was so much better than what really happened.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Roseanne final season (hehehe) -- O'Cailleagh, 16:03:52 03/10/02 Sun

I was under the impression that she had gone crazy...wasn't that the point?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, it was a book. She was so distraught over... -- Rob, 10:27:37 03/11/02 Mon

...Dan's death that she tried to create a fantasy where everything was better. She reveals that the entire show was a book, that she made up stuff based on her real life. Jackie, she said, was a lesbian, in "real life," not her mother.

Dan's heart attack, by the way, did not occur in the final season, but the second-to-last episode in the season before it. They won the lottery after the heart attack. She created this happy ending after the heart attack, because in her book, she didn't want Dan to die.

The thing was, though, that the last episode didn't come off as brilliant or shocking to have this twist. It came off as a desperate attempt to write their way out of a crappy final season. The last year was absolutely god-awful and ridiculous, killing every last shred of character development and humor the show had had over the years. In the last episode, they want us to believe that the final year wasn't bad. It was merely a representation of a woman in mourning attempting to write a better life for herself. That is not the case. Yes, it helped the show go out with some dignity...but the last season was an embarassing excuse of a formerly great television show.

The only credit I will give the ending is continuity points. Early on in the show, we learned that Roseanne always wanted to be an author. In fact, Dan and the kids fixed up the basement for her as a writing office, but she couldn't think of anything to write about. Now, she finally did. So that writer thing didn't come out of nowhere. But still, it tried to make a melodrama out of a sitcom...a sitcom that had already turned into a parody of itself.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No, it was a book. She was so distraught over... -- O'Cailleagh, 16:00:37 03/11/02 Mon

Sorry people, my mistake...its been a few years since I saw it I suppose....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't worry...Messing up on details of the last ep of "Roseanne" is NOTHING to apologize about! ;o) -- Rob, 16:33:27 03/11/02 Mon

I should be apologizing for having seen it!


[> [> [> [> Joss was long-gone (end of S2, I think) -- Darby, 16:00:52 03/10/02 Sun

[> [> problem with that -- vampire hunter D, 17:58:21 03/10/02 Sun

I have a problem with shows that do that. To me, ending a series ore storyline by saying it was all a dream is a cop out, nad just a really cheap way out of writing a good ending. Also, it makes everything that happened before sort of meaningless. And I don't like the idea of our favorite characters like Willow, Xander, or Faith being nothing more than some sort of hallucination.

Plus, it's been done a million time already. It's just plagarizing the Wonderful Wizard of Oz.

And it makes no sense logicaly. It can't be a dream Buffy is having, because there is stuff going on that she is not around for, and she has no way of knowing about, and yet still has effects on the rest of the world. ANd what of AtS? if Buffy is a dream, then Angel should be a dream too. So if Buffy ends with it all being a dream, Angel will have to end that season, since it too is the same dream, and with the dreamer awake, it would cease to be ass well.

[> [> [> Re: problem with that -- O'Cailleagh, 18:09:37 03/10/02 Sun

Yeah, I also hate when they do that.
Interesting though that you should mention the wizard of oz thing.I've recently been thinking about various connections between the two 'verses (both concrete and tenuous...very tenuous) and have now resorted to reading as many Oz books as I can for clues! I'll let y'all know how I get on (or not).
Incidentally, it was only 'The Wizard of Oz' that made it out to be a dream(the movie). In 'The Wonderful Wizard of Oz' (the book) it was all real, and Dorothy and many others continue to travel there to this very day!

[> [> [> [> Really rambly response -- dream of the consortium, 07:58:39 03/11/02 Mon

Add me to the list of people who hate "it was all a dream" endings. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Also, add Joss - he did say something at one point about hating the "Bobby Ewing in the shower" twist.

I'll make one exception. The godawful "Newhart" ended with Bob Newhart waking up next to his wife from the original "Bob Newhart Show" many years before and saying "I had a dream we had bought this hotel in Vermont." I still find that pretty funny.

Of course, the multiple dimension storyline isn't the same thing. We already have been exposed to multiple dimensions
in Buffy with Doppelgangland and the other one in that VampWillow pair. (Not my favorite episodes, by the way, though I like VampWillow). The idea that Buffy's heaven might be a mental institution is rather interesting. I have been waiting for some sort of discussion of what being in heaven meant to Buffy - what she believes in now, what has changed about her thinking, not just the entirely understanable depression. If suddenly the idea of heaven were taken from her, would she be able to handle her depression better? Would she be able to discuss (maybe with Tara) what it had meant to her? If she were to discover that her heaven was an institution in an alternate reality, and the discovery lightened her burden, allowed her to take up this life again more fully - how impressively daring for a television show. Comfort coming from losing the idea of heaven! I grew up very religious, deeply faithful, and eventually lost faith. That experience was painful, but ultimately gave me a far more complex and meaningful world-view. It seems to me (don't want to step in something I can't really support here, but here goes anyway) that the contemporary problem is very much one of trying to build up some sort of meaningful life in the wake of the loss of faith (I know, there are many deeply faith-filled people, and I mean no offense to any of them here, but most people in our society, even those of faith, do not have the type of all-encompassing certainty of faith that people who lived before oh, say, Darwin, did.) Buffy has always been about trying to lead a moral life while constantly finding that each thing you learn teaches you that the world is more complex than you had previously understood. I would love to see the ramification of Buffy first not thinking about the possibility of heaven, then unexpectedly acheiving it, then losing it, and then realising she never had it to begin with. Good god.

[> Re: Speculation re: Normal Again - assumes you've seen up to OMWF -- Amara, 15:22:29 03/10/02 Sun

Ok, so what about the Scoobies? Are they in both dimensions? Do they know buffy in the real dimension?

[> Re: Speculation re: Normal Again - assumes you've seen up to OMWF -- sl, 10:36:42 03/11/02 Mon

wow- all this speculation without any spoilers for "Normal Again" I am impressed

Season rankings -- agent156, 13:16:34 03/10/02 Sun

OnM mentioned last night that with all the down on season 6 people that have been on the forums lately he was interested to see how season 6 ranked on the Council of Watchers site in relation to the previous seasons. Well since I was bored (and interested as well) I decided to go look at it myself and figured I'd post the findings here. Sorry OnM.

Anyway here are the average scores for the seasons in order from highest to lowest for BtVS:

Season 3 - 7.90
Season 2 - 7.65
Season 5 - 7.54
Season 6 - 7.46
Season 1 - 7.32
Season 4 - 7.22

And since I like AtS, I looked at it as well. It's results being:

Season 2 - 7.72
Season 3 - 7.70
Season 1 - 7.52

I find it rather interesting that seasons 2 and 3 of AtS rank higher than all but season 3 of BtVS. My rankings would be a bit different than these, but then I'm one of those rare people that rather likes season 4.

Any thoughts on these rankings? Oh, and the site is (sorry don't know how to linkify it) for anyone interested.

[> Re: Season rankings -- Farstrider, 13:26:53 03/10/02 Sun

I am surprised to see 3 above 2. I thought the general consensus was that 2 was the best. I haven't seen all the episodes of either season, so I dunno.
Any insight on why people love 5 but hate 4? A lot of the reasons people hated 4 were present in five too. (I.e., no Oz, Tara's relationship with Will, Riley, no more high school, etc.)


[> [> Re: Season rankings -- Belladonna, 13:40:25 03/10/02 Sun

I think most people didn't like the Initiative story line. I know I thought it wasn't that great. Adam was the most boring villain ever, IMO. Plus, the scoobies seemed to be drifting apart. Buffy was always with Riley (zzzz), Willow with Tara, Xander with Anya, and Giles was only used as comic relief, for the most part. I don't know if everyone would agree with me, but that's why I wasn't a huge fan. I didn't hate it, but it's definitely my least favorite season.

[> [> [> Re: Season rankings (slightly OT) -- parakeet, 23:21:20 03/11/02 Mon

About Adam:
Yes, he was the most boring villain ever. Unfortunately (IMO) this was necessary from his very nature. Adam had no personality and could have no personality. His personal history was brief; he was a creation of Maggie Walsh and the Initiative. Etrangere wrote a wonderful multi-part essay about Season 4, which I'm sure most of you recall; I certainly thought more about the season from that than I did when watching it (this really isn't a put-down of the season, as most things can be thought out better in retrospect). However, I can't help but feel that the character of Adam was crippled in its conception. He was the epitome of "zero"; something which might have developed into something interesting if he'd continued to exist, but he couldn't be allowed to continue to exist without destroying what was interesting in existence in the first place. In other words, he was an almost omnipotent infant.
The Master was an old school dictator, weary and wise but stultifying. Spike and Dru were dynamic anarchists (psychologically, not necessarily politically). Angelus was destruction incarnate. The Mayor was a sociopathic meglomaniac in the guise of the kindly patriarch. Faith was the abused child turned abuser. Glory was power to the point of insanity, inherently amoral.
As for Season 6: the Troika are a certain kind of intelligence, grown bored with D&D and lacking in any sense of responsibility. Spike is (now) ambiguity -- lust and personal experience vs. ascetism and nature. Willow is the importance of perspective. Buffy is the conflicting interaction of knowledge and hope. Xander and Anya are the relation between past expectations, current complexity, and future uncertainty.
That last paragraph says a lot about the nature of this season and its lack of a Big Bad, to date. It will, as others have said, be impossible to judge this season until it's over.
But I feel certain in saying that Adam, while philosophically interesting from one thread of thought, was ultimately boring. He was an action hero but a dramatist's nightmare.

[> [> [> [> Re: Season rankings (slightly OT) -- parakeet, 23:44:27 03/11/02 Mon

When I said that Adam was an action hero, I meant action anti-hero.

[> [> [> [> Sorry--some spoilers thru Hell's Bells in above posts -- parakeet, 23:55:10 03/11/02 Mon

Now I think I need to stop responding to my own posts and go to bed.

[> [> Re: Season rankings -- Rattletrap, 14:02:16 03/10/02 Sun

"I am surprised to see 3 above 2. I thought the general consensus was that 2 was the best."

Many people might say so. While I think the 2nd 1/2 of S2 had some of the best episodes of in the history of the series, the 1st 1/2 had some of the worst. S3 produced few episodes with the brilliance of "Passion," but the quality was much more consistently high.

Just my $.02


[> [> [> Re: Season rankings -- Sophist, 15:31:31 03/10/02 Sun

I agree about the second half of S2. I think S4 suffers for the opposite reason: the first half was excellent, but the Intiative theme petered out in the second half, leaving an overall weak impression.

[> [> [> [> Re: Season rankings -- Rattletrap, 05:28:45 03/11/02 Mon

No argument on that. I still like S4 a little better than S1, and there were some great episodes, but the Adam story just didn't quite work for me.

[> Re: Season rankings -- Dochawk, 16:03:59 03/10/02 Sun

its funny agent, when we were chatting last night I started to do the same thing, but I was looking towards a median rather than a mean, since one bad episode will bring a season down (how many were in the top quintile, how many in the bottom) but then I do alot of statistics.

And don't forget, that the last 5 episodes of each season but 4 were considered the height of the arcs. Therefore, Season 6 is no longer near settled.

[> [> Re: Season rankings -- zargon, 16:27:03 03/10/02 Sun

Well, speaking as someone who gets to see S2 and S3 for the first time, simultaneously with each other and S6, for me, S3 has an overall consistency and well, heck, just tons of "on the edge of the couch" moments. Even knowing that Angel leaves at the end of S3, every moment for me was a suprise: Faith shows up; Angel returns from Hell; "Oz ate someone last night"; Jenny, forgiveness, and snow in "Amends"; Xander gets to be a hero in "The Zeppo", Faith turns to the dark side and starts to take Buffy with her; the "Class Protector" award at the Prom, the "heartbreaking sewer talk", the scoobies unite with the rest of their class and the Mayor goes down; Angel feeding off of Buffy. All were emotionally gripping and thought-provoking in a way I haven't seen so far in S2 (I'm only up to "Bad Eggs") or S6. In an interview, Joss said something about with BtVS, he was trying for "real emotions + rocket launchers", and for me, that's every ep of S3.

[> [> Re: Season rankings -- agent156, 16:38:14 03/10/02 Sun

Yeah there are lots of ways you could compare the different seasons. I just used the average because after I had started doing some work of my own on the numbers I noticed that the site already had the averages for each season. And so I just took the easy way out and used those. :)

And as for season 4 I feel that it ended very strongly. The last 4 episodes of it were all great in my opinion, with the finale "Restless" being my favorite BtVS episode of all. But then, like I said, I'm just weird like that.

[> [> [> Re: Season rankings -- zargon, 17:11:52 03/10/02 Sun

Perhaps I should add I haven't seem BtVS S4 or S5 or AtS S1 or S2. However, for me, BtVS S6 has been pretty yawn-worthy and contains the worst ep I have ever seen, "DMP", followed closely by "OaFA". While AtS S3 may have major plotholes, it at least has action, suspense, drama, and occasionally great dialouge, and contiguous charcter development. I find all these things missing from BtVS S6.

[> [> [> [> Lets not forget its all subjective here... -- AngelVSAngelus, 21:44:40 03/10/02 Sun

I don't know if there's any real objective way to suggest completely which season is better than others. Alot of it is just personal aesthetic taste. I know I enjoy Season 3 the most because of its darker tone. The season as a whole just had this ominous sense to it, a noir feel of sorts. The latter half of Season two gave me that sort of feeling as well, and was even more effective for me emotionally, but that wasn't season 2's entirety, and that's pretty much the deciding factor for me.
Season four isn't one of my fav's because it seems almost too whimsical to me. There were several more comedically themed episodes in four than I remember being in most of the others, and that's just never been my favorite thing.
Its almost the same with Angel. I, contrary to like EVERYONE that I've heard speak on the subject, like the whole period between Redefinition and Epiphany better than any of the Pylean portion of season two. I enjoyed the dark spot Angel's character was in and the overall tone of hopelessness.
Its odd that I enjoy that sort of dark tone but find myself feeling extremely uncomfortable with some of the darkness of pretty much everything after The Body. Its a different sort of dark feeling, more of a mourning than ominious tone. I still enjoy watching the show, but it becomes an almost masochistic act to view episodes. I get the tummy rumblings :)

[> Again, I'll say it...I don't think it's fair to rank Season Six yet... -- Rob, 12:05:46 03/11/02 Mon

How can we possibly know how good a season is until the end? The height of a "Buffy" season has always proven to be the last five or so episodes. That is when all the threads from earlier in the year come together and build towards a huge ending. So therefore, I would say that Six shouldn't even be ranked yet.

Out of the others, I'd rank it, in order, from my personal subjective opinion, starting with the best. (I won't say best to worst, because none are "worst" in my opinion, just perhaps weaker, or not as good, in comparison to the others.)

1. Season Five
2. Season Four
3. Season Three
4. Season Two
5. Season One

Yes, in exact descending order! I think the show has improved every year from the year before. At the time of Season Four's airing, I was absolutely in love with it. I wasn't on-line and didn't even know there was negative response to it. And that negative response doesn't change my opinion at all. Same with Season Six. I love it so far, and it's poised, in my book, to rank as #1 again, or at the least, #2. At this point, I will admit that, though, I love the sixth season, I liked the Season Five epic Key/Dawn/Glory, etc arc better. But my opinion could always change...


[> [> I have no idea how I would rank them -- matching mole, 13:41:11 03/11/02 Mon

I love seasons 1 through 3 which are, comparatively speaking, fairly similar. Each one has strengths that the others lack as well as unique weaknesses. Season 1 has a less developed overall plot but it has freshness and the strong sense of place in Sunnydale High and all the delightful satirical commentary on teenage existence and the wonderful mixture of the realistic and surrealistic. Season 2 continues in the excellent tradition of season 1 without the same strong grounding in high school life (which was probably inevitable) but has a much better season level plot. Season 3 has the greatest villain in the show's history and probably the largest number of absolutely brilliant stand alone episodes. However the deft, light-handed touch with personal relationships seen in seasons 1 and 2 began to seem a little heavier. So I would pretty much rate the three seasons as being equal or at least unrankable with respect to one another.

I think Rob is right (not here but in another thread) in comparing the more recent Buffy seasons to novels. Season level plot has become increasingly important with time. For me that is a mixed blessing. I kind of like the more sprawling structure of the earlier seasons which gives the writers lots of time/space to explore other ideas in stand-alones. I guess I just have a short attention span. On the other hand the season as novel does allow for the exploration of more complicated ideas.

Season 4 seems like a noble first attempt at the season-novel. It has a broader perspective than the earlier seasons which is appropriate given the Scooby's graduation. There's lots of good stuff in the season, excellent individual episodes, lots of symbolism, and of course 'Restless' at the end. However I felt that the main plot of the season, while admittedly more ambitious, was not nearly as successfully carried the plots of S2 and S3. Also the dynamic tension between the 'real' world and the demons that was such a key component of much of S1-S3 seemed to fade away after the first few episodes of S4. I guess, if forced, I would rank this season as somewhat lower than the first three but not much.

The only season I have an easy time ranking is season 5. This is kind of ironic because season 5, while not everyone's absolute favourite, seems to be the one season that everyone has a pretty favourable opinion of. Everyone except me. I think season 5 is a much more successful season-novel than season 4. It is more tightly constructed and moves urgently to a grand finale. Unfortunately it is a novel that, while I can admire its construction and say fine craftmanship ME, is just not to my taste at all. I guess I'm just not a fan of the large scale epic. I like Fellowship of the Ring more than Return of the King. When I read comics I liked Spiderman a lot better than the Fantastic Four. Big cosmic clashes, unless they're done for comic effect as in Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams just don't do it for me. Also the show seemed to lose a lot of its humour and sense of place in season 5. For me, definitely the worst season.

Season 6 is a different kettle of fish altogether. I didn't much care for the first few episodes which seemed to be a continuation of season 5 (re-viewing them has been more satisfactory) but since then it has been very interesting but in a different way than any of the other seasons. I couldn't even begin to rank it in relation to the first three seasons. So many things that I liked about seasons 1-3 are gone in season 6 but they have been replaced by other very different things (and a return to realism, although of a very different kind). It's as if you asked me to rank seasons of The Simpsons intermixed with seasons of Babylon 5 (both shows that I esteem highly). I just can't do it.

To summarize.

S1, S2, S3 - threeway tie

S4 - ranked slightly below them

S5 - definitely at the bottom.

S6 - no basis for comparison (although I do like it a lot better than S5).

As for Angel, seasons 2 and 3 (so far) seem on par with BtVS seasons 1-3. The structure of the show is a little different, without the strong seasonal storylines but many of the qualities that appealed to me in the early BtVS are there in AtS. Season 1 of AtS was not quite as good, I think mostly because the constant crossovers from BtVS kept delaying the show setting its own distinctive tone. I really like the changes in mood from incredibly grim to goofy in the span of an episode or two that the show seems to be able to pull off so effortlessly. I'm really anxious to see what happens in the rest of AtS S3 - could be the greatest season yet.

I realize that I may have partly contradicted myself. I say about S5 Buffy that I don't like big cosmic clashes while Angel is essentially one big long cosmic clash. I'll have to think about it but I will say that this idea of Angel being the chosen champion of the PTB in some great struggle is one of the least appealing things about the show. I have hope that ME will turn this on its head just like they did Angel's despair last season and Buffy's return from the dead.

[> [> It _is_ very difficult to rank the seasons. -- Ixchel, 14:37:33 03/11/02 Mon

Each one offers another aspect of BtVS, speaks to the viewer (or at least to me) in a different way.

I suppose, if I had to, I would go with Rob's descending order ranking (probably not for the same reasons though).

Also, I definitely agree with Rob that season 6 can't even be subjectively ranked until the finale.


[> [> Re: Again, I'll say it...I don't think it's fair to rank Season Six yet... -- agent156, 15:13:45 03/11/02 Mon

Obviously season 6 can't be accuratley ranked until the season has run in full, but the entire point of checking the rankings was to see where it currently stands with fans. There have been quite a few posters on this board and others that have been saying how bad they feel the season has been and such, and in a chat a couple days ago when OnM mentioned that he was tempted to look at the ratings to get a better idea of how the season is really being seen quality-wise so far, I went to the site myself to have a look. I wouldn't rank it yet either, but that wasn't the point behind this check.

[> [> I rank them in descending order too -- bienbizare, 09:25:23 03/12/02 Tue

I'm a new viewer who caught up w/ seasons 1,2,3,4 and half of 5 thanks to FX. Having seen all the eps for the first time in such a rapid succession, I really felt a huge growth as the seasons went on. Although it's very difficult for me to choose between seasons 3, 4, and 5, because that's when I really became a Buffy fanatic.

More Sam suspicion: a question (As You Were spoilers) -- Darby, 13:51:39 03/10/02 Sun

So Sam is talking to Buffy about her introduction to the demon world (I just watched the ep again - going to Hell's Bells after this post).

Her infirmary (why was the fact that she's a doctor omitted from the final version?) was wiped out in Central America by...what? Pauses, looks at Buffy. "...I didn't know what they were."

Why? She must know now, and surely she'd expect the Slayer to be familiar with whatever they were. Why hesitate and avoid naming them?

Possibility 1: It's a lie, and she was afraid that too much detail would undermine it. Great for the conspiracy theorists among us.

Possibility 2: There's a connection between Buffy and whatever it was that she did not want to get into (that sounds kinda like a conspiracy, too, doesn't it?).

Possibility 3: Sloppy writing. But if you knew now what something was, and were talking about it to an expert, would you talk about it that way?

Other possibilities?

[> Re: More Sam suspicion: a question (As You Were spoilers) -- Teri, 14:25:53 03/10/02 Sun

Could of been a red herring. Like Doc saying he'd seen Spike before but with dark hair playing dominoes on the corner in "Forever" last year? PTB never went anywhere with it but the had us all specing for days and DAYS on the dang thing...

Think they like to do that do us, make us crazy, like some of us even need help in that area! *points to self*

[> [> just you wait . . . -- Anne, 14:31:17 03/10/02 Sun

Yeah, and wouldn't it be a scream if in "Normal Again" we saw Spike with dark hair playing dominoes on the corner?

[> [> [> Oh stop it! -- Teri, 14:45:42 03/10/02 Sun

Now I'm going to have to drag it out and spec all over again....

[> [> Re: More Sam suspicion: a question (As You Were spoilers) -- sl, 10:30:54 03/11/02 Mon

yea- and watch them never explain the Halfrek/ William coment!!- those ohhhhhh

OT: Mercedes McNab on Boston Public tomorrow. -- Mogera, 16:42:28 03/10/02 Sun

[> Thanks much! VCR set! -- Earl Allison, 04:47:09 03/11/02 Mon

Ugh, I hate BP, but since I adore Mercedes .... I must suffer :)

Thanks for the heads-up!

Take it and run.

[> Anyone else here see her on "Dawson's Creek"? Awful episode, as usual, but she was great! -- Rob, 12:07:48 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> I did, and THAT TIME my VCR died -- did you tape it? -- Earl Allison, 13:54:50 03/11/02 Mon

The architecture of a BtVS and AtS season (mildly spoilerish up until Hell's Bells and Sleep Tight) -- JBone, 17:51:59 03/10/02 Sun

I've started thinking about how each season of BtVS has an episode or two about two-thirds through the season where this is such a change in tone and direction of the series where it can never be the same again. I'd exclude Season 1, since that was basically a half season, but you can make the argument that the episode Angel was that shift in Season 1.

Season 2: Surprise/Innocence - This was just a little over halfway through the season, but this is where the big cataclysmic change took place. Angel turns evil after Buffy schlups him. It's a whole new show that can never go back to what happened earlier in the show.

Season 3: Bad Girls/Consequences - This is were Faith chooses to change sides. Not as big as Angel going evil, especially since the SG doesn't find out for another few episodes, but the ground has definitely shifted.

Season 4: The I in Team/Goodbye Iowa - This season is a little more difficult since the show seemed to be trying to reinvent itself all season long. I would also consider the episode New Moon Rising, since this is where Riley actually left the Initiative. But I going to go with the episodes that introduce us to Adam and the existence of Maggie Walsh's evil plans for Buffy, Riley, and the human and demon populations. The shift's effectiveness is hurt somewhat by the return of Faith in the next two episodes and Jonathon's spell in the following episode.

Season 5: The Body - This is an easy one. The whole tone of the show changed, and arguably is still stuck in a grieving mode since Joyce's death.

Without knowing what is coming up in Normal Again, I think we may have seen the shift in Hell's Bells. This season is a lot like Season 4 in the way that the big bad is being defined late (or maybe not at all?) in the season. And it's also the opposite of Season 4 in the way that the show almost defies any invention outside of Buffy's struggle with her resurrection. So what is the big bad in Season 6? From what I can guess, it may be that we are our own worst enemies. Back to HB, the way we think of who and where Xander and Anya were going took sharp turns. Sharp enough to make me wonder, what don't we know? (No spoilers please.) A shoe dropped here, and we're grasping to figure out what it was. For me anyway, HB just introduced a hell of a lot of questions while answering none. NA probably will be the same way. So in that way, I'm probably jumping the gun a little bit here. But a relationship that has been built since being introduced at the end of Season 3 blowing up like that signals a shift to me.

To briefly comment on AtS, It seems that they are doing a 3 season in one thing the last couple of years. Last year, up until Reunion was one, Redefinition through Reprise was another, and Epiphany through TNPLPG is the last. Same thing this year. Up until Lullaby is one season, Dad through Sleep Tight is another, and who knows what's left for this year.

[> Tone Change -- Rand, 19:29:10 03/10/02 Sun

I've noticed too, though I think that "Dead Things" or "Wrecked" would fit more into the change of tone. Though it is still hard to say without the season being over yet.

[> [> Actually, I agree with HB being the season's turning point, because... -- Rob, 11:57:54 03/11/02 Mon

...if you are not privy to spoilers, as I am not, this is the point at which, I have not a clue what will happen. A lot of the mid-season's events could have been guessed at...Willow giving up on magic, Spike and Buffy eventually breaking up...but the Xander/Anya breakup was not only unexpected, but leaves us at a total impasse. "Where do we go from here?" I believe was never more significant than in this episode. We stand at the brink of what I predict will be a killer, amazing final third of the season. It has all the makings for it...the return of mythology from the past seasons of the show with D'Hoffryn and his offer to Anya...the possibility of a Willow/Tara reunion...the threat of the Evil Trio, which became very serious once we saw "Dead Things"...the very intriguing promos for "Normal Again"...and seven, very confused, saddened Scoobies.

Actually, come to think of it, I would classify "Dead Things" as the season's shift-in-tone episode, and "Hell's Bells" at the point-of-no-return episode, where things are set in motion after which nothing will ever be the same.

Reevaluating the sixth season, I will state right here and now that I think it may turn out to be the show's finest by the end of the year. I will have to see the last third of the season to know for sure, of course. I rewatched every episode this year up to "Hell's Bells" and I've noticed links and allusions that I didn't earlier this year. It is much more tightly-written than I had thought. As usual, what I thought might be a slump the first time I saw it, turns out to be very good when seen again, with the later events taken into consideration. This further reestablishes for me the idea that "Buffy" is no longer an episodic show, but a novel for television, with each week being another chapter in one long, brilliant story.

[> [> [> Re: Actually, I agree with HB being the season's turning point, because... -- DEN, 12:25:50 03/11/02 Mon

Rob, I notice the same thing about seasons 4 and 5. Seen in the foreshortened way impelled by the FX reruns, they are MUCH tighter and MUCH more coherent than they seemed at the time--a LOT less waste motion. That seems to support your notion of a "TV novel," rather than an episodic show. "Babylon 5" followed the same pattern, but no one's replicated it as successfully as BtVS.

[> Re: The architecture of a BtVS season (mildly spoilerish up until Hell's Bells and Sleep Tight) -- leslie, 15:01:04 03/11/02 Mon

"Angel turns evil after Buffy schlups him."

Not to get pedantic, but I believe the proper term here is "schtup."

Anyway, Hell's Bell's seemed very much to parallel "Death" in that it was the episode in which the trauma that we might have seen coming and thought was averted showed up after all. I still remember the shot of Joyce being wheeled into surgery and thinking "Shit, she really isn't going to make it," and being astonished when she did. And then just when I'd gotten used to it, Bam!

[> [> And certainly not the same as "schlep" -- Sophist, 16:28:29 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> Although a "shtup" can be a "schlep"...sometimes...Heh heh -- Rob, 10:27:35 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Re: The architecture of a BtVS season (mildly spoilerish up until Hell's Bells and Sleep Tight) -- JBone, 16:29:37 03/11/02 Mon

Not to get pedantic, but I believe the proper term here is "schtup."

Thanks, I was trying to say something without actually saying it. That's something I wish we wouldn't have to do, but, people get offended. So I tried to use a word I wasn't very familiar with. While I'm on the subject of words, I'm very impressed by the use of pedantic. I don't think using that one would have ever crossed my mind.

[> [> [> Re: The architecture of a BtVS season (mildly spoilerish up until Hell's Bells and Sleep Tight) -- leslie, 11:16:08 03/12/02 Tue

"Thanks, I was trying to say something without actually saying it. That's something I wish we wouldn't have to do, but, people get offended."

Ah, in that case, I think the phrase you were looking for was "making sweet love" in SMG's best throbbingly faux-innocent "I'm reverting to my Hemery High days" tone of voice.

Giles the "Ripper" -- Kyle, 19:37:06 03/10/02 Sun

Ok...I know where the nickname came from. He recieved it in his youth when he was rebellious and stuff, dabbling in black magic, conjuring up that demon, yada, yada, yada. But, can anyone tell me, or is there ANY info. out there on WHY they call him "Ripper". What does the nickname mean?

[> Re: Giles the "Ripper" -- NightRepair, 20:18:32 03/10/02 Sun

I'm sure there are lots of deep dark reasons why he's called Ripper, but one that immediately springs to mind for me is that Giles' first name is 'Rupert'. Rupert/Ripper - quite similar sounding names. Lots of nicknames come from peoples' real names. Just a thought.

[> [> ANd some nicknames come from a person's facial moisturizer :-) -- vampire hunter D, 11:57:06 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> oh, that's cute vhD, very cute! -- NightRepair, 18:56:49 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> & you should know what you're talking about... -- anom, 19:31:02 03/11/02 Mon

...NightRipper! @>)

[> [> Re: Giles the "Ripper" -- Kyle, 19:59:51 03/11/02 Mon

Yeah, thought of that one myself. But I'm not so sure. The way Ethan calls him "Ripper" at times just seems like it means something more.

[> [> [> Re: Giles the "Ripper" -- JM, 07:44:45 03/12/02 Tue

Kyle, I think the obvious first reference that comes to mind, especially because they are British, is Jack the Ripper. Which when you think of it is on the level of distastefulness of calling a band Marilyn Manson. In "Halloween," it draws a nice contrast between who Giles was and who he is now. The man standing in Ethan's shop with the crass knickname and the murderous gleam in his eye is the same man who half-an-hour earlier had difficulty directly alluding to the fact that the only ghost Willow resembled was that of a lady of the night.

When Joyce in "Band Candy" asks why he's called that, Giles responds with a sly "Wouldn't you like to know." Kind of made me think later how Spike's monikers turned out to be somewhat inflated self-advertisement. Wouldn't put that past a self-centered young man methodically and thoroughly rebelling. (Side note: Since the adults were reverting to teenagers, I took "Bandy Candy" to also allude to the fact that Giles' may have whitewashed his tale to Buffy in "Dark Age." I suspect his delinquent behavior began earlier than university, he just wasn't getting caught or dropping out until Oxford.)

"Bandy Candy" was also a hint of just how thuggish and reckless Giles' Ripper stage was. He breaks, enters, and steals, and seriously assaults a police officer. And then proceeds to steal his weapon and handcuffs. We know from "Gingerbread" he can pick locks and from "Dead Man's Party" that he can hotwire cars, quickly, I might add. I'd suspect "that worst lot that would have me" were fairly casual about resorting to serious property crime to support their magic and other habits. And being so close to the criminal underbelly, there was probably a fair bit of violence in their lives. A couple of good fights involving knives and spilled blood and "Ripper" would be the obvious knickname to replace the much poncier sounding "Rupert." Last but not least "Ripper" is a much better knickname than "Rupy" (TM Annya).

And about Ethan meaning more. IMO Ethan always mean more than what he's saying out load to Giles. But then everyone already knows what I think the subtext in that relationship is. For Ethan, using that name is him staking a claim on Giles' time and attention. It's a reminder that he knows things about Giles that other people in his life don't. It's a reference to a shared time in their life, when Giles was much more like Ethan than he ever wants to admit. It's a reminder that Giles' can't undo the past, and it's a challenge that perhaps he hasn't changed as much as he thinks. It's also a reminder that Ethan's got dirt on him; I'm sure there are many more stories than just Eyghon that Giles would prefer Buffy never heard. And Ethan's tactic of laying claim to Giles is not ineffective. In "Dark Age" and "New Man," Giles was quite insistent in dealing with the problem on his own, trying to keep his past out of his present with disastrous results.

[> [> [> [> Ripper's Dark History -- Whisper2AScream, 13:08:43 03/12/02 Tue

They're probably going to into this more on Giles' show. However, don't forget something else. In the Gift, deranged-state Tara called him a "killer." Which of course, proved to be foreshadowing.
From the Gift transcript:

GILES: Can you move?
BEN: Need a ... a minute. She could've killed me.
GILES: No she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later Glory will re-emerge, and ... make Buffy pay for that mercy. And the world with her. Buffy even knows that... (reaches into his pocket, takes out his glasses) and still she couldn't take a human life.

Shot of Ben listening.

GILES: She's a hero, you see. (Giles puts his glasses on) She's not like us.
BEN: Us?

Giles suddenly reaches down and puts his hand over Ben's nose and mouth, holding them shut. Ben struggles weakly as Giles keeps him still. Giles keeps his calm expression throughout.

In other words, Ben wasn't the first person Giles has killed. I think Ripper means exactly what it means. He got into a fight, and ripped somebody up literally. We seen how absolutely violent, and almost bloodthirsty he can get when he's angry. In Band Candy, his teenaged self have to be talked out of shooting Ethan in the head by Buffy. He's capable of killing, and Ethan knows that well. Hence reminding him that no, he's not really one of the good guys, he's just pretending.

[> OR - might it just allude to Giles' teenage solution to removing the tops off teabag boxes ;-) -- Nevermore, 09:32:06 03/12/02 Tue

A couple of questions re. OMWF -- NightRepair, 20:25:10 03/10/02 Sun

OMWF wont be screened here in Australia for a few more weeks, but I'm already getting very excited about it! I have a couple of questions I was hoping someone could help me with.

I was wondering if the singing that is done in the episode actually features the voices of the actors (or did they have singing doubles)?

A few posts down 'Farstrider' wrote something about listening to the OMWF CD. I am just curious to know if there is a CD of the music and where I could get one from.

Thanks guys.

[> Re: A couple of questions re. OMWF -- Cactus Watcher, 20:36:15 03/10/02 Sun

Everybody seems to have sung for themselves. Amber Benson's singing voice is the only one that is a little surprising. It's better than I expected, even though I like her speaking voice.

[> Re: A couple of answers re. OMWF -- Sophist, 20:39:16 03/10/02 Sun

All the actors sang their own songs. The voices vary in quality, but I think everyone agrees ASH and AB were excellent.

There is no officially released CD. However, the songs can be downloaded from the internet and burned to a CD.

[> [> Joss has said, though, that a CD is in the works.. -- Rob, 22:07:43 03/10/02 Sun

It's just delayed because of rights and such stuff. Copyright stuff can get really complicated...

I would also like to add that, yes, AB and ASH were the most exceptional singers, but I also very much enjoyed Emma Caulfield's voice, not as classically good as theirs, but still very pleasant to listen to, as was SMG.


[> [> [> Re: Joss has said, though, that a CD is in the works.. -- skpe, 06:44:00 03/11/02 Mon

I agree. It allso tickeled me that ME even had 2 of the producers (daved fury,marti nixion) sing a few lines

[> Re: A couple of questions re. OMWF -- Farstrider, 00:25:30 03/11/02 Mon

I downloaded and burned them onto a CD for car listening.
The voices range from really good (ASH, Marsters) to pretty good (Amber Benson) to really bad (Hanigan). The quality of Emma and Nicky's voices don't matter so much. I was surprised and impressed by SMG's voice.

[> Re: A couple of questions re. OMWF -- Dochawk, 11:43:13 03/11/02 Mon


Email me privately and I'll help you with the CD.


Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- Methodica, 20:27:36 03/10/02 Sun

I always in a huge battle with my friends (male) who hate everything about Buffy. They constantly cut it up and say the acting, dialog and plot of the show is no different then something like Xena. However they base this on never really watching a few episode and there dislike of it is more or less based on the name of the show (something we all have to live with)

When ever we get into an urgument about the show I usally defend it with episodes done by Joss in a style unique or uncommon in the telivision industry. Below is my list of eposides where I think Joss has set himself apart and truely made Buffy a unique and interesting show. I curious to know what everyone else thinks is a Unquie episode by Joss and Co.

*Full Episodes*
Restless (Dialog, Metaphore and foreshadowing make it my fav episode)
Hush (Episode with more or less no dialog)
The Body (relistic protrail of Death, no music and distant)
Once More with Feeling (Musical Episode)

*Part Episodes*
Fool For Love (1970's Spike talking to Buffy through flash back)

*Good Episodes with Unique Ideas*
Passion (The voice of was interesting, The way in which Jenny killed and shown to Giles still give me a chill)
Tabula Rasa (The tie in with Restless and Angel was done very well)

[> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- Nos, 21:01:19 03/10/02 Sun

It's true that Joss does things no other show ever even thought of doing. Hush being one of the biggest examples. I mean, yes, the musical was amazing, but other shows HAVE done that...(even Xena). Hush was standout. An episode without talking. Never been done, to my knowladge....

[> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:20:30 03/11/02 Mon

The closest thing I can think of to Hush was actually a football game broadcast on TV without any play-by-play or commentary. I think it was in the early 1980's, but it might have been earlier. It was the first time the score and the time-left-play was shown most of the time during any broadcast game. As I recall, the down-and-distance was not shown on screen, and instant replay was not as common after every play. The viewers liked it well enough, although they had to pay more attention to what was going on. The network decided it was a bad idea, since there was no way to plug its other shows during the game except with visual overlays which the fans objected to more than having the annoucers just talk about it. Overlays are routine now, but thanks to technology developed with computers later during the 1980's they aren't as obtrustive.

[> [> [> Ernie Kovacs -- Cactus Watcher, 07:40:03 03/12/02 Tue

In an interesting piece of timing, I read a review of a DVD "The Best of Ernie Kovacs," this morning. Kovacs, for those too young to remember, was a great comedian of the 1950's who often spent more effort on doing experiments in comedy than in being funny. He pushed the limits of what the censors of his day would allow in a lot of areas. One of the things he tried was a full half- hour episode of his TV show with no dialogue only sound effects.

Incidentally, the DVD according to the reviewer is quite bad, poorly edited and repetitive.

[> [> I thought Hush was an homage to German Expressionist film? -- Caroline, 10:17:56 03/11/02 Mon

[> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- leslie, 11:01:07 03/11/02 Mon

"*Part Episodes*
Fool For Love (1970's Spike talking to Buffy through flash back)"

I'd go further, with the whole episode leading up to talking through the flash-back. The more I look at this episode, the more convinced I am that what we, the audience, see of William is NOT what Spike is narrating to Buffy (and indeed, he specifically refers to what he is doing as "narrating"). I think what we are seeing is his own flash-backs to his real life--the interior of his mind, not the words that Buffy is hearing. But what Spike narrates comes closer and closer to his memories as the episode progresses. For instance, I don't think the story of how he turned into a vampire is very close to what he narrates--maybe the outline of the facts, but not the spin he gives them. (And therefore, I would argue, Buffy's finally telling Spike that he is "beneath her" is not a deliberate--and incredibly cruel--repetition of Cecily's words but an unconscious, spontaneous reaction that brings Spike exactly back to where he was when he turned into a vampire--the cycle beginning over again, and which way will it turn this time?) The narration of killing his first slayer is closer but not identical--what the audience sees, for instance, is that holy shit YES he got off on killing her--there is no necessity for Buffy to react with "You mean you got off on killing her?" as though this is some subtext that *she* is making explicit. Finally, the narration and the memory of killing the second slayer *are* identical, and that is shown by his addressing her within the flash-back. And that, I think, is one of the most brilliant structuring devices I have ever seen on television.

[> [> Completely agree -- Sophist, 12:36:23 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 13:13:00 03/11/02 Mon

Mostly agree except that when Buffy calls Spike "William" you get the sense that she has some idea of what his human personality was like (probably the starry-eyed romantic though, and less the ineffectual wimp). So Spike must have given her something resembling the truth in his description of his initiation into the dark.

[> [> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- leslie, 14:06:01 03/11/02 Mon

Oh, I agree he told her *something*--though she already knew he was "William the Bloody," so should have guessed that William was his mortal name (I mean, someone who calls himself "Spike" isn't going to pick "William" as his new tough-guy vampire name, even with a "bloody" attached to it). I just think that we have to be really aware of the difference between what one audience (us) sees and another (Buffy) hears. Another point for the disjunction between the two--Spike commences the tale of his new vampire life by telling her that he "got himself a gang" in a tone of voice that clearly implies he's the leader of the pack, but what we see is the Darla-Angelus-Dru-Spike family in which he is, again clearly, low man on the totem pole and the resident "boy." And again, we have seen all along what Spike's status in this family really is, but Buffy has seen almost nothing of it--she only encounters the whole group (or at least Angelus, Dru, and Spike) in battle situations, which are by necessity fairly crude on the sophisticated- interpersonal-interaction-analysis scale. She's probably guessed some of it from what Angel has said, but she doesn't know it from her own experience. It is yet another narration.

[> [> [> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- juliaabra, 18:01:07 03/11/02 Mon

"Spike commences the tale of his new vampire life by telling her that he "got himself a gang" in a tone of voice that clearly implies he's the leader of the pack, but what we see is the Darla-Angelus-Dru-Spike family in which he is, again clearly, low man on the totem pole and the resident 'boy.'"

Yes, and the fact that his narration to Buffy is different from what we see is especially clear from Spike's voiceover "I've always been bad..." and our visual of William the Bloody Awful Poet asking the servant for "a word that means gleaming." What I wouldn't give to hear what Spike actually tells Buffy in the bar and not what we see.

[> [> [> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- Eric, 19:02:29 03/11/02 Mon

Very good. It also fits with Spike's talk about "being Dracula's rival" and dismissing Drac's very effective spells as trivial gypsy magic. But if you listen carefully to the conversations in the Victorian drawing room, you can hear prophetic words from "William the Bloody's" first victim.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Unique Episodes (Filming and Scripting) -- leslie, 20:08:34 03/11/02 Mon

Incidentally, watching the Buffybot episode on FX this evening and being reminded that Spike "wrote" the dialog in her programs, all I could think was "126 years and he's *still* a bloody awful writer--that really must be living hell."

St Joan, St Theresa and Buffy - *Spoilers* for Normal Again -- Rahael, 07:00:51 03/11/02 Mon

Some weeks ago, in response to a question by Rufus re the significance of the imagery of St Theresa and St Joan in Season 6, I suggested that one connection (among many) between them was that they were all suspected of having some mental abnormality that caused them to see their visions of God, and in the case of Theresa, to experience religious ecstasy. Some believe that Theresa and St Joan really underwent mystical experiences, others that they had temporal lobe epilepsy. I also speculated that the rumour that the writers had been misleading us about a storyline could be the 'Buffy in heaven' idea.

Now in Normal Again,we see that the Buffy who is institutionalised is mentally ill, and that the vision of heaven that Sunnydale Buffy experiences is equated in the other reality as a brief emergence into 'normality'. Seeing this ep, I think they question the idea that Buffy must have been in heaven, but I don't think they conclusively scotch it. They seem to leave it up to us.

The ep's events, and its ambiguous title - 'Normal Again' seems to leave things up in the air - which is the real reality?

Normal Again also seems to tie into the idea of the social construction of reality that comes up in Life Serial. The writers also seem to acknowledge a lot of the criticism of Season 6 by some - boring, mundane and the lack of a good enemy.

I can't wait to see this ep, and it seems very reminiscent of Philip K Dick to me.......

I just wondered what others thought of events of this ep - how does this tie into the overall themes of this season? I still need to digest the wildfeeds I've read.

[> Re: St Joan, St Theresa and Buffy - *Spoilers* for Normal Again -- Ixchel, 17:59:22 03/11/02 Mon

I'm trying to stay away from the wildfeeds, so I can't comment about the episode yet, but I have wondered about the references to these two saints. Maybe the following observations were discussed when TR and LS each first aired, if so I apologize.

I seem to remember it being suggested that St. Joan had schizophrenia, which can cause auditory hallucinations (she thought God spoke to her). Buffy did experience something similar to auditory hallucinations in her encounter with the timeshifting demons in DT (the whispering) and Anya even says directly that exposure to these demons causes hallucinations. Other characteristics of schizophrenia are feelings of loss of identity, and withdrawn and apathetic behavior (this does seem like Buffy in season 6). Perhaps this ties in with a theme of mental distress, such as Buffy's obvious depression?

As for St. Theresa, I found it curious that the reference is the Bernini sculpture which has sexual overtones. Both the angel which seems more like Eros (with his pointing arrow) rather than a biblical seraphim, and of course, St. Theresa's clothes and facial expression are suggestive of orgasm. This may tie into Buffy's more sexual nature this season, and at the same time reference both "heaven" and mental disfunction.

Interesting question, I'm also looking forward to this episode.


[> [> Lies, fantasy and reality -- Rahael, 04:01:16 03/12/02 Tue

Yes, and it’s also interesting that the Joan reference comes in the episode where Buffy’s foray into forgetfulness allows her to see her life more joyfully and in a less complicated way.

I wonder if it could be linked into the idea that Sunnydale is built on lies, where most of the residents pretend they can’t see the vampires and other beasties “He’s got a skin complaint” “they are circus people” “it’s a bear!”.

The Scoobies were the people who were always able to look at the truth unflinchingly. Now in Season 6, the writers are playing around with the idea that well, Sunnydale may not be able to face the truth, but these are characters in a tv show, and the whole thing is a fantasy.

But the more serious message is that there are other ways to deny reality, other ways to ‘escape’ the harshness and bleakness of life – through sex, drinking, magic/drugs, denial, self pity and selfishness. Even the Scoobies are vulnerable. And again, I return to Glory’s words about how all human beings are just seeking some way out of existence. They are given brains, but they saturate it with drugs; they are given life, and yet they try to escape from their own lives, or ignore reality because its all just too painful. The hardest thing is to live.

And we ourselves try to ‘escape’ from the more unpleasant aspects of our lives through Buffy. I can’t be the only person who drew comfort from Buffy after a hard day after work, or arguments with my family. But Joss/Sweet warns that art can hurt you as well – its not a panacea for your ills, its not only just singing and dancing and fun, it can be painful, it can hurt and it can also be cathartic.

I personally think season 6 in all its tragedy is meant to be a cathartic experience. And if it’s only leaving people depressed, then the writers are indeed messing it up somewhere. I haven’t viewed it properly yet, to be able to cast my final judgement. Though I do read ‘depressing’ novels and emerge feeling refreshed of spirit, and I don’t know if everyone feels that way. The Gift, in my view was an example of Buffy as cathartic viewing par excellance.

I’m a strong believer in escapism that leads you right back to your life, right back to your problems, but leaving you equipped to face the real world with a little humour, joy and wit. Imagination, even, as Mole once posted eloquently about, that gives you a ‘third way’.

It seems as if Buffy’s foray into the unreality of the institutional world despite its painfulness provides her with a new strength through the other-world Joyce’s words, which are truthful despite the huge lie they are set in. Therein lies the paradox – that we as viewers can find more truth in art, and a new courage to face reality. Don’t ‘kill’ off your problems, as Buffy tries to kill of her friends, don’t turn away, but meet them head on.

Ho hum…..I seem to have wandered off the topic of Joan and Theresa somewhat.

[> [> [> Re: Lies, fantasy and reality... Wow -- Scroll, 06:29:32 03/12/02 Tue

Who cares if you wandered off topic, that was... wow!

Thanks for putting so clearly what's been brewing in my mind for a while: that this season has been about escapism, not just for Buffy and Willow, but for pretty much everyone. Spike with his Buffy- addiction and not-dealing with the fact that she's using him, Tara breaking up with Willow (though I think she was justified in that regard), Dawn stealing instead of sitting Buffy down and talking, Giles leaving because he kenw he couldn't be strong enough to refuse Buffy's pain, Xander running from his committment to Anya because of his fears, and Anya... Well, we'll see about Anya soon I think.

And I never saw the parallel between Joss and Sweet before but I have to say, wow! again, thanks!

[> [> [> [> Weight of the World and Normal Again. Spoilers for both -- Rahael, 07:30:13 03/12/02 Tue

Ahh..can’t take credit for the Joss/Sweet idea – the archives will show that it is due to Cynesthesia – I don’t think it’s quite fallen off the edge yet, and it’s well worth reading – titled ‘Once More with Joss’.

As for the facing/escaping reality thing, it strikes me that to fully engage with reality, one has to think, and be self aware. I can see parallels between ‘Normal Again’ and ‘Weight of the World’. The asylum is really nothing more than a metaphor (and yes, I’m being predictable as always. Is there nothing on Buffy I don’t see as a metaphor?!). In WotW, Buffy retreats into catatonia, and has to be snapped out by Willow in order to re-engage with the world. In Normal Again, she retreats to a ‘mental institution’ (i.e mental unhealth) from the pressing matters of her real world. She has a definite choice, which is to wake up to a place where she has parents, no kid sister and where her life is ‘normal’ or to go back to Sunnydale where there are no easy answers, and life is lonely and difficult. It isn’t a realistic fantasy world because when people retreat from difficulty into unhealthy fantasy, they usually go to a place where they don’t have to engage emotionally.

And I think the psychiatric ward/’heaven’ is the most potent symbol of Buffy’s depressive state yet, because there she is anaesthetised, drugged, numb from feeling. Emotionally protected, and pretending that her parents really are ‘together’ and she is the only child, free from competition. It's interesting that in both ‘NA’ and ‘WotW, Buffy is taken over by the impulse to ‘kill’. Either her sister, or her friends or her mother.

So I think we have a paradox – a fantasy world which is full of real problems, difficulty and emotional engagement, and a ‘realistic’ world where life is easier. I think in one way, ME are being playful – recently, we were discussing our ‘Buffy’ dreams – if a resident of Sunnydale were to ‘dream’ they might imagine a world with no vampires or magic.

Is the antidote that Willow gives and which Buffy throws away a symbol of the new life that Willow gave her? And does the fact that Buffy kills Joyce symbolic of her awareness that Joyce really is dead, she has no mother, and that life, finally, must get back to normal? It is quite common for those who are bereaved to take a long time to accept truly that the deceased is never coming back. I think its significant that Buffy listens to Joyce telling her to be strong, and finally kills her and not the Scoobies. She chooses the living, rather than the dead. Perhaps this is her turning point.

[> [> [> [> [> Correction -- Rahael, 09:33:30 03/12/02 Tue

This is what you get for skim reading wildfeeds! Just read Loey's review and its quite clear that Buffy does not kill Joyce. Misled by a post on another board.

Also, Loey made the same points about WotW, NA and fantasy/reality, turning point yadda yadda yadda. Am I the only person who gets depressed when you find out you aren't quite as original as you thought?

Well I suppose it shows that on this occasion I've not meandered away from the meaning one is supposed to get.

[> [> [> [> [> Having seen Normal Again -- Etrangere, 10:21:12 03/12/02 Tue

I can tell you that this episode is very much into the same kind of Once More With Feeling when it comes to metanarration, and you even got the characters whinning to their creator about what they did to them :)
I think this ep is a big look at how much the initial metaphorical basis of the show can still work for adult whom worst nightmare is the dull banality of reality. Once again, Whedon adresses the criticism you can do to Season 6, and it's magestrally done. And chilling. And the end is a big wink to Brazil, or that's just me ?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Having seen Normal Again -- leslie, 11:09:41 03/12/02 Tue

I haven't seen this yet, but it's starting to also sound like Flann O'Brien's _At Swim-Two-Birds_ (1939), in which (among other things) an author starts writing a potboiler novel populated by all kinds of bad characters, but the characters want nothing more than to settle down and live a quiet, middle-class existence, so *they* start writing a novel about the author in which he is afflicted with an amazing number of debilitating and repugnant diseases, which prevent him from writing. It all ends up in court, where the sides are represented by the Good Fairy and the Pooka Fergus MacFelimy. (And there's a great card-playing scene--sans, sadly, kittens--in which the Good Fairy gets caught cheating.) Finn MacCool is wandering around in there, too. Truth is an Odd Number.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Anyone read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol? -- ponygirl, 11:10:53 03/12/02 Tue

The descriptions of Normal Again are really reminding me of this amazing comic book series from a few years back. The writer Grant Morrison's stint on the book ended with the possiblity that the entire series had been the delusion of one the characters. She, too, when in a mental hospital was faced with the choice of a normal life or the supposed fantasy world. The ending was ambiguous about her choice and also about what normality really offered. They're great books if anyone is ever in a comic book store, with a great deal of symbolism and references ranging from dadaism to R.E.M. Wonder if Joss ever read them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Anyone read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol? -- Eric, 18:35:15 03/12/02 Tue

Tried it, wasn't my cuppa. Sorry. But I heartily recommend Neil Gaiman's Sandman comic series (and the first run of his Books of Magic). Grant Morrison also wrote for a pretty good comic called Hellblazer, whose main character resembles Spike so much I'm surprised Joss hasn't been sued yet.

[> [> [> wonderful wonderful, Rahael. -- yuri, 00:51:12 03/13/02 Wed

Cathartic, that's it! I am sorry that this season is leaving people depressed, because I'm finding it wonderful journey, despite and because of it being odd and dirty and unhappy much of the time.

Though I do read ‘depressing’ novels and emerge feeling refreshed of spirit, and I don’t know if everyone feels that way.
Well I certainly do.

I’m a strong believer in escapism that leads you right back to your life, right back to your problems, but leaving you equipped to face the real world with a little humour, joy and wit. Imagination, even, as Mole once posted eloquently about, that gives you a ‘third way’

Well this is going right into my lifetime quotelog.

[> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Rahael, 09:03:05 03/13/02 Wed

What a compliment...thanks!

I too echo your point about the oddness, dirt and unhappiness of Sunnydale. It's a bit like that moment in the Gift where Buffy vomits on the carpet in the midst of all that glorious light, all that sun illuminating her usually dark and dimly lit house.

In fact, the reality of 'The Body' seems to be much more in evidence this year, and in a way, I'm finding it curiously satisfying. I really enjoyed Buffy struggling with the washing up, and running out to try and catch the trashman. It reminded me of my childhood wish, when I read novels, to be able to step in and catch all those little private moments of the characters, and not just the big dramatic moments.

One of my favourite bits in 'Ulysses' is Bloom's breakfast preparations. Its not exactly mouthwatering, but it has a vividness and appeal -

I can't be the only one - why else is reality television so popular (or was until recently)? People tuning into watch really ordinary people, in their dullness, doing absolutely nothing at all? People in Britain used to tune in to watch the inmates of the Big Brother house just sleeping! I wonder if ME are making a slightly satirical point about the Troika and their own version of 'reality television', with their cameras trained on Buffy.

Though of course, 'boredom' and domestic detail is far more satisfying when portrayed in art.

[> [> [> [> [> urg. I mean Buffy vomiting in the Body, not the Gift! -- Rahael, 09:05:53 03/13/02 Wed

[> Link to image of Bernini's "Ecstacy of St Theresa" -- Darby, 07:08:26 03/12/02 Tue

For those of us who were, like me, ignorant of the sculpture.


Giles! (spoilers for HB) -- Solitude1056, 07:09:48 03/11/02 Mon

There's a whole reference to Giles in the shooting script - basically your average TV exposition about "why Giles couldn't make it," and including comment that Giles paid for the flowers. I don't recall this making it to the final version. Wonder why they cut it, when there's a good chance without it we're all left saying, "where's Giles!?" Did they really want us to think that Giles wouldn't call, wouldn't show, and didn't care? And worse, that none of the Scoobies would notice his absence and comment on it?

[> Re: Giles! (more spoilers for HB) -- neaux, 07:32:59 03/11/02 Mon

I have a personal theory that if Anya and Xander get back together.. they will have a small ceremony with just the scoobie gang and Giles will be in attendance.

[> Re: And...(spoilers for HB) -- Darby, 09:09:26 03/11/02 Mon

There seems to be more that didn't make it into the finished product than with other episodes. It's definitely worth a read!

Buffy does truly hate Spike??? Very small spoilers for Normal Again!!!! -- Monday, 08:20:15 03/11/02 Mon

In Normal Again when Buffy is talking about how unhappy she is in Sunnydale she asks Dawn, "why then am I sleeping with a vampire that I hate?"

Strong words, do you think she means them.

[> Re: Buffy does truly hate Spike??? Very small spoilers for Normal Again!!!! -- Chris Davies, 14:29:36 03/11/02 Mon

> Strong words, do you think she means them.

I certainly hope so.

Chris Davies.

[> Buffy is hard to understand -- Rachel, 08:40:38 03/12/02 Tue

She masks a dark interior with a cutesy pop-culture exterior. And sometimes, when she does get serious in tone, it comes across as masking a truly cutesty interior. Does that make any sense?

So when she says she hates Spike...I get the impression that it's like the "Never" reply to Spike's handcuff offer a couple episodes ago. If you've seen that ep, you know what I mean.

I had a idea for a "Buffy" website...Would anybody like to help? -- Rob, 11:28:28 03/11/02 Mon

I was thinking today about the amazing, numerous literary, historical, religious, mythological, musical, etc, etc references that litter "Buffy," both the obvious pop culture references, and the allusions that are beneath the surface.

There are, obviously, too many to ever collect all of them, because any thing can be interpreted multitudes of ways. But I was thinking...I don't have the time at the moment, but I would like to put together a completely annotatated guide to all the "Buffy" episodes, including stuff like the St. Joan/St. Theresa references posted about here today, my essay linking Buffy and Spike to Beauty and the Beast, "Forever"s links to "The Monkey Paw"...everything. Would anybody like to help me compile this information, from posts from this site, or for anything you can think of off the top of your head? Just sending me in one idea can be immensely helpful.

Annotations would also include recurring themes or story arcs on the show. A line from one ep that has bearing later in the series can be highlighted, something like that.

This would obviously be a long-term project, and I'd like to take a long time, to get as much info as possible. If anybody has any thoughts or ideas, please respond to this post, or e-mail me at



P.S. I'm very busy right now, due to school work, but I would like to perhaps have something to put on the web by July or August.

[> Actually, let's start this week with "Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest" annotations... -- Rob, 11:34:36 03/11/02 Mon

I'll start a post each new week with the next episode, in order...Put any annotations about this episode you would like...Like I said, literary, historical, whatever allusions, or lines that foreshadow later events, or sum up themes of the series as a whole. Character development. Anything.

I will give everybody who posts complete credit. I really want this to be a fan-based compendium.

And when it's done, I will of course link to AtPoBtVS, and, come to think of it, will make it clear, in the site's title, that it was created by the posters on the AtPoBtVS forum...Maybe, if Masq would be so kind, it could be linked to at the top of this forum, and can be another offshoot, like Existential Scoobies, or the Spoiler Trollop Board...


[> [> Re: Sounds like fun! -- Brian, 12:10:57 03/11/02 Mon

Great Idea, Rob. I'd love to help with textual analysis.
I'll email you when I get home

[> [> Sure thing... -- Masq, 13:24:03 03/11/02 Mon

About making a link to it on the discussion board and on my site as well. I'm sure Liq will link to it on the Existential Scooby site.

Don't forget we have close to eighteen months worth of archived posts full of literary, mythological, and historical allusions in the discussion board archives to plunder from.

I'd suggest starting there and copying the initial post of such threads, then linking to them so that visitors to your site can see the discussion of the post as well, 'cause that's where a lot of the good stuff comes from.

[> Excellent idea. A related question for Masq -- Sophist, 12:33:53 03/11/02 Mon

It's funny Rob should post this now, because I've been thinking about a related issue for a few days and was waiting till rerun hell to post it. Might as well ask Masq now.

This Board has created a fantastic resource for analysis of BtVS and AtS. Is someone saving all the significant posts, either in Archives or hardcopy? I'm just thinking someone may someday want to be able to collect contemporary analyses.

[> [> The ATPoBtVS archives... -- Masq, 13:18:54 03/11/02 Mon

someone has been saving all the significant posts since Oct of 2000. Look above in the link "ATPoBtVS archives". d'Herblay (who has been helping me) and I are a bit behind, but I archive the board once a week and Jan-March are sitting on my harddrive, d'Herb's and possibly another little helper's waiting for the html coding to commence.

Would anybody else like to help???

[> [> [> Willing to help but have no idea what I'm doing -- Sophist, 13:52:48 03/11/02 Mon

[> Re: I had a idea for a "Buffy" website...Would anybody like to help? -- Masq, 13:14:19 03/11/02 Mon

Sounds like a great idea. I'd link any or all of my episodes analyses to such a site.

Just stop and think about what you're getting into, though. Four years ago when I was a regular at the Bronze, I had this nifty idea of having site that would pull together and explain the metaphysical and ethical elements in each BtVS episode. It seemed like a fun little side project.

Back then there were only 2 1/2 seasons (This was around the time of "Lover's Walk).

Now I have a huge site spanning 2 shows, 6 seasons of one, 3 of the other, 71 web pages and 182 images, with a discussion board that has spawned an essay/fiction site, chat room, character reviews, volumous archives, multitudinous regulars, lurkers, and trolls. And of course people who link to and visit every week expecting stuff.

I suppose this makes my little endeavor was a success, but it's a work vacuum, too. Not that I'm complaining. There's a moral in here somewhere, though. Keen little ideas can take on a life of their own? Don't wear plaid and stripes together?

But the best part is: it's fun!

[> [> Re: I had a idea for a "Buffy" website...Would anybody like to help? -- Rob, 13:47:11 03/11/02 Mon

You're probably right about stopping and thinking before getting into this...I myself do know how much hard work a website can be. In fact, I run a website for another TV show right now, so you may think I'm doubly crazy to want to do this now! But, when I'm off of school, I have a lot of free time, so I thought it would be a great way to fill up time rewardingly on my summer break. My work on my other website does that for me a lot now, but, it is for an HBO show, Six Feet Under, which only has 13 episodes a year. So, once the season is over, I have the rest of the year with almost no new info to post at that site. I know, I'm gonna regret this...but love it, also!

Thanks for the other suggestions, by the way...I'm gonna start wading through the archives tonight, if I have time! And thanks for agreeing to link...and everything! Your site was such an inspiration to me when I first found it (and still), because it was the first intelligent site I found for a TV show. I hope this site can do the posts on AtPoBtVS justice.

Also, to lessen the load, I think, for now, I'll just do annotations for BtVS, just because to tackle "Angel" right now as well would be so huge a project! Depending on how well this goes, I might do that too later...and I guess I'll have to think about adding stuff like "Fray" and the upcoming Buffy cartoons.

Anyway, thanks again. I can't wait to get home and start working on it!


[> [> [> one more thing... -- Masq, 14:57:22 03/11/02 Mon

There is a site called "The Cultural Reference Guide to BtVS" at

It only spans the first three seasons. It was supposed, I gather, to move to where it would continue, but I see no evidence of that at tvtome.

It explains a lot of the pop culture references in the dialogue, etc. and is illuminary even to people from the U.S.

[> [> [> [> Cool, thanks! -- Rob, 15:17:12 03/11/02 Mon

[> Re: I had a idea for a "Buffy" website.. Music and Popreferences -- Dochawk, 13:38:54 03/11/02 Mon

Well some of your work has already been done. All of the music of both Buffy and Angel has been annotated at:

And The watcher's Guides have annotated some of the pop references in each episode for the first 2 or 3 years.

I think you'd need permission to link to the music site (but I would be suprised if she said no). Don't know about the Watcher's Guide.


[> Re: I had a idea for a "Buffy" website...Would anybody like to help? -- JM, 07:05:08 03/12/02 Tue

Also check out Their episode guide usually includes a list of topics and products referenced, as well as catching some of the more pop cultural allusions. Sactuary Screening Room does the same for Angel. Not as intellectual and philosophical as this lot, but good reference boards.

Wu Tang Clan vs. the Scoobies -- neaux, 12:51:36 03/11/02 Mon

Wu-Tang Clan vs. The Scooby Gang
By Neaux

The Wu-Tang Clan, a team of rappers whose names pay homage to Kung-fu heroes, consists of members that each have a definitive role within their group. The group shifts in size but still recognizes its members as they fluctuate in and out of the group, much the same as the Scoobies on BTVS.

For those uninformed of the Wu’s members, here is the mighty group of 10 and how they compare to Buffy’s Camp.

GZA- AKA Genius.. is best reflected in Giles. You have a head of a group with the smarts to instruct through wisdom.

RZA- AKA Bobby Digital is Known for laying down the Beats with GZA’s input. These two together are powerful masterminds.. Willow plays this part.

GhostFace Killa- is who else but Buffy.. with rhymes that slay but stay true to the heart in feeling.

Method Man AKA Ticallian Stallion, Johhny Blaze. A man with a love of comics and most vocal, considered the clown.. is Xander.

Raekwon the Chef – Known for the Intellectual look.. and extreme reference rhymes.. mixes with the style of a Good witch tending her cauldron. The Chef could easily represent Tara.

U-God is the quiet member… when he lets loose its brutal. That’s Oz.

Inspecta Deck is known for watching and taking notes and learning from the Group. Anya.

CappaDonna is the unofficial 10th member. Around so much he is considered part of the group. That’s Spike.

Master Killa is the newest member of the group and would be Dawn.

Lastly.. as everyone was wondering.. who would be
Ol’ D B. Ol dirty bastard.. known as the craziest member of the group. I could only think of FAITH. Both got locked up for being crazy.

What does all this mean?? Hell if I know, but it was fun to make the comparisons.. and I was really bored today at work. :P

[> Hilarious and very insightful. -- VampRiley, 14:03:49 03/11/02 Mon

[> Hmmm... -- GreatRewards, 14:54:26 03/11/02 Mon

Can't quite remember all the KungFu heroes from my childhood. Maybe I'm just getting senile... which KungFu hero was called Old Dirty Bastard, again?

[> [> Re: Hmmm... -- neaux, 16:07:48 03/11/02 Mon

The name Ol' Dirty Bastard comes from the early 80's movie "Ol' Dirty Kung Fu" and the movie "Hard Bastard."

His moniker I believe is a combination of the two movie titles.

Ol' Dirty is often associated with the Drunken Style of fighting.. due to um.. err.. his constant drunkedness.

[> I love it! And find your own Wu Tang name -- ponygirl, 15:15:24 03/11/02 Mon

That was great. But who would win in a fight? I leave it to others to do the boy band of choice vs. the Scoobies.

BTW if you want to find your own Wu Tang name check out Mine is Action-Packed Mentallist!

[> [> I'm Partially-Formed Transformah... -- VampRiley, 16:24:44 03/11/02 Mon

How do they come up with these names anyway?


[> [> [> Grand Moff Puppeteer at your service! -- juliaabra, 17:13:59 03/11/02 Mon

Forewarned is forearmed, grasshoppers. Beware the Grand Moff--remember Alderan. ;-) And if you could just forget about that whole blown up Death Star thing, that would be great, thanks....

[> [> [> I tried a variation of my name -- VampRiley, 20:57:27 03/11/02 Mon

Optimistic Lyricist


[> [> [> [> Slumbering Pierrot... think i'm going to sleep :) -- Etrangere, 04:36:37 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Um...Half-cut Skeleton? What the? Oh well... ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:40:08 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> Sheepish Lord of Chaos - I like it! (NT) -- Ixchel, 18:01:17 03/11/02 Mon


[> [> Budget Nudist at your service. ;) -- LadyStarlight, 18:12:05 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> [> Now, I never think of you in a budgetary sense, LS. This algorithm is of questionable value! -- Jects'n Mirr, 20:26:54 03/11/02 Mon

'Sidereally Luxacious One' is still the nick to beat, ASFIK.


[> [> Curly-Haired Slacker? I don't have curly hair! -- OnM, 20:12:22 03/11/02 Mon

How about Jects'n Mirr? Much snappier. Hu-yahhh!!!


[> [> Forget about me. My book's heroine is Big Wicker Ventriloquist -- Catus Watcher, 20:53:20 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> Officer Stinkah! -- Deeva, 21:34:22 03/11/02 Mon

I've been called many things but this one is...different. ;o)

[> [> Flippant She-Creature -- Vickie, 21:50:30 03/11/02 Mon

uh, I resemble that remark!

[> [> Asthmatic Enemy of God -- Wheezy Wilder, 22:14:02 03/11/02 Mon

[> [> 'Radiophonic Oddity' - hey I kinda like it! -- pagangodess, 05:01:36 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Dizzy Cow -- matching mole, 05:14:14 03/12/02 Tue

or Detective Ventriloquist if I enter my real name

[> [> [> huh? that's what i got w/my real name! -- anom, 07:37:15 03/12/02 Tue

But when I entered "anom alous" (there are ways around that 2-name requirement), it came up w/Cheeky Delinquent! & shout out to Rahael--try your posting name as 1st name & just put a space in the 2nd box--that gave me Machiavellian!

So, 2 dizzy cows & 3 names w/"ventriloquist"--is there some kind of pattern we could figure out?

[> [> [> [> Re: huh? that's what i got w/my real name! -- neaux, 07:41:55 03/12/02 Tue

yeah... I dont know how cool that Wu name really is

with my real name I got Partially Formed Transformah too.. the same as Vamp Riley..

when you get the same name as someone else.. you feel gypped. :( me sad.

[> [> [> [> [> Just shows the random garbage generator is limited. -- Cactus Watcher, 07:47:50 03/12/02 Tue

I got a repeat of Curly-Haired Slacker using the alien name of one of my alien characters.

[> [> [> [> [> Tried my screen name... -- VampRiley, 10:30:44 03/12/02 Tue

First: Vamp
Last: Riley


Bilious Bad Janitah


[> [> [> Alas, I got "Dizzy Cow" for my real name -- Masq, 09:23:26 03/12/02 Tue

Not a very flattering image

[> [> [> [> that makes 3 of us! -- anom, 15:24:18 03/12/02 Tue

Maybe we could form a club.

BTW, just for the hell of it I tried a space in "1st name" & "anom" in "2nd name" & came up with..."null." (Oh boy.) When I did it the other way around I got "Machiavellian." If that gives any clues to how this thing works...I have no idea. maybe "null" fits after all.

[> [> Optimistic Lyricist -- Kimberly, 06:13:48 03/12/02 Tue

Or Lesbian Pimp if I use my real name. These guys are WEIRD! :-D

[> [> [> Re: Optimistic Lyricist -- Arethusa, 07:39:56 03/12/02 Tue

Please go with the pimp thing-with my real name, I'm Optimistic Lyricist!

[> [> Ventriloquist Detective.... -- Rahael, 06:32:16 03/12/02 Tue

With my real posting name, being singular, didn't work.

[> [> Contagious Specialist (cool) -- Lilac, 07:11:37 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Look out...I'm Erratic Assassin! -- Belladonna, 07:24:42 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Monolithic Fishmonger-X - I like it -- dream of the consortium, 08:08:10 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> Well-Liked Assman... at your service! -- GreatRewards, 08:12:39 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> [> Re: Well-Liked Assman... AGAIN? -- Farstrider, 08:30:21 03/12/02 Tue

I got the same name. So I tried my full name and I got Ungrateful Ninja. I think I will now be known as Ungrateful Assman!


[> [> 100-Watt Warlock Oh, yeah, down with me bad self! -- Whisper2AScream, 11:41:25 03/12/02 Tue

Bilious Bad Janitah or Dependable Skeleton
The first was with my middle initial, the second without. And then tried with my screen name. Hence the subject title, sweet!

[> [> New Fast Automatic F-REEK (Huh?) -- Darby, 11:44:07 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> [> *snickering* Sorry. *snickering* -- VampRiley, 13:35:52 03/12/02 Tue

[> [> I got Vangelic Surgeon...whatever that is! (NT) -- O'Cailleagh, 07:51:20 03/13/02 Wed

[> hah! Bravo. -- Lazy-Assed Destroyer (AKA yuri), 00:42:46 03/12/02 Tue

The more I think about it the more it works. I was tentative about Meth as Xander, but then thinking about that Limp Bizkit music video...

Reakwon as Tara and Ghostface as Buff - perfect!

And ODB shows up with the clan about as much as Eliza guest-stars.

And if you dug the Wu Names, try the prison name generator, which is honestly less fun and more gross. But hey -- ...yeah.

[> [> Big Gay Mule! -- Sheri, 19:17:38 03/12/02 Tue

[> Is it possible to fit the Scoobies into Sesame Street too? -- Nevermore, 07:12:09 03/13/02 Wed

Many TV shows try to depict the diverse range of characters found in society. I expect it is possible to compare the scooby gang with most shows where there are a group of friends. I'm just wondering which Scooby would be Schnarf in Thundercats...

Current board | More March 2002