March 2002 posts

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S7 series finale...spoilers through NA -- Dead Soul, 16:51:13 03/23/02 Sat

Season 7, series finale, last 30 seconds - Sunnydale, Scoobies and all, slide, drainlike, into the Hellmouth. The whirling spiraling town is sucked into one blank, catatonic eye of Asylum Buffy. Joss cackling in the background "I told you so, I told you so!"

Sorry, I've been reading archived posts about NA and this evil thought just came to me.

What a way to introduce myself to a great group of very nice, albeit scarily smart, people who've never done anything to me except suck up all my free time since I discovered this board. Can you ever forgive me?

Dead Soul

[> We "suck"?????LOL.....;) -- Rufus, 18:09:05 03/23/02 Sat

What's time anyhow when you can spend it here....with us..:):):):):)

[> [> Re: We "suck"?????LOL.....;) -- Dead Soul, 18:15:14 03/23/02 Sat

Only in a very pleasurable way (I do try not to channel Mae West but she keeps slipping out).

Dead Soul

[> Fellow Dead Soul -- DickBD, 18:27:05 03/23/02 Sat

I'm just like you. I've only discovered this site a couple of days ago--and I think my wife must think I have found a sex chat room.

The fact is that I may be different from the rest of you, but I was delighted to find such smart and funny people. But that is not the only way I am different. I am 71 in years, a retired biology and general science teacher, and the author of several minor books on esoteric subjects. (They have a bit of a following, so the books are successful in their own way.)

I caught on to Buffy only last year after reading an article by Wendy Kamminer extolling the virtues of the series. I am such a fan of hers that I started watching. Talk about catch up! The stength of the series is its weakness. You have to know quite a bit of detail that you may miss in a single episode. Then came FX with the reruns from the beginning. I felt like an archeologist with a time machine--really excited, to the point of exaltation.

I felt this year's episodes were a bit of a disappointment, but I should have realized they were leading up to something. The episode you refer to absolutely blew me away. And your Joss cackling, "I told you so" reminded me of Dick Deadeye in HMS PINAFORE (which shows, I suppose, that we all have our own personal weirdness to bring to this wonderful board).

Great post, by the way. (Josh may have to erase and start from scratch!)

[> De-lurk of the year? -- Vickie, 21:04:50 03/23/02 Sat

Two such fascinating folks in one thread! Welcome! We look forward to your contributions.

[> [> Re: De-lurk of the year? -- Dead Soul, 23:45:02 03/23/02 Sat

Thank you so much for the warm welcome - not that I expected any less after reading the gazillions of excellent, thought-provoking, polite and respectful posts on this board.

Dead Soul

A Very Buffy Birthday, or Why I Have the Best Best Friend in the World! -- Rob, 19:26:35 03/23/02 Sat

Over this past weekend, I turned 21! Yeah me! That's right...I've finally reached my legal peak! Yup...Look at me. All legal!

So all week has been full of hugs and puppies. I don't drink, after some very not fun past experiences involving regurgitation and hours of general headachy not-funness, but I did buy myself a small wine bottle to commemorate the occasion.

Everything was great, but my very best friend in the entire universe was away in New Hampshire. His name's Justin, incidentally. So it really did damper up the whole occassion!

But, this weekend, Justin took a flight back to New York just to celebrate the birth of me. And you'll never guess what he got me...My heart is still acting all wonky, like a M'Fashnik demon on steroids!

He got me a cast photo of "Buffy," signed by the ENTIRE CAST...SMG, AH, ASH, NB, EC, AB, JM, MT...JOSS!!!!!! He got it from an on-line autograph store, and it comes with a certificate of authenticity from ME and everything!

We have been best friends for years, but we rarely hug or anything like that. But I swear to God, the second he gave it to me, I gave him the biggest bear hug ever. I spent the rest of the night, staring at the picture and drooling. I don't think anyone's ever bought me something I loved so much...and I can still hardly believe it.

He knows me so well! ;o)


[> Re: A Very Buffy Birthday, or Why I Have the Best Best Friend in the World! -- Wynn, 20:10:36 03/23/02 Sat

Happy Birthday! And it is a fab birthday present! I know I'm jealous! :)

[> Happy Birthday........ -- Rufus, 20:38:57 03/23/02 Sat

21! I've been 21 before....:):):):)

PS: Justin is a Saint.

[> You bastard...You lucky... lucky bastard. -- VampRiley, 20:55:33 03/23/02 Sat

Happy birthday!!!!!!!

VR, an envious one.

[> Re: A Very Buffy Birthday, or Why I Have the Best Best Friend in the World! -- TRM, 21:12:34 03/23/02 Sat

Thanks for sharing too! It makes me happy to hear of friendships like that. Happy birthday!

[> Happy birthday Rob! -- ponygirl, 21:20:56 03/23/02 Sat

[> Re: A Very Buffy Birthday, or Why I Have the Best Best Friend in the World! -- JM, 22:23:10 03/23/02 Sat

Happy B-day Rob, we March babies rock.

PS Are you the same Rob with the SFU Web-site? It's awesome, and I can't believe you're only 21. Very mature taste and very professional work.

[> [> Yes.... -- Rob, 07:22:02 03/24/02 Sun

...That's my SFU site, and thanks! :-)


[> Happy Birthday ! -- Ete, 04:53:44 03/24/02 Sun

Wow, I'd like to get such a gift when I'll turn 21.

but, hey ! that wasn't a Buffy kind of Birthday : no Apocalypse :)

[> Thanks, everybody! :-) Hate to brag, but how could I come here everyday and keep that to myself?!? -- Rob, 07:24:18 03/24/02 Sun

[> joyeux anniversaire! -- julia, 08:08:00 03/24/02 Sun

Is BtVS heading for Desegregation? Speculative -- Maddy, 02:32:02 03/24/02 Sun

I posted this on the BC&S, and was more than a little intimidated about putting it over here. This is my first post, and you guys are so smart. Please be kind!!

I have been having a full out Buffy marathon in the past few days. Btw watching S1 on F/X (damn that The Shield!) and watching S2-S6(damn that Sins of the Father, nearly forgot about you!) on tapes, I have to wonder if the show is headed toward some kind of message of finding a way for demons and humans to exist together.

In S1, there usually was a Monster of the Week (MOTW) type thingie that needed and got killed. The ep started or revolved around some Oogly Boogly that was being researched, tracked, or killed. As the storyline of Angel/ Angelus/Spike/Dru became ever more interesting, there was a recession in the type of MOTW eps. Even into S3. Maybe this was moreso because the show was moving into developing the characters. Also I didn't hurt that there was a Vampire, a witch, and a werewolf (all generally portrayed as evil) working for the side of good. But it wasn't until S6 that this theory of mine manifested. It seems that S6 has gone out of it's way to make the human side look worse than the demon population. For example:

The Troika - Murder, attempted rapists, armed robbers, etc.
Mr. Harris - Drunken, prejudiced, ignorant
The Scoobies (except for Giles of course)- See eps. 1-17

However, the demons seem more sympathetic and pleasing to watch this season. (Anya, Spike, and Clem.) The demons at the wedding were the prime example of this. They were not the snarling animals that one would think that demons were. They were quite the opposite. Very genial, polite, and well mannered. Also, I have to wonder what's with all the demon interaction this season? Spike is a regular now, so no need to include him, but with the exception of when their lives are being threatened, the Scoobies have interacted with plenty of demons lately. Buffy went to a demon bar with Spike. Clem attended the birthday party, and the non-wedding. There was loads of demons at the non-wedding. And, there has been little slaying unless the demons were actually attacking. The one instance that keeps knawing at me, is the Land/Loan Shark in Tabula Rasa. He is not only a "bad demon" but he is a mobster of sorts. This is defintely not the kind of creature that Buffy needs around Sunnydale. For obvious plot reasons, he is not killed in their encounter in the cemetary, but she is not later shown killing or attempting to find and kill him. I have to wonder what that says about what Buffy thinks is her place in controlling the demon population.

Is she content in fixing only what she encounters? Is she only focused on killing bad demons? Has her interactions with demons who show a large amount of human/humane qualities shown her that not all things are as Black and White as she thinks.

With the lack of a MOTW or even a demony BB this season; and the introduction of a certain witty, kitten gambling demon, is ME trying to tell the audience that Sunnydale may be about to take it's proverbial blindfold off, and make adjustments for the demon pop.? Or I am just a delusional, overly obsessed, sleep deprived fan?

Sorry if this rambles, and for all the bad grammar.

[> Re: Is BtVS heading for Desegregation? Speculative -- Kevin, 10:26:13 03/24/02 Sun

I was also struck by the wedding. It was impossible to not notice that most of the demons were far more polite and likeable than most of the humans.

The last few seasons, I'm thinking back to even S4 when the Initiative caught Oz, seem to have been looking past the outer shell of each creature and looking at evil or good based on the characters actions and intentions as opposed to their idenity as either demon or human.

The Buffyverse certainly seems to have moved from an originally fairly black and white viewpoint to and increasingly grey one. I think that this parallels the growing up the characters have done over the years. A child's world is much more simplistic, good guys and bad guys, without anything in between. As you become an adult, you realize that the world is far more complicated than that and that things are rarely as simple as true black and white.

While I admit to missing the monster of the week (I loved Giles and his books), the show has become more interesting to me because the moral ambiguity it portrays is closer to how I see real life.

*A Working Class Hero is Something to Be* - No. 3 in an occasional series -- OnM, 09:09:05 03/24/02 Sun

From today's Philadelphia Inquirer:


As penance for ruining his day, I make a wholehearted if futile attempt to understand his explanation of the intricacies of ion exchange. He is an articulate scientist who inspired legions of students and colleagues during his years at Columbia, then at Union Carbide, then at Dickinson College, and finally here at Messiah. I'm thankful that his failing eyes don't detect my own glazing over as he recites a string of letters, numbers and symbols.

"Just as simple as that," Crist concludes.

"As simple as that," I repeat, my mind numb.

But 10 minutes into the interview-turned-lecture, I admit, "I'm lost."

"Don't you think that's simple?" he chides me. "Oh! Go on, now!"

I sigh, accepting my limitations. This is the single most striking difference between Crist and me, separated though we are by gender as well as six decades. It's the thing that separates Crist from most people, I would wager. Smart as he is, he doesn't know that he has limitations, let alone accept them. He doesn't realize, for instance, that age is a limitation. In fact, when Dickinson College informed him that he was of mandatory retirement age, the former Shepherdstown farm boy promptly meandered up the road to Messiah College and offered his full-time services as researcher and educator for the annual salary of $1.

That was 32 years ago.

That's $32.


Article (c) 2002 The Philadelphia Inquirer


[> Jesus crist! (sorry, couldn't help it.) I love these, OnM, thanks. -- yuri, 11:26:49 03/24/02 Sun

[> Printed this out for my father-in-law -- Vickie, 11:54:17 03/24/02 Sun

A 75-year-old biology professor starting phased retirement and hating it. He's going to just love this article!

Darkness in the Buffy- verse -- Ian, 15:46:23 03/24/02 Sun

In several recent posts the subject of "darkness" has been raised, but to my knowledge never really explained. Just what is darkness in the Buffy-verse, anyway?

Is darkness violence, and if so, violence in self defense or just violence period? Is darkness the intention to cause pain and suffering? Or is darkness marked by the failure to perceive or care about the moral or ethical consequences of one's actions? Is darkness in the show one thing or category, or really a world of gray?

Here are some vague and non-referenced appearances of "darkness" on the show:

For the past several seasons Buffy has grown increasingly concerned over her inner "darkness" and the source and nature of her Slayer attributes.

Spike has tried to appeal to Buffy and her "dark" nature over the course of his courtship of her and their subsequent, um, whatever.

Spike's post-chip struggle to define just how he can continue be "his bad self" without physically being able to harm non-demons. Is he in the process of rejecting his own darkness, or is he totally uninterested in the realm of morality?

Riley's attempts to understand the nature of Buffy's attraction to darkness by allowing himself to be sampled.

Willow's inner struggle to resist the allure of power/magic, and her questionable grasp of what constitutes wrong anyway--intentions or results?

The Troika's descent into darkness and just where they crossed the line.

There are more of course, but I'm also curious to see if what I consider to be "darkness" is in fact a true example of darkness, or something else entirely.

[> I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. -- Sophist, 16:32:16 03/24/02 Sun

[> Throw a rock and you'll hit it... -- Eric, 17:30:38 03/24/02 Sun

It does seem kind of silly. Buffy is set in a locale that's naturally dark. There's no shortage of cranky monsters on the Hellmouth. And you can add all the dark horrors that can lurk in the human soul even in our world.

What most people mean is that moral certainties and "happily ever after endings" will become increasingly rare. This ain't "Friends" or "Walker, Texas Ranger". Things don't get wrapped up neatly by the end credits. I DO hope, however, that the writers don't use this as and excuse to neglect the fundemental humor and absurdity of the show. If it becomes too serious all the time it will lose its luster.

[> Moral Ambiguities -- Marrec, 22:56:46 03/24/02 Sun

This has always been a fuzzy subject when dealing with BtVS. Is Evil in the traditional sense, really evil? When does a human go from Bad to Evil? Angel wasn't evil, though Angelus was. Does a soul really make that much of a difference? Was Angelus only evil because of Liam's irresponsible and destructive behavior? To many questions, I'll go to answering a few.

Evil and Darkness, in the traditional sense, is how you put it. "the failure to perceive or care about the moral or ethical consequences of one's actions" But then, in that way, all of us are pretty darned evil. There isn't a fine line between Good and Evil, it's huge. Especially when you look at different cultures/races/religions.

Vampires are evil because they destroy human life and have no care either way about doing the descrution... but we do the same to livestock and plant life. Is it different with us because the things we feed off of can't have emotions? Or is the only reason we see Vampires as evil because they used to be human, and are participating in Caniballism? You could argue that Vampires enjoy bringing pain and suffering to Humans. But don't most humans enjoy eating steaks?

IMHO, Evil and Darkness are defined by casting off the moral and ethical shakles of your Culture, and doing it for fun. Not because you need to do it to live, (or un-live) but because its just plain fun.

A good example of this, is when Angelus tortures and haunts Drusilla till insanity. Why did Angelus feel he had to cause that level of pain and suffering to her? Because he got a cheep thrill out of it. So when Spike went after the Slayer in 1900 because it would one-up Angelus... was that evil? Sort of... the Slayer is the Vampires natural enemy. So Spike physically and mentally trying to kill her is explainable. Also, Spike did feed from the Slayer.

So, what does this answer? Nothing... but I do say that most of the "Darkness" we see of BtVS is really just acts of Selfishness. And "Sort of" evil. So it's hard to make the distinction between Darkness and not. But like Sophist said, when something is Dark, you know. There is usually no agrument. So what about Spike in Seasons 4-6? Who knows...

A Return to Innocence -- Malandanza, 18:59:24 03/24/02 Sun

I saw Innocence for the first time in years -- I had forgotten how great that episode was. There's something for every Buffy fan in it -- the soap opera, comedy, amazing action (complete with rocket launcher) and metaphors and metaphysics.

SMG's acting in the final scene with Giles was inspired. Oz had a romantic speech. Cordy and Xander got caught kissing by Willow and Jenny and Giles had their relationship abruptly halted. Oh -- and the whole Angel/Buffy breakup.

There were great one-liners. Cordelia and Xander, Oz and Willow, Willow and Xander re: the Cordelia/Xander kissing, Angel and Spike, Spike and the Judge, etc.

Action: a race against time between the Slayer and her former lover -- with Angelus just a step or two ahead right up until the very end. Angelus and Dru dashing out of range of the rocket launcher just before Buffy fires.

Angel as the boyfriend who turns evil after sex. Angelus' remarks are very similar to Parker's from season 4.

We start wondering what a soul is and why it makes such a difference. We learn the difference between justice and vengeance -- and wonder whether the techno-pagan caused all this grief by not adhering more closely to the old ways. Also, we learn that "moment of true happiness" is a Gypsy euphemism for sex.

Ancient history, I know. But what I found most interesting is how everything in this episode seemed relevant for season 6.

Let's get Spike out of the way first. Yes, I know season 2 was a long time ago and many things have happened to Spike since then. He's not the same person and the baby-sitting for Dawn over the summer balances a century of evil, etc. Angelus and Spike. Spike's security was lax -- it was an afterthought. Angelus just waltzed right in. When Angelus and Dru took the Judge to the mall, the first thing Angelus did was sent his minions to cut off all exits. Then he began the mayhem. Angelus understands the slayer in a way that Spike has never been able to -- Angelus understood that he could not defeat Buffy in a fair fight -- he had to exploit a weakness, take her out of the game. Spike continued to challenge Buffy in physical combat even though she always wins. Angelus is smarter. He has more style. He's more evil ("clean" in the words of the Judge). No wonder Dru likes him better.

"Spike never wanted to destroy the world" is a lie. He wanted to destroy the world in Innocence, dog races, happy meals with legs and all. For Dru.

DRUSILLA: We're going to destroy the world. Do you want to come?

ANGEL: Yeah, destroying the world... great. I'm really more interested in the Slayer.

SPIKE: Well, she's in the world, so it should work out

What changed his mind was Angelus taking Dru from him. Buffy is right in Becoming, he changes his mind and wants her help "'cause your girlfriend's a big ho?" We also see that Spike isn't the noble creature battle one on one in a fair duel -- he tells Angelus that 4 to 1 is the kind of odds he likes. He likes excitement, but he also likes to know he'll win.

Willow. Willing to use Oz to get even with Xander. She's is very lucky Oz was a nice guy. Her behavior is still Parkerish -- that's why Tara is gone.

"Buffy's greatest strength is her emotions." Actually, no. Her greatest weakness is her emotions, her greatest strength is her anger (some will argue that anger is an emotion, but when people claim Buffy's strength is her emotions they do not mean anger -- so it is mere sophistry). Buffy is helpless in the hallway when Angelus threatens Willow -- he even kisses her roughly then tosses her aside before leaving. She is unable to kill Angelus at the end of the episode. We have seen emotional Buffy defeated time and time again, but Buffy as Anger Girl is unstoppable. Thus, in The Body, Griefstricken Buffy can barely handle a single newly risen vampire, while in Into the Woods, Anger Girl massacres a horde of vampires. We also see a flash of Anger Girl in Innocence after her prophetic dream revealing Jenny's role in this:

She awakens, still in her clothes. Steely purpose in her eyes.
Buffy strides through the mass of students, paying no attention to anything around her.
Jenny is standing before her desk talking in low tones to Giles. A few students sit at computers, working silently.
Buffy strides in, the grown-ups looking up as Buffy crosses the room to them.
She never breaks stride. It's one swift motion from walking to taking Jenny by the neck and slamming her down onto the desk.
Pencils and disks fly everywhere. Kids look up, stand, shocked as Giles -
GILES: Buffy!
-- tries to grab at her, Buffy shoving him away without even looking at him.
BUFFY: (to Jenny) What do you know?
Jenny is wide eyed - Buffy is choking her, a murderer's calm in her eyes.

The Shooting Scripts don't do justice to this scene -- Buffy's march down the hallway and attack on Jenny is frightening (and very cool :).

And at the end of the episode, we get our first glimpse of Apathy Buffy (Joyce lights a candle on her birthday cupcake and tells Buffy to make a wish -- she responds: I'll just let it burn.)

[> Forget -- LeeAnn, 20:07:39 03/24/02 Sun

I have to quote Elizabeth Bennet in Austin's Pride and Prejudice,
"Perhaps I did not always love him so well as I do now. But in such cases as these, a good memory is unpardonable. This is the last time I shall ever remember it myself.'

[> Re: A Return to Innocence -- Marrec, 23:18:54 03/24/02 Sun

Innocence is easily one of my favorite episodes. Mostly because it's a great prequil to B1 and B2. But I think your not really looking at how Angelus works when concerning Buffy. Now, I see you obviously have a lot of hate for Spike. (Well, hate is a strong word) If not that, then the people who say he's "Getting better". But Angelus doesn't know Buffy in the least bit. He is blinded by his love for her. (Or obsession) Though he does know he can't beat her in a physical battle, his was of fighting her is all wrong. He makes her angry. Which is the worst thing you can do to Buffy if you want to beat her. (Examples: B2, Harsh Light of Day, The Jenny-Buffy exchange in the middle of class) You said it yourself, her best weapon is her anger. Spike has a better grasp on who Buffy is really. (As shown multiple times, even pre-chip.) And he is much smarter then Angelus. Lets face it folks, Spike isn't the strongest Vamp in the world. The only reason he's survived this far is because he is smart, and empathic. He's plays the Psycological game far better then any vampire. Instead of making Buffy angry, he pleas to her sense of reason. He figured in B1 and 2 that if he could get Buffy and Angelus in the same room together, then he could kill two birds with one stone. That's why he "Helped" buffy. And I do think he doesn't want the world to end.

Angelus wanted to end the world because of the feelings he had for Buffy. Whether he was truly feeling love for her, or it was just a carry over from Angel, he still felt them. And hated feeling them. As Angel hates the feeling of Guilt he has to go through every second, Angelus was similarly tormented by his love for Buffy. So, he took the easy way out. Blow up the world. Angelus was evil, truly. But he wasn't very smart.

[> [> Re: A Return to Innocence -- Malandanza, 08:56:34 03/25/02 Mon

"Now, I see you obviously have a lot of hate for Spike. (Well, hate is a strong word) If not that, then the people who say he's 'Getting better'."

I like Spike. But I also liked Cardinal Richelieu in The Three Musketeers and Henry Crawford from Mansfield Park -- liking a character is not the same as believing him to be good, chivalrous and kind to dumb animals. And hate is too strong of a word -- I hate things like genocide, racism and the works of Hemingway -- I don't hate people who say Spike is 'getting better' -- in fact, I enjoy sparring with them. Spike is amusing, but he's not "a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of redemption." (Tabula Rasa) He's evil and unrepentant; when he does good, it is with bad grace and ulterior motives. He is no Angel.

"But Angelus doesn't know Buffy in the least bit. He is blinded by his love for her. (Or obsession) Though he does know he can't beat her in a physical battle, his was of fighting her is all wrong. He makes her angry. Which is the worst thing you can do to Buffy if you want to beat her. (Examples: B2, Harsh Light of Day, The Jenny-Buffy exchange in the middle of class) You said it yourself, her best weapon is her anger. "

I'm glad you agree about the anger. I have felt for some time that Buffy's strength lies in darkness.

But I think Angelus' plan to weaken the slayer by an emotional attack was sound. The problem was that Angelus didn't know when to quit. Cordelia called Buffy a "basket case" is Innocence and she was correct -- Buffy was helpless in the first exchanges between Angelus and herself. Even at the end of the episode, she allowed her emotions to intrude and was unable to dust Angelus -- and failure that was to cost Jenny's life and risk the lives of her friends. Spike was around to witness the result of a "brassed off slayer" and yet he didn't learn a thing from Angelus' example. In Harsh Light of Day he antagonizes Buffy until she is angry enough to beat him -- Gem of Amara and all. In season six, how many beatings has he received by pushing Buffy past her limits of endurance? And why does he make her angry? What does he hope to gain by taunting her after sex or showing up at her work and demanding that she "service" him? If it wasn't smart for Angelus, it certainly isn't smart for Spike -- he may just get himself staked one day if Buffy loses control over her anger.

As for not wanting to destroy the world -- in Innocence he does want to destroy the world. That's why he and Dru assembled the Judge. He says as much. He changed his mind when Angel took Dru from him. Spike is evil, but it is a selfish, petty and myopic evil -- he does not look at the future nor does he consider the ramifications of his actions until after the fact. He helped Buffy fight Angelus (and the noble, slayer-killing vampire struck Angelus from behind, hit him while he was down and then fled the scene of the battle) to get Dru back -- for no other reason. When he left, the battle was not over -- Angelus was winning, Buffy looked like she was going to die, and Spike left town. If he were there to save the world, he wouldn't have left when it was still in jeopardy. Is he smart? There is a sort of cunning about him -- he is an excellent manipulator, but he needs to think about consequences once in a while.

[> [> [> Angelus and Spike have the same problem -- JennaGrace, 09:38:30 03/25/02 Mon

I think that in the end the attacks of both Spike and Angelus were fairly sound but carried the same fatal flaw. They always wanted to draw out their moment of glory, to savor the moment as long as they could. This is often the flaw of villains who get close to, but never succeed in killing the hero. Spike got close to killing Buffy in School Hard and in The Harsh Light of Day, but both times, at the pivotal moment, he took time out to taunt her verbally. We see in Fool For Love that Spike didn't have this problem with the other two slayers he killed; he had beat and killed them within the same few seconds. Angelus has the same problem, although for him it seems to be because he prefers playing with his food to eating it. We saw how he brutally tortured Druscilla and made the pain last for a very long time with his other victims. Although his ploy to weaken Buffy's defenses through her emotions was sound, he should have been smart enough to realize that drawing out the game does not work well when up against the slayer. In Innocence, Spike taunts Angelus for having failed to kill Buffy in their first confrontation, but they seem to share a similar problem.

[> [> [> Acting out! -- LeeAnn, 10:00:59 03/25/02 Mon

In season six, how many beatings has he received by pushing Buffy past her limits of endurance? And why does he make her angry? What does he hope to gain by taunting her after sex or showing up at her work and demanding that she "service" him?

Spike is like a neglected child who is so desperate for attention that he acts out just to get it. He would prefer a kiss or caress from Buffy but he'll take a punch if that's all he can get. He wants love and romance but he'll take a beating if he has to. He just wants Buffy to pay attention to him, to focus on him, to do anything to him. Anything being better than nothing.

In the Gem of Amarra, he can't take the same kind of poke at Buffy that she let Parker take, so he takes the violent kind, but it was just more foreplay, the dance, a courtship dance.

And I thought the way he delivered his little "service me" joke was cute.

[> [> [> Re: A Return to Innocence -- leslie, 10:18:41 03/25/02 Mon

Ever the fan of characters who evolve, I would say that Innocence is the point where Spike starts to actually consider the repercussions of destroying the world. At first he's keen on the idea, but primarily because getting the Judge assembled is a way to please Dru, and that is always a Good Thing in his estimation. Yeah, let's be Bad! What's badder than destroying the world? Pure nihilism! Cool! But when Angel waltzes in and takes over, suddenly Spike starts to question what's going on. He may even see some reflection of his obsession with Dru in Angel's insistence upon torturing Buffy *before* getting around to ending the world. This isn't the plan. But what is the plan? What are they really trying to do? Ending the world--Buffy's in the world--ending the world will end her. But wait. Aren't they in the world, too, he and Dru? Does he want to end them, too? Here is Angel threatening his relationship with Dru, and he realizes that he doesn't want it to end. In a way, Spike's situation in Innocence foreshadows his situation when he's chipped--he's paralyzed, either confined to a wheelchair or constrained by the brain pain, he can't get up and moving, and he wants to end it all-- either by ending the world, or staking himself. In each case, he is prevented by circumstances from carrying through, and then decides to keep on unliving. But in the aftermath of deciding against ending it all, he has a renewed appreciation for the world and existing in it.

One scene I love in this episode is the exchange between Spike and Dru when she's nattering on about how she's looking at the stars, she's named them, but she's named them all the same name, and it's causing terrible confusion. Spike's tone of voice as he points out that she isn't looking at the stars, that's the ceiling, and anyway it's daytime, is amazing--he's patient, practical, slightly amused, but not adamant. He is completely accepting of the fact that she sees the world differently, he acknowledges the value of her vision, but he also wants to make sure she realizes that it's daytime, and so she probably shouldn't get so happy about the stars' confusion that she tries to go out to see them and gets burned up in the process. Spike may be a master manipulator, and he may be clear-sighted about other people's psyches, but these appear to be things he's learned from his century-plus with Dru--how to be mentally flexible. How to see from other perspectives. That *wasn't* what he was as a human--as a human, he deliberately closed his mind off from what he didn't want to deal with and just focused on "beauty." Being forced to open his mind to alternate points of view by the extreme nature of Dru's reality both gives him a tool for manipulating others, giving him an advantage in survival, and gives him the ability to change his mind. And to just to change, period.

[> [> [> [> Re: A Return to Innocence -- Nos, 12:11:45 03/25/02 Mon

I agree that Spike pushes because he is desperate for attention. Not matter in what form, as long as people are actually aknowladging his existence. The SG treat him more like a tool than 'someone', so obviously he would lash out at them in such times. Xander put it best: (paraprashing) "Your here for muscle Spike, not colour comentary.."

And that's pretty much what it breaks down too.

[> moment of true happiness -- skeeve, 08:09:25 03/25/02 Mon

A moment of true happiness is not a gypsy euphemism for sex. The gypsies were concerned that Angel might lose his soul before he had sex with Buffy. That was why they sent Jenny. Conversely, sex with Darla didn't do the trick.
The kidnapping of Conner might very well have saved a lot of people a lot of grief. Conner might have given Angel a moment of true happiness.

[> The Plural of Apocalypse -- Sophist, 08:29:48 03/25/02 Mon

I love "Innocence" too. Nice summary of the major highlights.

Your comments about Spike wanting to end the world got me thinking. In "The Gift", Giles says that this was their 6th apocalypse. What were the others? Here's my count:

The Harvest
Prophesy Girl
Becoming II
The Zeppo
The Gift

Giles didn't consider "Innocence" to involve an apocalypse, and neither do I. The Judge failed to end the world when he first appeared at a time when the only weapons that existed were ones that were forged. He wasn't likely to succeed this time. I think Spike knew that. He was perfectly willing to cause trouble; perfectly willing to kill Buffy and all her friends. But not really willling to eliminate his own food supply.

I guess we wouldn't have known Spike's true intent with certainty until the Judge went after Sir Alex Ferguson.

[> [> A desperate attempt to dust off my laurels so that I might go back to resting on them -- d'Herblay, 09:35:41 03/25/02 Mon

Hmm . . . I considered this very issue six months ago; I came to the conclusion that as both Spike and Drusilla refer to destroying the world, and Angel in "Surprise" to bringing about Armageddon, I'd take them at their words. But it remains true that while a rocket launcher may be thinking outside the box for a slayer, it's somewhat more inboxy for the National Guard.

The essay quotes Gould, so you might like it, Sophist.

[> [> [> Great essay, d'H. Welcome back. -- Sophist, 09:58:55 03/25/02 Mon

Kafka once said that the phrase "Judgment Day" was a misnomer. "In reality, it is a summary court in perpetual session." Buffy's lucky there have been only 6. Or 7.

OT: review of "Blade II" (no plot/story spoilers) -- purplegrrl, 12:43:19 03/25/02 Mon

A friend and I went to see "Blade II" and both of us came away disappointed. Now I like Wesley Snipes and how he portrays his characters. And I like any excuse to watch Kris Kristofferson. Although shot very stylishly, "Blade II" has a severe lack of plot, plenty of gratuitous blood and guts, and too much "Matrix"-style fighting. I understand the director is a big fan of comic books. This shows in how scenes are lit, set-up, and played out. Many times I could visualize the scenes as drawings rather than film. But this did not detract from the movie. Rather it was the simplistic story, the deus ex machina element at the end, and the lack of character/relationship development (therefore failing to evoke the necessary pathos at the end) that harmed the film. Honestly, I liked "Blade" better than this movie.

But that's just my opinion.

[> Re: OT: review of "Blade II" (no plot/story spoilers) -- Methodica, 14:04:10 03/25/02 Mon

I was able to catch Blade 2 myself on friday. I however came out of the movie liking it. I have to agree that the story and plot seem to have been written by a 6 year old. But visually its a stunning movie, I think it is the closest thing in a live action movie that resembles anime.
I found the movie to be very powerful at the beginning but like the first blade movie it started to loss it at the end. On a minor point I love the concept of the Day Walker.

It is however interesting how they protray vampires in blade though. They are something that is created natually and their weakness and strengths are based on science and biology.

[> [> Re: OT: It's just too gross though ... -- Dedalus, 14:22:09 03/25/02 Mon

I don't mean that in a moral majority kind of way, more like in a I'm about to be sick way. I can watch it, but just barely. I had the same issue with Starship Troopers, although I never could quite tell the tone of that film, so I like the Blade series better. Anyway, the reapers were just horrible looking. I have no problem with the Scream films and the like, but the Reapers were just prompting me to literally look away from the screen. I found the excessive gore distracting.

I think Blade Two had the same problem as Blade, as Methodica said. The first scene was so cool and full of so much potential, the rest of it was kind of a let down. I liked it, but it had been very hyped up, so I was disappointed myself. It's also strange how that in every movie, Blade can be captured, beaten to within an inch of his life, and then fall in a vat of blood or something and instantly jump and fight entire armies.

The martial arts were very good though, if a little too CGI at times.

[> Re: OT: review of "Blade II" (no plot/story spoilers) -- Apophis, 14:33:57 03/25/02 Mon

Maybe it's just the psychologically unstable teenager in me, but I loved Blade 2. I thought it was incredible. I didn't go to it looking for an intricate, saturated-with-philosophical-insight, morally challenging plot; that's why I come here. No, I went in expecting action and violence, and I was not disappointed. It was the badest assed movie ever made.

[> [> I totally agree with Apophis -- neaux, 14:52:42 03/25/02 Mon

Blade II was the best movie I've seen that resembles a comic book storytelling. Yes some of the effects were too CG.. but overall the movie took comic book heroes to a totally new level. Hurrah to Blade II.

I also have a philosophy about movies and entertainment. I go to the movies to be entertained. NOT to Think. If I wanted to think I'd rent a movie.

Besides with movies reaching $7 a ticket here in North Carolina.. (I know its alot more in other states) I think entertainment is a MAJOR factor of what makes a good movie.

Blood + Guts + Vampires + Wrestling Moves = Entertainment!

"Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest" Annotations -- Rob, 18:20:48 03/25/02 Mon

Okay, guys, I've started to work on that "Annotated BtVS" website I posted here about a few weeks ago. And since, we're stuck in rerun hell at the moment, I thought now was probably a good time to start collecting annotations.

Here's all you gotta do...

If you have an annotation about WttH or Harvest, whether it be symbolism, a literary reference that ties into the episodes, character development...anything...please respond to this post. I'm in the process of going through the archives to get info about other eps, but if, at this moment in time, you have a great thing to say about the first ep two-parter, please respond! I really want this to be an AtPoBtVS effort, and am going to give everyone complete credit.

My goal is to put together a completely comprehensive, cross-referenced guide to the symbols, literary allusions, character development, mythology, etc etc of every episode of "Buffy," and I want a myriad of different ideas from as many people as possible. Now, if you can, I'd like to veer away from subjective criticism, so I don't want things like "I don't like this scene" but would prefer things like "This scene foreshadows a later episode..." or something along those lines. You may do analytical criticism, just try to keep it as objective as possible. Because I really want this to be a reference guide, not a collection of reviews. For example, in "Helpless," I'd like a comparison between that episode and "Little Red Riding Hood," and an analysis of all the parallels and divergences. I would not, however, want to write what I personally thought of the episode. (For the record, I loved it, but that's completely neither here nor there!)

So basically, total free reign is given to you guys here...anything ANYTHING you want to write about these two episodes! I'll use the ideas I like the best, either as printed, or reworded. Either way, you'll be given credit for your idea. Masq's even agreed to let me have a link at the top of the board's page.

I hope to have this up by July, when I'll have more time, when I'm off of college...

So...again, I implore you, please give me some annotations and help me make this a great site!

(And sorry for typing your ears off! lol)


[> Rob, can you email me??.... -- LadyStarlight, 19:11:15 03/25/02 Mon

I've been working on something that might fit well on your site. Give me a shout and we'll see, k?

[> And I just bought the season 1 DVDs... -- Traveler, 20:19:57 03/25/02 Mon

I'm not sure that I'm really qualified to comment on those episodes, because I still haven't seen most of the episodes from seasons 2-4. However, one thing that did strike me very clearly is that the first few episodes raise a lot of issues that are still being addressed in season 6. I'll check out what you've got and let you know if I have anything to add.

[> Re: "Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest" Annotations -- Kimberly, 07:55:49 03/26/02 Tue

I have to stop and do some thinking on this. One thing I have noticed: Welcome to the Hellmouth is what could be said to Buffy. It is also said to the viewer (Welcome to our new city, on the Hellmouth, so to speak.)

More thought may be coming if the brain can be put into gear.

Protecting Our Reality Against the Ever-Growing Threat of the Inter-Dimensional Growth of BtVS -- LeeAnn, 20:55:04 03/25/02 Mon

The Conspirator's Guide to the Buffyverse: Did Joss Whedon Create BtVS?

Normal Again and the Threat to the Buffyverse

An Attempt at a Trans-Dimensional Analysis of our Benefactor and Suggestions for the Protection of Our Reality Against the Ever- Growing Threat of the Inter-Dimensional Growth of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Great Essay on Normal Again and altered realities.
Really fantastic!!

[> ah to be a pawn. let's see.... superb. that's it. superb essay. thanks. )no text to speak of) -- yuri, 01:49:40 03/26/02 Tue

one below

every verse I spark deserves teh purple heart

you can't get with the
cold tempertchah
one below turn the ?
it's purple
like the arctic circle

binary *

no relevance.

this won't happen again.

we concoct the rock

[> [> Or prawn... thanks for posting the link -- ponygirl, 07:20:25 03/26/02 Tue

[> This is the most beautiful thing I've ever read. -- Apophis, 06:45:27 03/26/02 Tue

[> Re: Protecting Our Reality Against the Ever-Growing Threat of the Inter-Dimensional Growth of BtVS -- Kimberly, 07:39:15 03/26/02 Tue

Thanks for the link. I love trying to force my head around stuff like this.

[> If you read it and like it leave the guy a review :) -- LeeAnn, 09:57:00 03/26/02 Tue

[> Re: Protecting Our Reality Against the Ever-Growing Threat of the Inter-Dimensional Growth of BtVS -- Buffyboy, 13:33:37 03/26/02 Tue

"The world is doomed" -Giles

Flaws in thinking (spoilers for Spiral) -- Vegeta, 09:28:58 03/26/02 Tue

I have been watching my tape archive with some freinds and noticed some really flawed thinking on the part of the Knights (not shocking I suppose). In Spiral when Buffy is getting information from the General of the Knights, he tells her all about how the key is the link and it must be destroyed... He tells her how Glory is trapped in a mortal man, and if he were killed Glory would die, blah, blah...

My friends and I were wondering why the Knights were so hell bent to find and destroy the key, besides God telling them too. I mean, if they already knew Glory was in the body of a man and if they killed him the 'beast' would die, why look for the key. Honestly, they knew less about the key (what it was disguised as: object, person ...), so wouldn't it be easier to hunt down where the beast was hidden. They already knew it was a male human, the key could be anything.

I am sure this was discussed in great detail when the episode originally aired, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

We were also perplexed by Glory's statement in TWOTW, when she said she was "the original one eyed chicklet in the kingdom of the blind". Probably crazy talk...

[> About Glory... -- Forsaken, 12:30:29 03/26/02 Tue

Glory's rantings and ravings come from the old statement that "In the kingdom of the blind, the man with one eye is king."

Ain't Love Grand? Spike & Courtly Love -- Yoda, 09:47:02 03/26/02 Tue

Really interesting essay on Spike's journey.

[> This is wonderful. Everyone should read it. -- Sophist, 10:20:44 03/26/02 Tue

[> Thanks for posting this-let's hope for a sequel at the end of season 6 -- AurraSing, 11:02:17 03/26/02 Tue

[> Re: Ain't Love Grand? Spike & Courtly Love -- leslie, 11:05:42 03/26/02 Tue

Also interesting in that the time when the mortal William lived (late nineteenth century England) was also a time of great interest in medieval themes and especially courtly love, as expressed in Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_. So consciously or unconsciously, Spike's bent towards a courtly love paradigm seems to be another holdover from his human self.

[> Excellent Essay. -- Ian, 14:11:30 03/26/02 Tue

[> In Defense of Courtly Love -- Malandanza, 14:34:21 03/26/02 Tue

I have some problems with Spike as a Courtly Lover. While the essay points out some similarities between our favorite unredeemed vampire and the heroes of the early Arthurian romances, the differences are rather glaring. As I see it, the knights of the old romances tried to make themselves worthy of the love of their ladies by performing daring feats and winning battles. They wanted to raise themselves to the level of their loves, not degrade their loves until the women were on the same level as themselves.

In the Vulgate Cycle, the king of the Land Laid Waste is a practical person: he had been in love once, but had put an end to it. He knew that one could not both lead a long life and be in love, for a knight in love is always striving to prove his worth to his lady and, eventually, his actions must lead to his death. Furthermore, knights who were continually rejected by their ladies in spite of the proofs of their courage would often take risks that were guaranteed to kill them -- ending their existence rather than suffering (in the same book, a knight who is distressed by continual rebuffs heads out into combat unarmored to die).

We even see Lancelot, deprived of the queen's love, begin losing tournaments where he had previously always been victorious. Not only does a woman's love inspire a knight and, in effect, make him worthy of her love, but the loss of her love reduces him.

How does this relate to Spike? We never see him performing good deeds except when he is around Buffy -- he does not strive to prove himself worthy, he only wishes to seem so in her eyes. Where the knights genuinely desire to improve their condition so they can be worthy of love, Spike reverts to selfish evil when Buffy is out of sight (thus, the eggs in his basement). What about the loss of love? What effect did that have on Spike? So far, not much. After his breakup with Dru, he spent his time drunk, weeping, or plotting revenge on those he believed to be responsible -- why no tears for Buffy? Doesn't she rate at least a lost-weekend?

Then there's the obedience. The courtly knights obey their lovers without question. In The Knight of the Cart, Lancelot hesitates before climbing into a cart (an ignominious for of travel) while pursuing Guinevere's abductor -- briefly placing his honor above his love for the queen. When the queen berates him for this moment (although how she knew about it is beyond me) and banishes him from her presence, he meekly accepts his punishment, weeping because he proved himself unworthy of her love. Similarly, in Yvain (the Knight with the Lion), Yvain is permitted to attend a tournament, but is told he must return by a certain day:

"I grant you leave until a certain date; but be sure that my love will change to hate if you stay beyond the term that I shall fix. Remember that I shall keep my word; if you break your word I will keep mine. If you wish to possess my love, and if you have any regard for me, remember to come back again at the latest a year from the present date a week after St. John's day; for to-day is the eighth day since that feast. You will be checkmated of my love if you are not restored to me on that day."

Yvain agrees to the terms, but accidentally overstays his time. He does not plead against the arbitrary demands of his lady; he realizes that he has failed her:

"Senseless and deprived of speech, Yvain is unable to reply. And the damsel steps forth and takes the ring from his finger, commending to God the King and all the others except him, whom she leaves in deep distress. And his sorrow grows on him: he feels oppressed by what he hears, and is tormented by what he sees. He would rather be banished alone in some wild land, where no one would know where to seek for him, and where no man or woman would know of his whereabouts any more than if he were in some deep abyss. He hates nothing so much as he hates himself, nor does he know to whom to go for comfort in the death he has brought upon himself. But he would rather go insane than not take vengeance upon himself, deprived, as he is, of joy through his own fault. He rises from his place among the knights, fearing he will lose his mind if he stays longer in their midst. On their part, they pay no heed to him, but let him take his departure alone. They know well enough that he cares nothing for their talk or their society. And he goes away until he is far from the tents and pavilions. Then such a storm broke loose in his brain that he loses his senses; he tears his flesh and, stripping off his clothes, he flees across the meadows and fields, leaving his men quite at a loss, and wondering what has become of him."

Compare these examples with Spike -- when has he ever obeyed one of Buffy's commands (or even a reasonable request)? No, the Courtly Lover never blames his love; the fault is always his and his alone for failing his love. For Spike, it is different -- he is right and his "truelove" is insane; she toys with him, torments him for her own amusement, uses him then casts him aside -- whether these accusations are true or not, the Courtly Lover would never give them credence.

I was astonished that The Book of the Courtier was used to defend Courtly Love. Castiglione, in the guise of Pietro Bembo, declares Courtly (sensual) Love to be the lowest form of love.

"Lovers of this kind, therefore, are always most unhappy; for either they never attain their desires, and this causes them great misery, or if they do attain them they find themselves in terrible distress, and their wretchedness is even greater. For both at the beginning and during the course of this love of theirs they never know other than anguish, torment, sorrow, exertion and distress; and so lovers, it is supposed, must be characterized by paleness and dejection, continuous sighings and weepings, mournfulness and lamentations, silences and the desire for death."

Although he does add:

"in my opinion although sensual love is bad at every age, yet in the young it may be excused and perhaps in some sense even permitted. for although it brings them afflictions, dangers and exertions and all the unhappiness we have mentioned, yet there are many who perform worthy acts in order to win the favour of the women whom they love, and though these acts are not directed to a good end they are good in themselves. And so from the bitterness they extract a little sweetness, and the adversities they endure finally teach them the error of their ways."

Of course, Cardinal Bembo had his own Courtly Lover when he was younger -- he preserved love letters from Lucretia Borgia (and also copies of his own letters to Lucretia) along with a lock of her golden hair :) The scene continues with a discussion of why old men shouldn't chase after young girls (even if their bodies are in excellent condition) and whether ugly girls are less chaste than beautiful ones -- it's very amusing.

Spike's offer to kill his former love to please his new love was a grand, melodramatic gesture (although I'm not sure I recall any knights who murdered their ex-girlfriends to prove their love) -- except that he didn't kill Dru, did he? He wanted to be sure. There was a condition -- first Buffy had to say she'd love him -- or he'd free Dru and let her kill Buffy. Not exactly romantic. Buffy's response was perfect.

Spike as stalkerboy is more in keeping with the Gothic Romances of Radcliffe and her imitators. Lancelot never stood outside the Queen's bedchamber watching her "shag" King Cardboard, nor did he swipe a pair of the royal panties or dress up a peasant girl like the queen. Although saying Spike is Valancourt is still a bit of a stretch -- yes, Radcliffe's heroes spend their time weeping and writing poetry and are unworthy of the heroines, but they do not deprecate their loves the way Spike does -- nor is there the Iago-esque manipulations.

Finally, If Spike were really a Courtly Lover, I doubt he'd have a following. He really would be the slayer's lapdog, dutiful and loyal, kind and considerate, striving for perfection so he would be worthy of her -- if Buffy needs "a little monster in her man" she certainly wouldn't want such person in her life.

[> Interesting article.. but I honestly thought it read "Spike & Courtney Love" at first glance -- neaux, 14:56:49 03/26/02 Tue

[> Very interesting. Thanks, Yoda. -- Ixchel, 16:16:21 03/26/02 Tue

Rob's WttH annotation project -- fresne, 10:06:34 03/26/02 Tue

Well, that disappeared into archive fast.

So, to get thing rolling again (some of these are probably pretty obvious) here are some annotations to WttH:
1. WttH opens with a classic horror movie scene. Teenage couple break into a forbidden place (here the school after hours). There are strong intimations that they are going to have sex, which is a big, now you're going to die in horror movies. The girl hears a noise and the boy reassures her that there is no one there, which draws the viewer into the expectation that a creature will now jump out and kill them. Except the girl is the killing creature. Thus within minutes, ME clearly establishes the series vision, things are not what they seem.
2. Cordelia would kill to live in LA. In Angel, she moves to LA.
3. Cordelia's comment about the softer side of Sears is a reference to an add campaign by Sears.
4. The picture which Giles shows Buffy as an example of the way the world used to be is a woodcut by Gustave Dore from Dante's Inferno Canto XXVIII. This is a level in the Malebolge (intestines) of Hell, where sinners who caused strife are condemned to be eternaly flayed by an unseen demon.
5. When Giles says (paraphrase) "the world did not begin as a paradise." this is a reference to Genesis.
6. Angel gives Buffy a cross in a box. This is both foreshadowing that he is a vampire, he doesn't touch the cross, and refers to classic vampire lore, crosses hurt vampires.
7. There are numerous references throughout the episode to the events of the movie. e.g., the interview with Principal Flutie, the first conversation with Cordelia, the conversation at the Bronze with Giles, etc.
8. In the scene at the Bronze, Giles believes that Buffy should have a mystic ability to identify vampires. She does not, other than her keen fashion sense. This is contrary to the movie, where Buffy got cramps when she came near a vampire, which could have been awkward in the series. Although of course, as in the movie, Buffy does use her keen fashion sense for good and not evil.

[> The thread that wouldn't die is taking up main board kB -- Masq : ), 10:20:10 03/26/02 Tue

unasked questions -- skeeve, 11:18:51 03/26/02 Tue

Not all unasked questions, just some unasked questions that I would have expected at least some of the characters to ask.

How does the WC find uncalled slayers? Called slayers? Who is the next currently uncalled slayer? Presumably Giles knows, but the rest of the gang hasn't asked. How many slayers are there now?

Why did The Master leave bones behind after being staked? Are used vampire bones dangerous? This one came back to bite them.

What happened to the demon that ate the town of Sharpsville mentioned in Graduation? Such a creature would seem to be rather conspicuous. Apparently it's not around anymore. Did it move to Hawaii and get killed by a volcano? It might have grown old and died in the following eight centuries. If not, 'twould have been nice to know what killed it.
Same questions for the ascendee that Anya saw.

What effect would Buffy's menstrual blood, if any, have on Spike? Spike is probably the only one interested in this question and he might be more inclined to experiment than to ask.

Is `killer of the dead', the poison that almost killed Angel, harmful to humans? If not, can it be produced in quantity and is it safe enough to put in the water like flouride?

Has Buffy been an especially busy slayer? How many apocalypses have her predecessors had to stop? My recollection is that Buffy had to stop at least four and they were close calls each time. If slayers generally have been as busy stopping apocalypses as Buffy, how come the world is still here? Have we really been that lucky? If not, why is Buffy so busy?

[> Re: unasked questions -- Forsaken, 11:40:56 03/26/02 Tue

I can't answer most of your questions (all of which are interesting by the way). The only one I can answer is the last, why has Buffy been so busy with apocolypse. I think it has something to do with these being the "end years." I don't remember which show it was on, either Angel or Buffy season one (I do remember it was that show's first season) they said that these were the "end years." I think it was when Giles was first looking through the Codex, but I'm not sure. You have to admit that's a term that sounds like it'll be especially rich in apocolypse.

Oh and btw: What effect would Buffy's menstrual blood, if any, have on Spike? --- can we all say EWW?

[> [> EWW -- skeeve, 12:31:01 03/26/02 Tue

Forsaken: Oh and btw: What effect would Buffy's menstrual blood, if any, have on Spike? --- can we all say EWW?

On Spike. The question was about the effect on Spike.

Here is the one that was supposed to be implied by the others: Why didn't they ask?

Can Spike say EWW?

[> [> [> When you're... intimate with a vampire, these things come up. -- Apophis, 14:32:54 03/26/02 Tue

[> My take, for whatever it's worth... -- Darby, 11:47:03 03/26/02 Tue

According to Fray (and maybe supported by Justine on Angel), Slayers are born with their abilities - it's unclear what happens when they get "Chosen," but perhaps the WC is on the lookout for girls with unusual physical gifts (I imagine scouts at the Junior Olympics, carrying binoculars, stopwatches, and clipboards with tweed backing). And in some cultures, like that of the Rastafarian Leprechauns, there seems to be some general knowledge of such things. The calling itself seems a somewhat random process, which the WC seems able to track - they didn't know about Buffy until she had been called, but then found her fairly quickly.

Several things change about vampires if they stay undead long enough - it's kind of implied that, along with starting to look like animals and maybe losing the ability to look human, their bones go through changes too. That's an inference, though.

All questions about previous monsters and apocalyses are better left unasked. Maybe Buffy is a barely average Slayer after all. Maybe if she let the WC run her life, things wouldn't get to such states as often. See? Don't wanna go there...

The term "menstrual blood" is largely a misnomer - if all goes as designed, what "flows" is lining tissue. There may be enough blood to make the question legitimate - but is it a legitimate question?

The poison question goes in the box labelled "If they really want to do away with vampires, why don't they..." It's a pretty big box.

[> Re: unasked questions -- Apophis, 14:41:41 03/26/02 Tue

We know that the WC employs alchemists; why not seers and psychics as well? They would be helpful in finding future slayers. That and the vast library of prophecies one assumes they have (I don't think they gave all of them to Giles).
As for the Master's bones: I figure, since vampires get more powerful (and inhuman) as they age (evidenced by the Master's appearance, the strength he used to pitch Angelus around his lair, and his mindcontrol powers), the Master developed a degree of invulnerability. Not enough to save his unlife, but enough to render his bones strong enough to survive his physical destruction. This begs the question: If a vampire lived long enough, would he become tough enough to survive the proven methods of vampire extermination? The Master could resist the cross for a time and there's the bones thing; Kakistos' skin was dense enough to turn a normal stake. If a vampire existed, say, 10,000 years, how tough would s/he be? What about the first vampire?

argh! all that time writing & the thread is gone! (so, sorry, the "right wing" thread rises again) -- anom, 17:05:52 03/26/02 Tue

OK, not the most promising subject line. Maybe I shouldn't start things up again, but I don't want all my time & effort to go to waste. So with some misgivings, I post again. My original subject line was: "hey, look who's back! (& yes, i'll talk etymology...& religion)" (in reply to d'Herblay's post "Etymologies").

Hi, d'Herb! Glad to see you back on the board. Hope you had a great trip.

"Not only are such things as chemistry, algebra, algorithms and alcohol benefits of this trade...."

And part of the reason we got those words from Arabic is that most of them refer to fields that were greatly advanced under Islam during the time of its greatest flowering. (Not sure about alcohol, since Islam prohibits drinking it, but it could be either because you have to refer to something by name to prohibit it--a good way to get it into the languages of people who don't--or because it comes under chemistry. (BTW, d'Herb, did we get that by way of alchemy? That al- sure looks like it.)

"Now this may not convince anyone of the debts we owe to Medieval Islam; in fact, it may add up to one big fat zero (Ar. sifr)...."

This may: an interview with Bernard Lewis about his latest book, What Went Wrong? It describes the peak (maybe the rise too--I've only heard the interview) & fall of Islamic civilization (& no, LeeAnn, that's not a contradiction in terms). It's available at; unfortunately, the URL for the specific page doesn't show, so click Listen at the bottom left, scroll down & click on New York & Company, & then scroll down to Tuesday's show & choose the 1st segment. A couple of examples: Those advances I mentioned above? They were being made under Islam when Europe was in the Dark Ages. And married Muslim women had property rights when no such thing existed in Christian societies. (Oops, I guess that really belongs in a different subthread, but my time is own religion--in the form I observe it in, that is--requires rigorous cleaning before Passover, & I don't have time to address all the issues I'd like to.) This doesn't negate the, um, less enlightened things about Islam, but (1) judging all of Islam throughout its history by the version imposed by the rulers of Saudi Arabia is like judging all of Christianity by the Spanish Inquisition, & (2) almost every religion has unenlightened aspects. Uh-oh--& I'm off again--gotta go clean!

Except, 1 more question: sifr looks closer to cipher than to zero--does the latter word really come from Arabic? Or just the former?...not to mention, um, the whole concept!

Dawn - Buffy’s Other Half? Sister? Child? (very long, spoilers) -- Yoda, 18:07:08 03/26/02 Tue

[Shadowkat at The Buffy Cross & Stake posted the following wonderful analysis at that site and I am reprinting it here.]

Dawn - Buffy's Other Half? Sister? Child?

First Thanks to the Board Mama, AngelX for her hard work and for putting up with my long posts. Also Thank you to the other posters who gave me the idea.

(Also may allude to future episodes.)

Who is Dawn?? Besides the annoying, whining, irritating brat the audience would like to throw off the cliff. (And oh yes, besides the key – yes I know she’s the key – I just think there’s more going on here. So bear with me.) I’ve been thinking a lot about Dawn lately – like why is she so annoying and why do the writers feel the need to emphasize this? Something James Marsters said in one of his many interviews got me thinking – he said that Joss Whedon and ME don’t let anything slip by them, everything they do has a purpose. And Joss wanted us to hate Dawn, to dislike Dawn, so we’d feel her alienation, how she feels separated from everyone, including the audience. “The ultimate outsider.” Interesting. The Ultimate Outsider. Isn’t that how every teenager feels? But what if it’s more than that – what if – Dawn is representative of Buffy’s feelings of alienation? What if Dawn is the part of Buffy that isn’t the slayer, the emotional part, the child, the innocent, the alienated teen?? The abandoned girl???

To Buffy – Dawn is her sister. She is first introduced at the end of Buffy vs. Dracula as just that, her sister. Buffy goes upstairs – looks at Dawn and asks who are you? And Joyce says – Buffy look after your sister. Later we learn in NO PLACE LIKE HOME that monks took a mystical key, gave it flesh and sent it to Buffy in the form of a sister. As Giles puts it in the book Dawn and Spike discover in Bloodties: "The monks possessed the ability to transform energy, bend reality…(edited for length) They had to be certain the Slayer would protect it with her life. So they sent the key to her ... in human form. In the form of a sister."

Sister. Interesting word. My sister self. My other self. My little shadow. My twin. When a parent loses a child, the parent feels as if a part of themselves has been stripped away, and the ache never fades. The child is part of them. What happens when you lose a sibling? A sister? I can only speak for myself on this – but I remember when my Aunt died, my mother felt as if a part of her had gone, yet was still there in her heart. The sister self. The other self. Hmmm. Perhaps I’m reaching.

It’s interesting how they introduce Dawn in the Real Me. The scene starts with Buffy meditating. Giles tells her “You are the center. And within you, there is the core of your being ... of what you are. Find it ... breathe into it. Focus inward. Let the world fall away ... fall away ... fall away....” Then Dawn appears, disrupts the crystals. Everything tumbles. And she says, “Can we go now?” This scene reminded me of two other scenes – one in Helpless, where Giles saps Buffy’s strength while she is under hypnosis, making her as helpless as a girl and then again in Restless where Giles is hypnotizing a childlike Buffy. I think this was on purpose.

Before Dawn appeared, in Season 1-4, Buffy seemed strong and weak, she seemed to be two girls. The alienated teen and the slayer. Tough on the outside. Marshmallowy in the center. In Season 5 – the metaphors all appear to be about duality or the split, left brain vs. right brain, heart vs. mind, male vs. female, child vs. adult, slayer vs. innocent girl, prom queen popularity gal and normal guy vs. alienated slayer and vampire – the metaphors are endless. And this is the Season that they introduce Dawn?

Let’s look at the REPLACEMENT – very interesting episode, it occurs right after the REAL ME. It focuses on Xander but it seems to echo the themes of the entire season. And – what I find particularly interesting is the inside joke (apparently according to interviews with NB – his twin brother played the other role). Xander is split into two people, who are completely different parts of himself and act a lot like brothers, they want to kill each other, then they think they are cool. But – the split was supposed to happen to Buffy, Xander pushed her out of the way of the blast and took it instead. Here’s what Giles says it was meant to do to Buffy:

BUFFY: Two Buffys?
GILES: Yes. One with all the qualities inherent in Buffy Summers, and the other one with everything that belongs to the slayer alone ... the, uh, the-the strength, the, uh, speed, the heritage. And when it hit Xander, I think it separated him into his strongest points and his (grimaces) weakest.
RILEY: But which one's the real one?
GILES: They're both real. They're both Xander. Neither one of them is evil. There's nothing in either of them that our Xander doesn't already possess.
RILEY: I still don't get the original plan. I mean, why do it? The slayer half would be like slayer concentrate, pretty unkillable.
GILES: But the two halves can't exist without each other. Kill the weaker Buffy half, and the slayer half dies.

Interesting. What if this has already happened? Not completely. I’m not saying that Buffy isn’t whole – she is, that was established. Nor am I saying that if Dawn dies, Buffy does. We know that’s not true from the Gift. No – I think its more ironic than that and clever – the monks took a portion of Buffy to create Dawn. DNA? Flesh? Soul? Blood? So that Dawn has effectively become Buffy’s child self, the part that is still innocent, helpless, not a slayer. The central self, if you will. They did not create Dawn from Joyce. As Joyce says at the end of LISTENING TO FEAR (edited for length and emphasis): “Dawn... She's not ... mine, is she? She's ... she does belong to us, though. And she's important. To the world. Precious. As precious as you are to me. Then we have to take care of her. Buffy, promise me. If anything happens, if I don't come through this- No matter what she is, she still feels like my daughter. I have to know that you'll take care of her, that you'll keep her safe. That you'll love her like I love you.”

Precious. Precious to the world. You can read this dialogue several ways. That’s the great thing about BvTs. But if you will bear with me – I think that the line “she still feels like my daughter” is just as important. They both are her daughter. Dawn is part of Buffy, and part of Joyce via Buffy. And if anything happened to Dawn it would destroy Buffy, because in a sense she’d be losing a portion of herself. Spike, oddly enough, senses this in Intervention: “'Cause Buffy ... the other, not so pleasant Buffy ... anything happened to Dawn, it'd destroy her.” This statement amazes Buffy. He gets it. (More on Spike and how he’s used later.)
Buffy herself gives voice to this idea in The Gift:

GILES: (whispers) She's not your sister.
BUFFY: (pause) No. She's not. She's more than that. She's me. The monks made her out of me. I hold her ... and I feel closer to her than ... (looks down, sighs) It's not just the memories they built. It's physical. Dawn ... is a part of me. The only part that I- (stops)

The only part that what? The only part worth saving? The only part she feels that is worthwhile? The human part? In Buffy vs. Dracula , Buffy has been out hunting a lot. She is afraid of what she is becoming. She appears to be becoming the uberslayer. A lot of posters think ME dropped the whole slayer storyline in Season 5, I beg to differ. I think they explored it in a different way through the split. They split off the child – forcing Buffy to be the adult, forcing Buffy to deal with the darker more adult half of herself, while still having to pay attention to the alienated, abandoned, innocent child. Because that’s the problem with becoming an adult, there’s that dang inner child inside that is still screaming about old wrongs, being ignored, and rehashing all your fears. Look at who the big bad is in Season 5? Glory/Ben = as one poster put it, quite brilliantly by the way, Glory is the popular girl personified, uber-Cordelia, and Ben is the normal, life saving hunk personified – uber- Riley. And they inhabit the same body. These two represent Buffy’s dream. Who she once was = Glory. The man she could have had =Ben. And both are amoral monsters and they kidnap and try to destroy Dawn, the child self, the part of Buffy that should still want those things. But Dawn sees through them – she doesn’t want Ben/Glory – she wants Spike/Buffy. To Dawn – Ben has become the monster. Buffy is also polarized = she is placed with Dawn – her child self and Spike – dark slayer self (symbolized by Dracula early on).

Spike/Buffy? What? You’ve lost it Shadowkat! I can see Dawn/Buffy. But Spike/Buffy too? Well bear with me - Notice who goes up to the catwalk and fights Doc? Spike and Buffy, both alone and both fail in different ways. Spike fails in stopping Doc. Buffy arrives too late. Buffy asks Spike to protect Dawn for her. She is in a sense asking the dark/demonic shadow self to protect the innocent(light)/human self. She is both – they are her mirrors and when she leaves – they must protect each other, because she doesn’t expect the others too.
Okay now let’s move onto Dawn’s odd relationship with Spike. It surprised me that the writers went this route. And I think it is very important. – not for what it says about Spike so much as what it says about Dawn and by extension Buffy. I believe Spike in Season 5 (and possibly Season 6) – is often (not always) used to represent Buffy’s dark side. The shadow self. The slayer. Has anyone else noticed that when Spike and Dawn are together – Buffy is seldom present and when Buffy/Spike are together Dawn isn’t present? Also why on earth did Buffy leave Dawn and her mother with Spike in Checkpoint?

Here’s the scene:
SPIKE: (surprised) So, what's with the family outing?
BUFFY: (quietly, walking up close to him) I need your help.
SPIKE: Great. I need your cash.
BUFFY: I'm serious. (even more quietly) You have to look after them.
SPIKE: Well, that's a boatload of manly responsibility to come flying out of nowhere. What's the matter, Slayer? You're not feeling a hundred percent?
BUFFY: (frowns) No.
SPIKE: (frowns) They didn't put a chip in your head, did they?
SPIKE: Be funny if they did.
BUFFY: (annoyed) Spike, I need an answer. Now. In or out? (quietly) You're the only one strong enough to protect them.
SPIKE: (looks at her for a moment) All right then. (calls to Joyce and Dawn) Ladies... (walks toward them; Buffy follows) Come on in. There's plenty of blood in the fridge.

Apparently Spike doesn’t understand why either. But I think I know – he’s her shadow self. She knows somewhere deep down that of everyone she knows Spike would die before anything happened to Joyce or Dawn. It’s instinctual. But I’m digressing here – back to the Buffy/Dawn parallel. Spike clearly sees Dawn as part of Buffy – and he goes to great effort to protect her as such.

In Forever, Spike decides to help Dawn resurrect Joyce. It’s interesting that Spike is there for Dawn while Angel is there for Buffy. Both meet the girls by their mother’s graves in a cemetery. One is dreamlike. One nightmarish. Spike refers to Dawn at least once in the episode as “Well, what do you know. Bitty Buffy.”

Prior to this scene in Crush – Dawn visits Spike’s tomb, partly because she knows her sister would be upset about it and partly because she’s attracted to him. The innocent girl attracted to the shadow self. Here’s the scene between Buffy and Dawn after they leave his crypt:

BUFFY: You have a crush on him.
DAWN: No I don't! It's just, (giggles) he's got cool hair, and he wears cool leather coats and stuff. (stops smiling) And he doesn't treat me like an alien.
BUFFY: He's a killer, Dawn. You cannot have a crush on something that is ... dead, and, and evil, and a vampire.
DAWN: Right, that's why you were never with Angel for three years.
BUFFY: (quietly) Angel's different. He has a soul.
DAWN: Spike has a chip. Same diff.

One wonders if Buffy deep inside isn’t thinking the same thing? Except Adult Buffy has been taught otherwise. A chip to adult Buffy does not equal a soul. The innocent child – sees the shadow self as safe, he has a chip, and even if he didn’t he wouldn’t hurt her. The shadow self – the vampire lover – the masculine – would no more hurt Dawn than Ben can truly hurt Glory.

Enough on shadow selves – could be reaching a bit on that metaphor, not sure. So let’s go back to Buffy/Dawn and talk about the scene in Season 5 that really highlights the split between adult (slayer) and innocent (child). It is a controversial scene in the episode of BvTS that continues to be, IMHO, the best episode on death on TV ever. In The Body – Buffy has to deal with the death of her mother. The episode does not have any vampires or demons or creatures of the dark until the very end. When a friend of mine saw it – she said that the episode was great except for the vampire in the final scene – why did they do that! She believed it was b/c they had to be horror. I think there was another reason.

Dawn has just wandered into the morgue to see for herself that her mother is really dead. As Buffy puts it – “Dawn doesn’t believe me.” Dawn is in the first stage of grief denial. Buffy’s child self, the innocent, cannot fathom the mother being gone. As she is about to lift the sheet, a vampire (or death?) leaps up to attack. Buffy comes into the morgue just in time and as she is fighting the vampire, the camera shifts to Dawn, who is looking up at the Gurney at her dead mother. Dawn is not involved in fighting the vampire. Only Buffy is. Who is in the scene? The vampire (Buffy’s shadow self/death), Buffy (adult), Dawn (child) and Joyce’s body or body of the mother. The shadow self or dark side of the slayer attempts to kill the innocent child – seeing one’s mother die is a death of innocence. A death of childhood. A friend once told me – that when his mother died, he felt older suddenly, an adult, no longer a child. There was no one to take care of him. Joss Whedon has said that he uses demons as metaphors – in this case he’s using a vampire to symbolize the dark rage in Buffy, the shadow self, (maybe even Buffy’s guilt at being unable to save her mother?), death personified. Buffy kills the vampire before it can touch the innocent child who is in the process of touching Joyce’s corpse. Who is in the process of discovering the meaning of death for the first time. If the vampire is representative of Buffy’s shadow self, her rage at death, perhaps it is trying to destroy the child before it can touch death, before it can break through the denial and find out that death is real? Or maybe – the vampire is death, and Buffy in killing it is protecting the child from it? Either way – the scene is a powerful one.

At any rate the way this scene ends – Buffy is in the background and Dawn is in the foreground, with Joyce’s corpse above them both.

“Slowly, Dawn pulls herself up to a kneeling position so she can see Joyce's face. Joyce's eyes are still open. We stay on this shot with Joyce in the foreground, Dawn immediately behind her, and Buffy in the background still sitting on the floor.
DAWN: (not taking her eyes off Joyce) Is she cold?
BUFFY: (whispering) It's not her ... it's not her ... she's gone.
DAWN: (frowns slightly) Where'd she go?
Dawn lifts her hand and reaches out, very slowly.
Close shot of Joyce's head with Dawn's hand moving slowly toward her cheek.”

The scene almost looks like a triple reflection: Joyce/Dawn/Buffy, the dead mother, the innocent child, the adult. Forever also examines this theme with Buffy and Dawn when Dawn does a resurrection spell to bring back Joyce. Interestingly enough in this episode – it is Dawn who rips the photograph in half, effectively letting her mother go. While Buffy races to the door shouting Mommy. The child has finally accepted the mother’s death, while the adult Buffy wants to hold on because as Buffy puts it: “Well, who's gonna be if I'm not? Huh, Dawn? Have you even thought about that? Who's gonna make things better? (crying harder) Who's gonna take care of us?”

Let’s move onto Season 6, before adult Buffy is brought back to life, child Buffy (DAWN) is having the sunny existence. She has the cool older brother/boyfriend in Spike, the cool parents in Tara/Willow, and a friend in Xander. Then – Buffy’s friends – Xander and Willow decide to bring Buffy back. They do not tell Dawn or for that matter Buffy’s shadow self, Dawn’s caretaker, Spike. Always found that interesting. Although it does make sense. If Buffy came back wrong – Spike and Dawn wouldn’t let them do anything to her. They also might have argued against it.
Now that Buffy is back, she barely acknowledges Dawn. The child self she pushes away and attempts to ignore. The child self at first accepts this, doesn’t push, is in the background. But in Afterlife – Dawn does spout fire – so there is foreshadowing that the child will not stay ignored for long, anyone who has kids knows this to be a fact. Children do not like to be ignored. Instead Buffy goes to visit her shadow self – the dark half, the masculine other. As the months pass by, we see her spending more and more time with this part of herself, the dark part, the killer, the slayer. It’s more comfortable for her. Dealing with the child, means looking at certain things about herself, her life, her death – the literal death of childhood – symbolized as one poster put it by the leap she took off the tower, the tower of youth? She has to be the grownup with all the responsibilities that entails. It is easier to escape into the shadows, into the darkness, with the shadow self or if you will death. Remember in BvTs – vampires are metaphors for death. Even Spike refers to himself as “dead” or “you’re only here because I’m dead”. He lives in a crypt. He can’t be out in sunlight. She is in a way visiting her grave – escaping from life, escaping from the child.

In All The Way – the child flirts with death. And death flirts with the child. When Buffy the adult shows up flanked by her shadow self (Spike) the irony is palpable.

DAWN: Oh, like you've never fallen for a vampire?
BUFFY: That was different.
DAWN: It always is when it's you.

Buffy flirts with death every day. Her innocent/child self/sister – Dawn – is almost mocking her. Yet Dawn kills the boy, just as he’s about to kiss/bite her, the child isn’t willing to embrace death just yet. The very next episode is OMWF and in that episode, the child is beginning to get tired of being ignored by its adult self. Here’s what Dawn sings in OMWF: “ Does anybody even notice? Does anybody even care?” Indeed, does anyone? Buffy doesn’t. Not really. She expects Giles, Tara, the others to take care of the child just as they did when she was dead.

But the child is getting tired of being ignored. Just as the bills. The adult/live world is getting tired of it. Even the shadow self/Spike is beginning to complain, and acting more like a separate character actually than the a shadow self – so maybe we should kick him out of this metaphor. But before we do, I think both want Buffy to live, to accept responsibility, because without Buffy integrating them – the innocent child/shadow self are relegated to half lives.

One final episode to examine - Older and Far Away. Older and Far Away deals with Dawn’s frustration at constantly being left alone. She feels that no one cares for her. Older and Far Away also refers to Buffy – who feels older and far away from her loved ones, the episode is after all dealing with Buffy’s 21st birthday, the day that you leave childhood behind. Older and Far Away is a line from the last page of JG Ballard’s novel EMPIRE OF THE SUN about a boy who lost his family in pre-world war II Shanghai and is not reunited with them until years after the war. By the time he is, he is so changed by his experiences and they by theirs, that they are all both older and far away. What an apt description of how Buffy feels. Here is this child screaming at her from a distance – pay attention to me! Stay with me! But Buffy can’t hear the child – she is distracted. And it’s not just Buffy that’s ignoring Dawn – its her friends – the impromptu family at the beginning of Bargaining Part I: Spike, Xander, Willow and Tara – all of whom follow Buffy up to her room after they discover she may have had something to do with them being locked in the house. This is what Dawn says in reply to Xander, Tara and Willow’s comments. Oh notice that Spike – the shadow self – remains silent, but is there in the background, dressed entirely in black.

DAWN: God! I didn't do anything! I wish I had. (Buffy frowning) I'm glad you're trapped. (very angrily) How else can I get anybody to spend any time with me?
BUFFY: Dawn. If you want us to spend time with you-
DAWN: I don't. Get out. Get out. Get out!

They all leave her bedroom except Buffy. But they feel the rage. Rage that can barely be contained any longer as is represented by the demon lurking in the walls. The demon oddly enough is brought into the house by Buffy and is released by a spell that they are using to get out of the house. Instead of getting out, they’ve released the demon (Buffy’s rage). And the rage attacks the people Buffy is the most furious at with its sword. So it’s not Dawn’s rage that was brought into the house, or Dawn’s rage that is released, it’s the adult, Buffy’s. Dawn’s rage is what keeps them inside. Dawn’s rage is expressed through the wish and the jewelry that she is constantly stealing from Anya. (Brief digression here: Why Anya by the way? Could it be that Dawn is reflecting Buffy’s dislike of Anya? Notice how Anya always treats Dawn as a child? Anya is Xander’s girlfriend and Dawn had a crush on Xander? It is odd that the person, Dawn dislikes the most, is the one who forces the vengence demon, Dawn invoked, to release them from the house. Just as it is ironic that the person, Buffy, is the most angry at (Spike), is the one who helps Buffy defeat the demon she has brought into the house. Sorry about that. Older and Far Away is an incredibly complicated episode.)

It is at the end of Older and Far Away that Buffy finally acknowledges Dawn’s needs. She agrees to stay behind with her child self, letting everyone else exit. Oh notice who leaves last and holds open the door. What Spike does in the last scene is very interesting, particularly if he is the metaphor for Buffy’s shadow self. He throws the door open when Buffy asks if he thinks they can get out. He waits until everyone is gone, exchanges a look with adult Buffy and Dawn and then exits. Almost as if the shadow self has given it’s blessing. Death has exited the building – leaving the innocent child and adult together. Honoring Buffy’s decision to acknowledge her child. And Buffy closes the door on him and with a smile goes back to Dawn.

If Dawn is indeed Buffy’s inner child, the innocent, the light – then perhaps Dawn may be the key to Buffy’s rediscovery of herself? The part she lost when she died? Maybe if Buffy can reintegrate the shadow self and Dawn, she can feel whole and strong again? Or is something else going on here? If Dawn and Buffy are part of each other, more than sisters, more than mother and child, than what happens if Dawn is killed? Does the part the monks took from Buffy go back into Buffy? What is Dawn’s role? Or is Dawn becoming a separate entity, a portion of Buffy but also separate from her? And is Dawn and Spike the ones who will end up together? Not sure where they are leading us. But I do think that we’ve stepped over one hurdle with Buffy’s acknowledgement of Dawn. Now let’s see what happens when she acknowledges her relationship with Spike – to Dawn.

Well hope this all made sense. Sorry for the rambled musings towards the end. And sorry it’s so bloody long! Thanks for taking the time to read it. Looking forward to any and all comments!!

;-) shadowkat

[> A truly excellent essay. I shall be rereading this many times. -- Rahael, 07:07:38 03/27/02 Wed

[> Attention CJL re your post on Promethuen Fire..... -- Rahael, 07:43:11 03/27/02 Wed

re your reply to Shadowkat at the Cross and Stake.

Which was a wonderful post also, and I wonder whether you want to repost here?

I admit to a special self interest with this regard. Around the time of OMWF, I brought up the Promethuen legend re the Fire motifs we were getting this season to ummm a stunning lack of responses, lol.

I hadn't thought to associate it with Dawn however.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think I sought to find a parallel with the idea of Prometheus travelling to heaven and escaping with fire, a boon for mankind, but the source of his eternal punishment hereafter, with Buffy escaping from heaven, trying to recapture her inner fire and being subject to spiritual torment.

And some more Greek myth parallels I brought up. Just as Pandora's box unleashed darkness into the world, and at the very last moment hope crawls out, Buffy's grave opens, darkens season 6, but the very last thing that crawls out is Buffy, the last hope for Sunnydale. The legends of Prometheus and Pandora are linked, and like the whole Eden myth parallel, both deal with the ideas of creation, and the departure of heaven from earth as a result of a woman's action.

Xander does invoke 'merciful Zeus' after all, in OMWF.

[> [> My Post on Dawn..... -- cjl, 09:16:10 03/27/02 Wed

Rahael, I regret to say that I never read your theories about Buffy and the Promethean legend. Could you e-mail the pertinent post? I'm also interested in your take on Pandora. (I wanted to include Pandora in my new post, but I couldn't quite figure out how the symbolism fit into my back history of the Key. So I left it out. Maybe when I read your take, the whole thing will congeal in my brain.)

Let's wait awhile before posting my Promethean thread on ATP. Give everyone time to absorb Shadowkat's material on Buffy and Dawn. (Friday morning, maybe.)

[> [> [> 'Fire from Heaven', Pandora and Prometheus -- Rahael, 09:59:54 03/27/02 Wed

Here are two posts I did one week in November:

[> [> Fire from Heaven or Willow as Prometheus -- Rahael, 15:21:03 11/09/01 Fri

I'm sure that in the course of previous discussions about the 'Hero's Journey', Prometheus has come up - the hero who achieves his apotheosis, and comes back to earth with a heavenly boon (albeit stolen)

He steals fire from the Gods, for the sake of humanity, and is punished for his selfless deed by being strung to a rock for eternity, with an eagle eating his liver every day.

Now Buffy has already been identified with love/fire......and she too has been snatched from heaven, by Willow, dabbling in the matters of the Gods for the sake of her own human comfort.

The only problem with relating this to Buffy is that Willow is not suffering torment (only Buffy).........yet.

Pandora and Prometheus, plus something on Lilith -- Rahael, 09:15:59 11/16/01 Fri

Pandora was a beautiful woman, created by a son of Zeus, who was married off to Epimetheus, and given a gift by each of the Gods. She was created to punish mankind, as a response to Prometheus (ha! another Prometheus/fire link!). Aphrodite gave her beauty, Athena, Skill, Hermes gave her a dog-like mind, and a thieving nature (kleptomania!!).Zeus gave her curiosity as a gift, and a box, which he told her never to open. Pandora was made out of earth and water.

Eventually, Pandora gave into temptation and opened the box, thus releasing all the horrors and evils of the world onto humanity. But the very last thing to come out of the box was hope; hope for humanity in a newly darkened world.

Pandora is linked inextricably with Prometheus, stealer of the divine fire, creator of man from clay. I see here a rich imagery that ties into the Buffyverse in numerous ways.

1) fire is everpresent in the Greek 'early humanity' story 2) the image of challenging Gods, temptation and men and women risking the ire of God are all here.

There is also the idea of a universe which punishes all actions, good or bad present here too, and I think Joss Whedon has always tried to show that to all actions there must be emotional consequences.

Anyway, these are just a series of random thoughts, rather than a thesis.

I tend to see a better parallel between the urn of osiris and Pandora's box, then the apple of knowledge. By bringing Buffy back, and opening her grave, Willow brings out all manner of things - the last of which is Buffy, who is hope.

Here is the Lilith myth:

From "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai: Some say the God created man and woman in His own image on the Sixth Day, giving them charge over the world, but that Eve did not yet exist. Now, God had set Adam to name every beast, bird and other living thing. When they passed before him in pairs, male and female, Adam --being already like a twenty-year-old man-- felt jealous of their loves, and though he tried coupling with each female creature in turn, found no satisfaction in the act. He therefore cried: "Every creature but I has a proper mate!" and prayed God would remedy this injustice. [1] God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that he used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem. Adam and Lilith never found peace together, for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent position he demanded. "Why must I lie beneath you?" she asked. "I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal." Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him. Adam complained to God: "I have been deserted by my helpmeet." God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore 'lilim' at the rate of more than one hundred a day. "Return to Adam without delay," the angels said, "or we will drown you!" Lilith asked: "How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?" "It will be death to refuse!" they answered. "How can I die," Lilith asked again, "when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it." To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; [3] and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own. Some say that Lilith ruled as queen in Zmargad, and again in Sheba; and was the demoness who destroyed Job's sons. Yet she escaped the curse of death which overtook Adam, since they had parted long before the Fall. Lilith and Naamah not only strangle infants but also seduce dreaming men, and one of whom, sleeping alone, may become their victim.

[> [> [> [> Re: 'Fire from Heaven', Pandora and Prometheus -- Kimberly, 11:02:55 03/27/02 Wed

What is a "dog-like" mind? Otherwise, the parallel between Dawn and Pandora seems very close: beauty, skill, thieving and curiosity. And someone who keeps getting everyone else into trouble. (I can't remember if Pandora herself ever got into trouble for opening the box.)

[> [> [> [> Re: 'Fire from Heaven', Pandora and Prometheus -- Elz, 11:22:09 03/27/02 Wed

This is a great thread, but I was wondering - wouldn't the opening of the portal in The Gift be a better metaphor for Pandora's Box?

Obviously, Dawn opens it, and chaos and destruction come out. What's left at the end is hope for a better world: Buffy had questioned the value of a world that demanded she kill her innocent sister, but instead we get love, self-sacrifice, and a future for Dawn and the others.

[> [> [> [> [> You're right. It's a better metaphor!!! -- Rahael, 11:25:33 03/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Great post! (and so are the ones above it!) -- ponygirl, 11:37:59 03/27/02 Wed

[> Kaboom! Brain hurts. -- Kimberly, 08:09:15 03/27/02 Wed

Fire bad, tree pretty.

I liked it and will be thinking about it for a while. Do you have any others?

[> Welcome shadowkat....excellent post....and some disagreement. -- Caroline, 08:35:31 03/27/02 Wed

Welcome shadowkat, hope you post here more often - there's some really good stuff in your post. If you are interested in the psychological stuff, look into the archives in February when they are up - Age, Rahael, me and several others who I don't immediately recall had several discussions about Spike as Buffy's shadow (esp. in the context of the Persephone/Hades myth, and no, we don't think that you are reaching!) and Age has some really wonderful insights into the Buffy-as-Dawn theme. By the way, nothing appears to be too long for this board.

As for Buffy's lost innocence, I don't think that she should reintegrate that. In myth (and psychology), the loss of innoncence is necessary for growth, learning and maturation. In fact, in all the loss of innoncence myths (e.g. Persephone) it seems as the the innocent deliberately, if unconsciously, brings about the destruction of her own innocence by wandering off somewhere dangerous alone. Loss of innoncence as loss of ignorance is not a bad thing, and makes way for the possibility of the expression of the mature, adult self, through the integration of aspects of the shadow. I feel that what Buffy was doing at the end of OAFA was acknowledging her own adult responsibilities. As we grow, there are some things that we need to shed forever. Kore the maiden is kidnapped by Hades and dragged into the underworld, but it is Persephone who emerges as Queen of the Underworld. Kore is gone but Persephone is capable of living both above and below, symbolically integrating the the ego and the shadow.

[> [> Wow - good points! Actually I agree with you -- shadowkat, 09:48:40 03/27/02 Wed

Actually i do agree - I think she was just accepting responsibility. I don't see Dawn so much as just innocence, but also as the child who needs to grow into adulthood. I think Buffy needs to let the child grow up and guide it, not continue trying to either protect/shelter the child or ignore it completely. She also has to allow the shadow into it. (Makes me think of another greek myth for some odd reason - Cupid and Psyche.)

Hmmm - maybe I need to post more things over here. Well I can now - have it bookmarked. *G

[> Re: Dawn - Buffy’s Other Half? Sister? Child? (very long, spoilers) -- Elz, 13:46:07 03/27/02 Wed

This is certainly an interesting post. I'm with you about S5, but I'm not so sure that you can really talk about Dawn as a child in S6. The Gift is arguably as much of a rite of passage for Dawn as it is for Buffy - someone else somewhere (sorry) pointed out that there's something very menstrual about the way that she gets cut in the lower abdomen and bleeds. I thought that had a lot of fascinating connotations.

Then in All the Way, Dawn isn't so much flirting with death as she is flirting with sex - it's a very traditional use of vampire mythology. The vampire is a figure of sexual temptation who perverts/corrupts innocent young women and turns them into monsters themselves (Victorians not being fans of sexually uninhibited women). That's why the title is "All the Way," and why we have a parallel story of Buffy dealing with her own tempting vampire. Dawn is pushing at her boundaries, rebelling, and sex is part of that.

Dawn isn't just a static child figure, she's on a journey of her own that's parallel to Buffy's. Much of what we see of her on the show is filtered through Buffy's POV, which is why she seems relatively childlike. When we experienced adolescence with Buffy, Willow and Xander, it was in the first person, and it looked a lot like adulthood because that's what it felt like to them; as we experience it with Dawn, it's seen from the perspective of the parent/adult, and it looks a lot more like childhood. But that doesn't mean we should be conned into thinking that it *is* childhood.

*SMASHED* IS TOTALLY SMASHING! -- Angelina, 18:38:34 03/26/02 Tue

I just watched the repeat of Smashed and I was blown away! The first time, I was totally freaked (in a good way) at the Spike/Buffy "wild thing" and missed much of the scene. The first time I watched, I SWORE I heard a "zipper" being "unzipped" when Buffy had Spike against the wall, but my husband said I was hearing things and that it was just "wishful thinking" on my part. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. It was a honest to goodness (badness) zipper being unzipped! WOW. That was intense. I guess this posting comes at an appropriate time! Right Wing B/S aside PhaaaaLEASE...I'm sorry, (OH ALRIGHT, put the sex aside for now) but am one of the few (?) who think Season Six is one of the best ever!?! The acting, writing and imagination are refreshing and thought provoking! I am enjoying Season Six tremendously. I just wish the Emmy Committee would lighten up and take a good look at "Once More With Feeling", or "Normal Again". SMG is giving magnificent performances and JM is better than ever in his endlessly intriguing interpretation of the enigmatic Spike. In fact, the entire ensemble are doing their best work ever, as is JW - my GOD, OMWF was amazing! I think Season Six should be watched again, preferably all at once, and THEN discussed. It's simply superb! You cannot pish-tosh this Season with a Good v. Evil explanation. It is much much MUCH more complex, as all of you out there so eloquently put forth into such profound and disturbing posts. I, for one, cannot wait to see how all this will pan out for our all too foible "heros". Thanks so much you guys, you keep me endlessly interested.

[> Re: *SMASHED* IS TOTALLY SMASHING! -- Wynn, 19:23:15 03/26/02 Tue

I also love Season 6, in spite of some weird storyline choices (aka Willow, Amy and Rack subplot). The episodes this season have been unique (OMWF, Tabula Rasa, Normal Again), intense (Dead Things and Smashed), funny (Life Serial), thought provoking, and just plain excellent. I'm so looking forward to the next episodes to see how Buffy and crew actually deal with the Evil Nerd Herd, where Buffy and Spike's relationship will go next, how the others will react to B&S, and hopefully, a dramatic confrontation between Buffy, Willow, and Xander about the resurrection spell and its consequences.

Reruns suck.

PS- Exams also suck. Professors always seem to schedule exams for the exact same week, or in my case, the exact same day. All work and no new BtVS to relieve the brain meltdown. :(

[> You are not alone! This season blows my mind -- shadowkat, 09:56:27 03/27/02 Wed

My addiction became an obsession this season. My god the metaphors, the ingenuisous thought provoking stories. Smashed made my jaw drop the first time I saw it. This time - I kept seeing all sorts of new things.

Spike and Buffy definitely have a relationship. And it is fascinating. I'm working on an analysis of him and anya who I believe parallel one another soon. But Spike from the moment he was introduced in Season 2 represented lust/sex/and forbidden love. He has evolved to represent more than just a metaphor now. He represents Buffy's shadow self, her dark masculine other. He also is his own character. Scorned lover, unrequited love, lust, desire, heat - all are symbolized in him. But ME has gone a step further they've made him an actual character not just a metaphor. A character that is in constant conflict, and smashed showed that conflict perfectly! And it paralleled it with the conflict in Willow. An amazing episode.

So glad to see there are others appreciating this season as much as me!

[> Buffy's hair -- Jon, 10:33:25 03/27/02 Wed

Maybe something was made of this on the first go round regarding Smashed, but it sure seems like something could be made of Buffy's hairstyle in this episode (putting it another way: That Buffy's hairstyle in this episode could be a locus of interpretive activity). She wears the double braids in other episodes, but I don't remember seeing the little jeweled barrett on the back of her head before (I could so easily be wrong about that). What's it doing there? Could it be a little figure for "the thing that's fixed in her blindspot" - namely, her desire for Spike?

I too love this season - and not just the hairstyles.


[> Season Six, a perspective -- Ian, 11:46:09 03/27/02 Wed

I agree, season six is superb. No, it is not super happy or funny or witty or light, and the characters are making SO many mistakes in their lives and running for all their worth to escape the consequences. In short, it's great!

I love that this season is focusing on the choices people face, the consequences, and how unavoidable those consequences are. I consider this season far more poignant than depressing, and if at times it seems morose at least it is not without reason. One the "Big Board of Things That Annoy Me," the entertainment culture's depiction of how a death in the family never affects anyone the next week ranks right up there.

In contrast, this season every one of the Scoobies is undergoing a process of self discovery, and that's not often a hugs and puppies experience:

Buffy has a big case of responsibility pie and is straining to re-find her zest for life, which she misplaced long before "The Gift;"

Xander is questioning the survivability of love and undergoing massive self doubt that is the legacy of growing up amid abuse ("Will I turn into the people I despise against my will? After all, that's the only way of life I really know");

Willow has undergone a major reassessment of her own sexuality and identity, has lost her loving relationship, and has discovered just how hard it is to turn away from Power now that she's found it;

Dawn is having to deal with the death of her Mother, abandonment by her Father, the death and return of her emotionally distant sister, the break-up of the only steady relationship models in her life (Xander/Anya and Willow/Tara), and the whole "I've only been human for about a year" thing;

Spike has the chip, the obsessive love, a new lifestyle minus the "I'm actively evil" component, and the continuing rejection by the woman he loves;

Tara has not only broken up with Willow due to some abuse, she has also rejected her blood family and has been thrust to the sidelines of her adopted family (but she's still dealing better than anyone else);

and Anya is coping with the whole humanity thing, being left at the alter thing, and the "should I or shouldn't I go back to my vengeance gig?" thing.

In short, big heavy subjects with no easy solutions. I love that Buffy hasn't trivialized any of them or overlooked them in the name of expediency. I also disagree that this season has lacked humor-- rather than zippy one liners, Buffy is finding the humor inherent in a situation, which is both more subtle and more ambiguous.

This season rocks.

the strangeness of light in normal again -- ramses 2, 18:55:11 03/26/02 Tue

has no one else (perhaps i'm in a au asylum) noticed the use of light in Normal again? The light is always on Buffy's face, right there across her face, in her eyes. Blinding her. She is blinded by the light. I believe this started in as you were, you know after she made the healthy break from spike. In Normal Again, the doctor(Xray of Spike) shines light into her eyes. Her house is awash in light. Even the freakin cellar is bathed in light! Spike, trying to lay some truth on her is burned by the light. This girl wants nothing to do with shadows, life might lie there. Better to hold to ideals, even if they aren't real.
I think the wedding really symbolized this, the couple were supposed to be the light at the end of the tunnel. Instead, they were ugly old truth. A trainload of pain.

[> The light motif -- Kerri, 19:36:04 03/26/02 Tue

In After Life Buffy tells Spike that the world is bright and hard and violent, and in the end of the ep when she walks into the light it is blinding and painful. But we see Buffy walk into the light in a simular way in As You Were but the light is now welcoming because it holds the promise of a new day because Buffy is more ready to make that happen and accept life again.

The light was also used in reference to St. Teresa, with the painting being shown in Life Serial, and Buffy being shown in light simular to this painting in Wrecked and now again in Normal Again. Perhaps the light is used to show the divinity that lies within Buffy that she has now rediscovered.

The doctor shone a blinding light in Buffy's eyes, perhaps symbolizing being blinded by the desire for a normal life. But in the end of the ep it was not blinding to Buffy at all. The light shone behind her, giving her strength and power. This is an ep where Buffy embraces life once again, and thus it is fitting that she allow the light (representing life) to strengthen her.

[> [> Re: The light motif -- ramses 2, 19:47:16 03/26/02 Tue

see, i don't get that. i think that the light does blind her. If at the end it's not it's because she chooses the shadows. the maybe's. the what if's. The light shining behind her, well that just means she's in the shadows, giving her strength and power. Light does not strengthen her, but love. Comforting dark womblike love. Heaven, mother, dark lover.

[> [> [> Re: The light motif -- Kerri, 20:08:54 03/26/02 Tue

I think we are taking light to mean differnt things. You seem to be (and tell me if i'm wrong) taking light to mean pure right as opposed the the gray morality of the shadows. I'm usuing light as a metaphor for life. And I thinkthat it works on both levels.

But the point that I was making, using light to represent life, that in the end of NA Buffy moves out from the darkness (hiding from her life) of being under the stairs to a place where the light can support her. She once again lets life in, lets love in.

And really both interpretations lead to the same point because with life comes the gray areas, the ambiguities, and by stepping into the light Buffy lets this all in and makes a move towards accepting what her life really is.

[> [> [> [> Re: The light motif -- ramses 2, 20:31:38 03/26/02 Tue

I'm not sure that Buffy gets that to let life in, she let's love in. Each time she steps into the light(we take a deep breath)she seems to call upon her old fears. I believe she thinks the light represents, truth, justice, the american way. All cold ideals. No heat , no fire. No life. To love you must hurt, forgive. She fears hurting. She cannot forgive. There is comfort in the dark, there is forgiveness. I just don't see Buffy there yet.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The light motif -- Kerri, 20:50:39 03/26/02 Tue

wow, it just seems to be a discussion between the two of us, huh? I'm not sure Buffy gets the entire message about love and forgiveness and pain, but I still think NA was Buffy's choice to try and embrace life. She finally takes away her idea of a normal life, she choses to accept the life she has. Does that mean Buffy understands and accepts everything in her life? No. But it does seem to be a step in that direction. Moving from the darkness to the light (out from under the stairs following joyce's speech) was a conscious choice of trying to accept life. Once again I'm keeping my interpretation of light=life in this scenario. Yes I do agree that there is forgiveness in the dark, as you say, because Buffy must accept her own "darkness." But this is a different use of the light and dark metaphor. Ramses, I agree with a lot of your interpretaion, I just think the light has many differnt symbolic meanings. Anyone else want to jump in with theirs? ;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The light motif -- ramses 2, 21:16:33 03/26/02 Tue

kerri, surely somebody else has some ideas about this. I'm right there with you hoping that Buffy chooses life. I just kinda think she's using the Light as an excuse. It blinds her to the choices she could make. She's seeing right, wrong and not alot of reality.It bothers me that no one else saw the properties of light in this episode. Kerri thank you for debating me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The light motif -- Kerri, 21:50:34 03/26/02 Tue

Thank you too ramses...I completely agree that Buffy is blinded to the greys because she is so terrified of her darkness. I saw this theme but never really connected it to the light imagrey in NA so thanks for pointing that out. And we can only hope someday another poster will come and join our discussion ;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The light motif, what does it mean? -- Rufus, 02:07:24 03/27/02 Wed

When Buffy jumped off the platform in The Gift, she jumped into the light, the light that extinguished her life. She then found herself in the darkness and found comfort and completion, as far as she was concerned she was finshed...but she wasn't. Her friends brought her back, leaving by necessity, leaving Buffy to claw her way out of the darkness of her coffin into a blurry light. She couldn't see much and any light was overwhelming. Buffy has been on a slow return to the living, after first attempting to find her way back to that state that was warm and loving. As Buffy has gone through the trials of life, boring mundane stuff such as finding out she was in debt and needed to not only join the world again, but go flip burgers to continue. As Buffy has gone on, the first pain of living again wears off, she can now go into the light without immediately wanting to return to the shadow to hide. I don't see the light as a block to the truth, but a force that represents Buffy's comfort level in moving around in the world of the living again. I don't argue that Buffy tends to think in terms the absolute, but that's also part of life, learning to live with the truth of the ambiguity of life.

Is garlic successful in the BtVS universe in warding away vampires? -- JMC, 19:45:48 03/26/02 Tue

Someone told me the in Passions in the second season that Buffy uses garlic to keep vampires out of her room. I have yet to watch the second season and am waiting for it to come out on DVD. I don’t think I have seen garlic ever actually ward away vampires. And, what I don’t get is why Buffy would be frightened enough put garlic in her room? Don’t vampires need an invitation to come into someone’s house?

[> Yup -- Apophis, 19:59:19 03/26/02 Tue

At least, that's what I've been lead to believe. Buffy had a tone of it in her trunk in The Harvest and used it to keep Spike out in Gone.

[> [> Of course, by "tone," I meant "ton." Or "tonne," for our European friends. -- Apophis, 20:00:32 03/26/02 Tue

[> [> See, this is why I'd never want to be a vampire! -- d'Herblay, 22:08:59 03/26/02 Tue

I just couldn't give up the garlic!

On the other hand, considering that people are buying hot sauces in New Orleans that are indistinguishable from pepper spray, I imagine that there are some vampires with a taste for spicy foods who crumble up communion wafers and sprinkle them on their bloody Weetabix.

(Weetabices? Just when we figured out the plural of apocalypse . . . )

[> [> [> with you on that one! -- anom, 00:18:53 03/27/02 Wed

"I just couldn't give up the garlic!"

Me either--that'd be my 2nd reason for fighting like hell (so to speak) to keep from being turned. After the whole not-wanting-to-die part, that is. And d'Herb knows whereof I speak--he's seen me spice a pizza! (NY-area posters may get their own chance before long....)

"...I imagine that there are some vampires with a taste for spicy foods who crumble up communion wafers and sprinkle them on their bloody Weetabix."

Okay, first, yeccchhh! Second, I thought that's what berber root was for. Besides, it probably doesn't burn the vamps' fingers like the wafers would.

"(Weetabices? Just when we figured out the plural of apocalypse . . . )"

I'm pretty sure "Weetabix" is a collective noun, since it seems to refer to the entire contents of the box. Or maybe it's the plural, & each one is a Weetabic.

I'd better quit now--I feel a Shelley Berman routine coming on (for those too young to remember, he could make you laugh so hard you'd cry, & then you'd need some kleenices to wipe your eyes).

You guys probably don't care but... -- Kerri, 20:01:53 03/26/02 Tue

YEsterday was my birthday (no this post is not an attempt to make u wish me a happy birthday) and my parents, knowing what a Buffy fan I am, got me the season 1 DVD. I'm not entirely sure why I hadn't bought it before, but not doing so was definately a mistake.

I enjoyed Joss' commentary a lot. Interesting, insightful, but I would have loved to hear it for more of the episodes.

I was rewatching PG and I noticed at the end of the ep when everyone comes into the library to see the master's bones that Buffy is crying. Now I've watched this ep many times, but I never realized that tears are running down Buffy's face when she's looking at the Master's bones. It really changed my view of that scene, Buffy's experience in fighting the master, and her friends' and giles' perception of the that experience especially in light of which was on fx today.

Another fairly random though: the revelation that Buffy's parents sent her to a mental instiution has really changed my viewing of the Buffy-Joyce relationship in seasons 1 and 2 and especially in Becoming when Buffy tells Joyce she's the slayer.

Actually that fact has really changed my understanding of Buffy's experience a lot and it's kind of weird to have that happen 6 years later. But I'm certainly not complaining-NA has to be one of my favorite eps to date and I totally agree with Angelina who posted how much she is loving season 6. Great stories, writing, and acting.

If only the reruns would end....

[> Happy Birthday!!!!! -- VampRiley, 20:06:46 03/26/02 Tue

I too wish the reruns would end.

VR, an unhappy one.

[> do too! -- anom, 20:58:47 03/26/02 Tue

Happy birthday, Kerri!

Don't understand why you think it was a mistake not to get the DVD yourself, though--isn't it better to get it as a present? Enjoy!

[> Happy Birthday [[Kerri]] !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 21:13:24 03/26/02 Tue

12x@>- ^^^^^^^^^^^ 0:-)

And who can say I forgot the emoticon page^^^^^^^^^^


[> Re: You guys probably don't care but... -- ramses2, 21:43:17 03/26/02 Tue

happy birthday kerri!!

[> it was mine yesterday too Kerri - - Happy B'Day to you! -- Not Sayin', 22:18:48 03/26/02 Tue

[> [> Also my father's. Happy birthdays all around! -- d'Herblay, 22:30:35 03/26/02 Tue

[> Belated "Happy Birthday!" and also "Penblwydd Hapus!" -- Marie, 01:06:50 03/27/02 Wed

And many congratulations for posting sober, *cough*!


"Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest" annotations--Once Again! lol -- Rob, 20:03:59 03/26/02 Tue

Well, just when my annotation thread starts cookin', it gets shoved into the archives. Damn you, Right-Wing Thread! LOL.

I really want to thank Fresne for the great annotations. You really got the ball rolling there. For those of you who may have missed it, in its lightning-speed journey to the archives, I'm reprinting what fresne wrote here:

"So, to get thing rolling again (some of these are probably pretty obvious) here are some annotations to WttH:
1. WttH opens with a classic horror movie scene. Teenage couple break into a forbidden place (here the school after hours). There are strong intimations that they are going to have sex, which is a big, now you're going to die in horror movies. The girl hears a noise and the boy reassures her that there is no one there, which draws the viewer into the expectation that a creature will now jump out and kill them. Except the girl is the killing creature. Thus within minutes, ME clearly establishes the series vision, things are not what they seem.
2. Cordelia would kill to live in LA. In Angel, she moves to LA.
3. Cordelia's comment about the softer side of Sears is a reference to an add campaign by Sears.
4. The picture which Giles shows Buffy as an example of the way the world used to be is a woodcut by Gustave Dore from Dante's Inferno Canto XXVIII. This is a level in the Malebolge (intestines) of Hell, where sinners who caused strife are condemned to be eternaly flayed by an unseen demon.
5. When Giles says (paraphrase) "the world did not begin as a paradise." this is a reference to Genesis.
6. Angel gives Buffy a cross in a box. This is both foreshadowing that he is a vampire, he doesn't touch the cross, and refers to classic vampire lore, crosses hurt vampires.
7. There are numerous references throughout the episode to the events of the movie. e.g., the interview with Principal Flutie, the first conversation with Cordelia, the conversation at the Bronze with Giles, etc.
8. In the scene at the Bronze, Giles believes that Buffy should have a mystic ability to identify vampires. She does not, other than her keen fashion sense. This is contrary to the movie, where Buffy got cramps when she came near a vampire, which could have been awkward in the series. Although of course, as in the movie, Buffy does use her keen fashion sense for good and not evil."

So I hope that gives you guys an idea of the types of annotations I want for the episodes. Those are perfect examples!

Keep 'em comin' people! :-)


[> Re: "Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest" annotations--Once Again! lol -- Cactus Watcher, 20:47:32 03/26/02 Tue

Fresne's post went off the board as I was trying to post this a couple hours ago.

When Buffy is trying to choose what to wear for her first visit to the Bronze, she says to the mirror, "Hello. Would you like a copy of the Watchtower?" refering to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their magazine.

Reminds me of the time I managed to beg off taking a copy of the Watchtower in Copenhagen because I convinced the fellow I can't read Danish!

A reply to an archived thread that was a reply to an archived thread, or "Hey anom!" -- d'Herblay, 20:59:52 03/26/02 Tue

(You can lead a thread to the archives, but you can't make it die. I've got to answer anom's questions: it would be rude not to. And, who knows? By the time I'm done writing, maybe anom's post will have been restored to the first page!)

Alcohol is derived from the Arabic al-kuhl. It was the term used by alchemists to refer to the essence of something, something distilled, the true spirit of something. But it seems that Paracelsus was the first to refer to distilled spirits with this term; the Arabs used the term to refer to crushed antimony, a common eye-shadow in Medieval times (reminding us how modern these modesty requirements are).

Alchemy and chemistry are related. Both are derived from the Arabicization of a Greek word for Egypt, the supposed source of the science (think of Hermes Trimestigus, a Ptolemaic successor to Thoth). When chemistry began to lose its mystical flavor, around the same time astrology and astronomy became divergent pursuits, the classicists made the word Greek again.

Sifr is the source of both zero and cipher. They are cognate (and "zero" is the first definition given in one of my dictionaries for "cipher"). The difference is that cipher passed through Medieval Latin between Arabic and French, while zero passed through Italian between Arabic and French. Sifr was transliterated according to the phonetic values accorded to the letters in each language at the time. Similarly, the Arabic naranj became naranja ("nar-an-ha") in Spanish, aranchia ("or-anj-ah") in Italian and orange ("or-ONJ")in French. The common ancestry that is obscured by the spelling is revealed by the pronunciation. (English speakers would work their own vowel- and consonant-shifts on orange to produce our quite different "ORnj") (By the way, I am working from memory here, so please excuse my approximate spelling and pronunciations. Of course, if I didn't expect to be corrected, would I address anom?) (And I'm sure anom already knows that "Jehovah" is spelled that way because the theologians who came up with that particular transliteration of the Hebrew tetragrammaton spoke German, where J is pronounced as "Y" and V as "W.")

The concept of zero actually originates among the Hindus; I think that it has something to do with achieving release from the cycle of reincarnation. But it was Muslim algebraists who first used it in place-notation and made it a number. The Greeks and Romans really believed that nature abhors a vacuum; the concept of nothingness having a place in the world and in mathematics was not only foreign but abhorrent to them.

[> wow -- Apophis, 21:50:48 03/26/02 Tue

Question referring to an archived thread about archiving another archived thread -- d'Herblay, 22:25:29 03/26/02 Tue

If we cleared so much room from the front page by moving "Right Wing Objections" to the archives, then why is the announcement that "Right Wing Objections" is being moved already itself archived?

Two-thirds of "Voy" is "oy."

[> probably manual-manipulation to allow room for what's to come -- WelcomeBackdH, 22:30:15 03/26/02 Tue

[> [> Manual-manipulation? That has . . . um . . . connotations! -- d'Herblay, 22:37:48 03/26/02 Tue

I'm starting to feel jerked around!

I did contribute a good 600 or so words to that thread and would have liked for it to stick around more than 45 minutes after my last post.

I'm going to blame Voy until I hear differently. I count thirteen different threads that have gone into the archives since R.W.O. That's a lot of manual manipulation, and it includes several of the threads that Masq put R.W.O. into the archives to make room for.

[> [> [> I said "maybe" ... just spelled it wrong is all -- UnintentionalJerking, 22:40:28 03/26/02 Tue

[> [> [> But(t) manutension is definitely the way to go ;) -- le monde des mondes, qui quitte Montréal aujourd'hui, 05:26:20 03/27/02 Wed

[> I give up! -- Masq, 22:59:16 03/26/02 Tue

I moved RWO to archive 1 and moved a bunch back to the main board, but this archiver is a hungry animal, eating new threads and moved threads alive.

If there are any special requests for things to move back, I'll move 'em, happily.

But they'll only be moved upon request, 'coz my clicking finger is tired.

[> [> Masq - Please move back the "Dawn - Buffy's other Half" thread (NT) -- Yoda, 04:59:34 03/27/02 Wed

[> Oy, indeed. Voy's software has definitely lost it! -- Cactus Watcher, 05:43:32 03/27/02 Wed

The board must have overflowed a data stack somewhere.

I'd ask for a thread back, but at this rate it would be gone in minutes anyway.

[> [> Dawn - Buffy's Other Half? - can I just post it here?? -- shadowkat, 06:04:37 03/27/02 Wed

Hi - new here, usually post my analysises to Buffy Cross & Stake, but Yoda suggested I try here or did it for me. It is about 7 pages - is that too long for this thread?? If so, let me know.

[> [> [> Not too long at all, and ps. Loved your essay on Giles at the C&S. -- Rahael, 06:08:22 03/27/02 Wed

Why not post that here too for our enjoyment?

[> [> [> Re: Dawn - Buffy's Other Half? - can I just post it here?? -- Yoda, 06:15:10 03/27/02 Wed

Shadowkat - Why don't you start a new post for it.

[> Reply to dH's reply to Anom. Or how I shouldn't renew old wounds -- Rahael, 06:53:34 03/27/02 Wed

but I'm going ahead and doing so.

It's a rare day when you read the board with your morning coffee to find that d'Herblay is the most prolific poster on the board.

Even rarer to write a post to his thread at lunchtime, go online and find that the thread has been archived. No biggie. The board probably doesn't need newish history rehearsed. I simply mused on Thomas More's satire in Utopia, where a strange land that had never heard of Christ proved to be more Christ-like than his contemporary early modern Europe.

And then I continued to muse on the irony of a gap between professed principle and practise. One only has to contemplate the intelligent and tolerant posts of the only Muslim poster on this board in a a recently archived thread, and then consider the aspersions cast on that religion by another poster who claims for Christ the virtues of tolerance, love, meekness and forgiveness.

And yes, I can remain tolerant towards people of faith despite the crimes committed in the name of faith. Just as I remain tolerant to the idea of democracy despite the crimes committed in its name; tolerant to the idea of peace, despite the wars committed in its name.

Remember that Marx's famous quote about religion being the opium of the people actually ends 'and the heart of a heartless world'.

A little footnote.

"Islam is to religion what Nazism was to politics" - Gosh what an insight! And in no way at all destroying the credibility of anything else that post went on to say! Cos, after all, bringing the holocaust in to support an argument that is already standing on rickety and prejudiced legs is the first refuge of the ......

Rahael goes off to read the sermon on the mount. And think on that part of the Qu'ran which tells her that Evil and Good cannot be equal. Because evil must be met with something greater, so that you can make your enemy your friend.

And thinks about how parts of the Old Testament advocates militarism, supports slavery and condones the ill treatment of women and considers Jesus' injunctions regarding motes, beams and the casting of stones.

Feeling bored? Then I cordially invite you... -- Marie, 01:13:46 03/27/02 Wed join a new Round Robin, which follows this post.


1. Keep it fairly short - just to give everyone a go.

2. Keep it consistent - your "bit" must follow on and make sense.

3. Number your posts in the message subject, so we know where we are.

4. Have fun!


[> Buffy's Day Off (Part I) -- Marie, 01:26:19 03/27/02 Wed

Buffy sat back in the lounger with a sigh of relief. Dawn had just left for school, Willow for the Library, and Buffy herself had the day off! She put the book she'd carried out with her down on the grass, and lay back, for once content. No Big Bads to fight, Spike keeping a fairly low profile, Willow and Tara starting to get along - even Dawn had been smiling this morning! She wasn't going to think about Xander and Anya today, either. Not on her day off!

She'd almost dozed off, when a faint sound roused her. Lifting her head, she shoved her sunglasses down her nose, and surveyed the peaceful garden, narrowing her eyes against the bright sun. Sensing a sudden movement just behind her, she turned. "What the-"... be continued...

[> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 2) -- julia, 02:57:21 03/27/02 Wed

A brightly colored butterfly swooped past the tip of Buffy’s nose. She reeled back against the chair in startled shock. “Hey, now!” Just then a small black and white cat scampered around the corner of the house. Meowing its attack, the cat leapt skyward, chasing the butterfly. Shaking her head in amazement, Buffy reached for the portable phone next to the book in the grass, “Tara’s never gonna believe this one.”

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 2) -- neaux, 05:17:01 03/27/02 Wed

Tara's answering machine picked up. "Bummer," Buffy frowned.
She sat back and hung up the phone. Buffy shrugged and got cuddly with her book again. The quiet eventually overpowered Buffy, and her eyelids were heavy. Buffy was dozing off and drooling when Spike Burst through the Door under a flaming blanket.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 4) -- Marie, 06:02:41 03/27/02 Wed

He stood on the top step, and glared at her, smouldering.

"Don't you ever answer the bloody 'phone?" he snapped.

With a reluctant, but heartfelt, sigh, Buffy opened her eyes.

"Don't you ever get tired of me telling you to get lost?" she answered. "What do you want, Spike? And it had better be good - it's my day off!"

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 5) -- GreatRewards, 08:10:55 03/27/02 Wed

"Not anymore, pet" Spike replied.

Spike lit a cigarette and leaned against the doorjamb, being sure to remain well within the shadows on Buffy's front porch. He was trying to look calm and suave, but it was obvious to Buffy that something was bothering him and it wasn't just the fact that the sun was rising ever higher in the morning sky, threatening what little shadow remained on the porch.

"If you've got something to say, spew it or get lost, Spike." spat Buffy. She was impatient to return to her book.

"Ok, 'ere's the sitch", Spike began.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 6) -- Dichotomy, 08:29:50 03/27/02 Wed

"Last night, me an' Clem were playing a game of kitten poker..." he continued. Buffy stopped him short with a disapproving frown.

"Hey, I was up. Had me a nice kitty of Siamese kitties..."

"Spike," Buffy interrupted, "the whole kitten poker thing is just way high on the creepy-meter, even for you..."

"Whatever, your high and mightiness. But that's not the point," he spat back, crushing his cigarette under his boot in exasperation. "The point is, Clem noticed that there was something a little 'off ' about the kittens."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 7) -- matching mole, 08:54:39 03/27/02 Wed

Buffy started to show a little interest. "Off? Or do you mean up?"

"Up? I don't follow, pet."

"You know," Buffy pointed skyward. "Up."

Just then a calico kitten dropped down out of the sky, swooped under the roof of Buffy's porch and grabbed tenaciously to the first thing it saw which happened to be the still smoking top of Spike's head.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 8) -- Farstrider, 09:31:10 03/27/02 Wed

"What's all this, then?" asked Spike, reaching up and grabbing the kitten by the back of the neck. It squirmed and scratched, trying to free itself from the vampire's grasp. "Ow, hey, stop it!" Spike yelled, giving the kitten a shake and passing it from his right hand to his left. The kitten, seeing its chance at escape, sunk its little teeth into Spike's left thumb. He jerked back, dropping the kitten to the porch floor.
Landing on all four feet, the kitten immediately pounced on Spike's pant's leg, and climbed up the vampire's clothes and into one of the interior pockets of his black duster.
Almost immediately, the sound of purring could be heard from the pocket.
Spike just looked up at Buffy, who was trying hard not to laugh at the resigned look on Spike's face.
"Looks like you've made a friend, Spike."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 9) -- Liq, 10:08:49 03/27/02 Wed

"Friend? Not bloody likely. This lil furball is my stake in tonight's game... OWwwww!"

Spike dipped his hand tenuously into the duster pocket and carefully extracted the hissing, swiping furball by the scruff of his neck.

"Guess Friend heard ya." Buffy snorted in a very un-ladylike manner. Leaning conspiratorially toward the kitten, she whispered loudly. "Go for the inside of his arm, above the elbow... he HATES that."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 10) -- cat, 10:53:45 03/27/02 Wed

Buffy was amazed and a little creeped out as the kitten stared directly into her eys, and then did just that. After getting a satisfactory yelp from the still smouldering Spike, The kitten looked back at Buffy, gave her a conspiratorial wink, then bounded off after the errant butterfly. Buffy chuckled at the miffed expression on Spike's face. "Hey, at least it didn't take a really BIG bite!" Spike just glowered at her amusement.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 10.5) -- Ian, 16:36:55 03/27/02 Wed

Suddenly, with a loud schpleck, the ground beneath the kitten's paws yawned open and swallowed the kitten whole.

"Blimey! Did I just see that it?" exclaimed Spike.

"I..I'm not sure you did." said Buffy, her nose scrunched up quizically. "But today I don't care. Today I'm on a mini-vacation, and if anything Hell Mouthy is going on, it'll just have to wait till tomorrow."

"Buffy, the ground just ate the cat. Doesn't this fall into the heading of "Slayer come save me?""

"Hey," Buffy replied, "If you want to do something, go right ahead."

"Bugger that," spat Spike, "Let's go inside and get to the lovin'."

[> Anyone want to start 11 over here? -- Masq, 14:48:06 03/27/02 Wed

[> [> Buffy's Day Off Part 11 -- zargon, 21:21:08 03/27/02 Wed

"Let's not and say we did--n't!" said Buffy, stepping out into the bright sunlight.

Spike stared at her hungrily with his penetrating dark eyes, sorry, that's Angel, eh hem, his penetrating Icelandic baby blues. "You're just a tease, pet," he said.

"Oh, look, Dawn's home from school!" she said brightly. "Hey, I know, why don't you watch her while I go that um thing um that I was planning on doing down at"

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off Part 12 -- Deeva, 22:35:49 03/27/02 Wed

"Hey Buffy. Hey Spike." said Dawn, as she passed Buffy, who was on her way into the house. Dawn plopped down onto the chair that Buffy had just vacated and turned her attention to Spike.

"S'up Spike? Isn't it a little bright and shiny for you to be out and about?" she asked.

"I was already up and there's nothin' on the telly. So I came over to see what's the what at Casa del Summers."

"Uh, right. You want me to believe that?"

Spike looked hard at Dawn. "You psychic now or somethin'? What do you think I was here for, Bit?"

"Oh, I don't know." she mused. "Maybe a little Slayer action, Buffy lovin', Big Bad nasty. Whatever you wanna call it." teased Dawn with the best fake innocent look on her face.

"DAWN!?!" choked Spike. "You...Where? I...Who? Where did you get that idea?"

[> [> [> Part 12 -- Rochefort, 22:38:26 03/27/02 Wed

"Hey!" said Spike but Buffy was already gone, escaping the responsibilities of adulthood in the form of Dawn once again.

"Hey Buffy I--," said Dawn as Buffy shot by her. Dawn moped up onto the porch and sat next to Spike. She whined.

"Platelet," Spike said to her absently, watching Buffy retreat. "It's going to drive me bloody insane," he said.

"I'm old enough to understand these things," said Dawn.

Spike clenched his fists as Buffy disapeared around a corner. He banged his head against the pole of the porch. ... and felt something pop.

[> [> [> [> Buffy's Day Off (Part 13) -- C'Ram, 23:01:48 03/27/02 Wed

For the fourth time and counting, the vampire let out a short grunt of pain followed by a couple of quick blinks which shortly transformed into a leering smile. He turned to Dawn, the grin turning to horror.

"Dawn!" She started at the sudden tone in his voice.
"Get inside now, lock yourself in your room and call somebody NOW."

Dawn didn't budge, treating him to a raised eyebrow of her own at the use of her name.

"What's with the dramatics? Why would I want to call anyone, when you know I'd rather hang with you."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 14) -- julia, 00:17:03 03/28/02 Thu

"Bloody hell, girl! Get out of here," Spike ground out from between clenched teeth as his fangs tried to descend. The scent of Dawn's rich blood wafted into his nostrils and ignited a firestorm of bloodlust.

Dawn stood transfixed as she watched Spike struggle against the transformation into game face. "But wha..." she trailed off and then began to back away from the now fully vamped bleached blond. "Go!" he snarled. "Now!"

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 15) -- clg0107, 08:59:03 03/28/02 Thu

Spike clung to the porch post, trying to regain control. He didn't stop to ask himself why he was fighting so hard, rather than giving in to the instinct. It was no use. He was shaking with the pent up rage, and the hunger for warm living blood.

At that moment, another kitten dropped out of the limbs of the tree in the front yard, onto the porch just feet from where Spike stood. Without missing a beat, he pounced on the furry animal, sinking his teeth into its neck.

He drained the creature quickly, and then cast the now still form into the nearby bushes. "Don't want Buffy or the Bit seeing that in front of their door"...He hadn't time to analyze that thought either, when the world began to spin around him. He dropped to his hands and knees, trying to make the dizziness stop, but it just kept increasing in intensity, until Spike blacked out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 14.5) -- Liq, 09:04:22 03/28/02 Thu

She reached the front door, realizing a split second too late that going into the house would seal her fate.

She turned on her heels, spun to the left barely missing smashing into Spike as he lunged after her. His momentum slammed him into the door while hers carried her off the porch and into the sunlight. They turned at the same minute, staring at each other.

Neither noticed the tiny calico kitten peeking from the side of the porch.

[> Re: Buffy's Day Off (Part 16) -- Cat, 11:58:49 03/28/02 Thu

Not having gotten inside yet, Dawn stared in horror as Spike went down, falling towards the sunlight. She grabbed hold of him as the golden rays began to burn him. Seeing that the light was steadily advancing, she knew the porch was no longer safe. Knowing that she was no longer safe with Spike though, she questioned the wisdom of bringing him inside. Deciding that even though he was evil, he was still her friend, she quickly got him inside and under cover. In the midst of this, however, she failed to notice that Spike was not the only monster she allowed into the house with, as the callico, seeing its chance, darted inside too, before the door finished closing.

Meanwhile, Buffy was having a plesant day. Making the decision to take a break, and not worry about the rest of the world, had actually been very liberating. There were a hundred things she could do; hang out at the mall, go to a movie, drop in unannounced on one of Willow's or Tara's classes. If she wanted, she could go to the park, and while away the time daydreaming on a swing. Happy with the day's potential, she sauntered off in the direction of the park.

Once there at the park, she approached the swing with joy. She didn't even notice that the park was strangely empty, very few people other than herself were there. Nor did she see all the feral eyes gleaming from the cover of the bushes, shining with mischief.

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