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I was going to do one a day -- lunasea, 17:10:34 03/06/03 Thu

But the whole thing is done, so here it is. All episodes and a 3 part conclusion that involves S5 and predictions about S7. I will post the whole thing on one thread so that it all stays together. It is very anti-Spike, so if you don't like reading stuff said against him, I recommend not reading it. Don't say you weren't warned.

It is ONLY about Buffy's Dark Night. Anything else mentioned is done to show how it compares/contrast with this or what a particular episode was going for. Again, it is heavily Anti-Spike.

It is also incredibly personal. My goal was to show how the season showed us what Buffy's Dark Night was like. Marti said S6 was Buffy's Dark Night, so at least that part is accurate.

That isn't to say the entire season didn't have other themes. This is just what I am dealing with. I would like to do Willow another time, but that requires earlier seasons. It will be called "The Vamping of Willow."

Feel free to say anything. If you think I am nuts, I agree. If you have anything to add, great.
[> Intro, Bargaining through Flooded (already been posted) -- lunasea, 17:13:45 03/06/03 Thu

How the hell did Joss and friends, especially Jane Espenson, write that? It usually isn't addressed. Angel is the hero's journey. He goes into the bowels of hell and comes back smarter and makes the world a better place. For him, Reprise is followed by Ephiphany. Not so with Buffy. She enters the Dark Night of the Soul.

It is set up S5, with "Intervention." In it, she appeals to a higher consciousness. Buffy concentrates on the second part of the message, the gift, death, and misses what I see as the important part.

You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.

When I heard this, I thought of the Phoenix. What Buffy needs to do in order to be reborn, in order to die, is to jump into the fire. In "The Gift," the scene contains many symbols from the myth of the Phoenix. The portal even looks a bit like a nest on fire. When Buffy dives into the portal, she looks like a bird (it isn't called a Swan dive for nothing). The sun, the leap off a man-made cliff, all symbols associated with the myth.

The death of Buffy/the Phoenix is a Gift because it causes her to be reborn, even better than before. Then they bring her back S6 and she isn't better. She isn't reborn. Why?

That is where Buffy's Dark Night of the Soul comes in. Watching "After Life" this time around was different. Something happpened to me this September. I found heaven. I woke up from a nap one day and there is was. It was just like Buffy described it.

I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.

It is what Zen calls "Big Mind." It was an amazing experience, but I couldn't stay there. Why is the same reason Buffy says "I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends." My connections to them demands "Small Mind." Once I started seeing them, giving them form, I had form. My family, my beautiful daughters, my husband, that is what kept me from being able to maintain Big Mind/heaven.

When I came back, it was just like Buffy described,

Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost...

Absolutely nothing brought me joy like it did once before, not even my girls. The web site I give at the begining does a great job of describing this.

In Afterlife, it is interesting that Buffy is fighting a demon without form. That is what she wants to return to. Her small mind world with form has to fight the big mind formless.

Then we move onto Flooded. Finances, the hallmark of the world of form. God is it painful to have to deal with these. They don't matter. Just "pieces of paper sent by bureaucrats that we've never even met. It's not like it's the end of the world. " It is so hard to have to deal with things that really don't matter. It is hard enough to deal with people that sort of do matter.

The conversation between Willow and Buffy when Buffy gets mad, Hubby and I have had that one, more than once. These shows hit him hard too, but from the other side of it. We had a great talk last night.

Then there is the conversation between Giles and Buffy. It is easier to tell people about being afraid of waking up in a box or recovering from Hell, than it is to describe what is really going on. I didn't even know myself. I just wasn't happy. I didn't know why.

Then we get another Spike discussion. Vampires are our shadows. Buffy isn't having these talks with another person, she is having them with herself, trying to puzzle things out. As Spike says "that's when you are alone."

BUFFY: I guess. Everyone ... (long pause) they all care. They all care so much, it ... makes it all harder.
SPIKE: I'm not sure I followed you around that bend, luv. (steps onto second stair)
BUFFY: I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm spending all of my time trying to be okay, so they don't worry. It's exhausting. And then, I...

She trails off, makes a frustrated gesture and then clenches her hand into a fist.

SPIKE: And that makes 'em worry even more.

How to get out of this viscious circle? It is so hard. You came back because of them and they are making it harder. If they would stop looking at you, seeing if you are ok, hoping you are ok, then you wouldn't have to pretend to be ok.

You aren't the standard not-ok. How do you describe what you are going through (showing them S6 does wonders for that)? You don't even know yourself.

I am just going to go show by show and give my experience to maybe shed a little light on what Buffy is going through. Thing with S6 is there is no revelation that comes to really end it. It isn't like the descent to hell that the hero's journey is built on. I think that is why people had problems with it. There didn't seem to be a point to the misery. That is the point, though.
[> Life Serial (already been posted) -- lunasea, 17:15:51 03/06/03 Thu

Life Serial continues Buffy's Dark Night of the Soul.

I love how it opens with Buffy almost happy. She gets to see Angel and touch the higher consciousness for a while. She comes back a bit recharged. That is until, her gift of fried chicken isn't necessary. Then you can literally see the life drained out of her again. Back out of heaven (being with Angel) and having to deal with mundane life again.

So what is our hero going to do? She has to find a way to resume her "life." First instinct, do what she was doing before, go back to college. Thing is college doesn't fit with her any more.

I loved the scenes in the classroom. I love when ME writes class dialogue that seems to be like filler, but actually tells what they are trying to do. We got Professor Walsch and her Freudian crap S4, we had the talk about Quasimodo S5 and S6 we have Sociology Class. (i'm sure there is some high school class stuff, too)

To pull it out, since it went by so fast:

MIKE: Social Construction of Reality. Who can tell me what that is? (many students raise their hands including Willow) Rachel.
RACHEL: A concept involving a couple of opposing theories, one stressing the externality and independence of social reality from individuals. (Buffy looks confused)
MIKE: And the flip side? (many hands raised) Steve?
STEVE: That each individual participates fully in the construction of his or her own life.
MIKE: Good, and who can expand on that? (hands) Chuck?
CHUCK: Well, those on the latter side of the theoretical divide stress...
BUFFY: (leans toward Willow and whispers) Will, I'm not following this too well.
WILLOW: Oh. The trick is to get in the rhythm, kinda go with the flow. (raises her hand)
BUFFY: Flow-going would be a lot easier if your classmates weren't such big brains.
WILLOW: (hand still raised) Buffy, that's ridiculous! They are no smarter than you or me.
MIKE: (O.S.) Willow.
WILLOW: (lowers hand, speaks to Mike) Because social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them. (Buffy stares at Willow)
MIKE: (O.S.) Nicely put. So, Ruby, does that mean there are countless realities?

There are 2 things going on here. First is Buffy feeling like she doesn't fit in a world she once excelled in. Prof. Walsch had her delivering papers S4 and Willow was jealous of her. Now she feels inferior compared to the "big brains."

The second is the subtext of what they are talking about. I wil leave that for others to talk about, if they want. For me it is about Big vs Small mind. I have already written about that. Also, think about the above in terms of Dawn and Normal Again.

Next Tara gives her a book. Did anyone else notice what Buffy opens to? It is one of my favorite sculptures of all time, Bernini's "Ecstacy of St. Teresa." I love St. Teresas of Avila so much, that she is the inspiration for my older daughter's middle name (everyone else can think it is my husband's beloved grandmother).

I do recommend anyone who is interested in spirituality or is a "seeker" do some research on her and read "The Way of Perfection" which she wrote. A google search will give you lots of stuff.

She is patron saint of a lot (she is one of the most significant saints to Catholic theology, male or female): bodily ills, headaches, lacemakers, laceworkers, loss of parents, opposition of Church authorities, people in need of grace, people in religious orders, people ridiculed for their piety, sick people, sickness, Spain

I could do a really long post on her. That picture was no accident. The camera got a clear shot of it and it is a famous sculpture. I would love to hear some other people's interpretation of why they included this.

Back to the show.

Who here doesn't feel like they are being "tested?" The tests that Buffy goes through is pretty much what the Dark Night feels like. I have had days where I feel like I am out of phase with everyone, like they are moving and I am standing still, not just mentally, but physcially. The world seems to move around me and I miss it as it goes so fast. I feel like I get knocked down (Buffy has super strength and cordination, should a human being be able to knock her down) by what is going on around me that is oblivious to my state. Tara was great--she was concerned, but she kept on going.

Then Buffy tries the world of construction. She is going to build stuff, well she is going to help others build stuff. What she ends up doing is destroying things. The people she saves totally turn on her. They are only concerned with the mundane world of their jobs. I loved how the scene progresses. First they are saying she isn't going to fit in. Then she shows how strong she is and they like her. Tony was even coming over to tell her that he was impressed.

Just as she starts to fit in, her higher calling screws things up. I loved how the demons melted, thus taking away evidence of what she did. Sure feels that way sometimes, I have to fight to make things work and just when they seem to, bam, I am reminded of why they don't. There isn't anything to show people why this is.

Next test: endless loop, based on pleasing another. Life is an endless loop and it seems pleasing another is the hardest thing to do in that. If you cannot be happy yourself, how are you supposed to be able to make others happy?It seems to pointless and at the end, Buffy quits.

The mummy's hand was a great touch. Buffy is the Hand. She feels all old and decrepit now. She should be dead, but is still animated. Let's see what is wrong with the hand "Power is gone" fingers are cut off, hand tries to strangle lady, etc, all things that apply to Buffy.

Then there is how she progresses as the scene wears on. Her attitude gets more and more blaise. She is more and more removed from the situation. It ends with her quitting. I love how she turned in her name tag, her identity.

I also love what it takes to resolve the situation, getting a hand special ordered. What is in the shop is not going to work. When she accepts this, she is delivered from the test. Just like the Dark Night will end when she accepts it and realizes she cannot make things better.

So next she goes to see Spike, in his crypt. Crypt, underground, symbolizing the unconscious. Not even Spike can help her. He says he will and fills her with hope, but he goes and plays kitten poker. He just wanted to pretend that she was his lady for the night.

Then there is the bit about she belongs in the dark. When you don't fit with the light, there is a tendancy to believe that you do belong in the dark. Thing is Buffy doesn't fit *anywhere.*

Best part of the whole episode were the faces she made while she was drinking. It wasn't something enjoyable, but she kept doing it. What else was there to do?

I like when she says "I'm not playing by anyone else's rules any more." Like she ever did before. She is starting to realize how she doesn't fit in this world any more. Even her unconscious has let her down. He cheats and didn't do what he said he would.

But then Giles makes things a little better with the check. Rupert makes things better. In Latin, Rupert means destruction within. In French is it road through. Both having meaning in medieval stories that deal with the Dark Night.

It ends with Buffy saying "I just ... wanna tell you ... that, um ... this ... makes me feel safe. Knowing you're always gonna be here. "

Giles knows that she cannot just feel safe because some guy is around (so did Angel). That isn't really feeling safe. Both Angel and Giles know how strong Buffy is. They see her heart. They cannot let that heart dim because she is using them as a crutch.

They are willing to put Buffy through the Dark Night because of what the end of it means and they know she will make it though.

You saw how Buffy was when she came back from the dead. Do you think it was easy for Angel to let her go like that? As she put it "it was intense." She can tell him anything. What do you think they talked about? The Show starts with Buffy getting a pit stop with Angel and being sent back to her Dark Night. It ends with getting another breather, but Giles knowing she has to go back to her Dark Night.

It was a very well done episode.
[> All the Way (posted before) -- lunasea, 17:17:43 03/06/03 Thu

Since I am focusing on the Dark Night of the Soul for Buffy in my interpretation of S6, I am focusing on Buffy.

This episode is the "I really miss Angel" episode for her.

I love the exchange with Spike at the begining "Feel like a bit of the rough and tumble?" Her interpretation of that shows where her mind is. Poor Spike, he will always just be a substitute for Angel (or Riley). The sexual subtexts of this show were great.

One thing I do have to say which has nothing to do with the Dark Night is that Buffy and Giles aren't exactly doing Cart wheels about Anya. "Anya is a wonderful former vengeance demon, I'm sure you'll spend ... many years of ... non-hell-dimensional bliss"

I liked the way Buffy and Giles connect throughout this episode, except at the end. It shows how comfortable she is with him and also takes him for granted.

Poor Buffy. Anya's happiness just reminds her of how unhappy she is and how much she misses Angel. Buffy is still trying to move forward, but the more she tries, the less she is able. It sucks.

Dawns comment:Oh, like you've never fallen for a vampire?

Was waaayy out of line, but it did underscore Angel and Buffy's relationship. Justin was the least creepy, almost nice, vampire so far. Watching Justin and Dawn was almost sweet. The conversation Giles had with Dawn also contrasted with the one he had with Buffy after Angel lost his soul.

But this episode was about Willow (and Dawn). Buffy's pain is in the background, but Willow is the important figure. This one I am doing Buffy and her Dark Night of the Soul.
[> OMWF (posted before) -- lunasea, 17:19:13 03/06/03 Thu

Once More with Feeling

Not going to comment on anything but the title.

Musicals have always been about emotion. Sing something and it means that much more. Poetry is great, but put it to a song and you not only have the words, but add whole entire layers. Add in dancing and you get even more layers.

The only way Buffy can express herself is through song. She sings about not feeling. Then at the end of all that emotion, Sweet says "Once More with Feeling" the title, which is supposed to draw our attention to it.

What is the purpose of his methods? Bring out what is buried in them, the emotions and ideas they are too afraid to touch. After that, then people have to deal with them, if it doesn't consume them. Now that Buffy and friends know what these are and have expressed them to each other, do it again, this time with feeling.

Actually one more thing, Sweet isn't a good demon. He brings all of this out and then at the end, Buffy wants to feel. She turns to Spike in order to do this, NOT A GOOD THING PEOPLE!!!!!

Buffy isn't working through her Dark Night. She is trying to run from it. She isn't accepting what she has to. She doesn't want to be. She is trying to be what she thinks she should be. Thus we enter into the rest of S6 and her relationship with Spike. Again NOT A GOOD THING!!!!!

Buffy with Spike is like Willow using magik for a high. NOT A GOOD THING!!!! (Have I said that already)

One more thing, pay attention to when they are singing and when they are talking. They only sing for the tough emotional stuff. Otherwise, they can talk. Sweet's power over them is tied to their emotions, their feelings. Those that combust have too much inside of them to handle.

Probably the best written episode, so far. It isn't just a musical for musical's sake. Joss actually addresses what musicals do and uses that to highlight Buffy's Dark Night. WOW!!!!!

Once More with Feeling, indeed.
[> Tabula Rasa (posted before) -- lunsea, 17:21:20 03/06/03 Thu

****Warning, from here on in, severe criticism of Spike's actions and character****

First the title, Tabula Rasa. It means writing tablet scraped, or clean slate.

People tend to interpret this episode as showing what are the characters' true nature, especially in the case of Spike. I don't see that as what this show is about.

Back to "Life Serial" and the classroom scene--the Social Construct of Reality. One of the students says, "Because social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them"

This show isn't about the characters' true nature, to me (though that is a valid interpretation), so much as it is about how the characters interpret and give meanings to the social phenomena they encounter.

I will use Spike to illustrate this point before moving onto Buffy.
Spike's first interpretation is about his accent and how comfortable he is saying certain words. His takes this to mean that he and Giles are related. Then he assumes that he must hate his father. Next Anya and Giles are figuring out their relationship to each other and Spike has to interject his judgmental comments.

I loved that Spike didn't have ID, but he did have a name from the suit he stole. His reaction to his name, again more judgment. If you want to see Spike's true nature, it is in his need to connect and be judgmental (and humorous). The comments about Giles' car were great. They were funny, judgmental and to some degree accurate (though I don't think Giles got a phallic shaped car for mid-life crisis. It was to celebrate, not to deny)

Now we go to what Spike shippers point to as "proof" of Spike being good at heart. "Hey, I'm a superhero too! " Notice the too. Spike isn't good at heart. He is defining himself based on "Joan." Joan is a superhero, so he must be one too. He defines himself as good because he doesn't want to bite Joan.

The vampire with a soul bit was funny, but it didn't fit. They don't know anything about vampires or what the soul does. Same thing about redemption. Cute Angel references and funny, but really stretching.

The whole thing wasn't about the clean slate, but how that slate got filled up. That revealed a character's true nature. It isn't just our blank state that is our nature, but how we go about interpreting things that fill it up.

So now onto Buffy and some serious criticism of Spike.

The loan shark stuff was cute, but this one line of Buffy's stuck with me "If I were to stop saving his life, it would simple things up *so* much."

Translate to: if I were to stop saving my ego, it would simple things up so much (and I could go back to heaven). When she is talking about/to Spike, she is talking about/to her own self. All dialogue between them can be interpreted in this light.

Again Spike ducks out, leaving her alone to face things. What is this about him not abandoning her? I like how Spike is in financial trouble like Buffy is.

Giles is leaving Buffy because he has become her crutch. Way to go ME!!!!! Abandoning someone is when you leave and they cannot handle things. Giles (and Angel) know that Buffy can handle things. The reason she spirals downward is because Spike interferes. Like I said, serious Spike criticism from here on out this season.

Back to the Dark Night. When you are that hopeless, you grab onto things. Buffy is grabbing onto Giles. She tried to do the same with Angel. At least Giles didn't say she was acting like a brat. I would love to have seen Angel and Buffy's meeting, but the WB is evil. Instead we get to see the scene between Giles and Buffy, without the sexual tension.

By grabbing, we don't make things better. We just prolong the process. Giles knows this and is one heck of man to be able to leave. After the intense feelings that are displayed in OMWF, Giles knows what he has to do. It isn't about being able to do anything together. It is about being able to do it on your own, when you can. That is what being a man (or woman) is about. An adult knows when to ask for help, but s/he also knows when not to.

This is one thing that Buffy has to do on her own. There is nothing wrong with that. Love allows us to connect to the higher consciousness, but if that love is dependent on a person, so is the connection. Buffy has a chance for real connection. Giles loves her enough to push her to do this. Love doesn't mean always being there. It is also not being there. The higher consciousness loves us enough to push us to do this alone. It is hard, but it is worth it.

Now for the spell. This episode is another to set up Willow's problem, but I will get to that next hiatus. This episode is about how the characters fill up their blank slate. How they interpret the social phenomenon they face.

First thing about Buffy, she is really lost. The transition to the spell is "Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-"

When she comes back, not much of a change. She is the first to wake up and she turns on the light (both symbolic). She pretty much accepts that she doesn't have an identity. She isn't hostile, scared or ready to jump to conclusions. She is just confused.

Her first reaction "It's ok, we'll take care of each other." Her heart shines through even without a memory. Who else is concerned about the others, rather than themselves? Everyone is trying to figure out who they are and Buffy is just trying to get through things.

I loved that she didn't have any ID and picked such a plain name (yet reminded me of Joan of Arc, the most famous Joan). In that whole thing, her concern is still more with Dawn than with herself. Buffy not having a wallet also ties to her lack of grounding in the material. No money, no ATM card, no school ID, nothing.

Dawn and Buffy's connection as sisters was great. First identity of Buffy, Dawn's Sister.

Then Buffy starts to try to solve things. Second identity of Buffy, boss. Or at least that is what Spike labels her. Wrong label. Boss is about control. Buffy isn't trying to control things. She isn't trying to boss others around. She is trying to get things solved. "Well, we need to figure out what's going on. We need to get help."

That was great. Buffy wanted to get help, not just solve things herself. She felt that she couldn't solve things and needed help. She is still fairly centered at this point.

Some great lines after this. "Monsters are real. Did we know this?" She isn't concerned about whether monsters are real, but what their relationship to this is. I also love her interpretation of Slay-her. She is not scared by the monsters but is concerned about this girl they monsters want to harm. That is what forms Buffy's essence, her concern for others (love).

Then she finds out she is a superhero. "Cool!" Her third identity and it solidifies her into a person. She is now more confident and has form. Her world now makes sense...

Until she finds out Randy is a vampire. The other vamps didn't phase her (her reaction to dusting a vamp wasn't quite what it is in Becoming), but Randy causes her to scream and run away. Gotta love her reaction to a vampire with a soul.

She regains herself and fighting begins. She has her identity and can function. Then her memories come flooding back and she goes down. Spell over.

Now for the Spike criticism.

Buffy looses her crutch. What does Spike do? Step in and tries to become the new one. (a lot more on this in Smashed. Spike shippers might want to stay away) THIS ISN'T A GOOD THING PEOPLE!!!!!

You don't get out of the Dark Night with sex or comfort. You don't get out of it by leaning on others. You get out of it by realizing none of that will get you out of it. Bad Spike!!!!

I did love the lack of dialogue in the last part. Words were inadequate and would have cluttered up the feelings. Last show was a musical and this one used music the same way. It was a lot like Becoming Part 2.


An aside that I elaborated on in What is the First thread, the spell messes up because the people involved are all connected and so are the memories of Buffy. Willow cannot isolate one person or memory to erase with such a powerful spell. Magic works by the interconnectedness of everything. This is something Willow doesn't understand. It is like releasing a gas into a room. It will fill the space it has. If you don't want a stinky room, you better only use a tiny amount of gas. Willow thinks she can direct the gas to only be in one corner. It doesn't work that way. Look at the spells that mess up on the show, all the way back to Xander's love spell.
[> [> Re: Tabula Rasa (posted before) -- Malandanza, 07:15:22 03/07/03 Fri

"First thing about Buffy, she is really lost. The transition to the spell is 'Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-'"

I think Willow deserves quite a bit of the blame for Spuffy -- Spike couldn't have seduced Buffy without Willow's intervention here. Buffy is on the verge of a catharsis. She's about to reveal how terrible she's felt since returning to life, how lost she is -- but among friends, who can offer her sympathy and support. We know the Scoobies want to make things better for Buffy -- they never follow through on their plans, but had their idol been reduced to tears in front of them, I have to believe they would have supported her in every way possible. Giles included -- he was leaving because he felt Buffy was using him as a crutch, but he tells Buffy later that
sometimes the most adult thing to do is to ask for help.

When Tabula Rasa ends, not only has Buffy been denied her catharsis, but she gets to experience the loss of heaven all over again (much as Xander experienced King Ralph) except now as she heads to her breakdown, her friends are nowhere to be found. Willow is filled with self-pity, unable to think of anything but herself. Tara is furious with Willow's deceit and is moving out. Giles escapes to England. Dawn is just a child and couldn't offer Buffy much help (especially in her early season "poor me" phase). Xander and Anya are just oblivious -- the only one around is Spike and he has no intention of helping Buffy. He's there to take advantage of her at her weakest moment. To have himself that one good day.

Tabula Rasa is the most important episode for me -- it signals Buffy's transition into darkness. A transition that would have been avoided had it not been for the selfishness of her "best friend" who cast the spell to:

1. Keep herself from feeling guilty about Buffy's suffering
2. "Fix" the relationship with Tara.
[> [> [> Magic as connection -- lunasea, 07:51:24 03/07/03 Fri

A very interesting point.

What really got me thinking is why Willow cast the spell. She was using magic to maintain connections to the two most important people in her life. It was a false connection, rather than a legitimate one. Willow goes even further later in the season, by not doing the spell and getting her fix from Rack.

Magic's danger lies in its artifice. Magic and love are really the same thing and when they are done genuinely, both are helpful. It is vampire/shadow love and dark magic that is causes harm this season.
[> [> my issue with anti-spike -- manwitch, 19:40:56 03/07/03 Fri

My issue with the anti-spike folks is not that I think spike is just the most upstanding young guy, its that I don't see how dispatching him is ultimately the ground for Buffy's success. He's "other" to her, and ultimately her humanity will be measured by her ability to incorprate him (otherness) in her life and her identity. Which doesn't mean they should live happily ever after and have lots of babies.

As I've said before, I think Spike is a symbolic representation of Buffy's psychological obstacle this year. I totally agree with you that he exists to further Buffy's story, not his own, but his role in that this year is a little more significant than in the past. I think ultimately she will have to tell him she loves him, and she will mean it. And I think it will be a good thing people. And I think it won't be a private moment. It will be said in front of Xander and Willow and Woody. And they will recognize that she is saying the right thing. The point won't be that Spike has grown to be worthy of love, but that Buffy has grown to love, whether worthy or not. Love and Forgive.

But I also think, that once Buffy's obstacle is overcome, that which represents it will be superfluous. Personally I think Spike isn't going to make it out the season. I said that after CwDP, and I've seen nothing to change my mind.
[> Smashed (major Spike criticism inside) -- lunasea, 17:26:11 03/06/03 Thu

***WARNING: SEVERE CRITICISM OF SPIKE FOLLOWS***

Back to Spike. Both Buffy and Spike's interpretation of the kiss are partially right and partially wrong. The kiss was precipitated by Buffy loosing Giles, her crutch. However, there is more to it than that. Not what Spike wants there to be, but it is much deeper, which I will get to in the final scene.

Spike can now hit Buffy. Not sure of the literal reason, but the symbolism is there. If Spike is Buffy's shadow, her shadow can now hurt her. Back to Dark Night stuff. The Dark Night is about the burning away of ego. Buffy is pretty identityless now. The ego keeps the shadow sort-of suppressed. Without the ego, the shadow can assert itself. It does when Spike's chip doesn't work on Buffy.

It is a hard part. When we aren't what we thought we are, we start to think that we are what we thought we aren't. That is S6, Spike (and the Trio, even Willow at the end) trying to get Buffy to think she is something that she doesn't think she is. Thing with Dark Night is we aren't what we thought we are nor are we what we think we aren't. That is the only way out. Spike replaces one ego with another.

All Buffy's put downs to Spike are about her own shadow and how she feels about herself on some level. "You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing. " Is Buffy a thing? An evil, disgusting, thing? If you really think that, why watch the show? Buffy needs to remove both her ideas that form ego and those that form her shadow. That is what Dark Night is about.

So Spike/shadow goes out to do some harm. Can't. Chip is a nice literary device, but let's go back to the symbolism here. Spike is Buffy. He still has her essence in some twisted level in the form of the chip. Buffy's essence is love. That is why she needs to burn away ego and shadow. They keep her from being that. Buffy's essence/the chip keeps Spike from harming others.

Buffy's interaction with Willow is pretty good too. Lots more symbolism. Willow's problem is her connection to the higher consciousness without realizing it. She thinks it is something she can control, something she does. Buffy's concern mirrors her own concern about herself. As Spike gains control of Buffy, she cares less and less about Willow.

I also like how the Scoobies are turning the fairly mundane crimes of the Trio into supernatural stuff. "Well, is it a, a supernatural diamond? You know, like, healing powers, or, or good-lucky?"

Back to Spike. He takes charge of the Trio to find out what is going on. He is being assertive, something we haven't really seen Spike do in a while. S5 Buffy's ego was in full control and Spike was reduced to stalking and puppy dogging after her. His attempts at manipulation in Crush were met with her blocking him out of her house.

No more. Since Buffy's ego is down, Spike is a big dog again. He is referring to her as "Slayer" rather than Buffy. He is trying to control her.

(We can compare this to Ben/Glory in S5, if anyone wants to)

He orders her to meet him. When she doesn't, he goes to her as big dog. Their phone conversation was great.

Now the abuse really starts. Sorry but the one thing missing from that disgusting exchange was actual love, from the moment he started talking.

First Buffy looks for a rational explanation. Then her Shadow tells her it is her fault, that she is wrong. Depression is anger turned inwards. Spike gives Buffy a way to turn that anger outward and boy does she.

Then we get the we are both freaks part. Thing is, it isn't finding comfort in each other that they are freaks. That wasn't comfort sex. That was angry sex. That was violent sex. That was BAD sex. Forget this women's lib crap that says violent sex is ok, that we are animals deep down and it is ok to be that. BS!!!!!

That was rape. That was power, control and anger. It was just mutual rape. They are angry that they are freaks and they take it out on each other. Buffy's shadow has become her ego and this is NOT A GOOD THING!!!!!!

Back to symbolism, the house falls down around them. Classic imagery. We can even go back to Life Serial. Buffy is trying to build a structure and ends up damaging it. Here she tears it down, badly. We are the house. Standard dream imagery.

Buffy ends up in the basement. BAD PLACE people. That is the underground, the unconscious, a tomb! This isn't going there to be reborn. This is things falling down around you. This is Spike taking her to his world and Buffy going. BAD!!!!!

Buffy needs to get out of the house all together. She doesn't need to build it and she doesn't need to demolish it. She needs to leave it.

Hubby and I had a talk about that scene. Actually he talked, I listened and nodded. Different kinds of sex can be fun. It isn't like true love means missionary position with no passion. However, the earth moved doesn't translate to the house being demolished.

Play violence may be fun, but that wasn't supposed to be play. That was real rage, real anger, real violence. Romanticize it to make it all safe and happy, but that is no different than the kids who wanted to be vampires.

Spike didn't really want to hurt Buffy icon BS!!!! He hurt her on a level more profound than physical boo-boos. He wanted to hurt her. Listen to their exchange. He tried to push every button he could. He wanted to hurt her, like he was hurting. He succeeded.

That wasn't two freaks getting comfort in the night. That was 2 lost souls angry and taking it out on each other. That has a word--RAPE. We didn't witness a tender moment between 2 people that really love each other and were having fun. That was pure rage. THAT WAS BAD!!!!!!

If Spike had stayed away, Buffy wouldn't have fallen into the basement. Her shadow wouldn't have gained control of her. BAD! BAD!! BAD!!!!!
[> [> What does 'mutual rape' mean? -- Tchaikovsky, 02:23:39 03/07/03 Fri

Seems a nonsensical word to attempt to validate your dislike of the relationship to me. Both parties consented in 'Smashed'. It wasn't romantic, and it wasn't healthy. But neither side was forcing themself on the other. Either could have stopped if they had wished.

TCH
[> [> [> OK, understand better after reading your 'Wrecked' section -- Tchaikovsky, 05:02:55 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> The dancing boys -- Malandanza, 04:33:41 03/08/03 Sat

"Back to Spike. Both Buffy and Spike's interpretation of the kiss are partially right and partially wrong. "


I think that Spike's interpretation was far from partially correct. Here's what he had to say to Buffy about the kiss:


SPIKE: You're a tease, Slayer. Know that? Get a fella's motor revvin', let the tension marinate a couple of days, then -bam! Crown yourself the Ice Queen.

BUFFY: (still walking) You need any more metaphors for that li'l mix?

SPIKE: Only a matter of time before you realize. I'm the only one here for you, pet! You got no one else!


Compare that with Amy and the dancing boys:

Ryan and Simon come up.

RYAN: Come on. We're just getting started.

AMY: I'm gonna sit this one out.

SIMON: (laughs) Nuh-uh. You don't get us worked up like that and then just --

He starts pulling her towards the dance floor.

(Smashed)

Buffy is right -- Spike is "awfully fixated on a couple of kisses." He caught her at her lowest point and took advantage of her despair and he's trying to hold her to some implied (implied in Spike's mind, anyway) -- what, exactly? Agreement to have sex with him? She's under some sort of sexual obligation to him? How does that work?

The dancing boys are obviously in the wrong, but they are a strong parallel to Buffy/Spike. Spike is completely out of line at the start of the episode.
[> Wrecked (a bit about Willow) -- lunasea, 17:35:06 03/06/03 Thu

Can't do Wrecked without getting into Willow's problem a bit.

Willow, in a nutshell, has an identity problem. Go back to Restless and you see how she still sees herself. Magic is how Willow fights that identity. She doesn't want to be High School Willow, but feels that is who she is deep down inside. Strong Willow is based on 2 things, her relationship with Tara and magic. She cannot handle when either show weakness.

In "Wrecked" she has lost Tara and after an all-night bender with Amy, she finds the limits of her magic. Her ego needs a boost, enter in Rack. Thing is, when she realizes that she has a problem (because her life is out of control), she breaks down. She is very emotional and gets help.

Now we are going to compare that to Buffy (I know the above is sketchy and not nearly what Willow deserves). I love the editing of this show. They are drawing a parallel between Buffy's problem with Spike and Willow's problem with magic. Thing is, not only are they saying that Buffy's problem is similar to Willow's, but the similarities highlight the difference.

Now I am going to get into serious Spuffy criticism. This is only my opinion based on my own experiences. Your experiences differ, so your interpretation probably does. This is just for another perspective, just a rather passionate one. I hope yours is equally as passionate.

Why does Buffy sleep with Spike? Many interpret it to be her attraction to the dark. If only it were that easy. Sex on BtVS is great and deals with something that few sex scenes do. Let's go back to the first time we see it, Buffy and Angel. Angel looses his soul because of this. Great drama, great plot device, but great statement about sex.

Angel was so lost in the moment of the experience, the fact that The Judge was alive and after them didn't matter. Angel was so lost that he could forget his entire past. Remember broody Angel that most of us love? That Angel couldn't have lost his soul. The Angel that made love to Buffy was 100% there in the moment. Nothing else mattered. He wasn't doing it to forget his past. He was physically expressing how he felt about Buffy. I call it sensual communications. THAT is great sex. Whether that actors pulled it off adequately (I think they did a great job and it is no wonder that SMG went out with DB), that Angel lost his soul states what sort of sex it was.

Buffy's next sex partner is Parker. In the words of Buffy "Parker bad," but Parker shows something important about Buffy. She doesn't do casual sex. Her fire is too intense for her not to confuse casual sex with something deeper. He isn't just a rebound from Angel. Buffy's reaction to that rebound says what kind of woman she is.

Now to Spuffy sex (does anyone really want me to go into Riley sex). When Buffy has sex, she is in the moment. When you are in the moment, you aren't in hell. Buffy doesn't just have fun sex. She completely looses herself in the moment. There is no ego. There are no problems to deal with. There is no past, not future.

That is why Buffy has sex with Spike. It is her way to run from everything that is causing her Dark Night. She isn't running to his or her darkness. She is running from her own Dark Night. I will get more into this in "Gone."

Now for the show. We open with not with Buffy and Spike, but with Dawn and Tara. Dawn is the link that connects the parallels between Willow and Buffy.

But then we get the classic "Morning After scene." Buffy finally notices that the house has fallen down around them. She isn't completely clueless yet. We have Spike thinking it is more than it is and Buffy not able to reduce being able to put her life off for a while longer.

This is why I call it mutual rape. Besides the obvious violence and rage that are present, neither are consenting to what the other is getting out of it. Buffy is using Spike to avoid her Dark Night. Spike is trying to force something between himself and Buffy on a more emotional level. That is rape, non-consensual sex. Poor Spike is confusing Buffy's inability to say no with something more (but so do some in the audience).

We get Buffy trying to go home, because of Dawn, and Spike won't let her. Spike, representative of her desire for escape and shadow, vs Dawn, representative of her mundane responsibilities and ego. We get into the meat of the conflict here. Buffy almost gives into the escape and shadow. Her Dark Night is going to be a doozie.

Spike makes a major mistake by confusing her feelings for Angel with "vampires get you hot." As shadow, Spike is trying to paint everything as bad. That isn't Buffy. At this point, Buffy can still walk away though and she does. When Spike tries to drag down the beauty that is Angel and Buffy's relationship, she decides not to escape, if escape means that.

Now I am going to go on about Angel and Buffy (feel free to gag if you need to). Angel and Buffy are true love. When you loose yourself in True love, you really do get to heaven. What made Buffy and Angel so hard was when they couldn't be together that was hell. The curse ripped her from Heaven before she even died. This cannot be touched. It is pure and beautiful and it is Buffy's link to heaven. Everytime someone tries, it will snap some sense into her. Have to see how that plays out S7.

Back to the show. We have both Willow and Buffy needing sleep during the day, hallmark of playing in the dark (Buffy is playing in the dark because that is where her convenient escape is. If she had a nooner, she would do that instead). When you play in the dark, you don't get to be in the light. Dawn is left alone as both women head for bed. Dawn is the light, even her name.

Then we get the pretty obvious scene doing research at the Magic Box. First Buffy is trying to keep them on the practical matter of finding the diamond monster rather than the emotional world of the wedding. Watch the interplay of wedding talk throughout this season. Buffy is running from emotions. See how this plays out in regards to the wedding, the height of emotion. She briefly enters the talk, when wearing larvae becomes an issue, a practical matter in the midst of the emotional wedding that involves her.

Back to research. The cannot find anything. Alternatives are brought up, but Buffy is doing her avoidance dance and no Spike and no "distractions." She is just running from things. First she used Spike to run from not feeling and life and not she is running from that. She knows on some level that none of this is going to help, but she still tries it out.

Then we get into talk about "Willow." Not everything on the show can bs subtle and subtexts. This does show how her state of mind is affecting her interpretation of things (which goes back to the class talk in Life Serial). She is also trying to convince herself about her ability to stop seeing Spike. Even at this point, with a few kisses and one night of sex and forgetting, she realizes the temptation for escape is great. She isn't completely oblivious yet.

We get Rack, who speeds up Willow's magic, just like Spike speeds up what Buffy has to deal with. Neither is actually helping and is in it for their own gratification. Magical abilities have to grow slow for a reason. Same thing with dealing with our shadow.

Buffy finds Amy in the house. Amy, Willow and Buffy are three variations on the theme of ego. Amy looses her ego being a rat and regains it. Her way of dealing with this is Rack. Willow is trying so hard not to be a particular ego, high school Willow. She deals with this with Rack, but when she discovers she has a problem, she is very emotional and gets help. Buffy has no ego. When she discovers she has a problem, she has nothing that can get her out of it. She doesn't get emotional. She doesn't get help.

This episode sets up Willow's problem, but it also shows Willow crashing (which sounds too close to smashed and crush) AND getting help. Buffy, who is in the same boat, hasn't crashed and doesn't get help. We will watch Willow battle her demons and Buffy fuck hers.

One thing I like about Spike is he knows everything about the underworld. Angel's speciality is in demon lore and Spike's is more in the current underworld. When Buffy said Rack, he knew what she was talking about. Angel is more like the books and Giles and Spike is more like Buffy, the Hand out in the street. Doesn't mean they are compatible, though. A couple should be someone who fills gaps. Spike doesn't do this (a compliment for Spike and a criticism of Spuffy)

Spike and Buffy's relationship has changed. He is back to calling her Slayer again. He, being the shadow, wants to see her shadow, her dark side. He doesn't acknowledge her as the light she is. Instead he thinks he understands her; that she belongs in the dark, that he knows what she tastes like, that she likes to play in the dirt, that she craves him (rather than the escape he offers). He cannot love her because he doesn't see all of her. Only someone with a soul can. He wants her darkness. She is much more than that.

That is also why his interpretations only are partially correct. He sees the darkness in people, what they are hiding from themselves. That is rather perceptive, but he doesn't see the other parts. As such, his observations aren't complete. He can give them a piece they don't have, but they need to take the rest of them into account to understand it.

Willow crashes, Dawn's in trouble (and screams), Buffy goes into a certain mode and ego is reestablished temporarily. With Dark Night it is only temporary. You know it is a sham and eventually, things will fall apart again. But at the end, Buffy assumes, Slayer, loving sister and good friend mantles again.

With this, she is able to temporarily resist Spike. This is symbolized by Spike walking off with Dawn and Buffy staying behind with Willow. Then we get the double conversation between Buffy and Willow. We end with Willow sweating out her addiction and Buffy in a position we aren't used to seeing her in, scared shitless. Willow has admitted her problems to another human being (think 12 steps). Buffy hasn't. Buffy is in trouble.

And we finally get a show that doesn't end with them kissing, but what an ending. The alternative to kissing is Buffy feeling scared about kissing. Poor Buffy.
[> [> Really feel the need to compliment you -- KdS, 06:23:14 03/07/03 Fri

He, being the shadow, wants to see her shadow, her dark side. He doesn't acknowledge her as the light she is. Instead he thinks he understands her; that she belongs in the dark, that he knows what she tastes like, that she likes to play in the dirt, that she craves him (rather than the escape he offers). He cannot love her because he doesn't see all of her. Only someone with a soul can. He wants her darkness. She is much more than that.

That is also why his interpretations only are partially correct. He sees the darkness in people, what they are hiding from themselves. That is rather perceptive, but he doesn't see the other parts. As such, his observations aren't complete. He can give them a piece they don't have, but they need to take the rest of them into account to understand it.

I must admit, I don't share your idealisation of the Buffy/Angel relationship - but this is the summation of my own opinion of S6 Spike that I wish I'd been articulate enough to come up with.
[> [> [> Thanks. I'm sure after I do my post on Spike, people won't find me so irrational any more. -- lunasea, 06:34:14 03/07/03 Fri

[> Gone -- lunasea, 17:42:32 03/06/03 Thu

Now for Gone. Who hasn't felt invisible? Contrast Buffy's reaction to being invisible with Marcie's in "Invisible Girl." Sure with no ego, you feel invisible, that is pretty obvious symbolism, much like what happens to Buffy in "Life Serial." What makes this episode great is her reaction to it.

In the Dark Night, we want to get back to the formless freedom. Being invisible was close to this. Buffy revelled in it. She wasn't upset. She already felt like a non-entity. Now her visible status reflected it. Instead of feeling like something bad happened to her, she took advantage of it. It was the closest she has been to happy this entire season. How it ends reflects this.

The show opens with Buffy getting rid of anything mystical. She is doing it for Willow, but it symbolizes her letting go of it also. Dawn is not happy about this, but Buffy really has no problem. Not just because it helps Willow, but because it doesn't mean anything to her.

That is until she finds Spike's lighter. She manages to get rid of things that even belongs to her mother, but Spike's lighter doesn't go into the box, as we find out later. So we have a big box of mystical stuff. What does this box do? Gets Buffy in trouble with the Social Worker who thinks that it contains less-than-wholesome stuff and represents a threat to Dawn. The Social has no idea how right she is.

Yet another breakfast scene. Breakfast, the threshold between night and day. A family gathering together to break fast. Watch how it is used this season and even S7. Instead of showing family closeness, it highlights the disconnectedness among the characters. In Wrecked we get it to underscore Dawn being abandoned by Willow and Buffy.

In Gone we get it to show Dawn's reaction to what happened in Wrecked. Buffy is being lumped together with Willow as bad guy. Why not? Buffy has no identity of her own. Why not piggy back her onto Willow? This disconnectedness is punctuated by the visit from the Social Worker.

But first we get treated to more Spike. He comes for his lighter, his fire maker. Buffy's love is bright like the fire. He ventures out into the day (and risks personal harm) in order to get *his* lighter back.

We are saved from having to watch them screw in the kitchen (which some may not consider being saved) by Xander. Think of Xander's role in Grave, he connects Willow back to her humanity. Same thing with his role and Buffy. He brings Dawn into the picture and what is good about her life, thus allowing Buffy to resist Spike.

In enters the Social Worker. Poor Buffy. She has to present an ego to this woman in order to keep Dawn and she doesn't have one. Time has such little meaning for Buffy, that she doesn't realize it is Wednesday.

We get Spike screwing with Buffy's mundane life, AGAIN. He doesn't mean to. He tries to help, but he is so out of place he doesn't know how and ends up mucking things up. The blanket was a great touch. Spike sleeping with Buffy is messing her up and it is one of the things that go into the negative perception the Social Worker is forming.

Then the Social Worker catches Buffy in a small lie, Dawn and Buffy don't live alone. We have Dawn being tardy, magic weed, Spike and lying, unemployment--all things that go to the negative impression the Social Worker gets and all things symbolic of things that are messing up Buffy.

Spike didn't leave (there is a surprise). He doesn't do his usual physical "manipulation" of her, like he did in the kitchen. Instead he just takes his lighter, his fire maker.

I LOVED the hair cutting scene. Done that myself. It is precipitated by Spike's comments about her hair. She is trying for a change and she wants to be less attractive to him. What is super great is that her friends, the light, absolutely love it. It also pokes fun of the fans that comment about this or that character's hair. Have to love a show that does that.

Thing is altering our physical appearance may be a temporary pick-me-up, but it is only temporary. Spike doesn't exactly hate Buffy after this. Then she gets the ultimate alteration of her physical appearance, she goes invisible.

Great transition with the wedding tables. More emotional talk. Where is Buffy? Same table as Xander's family. Makes a humorous bit, but Xander's family is rather disfunctional. That is where Buffy is, but Xander doesn't want her to be. He loves her.

Great mention of Invisible Girl to remind us why Buffy went invisible and how her reaction is different. I liked that Anya was supportive (the hair comments) even though Buffy was invisible. She may have lost her visibility, but not the support of her friends.

Then Buffy goes out for some fun. Loved the fashion police and playing with the meter man. Seemed to be a bit non-by-the-books Buffy. With invisibility came a tremendous freedom.

She goes to fix things with social services. Not totally nice Buffy. Really funny and gets the job done. She is trying to make the Social Worker a little loopy, just like she is. The reference to "The Shining" is great, but not a movie I have ever (or will ever) seen. I am sure someone else could go into the reference/the movie, besides it shows how nuts she is.

So now we have to be subjected to another Spike sex scene, minus SMG. Her line was great "I told you ... stop trying to see me." He cannot see her, so he has no power on her this time. She is the one in control. She can forget about things for a while and it isn't real, since he cannot see her. She isn't really there.

I did like that he recognized her touch, even if she was invisible. At least he knows her that much.

Then we find out that invisibility has a price, a high price, a pudding price. Buffy's non-existant ego isn't without drawbacks. It will give her the ultimate formlessness, if it continues.

Back to Spuffy sex, this time without the benefit of SMG. Xander interrupts again (just call him interupto man. He does that a lot when it comes to Spuffy. I like Xander). Spike's words this time are dead on. Buffy has given up on ego and is playing with shadow now. He is good with shadow. She need to give up both to end her Dark Night.

Spike says, "You need to go. Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather-" but this time the tables are turned and Buffy "manipulates" Spike. This time we don't have to see it.

Buffy goes home, upset that her escape mechanism wants more. If he knew her, he would know she doesn't want more. If he was soooo like her, he wouldn't want more. Dynamics have changed a bit after this episode.

She is home later than she is supposed to be. Dawn is supposed to come home right after school and doesn't. More neglect of mundane life for her escape with Spike. Dawn doesn't like Buffy invisible. Buffy thinks it is a hoot and it freaks Dawn out. Dawn=light. Light not liking all this license. It isn't freedom. Buffy went from freedom to license. She played with people and went for her escape. NOT GOOD.

Then she finds out the price of invisibility and isn't so happy any more. Ego doesn't want to die. Dawn's last words are "How can I talk to you if I can't see you?" It is a real fear in Dark Night. You don't want to give up Ego because if you do, how do you relate to others? People really don't talk to each other, they talk to images they have of others. I talk to other PTA mom's or enlisted wives or my husband/kids father. We cannot grasp the entirety of another's personality or how changing they are, so we end up talking to how we see them. Dark Night shows us that we are just talking to an image and we don't know how to relate to that.

Then there are the little bads of S6, the Trio. Aren't they cute? They think the are super-villians, and all bad. We know better. Their ego is what does them in (much as Willow's does at the end). There is stuff I could say here, but the other stuff I've said is more interesting.

I love Willow's reaction. The very first thing is about Buffy's hair, something that *really* doesn't matter. At the very end, they do talk about something that does matter. They connect and they both have made an important step. For Buffy, it is she doesn't want to die any more. She went to see Spike that day, so how much of a step is it?

Still, she realized that being invisible didn't solve her problems. That is what Dark Night is about, figuring out what doesn't solve our problems.
[> [> Re: Gone -- Celebaelin, 10:23:04 03/07/03 Fri

I did like that he recognized her touch, even if she was invisible. At least he knows her that much.

I interpreted that as Buffy doing something so intimate, and so familiar, that it couldn't be anyone/anything else. I suppose this is similar to your comment but with a different emphasis I think, especially in the context of your interpretation of the sexual metaphors of the 'demon' in DMP wrt Buffy.
[> Doublemeat Palace -- lunasea, 17:54:46 03/06/03 Thu

Written by my favorite writer (tied with Joss, of course. Marti is third), but probably my least favorite episode. This time around, I tried to see what Jane was trying to do.

Basically, I think its major problem is it didn't really advance the story or show us anything new about the characters. It was symbolic and all, but that was about it. It was well crafted, in terms of how things interlinked and paralleled each other. Not something I really would watch again and again. Pretty much every other episode Jane has penned I have watched so many times, I have them memorized.

I tried to take this in context with the other 3 excellent shows she wrote S6. How many writers get to write 3 episodes in a row (Hint, none), let alone at the beginning of the season? She set up the stuff in S5 that leads to S6 also. If anyone understands this stuff, it is Jane Espenson.

She set up the theme of this season and it should show in this middle episode. It does, but other stuff has been put on top of it by then and the audience wants that stuff advanced too.

One thing that is notably missing is the Trio. She is even the one that sets up Warren with "I Was Made To Love You" back in S5. She wrote Jonathan into a bigger character in "Earshot." She does "Flooded" and "Life Serial," which further sets up the Little Bads for S6. They aren't in DoubleMeat Palace. That in of itself is pretty telling.

The Trio are torturing Buffy with their twists on reality that mirror how she feels. In DoubleMeat Palace, they aren't required. Life itself tortures Buffy, without the twists being needed.

The show is really 2, in regards to Buffy. We have a painful demonstration of Buffy trying to get along in the mundane world and then towards the end, we have a demon thrown in. It might have been a better show without this. Great symbolism, but the first part gets lost in it. The first part is the important part.

It is easy to dismiss Buffy being miserable working at the DMP. Who wouldn't be? Look at everyone around her. However, she doesn't start out that way. We almost see happy Buffy again towards the beginning. She even makes jokes. We watch her deteriorate as the show progresses. This show, in the middle of the season, is a recap of Buffy getting more and more depressed, feeling more and more different, being able to cope less and less, becoming more and more resolved to her life of drudgery.

But notice the pins the managers wear. At the beginning, the male manager wants her to aim for 10 years. At the end, the female manager wants her to aim for 5 years. This show is not only about the deterioration of Buffy, but shows the beginnings of her recovery. The season can be divided by this episode.

Now onto specific comment about the show.

First an aside about the Trio. The Little Bads mirror the Big Bads. The Big Bad is Willow. In the opening of the show, the gang talks about what the "lair" was like, nerd central. That is what Willow is fighting, her image of herself as high school/nerd Willow.

Whole lot of symbolism in this episode. I don't really feel like getting into all of it, but I will hit on the highlights:

DoubleMeat Medley: Chicken and Cow together, two things that are mismatched and not normally together. How do they get together-- massive slaughter. Buffy is a DoubleMeat Patty.

The grinder: figures fairly heavily into this show, but Buffy never actually works it. She is not in control of the mixing. Willow is the one that puts the demon in the grinder. Buffy is paralyzed, but it is wearing off.

The DoubleMeat Patty is actually vegetable: It isn't what it appears to be. It is flavored with what it is supposed to be. Few know this and it is a secret that must be kept for people's peace of mind. Again, this is Buffy.

More about the "Secret Ingredient": It is a process, not an actual thing, or so Buffy is told repeatedly. It isn't something that she can put her finger on. That is until she investigates and finds out what it is. This episode really shows the beginnings of Buffy's recovery.

The Locker: It is available, since no one is using it, but it is still full. Like Buffy. She doesn't feel there, but she is still full of the previous ego's contents. She can either "toss it, or keep what you want."

We get the wonderful world of fast food, where everything is homogized and you are part of a team. Buffy is an individual and doesn't feel part of anything. In prior episodes, Buffy was the odd one out because of her depression. In this episode, it is her sunny disposition that makes her different.

The show starts off with a video that is trying to make homogenized people. Manny the manager, not a joke, is trying to continue this process. He gets her to say that she is there to be part of the team. Contrast this with "Anne." She is giving in.

We have a place with high turnover. We find out that is a cover for a demon smogasboard, but fast food does have a high turnover rate. People get tired of it and move on to better things. Buffy is doing this herself. She is finding out what doesn't work and moving on.

Buffy tries so hard throughout the episode to maintain her outlook. The people are people, individuals. She is concerned about them when she thinks something is happening to them.

Buffy's friends come to support her. Anya can only talk about the wedding (like what Bride has anything else on her mind). She tries to get them to support her theory that something weird is going on. They don't agree "I think you're seeing demons where there's just life." Buffy ends up being right. Not sure if I agree with this. Then again, it goes with the recovery part to the show. We could probably talk about if the demon at the end added or detracted from the show. I could go either way. I do understand about the genre they are dealing with.

After her friends come, then of course, Spike shows up. Buffy is going to take a break, when Spike's presences prevents her. He has some great lines, as usual. Buffy was cracking jokes earlier, even the moment before Spike showed up. Now Spike is the one cracking them and Buffy goes all serious. The dynamics of that scene were great. Spike starts off being a wise ass and insulting her. Then he switches into trying to take care of her. Just how these two actors/characters play off of each other is fun to watch.

Just keep in mind that Spike is Buffy's shadow. He is pelting her with self-doubt. He is that voice we all have in us (that usually sounds like our parents) that says our ego is wrong. Thing is, he isn't completely right either.

More DM talk. Lots of symbolism.

Hallie is in the episode. Why this one? Hallie is casting the same sort of doubts in Anya that Spike is doing to Buffy. Anya's character is interesting in that she used to be shadow and now thinks herself as ego, but isn't really. She isn't much of anything.

Buffy goes for a "break" and that involves Spike. Spike is Buffy's break, but it sure doesn't look remotely enjoyable, at least for Buffy. It isn't just the nature of it, but the look on her face. This episode is a turning point.

Cut to Amy and Willow. Not going to go into Willow, but what happens mirrors Buffy and Spike sex in an alley. Spike gives Buffy her fix, but just like it didn't help Willow get high, it didn't help Buffy.

We get The DoubleMeat Medley may be human. Buffy is the DMM. She is worried about not being what she is supposed to be. Turns out it isn't something it is supposed to be, but at least it isn't human. Vegetables are actually better for you. Who Buffy is (love) is actually better than human ego. She will find this out (eventually, I hope). She is love flavored.

Willow is using chemistry, not magic this time. Buffy relies on the mundane world of DMP in order to get money, rather than Spike.

Then we get a demon, something Buffy knows. Thing is, it paralyzes her, even biting her right shoulder (right =conscious, ego). Willow has to save her. We get Willow confessing about being juiced and how hard it was, still don't get Buffy confessing about Spike.

Buffy takes her knowledge of the "secret ingredient" (see above) and parlays that into a way to get along in the mundane world. She doesn't use it to take advantage of the DMP, but to find a way to work, to fit in.

The episode ends with Buffy accepting her mundane reality, rather than with Spuffy crap.

It was an interesting show if you watch the change in Buffy throughout the episode. The show is important not just in what is shows, but what it doesn't.
[> [> Re: Doublemeat Palace -- Celebaelin, 10:40:53 03/07/03 Fri

Do you think Buffy requiring Willow's help to stop the demon from devouring her works well in parallel with Willow needing Buffy's help to stop the magic from 'devouring' her? IMO The mutual support re-enforces the closeness of the Buffy - Willow friendship and prevents Buffy from being lost in the depressing, sleazy, lucklustre, reality of her life as demon-fodder on subsistence level wages.

Both characters are more than their current circumstances will allow and they must (and seemingly do) encourage each other to hold on to this fact rather than forget or deny it.
[> [> [> I agree (speculation for S7 based on Selfless) -- lunasea, 11:02:39 03/07/03 Fri

In Selfless we were teased by Willow telling Buffy that she never told Xander to tell her to "kick his ass." That comment was very important in the Buffy-Willow relationship. It was the first time that Buffy didn't feel that Willow was supporting her feelings. If Buffy didn't think that Willow was against her, she might have opened up to her and maybe even not run away.

One thing Buffy has to learn this season is that even when she makes these hard decisions, they do take their tole on her emotionally and she has to talk about these things. Buffy admited S3 that it was Angel she sent to hell and it made her feel better. Now she needs to admit that "kick his ass" hurt her, especially coming from Willow. To deal with her superiority complex, she will have to admit how these decisions affect her.

If she does manage to bring this up, she will find out that Willow is a lot more supportive than she thought. It will be good for both of them and their relationship.

There are 4 keys to beating the First: The friendship of Willow, the familial love of Dawn, the true love of Angel (whether they are together or not) and the general love of humanity (represented by Spike). I have a feeling that the final 5 episode arc will deal with acknowledging each of these to give Buffy an incredible strength.
[> [> [> [> Like that a lot -- Celebaelin, 23:48:43 03/07/03 Fri

[> Dead Things (really long and major Spuffy criticism) -- lunasea, 18:06:07 03/06/03 Thu

Written by another excellent writer, Steven DeKnight (no wonder he got every other Angelus episode). His perspective differs a bit from Jane's. His symbolism rests more on how something is done rather than objects themselves. He got 3 episodes S6, so he is important to this arc and does understand it well.

First thing, anyone who sees this episode and still is a Spuffy shipper, you are sick and should consider getting psychological counseling (just kidding. People really shouldn't take half of what I say seriously. Most of it is just blowing off steam)

Warned you there was severe Spuffy criticism. This episode gets a lot of that. If you don't want to see that, I suggest not reading any further.

This episode is Spike/Buffy's shadow really trying to manipulate/control Buffy. This culminates in "Seeing Red," written by the same writer. The other episode Steven writes is "All the Way" the episode that highlights how special Angel and Buffy are. Then we get this episode and finally Seeing Red.

Before I continue with the specifics of this episode, I want to digress into Dawn. Buffy is torn between her need for escape with Spike and her need to be protector to Dawn. Dawn is the light, hope. Not only does Buffy feel pulled towards Dawn, but Dawn rejects Buffy, repeatedly. If Dawn had not done this, even Spike wouldn't have pulled Buffy down so low. It is Dawn rejection coupled with Spike that causes Buffy to Spiral (another episode Steven wrote) down.

Steven is very good at writing about the connection between Dawn and Buffy and how this is important to her. If Dawn is remotely watchable prior to S7, it is in his episodes. It isn't in her character, but in Buffy's interaction with her, that Dawn lies.

Buffy is rejected by Dawn and rejects Spike. She neither belongs in the light or the dark. That is the Dark Night of the Soul, to bring it back to the topic of this thread. When it comes to Dawn, Buffy needs a revelation similar to Angels. She need to learn that it doesn't matter if your kids reject you (teens tend to do that any way). You still love them and still need to be there for them. How they act shouldn't determine how you act.

Now onto the show.

We open with Spuffy sex. Spike and Buffy actually start to connect. Then Spike has to ruin it. He always does. He did it by saying she had a thing for vampires, earlier. He tries to take something beautiful, something that exists in the light, and bring it into the dirt and dark with him.

That is what Spike tries to do. He takes the light, like Buffy, and tries to taint it so that he can bring it into the dark. That is what this episode is all about.

In the pillow talk, he screws up and calls Buffy an animal. She recovers from this by wanting to go back to Dawn, to the light. Spike decides to test her, does she trust him?

That was the button that Buffy tried to push when she wanted to hurt Angel in "Sanctuary." (following both shows really does add another level). She says that it is different with Riley because she can trust Riley. Buffy has trusted Angel with more than anyone, including Spike. She probably told Angel about heaven when they met off-screen. She told him about Spordelia and "probably." Angel knows that Buffy trusts him and doesn't let things end like that. He knows she is lashing out and that is something he understands.

But what about Spike? Buffy is damned either way. If she doesn't trust, she is using him. If she does, she is giving into the darkness. Now it is Spike's turn. He gives her a chance to say that she isn't using him. If she trusts him, there is something there. That is what Spike wants, but for Buffy, it turns the shadow into the ego. That won't help her. She has to burn away shadow and ego. Spike just thinks she needs to exchange them. Bad Spike.

The Trio is back, with a cerebral dampener. How do you think Buffy's Dark Night makes her feel? Warren has a sexbot and built the Buffybot for Spike. He uses the cerebral dampener to turn the object of his affections into his sex slave. Spike uses Buffy's Dark Night the same way.

The demons and villans reflect the main characters. They aren't randomly written. The shows are carefully crafted. That is what separates them from B-movies, even when they are doing B-movies.

Warren kills Katrina when she tried to get away. Not on purpose, but he wasn't going to let her leave. Steven De Knight wrote "Seeing Red." Warren's actions are foreshadowing Spike's. Steven wrote episodes 6.06, 6.13, and 6.19. He was setting up something specific with his episodes that logically culminates in Seeing Red. ME didn't manufacture the rape to make Spike unappealing. Dead Things did that.

We see Buffy at the DMP and she is fitting in with her own spin. It is nice to see happy Buffy again. Buffy is on the upswing.

Tara comes in to help Buffy. We get some Tara/Willow stuff, but the important part is Buffy wanting to find out if she came back normal. Remember the DoubleMeat Medley, not what it seems like. Buffy has come up enough to be able to question if she is ok.

In this episode she tells Tara, another human being, not only that Spike can hit her, but that she has been sleeping with him and they do not-so-good things. In this episode, Spike looses his hold on Buffy and he reacts to this.

Great line: "Oh, time has no meaning here." Time has no meaning in the Dark Night and it will have no time if she finds her way out of it. Time isn't real. It is a human construct. It only has meaning to those concerned with the past or the future. Buffy throughout the season has similar lines. The Trio's demons often have to do with time, as they do in this episode.

The parallels between Warren (and Katrina) and Spike (and Buffy) are pretty obvious. Warren likes the entire package of Katrina. He isn't just interested in her beauty, that is that how it was in "I Was Made To Love You." In "Dead Things" he is content to have his sex slave and is willing to give her to Andrew and Jonathan after he is done.

Katrina wants nothing to do with Warren and Buffy wants nothing to do with Spike. Neither guy accepts this and manipulates their woman to get what they want. Katrina even thinks that Warren is beneath her and that she lowered herself by being with him.

The switch in Katrina, caused by the cerebral dampener, mirrors the change Buffy has had because of her Dark Night. When the cerebral dampener doesn't work and it doesn't have the juice to be activated again, we are foreshadowing what will happen to Buffy. Eventually the Dark Night brightens (with the Dawn) and when it happens Spike will not be able to control Buffy.

We get Dawn rejecting Buffy, but at least Buffy doesn't go to Spike. She goes to the Bronze for frosty nectar. That is an improvement. Willow and Buffy aren't quite with the fun Xander and Anya are having, but at least Willow does try. Buffy hasn't come far enough to actually get out on the dance floor. But it is a start. The recovery that started in DMP is continuing. It isn't easy, especially with Dawn rejecting her, but it is coming along.

Since Buffy didn't go to Spike. Spike came to Buffy. Did anyone else get the impression that Spike wasn't actually there and it was all imagined in Buffy's head? That scene between them was the best out of all their interactions. It really showed what was going on. Depending on what Steven writes this year, he may become my 3rd favorite writer (and so far he is doing great, but now he is competing with Mere and Tim). He is incredibly talented.

After that scene on the balcony at the Bronze (whenever someone goes up there, I want to scream "don't!" Good things don't happen there) how can anyone be a Spuffy shipper? Bad Spike. Bad Shadow.

Next time we see Buffy, it is again at night. As she went into her Dark Night, we got less day scenes. As she comes out of it, we will get more. BtVS isn't exactly a day show, but the play of day and night are very important to the show. Willow's scene with Tara was in the day. That cuts to Buffy at night in the cemetary.

Yeah Buffy!!!!! She didn't go into Spike's crypt. She went to it, but didn't go in. She is making progress. We get an incredibly well done scene with the Rwasundi. I pretty much already talked about the symbolism here.

One thing to add. Buffy ran off, leaving Spike to fight the Rwasundi. He is even straddling a demon. Buffy runs off to see what happened to Katrina. She is concerned with the human. When she thinks she has killed her, it destroys her (plot hole. Spike should have noticed she had been dead for a while). This shows that Buffy is leaving the shadow and is more concerned with other things. Spike is loosing his hold on her.

We get another well done dream sequence. ME does dreams better than anyone else. I loved how the handcuffs figured into the dream. Just as the handcuffs were about trust, so is this dream. If Buffy doesn't turn herself in, she cannot trust herself.

Start with Spike, actually in her bed. He is invading her personal space. She cannot trust him enough to think that he will not to do this. (she is right) A secret between them is about trust. You trust someone not to reveal it. She knows she can trust Spike on that level and so in her dream gives in to him.

Next we go to Spike's crypt. She gave into Spike in her bedroom, so now they have descended to the shadow again. This time Spike is in handcuffs, showing how much he trusts her.

This is followed by the fighting in the forest. This time Katrina is handcuffed. Katrina stands for humanity. The slayer is to protect humanity and in some way we trust that.

We get some sex stuff which ends with Buffy staking Spike. Katrina and Spike are being intercut in the dream. There is other symbolism, but that is the gist. It isn't just the symbolism, but how they lead to each other that is important to this dream. That is how Steven writes. Jane's and even Joss' tend to stand more on their own. The meat of Steven's symbolism is more dynamic.

Buffy talks to Dawn and Dawn rejects her. She feels rejected by Buffy. We get the light talking about the Dark Night. "Then go! You're not really here anyway. " If we aren't here, people don't know how to relate to us. If we aren't here, we might as well be gone. That is why ego fights so hard and the Dark Night is so hard to get out of.

Then the Shadow/Spike weighs in. He is only concerned with Buffy. He tries, unsuccesfully (as Spike tends to be), to hide the evidence. He doesn't want her to go either. Both Ego and Shadow are fighting what Buffy knows to be right. She is not only able to resist the Shadow, but beats him up. Then she can do what she knows is right.

(Spike gives anger an outward focus, so Buffy's depression translates to Spike's bruised face)

Spike thinks this moment is like when Luke faces the Emperor "If you strike me down, your trip to the Dark Side will be complete." He still doesn't see Buffy's light. He cannot love her, if he cannot see her. He doesn't understand why killing Katrina kills Buffy inside. He doesn't understand why being with him is killing her.

Buffy barely does herself, as evidenced by her exchange with Tara. It is easier to think that she came back wrong than to see why she is doing what she does. Coming back wrong is something she could deal with. The Dark Night isn't.

When I started it, I figured it was standard mental illness. That was something that could be handled. That was something that could be fixed. It was trying to fix it that prolonged it. What made the Dawn come was just accepting, everything. It was not trying anymore. I was so scared that if I stopped trying, I would get worse. When I did stop, I got better, a whole lot better, completely better. It wasn't a process either. It was like the snap of fingers.

Poor Buffy. Her entire self-image is blown. Now what does she have? If it is OK to abuse Spike, her world view is blown. She has nothing. Her focus is on trying to get out and the more she focuses on that, the more she can't get out. She doesn't want to be forgiven, because she knows it won't work and if that doesn't work, what will. As long as no one forgives her, she has hope that forgiveness will work.

I see that with a lot of people. They would rather blame someone, anyone, than just be the loving individuals they are. When we see "injustice" we have to get upset. It keeps our world view safe. Even if the world isn't safe, there are judgment rules that give it order. If bad things happen to good people, that is unfair. The unfair makes it neat and tidy. Our anger feeds this order.

Will get into this a lot more with Grave.
[> [> Wasn't going to get into this but... -- ponygirl, 08:47:31 03/07/03 Fri

I always have to step up the plate for Dead Things, it's an episode that no matter how many times I watch I always end up with my mouth open in shock and awe.

As you point out, for the whole first half of the episode we're set up to see connections between Buffy/Katrina and Spike/Warren, but then something really remarkable happens. The way I see it with Buffy's dream all these connections get reversed. The parallel instead becomes Spike/Katrina (Katrina at this point is only a Victim in Buffy's mind). It's not just that the two characters are intercut in the dream, they are meant to be seen as the same. They are seen in the same positions, Buffy raises the stake to strike Spike but it is Katrina who is staked.

To me it seems that Buffy had wanted to see herself as the victim. She was passive, things were being done to her. With the dream Buffy realizes that this is not so, that she bears responsiblity, and that the lines between victim/agressor, dominant/submissive, and light/shadow are far more blurred.

When she wakes up her immediate desire is to seek punishment, her belief in her own wrongness at this point seems to give her an almost comforting clarity. I would agree that Spike's motivations for trying to stop Buffy were selfish, and suggest that Dawn's were as well, but I would say that as much as Buffy felt she was doing the right thing in turning herself in, it was largely due to her desire to be punished. In taking responsibility for her actions she sought to surrender it again, if that makes any sense, to turn herself over to a larger authority to be judged. Of course the last unexpected twist in this very twisty episode is that Buffy gets what she least wanted, no judgement just forgiveness.
[> [> [> Good post! -- Rahael, 09:04:01 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> Interesting -- lunasea, 09:15:46 03/07/03 Fri

I agree with much of what you say, but
The parallel instead becomes Spike/Katrina (Katrina at this point is only a Victim in Buffy's mind). It's not just that the two characters are intercut in the dream, they are meant to be seen as the same. They are seen in the same positions, Buffy raises the stake to strike Spike but it is Katrina who is staked.

Means that Buffy sees Spike as a victim of what she is doing. how does that jive with beating him up outside the police station?

I saw it as what she was doing with Spike was interfering with how she treated others. She raised the stake to kill Spike, but instead ended up killing the innocent. (rather than victim, Katrina was an innocent). Because Buffy has been playing with Spike, she missed what was going on with Willow and Dawn. It was more that what she has been doing with Spike hasn't been an escape and it did have serious ramifications.

I don't think that she saw herself as the victim, so much as outside the realm of consequences. That was the only way she could do what she was doing. If there were consequences, she would have stopped. Buffy has too big a heart to hurt others.

When she turned herself in, it was her way of saying things do have consequences. Spike tried to stop her saying they didn't have to. He had been doing that all along with their relationship.

Riley, in AYW is really the one that shows her that things don't necessarily have to have consequences. That playing with Spike in the Dark didn't touch her.

In those two episodes we saw that actions have consequences, but that they don't have to change the actor.
[> [> [> [> Re: Interesting -- ponygirl, 09:44:57 03/07/03 Fri

"Means that Buffy sees Spike as a victim of what she is doing. how does that jive with beating him up outside the police station?"

Again I think the real key to Dead Things is Buffy's desire for punishment. In the course of the episode she comes to see that *she* is actually the one hurting other people - Katrina, Spike, Dawn (though Buffy fails to realize how she is hurting Dawn, Buffy thinks removing herself will solve the problem, the problem is actually her absence). When Spike confronts her the alley, the parallels to Who Are You, where Faith literally beat herself up, leap to mind. I took everything that Buffy said to Spike, every blow, as directed at herself. When she pulls back her horror is having done it *again* - hurt someone who didn't deserve it (and whatever one might say about Spike's actions in DT or previously I'd think most would agree the beating went way beyond what the situation may have called for) - Spike's words only confirm this. It strengthens Buffy's resolve that she must be put away, that she cannot trust herself in the world.
[> [> Re: Dead Things -- Celebaelin, 01:00:03 03/08/03 Sat

I'm not sure if you are deliberately inviting this comment or deliberately avoiding it, however at the risk of being obvious in an extrapolation of your ego and shadow theme...

In Jung's interpretation of The Rosarium Philosophorum (The Philosophers' Rose Garden) there is a depiction of the King and Queen (Sun and Moon, Brother and Sister, Animus and Anima, Ego and Shadow) in naked contact. The interpretation has been paraphrased as follows;

"King and Queen confront each other as they are, without conventional disguises. Both now have one flower each instead of two, symbolizing that two elements have paired off in a partial union. The naked contact represents the integration of the shadow with the ego. Assimilation of the shadow brings a return of the body. The conjunction of opposites. The soaring eagle of the ego and earthy toad of the shadow. Animal instinct and primitive consciousness merge without being repressed by fictions or illusions."

In view of the quoted passage above I don't think a great deal of further interpretation on my part is called for, whilst opinions of precise meaning might vary from person to person I think broadly, if you accept the interpretation to start with, the meaning is fairly clear. By the end of the episode things have changed for Buffy, she is becoming herself again.

On a more perfunctory level

He tries to take something beautiful, something that exists in the light, and bring it into the dirt and dark with him.

I saw this as Spike being aware that Buffy is not as deeply emotionally involved as he is, he has allowed William the poet back into the driving seat as it were but he is cautious enough to 'cover his own ass', at least conversationally. It's a cop out of course, 'I won't hurt you but you won't hurt me either so there nyah nyah na na na'. Whether he believes that, or whether he just wants Buffy to think that he believes that is another question. At any rate Buffy does hurt him later on both physically and emotionally in an eye for an eye manner, her actions referring back to his earlier behaviour towards her. Spike should probably be thankful that he is a (partially) reformed character, as Buffy now knows enough about him to be able to dust him if she so chose (didn't say would, said could). It is not beyond possibility that this is a part of Spikes motivation in becoming souled, to regain some defence against the Slayer(s).
[> [> [> Re: Dead Things -- lunasea, 07:33:54 03/08/03 Sat

Jung is always welcome. In case you haven't noticed, I use the term Unconscious, not SUBconscious when I write. His theories are probably my single greatest influence, hence why my screen name is the combination of two archetypes.

Not really sure how to phrase this, so pardon me if I ramble. I write like Jungians do, a bird circling a tree. Such is the side-effect of spending so much time with the unconscious.

I think the idea of integrating the shadow should be explored. But I really can't figure out the words right now. I will get back later. Taking a shower or a nap tends to get things from the unconscious to the conscious with me.
[> Older and Far Away (long) -- lunasea, 18:12:02 03/06/03 Thu

Is it just me, or do you think it is unfair that Willow and Xander never get a birthday party? They are people, too. Buffy needs to learn to celebrate her unbirthday. She might have better luck.

This is an episode basically saying that people are individuals and have lives. When we don't understand this, shit happens. This episode shows what ego is fighting for and why it is bad. Earlier S6 we saw the drawbacks of the Shadow. This episode is about the drawbacks of ego. Ego/light isn't all rainbows and unicorns.

We open with Dawn actually seeming understanding and nice. Buffy regrets having to leave her and go be Slayer. When Buffy leaves, Dawn's facade melts and we see how unhappy she is. We see where her anger at Buffy for what happened with Willow comes from, being left alone.

Is it just me, or is this not normal teen-age behavior? Did the Scoobies sit around saying that their families weren't around enough? A teen that wants to be around her sister/mother? Get real. Being a teen is about rebelling, about independence. Dawn is a nit.

"Gee I am so lonely." Then do like a normal teen and make some friends. Go suck face with some boy/girl (preferably human). Join some club at school. You don't fit any lock any more. Go be a teen. This is what makes Dawn the most annoying. Her life revolves around Buffy, so she expects Buffy to be everything for her. Buffy's purpose is to entertain Dawn. Got news for Dawn, not only is Buffy a Slayer, but she is a human being.

We get an interesting demon fighting scene. Buffy thinks it has run off. "Afraid to face a true warrior?" Her ego (being true warrior) gets in the way of her seeing what happened. This is going to invade her personal space, her home. Her reliance on her ego will cause her to unknowingly bring this demon into her home where it causes some damage, even to Xander.

Nit Dawn expects the Scoobies to drop what they are doing and go to the Mall with her. Dawn isn't seeing the Scoobies as people who have things to do. They are there to keep her company. I am talking about this because Dawn is representative of Buffy's ego. Buffy does tend to see others in relation to her, rather than as people with their own needs. When Buffy doesn't need them, as far as she is concerned, they go into a closet.

We gets nit Dawn being a clepto. It is her way to possess something. People won't be around, so she tries to replace that with things. She even steals Buffy a birthday present so that Buffy will like her. Buffy is rather clueless. My kid gives me an expensive present, first thing I do is look at my husband to see if he had anything to do with it. Next "Honey, this is gorgeous, how did you afford it?"

Then Hallie starts working Dawn. Vengeance (excuse me Justice) demons just nurture what is there. However, they are not the proper way to address something. If you want to address Dawn's pain, you get her to talk to Buffy or Buffy to talk to her. That is why I am not a big fan of "Justice." It typically does mask vengeance and is just a way to give false order to our world.

Sophie is a fun comical character for a pretty intense episode. Buffy isn't really connecting at work. She just wants to think she is.

To continue the theme of people only existing in relation to you, we have Anya: "Just an attractive single man, with whom we hope you find much in common. (Buffy looking annoyed) And if you happen to form-a romantic relationship leading to babies-and many double dates with us so we have someone else to talk to, yay!" She sets up Buffy so Anya has someone else to talk to and go on double dates with.

More awkward relationships from Tara/Willow and Spike/Buffy. Difference though. Willow and Tara are actually interested in each other. They see the other as individuals and not just an extension of themselves.

Spike brings in an outsider. Spike is an idiot. He wanted an ally so he didn't feel left out by the Scooby bonding. He also didn't want Buffy to throw him out. She would be less likely if he brought someone.

The Home is symbolic of Buffy's psyche, all of it. Dawn, the ego, keeps everything else imprisoned in it by her rigid ideas of what should be. We have the many faces of Buffy under one roof in this episode, including Slayer. Spike brings in a decent demon and Anya brings in a normal guy. Buffy brought in the demon she has to fight and harms her home. He seriously wounds the normal guy and Xander gets a flesh wound. That is Buffy. I love symbolism.

Tara and Willow are relating as individuals and finding out how the other is doing. Spike wants to sneak away and do what Spike does. Buffy isn't an individual, she is a shag partner. He teases her about the normal guy and their possible relationship.

Then we get to the gifts. Willow's gift is for Buffy the individual. She doesn't need someone if she has a back massager. Dawn's has already been discussed. Then we get Xander's amazing gift. Xander is the heart and the heart finds a way to bring some beauty to the practical world of the Slayer. Best of all it is hand (read from the heart) made.

Buffy ignores Dawn when Xander's gift comes out. This makes Dawn feel rotten, but it shows the relationship of ego and heart in Buffy. The heart is what brought her joy that evening. It is the heart that will be most appreciated. It was the heart that will win out in the end (think back to a certain message in S7)

It is at this point, after gifts have been exchanged that Sophie comes in. This shows what work gives to Buffy and how important (or rather unimportant) it is. Work also have a lot of problems associated with it, that Buffy just rolls with. "No problem"

At this point, ego doesn't like all the other parts of Buffy's psyche being more important, so Dawn makes her wish.

I loved when Tara catches Spike and Buffy. I find it incredibly amusing that the character that represents work is Sophie. Sophia, wisdom, is rather symbolic historically. In this episode, Sophia is played by Tara. Tara is the higher consciousness. She is the one that told Buffy she didn't come back wrong. She has to die because Buffy and Willow need to connect with the actual higher consciousness, not through the character of Tara.

No gift from Spike or Tara. The Shadow doesn't add to Buffy, it doesn't give her anything. Neither does Dawn really. Her gift is unusable and tainted. The Higher conscious is the gift. It doesn't need to give one.

More interaction between the characters. It just shows how the components of Buffy's psyche relate. If you watch the show from this perspective, it might be more interesting.

The demon in the wall was great. It was not only in the house, but literally in the house. It seriously wounded the normal guy, just like the Slayer makes it so Buffy cannot have a normal life. It hurt Xander, but not seriously, just like the Slayer hurts Buffy's heart, but not seriously.

I could do more, but the idea is there.

For the Dark Night, the ego has asserted itself this time, but we do get to see how the other components of Buffy's personality are feelings, including her higher consciousness. Hallie has to lift the curse at the end, thus showing that ego will give way eventually, thus freeing Buffy's psyche.

It was about trying to hold onto others. That is what ego does, allows us to relate to others. It also makes it hard to see people as individuals. We define ourselves and others by relationships. Look at some people's net names.

Sorry if that was a bit confusing. I was analysing on several different levels at once.

There is another level, Dawn wants people to spend time with her because it gives her self worth. "Cause being stuck in here with me, that would really suck, right?" Ego wants people to exist in relation to it, or else it isn't there. If I am not a mom, what am I? Ego is fighting for its own preservation.

If I am not a mom, then how do I act? My identity as a mom tells me how to act. That is our fear -- if I am not X, how do I act? If I don't se myself as loving, I won't be loving.

Have to say after going through the Dark Night that such thoughts are unfounded. When you get to the other side you are more loving than you ever could be with ego in the way. I am a better mom, now that being a mom doesn't dictate my actions. That is pretty hard to trust.
[> [> Got to *vehemently* disagree with your pov on Dawn. -- HonorH (Dawn Defender), 22:56:17 03/06/03 Thu

Yes, many teens want to rebel because they see their parents as being too restrictive. Yes, teens do need to make friends. With Dawn, though, that's not the problem. She's got friends, as we've seen. But parents and rules? Dawn has no real constraints on her life, because the adults in her life, her role models, aren't there for her, with the exception of Tara. Dawn lost her mother. She lost Buffy. She lost Giles. Tara moved out. Spike, her old friend and protector, has hardly been there for Dawn since Buffy got back. She's stuck with a sister whose emotional level is somewhere south of "zombie" and a witch who nearly got her killed. This could conceivably make any teen insecure. All she wants is someone to reassure her that she's loved, that she matters. She wants to spend time with them, but they're all so wrapped up in their own problems that the fifteen-year-old in need of role models is left to her own devices.

So she resorts to getting negative attention by stealing and making it *so* very obvious to Buffy that's what she did. Also, her rejections of Buffy come because she wants Buffy to pursue her. None of this is clear to Dawn, of course, because she's still very young--all she knows is that she hurts, and she doesn't have anyone older and wiser to help her through it.

Fifteen is a terrible age--you're a mass of hormones, every problem feels like the end of the world, you want to be an adult and a child at the same time--and there was no one to help Dawn through it. That's where her bratty S6 behavior comes from. And that's why she's so much better now: because Buffy has reassured her that she's loved and that her well-being matters to Buffy. Dawn's more secure now, secure enough to let Buffy go do the things she needs to.
[> [> [> Disagreement is great -- lunasea, 06:31:53 03/07/03 Fri

Thank you for sharing that.

And that's why she's so much better now: because Buffy has reassured her that she's loved and that her well-being matters to Buffy.

This is why I (and probably others) have little toleranace for Dawn Season 6. Buffy DIED for Dawn at the end of Season 5. It doesn't get any bigger than that. Once someone dies for you, she shouldn't have to reassure you that you are loved and that your well-being matters to them. Buffy DIED for her, for Christ's sake.

We aren't talking normal teen issues with a normal teen. The writers completely ignored this amazing thing that Buffy did for Dawn and tried to make her into a normal teen with normal teen issues.

I liked her better S5 when they were showing that she was raised with rules to this abnormal life that she had. I like she S7 when they are showing her adapting to that abnormal life. S6 was just "nobody love me." If that was the case, the would have let her bleed on that platform.

Talk about needy. What more proof does she need?
[> [> [> [> Dying for Love (Spoilers for Him - BtVS S7) -- Rahael, 06:44:10 03/07/03 Fri

Actually, I think Dawn learned that lesson really well - that was one of the things that struck me when I watched "Him" recently - the only thing Dawn felt she could offer was to die for someone.

However, such a lesson is paradoxical. I can empathise with the pain that Dawn felt after Buffy died. Knowledge that she had been given this demonstration of Buffy's love, but still, the resentment, the grief, the pain that bereavement brings with it.

The hell in heaven's despite that love can sometimes build, unintentionally.

Moreover, you could also see Dawn's pain and grief, and stark expression of abandoment by Buffy as an expression of one part of Buffy herself, which has been denied a voice, and neglected. Part of Buffy in Season 6 is still the child whose mother has died. Still wanting to be looked after, and yet, she has to give up so much. She doesn't speak about it, how can she? Giles has departed too. I always saw Dawn as articulating what Buffy wouldn't allow herself to, and indeed, articulating it all the more because of the huge raw, obvious wound that Buffy was clearly and determinedly ignoring.
[> [> [> [> [> All Characters are Buffy -- lunasea, 07:15:11 03/07/03 Fri

Moreover, you could also see Dawn's pain and grief, and stark expression of abandoment by Buffy as an expression of one part of Buffy herself, which has been denied a voice, and neglected. Part of Buffy in Season 6 is still the child whose mother has died. Still wanting to be looked after, and yet, she has to give up so much. She doesn't speak about it, how can she? Giles has departed too. I always saw Dawn as articulating what Buffy wouldn't allow herself to, and indeed, articulating it all the more because of the huge raw, obvious wound that Buffy was clearly and determinedly ignoring.

Agreed. All characters are reflections of something about Buffy. That is how the show is written). Spike does an exceptionally good job with this. Willow was great because she also showed things that Buffy couldn't. Buffy is the hero and as such can't do certain things. The writers explore those with other characters, like Dawn, Spike and Willow.
[> [> [> [> And again with the disagreeing. -- HonorH, 07:53:26 03/07/03 Fri

Yes, Buffy died for Dawn. That adds a heap of guilt to everything else. Does Buffy blame her for that? Does Buffy blame her for not being able to just die again and go back to Heaven? Buffy gives her no clue as to what she's feeling. Hence Dawn's constant insecurity about whether Buffy wants to be with her. Does she resent me? Am I a burden?

It's a problem, too, saying "Buffy died for her--isn't that enough?" Is it? Tell me, can you do one huge thing for someone you love, then practically ignore them the rest of the time, and expect it to be enough? Can you, when they come seeking your attention, point at that thing and say, "I made this huge sacrifice for you; that should be enough. Leave me alone."? People need reassurance that your feelings haven't changed and that you still love them that much.

That's why the end matters so much: Buffy shows that she's willing to *live* for Dawn, which is what's important in S6.

When I've got time, I'll dig up my old analysis of S6 Dawn's character development. It explains exactly what I mean.
[> [> [> [> [> Fun Part of Dawn -- lunasea, 08:29:19 03/07/03 Fri

She actually wasn't that fleshed out, so you can see anything that you want to. The writers admit that they dropped the ball with her, one of their biggest mistakes S6, so you can see a normal teen and I can see an ungrateful brat.

An analysis of S6 Dawn's character development will be interesting, seeing as there isn't that much.
[> [> [> [> [> [> And here it is: Re-Repost of Dawn's S6 Character Development -- HonorH, 08:39:46 03/07/03 Fri

In the first ep, she seems okay on the outside. She draws comfort and security from Willow and Tara's presence and Spike's protection and friendship. Still, sometimes at night, she crawls into bed with the BuffyBot. Things are frightening in her world. She's lost so much, and she's afraid to lose more.

Then Buffy returns. On the outside, it's a dream come true. Dawn is very mature at this point, dealing with traumatized Buffy, and even smacking down the Scoobies when they get overwhelming. Only at one point does this maturity crack: when reversing the spell that brought Buffy back is mentioned. Then she instantly reverts to a frightened 15-year-old. But the crisis is averted and things seem fine--but they're not.

Financial disaster looms, something Dawn was heretofore unaware of. Spike all but disappears from Dawn's life. Buffy's back, but she's not really *back*. Tara and Willow are quarreling. Dawn gets caught up in teenage prankstering that ends disastrously.

Then the other shoe drops: Buffy was in heaven. She didn't want to be brought back. She doesn't even want to be alive. Perhaps the only thing keeping her from committing suicide is the fact that Dawn needs taken care of. It's not unreasonable to assume that Dawn, at this point, feels Buffy must resent her.

After this, we get the exodus of Tara and Giles, the two most secure adults in Dawn's life. Buffy sinks further into depression and starts spending more and more time away. Willow also withdraws, and then nearly gets Dawn killed. This is when we start to see real resentment on Dawn's part. She's 15, and all the adults in her life are imploding. She's got no one to help her out with growing up. At this point, Dawn starts lashing out at Buffy, who, after all, obviously resents her as well.

Buffy's birthday takes place right after Buffy's abortive attempt to turn herself in. Dawn's desperate enough by now to try an obvious ploy for attention: getting caught stealing. What with one thing and another, the problems get exposed, and Buffy and Dawn reconcile. They're almost back to their old loving selves for "As You Were" and "Hell's Bells."

It's not coincidental that Dawn's insecurity makes an encore appearance after Xander and Anya's spectacular breakup. Another seemingly-steady couple has gone blooey, and now Buffy's acting crazy. In Buffy's asylum world, where her parents are alive and together, Dawn doesn't exist. Learning this cuts Dawn deep. She'd hoped things were getting better, but apparently somewhere in Buffy's mind, Dawn's not a part of her world. Hence the anger.

It's at this point that all Dawn's worst fears come true: her protector turns into her attacker, insisting Dawn isn't real, just like she feared all along. But then Buffy makes the decision that makes all the difference: faced with two worlds, one of which is comfortable and secure and the other of which is frightening and hard, but includes Dawn and her friends, Buffy chooses this world. She chooses to stay with Dawn. Thus, the rebuilding relationship we see in "Entropy."

In "Entropy," Buffy and Dawn and Willow and Tara are paralleled. Buffy's trying hard to win Dawn's trust and love back, which is exactly what Willow is doing with Tara. The only thing is, both Dawn and Tara are all too eager to be caught. Just as Tara re-enters Willow's territory--the Summers house--at the end, Dawn wants to enter Buffy's world: patrolling. Buffy's still caught in the trap of believing she needs to--and can--protect Dawn from the world, however.

SR puts paid to that. Buffy is attacked twice in her own home, and Tara is killed. Willow, a friend, turns out to be a tougher opponent than Buffy's faced all year. "People I love are dying, and you can't protect me," Dawn tells Buffy in "Grave." Buffy doesn't want to believe this, but she's got no choice.

The final straw comes when Buffy starts crying with relief that the world isn't ending, and Dawn mistakes it for crying with disappointment. Buffy finally realizes just what a toll her depression has taken on Dawn, and she resolves to change that. She resolves to show Dawn not only the world, but that she herself is no longer afraid of life. As they climb out of the earth together, the reconciliation is complete. Dawn's secure in her sister's love, and she's now ready to journey on toward womanhood with Buffy's guidance.
[> [> [> [> [> [> And another thing! Or three! -- HonorH (who's *really* on a roll now), 13:18:23 03/07/03 Fri

Gratitude isn't Dawn's problem in S6. Insecurity is. Let's examine, for a moment, the issues surrounding Buffy's death:

1. Dawn was created out of a Key that appears to be solely destructive and given false memories. Thus, her entire life is a facade.

2. Buffy had to put her whole life on hold for Dawn. She quit school and dedicated herself to taking care of Dawn, becoming essentially a single mother at 20.

3. Buffy died for Dawn. Buffy, the Slayer, who was real and loved and needed by the world.

So, Dawn is left with a few possible thoughts:

1. Buffy wasn't supposed to die. I was. Buffy saved. I destroyed. I'm unworthy of her sacrifice.

2. The people who loved Buffy must resent me, since I was the cause for Buffy's death.

3. How could Buffy leave me? Was it easier, for her, to die? Did she want to leave me? Was I that much of a burden to her?

Now, over the summer, Dawn appears to have come to terms with her grief. Then Buffy reappears and seems to be worse off than she was before her death. So the old questions get dredged up again, and Dawn is left wondering if Buffy resents her now--does she blame Dawn for her ordeal?

What Dawn's looking for is not extraordinary gestures, like taking a flying leap off a tower for her, but ordinary ones--making sure Dawn's eating and going to school, talking to her, touching her, and so on. She wants, in other words, to feel like she's a part of Buffy's life, and a welcome one. Those things are noticeably absent in S6. Buffy doesn't talk to Dawn much. She also doesn't touch her. In S5, Buffy was always sitting by Dawn, touching her arm, stroking her hair, or hugging her. Now, the truth is probably that Buffy felt so mangled by her resurrection that she didn't want to touch anyone, and then so dirtied by her affair with Spike that Dawn, who represents purity to her, would be sullied by Buffy's touch. However, Dawn only sees someone who keeps her at a distance. She can't understand Buffy's deeper issues since Buffy won't share them. So she wonders if maybe Buffy's stopped loving her.

You also said earlier that Dawn should be happy not to have adult supervision. By that theory, teens who are ignored by their parents should be the happiest. Wrong! As someone who works with teens, I can tell you that those teens are the unhappiest, angriest kids you'll ever meet. Teens want to know someone's watching them and taking care of them, even if they won't admit it.

Which brings us back to Dawn. Buffy won't take responsibility for her (note the passing-off of discipline on Giles in ATW). Willow loses her authority when she goes on her bender. Tara moves out. Xander and Anya are caught up in their wedding plans. Giles is gone. Dawn's been cut adrift, and she reacts by becoming increasingly angry and insecure--just like any teen would. Underlying it all is the idea that Buffy may give up and die again, and then who will take care of Dawn? Willow the Wicca-holic? Dawn's so-called "father" she's never even met, technically? Is Dawn's love for Buffy enough to keep her in the world, or will she lose Buffy all over again?

As someone who works with teens, I can tell you that it's easier to label them as brats. It's much harder to sit down and listen to them and try to understand why they act the way they do. Maybe that's why I'm such a big Dawn defender--because I can see where she's coming from and why she acts the way she does.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And another thing! Or three! -- Miss Edith, 13:27:59 03/07/03 Fri

I can understand people feeling the need to defend Dawn as IMO her behaviour in season 6 was understandable. My problem was simply that ME in making Dawn a realistic teen, didn't make her likeable for me. I believe Marit acknowledged that one of her season 6 regrets was writing Dawn a little too young.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ooops that should have said Marti -- Miss Edith, 13:30:50 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Teens are not likable people. -- HonorH, 13:50:51 03/07/03 Fri

You think I like 'em? Not in general. No, I really don't. They're unreliable. Inconsistent. Obnoxious. Immature. Weird! What's to like?

No, I don't like them, but I do try to love them. I'm in awe of them, in a way, because they're so very much in process, and it's a hard, hard place to be. They struggle, they make mistakes, and somehow, the majority of them come out on the other end as functioning adults. I admire that.

Which is why I defend S6 Dawn. She *is* a realistic teen, warts and all (though not acne--her skin is gorgeous). Perhaps she was written a little young, but perhaps again that wasn't such a mistake. Dawn never had a childhood, and being in such an insecure place as she was last season, it makes sense that she'd regress a bit and get clingy. So I don't mind.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Teens are not likable people. -- Miss Edith, 14:09:07 03/07/03 Fri

I just feel a line needs to be drawn between having realism on tv, and having likeable characters that people want to invite into their homes every week. Season 6 Dawn's characterisation did not succeed in endearing her to me, and I was one of the people who didn't have a problem with Dawn once in season 5.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I liked some -- lunasea, 14:43:20 03/07/03 Fri

Like Willow and Xander and Buffy and Oz. We saw them as teens and they were incredibly likeable.

Not Cordy or Harmony, though. We weren't supposed to like them.

Talk about neglect. Willow's mom didn't even know that she got her hair cut. Willow wasn't a pain.

Xander's family was beyond dysfunctional. He wasn't a pain.

Buffy's mom was pretty absentee. Again, not a pain.

Dawn is still supposed to be Joyce's kid. The mother that raised Buffy raised Dawn. Shouldn't Dawn have benefited from this somewhat? Dawn didn't act like Joyce's child S5. Teens that are that big a pain tend to have a long history of neglect, not just a few weeks/months. Dawn was a pain from the beginning of S6.

Dawn may have been a "normal" teen, but she had no reason to be.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Still not convincing me. -- HonorH, 15:15:23 03/07/03 Fri

So she was raised by Joyce. Good. But Dawn didn't have Joyce after her death. A mother's death is a big, big thing in a child's life, especially if she's left with her big sister, who gets killed, then comes back. To expect that just because Dawn was raised by Joyce, she'd be perfectly okay no matter what happened is downright unrealistic--especially considering all the trauma Dawn went through following Joyce's death. That doesn't just disappear. To expect Dawn to be perfectly mature and perfectly behaved and without Issues following S5 is to ask too much of her.

Also, I don't see that Dawn expected Buffy's life to revolve around her. She also wasn't a pain right from the beginning. Look at my character sketch for her--her real attitude didn't start until after "Wrecked". She was okay through "Bargaining" and "After Life", especially. I hardly see where she was a "pain" in those eps. Sure, she was lonely and insecure, and she was stealing (which is not entirely abnormal behavior for a traumatized teenager), but she never rejected Buffy until "Gone". All she wanted was reassurance Buffy still cared, and I believe canon supports me on that. After OAFA, Dawn's misbehavior largely clears up, and after NA, it's gone entirely.

As for friends, remember: we're not in Dawn's pov. We're not shown her school life or social life. For all we know, she could've been one popular kid at school. Cordelia was, but did that make her easier to live with? We're shown Dawn *as she relates to Buffy*, and that relationship was wounded. Therefore, we can't blame her for not making friends, since we don't know how many she actually had.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would another Dawn Defender step in? -- HonorH, 15:17:44 03/07/03 Fri

I'm leaving for the weekend shortly, and I don't want Dawn to be without an apologist. Anybody? Thank you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dear Secretary of Dawn Defense: -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:26:51 03/07/03 Fri

I could step in, if ya want.

Of course, I might face the charge of being too sentimental towards Dawn since I'm also a teengaer. Ah well, so mote it be.

I haven't added anything to this thread so far because you've been doing a pretty good job at it.

- from the Chairman of Dawnian Affairs
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll have a go, too -- pr10n, 16:45:43 03/07/03 Fri

I have a teenager (kheldar_assassin, 14), so maybe that's a little perspective along with Finn's "boundless energy." All teens have that, right? :)

Also, my defense would start right here: Buffy died for Dawn.

I would restate that as, "Buffy died in Dawn's place, but Buffy died to close the portal because she's the Slayer."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not my Buffy -- lunasea, 17:33:46 03/07/03 Fri

Buffy died to close the portal because she's the Slayer.

Not the Buffy I watch. She died because she loves her sister. Her ability to love lead to her gift, death. I didn't see anything about being Slayer in that.

It was one of the few actions she got to do that wasn't about being Slayer. It was about how much she loved Dawn. She killed Angel because she was the Slayer. As Slayer, she should have killed Dawn.

But I am tired of talking about Dawn. She is a minor character and this thread was about Buffy. Geeze, saying anything negative about Dawn get more responses than saying it about Spike.

So what if Dawn is a normal teen? She is still whiney (her voice was seriously grating in Bargaining) and a pain. I don't care if there is a reason. She was still a selfish pain. I wasn't dealing with Dawn's perspective or why she acted like she did. I was dealing with Buffy.

Dawn deserves her own thread. As do Willow (which I really do want to do later), Xander, Spike (someone else will have to do that one), Anya, Tara and Giles. A season is pretty complicated. It helps to give each character's perspective. I was giving Buffy's, something not everyone got, even though she got the most screen time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not one of those things was ever shown though -- lunasea, 14:26:52 03/07/03 Fri

You are giving Dawn motivation that the writers never wrote. The character is completely open to interpretation.

Dawn is supposed to be Buffy. Joyce was a single parent and was pretty absentee. Did Buffy ever resent this? Nope. She had Giles, Angel and the Scoobies.

My position comes from my mother being pretty absent and when she was there she was emotionally abusive. What got me through was the friends I made on the debate team and a teacher I made friends with back in junior high.

We saw one friend of Dawn's that year, Janice, the one that hooked up her up the vampire. Dawn did not appear to have much of a social life. That wasn't Buffy's fault. If Dawn did have friends, maybe things would have been much different. It isn't fair for teens to expect their parents' lives to revolve around them. Part of growing up is realizing this.

You see what you want in Dawn and spackle in your experiences to fill in what the writers never gave us and I will fill it in with my own experiences.

That is the beauty with characters that aren't fully fleshed out. We can see whatever we want. You say you see where Dawn is coming from. You see where you want Dawn to come from. The show didn't give us enough to say where that is. The writers do regret that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I disagree--I think what HonorH is saying is exactly what the writers meant us to see about Dawn. -- Dyna, 15:53:48 03/07/03 Fri

Clearly, all of us understand what others are feeling by applying our own experiences and observations about human nature to what's before us. If this is what you mean by "spackling in your experiences," I don't quite see how this is wrong, as you seem to be saying it is. It's simply part and parcel of how fictional characters work. We see a partial reality, a tiny slice or heap of clues and hints, and from it we make leaps, pay attention to our instincts and emotional responses, and make meaning from it. What other method is there?

Regarding HonorH's specific points about Dawn, her interpretation rings perfectly true to me, and in fact I believe she's understood well what the writers were trying to do. Dawn was still a child in S6, and one who was stuck at a point of difficult transition, without benefit of much adult guidance. She seemed deeply insecure and conflicted to me, guilty about her role in Buffy's death and subsequent ordeal, but also needy and upset at being neglected. Basically, what HonorH said. All very natural too, imo.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dawn was still a pain -- lunasea, 17:40:52 03/07/03 Fri

I don't quite see how this is wrong, as you seem to be saying it is.

Because we all have different experiences. That is why it is the writers job to give us the motivation, so we don't do this. If they want us to see something, they need to