March 2001 posts

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The loss of Joyce is a tragedy -- not only for Buffy but for many of her friends as well.

And it is not just because they are greiving for a friend whose parent died. It is not just because they are greiving for somebody they know. They are also greiving for a person who was a mother figure in their own lives.

Buffy is the only one out of the Scoobies (those who remain on the show) who could have been said to have something approaching a ""normal"" home life. Yes her parents were divorced but she lived happily with an understanding and concerned mother and a bratty kid sister. Life was good.

Look at the homelives of the other Scoobies -- Xander's parents both appear to be borderline abusive alcoholics. He seems to fear them and took the first available opportunity to move out and live a life away from them.

Willow's father appears to be absent and her mother is a workaholic who never paid much attention to what her daughter did.

Tara well her all know her story painfully well. Her mother who was probably convinced of her own inherent evil died relatively recently. Her father and brother thought she was a demon who required suppression.

Anya's parents died more than a millenia previously. Her idea of what it is like to have a parent is probably on par with the rest of her ideas of what it is like to be human -- she doesn't know. She has no experience in that arena. And just as she was learning about humanity and love from Xander she may have been learning what the mother - child relationship was like from Joyce.

Indeed all of the Scoobies in one way or another must have looked up to Joyce as the mother figure in their lives. Kids and teens whose own mother was absent or negligent may tend to see the mother of a beloved friend as a somebody who they would like to have as their mother. An ideal. This is how the Scoobies saw Joyce -- as their mother figure. And Joyce in return loved each of them and treated them no differently than her own children.

Now that is gone. The familial harmony has been disrupted. The Scoobies have been set to drift without their tether to the ""real"" and ""normal"" world.

Lets hope that they can hold onto themselves throughout this ordeal.

- maura

Just as Joyce was a mother figure for all the SG Giles is the father figure. As traumatic as Joyce's passing was they still have him - and each other.
As I am English i have not see all the esp of Season 4 and have only seen up to Shroud Of Rahmon and Shadow. Also another thing that bugs about Riley regarding his statement in WTWA is the fact that Anya got stabbed through the hand and some of the party goers got glass in their faces.
This week I must admit that the choices before me were a little more difficult than usual. I had one film in
mind a most excellent one and it was about fate destiny heartbreak all that good stuff. (Well good in
the literary sense anyway! ;) A lot of what went on in this weeks Buffy /Angel episodes made me think a
lot about fate and destiny and should you try to change what seems to have been foreordained or should
you accept that you played your part in the total scheme of things and that all has meaning you just canít
always see it.

But it didnít *quite* fit. So I got out my copy of another film I had considered one about the desires of
angels and the humans that they watch over. Very good also a number of very pertinent BtVS/A:tS
references mucho philosophicalo but still not there either. (~sigh~) Another time perhaps in fact
another time most definitely.

So I trudge back upstairs riffle through my library wait for the muse to strike and bless her heart she
comes through! Finally I came across what I think is a film that many of you may have seen before but
also possibly not and it ties in very neatly with the Buffyverse this week. If you have seen it before Iím
guessing that it may have been a long long time ago and perhaps some of its wonder has faded from
memory. If so itís time to dust off those neurons and get reaquainted!

I clearly recall when I saw it first-- I was working as a short order cook and cleanup person (Xander much
anyone?) at our little townsí local college and one of the perks you got by being a staff member was
access to college activities at the special discounted rates normally made available to students and faculty.

One of the regular weekly events was a Saturday/Sunday night film series in one of the larger lecture halls.
(This was actually *film* by the way video didnít exist in 1971!) Some flicks were classics some were
second-runs of recent films. If you were a member of the public it was $3.00. If you were a student or
staff it was only $1.25! What a deal and what a wonderful array of films-- whoever chose them certainly
did have good taste. I was there at least every other week I think. And one week they played this one
which over two decades later made its way into my video library when The Criterion Collection released a
beautifully remastered laserdisc of *The Seventh Seal* directed by Ingmar Bergman.

I am going to quote from the discís rear jacket text by Peter Cowie because frankly I canít state it any
better or more succinctly:

ì*The Seventh Seal* takes its title from the Book of Revelations and in 1956 the threat of Apocalypse
seemed as palpable as it must have been in medieval Sweden. Yet Bergman refuses to succumb to the
pessimism that pervades all those about him; he identifies now with the zealous knight now with his
cynical squire. His characters manage to overcome the *fear* of death rather than the fact of death and if
as the knight discovers one can achieve even a single gesture of goodwill then the long struggle of life will
be justified.î

So get out your chessboard look Death in the eye make your best moves and enjoy (or brood about) this
remarkable film that inspired a whole generation of both moviegoers and moviemakers alike.

E Pluribus Cinema Unum

Yay. Finally a CMotW I've actually seen! What I love about this film is the completely unironic irony of its exploration of fear (life) and death.

Ohhh. And the sombre visual symbolism. You've got to love this film.

"...'jumbo shrimp' and 'put the seat back forward'? (George Carlin).

Glad for the yay! -- Have you gotten to see any of the other flicks I've suggested so far? Just curious...

Also there is a hilarious parody of *The Seventh Seal* called ""Die Duve"" (The Dove). I have it on an old Beta tape somewhere everybody speaks in a mock-Swedish that would make the Muppets' Swedish Chef proud and the Knight plays a game of badminton with Death. There is also a cow named 'mooska'. What more can I say?"
Yep. Just like jumbo shrimp;) I thought you'd like that turn of phrase.

As for whether I've picked up any of your previous suggestions... I nearly picked up LA Story earlier this week.

OT question: Have you ever seen the French film Ridicule? I don't know why I just thought of it now but it's a film I think you'd like.

How can Spike have a conscience without a soul..without a functioning brain?
Wouldn't his personality and actions be soley the result of the demon soul that posesses him?
Could it be possible for a vampire under certain conditions(chip) to conquer their demon soul and regain their human soul..and if not is it the demon soul that is reasoning is chosing to do good over bad experiencing feelings of love and obsession in Spike for Buffy?
If so where do the characteristics of William come from that Spike has shown on occasion? Could his soul still be in there trapped by the demon?

"Well I know that my take on Spike and vampires in general is not one that most people adhere to because I see that vamp behaviour as more primal/animalistic than evil. I am always reminded of ""Lord of the Flies"" ( the book not the movie) where when these youth and children are removed from the rules/ethics of family teachings and society in general they gradually lose their ""humanity"" and become very primal and yes in the end they enjoy the kill seemingly void of conscience. Now whether conscience equates soul is another matter. I always thought of it as the ability to chose right from wrong. I am not convinced that vamps have that ability.

My son actually said an interesting thing to me the other day. He kind of startled me by stating matter of factly that if his dad or myself died he would not be able to cry as much as we could or feel for others if the situation were reversed because he wasn't ""ready"" yet. Upon further questioning he said that by ready he meant that the ""hormonal thing"" hadn't happened yet and that something had to happen in his brain in order for him to be able to have that kind of compassion and deep feeling. He had just had sex ed. that day at school so I think that he was talking about puberty and the resulting emotional changes to the person. Ten year old boys do have a round about way of expressing themselves sometimes. Of course after that touching moment with my child what did I think about? Spike's chip! What kind of a parent does that make me?

Anywho what that chip might be releasing in Spike's brain who knows? He has always been different even prechip I thought him a facinating character. I have often wondered about William and what happened to his soul especially as someone already mentioned heaven is not really referred to in the Buffyverse. We don't really know if William's soul is in heaven or suppressed. It may even be in limbo waiting to be released either by Spike's staking or the demon leaving his body.

Whoops sorry to have gone on so long."

Was it me....or did Dawn's art teacher look ALOT like Joyce? Was that done apurpose do you think?

Or am I crazy?
I thought she looked an aweful lot like Joyce as well. Funny no one commented on that yet..I completely forgot about the resemblance until you mentioned it .
I had to watch it a second time just to verify tha it wasn't Joyce's ghost. But since most of the students heard her instructions I ruled that out. I thought I was the only one who had mistaken her.
I totally thought that too! In fact when I went back to watch it again I tried to make sure it wasn't her or a ghost of her or whatever. Why do you suppose they look alike. On purpose or coincidence? It was eery.
Does anyone have access to the shooting script to see what it says about the art teacher in that scene?

I'm curious to know why that occurred - and relieved to know I'm not reading too much into it - thanks guys!
"I can't remember if it was here but back when FFL aired there was a lot of message board debating on whether or not Angelus had ever killed a slayer. The evidence is kind is of spotty: he tells Spike to avoid Slayers and he doesn't seem enthused about fights he wasn't certain to win but that ""now you're one of us"" could be taken to mean a select group of Slayer-killers.

Anyway assuming he did how do you think he did it? IMO it wouldn't be an upfront ""fists and fangs"" fight because that's just not in Angelus' personality.

What I keep coming back to is the Angel/Spike meeting in School Hard when Angel tells Spike he's been giving Buffy the ""I'm all tortured"" routine so she leaves him alone to feed. Spike not only is not surprised that Angel's deceiving her rather than battling her but he comments that ""the Anne Rice routine's still working.""

I think that if Angelus went after a Slayer he did it with his usual mind games. He got her to trust him and then toyed with her for a long time until she was completely broken before offing her. When did the romanticization of vampires begin? Before the soul-having thing? Wouldn't it be a great flashback episode to see a Slayer reading about ""immortal children of darkness"" tortured by their thirsts yada-yada- yada and actually falling for Angelus' impersonation thereof?

I think that if Angelus went after a Slayer he did it with his usual mind games. He got her to trust him and then toyed with her for a long time until she was completely broken before offing her.

That is possible. But the slayer would know that he is a vampire. Slayers are supposed to sense vampires.

A young one might not have developed that. And Angel does have a thing for young slayers.

If he did go after a slayer I believe first he would go after all that is close to a slayer. Would kill her watcher before her.

I don't know if most slayers would trust a vampire though. And most slayers are solidary figures so there wouldn't be many close to her that he could go after.

It did seem like Angulus had a healthy respect for and a desire to stay away from slayers when he told Spike about them. That did seem odd.

I tend to be in the did not camp although your evidence for did gives me pause. But you descriptin of how he'd go about it well that's just creepy. *shiver*
"I make it a policy never to respond to trolls and bezors. But I feel the wonderful open mindedness the rest of you demonstrated deserves a response.

I did not use the offending word to be hurtful to any single group of people. And if Joss and Co used the wardrobe change simply as a lazy way to signal that Lindsey had returned to (insert sociological cliche of your choice here ) then shame on them.

However I have confidence that they are much cleverer than that. I had taken the choice of wardrobe for Lindsey to be satirical. It was in the spirit of satire that I made those remarks. But I've been around the net long enough to know that it takes much greater wit than I possess to successfully achieve satire in this medium. So shame on me.

I am sincerly sorry that my carelessness may have caused you good folks any distress. I particularty apologize to Rendyl because I was way too flippant in my reply to her concerned post. You and the rest of my defenders were remarkably supportive even though you clearly were not comfortable with my choice. For that I humbly thank you. OnM I am especially gratified to learn that I am counted among those that you really truly don't dislike.

As for the self appointed PC police please try to ignore them. I assure you that's what I intend to do. Well except for this word from somone who is way smarter and much better at satire than me.

""Well if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us do they?""
George Carlin"
"In life I have found those who so freely proclaim themselves ""open minded"" some the the most closed minded and intolerant people there are.

So quickly to accuse prejudice in others so unwilling and unable to see it within themselves.


Mesh Half-Shirt Replaces ""Wife-Beater"" As Official Undergarment of Domestic Violence"
"Is the ""Wife Beater"" t-shirt bru-ha-ha still going on? Everyone needs to chill out...they called them that where I'm from too (Michigan). I don't know anyone who ever thought that the phrase was complementary to wife beaters."
This has been driving me crazy for years but I've never actually asked anyone: How do you pronounce Joss? Is it short for something?

"Don't know if it's short for anything. But it is pronounced just like it's spelled (rhymes with ""hoss""). It is *not* pronounced ""josh."""
It's a Scandinavian name. There is also a famous British actor named Joss Ackland.
I heard that his name is actually Joe Whedon but he changed it when he started writing into Joss the chinese word for luck. 'Course I may be completely off my rocker:)
Man Lindsey kicked ass in the latest episode! When he went and got those cowboy boots out of the closet I new something incredible would happen and it did. A little bit of me was actually rooting for him a while but ultimatly I was glad Angel beat him. Still this just goes to show how complex and layered a character he is. Unlike Spike whose ultimate motives we can't decide on Lindsey is human and therefore he can change he can grow and he can learn. Its not out of character for him to be merciful because he is human and humans no matter how bad usually still have some good in them.

This is why Lindsey is so great. He is a conflicted villian. He isn't hardwired for evil like the demon bad guys we see in the Buffyverse but rather makes the choice to be. Therefore he can have moments of doubt moments of clarity and can go back and forth between marginally good and hopelessly wicked.

If Joss knows what's good for the show he'll keep Lindsey around for a long time to come
Lindsey is definately a good character to have on the bad side. But he must be a complete moron. He knows what vampires are and how they think. Yet he is upset because Darla doesn't love him?????? Now we know she is playing him but come on guy. She is a vampire!!!!! You have no chance with her unless you let yourself be a snack or let her turn you. Hey that makes me think; Could Lindsey or any of the other lawyers still be lawyers if they became vampires? Hmmmmmm. VMS
"But he must be a complete moron. He knows what vampires are and how they think. Yet he is upset because Darla doesn't love him?????? Now we know she is playing him but come on guy. She is a vampire!!!!!

Well the organ Lindsey is using when considering Darla probably isn't the one protected by his skull... If you know what I mean. That would go a long way in explaining his ""stupidity."" Plus he knew her initially as a human and is probably still expecting her to respond in a human fashion."
Could Lindsey or any of the other lawyers still be lawyers if they became vampires?

No even vampires have some standards.

Roflol Good One Linda VMS
"Until now it seemed the story arc had to do with Angel losing his way and finding it again. But that has played itself out with six episodes left for the season. Lindsey hasn't been in the fore front but his actions have been pivotal. Is it possible we've been diverted from the real redemption story? I think maybe some of the most important lines spoken in Epiphany were spoken by Angel when he was beating the bajeezuz out of him.
""I'm sorry Lindsey. I'm sorry she'll never love you. I'm sorry you'll have to live with that. I'm sorry I didn't try harder when you came to me for help. I'm sorry you made the wrong choice."""
"We know that there is a Hell in the Buffyverse. In fact there are several or more. Angel has been to one of these. Presumably Buffy and Lily/Anne have been to another. And there is even Hell-on-Earth if we choose to believe Holland Manners.

We also know that there is at least one dimension that is a ""good"" place or at least neutral - the dimension where the Oracles resided.

Is there a Heaven in the Buffyverse? We've seen no evidence of one. Is Heaven where the mysterious Powers That Be reside? Or are they outside of the three-level concept of Heaven Earth and Hell?

When Dawn asks Buffy ""Where is she?"" in reference to their mother after her death Buffy has no answer. The automatic answer in the Realverse is ""Heaven."" But there seems to be no such place or dimension in the Buffyverse.

Is this why Angel has trouble believing in his own redemption? Because he sees no end no real reward no better dimension?? Because there is no discernable concept of Heaven? What good is redemption if you must continue to go through Hell?

Did Doyle go to Heaven after his self-sacrifice? Or was he relegated to a demon dimension because he was half demon? Shouldn't his actions speak louder be more important than his biology? Where do Angel Wesley and Cordelia believe his soul/essence/spirit/consciousness went?

Why have we only seen ghostly visitations from the darker side of the Buffyverse? - such as the First Evil's use of Jenny and other ghosts from Angel's past in an attempt to make him commit suicide; James and the teacher in ""I Only Have Eyes For You."" If ghosts can torment then surely they can also help and advise.

Most Realverse religions have a concept of Heaven or a better more-enlightened dimension that can be obtained after death on Earth. However there is no evidence of a similar concept in the Buffyverse. In fact religion is rarely spoken of in the Buffyverse. Is this done deliberately to not showcase a particular religion or world view? Laudable since this allows viewers to project their own world view on the characters and situations in the Buffyverse. Or is this a philosophy that suggests that *this* is all there is? That we make our own Heaven or Hell here on Earth?

Why is it that we have no problem in believing in multiple Hells in the Buffyverse but we don't question the absence of even a single Heaven?? Is this because it is so much easier to believe that the worst can happen rather believing that the best can happen? I realize alot of this has to do with how Joss conceived of the Buffyverse - that the Earth was originally a demon dimension not a Garden as stated in a number of religions. But if there are demon dimensions why are there not angelic (for lack of a better word) dimensions? There must be some sort of Good to balance all that Evil. Or the world and the universe would spin down into Chaos. Good and Evil balance each other - you can't have one without the other. And the Good cannot be just what is here on Earth. That is not enough to balance all the Evil that is resident here and trying to leak through from other dimensions.

Is Heaven in the Buffyverse just assumed? There is all this Evil so there must be Good as well? Then why is it not spoken of? Have the characters seen so much Evil that they can no longer conceive of a dimension of Good Heaven?

Yes I know - lots of questions and no answers. But this has been kind of bugging me since ""The Body"" when Buffy didn't answer Dawn's question. Maybe it's been bugging me since I *assumed* Buffy would say ""Heaven"" and she didn't. Please let me know your thoughts."
"1. Vice appears to be more interesting that Virtue.

2. Since what we know of the ""olden days"" comes from the WC everything they say is suspect to me. If these old demons left for another demon dimension what made them leave? And do they really want to come back?

3. There must be a ""Heaven"" or Valhalla or Happy Hunting Ground because without that concept the struggle to defeat evil to be good wouldn't surivive. Life would be too depressing. Or some cosmic joke.

4. How can there be balance between good and evil if there are so few warriors on the side of good? Or is it that 100000 vampires with their evil are equal to one Slayer.

5. Good and Evil order and chaos ying and yang:
The premise is that they need each other to survive to make the world go around.

6. Maybe none of these concepts exist in the Buffyverse and it's all about being and not being. You're ether; you're solid and the dynamic of the changing is what makes the Buffyverse happen."
I think that at least once we have seen evidence of a heaven-like realm when the white light came for the ghosts in IOHEFY. Also there have been at least three miracles connected to Angel now: his reappearance from hell the snowfall and now his entry to Kate's room. It would definately appear as though there were more going on than just the human realm and the demons. Again it all seems to me like the Buddhist cosmology where there are multiple heavens and hells and a lot of other things in between. Still Joss's world is a bit darker and more ambiguous and I think it has to be because otherwise there would be no room for faith and existential angst and that would make for very poor storytelling.
Ryeui I'd forgotten about these miracles or examples of evidence of a heavenly dimension.

Perhaps the Buffyverse is much like our own in this respect: there are lots of examples of Evil but the examples of Good are fewer and farther between.
>We know that there is a Hell in the Buffyverse. In fact there are several
>or more. Angel has been to one of these. Presumably Buffy and Lily/Anne
>have been to another. And there is even Hell-on-Earth if we choose to
>believe Holland Manners.

I don't think the hells we have seen in the Buffyverse are the real Hell.
I remember that in one episode (I can't remember which one) these hells
were referred to as demon dimensions. I tend to think of these hells as
parallel Universes that happen to be occupied by demons.

I think the Heaven and Hell you are talking about are the afterlifes
where people are sent to be rewarded or purnished for their (mis)deeds.
I can't remember any direct reference to Heaven or Hell in the
Buffyverse. In fact I think the show has deliberately tried to avoid
direct references to religions. Even the PTB could just be a group of
demons that are friendly towards residents in the Buffyverse.

So there could be many hells (demon dimensions) earths (as shown in
the Wish) and heavens (where life for humans is very pleasant) in the
Buffyverse. Having multiple hells shouldn't be too depressing as long
as they are hells and not Hells.

By the way this is my first post. I usually lurk.


I do not believe Buffy knows where her Mom is. It would be good if they had a show where she could work out her concepts on eternity. As you pointed out we have no information on any good places that humans or demons go. Phantom Dennis's mother went somewhere but was it a good place or bad one? I mean she did callously tie him up and brick him into the wall before she died from a heart attack. I have no idea where she went. I do know that she did not seemed very pleased to leave our reality. I think like you that it would be a good thing to explorer. Can someone get a letter to Joss about this? VMS
Does anyone seriously believe that someone in their mid 20s at most without the powers of a Slayer could seriously pose a threat to a Vampire over 200 years old? Riley should off got the crap kicked out of him.
Angel DID beat the crap out of him. Albeit not as much as I would have liked but he threw the guy into several walls and trash bins and was only abated when Riley pulled a shock prod out on him unexpectedly. You saw his limping bloody and beaten condition when he made it back to Buffy's dorm room to point the gun at Angel.
Is me or is Riley just an incredible spaz. I've just see Where The Wild Things Are for the first time. At the end of the show he says I just glad no one got hurt. Does the scar on Xander's face count then or the fact that Xander nearly got drowned either. Do not even get me started on his actions in Season 5. How does someone that insecure and petty end up in a position of authority in a crack miltary operation?
Is it just me or were Willow and Buffy both a pair of bitches towards Faith? After seeing Five By Five and Sanctuary i have to say my sympathies lie firmly with Faith. Didn't Buffy or Willow learn anything from Hus or the Kalderash Gypsies about Vengeance?
" Spike is acting less of the ""Big Bad"" because he expects to gain something for his good behaviour. Angel is acting out of more noble reasons- he is acting out of a humanist philosopy - that it does not matter if he has a destiny to fufill what matters are the little acts of kindness he does. Those are what will ultimately lead to his redemption. "
Just a suggestion: You might consider answering some of the posts in the threads that have already been posted rather than starting so many new threads...
Aquitaine I was thinking the same thing. Plus why are we talking about Riley or Faith? This is Buffyverse history now. VMS
"I get the feeling that the writers of ""Reprise"" and ""Epiphany"" were thinking to of these two quotes:

1. ""L'enfer c'est les autres"" (=Hell is other people) from Sartre's ""Huis clos"" (=No Exit) and

2. ""Why this is hell nor am I out of it"" (Mephistopheles in Marlowe's ""Doctor Faustus"")

Now that's all well and good but doesn't this contradict the idea that Angel was ""sent to hell"" at the end of ""Becoming 2""? And for that matter where is it that Buffy was supposed to have been in ""Anne""??"
It's been stated in BTVS that there are thousands of hells.
Hi Hemiola:

I understand from 'Reprise' that Angel wanted to go to the Home Office to kill all the senior partners. He assumed that 'Home Office' for evil meant hell.

What he discovered in his chat with Holland was that the senior partner wasn't coming from the Home Office he was coming TO the Home Office: Here where humanity plays out the conflicts of good and evil in everyday life and where evil often seems to be winning.

That's what drove him to despair
Spike is still evil he has shown no remorse for anything he did. if the chip was removed he would revert to his old habits. THE CHIP IS NOT A SOUL IT ONLY PREVENTS HIM FROM KILLING. IT DOES NOT GIVE ANY FORM OF CONSCIENCE AT ALL.
" William is not the saint he is made out to be. He was obsessed with Cicely he display no signs of interest in the brutal murders that were being committed by Angelus Darla or Drusilla.

He says "" i prefer not to think of such matters that's what the Police are for."". That clearly shows someone with little or no compassion. I did however feel sorry for him when he was rejected by Cicely but he was not a saint. Neither was Liam but unlike Spike with the chip Angel eventually began to make GENINUE efforts to atone for his sins. "
Long time lurker. First time poster.

I don't think his ignoring the murders made him less compassionate than the other people at that party. They were taking the same gruesome interest in gossiping about it that they took in gossiping about HIM & his bloody awful poetry a few minutes later.

William struck me more as an escapist. A daydreamer. But as to his ethics we saw little. I was inclined to believe him (a good man) but I am also a redemptionista.

BTW I'm pretty sure that term came from the Mighty Big TV Boards where I also lurk but do not post.
You know this makes the opposition the Contras:)
"I see William as a man who doesn't stand up for himself or anyone. He had a very hard time telling this young girl that he had fallen for her. He was a mediocre man as he says himself. If the townspeople found out where the vampires were I doubt William would have gone. Liam on the other hand would say ""allright a fight. lets go boyssssss."" Liam had something that William did not have and that is passion. This is why Angel is the warrior for good. The same passion that made Angelus a terror even among other vampires is the same passion when tweaked in a different direction makes him a foe that makes evil tremble. VMS "
so much as he lacked the confidence to express it. He was after all a Victorian

Otherwise Spike would be a much colder vampire.

I don't see Liam running out with the boys to fight the vampires so much as I see him fighting tooth and nail to save himself - and maybe a select few like his sister- from a vampire attack.

Do people do good because their conscience convinces them that good is the proper choice or do they do good because if they don't their conscience will bother them hurt? The conscience isn't the organ used for reasoning but is the parent figure that keeps telling us ""no no"" and ""you've been a bad girl.""
That's not to imply that a chip and a conscience are the same; one is not integral to the individual and the other is. And as someone else has posted the chip doesn't keep Spike from doing evil just from harming humans himself.
"I thought initially that the Initiative had potential as a story line because it could bring up so many issues for Buffy and the Scoobies in terms of evil-fighting. Just the high-tech Initiative tasers vs. the Gothic stake symbolize a lot about the approach.
In terms of the chip I think it should be noted that while it might be argued that it functions in a similar way to a conscience (i.e. you feel bad when you've done something bad) it provides a very distorted narrow view of ""good"" and ""bad.""
Chipped Spike could kill Whistler or Doyle or maybe even Oz but he couldn't lay a finger on Bethany's child-molesting father even to prevent him from hurting someone else.
"True but keep in mind that the chip isn't his only source for ""moral knowledge "" now. At least so far he has had a strong desire to do things that Buffy would like and not do things that she wouldn't like. I know that's still not a substitute for a soul but it is a closer approximation."
I just meant to point that out as a flaw in the Initiative's 'rehabilitation' program if that in fact is what it is.
Human morality even as just a memory is a totally different influence on Spike I agree.

Isn't redemptionista a great term by the way? I came across it on the BC&S board.
At least so far he has had a strong desire to do things that Buffy would like and not do things that she wouldn't like.

Spike's desire is to do things he _percieves_ the Buffy would like or not like. But he has no real moral compass of his own.

Oh dear does this make me one of the Contra's now?
"Yes you're a Contra we're going to drive you into the jungle and oppress the Buffyverse for years in a Redemptionista junta:)

Actually you're right he is doing things he perceives Buffy would approve of but we don't know the extent to which his understanding of right/wrong is influencing that. He has to at least remember some of what he was expected to do to be ""a good man"" when he was human.

What I would really like to see for Spike's redemption or at least its first step is for him to do a ""right thing"" that Buffy won't like.
Since he's completely alienated the Scoobies any information he learns about how to defeat Glory or the Ben Connection will be discounted so he might be put in a position where he would have to act on his own initiative to protect Dawn or Buffy or the world in general. "
So much debate has followed since we learned more about him in the past two seasons but in many posts i've read many people calling him well William a better man than Angel's human self wil-Liam. I'd like to know why. I admit i tend to get defensive about Angel but I do appreciate Spike very much. Even reduced to passive-aggressive everyday villainy he's still been a favorite of a character for me as much as Anya and Drusilla.
I think many people look at Angelus and think to become that sadistic something must have been wrong with Liam. We get little glimpses in different episodes that suggest the personality of the human does greatly influence the behavior of the vampire.

Spike as a vampire has never achieved the 'world destroying' evil Angelus and Dru strove for. He acts more human (eating food watching tv) and his evil seems to be more about rebellion and being a 'bad boy'. There is a tendency to see him as less evil than Angelus. The implication becomes William must have been a better man than Liam. If we knew more about the demon that inhabits the body when a vampire is created we might be able to tell whether the memories of the human or the instincts of the demon influence the personality more.
"in terms of the vampire's personality though it twists it.
I understand the ""demon"" to be some sort of essence maybe not sentient in and of itself that reanimates a human body.
"...we have so much story yet so little real information on this topic. I can't say whether William was a 'better' man than was Liam - I think it can be dangerous to say that one person has more value than another in fact. However I'm pretty sure that Liam would never have tried to woo a woman with a line like: ""I know I'm a bad poet but I'm a good man"":) The difference lies in the men's definitions of themselves. Liam tried desperately *not* to define himself and revelled in earthly (sinful) pleasures and indulgences while William saw himself as 'walking in worlds the others can't even begin to imagine'.

Also I do not think that William's pacifist's reaction to the bloody murders in town makes him a bad person. He seems to have been a bit of an anarchronism - not of his time. Conversely as a vamp Spike is relatively 'with it'. This just shows how diametrically opposed William's and Spike's attitudes are. The real difference between the human versions of the two men and their vamp counterparts lies in the fact that once vamped William seems to make a choice to recreate himself as virtually the opposite of his original self while Liam becomes more intense focused and obsessed.

I wonder what kind of vampire William would be if he hadn't adopted the accent and the attitude. In FFL it is clear that his Spike persona is still a work in progress. What would Spike be if he wasn't a poseur? Or are all vamps poseurs of some kind?

I have suggested before that Dru and Spike were not a real couple until he killed the Chinese Slayer and/or Angelus got a soul. In either case Spike would definitely have been trying hard to un-live up to his vamp family's expectations. I base this theory on the fact that in FFL Angelus calls Dru and Darla *his* women on the ""now you're one of us"" comment from the same episode and on the fact that in Crush Spike once again says that he and Dru were together for a hundred years - not a hundred and twenty years. Moreover judging from the dynamics between Spike and Angelus in season 2 I don't think that they could have hung around together for so long if they were 'sharing' Dru.
-I wonder what kind of vampire William would be if he hadn't adopted the accent and the attitude. In FFL it is clear that his Spike persona is still a work in progress. What would Spike be if he wasn't a poseur? Or are all vamps poseurs of some kind?-<
And brings up questions about Spike's relationship or lack thereof with Giles.

Giles really went out on a limb last season when he asked Spike to join the good side.


Speaking of Giles makes me think of his dressing down of Spike in IWMTLY. Shudder. Even with two weeks' perspective the Spike arc baffles me. How much humiliation can one vampire stand before he'd be better off dead? He can't bite he can't hurt he can't act normally... Where can he possibly go from here?

My mind=blank. LOL.

"Everything about that scene evoked the 'softer side of Sears' scene from the first episode yet this time we were supposed to cheer on the vicious creatures circling someone hurt and helpless like wounded prey?

All those people babbling about how great it was to see ""The Ripper"" again don't seem to take into account that it doesn't take much courage to push around someone you KNOW can't fight back.
Gee you think that's maybe why ""The Ripper"" wasn't such a pleasant person to begin with?"
I didn't appreciate that myself I didn't get the scene at all. Oh like talking down to Spike is gonna make them all feel better. Like Buffy would have cared less?? Uhhhhhhh...Anyway I thought it was cruel and were all suprised he's gonna make a Buffybot. And we were expecting what exactly? I'm suprised Spike hasn't been taken away yet. You know by the little men in the white jackets.
"Giles was being a good watcher. A good ""Father"".

Lay off my child if you know what's good for you.

I really believe ""the Riper"" would have acted the same way even if he knew Spike could hurt him.

The SG was totally justified in attacking Spike the way they did. Of course I think they should have staked him (but I would miss the Spike character though).

Even Dawn got over her ""crush"" after what Spike did to Buffy. Way to go Dawne!

Standing strong for Buffy standing strong for each other. That is what the SG is all about."
"I have suggested before that Dru and Spike were not a real couple until he killed the Chinese Slayer and/or Angelus got a soul.

I wondered that too. Maybe part of the reason Spike killed the Slayer was to earn Dru's 'affection.' (He was the 'baby' of an over-achieving family.) She did call him ""Wicked wicked Spike"" for it.

What made me think they hadn't been lovers until that point was the way Dru held out her hand to him. She first extended her arm palm down as she starts commenting on his accomplishment. Then as she calls him ""Wicked Spike"" she rotated her hand until the palm was up. Maybe I'm wrong about this but wasn't the palm considered an erogenous zone? Why ladies had to wear gloves in public and gentlemen grasped the fingers and kissed the back of the hand. Kissing the palm was considered a sexual act. (I seem to remember someone telling me this.)

Anyway Spike doesn't make a move towards her until she does that and then ... they definitely were a couple.
"When a person ""dies"" in the Buffyverse the mystical laws that are affected by that person's death take effect immediately even if the person can be resuscitated. We know this from ""Prophecy Girl"". Buffy's death brought about a new slayer (Kendra) even though she was resuscitated.

This brings up a new question. Can Angel now enter Kate's apartment without invite? She still hasn't invited him in.

"I have a notion on how they might bring Joyce back (if they so chose to do so). When spike learns of joyce's passing he might give up his buffybot (end of ""I was made to love you"") and opt for a Joyce robot instead in another ill fated attempt to show his love for buffy. The sueto Joyce might be so like the real one was that they cant keep from thinking of her as the real one."
Actually if Joss follows his precedents she would be more likely to reappear as a memory a dream or a hallucination.
"Greetings my friends

Sorry to be in and out. I try not to lurk but I am busy and crazed most of the time. Details some other time. But I do like to check in and hear what you are thinking. Such wonderful insights among you.

Before I get to my question I have to tell you what I have been doing for the last 20 minutes. I have been watching ""the Body"" tonight keying in on all the good parts--which of course ended up being the whole thing. So wonderful. Anyhow I have spent the last 20 minutes trying to get throught the Enya melt-down without crying and I just can't friggin' do it. I keep rewinding and saying ""okay this time I will pay attention to all the little things and all the little gestures. I have a friend who is an actor and I want to talk with him about it about the whole episode but I end up a squinty-eyed cry-baby every time. Her voice just destroys me and by the time she ends with that sobbing ""why"" I am just a wreak. Maybe I am making too much out of this but in just those few seconds she pulls something out of me. I am amazed stunned by this performance.

Okay enough of that. Now tell me:

How did Dawn know which body to go to in the morgue? She walked past three? four? other bodies right up to Joyce without even looking hard at the others. It seemed like she knew from the moment she walked in that her ""mother"" was the on the furthest table. How? Supernatural ""I am the Key "" powers or is it that a daughter just knows what her mother looks like draped head to toe in a sheet in a dim room?

Me I think it was just a writer's time-saver just like the paramedics leaving Buff there with the body rather than go through the standard motions of bringing Joyce to the hospital. One of you had already commented on that. I don't think that Dawn is going to touch her mother and bring her back to life. I think that would make ""the Body"" ring a little hollow. However after seeing the episode again part of me hopes that is exactly what will happen if only to let me watch Enya's moment in some kind of peace instead of pieces. As a fan I want Joyce to stay dead for the dramatic potential and growth of the other characters but as a person as someone witnessing all that pain all that love...God just bring her back! I'll bitch and moan and cry foul about it on the board but I'll secretly smile when none of you are looking.

Good talking to you again. "
Actually when Dawn reaches out towards her mother at the end I thought she was (finally!) going to close her mother's eyes. Thus driving home the point that Joyce is gone.

I know they left Joyce's eyes open for dramatic effect and it worked. It was certainly creepy and jarring to see her like that. But I kept wondering when someone would reach out and close her darn eyes.

Perhaps if they hadn't gone to credits so quickly we would have seen Dawn do just that.
I wondered about Dawn knowing that the last body was that of her mother's. I don't think it was a storytelling time-saving contrivance - all the white-sheeted gurneys looked identical. I also wonder at the fact that she locked the door. In my mind no matter how distraught she was it seems incredible that a 14-year-old girl would lock herself *in* a morgue. While I do not think Dawn will revive Joyce I do think her actions foreshadow her future role. My guess is that Dawn will transfer energy from another dimension (a spirit soul person) into something else. At the moment it is viable to assume that she will either transfer this energy into the shell that is Spike or into the shell that is the Buffybot.


Crazy question: Do you think that vamp was that strong because of the proximity of Dawn's energy?
Crazy question: Do you think that vamp was that strong because of the proximity of Dawn's energy?

My answer is NO. We all know vamps are stronger than normal humans (Angel Spike Darla Dru and counless other vamps are testament to that) but this guy looked like he had not fed in awhile. Even in their vamps faces they're bodies do not look like they are on the edge of decay - the which is the way his looked.

Which is why Dawn was able to fight him off. Buffy's difficulty however stems from the fact that she was not in full-Slayer mode due to grieving over the loss of Joyce.


I was under the impression that the vamp was newly risen and had never fed yet thus the appearance... Anyone have any theories here?
I agree with you Aquitaine. VMS
"I didn't have the courage to actually read the whole script but ""the body"" script is available at the shooting script site now. You'll find that they describe him as a newly arisen Vampire... so you were right Aquitaine! :)

I feel like scrap today... can't much think of anything else to say! Have a good day all! :)"
Yes I thought the same -- newly arisen vamp trying to feed for the first time.
I think Buffy had such a hard time of it because she was so spent from griveing over her mother. I thought it was really lame that they had that scene at the end until I noticed how hard of a time she was having. It really drove in the point about how much the death is going to affect her.
Joyce was on a table under the examination lamp with a tray of instruments next to it. Since Dawn knew the doctor had just finished with her it was the obvious choice.

(Just read the shooting script and it backs this up.)
Does the Shooting Script shed any light (haha - bad joke I know) on the locking of the door? I'm at work so I can't check.

Thanks for the answers Nina & Tornado.
Nope it just says:

She shuts the door behind her. Locks it. Sees the examining table at the other end and slowly starts toward it. Passing the other corpses becoming less steady...

As an aside you can post on message boards but you can't visit ? Odd.

As another aside if I worked in a morgue there would be almost blinding light on all the time. None of this dark dreary lighting they always use on TV.
"LOL. Well... Here's how it goes at work. It all comes down to the fact that this message board doesn't have a lovely purple and yellow background;) that announces that I'm surfing.

For some reason people have such adverse feelings about writing that when they see you typing away they just 'assume' you are working hard:)

Thanks for the info. I can't wait to read the script tonight.

""As another aside if I worked in a morgue there would be almost blinding light on all the time. None of this dark dreary lighting they always use on TV. ""

ITA blind me with fluorescent lighting if need be but don't leave me in the dark with dead people. I mean if I had to see dead people then I want to *see* dead people:)

Rofl...add my vote in for blinding bright light. With all the odd occurances and what have to be missing bodies in Sunnydale you would think the morgue would be a little better lit. (of course then it would not have been quite as creepy-grin)
Ok prolly no one wants to know morgue details...but th ey're wheeled away and put in well big refrigerators. You want em cold but not frozen. No way are they left around in a room at room temp why anything could happen lol. Paramedics don't leave mentioning that you should not touch the body and police come on over. In a lot of small towns the fire department emts drop by. Lots of people..but maybe the process was depicted inaccurately because in RL Buffy's dad would have been notified by the police.
Aquitaine since we've got you at work...are there any repercussions for getting caught giggling at the keyboard because we have said naughty things about your maid service poll results??????:):):):) We can make you laugh I know we can.
"I know you can. Bad Rufus!

Actually I've taken to cackling at unexpected times throughout the day so that when I *actually* guffaw or snort at something on the board folks just think I'm being my usual bizarre self:)


While on the subject of Dawn what do you guys make of her ""I still know how to pee"" remark? Seems to me maybe Dawn will actually keep it together more than we have been led to believe. It would be an interesting reversal if *she* were the one to help Buffy in the end."
"***""I still know how to pee"" remark***

I took that remark to mean that she didn't need to be treated like a child anymore - like she has felt she has been treated by Buffy and most of the gang for as long as she can remember. Something a typical 14-year-old would say. Sort of an automatic response to an offer of assistance."
Sort of an automatic response to an offer of assistance.

Hmmm. I know I'm reading too much into it:) but it sounded like she used a put-on typical Dawn response to manipulate the situation (I don't mean manipulate in a negative sense just in a premeditated sense) so she could get what she wanted which was to see her mother's body. I love that despite having her concern re: the body dismissed by Buffy she was still determined to go to the morgue.

I'll say one thing she certainly has a mind of her own. I'm liking her better all the time.
"She ""isn't real"" she lost that framework on her reality.

Now the mother who was her anchor is gone.

But Dawn ""still knows how to pee"". I saw that as more of a statement that there still is something left she hasn't totally totally faded away. Dawn was trying to hold on to some piece of reality some facet some information that she has that is true.

Practically everything Dawn has ever counted on as ""true"" such as my life is my life my mother will always be there for me practically everything she ever believed in about herself the world around her about reality have been declared a lie. Practically everything she has believed - wrong. Taken from her. She must wonder what will be taken from her next. What is left to take?

I thought she was trying to convince herself more than anyone else with that statement. ""I can still pee"" (at least that much I can count on to be ""real"". A piece of reality that will not just disappear. Not much but at least something.)

I see Dawn in much danger. Not from Glory but herself. I believe that she will start to wonder that with the pain is it really worth being ""real"" being a sentient being. Being a human with all the pain that goes with it. Would she be better off being Glory's ""key"". Do ""keys"" feel any pain?

It will be up to Buffy to convince Dawn that it is worth being human. ""Keys"" might not feel any pain but nor do they feel any joy. Have any friends. Keys can't love and be loved. And most of all ""keys"" can't be Buffy sister. And more than anything right now that is what Buffy needs right now not some mystical power key from some other dimension but her ""little sister"" (terk-jerking crying hugging scene).

I believe that is the way that Dawn will help Buffy in the end.

Perhaps Dawn in stronger than I think and not suicidal. But when practically everything has been taken from you like it has for Dawn your whole framework and perceptions of reality destroyed (at least we can count on the fact we are ""real"" that our memories actually happened we are who we think we are) how can one be strong?

Also from what we have been told about Dawn (the memories might not be real but for practical purposes they do give insight's into Dawn's personality) Dawn isn't the ""keep it together"" type. The way we were told she acted when her mother and father got a divorce kind of foreshadows that.

""While on the subject of Dawn what do you guys make of her ""I still know how to pee"" remark? Seems to me maybe Dawn will actually keep it together more than we have been led to believe. It would be an interesting reversal if *she* were the one to help Buffy in the end. ""
"It all comes down to the fact that this message board doesn't have a lovely purple and yellow background;) that announces that I'm surfing.

Skip the garish frame and go straight to the text:

If you hit the main page of that site (or most any other with frames) you can point at a link that opens in one of the frames and (Win: right-click Mac: hold the button down ) and choose (IE: Open Link in New Window Netscape: New Window with Link) then close the original window.

""I mean if I had to see dead people then I want to *see* dead people:)""

Oooh. Thanks for the tip Tornado.
"About Dawn's remark that she can pee by herself...

I can't take the credit because I read it somewhere else and don't remember who said it... but that person pointed out that it could well be put in parallel with Xander's line in ""Restless"" when he says that he has to pee. Buffy asks him if he needs help and he answers that he's got a system.(hmmm... interesting!)

Another ""Restless"" bit would be Xander's arm stuck between two walls... Joyce was stuck between walls in Buffy's dream."
"Didn't Anya make some comment like ""Xander's decided he blames the wall""?

Does sound like a *Restless* tie-in to me!"
Yes it does doesn't it? (But no mahjongg and mice I suppose)
I had made the connection about the wall (barrier dimension death obstacle) but not about the peeing... Interesting.

What you suggest seems to corroborate those old rumours that said that Xander and Dawn were connected in some way. This is just me personal feeling but I really hope Xander doesn't acquire any special skills. What makes him special (and I'm not a big X fan) is the fact that he doesn't *have* any paranormal connection.

One more question. What did you guys think of both Xander and Tara kissing Willow's forehead? It seemed almost like a reverent act (religious even) but it also got me to thinking and feeling nervous about Willow's residual headaches and about how those kisses might shed light on Willow's spirit-head sunking fate in Restless.
"I just did a Buffy Marathon on Tuesday night watching 6 episodes from season 3. I was wondering how to bring the topic to this board but I might just have found the good thread!

Something caught my attention in Graduation part 2. Buffy says to Xander:""You're the key"" and she says that a few times. Xander is all proud of that. When we know that JW already had planned season 5 ahead... it must have meant something more than being a key for the final battle.

Another bit from the same episode caught my attention. The mayor becomes a snake. Dawn can be recognized by snakes and dogs... had the mayor ascension anything to do with Glory? Why JW would come back with a snake when he already used it as part of a season finale?

I just shoot those questions... feel free to think about them. I still feel that I don't have enough knowledge about the details of the show to get an explanation for those! :)"
There's lots of fun in looking at several Bufffy episodes in a row. I watched several from season three and was surprised how many times Willow is told to be careful about her magic how she could hurt herself or the spells could get out of control.

Zander as a key could be a forshadowing that something he does triggers the key in Dawn.
Sorry to burst you bubble on the snake theory Nina but Joss has used the snake image numerous times. In addition to the mayor in Graduation 2 and the snake in Shadow in Reptile Boy the demon Machida was a snake and Laconis the baby eating demon in Band Candy was a snake. Technically the demon that comes out of the Hellmouth first is more octopuss-like but it's tentacles are very snake-ish. So I don't think using Glory's use of snakes is particularly significant.

But Buffy referring to Xandar as the key that could mean nothing. Or it could mean a lot.
Thanks Marya... I seem to loose my head these days! :)

Current board | More March 2001