March 2001 posts
The loss of Joyce is a tragedy -- not only for Buffy but for many
of her friends as well.
And it is not just because they are greiving for a friend whose
parent died. It is not just because they are greiving for somebody
they know. They are also greiving for a person who was a mother
figure in their own lives.
Buffy is the only one out of the Scoobies (those who remain on
the show) who could have been said to have something approaching
a ""normal"" home life. Yes her parents were
divorced but she lived happily with an understanding and concerned
mother and a bratty kid sister. Life was good.
Look at the homelives of the other Scoobies -- Xander's parents
both appear to be borderline abusive alcoholics. He seems to fear
them and took the first available opportunity to move out and
live a life away from them.
Willow's father appears to be absent and her mother is a workaholic
who never paid much attention to what her daughter did.
Tara well her all know her story painfully well. Her mother who
was probably convinced of her own inherent evil died relatively
recently. Her father and brother thought she was a demon who required
Anya's parents died more than a millenia previously. Her idea
of what it is like to have a parent is probably on par with the
rest of her ideas of what it is like to be human -- she doesn't
know. She has no experience in that arena. And just as she was
learning about humanity and love from Xander she may have been
learning what the mother - child relationship was like from Joyce.
Indeed all of the Scoobies in one way or another must have looked
up to Joyce as the mother figure in their lives. Kids and teens
whose own mother was absent or negligent may tend to see the mother
of a beloved friend as a somebody who they would like to have
as their mother. An ideal. This is how the Scoobies saw Joyce
-- as their mother figure. And Joyce in return loved each of them
and treated them no differently than her own children.
Now that is gone. The familial harmony has been disrupted. The
Scoobies have been set to drift without their tether to the ""real""
and ""normal"" world.
Lets hope that they can hold onto themselves throughout this ordeal.
Just as Joyce was a mother
figure for all the SG Giles is the father figure. As traumatic
as Joyce's passing was they still have him - and each other.
As I am English i have not see all the esp of Season
4 and have only seen up to Shroud Of Rahmon and Shadow. Also another
thing that bugs about Riley regarding his statement in WTWA is
the fact that Anya got stabbed through the hand and some of the
party goers got glass in their faces.
week I must admit that the choices before me were a little more
difficult than usual. I had one film in
mind a most excellent one and it was about fate destiny heartbreak
all that good stuff. (Well good in
the literary sense anyway! ;) A lot of what went on in this weeks
Buffy /Angel episodes made me think a
lot about fate and destiny and should you try to change what seems
to have been foreordained or should
you accept that you played your part in the total scheme of things
and that all has meaning you just canít
always see it.
But it didnít *quite* fit. So I got out my copy of another
film I had considered one about the desires of
angels and the humans that they watch over. Very good also a number
of very pertinent BtVS/A:tS
references mucho philosophicalo but still not there either. (~sigh~)
Another time perhaps in fact
another time most definitely.
So I trudge back upstairs riffle through my library wait for the
muse to strike and bless her heart she
comes through! Finally I came across what I think is a film that
many of you may have seen before but
also possibly not and it ties in very neatly with the Buffyverse
this week. If you have seen it before Iím
guessing that it may have been a long long time ago and perhaps
some of its wonder has faded from
memory. If so itís time to dust off those neurons and get
I clearly recall when I saw it first-- I was working as a short
order cook and cleanup person (Xander much
anyone?) at our little townsí local college and one of
the perks you got by being a staff member was
access to college activities at the special discounted rates normally
made available to students and faculty.
One of the regular weekly events was a Saturday/Sunday night film
series in one of the larger lecture halls.
(This was actually *film* by the way video didnít exist
in 1971!) Some flicks were classics some were
second-runs of recent films. If you were a member of the public
it was $3.00. If you were a student or
staff it was only $1.25! What a deal and what a wonderful array
of films-- whoever chose them certainly
did have good taste. I was there at least every other week I think.
And one week they played this one
which over two decades later made its way into my video library
when The Criterion Collection released a
beautifully remastered laserdisc of *The Seventh Seal* directed
by Ingmar Bergman.
I am going to quote from the discís rear jacket text by
Peter Cowie because frankly I canít state it any
better or more succinctly:
ì*The Seventh Seal* takes its title from the Book of Revelations
and in 1956 the threat of Apocalypse
seemed as palpable as it must have been in medieval Sweden. Yet
Bergman refuses to succumb to the
pessimism that pervades all those about him; he identifies now
with the zealous knight now with his
cynical squire. His characters manage to overcome the *fear* of
death rather than the fact of death and if
as the knight discovers one can achieve even a single gesture
of goodwill then the long struggle of life will
So get out your chessboard look Death in the eye make your best
moves and enjoy (or brood about) this
remarkable film that inspired a whole generation of both moviegoers
and moviemakers alike.
E Pluribus Cinema Unum
Yay. Finally a CMotW I've actually
seen! What I love about this film is the completely unironic irony
of its exploration of fear (life) and death.
Ohhh. And the sombre visual symbolism. You've got to love this
"...'jumbo shrimp' and 'put
the seat back forward'? (George Carlin).
Glad for the yay! -- Have you gotten to see any of the other flicks
I've suggested so far? Just curious...
Also there is a hilarious parody of *The Seventh Seal* called
""Die Duve"" (The Dove). I have it on an old
Beta tape somewhere everybody speaks in a mock-Swedish that would
make the Muppets' Swedish Chef proud and the Knight plays a game
of badminton with Death. There is also a cow named 'mooska'. What
more can I say?"
like jumbo shrimp;) I thought you'd like that turn of phrase.
As for whether I've picked up any of your previous suggestions...
I nearly picked up LA Story earlier this week.
OT question: Have you ever seen the French film Ridicule? I don't
know why I just thought of it now but it's a film I think you'd
How can Spike have a conscience
without a soul..without a functioning brain?
Wouldn't his personality and actions be soley the result of the
demon soul that posesses him?
Could it be possible for a vampire under certain conditions(chip)
to conquer their demon soul and regain their human soul..and if
not is it the demon soul that is reasoning is chosing to do good
over bad experiencing feelings of love and obsession in Spike
If so where do the characteristics of William come from that Spike
has shown on occasion? Could his soul still be in there trapped
by the demon?
"Well I know that my take
on Spike and vampires in general is not one that most people adhere
to because I see that vamp behaviour as more primal/animalistic
than evil. I am always reminded of ""Lord of the Flies""
( the book not the movie) where when these youth and children
are removed from the rules/ethics of family teachings and society
in general they gradually lose their ""humanity""
and become very primal and yes in the end they enjoy the kill
seemingly void of conscience. Now whether conscience equates soul
is another matter. I always thought of it as the ability to chose
right from wrong. I am not convinced that vamps have that ability.
My son actually said an interesting thing to me the other day.
He kind of startled me by stating matter of factly that if his
dad or myself died he would not be able to cry as much as we could
or feel for others if the situation were reversed because he wasn't
""ready"" yet. Upon further questioning he
said that by ready he meant that the ""hormonal thing""
hadn't happened yet and that something had to happen in his brain
in order for him to be able to have that kind of compassion and
deep feeling. He had just had sex ed. that day at school so I
think that he was talking about puberty and the resulting emotional
changes to the person. Ten year old boys do have a round about
way of expressing themselves sometimes. Of course after that touching
moment with my child what did I think about? Spike's chip! What
kind of a parent does that make me?
Anywho what that chip might be releasing in Spike's brain who
knows? He has always been different even prechip I thought him
a facinating character. I have often wondered about William and
what happened to his soul especially as someone already mentioned
heaven is not really referred to in the Buffyverse. We don't really
know if William's soul is in heaven or suppressed. It may even
be in limbo waiting to be released either by Spike's staking or
the demon leaving his body.
Whoops sorry to have gone on so long."
Was it me....or
did Dawn's art teacher look ALOT like Joyce? Was that done apurpose
do you think?
Or am I crazy?
I thought she looked
an aweful lot like Joyce as well. Funny no one commented on that
yet..I completely forgot about the resemblance until you mentioned
I had to watch it a second
time just to verify tha it wasn't Joyce's ghost. But since most
of the students heard her instructions I ruled that out. I thought
I was the only one who had mistaken her.
totally thought that too! In fact when I went back to watch it
again I tried to make sure it wasn't her or a ghost of her or
whatever. Why do you suppose they look alike. On purpose or coincidence?
It was eery.
Does anyone have
access to the shooting script to see what it says about the art
teacher in that scene?
I'm curious to know why that occurred - and relieved to know I'm
not reading too much into it - thanks guys!
"I can't remember if it was here but back when
FFL aired there was a lot of message board debating on whether
or not Angelus had ever killed a slayer. The evidence is kind
is of spotty: he tells Spike to avoid Slayers and he doesn't seem
enthused about fights he wasn't certain to win but that ""now
you're one of us"" could be taken to mean a select group
Anyway assuming he did how do you think he did it? IMO it wouldn't
be an upfront ""fists and fangs"" fight because
that's just not in Angelus' personality.
What I keep coming back to is the Angel/Spike meeting in School
Hard when Angel tells Spike he's been giving Buffy the ""I'm
all tortured"" routine so she leaves him alone to feed.
Spike not only is not surprised that Angel's deceiving her rather
than battling her but he comments that ""the Anne Rice
routine's still working.""
I think that if Angelus went after a Slayer he did it with his
usual mind games. He got her to trust him and then toyed with
her for a long time until she was completely broken before offing
her. When did the romanticization of vampires begin? Before the
soul-having thing? Wouldn't it be a great flashback episode to
see a Slayer reading about ""immortal children of darkness""
tortured by their thirsts yada-yada- yada and actually falling
for Angelus' impersonation thereof?
I think that if Angelus
went after a Slayer he did it with his usual mind games. He got
her to trust him and then toyed with her for a long time until
she was completely broken before offing her.
That is possible. But the slayer would know that he is a vampire.
Slayers are supposed to sense vampires.
A young one might not have developed that. And Angel does have
a thing for young slayers.
If he did go after a slayer I believe first he would go after
all that is close to a slayer. Would kill her watcher before her.
I don't know if most slayers would trust a vampire though. And
most slayers are solidary figures so there wouldn't be many close
to her that he could go after.
It did seem like Angulus had a healthy respect for and a desire
to stay away from slayers when he told Spike about them. That
did seem odd.
I tend to be in the did not camp
although your evidence for did gives me pause. But you descriptin
of how he'd go about it well that's just creepy. *shiver*
"I make it a policy never to respond to trolls
and bezors. But I feel the wonderful open mindedness the rest
of you demonstrated deserves a response.
I did not use the offending word to be hurtful to any single group
of people. And if Joss and Co used the wardrobe change simply
as a lazy way to signal that Lindsey had returned to (insert sociological
cliche of your choice here ) then shame on them.
However I have confidence that they are much cleverer than that.
I had taken the choice of wardrobe for Lindsey to be satirical.
It was in the spirit of satire that I made those remarks. But
I've been around the net long enough to know that it takes much
greater wit than I possess to successfully achieve satire in this
medium. So shame on me.
I am sincerly sorry that my carelessness may have caused you good
folks any distress. I particularty apologize to Rendyl because
I was way too flippant in my reply to her concerned post. You
and the rest of my defenders were remarkably supportive even though
you clearly were not comfortable with my choice. For that I humbly
thank you. OnM I am especially gratified to learn that I am counted
among those that you really truly don't dislike.
As for the self appointed PC police please try to ignore them.
I assure you that's what I intend to do. Well except for this
word from somone who is way smarter and much better at satire
""Well if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters
fight fire what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention
that part to us do they?""
I have found those who so freely proclaim themselves ""open
minded"" some the the most closed minded and intolerant
people there are.
So quickly to accuse prejudice in others so unwilling and unable
to see it within themselves.
Half-Shirt Replaces ""Wife-Beater"" As Official
Undergarment of Domestic Violence"
"Is the ""Wife Beater""
t-shirt bru-ha-ha still going on? Everyone needs to chill out...they
called them that where I'm from too (Michigan). I don't know anyone
who ever thought that the phrase was complementary to wife beaters."
This has been driving me crazy
for years but I've never actually asked anyone: How do you pronounce
Joss? Is it short for something?
"Don't know if it's
short for anything. But it is pronounced just like it's spelled
(rhymes with ""hoss""). It is *not* pronounced
a Scandinavian name. There is also a famous British actor named
I heard that his
name is actually Joe Whedon but he changed it when he started
writing into Joss the chinese word for luck. 'Course I may be
completely off my rocker:)
Lindsey kicked ass in the latest episode! When he went and got
those cowboy boots out of the closet I new something incredible
would happen and it did. A little bit of me was actually rooting
for him a while but ultimatly I was glad Angel beat him. Still
this just goes to show how complex and layered a character he
is. Unlike Spike whose ultimate motives we can't decide on Lindsey
is human and therefore he can change he can grow and he can learn.
Its not out of character for him to be merciful because he is
human and humans no matter how bad usually still have some good
This is why Lindsey is so great. He is a conflicted villian. He
isn't hardwired for evil like the demon bad guys we see in the
Buffyverse but rather makes the choice to be. Therefore he can
have moments of doubt moments of clarity and can go back and forth
between marginally good and hopelessly wicked.
If Joss knows what's good for the show he'll keep Lindsey around
for a long time to come
is definately a good character to have on the bad side. But he
must be a complete moron. He knows what vampires are and how they
think. Yet he is upset because Darla doesn't love him?????? Now
we know she is playing him but come on guy. She is a vampire!!!!!
You have no chance with her unless you let yourself be a snack
or let her turn you. Hey that makes me think; Could Lindsey or
any of the other lawyers still be lawyers if they became vampires?
"But he must
be a complete moron. He knows what vampires are and how they think.
Yet he is upset because Darla doesn't love him?????? Now we know
she is playing him but come on guy. She is a vampire!!!!!
Well the organ Lindsey is using when considering Darla probably
isn't the one protected by his skull... If you know what I mean.
That would go a long way in explaining his ""stupidity.""
Plus he knew her initially as a human and is probably still
expecting her to respond in a human fashion."
Could Lindsey or any of the other lawyers still
be lawyers if they became vampires?
No even vampires have some standards.
Roflol Good One Linda VMS
"Until now it seemed the story arc had to do
with Angel losing his way and finding it again. But that has played
itself out with six episodes left for the season. Lindsey hasn't
been in the fore front but his actions have been pivotal. Is it
possible we've been diverted from the real redemption story? I
think maybe some of the most important lines spoken in Epiphany
were spoken by Angel when he was beating the bajeezuz out of him.
""I'm sorry Lindsey. I'm sorry she'll never love you.
I'm sorry you'll have to live with that. I'm sorry I didn't try
harder when you came to me for help. I'm sorry you made the wrong
know that there is a Hell in the Buffyverse. In fact there are
several or more. Angel has been to one of these. Presumably Buffy
and Lily/Anne have been to another. And there is even Hell-on-Earth
if we choose to believe Holland Manners.
We also know that there is at least one dimension that is a ""good""
place or at least neutral - the dimension where the Oracles resided.
Is there a Heaven in the Buffyverse? We've seen no evidence of
one. Is Heaven where the mysterious Powers That Be reside? Or
are they outside of the three-level concept of Heaven Earth and
When Dawn asks Buffy ""Where is she?"" in
reference to their mother after her death Buffy has no answer.
The automatic answer in the Realverse is ""Heaven.""
But there seems to be no such place or dimension in the Buffyverse.
Is this why Angel has trouble believing in his own redemption?
Because he sees no end no real reward no better dimension?? Because
there is no discernable concept of Heaven? What good is redemption
if you must continue to go through Hell?
Did Doyle go to Heaven after his self-sacrifice? Or was he relegated
to a demon dimension because he was half demon? Shouldn't his
actions speak louder be more important than his biology? Where
do Angel Wesley and Cordelia believe his soul/essence/spirit/consciousness
Why have we only seen ghostly visitations from the darker side
of the Buffyverse? - such as the First Evil's use of Jenny and
other ghosts from Angel's past in an attempt to make him commit
suicide; James and the teacher in ""I Only Have Eyes
For You."" If ghosts can torment then surely they can
also help and advise.
Most Realverse religions have a concept of Heaven or a better
more-enlightened dimension that can be obtained after death on
Earth. However there is no evidence of a similar concept in the
Buffyverse. In fact religion is rarely spoken of in the Buffyverse.
Is this done deliberately to not showcase a particular religion
or world view? Laudable since this allows viewers to project their
own world view on the characters and situations in the Buffyverse.
Or is this a philosophy that suggests that *this* is all there
is? That we make our own Heaven or Hell here on Earth?
Why is it that we have no problem in believing in multiple Hells
in the Buffyverse but we don't question the absence of even a
single Heaven?? Is this because it is so much easier to believe
that the worst can happen rather believing that the best can happen?
I realize alot of this has to do with how Joss conceived of the
Buffyverse - that the Earth was originally a demon dimension not
a Garden as stated in a number of religions. But if there are
demon dimensions why are there not angelic (for lack of a better
word) dimensions? There must be some sort of Good to balance all
that Evil. Or the world and the universe would spin down into
Chaos. Good and Evil balance each other - you can't have one without
the other. And the Good cannot be just what is here on Earth.
That is not enough to balance all the Evil that is resident here
and trying to leak through from other dimensions.
Is Heaven in the Buffyverse just assumed? There is all this Evil
so there must be Good as well? Then why is it not spoken of? Have
the characters seen so much Evil that they can no longer conceive
of a dimension of Good Heaven?
Yes I know - lots of questions and no answers. But this has been
kind of bugging me since ""The Body"" when
Buffy didn't answer Dawn's question. Maybe it's been bugging me
since I *assumed* Buffy would say ""Heaven""
and she didn't. Please let me know your thoughts."
"1. Vice appears to be more interesting that
2. Since what we know of the ""olden days""
comes from the WC everything they say is suspect to me. If these
old demons left for another demon dimension what made them leave?
And do they really want to come back?
3. There must be a ""Heaven"" or Valhalla
or Happy Hunting Ground because without that concept the struggle
to defeat evil to be good wouldn't surivive. Life would be too
depressing. Or some cosmic joke.
4. How can there be balance between good and evil if there are
so few warriors on the side of good? Or is it that 100000 vampires
with their evil are equal to one Slayer.
5. Good and Evil order and chaos ying and yang:
The premise is that they need each other to survive to make the
world go around.
6. Maybe none of these concepts exist in the Buffyverse and it's
all about being and not being. You're ether; you're solid and
the dynamic of the changing is what makes the Buffyverse happen."
I think that at least once we
have seen evidence of a heaven-like realm when the white light
came for the ghosts in IOHEFY. Also there have been at least three
miracles connected to Angel now: his reappearance from hell the
snowfall and now his entry to Kate's room. It would definately
appear as though there were more going on than just the human
realm and the demons. Again it all seems to me like the Buddhist
cosmology where there are multiple heavens and hells and a lot
of other things in between. Still Joss's world is a bit darker
and more ambiguous and I think it has to be because otherwise
there would be no room for faith and existential angst and that
would make for very poor storytelling.
I'd forgotten about these miracles or examples of evidence of
a heavenly dimension.
Perhaps the Buffyverse is much like our own in this respect: there
are lots of examples of Evil but the examples of Good are fewer
and farther between.
that there is a Hell in the Buffyverse. In fact there are several
>or more. Angel has been to one of these. Presumably Buffy
>have been to another. And there is even Hell-on-Earth if we
>believe Holland Manners.
I don't think the hells we have seen in the Buffyverse are the
I remember that in one episode (I can't remember which one) these
were referred to as demon dimensions. I tend to think of these
parallel Universes that happen to be occupied by demons.
I think the Heaven and Hell you are talking about are the afterlifes
where people are sent to be rewarded or purnished for their (mis)deeds.
I can't remember any direct reference to Heaven or Hell in the
Buffyverse. In fact I think the show has deliberately tried to
direct references to religions. Even the PTB could just be a group
demons that are friendly towards residents in the Buffyverse.
So there could be many hells (demon dimensions) earths (as shown
the Wish) and heavens (where life for humans is very pleasant)
Buffyverse. Having multiple hells shouldn't be too depressing
as they are hells and not Hells.
By the way this is my first post. I usually lurk.
I do not believe Buffy knows where
her Mom is. It would be good if they had a show where she could
work out her concepts on eternity. As you pointed out we have
no information on any good places that humans or demons go. Phantom
Dennis's mother went somewhere but was it a good place or bad
one? I mean she did callously tie him up and brick him into the
wall before she died from a heart attack. I have no idea where
she went. I do know that she did not seemed very pleased to leave
our reality. I think like you that it would be a good thing to
explorer. Can someone get a letter to Joss about this? VMS
Does anyone seriously believe that someone in their
mid 20s at most without the powers of a Slayer could seriously
pose a threat to a Vampire over 200 years old? Riley should off
got the crap kicked out of him.
DID beat the crap out of him. Albeit not as much as I would have
liked but he threw the guy into several walls and trash bins and
was only abated when Riley pulled a shock prod out on him unexpectedly.
You saw his limping bloody and beaten condition when he made it
back to Buffy's dorm room to point the gun at Angel.
Is me or is Riley just an incredible spaz. I've
just see Where The Wild Things Are for the first time. At the
end of the show he says I just glad no one got hurt. Does the
scar on Xander's face count then or the fact that Xander nearly
got drowned either. Do not even get me started on his actions
in Season 5. How does someone that insecure and petty end up in
a position of authority in a crack miltary operation?
Is it just me or were Willow and Buffy both a pair
of bitches towards Faith? After seeing Five By Five and Sanctuary
i have to say my sympathies lie firmly with Faith. Didn't Buffy
or Willow learn anything from Hus or the Kalderash Gypsies about
" Spike is acting
less of the ""Big Bad"" because he expects
to gain something for his good behaviour. Angel is acting out
of more noble reasons- he is acting out of a humanist philosopy
- that it does not matter if he has a destiny to fufill what matters
are the little acts of kindness he does. Those are what will ultimately
lead to his redemption. "
a suggestion: You might consider answering some of the posts in
the threads that have already been posted rather than starting
so many new threads...
I was thinking the same thing. Plus why are we talking about Riley
or Faith? This is Buffyverse history now. VMS
"I get the feeling that the writers of ""Reprise""
and ""Epiphany"" were thinking to of these
1. ""L'enfer c'est les autres"" (=Hell is
other people) from Sartre's ""Huis clos""
(=No Exit) and
2. ""Why this is hell nor am I out of it""
(Mephistopheles in Marlowe's ""Doctor Faustus"")
Now that's all well and good but doesn't this contradict the idea
that Angel was ""sent to hell"" at the end
of ""Becoming 2""? And for that matter where
is it that Buffy was supposed to have been in ""Anne""??"
It's been stated in BTVS that
there are thousands of hells.
I understand from 'Reprise' that Angel wanted to go to the Home
Office to kill all the senior partners. He assumed that 'Home
Office' for evil meant hell.
What he discovered in his chat with Holland was that the senior
partner wasn't coming from the Home Office he was coming TO the
Home Office: Here where humanity plays out the conflicts of good
and evil in everyday life and where evil often seems to be winning.
That's what drove him to despair
is still evil he has shown no remorse for anything he did. if
the chip was removed he would revert to his old habits. THE CHIP
IS NOT A SOUL IT ONLY PREVENTS HIM FROM KILLING. IT DOES NOT GIVE
ANY FORM OF CONSCIENCE AT ALL.
William is not the saint he is made out to be. He was obsessed
with Cicely he display no signs of interest in the brutal murders
that were being committed by Angelus Darla or Drusilla.
He says "" i prefer not to think of such matters that's
what the Police are for."". That clearly shows someone
with little or no compassion. I did however feel sorry for him
when he was rejected by Cicely but he was not a saint. Neither
was Liam but unlike Spike with the chip Angel eventually began
to make GENINUE efforts to atone for his sins. "
Long time lurker. First time poster.
I don't think his ignoring the murders made him less compassionate
than the other people at that party. They were taking the same
gruesome interest in gossiping about it that they took in gossiping
about HIM & his bloody awful poetry a few minutes later.
William struck me more as an escapist. A daydreamer. But as to
his ethics we saw little. I was inclined to believe him (a good
man) but I am also a redemptionista.
BTW I'm pretty sure that term came from the Mighty Big TV Boards
where I also lurk but do not post.
know this makes the opposition the Contras:)
"I see William as a man who doesn't stand up
for himself or anyone. He had a very hard time telling this young
girl that he had fallen for her. He was a mediocre man as he says
himself. If the townspeople found out where the vampires were
I doubt William would have gone. Liam on the other hand would
say ""allright a fight. lets go boyssssss.""
Liam had something that William did not have and that is passion.
This is why Angel is the warrior for good. The same passion that
made Angelus a terror even among other vampires is the same passion
when tweaked in a different direction makes him a foe that makes
evil tremble. VMS "
as he lacked the confidence to express it. He was after all a
Otherwise Spike would be a much colder vampire.
I don't see Liam running out with the boys to fight the vampires
so much as I see him fighting tooth and nail to save himself -
and maybe a select few like his sister- from a vampire attack.
Do people do good because their conscience convinces them that
good is the proper choice or do they do good because if they don't
their conscience will bother them hurt? The conscience isn't the
organ used for reasoning but is the parent figure that keeps telling
us ""no no"" and ""you've been a
That's not to imply that a chip and a conscience are the same;
one is not integral to the individual and the other is. And as
someone else has posted the chip doesn't keep Spike from doing
evil just from harming humans himself.
"I thought initially
that the Initiative had potential as a story line because it could
bring up so many issues for Buffy and the Scoobies in terms of
evil-fighting. Just the high-tech Initiative tasers vs. the Gothic
stake symbolize a lot about the approach.
In terms of the chip I think it should be noted that while it
might be argued that it functions in a similar way to a conscience
(i.e. you feel bad when you've done something bad) it provides
a very distorted narrow view of ""good"" and
Chipped Spike could kill Whistler or Doyle or maybe even Oz but
he couldn't lay a finger on Bethany's child-molesting father even
to prevent him from hurting someone else.
"True but keep in
mind that the chip isn't his only source for ""moral
knowledge "" now. At least so far he has had a strong
desire to do things that Buffy would like and not do things that
she wouldn't like. I know that's still not a substitute for a
soul but it is a closer approximation."
I just meant to point that out as a flaw in the
Initiative's 'rehabilitation' program if that in fact is what
Human morality even as just a memory is a totally different influence
on Spike I agree.
Isn't redemptionista a great term by the way? I came across it
on the BC&S board.
At least so
far he has had a strong desire to do things that Buffy would like
and not do things that she wouldn't like.
Spike's desire is to do things he _percieves_ the Buffy would
like or not like. But he has no real moral compass of his own.
Oh dear does this make me one of the Contra's now?
"Yes you're a Contra we're going to drive you
into the jungle and oppress the Buffyverse for years in a Redemptionista
Actually you're right he is doing things he perceives Buffy would
approve of but we don't know the extent to which his understanding
of right/wrong is influencing that. He has to at least remember
some of what he was expected to do to be ""a good man""
when he was human.
What I would really like to see for Spike's redemption or at least
its first step is for him to do a ""right thing""
that Buffy won't like.
Since he's completely alienated the Scoobies any information he
learns about how to defeat Glory or the Ben Connection will be
discounted so he might be put in a position where he would have
to act on his own initiative to protect Dawn or Buffy or the world
in general. "
So much debate
has followed since we learned more about him in the past two seasons
but in many posts i've read many people calling him well William
a better man than Angel's human self wil-Liam. I'd like to know
why. I admit i tend to get defensive about Angel but I do appreciate
Spike very much. Even reduced to passive-aggressive everyday villainy
he's still been a favorite of a character for me as much as Anya
I think many people
look at Angelus and think to become that sadistic something must
have been wrong with Liam. We get little glimpses in different
episodes that suggest the personality of the human does greatly
influence the behavior of the vampire.
Spike as a vampire has never achieved the 'world destroying' evil
Angelus and Dru strove for. He acts more human (eating food watching
tv) and his evil seems to be more about rebellion and being a
'bad boy'. There is a tendency to see him as less evil than Angelus.
The implication becomes William must have been a better man than
Liam. If we knew more about the demon that inhabits the body when
a vampire is created we might be able to tell whether the memories
of the human or the instincts of the demon influence the personality
"in terms of the vampire's
personality though it twists it.
I understand the ""demon"" to be some sort
of essence maybe not sentient in and of itself that reanimates
a human body.
"...we have so much
story yet so little real information on this topic. I can't say
whether William was a 'better' man than was Liam - I think it
can be dangerous to say that one person has more value than another
in fact. However I'm pretty sure that Liam would never have tried
to woo a woman with a line like: ""I know I'm a bad
poet but I'm a good man"":) The difference lies in the
men's definitions of themselves. Liam tried desperately *not*
to define himself and revelled in earthly (sinful) pleasures and
indulgences while William saw himself as 'walking in worlds the
others can't even begin to imagine'.
Also I do not think that William's pacifist's reaction to the
bloody murders in town makes him a bad person. He seems to have
been a bit of an anarchronism - not of his time. Conversely as
a vamp Spike is relatively 'with it'. This just shows how diametrically
opposed William's and Spike's attitudes are. The real difference
between the human versions of the two men and their vamp counterparts
lies in the fact that once vamped William seems to make a choice
to recreate himself as virtually the opposite of his original
self while Liam becomes more intense focused and obsessed.
I wonder what kind of vampire William would be if he hadn't adopted
the accent and the attitude. In FFL it is clear that his Spike
persona is still a work in progress. What would Spike be if he
wasn't a poseur? Or are all vamps poseurs of some kind?
I have suggested before that Dru and Spike were not a real couple
until he killed the Chinese Slayer and/or Angelus got a soul.
In either case Spike would definitely have been trying hard to
un-live up to his vamp family's expectations. I base this theory
on the fact that in FFL Angelus calls Dru and Darla *his* women
on the ""now you're one of us"" comment from
the same episode and on the fact that in Crush Spike once again
says that he and Dru were together for a hundred years - not a
hundred and twenty years. Moreover judging from the dynamics between
Spike and Angelus in season 2 I don't think that they could have
hung around together for so long if they were 'sharing' Dru.
-I wonder what kind of
vampire William would be if he hadn't adopted the accent and the
attitude. In FFL it is clear that his Spike persona is still a
work in progress. What would Spike be if he wasn't a poseur? Or
are all vamps poseurs of some kind?-<
brings up questions about Spike's relationship or lack thereof
Giles really went out on a limb last season when he asked Spike
to join the good side.
Speaking of Giles makes me think of his dressing down of Spike
in IWMTLY. Shudder. Even with two weeks' perspective the Spike
arc baffles me. How much humiliation can one vampire stand before
he'd be better off dead? He can't bite he can't hurt he can't
act normally... Where can he possibly go from here?
My mind=blank. LOL.
"Everything about that scene
evoked the 'softer side of Sears' scene from the first episode
yet this time we were supposed to cheer on the vicious creatures
circling someone hurt and helpless like wounded prey?
All those people babbling about how great it was to see ""The
Ripper"" again don't seem to take into account that
it doesn't take much courage to push around someone you KNOW can't
Gee you think that's maybe why ""The Ripper""
wasn't such a pleasant person to begin with?"
I didn't appreciate that myself I didn't get the
scene at all. Oh like talking down to Spike is gonna make them
all feel better. Like Buffy would have cared less?? Uhhhhhhh...Anyway
I thought it was cruel and were all suprised he's gonna make a
Buffybot. And we were expecting what exactly? I'm suprised Spike
hasn't been taken away yet. You know by the little men in the
being a good watcher. A good ""Father"".
Lay off my child if you know what's good for you.
I really believe ""the Riper"" would have
acted the same way even if he knew Spike could hurt him.
The SG was totally justified in attacking Spike the way they did.
Of course I think they should have staked him (but I would miss
the Spike character though).
Even Dawn got over her ""crush"" after what
Spike did to Buffy. Way to go Dawne!
Standing strong for Buffy standing strong for each other. That
is what the SG is all about."
have suggested before that Dru and Spike were not a real couple
until he killed the Chinese Slayer and/or Angelus got a soul.
I wondered that too. Maybe part of the reason Spike killed the
Slayer was to earn Dru's 'affection.' (He was the 'baby' of an
over-achieving family.) She did call him ""Wicked wicked
Spike"" for it.
What made me think they hadn't been lovers until that point was
the way Dru held out her hand to him. She first extended her arm
palm down as she starts commenting on his accomplishment. Then
as she calls him ""Wicked Spike"" she rotated
her hand until the palm was up. Maybe I'm wrong about this but
wasn't the palm considered an erogenous zone? Why ladies had to
wear gloves in public and gentlemen grasped the fingers and kissed
the back of the hand. Kissing the palm was considered a sexual
act. (I seem to remember someone telling me this.)
Anyway Spike doesn't make a move towards her until she does that
and then ... they definitely were a couple.
"When a person ""dies""
in the Buffyverse the mystical laws that are affected by that
person's death take effect immediately even if the person can
be resuscitated. We know this from ""Prophecy Girl"".
Buffy's death brought about a new slayer (Kendra) even though
she was resuscitated.
This brings up a new question. Can Angel now enter Kate's apartment
without invite? She still hasn't invited him in.
"I have a notion
on how they might bring Joyce back (if they so chose to do so).
When spike learns of joyce's passing he might give up his buffybot
(end of ""I was made to love you"") and opt
for a Joyce robot instead in another ill fated attempt to show
his love for buffy. The sueto Joyce might be so like the real
one was that they cant keep from thinking of her as the real one."
Actually if Joss follows his precedents
she would be more likely to reappear as a memory a dream or a
Sorry to be in and out. I try not to lurk but I am busy and crazed
most of the time. Details some other time. But I do like to check
in and hear what you are thinking. Such wonderful insights among
Before I get to my question I have to tell you what I have been
doing for the last 20 minutes. I have been watching ""the
Body"" tonight keying in on all the good parts--which
of course ended up being the whole thing. So wonderful. Anyhow
I have spent the last 20 minutes trying to get throught the Enya
melt-down without crying and I just can't friggin' do it. I keep
rewinding and saying ""okay this time I will pay attention
to all the little things and all the little gestures. I have a
friend who is an actor and I want to talk with him about it about
the whole episode but I end up a squinty-eyed cry-baby every time.
Her voice just destroys me and by the time she ends with that
sobbing ""why"" I am just a wreak. Maybe I
am making too much out of this but in just those few seconds she
pulls something out of me. I am amazed stunned by this performance.
Okay enough of that. Now tell me:
How did Dawn know which body to go to in the morgue? She walked
past three? four? other bodies right up to Joyce without even
looking hard at the others. It seemed like she knew from the moment
she walked in that her ""mother"" was the
on the furthest table. How? Supernatural ""I am the
Key "" powers or is it that a daughter just knows what
her mother looks like draped head to toe in a sheet in a dim room?
Me I think it was just a writer's time-saver just like the paramedics
leaving Buff there with the body rather than go through the standard
motions of bringing Joyce to the hospital. One of you had already
commented on that. I don't think that Dawn is going to touch her
mother and bring her back to life. I think that would make ""the
Body"" ring a little hollow. However after seeing the
episode again part of me hopes that is exactly what will happen
if only to let me watch Enya's moment in some kind of peace instead
of pieces. As a fan I want Joyce to stay dead for the dramatic
potential and growth of the other characters but as a person as
someone witnessing all that pain all that love...God just bring
her back! I'll bitch and moan and cry foul about it on the board
but I'll secretly smile when none of you are looking.
Good talking to you again. "
when Dawn reaches out towards her mother at the end I thought
she was (finally!) going to close her mother's eyes. Thus driving
home the point that Joyce is gone.
I know they left Joyce's eyes open for dramatic effect and it
worked. It was certainly creepy and jarring to see her like that.
But I kept wondering when someone would reach out and close her
Perhaps if they hadn't gone to credits so quickly we would have
seen Dawn do just that.
about Dawn knowing that the last body was that of her mother's.
I don't think it was a storytelling time-saving contrivance -
all the white-sheeted gurneys looked identical. I also wonder
at the fact that she locked the door. In my mind no matter how
distraught she was it seems incredible that a 14-year-old girl
would lock herself *in* a morgue. While I do not think Dawn will
revive Joyce I do think her actions foreshadow her future role.
My guess is that Dawn will transfer energy from another dimension
(a spirit soul person) into something else. At the moment it is
viable to assume that she will either transfer this energy into
the shell that is Spike or into the shell that is the Buffybot.
Crazy question: Do you think that vamp was that strong because
of the proximity of Dawn's energy?
question: Do you think that vamp was that strong because of the
proximity of Dawn's energy?
My answer is NO. We all know vamps are stronger than normal humans
(Angel Spike Darla Dru and counless other vamps are testament
to that) but this guy looked like he had not fed in awhile. Even
in their vamps faces they're bodies do not look like they are
on the edge of decay - the which is the way his looked.
Which is why Dawn was able to fight him off. Buffy's difficulty
however stems from the fact that she was not in full-Slayer mode
due to grieving over the loss of Joyce.
I was under the impression that
the vamp was newly risen and had never fed yet thus the appearance...
Anyone have any theories here?
agree with you Aquitaine. VMS
didn't have the courage to actually read the whole script but
""the body"" script is available at the shooting
script site now. You'll find that they describe him as a newly
arisen Vampire... so you were right Aquitaine! :)
I feel like scrap today... can't much think of anything else to
say! Have a good day all! :)"
I thought the same -- newly arisen vamp trying to feed for the
I think Buffy had
such a hard time of it because she was so spent from griveing
over her mother. I thought it was really lame that they had that
scene at the end until I noticed how hard of a time she was having.
It really drove in the point about how much the death is going
to affect her.
Joyce was on a
table under the examination lamp with a tray of instruments next
to it. Since Dawn knew the doctor had just finished with her it
was the obvious choice.
(Just read the shooting script and it backs this up.)
Does the Shooting Script shed any light (haha -
bad joke I know) on the locking of the door? I'm at work so I
Thanks for the answers Nina & Tornado.
it just says:
She shuts the door behind her. Locks it. Sees the examining table
at the other end and slowly starts toward it. Passing the other
corpses becoming less steady...
As an aside you can post on message boards but you can't visit
http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts/ ? Odd.
As another aside if I worked in a morgue there would be almost
blinding light on all the time. None of this dark dreary lighting
they always use on TV.
Well... Here's how it goes at work. It all comes down to the fact
that this message board doesn't have a lovely purple and yellow
background;) that announces that I'm surfing.
For some reason people have such adverse feelings about writing
that when they see you typing away they just 'assume' you are
Thanks for the info. I can't wait to read the script tonight.
""As another aside if I worked in a morgue there would
be almost blinding light on all the time. None of this dark dreary
lighting they always use on TV. ""
ITA blind me with fluorescent lighting if need be but don't leave
me in the dark with dead people. I mean if I had to see dead people
then I want to *see* dead people:)
Rofl...add my vote in for
blinding bright light. With all the odd occurances and what have
to be missing bodies in Sunnydale you would think the morgue would
be a little better lit. (of course then it would not have been
quite as creepy-grin)
no one wants to know morgue details...but th ey're wheeled away
and put in well big refrigerators. You want em cold but not frozen.
No way are they left around in a room at room temp why anything
could happen lol. Paramedics don't leave mentioning that you should
not touch the body and police come on over. In a lot of small
towns the fire department emts drop by. Lots of people..but maybe
the process was depicted inaccurately because in RL Buffy's dad
would have been notified by the police.
since we've got you at work...are there any repercussions for
getting caught giggling at the keyboard because we have said naughty
things about your maid service poll results??????:):):):) We can
make you laugh I know we can.
know you can. Bad Rufus!
Actually I've taken to cackling at unexpected times throughout
the day so that when I *actually* guffaw or snort at something
on the board folks just think I'm being my usual bizarre self:)
While on the subject of Dawn what do you guys make of her ""I
still know how to pee"" remark? Seems to me maybe Dawn
will actually keep it together more than we have been led to believe.
It would be an interesting reversal if *she* were the one to help
Buffy in the end."
still know how to pee"" remark***
I took that remark to mean that she didn't need to be treated
like a child anymore - like she has felt she has been treated
by Buffy and most of the gang for as long as she can remember.
Something a typical 14-year-old would say. Sort of an automatic
response to an offer of assistance."
of an automatic response to an offer of assistance.
Hmmm. I know I'm reading too much into it:) but it sounded like
she used a put-on typical Dawn response to manipulate the situation
(I don't mean manipulate in a negative sense just in a premeditated
sense) so she could get what she wanted which was to see her mother's
body. I love that despite having her concern re: the body dismissed
by Buffy she was still determined to go to the morgue.
I'll say one thing she certainly has a mind of her own. I'm liking
her better all the time.
""isn't real"" she lost that framework on
Now the mother who was her anchor is gone.
But Dawn ""still knows how to pee"". I saw
that as more of a statement that there still is something left
she hasn't totally totally faded away. Dawn was trying to hold
on to some piece of reality some facet some information that she
has that is true.
Practically everything Dawn has ever counted on as ""true""
such as my life is my life my mother will always be there for
me practically everything she ever believed in about herself the
world around her about reality have been declared a lie. Practically
everything she has believed - wrong. Taken from her. She must
wonder what will be taken from her next. What is left to take?
I thought she was trying to convince herself more than anyone
else with that statement. ""I can still pee""
(at least that much I can count on to be ""real"".
A piece of reality that will not just disappear. Not much but
at least something.)
I see Dawn in much danger. Not from Glory but herself. I believe
that she will start to wonder that with the pain is it really
worth being ""real"" being a sentient being.
Being a human with all the pain that goes with it. Would she be
better off being Glory's ""key"". Do ""keys""
feel any pain?
It will be up to Buffy to convince Dawn that it is worth being
human. ""Keys"" might not feel any pain but
nor do they feel any joy. Have any friends. Keys can't love and
be loved. And most of all ""keys"" can't be
Buffy sister. And more than anything right now that is what Buffy
needs right now not some mystical power key from some other dimension
but her ""little sister"" (terk-jerking crying
I believe that is the way that Dawn will help Buffy in the end.
Perhaps Dawn in stronger than I think and not suicidal. But when
practically everything has been taken from you like it has for
Dawn your whole framework and perceptions of reality destroyed
(at least we can count on the fact we are ""real""
that our memories actually happened we are who we think we are)
how can one be strong?
Also from what we have been told about Dawn (the memories might
not be real but for practical purposes they do give insight's
into Dawn's personality) Dawn isn't the ""keep it together""
type. The way we were told she acted when her mother and father
got a divorce kind of foreshadows that.
""While on the subject of Dawn what do you guys make
of her ""I still know how to pee"" remark?
Seems to me maybe Dawn will actually keep it together more than
we have been led to believe. It would be an interesting reversal
if *she* were the one to help Buffy in the end. ""
"It all comes down
to the fact that this message board doesn't have a lovely purple
and yellow background;) that announces that I'm surfing.
Skip the garish frame and go straight to the text: http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts/season5.html
If you hit the main page of that site (or most any other with
frames) you can point at a link that opens in one of the frames
and (Win: right-click Mac: hold the button down ) and choose (IE:
Open Link in New Window Netscape: New Window with Link) then close
the original window.
""I mean if I had to see dead people then I want to
*see* dead people:)""
Oooh. Thanks for the
remark that she can pee by herself...
I can't take the credit because I read it somewhere else and don't
remember who said it... but that person pointed out that it could
well be put in parallel with Xander's line in ""Restless""
when he says that he has to pee. Buffy asks him if he needs help
and he answers that he's got a system.(hmmm... interesting!)
Another ""Restless"" bit would be Xander's
arm stuck between two walls... Joyce was stuck between walls in
Anya make some comment like ""Xander's decided he blames
Does sound like a *Restless* tie-in to me!"
Yes it does doesn't it? (But no mahjongg and mice
I had made the connection
about the wall (barrier dimension death obstacle) but not about
the peeing... Interesting.
What you suggest seems to corroborate those old rumours that said
that Xander and Dawn were connected in some way. This is just
me personal feeling but I really hope Xander doesn't acquire any
special skills. What makes him special (and I'm not a big X fan)
is the fact that he doesn't *have* any paranormal connection.
One more question. What did you guys think of both Xander and
Tara kissing Willow's forehead? It seemed almost like a reverent
act (religious even) but it also got me to thinking and feeling
nervous about Willow's residual headaches and about how those
kisses might shed light on Willow's spirit-head sunking fate in
"I just did a
Buffy Marathon on Tuesday night watching 6 episodes from season
3. I was wondering how to bring the topic to this board but I
might just have found the good thread!
Something caught my attention in Graduation part 2. Buffy says
to Xander:""You're the key"" and she says
that a few times. Xander is all proud of that. When we know that
JW already had planned season 5 ahead... it must have meant something
more than being a key for the final battle.
Another bit from the same episode caught my attention. The mayor
becomes a snake. Dawn can be recognized by snakes and dogs...
had the mayor ascension anything to do with Glory? Why JW would
come back with a snake when he already used it as part of a season
I just shoot those questions... feel free to think about them.
I still feel that I don't have enough knowledge about the details
of the show to get an explanation for those! :)"
There's lots of fun in looking at several Bufffy
episodes in a row. I watched several from season three and was
surprised how many times Willow is told to be careful about her
magic how she could hurt herself or the spells could get out of
Zander as a key could be a forshadowing that something he does
triggers the key in Dawn.
to burst you bubble on the snake theory Nina but Joss has used
the snake image numerous times. In addition to the mayor in Graduation
2 and the snake in Shadow in Reptile Boy the demon Machida was
a snake and Laconis the baby eating demon in Band Candy was a
snake. Technically the demon that comes out of the Hellmouth first
is more octopuss-like but it's tentacles are very snake-ish. So
I don't think using Glory's use of snakes is particularly significant.
But Buffy referring to Xandar as the key that could mean nothing.
Or it could mean a lot.
Marya... I seem to loose my head these days! :)
| More March 2001