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Sadness of it all. (spoilers for TTG/Grave) -- The Second Evil, 20:27:28 05/21/02 Tue

While normally I might say, at this point, someone shoot Marti Noxon and put her out of our misery, I'm surprised to find myself thanking Fury for coming up with a major kickass finale. So he isn't Joss, and never will be, but he's a sufficient substitute given that Joss wasn't able to make it here this evening. But anyway...

To give you some backstory, this is what flashed through my head when Willow fed her craving via Giles' energies (and borrowed energies as well). She sits back, clearly in the vapor-trail induced camera effects, and says somewhat inaudibly, "who's your supplier?"

Granted, it wasn't until the final moments that my suspicions were confirmed (more about that in a bit), but my first reaction was that all along, we've seen that Tara operates from a different "power base," so to speak, than Willow. Giles, I've always suspected, is more like Tara in terms of his base - something grounded, respecting the magic, rooted in understanding of and caring for humanity. Willow's running on different fuel, so naturally her reaction to Giles' energies intrigued me greatly. Remember, after she chomped on Rack, she took on his veiny face... so what was she taking on, from Giles, that would really blow her mind like that? Ah, right, that powerful coven from Devon. Uh, hmm.

And as I registered what she said, I recalled way back in my crazy youthful days when I did more than a few questionable substances myself. Now, let's ignore the fact that a certain drug, which I shall call THD ("the happy drug") to protect tender eyes, has some serious side-effects and after-effects that make it hardly worth using, even if the primary effect is blissfully remindful of the first moments of true love. I was at a going-away party for someone - a regular user of THD, I might add - and he was getting a sandwich hug from several friends. Delighted, he announced that getting such affection from friends was causing a "flashback to being on [THD]."

Instead of finding this sweet, it caused me a sudden sadness. The point of such substance was not, originally, to make all happiness feel like the drug, but instead to mimic the actual feeling of happiness. In other words, under the effects of THD, the intention of the drug's creators was that one would say, "wow, this is just like the first time I fell in love!" ... but to see someone mistake actual, deep love amongst friends as an aftereffect of a drug? ...Sad.

And that's what flashed through my head when Willow said that line, asking Giles rhetorically who his supplier was. Life, love, humanity, the world - the same supplier Tara had. It was Willow's unfamiliarity, it seemed to me (in that momentary realization) that would be at the heart of her inability to conquer or shut out that type of magic, Tara's and Giles' magics. And then I also remembered after Tara and Willow reconciled:

Mmm. I forgot how good this could feel. Us. Together.
(a bit guiltily)
Without the magic.

There was plenty of magic, Will.
At the time, I thought, ah, magic: the way it feels, when newly in love, that the whole world is afire, that something special is happening - the kind of "magic" we associate with the moment between making the wish and the wish coming true before our eyes, granted by a fairy godmother. But looking at Tara's comment (besides which, knowing that Joss' crew uses words & phrases for a reason), it seems to me that perhaps Tara was right - the magic was always there, but Willow was just ignorant of it. Too busy noticing the sound and fury, she didn't realize that it signified nothing, and that perhaps the human magic is the only kind with real lasting power.

So, in the end, I suppose the drug metaphor - while heavy- handed through much of the season - finally gave me an insight to Willow's perspective, and knowing that tipped me off as to what exactly would be required to stop the insanity. I could say a lot more here, but even version sounds awfully corny compared to the actual storyline. In the end, of all the lines uttered in this evening's double header, that single line remains the most bittersweet, for me. Almost two years of being with Tara, and only now did Willow learn the lesson Tara was trying to teach.

[> Re: Sadness of it all. (spoilers for TTG/Grave) -- DEN, 20:39:24 05/21/02 Tue

Thanks for saying what I couldn't quite find words for. And no, it's damn well not corny!

[> [> Beautiful... Gotta love the love... -- -dancing happy dance, 20:46:57 05/21/02 Tue

[> Re: Sadness of it all. (spoilers for TTG/Grave) -- Rahael, 20:59:21 05/21/02 Tue

Great post. I really loved the two eps. I thought it really picked up the whole season and dealt with a lot of issues.

I can't wait for Season 7! Especially to see where Willow's story takes her.

I liked the Spike scenes. It makes complete sense that his grand plan would get absolutely buggered up.

Not too much coherent thoughts, but looks like I will be rewatching Season 6 again, many times. The finale just made the whole thing a lot tighter, and more compelling, imo.

[> [> ATLtS, of course! ;-) -- The Second Evil, 21:10:20 05/21/02 Tue

Yeah, sure, mention Spike! Heh... but:

I liked the Spike scenes. It makes complete sense that his grand plan would get absolutely buggered up.

Agreed - this is Spike we're writing of, after all, with a fine tradition to uphold - has he ever had a grand scheme that didn't get absolutely buggered up? ;-)

[> [> [> Re: ATLtS, of course! ;-) -- Rahael, 21:19:09 05/21/02 Tue

Yeah...sorry! That final scene almost stirred me out of neutrality of the Spike debate. Almost, but not quite.

I can see the continuous thread after thread over the summer. Now, that's far more scary than Darth Rosenburg.

[> [> [> [> Spike in "Grave" (spoilers) -- Rob, 22:00:37 05/21/02 Tue

And, interestingly, what happens to Spike again illustrates that in the Buffyverse, wishes never turn out the way they're meant to...and many times, as I posted before, it's due to lack of specificity with words. Spike said he wanted to be restored to "the way he was before"...and that's exactly what he got.

I cannot wait to see what a souled Spike will be like...Will he be William? Will he have any vamp memories? Will he still love Buffy? Will he be the same creature, or character, at all? And will Halfrek/Cecily fit in some how?


[> [> [> [> [> maybe not so much buggered up -- yuri, 22:46:15 05/21/02 Tue

as it was an insight in to what spike really wanted. The green eyed dude interpreted spike's wish in what could be construed as a "hah, I screwed you over" kind of way, or instead a "I know what you are truly asking for" kind of way. I mean, same difference, really, but I think spike did get what he desired.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, yuri -- Tillow, 05:46:39 05/22/02 Wed

I think the demon knew what he really wanted. His last statement is the most clear. "Give me what I want. Make me what I was so the slayer can get what she deserves."

Haven't the writers always said she'll never want Spike as long as he's "an evil thing with a chip in his head?" Well, he has a soul now. No more evil.

There are still a million questions about how the soul will affect Spike's feelings for her. I suspect he will feel the most remorse over the most recent attempted rape.

Man, a Spike with William's soul. The thought makes me shiver; he's sensitive enough without a soul. Yikes. I have a feeling he won't be all stoic and broody like Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree, yuri -- ponygirl, 07:49:49 05/22/02 Wed

I never took the return of Spike's soul as anything other than what he was asking for all along. The writers were being sneaky by never having Spike specify what he was requesting, so there'd be some suspense. I took Spike's tone in making his requests in Two to Go and Seeing Red to be anger at himself, the situation, and the typical Spike snarkiness, by the end of Grave though it came out more like a plea. What he was doing, what he had endured had been out of love. I personally was betting on him being made human but the soul thing will definitely be interesting.

[> Re: Sadness of it all. (spoilers for TTG/Grave) -- yuri, 22:56:36 05/21/02 Tue

I've had exactly the same experience (I can only guess that we speak of the same THD), and I think the sadness you felt from it is the natural reaction to anyone who notices... It's heartbraking. I felt that same thing at Willow's line, but I couldn't connect it until I read your post. Whoo. Thanks. Gotta sit for a minute.

[> Nothing bittersweet about the appreciation for your post -- ponygirl, 08:03:02 05/22/02 Wed

It was indeed a very sad moment for Willow to finally move beyond her own insular pain and first couch the experience in drug references and then become so overwhelmed with the pain of the world that she seeks to destroy it. That and your post made me appreciate the drug metaphor for the first time this year.

[> Re: Sadness of it all. (spoilers for TTG/Grave) -- dream of the consortium, 09:13:04 05/22/02 Wed

Yes, and yes, and yes. There had been an air of after- school special about the magic as drug metaphor, but this episode was something else. They got deep into the reasons for addiction, showed that the "magic is power" people and the "magic is addiction" people both had it right. I really feel for Willow, relate to her more than any character on any tv show or movie. She can't forgive herself for not being more, so she takes more when she can find it. She doesn't want Xander to love her, any more than Buffy wanted Tara to forgive her. But love and forgiveness are gift you just get, whether you want them or not, whether you believe you deserve them or not.

Thoghts on Magic in the Buffyverse -- Corwin of Amber, 20:40:49 05/21/02 Tue

I never did like the magic as a drug metaphor. I'm liking the idea that magic can be passed around like a joint less. It seems to me that, for magic to work as it does in the Buffyverse, you would have to tap into something outside of yourself...your body basically becomes a conduit as your mind controls and shapes the energy into what you desire. That would make a LOT of sense in the case of Willow...ever since she started dealing with the dark magics, it was more and more like something outside of her was taking control.
It would also explain calling on Osirus and other deities for magical aid. Of course, thats an entirely different story from the one ME wanted to tell, so we get magic that can somehow be sucked out of people, and witches that 'recharge' or refuel would probably be the better description. So being a talented witch amounts to nothing more than having a bigger resevoir for magic.

[> Re: Thoghts on Magic in the Buffyverse -- Egyptophile, 01:16:17 05/22/02 Wed

I disagree.

I tend to see magick portrayed in the way that magick in The Craft was portrayed. Magick as a neutral thing. It can be used to do good and it can be used to do bad. It can empower or it can corrupt. It depends on where you "take" the magick inside you.

Willow had always been picked on, she was always the victim, she was (in her own words) a loser. She turned to academics to compensate for her lack of social skills and her insecurities. She learned magick to better herself and to make things easier for herself (as we have seen her use her magicks for menial tasks) and eventually she used magick to deal with her problems. Willow took the magicks to a dark place within herself and it grew inside her breeding within the darkest depths of her psyche/soul. So, I believe that magick in the Buffyverse, is neutral thing whose good/bad, light/dark, ect associations are due to intent and use.

Now, the logical reaction could be: "Well, what about the fact that texts such as Darkest Magicks are made for the dark?" Well, what have been the times that we have seen dark magicks used? We have seen Willow use dark magicks when she was hurting (as in the case of Tara being shot and brain- sucked by Glory). Perhaps these dark magicks can only be used if you have the right mental/emotional state? If you are in pain, are in hurt, or are on a vengeance-trip.

Pertaining to your last comments about the ability of witches, I do not think that is the case either. I think that the power of the witch, at least when she/he is on a dark path as Willow invoking dark magicks beyond human comprehension, is dependent on their emotional/mental state. The emotion/mentality is the fuel for sustaining such magicks and perhaps even producing the energy for those magicks. If we take into consideration when we first saw Willow lose her "fuel" to sustain her magicks, what did she look like? How was her personality? She was quite docile and mundane compared to how she had acted just the scene before with her in it; she was emotionally drained. Until she extracted the very human life force that Rack possessed. Then the next time she claims she's drained she sucks the magicks out of Giles and what is the first thing she notes? Well, first it's the sheer power and then the emotion. All that emotion she was flooded with. She was "connected", she was feeling everything more than hate, fury, and vengeance.

I don't think I made my case as well I had in my head.

[> Read Second Evil's post just below this... (spoilers) -- Scroll, 07:21:18 05/22/02 Wed

I think The Second Evil has really drawn a good parallel between drugs/addiction and Willow's magick. Best part of this parallel is how real happiness and natural magick (the kind Tara, Giles, and that witch coven uses) is something Willow really has no comprehension of. That's what Buffy says when she says Willow doesn't know what a Slayer is. Willow cannot grasp the concept of love so encompassing that it doesn't matter if you're captain of the nerd squad or a warlock about to destroy the world. You'll still be loved. But Xander got it. Boy did he get it!

As God as my witness, I will never read spoilers agai (but I will put them in my post lol) -- The Last Jack, 21:02:01 05/21/02 Tue

[Willow stands over a beaten Buffy, boasting about how no one can stop her. Suddenly, an energy blast hits her from behind, knocking her down, hurting her. Is it Rack, looking for revenge? Is it Anya? Jonathan? No, its Giles!!!]

I swear, when it went to the commercial, I cried out in disbelief! I had no idea the great Tony Head was returning for the season finale. I thought maybe the ghost of Tara or something was the suprise guest star who would turn Willow around (okay, Xander helped lol), but I was not expecting that. I wasn't paying attention to the guest star credits. Was he on there?

Afer reading spoilers for ever episode this season, my interest in the show was starting to wane. But now having watched it spoiler free (my webtv wouldn't connect me to the spoiler links), I am a changed man. I am going to enjoy Buffy like I used to, before I found aint it cool, and discovered every plot point there was.

My name is Jack, and I am a spoilerholic. But I want to get better. Anyone want to join me? LOL ;)

[> I suddenly got a visual of ... -- Solitude1056, 21:16:35 05/21/02 Tue

...the Last Jack (TM) shouting this courageously while wearing a hoopskirt and brandishing a copy of the wildfeed on videotape, as the sun sets in the background, silouhetting the soundstage against the California sky.

Yikes. That was frightening.


[> Re: As God as my witness, I will never read spoilers agai (but I will put them in my post lol) -- Jane's Addiction, 21:46:09 05/21/02 Tue

Nope. The great ASH was not listed as a guest star in the opening credits - apparently they really were aiming for those cries of (happy) disbelief.

I have to say, I too went into the finale unspoiled (for about the first time this season), and I now renounce spoilers forever! (Or until somebody e-mails me something that I just can't stop myself from reading. Recovery can be a slow and painful process.) Honestly, I question whether more than 5-10 percent of viewers really pay much attention to spoilers. Still, I'm sure Joss must be doing his happy Snoopy dance somewhere if he's seeing comments such as these.

By the way, I'm sure the hoopskirt is very becoming;)
Sorry, just feeling a little giddy with the post-near- apocalypsal, non-suicidal Scooby gang season finale.

[> [> I agree also... -- Rob, 22:10:23 05/21/02 Tue

I started being spoiled somewhere around mid-fifth season and discovered that the impact of huge events was just not quite as impacty when I knew everything in advance. The first one I ever read was for "The Body," two weeks before it aired, thus taking away the shock I should have had about the unexpected death. I swore them off completely about midway through this season, after being sick of having my "Buffy" "oooh" moments turning into "oh, I knew that was going to happen"s...and I now vow to never read another spoiler again. Ever.

Spoiler-free is the way to be.*


*except for TV promos; those are okay, since they tease and mislead, making the wait for the next ep all the worse

[> [> [> No promos either. -- Maroon Lagoon, 02:39:02 05/22/02 Wed

I've always watched the promos, but I'm going to try the experiment of not watching them for s7/4 and see if it feels any different.

When Riley shows up out of the blue, I want to have the same reaction as Buffy: "Huh?"

When the bolt hit Willow from out of frame, my only guess was that it was Amy, but when we saw it was Giles, I was cheering! Spoiler people must lead dreary little existences.

[> [> [> [> Re: No promos either. -- A.C.S., 07:11:59 05/22/02 Wed

The whole time, I was thinking to myself -- Giles has GOT to show up for this. I was cursing the continuity gods for letting formerly important characters be forgotten. And then when he appeared - YAY! I actually said "yay!" I don't think I've ever actually said that word out loud before.

[> [> [> [> [> Me too...along with much clappage. -- Rob, 11:20:05 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> [> Spoiler-free is the way to be! (spoilers->S6) -- lunarchickk, 07:34:41 05/22/02 Wed

Rob, I'm right there with ya. I was starting to get spoiled around Riley's return, and knew too much about the wedding, and *hated it*. Knew that Tara died and Spike went to Africa -- and *hated* knowing. Was spoiler-free for last night and *screamed* when Giles showed up. :)

I've debated not watching the promos, as Maroon Lagoon says below, but usually the damage comes more from analyzing the promos frame-by-frame than just watching them... so maybe I'll try and refrain from that next year. (Except it's so fun!)

Some people won't even read interviews with cast & crew for fear of spoilers... I'll read what they have to say (they won't ever give away anything concrete anyway! ...well, except that Marti interview that gave away Spike's chip not working on Buffy *sigh*) but I'm also staying away from TV Guide -- they give away way too much in their descriptions. :)

[> [> YES! Let the Unspoiled unite!!!! -- MayaPapaya9, 22:14:14 05/21/02 Tue

[> [> [> Amen, brother :) -- Traveler, 10:39:39 05/22/02 Wed

[> Re: As God as my witness, I will never read spoilers agai (but I will put them in my post lol) -- Robert, 22:19:14 05/21/02 Tue

>> "My name is Jack, and I am a spoilerholic. But I want to get better. Anyone want to join me?"

Just take it one day at a time.

[> ash was in the closing credits -- anom, 22:37:39 05/21/02 Tue

[> [> Re: ash was in the closing credits -- Egyptophile, 03:25:48 05/22/02 Wed

For those of us who have been unspoiled since Season 1, where *do* you find spoilers? I went to and the spoilers I found on Buffy and Angel were only slightly better than TV guide.

[> [> [> Click on the words Spoiler Trollop Board at the top of this page. But, don't say we didn't warn you. -- CW, 05:54:15 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> For Spoilers, articles, news inside to my site -- Rufus, 16:05:03 05/22/02 Wed

Con versebuffyverse

I don't post spoiler news or Wildfeeds on the Trollup Board anymore cause I just don't have the time. All the stuff I used to do on the Trollup board I moved to my own Yahoo Group because I liked how they archive things.

[> Re: As God as my witness, I will never read spoilers agai (but I will put them in my post lol) -- verdantheart, 06:32:55 05/22/02 Wed

As an unspoiled one, I still kinda expected to see Giles at the other end of that blast of energy (chalk it up to excessive movie/TV-watching) -- but I still loved it. I prefer not to see the story ahead of time, though. Good luck with your recovery from spoilerholism!

[> Re: As God as my witness, I will never read spoilers again (but I will put them in my post lol) -- clg0107, 15:03:58 05/22/02 Wed

I was desperate for a Buffy fix in the December break, and so allowed myself to be spoiled for the entire middle part of the season...and was so sorry that I did. It wasn't nearly as fun for me.

I am now unspoiled and plan to remain so, and I LOVE it! Except, can I please just fast forward to September to find out what comes next??????


Silly question re:Buffy Seaon Finale and AotC (spoilers for both) -- DaveW, 21:13:54 05/21/02 Tue

Did anybody else get exactly the same thrill from seeing Giles appear as they got from seeing Yoda whip out a lightsaber? Man, my hair was on end both times. Hell of a week for entertainment.

[> Great analogy...and yes! -- Rob, 21:41:14 05/21/02 Tue

[> Hadn't thought of that, but yeah--good analogy! -- trap, 22:21:27 05/21/02 Tue

[> Haven't seen movie yet, but YES! -- Eric, 22:27:24 05/21/02 Tue

[> Re: Silly question re:Buffy Seaon Finale and AotC (spoilers for both) -- luvthistle1, 02:43:38 05/22/02 Wed

YES!Yes! Yes! I love when Giles came in and Stop Willow. Yeah! Giles. He always know the right thing to do.

I missed him this season. it was good to see him back.

The Prayer of St a Carpenter can save the world.. -- Rufus, 22:38:37 05/21/02 Tue

Last year we saw Buffy jump into a portal, dying to save the world she wanted her friends and sister to continue to live in. In the season premiere we saw Buffy claw her way out of the ground, summoned by magic, summoned back to a world she could only see as hell. Buffy was back to a world she could only see as half empty. Her friends, her calling, her sister, just spectres in a troubling nightmare she could no longer connect to. With this dark spell the seeds of chaos were born. Willow became addicted to the magic she originally thought would bring so much to the world. Willow became lost in her own hell, one that contained the vision of Willow a perpetual loser.

Xander, the man who seemed to have so much, began to self destruct, not because of external demons, but the ones created out of his self doubt. He left a devastated Anya at the alter, leaving her to go back to what she thought Xander could only see her seek solace in vengeance.

Tara was a light that represented the potential for love and compassion, the quality that kept everyone together. In Seeing Red that all ended......light, compassion, love....was struck dead by human hands.

Willow saw red, saw only despair, no love, comfort, only vengeance could she see, forgetting her mate in her fury. In Two to Go, Willow spent most of her time chasing the remaining members of the Troika, Warren, their leader dead by her power. Power met power, slayer fought witch, tried to reason Willow back to the world that even she had rejected in the arms of a vampire could she only feel alive. Everyone felt the despair of loss, Willow, Anya, Buffy, Dawn. Xander felt his powerlessness the most.....he couldn't even stop a man with a gun....couldn't protect his friends.....became lost in self pity. Then Giles returned...

Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace.
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
where there is injury...pardon
where there is
where there is despair...hope
where there is darkness...light
Where there is

Giles came back to help Willow, infused with power from a powerful coven....they told him about Tara and sent him to save the world from the darkness that had become incarnate in Willow. Willow was able to beat Buffy, Anya, took the power from Giles...the power that was a gift from the coven that represented Tara, represented light and balance.

O Divine Master grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

Anya was sent to the underground tunnel that Buffy and Dawn were trapped in.....Xander on the surface listening to the message a dying Giles sent to them. A message not meant for Buffy....and Xander understood that he had a place in this whole mess and that was to go to his childhood friend.

It may seem like an anvil, silly, but it was that spark of humanity that was again that extra that saved the world. Glory was infected with Ben's humanity in season five, and Willow was reached by the power of the coven finding the spark of humanity, the only part of Willow who could want to hear the words of her friend...the carpenter.

Anya: Something else that Giles said. "No magic or supernatural force can stop her."

Xander understood he had a place in the apocalypse that Willow had started....he stepped in front of the force that could destroy the world...this simple carpenter....the first friend that Willow can remember..

Willow: Is this the Master Plan? You're gonna stop telling me you love me?

Xander: Well, I was gonna walk you off a cliff and hand you an anvil, but it seemed kind of cartoony.

Willow: Still making jokes.

Xander: I'm not joking..I know you're in pain. I can't imagine the pain you're in.

Yeah, I love you
I love crayon-breaky Willow, and I love scary-veiny Willow.
So, if I'm going out, it's here.
If you want to kill the world...well, then start with me.
I've earned that.

With the combined essence of magic, the kind of magic that Tara represented, and the love of a friend, Willow surfaced, the magic drained out of her....her hair back to red.......her tears only beginning. It wasn't power, the thing that Willow had thought was so important, but her connection with love, her friend, that brought balance back.

For it is in giving that we receive
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
And it is in dying that we are reborn

As these words were sung, Buffy clawed her way out of a second grave, grateful to be alive, Xander was holding his sobbing friend who could finally begin to grieve. And then in a year that everyone has fought their way to adulthood and life....there was Spike...

Demon: You have endured the required trials.

Spike: You bloody right I have.
So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was so Buffy can get what she deserves.

Demon: Very well.....your soul is returned to you.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

[> Link to the song in the finale -- Rufus, 22:48:40 05/21/02 Tue

The prayer of St Francis

[> [> Wow - How Spike/ Angel/Also Fear Itself portions compare (Spoilers!) -- shadowkat, 07:23:18 05/22/02 Wed

Thanks for that!

Been thinking about Spike's trials and how they compare to the others. Also Angel's season finale. And finally Fear Itself.

1. First Spike fights a man with fire for hands - in the finale,
Xander is standing up to Willow who shoots energy out of her hands. Stand up to the fire of vengeance and send out
love - pardon. (Fear Itself - Xander must stop running and being afraid no one notices him and stand up - otherwise he is invisible - but only because he let's himself be...this doesn't fit Spike's trial perfectly but it does fit his confrontation with Willow at the end) In Angel - Connor fails at this and
encases Angel, Wesely also fails finding himself all alone.
Angel grants pardon but it is too late and to the wrong person and hence falls on death ears.

2. Second Spike cuts off the demons heads and fights several.
(We don't see them - off screen) But this test is similar to Buffy's and Dawn's fighting of the graveyard demons together. Defeat the slaying power of grief and self- defeat
that attacks us from the ground. (Another parallel is Fear Itself - when Buffy is fighting the corpses rising from the ground.)Connor burns Holtz and Buries Angel at Seas - unable
to defeat his grief.

3. Spike has to fight the scarab beetles which are beetles that invade dead skin and take you over like parasites which eat you alive from inside. Similar metaphor to what the magic is doing to Willow, eating her from the inside, like a parasitic force she must fight. Defeat the demons
without and within - deal with your rage, don't let it devore you with hate until there's nothing left.
This is similar to Willow's nightmare in Fear Itself - she loses control of the searcher lights she created and they threaten to devor her like little bugs.

Cordelia in Angel is taken over by her white light but calmly accepts it and trancends? OR does she? Has she also given in to the magic?

It appears while all the characters in Btvs succeeded in the end - all the characters in Ats did not. Odd, since up to now Ats' characters seemed more together and Btvs seemed
to be falling apart. They flipped them. I may be reaching on the Angel comparisons.

Also interesting that they paralleled Spike's trials with
Buffy/Willow/Xander's last struggles and in the end all were

Final parallel to Fear Itself - Giles and Anya are separate
from the nightmares - and come in at the end, Giles more
or less aiding to save the day.

[> [> [> Re: Wow - How Spike/ Angel/Also Fear Itself portions compare (Spoilers!) -- dream of the consortium, 08:13:42 05/22/02 Wed

I liked the part of the first trial in which Spike grabbed hold of the hands o' fire, only to let go and say something like "Bad move, bad move." It fit in beautifully with the fire/ice theme this season. Spike still thinks he can grab hold of pure fire (think of the speech about love in the bathroom scene), but he's learning....

[> Wowzers! (Also spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:54:53 05/21/02 Tue

Wow. That was an amazing post. And the interspersing of St. Francis' prayer really hits home the message of the finale. I especially like the parallel of the coven that gives Giles magick with Tara whose magick is also loving and natural. In the beginning of S6, when Giles first leaves, he passes on the mantle of mentor and guide to Tara. Now that Tara is dead, he returns to take up that mantle (at least for a little while). Tara's compassion and forgiveness are exactly the weapons Giles uses to fight Willow, not just magick, and they are the keys to Willow's humanity when Xander confronts her on the hill.

I'm just in awe of ME. I didn't think anything could match Buffy's sacrifice last season, but Xander's plain-old human loving heart is definitely on par. His dogged-determined- stubborn-joking speech to Willow was Xander/Heart all the way. You really gotta love it when he goes with his strengths. Yay Xander! Go carpenters of the world!

[> Spoilers for 22GO and The Grave (I love this show); just trying to squeeze this in -- JBone, 23:03:03 05/21/02 Tue

Darth Rosenberg ridicules all the SG during her dark wiccan magic spree, except for Spike and Anya. Or maybe Anya was off-screen. But she absolutely tears down Buffy, Giles, Dawn, and Xander. She's quite effective with Buffy and Dawn, and to a lesser extent Giles. But Xander takes the criticism.

I loved how Giles cracked up at Buffy's spilling her guts of the season's happenings. Everything she couldn't tell her friends just came out, and he cracked up. It's not the worst reaction that bad stuff ever had on the show.

Remember how Cordelia gave Conner an aura-colonic, it seems that Xander has done the same for Willow. As much as I like last episode having Xander at Buffy's side, Xander holding onto Willow at the end of this episode was priceless.

I was hoping I could make a neat tie-in back to OMWF about Tara and Anya being Buffy's backup. I can't do that without a lot of thinking stuff, so, I'm happy about Anya's MVP status at the end of this season. And Giles has been sorely missed as well. On another topic, I believed that the only place that Wesley could be taking Connor when he got ambushed by Justine was Sunnydale. Who other than the slayer could protect him from Angel and whoever else would there be?

Mostly I'm glad that summer is here, and I don't have to plan all my time around these god damn tv shows anymore. I love this show, I don't miss an episode of BtVS or AtS (well one this year), but I have a ton of stuff I need to get to. I'll keep lurking after the hubbub of this week dies down, but I need the "me" time.

I'd throw in my two cents about Spike, but I know that will probably be the only thing talked about all summer long. Since nothing else happened on the show this year. Don't get me wrong. Spike getting his soul back is a big plot point, I just doubt that it's worthy of the volume of text that will be devoted to it, at least initially. Especially since it was since a minor point at the end of the season.

[> I forgot to say my original post was full of spoilers.....bad me.;) -- Rufus, 23:29:52 05/21/02 Tue

[> [> Re: I forgot to say my original post was full of spoilers.....bad me.;) -- mucifer, 06:52:20 05/22/02 Wed

Actually, you put major spoilers in the thread heading which would have really bothered me if I hadnt seen the episode. But, I guess things get a bit sloppier once the show has been aired in the USA.

[> Anyone else notice this?? -- neaux, 04:53:03 05/22/02 Wed

When Xander hit his head on the Cemetary Stone..

did that stone say ROSENBURG?

I clearly saw R-O-S-E-N but didnt see the rest of it.

anyone catch the whole name?

[> Lovely post to start the day! -- ponygirl, 06:31:35 05/22/02 Wed

I'm sure it's going to be a busy day on the board, but this was a great post for me to dive in with. Thanks Rufus, and thanks for the song link. For me I found Xander's confrontation with Willow so moving because of its simplicity. No other message than "I love you", because ultimately what else is there for anyone to offer finally to another person in pain?

[> *sniffle* That was very nice. -- Tillow, 07:37:33 05/22/02 Wed

[> The song -- dream of the consortium, 10:10:11 05/22/02 Wed

I hate to admit it - it makes me sound soooo cynical - but the song really ruined the entire episode for me. I grew up very Catholic, and as a child was made to sing that prayer at the "children's mass" every Sunday, as well as during occasional school services. For some reason, the words are considered exceptionally appropriate for children, although the sentiment is, like most wisdom, very complex as well as very simple. I know that it's appropriate, I just can't hear it fresh. It was like they had picked "It's a Small World" or something.


[> [> Re: The song and why it didn't bother me -- Rufus, 15:59:39 05/22/02 Wed

I never had heard the song or the prayer before last night. I just went by the lyrics and I don't have any baggage regarding it's origins. So, I liked it.

[> Thank you, I needed that! -- Robert, 10:33:14 05/22/02 Wed

With all the rancor currently on the board, I needed this posting.

[> Carpenters, Lions, Cennobites, Spoilers for TtG and Grave -- fresne, 07:01:23 05/23/02 Thu

This seems to go here, so here it will go.

Sometimes I love the synchronicity of FX. Wednesday, they played Restless. It was a nice way to reflect on how everything is relevant to my favorite finale. And yes I loved S6, I loved the S6 finale, but all roads, paths, goat trails, are well trodden on their way to Restless.

Okay, I don't have anything really profound to say here in a long essayish sort of way. Just thoughts.

I have missed the Buffy who wants to be a fireman when the floods role back. The spontaneous laughter when Giles attempts to hypnotize here. However, I don't think she lost it when she died. I see it draining out of her all S5. Duty. Duty. Duty.

What a precious gift was Giles accepting laughter as Buffy listed her woes in Grave. It was possibly the best response he could have given. Of all her friends, he had to be the one she was the most concerned about telling her "deep dark secrets." He didn't scold, he didn't lecture. He laughed, because sometimes when the Greek (Babylonian, Sumerian, insert Cthonic here) gods of tragedy keep laying it on, you have to laugh.

And not in a dissing kind of way, that's the way a soul colonic should look. People who have known each other for years, who are so very, very happy to see each other, laughing because sometimes the world is just too ridiculous.

Or for that matter, Xander's moment of unconditional love on the cliff. Holding Willow as she keened her grief. As the dark magics purged and melted away. What an incredible visual.

Which brings us back to Restless. Willow's book report was on The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. It has many themes, which she never gets to tell us about before the First Slayer inhales her breath, her Spiritus. Who knows if she ever let it sink in anyway? However, in a memories from childhood sort of way, it is the story of four children. Of a magic land under the sway of winter. There's an evil witch, but she's beautiful, cold, doesn't understand love. One of the children, Edmund, betrays, someone, I forget who and how, for some magic chocolates, and because he really is a horrid little boy. However, he is forgiven. And the lion, who died for his sins, lives again because of rules older than the witches' cold winter magic. And springtime returns. And because Edmund has fallen and been picked up again, he becomes Edmund the Just and understands that people aren't always perfect.

Yes, yes, as someone might complain (perhaps Willow) it is terribly Christian. So, as Rufus pointed out is a carpenter offering unconditional love. But since, it's already been ably covered above, I'll move along.

In Restless, Willow's "costume" was peeled away to reveal the person that she feared people to see. The crayon breaky Willow. And everyone laughed. I'm sure that Willow doesn't hate herself all the time, but in a moment of absolute grief, how easy to hate yourself and forget that people still love you. To not want to be human (you humans), to not want to be Willow (all that third person), to want to be the Slayer (it's about the power), and hurting everyone around you because you hurt so very much.

For a bit, although I don't want to stretch the point, I want Giles to be Aslan. Offering his life, which carries the healing magic that allows Willow to hear Xander.

And what's so funny about the Cennobite (Jesus Wept) comparison from last week, (Spoilers for Hellraiser II) is that Kirsty (the main character) manages to emotionally reach the Cennobites by reminding them that they were once human. And their powers get stripped away, to reveal their true selves.

And in a rambly sort of way, I love a season that begins with Buffy clawing her way out of a grave, her vision impaired, emotionally disconnected, it's night time, everything is burning, the world is turning towards winter. Then at season's end, she can see Dawn now, they crawl out of a grave together, she doesn't go to Spike's place, the world is turning towards spring. Her laughter with Giles purged her. Her tears that the world hadn't ended, that she hadn't died "again," that the world really is an okay place; they renewed her as tears sometimes do. And that final hug.

Everyone was hugging at the end. Willow and Xander. Buffy and Dawn. Giles and Anya. Making connections. Emotionally reaching out. Well, except for Spike.

And since, I'm not going to mention him anywhere else, does it make me a bad person that my reaction when Spike got his soul was to laugh my special occasion evil laugh. It was just so funny. My housemate and I began to speculate amusing soliloquies for Spike when he gets back or random situations. My favorites being, "So, how ya been?" "Soul, gypsy curse. You?" "Soul, demon trials." "Huh." Or that demon collapses after giving Spike his "soul" saying, "You should have the seen the look on your face. That was so funny. Soul. Pffft. Yeah, right. Here let's do it again, only more dramatic this time."

[> [> Re: Carpenters, Lions, and Cennobites, oh my! -- ponygirl, 07:44:23 05/23/02 Thu

What a lovely parallel to Restless and to Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe, which like you I only remember foggily. I would argue though that Spike too was making connections and reaching out emotionally in asking for his soul (and now that that has been confirmed by Jane Espenson, I will laugh my evil laugh, I told you so!).

Since no one else has really got into it I'd also like to mention how wonderful it was for Anya to be so concerned that Giles not be alone. The vengenance demon was pretty powerless this episode, but instead she realized it was important to be there, to offer human comfort in the end.

God Bless Xander! And other thoughts (Spolers for finale) -- West, 00:49:41 05/22/02 Wed

I may have some dubious opinions on how the season was built up, but I definately loved the ending. The way things were culminating I couldn't figure out how on Earth ME could be planning to go from *this* back to first season atmosphere, but they pulled it off. And the Slayer didn't even save the day! She conquers her personal demons and, finally, Xander has his time to shine... Not with powers or strength or any of the things he's been whining about not having, but just by being good ol' Xander. It's good to see he's still the same guy after all these years, and it finally paid off big.

Giles was amazing. I never realized how much I missed him, but ASH is one fantabulous actor and I wish so badly that he would stay around for next season, giving it a true 'Year One' atmosphere. His reaction to Buffy's revelations took me completely off guard!

I wish they could have done *some* crossover effects with this. Not necessarily swap character, but at least have the storylines run parallel... Like, have Lorne or someone mystically attuned sense the rise of Willow. I mean, Hell, they felt her in England, and LA is just a short drive away. I'd like to have found out that Lorne left because he secretly felt the rising danger and wanted to get farther away... Actually, I'd like to have Lorne not have left at all, but that's a whole other thread.

I'm also glad Danny Strong/Jonothon got a moment to shine. A few, really. I hope he comes back, though he can leave Andrew behind...

There were a few scenes I didn't like. Such as, the whole ordeal at the police department. Was it just me, or was the whole un-bricklaying sequence horribly drawn out? And yeesh, talk about inept cops, no wonder Buffy never bothered going to them for help! A few other elements seemed to throw off the mood, such as Anya's oh-so-clear scream when hanging from her neck, Buffy leaping to action straight from unconsciousness as soon as convenient, the horribly dramatic clawing her way out of the ground with her sister... But they can be overlooked.

All in all, bravo. I'm glad to have a happy ending. An anti- Buffy friend of mine complained about how 'love aaaaalways had to save the day', so I tossed him my taped copy of the Angel finale. A good balance this year.


[> Love (Spoilers for finale) -- MaeveRigan, 06:16:17 05/22/02 Wed

"An anti-Buffy friend of mine complained about how 'love aaaaalways had to save the day', so I tossed him my taped copy of the Angel finale."

Be sure and have him watch A4 next fall--see if love doesn't save the day there too. Let him complain; there's no getting around it. One way or another, love DOES save the day.

When it's his day, he'll be pleased enough about it.

Divine Comedy, anyone?

Yay Xander. Not to mention, yay Giles, Buffy, Dawn, Anya and Willow, and Spike (who gets what he *really* wants, I suspect, in asking to give Buffy what she deserves).

And bless Tara.

Season 7's Big Bad -- Egyptophile, 03:06:11 05/22/02 Wed

Who do you think next season's big-bad will be? I mean it would *seem* that ME has exhausted every avenue of story here with the big-bads. She's fought the Master (an uber- vamp), Spike & Drusilla (bad-arse vamps), the Mayor (an uber- demon), Adam (a super-human/demon genius), Glory (A GOD), and now Willow (one of her own best friends, an uber-witch).

What could be worse than the powers that Buffy has faced before? What could top betrayl from within? Excepting Willow, how much of an uber-villan can you get than a god?

[> Back to the beginning -- lunarchickk, 08:17:31 05/22/02 Wed

I think they need to come full circle and go back to the original premise: Buffy as Vampire Slayer. IMHO, the Big Bad for S7 should be a vampire, maybe even have someone trying to resurrect the Master (or succeeding at it). Barring that, perhaps another uber-powerful vampire from elsewhere who decides to take up residence at the Hellmouth.

(BTW, anyone who thinks this is hokey, I recommend reading "War" at -- that version is so much better than what I could imagine. I credit my whole idea to the writers of "War" because it was such an amazing fanfic. :) )

Alternatively, how about battling the Powers That Be? Since Angel is their Champion, it would send both shows into a season-long battle -- which of course neither would realize until the end of the season in a giant mega crossover. Hee. OK, never gonna happen, but I make my own fun. :)

[> [> Re: Back to the beginning (Possible Spoilers) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:35:25 05/22/02 Wed

Well, JW has stated that S7 wiil be 'back to the beginning' or 'Buffy: Year One'....One has to wonder, what was the exact wording as both of those phrases carry different connotations. 'Back to the beginning'...of what? The Buffy series? The origins of the Slayers?
And 'Buffy: Year One', of course has the whole 'Batman: Year One' thing going on, making me ask myself whether he's referring to the First Slayer, the first season, or Buffy's actual Year One-before she moved to Sunnydale and met the Scoobs!

[> Re: Season 7's Big Bad -- clg0107, 16:06:41 05/22/02 Wed

This isn't my theory on a Big Bad, exactly. But it did occur to me that the way to top everything and wrap up the series (since I'm assuming that S7 will be the last), would be to permanently obliterate/close/eliminate the Hellmouth itself.

Just a thought...


Deconstructing Our Will (Spoilers for Finale) -- Jane's Addiction, 04:07:52 05/22/02 Wed

Just a few thoughts on the finale. Aside from "damn, I take back every unkind thought I had about the writers' this season." I just loved the way the SG's personal journeys were finally dealt with here. Sorry if this has all been hashed and rehashed and hashed some more or is just altogether too anvil-obvious, but the thing that's been problematic about this season from my view was simply how focused the writers had been on the characters' very internal battles with their inner demons. That's a noble goal to be sure and thematically very interesting, but it's just incredibly hard to deal with characters' interior lives in a medium like TV or film. Many a gifted filmmaker has tried, but very few have really succeeded. It's almost impossible to bring an audience along for that ride from behind a steadicam. Still, ME seems to have done a pretty good job here now that we've seen the last scene of this season six act.

The psychological significance of the three central characters really struck me sometime during "Villains", causing one of those "light bulb goes off and hit yourself on the head because you're such a dummy not to have been pondering this all along" moments. Willow, Buffy and Xander each seem to represent different aspects of the human psyche. Intro to Psychology has been a while ago, but here goes. Will, the Id - running almost entirely on emotional impulse and the primal desire for instant gratification ("Can't I just make the pain go poof?"- Something Blue); Xander, the Superego - setting boundaries and attempting to control the more irrational impulses of the Id, if sometimes being a bit the judgy taskmaster("People can't do whatever they want. Society has rules, and borders and an end zone."- Restless); and Buffy, the Ego - striving to find the balance between the two and struggling to deal with reality. ("I talk, I shop, I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you left and I don't sleep on a bag of bones. Now give me back my friends." - Restless) Sorry, these quotes may not be exact, but you get the idea.

We need all three aspects of our psyche to be happy, well adjusted, functional individuals, the trick is finding the right balance between them. It seems that balance is what the characters have been struggling for all season, with quite limited success until the finale. Each central character seemed to come to a new place of self-knowledge in "Grave":

Buffy - Learns to ask for help when she needs it without shame, and allows herself to "feel" her life.
Xander - Who has been increasingly judgy and sometimes even cruel to those he loves over the last couple of seasons, learns to forgive and love unconditionally.
Willow - Learns to truly accept unconditional love without feeling the need to hide who she is, and perhaps finally learns to love herself.

And then there's the whole "Spike got a what?!" moment at the end. Along with Willow's descent, this feeds right back into a central message of the show. No one - human, vampire, demon or "mark 'huh?' here" - is beneath redemption or above corruption. We're all walking that ledge everyday, it's just more intense as people are growing up and trying to find out who they really are.

At least those are my thoughts. Can anyone better versed in psychology tell me if I'm totally misreading this?

By the way, too darn bad those Emmy types will never give an award to any show on UPN. Along with Joss and the other writers, it's about time AH got one of those funny little statues. For someone rumored to be uncomfortable playing the dark side, she made "Darth Rosenberg" very scary, viciously funny at times, and even heartbreaking. Amazing jobs all around.

[> Spike gets a moment only. He's a minor characer -- LeeAnn, 04:33:42 05/22/02 Wed

And then there's the whole "Spike got a what?!" moment at the end.

Moment indeed. What I and many thought was the most important arc in the series, Spike's redemption, and they blow it off in a moment, give Spike a monkey's paw wish that he didn't even want. I cannot express how annoyed I am with this whole soul ex demon thing.

Curse ME.

[> Lovely Insights (Spoilers for Finale) -- Scroll, 07:07:02 05/22/02 Wed

I'm running late or I'd write more, but you've really nailed it with the id/ego/superego analysis. I'm amazed at how ME's managed to return our heroes to their confident selves, having fallen, been redeemed, and grown up. Some people might think it was too easy for Xander to get through to Willow, but I think her weeping on the hill was just the beginning of the healing process. It's not going to be easy, but it's definitely going to be watchable.

[> [> Re: Lovely Insights (Spoilers for Finale) -- Jane's Addiction, 20:55:14 05/22/02 Wed

I completely agree. I think Willow's recovery process and her emergence as an adult will be an important story arc next season. It should be interesting seeing how her character is changed by her actions. I would imagine we'll see some element of the old, sweet Willow, but with a constant undercurrent of something more serious. She knows what she's capable of now, and she'll probably always be haunted by that, in the same sense that Giles has been by the magical misdeeds of his own youth. Of course, the undercurrent may be a bit more pronounced in Willow's case. "What did I do last summer? Watched my girlfriend be murdered right in front of me, flayed and immolated her killer alive, generally went all-rampagy and tried to order an apocalypse. And how have you been?"

For some reason I'm also expecting a lot of jokes about psychiatrists' sweaters as the SG begins to "enjoy the refreshing sanity."

[> Great post! (spoilers for Finale) -- Rahael, 09:29:23 05/22/02 Wed

I think you've posted here before, but let me welcome you to the board anyway.

Not well versed in psychology, but I will try and put together some more coherent thoughts later.

I completely agree about Willow. AH made me like dark Willow, evilness, bitchiness, whinyness and all.

As for the fans who are not happy about Spike's little moment, I for one am amazed that they didn't pick up the real insult that David Fury managed to slip in.

I thought it was interesting that they dealt with the Heart of Darkness/Evil coming out of Africa thing by making Spike come out of Africa renewed and enhanced. I always knew that they could not make him come out of Africa evil. Even so, big jaw dropping moment for me, even though I was spoiled. And hey LeeAnn, it almost makes me interested in Spike! So perhaps you are underestimating ME??

They succeeded with those few minutes what a whole season of Spike shagging didn't, which is to make me actually care, and be interested in, Spike the character.

[> [> Feeling kicked. -- LeeAnn, 10:24:57 05/22/02 Wed

And hey LeeAnn, it almost makes me interested in Spike! So perhaps you are underestimating ME??

Maybe I am. But after Seeing Red it's difficult for me to imagine it's possible to underestimate ME or that they have anything good or artistically valid in store for Spike's character.

ME kicked all the redemptionists in the teeth with their super-duper 10 second redemption. Redemption is dead. All you have to do to get saved is find the right demon and fight a few fights. Love doesn't matter. Doing good doesn't matter. Remorse doesn't matter. All that matters is finding the right demon and being strong enough to survive some trials.

ME kicked all the Spuffy lovers in the teeth by first making Spike a rapist then sending him to a demon with evil intent to get his chip out so he could kill Buffy. Unfortunately he found a demon with a sense of humour who resouled him instead of de-chipping him. I think it's unlikely we will ever see Spuffy again. In fact I consider Spike dead.

ME even kicked those of us who liked the Dawn/Spike interactions, liked Spike being Big Brother instead of Big Bad. Now Dawn will see Spike, not as a friend and protector, but as someone who tried to rape her sister.

ME kicked every variety of Spike fan so many different ways that, well, negativity is the result.

[> [> [> Oh, please, stop speaking for others, spike fans can very well speak for themselves alone thank you -- Etrangere, 11:10:10 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Feeling kicked. -- clg0107, 14:57:36 05/22/02 Wed

LeeAnn, you need to calm down.

I fit into most of the categories that you just iterated, and I loved how the season wound up. It was deep and complex, and it brought everybody their opportunity to start again.

ME fulfilled every high expectation I had, largely because they were unspecific expectations -- that they would make it all work out, work together, and make sense. And they did. What more can I ask?

Besides, just because any given individual dislikes the choices that the creative team makes does not make those choices wrong.

I know you've invested a lot in these characters, just like many of us here have. But you don't own them, any more than we own our families or friends. We can't control the choices made by people in our real lives, no matter how dear they are to us. And we can't always have it our way in terms of the development of the characters that are dear to us. Because, if they are supposed to reflect reality, sometimes they are going to disappoint you.

Now, the fact is that you are in the minority in feeling betrayed. Perhaps you need to step away and let your emotions settle -- and then see what comes next.


[> [> [> [> Re: Feeling kicked. -- O'Cailleagh, 15:22:11 05/22/02 Wed

I like Spike, he is one of my favourite characters. I also think JM is a great actor (and I can separate the two). I didn't like the fact that he tried to rape Buffy (if indeed, that was his intent), and I'm not too sure about this whole soul thing. However, I do not feel betrayed, hurt or abandoned by ME, JW or anyone else connected with the programme because, at the end of the day, it is just that-a television programme, and one that is primarily about who Buffy is slaying, rather than who she is laying. Even for all my obsessive behaviour concerning spoilers and foreshadowing I can still step back and say "Ah, well!" when something turns out to be not to my liking. I advise you strongly LeeAnn, as one fan to another, to do this yourself before you really get upset-knowing JW's liking for unhappy stories.

[> [> [> [> Nah---she's right. Its bad writing and character development. -- Disappointed...oh so disappointed....SPOILERS, 18:35:46 05/22/02 Wed

It is illogical to suggest that a writing team cannot make errors when plotting character arcs and development. Its also entirely possible that bad ideas given light and executed poorly can ruin a character's credibility in an serial story.

So far, almost everyone in the main cast has been tarnished or even downright ruined for me this year by the writing team. Making characters pathetic and not worthy of respect is one thing---but coupling that with numerous choices by those characters that are either inconsistent or poorly executed through awkward dialouge is what makes this bad writing.

At the moment, the only characters I find consistent (and before anyone mistakes character consistency for static characters--I must say, don't do that, as that would belie a lack of basic understanding of what character consistency is)are Jonathan, and Andrew (but not Warren--properly written, he kills Buffy with a sniper rifle while she's walking to work round about ep 17 or 18--cause, what would have stopped him?--answer: bad writers)*, Clem, maybe Dawn, and poor Tara.

*Only bad writers would create this situation: Warren has goals. Warren is immature, but is smart and likes to take shortcuts in life (and risks). His main obstacle is Buffy. He knows her whole routine and has been monitoring her for quite some time. She is clueless most of the season and not paying attention to life. She lives in a town full of enemies, but spends absolutely no time constructing or installing defenses in the house (mechanical, mystical or otherwise). She does not vary her patterns or routines in any noticeable way. And finally, she is deadly in close- combat, but has no defense against a sniper shot, since she is still human. Ergo, she is dead because the writers put themselves into a box. Except none of the characters react the way they should given the set-up. Ergo bad writing.

Its the kind of thing that happens to an inexperienced gamemaster. You put out the obstacle and don't worry about any of the small details, all the while building the epic showdown between the PCs and their enemy in your mind. And then, because of tiny holes you left all over the place--and these holes and fuzzy details are the kinds of things that a major villain (or hero if the PCs are villains) would have thought of and neutralized to prevent possible issues--- EXCEPT, you (as gm or as a writing team for a tv show) don't think of, and the players exploit this and kill the enemy in the first ten minutes of play.

Unless you like emotional high and low spots loosely thrown into a structure that is illogical, you won't like this season. I liked a lot of stuff this season. A lot. But ultimately, even the stuff I like happens within a framework that has too many holes. Too many inconsistencies, and examples of characters doing things and making decisions for no other reason than they have to to make the plot go to where it is supposed to.

The people in charge still satisfied a lot of you, but my demographic of people who want things that make logical, tactical, and strategic sense (if you don't know what I mean by this, then you probably still wouldn't get it if I attempted to elaborate) are not satisfied this season, and we always were before. More successful writers and producers would have pulled everything off such that that didn't happen. If it were overall better this season, less people would be disappointed, as I am.

[> [> [> It's just a TV show. It has no significance at all. (How about them Mets?) -- LeeAnn, 16:51:48 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> Re: Great post! (spoilers for Finale) -- Jane's Addiction, 21:21:15 05/22/02 Wed

Thanks for the welcome. I would be interested in hearing any of your thoughts on the symbolic power of the Scooby Psyche. I thought it was incredibly effective, but I haven't quite gathered all my thoughts on the subject.

As for Spike, I thought his little moment was perfect. Another example of ME taking our preconceived notions and turning them on their heads. I am a little concerned about the possibility of an "all haiku episode" featuring William the Bloody Awful Poet. But that's just me...

I know I'll be flamed but..... (SPOILERS) -- change, 04:14:45 05/22/02 Wed

I just didn't like the season finale. It was too long and too boring. The magic duel with Willow was stretched out far too long and it was too cheesy. I have nothing against fights and special effects. In fact, I'm the kind of person that usually likes the fight scenes in Buffy the most. However this thing with Willow just went on far too long. How many times can they show Willow shooting black lightening and fire balls, and having fist fights before it gets boring. I usually like the fight scenes, but lets face it: We know that all of the major actors are signed up through next year, so no one is going to get hurt. Even ASH is signed up to star in "Watcher". So, what's the point in having a long extended scene like that where nothing is accomplished, the plot isn't advanced, and the characters don't really learn anything. The whole thing should have been cut down to the standard 3 minute Buffy battle.

The resolution with Spike was another disaster. I know the female fans will all be thrilled about it. However, this is about the worst thing the writers could have done. If Spike had gotten the chip removed, there would have been a story to develop as to whether Spike really was becoming good. As it is, giving him a soul makes Spike's character development over the last season a moot point. If Spike had been made human, then there would have been a story to develop about his adjusting to being human again. Giving him a soul is just a cheap way of giving the female fans their toy.

The only thing I really liked about the finale is the way Xander saved Willow. It was good for him to find a purpose, it was a good way to bring back Willow, it opens plot possibilities re Anya-Xander vs Willow-Xander, and it was a good surprise.

Finally, I think the season ended on too happy a note. The world was saved, Buffy and Xander found their purpose in life, Dawn got her sister back, Giles is now, miraculously, going to live, Willow was saved, and Spike was souled. Although I didn't like how dark this last season has been, it seems to be too abrupt a change to suddenly become this positive this quickly. I think the writers just chickenned out. They realized that they went too far in making this season dark, and tried to save it by putting a happy ending on it.

Well, that's my opinion. Let the flames begin....

[> Flames (SPOILERS) -- LeeAnn, 04:48:46 05/22/02 Wed

The resolution with Spike was another disaster. I know the female fans will all be thrilled about it. However, this is about the worst thing the writers could have done. If Spike had gotten the chip removed, there would have been a story to develop as to whether Spike really was becoming good. As it is, giving him a soul makes Spike's character development over the last season a moot point. If Spike had been made human, then there would have been a story to develop about his adjusting to being human again. Giving him a soul is just a cheap way of giving the female fans their toy.

As a female fan let me say that giving Spike a soul, a soul he never asked for, never wanted, that was a monkey's paw wish, sux the big one. Like the attempted rape in Seeing Red completely negated Spike's love for Buffy, this soul ex demon completely negated his redemption.

This does not give us females a toy, it takes it away. It is a measure of how unimportant the writers and ME view Spike and James Marsters in how they handled it. In what should have been a season long arc they gives us a couple of minutes of fighting and some bugs crawling up his nose and viola, soul!! They keep Spike out of the finale, don't let him even try to save Buffy this time, make him a completely unnecessary, peripheral character. Let em tell you the female fans are NOT happy about that.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer has jumped the shark. They just threw away their most riveting story and character to concentrate on their core group of lamers. They deliberately trivialized Spike and kept him out of the action. Now I've read a lot of positive reviews of the finale on TWoP. Some of them are from names you never see on posts so we know some of the are ME employees, associates, etc. protecting their jobs but many are from long time posters who really liked it. So I (and you) are just part of the disgruntled minority.

[> [> Re: Flames (SPOILERS) -- maddog, 06:39:50 05/22/02 Wed

For one, we don't know what's going to happen with Spike. Why do we wait until next season and see where the storyline is headed before we blast Joss for how "unimportant" he thinks Spike is. Cause I'll bet it's quite to the contrarey.

Second Spike not being around in the finale is key. They needed as little help as possible(minus the need for Giles to be around...he did have his role). Cause Spike couldn't have saved the day...Xander was the only one who could really do it.

Third, not that I'm a female fan, but speak for yourself. You're not the whole're one person. If all the females feel that way...let them express their opinion instead of having you talking for them.

[> [> [> Re: Flames (SPOILERS) -- LeeAnn, 06:55:57 05/22/02 Wed

Right. I do just speak for myself.

But if ME considered Spike to be important to the series, and more important, to ratings, they would have featured him more than 4 minutes in the last 3 hours of Buffy DURING SWEEPS!!

I think that shows, more than anything, now unimportant and peripheral they now consider James and his character to be.

[> [> [> [> Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- Rob, 07:31:34 05/22/02 Wed

I don't get how you think ME considers JM trivial or peripheral...He was the cliffhanger, for cripes' sake! He wasn't in the last 3 episodes that much because they are cooking up something huge for him next year. Restoring Spike's soul was not jumping the shark...It was the living realization of the ultimate irony.

And I really don't think it's fair to judge on a plot point that is going to be resolved NEXT year. This was a cliffhanger. You don't know, and we don't know what the heck happened to Spike...Is he a vampire with a soul now? Or is he a human with a soul? Is he Spike with a soul? Or William? This is going to be a fascinating storyline.

I'm not trying to flame you. I hope you don't take it that way, but I just think you should hold tight until next year...You may be surprised.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- O'Cailleagh, 07:37:39 05/22/02 Wed

Was it actually stated that Spike was given a soul? The reason I'm asking is that, as yet, I've only read the wildfeed because Grave won't be on for another week over here, and it didn't mention anything about a this an assumption or a fact?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- CW, 07:46:33 05/22/02 Wed


[> [> [> [> [> [> Whoops! Just re-read the wildfeed! -- O'Cailleagh, 07:47:47 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- LeeAnn, 08:24:32 05/22/02 Wed

I don't get how you think ME considers JM trivial or peripheral...He was the cliffhanger, for cripes' sake! He wasn't in the last 3 episodes that much because they are cooking up something huge for him next year. Restoring Spike's soul was not jumping the shark...It was the living realization of the ultimate irony

Go ahead flame me. I hope I'm wrong. I'd even pray I'm wrong but when they give him 4 minutes in 3 hours, when they take their most important (to me) character arc, redemption, and blow it off, don't even use Spike to try to increase ratings then that tells me he's peripheral now. They could have spread this soul crap out over the 3 hours with shots of his trials, flash backs etc. They could have done so much with it/..but they didn't and that is the clincher to me.

Hell, I've read they are in bitter contract negotiations with Charisma Carpenter, that she might not even return if they don't come to terms, and STILL they give her 5X as much time in an hour finale of AtS than they give JM? Doesn't that tell us ANYTHING?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- maddog, 08:37:01 05/22/02 Wed

Yeah, but she's a main character in a show with only 2 real front runners. Spike's on a show where the only one not really a main character is Dawn and she's on her way. The time, it has to be split more ways. There's no real flaming here...just a difference of opinion because we're going to give ME and Joss the benefit of the doubt. I just wish those that are ready to take his head off would be a little patient.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Peripheral?!? ("Grave" spoilers) -- clg0107, 12:26:45 05/22/02 Wed

but when they give him 4 minutes in 3 hours, when they take their most important (to me) character arc, redemption

Ummm...wasn't it the 2-1/2 year character arc that brought him to the point of wanting to take some drastic action to settle the man v. monster issue? He's been fascinating to watch, but as a character, he's been in limbo a lot of this season. There's been progress toward, and regression from, redemption, at or near a was time for something dramatic to happen.

This is no more a lame situation than it was to kill off Tara. One of the sub-themes is how you go along in your little rut, and then suddenly, something cataclysmic happens and your life changes. Buffy died. Buffy came back. Buffy and Spike make with the whooppee. Willow erases Tara's memory. Xander leaves Anya at the altar. I could go on. These are all moments where suddenly, and unexpectedly, everything changes. I see the ensoulment of Spike as no different.

And personally, I'm ready for Joss & Co. to bring it on next fall. Is he human? Is he still a vamp? If the latter, how does he even convince anyone of what's happened? How do the individual Scoobies integrate the new status quo. Never mind that Spike's gonna be pissed, because I'm pretty sure this wasn't what he had in mind.

I guess, at the end of the day, I wonder why people keep watching if they are so convinced that the writers are "ruining" it? I mean, they've done okay so far. Maybe, given that they have omniscience about THEIR story from which we cannot benefit, save in hindsight, we should just trust that they know what they are doing.

I admit to thinking the magic as addiction storyline struck me a little lame at the time. But I also figured that they'd make it meaningful later. And they did. It's now clear (to me, anyway), that the SG was collectively taking the easy way out by seeing it in such simplistic terms. Many on the boards tore their hair, asking how the writers could possibly be taking such a superficial treatment of the situation -- it was about power and Willow's self-image, stupid! Well, yes, it was. And if we'd just been patient, we'd have seen that we were probably supposed to realize before the gang that this was the case. But that sooner or later, the hard road, and the ugly truths would have to be faced. And they were. And everyone and everything fell apart.

But they can now all put themselves back together anew. It's a new dawn ( there something significant in that?) for all of them, even for Spike. And, as I've been forced to ask after every major development his season (like every other episode, it's seemed), "Where do we go from here...?"

I am utterly psyched to find out!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why? -- LeeAnn, 15:17:33 05/22/02 Wed

I guess, at the end of the day, I wonder why people keep watching if they are so convinced that the writers are "ruining" it?

Addiction. Pure and simple. Or impure and complex. Dark!Willow has nothing on me.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree -- verdantheart, 11:16:51 05/22/02 Wed

I agree that the fact that there was a cliff-hanger and Spike was it gives a certain weight that offsets the lack of minutes. Spike is the last person we saw, his is the image that we are left with over the summer. And while we might speculate about what Willow must now face, Spike's storyline is the only one left unresolved, which hints that his journey will play an important role next year.

That this relative lack of time happened during sweeps does not tell me that ME considers Spike as a character (and certainly not Mr Marsters as an actor) marginal. It heartens me that they put the needs of the story ahead of giving the most popular actors the most screen time. Spike's trials are a fairly simple storyline, whereas Willow's experience and the Scoobies' attempts to bring her back was a much more complex storyline that required more character exposition and plot. Other characters were given shorter shrift so that Spike could evolve earlier in the season.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, I like the way you think... -- LeeAnn, 12:17:24 05/22/02 Wed

Now if I could just believe it.

[> [> [> [> [> shark jumping ("Grave" spoilers) -- skeeve, 14:03:39 05/22/02 Wed

What does jumping the shark mean?

If the cave demon was truthful, Spike is now a human. Spike has never had a human soul when he wasn't human. Since the cave demon gave him his soul to make him the way he was, Spike must now be human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: shark jumping ("Grave" spoilers) -- JBone, 18:19:11 05/22/02 Wed

What does jumping the shark mean?

Jump the shark is a term borrowed from the old Happy Days tv show. It refers to the episode that Fonzie jumps over the shark on his motorcycle. The theory is that the show was never as good after a certain episode. There is a whole community online devoted to proclaiming shows "over" at

[> [> [> [> Re: Flames (SPOILERS) -- maddog, 07:37:21 05/22/02 Wed

I refer to

"This does not give us females a toy, it takes it away"

when I said that you don't speak for others.

I think while his part was small it was just as significant as the other storylines. And he got the BIG ending too. He gets to be the last thing people see before the credits...that always sticks in your mind.

And all I'm saying is give them the benefit of the doubt and wait til we see what's in store for Spike next season. You just might surprise yourself.

[> [> [> Re: Flames (SPOILERS) -- Rafe, 13:34:38 05/23/02 Thu

If Spike had been around he would probably be dead. DarkWillow could have killed him in a second with a fireball. I don't think she would have had any problems doing that since he isn't really her friend.

[> [> Making assumptions about Spike (spoilers, Grave) -- Ted Tso, 07:12:39 05/22/02 Wed

I think the demon's word were deliberately vague here.
What makes you think Spike didn't become human? After all, humans also have souls. And Spike kept asking to be made "as he was before".

Given the ME's pattern of referring to previous patterns, and then faking us out (and in general, never using the same plot twist in exactly the same way), I wouldn't be surprised if Spike turns out next season to be not just re-souled, but also de-vampired. That is, "as he was" before Drusilla turned him into a vamp. Spike as human might also bring a new meaning to his wish that "Buffy gets what she deserves".
This is just speculation, of course, but seems to make a lot of sense.

Also, I don't believe that Spike as human would necessarily be powerless. After all, he still has several centuries of fighting experience, even if he doesn't have the vampire setrength. (He also has knowledge about things demon-ey and what happened in the distance past --- although granted this skill is also covered by Anya and Giles --- although if Giles isn't going to be around much in S7, after he gets is own show, there will clearly be an opening for someone to fill that niche.)

[> [> [> Re: Spike's powerlessness -- AngelVSAngelus, 08:39:20 05/22/02 Wed

I don't know if it'd work exactly the same way, but when Angel was human, despite fighting experience, he wasn't a very adept fighter because of the disorientation experienced when one goes from super-fast vampiric reflex to human coordination.

[> [> I Too am female -- Spike Lover, 08:08:18 05/22/02 Wed

I LOVED the season finale until Spike was resouled. Rufus said it would happen. I hoped it wouldn't. Because what is the point of his "redemption" or "doing good out of the love of a woman" journey if you can't go all the way? If that was the point, you can't go all the way w/o a human soul, then why not have him revert back to evil bitterly (as Spike wanted) or remove the chip and see just how good he is at being good w/o his shock collar?

But the MAIN reason I am against giving Spike his soul back has to do with Buffy herself. (Yes, I have supported a Spike/Buffy relationship from the beginning.) I keep looking at Buffy and what Buffy can and does seem to love and what she is attracted to. Undeniably, she is attracted to bad boy Spike (whether it is because she is part slayer is irrelevant to me.)

1) If you give Spike his soul back and make him human again- you get an 18th Cent "Xander" character. Buffy does not romantically love "Xander". It won't work. Buffy will reject him.

2) If you keep Spike a vampire and give him a soul too, you get "Angel". I have seen enough of the moping, 'I am too guilty to exist', 'I can never redeem myself for the evil I have done', 'I am burdened eternally and will continue to burden everyone I am around' etc. If they have Spike go this way, they will be repeating themselves. But more importantly, Spike will be 'too much like Angel' and Buffy will reject him because Angel was her first true love- and he betrayed her, tried to kill her, and finally left her, and taught her that 'she really can't trust men, vampires (w/ or w/o souls) or her feelings of love.

I disagree wholeheartedly with another post that said that 'off camera Spike must have requested his soul back'. I think that final scream of horror should discount that fact. He wanted the chip out so that he could finally wreak revenge on the woman who had scourned him (and believed he was going to get it.) Will greater good come out of a desire for revenge finally?

[> [> [> Is it really A or B? -- dream of the consortium, 08:30:04 05/22/02 Wed

No C option at all?

I can think of several (and I'm terrible at these guessing games)
C - 1 He's an vampire with a soul, a la Angel. But he doesn't brood, because he's not that kind. He sees the chance to make amends immediately, rather than hiding in alleys for one hundred years.
C - 2 He's poet William, with the strength of Spike, but not the memories of his time as a vampire.
C - 3 He's a vampire with a soul who hates having a soul, a la Darla. I don't watch Angel, so I don't know how repetitive it would be.

I don't think he specifically asked for his soul back, but I think he was given what he wanted without knowing he wanted it. I don't think that negates his journey in the slightest - what's wrong with the next step in the journey being the painful acquisition of a soul? What's more impressive than a vampire developing a desire for a soul? He's still got a lot of journeying to go, and I don't think his trip will be Angel's.

By the way, I actually like the idea of human William. Because it's a "what we need, not what we want" situation for the viewer. We like Spike all big and bad better than wholesome William - but what does it say about us if we like the evil one better than the good one? What if the journey became a journey back - William learning to be strong, while retaining his goodness? What has been the point of the last two seasons if not the potential, for good and for bad, in everyone? Buffy, too, might do well to learn to love someone a little more like Xander and Giles, a little less like Spike and Angel. And don't forget - she likes poetry.

As for the screen time - he got the cliffhanger, the final scene, and the only separate storyline. Not bad, really.

[> [> [> [> I like your C's -- Spike Lover, 09:13:39 05/22/02 Wed

I also did not complain about his screen time. I just don't want another 'Angel'. (Please no.)

I love William. I love "good men". The reason why I loved "Spike" was the goodness in him, not the badness. (ok- the humor too.) I did not love Spike because he was tough, but because he was gentle. He was kind to the Buffybot. He was gentle w/ crazy Dru. He was devoted to Buffy and Dawn. He was so unlike Darla and Angelus and even Drusilla to a certain extent. (When things got tough, Darla abandoned Angelus in a barn surrounded by vampire hunters. She did not care about her significant other. There was nothing in any sort of way likeable about her or Angelus' behavior- much like the lawyers on Angel.)

But this again begs the question about Buffy. Why is Buffy attracted to Spike? Is it because he is dangerous? Or something else?

By the way, if you have never seen the couple of episodes of Angel this season when Darla has Angel's baby, you have missed some of the best story ever. (Try to borrow it.)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I like your C's -- dream of the consortium, 09:47:46 05/22/02 Wed

Oops - sorry about the screen time issue. That's someone else from above - shouldn't have included it in that post.

I don't want to see Angel II: Electric Bugaloo either. In fact (whisper) I don't watch Angel because I can't stand his character. God, do I find him annoying. I was so happy when he left - and to LA no less, a city I love as much as Woody Allen does. It all seemed so fitting. (return to normal voice) So, I would be terribly disappointed to see a broody Spike - heck, he's brooded enough this season for a unlifetime, though not over the same things as Angel, of course.

Buffy is learning to get over her bad boy thing. And I think she has feelings for Spike that are not related to that part of the attraction. I like the idea of her finding William hard to take, though - not tough enough, etc., and then realizing 1) he has strength inside him, as Spike had gentleness in him and 2) she wants the sensitivity, not the leather jacket.

I actually do agree, however, with whoever it was below who mentioned that if we do get William, and Buffy does love him, the sex becomes problematic. I know I've said it before, but I liked that part of this season was genuinely about sex, about Buffy learning to find freedom for her sexual desires. I don't think she can have sex with a man who lacks her physical strength and not feel restrained in some way, cautious. So I guess I want a super-strong but human Spike/William, hold the broody, heavy on the poet, to go.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I like your C's -- rose, 12:57:13 05/22/02 Wed

Spike wont be another angle any more than he was anything like angeleus before a soul was bestowed.
spike never mopes very long and contray to some of his behavior this seaaon niether is he an idiot.
he will probably do his best to avoid even mentioning angel to avoid buffy seriously hurting him.
that is if she belives him and doesnt stake him on site beliving the chip was removed though i bet that spell trashed it regardless of weather or not he is human . the deamon may not have been able to restore him to human form so settled for a soul the closest he could do or he may be human either way we have to wait.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I like your C's -- maddog, 09:48:44 05/22/02 Wed

I think she was attracted to the bad it's a matter of can she love him as a man with a soul...a non bad boy. She did with Riley for a while, but that fell apart.

[> [> [> [> [> [> "Attracted to the bad boy" -- pr10n, 10:22:02 05/22/02 Wed

Since this season has been about growing up (among other things), maybe this is Spike's chance to grow up. After all, he was pretty arrested in his late adolescence what with the immortality and all.

And maybe this explains the demon's actions: "That bitca will get what she deserves." Amen to that -- maybe Buffy deserves a super strong human William, heavy on the poet. Maybe she's earned a "good man," as she apparently earned h(H)eaven.

Be careful what you wish indeed -- the glowing-eyed burbly demon may know more than he/she/it/them let's on.

[> [> [> [> Re: Is it really A or B? -- skeeve, 09:53:21 05/22/02 Wed

I didn't care for have the cave demon giving SPike his soul back. If CD was granting Spike's request (even in monkey's paw fashion) Spike should now be human. Spike asked to be like he was and he was never a vampire with a human soul. 'Twould have been interesting if Spike had explicitly asked to be made human. He wouldn't have had to go to Africa. The Scoobies know how to do that. I kinda liked the idea of Spike being influenced by other people's souls, a la Darla.

BTW among the things that seem to have gone undiscussed among the Scoobies is what to do if Buffy gets vamped? Dust? Resoul? Rehumanize?

[> [> [> [> How about option D? -- Sophist, 10:39:27 05/22/02 Wed

D. The cave demon is the Wizard of Oz; he gave nothing to the tinman that he didn't already have (apologies to Frank Baum and America). Spike merely thinks he has a soul and acts accordingly.

[> [> [> [> [> Excellent possibility -- dream of the consortium, 11:02:15 05/22/02 Wed

Though I don't think one ever needs to make apologies to America (the band, that is).

[> [> [> [> Re: Is it really A or B? -- clg0107, 12:54:18 05/22/02 Wed

Having read some of the posts on this board, I'm becoming pursuaded that Spike will be human rather than ensouled vamp. In which case, why would he revert back to William? Isn't it possible (or even likely) that he would have the benefit of all the experiences of Spike? Now, that would be some major integration difficulty.

A friend of mine suggested that what we'd have is neither William nor Spike, personality-wise, but Randy. When Spike didn't know he was a vamp, just going with his instincts**, he was still our favorite snarky, funny, sardonic guy, but who accepts that his place in the world is with the SGs, fighting by Buffy's side.

Perhaps the answer was in front of us all along??

**anyone who says that the redemption storyline has been abandoned by giving Spike his soul back is ignoring these types of moments. When Spike's uninformed instinct is to behave as he did in TR, that says a lot. But when he and everyone else was aware of all their baggage (and had accumulated a bunch more), it was too complicated. Easier to try and revert to the Big Bad. And in so doing, sow the seeds of, as another poster suggested, getting "what he wanted rather than what he asked for". It still all boils down to him not being in the situation that drove him to this end if it weren't for the changes that had already been happening.


[> [> [> Re: I Too am female -- maddog, 08:46:27 05/22/02 Wed

I can see where you'd be frustrated. But think about it this way. Maybe that was his last test. Maybe all he's gone through with the chip and helping Buffy and falling in love with Buffy lead him to this place. To fighting to be someone she could love. Why can't that be the redemption people want so badly. Cause no one really knows if he wanted the chip gone or a soul. He just said things would be different. What Buffy deserved. Who knows if deep down he really wanted that soul. For Buffy's sake.

And I think you've missed the maturity of our slayer if you think that she isn't getting out of her bad boy phase. That's been a big part of this year's arc with Spike. I think she'd get used to a more Riley ish character and a souled Spike just might be it.

I agree going the Angel route would be a bad thing. They'd have to put a huge twist on it to make me like it. Cause repeat storylines aren't they're style.

I still say that final scream was the pain and not the revelation he was getting a soul. What Buffy deserves is awfully vague.

[> [> [> My Thoughts (Spoilers for BtVS finale) -- Exegy, 09:41:09 05/22/02 Wed

The addition of a soul does not necessarily make Spike an Angel clone, IMO. Spike is his own character, and I view his soul as the logical fruition of his current character development. The soul reflects an internal transformation that has been going on for some time now. We see Spike becoming more and more human in his reactions (even to the point of forgetting that he is a vampire). He feels genuine remorse for his behavior in SR, something I don't think we've seen any vampire experience.

The chip is not enough to explain away Spike's feelings. He might blame his changes on an external mechanism, but the changes are really all internal. The chip is like a convenient catalyst. It allows Spike to reconnect to whatever remains of his humanity; it facilitates a transformation that probably could not have occurred otherwise. The soul is the end product of this transformation. It is not a cop-out, IMO. If anything, it is a direct expression of all the changes Spike has undergone in the past few years.

If Spike changes his Bad Boy image, then that is his choice. Or he can remain pretty much the same. The soul gives him these options. And Spike desires these options, just as he desired a soul (either consciously or unconsciously).

I think that Buffy could come to trust Spike because of his desire to change. And the soul is a reflection of that.

[> [> [> [> Re: My Thoughts (Spoilers for BtVS finale) -- maddog, 09:57:00 05/22/02 Wed

How can he have a soul and not act like Angel? It's like having all the sins you've ever comitted dropped on your conscience all at once. Just doesn't work. It drove Angel nuts and it would do the same to Spike. Cause he'd care...he wouldn't want to but he would.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: My Thoughts (Spoilers for BtVS finale) -- verdantheart, 11:26:15 05/22/02 Wed

Why couldn't they be different? After all, Liam and William were very different people.

[> [> [> [> [> i think so also. The guilt would be horrible -- Spike Lover, 08:26:45 05/23/02 Thu

Guilt may be a theme next season. Willow should feel guilty. Spike will too. The only thing I can think of that might help is that Spike was not so evil as Angelus. He wasn't into torturing people for fun. Killing and eating, sure. Playing with your food before you eat it- sure. Taking down the slayers because that is the biggest, baddest achievement a vamp could have. But causing pain because you could? I don't recall that. -I don't know. William was a pretty delicate guy. It seemed to me that if William had intentionally hurt anything, it might have crushed him. If William is truly back, he is going to need some prozac (and maybe a priest).

[> I know I´ll be flamed too, but...(Spoilers for final) -- grifter, 04:52:03 05/22/02 Wed

...I was a little disappointed with the final too, although for completely different reasons.

1. No Tara. I was hoping she´d come back in SOME form, alive or ghost or guide or whatever...well, lets hope for season 7...

2. I have to agree, it all seemed a little slow, two seperate episodes would have worked nicely too.

3. Giles comes back and saves the day. A little too easy for my taste.

4. Xander talking Willow down. It was a nice scene, but it somehow lacked something...don´t really know what. And her suddenly running out of juice seemed a little easy again. The whole season (which I loved, btw) was about the hard choice, the stony path. It all seems to work out a little too easy in the end.

[> [> I disagree -- mucifer, 05:54:25 05/22/02 Wed

Tara coming back as a ghost could have been interesting if it was done well and I was hoping for that. I hope she wont be like Jesse, never mentioned again (which would make sense if they are really going back to season 1).

I think they are still sticking with the season 4 theme of Buffy being the hand, Giles being the mind (he had that well thought out plan), Xander being the heart and Willow was a way outta control spirit.

Oh and I personally loved the Giles parts. The man clearly needs to dump his family and go back to what is truely important, being a regular on the show ;)

[> [> Re: I know I´ll be flamed too, but...(Spoilers for final) -- maddog, 06:45:55 05/22/02 Wed

But Giles didn't save the day. Even with his "true magic" it still took Xander to save the day. That's what I loved most about this finale. That in the end it wasn't a slayer, or magician, or demon controling the outcome. It was a regular guy reminding his best friend that no matter who or what she is/was/or will be, that he loved her.

[> [> Not at all ... was I´ll be flamed, but...(Spoilers for final) -- alcibiades, 06:55:44 05/22/02 Wed

Grifter wrote: "Xander talking Willow down. It was a nice scene, but it somehow lacked something...don´t really know what. And her suddenly running out of juice seemed a little easy again. The whole season (which I loved, btw) was about the hard choice, the stony path. It all seems to work out a little too easy in the end."

Willow clearly had to be redeemed by someone loving her unrestrictedly, that's her story arc. But I really didn't like how they did it, it seemed way too easy to me also. It made me want to laugh it seemed so facile, which is I gather the reaction that a lot of people felt about Cordelia's ascension on Angel. Totally agree about too much working out too well in the end.

I loved Giles though. He was fabulous.

I also thought they completely lamed up what happened to Spike. I would have prefered the vampire on a path of redemption without a chip story -- but for whatever reason ME feels it goes against their canon, it couldn't happen that way. One of them said recently that Spike went as far as they thought he could go, which was further than they thought originally.

But Spike's ascension into the next level of consciousness does mean that he has defied gravity -- from Xander's dream in Restless.

A friend of mine pointed out that there is one good thing about what happened with Spike. Season 6 starts with a shot of Spike running in the graveyard with the Scoobies and it ends with him getting a soul. Metaphorically or imagistically his path or arc is encapsulated in Season 6. Which means, I believe, that one thing that was going on with the Spike story was that while the Scoobies, with the exception of Tara, were all self destructing and being too self-involved to notice anything at all different about Spike, TPTB or whomever is operative in the Buffyverse sat up and took notice of him and rewarded him for what he did. The change was real, even if Buffy refused repeatedly to notice it.

And that demon with green glowy key eyes cannot be a "bad demon", whatever Spike thought, unless he's an awfully stupid one. He'd be a pretty inane trickster if he gave Spike a soul so that the reborn warrior Spike who passed every test thrown at him could now go and fight invincibally with the Slayer against the forces of darkness.

So now we have two demons elevating characters on our two shows into the next level of consciousnes, Skip, with red eyes, elevating Cordelia. In this case, it is not at all clear this is what it appears to be at face value, that she has passed her test. She seems to have failed it if for no other reason than that her desire to rise to the next level to fulfill her destiny was more important to her than the love and well-being of the people she was leaving behind. I think Skip is the real trickster. Cordelia seemed to want her destiny and in the Jossverse, you don't get what you want, you get what you need, which is pain.

And then there is the demon with green glowy eyes elevating Spike to be ensouled, though it is not what he wants or what he thinks he wants at that moment, after he has clearly passed his tests. Seems to me, he's much more of a Joss- demon than Skip.

Like I said recently, the new Spike, he's going to have issues.

[> [> [> Excellent points!! -- Caroline, 07:09:37 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> [> Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- maddog, 07:57:54 05/22/02 Wed

And honestly, he was the only one who could have done it. He's the only one who knew her from day 1.

[> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- alcibiades, 08:31:58 05/22/02 Wed

I just don't like the Willow killed two people cruelly and wanted to destroy the world, but hey her best friend loves her, so everything is right again aspect of the story. Sure, she'll suffer, but she is a Scooby. And Hey, that magic wasn't really her, it just drained away. It was Rack's magic doing bad things inside her -- like a bad trip from bad acid. Not her fault at all, all external. That is what I felt was facile.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- maddog, 08:52:08 05/22/02 Wed

She killed Warren and....? Who was the second one?

I think, as I've been explaining to all the disgruntled Spike fans, that this isn't the end of it. She's got a lot to atone for. Talk about a new twist. A non demon having to atone for something they've done. I don't think anyone's going to forget what she's done. They're her friends, so it'll be "forgive but not forget" more or less. And she's still got the magic "addication" so that's even more story. Don't give up just because the finale was too's not over.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- alcibiades, 09:03:30 05/22/02 Wed


Thanks for your words.

But I'm not giving up. I just felt it was facile and was disappointed.

Whereas I REALLY liked the way they devised to make Angel pay. And to make Wesley pay.

Now wondering about what horrible thing that says about me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- maddog, 10:00:27 05/22/02 Wed

hehe, another pet peeve of mine...I still say Wesley doesn't deserve the way he's being treated. He did nothing wrong. If it weren't for his good hearted nature he would have gotten in that car and driven as fast as he could. But he chose to try to help her. Thus getting his throat slit and his life altered.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- Dochawk, 13:35:50 05/22/02 Wed

I agree partly with what you say. Willow needs to pay in a big HUMAN way, not mystical. Just as Warren should have gotten the death penalty, Willow deserves it also (though there is only the eyewitness testimony of Buffy/Xander/Anya to convict so thats a nonstarter).

Rack's death was no more a murder of a human than killing the mayor, or Catherine or the renegade watcher Post, they were once humans but they took on being demons (in racks case he became a Warlock) and forfeited their right to human judgement.

And I am willing to buy that Willow was possessed by Rack's dark forces when she tried to destroy the world, but there needs to be something more for her than turning her back into the loser she once was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Isn't that what jail is for? -- LeeAnn, 09:12:41 05/22/02 Wed

A non demon having to atone for something they've done.

Isn't that what jail is for? Isn't that why Faith is in jail? Willow murdered at least two people, Warren and Rack, and tried to murder a lot more. Somehow I don't think jail is in Willow's future, not jail just justification.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Isn't that what jail is for? -- Malandanza, 10:55:34 05/22/02 Wed

"Isn't that what jail is for? Isn't that why Faith is in jail? Willow murdered at least two people, Warren and Rack, and tried to murder a lot more. Somehow I don't think jail is in Willow's future, not jail just justification."

I have to agree with you -- Willow will see less jail time than Andrew and Jonathan. And speaking of Faith, here's Willow up on her soapbox from Season 3 lecturing Faith:

WILLOW (cont'd) It didn't have to be this way, but you made your choice. I know
you've had a tough life. I know some people think you've had a lot of bad breaks, and that you've hardened your heart to protect yourself from the pain.

Faith softens, listening. Then Willow moves in and attacks.

WILLOW (cont'd) Well, boo-hoo. Poor you. You had a lot more in your life than some people. You had friends like Buffy. Now you've got no one. And you were a slayer!
One of the Chosen. Now you're nothing. Just a selfish, worthless, waste.
(Shooting Script -- Choices)

And forget the murders of Warren and Rack -- the Willow predatory speech to Dawn at Rack's place was just plain evil. What would have happened if Buffy hadn't shown up at that moment?

Blame the magic. That evil, dark magic she's been messing with unbalanced her mind -- that wasn't Willow. Never mind that Willow made the decision to use the magic, fully conscious of the effects it would have on her. And then there's the good magic that she took from Giles -- it was cleansing. No more evil in Willow's soul. Blaming good Willow for evil Willow's actions would be unthinkable -- like blaming Angel for Angelus'. Punishment? She'll be rewarded by the love and attention of her friends. We can hope that her conscience will remind her of her actions, but Willow's guilty conscience never lasts long. Maybe it will be different this time -- maybe she'll see Warren's flayed body in her sleep, crying out for mercy. But I doubt it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- Farstrider, 09:31:12 05/22/02 Wed

You wrote:
"She killed Warren and....? Who was the second one?"

Answer: Rack

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- maddog, 10:06:17 05/22/02 Wed

Was he really dead or was that kind of like the state Giles was in after she sucked the magic from him? I didn't realize he was actually dead. wow. as for Willow's atonement from the previous real life she'd deserve jail. But like I've said before, this isn't real life. The rules are bent. The average fan may not want to see her in jail. It would kind of ruin the potential final season.

[> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- CW, 08:32:18 05/22/02 Wed

The problem is that we saw no sign of inner conflict in Willow. It looked like she was just frustrated that her spells weren't having more effect. It seemed that Xander was still alive because she was running out of energy again. We needed to see that she still had plenty of 'juice.' We should have had some idea that her Black Magic was 'tainted' before we went back to hear Gile's explanation. We needed to see something sooner in Willow that showed deep-down she didn't want to kill him. As much as I like Xander being the hero, and why he was the hero, it was written thoughtlessly.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- dream of the consortium, 09:30:51 05/22/02 Wed

I do tend to agree with you on that, but I think the "bad trip" scene whre she takes in Giles' power was supposed to give you that. She is suddenly empathetic again - too much so. It's Willow's old problem: there's so much pain in the world. She responds with a desire to destroy the world, but seemingly more out of pity and a desire to end her pain than the sadism she was showing just a short while before. She is supposed to have moved back, I believe, to a place where she is closer to the truth - this is about blocking pain. And then Xander has a chance to get through to her with love. Unfortunately, it didn't quite work. I loved Xander being the one to save Willow, and I loved the scene of Willow reacting to the good magic, and I think one was supposed to build to the other. Theoretically, I think it does, but, emotionally, I agree, something was lacking.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Too easy? She almost killed him! :( -- maddog, 09:44:54 05/22/02 Wed

Then we're interpreting it differently. That whole speech by Xander had her thinking. But she kept fighting it. Kept convincing herself that ending the world...ending her pain...would be the only way to go. Yet Xander pushed. He reminded her that no matter who or what she was, she was loved. And that's what was breaking her down. Not the magic. I'd say the magic gave out because he'd reached her...and that's what I thought Giles was saying. It gave her just enough humanity for Xander to reach her feelings...and he shut the magic down by what he said.

[> [> Re: I know I´ll be flamed too, but...(Spoilers for final) -- DaveW, 23:24:28 05/22/02 Wed

"Giles comes back and saves the day. A little too easy for my taste."

It's called a deus ex machina. It's a story device that's existed for millenia. I think it's stood the test of time. And in this particular instantiation, ASH was back. Why not just sit back and enjoy?

"I have to agree, it all seemed a little slow, two seperate episodes would have worked nicely too."

It was supposed to be two eps, but they were behind in shooting and UPN wanted to get the season done during sweeps, so it got compressed to a two-hour block. Not ME's fault, except for the being behind bit, I suppose.

[> Re: I know I'll be flamed but..... (SPOILERS) -- maddog, 05:55:00 05/22/02 Wed

Well first of all, not EVERYBODY knows that the actors are all signed on. In fact, most that watch the show aren't website junkies and/or spoiler junkies like some of us. So all that will they/won't they die's legit for most.

How do you know Spike's not human? Isn't the difference between a human and a demon the mere lack of a soul? So yeah, we just may have to see him adjust...and even if not...I think the big surprise is that the demon guy gave him what Spike truly wanted...not what he kept boasting he wanted.

I too loved the way when it came down to the final wasn't wasn't the was a very human aspect...and it gave Xander the moment he's wanted since forever(though I do like to give him the assist for bringing Buffy back to life in season 1).

Yes, the season ended on a somewhat happy note. So what? So did season did season did season 4. The only truly tragic ones(but yes, the better ones) were 2 and 5. Both great finales. But remember, this was an unconventional season. Lots of uncharted territory. So here we get a truly emotional finale yet with a fairly happy ending. Joss said recently he likes to end every season like it could be the series finale. And I don't think you could have left this one up in the air. Not when main characters are at stake.

[> Interesting view. So female fans aren't objective? -- Tillow, 06:08:25 05/22/02 Wed

Because, from a writer's perspective, I think making Spike human actually negates his journey thus far. He's always been slightly different as a vampire. He's always had a little bit more emotional capacity than other vamps and a certain sense of honor. When he broke that with the attempted rape, then felt guilty about it, then felt strange for feeling guilty, he was motivated to really question his own nature. (the very thing he is always doing for everyone else.) He goes on a quest to get his power back so the "b*%*ch can see change."

Making Spike human would have given him a soul and stripped him of his power. Spike has already been stripped of power. That's an old plot. By simply giving him a soul, they get to give him a new direction. Give him back his power at the same time making him feel the horror of what he is capable of and understand how Buffy sees him. Maybe Spike will be the one "seeing" the change. How he reacts to the change will be a compelling journey of his own.

If anything I think this was the year of Spike being the toy; in his own words "Buffy's sex slave" (NA). Next year he will have a journey of his own. Bigger and more dramatic than when he was chipped.

Word to the wise, sweeping gender statements... best to avoid.

[> [> We need a wake (spoilers) -- LeeAnn, 06:22:55 05/22/02 Wed

If anything I think this was the year of Spike being the toy; in his own words "Buffy's sex slave" (NA). Next year he will have a journey of his own. Bigger and more dramatic than when he was chipped.

If they meant Spike's journey to be of any significance they would have spread his resouling across more than 4 minutes of screen time. The way they blew off redemption and the resouling shows that they don't consider it important and that Spike is dead and what ever comes back from Africa will NOT have a journey of its own. Spike will be a peripheral character and perky Buffy and her Scoobie pals will be the show's core. And that is clearly what most people want.

[> [> [> Re: We need a wake (spoilers) -- MaeveRigan, 06:39:20 05/22/02 Wed

Disgruntled much? Does the term "cliffhanger" mean anything? It's simply impossible to do *everything*, even in 2 hours (much less with lousy commercials).

I'm pretty sure that ME knows "most people" want to see much more of Spike than as a "peripheral character." Even in B6, he was more than that, and there's a lot of foreshadowing to suggest that he has a larger role to play.

A little patience, a little faith...I think Spike's brief time in the B6 finale is going to pay off bigtime in B7.

We'll see...

[> [> [> [> Re: We need a wake (spoilers) -- Cydney, 06:52:04 05/22/02 Wed

>>I'm pretty sure that ME knows "most people" want to see much more of Spike than as a "peripheral character."

I agree. Besides his personal quest taking him out of Sunnydale, it was good he wasn't there because I think Willow might have killed Spike in her rage.

But I don't believe Spike asked for - or was expecting - to get his soul back. It seemed to be a surprise - that he wanted to be all truly evil again so that he wouldn't have to feel guilty - and maybe not love - Buffy. But, the PTB decided that what the slayer needs is a vampire with a soul and no pesky curse. As a human, Spike wouldn't be strong enough to help Buffy fight. But, I wonder, did he get a soul and lose the chip? Or does he still have the chip, too.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: We need a wake (spoilers) -- maddog, 08:05:35 05/22/02 Wed

How do we know it was a surprise? That shocked look on his face was a reaction to the charge he was getting from the demon. I think deep down he wanted a soul. He's always been one for big talk. Spike could be human...we don't know that yet. If he is the chip won't matter. But it'll be interesting to see if he can fight or if he'll be demoted to the regular Xander status.

[> [> [> Re: We need a wake (spoilers) -- maddog, 08:01:50 05/22/02 Wed

So glad you have inside access to what's being done for next seas...oh wait, you don't. Why don't you chill on bitching about how Joss has wronged the Spike character until you see what he's going to do with him. Cause Spike will never be a peripheral character...he wouldn't allow it. :)

[> [> [> [> Reading the signs (spoilers) -- LeeAnn, 09:00:13 05/22/02 Wed

So glad you have inside access to what's being done for next seas...oh wait, you don't. Why don't you chill on bitching about how Joss has wronged the Spike character until you see what he's going to do with him. Cause Spike will never be a peripheral character...he wouldn't allow it. :)

Hoping you're right and I'm wrong. But these are the people who put FIVE MINUTES OF COMMERCIALS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ATTEMPTED RAPE!!! So revenue is the most important thing to these people. If they thought that Spike's presence would make them more money then he would have appeared in the last three episodes as more than a sidebar. The fact that he didn't tells me they don't consider his character to be one that increases ratings. Since that is the most important thing to them, Spike's absence spells peripheral to me.

More's the pity.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Reading the signs (spoilers) -- maddog, 10:12:56 05/22/02 Wed

Sad but's all about money. Fact of life.

As for Spike's limited time...haven't you heard the phrase less is more?

You gotta have faith. Cause I can't counter what you're saying cause it's based on speculation. Until we know for sure I'd just rather have faith that Joss has big plans for Spike(or William if my theory is correct).

[> [> [> [> [> *cough* ... Network =/= Joss.... just a reminder. - - Solitude1056, 13:47:46 05/22/02 Wed

Joss & his crew know the requirements and limitations of the small-screen process, and that includes commercials. Like it or not, not every episode is going to get the "fully underwritten by" treatment like Schindler's List got. Personally, I prefer watching the episodes with commercials - I've seen them overseas, where the commercials are saved for last, and it definitely changes the pacing. Those commercials serve a handy purpose in changing scenes, drawing out the tension, and giving us all bathroom breaks! That said, the network drives the financial decisions, not Joss - hell, he doesn't even own the damn copyright on the show or the characters. If you want to gripe about that, feel free, but a) this isn't the forum for All Things Commercial About Entertainment, and b) it's not Joss, that's the networks. Complain about them, and better, to them.

[> [> Also female, don't care about Spike (Spoilers) -- Scroll, 06:50:56 05/22/02 Wed

I have to admit, and I know most people won't agree with me, but I really felt the Spike scenes disturbed the flow of the story. Sure, I'm interested in Spike finally getting his due but *not* if it means interrupting the narrative. I really didn't care for the trials he faced (Angel's trials to save Darla were more interesting and given an entire episode). And to see Spike's self-serving quest when I'm trying to concentrate on the Scooby Gang's fight for/against Willow was kinda jarring.

Now, I like Spike and maybe if ME had tried to parallel Spike's desire to be changed (either for ill) with Willow's vengeance, or (for good) with Xander's love, I would've been happy with his scenes. But I really thought the finale should've just ended with Xander & Willow on the hilltop, the climax and resolution, instead of dangling Spike's oh-no- he's-got-a-soul at the end as a cliffhanger. Besides that, loved the finale. Wonderful acting, wonderful writing.

[> [> [> Re: Also female, don't care about Spike (Spoilers) -- clg0107, 14:17:00 05/22/02 Wed

But I really thought the finale should've just ended with Xander & Willow on the hilltop, the climax and resolution,

If they'd done that, though, you wouldn't have gotten the awesome bookend of Buffy crawling out of the hole in the ground into the daylight, to round out the season that began with her crawling out of her grave in the night.

It's literally a new day, for everyone. I loved the way it ended. Cliffhanger and all....


[> [> [> [> Should've been more specific -- Scroll, 14:28:47 05/22/02 Wed

I meant I think they should've ended with the scenes of Sunnydale, the gang being reunited and regrouping there. The cave in Africa was just too intrusive after a Sarah McLachlan song!

[> [> The gender comment, exactly what I said...never speak for somebody else -- maddog, 06:51:00 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> Sorry about the gender comment, next time I wont speak for the female fans.NT -- change, 17:58:47 05/22/02 Wed

[> No Flames Here -- Cacus Watcher, 06:41:29 05/22/02 Wed

I was disappointed in the whole thing. It was a decent couple of episodes in my book, but for me the weakest season- end ever for Buffy, and one of the weakest seasons. I expected 'Two to Go' to drag a little. The next-to-last episode of the season often does (Primeval being a huge exception). It wasn't that bad considering... It was unfortunate that David Fury ended up writing the last episode. I can't say I've ever really hated anything he's written, but I've never been too enthusiatic about anything of his either. Even Jane Espenson, who has written some eps. I hate, would have been a better choice. She has flashes of brilliance I never see in Fury.

I don't necessarily agree with what Change liked and disliked, but I do agree the whole thing felt a tad cheap. It was a glorious comic book story, but I gave up comic books decades ago...

[> [> Re: Comic Books -- Brian, 06:48:19 05/22/02 Wed

You should give comic books a try. They're not just for kids anymore. Great art, complex characters and stories.
To keep it Buffy related, you might want to try the Buffy the Vampire Slayer comics or Frey (the Buffyverse in 300 years).

[> [> [> Re: Comic Books -- CW, 07:04:28 05/22/02 Wed

Thanks for the recommendation... But, I have glanced at one or two in the past few years, and I can definitely say they are not for folks like me. I don't mean to criticize you for enjoying them!

[> [> [> [> Re: Comic Books - No slight taken - We all have different hobbies -- Brian, 07:15:38 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> Re: No Flames Here -- maddog, 08:11:53 05/22/02 Wed

I'm not a comic book person at all, but what I've learned is that the stories they tell...that's the most interesting part. What's underneath.

[> One female fan's opinion (SPOILERS) -- verdantheart, 07:03:29 05/22/02 Wed

Never say never. Be careful what you wish for.

OK, I thought it would be interesting to see what would happen with Spike sans chip but still loving Buffy. However, I can hardly wait until next season waiting to see what the return of William's soul does to our long-suffering vamp. (It's interesting how many people have expressed the opinion that getting a soul was indeed Spike's wish. He obviously thought he was on a quest to do something about the chip. It may be, however, that the soul was his unconscious wish. You'd think after all they've been through, Spike would know enough to phrase his demands more carefully!)

I would have enjoyed more screen time for Spike, but I didn't expect it (it would have been nice to see more of the fighting ...). And I didn't expect him to come back to help save the day. The spotlight was squarely on Willow and the Scoobs' attempts to disarm her.

But on the other hand, this may be the first real cliff- hanger BtVS has had, and it's all Spike (run-away Buffy might be construed as a cliff-hanger, but it's a pretty mild one). This event doesn't serve to wrap things up but rev them up. It seems pretty clear that Spike's (William's?) return to Sunnydale will be much slower than his departure (the usual 3-4 mo summer lag ...).

Never say never (we'll never give another vampire a soul; that would take away Angel's uniqueness). Be careful what you wish for (return me to what I was so I can give Buffy what she deserves).

[> Re: I know I'll be flamed but..... (SPOILERS) -- Cecilia, 07:12:18 05/22/02 Wed

I agree with you on many points. I found myself saying "Come one, already, get it done with" about half way throught the second episode. However I do feel that having Xander "save the day" and the way that he did it, was well worth it. After being so at odds with the characters all season, not really feeling an emotional connection with them, I found myself really touched by Xander's display of love for Willow.

As for Spike, the only two viable options would have been
a) chip removal or b)restoration to his human self. How does "make you as you were" translate into vamp Spike getting his human soul back?

[> [> Re: I know I'll be flamed but..... (SPOILERS) -- maddog, 08:24:19 05/22/02 Wed

He WAS William, a man with a soul. That's how "make you as you were" translates.

[> [> Re: I know I'll be flamed but..... (SPOILERS) -- maddog, 08:25:28 05/22/02 Wed

He WAS William, a man with a soul. That's how "make you as you were" translates.

[> Spike's soul speculation (no spoilers at all) -- LadyStarlight, 08:28:28 05/22/02 Wed

Just for a second, I want to play devil's advocate ....

who says a soul will make Spike good???

Look at the Troika, all human, all souled and pretty not good.

I think that Spike's soul will lead to an interesting S7. Don't forget, he's got no way to prove he's got a soul now. Will any of the SG take his word for it? Not a chance.

Besides, it might be amusing to see a broody Spike for a while. Although he will have to replace the coat. ;)

[> [> Re: Spike's soul speculation (no spoilers at all) - - CW, 09:07:29 05/22/02 Wed

Maybe stop dying his hair, too? ;o)

You got a good idea LS. You really think like a writer. But then you are one. ;o)

[> [> Re: Spike's soul speculation (no spoilers at all) - - maddog, 10:16:10 05/22/02 Wed

A very good point. I hadn't thought of that. Assumed Angel's response would be the norm. But I guess he could be still jaded. No, no broody Spike. We already have one broody vamp.

The Seduction of Power: Willow and Charles Wallace -- Arethusa, 04:17:29 05/22/02 Wed

Looking back, it's amazing how many children's book I've read that have tackled serious themes that resonate for me as an adult. One that came immediately to mind during BtVS's season finale was Madeline L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time; the two had a very similiar ending, and in the end explored a similar theme: the powerful and redemptive nature of love.

In this book two children travel across time to rescue their father, a brilliant physicist, who is under the control of a psyche-sucking machine called IT on another planet. Meg is an mostly ordinary young teen, insecure and prone to get into trouble while protecting her beloved younger brother, a powerful and mentally gifted boy about five years old named Charles Wallace.

After various travails, and helped by three women they think of as witches and another teenager, Meg and Charles Wallace finally reach their imprisioned father. Charles Wallace voluntarily lets his mind become absorped by IT in the hopes of understanding and controlling IT's power, but instead it takes him over too, and he begins crully taunting Meg. Meg, the kid who can't do anything right, has to use her one great ability-her capacity for loving-to save her brother. She gives him her total love and acceptance, and IT must release its hold on Charles Wallace, because the only thing IT can't do is love.

Like Charles Wallace, Willow's greatest abilities lie in a very powerful mind. They both are islolated from their communities by their brilliance, which doesn't help them understand the nature of their abilities, and both have a life-long friendship with a sister or brother-substitute. And both think that they can control power, when instead they become overwhelmed by it. Cold intellect makes them think they can do anything, and an growing arrogance makes them think they can control their powers. Only love, pure and undemanding and all-accepting, save them from death or loss of their souls.

In one of the final scenes of the book, Meg stops trying to outthink Charles Wallace and IT and simply begins telling him over and over that she loves him and always will, no matter what. She finally breaks through and he begins calling her name over and over, finally once again the little boy she loves so much with all her generous heart. Like Xander, Meg is overwhelmed with insecurity, feeling like the odd girl out in a family of unusually gifted people, but also like Xander it is her gift for loving that saves humanity in the end.

[> Spoilers for end of season above; sorry -- Arethusa, 04:19:31 05/22/02 Wed

[> Nice catch! -- MaeveRigan, 05:45:20 05/22/02 Wed

A Wrinkle in Time is one of the greats, a classic of children's lit & (sadly) often on "banned books" lists because of nitwits who can't read past those pesky "witches."

[> I was yelling "It's Charles Wallace" at the TV! -- dream of the consortium, 06:19:58 05/22/02 Wed

Roommate thought I was crazy.

[> I thought the same thing! (Spoilers for Finale) -- Scroll, 06:36:24 05/22/02 Wed

I too remembered Wrinkle in Time when I saw Xander go up against Willow with nothing more than his big ol' love for her. It was beautiful. I like how both "Grave" and the novel show that while Willow/Charles Wallace think the only important thing in the world is pure intellect and power and control, and that human emotions are weaknesses that need to be purged, Xander/Meg use the purity of their love, which is so foreign to their sister/brother, that they are able to break through and save their souls.

Another parallel is Meg & Charles Wallace's father, and Giles. Meg has searched for a long, hard time for her father, and when she finally finds him, she expects that everything will be all right again. But it's not. Her father isn't omnipotent. He can't make everything right again. He can't save Charles Wallace with his intellect, just as Giles can't fight Willow with magick. The protegee is stronger than the mentor. But the father's capacity for love is a legacy Meg has accepted, and like Giles, he hands over the mantle of responsibility to the next generation. It is Meg's love, Xander's love, that finally breaks through to Charles Wallace/Willow.

Some people think that Xander's "I love you" scene was overplayed. I don't, I think it was very real and lovely and fitting. I think his persistent "I love you", without any wavering in his phrasing, demonstrates perfectly his dogged determination to just steamroll over Willow's walls with pure love. Yay Xander! I think he's really earned the title of champion Comfortadore.

[> [> Re: I thought the same thing! (Spoilers for Finale) -- MaeveRigan, 06:53:53 05/22/02 Wed

"Another parallel is Meg & Charles Wallace's father, and Giles. Meg has searched for a long, hard time for her father, and when she finally finds him, she expects that everything will be all right again. But it's not. Her father isn't omnipotent. He can't make everything right again. He can't save Charles Wallace with his intellect, just as Giles can't fight Willow with magick. The protegee is stronger than the mentor. But the father's capacity for love is a legacy Meg has accepted, and like Giles, he hands over the mantle of responsibility to the next generation."

I've gotten the impression that some viewers would have been happier if Buffy (maybe?) had salvaged or defeated Willow somehow, but she can't be two places at the same time, and Dawn also has needed love and a responsible guide. This is the legacy Giles passes on to Buffy/Meg, who finally connects with Dawn. EvilWillow by now has become much to competitive with Buffy to accept love from her. But Willow has never seen Xander as a threat (who has?), and can't now, hard as she tries.

It's a plot that's true to the characters as they've been developed through the entire series, as well as having the nice parallel to _Wrinkle_.

Thanks, Scroll.

[> [> [> Re: I thought the same thing! (Spoilers for Finale) -- DEN, 09:28:07 05/22/02 Wed

Even had Tara been there, a "lover" in the conventional sense could not have done what Xander did. That took an essentially different kind of whole-souled emotional bonding. This time the bricklayer picked up a strike!

[> [> [> It also fits within "the evil within" context of this season -- yez, 10:02:41 05/22/02 Wed

In a season were the SG learned that humans can be their own worst enemies, it was fitting that the worst of humanity was overcome by the best of it -- just like it normally takes the gang supernatural forces to overcome supernatural forces.

Great catch on Charles Wallace, btw. Loved those books. :)


[> there is such a thing as a tesseract! (context-free spoiler for grave) -- anom, 20:37:32 05/22/02 Wed

Hey, maybe that's how Xander got to where Willow was!

Great idea, Arethusa & like-thinking great minds--I wouldn't have thought of it, but it's obvious once you point it out.

Someone's post awhile back complaining about some of Buffy's flaws did make me think of another scene from A Wrinkle in Time. Meg & her companions ask the witches (or whiches? been a long time since I read it) to help provision them for their journey to help Meg & Charles Wallace's father. One of them says, "Meg, I give you your faults." Some of the same things she's often criticized for--like stubbornness--stand her in very good stead in the situations they face. Once in a while the same is true of Buffy.

Another round of --------, for everybody (Spoilers to S6 finale) -- Tach, 06:04:17 05/22/02 Wed

Allright, this is my last post until S7 begins. I will respond to this post, but I think that this should be it for a little while (as many others will do the same). I would like to pay my compliments to ME for a wonderful season; and the culmination was well played.

There are those out there who are going to criticize both the season itself, as well as the finale. Perhaps they didn’t get what they wanted, but then again, that’s not precisely ME’s mission with BTVS it it?

Last night’s episode did a ver nice job of cleanly wrapping up the season, from many areas; however, the primary one I see is that of redemption.

Let’s start with Giles. Giles left, he abandoned everybody, both the characters and us. (My one complaint about last night was that I didn’t get my “Oh dear” from Giles, but that’s about it). When Giles returned, he was able to make peace with himself and Buffy. He was prepared to give the ultimate sacrifice. Through his return, and his actions, he was able to redeem himself. Not by saving the day, but by sharing some sweet moments with Buffy, and that finally, she was able to understand why he left.

Next: Anya. Although not truly a path of redemption for the An-An girl, she was able to make some headway in explaining herself to Xander. She lost a lot in this episode, and her healing has only begun. However, her “I’m blonde” comment as well as returning to be with Giles when she thought the world was going to end, were both pretty darn redeeming.

Next: Jonathan and Andrew; I thought that it was nice to see Jonathan take charge, stand up for himself and fight down Andrew. He was clear, and held the overall arc of the season by saying “Grow up”. Not too much on that, or any of this short rant, but hey; it’s been a long year. :)

Next: Willow. Well, she has changed, and I am sure we are going to see a lot of that next season. Her killing a human and all. However, she was able to feel again, and through the magic of returning hair color – she was as well redeemed. She accepted her pain, instead of moving to the more quick and easy anger. What I though was exceptionally nice about the overplayed “I love you” scene, was the Xander love aspect. The fact that he brought it back to kindergarten, and that nobody else could have brought her back from the edge. Remember, Willow never really had the love of her parents; and honestly, probably didn’t care. However, throughout the whole show, even though she’s a lesbian, she has always wanted Xander’s love. She was redeemed, or grew up, or moved into another phase of her life, through the final acceptance of the one person who has mattered the most to her throughout her life. Nice.

Next: The Xan-Xan man. Hey, what can I say? We finally got to see Xander save the world, do good, be the hero; win. We’ve seen him sacrifice, and fight and get beat up; but we’ve never seen him win. Nice.

Next: Dawn. Very cool. Nice to see her fight, and her involvement with Buffy, good scene seeing the Summers women fighting back to back. Somewhat cheesy? Sure, who cares, it worked. Nice scene where they reminded us of The Key; with Willow, kind of harsh, but cool. Overall, although not down on Dawn, she wasn’t quite as annoying fighting with Buffy, cool to see.

Next: The Buffster. Her acceptance of this world, through both her speech to Willow and her confession and laughing with Giles was very will played. She’s done; her apology to Dawn finalized a nice Joseph Conrad mythological moment. I can’t wait to see her next season. The angst is gone; well played. Especially the laughing scene with Giles; nicely healing.

Finally: Spike. His little thirty second spots throughout the show left a lot to the imagination, however, I tried to pay as much attention as I could to what was said during his Herculean journey of redemption. (Again, in classic mythology, redemption does not come through a long and grueling path and journey of personal discovery. It comes by passing tests; the rest doesn’t matter. So I think the testing and reward part worked in this aspect.) At some point, off screen, we should all be very aware that Spike asked specifically for his soul back. “Bitch is gonna see a change” works in this aspect as well. The end pieces put this together for me; with the “So I get what I came for” and the demon’s response “Yes, I will return your soul”; very much indicate that at some point Spike specified that it was a soul he wanted. Spike’s aside of “Buffy’s gonna get what she deserves” fills in this aspect with the overall arc of the season and their relationship. With his “It’s just nice to see you happy” and the “I’d do anything” attitude. He’s right, Buffy does love him, I think more than she’s loved any of the other men in her life, but it can’t work, not with him being evil. I look forward to seeing how next season opens with this whole thing; it should be nifty.

All in all, it was a great season with a nice ending. Well done, well played and well performed. I’m sorry for those of you who disagree with my findings, but another round of redemption for all.

I will make a side note that it was very nicely done, all of the couples that there were at the end of the show; with the single exception of Spike. Perhaps this is foreshadowing, but we’ll wait and see.

Shadowkat, Doyle, Linda DeLurked and all; have a great summer.

[> One decent episode doesn't make up for a generally crappy season (spoilers) -- A.C.S., 06:26:09 05/22/02 Wed

Okay, I'll have to admit that I actually enjoyed the season finale. It had good writing, interesting plot, and nice surprises -- I cheered out loud when Giles appeared, something I can't ever remember doing while watching a television show. The Spike resolution was nice and needed and long overdue.

However, I'm still cheesed about the rest of the 20-plus episodes this season, which were generally dull, badly written, and sometimes plain dumb (the "magic equals addiction" metaphor being the worst), with general abandonment of continuity of metaphysics and character.

Storylines were stretched way beyond their natural lives to the point that I wanted to throw things whenever Buffy and Spike appeared together in a scene -- oh, yay, more Spuffy sex, more wedding hijinks, more Dawn whining, more Willow sniveling (all with angst!).

I know it has become a tradition to stretch the "big bad" across the whole season, but in this season, especially, the Legion of Dim was just not worth it -- they were idiots and they were not interesting and it was inexcusable for Buffy not to clean them up after two or three episodes, at the latest. The fact that they weren't even the big threat in the finale proves the point.

[> [> Re: One decent episode doesn't make up for a generally crappy season (spoilers) -- ANGELINA, 06:56:07 05/22/02 Wed


[> [> Re: One decent episode ... -- Robert, 07:05:09 05/22/02 Wed

Just to be clear, are you saying that in the entire season 6 of BtVS, there was ONLY one decent episode?

[> [> [> Re: One decent episode ... -- A.C.S., 08:31:13 05/22/02 Wed

Well, I haven't gone back through each and every episode in my mind in order to pick out whether there were a few _good_ episodes, but that's part of the point, isn't it? Nothing stands out in my mind as being immediately superior to the others. Part of the problem is, of course, all the story arcs that were stretched out over multiple episodes -- everything runs together in a mediocre haze.

I really hope that Mutant Enemy gives up on that crutch and goes back to writing good stories, figuring out from the material how many episodes it is worth, and then limiting them appropriately and not stretching them over the whole season. Sometimes an idea, even if it is a good idea, doesn't carry for more than only one hour, you know. Mutant Enemy has just been plain lazy, basically coming up with two or three episodes' worth of stories and stretching them over the whole season.

It wasn't halfway into the season before I was sick of most of the storylines (to repeat myself) -- Spuffy sex, wedding hijinks, magic addiction, Dawn whining, and Legion of Dim idiocy.

There may have been moments when the actors were able to make good with the material for a scene or two (I have to admit that sometimes the delivery was good, although sometimes I think that Nicholas Brendon is the one member of the cast whose acting skills have _diminished_ over time, but then, look at the material he's had to work with lately), but there was way too much repetition. How many times did they show the same scenes over and over again with Buffy-Spike, Buffy-Dawn, Xander-Anya, etc? We're not idiots, here. We only need to see a scene once to get the idea. One might try an experiment -- take all the scenes from the whole season, cut out all the repetition, and see how many hours we're left with.

The stand-alone storylines were also for the most part uninspiring, Buffy's insane-asylum fantasy possibly being the sole exception. Come on, the penis-head monster at the Double Meat Palace?

Of course, a lot of these weaknesses have been around ever since Season 4, but Season 6 noticeably lacked the kind of occasional moments of pure pleasure that occasionally spiced up seasons 4 and 5. Xander, Willow, Anya, Dawn, Spike -- all of them spent too much time this season being plain dead weights in the stories, becoming one-note characters.

[> [> [> [> Re: weaknesses since season 4 -- Robert, 09:48:43 05/22/02 Wed

>> "Of course, a lot of these weaknesses have been around ever since Season 4, but Season 6 noticeably lacked the kind of occasional moments of pure pleasure that occasionally spiced up seasons 4 and 5."

Okay, just to be clear. Does this mean that you have not liked BtVS since season 3 and, if so, why are you still watching it?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: weaknesses since season 4 -- A.C.S., 10:21:58 05/22/02 Wed

> Okay, just to be clear. Does this mean that you have not
> liked BtVS since season 3 and, if so, why are you still
> watching it?

Oh, the "America -- Love It Or Leave It" argument. Good one. Please, take a look at what I actually say and kindly not jump to unjustified or irrelevant conclusions.

Even if it were the case that I have "not liked BtVS since season 3," I don't think I have to justify my continued watching of the show and having opinions about it.

Art exists in order to be examined and critiqued. So, I watch it and analyze it simply because it's there.

Now ask me about all the shows I don't bother to watch and have opinions about.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: weaknesses since season 4 -- Tach, 11:41:09 05/22/02 Wed

I will concur, that there have been weak episodes intermittently spread throughout the season. However, I think that this has happened throughout the series. (I mean C'Mon, the Praying Mantis Teacher was not phenomenal).

However, we all have our own opinions. Mine is that this year, they took a different and necessary approach.

Why necessary?

Again with the how many apocolypses can we have.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: weaknesses since season 4 -- A.C.S., 11:46:20 05/22/02 Wed

Good point, except at the end there they couldn't resist throwing in another apocalypse, could they?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: weaknesses since season 4 -- Tach, 11:51:02 05/22/02 Wed

Yeah, I agree with you there.

I think that was too much to overcome; but then again, in their defense, we would not have accepted the season without one.

[> [> [> [> Re: One decent episode ... -- Yellowork, 16:57:52 05/22/02 Wed

Hmm. I reckon you have some kind of a point there. Up until the end of Season Three, the series expanded like the universe, sprawling all over the place, chaotic and joyous, but that is not going to go on forever. They were bold with Season Four, moving on and introducing new characters; and on balance the boldness paid off. Season Four has some of my favorite episodes; but it is at this point that the main on-going plot each season has begins running into difficulties. I think the problem was less the concept of the Initiative, so much as the way episodes begin to melt together a little too much; the big flaw being about mid- season. It did not help that the character of Riley was somewhat misplaced when they tried doing 'hero' too straight, but there are other odd characterizations in earlier seasons. The individual episodes in this season are still a delight more often than not though; lets hear it for Seeing Blue, Wild at Heart, This Year's Girl, Restless and Superstar, amongst others. The problem got worse for Season Five, as the main on-going plot of the season was made up of two connected strand; first, the strand that concerned Buffy's family and second, the one that centred around the weird mythology of the Key, the Beast, the Hell-gods, the Minions, the Monks and so on. Because there was more in there, it follows that more episodes seemed to me to 'melt together'. I am never sure about 'The Gift'; partly a result of the themes being screwed up by the weird structure. 'Restless' is a better episode, weirder and funnier, as are 'Triangle', 'Fool For Love', 'The Body' and 'Crush'. I think the idea of the Slayer should have been developed more than Buffy's family; or perhaps we should just have had Buffy and her mother, with Joyce's death closer to the end of the season. Dawn could have been presented to Joyce by the Monks or some other authority, stressing the important role the fostering might be; and she and Buffy grown gradually closer over the season. This would have made more sense; I suspect that in the acting and writing they tried to show how Buffy did not originally *feel* for Dawn, that the Monks had not changed her feelings, and that she develops a natural attachment to her over the course of the season; but the inner workings or metaphysics of this are not made clear enough if you ask me. This leaves an awkwardness which is not overcome by great performances and writing in particular episodes; the structure is wrong, and Buff has always been best when the overall structure and the individual episode is balanced.

As for Season Six, the obvious removal of Joss to some extent or another from proceedings is the end, I am afraid. From the outset, the inherent absurdity, silliness and yet seriousness have been marshalled by this one man, and alone I doubt if any if the others could carry it off. No worries though; it is unusual for a show to keep being at all decent after two or three years, especially if it is in an inventive vein such as this; look how short a space of time it took 'Ally McBeal' to back down from its early innovation. I am not even going to begin with more genre stuff, most of which is still-born unfortunately. Ah well, I hear Russell T. Davies is trying to get a sci-fi show made ...

[> [> Re: One decent episode doesn't make up for a generally crappy season (spoilers) -- Arystocrat, 10:55:53 05/22/02 Wed

I'm new here, but I had to jump in long enough to agree with A.C.S.

This season has had few highlights and mostly seemed to be about wallowing in redundant pity-parties. Not in and of itself bad programming provided it has a point somewhere. I think they took too long to get to the point and the journey in between was just poorly produced.

This season suffered from mediocre writing and editing and sometimes even the actors couldn't save it. (Older and Far Away comes to mind as a real stinker.) It got so bad this year that I actually stopped watching and just read the wildfeed for a while in the middle.

One of the other annoying things was that the show seemed to turn into basically a chick show. There's a difference between "Girl Power" and male bashing. The guys this year came across to me as castrated losers that really are nothing without their female counterparts.

I did like the finale, though. A nice return to glory. I hope it lasts until Season 7.


[> Re: Another round of --------, for everybody (Spoilers to S6 finale) -- ANGELINA, 06:57:28 05/22/02 Wed




[> Re: Another round of --------, for everybody (Spoilers to S6 finale) -- verdantheart, 07:25:43 05/22/02 Wed

I agree with you overall, but I still believe that it was clear that Spike didn't realize that "what he came for" was his soul. Even in real life we go places thinking we come to get one thing only to come away with another. He thought he was on a quest to get his chip out when actually he was on a quest to restore his human soul. The change Spike thought he was initiating and the one that he got were very different things. It's the usual MO for ME.

[> [> Agreed -- Sophist, 08:24:20 05/22/02 Wed

[> [> Also agree--I was surprised when my friend thought that's what he asked for! -- Dyna, 09:03:39 05/22/02 Wed

It's weird how people see things so differently. I thought the whole thing was played as Spike not realizing what he was going to get. The bit where he didn't realize the first trial wasn't the whole thing emphasized how much he didn't know about what he was doing.

My friend took the position Tach does, that Spike must have asked for his soul, and that the dialog as written was designed to keep this unclear. But I don't see it--"She's gonna get what she deserves" may be ambiguous, but it's not *that* ambiguous. I can't really stretch my sense of language to go as far as hearing "she's going to get what she deserves: I'm going to get my soul back" in there.

[> [> [> Re: Also agree--I was surprised when my friend thought that's what he asked for! -- Tach, 11:48:24 05/22/02 Wed

Try it this way.

"I hate to see the Summers' women take it on this chin so much is all."

"It's nice to see you happy, even without me."

"I just want you to be happy."

"You can't give her what she deserves and you know it." - directed towards Captain Cardboard

"She loves me, she wants to be with me, I want to be with her, we deserve happiness, more so, she deserves happiness"

She's going to get what she deserves.

[> [> [> [> homecoming will be fun -- rose, 12:37:49 05/22/02 Wed

I wonder does Spike get a clean slate now?

i do hope he dosent go to LA and deals hes usually pretty good at that and i wonder if Buffy will belive that it is true and if hell even get a chance to speak they did not part on speaking tearms after all

[> [> Much agreement from me too... -- Rob, 11:17:08 05/22/02 Wed

I think Spike looked very, very surprised and very, very (pardon my French) pissed before the demon struck him with the magic. I don't think Spike wanted his soul back. I think he wanted just what he said he wanted--to "make the bitch pay" for what she did. But he didn't word his wish correctly, a lesson we've learned time and again is a no-no in the Buffyverse. Older and Far Away anyone? Maybe it could be argued that subconsciously, he wanted his soul back, but I don't think he was aware of this desire at all.

If he had consciously wanted a soul, I think his words would have been more around the lines of he'll show Buffy how much he really loves her. His words sounded like he wanted to harm her.


[> Agreed. Good post Tach! -- shadowkat, 08:37:45 05/22/02 Wed

I'll probably sign off for awhile too after this week.
Life beckons.

May finish my spike/Willow parallel first
if you're on the boards in next few weeks you'll see

After much thought - I think you may be correct on Spike
he did want that soul - he just had a funky way of asking for it.

His trials as I posted below - worked as wonderful metaphors for the trails of Xander/Buffy and Willow.

1. Xander fighting the fire of vengeance, standing up to it.
Spike stands up to the fire of vengeance as well as the
fire of passion - that can consume you. first warrior.

2. Buffy fighting the depression of the grave and grief,
by no longer protecting Dawn and letting her fight by her side, she effectively fights off grief and depression as
represented by the wall demons conjured by Willow. Spike
similarly slays the demons of his depression and grief
and pain of loss.

3. Willow fighting the parasitic all consuming nature of rage and hate and self-loathing. The dark magic crawls through her like her rage threatening to eat her whole with love of Xander - and empathy for pain of others provided by Gile's douse, she is able to conquer this. Just as Spike defeats the scarab beetles that represent the demonic rage that threatens to consume him and makes him hurt or want to hurt the woman he loves. Until he defeats it - she can't trust him.

The season ends on three levels:
1. Buffyverse - soul canon, girl against the world,
order over chaos wins
2. Metaphor - herculean tasks - each character survives completeing the heros journey
3. Reality - each character realizes when you grow up, you have to take responsibility for your actions, laugh at the ridiculousness of life, and not let anger, grief, depression, vengeance or rage consume you. It's okay
to make mistakes - as long as you learn from them.

Great Season - Probably one of the best IMO. Certainly
my favorite. Looking forward to Season 7.

[> Re: More language from finale to support this idea -- Farstrider, 09:47:19 05/22/02 Wed

Spike also said "Bitch thinks she's better than me" a few times. The reason Buffy thinks she is better than Spike is because of a soul -- he might be thinkinh that if he had one, then she would be less superior to him. On the other hand, getting the chip removed wouldn't make Spike "better" than Buffy.

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