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Thoughts on the Buffy Season Finale (Spoilers S4,5,6 to Finale.) Part One of Two. -- Age, 19:08:00 05/28/02 Tue

It really doesn't need pointing out that the finale harkens back to the season opener. One of the most obvious allusions to the two- part opener is the fireball which Willow launches at the two nerds. This alludes to the little light that Tara sent to get Xander and Willow(two former nerds) out of the dark wood. Of course, Tara's death is the catalyst for the events that get the Scoobies out of the dark wood, foreshadowed in 'Bargaining' by the light she sends in(Tara's more adult approach to life would have to be transferred symbolically to the Scoobs later in a season about oh grow up.) But Willow's fireball is the antithesis of Tara's bright light; burning with her hatred, it is an allusion to the hell of 'Bargaining.' The fireball does the opposite of Tara's little bright light by getting Buffy into the woods, or at least into the cemetery within the dark woods, alluding perhaps to the opener also and to Buffy's resurrection.

Willow's actions in the season opener were, of course, double edged in that Buffy needed to be brought back to life if we are to see the stint in heaven as a fond memory of adolescence and being looked after, as the equation of it with the awakening to the asylum life in 'Normal Again' implies. Willow's actions in the season finale lead also to Buffy's epiphany about living in the world again. There is, as the song at the end of the season finale suggests, this linking of death and rebirth.

In the opening ep, the Scoobs, mostly pushed by Willow, bring Buffy back from the result of her suicide/heroic act/grand adolescent gesture to save the world in a ceremony which alludes to the Fall from the Garden of Eden myth with the snake emerging from Willow's mouth. Willow has chosen to use power to deal with her pain as the snake emerging from her mouth may symbolize her having replaced a statement of her feelings with magic; this is, as I have suggested in other postings, Whedon's way of showing that while our society has changed somewhat(in that women do have more power), we all, in emerging from a patriarchal society, men and women, still have a pattern of behaviour and beliefs based on a power structure; Whedon may be suggesting that it isn't enough for women to take up the gauntlet of power(an allusion to Gwendolyn Post), but that both men and women have to recognize the value of approaching life from what has been seen traditionally as feminine(and therefore in the past devalued and vilified.) It isn't enough or even healthy for women to simply become men. Both the masculine and feminine have to be recognized as having value.

In this way, as part of the theme of growing up, with a generalisation to society as a whole, the female characters in the season finale, Buffy and Dawn, fight with swords, and then Buffy refers to Dawn in the future as beautiful and powerful; and Giles and Xander, the male characters, offer traditionally feminine ways of putting a stop to a young woman who has come under the spell, so to speak, of power. There is a balance between these two pairings, symbolizing perhaps the need for balance between the masculine and feminine. Indeed, if we look at the male and female pairings in the season finale there is a representation of balance in Anya/Giles, Xander/Willow, and in the antithesis between Buffy/Dawn and Jonathon/Andrew, with the movement being forward to new life and adulthood with the two female characters, and banishment for the two boys(to undergo, I presume, their season of hell on the run leading to adulthood.)

The masculine image of power in the season opener that we see in the phallic symbol of the snake is repeated and made larger in the season finale in the satanic steeple itself, rising from the earth in an erect position. It is then reinforced by the Eve figure being held prisoner by the snake around the image of the she-demon statue on the steeple itself. This is Eve updated. The fall from Eden was intimated in the season opener as the change from adolescence to adulthood was abruptly made. But in the season finale Eve has become the modern young woman open to power, but having come under its sway.

Leading on from the Eden imagery, there have been some postings about possible Christian content of the season finale, and to be honest my knowledge of Christian texts is limited; so please forgive me if what I'm about to say is out of context, but the following verses came to mind when watching the finale:

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

If these items of scripture have not been taken out of context too much then we may have a representation in the season finale of certain Christian ideas, but reworked to serve a humanist doctrine as we can see in two key items: firstly, Buffy's recent insistence on the laws of man; and secondly, Buffy's opening to the world, her eschewing of heaven and of being in the earth, with her wanting rather to show her off-spring, Dawn, the world. Eternal life for human beings, if this is not a religious statement, comes in accepting ones corporeal life and connection to the next generation through which one will live for ever, if only in memory. This is the importance of Buffy's seeing Dawn, of seeing the human being. As I suggested in an analysis of season five, without remaining human, all that is left of the chain of life and death is the animal. There may also be in Buffy's choice a representation of a balance restored in her life, neither above nor below.

The use of the Eden myth, the expulsion from the garden of adolescent innocence and the promise of (humanist) eternal life have been worked into this season with the Scoobs walking through the darkness and the flames of hell.(And if we remember back that far there was a kind of abrupt change in view as Buffy's heroic leap off the tower, allowed because she was still an adolescent, changed suddenly into a suicide.) It is a flaming sword(?) that guards the way back to Eden, and I can't help thinking that the swords that Buffy and Dawn use in the finale aren't an allusion to this, just as the Scoobs walk through the fire and let it burn as the song goes. Certainly it seems that Buffy and Dawn walk arm in arm to a place Eden-like, yet part of the world, at the end of the season finale.

The Christian ideas that I mentioned above refer to the situation with Buffy and Willow, but are more immediately relevant to Willow. The meek, those who eschew power, will inherit the earth because, as we have been told through the season, the dark magic/power(wages of the sin of power; the sin of Adam perhaps that Christ came to redeem) will consume you and then consume the world. Those who are not meek will be consumed by the power/magic and will not be around to inherit the earth, indeed the way of power would lead to a scorched earth policy as a means of dealing with pain. The meek however will be there to offer another way of dealing with pain, one that values the other and oneself and offers an emotional connection, and an arena of trust. Hence Xander, the carpenter(Christ figure?), the builder, the meek, the human being that Willow must find in herself again, who, as foreshadowed in 'Restless,' is the one to catch up(literally catching up to Willow), the last who comes first and saves the world by helping Willow to save herself.

End Part One.

[> Re: Thoughts on the Buffy Season Finale (Spoilers S4,5,6 to Finale.) Part Two of Two. -- Age, 19:18:16 05/28/02 Tue

At the end of season five we had the grand gesture, the adolescent gesture of Buffy diving off to save the world. In this year's season finale, we have Xander simply being himself. He couldn't save the world with his blood or with anything supernatural. Willow, about to deal with her pain and the pain of the whole human race through eradicating it in one big sweeping gesture of power, is stopped by Xander simply acknowledging that he can't stop her, that, in effect, growing up is understanding we are limited beings in a world much out of our control, but that we do have some choice and awareness of our condition, and that within the parameters of who we are, we can just simply be human. Stopping Willow's grand gesture by just being a human being is the quintessential symbol of growing up. Whedon could not have had it any other way. In this season through eps like 'Gone' Whedon has equated coming to life with taking responsibility and growing up.

In fact if we take the Dawn story from season five to the present we see possibly the idea that while we as human beings have no control over what we are, where we came from, the culture we were taught or our upbringing(as symbolized by Dawn's having been made into an adolescent), when we get to a certain age we have to take responsibility for ourselves anyway...or someone else will do that for us, and we are back to a patriarchal society. At some point growing up is coming to terms with who we are and our culture, instead of simply, like animals or robots(hence the plethora of robots in these recent seasons,) acting out of the pattern we were born into through DNA or culture. In taking responsibility we become, like Dawn with her shoplifting, a human being and not just remain a thing. In taking responsibility, which is a form of awareness, consciousness, we gain possession, even if this is tenuous and ephemeral, of what we call ourselves. We come to life and we grow up. This may be, as I suggested in earlier postings, one reason why Willow's power trip became a drug metaphor: to reinforce the idea that awareness and taking responsibility, like recovery for addicts, is a daily practice.

Death then, spiritual or human in Whedon's case, is what is to be avoided for these Scoobies, especially Willow and Buffy. The snake imagery of the Eden myth is not equated only with hell, but with death; the snake crawls on the ground and is of the earth, just as the satanic temple is in the earth and Buffy has to crawl out of the earth in the season finale. Both characters have been in grave danger of losing themselves, dying as people(the equation of the drug metaphor as all consuming and Buffy's all consuming passion until nothing is left reinforce the theme of death being the danger.) This harkens back to the basic metaphor of the series, the one that signifies arrested development, the vampire, the dead person walking, the adolescent perpetual Peter Pan. And it isn't then just a coincidence that with Willow's power-based death throes and Buffy's fight literally with the earth that wants to reclaim her(ashes to ashes and dust to dust) that Spike the vampire gets back his soul and becomes not just simply of the human realm, but moreover a human who has taken responsibility for himself and has come back to life, ie grown up.

Using the thematic imperative of the age(21) of his characters, Whedon generalizes from the personal and very painful events of the characters to society in general. There is the adolescent outsider, Warren, who has been picked on in his adolescent years as any weaker male would be in a male dominated society because strength and power are valued, and the weaker are simply devalued as feminine. Hence Warren's need to gain power through the orbs, symbolic of the source of testosterone, if my poor memory sewrves me correctly, and his projection of self loathing onto women, the symbols, obviously, of the feminine he loathes in himself. His actions come to affect most in a negative way the members of the traditionally outcast and vilified group, homosexuals, symbols in a male dominated society of the feminized.

This is not just a coincidence, but a means of showing how if one doesn't accept responsibility for ones actions, one simply continues the pattern and perpetuates the pain. Warren kills Tara and abandons Andrew, the latter referred to as whathisname not only for humour, but to show that no one knows him truly as a human being, unable to come out of the closet, unable to declare himself through his name. Warren's shooting Tara in the back and its being an accident just reinforce in metaphorical terms how easily and thoughtlessly people can be killed, not literally, as this series is only fiction, but metaphorically, as people who live and think and love. It's just that simple to dismiss a person and they are dead. Like Warren, the adolescent who doesn't take responsibility, we don't look into our own belief system and pattern, and truly decide, to the best that we can, what we do want to believe or not; and in doing so, we don't see, as Warren literally didn't in Tara's death, that we could be killing another human being.

Xander did see into his own pattern, but too late. He saw into the pattern of his upbringing but he did hurt Anya. It's hard to see into these patterns, especially if the basic premise of the series is societal denial. In fact to extend the theme of seeing, the Scoobs weren't really seeing one another throughout the season until the end; this works well with the extended metaphor of the dark wood as in a dark wood you can't see well at all. This is perhaps one reason why the revelation of truth early in the season about Buffy and her stint in heaven came in an episode that was oral, not visual(ie OMWF.)

And, in the season finale, Buffy finally sees Dawn(and if Dawn does represent Buffy in some way, seeing herself again.) This is a play on words, as the dawn of the day brings the light by which we can see. But, Dawn as human being has been in question given her dual identity as thing(key) and human being. By seeing Dawn as a human being, Buffy may be putting to rest the metaphorical power of the key to open up the door of hell. This is indeed what happened last season, with Dawn opening up the dark side. Throughout season six she has acted figuratively to open the dark side for all the Scoobies: she was with Willow when the latter goes to see Rack; she locks everyone in the house, exposing Anya's fears about her mortality and she is central in the wedding episode, exposing Xander's darker side. In getting out of the night, the dark wood, Dawn loses her role as key by being seen as a human being. This is reinforced antithetically by Willow's threat to turn Dawn back into the green light, the key, she once was, to effectively kill Dawn the human being. Perhaps in naming Dawn as such Whedon had the idea of using this period of darkness as a means of getting the Scoobies to a new day, a new period of light, using the key to unlock the dark side as a means of getting to this rebirth in adulthood of sorts.

One last thing:

I might add that instances of the grown up world, intruding into the fairytale demon world of Sunnydale or being symbolized can be found in the use of the gun(while also phallic) when Tara got shot; and with Giles's death in the season finale representing the end of adolescence as he has been the father figure. Also, the virtual destruction of the Magic Shop was necessary for a couple of reasons: firstly, the magic shop has through its previous owners being killed been associated with death; indeed, to reinforce this there is a death mask on one of the walls. Last year this figured prominently in the theme of literal death as Joyce died and the reality of life and death was presented to Buffy. This year, with magic being a drug and a source of power, the Magic Box can then be seen to symbolize a figurative death, tying in with what I was saying above about Willow and Buffy; secondly, as a symbol of magic it had to be destroyed to some extent to symbolize growing up. I might add that in the scenes of destruction one can see Buddha figures on the shelves. This may be deliberate, suggesting through buddhist reincarnation, rebirth.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

I just want to end by thanking Masquerade and all the posters for this great board; the quantity and quality of postings and essays are staggering. Unfortunately other commitments make it hard for me to post much. I had wanted to continue my posts on the links or connection of content between the Buffy and Angel eps, but I find I do not have time enough.


[> [> KABOOM! Great essay Age! -- Kerri, 19:45:46 05/28/02 Tue

[> [> Whenever you *do* get time, we'll be listening, Age. Thanks! Wonderful as usual! -- OnM, 19:59:27 05/28/02 Tue

[> [> [> Re: Yes, please find time! Would love an A:tS analysis! - - Scroll, 20:13:32 05/28/02 Tue

[> [> Re: Magic Box Owners' Untimely Deaths -- Rob, 20:19:52 05/28/02 Tue

Actually, when I originally heard, last season, the spoiler that someone would die, I immediately thought Giles, since he was the Magic Box owner, and I figured that would be ME's little dig. Yet again, the owner of the Magic Box is killed.

Of course, it ended up being Buffy...but still, that is what first came to mind, for me, at least.


[> [> [> Re: Little Bright Light Spoilers for S6 to finale; AS3 to finale. -- Age, 23:08:03 05/30/02 Thu

When Tara sent in her little bright light to guide Xander and Willow out of the dark forest in 'Bargaining' I figured that later in the year she'd have to be killed. If the year is about oh grow up, then the guide to adulthood would have to depart, having transferred symbolically her adulthood to those she's guiding. Of course it went further than that, and the death wasn't just symbolic, but part of the sequence of events leading to the finale.

One thing about the connection between the little bright light and Willow's fireball is the fact that both were air born. Throughout the first part of the season star images could be seen in every episode, reinforcing the dark wood/night motif. But this harkened back to Buffy's stint in heaven, associated with adolescence, and I can't help wondering if Whedon was reiteraing this idea by using the fireball and Willow's mode of transport in the air.

Also, in 'Bargaining' Tara was referred to as Tinker Bell. Is it just a coincidence that Angel's snowglobe world of the hotel is cracked/shattered and out pops Connor as Peter Pan the Lost Boy, and in the 'Buffy' ep bearing the same number, Willow's world/room is shattered through the glass as Tara is shot? (The Price and Seeing Red.) Peter Pan fits in nicely with the theme of growing up and/or not wanting to, emerging out of the Never Never Land to the 'real' world as Tara the guide to adulthood departs. And we get a reiteration of the idea of a price having to be paid in conjunction with Tara's death when using dark magic.

Anyway, just a thought.

One last thing. There's a song called 'Basement Apartment' by Sarah Harmer that has nothing to do with 'Buffy' at all, but in the intro the singer laughs and it sounds similar to Tara. It's kind of nice to hear.

Thanks for the reply.


[> [> I was wondering when Buddha would pop up again. (Spoilers finale) -- Traveler, 20:21:41 05/28/02 Tue

By preventing Willow from destroying the world, Xander managed to shatter the barrier between her light and dark selves. Thus the old Willow was destroyed and a new Willow has been born, one that knows of the evil in her own heart.

[> [> Fantastic, Age -- Rahael, 20:47:20 05/28/02 Tue

Just keeping this alive until I can respond properly!

[> [> Wow! oh WOW!!! -- Drizzt, 21:10:01 05/28/02 Tue

When I first came to this site it was wonderfull to talk to people I consider as my intilectual equals...

Age, in your case I am in awe...

I might be a genius in one specialized feild of knowladge(unknown if I am merely slightly delusional or if my theories are valid)...age I consider YOU to be a genius of a different feild of knowladge;)

[> [> [> Grrr! -- Drizzt, 21:56:03 05/28/02 Tue

I had a three paragraph post DONE, then when I was going to post it the internet cut off.

Short version; I considered writing a letter to Howard Stern asking him to do a websearch for "SmorgasBorQ"

One of the reasons I did not do that is that if millions of people suddenly became aware of me this site would indirectly (I have mentioned several times elsware that this is my favorite internet site) lose it's endearing qualities of a small virtual community of regulars, and of course consistantly impressive commentary. Urrg! if Howard's fans were aware of this site the average commentary and intillect of posters here would go down.

This site is good just the way it is where only a small percentage of the world populance is aware of it.

[> [> It looks great! -- Deeva, 22:55:37 05/28/02 Tue

Only I had to stop because it's getting late. I'll have to wait until tomorrow and print it off at work to read. Can't wait! At least I'll know that my morning will start off right!

[> [> Sigh. I love this Board. -- ponygirl, 07:16:17 05/29/02 Wed

Fabulous essays like Age's just make me glad I found my way to this board. Nothing insightful to add right now, but I just want to echo the thanks to Masq and everyone for increasing my appreciation of the show enormously and waking up some long snoozing parts of my brain.

[> [> really insightful post! -- redcat, 12:56:07 05/29/02 Wed particularly intrigued by the resonances you explore between early S6 eps and later ones. Thanks for a wonderful read!

[> [> Fantastic post! Love the symbolic interpretation! -- Exegy, 13:48:25 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Amazing Post! Thank You. And nice catch on the Buddha figures. -- Jane's Addiction, 20:06:42 05/29/02 Wed

Really can't add much to this. But, regarding the destruction of the Magic Box, I really couldn't help but see the parallel with the destruction of the High School in Graduation Day. Apparently Joss likes to herald major life transitions with big catharsis- fueled explosions and the destruction of a familiar - if not always comfortable -"home base" of sorts.

Of course, the foe in Graduation Day was their worst nightmare version of the quintessential patriarchal figure. But the enemy in Grave is the most daunting they've faced yet - their terror of accepting their own adult roles and of simply accepting what they cannot change. As you mention, rather than performing grand gestures to avoid their pain they must now learn to do the hard day-to-day work of living through their pain and learning from it.

[> [> [> [> Re: Another Connection. Spoilers for S3-S6 to finale. -- Age, 08:45:57 05/30/02 Thu

In Graduation Day, the spark of humanity left in the Mayor due to his fatherly involvement with Faith is what saves the world from Dick the Full Phallic Demon; it is this spark that allows the Scoobs and the rest of their class to graduate and ascend to the next level of their growth as people, taking back from the Mayor their birthright, the right to grow into adults. Just as the current season is a watershed year, season three was also.

The spark of humanity still flickering in Willow is what Xander and Giles get to in order to save the world; but the change from having to destroy the enemy(the Mayor) to embracing a friend, a fellow human being, reflects more of the adult perspective that graduation entitled these characters to have. The destruction of the high school represented the end of the structure that would protect and confine and define the characters as adolescents; the seasons following have been the gradual movement towards adopting a more adult perspective, with the destruction of the Magic Box symbolizing perhaps the the deconstruction of childhood magical thinking. Instead of clinging to the myth that magic will do it for you, you have to work through the pain, as you stated, but with a little help from your friends and family.

Thanks for the reply.


[> [> Re: Thoughts on the Buffy Season Finale (Spoilers S4,5,6 to Finale.) Part Two of Two. -- Rufus, 20:56:12 05/29/02 Wed

At the end of season five we had the grand gesture, the adolescent gesture of Buffy diving off to save the world. In this year's season finale, we have Xander simply being himself. He couldn't save the world with his blood or with anything supernatural. Willow, about to deal with her pain and the pain of the whole human race through eradicating it in one big sweeping gesture of power, is stopped by Xander simply acknowledging that he can't stop her, that, in effect, growing up is understanding we are limited beings in a world much out of our control, but that we do have some choice and awareness of our condition, and that within the parameters of who we are, we can just simply be human. Stopping Willow's grand gesture by just being a human being is the quintessential symbol of growing up.

I agree with what you have to say about growing up and accepting our limitations as human beings. There was a bit of an outcry about Buffy not saving the world this time. I have to say that how many apocalyptic events happen in the world that we will never know about. While Xander saved the world with this one, were there others happening at the same time? We are limited by our surroundings, we can't know or be everything and that can lead to a perception of helplessness. Xander grew up in the moment he started to that bluff to help his friend the only way he knew how and that was to accept and to love her. Heroes come in all forms, only some of them are heroic using brute strength. Xander has felt like he was useless to the group, when he is the one who ties them together, even though he couldn't recognize that fact himself. Do you see Xander as one who is meek or one that has become one of the meek by accepting who he is?

[> [> [> Re: Meek spoilers BS1-6 to finale -- Age, 21:47:42 05/30/02 Thu

I think Whedon had to have the two males save the world by playing traditionally female roles; the culture for both men and women had to change. The sacrifice that Buffy made back in season five is echoed literally in the words that Giles uses to explain his plan to Anya, ie 'The Gift' that the Wiccans gave him. But Giles plan doesn't have the suicidal element that Buffy's dive had; there's no leap towards death and the end of pain, but there is in the plan the hope that the magic will work and that Giles will not die. It is a hope filled plan, a positive plan, one that keeps faith in the humanity of others.

As these characters come of age, Whedon is generalizing to society as a whole which must come of age or risk perpetuating a hell of its own, a hell that comes with a huge price considering the weapons of mass destruction we have at our disposal. The final scene then with Spike can be generalized to society with the restoration of something that was lost in a male dominated culture. Society has come of age and gotten its soul back. Hope for the future.

The femininized resolution of the season finale reminded me of the end of 'Gingerbread' way back in season three where the slippery slide from parental care/fear to totalitarianism and witch hunts led to the igniting of other fires. Giles and Cordelia come in to save the day, so to speak, but do so in a deconstruction of the typical masculine rescue scene with Giles's incantation(a feminine role) and Cordelia's use of the hose(water as a feminine image.) Neither came in with guns ablazing or fists aflying. Not only this but the damsel in distress, Buffy, saves herself; while the two male rescuers fall through the ceiling just in time to be humourously late.

This leads me to Xander. I think he has been portrayed as meek to some extent throughout the series. That isn't to say he isn't complex, with jealousies, or judgemental patterns of thinking etc, nor is meekness to be confused with insecurity. But, he's the human being, the Zeppo, as Cordy of season three says. It is in the episode bearing that name that Xander makes a decision about what manhood really is about, an episode in which he saves the world by dealing with some of his fears. He's not the superhero, nor is he the male stereotype of the man with nerves of steel; in fact he's used as the deconstruction of the myth of the fearless male and the fearful female, a deconstruction reiterated in his fainting in 'Tabula Rasa.' Also, even though this has a jealous component, Xander has been associated with love, having feelings for Buffy, and then telling Willow that he loves her. In 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' Xander does not exploit the power he gains over his female friends. It is Xander the human being who breathes life back into the drowned Buffy at the end of season one. He has played the role on several occasions of being the builder, the one who is there to listen and give encouragement. In the current season finale Whedon does have his characters grow up and we see what Xander's potential has led him to. This season has been a humbling experience, perhaps quite necessary for these characters, preparing them for this final moment of adult consciousness.

Thanks for the reply.


[> [> [> [> Re: More about Symmetry spoilers BS6 finale -- Age, 11:02:37 05/31/02 Fri

If we look closer(than I did in the above postings) at the male and female pairings in the season finale there is more symbolism to glean. On the one hand there are the two adult males who save the world, and stay put; while the two adolescent males run. The latter two are paired with Buffy and Dawn, the emerging female adults. In these two sets of pairs we see the movement towards a more adult society which includes the feminine, with the adolescent boy society becoming a thing of the past. Further, the interpenetration of the masculine and feminine is symbolized in the pairing of Anya/Giles and Xander/Willow in that the female character, Anya, is physically(masculine act) helping the male character, Giles at the end of the ep; while the male character, Xander, is emotionally(feminine act) helping the female character, Willow. And if I really want to analyze this to absurd levels, the movement of one pair in its scene is complemented by the lack of movement of the other, symbolizing perhaps wholeness. But I'm going overboard on this.

One last thing, in regards to your question about Xander and meekness, I don't think I answered it properly. The only answer I have right at the moment is, I don't know.


[> [> Some Additional Thoughts on Season Finale Spoilers for BS5,S6. -- Age, 21:49:50 05/29/02 Wed

Thank you for the replies. I'm very glad to add to the discussion on this board.

Some items were bubbling in the back of my mind when I was doing the above postings. A couple of my observations were not made clear enough or taken to their logical conclusion. I'd like to go over these items in more detail.

Firstly, I made a connection between the season opener and the season finale, with the imagery in the finale being amplified: the snake image becomes the phallic satanic temple steeple; the snake out of the mouth becomes the coil imprisoning the Eve-figure; and, something I failed to mention fully, the hell fire imagery of Sunnydale becomes the hell fire scorching of the whole world. As quite a few posters pointed out recently, treating the symptoms of Willow's use of power as if it were a drug doesn't get at the root problem. The roots of the problem, so to speak, grow larger; and this enlargement is seen metaphorically in the season finale. In the opener Willow believes she is doing the right thing for Buffy by resurrecting her; in effect she is not dealing with her grief, not letting go of Buffy and going through the grief process. This is one of the reasons why Whedon uses the Eden myth as a template: this is a form of rebellion against the natural order. Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden of Eden lest they become as if gods. In the season finale, Willow, now in yet another grief process, goes much further than in the season opener by taking out her vengeance on the nerds. She has become as if a god, judge, jury and executioner. The bigger imagery of the season finale shows what happens when problems are left unresolved. This is yet another example and a reiteration of the basic theme of the series: repressed or denied emotions or states take on an unlife of their own and take you over as the dark magic does to Willow.

I think that Willow's attempt to save all people from pain by destroying the earth harkens back to Buffy's leap off the tower at the end of season five. As I mentioned in the other postings, Whedon allowed his title character this one last heroic act to save the world because she was still of an adolescent age(not yet 21.) But, this season the heroic act was turned into a suicide, with Buffy's creator no longer tolerating the grand gesture. Willow's grand act to save people from pain by destroying the world is, in a finale about growing up, anti-heroic, suicidal, and adolescent, adolescent in two ways, as a grand gesture and as a means of creating a heaven(Buffy's stint in heaven last summer as a fond memory of adolescence) of no pain by unleashing the destructive force of hell. It has all the negative elements that Buffy's dive did. It is of course exactly the same thing that Willow did to Tara, a violation of everyone by taking their lives into her hands(just as Glory, the god, violated Tara, as other posters have pointed out.) It is also as this season about oh grow up is concluded a reductio ad absurdum of patriarchy itself in which to keep all the child/citizens of society safe from pain one has to destroy them all. In fact along with stopping Willow's attempt at a final solution to all pain and suffering, Dawn tells Buffy that she can't protect her any longer. Pain and suffering are a part of life. And, in trying to create this heaven of no pain, Willow simply creates a hell(of course the hell imagery also expresses how Willow is feeling.) She would unleash the antithesis of what she wants.(This pattern has already been established in the series, creating a hell when trying to create a heaven, this is again the deconstruction of absolute opposites.)

There are just a couple more items I want to look at.

In the above postings I mentioned the role of Dawn in bringing about this rebirth into adulthood. The thought struck me that Whedon is illustrating the point that having the child, the dependent, helps to change one into the parent, into the adult. One has to see things in a different way given that another person's life is in your hands. Dawn becomes the child of the Scoobies, so to speak, forcing them to see things differently.

A note about imagery. Willow goes to the cliff overlooking the sea to perform her ritual to destroy the world. Water is traditionally a female symbol, and we see here perhaps yet another example of balance between the masculine and feminine in the sea and the land imagery. Of course the seaside imagery suggests Willow's being on the edge, on the precipice, so to speak, about to go over the edge of no return.

Xander stops Willow by declaring his powerlessness. This declaration and the possibility of his identification with Jesus Christ is something I didn't go into fully. The son of God saves humanity not by, like Satan and Adam and Eve and Willow, being as if a god, but by being powerless. He accepts the inevitability of his mortality. I'm not arguing here anything about Jesus's resurrection; one can see it as real and literal, and part of a religion offering hope and structure for ones life; or as a metaphor written into the story, symbolizing Jesus's teachings about rebirth into a spiritual way, a way of taking responsibility and growing up. But Jesus the man died as every human being does. Jesus saves humanity by not giving into his divinity, not being as if a god and using his supernatural power, but by being simply the human who dies. Xander is the Scoobie who is simply the human being, the one without any supernatural power. There is then this coincidence between the two, one having supernatural power and not using it, and the other declaring his powerlessness. Power will not save humanity, but being human will.

I don't however think that Whedon is naive enough to think that meekness without power is enough; I mean the premise of the show is the use of power in the service of protecting those who are preyed upon. Here we get back to the balance of the traditionally masculine and feminine. But this is power used only when necessary(the slayer is not a killer; nor is this power for power's sake.) But meekness comes in our conception of the other. Throughout the finale Buffy and the other Scoobs are not out to stop Willow because she's evil or bad, ie the enemy, but because she's a human being they love; the Scoobs are doing this for her. She is not the vilified other, and in this we see a more adult perspective, a perspective that is still able to see the other as a human being and not just a thing judged as evil to be stopped. In fact when a straight physical confrontation between Willow and Buffy takes place, Buffy loses. It is when Xander reaffirms his identification with Willow through their friendship that Willow is stopped. In the finale of a season about growing up, the 'Big Bad' turns out not to be one at all. This then reflects the change to a more adult perspective.

Hope that adds to the discussion.


[> [> [> About a girl -- ponygirl, 07:14:40 05/30/02 Thu

More great stuff Age! I just wanted to comment about the role of Dawn. I agree with your points, I also feel that Buffy in seeing Dawn not as what she is-- a dependent, a responsibility-- but as what she will become-- an adult, an equal-- represents a profound commitment to the future. There had been some discussion a while back about Dawn and Pandora's box symbolism, in pulling Dawn up out of the grave with her Buffy also finds what she has lost, namely hope. Not being a parent myself, I would still argue that having a child represents an adult's hope for the future, and commitment to work for that hope.

[> [> [> [> Re: About a girl Spoilers for BS6 -- Age, 09:11:37 05/30/02 Thu

You make a good point. Not only is Dawn in her name the light at the end of this dark night/tunnel, and not only is she the next generation in being Buffy's child, but she is that hope for the future. There is indeed this symbolic aspect to her as well. Buffy's not caring for Dawn throughout the season, her not seeing Dawn does express this hopelessness.

Also, I think you are right about the profound hope for the future. This ties in with the possible Christian content of the season finale; however, hope for the future isn't tied to the supernatural but to its absence, or at least the absence of magical thinking.

Thanks for the reply.


[> [> [> [> Re: About a girl spoilers for BS6 finale -- Age, 09:18:10 05/30/02 Thu

You make a good point. Not only is Dawn in her name the light at the end of this dark night/tunnel, and not only is she the next generation in being Buffy's child, but she is that hope for the future. There is indeed this symbolic aspect to her as well. Buffy's not caring for Dawn throughout the season, her not seeing Dawn does express this hopelessness.

Also, I think you are right about the profound hope for the future. This ties in with the possible Christian content of the season finale; however, hope for the future isn't tied to the supernatural but to its absence, or at least to the absence of magical thinking.

Thanks for the reply.


[> [> [> you make me actually like Xander! -- shygirl, 11:15:42 05/30/02 Thu

You know, I've always found Xander to be irritating. But you've helped me see him in a different light. Thank you for the perspective. Maybe the reason he irriatated me was that I too have felt helpless and powerless and hated that quality within myself... Reviewing the final scene in light of your post, I come to the conclusion that his very powerlessness is what makes him so powerful.

[> [> [> the power of love -- ravenhair, 20:54:09 05/30/02 Thu

Wonderful essay, Age!

I was also reminded of Xander as the Christ figure in the finale and the importance of love.

Xander's unfaltering love for Willow is a beautiful illustration of Paul's lesson of love in I Corinthians: "Love is patient, love is is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love never fails."

Xander grew up once he realized his strength as friend & comfortador through the power of love (also from I Cor.): "When I was a child, I talked like a child, thought like a child, reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

It will be interesting to see next season if Xander can extend his love to others in his life, such as Anya and his family.

[> [> [> [> Re: the power of love spec based on BS6 finale(spoilers) -- Age, 07:53:45 05/31/02 Fri

The verses you quote fit very well. Not only this but you have suggested the natural progression for next year. Joss Whedon has tended to show the negative influence of the parent, especially the father figure. It will indeed be interesting to see if Xander can bring his new perspective to his parents, at least understanding them, if not helping them undo some of the patterned behaviour and get at some of the underlying causes, seeing them as human beings rather than just as parents. It would be yet another example of the change of perspective from adolescent to adult. In this way, Xander may be able to see that he's not his father, be able to separate from the pattern of his influence. Anya grew so very much as well. It was such a delight to see her using her demon side as a vehicle for protecting human beings. I just can't help but root for her in the same way that I did for Cordy in the early Buffy seasons. One can just feel this human being emerging, blossoming.

Thank you for the reply.


[> Age, wanted to say THANKS!! again before this thread gets archived - Wonderful insights throughout!! -- redcat, 08:57:32 06/01/02 Sat

Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- daniell, 19:56:27 05/28/02 Tue

Hey i thought it would be fun to list our favorite funny moments, quotes or eps. Since there are just too many to name and right now my brain is experiencing a mental traffic jam, from too many thoughts rushing in at once, i'll just name my favorite funny eps.

DisHarmony, Rm w/a Vu "this place is haunted" " it's rent controlled", sense and Sensibility, there's more but my brain won't lock. can't think, can't think

Btvs: Band Candy, Halloween, BBB, Earshot, Something Blue, Triangle "she endangered the money!", Tabula Rosa, and Life Serial.

[> My top 2 favorite BtVS comedic moments... -- Rob, 20:17:19 05/28/02 Tue

They're both episode-endings.

Listening to Fear--"Actual size!" ROFLMAO


Killed by Death--Joyce's reaction to that--um--nice little picture the kid drew for Buffy.


[> [> Re: My top 2 favorite BtVS comedic moments... -- Jane's Addiction, 20:41:19 05/28/02 Tue

Ooh, yeah. Was that "Listening to Fear", or "Fear, Itself"?
In any case:

Xander: Who's a little fear demon?
C'mon, who's a little fear demon?

Don't taunt the fear demon.

Why? Can he hurt me?

No, it's just… tacky.

[> [> Re: My top 2 favorite BtVS comedic moments? Easy-- -- SingedCat, 08:34:58 05/29/02 Wed

The two times watching the shows that my friend had to stop the tape, I was laughing so hard-- naturally enough, perhaps, they're more you-have-to-be-there moments--

In Halloween, when Willlow walks through the library wall on Giles, his wild take-- catalogue cards flying, then trying to cover by going "uh-ahem--umm" -- put me on the floor.

And this was just brilliant direction by Joss-- Buffy on the phone, while Spike & Joyce sit in the living room. The longer they held that shot, the more I laughed, until I was nearly hysterical. Partly anvious tension, of course, but oh so good!:D

And of course,

"She needs backup-- Anya, Tara--"

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Exegy, 21:18:46 05/28/02 Tue

Funniest BtVS Moments

Xander walking down the school hall to the soundtrack of "Got the Love" (BBB)--the looks of lust on the girls paired with the expressions of disgust on the guys--priceless!!

The Xander/Harmony fight in the Initiative. Sissy-punching and hair-pulling get the slo-mo, heavy fight 'track treatment

S/B pairing in Something Blue

Xander steps in on the overwrought B/A lovefest (The Zeppo)

Armin Shimmerman's impression of Marlon Brando's Kurtz (Restless)- -seeing Quark reenact a scene from Apocalypse Now is true gut- busting material

Angel/Riley Smackdown in The Yoko Factor

Buffy complains about being fat in Giles' drawing (Hush)

Innumerable other scenes

Funniest Angel Moments

Spike's opening monologue for In the Dark--quite possibly the funniest thing in either show

Lots of the wicked one-liners (like Angel to Justine: "I'm not your boyfriend. Get someone else to smack you around")

Uh, don't watch AtS a lot, so don't have the best recollection

[> candidates -- Vickie, 22:05:13 05/28/02 Tue


Numfar, do the dance of joy! (I didn't know it was Joss at the time and it still split my sides)

BtVS: Joyce wants help opening a crate. Buffy does, then mom notices that it's a whooosits fertility statue

Joyce "you don't need to see this."

Joyce goes to pour juice, Buffy sneaks a peek.

Buffy" "Jeepers" (the witch, I think)

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- JCC, 06:11:57 05/29/02 Wed

The dances in Pylea.

"Poor watcher, did your whole life flash before your eyes. Cup of tea, cup of tea, almost got shagged, cup of tea."

Spike's speech: "For the safety of puppies and christmas. C'mon lets go kill something."

Anything from Mayor Wilkins or Anya.

Willow's skit of Anya. "People can so rarely be exchanged for goods and or services."

"It's a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends. I haven't got a rock this big." Spike in B1

David Boreanez in the episode where the old man Marcus takes over his body. Season 3.

I'm sure theres a lot more, especially from Xander but I cant think right now.

[> [> Almost forgot: Giles drunk in the Yoko factor. Classic. - - JCC, 06:13:45 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> Dug it out and rewatched it three times last night! -- Sophie, 17:59:24 05/30/02 Thu

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Arethusa, 07:54:40 05/29/02 Wed

Wesley and Cordelia mocking the "tragic farce" that was B/A: "I love you so much I forgot to brood." (Wesley)

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Rattletrap, 09:51:08 05/29/02 Wed


So many great ones already mentioned. A few of mine:

Mayor Wilkins's checklist in "Bad Girls,," included such items as Haircut, Meet w/ PTA, Reschedule meeting, and Become Invincible

Faith Hope and Trick, this exchange:

Faith: The whole summer it was, like, the worst heat wave. So it's about a hundred and eighteen degrees and I'm sleeping without a stitch on.

The waitress sets the tray on a table and leaves.

Faith: And all of a sudden, I hear this screaming from outside. So I go tearing out, stark nude, (Xander looks down at her body, licking his lips) and this church bus has broke down, and there's these three vamps feasting (Buffy listens calmly) on half the Baptists in South Boston. (Willow listens intently) So I waste the vamps, and the preacher comes up, and he's hugging me like there's no tomorrow, when all of a sudden, the cops pull up and they arrested us both.

She reaches for a muffin. Xander stares blankly ahead of himself, trying to picture the scene.

Xander: Wow. They should film that story and show it every Christmas.


Wes and Cordy's reenactment of the Buffy/Angel relationship, culminating in:

Wes (to Cordy): Kiss me
Cordy (to Wes): Bite me
Angel: Why don't you both bite me

"Through the Looking Glass" -- the best episode of the Pylea Arc that had dozens of funny bits

Angel studying his hair in the mirror
Lorne stopping a fight by singing "Stop, in the name of love"
Lorne's mom and Angel's reaction
Angel's retelling of his fight w/ Lindsey
and, of course, "Numfar, do the dance of joy"

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- matching mole, 11:43:09 05/29/02 Wed

Lots of great choices have already been mentioned.

The final scene of The Puppet Show with Willow dashing off the stage and leaving Xander and Buffy behind is just hysterical as is Spike and Joyce's conversation in the final episode of season 2.

Cordelia telling what she thinks is Xander that he can 'date other fish' if he wants.

Cordelia's realization in the first episode of AtS that her prospective employer is a vampire. Her smugness at figuring it out lasts for one tiny perfect instant before she realizes she's in (im)mortal danger.

Angel singing Mandy. The rest of AI singing We are the Champions.

From this year my top two are -

Spikes declaration that he is a vampire with a soul in Tabula Rasa and Buffy's response.

The elderly demon couple that Gunn helps in Double or Nothing with their skench demon problem tied with Cordelia/Wesley recap of Buffy and Angel mentioned elsewhere.

And a special award for strange fast food humour to Wesley's conversation with the Burger Loa and the entire Doublemeat Palace episode which I thought was actually one of the best things in season 6.

[> [> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Abby, 12:21:40 05/29/02 Wed

Can someone please please please post the 'Cordy/Wes do A/B' sketch. That scene was so funny I was practically crying.

[> [> [> Fredless (S3 Angel), from Psyche -- Vickie, 13:39:15 05/29/02 Wed

But you said he loved her. And of course she's
gonna love him back, 'cause he's so strong and
handsome and he really listens when you talk --
I mean, if you go for that sorta thing -- why
wouldn't it work?

Lemme break this down for you, Fred.
(imitating Buffy)
Oh, Angel. I know that I am a Slayer,
and you are a Vampire, and it is impossible
for us to be together, but --

(chiming in)
But my gypsy curse, and our hot little loins,
sometimes prevent us from seeing the truth.
Oh Buffy --

Yes, Angel?

(pulling a frown)
I love you so much I almost forgot to brood.

Gunn laughs. Fred just looks confused.

And just because I sent you to hell that one
time doesn't mean we can't be friends.

Wes grabs Cor around the waist, getting into it.

Or possibly more?

Gasp! No! We mustn't! You'll lose
your soul!

To hell with my soul!
(beat, realizing)
Again! Kiss me!

Bite me!

How 'bout you both bite me?

[> [> [> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Tracey, 13:53:57 05/29/02 Wed


Angel with Harmony as she describes the taste, texture of human blood. Angel daydreaming, just about to lick his lips.

[> [> One addition -- matching mole, 12:55:40 05/29/02 Wed

The opening credits sequence for 'Superstar'

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- manzanit, 22:48:40 05/29/02 Wed

The scene in Band Candy when Buffy asks if there is a rope to tie up Ethan Rayne. Joyce wholds up the handcuffs that Giles took from the cop when he and Joyce broke into the boutique earlier. Buffy's response: "Never tell me."

[> Lots of favorites -- Maroon Lagoon, 02:20:06 05/30/02 Thu

The whole conversation in IGYUMS about Cordelia's brownies.
W: That is not appropriate! It’s for killing extinct demons! Angel, make her stop.
W: Who knows what kind of corrosive effect your cooking may have on it!

Everyone loves Angel's spaz-dancing scene.

All of Giles' overhead presentation scene in Hush.

Colonel: You think you and your friends can just keep waltzing into a government installation brandishing weapons like-- like--
W: It's a gourd.
G: A magic gourd.
C: What kind of freaks are you people?

X: Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak? [Sees Angel] Hey man, how you doin'?
A: Buffy.
B: Angel.
X: Xander!

Cordelia: [Pretending to be Angel] Oh no, I can't do anything fun tonight. I have to count my past sins, then alphabetize them -- oh by the way, I'm thinking of
snapping on Friday.

Cordelia talking about Angel and Kate: Mr. and Mrs. Spock need to mind meld now.

Lorne: One I'm sure we can all download at I'

Gunn: Where's Cordy?
Wesley: We don't know. Not here.
G: You check her pad?
A: I stopped by there earlier.
G: You enjoying your visit to 1973? I meant her message pad.

Riley: Even when he's good he's all Mister Billowy
Coat King of Pain....

BUFFY: Harmony ... (laughing) Harmony has minions?

BUFFY: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. (Clear throat and stops laughing) It's just ... Harmony has minions! (Starts
laughing again)
XANDER: And Ruffles have ridges. Uh, Buffy, there's actually a more serious side to all this.
BUFFY: I sure hope so, 'cause I'm having trouble breathing.
XANDER:Well, she did come here to kill you.

Buffy bursts out laughing again. Riley also snickers.

RILEY: (chuckling) Buffy, come on, they have killed once that we know of. She could be a threat to you.
(Buffy laughs harder)

Riley: So what have you got going on for tonight?
B: Oh Patrolling
R: Patrolling?
B: Eh, Petroleum
R: Petroleum?
B: uh huh....What about you?
R: Oh you know grading papers.
B: Ah, that’ll be fun.
R: Not petroleum fun but it passes the time.

Lindsey: That is my lead. You are choking my lead.
A: [whiny voice] He's my lead, he's my lead.

Lorne: I think your friend should reconsider the name Harmony.

From way back in City Of, Angel leaps suavely into his car, tries to start it, then realizes he's in the wrong car. "Damn it!"

Same episode: Doyle lets out a scream as he rams Russel's gate with the car. The gate doesn't budge. "It's a good gate."

[> [> thanks for reminding me! -- anom, 22:32:56 05/30/02 Thu

"From way back in City Of, Angel leaps suavely into his car, tries to start it, then realizes he's in the wrong car. 'Damn it!'"

I'd almost forgotten that one, it's great! Also:

My favorite part of the A/V show in Hush is Anya, eating popcorn & just enjoying the whole thing. And my favorite part of the Giles- in-the-purple-wizard-robe-&-hat scene is how Buffy just keeps giving him that look till he takes it off....

And for some reason my favorite line of all is Ethan Rayne's in A New Man: "Oh bugger, I thought you'd gone!"

[> a couple more . . . -- rattletrap, 09:24:39 05/30/02 Thu

. . . both from Season 5

from "Listening to Fear":

Joyce is lying in her hospital bed pressing the call button:

J: This doesn't work, it isn't working, it isn't hooked up to anything, just like those push-buttons at the crosswalk

B: I'm sure they heard you, they're coming . . . wait, the push- buttons aren't hooked up to anything?

and, then, from "Into the Woods"

B: And I'm sure Riley will be by later for some . . . uhhh . . . Bible study

J: Good, just so long as you two are spending some time with . . . the Lord

[> [> Re: a couple more . . . -- leslie, 12:29:58 05/30/02 Thu

The whole bit of Buffy getting drunk with Spike--every time she takes a swig of booze and goes "Bleeeeeh!" I crack up. And by the time they got to the kitten poker, I wasn't sure whether they were actually playing poker for kittens, or if we were perceiving the entire scene through Buffy's addled perception. (And of course, this when we first meet Clem!)

Forget the specific episode, but Giles' comment, reading a prophecy: "Oh, as usual, dear."

Giles' comment, when Spike first shows up: "He's rather unorthodox for a vampire."
Buffy: "Maybe he's Reform." (See now, we've never found out, once she was in a position to know, whether he is circumcised.)

The completely wordless scene when the Magic Shop opens under Giles' management, as Buffy comes in and finds him in his wizard robe.

Something Blue pretty much start to finish. (Xander: "Can I be blind too?")

Pangs--being fairly Thanksgiving-obsessed myself, I love Buffy's determination that slaying the Monster of the Week will not prevent her from making a perfect Thanksgiving dinner, her draconian insistence that everyone supply not just elements of the dinner, but the RIGHT elements of the dinner as determined by her, Willow's "channeling" of her mother, and the final scene of everyone around the table, including Spike all tied up--family, whether they like it or not.

I know I'm missing more Buffy bits; I think all my favorite Angel bits have already been mentioned.

[> [> [> Doomed -- when he realized what the Word of Valios was. And circumcised? LOL. -- Sophist, 12:46:20 05/30/02 Thu

[> That thing the Buffybot said -- Maroon Lagoon, 14:24:52 05/30/02 Thu

BUFFYBOT: 'If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Then in Afterlife:
ANYA: I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the getting-better part.

I can't stop posting the funnies!

[> Re: Funniest Btvs moments -- ravenhair, 21:37:11 05/30/02 Thu

Too many funny moments, but a couple of favorites...

The graveyard scene with Xander, Willow, Anya, and Riley from Fool For Love.

from All The Way:
Anya - "Xander's gonna teach me a new game after work called Shiver Me Timbers. You ever play?"
Tara - "Not really much for the timber."

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Haddock, 10:27:48 05/31/02 Fri

I've always thought Oz was the funniest character in BTVS...
the Cheerleader scene in one of the episodes near the end of series three is one of my favourites

X "These girls are so hot"
O "Hmm, I see their spelling's improved."

and, though I can't remember it offhand, the scene about the Sunnydale school paper and the Dingoes Ate My Baby review.

Xander and Oz's discussion on the 'essence of cool' in The Zeppo was a classic too.

[> [> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- ponygirl, 12:39:23 05/31/02 Fri

Ah Oz! Yes, he had some of the funniest moments, ones that are hard to describe because it was all about his delivery and body language. I love his reaction to Snyder's "you have great hair" comment in Band Candy, just uncomfortably running his hand through his hair. But my fave is in Graduation Day Pt. 2 when Willow says of the ailing Angel "he thought I was Buffy", Oz "you too?". Just a great deadpan moment in the midst of a heavy scene.

[> [> [> Re: Funnies in heavy scenes -- leslie, 13:51:28 05/31/02 Fri

Speaking of which, how could I forget?! The whole "Ben is Glory, Glory is Ben" business. Here we are with Dawn taken by Glory, Buffy in a state of catatonia, and Spike can quite reasonably ask, with complete incredulity, "Are you people seriously stoned?" Not to mention "This is going to be worth it" when he finally whacks Xander upside the head.

I think this is my favorite type of Buffy humor--when things just suddenly veer off into completely surreality (like kitten poker) and the characters' reactions to it.

(paraphrasing, probably):

Buffy: Mom was so excited her head spun around and exploded.
Giles: I've been living on the Hellmouth too long--you did mean that metaphorically, didn't you?

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Pen, 03:35:48 06/01/02 Sat

Ohmygod, what a trip down memory lane reading these. I'm cracking up just looking at the capsule summaries. I would add the "Captain and Tenille" (spelling?) argument at the beginning of "Ted," Willow's horrified "I think I'm a little gay" line in "Dopplegangland" (hilarious in retrospect, especially because AH delivered the line so beautifully), Oz's observation (paraphrase) "You know you guys are nuts, right?" in "Gingerbread," Angel's deadpan "I'm a funny guy" in "Earshot," his "really honing my brooding skills" in "Lie to Me" and his "I lurk" line in "What's My Line?" part I, and, good lord, there are so many...I have to quit now or risk excessively prolix reminiscence. My faves: "Something Blue":
Buffy: (replying indignantly to Spike's derogation of her name) "What's wrong with Buffy?"
Giles: (immediately, deadpan) "Such a good question."
-- the entire lecture hall scene in "Hush"
-- and I'm so glad somebody else noted this one. It cracked me up, but none of my friends seemed to think it was intended to be a particularly humorous scene. I refer to the point in "The Zeppo" where Angel and Buffy are having yet another overwrought argument, pledging undying (and dying) love. Xander bursts into this terribly soap opera-ish (operatic?) moment and then, just for a second, Buffy and Angel's bubble of emotional angst is popped, and we can see how truly melodramatic the scene is. Anyhoo, BtVS is as funny, overall, as most sitcoms I've seen -- they can barely evoke a smile in me, but BtVS can have me literally rolling on the floor laughing. I haven't watched AtS this year, but that blow by blow of Cordy and Wesley re-enacting the whole B/A dynamic was absolutely hilarious. I could picture it, and wished I had actually seen the ep in question.

[> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Pen, 03:57:11 06/01/02 Sat

Sorry for a second post. I just had to add the scene in "Intervention" where the gang confronts the newly-arrived real- Buffy while the bot is upstairs, and especially the bot's confidential "We're very pretty" to her human counterpart after she comes back down again. In fact, pretty much everything the Buffy-bot said or did (remember the visual LED info?) in this ep and in "Bargaining." Or the point in "Pangs" where Xander, echoing Willow's earlier muffled accusation, blurts out a horrified "He's evil again" when he sees Angel, and Angel does a beautiful job of defensiveness and indignation when he replies, (paraphrase, since I'm a 1/2 a state away from my video archive right this second) "I'm not evil. Why does everybody keep saying that? I haven't been evil in a very long time."

And, just as an example of how great this show is, in one of the darkest episodes, "The Body," Anya's snide "Xander decides he blames the wall" line actually made me laugh out loud despite the fact that I had no intention of finding even a trace of humor in this ep.

[> [> Re: Funniest Ats and Btvs moments -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:56:00 06/02/02 Sun

From Tabula Rosa in the Magic Box, after Giles realizes he is British.

Spike: Oh look at Mary Poppins. You know, you English nancy boys are always, wait . . . Bloody hell, bugger, shag, knickers, rugby . . . Oh, I'm English.

[> Okay, one more round, I'm really enjoying this thread -- rattletrap, 14:07:49 06/01/02 Sat

This scene from "I Was Made to Love You" was absolutely hilarious in the version that aired, but some of the bits in Jane Espenson's script that didn't make the final cut were just as good:

Fine. We find Warren tomorrow.
Tonight I better go rescue Giles.
He's watching Dawn while Mom's
on her date, and I get the feeling
there's only so much he can take.

Oh, Giles and Dawny? I bet they
ended up having a blast.

Dear God, Buffy, there's only so
much I can take.


Buffy and Giles stand just inside the open front door. Giles is ready to leave.

We're simply going to have to
change the system. A fourteen-
year-old is too old to be baby-sat
for. It's not fair to her.

Buffy reads between the lines.

What did she make you do?

Well, we listened to some
aggressively cheerful music
sung by people chosen for
their ability to dance, then
we ate cookie dough and
talked about boys.

I'm so sorry, but if it makes you
feel any better, my fun-time-Buffy
party night involved watching a
robot throw Spike through a window,
so if you want to trade... no wait, I
wouldn't give up that memory for

A robot? That's interesting.

We're going to work on it in the
morning. Or, if you wanted to
hang out a little longer, you and
I could--

Joyce arrives from outside, looking very happy.

So who wants to hear everything?

...listen to Mom talk about boys.

Yes, right! Must go! See you
tomorrow! Good-bye, Joyce.

Bye, Rupert!

Giles exits. Joyce closes the door.

Gosh, I'd forgotten how much fun
dating can be!

I don't know, I was standing right
there. I didn't see Prince
Charming. I didn't see a good-
night kiss. It all looked pretty
tame to me.

Joyce is taking off her coat.

Yes, I suppose by your standards
it would seem pretty-- Oh dear.


I left my bra in his car.


I'm joking!

Good God! That's horrible!
Don't do that!

I left it in the restaurant.

Buffy runs up the stairs, hands over her ears.

No more! No more!

(called after)
On the dessert cart!

DAWN enters from the kitchen, licking cookie dough off her fingers.

What the heck is going on out here?

I'm just torturing your sister.

I'm for it. How was the date?

Good. Really good.

You gonna see him again?

You know? I hope so. I think he
had a good time. And what did
you do tonight?

Irritated Giles. I'm beginning to
get why Buffy likes it so much.

[> [> Oh! also... -- Doriander, 15:30:01 06/01/02 Sat

Loved this bit:

Wait. We don't know what you're
walking into. I'd like to have a
notion of what purpose the robot
serves. What was he setting out
to accomplish?

Um... Don't you think she's just...

Yeah... sort of just a...

She's a sex bot. I mean, what guy
doesn't dream about that? Beautiful
girl with no other thought but to
please you, willing to do anything...

He looks around the table at all the women... Anya, Tara, Willow, Buffy... all wearing looks ranging between disgust and more disgust.

Too many girls. I miss Oz. He'd
get it. He wouldn't say anything,
but he'd get it.

Subtle, potent humour only a loyal viewer can appreciate. Love it when the writers acknowledge us... (Doriander on snob mode wears a smug grin).

[> Two of my Favourites -- Maxwell, 19:38:15 06/01/02 Sat

From “Once More With Feeling” when Tara fills Dawn in on the current evil.

TARA: (smiles) Willow said they have a lead on the whole musical extravaganza evil. This demon that can be summoned, some sort of Lord of the Dance. (grins) Oh, but not the scary one. Just a demon.

And from Angel – “Disharmony” when Cordelia misunderstood Harmony’s motives.

Willow: "Cordelia! Okay. We're all clear on the fact that Harmony is a vampire, right?"
Cordy: "Oh. Harmony is a vampire? - That's why she - oh, my god, I'm so embarrassed! (Giggles) All this time I thought she was a great big lesbo! - Oh, yeah? Really? - Well, that's great! Good for you."
Willow: "Thanks for the affirmation. Cordelia, Harmony is *very* dangerous. You have to get out of there!"

It was actually Cordelia’s extended pause that made it so funny.

Wanda's Season Six Finale spoiler clues from earlier in the year (spoiler for "Seeing Red") -- Rob, 20:23:06 05/28/02 Tue

I remember earlier in the year Wanda gave the clue about the Big Scooby Death..."Fourth time's the charm."

Does anyone get what that clue meant? Because I still don't...

The only thing I could figure is that there are 4 letters in Tara's name, but that still doesn't make that much sense, since there are also 4 letters in "Anya" and "Dawn." And, also, that doesn't really fit in with the clue.

Did anyone actually ever figure out what that clue meant?


[> Re: Wanda's Season Six Finale spoiler clues from earlier in the year (spoiler for "Seeing Red") -- O'Cailleagh, 20:46:59 05/28/02 Tue

Well, all I can come up with is the scene in Villains where Willow tells Buffy and Xander about Tara's murder..."The last shot was the charm". Unforunately I can't remember how many shots Warren fired, and the Shooting Script doesn't I'm guessing that this isn't what Wanda was referring to! And anyhow, not really much of a clue if that *is* what she meant...

[> [> Re: Wanda's Season Six Finale spoiler clues from earlier in the year (spoiler for "Seeing Red") -- Nos, 02:19:15 05/29/02 Wed

It was four shots that were fired, though how Wanda could know such a small detail so early in the season, boggles my mind. As it is obvious from the 'penis monster' and the 'whiney Dawn' things in the actual epi's that the writers are reading the message boards (I mean, Willow's Speach? I swear I saw that posted once..."Mom, Buffy, Tara, wah.."), perhaps they worked it in....

[> Re: Wanda's Season Six Finale spoiler clues from earlier in the year (spoiler for "Seeing Red") -- Deeva, 22:33:02 05/28/02 Tue

The answer was actually brought up by a poster in Wanda's chats after that particular clue was dropped. I would go and search for it at E! online's archives but am too lazy for that right now. the poster made some connection between Tara's name meaning, in another language, a type of gem and how gems are charms and so on. Wanda's only answer was "Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it." I just might go and dig it up.

[> [> Just for you, Rob! -- Deeva, 22:52:30 05/28/02 Tue


From vze: Sounds like "Fourth one's a charm" means Tara is going to die. Amber (a gem or "charm") Benson plays Tara, who has four letters in her name. Am I right?

Wanda: You're not far off.

Actually it wasn't too hard to find. I looked through the Spoiler SLayer's archives and just randomly picked Feb. 2002 as it's a sweeps month and guessed that it might be where she dropped that clue. And I wasn't that far off in remembering how the connection was made but it was a litle fuzzy.

[> [> [> Re: Just for you, Rob! -- Rob, 09:30:57 05/29/02 Wed

Thanks for going to all the trouble. You're the best. :o)


[> Re: Wanda, spoilers, Seeing Red -- Diana Michelle Murray, 23:43:11 05/28/02 Tue

Buffy flatlined for a few seconds. Technically, that was her fourth death shown in the series('Prophecy Girl', 'The Wish', 'The Gift', 'Seeing Red').

[> Another possibility - -- Darby, 05:39:56 05/29/02 Wed

Wasn't Tara the fourth featured witch on the show? Amy, Amy's Mom, Willow, then Tara? "Charm" would fit in there as well...

[> [> Re: Yet another possibility -- pr10n, 09:29:54 05/29/02 Wed

["Set "Speculation Hat" to FULLAUTO."
"Aye aye, Kiptin."]

How about: Tara is the fourth lover of the Slayerettes -- Cordy, Oz, Anya, Tara. A real Scooby can't die, long-standing rumor notwithstanding, but a SubScooby could die, and Tara's the fourth.

QED, he said demonstratively.

[> [> [> Re: Yet another possibility -- tost, 09:47:06 05/29/02 Wed

Tara's life was threatened by 1 gentelmen in "Hush" 2 Jonathan demon in "Superstar" 3 Oz in "NMR"


[> [> [> [> And yet one more... -- redcat, 13:17:12 05/29/02 Wed

Tara is the fourth synpathetic female character ("charmer") to die: Jenny, Joyce, Buffy and Tara. While I think Buffy's death is really quite a bit different than the other three, on many, many levels, Tara's is technically the fourth "real" death on the show, in the sense that we came to know and care about these four women, as did the show's characters. All four deaths change the Scoobies world.

And while we haven't yet seen Tara's headstone, as we have those of the other three dead female characters, I wouldn't be surprised if we see it sometime next year. It would be the logical site for the SG to come together to mourn Tara's death, allowing the audience to ritually grieve along, as so many of us still need to do. Or perhaps Tara's headstone will be the site of one part of the Buffy/Willow reconciliation. Now that has some symbolic possibilities...

Gravestones in "Two to Go" / "Grave [SPOILERS] -- Mike J, 21:14:14 05/28/02 Tue

Just a little interesting tidbit I noticed from watching the Buffy finale again. In Spike's crypt, one of the named graves in the wall is entitled "James Marsters." And one of the graves near the hole where Buffy & Dawn crawl from is named "Rosenberg" ... I think, that's what it looked like. Just have to look carefully ...

Mike J.

[> Did Buffy's gravestone appear in Bargaining? -- Maroon Lagoon, 23:12:45 05/28/02 Tue

Could anyone who saw Bargaining tonight tell me if the tombstone we saw in The Gift was still there? It seems like they'd take it down if they wanted the town to think she was still alive.

[> [> Yeah, Buffy's tombstone was in Bargaining. -- JCC, 05:59:25 05/29/02 Wed

When she comes up from the grave she looks at it and realises what happened.

[> [> Speaking of Bargaining last night... Cuts? -- Sulis, 09:12:49 05/29/02 Wed

I watched the teaser for Bargaining last night, and noticed that the early scene between Spike, Tara and Giles seemed to have been cut--the discussion about the powder, the prescriptions and operating heavy machinery was missing. I'm not usually that sensitive to cuts, but this is one of my favorite moments in Bargaining I, and I missed it.

Did anyone else notice this? Or was I having a horrid dream? Were there other cuts? Are the repeats on UPN this summer going to be the syndicated version? I hope not.

[> [> [> Re: Speaking of Bargaining last night... Cuts? -- Brian, 09:30:27 05/29/02 Wed

The whole scene of Buffybot and Dawn wandering through the parent's day event, and the conversation about the model with the little people was removed. I assume for more commericals.

[> [> [> [> Re: Speaking of Bargaining last night... Cuts? -- tost, 09:36:59 05/29/02 Wed

Since it was run as two one hour eps. they had to cut for twice the opening and closing credits. Also another "previously on Buffy"

A shame

[> [> [> [> [> until Season 6 DVD becomes available you won't see the same epis again -- Dochawk, 12:17:00 05/29/02 Wed

1st run television has rules: 42 minutes and change per episode including credits, so ME uses that to decide how to break a script. If the epi runs short they add more to the previously on etc. But reruns are a different story, they usually cut 90 seconds from a show to add 3 more commercials, but can cut more if they like. You will never see the entire episode again (unfortuntely because I would love to get all hour 8 minutes of OMwF on hi def) unless you buy the DVDs (or VHS)

[> [> [> [> [> [> I thought the rule was... -- Dyna, 13:28:58 05/30/02 Thu

...first showing in syndication, the episodes run uncut, but after that they're cut. For instance, FX showed the early season episodes in their entirety the first time around, but now on subsequent showings they butcher the things. Also, in previous years on the WB reruns both during the season and in the summer have been shown uncut. I don't work in television though, so my understanding of this is sketchy. Is there a particular reason why UPN and the WB would treat reruns differently?

[> [> [> [> That really is too bad...That was one of the most endearing parts of the whole episode. -- Rob, 12:12:16 05/29/02 Wed

[> I don't think it was Marsters... -- Nos, 23:25:13 05/28/02 Tue

I noticed that too. But I think the last name started with H, not M. I'll have to look again, however. But the first name WAS James.

[> Re: Gravestones in "Two to Go" / "Grave [SPOILERS] -- neaux, 04:35:47 05/29/02 Wed

yeah.. I mentioned that a week ago.. about the Rosenberg headstone.

Xander hit his head against it and it knocked him out.

[> [> I think it said "Rosene" -- Katie, 14:38:29 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> yes, it did -- anom, 23:05:41 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Well that solved that I guess. =P -- neaux, 08:53:47 05/30/02 Thu

Yet another spectacular non-crossover? -- Ayla, 23:35:51 05/28/02 Tue

I just posted this on BC&S, but I wondered what you guys think. **please note, because of the cutting and pasting, the layout might look a little strange**

I realize this is not the actual spectacular non-crossover, but I thought it was interesting. This is basically a silly observation, but I thought I would post it anyway.

Tonight, I was dubbing my tape of the last round of this season's Angel eps for a friend of mine. I was online at the time, just kind of listening to the eps. It's funny what I can catch while only listening.

During the ep "The Price", I caught the term 'thaumogenesis'. I thought that sounded familiar. Then, I thought "haven't we heard that term, or something like it, on Buffy?"

Well, I went back to review "The Price" and found that 'thaumogenesis' is thought to be
the 'price' of Angel's act of practicing dark magic.

I then went to review "Afterlife" and saw that Willow found 'tamogenesis' to be "a price" to be paid for getting such a huge gift - Buffy. And I think, no one would argue, Willow practiced some dark magic to bring Buffy back.

There are pronunciation differences in the terms. Angel: 'th'aumogenisis. Willow: 't'amogenisis. Of course, Angel seemed to know what it was, without looking it up.
Willow found it through research. It's understandable that Willow might think it was pronounced with a 't' rather than a 'th'.

When it all came together, I thought that, perhaps, the entire season of both Buffy and Angel were meant to be the "spectacular non-crossover". Both seasons have dealt with betrayal, secret- keeping and vengeance. There have been other, very small, instances of similarity. This one just struck me as the most recent.

[> "Evil Thing" Spike & other vampires (spoilers) -- Scroll, 10:52:11 05/29/02 Wed

Here's another non-crossover crossover: In Loyalty, Angel explains to their client Audrey that her son isn't really her son anymore, just an 'evil thing'--a vampire. He's trying to help her heal by explaining that her son is dead, even though there is something out there that looked just like her son and had his memories. Throughout S6 of BtVS, Buffy and Xander keep calling Spike an 'evil dead thing'. Buffy and Xander's attitudes and motivations for using this term are quite from Angel's, but we still have people calling vampires 'evil things'.

Of course, we have Willow and Holtz, two people consumed by vengeance. We have Wesley and Anya who, having been kind of 'betrayed' or at least abandoned by the people they loved, sleeping with 'the enemy' (though Spike's not really an enemy, even if Xander dislikes him). And we have the whole, Cordy gains new powers/ascends to heaven vs. Willow gains new powers/ascends into evilness. And Angel sinking into his watery grave vs. Buffy climbing out of her grave.

Lots of crossovers if you take the time to look for them! Anyone else see any?

[> not quite -- vampire hunter D, 17:59:49 05/29/02 Wed

thaumagenesis can be pronounced as though the th were a t. Willow therefore was refering to the same thing that created the slugs on ANgel

[> [> But the slugs weren't created. They came from Quor-toth. Connor said so. -- VampRiley, 19:01:56 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> Meaning of Thaumagensis? (spoilers) -- Scroll, 19:20:59 05/29/02 Wed

As far as I can tell 'thauma' is the Greek root of 'miracle' or 'wonder'. So 'thaumagenesis' should mean creating a miracle or wonder. I can't remember what Angel and Willow gave as the definition, but I guess I'd see the opening of the rift to Quortoth and Buffy's resurrection as being the 'thaumagenesis', the miracle, and 'the price' for the use of such dark magicks to accomplish these tasks are whatever follows.

I don't see the slugs in "The Price" to be the full extent of the price Angel will have to pay; they were incidental, just like the dimension hopping ghoul in "Afterlife". Both were obstacles and seemed dangerous, but the real price came later and in surprising forms: Buffy's depression, Willow's growing addiction to magic, maybe even Tara's death. And Angel's price might be his entrapment in a watery grave, and Connor's hatred of him.

Any other speculations? Am I way off base with my definition? Let me know!

[> [> [> [> Prices of Thaumagensis (spoilers) -- VampRiley, 19:51:09 05/29/02 Wed

A lot of times, what some people think of when they hear the word "price" for being able to do something, they think of "Oh! It's got to be something horrible! I'm gonna have to do something, like unleashing a major hell beast or whatever." But more often than not, it's more subtle. More emotional. This season, it seemed like guilt was a major one. The Scoobies that resurrected Buffy felt tremendous guilt for taking her out of heaven. They can't even imagine the pain she's going through. For Angel, there was putting the life of everyone who was in the hotel in danger of those slugs. And now, he has Connor and Linwood's coming after him, though these last two aren't necessarily prices for what he did. But they can't be helping. Holtz is no longer in the picture, but he has been replaced by Connor and Justine. Hey. Maybe the price for Angel is being paid for by karma. They may not have been a direct succession of events, but they were a succession of events. Those dark magicks were very dangerous. He put a lot of people, and not just Angel Investigations, in danger. And wanting to use those dark magicks for revenge couldn't have helped either.


The Second Death: The Sacrificial Suicide of Spike (spoilers through "Grave") -- Carol B., 02:55:54 05/29/02 Wed

Okay, this is my first essay-length post here. The discussion below about Spike and suicide got me thinking. And this is what happened. :-)

The Second Death: The Sacrificial Suicide of Spike

Whether most views realized or not, their were two main characters deaths this season. The first death, that of Willow's girlfriend Tara MacClay. Accidentally shot through the chest by the cowardly act of a sociopath, and facilitating Willow's decent into Dark Magick.

However, in the season finale, there was another main character death. One that was as instantaneous as Tara's, but different in that this death not only gave way to a rebirth, but was a conscious choice of the victim . . . in all intensive purposes, a suicide.

Of course, I'm talking about the ensouling of Spike.

* * * * *

From Human, to Vampire, to . . . .

In an interview on The Succubus Club radio show the day after the season finale, writer Jane Espenson talked about the cliffhanger at the end of the episode "Grave," noting that it was the writers intent to create a misdirection ion the nature of Spike's quest. Not that he was going to get his behavior modification chip removed but, instead, have his soul restored. To make himself worthy in the eyes of the woman who he loved beyond all reason. So that they would be no chance that he could ever possibly hurt her like he almost did when he (with no malicious intent) almost raped her.

From what we know, and what we've seen on Vampires in the Buffy and Angelverses, it appears that the personalities of the original human host are distorted. They are not completely the same as the former human self, but they carry many of the same traits, emotional aspects and even tastes. Most recently with Willow's decent into Dark Magicks, we've seen hints of the personality traits we saw in VampWillow in "The Wish" and "Doppelgängland." ("Bored Now": used by VampWillow in both episodes, and again three season later by DarkWillow in "Villains.")

However, we only have one case of a Vampire who has regained his soul, the main essence of what separates Vampire Demons from humans.++ Human Liam was a lout, an 18th century fratboy-type, belittled and mocked by his father. The Vampire Angelus was the apex of that behavior, unchecked and acting out in more harsh and violent ways, especially to those who dismissed him while human.

When the Vampire Angelus was restored his human soul by a gypsy cures however, he did not revert back into Liam, the person he was before he was turned. The soul, coupled with his experiences of over 150 years of being a Vampire made him something wholly unique from what he was and what he had been.

With the ensouling, he became Angel. Angelus was dead. Angel was born. And, if not for the loophole in the cures of a escape clause via "one moment of perfect happiness" Angelus would stay dead, with never a chance to be resurrected.

* * * * *

Spike: From Life, to Rebirth, to Becoming A "Dead Shell."

Spike, aka William the Bloody, was sired by Drusilla, who was in turn sired by Angelus. He knew the Vampire Angelus was and, when he encounter him in Buffy's second season, he saw what the souled Angelus had become. (Angel.) He saw the burden for his past crimes that Angel bore because of his soul, and repeatedly mocked him for it. (see AtS "In The Dark.")

However, because of the make-up of his human predecessor (William the Bloody Awful Poet), Spike has a unique ability to love. He loves completely, wholly, obsessively, even desperately. He dose not love halfway, but gives all of himself to it and to the one who he gives the affections. As a human, he worshiped a woman who later declared that he was "beneath" her. That same fateful night he suffered that heartache, he was killed and turned into a Vampire.

All of Spike's actions after that, up until his first visit to Sunnydale, were a act of shredding that earlier rejection. He hated what his human self was and did everything in his power to destroy any part of himself that still carried what Cecily rejected in Human William. To be feared and gain respect amongst not only his fellow Vampires but to be what his new beloved, Drusilla wished him to be -- the ultimate monster, as her "Daddy" Angelus was. Spike did not completely win Drusilla until he had done something Angelus had never done . . . killed a slayer. When Dru leaves him because she claims that he's gone soft, is not "monster enough" after his truce with Buffy, he is a broken being. Buffy herself even called him a "shell of a loser."

However, it is three years later, and by her, that he truly becomes a shell of himself, with only option that will forever destroy him, left.

Spike, by his own admission (see "Fool For Love.") became obsessed with Slayers the first moment he herd about them. To his mind, they had to not only be the ultimate challenge -- a complete life or death battle for a vampire -- but a sort of distorted vision of the woman whom he had loved and set herself above him.

Killing them made him feel otherwise.

Spike killed two slayers in his time. It was the third, however, that was the "charm." It was the third that fascinated him the most and then, ultimately bewitched him. It was the third he was unable to kill, first by circumstance ('bad luck" as he said), and then because he himself didn't want to, subconsciously and then consciously, no matter how hard he fought against it. (see "Family.")

In the season five episode "Out Of My Mind," Spike discovers, via a dream, that he is in love with the slayer he has hated and tried to kill for almost three years, Buffy Summers. His "oh no," and please to God at this discovery are comical when first seen, but now tragic in retrospect. He knew, then and there, that this was a love that would destroy everything he was, who he was. He had tried, (almost in vain,) to destroy everything about what he had been after Cecily's rejection. He had shaped himself into someone Dru wanted. However, this new love was not someone who would just regard him as one in either a lower social class or whatever Cecily's 19th century reasons for rejecting William's shy declarations of love. (Though the bloody awful poetry could have been a huge factor.)

No, the huge differences was, this time, the thing separating him and the object of his affection was their very natures. Buffy, as the slayer, is one of the leading forces on the side of good. Spike, as a vampire, has his whole nature designed for the opposite. Darkness. Evil. Spike, because of William, loves strongly. And, because he loves someone who is a force of good so strongly he knew that it would (and later was) destroy him.

Which is why he fight his feeling for her at every turn. He dose good, even noble things because he doesn't want to see her hurt or in pain. (see "Intervention.") However, one hateful thing from his beloved and his natural impulses take over. (see "Smashed.") Only because of the behavior chip in his brain his impulses are stopped.

Do you think I like having you here? [clutching his chest, over his heart] Destroying everything that was me, until all that's left is you in a dead shell.

-- Spike to Buffy, "Crush"

This struggle and slow death become more than apparent than ever in season six after Buffy has called a halt to the sexual affair. Buffy knows she can't love him because of what he is and that she is just using him to feel. However, she never seems to fully realize what being with her, for even a short while, has done to him. No matter how hard he might wish to stop loving her, nothing works.

Being with her has destroyed too much of his former self. He can not go back, no matter how much he might wish to. He can't bare to see her in pain, yet cause her pain when she inadvertently gives him a sliver of hope to be with her again. Before this moment, obviously in emotional pain a turmoil declares that she should have let him be killed by and angry Xander. Spike's love for Buffy has made him suicidal, where the option of death -- real "dust to dust" death -- is a better option to him then a living death filled with emotional hurt and pain because of his love for her.

He doesn't fight back when Xander tries to kill him for the drunken solace he sought with Anya.

Spike has reach such a low ebb, he is beyond caring.

So when, according to Jane Espenson, he decides to go and win back his soul, it is not only just a grand "romantic gesture." It is also a being who has no will to live as he is anymore. He's tired of the pain, tired of not knowing who, or what he is . . . and determined never to have any impulse left in him that could possibly hurt the woman he loves.

This makes his anger, when referring to Buffy, all the more believable in this context. His love for her is destroying him, just as he always knew it would from the moment he awoke from that fever dream over a year ago. He blames her for it, just as he always has, but is unable to do anything but help her when he can.

I hope she fries/I'm free if that b*t*h dies/I'd better help her out.

-- Spike, "Once More With Feeling."

He knows what Angelus became after being ensoul. He was no longer Angelus, nor was he really Liam. He was a new being altogether, Liam's soul coupled with Angelus' experiences.


Spike knew, going in, that getting a soul wouldn't mean that he would completely become William (though he would become more like him than he had been in 120 odd years.) However, he knew that he now -- Spike -- would really be gone for the most part as well. William's soul with Spike's memories. That's what he would be.

Spike would die. Has died. Not with a stake to the heart, but a addition to it.

Because he had no will to continue as he was . . . and for the love of one person.

++Yes, I'm leaving out the resurrected Darla, but she was resurrected as a human with a soul, not a vampire with a soul as Jane Espenson claims Spike is now.

[> Alas Poor Spike, I knew him well. -- LeeAnn, 03:40:44 05/29/02 Wed

Very good. Totally enjoyed it.

[> Re: excellent analysis -- shygirl, 07:12:36 05/29/02 Wed

Yes, love is the greatest power of all. Look at the love that Willow's friends extend to her even as she falls prey to the evil within herself.

I agree with you that Spike is dead and it will be interesting to see who this being is that comes back. An unwilling and inescapable love has transformed him, however reluctantly into something else.

[> Re: The concept of "tragedy" in the context of good and evil -- Thomas the Skeptic, 10:55:08 05/29/02 Wed

Great analysis of the way things currently stand for He Who Was Spike (what will this new composite of William and Spike be called? "Will"? "Spill"? "Wike"?) but one thing in particular that you said started me thinking. When Spike woke up from his dream and realized that he was in love with Buffy he said "No! Oh God! Please no!" and you remarked that, ultimately, this was an expression of the tragedy that that love would prove to be for him. But is it? If having a soul opens up the range of his possible actions in the future and allows, for the first time, the chance for him to be unequivocally good, is that tragic? Of course, for a being whose "court" was previously centered only on doing evil the prospect of being free to do both good and evil might appear tragic and this is one of the typical ironies that pop up in the Whedonverse. I just wonder, though, whether this new fused together creature will think his love for Buffy is tragic or will he be grateful that it led him to this new broadened perspective?

[> [> The Vampire Previously Known As Spike ? :) -- Ete, 12:54:40 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> [> ROFL. -- Sophist, 13:53:16 05/29/02 Wed

[> [> I vote for "Will", and . . . . -- Carol B., 19:59:37 05/29/02 Wed

From *our* persepctive it isn't "tragic" that the evil in him was being destroyed, but from his perspective (of a Vampire that aquaints itself with evil and mayhem) it's tragic for him (What can I say? No matter what, I have soft spot for Spike and the pain he was obviously in at being "destroyed." :- )

The new fused together creature most likely won't look upon it as tragic, I agree, no matter what guilt he might be feeling for his past. He might even see Buffy, and his love for her, as his "salvation," just as the old Spike saw Drusillia as his salvation. ("She saved me from a life of mediocraty." -- Spike in "Crush.")

Carol B.

[> Dead End -- Doriander, 13:48:11 05/29/02 Wed

Because he had no will to continue as he was . . . and for the love of one person.

Suppose the much discussed scene of him meeting a dead end on the way to the Bronze in OMWF foreshadowed this? Certainly supports the argument that as a souless vamp, Spike can only go so far trying.

"Hey, always knew I'd go down fighting." (The Gift)

Well I guess he did in a way. Spike and suicide. Didn't really see it in that light until LeeAnn's post and this. Kinda throws his idle utterance of "Here we are now, entertain us," into a whole new context (eerie coincidence considering who the songwriter was. Probably entirely unintentional... And I just worked myself into a depressing thought. And dammit, that was actually the one redeeming moment IMHO of the lameness that was his trials). Wow. Now I'm thrown. I join LeeAnn in mourning.

[> [> Sorry! Finale Spoilers above... -- Doriander, 14:03:16 05/29/02 Wed

[> Foreshadowing....Restless....Tabula Rasa....Randy -- Caroline, 14:06:43 05/29/02 Wed

Think about this for a while and I think you'll see that Spike is not dead, just extended. The soul he received is symbolic of the integration of light and dark in his personality. The good has been growing in him over 2 seasons and has now culminated in a soul - by choice, it seems. He won't automatically go back to being William because the soul won't erase the good part of the identity that he has built, unlike Liam who was a horrible human being and a horrible unsouled vampire and was only good when ensouled. There's some nuances happening here with Spike concerning identity - he'll still love to kick demon butt but he may have more of an understanding of where Buffy and the SG are coming from in their fight for good. So cheer up everyone, no need to mourn and wring hands - Joss has already foreshadowed all of this.

[> [> Agree with Caroline -- shadowkat, 17:58:46 05/29/02 Wed

As I posted above in response to LeeAnn's fanfic.
I find it interesting how everyone who has been following
Angel's storyline and seen the ensouling of both Angel
and Darla has forgotten something incredibly important.

In Buffyverse - the writers tell us that the personality and
mind of the human is kept by the vampire (see Lie to
Me,Btvs2 Dear Boy Ats 2). The demon doesn't get the soul. So why does everyone assume that if the soul comes back, the personality and memories and feelings of the demon become non-existent or repressed? I bet Angel wishes that were so...would make his life far less tortured. And Darla's loss less hard.
The Btvs soul concept should not be confused with the christian definition
of a soul. The soul is defined by JW as a moral compass, without it you don't really have a choice, or at least vampire's don't (other demons as Anya states in Family may be different - some demons are inherently evil (vampires) while others are useful members of society (Clem, Lorne). So vamps without a soul are just predisposed to do evil.

I think people are confused by the whole Angel losing his
soul thing - Angelus appeared not to love Buffy or remember
his love for her, This isn't true, if anything he still cares for her and HATES her for it. Angelus is very different than Spike. But there are a few Buffyverse canons:

1. Vampires need souls for redeemption or to choose, without
them they can't help but do evil, if they do good it is for the wrong reasons - like a sociopath. (see Sancturary and
Five by Five ATS 2, Consequences Btvs 3, and the Darla episodes in Ats 2-3, also Lullaby where Darla says her child's soul is giving her a compass. ) If they repeat
it often enough - it's canon.
2. Ensouled Vampires retain the memories, emotions, and loves of the nonsouled vamp - this is proven by Darla in
Ats Season 2, and Angel in his desire to help Darla, his
memories of staying with Darla for 20 years after being
ensouled, she dumped him not the other way around.
Also by Angel in Amends Season 3 Btvs. (They've made this
pretty clear.)
3. Not all characters act the same. Darla did not react in the same manner as Angel when ensouled. Each character is different and has their own history. Also Spike unlike Angelus, fell in love with Buffy and chose the soul.

I love your post, it was cool. But I disagree on Spike being
dead or committing suicide. Rather I think he made a choice
to grow up. He chose to break out of arrested development
or Peter Panhood and take responsiblity, feel remorse,
move towards creation, become an adult. The last line
of the song is fitting, by dying we gain eternal life.

Buffy jumped of the tower of her adolescence in Season 5,
Spike gets ensouled in Season 6. It has a nice symmetry.
Often when we jump from adolescence to adulthood it can be
seen as a type of death - the death of childhood.

think about it: William = innocent, preadolescent
Spike: adolescent, peterpan hoodlum (not unlike Giles'
and finally....? adult William?

When Spike returns - we'll probably see someone closer to
Giles in personality with a Ripperish edge, than an Angel
or the childish William.

Okay - hope this made sense. ;- )

[> [> [> Disagree on some points. -- Carol B., 19:48:13 05/29/02 Wed

"In Buffyverse - the writers tell us that the personality and mind of the human is kept by the vampire (see Lie to Me,Btvs2 Dear Boy Ats 2). The demon doesn't get the soul. So why does everyone assume that if the soul comes back, the personality and memories and feelings of the demon become non-existent or repressed?"

I didn't say that. In fact, most of what I said is that Spike is going to become a hybrid of his two selves -- what he retained of William (his main personality traites) when he was turend, and the memories he posesses as Spike. (maybe even some of the mannerisums. And of course, his Vampire Demon.) But he will not be the exact same person.

This is a main sticking point with the actions of Angel/Angelus. Just this year, Wesley argued to Holtz that Angel was not responsible for Angelus actions, because he was not the same person. That having a soul made him a different being from Angelus. This was the same agument Buffy made when Angel came back from hell in season three of BtVS.

And remember the moment Angel was resouled in "Becoming, Part II." He told Buffy he felt as if he's been "asleep" for months. He didn't remeber anything Angelus had done at first.

Ensouled Vampires retain the memories, emotions, and loves of the nonsouled vamp - this is proven by Darla in Ats Season 2, and Angel in his desire to help Darla, his memories of staying with Darla for 20 years after being ensouled, she dumped him not the other way around.

Angel didn't stay with Darla for 20 years after he was resouled. The minute she found out he had a soul the kicked him to the curb. He wandered aroun by himself trying to remain the same "Angelus" he had always been, but was unable to really hurt anyone. (see "Five by Five" and "Santuary.")

Spike was made a Vampire in 1880 (see "Fool For Love.") Angel was resould in 1898. He caught up with Darla, Spike and Dru in China in 1900, during the Boxer Rebellion, but Darla was till disgusted by him, by his soul. Angel tried to come back to her, to still be Angelus because that all he'd been for 150 years. And he was still a Vampire. She only let him come back because she belived too that he could still be "Angelus." When he saved the missinaries from her and she discovered that he did it, she kicked him to the curb again.

And all the above happend within a span of a few days. (see AtS "Darla".)

Later, Angel told the human Darla that he never loved her when he had no soul because hje didn't have a soul. This dosen't mean one is incapable of loving without a soul, just that Angelus was incapable of it, because he never really knew the emotion when he was human. He was selfish when he was human, and was even more so as a vampire.

Angel is a person who can be selfish, but tries not to be. :-)

I don't expect Spike to act exactly like Angel did upon being given his soul. (As you said, they are two compleatly different beings.) However, if Spike is still Spike, then that would mean that Angel is Angelus and, therefor is responsible for all the acts that he committed when he had no soul, including the murder of Holtz family. And Holtz may have been justified in trying to get revenge upon him.

I still say the Spike as we've known him is gone, maybe not supressed, but indeed will change and become someone else, because of the soul he's now aquierd.


[> [> [> [> Re: Disagree on some points. -- shadowkat, 17:47:37 05/30/02 Thu

"I don't expect Spike to act exactly like Angel did upon being given his soul. (As you said, they are two compleatly different beings.) However, if Spike is still Spike, then that would mean that Angel is Angelus and, therefor is responsible for all the acts that he committed when he had no soul, including the murder of Holtz family. And Holtz may have been justified in trying to get revenge upon him.

I still say the Spike as we've known him is gone, maybe not supressed, but indeed will change and become someone else, because of the soul he's now aquierd."

I agree - Spike will become someone knew, but I disagree
on it being suicide or tragedy. I agree that as we've known
him - he's gone, that's true. But I do not believe that
all aspects are gone or that his reason for getting the soul
is necessarily gone.

As for Angelus, I think Angel is Angelus, but grown up. I think Liam
was the child (frat boy), angelus the adolescent, and
Angel the struggling adult. Just as William the bloody
was the child, Spike the adolescent, and whoever returns
the man/adult. At the age of 35 I am no longer what I
was as a teenager, that person is not gone, she lives inside
me, but she is no longer me. I still remember her wants
and dreams and loves, but differently. Just as the person
I was at 30 is no longer me, I've changed. We all do. It's
part of growth. Every character has changed.

Angelus still lives inside Angel, Angel would prefer to think he didn't, but it is clear he does - even to Wesely who stole Connor from Angel in Loyalty.

This is what Darla says to Angel in Dear Boy:
“What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts – even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that.”

And earlier:: "What a poster child for soulfulness you are. This is no life Angel! Before you got neutered you weren't just any vampire, you were a legend! Nobody could keep up with you - not even me. You don't learn that kind of darkness. It's innate. It was in you before we ever met. - You said you can smell me? Well, I can smell you, too. My boy is still in there and he wants out!" (Dear Boy, Ats Season 2)

So - Angel will never be redeemed until he learns to take responsibility for what Angelus did. Angelus crimes are his. His soul didn't cancel them out. He started to do that this year - for the first time with Darla and with Holtz and
finally Connor. Holtz was wrong to take vengeance on him, not because "he committed these acts when he had no soul, including the murder of Holtz family." But because vengeance
solves nothing and Angel was trying to atone, by trying to destroy Angel - Holtz was cancelling out the future good Angel was trying to do. Revenge does not bring back our loved ones - vengeance is never justified - one of the many
themes of Angel and Btvs this year.

Will Spike come back different? Sure. Is the Spike that we know
gone? Yes. Did he kill himself? Let me ask you this - did
Ripper die when Rupert Giles decided to grow up and take responsibility for his life? Do we when we decide to move
out on our own and leave childish things behind? Is that
a suicide? Or is that sacrificing the child to become an
adult? You tell me. For my part - I think the ensoulement
was not tragic or suicidal but postive, beautiful and hopeful. Spike decided to grow up. I'm curious to see what
type of man/vampire he will become. Perhaps he'll become something Buffy will love or perhaps he will just be a friend to her or perhaps he'll become a man who can go his
on way. But he's not dead, just transformed.

hope this goes through and makes sense, got disconnected four times trying to post this and my nazi workplace has forced me to do this at home now...can't visit at work any longer. ugh. ;-)

[> [> [> Loyalty -- Dochawk, 21:18:07 05/29/02 Wed

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I will add one more episode that really talks about the difference between a souled human and a "soulless" vampire. When Aubrey tells Angel and Wesley about her son (forgetting that the vampire rises the night after they have been vamped not the same night)> Angel tells her that the vamp who took her son's body was not the person who was her son and that she couldn't change him. I still think that was put in to remind us that Spike couldn't change as a vamprie and needed somethign else to change him.

[> [> [> [> Re: Loyalty -- Traveler, 12:04:39 05/30/02 Thu

"Angel tells her that the vamp who took her son's body was not the person who was her son and that she couldn't change him. I still think that was put in to remind us that Spike couldn't change as a vamprie and needed something else to change him."

I think Angel was speaking from his own personal experience here. This statement made me think of Angelus, not Spike.

[> [> As a matter of fact.... -- shygirl, 19:06:18 05/29/02 Wed

I was just reading some of the fascinating academic essays on Slayage and found a passage that is interesting. I believe several earlier posts have discussed how future plot lines are foreshadowed in other seasons... well here's one...

Xander's dream in "Restless" (4022), when Xander imagines Spike training to be a Watcher under the guidance of Buffy's mentor the Watcher Giles (and in fact Spike has recently performed some of a Watcher's informative functions).

[> [> [> Re: As a matter of fact....(painful pun) -- SpikeMom, 19:29:43 05/29/02 Wed

So if Spike comes back and becomes Giles Jr. does that make him "Mini Ripper"ton?

[> [> [> [> Ouch!!! LOL -- shygirl, 10:25:01 05/30/02 Thu

[> [> I agree he will be . . . -- Carol B., 20:16:05 05/29/02 Wed

a sort of "hybrid" of his two selves . . .I just don't think Spike will compleatly be Spike anymore. That Spike is gone. And I do think "Randy" was a forshadowing of what he might become.

Carol B.

FIC: He Wanted Me to Tell You. A last message from Spike -- LeeAnn, 04:39:01 05/29/02 Wed

A short fic.

A little sad. A little romantic. A little angsty.

He Wanted Me to Tell You

[> A little weepy. Nice! -- neaux, 09:44:47 05/29/02 Wed

[> Nice! Moving! -- Vickie, 10:12:20 05/29/02 Wed

[> Very good. -- Deeva, 10:36:59 05/29/02 Wed

[> As usual, I don't agree with you about Spike... -- Rob, 12:10:47 05/29/02 Wed

...but, with that said, it was very well-written, and I enjoyed reading it. Keep posting your stories! :o)


[> [> Agree with Rob -- shadowkat, 17:33:45 05/29/02 Wed

On Spike - it's interesting that everyone who has followed
the Angel story has forgotten one incredibily important thing - Angel retains all of Angelus' memories and emotions.
He still cares about what Angelus cared about - heck he went through trials to help Darla and was pained when he
killed her.(Angels Season1 and Darla Season 3) He also tried to get Dru to leave town instead
of killing her. (Lie to ME Season2)
In Darla, Ats Season 2 - we relive Angelus' past in Angel's
memories and even view Angel trying to win Darla, even though he has a soul which she can't stand. Later when Darla has a soul, we see her relive her memories
as the vampire and she is the same person she was as Darla.
Both Darla and Angelus got ensouled, both retained the emotions and memories of the vampires. They just got an
"extension" so to speak or "grew up" as an adolescence

I suggest you go to Psyche Transcripts if you don't have
access to the tapes and reread Darla, Dear Boy, and
all the other episodes dealing with Darla and souls in
Ats 1,2 & 3. I believe Darla may be the companion piece
to Fool for Love - though I could be wrong, the Ats episode titles i have troubles remembering. In that piece,
Angel has his soul but is still traveling with Darla and
Spike and Drusilla. In fact he was traveling with them for
20 years after being ensouled. And he clearly cared for
Darla during this period. (I think the confusion comes from
the belief that when Angel lost his soul he stopped loving
Buffy - I think he actually still cared for her - but hated
her for it. So don't let that mislead you.)

In fact, we see evidence of both Darla and Angelus in
both characters after they are ensouled. Darla even
confronts Angel with this information in I think Dear Boy.

The Soul just gives the characters a choice - a compass,
before that...they didn't have one. It's like giving
a sociopath a conscience according to MN. In Btvs - you
can only be redeemed with a soul - which is stated
in Ats Sancturary (Season 2) and Consequences (Btvs Season
3). It does not remove the things the vamp cared about,
remember the mind and personality remain - this is stated
both in Lie to Me and in episodes of Angel. (In Btvs
the more someone repeats something the more likely it's
important to the mythos.)

So...I agree with Rob, I love you're writing. But as far
as spec goes - you're completely off. I haven't figured out what
they'll do next year. But I'd bet he doesn't come back as
William with no Spike memories or Spike inside. He'll still love Buffy. But he'll probably deal with it differently. I also think
the character's going to be a little more of both, we'll just see
more and more of William - which if you've been watching,
we've already been seeing more of this past year. What we've seen is not so much a character death as a character
transformation - which they did with every character this

[> [> [> Hope you're right. -- LeeAnn, 18:33:11 05/29/02 Wed

Well, I don't want Spike dead so I hope you're right. I haven't watched much AtS so they may have changed the canon. But just remembering Angelus from Season 2, he didn't seem to me to be Angel. Angelus had Angel's memories but nothing else. If someone else used my computer they could access the data on my HD, but that wouldn't make them me. Having access to Angel's memories didn't make Angelus him. The personality, the consciousness that animated Angelus seemed to me to NOT be Angel but to be some entirely different creature who happened to be using Angel's body.

Even if it means breaking the canon, and I think it does, I hope that Spike isn't dead.

Sometimes I think AtS is so different than BtVS that it occurs in an entirely different AU. So many things happen there that never happen in Sunnydale. TPTB don't seem to exist in Sunnydale they way they do in LA nor trips to other dimensions. The kind of demons that live in LA don't seem to be in Sunnydale either. Nor even the special effects, which are almost always better on AtS than on Buffy. Sometimes I think Greenwalt had his own view of the Angelverse and screw Joss if he didn't like it.

And thanks for the review.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hope you're right. -- shadowkat, 18:02:55 05/30/02 Thu

Well for what it's worth here's a few things I heard from
writer and actor interviews:

1. Jane Epenson - "it will only be like Angel if we let it"
2. James Marsters - "I'll be back, but I'm coming back somewhat different."
3. Nicholas Brenden -"Spike's around through the end of
Season 7, he'll just have an extension."

So what I'm thinking is Carol B is right, he's coming
back transformed. Neither Spike nor childish William. What
we may see is a man. Remember somehow this vamp has to get out of Africa in one piece. We could end up with Randy.
Or something far more interesting. Personally I'm intrigued.
And who knows - perhaps Buffy can love the newly transformed
Spike better than the old immature juvenile?

Have to give the show credit - they managed to grow up
six characters at once. Tough thing to do in a tv show.
Haven't seen another one do it quite as well and I regrettably watch far too much tv. (Entertainment junkie,
what can I say.)

[> [> [> A little nit-pick -- Masq, 09:54:33 05/30/02 Thu

Well argued, but just one little point:

"Angel has his soul but is still traveling with Darla and
Spike and Drusilla. In fact he was traveling with them for 20 years after being ensouled."

Actually, it was only a few months that souled Angel traveled with Darla, Spike and Dru. He was re-ensouled in 1898. He was instantly rejected by Darla, and he wandered by himself for two years, then met up with the other three in China in 1900. He begged Darla to take him back, stayed with them for a few months of that year, then was rejected by Darla again for not killing the innocent. Angel takes the baby Darla wants him to kill and runs off.

So far, we have seen no other back story about them after this point. It is reasonable to believe they didn't meet up again until the first season of BtVS in 1997.

[> [> [> [> Re: A little nit-pick -- Ronia, 10:57:52 05/30/02 Thu

The first time we see Angel and Darla together he says last time he saw her she was into kimonos...that really suggests to me that they haven't seen each other since he left with the baby. (Angel S1)

[> [> [> [> [> But I though what Darla was wearing wasn't a kimono? That it was something else. -- VampRiley, 11:50:26 05/30/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But I though what Darla was wearing wasn't a kimono? That it was something else. -- Ronia, 12:00:48 05/30/02 Thu

Right, someone identified it as something else...but Angel never did...I felt that them having her wear that particular outfit in the parting scene was purposefull, because she is dressed in a more western style of clothing during that period of time...she only wore the...whatever it was...for the eat the baby or else scene.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It was Chinese and therefore not a kimono (Japanese). -- Masq, 12:38:05 05/30/02 Thu

You'd think Angel(us) would be sophisticated enough to know the difference. If he was, then he and Darla met up sometime after that when she was going through a Japanese phase. : )

[> [> [> [> [> [> Was it a cheong-sam? I can't remember. -- Ixchel, 22:01:50 05/30/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, it's wasn't a cheong-sam. -- Deeva, 23:38:04 05/30/02 Thu

Without digging up the tape and viewing it, I believe that Darla was wearing a Chinese style jacket (usaually worn with a long matching skirt) with some embroidery on it. It's more decorative than the common jacket but not as flashy as the celebratory ones. Long sleeves, mandarin collar and frog closures. For the life of me, I can't think of the name of it and I'm sure that I do know it, just haven't thought about it in a great while. I keep coming up with the name of the common jacket.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Deeva. I think I remember now. -- Ixchel, 16:11:07 05/31/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A little nit-pick -- shadowkat, 17:55:36 05/30/02 Thu

I'm sure I saw him with her after the baby incident and
the Boxer Rebellion. I remember a barn and straw and
Darla yelling at him and him following her like a puppy dog.
What am I remembering? I don't have Ats on
can't check. Also I was sure he and Darla were with Spike
and Dru from 1898 to 1900. (Did I miss an Ats episode
that stated otherwise? Totally possible, I don't follow
Ats as closely as Btvs.)

I agree Angelus wasn't much into love. I also remember Jane E stating they weren't doing the same thing they did with
Angel with Spike. Also Darla still loved Angel when she came back human
with a soul, big time. So it wasn't that Angel forgot his
feelings for Darla so much as it was that Angelus just never loved her...right?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A little nit-pick -- Ronia, 19:44:40 05/30/02 Thu

Well, I was thinking that the barn scene (first mention of Holtz?) was before the souling of Angelus...although, hmmm. Now I'm not so sure anymore based on the way he was acting...the writers have changed the Angel/Angelus character to fit whatever lame scenario they have going that week so many times that now I can't tell for sure who we are dealing with unless I am explicitly told by some other wait, it WAS presoul. I'm cautiously certain...'cause Holtz was after his own time. I'm gonna have to start taking NOTES fer cryin' out loud..just to keep my dates straight. Forget myth and motive...what year did they say this was?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A little nit-pick -- Ronia-and also, 19:48:06 05/30/02 Thu

Forgot to say, love your essays. I read them all at your site.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The barn scene was like 10 or 20 years after Darla sired Angelus. -- VampRiley, 06:54:11 05/31/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There has to be a site with a timeline for the fanged four-- I'll see if I can find one. -- Dyna, 14:32:32 05/31/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Buffyverse timeline -- d'Herblay, 15:31:42 05/31/02 Fri

Already linked to by Masq: JenGod's Buffyverse Timeline.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fanged four timeline -- Masq, 15:37:22 05/31/02 Fri

Found this today while being bored at work, just by coincidence!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ^ FF-centric, date-accurate, and tongue-in-cheek funny -- Masq, 15:43:26 05/31/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks if I can just figure out the Vamp timeline. -- shadowkat, 15:21:42 05/31/02 Fri

Personally, I agree I think ME isn't all that consistent
in their vampire mythology. Jane Epenseon (sp?) indicated as much in her interview on one of the Ats CD's. She said
that the audience was helpful making up excuses for them.

I admit they got me so confused on the whole Angel/Angelus
soul thing...that it makes it hard speculating on spike.
But masochistic me keeps trying anyhow.

Thanks again for your comment on my essays...;-)

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