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Fray is to Succubus Club interview with Greenberg, Espenson, and Kirchner -- Rufus, 01:28:14 05/08/03 Thu

For those who doubt that the weapon that was seen in "Touched" is the Scythe from Fray you can go hear it from the writers....Fray is canon, the scythe is the name of the weapon...and you can download the interview here

Succubus Club download

A short bit from the interview...

Jane: Has anyone commented on where they have seen this weapon before.

Drew: I saw one thing online that got it.

Jane: You have seen this weapon before.

Kitty and Candy: Please tell us.

Drew: You may have seen the weapon before...if've done you're...

Jane: It's Fray's's the scythe Fray will find in the Fray Comic books in the future.

Jane: For people who are not aware of it...Joss Whedon created a comic book character named Fray, who is a Slayer in the future, who finds this weapon which is odd because we never saw Buffy wield it......and now we have.

So, for all of you arguing about what the weapon is called's called a scythe in Fray or Buffy regardless of any online quibbles.

[> Sorry, spoilers for Buffy 7.20 Touched above.... -- Rufus, 01:30:33 05/08/03 Thu

[> Re: Fray is to Succubus Club interview with Greenberg, Espenson, and Kirchner -- CW, 07:38:18 05/08/03 Thu

Just so everyone here is clear on the original discussion, the name of the the weapon is "The Scythe." But, it's an axe. So call it either an axe, The Scythe, or Scythe. Please don't don't call it a scythe. You can call a pig Silver, but that doesn't make it the Lone Ranger's horse. Joss liked the name scythe with its symbolism, but I wish he would not have picked a name that would confuse the young and easily misled for years to come. If he'd called it "Wet Noodle," for instance, we wouldn't need to have this discussion. ;o)

[> [> Re: Fray is to Succubus Club interview with Greenberg, Espenson, and Kirchner -- Rufus, 17:26:14 05/08/03 Thu

I know, I know the darn thing looks like an axe, but I think that Joss went for the symbolic nature of the scythe....remember this is the guy who sucks at math...we can add in that he doesn't know his weapons either. The symbolic nature of the scythe (or sickle) is a strong one for death and renewal and the link to time. Now if I could only get more info on the symbolic differences between a convex and concave bladed weapon/tool

[> [> [> Re: Fray is to Succubus Club interview with Greenberg, Espenson, and Kirchner -- CW, 18:08:04 05/08/03 Thu

The thing in Fray is technically a broad axe. Broad axes have limited utility. They are fairly unwieldy compared to a regular axe or a double-bitted axe. They are used to split, not chop, wood, and also, they have been used as beheading instruments, because they reduce the possibility of a 'miss.' Given the second use, the name the Scythe, as in Grim Reaper, is not unreasonable, but you can bet from now on young future fans of Buffy will confuse Scythe, the name, with scythe, implement. Naughty Joss. ;o)

[> [> [> Convex vs Concave -- O'Cailleagh, 18:37:16 05/08/03 Thu

OK, so I'm not entirely sure if this can be applied to weaponry or not, but here goes.
The curved, or crescent, shape as established, is a Lunar (although not necessarily Feminine) symbol. It is also a horn symbol.
One prime example of this symbol in magickal usage is the horseshoe. When displayed with the 'horns' pointing upwards (concave) the horseshoe is thought to gather 'good luck' or positive energy. Ordinary people would only display it this way. Blacksmiths however, who were thought of as magickal people, displayed the shoe 'horns' down (convex) in order to pour that positive energy onto the forge and anvil.
This can be linked to the cycle of the moon, concave being the waxing crescent (gathering), and convex the waning (dissipating).
Which brings us back to the birth-death-rebirth symbolism of both the scythe/sickle and the labrys (which we are agreed is not the weapon in Fray).
Concave items, such as bowls, cups, and the cauldron, are symbols of the Womb of the Mother (again with the rebirth).
Convex items, ritually speaking, are few and far between, at least I can't think of any truly convex tool/symbol.
Looking again at Fray in the TOTS story, I was intrigued to notice her tattoo, a triple-crescent-moon, in connection with all this Lunar symbolism. Also, the stake-weapon that the First Slayer has looks exactly like the handle of the Scythe.
Hope that helped a little....

[> [> [> [> Axes...a nearly fruitless search -- O'Cailleagh, 20:36:46 05/08/03 Thu

I've been googling and searching for hours (lucky me-insomniac *and* obsessive!) looking for stuff that might relate to the Scythe and the best that I've found is a site about Mayan stuff. It has a page on the symbolism of axes and sceptres with a couple of pics that are reminiscent of the Scythe...kinda.
The addy is
Couldn't link directly cos its confusing and strange!
Nothing on the concave/convex thing (which was the point of my search!) but some interesting info on the shape of the blade generally.


[> [> [> [> Re: Convex vs Concave -- Rufus, 01:28:13 05/09/03 Fri

Thanks...I've been looking up blades and couldn't find that husband only knows about blades for camping, or guns. I knew the scythe was coming up in the show and knew that the main quibble people would have would be over the shape of the blade...I just decided that the shape of the blade means less than the symbolic nature of the title "scythe" that Joss gave it. I do have to admit my husband seems to be getting a little nervous wondering why I want to know about curved blades...maybe that will get him to take the garbage out faster....;)

[> [> [> [> Melaka's tattoo is a biohazard symbol -- KdS, 03:28:14 05/09/03 Fri

See for an example of use in context. It's the standard international hazard label for live disease-causing organisms or medical waste contaminated with body fluids. It became a popular tattoo symbol in the last few years for reasons I'm not aware of - possibly because of the high profile of genetic engineering, possibly because the symbol was used on the sharps boxes used for the safe disposal of used tattoo needles, possibly because of the rock group Biohazard, although I think that came later. It may even have started as a sort of ironic badge of courageously accepting one's misfortune among HIV+ people. Don't know if the Fray artists knew what it actually means, or if they just thought it looked cool.

[> [> [> [> [> So it is..... -- O'Cailleagh, 09:50:30 05/09/03 Fri

I really should pay attention to the Outside World from time to time!
It is also a Pagan/Magickal symbol, though not one of the more common ones. Such symbols are often reappropriated, such as the Witches Foot, more commonly known these days as the CND symbol.

[> The Dead Horse! It's alive! Hit it! -- Darby, 09:05:58 05/08/03 Thu

Okay, now Greenberg is claiming that they meant Tara's death to fit into the Dead Lesbian Cliche, so that they could "subvert" it, and we among the Great Unwashed and the "so-called gay press" (the others called him on that turn of phrase) just didn't get it.

Of course, 30 seconds later one of the women (I couldn't tell who was who from voices) claimed that they were were just treating Tara "like any other character." Ehh, whatever.

One interesting tidbit: for Conversations With Dead People, Jane wrote Dawn, Drew Goddard wrote Spike, Joss wrote Buffy-Holden (did everybody see the actor on Angel last night-?) and Marti wrote Willow.

And the parallels between Buffy's War and George W's are all coincidence - Buffy's war was plotted out last summer, after all, so that makes sense. They seem none-too-happy about the resemblances now.

And Jane Espenson's going to Gilmore Girls.

[> [> Isn't there an entire corral of Dead Horses roving around in here? -- WickedAponia :>, 09:59:17 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> Not any more...... -- O'Cailleagh (finishing last mouthful), 09:55:56 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> I'm making a scrapbook solely dedicated to your hilarious comments! :D -- WickedBuffy, 11:46:03 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> Re: The Dead Horse! It's alive! Hit it! -- Rob, 10:05:48 05/08/03 Thu

"One interesting tidbit: for Conversations With Dead People, Jane wrote Dawn, Drew Goddard wrote Spike, Joss wrote Buffy-Holden (did everybody see the actor on Angel last night-?) and Marti wrote Willow."

Very interesting detail, and it makes complete sense, too. If I was going to guess which writer wrote which of each of the scenes, that's probably how I would guess, although since I didn't know Joss wrote any of it, I assumed Drew wrote the Buffy-Holden stuff too.


[> [> <Puzzled expression> -- Tchaikovsky, 10:10:49 05/08/03 Thu

One interesting tidbit: for Conversations With Dead People, Jane wrote Dawn, Drew Goddard wrote Spike, Joss wrote Buffy-Holden (did everybody see the actor on Angel last night-?) and Marti wrote Willow.

Don't have the time or immediate ability to download this interview, but if Drew Goddard wrote Spike, then that's pretty much nothing. Are we assuming he wrote the Jonathan/Andrew scenes as well. I've only seen CwDP in the last week, and thought it was a marvellous episode, mostly because of how the fragmented episodes were so nicely nuanced in different styles. This explains it well. I have ot say that the Holden/Buffy exchamges just leap off the screen at you, and I'm not remotely surprised that it was the inspired scribblings of Joss. But how did they come to the decision to credit it to Jane and Drew?


[> [> [> Yup, yup, yup, that too, sorry... -- Darby, 10:28:13 05/08/03 Thu

I was drawing a blank on the remaining storyline and hadn't clearly heard what was said.

[> [> [> Re: <Puzzled expression> -- lunasea, 14:00:30 05/08/03 Thu

They all wrote it in 2 days, which is why there are so many writers. They sat down at a table with paper and pens and had a blast. They would write something and then show it to the others. Drew was so happy. I liked his interview last week better than Jane, Ultimate Drew and RRK this week. I beat both Drew and Candy at Kitty torture last week. I was so proud of myself.

An episode can only have so many writers listed. Joss and Marti are already listed as executive producers, so they are pretty important to all scripts.

[> [> Drew Goddard wrote Andrew/Jonathan -- lunasea, 13:49:28 05/08/03 Thu

His interview was last week. It was great.

They were worried how Jane would take killing off Jonathan, so Joss and Drew prepared an alternative ending where Jonathan was saved by a hot air balloon to show her. She actually thought the whole thing was done really well and didn't mind at all.

[> [> Re: The Dead Horse! It's alive! Hit it! -- Rufus, 17:20:31 05/08/03 Thu

Okay, now Greenberg is claiming that they meant Tara's death to fit into the Dead Lesbian Cliche, so that they could "subvert" it, and we among the Great Unwashed and the "so-called gay press" (the others called him on that turn of phrase) just didn't get it.

Greenberg has a point. He wondered why the press didn't go to the gay writer on the staff of Buffy and ask what he felt. I wasn't aware Greenberg is gay but he did say it isn't a secret to the press.

Here is part of the response to someone who wrote SFX about Tara....

Buffy's mum had just been on a date when she died. Giles looked like he was on for a sure-fire shag with Jenny Calendar just before she was offed. Does that mean that the show is heterophobic? Of course not. And it's not as if Willow suddenly turned straight after Tara's deah. She's now 'normal' again and still very much a lesbian. You should be congratulating the show for showing a positive gay relationship for so long. It's easy for people versed in intellectual analysis of the arts to politicise such scenes. The fact is, most viewers would react to Tara's death on a purely dramatic level - that it was shocking, a tragedy and that Willow must be devastated - rather than read into it some agenda (or extract from it some subconscious agenda.) Anybody in danger of interpreting Tara's death as meaning that gay people are bad would be too bigoted to be watching a show which spotlight a gay couple in a positive way in the first place. More valuable is the fact that previously homo-wary viewers will have grown to accept Willow and Tara's relationship, so that when Tara died, they were caring about a character whom they previously would have had problems identifying with, rather than thinking 'ah well, she was only a lezzer'. Which can only be a good thing, surely. But when are we going to get a male homosexual relationship in Buffy or Angel? Now that would be groundbreaking for US telefantasy.

- Dave.

I had to look at the situation and come to some conclusions....was ME just a bunch of gay hating creeps, did they intend to show everyone that gay people are evil and should die? I don't think so. When Tara died it wasn't because she had sex, it wasn't because she was gay...she was in the right place (with Willow) at the wrong time. The timing of the death could be taken as the lesbian cliche, but only if that is the true intent of the writers. I love the character of Tara and her death was tragic and show just how subject a person can be to chance. I don't see her death as a negative comment on lesbians, but a comment on people who hate enough to start shooting and not care who they hit. It's too bad that for everything the writers did to make Tara and Willow a convincing couple that some will reject all the good the writers did and take a lot of time to try to destroy a show they once loved so much. I feel for people who honestly love Tara as a character, the fact that so many people (gay or straight) grew to love Tara is progress in a world where many still think gays don't belong.

[> [> [> Re: The Dead Horse! It's alive! Hit it! (Spoilers to Touched) -- s'kat, 18:03:04 05/08/03 Thu

I agree. The interview at the Succubus club is interesting because it goes on to say:

Jane Espenson (pretty sure it was Espenson and not RKK)
seems to say she's gay too and wrote for Ellen. She backs up Greenberg and says they didn't ask her either. Although she understands why no one may have thought to interview Drew Greenberg since he is a gay man. They mention how it was meant as a subversion on the cliche, which actually all their stories are if you watch carefully enough.

In the cliche - the lesbian is shown as a weak lonely character with no one and usually is the one doing the killing or gets killed. Films like Muhulland Drive
show this. In SR - Willow and Tara were celebrating their love, everyone was on board with it and Tara's death was an accident caused by a lonely man who couldn't get women. The person who was doing the killing and pays for it in the end is a man who can't get women and hates women for it. It's a twist on the cliche.

Another interesting tid-bit - in doing Willow and Kennedy, they felt a need to show a sex scene. To show Willow being able to move on. Kennedy was meant to be Riley in a way for Willow (the writers state). The network censors objected to the tongue lick but Whedon insisted they leave it in and ignore the censors - that we see men on TV licking womens necks all the time, we should be able to show a woman doing it. So they left it in and UPN didn't censor it.

Personally I've always seen it as subversion of the cliche.

[> [> [> [> Great thoughts, you two. I agree with both of you wholeheartedly. -- Rob, 19:04:27 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: The Dead Horse! It's alive! Hit it! (Spoilers to Touched) -- Darby, 06:01:07 05/09/03 Fri

The problem is that the early reaction from ME was

- cliche? There's a cliche? We don't know what you're talking about.

- This was planned for years, and would have been Oz is he had stayed (it also was planned to happen in the coffee shop, not the bedroom, but they don't mention this).

- How can you accuse us of being anti-gay?

This latest just seems to underline that they still don't get it. The problem with what happened was that, as writers do on occasion, they stumbled into a fairly well-established (and, in the gau community, well-known) cliche and, with some differences due to working with an ongoing storyline, basically followed the pattern step-by-step. We've all seen them take cliches on and subvert them - that's not what happened here.

But ME, who earlier had just gone, "Oops! We didn't see the penis-monster until people noticed it in post-production! Our bad!" dug their heels in and reacted with a "How dare you?" to the Dead Lesbian Cliche accusations.

If someone had said something like, "We hadn't even planned it to look this way, but this is the first that a network would let us really put Willow and Tara together, then time and set constraints made us have to kill Tara in the bedroom. If we had seen the subtext ahead of time, we wouldn't have done it this way. We in no way meant to bolster the classic stereotype that gays get punished by the life if they act on their urges, even if that's what kind of wound up on screen."

And now they are claiming that they subverted the cliche, which implies they meant to do it that way. Sorry, it still was an uncharacteristic bout of Bad Writers' Syndrome, or at least that's how I see it. I sometimes think that the critical acclaim and industry rep has gone to ME's collective head. Most people here write, and all of us have probably been asked, "Did you mean to trot out this old thing here?" and you go, "Crap! I didn't even realize I was doing that!" The last few eps of a season are a race against the clock - I'm not surprised that this kind of gaffe got in, I'm just upset that a group I respect wouldn't own up to it.

Oh, Jane's not gay - she just thought that having been an Ellen writer would have given her some credibility for interviewers. This "They should have talked to me" bit may be retconning, too, as I also suspect that the staff at the time was ducking the press - the few that did speak publicly pulled the firestorm down on them, and they seemed as a group to withdraw around this time last year.

Hey, I figure that if we're going to haul the dead horse out, I should give it a few good whacks!

[> [> [> [> [> Bad horse! Stay dead! -- dream, 11:13:24 05/09/03 Fri

I always thought they were subverting the cliche - because when is the lesbian character who dies ever terribly beloved by all other characters in the piece, and her death treated as a terrible, senseless tragedy?

So the writers said it wasn't, then it was, or they noticed, then they didn't. This tells me that the writers aren't good at public relations. It doesn't tell me much about the story. That's why I usually don't bother with writer interviews. They have other agendas to deal with, including the network's. The story stands on its own.

I was pretty sure that they noticed the penis monster, too.

[> Interesting discussion (spoilers to Touched) -- s'kat, 12:16:47 05/08/03 Thu

They say some interesting stuff and discuss the planning behind Touched and Empty Places.

Some quotes:

-It is Empty Places NOT Spaces - apparently someone on staff accidently put Spaces at the top of the script and they had it changed. And are pissed at people for continuing to get it wrong.

- They intended that the audience be split on the whole kicking Buffy out of the house bit. They also worked hard to make it look both like being kicked out and her just deciding to walk out and leave. It was important to Greenberg and company that people debate that last scene. They don't see it one way or the other.

-The writers all blocked out Empty Places - since didn't know at the outset who'd write it and Kirschner was working hard on getting certain points - so it would flow right into her episode - she needed to get the Spike/Buffy moment.
Apparently it was important to get that.

-There was a whole fake concluding episode written and shot
according to Jane Espenson.

- The writers know the whole emotional arc of their main characters. Buffy's is always spelled out. Agenda was to return to the feeling of early episodes particularly in beginning episodes. Get off on a lighter foot, telling the old stories, and getting back into the world of the high school again - because high school as hell strongest metaphor.

- Writers knew it was the end. Both Sara and Joss expressed desire to move on. It seemed like time. Shows have a life span you don't want to go beyond it.

- There's some merit to deconstructing Buffy - For Whedon it has to mean something in order to be put in it. Apparently some writer brought a published essay on Reptile Boy to Whedon. He said people can find meaning in anything. He reads it and says "uhm actually that's what I was going for when we did that episode".

- Some talk the FE would be embodied in the body of Buffy at the end of the season, but they decided that no it was better to have her fight a man, even as tempting as the final image would have been for Buffy on Buffy fight, better to have the empowered female fight a man. (Dang it!
There went that theory!!!)

Worth wading through a lot of stuff.

[> [> oh some future spec...regarding the villain -- s'kat, 12:21:37 05/08/03 Thu

[> Some Goddardy Goodness from the same source. -- Darby, 05:34:38 05/09/03 Fri

Listened to the interview with New! Drew last night. He was fairly interesting, when he could get a word in edgewise. Here are some paraphrased highlights -

Buffy was Drew's favorite show, before he became a writer on it. He came to Hollywood and worked as a Production Assistant right out of college (U of Colorado, Boulder), and most of his days seemed to be spent in discussions of the show with the other PAs.

He wrote a spec script for Six Feet Under and began to pass it out to the producers his PA job had brought him into contact with. It must have been one helluva script (Rob, any chance your contacts could scare up a copy?), because within a week his "phone was ringing off the hook." Marti Noxon, who had somehow gotten a copy of his script, invited him to lunch and offered him a job - what he describes as his "dream job."

Soon thereafter, Davis Greenwalt called him and offered him a job on Angel. He seemed to think that he needed to explain what the show was about, but Drew picked up the synopsis and finished it for him. Joss, who of course had final say, picked him for Buffy because "Marti had him first." This, remember, for someone who had never had a writing job before.

In his second meeting with Marti, he took his unspoiled self down to set, where in about 60 seconds a spate of Buffy exposition gave away most of the end of Season 6 to him ("...Willow flayed Warren alive because he killed Tara..."). They went upstairs to talk, and Joss wandered in, giving Drew one of those "Hommina hommina hommina" moments that made him sure he'd blown it.

He spent the summer between meetings and production (everyone else's hiatus) watching every show, making notes, especially of things he'd like to see. He figured that was the way it was done, but when he showed up with a pile of notes, the other writers set him straight.

The writing sequence for the shows goes by seniority, but when Drew started, there were three shows going. Plus, Marti and Doug Petrie's wife had just had babies. When Drew's turn came up to write Selfless, he was in an empty room, with an assignment to write his first real script for his favorite show. Fortunately for him, he was able to spend the week on the Firefly set with Joss (he's an extra in one of the market scenes), and they put the show together, together, and he really got a feel for how to do it.

As shadowkat mentions above, Conversations With Dead People was split among four writers, each of whom handled different storylines - it needed to be done in 2 days. He was amazed at how thematically linked they were, but now knows that's how Joss works.

Collaborations vary. When he and David Fury wrote Lies My Parents Told Me, they wrote and rewrote each other back-and-forth. He really likes Fury's writing.

Everyone was excited when they found out Faith was coming back. Drew loves Faith - he really sees her as the only truly viable spinoff character (he might not feel as strongly on that as I just made it sound) - and he loves Eliza Dushku, who he says "is" Faith. He could hardly believe that he got to write the first ED - JM interactions for Dirty Girls.

There was some on Caleb, but except for the XY vs Buffy's XX, not much of substance. They kept trying to cast a "Nathan Fillion" type (Fury told Drew way ahead of time that they would wind up casting NF himself) before grabbing the real deal.

If Angel continues, he figures he'll probably go there.

That's all I remember right now. It was interesting, except when the interviewers got discussing the show and forgot that he was there. They were much better at the interview that started this thread - but they were outnumbered there. If you want to listen, the segments are 2 hours long (the file says about 2:20, but it's not, or at least I don't know what the extra 20 minutes is), include some Buffy-themed music (including the Buffy theme music!), and it takes them forever to settle down after their breaks!

[> [> Thanks Darby! -- ponygirl, 06:52:10 05/09/03 Fri

For those of us who keep getting memos about downloading and streaming audio at work your summary was muchly appreciated!

Drew! Drew!

[> [> Thanks- very interesting. -- Tchaikovsky, 07:20:18 05/09/03 Fri

Never been an avid watcher of Angel but....(spoilers for Home) -- Mystery, 04:40:50 05/08/03 Thu

Last night's show was fantastic, and I am going to equate it to "Beginnings" as far as personal signifigance goes. Before, I would glance in on Angel, read summaries and tidbits, just to keep up with the storyline, that way, if I did want to watch it on account of a Buffy-crossover, I could without much confusion. And that's the whole reason I decided to watch last night's episode.

And I'm so glad I did.

If they do not renew the show, especially in light of the polls and the whole new direction the story is going, someone at WB is truly stupid. Yet if they don't, Joss really allowed Angel to go with hardcore completion.

I love the ending with Connor, it was beautiful and SO typically Angel (he's always ready to sacrifice his own happiness to save others. I think it might be part and parcel of the curse, or at least something he's told himself he must do). Although Connor's not really the Buffyverse character I wanted this to happen to. Yup, you guessed it, I would have loved to see Buffy in that scenario. Happy family, normal life, and then the ending is Dawn watching her from a crystal while Willow touches her shoulder and then Dawn takes a spot between Willow and Xander and begins to give a lecture (scholarly-type) to a group of potentials. Pan out and you see in another classroom, Andrew and Amanda lecturing about demon physiology (or something), and then go to the library where Wood, Anya and Giles are helping students pick out books, and then to the gym where Kennedy and Faith are running potentials through training, and finally outside to the sign that used to say Sunnydale High, and have it say something like Slayer Academy: Hellmouth. Or something not as cheesy...:-D

Then the spin-off can be them teaching the Potentials, rebuilding the council (oh yeah, nice mention of it's destruction on Angel...did they mention it before?), and the occasional random warning/prophecy from Wesley over at W&H. Maybe even a weapon or two from Fred. But of course we know this can't really happen because Eliza Dushku has signed on for a different series. But maybe Faith can die and Amanda gets called (she seems to have the strongest fighting instincts. Yes, Kennedy's better, but Amanda's never had training and she can kick ass).


Ok, lost my original point...Yeah, I'm an Angel fan now. I look forward to what they will do next season now that they have the resources of Wolfram & Hart: LA. Plus, I also look forward to guest appearances from Buffy alum. :-)

Has Angel sold his soul to the devil??? -- Darla, 05:09:12 05/08/03 Thu

Has Angel sold his soul to the devil? Does that mean he can never redeem himself, or Shanshu and become human again? Will he go to hell no matter what when he eventually dies?

[> No he made a sacrafice -- Mackenzie, 06:34:33 05/08/03 Thu

He made a sacrifice for Connor. The sacrifice will have consequences, either good or bad. Angel really understands what it means to be a parent. It is all about sacrifice. As I am finding out with my pregnancy that it is a sacrifice from day one. Angel may never become human but he gave his son the chance to live a normal human life. In the world of karma I'd say that is a homerun.

[> [> Re: No he made a sacrafice -- maddog, 09:17:25 05/08/03 Thu

When you say that Angel may never be human it makes me think...he's more human than most humans are. He's just not physically able to be just a human again.

[> [> [> Thats precisely his problem... -- Corwin of Amber, 11:34:25 05/08/03 Thu

Angel's more human in his attitudes and actions than 90% of the human race...yet he refuses to see that and be content. He has to start believing in his own goodness.

[> [> [> [> Re: Thats precisely his problem... -- maddog, 12:04:05 05/08/03 Thu

Where isn't he content? He doesn't fight because he thinks he isn't human. He fights because he believes that it's his obligation for all the wrong he's done.

[> I haven't seen this episode yet!!! Please, no spoilers in the message titles. -- Robert, 06:53:52 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> Sorry - thought it was ok after it was aired. -- Darla, 07:16:32 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> yes, but not in subject lines -- anom, 10:44:01 05/08/03 Thu

What may not be clear is that "spoiler" doesn't refer to info only about aired eps. That's why people talk about "spoilers" for movies that are currently in theaters--folks who haven't seen the movie yet don't want to know ahead of time. People who live outside the U.S.--or even in some parts of it--don't have the episodes broadcast for days to months after you see them. Even we happy...uh, many who live where the eps are 1st shown have been known to screw up taping them while we were out but don't want to hold off on reading the board to avoid spoilers till some kind poster or real-life local friend gets a cassette of it to us.

Spoilers inside the message--even spoilers for future eps--are OK if they're clearly labeled in the subject line. The more specific the better--that's why you see things like "spoilers for [ep title*]" or "future spoilers." The rest of the subject line can then be made vague enough not to give anything away to those who don't know yet. For example, your initial post might have been labeled "Deal with the devil? (spoilers for 'Home')"--which wouldn't have given anything away to those who don't know the context. (If anyone thinks that's not vague enough, please let me know!)
*or number--but I don't want to encourage use of ep no's., 'cause I can't keep track of 'em after about no. 8 of each season & once got spoiled when I didn't realize a labeled spoiler was for an ep that hadn't aired yet!

[> [> [> [> In defense of Darla - that title wasn't a spoiler. Do direct info, just a concept. VAGUE at that. -- Briar Rose, 17:19:05 05/08/03 Thu

[> Another question -- Darla, 07:19:37 05/08/03 Thu

Has the fake prophacy been fulfilled? Does this mean they were true. Did the father really kill the son?

[> [> I think he did! spoilers HOME -- WickedBuffy, 08:37:45 05/08/03 Thu

He killed the memory of his son, it appears. Which, in a sense, on many levels but not all, could be considered killing him.

But "killing" in this sense means "wiping out of existence" wihtout necessarily meaning our usual definition of homicide.

Kind of like the "If a tree falls in a forest ..." quote.

[> When exactly did he do this? -- maddog, 09:11:57 05/08/03 Thu

[> The Fine Print ( Spoilers HOME) -- WickedBuffy, 09:49:15 05/08/03 Thu

We haven't seen the paperwork yet OR heard what the contracts were.

They are all aware of the little extra clauses in W&H agreements. (And Wes has even seen one, Lilahs.) And also aware of W&H slippery lawyering skills.

But it seems that no matter how hardpressed or impressed they were, it's a step they would be incredibly careful about officially getting into.

Except maybe Gunn - he looked bespelled or something more than just taller.

A Grander Notion for Gunn-Home spoilers -- neaux, 05:20:33 05/08/03 Thu

A Grander Notion for Gunn-

Being the stupid person that I am, it wasn't until after I finished watched Home that I realized the Black Panther in the white room... had a waaay more important message for Gunn than my sci-fi mind was thinking. So Duh, Gunn is presented with an uncaged animal, a black panther. This is the most obvious representation of The Black Panther Party of the 60's.

The Black Panther Party as I have read were known for their armed struggle for equal rights and freedom. While I originally thought This mission could be something great for Gunn , I realize what he saw was more than a mission. I used to look to Gunn as mission based. He felt like he was the muscle of the AI group and limited himself to missions, hence his James Bondian escapades. But at W&H he is now presented with more than a mission. I believe what he saw in the panther's eyes, was LEADER material. He wanted the encouragement and validation to lead and I believe that is what he saw.


You can't be saved by a lie...spoilers for Home -- Rufus, 06:53:33 05/08/03 Thu

The season finale was an ending and a begining. Wolfram and Hart has offered the LA office to the guy who ended World's the least they could do. But I'm going to deal with an ending...the end of Connor.

Angel had no idea where his son was til he saw him on TV...holding hostages for no apparent reason. Angel went to the place Connor had his hostages and spoke to his son.......

Connor: You got in...... I thought you might.

Angel: Connor? Son?

Connor: You might not want to move...the people are rigged too...can't save em all, dad. Don't know who is going to go first....could be anyone of them....could be me...could be her (Cordy on the floor wired like everyone else).

Angel: Son, you have to listen to me...this is about Jasmine.

Connor: Jasmine's gone.

Angel: I know...we all felt it...that perfect love...and when we had to give it up.

Connor: I didn't feel anything! I can't feel anything....I guess I really am your son...cause I'm dead too.

Angel: You're not're just starting your life.

Connor: just weren't there before.

Angel: I know...I'm so.....

Connor: Do not day that you're sorry...doesn't fix anything.

Angel: Okay..let me say this...I love you son.

Connor: It's a lie.

Angel: It's not.

Connor: It's always a dead mother couldn't even love me.

Angel: You're wrong...she did.

Connor: she couldn't.

Angel: She sacrificed herself because she loved you.

Connor: You tried to love least I think you did.

Angel: I still do.

Connor: Not enough to hang on let him take let him get let him get swore you loved me...where are you now?

Angel: Connor, you have to believe that there are people who love you.

Connor: Jasmine believed you when you said you loved her...but it was all a lie.

Angel: Jasmine was the lie.

Connor: No! She knew if you found out who she really was that you'd turn against her..and she was right..that's just what happened...people like you....people like this...none of you deserve what she could give you..she wanted to give you everything.

Angel: I know how that feels...cause I want to give you everything. I want to take back the you start over.

Connor: We can't start all over.

Angel: We can...I mean we can change things.

Connor: There's only one thing that ever changes anything..and that's death. Everything else is just a can't be saved by a can't be saved at all.

Angel and Connor fight, Angel stands over his son with a knife in his hand.....

Angel: I really do love you Connor.

Connor: So, what are you going to do about it?

Angel: Prove it.

When we first saw Connor he was sheltered in his fathers arms against the rain in the alley he was born....the last Angel saw of his infant son was Holtz taking him into the Quor Toth dimension.

Connor shouldn't have existed, he was a device to help bring forth the perfect love of Jasmine. But Connor never shared the feeling of love that Jasmine gave everyone else. He never felt a love that was anything but a lie, so when he met his father again, he couldn't trust Angel's feelings or words. All Connor saw was the Champion...a workaholic with no time off.....he may not be able to save them all but he wasn't going to stop trying. There was no time to hold onto his troubled son. After all Connor did from the deep six summer, to sleeping with Cordy....Angel still didn't stop loving Connor.....but Connor can't get past the lies, past the pain, and live in this world. So Angel proved his love and made Connor a new family...sisters, mother, ten percentile in school....when we last see Connor it's in his new families dining room....tosting his success in school, his happy life. Last clear words from Connor are "To Family".

Good bye Connor.....Hello broody avenger.

[> Re: You can't be saved by a lie...spoilers for Home -- purplegrrl, 08:15:08 05/08/03 Thu

Makes you want to cry.

I just wonder if Angel will *ever* get to have a life (or some semblance of one). He can't have or be with Buffy because of the whole soul-stealing-horizontal-mambo thing -- but he has the memory of their one perfect day together. He can't have Conner because his son was never meant to be and was used as a pawn by the Big Evil Divinity -- but he's the only one who remembers he actually had a son.

How many more good works does Angel have to perform before he can be redeemed? Or are the Powers That Be on permanent vacation? Or is this part of the Gypsy curse that gave Angelus back his soul to create Angel? To always be on the brink of happiness, contentment, something. To be so close that you can almost taste it, but it is snatched out of your grasp at the last instant. I'm not talking about "perfect happiness". Knowing what he knows now, Angel will probably never have a moment of perfect happiness again. I'm just talking about little happinesses. The kind that come in day-to-day living (or in Angel's case, existing). Friendship; knowing what you do really does make a difference to someone; perhaps an easing of his burden. To not have to make compromises with evil entities. Maybe then Angel could be the not-so-broody avenger.

[> This Happy LIfe---Spoilers for Home -- Arethusa, 08:18:52 05/08/03 Thu

Connor's never known anything but fear and pain. The love he thought he had from Holtz and Jasmine was a lie. And finally, he just stop feeling anything but rage and hate. If he had not been given his new life, he would have had to be locked up and restrained in a padded cell to keep from killing himself or others, possibly for decades. Fred was able to recover from her demon dimnesion, but she had a stable and lovng background to help her survive and recover. Connor had nothing. His feelings towards his father were so filled with anger and resentment that there was nothing Angel could do to help him. So Angel gave him one more lie to live with, but this lie saves his life.

Who wouldn't give up their child to give him happiness, love and a future? Especially when the alternative is death or imprisonment. Angel gave up his only chance to be called Dad, to somehow undo what he did to his own family. Instead, he gave a family to his son-a mom and dad, two sisters and their brother-the same as Holtz's family.

I devoutly hope that that's not the last we see of the boy, whatever new name he has now. No doubt Angel will keep an eye on him, helping him whenever he can.

I'm going to miss Angel and Darla's son. Good-bye, dear boy.

[> You *can* be saved by a lie...spoilers for Home -- WickedBuffy, 08:29:31 05/08/03 Thu

"Connor: There's only one thing that ever changes anything..and that's death. Everything else is just a can't be saved by a can't be saved at all."

When Connor said that, did he mean "life" was a lie? or Love?

Probably the latter, right? Because then Angel DID change everything, thru his love (The Wolfram & Hart agreement was just the vehicle to really show his love.)

It sounds strange to say this - but Kudos to Wolfram & Hart! Without them, this probably couldn't have happened.

And again, Angel makes the ultimate sacrifice to show his love for someone - as in with Buffy - by letting them go.

Its interesting, though, how from another perspective, Connor is now living a lie. And has (by our standards) been saved by it. (Saved from where he was headed, the utter despair he felt, all the memories of the horrors of the past.) Then again, is it so much a lie as it is just another truth? Again, perspective. What he has now, is Connors truth.

But I disagree about Connor "shouldn't have existed". It's like Angel said, there are all kinds of reasons children exist - who judges who has the right to exist"? (OK, not gettinginto abortion issues, or death penalty stuff... you get the idea I'm stetching for, eh?)

[> We first saw Connor -- lunasea, 11:52:17 05/08/03 Thu

When we first saw Connor he was sheltered in his fathers arms against the rain in the alley he was born

Actually, the first time was on the ground after his mother had dusted herself to save him. Angel then picked him up.

I wouldn't be so sure Angel is going to return to brooding. He'll probably be too busy for that. He might actually enjoy some of the perks he now gets.

[> [> about his new perks - I hope it's a few new romantic interests. -- WickedBuffy (maybe even at the same time), 15:01:19 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> Re: We first saw Connor -- Rufus, 16:55:22 05/08/03 Thu

To explain.....if you look at the dialogue and to what I say you might get what I was going for....and that was Angel had a hold on Connor in that alley....and Connor speaks about Angel letting him go, letting him (Holtz) get him. I highly doubt Connor would be on the street longer than he was in Angel's arms. The family that Connor longed for was impossible while he was Angel's son. There would always be the constant battle, the constant taking a back seat to the duties of a Champion. If Connor was a well adjusted kid he may have been able to cope, but he isn't. Connor is a scared kid who has been abandoned (Holtz) and lied to, Angel made a sacrifice, giving up the son he loved over everything, so Connor could have the chance to do what Angel saw...toast "family" in a safe warm, less than cruel world. If you think that the burden of losing a son that noone but he will remember won't contribute to brooding time then you don't know Angel.

[> [> [> Re: We first saw Connor (spoiler home and 7.21) -- lunasea, 17:36:53 05/08/03 Thu

Actually, I think that Angel picking Connor up from the street and trying to shelter him from the rain is a nice contrast to Angel letting go of him (which Connor accuses him of earlier) so he could have a normal life. He picked Connor up from the street after his mother left him (for good reasons) and gave him to a good family.

I guess the image that really stuck with me was Darla's dusting and the baby being left there totally defenseless. That is how Connor started out. It made Angel picking him up and sheltering him that much more powerful.

I liked the scene with Connor. The toast is to family, but the preceeding conversation is about Connor leaving. Connor's age is key here. Connor is at the age when he is leaving home. If he doesn't have that background, he isn't going to get it. If he doesn't get it, he won't make it. Connor has to make his own way in the world. Angel tried to give him a chance to do that this season, but Connor just didn't have it in him to deal. It isn't just about Angel's circumstances, but where Connor is in life.

As for the brooding, I am going to trust Greenwalt when he promises a lighter series next season. He will have a few months to brood off camera. Doesn't seem to be brooding in the trailer for next week. Actually seems, well, I think the word is happy.

For your amusement: The Television Without Pity "recaplet" of "Home" -- cjl, 08:02:40 05/08/03 Thu

To: Mutant Enemy
From: Warner Bros.
Subject: Renewing Angel

Congratulations on completing another season of Angel! Over the past two years, you have completed an epic storyline, in which detailed plotting and complex characterization have played important roles, and your storytelling abilities have won praise from diverse quarters. We at Warner Bros. appreciate the craftmanship you have put into this season's work, and have a few small suggestions that would ensure a speedy renewal. Or at least a speedy consideration for renewal.

1. Gunn seems to be at loose ends. Isn't this an SF show? He should have superpowers.

2. The memory-wipe related to Dawn's insertion into Buffy has been immensely popular. Please try to replicate it on your show. Perhaps everyone could forget that Connor ever existed? Our polls indicate that the audience loves to be fucked with.

3. In your original draft, the MoG reject material goods in favor of some kind of "ethical standards." We have questioned everyone in the entertainment industry regarding this mystical notiion of "ethics" and so far have received only blank looks. Please do away with this notion, as it may confuse the audience.

4. Viewers find it difficult to catch up with the show when the characters' relationships are based on complex developments going back several years. We suggest that the characters are all pals. No further details of their relationships is required.

We highly recommend working these suggestions into your season finale, regardless of how much sense they make.

Yours demonically,
Warner Bros.

[> LOL! first morning laugh. -- s'kat, 08:16:53 05/08/03 Thu

I particularly loved these two points:

3. In your original draft, the MoG reject material goods in favor of some kind of "ethical standards." We have questioned everyone in the entertainment industry regarding this mystical notiion of "ethics" and so far have received only blank looks. Please do away with this notion, as it may confuse the audience.

After all who would give up a corner office with sunlight in this day and age. Or a pet panther? Or your own research lab?

4. Viewers find it difficult to catch up with the show when the characters' relationships are based on complex developments going back several years. We suggest that the characters are all pals. No further details of their relationships is required.


Thank you.

PS: in case anyone is wondering, I did enjoy Home.

[> Re: Ethics -- Celebaelin, 10:12:13 05/08/03 Thu

Exhaustive research has generated the following definition of "Ethics"

Ethics is a county of England. Located in the Southern portion of East Anglia, including certain parts of North East London, and marked by low lying islands in river estuaries. It is known for blondes in white stillettos with matching handbags and boy racers with a propensity for the Grand Tour Injection style of 'hot hatch'.

Also, Robert Devereaux, 2nd Earl of E., one of the more notable suitors (or favourites) of Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen.


[> [> Hey! -- Kitkat, 10:51:14 05/08/03 Thu

As an 'Essex girl' born and bred I feel I must make an obligatory objection...I've lived in Essex for 21 years and I've never seen anyone wearing white stillettos... of course I avoid both Romford and Basildon so I might have missed out.

Can't argue with you on the boy racers, you should hear what my brother is planning to do with his newly purchased second hand Fiesta.

[> That was hilarious!! ... did you fax 500 copies to their Head Office?) -- WickedBuffy, 10:13:03 05/08/03 Thu

WARNING--rant! rant! rant! treat accordingly--(spoilers for "Home") -- fleur-de-lis, 08:46:25 05/08/03 Thu

OK--we're all on board this ship because we're all obsessed to varying degress with BTVS and ATs--naturally, we all have characters we love/like/dislike/can't stand.
So, here goes, and yes I know I'm letting myself for some cussing-out and infuriated/disagreeing comments.

Connor? high time the self-pitying brat was gone. Here's my humble opinion. I've tried VERY hard to like him and to excuse his actions--after all, he's never known love, and grew up in Holtz's hell dimension--but after he sunk his father to the bottom of the sea? Sure, he feels distrust of Angel, perfectly understandable. He has no reason to enthusiastically fall into Angel's arms. But after Angel has displayed consistently well-meaning, if awkward, attempts to win Connor's affection, saved him, stood by him, etc, then Connor needs to do some serious thinking--hey Connor, it's not all about you. Sinking Angel--refusing to listen to any protestions of innocence--THEN returning to nonchalantly deny any knowledge of Angel's whereabouts. Eating their food, sleeping under their roof. Ultimate betrayal and lie.

Angel kicks him out--did anyone disagree with that step? High time. But Connor still refuses to give anything thought except of how he feels. He grudgingly goes with AI's plans of resouling Angel, backs them up. Then he kidnaps a innocent girl and stands by while Evil Cordy slaughters her, despite Darla's plea. Finally? He falls right in with Jasmine's plans of a world where all bow to her shiny golden apple of peace--just no free will. He sees that she is a lie from the very start, but doesn't want to resist in any way. If that means hurting those who care about him, so be it. He betrays them once again, despite their efforts to make him stop and consider. Finally, last night, he brutally attacks a cop for falling for the very thing he, Connor, supported Jasmine in. Then he proceeds to strap himself and others with explosives and holds them hostage! Would he have actually killed them if Angel hadn't arrived? Who knows...

point is, Connor's never seemed to really care for anyone more than himself. Even for Cordy--his own self-interests were always present. He's jealous of Angel, of anyone who has what he wants--acceptance, love from others. His constant denouncements of his father's past murders are now totally unjustified. Angel had no soul when he killed them. Gunn, Fred, Wes--all have done wrong, but they made conscious choices and faced up to them. What excuse does Connor have? Sure, he had a rotten past, but that excuse wears thin rapidly. Time to grow up and stop thinking about me, me, me. You're not the center of the universe, Connor! was what I always wanted someone to tell him. Of all of AI, he's made the weakest mistakes. He has been the most impressionable, the least strong, the most easily led, and chooses to be blind to the consequences.

Angel's killing him was the best thing he could have done. What's so sad about it was that after Angel and the AI have done for Connor, he was ultimately too weak to finally grow up and start looking at the big picture--to be what Angel wanted him to be. A champion. He never grew a backbone and learned to think like an adult, not a self-pitying child. He was forgiven time and time again. I just ran out of sympathy for this character, while I was always able to understand, if not totally agree, with the others. They finally managed to come to terms with whatever horrible things they've said, done, or experienced.

OK--now begins the lived replies. Don't hate me too much. Just voicing an opinion.

[> Another opinion--(spoilers for "Home") -- Arethusa, 09:08:02 05/08/03 Thu

Imagine, Fleur, that you grow up with a madman who raises you to hate and kill. All around you is pain and death and ugliness-it is all you have ever known. The things that give us strength in life-love, support, ability to change and grow-are foreign to you. Instead, you've been trained to follow blindly, kill reflexively, hate without questioning. How would you behave?

ME's pretty unique in that we're not meant to admire and like all the characters. We learn about people through mistakes sometimes. What did Connor's troubles teach us about him, Angel, Cordy, and the others? How did vengance and love affect Holtz, Angel and Connor? What would we be willing to give up for love and acceptance? What lies can we live with, or not live with? How do we best show love for our children? A happy, healthy Connor wouldn't bring up any of these questions. It's not always about what we want-it's about what we need. :)

[> [> Re: Another opinion--(spoilers for "Home") -- Dariel, 09:46:42 05/08/03 Thu

Good points, Arethusa. And further to Fleur--a person raised without love is not capable of accepting love. They can't see it, can't feel it. (A hard thing to grasp if you haven't been there yourself.)

As Connor admits about Jasmine--he cannot feel her love. Jasmine's spell is incredibly powerful, but still it doesn't penetrate. Because he cannot feel love, Connor believes it doesn't exist.

Some people believe that redemption is possible for everyone. It's a nice thought, but not true. Angel made his deal because he knew that Connor was damaged beyond repair.

[> [> Re: Another opinion--(spoilers for "Home") -- I agree, Arethusa .... plus (spoilers for "Home"), 09:57:23 05/08/03 Thu

I totally understood all your points, too, fleur-de-lis. I see Connor from a different persepective. We all probably do, depending on our own backgrounds leading up to this very moment.

Like A said, he grew up in a place totally different from the one we know. And pretty horrific, since it's referred to as a Hell Dimension. Not just another culture cross the world, but a place that would probably horrify any human. (Sorry H., you too.) In additon to his environment, he was also taught to kill and hate - not a very balanced education. And those were his formidable years, the "wonder years".

Connor 's character was the focus of Angels in many ways - and let us see Angel develop in a way he hadn't yet. It wasn't a romance or a friendship, it was parenting. We saw mistakes being made, tough love, parent-child issues and all the stuff that happens right here in some form or another. (One form or another :koff::)

So we also saw the sacrifices a parent will give a child.

And we saw someone get a second chance. A "do-over". Something rare in our world. Angel made that possible for Connor. It wasn't based on anything Connor did or didn't do - it was based on a parents love for their child. Non-judgemental and unconditional. In some ways, Connor represented the very worst in a person - and he did struggle to understand, to accept, to feel. It was just too much for him to overcome. (When that happens here, it usually ends up in teen suicide.)

But Angel was able to step in and create a second chance to have what he never had. (What neither Connor or Angel had.)

And looked how he turned out in "that" kind of environment! Affectionate, intelligent, loving relationships with his whole family and more. (That gf he was joking about hiding from in Russia.)

It was just all in what he grew up around. It was a dimension made to nuture the shadow side, not the bright one. I think Connor actually did pretty well for as long as he did, considering everything he had to deal with in a year.

[> [> [> .. umm.. that was me directly above... the Voy musta ate my face. -- WickedBuffy, 10:07:49 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Another opinion - Me thinks that's more like a "victimization cop-out" than anything else.... -- Briar Rose, 17:09:04 05/08/03 Thu

Unlike what the psychotherapy crack pots and slick defense lawyers want us all to believe, not all (or even most) children raised in abuse and violence become unable to love.

I've known people who's growing years are humanly suitable to being called "Hell Dimensions" and they do not in any way keep making the same mistakes in the same way that this little ass hole Connor did and never would.

I agree with the rant above that started this string: Connor was a character that no matter how hard I wanted to like him, I couldn't. For someone who never gave an INCH to expect the world and used emotional abuse against the very people he claimed had emotionally abused and neglected him when all Angel, Cordelia and Lorne did from day one was to try and make his life happy and even when he came back and acted the ass they STILL tried to make his life happy, bought into all his guilt trips and practically broke their own backs to help him heal and grow, and he NEVER GOT IT!

I can't even begin to believe that someone would stand up for the little twit, because at the root of his rants his arguement was all WRONG in the first place: Angel did not "give him" to Holtz. Maybe the kid has so hard a head that Angel and Cordy and Lorne shoulda all gone Faith on him much earlier? Maybe with enough beating he'd have finally GOT that it wan't like they didn't try to keep him from Holtz and then tried to fix what Holtz had screwed up when he landed back in the Hyperion?

It's like the people who depended on good old Dr. Freaking Spock in the 70s. No one ever thought to ask if this talking head HAD any lids himself. He never had any, BTW> Nor do most of the new Dr. Spock types. Reasoning with a child that hasn't reached the age of reason is a wasted effort. There has to be a move to take charge or the child will be lost in a world of vaugeness. There has to be strong role modeling, ethical lessons, morality and discipline in the growing process along with love and fuzzy stuff.

Some kids only respond to time outs and not getting attention. Some it takes a quick swat on the butt. Like my Grandmother used to say, "There's a lot of FAT paddin' back there, 'cause Mother Nature made that place for a reason."

Look at the news any night of the week. The majority of these gang bangers and murderers and predators were not abused. If anything, they were CODDLED and indulged. They never learn to take responsibility for their actions. Let alone to learn respect for anyone but themselves. As we saw with Connor.... The more Angel coddled him, the worse he got.

While there is a very small contingent of abused and denied children that turn into murderous monsters, predators and gang bangers. They already know the difference between bad and good interactions. Th trust issues are the basic problem. Not enjoying handing out abuse.

How many abused children try again and again to make their abusive parents love them? How many are blaming themselves for the abuse and trying everything to turn themselves into "perfect" children to see if it will stop? Many, many, many more than that go the other way.

Connor didn't deserve the unconditional love Angel tried to give him once he had been given the second chance. Blood or not, Angel could have learned something from Gunn's book on child rearing: You act right, or you get out.

I will give one thumbs down to Angel's action though... Yet one more time, Angel chose to make a life altering decision for someone else without even bothering to ASK them if they wanted it. Angel's issues with typical human relationships is beginning to bug me as well. First it's leaving Buffy because HE decides he's hurting her. BS - she was hurting him because he couldn't have his cake and eat it. But it still hurt her just as much. This is such a passive aggressive trait and it makes me want to puke. It wan't just Buffy - Then it was Darla, then Cordy and now it's sending Connor to some alternate dimension where Angel hurts some more and never even seems to realize that it shouldn't be HIS choice where Connor goes.

As I said above, Connor didn't deserve any more chances, IMO. However, in a different way and with time, there was a possibility that Connor could have been turned around. It was NOT natural for a child with Connor's upbringing to keep up the crap he was doing and never GET IT! But as usual, Angel pulled the martyr and made a choice that wasn't his to make.

Sticking with what ME gave us though.... Connor is gone and I am excedingly glad!

[> [> [> [> ::tiptoeing delicately:: (vague spoiler Home) -- WickedBuffy, 20:44:26 05/08/03 Thu

Most everything you say is true - the points based on statistics, I mean. We differ on the subjective parts.

You admit there is a small percentage of abused children who do turn out to do horrible things. Within that point of view, isn't there a possiblity, then, that Connor was one of them?

Though I liked a lot of other characters much more than Connor, I felt like I did understand what he was going through. (As much as you can an imaginary tv character in a fantasy drama.)

It's very difficult for me to consider the character of Connor as the same as real human children. There are parallels - but it's not the same. Judging a television character and its role from a perspective that isn't the ME universe seems confusing and irresolvable.

Though we really differ in our views about childrens fates and tv characters fates, I do agree with your thumbs down on Angels action in general. It does bother me that it's happened more than once, too. Making life altering decision for someone else as he has might be getting shortchanging the character development. I'd like to see him learn other ways to solve those situations.

[> [> [> [> Re: Another opinion - Me thinks that's more like a "victimization cop-out" than anything else.... -- Dariel, 21:49:49 05/08/03 Thu

You seem to be missing the point here. No one said anything about liking Connor. The kid was a mess. No one said anything about "coddling" him either.

One of the reasons that it's possible to mold children is that adults are bigger, stronger--we can keep them from hurting themselves and others while they're working out their problems. This was not an option with Connor. Angel wasn't in a position to lock him in the basement and administer "tough love" for how ever many years it took. Connor had super powers, which made him exceedingly strong and dangerous. So, Angel had to choose--kill his own child, or give him the chance to start over.

BTW, I've never understood the kind of thinking embodied in your post. Which is, basically, that no matter what kind of horrific experience a child might go through, s/he should be able to come out of it. Overcome it. It's as if there were no such thing as psychological development or a human psyche at all. As if the mind were simply a tool, seperate from experience, rather than the repository of everything that happens to us.

If these folks you know who endured those "Hell Dimensions" are doing okay, it's because somebody, somewhere way back, gave them some love. Provided them with a little peace in the midst of chaos. Gave them that leg to stand on in their later struggles with themselves. A foundation. Children who don't get at least this much come out friggin crazy, psychotic, full of hate, what-have-you.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree, Dariel -- Rahael, 00:42:43 05/09/03 Fri

[> Re: WARNING--rant! rant! rant! treat accordingly--(spoilers for "Home") -- maddog, 10:25:27 05/08/03 Thu

I don't think you'll see too many. Connor wasn't overly popular because of his actions. Let me just say this, put yourself in Connor's shoes. From the moment he can remember his mind was poisoned by Holtz. How old do you think Connor was when he returned? 16...17? So for a decade or so he's been told that Angel abandoned him. That the life he now lives is because Angel gave him up to Holtz. So Holtz became his family. So when they both return Angel's the bad guy. Connor's been fed so many lies. And in some cases, much of the truth of who Angelus is...yet with no explaination as to who he's become. So the initial reaction makes sense....especially after they make it look like Holtz was killed by Angel. Yet not long after they're all back together he's all of a sudden drawn to Cordelia(as she is to him)...and he thinks he's found a semblance of happiness. Someone that truly cares for him. He'd like to believe Angel. But he won't give him that chance to prove it...not the way he lets Cordy in. So then he lives that lie until right before Jasmine is born. Cordy starts getting weird. The bond is breaking slightly. With Jasmine's birth a whole new lie begins...yet Connor sees it. He'd just rather believe that it could all end. All the fighting...all the would all be over. He even goes as far as to make up with his father. But he knows it's not true...he so wanted that to be the end. But Angel and co. decide that world peace isn't worth the loss of choice...the loss of being your own person. And in the end Connor himself must be the one to put Jasmine down. For this he blames his the fighting must go his pain must continue. And that's where he was right before Angel killed him. reason to reason to believe in a future.

Connor didn't love because he was conditioned to hate. He even turned on a poor comatose Cordelia in the end because she couldn't comfort him in her current state. To him, that's one more loved one abandoning him. I'd like to hate Connor too. He's done many things to piss me off over the past year and a half. But I couldn't. Not after what he went through. That speech at the church nailed it for me. I could no longer go on being angry because I could see for the first where he was coming from...why he was still so angry. Connor's in a better place now. Let's just hope W&H doesn't mess that up next season.

[> [> Re: More than he deserved? -(spoilers for "Home") -- Angelina, 12:50:45 05/08/03 Thu

I can agree with everyone saying Connor was "damaged" and therefore "unredeemable", but I think he got off easy in the end. He did not have to atone or pay for the cold-blooded murder of that innocent girl. Thanks to Angel, he got a second chance. That reflects on the soul of Angel - on his goodness. Let's hope he didn't have to sell that soul to give Connor another life.

[> [> [> I know...(spoilers for Home) -- fleur-de-lis, 14:23:06 05/08/03 Thu

Good point--didn't think of that in my earlier post. While everyone else has paid and/or atoned for their misdeeds one way or another, Connor got off absolutely scot-free for all he's done. Angel was his "Get out of jail free" card---

Yeah, I'm left unsatisfied here. Bring on Season 5!

[> [> [> [> I guess it might be in your definition of "paid"? (spoilers Home) -- WickedBuffy, 14:58:19 05/08/03 Thu

I don't think anything ever even's out anything else perfectly or equally in everyone's eyes.

At the end, there, Connor was in inner hell, completely tormented and confused and every other negative, horrid feeling you can possible have - all at once. It didn't feel "scot-free" to me.

He wasn't happily blissed out and ignoring what had happened. The complete opposite. Connor didn't even get to feel the incredible HappyShiny feelings everyone around him had. He was paying for what he did - if there ever is a way to "pay". Feelings we take for granted, he could see around him going on, but couldn't touch.

Connor grew up in a dimension filled ith physical pain, we saw him get pretty battered in the fights he was in - but he was more familiar with how to handle that kind of pain. Emotional pain, though, cut cut him deeper than a dagger.

No excuses, just reasons. he did do some bad things, no argument there. Just disagreeing about the "payback" part. And I've noticed that there is no one way to atone or "payback" for something - there are many ways. It's even different for each person, depending on culture, environment, temperment, influences and a myriad of other issues.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I guess it might be in your definition of "paid"? (spoilers Home) -- rowena, 15:01:47 05/08/03 Thu

Just tossing this out: Since Connor grew up in a hell dimension, could Connor's payback have been "prepaid"?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Good point, rowena! (funny, too!) -- WickedBuffy, 15:08:12 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Good point, rowena! -- rowena, 16:31:09 05/08/03 Thu

Thanks! Knew I could get a grin.

What's the deal with the deal?-Spoilers for "Home" -- Cecilia, 09:12:31 05/08/03 Thu

Ok, so we know Wolfram and Hart are supposed to be evil. And here I am thinking about the FE's "whole good and evil, balancing the scales" speech, Holland's elevator speech where he shows Angel that evil cannot ever be truly wiped out, it is in everyone, along with good. So know I'm wondering, what exactly was Wolfram and Hart's role in the world? Did they truly make the offer as a reward for ending world peace? Or, did the AI teams actions demonstrate that while good is, well, good, there are limits to what is acceptable. (ie, end justifying the means, lack of freedom unacceptable, etc), therefore W&H (or at least the Senior Partners) decided that this group of people would be good "guardians" of the balance?

[> it's the perfect strategy for each side : "...keep your friends close but your enemies closer." -- Michael C., 16:28:39 05/08/03 Thu

"We Three" (last night's Angel, but no spoilers) -- Katrina, 09:48:15 05/08/03 Thu

In the "reading too much into it" department:

I'll have to watch the episode again to doublecheck the details, but when they're in front of the hotel, right before Angel shows up, Gunn, Fred and Wes are standing together. I believe Fred's in the middle, and I believe it's Wes who says the phrase "We three."
"We Three" is a song about a love triangle, by Patti Smith,
and here are the lyrics:

"We Three"
You say you want me.
I want another.
Say you dream of me.
Dream of your brother.
Oh, the stars shine so suspiciously
for we three.

You said when you were with me that nothing made you high.
We drank all night together and you began to cry so recklessly.
Baby, please, don't take my hope away from me.

You say you want me.
I want another, baby.
You say you wish for me.
Wish for your brother.
Oh, the dice roll so deceptively
for we three.

It was just another Saturday
and ev'rything was in the key of A.
And I lit a cigarette for your brother.
And he turned and heard me say so desp'rately,
'Baby, please, don't take my hope away from me.'

You say you want me.
I want another.
You say you pray for me.
Pray for your brother.
Oh, the way that I see him is the way I see myself.
So please stand back now and let time tell you.
Oh, can't you see that time is the key that will unlock the destiny
of we three?

Every night on sep'rate stars, before we go to sleep, we pray so breathlessly.
Baby, please, don't take my hope away from me.

If I'd plotted S7 (Detailed spoilers to "Lies"/"Home", all three major casting spoilers for 7:18-22) -- KdS, 10:02:41 05/08/03 Thu

I alluded in my musings on last week's ep to my disgruntlement with the amount of angst and padding in the mid-part of this season, and my belief that some of the time-wasting new characters could have been replaced perfectly acceptably by previous characters. After LMPTM, I can go into it with no spoiler problems. Broadly, I think that Kennedy is unnecessary as proof that Willow a) is still gay, and b) can move on, because if Faith had been brought over earlier (with a little adjustment of the relative broadcast dates of BtVS/AtS) I still think Wilith (thanks, Masq) could have worked. (I'm aware some people disagree, but it's a matter of personal taste and interpretation, and it would have meant less time being spent on an underwhelming new character. Come on, even if you like Kennedy, would you really miss her?) Wood's main role is as Spike's past coming back to bite him (even if Buffy has a 'shippy interest in him, I don't see him as having much interest in her beyond as an ally against evil, and even if he does, it's ooky and Oedipal). Both this role as an antagonist for Spike, and Caleb's role, could have been replaced with, IMHO, more emotional effect by flipping Giles, as some people have suggested was the original plan. To be honest, the second half of this season has just got on my tits with its Cold!Buffy-burning-out stuff, which got old after practically the whole of S5 and S6. As the potentials were mainly a device to produce this, their numbers and importance could be significantly reduced if the interesting Buffy vs the FE stuff were made the main focus of the second half of the season, instead of just the last three eps.

7:10-11: Bring on the Night/Showtime broadly as in "real" S7. Giles arrives with a much reduced number of Potentials (not added to as story continues except Amanda). Buffy/Turok/Spike plot plays out as before. At end Fred calls from LA. Willow departs to resoul Angel and collect Faith.

7:12: Potential Dawn/Amanda plot broadly as actual ep except Giles casts potential locator spell. Willow and Faith on road from LA to Sunnydale, discussing evil and gradually sensing a certain connection. Giles becomes increasingly disturbed by the continued Buffy/Spike closeness.

7:13: The Killers Inside Us. Giles is now convinced that Spike is a danger and a distraction to Buffy. He launches a hallucinatory ritual which he tells Buffy and Spike is designed to determine and neutralise Spike's trigger. Actually, under cover of it, he is manipulating Spike's chip in an attempt to kill him. Spike's oedipal issues come out, as in LMPTM. Meanwhile, staying the night in a motel before the final stretch between LA and Sunnydale, Willow and Faith find themselves feeling an urge to more than emotional closeness. Willow turns into Warren as in TKIM, with Faith playing the Kennedy role. They head into Sunnydale looking for magical help, find Amy, and events proceed as in original. Buffy is increasingly concerned by the physical toll the ritual is taking on Spike, she pleads with Giles to stop it, becomes increasingly suspicious of him and the truth comes out. Buffy and Giles have a savage argument, in which he gives in to his anger, depression, and reverse-Electra complex, and is overcome by the power of the First. A recovered Willow arrives just in time to save Buffy and try to bind Giles, but he escapes. Spike begs Buffy to use her remaining government contacts and have the chip removed. The final scene sees Giles walking into a building full of Bringers, who defer to him as their new Master.

7:14: Storyteller, broadly as the original. The remnants of the Initiative have been contacted, and Spike dechipped, off-screen between this and the previous ep.

7:15: As Above, So Below. Willow discovers that the Seal of Danzalthar can be reactivated, but as a gateway not to the Turok-Hahn home dimension, but to the darkest portion of the human collective unconscious, where the First lurks. From now until the end, we have an eight-part story divided into two strands. The "Above" strand is old-skool BtVS, but with a grittier and more desperate edge, as the battle for the physical world takes place. On the side of Good, the Scoobies' Physical team: Faith and potentials (violence), Dawn, Anya and Andrew (research and magic), Xander (roadie, moral support). On the side of Evil, the FE, Darth Cunabula[*], Bringers, and any Monsters of the Week required. The "Below" strand features Buffy, Willow and Spike versus the FE and various of its constructs in a Restless-cum-Promethea-cum-The Prisoner-cum-Twin Peaks ATPO-orgasm netherworld. Willow acts as liaison between the two teams by entering Faith's dreams (during which we have further demonstration of non-homophobia). Preferably each episode will feature an exoteric Sunnydale and esoteric netherworld version of the same basic plot. I wouldn't dare to come up with a detailed breakdown of how it might all turn out, but possible ideas for the next couple would include:

7:16: Eat My Dust. Buffy, Willow and Spike encounter the Shadowmen in a rerun of the Slayer-origin story. Meanwhile in Sunnydale, Faith is distracted from Dark!Giles's first serious attempt on the potentials by the apparition of her own old evil mentor.

7:17: The Three Stigmata of Willow Rosenberg. (Black hair, black eyes, veins). The FE and Giles attempt to take control of one of Willow's and Faith's dream meetings. Who is real, is anyone, and define real? A BtVS fan poll at the end of the series sees this ep simultaneously voted the best and worst ever by different factions ;-)

If Angel is going to turn up in the last couple of eps, he can reinforce the "Below" team, prevailing on W&H to open up a gateway into the netherworld through the White Room. I also really like the idea of an ep in this run titled Farther Down and Further In.

[*] Darth Cunabula - really geeky in-joke. If one adds the prefix "in" to the names of the Sith Lords in Star Wars, one sometimes gets interesting results (Sidious, Vader). "Incunabula" is the technical term for very early printed books (usually pre-1500), so if you want a name for a librarian on the Dark Side...

[> Plotted S7 -- Liz, 14:28:39 05/08/03 Thu

I'm satisfied with Season 7, thank you very much.

"Home" is like "Restless" (spoilers Home) -- lunasea, 11:30:04 05/08/03 Thu

Home is my favorite word in the English language. I just like how it makes my mouth feel when I say it. It makes my heart sing. My mother is mentally ill and growing up, I lived in a house, but it never felt like a home. We lived in the same house from age 8-19. My husband has this amazing family, much like the one shown at the end of the episode. They moved around a lot because of his father's career. Everywhere they went, they had two homes. They had each other and they had the city that felt like home to them, Cape May, NJ.

The first place that ever felt like home to me was Baltimore, Maryland where I went to college. When I would see the skyline as I returned from seeing my family, my heart would start to sing. My husband and I still get that feeling when we return to his college, where we first met. Going back to Cape May, where his parents now live permanently, makes his heart sing.

Now we both have an amazing home. Due to his career, we have to move around a lot (like father, like son). The home isn't a physical location. It is each other and our two daughters. Connor asked the man if he had a home. The man took out a picture of his wife and daughter. They were his home.

Connor was an amazing part of this episode, but the title doesn't just refer to one part of an episode. "Home" is the "Restless" for AtS that sets it in a different direction, a more obvious one than the change BtVS went through. What made me originally think about this was in both season fours, the big bad is defeated in episode 21 and episode 22 is something that results from this. "Restless" deals with the particular talent of each Scooby and "Home" deals with the particular talent of each member of the Fang Gang.

"Restless" is an episode that I try not to think about, but I keep coming back to. For me the key is that the First Slayer isn't some external spirit seeking revenge on the Scoobies. It is Buffy herself. It is this lack of understanding of this Spirit, and therefore Buffy, that leads to the conflict between Buffy and the Scoobies that comes to climax in "Empty Places."

In "Restless" Buffy is both looking for and trying to kill her family. It is the perfect metaphor for that period of our lives. There is that part of us that just wants to stay with our family. There is another part that wants to completely cut ourselves off from them. It doesn't want to need what our family offers us. It wants to isolate ourselves for our own good. It is a tough balance to find. We need to be self-sufficient realized individuals, but we also want to be part of a family. We want a place to come home to.

(I am going to refrain from going too much into "Restless." I have this tendency to drown in it. If anyone wants to discuss, let me know. I am just trying to show how both season four finales are similar.)

In "Home" we have a similar situation. The Fang Gang are each coming into their own. In order to self-actualize, they need to get away from each other a bit. Wesley has grown tremendously after being kicked out last season. Fred is back to writing physics papers. Gwen showed how much Gunn is more than just muscle. They still want to be a family though.

The first choice facing each person is "do I go to check out the offer?" If Angel, as Dad, had said from the beginning "We're going" they all would have gone en masse. Instead they each had to make this decision to break away from Angel Investigations on their own. They are all still each tentative about it. They don't want to admit that they want to tend to their own individual needs/desires. They are dutiful servants of good and therefore Angel Investigations.

To show the kids leaving home, they start with Fred all dressed up sneaking out of the house. She even doesn't put on her shoes, so she doesn't make noise as she leaves. How many out there have snuck out like that to do something Dad doesn't approve of? Fred was the best choice to show this. Fred is the kid sister, so her leaving home is the biggest deal.

Gunn would have been obvious. He has headed his own crew and had another family before AI. He already stated that he wanted to go, but was pretending to cave to goodness, but really it was family pressure. He did want AI to mean that much to him, but how they treated him left him with a desire for something more. Gunn wanting to explore other options is not a surprise. He could go, check it out and if it was bogus, he wouldn't hurt his family's feelings. When he wasn't out there when Fred got outside, it was a surprise.

Instead she found Wesley. Wesley leaving wasn't such a surprise either. He is too strong to just be in Angel's shadow any more. He had been forced to be on his own before. He picked a side, but those lines are awfully blurry. As we later find out, Wesley went with a mission. The bonding with the two kids breaking away from Dad and doing something that could be dangerous without sexual tension was great.

Enter in Gunn and all the kids were there. Lorne is more like the jovial uncle. So all three kids show their hesitation, but they encourage each other and find the courage to at least explore the options. Each goes in with different expectations and fears.

The kids are breaking away. What about Dad? Is Dad going to be left alone? Angel just can't let his kids walk into a trap. He lurks in the shadow (as he does so well) and waits for them to make up their mind. After they do, he reveals himself. Would he have gone without them? Doubtful.

The kids and Dad enter into the grown-up world, where people have jobs. The show has tried to deal with this in various episodes, but nothing was like when Charlie shows up in the Chocolate Factory. Even with charging people and Cordy trying to grow the business, it was still an independent thing. They weren't part of corporate America. Now they are going to see this and even consider whether they want to be a part of it. Angel Investigations was college. It was a few years where the team got to avoid much of the realities of life and learn about stuff (including life). Time for graduation.

Scary stuff. Walking into the belly of the beast. They are presented with their next important choice, "Will they stay together?" Dad says there is strength in numbers. He came to protect his kids, not to check out the offer. As he sees the group decide to separate, a decision he can't override, he watches his family possibly disintegrate.

The team is offered weapons in order to make them feel more secure. Fred takes a nice one. Little sis is the least able to protect herself physically, but shows that she is aware there is danger. Angel's only hope is that he raised his kids well enough that they won't fall to temptation. He also has to hope that they will be physically safe and be able to return to him. It is a scary time for any parent.

Fred is the one with the weapon, but Gunn is the one that actually fears for his life at one point. Fred has found others like her. That is one thing she didn't have with AI. Some root for Wesley and Fred because they are both brains. Fred has been forced to be a Wesley-like brain. She is more a science brain who feels more at home in a lab than a library. I'm rooting for Fred and Holden (or whatever his new name is). They had great chemistry and I like the actor's smile. Fred has found a place she really feels at home. She would have been happy just to work there.

Wesley is there with a mission in mind. He is as suspicious as Angel is and proves his suspicions by asking for a stolen text. He is willing to put himself in danger to save Lilah. He can't, but as with any gift, it is the thought that counts. It was one of the beautiful moments of the show. In many ways, loving Lilah did save her. She might have to spend time in hell, but we don't know if she is being tormented (though she does ask for water). When Lilah says things like "My Wesley" you can hear how much he has changed her. I wonder if Wesley would accept on the condition that Lilah is freed.

Dad is not going to let himself be lured by the dark side. He doesn't even want to experience the sun that Lilah offers him. Every time Angel makes a great stride in becoming more human, something happens on the show to symbolize this. Angel reaches the depths of despair and finds his heart. Connor results from this. He had a supposedly human child, something only humans can do. Angel has some pretty important words about choice, especially after saying that he doesn't have a choice for some of his actions. Now he can't go out in the sun, but he can experience it through the special windows. These windows cover the entire building. In the building, Angel is safe.

To get through to Angel, Lilah tries to push his buttons. First obvious button, help the helpless. Angel is content to do what limited he can with his own resources. He is the Dad of AI, but when it comes to his relationship with the world, he is still the rebellious teen who has to do everything on his own terms. Next button, Buffy. Evil using Buffy to get to Angel. Hasn't that been done before? Didn't work then either. Angel has faith in Buffy. "Buffy can handle herself," undercut wonderfully with Lilah's response. It also stated what button they were trying to push. Is Angel willing to sellout for love? It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Lilah offered to have the curse fixed, but then when Angel accepts and takes everything at the end, that would have complicated things.

Lilah then tries his current situation/failure, finding Cordy and Connor. The situation isn't dire enough for Angel to resort to desperate measures, UNTIL he sees just how desperate things are. Angel went to Insect dimension and the priest told him what he was fighting for. It is Angel's one button (one he no longer has, since he no longer has Connor). Lilah offers him protecting his world. Insect priest says, that isn't why he is fighting. Lilah offers him Buffy (and Cordy). Insect guy says, it's not for the girl, she is already gone. Lilah shows him what Connor is doing. Insect guy says it is for the boy.

Angel's biological family. All Angel wants is to make a home for Connor. Without love, it is just a house. As insect priest tells him, Connor will never love him. Connor is drowning and can't get through the pain to actually be able to respond to love. Jasmine takes his pain and he is left with NOTHING. Angel can't give Connor a home with him. So he gives him one the only way Connor can have one.

There isn't a lot to say about Gunn. He was afraid that they didn't see him like Gwen did. When they didn't, he relaxed more. Then he ends up in the White Room and is the only kid who actually got scared. We will have to see what he was shown. It was interesting that he got such clarity from his experience. He is the first one to say that he is accepting. Wesley still looks ambivalent. Fred really wants to. Dad makes the executive decision to accept. Lorne was pretty much just comic relief.

This ending is like Buffy both looking for and killing her family. Each person will head their own division based on their own talents. They are independent in that respect. They are all still technically under Angel, as head of WR&H, LA division, now. The family is together, but as we saw with the decline in sexual tension, they are each becoming their own people.

Another interesting thing is this contrasts with what Jasmine was offering. Jasmine offered supposedly paradise. It was a uniform paradise that didn't take differences into account. WR&H gave them each what they consider paradise. It was tailored to their individuality, from what they were offered to individual tours given by someone they could relate to. From this they don't need their evolution kicked up a few ticks. They will do it themselves.

Home. Each member found a new home, one where Angel is even safe from the sun, but at the same time maintained ties (looser ones) to each other. Dad is still in charge, but not so directly and each kid has their own power now. We got to see the kids as 17 in "Spin the Bottle."It showed us how far they have really come. Now we got to see the kids really leave home.

It was an episode full of beautiful moments.

[> Beautiful, lunasea---great comments, almost made me cry *sniff* -- fluer-de-lis, 12:11:10 05/08/03 Thu

Excuse the Rambling about Angel S4 *spoilers* -- Corwin of Amber, 12:50:38 05/08/03 Thu

Well, on my daily walk today, I got to thinking about the meaning of S4 Angel, more specifically the last few episodes where Jasmine came on the scene. Something bothered me about the idea of world peace and happiness, sans free will that I couldn't figure out until today.
We *could* do the same thing right now. If we were willing to spike the worlds water supply, with some sort of psychoactive drug. For the sake of this experiment, let's call it Yellow. Yellow makes one have feelings of deep contentment and a connection to everyone else. It cures all emotional/psychological problems as long as you take it. It's incredibly addictive (like this board) but that isn't a problem because everyone gets a hit when they take a glass of water. So what would the effects of Yellow be?
I think it would be a disaster. The end of history. Nothing more would be accomplished, because no one would need or want anything. No art, no music, no literature - these are all the results of people working out conflicts within themselves. Medicine wouldn't advance, because you wouldn't know or care if you were sick. People would happily die of cancer. There would be no progression at all - because there would be no conflict, and no war. Despite the human cost, war has been a major factor in human history and progress. The first time one hominid clubbed another over a carcass was a world changing event. Wars have encouraged the growth of technology and science - metalurgy, transportation, language, medicine, electronics, physics - you name it, it's been improved by the encouragement given by human conflict. Once you've removed that desire to strive for something, to improve, you've got nothing.
The answer to Lilah's riff about the Free Will gang's ending world peace is that world peace is for the end of time, not the beginning, when humanity doesn't have needs or desires naturally.

[> Re: Excuse the Rambling about Angel S4 *spoilers* -- Dandy, 13:04:09 05/08/03 Thu

Joss is an atheist. Jasmin's world is the garden of eden. JW rejects this in favor of existentialism, the individual's struggle with life everyday.
The beginning of the world that JW postulates is all demon and evil. Man evolved out of this. Evil is always present in humanity but so is goodness. There is no fall from grace.

[> why yellow ? -- lakrids, 13:55:01 05/08/03 Thu

Soma is so much better. Lets make a brave new world togethere

[> Not to mention... -- RichardX1, 15:24:05 05/08/03 Thu

I'm betting that everyone would be too blissed out to remember to do stuff like produce food or shelter (or possibly even bathe) without someone remaining undrugged to tell them. Whomever remains unaltered would be able to impose his/her will upon the rest of humanity.

So who can be the world's dictator without abusing his/her absolute power over society?

BBC viewers just saw "Seeing Red" (no spoilers) -- Robert, 13:49:18 05/08/03 Thu

You can read the reactions of their reviewers here.

When You're Not Who You Wever and Don't Remember What You've Done (Spoilers for Home) -- Buffyboy, 16:04:30 05/08/03 Thu

I've always had problems with the idea that a particular individual continues to exist as that same particular individual even though he or she has no memory whatsoever of his or her prior life and experiences. Perhaps in the case of Connor, Angel's memory provides whatever continuity there might still be between the new Connor and the old. Still I'm reluctant to call the new Connor and the old Connor the *same* person but I can live with this development--at least for now.

What troubles me/interests me much more is the loss of memory on the part of Fred and I would assume the rest of Team Angel--excepting Angel of course. If Team Angel now has no memory of Connor how do they understand what they've been through for the last two years? Connor has been a very significant presence in their lives and a good part of the narrative of their lives is simply unintelligible with Connor's actions-unintelligible that is without a *major* rewrite of their memories. Let's ask a few question and watch 'em squirm for answers.

A question for Fred: "How did Darla die?" Given what we know as of the end of S4, how could she answer this question to even her own satisfaction?

Fred: It was a very rainy night and she ...ah ... must have slipped on the wet street and I...I guess she fell on the stake she was carrying...ah... for some reason that I don't remember. Oh, maybe she was carrying it for protection; after all, mace is so passe here in LA.

Let's ask Wesley a question: "What brought about your temporary estrangement from Team Angel?" How could Wesley give any kind of an answer to this question with no memory of Connor?

Wesley: Well, you see I really wanted to have a fling with that hot lawyer Lilah and I knew the only way to do so was to be completely estranged from Angel Investigations so I very cleverly decided to ...ah ... stop hanging around then so much? It was my choice you know... I think.

Finally, though obviously not a member of Team Angel let's ask Holtz a question: "Why do you go through the tear in the fabric of the universe to enter the dimension of Quortoth?" Again, what kind of an answer could Holtz come up with if he has no memory of Connor?

Holtz: I seek vengeance, not justice. For vengeance is a living thing and I entered Quortoth with the full realization that it was the worst of hell dimensions. I knew for certain that if I entered this hell dimension Angelus would soon follow me. Why? I just knew it... I mean Angelus is evil and so is the hell dimension. They're a natural match. After all evil always seeks out other evil...doesn't it?

The point here isn't to come up with more plausible answers to these questions than my feeble attempts at humor, but to point out that the story of Angel Investigation for the last two years without the presence of Connor simply makes no sense at all. Adding memories a la Dawn is one thing and certainly does transform the narrative and the identities of the characters involved (Buffy suddenly becomes an older sister rather than an only child, etc.), but subtracting a significant character and the memory of this character from other characters is much more perilous. It tends to unravel the narrative and reduce many, if not most the characters, their actions and their motivations to little more than empty, disconnected, Absurdist Theater.

Finally, I'm not saying there's no way out of this difficulty for ME. Assuming there is a season five, the memories of the members of Team Angel could return or an extremely elaborate and complex rewriting of the memories of Team Angel could be attempted that would try to make sense of many if not most of their actions over the last two years. The second alternative seems to me to be extremely dificult one. For a series like AtS as well as BtVS, the past is a constant part of the present. This is one of the things that marks Me creations so much above the usual TV junk. And if the past two years are completely rewritten in the memories of most the key characters, how could anyone make good sense of their new (season five) actions? And if this rewrite were really consistently pushed through would not the character of Fred, Wesley, etc. approach becoming different characters? What would Wesley be without having abducted Connor? A very different person I suspect. Ultimately, I believe that the reality of Connor's existence in the life of Angel Investigations would necessarily have to creep back into their lives, whether they become consciously aware of Connor's earlier presence or perhaps their actions might begin to unconsciously express that same earlier presence. However they decide to proceed I think me has its work cut out for it, assuming of course season five does in fact come to pass.

[> Re: When You're Not Who You Were and Don't Remember What You've Done (Corection of Title Typo) -- Buffyboy, 16:06:51 05/08/03 Thu

[> What I've been wondering here is if... (***Spoilers*** for Home) -- OnM, 17:01:03 05/08/03 Thu

... this is what would have happened if Wesley had succeeded in kidnapping Conner and disappearing? If he had tried to keep Conner and raise him himself, it would have been easier for Angel to locate him again.

On the other hand, if Wesley had left Conner with some family somewhere, (like the one we saw), and then did a little magic of some sort to wipe his own memory clean... well, you get the general idea.

Posters with a long memory may recall that I suggested right after it happened that Wesley was right in hatching the kidnap plot. Perhaps this is a way of depicting that 'alternate universe' with a twist dictated by events?

BTW, your argument strikes me as very valid. It really isn't the same basic technique whereby Dawn appeared and memories were altered to allow her inclusion. Taking someone out of the picture is far more difficult, maybe impossible.

Good post!

[> Oh, what a tangled web... (spoilers for Home) -- CW, 17:18:53 05/08/03 Thu

I think that virtually the only way out of this mess is to walk away. Either it will be the last episode ever in which case everyone walks away without further explaination, or we start over next season with the events of the last two years being meaningless. Wesley could have stolen Connor as OnM says, but then you ought to explain how he has come to be an adult in this dimension. Hate to say it, but this seems to me more a farewell episode rather than a 'see ya' next fall.' They say in show business always leave 'em wanting more.

Hope I'm wrong.

[> Where is Connor? What is he? -- mamcu, 17:35:05 05/08/03 Thu

It seemed to me that the deal Angel made with W&H was a lot more complicated than what happened with Dawn and the Summers family. All that happened with the creation of Dawn was the creation of false memories for her and the family--nothing else changed. And we could argue that something like that has happened with Fred when she says, "Connor who?"

But it seemed to me that what happened with Connor was that he really moved into an alternate path, that he literally, really became the Connor he could have been if he had been born into a different reality. He really has grown up in that family; his memories aren't fake. It's a different part of reality.

And perhaps Wesley and Gunn too, the whole group, are now in this difference world--that's the deal Angel made for all of them.

I'm sure down there in those earlier threads, some one has questioned what Angel did with the knife. Is it possible that he destroyed the Connor and that branch of reality? It seemed to me that when the Free Will Gang was running from Jasmine, and Angel stopped to beat Connor up, that he was seeing that the pain in the Connor of that reality had twisted him into something hopeless evil, and that Connor couldn't stay on.

But the deal with W&H moved him into the place where he could see another possible Connor, and now they are all in that reality.

[> [> But "where" is Cordelia? -- Katrina, 18:12:36 05/08/03 Thu

Lots of mind-boggling ideas in everyone's posts above! I've been puzzling over the unresolved perception-vs.-reality problem in Connor's new life: is it the memory of him that's been erased, or has reality actually been changed? What pushes me into the former is that, if reality had actually been changed to remove Connor, why is Cordelia still in a coma? Without Connor, there'd have been no Jasmine, right? If Connor were removed and the past retroactively changed, why wasn't Cordelia standing with them in the lobby? Of course, there's bound to be a narrative-cum-metaphysical way out of this box. I may be being too literal about reality.

[> [> [> Re: But "where" is Cordelia? -- mamcu, 18:18:00 05/08/03 Thu

Well, in MY theory, lunatic though it may be, the past is not changed. There are many realities, perhaps branching off from each other at each decision point (I'm not talking "The Wish" here, but "The Garden of Forking Paths"). So changing Connor doesn't necessarily change the past. In fact everything could be the same or different, except for that one thing...but I'll let others explain their versions of this.

[> [> [> [> Then I'm a lunatic, too. (spoilers Home) -- WickedBuffy ::jumpin' in the bin with mamcu::, 20:13:28 05/08/03 Thu

I agree.
There are hundreds of paths that can reach the same destination. If Connor didn't play the part in what happened in the past two years, then a thousand other, small events could have shaped what we see now. It's not so difficult.

Just read this board for a couple days and you can find 30 different speculations that could have possibly caused one outcome. And they all make some kind of sense.

The following isn't from your post, mamcu, it's just an added thought of mine about a related hot topic:

I don't understand what the "lie" is that everyone talks about. Truth flows. There's a truth that is based on the past, and there's one that's based on the present. One is not more of a truth than the other.

Or, if your glass is half-empty - both are as big a lie as the other. ;>

Random Gunn-thoughts, plus "No place like Home" (spoilers) -- Katrina, 16:53:10 05/08/03 Thu

BTW, thanks, neaux, for the post on Gunn, which I didn't have time to respond to until it was archived. Quite the posting frenzy going on here! You said something about being so "stupid" you didn't see the symbolism about the black panther until after the episode. I was so stupid that I didn't see it until I read your message. Then I slapped my forehead and went "D'oh!" What a great symbol/spirit guide/totem animal/oracle/whatever for a black man who needs to reclaim his power and his ability to lead.

My first thought during the episode was that maybe Gunn's now going to be the one in touch with the Powers...or now that the whole PTB thing has been murkied up, with whatever sort of mystical forces are out there and willing to help out the good fight. Personally, I'd love to see him reconcile his early days as the leader of the pack with his relationships within the AI "crew." (Like Fred, I'm too much of a white girl to get away with using the street lingo).

Then I thought: so why did he relinquish his leadership, anyway? It made sense enough to throw in with AI, given that they were out fighting the demons and had the conduit to the PTBs and all that. But how did he end up going from the ultimate leader to thinking of himself as just the "muscle"? Is it because he was surrounded by two super-geniuses, a vampire, a demon, and a mystical whatzit with visions, thus making him the most Zeppo-like of the group? Or was it a relief to let someone else be the boss and make the decisions that might get people killed? He was right on the cusp of leaving AI and going back with his old group because some of his people had been killed. Then Cordelia got kidnapped into Pylea, and he ended up going along. While there, he was clearly uncomfortable with the idea of soldiers being sent to their deaths, which Wesley felt he had to do. A bit of association on Gunn's part with the people he helped train, who looked up to him and followed his leadership, but whom he couldn't ultimately protect?

After they got back to L.A., he was firmly established as a member of AI, never really seeming tempted to go back. In the episode where he had to prove his loyalties, during the fracas at Caritas with his old crew, he stuck with Angel, despite some earlier misgivings, and never seemed to look back. Only fairly recently has he begun to chafe. We know that Gunn was a leader since he was a kid, which had to have put him under a lot of pressure. So I think it's at least possible that he was willing to step back for awhile and not be the one in charge. He got to relax a little, and "get a life" in the form of a serious girlfriend, which it seems like he'd never had the time for before. He didn't have to be "all about the mission," so to speak. But clearly, if he's experienced the downside of being a leader, he's also not cut out to be a follower either.

At any rate: by the end of the episode, Gunn has embraced his inner strength, Fred has embraced her inner geek, and Wesley his inner nice guy. In the sides of their characters that come out at W&H, Fred's got the brain. Wesley has a heart. Gunn has "the noive." Perhaps Cordelia is going to wake up terribly confused, with a vague deja vu about the past that's been changed, and tell them that she had a dream, "And you were there. And you!"

But symbolic equations always break down somewhere. Would Lorne, with his showmanship, be the Wizard? And I don't know who on earth Angel would be...the Good Vampire of the North?

[> same wavelength! -- neaux, 17:15:27 05/08/03 Thu

Thanks Kat!

I'm glad someone read my post before it was eaten.. but what is funny was that I was going to write another post about the Wizard of Oz Brain/heart/Courage similarities but you beat me to it!! (put'm up put'm up!)

Great post!!

[> [> Thanks for explaining that you two. I was totally confused about Gunn -- Vash the Stampede, 17:24:47 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> In Tara-speak.... -- Briar Rose, 17:37:15 05/08/03 Thu

Gunn saw his insect reflection.*S*

It was one of the most brilliant scenes that I've seen Greenwalt pull off in AtS. It was so much more mystically connected than most of the Angel storylines and much more Buffy-ish in feel.

[> [> [> [> Did someone mention Restless? -- mamcu, 17:39:02 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> That Would Be Tim Minear, friend -- AngelVSAngelus, 19:44:08 05/08/03 Thu

Who will be deeply, DEEEEEEPLY missed by this fan.
Damnit, Greenwalt AND Minear gone?! What will I DOOOOOOOO?!?!?! *shakes fists at the sky*

[> Re: Random Gunn-thoughts, plus "No place like Home" (spoilers) -- M., 22:04:30 05/08/03 Thu

But symbolic equations always break down somewhere. Would Lorne, with his showmanship, be the Wizard? And I don't know who on earth Angel would be...the Good Vampire of the North?

No I think Angel would be Dorothy. But instead of clicking his heels and going home, he sent Conner home. I don't know about Lorne - toto maybe?

[> Symbolic nature of the leopard (Panthera pardus)....spoilers for "Home" -- Rufus, 01:43:17 05/09/03 Fri

Had to drag out my symbols dictionary again for this episode...Gunn faces a panther (leopard) and sees himself but then he seems to pause and something in his demeanor Fred wonders out loud..."did you get taller?"

leopard: Ancient Egyptian priests wore leopard skins during funeral ceremonies. The skin symbolized the genius of Set, the god of Evil, the enemy and the adversary of gods and men. Wearing leopard-skin meant that Set had been sacrificed, the adversary defeated, and that the wearer carried about with him evidence both of that sacrifice and of the magic power it conferred. The sacrifice of which the skin was witness warded off the evil influence of the wicked spirits who haunted the dead. Similar beliefs and practices recur among Asian shamans and Amerindian civilizations.

The leopard is a symbol of pride, but it is also a hunter. In many respects it is related to Nimrod and, in more general terms, may be regarded as a symbol of the warrior and kingly castes in their aggressive aspects. The leopard symbolized blood-thirstiness as well as strength and cunning.

I just can't wait to see how the change in Gunn will manifest itself next season.

[> [> Re: Symbolic nature of the leopard (Panthera pardus)....spoilers for "Home" -- CW, 07:06:32 05/09/03 Fri

I swear, I'm not picking on you, Rufus!

This is just trivia and in no way a correction. Leopards are extremely difficult animals to train and control. In days, before animal rights groups became so strident, we used to see more shows with so-called lion tamers handling one or more lions and tigers at once. It was a rare event if you saw a leopard in one of these shows because they are so skittish and so easily distracted. Whether they are stupid compared to other big cats or just plain wiley and dangerous I couldn't say. At any rate almost every time you see a 'leopard' on TV outside of a nature show it's actually jaguar because like other big cats, jaguars are more trainable than leopards. Jaguars like leopards come in black as well as light, spotted varieties. I think the intent in "Home" was to portray a leopard. Chances are the cat shown in "Home" wasn't a leopard, but it plays one on TV. ;o)

Years ago, at the zoo in St. Louis there used to be a fantastic big cat trainer. He aways had more cats in the performance cage at once than you usually saw on TV. One summer he had a leopard in his daily performances. He warned everybody in the audience to be very quiet while the leopard was out in the cage with him. Just like we've all seen, the lions and tigers would snarl at each other and not pay attention to the trainer on occaision, but generally they stayed where they were supposed to be. The leopard was different and seemed to have a very short attention span. At one point in the performance a child of about six or seven got up from the audience and walked toward the concession stand at the far end of the performance cage. The lions and tigers always ignored this kind of thing, but the leopard immediately turned, slipped off its perch and began stalking the kid in earnest. It was one of the scariest things I ever saw in real life. If it hadn't been for the very secure cage, the kid would have been dead in moments.

[> [> [> Wow! anyone know what the shooting script call it? -- WickedBuffy, 12:46:58 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> It says "enormous JAGUAR" or Panthera onca....... -- Rufus, 00:15:53 05/10/03 Sat

So the symbolic meanin of the Jaguar is slightly different even though the cats are related...

Jaguar: Among American Indians, particularly those of Central America, it is a chthonic being related to the powers of the MOON and to the hidden secrets of the EARTH; for this reason it is sometimes also a psychopomp (spirit guide).

The twilight of evening is pictorially represented as the sun being swallowed by a giant jaguar. The jaguar, however, is also associated with the sun during the nocturnal movement of the stars (see black sun). The jaguar is said to be the lord of the mountain ranges, the wild animals, the echo, and the drum call; it is called "heart of the mountain." Often it is symbolically contrasted to the Eagle (which is associated with the sky and sun). -Among the Indians fo South America is found the legend of a four-eyed jaguar, perhaps a symbol of the profound wisdom of chthonic powers.
Herders Dictionary of Symbols

[> [> [> [> [> Gunn is a Big Cat now! (spoiler "Home") -- WickedBuffy, 10:19:13 05/10/03 Sat

I didn't even notice the funnee when it happened!

from the shooting script "Home"

"Gunn looks up, to find himself alone in The White Room. No Lacey, no nothin'. Just white.

C'mon, you got the wrong
guy in here. This room is
for the big cats--

Gunn trails off as an enormous JAGUAR materializes (think 40 FPS) from the whiteness, slinking toward him."

[> [> [> What do you mean hard to train???? Now you've hurt my baby feelings....;) -- a smarter than you think Leopard, 21:52:49 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Mebbe it's "tame", not "train"... isn't that better? :D -- WickedBuffy, 20:31:39 05/10/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Tame!!! I'll never be tamed...I'm a Big Cat...;) -- a not at all tame Big Cat, 01:22:17 05/11/03 Sun

Forget what you hear about the mangy King of Beasts (the women do all the work)......and the Tiger (unless there is one right behind me).....;):):):):):):):)

[> [> [> [> [> [> hey... hey... ...HEY! That's MY sunsign you're calling mangy! and I here was trying to help. -- WickedBuffy, 17:41:44 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> hey... hey... ...HEY! That's MY sunsign you're calling mangy! and I here was trying to help. -- WickedLeo, 17:42:56 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: hey... hey... ...HEY! That's MY sunsign you're calling mangy! and I here was trying to help. -- mine too says Leo x5 Rufus, 22:44:08 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We Leo multiples should start a pride! Or is that redundant? ;> -- WickedBuffy ... Lx6, 09:43:34 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We tend to gravitate towards each other..... -- Rufus, 17:10:28 05/12/03 Mon

Most of my friends are Leo's...;)

Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- Kate, 20:29:57 05/08/03 Thu

... for a fierce, yet highly sexually charged showdown between Spike and Angel when Angel finds out what Spike and Buffy have been up to? lol I mean I don't know if it's gonna happen or not. Just thinking it would be a heck of a lot of fun to watch on screen!! Or heck, even the look of shock on Angel's face when he learns that the soul club's membership is up to two now....hehehe.

DB was asked during a fairly recent Eonline chat (I think) about how Angel would react upon learning that Spike and Buffy had an affair. His response was (parapharsing)that Angel would laugh out loud (at the ridiculousness of it). Now that is just something I could totally would definitely be the *one* thing that would get the broody one to bust a gut. ;)

Or is it just me? :)

[> Has anyone else noticed that we've never seen them fight? -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:12:35 05/08/03 Thu

Angel and Spike have never had an honest to goodness fight scene. They've come close several times (Spike hitting Angel in "School Hard", or beating him from behind in "Becoming II", or Angel shoving Spike in "Lovers' Walk"). But, on all of those occasions, one of them struck a blow but the other didn't. As such, at least in my opinion, Spike and Angel have never really gotten to fight, which is REALLY odd considering that they're both supernatural beings who really hate each other. I'm kinda hoping we'll get to see those two vamps smackdown at some point.

[> [> Try "In the Dark" (AtS S1). -- HonorH, 21:40:46 05/08/03 Thu

Plenty of fighty stuff there. In my fics, Angel and Spike have a true love/hate relationship--they love and hate each other with equal passion. It'll be interesting to see if I'm right.

[> [> [> I'm willing to bet you're right(AtS S1). -- s'kat, 22:24:06 05/08/03 Thu

The reason I say that - is it is clear from Spike's words in School HArd that Angel was his yoda, his sire. And Spike stuck with Angel for 20 years, was even with him when he got a soul.

Also in School Hard, remember the interaction between Angel and Spike over Xander's neck? "You thought you could fool me? ME!" Spike tells Angel.

Or in Innocence - where Angelus kisses Spike after their banter.

Oh it is a love/hate relationship - like all vamps have.
I honestly think Angel's favorite vamp family - the one he felt closest to as Angelus was Darla, Spike and Dru. Drusilla was his worst crime and Spike was a direct result of that crime.

Also notice in Lover's Walk - Angel goes out of his way at least twice to stop Buffy from staking Spike, using Willow and Xander as an excuse. He also tells Dru to take Spike and get out of SunnyDale in Lie To Me - he does not kill her or Spike.

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm willing to bet you're right(AtS S1). -- ECH, 23:06:33 05/08/03 Thu

I think they are lovers.

[> [> [> Son-in-law -- lunasea, 05:25:36 05/09/03 Fri

I think Angelus tolerated Spike as his son-in-law. Dru, Angelus liked. She was fun and entertaining. He appreciated the creature he made her into. She was proof of how evil he was. Even Darla was annoyed by Spike. She wasn't thrilled with Dru either. She probably tolerated them both so that Angelus could have his pet along.

Angelus and Spike have fundamental philosophical differences. Angelus/Darla was about style and the view. Spike wanted fun and a good brawl. Not sure there was a whole lot of common ground. Angelus liked to teach his kids. Can't see Spike being a good student.

[> [> Don't forget FFL -- lunasea, 05:15:44 05/09/03 Fri

Someone already mentioned "In the Dark." Both times, Angel/us clearly had the upper-hand. Spike knows that he can't beat Angel in a fair fight, but Spike fights dirty much better than Angel does.

[> [> [> Re: Don't forget FFL -- ECH, 05:33:33 05/09/03 Fri

That was on Angel, how well the characters fight seem to fluctuate greatly. Angel won in the Dark because the writers wanted to show that he was a better fighter then the baddest vampire around.

Hell, they could have just as easily had Spike beat on him to that degree.

The writers hold very little continuity when it comes to their chracters ability to fight.

[> [> [> [> I agree -- Doug, 06:47:02 05/09/03 Fri

In "What's my Line, Part I" Kendra wipes the floor with Angel, whereas in "What's my Line, Part II" Spike has a definite advantage over Kendra. Also in "Lover's Walk" Spike also seems to show more fighting ability.

So it's just a matter of writer choice in a given episode.

[> One thing I'll guarantee, even non-spoiled: -- HonorH, 21:43:09 05/08/03 Thu

Angel showing up will throw the B/S relationship for a loop. How much of a loop and how long is unknown, but a loop shall be had.

[> [> Re: One thing I'll guarantee, even non-spoiled: (spoiler Touched) -- lunasea, 05:32:11 05/09/03 Fri

Is there a B/S relationship after she left that note on his pillow? As you said, Angel showing up would complicate that, but on the other hand, if B/S isn't somewhat resolved, it would complicate Angel showing up.

Why do I have a feeling that they won't show what is in that note until Angel and Buffy kiss?

[> [> [> Spoiler for 7.21 above -- Cleopatra Jones, 09:22:24 05/09/03 Fri

Don't normally post, but thought it was worth the warning...

[> Re: Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- s'kat, 22:16:37 05/08/03 Thu

Now I don't know if Jane E was lying when she stated this on Succubus Club interview or not, but she said in response to the W/K and W/T controversy and the lack of male homosexuality on the show:

"We'll address the male end of the homosexuality issue in the last two episodes. Buffy has a line in regards to the relationship between Angel and Spike."

Methinks these writers read slash fanfiction. And the biggest group out there is Angel/Spike - it's been out there since School Hard and Whedon initially meant Angel to be Spike's true sire. Poor Marsters and Boreanze...they keep saying in interviews their characters aren't bi.

So, uhm maybe they don't fight...or maybe their fight is in the same line as Faith and Spike?? Remember they cut a line Faith has in Dirty Girls that compares Spike to Angel -
"the soul thing tips the scale, bringing in darkness and light. I see it in Spike as well..."

Everyone can't wait to see B and A reunited. (Don't know why - seems pretty predictable to me and uh somewhat boring - I mean we've seen it in Forever, IWRY, etc..doubt it'll change much. I'm really hoping they do something different and interesting this round instead of just repeating the usual B/A smooching and angst, but not counting on it.;-)) No, I'm far more interested in seeing Spike and Angel reunited. Have no clue how they'll handle that one. Completely unpredictable. That's a reunion I've been waiting for since Spike got the chip, and especially after he got the soul. I'm not into A/S slash, but I admit it, I'm a Angel/Spike shipper, we are a lonely few, I know... These actors have chemistry together in spades. They had more on screen chemistry in S2 in IMHO then anyone else did including B/A and I was a huge B/A shipper back then. If they don't have some A/S interaction? I'm going to be seriously bummed.

But then you already know my dream ending: Angel turning to Spike at the end...saying Humphrey Bogart's classic line from Casablanca, "You know, I think this may be the start of a wonderful friendship." Will Whedon give it to me?
Doubt it. But a girl can dream, right?

[> [> Re: Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- ponygirl, 08:20:36 05/09/03 Fri

But then you already know my dream ending: Angel turning to Spike at the end...saying Humphrey Bogart's classic line from Casablanca, "You know, I think this may be the start of a wonderful friendship."

I'm starting to wonder if we might be getting more of an The End of the Affair ending for Spike and Angel. Two men looking after each other because of their shared loss. But maybe funnier.

In any case since ME was nice enough to give me two Spike/Faith smackdowns, and one with Faith in leather pants, I hope I'm not being greedy when I hope for a little Angel/Spike subtextually homoerotic pummelling.

On a less drool-y note I have been waiting all season for Angel's reaction, not to B/S, but to finding out he's not the only vampire with a soul. That's going to be interesting, I just hope it doesn't get lost in relationship angst.

[> [> Reading fanfic seems risky... too many possibilities for lawsuits -- Sheri, 10:09:47 05/09/03 Fri

[> The Gentle Art of Love -- Celebaelin, 02:54:59 05/09/03 Fri

Having just seen Seeing Red for the first time last night (the uncensored version is on tonight at 12.35) the A/S slash path of reasoning now seems to me to be not only accurate but is also responsible for my second Spike-related squick in close succession. Angelus probably taught the newly turned William everything he knows about phyicality and I now have the image running through my head of the anal rape scene in 'Scum' (a circa 1980 British film that dramatised life in a youth offenders prison).

Something for everyone in SR it seems. Tara's death, Xander's tacit admission that he deliberately jilted Anya at the altar, Buffy gleefully busting Warren's balls orbs (and of course Spike's), Andrew the betrayed 'Killer Queen', Anya the shallow, self-obsessed neurotic (who should really have been hitting the bottle hard at this point), Johnathon the wittless puppet, Warren the lousy shot, the list goes on. Anyone not dissolusioned, offended and otherwise left thinking 'Holy crap!' by the end of this one should leave the room, you've clearly missed the point. FANTASTIC.


[> [> Oops, many spoilers for Seeing Red in the above post -- Celebaelin, 03:30:56 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> Add to that -- msGiles, 04:41:47 05/09/03 Fri

.. junkie Willow back bigtime, to judge by the eyes .. I'm only surprised that Dawn didn't make a pass at Spike as well ..

[> [> [> Dawn's amateur psychology (more spoilers for Seeing Red and much sarcasm) -- Celebaelin, 05:34:46 05/09/03 Fri

On the other hand she did (sarcastically possibly, but she didn't ham it enough if it was supposed to be clear sarcasm) congratulate Spike for acting like he was trying to hurt Buffy. Well duh! Buffy rejects Spike, Spike does the horizontal mamba with Anya (like that's going to stay a secret) and, having witnessed said beef bayoneting on nerdcam, Buffy's little sister then praises Spike for hurting Buffy. Spike takes the hint and tries to restart the physical relationship with Buffy which leads to the bathroom boogie (two falls, two admissions and a lockout). Dawn's assessment of Buffy's feelings for Spike, or at least about Spike are a big factor in the pre-amble to that incident, without her 'words of wisdom' Spike probably would have carried on drinking himself into a stupor. Instead bleach-bonce does the do with the 'no means yes undead-keen-mean-queen slayer' and then burns rubber before somebody starts using his ass for a knife-holder. Good call Dawnie, while you're at it why don't you provide Willow with a copy of the Necronomicon and a reading light. The fertiliser is visibly arcing towards the air-conditioning unit as we speak, the question is 'What more could go wrong?' (yes, I am spoiled for what comes next but I'm in denial still).


[> [> [> [> fatal attraction -- msG, 08:30:30 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: fatal attraction2 - the content -- msG, oops, above post kind of minimal, 08:35:39 05/09/03 Fri

I wondered how you handled the spoiler bit. Good old denial, the solution to so many of life's little problems.

Tara and

[> [> [> [> [> [> nope, cut it off. One last attempt -- msG, puzzled. Is this a voy thing?, 08:37:51 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> subsides, mumbling -- msG, 09:07:35 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: Dawn's amateur psychology (more spoilers for Seeing Red and much sarcasm) -- HonorH, 11:00:01 05/09/03 Fri

Agree that Dawn's visit might have contributed to Spike then going to Buffy. However, I see no way she was sincerely congratulating Spike on hurting Buffy. She'd been far too sympathetic to Buffy in "Entropy", and given the entire attitude with which she approached Spike ("Do you love her? . . . Then how could you do that to her?"), there's no way her "Congratulations. It worked," was anything but fully snarkalicious. It's not hammed up, and that's a tribute to MT. Just check out the expression on her face. It says it all.

[> Re: Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- lunasea, 05:11:29 05/09/03 Fri

Actually what he said wasn't quite so simple. (I've got the interview bookmarked, since he answered one of my questions)

"I think he'll just laugh. Honestly, I think it's going to be him laughing and saying, "Okay, whatever." Though he may be laughing out of fear...or anger. People are funny that way."

Angel rarely only has one emotion at a time.

I think they will save any serious confrontation with Spike for next season, IF there is one and IF Spike crosses over.

Also, it would so easy to turn his appearance into a big Buffy-Angel thing. I think they are going to keep it short and sweet. In that file could be where to find Buffy, so he doesn't even have to see anyone else, let alone Spike. Give her her kiss and toy surprise and get on with his life. Just something that keeps the door open for those two.

[> [> Re: Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- Kate, 05:57:38 05/09/03 Fri

Thanks for the direct quote lunasea.

As for my anticipation regarding Angel and Spike, it's more about the two of them than their direct relationship to Buffy. That just adds another layer to an already fascinatingly complex relationship between the two vamps. Plus, doubt they are bringing DB over for two episodes just to drop off some info for Buffy and then he goes along on his merry way. I have a feeling Angel has an important part to he brings back a bit of nostalgia for the past as we come to the end.

[> [> [> Re: Anybody else drooling with anticipation... (Casting spoilers for 7.21&22 & speculation) -- lunasea, 06:05:32 05/09/03 Fri

As for my anticipation regarding Angel and Spike, it's more about the two of them than their direct relationship to Buffy.

Just wait for next season. ;-)

I have a feeling Angel has an important part to he brings back a bit of nostalgia for the past as we come to the end.

He does have an important part. WHY is Angel the one that will bring that info? I will post more on my speculation on this later.

Also, Joss will never kill off that relationship. After all the Spike/Buffy and Cordy/Angel stuff, we need a reminder that this is still open.

Kennedy and Willow - Circumstance and Convenience? -- Laura, 21:44:35 05/08/03 Thu

During this season I've been considering the development of Kennedy and Willow's romance with a speculative eye.

Because her lack of socializing outside of the Scoobie gang since Season Six we can assume Kennedy is the first gay woman to enter Willow's life. This tends to add to the theory that this relationship may not be as deep as Willow's last one.

It is hard for someone in Willow's situation to meet people. She is busy as a member of the gang and this not only makes it hard for her to meet other girls who can deal with the stresses of the supernatural. Kennedy being a Potential Slayer, Willow already knows is initiated into this world and vice versa for Kennedy. It seems natural for these women who like most young people are looking for romance that they would grab onto someone in a similar situation. This begs the question: if more the females in the Summers' residence were homosexuals and openly so, would their relationship exist or would they be drawn to other completely different people?

This relationship may very well be based on circumstances rather than personalities and interests. While Joss frequently sticks couples in this same sort of situation and makes them work for a time (Buffy/Angel, Anya/Xander, Giles/Jenny), we've seen some occasions that it is merely grabbing someone you're somewhat attracted to (Cordelia/Welsely, Cordelia/Xander) and therefore doesn't last.

Frankly, I worry for Willow's sake that she isn't jumping into things. Kennedy seems very different from Tara, which automatically makes me wary. She is much more forceful and has a very different attitude towards life. Tara started out seperate from the Scoobies and Willow was interested in her without Tara being part of her tight knit group, while Kennedy jumped in suddenly becoming an honourary member forcing our favourite witch to take notice of her rather than doing so under her own steam.

One might say that the fact that they have now slept together proves Kennedy and Willow have taken a big step in their relationship, but it is quite possible that they are thinking: "The world might end tomorrow so why not?" Beside sex does not necessarily mean love.

The only way I believe that their relationship is sincere is if it lasts. Like most things "time is the ultimate judge."

[> the question you begged is bothering me. can't put my finger on it, though. -- contumelious, 00:15:28 05/09/03 Fri

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