May 2003 posts

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Space Marathon -- M., 16:51:29 05/19/03 Mon

The Space Channel (Canadian) just ran a Buffy marathon of the top ten episodes as selected by the viewers. They were:

10. Tabula Rasa
9 & 8. Becoming I & II
7. The Body
6 & 5 Graduation I & II
4. Family
3. The Gift
2. Hush
1. Once More with Feeling

A good list but although several of my favs didn't make the cut I saw one striking omission and I wanted to know what other people thought.

Also the Space is having some kind of award show on June 26 so please go if you get this station please go to and vote.

[> Re: Space Marathon -- Wizard, 17:23:54 05/19/03 Mon

Wow. I missed most of it, but I didn't realize that The Body was so low. Most of the 'unusual/extra-special' eps were shown- with the omission being Restless. Is this your 'glaring omission?' I actually voted for most of these episodes (but not all). I just noticed how all of these episodes are from the middle of the series- S2-S6. No S1 or S7. I wonder- if Space decided to do a 'One Year Since Buffy' Marathon, which would be the top ten eps, because that's when you have to judge- when the story is (semi)complete (you have to leave some room for Angel, and for any mini-series and movies).

[> [> Yes. I wanted to see if it was as obvious as I thought it was. -- M., 17:59:05 05/19/03 Mon

"Restless" is the one episode I really expected to be there.

Good point about S1 and S7. I would have chosen "Angel" and "Prophecy Girl" from S1 and "Same Time Same Place" "Conversations with Dead People" from Season 7. And in no particular order I may have included: "Innocence", "The Wish", "Dopplegangerland", "Zeppo", "Fool for Love" and "Normal Again". I guess that 10 episodes is just not enough.

Also did you notice that season finales dominated the list? Let's hope tomorrow night lives up to this.

[> I have a hard time believing that "Family" got on there -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:35:45 05/19/03 Mon

In my personal opinion, this is the least of all the Joss written episodes. Tara's character doesn't get to be truly interesting (though I've never understood the supposed "sweetness", anyway); the MacClay family is just plain jerkish (I know that was the point, but putting jerks on television who don't at least get cool lines or personalities is a mistake); also, the plot is really just so-so. I've found that, at least for me, Joss really doesn't do so well with small scale stories. He's at his best when writing something huge or epic ("The Body" might seem to be an exception to this, but I think the enormous effect of Joyce's death on everyone raises it into the huge, though not epic, category).

I also definitely wouldn't put "Hush" on there, but I realize that's an extremely unpopular position, so I'll just shut up now.

[> [> Re: I have a hard time believing that "Family" got on there -- Eryn, 17:45:06 05/19/03 Mon

I was surprised that "Family" was shown too, but I was happy enough to see it since Tara is one of my favourites.

Too bad "Restless" didn't make it--I think it's one of the best episodes of the series.

Ten hours of Buffy isn't a bad way to pass Victoria Day (not that I actually *saw* all ten hours, but I was glad for the few I did see).


Finales of shows you have followed--which satisfied, which disappointed you? -- A8, 19:04:57 05/19/03 Mon

First of all, I've been spoiled, read the Wildfeed summary, and without disclosing anything, I anticipate a satisfying finale to BTVS. Other shows I've followed (to varying degrees) and their finales:

DS9--"What You Leave Behind"--though a lot of people I've talked to were disappointed, I thought it was an appropriate send off right down to the closing shot of DS9 becoming smaller and smaller in the distance.

Voyager--"Endgame"--Not one of my favorite series, but the finale was okay, if not too convenient. Once again, though, the final shot was very nice.

TNG--"All Good Things"--I was pretty tired of this series by the time S7 rolled around, but I thought the ending was okay, especially the use of Q, who had been very crucial in many of the plotlines throughout the series including the very first episode and especially in exposing the Federation to the Borg for the first time.

M*A*s*H*--I was actually a bit disappointed by this one. Probably too much hype for such a good series.

Seinfeld--At the time I thought it was great, but now I just think it was so-so and perhaps a year or two too late.

Twin Peaks--The concluding episode of the first season was great, and IMHO that's where the show should have ended. I lost interest real quick in S2.

But for me the best finale of any series was the second Bob Newhart Show (the one where he played a New England innkeeper). The whole series turned out to be a tainted sushi induced nightmare of the character Bob Newhart played in his first show (the one where he played a psychologist).

[> I Hate Endings. :/ I've wiped most from my memory. -- WickedPouting, 19:26:21 05/19/03 Mon

Refused to Watch the Ending Because I Had Heard Who xxxxxx & Now I Can Pretend She Didn't and Is Just Fine


Would Have Upset Me The Most If I Didn't Know There Would Be a Movie or More Shows Later

::sob:: dust just.... dust in the wind.

Best Finale Ever


When space aliens landed at the apartment and took everyone on board to use as experimental lab animals - hilarious.
When it was revealed that Phoebe was the Alien CEO - priceless.

--oops! hope that didn't spoil anything for anyone.

.... and I totally agree on the Bob Newhart Show! What a great finale that was! :>

[> Best (non-BtVS) Finale = Northern Exposure -- OnM, 19:33:01 05/19/03 Mon

Dr. Fleischman: "NY is a state of mind". IMO, after Buffy, the best TV series ever.

Some others I recall fondly:

China Beach - stayed true to itself, and the chaos it depicted. They resisted the urge to tidy everything up.

St. Elsewhere - If someone did this trick now, it would be deriviative, but St. E. was the first to be this audacious. I loved the very end credits where the MTM kitty flatlines. (Trademark St. E. black humor, right to the end).

[> [> Northern Exposure!!! I forgot about that one. Great one. -- A8, 20:29:54 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> [> BTW, welcome back A8 - we missed you! -- OnM, 05:45:56 05/20/03 Tue

[> Re: Finales of shows you have followed--which satisfied, which disappointed you? -- s'kat, 20:39:24 05/19/03 Mon


Tend to agree with everything stated above.

A few more favorites and disappointments:

1. La Femme Nikita - not a bad finale, where Nikita takes over Section as Operations and sets Michael free to be with his child, no longer part of section or her life. Interesting twist in a very convulted and twisty series that required a mental road-map to keep track.

2. Cheers - Sam and Diane's almost marriage and realization that nope, they did not belong together while sitting next to each other on a plane. Clever.

3. Bablyon 5 - not bad, a little disappointing, but I liked the twist at the end. What's interesting about this series ender was it was filmed the year before and was supposed to be shown the year before - but at the last minute, TNT renewed Babylon 5 for a fifth the last episode was held and a bunch of episodes were filmed in front of it. The result being that the fifth season wasn't as good as the first four and the finale outshone just about all of it.

4. St. Elsewhere - the fact that the whole series took place inside an autistic child's head. Classic twist and one that has been copied by STNG and BTVS.

5. Homicide Life on The Streets - this episode divided fans, some hated, some loved it - it's the episode where Bayliss confesses to his partner, the moralistic Andre Brauger that he killed a serial is brilliant in my humble opinion b/c the serial killer is linked to Bayliss' first assignment and the killer they never caught.
Homicide is probably the show that re-wrote cop dramas, gritty, real, and raw.


Ones' that disappointed:

Oh so many...too many to count.

1. Moonlighting - which I lost interest in way before it ended

2. Remington Steel - equally lost interest in, the last episode was romantic but felt contrived.

3. Seinfield - it made me wonder why I bothered watching them.

4. Quantum Leap...

5. Twin PEaks - yep it should have ended the previous year.
Although there was a certain eloquence and creepiness in the finale - where the lead becomes the villain.

6. Battlestar Galatica ...ugh. Just bad. Very bad.

It's rare that I like a finale. The ones I dislike? I tend to forget. And so many shows I don't make it that long.
For instance, I stopped watching the Sopranos in year 3, Six Feet Under in year 2, Northern Exposure after Rob Morrow left...I think I saw the finale, but for the life of me, I'm not sure I remember it - was it when we see Fleischman in NY?

[> Re: Finales of shows you have followed--which satisfied, which disappointed you? -- alwaysafan, 20:56:08 05/19/03 Mon

Okay I am not a trekkie, but I love the final of Star Trek the next generation. It was believable and it ended right where it had begun...with Q....excellent.

I also like the last Cheers

I on the whole have been more disappointed with endings more.
hated DS9 and Voyager and Seinfeld.
On the upside, I am glad to see smallville and Angel going back to back. Smallville is a surprisingly good show. Excellent character development. Nice to see how characters everyone already knows actually became those people.

[> Best and worst finales (who is no. 1? is the truth out there?) -- cjl, 21:40:53 05/19/03 Mon

VERY idiosyncratic list. (You expected different from me?) Here we go:


5. STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION -- "All Good Things" was a crackling good story, a typical late-period TNG mind-bender, with time travel, deft characterization, and one of Brannon Braga's patented temporally twisted plots. Even though the anti-time paradox had a huge hole in it (if we're dealing with anti-time, why did the future-Enterprise find the spatial rift when the ship came back six hours LATER?), I can shrug it off; when treated to two marvelous hours with Patrick Stewart and our friends on the crew of the Enterprise-D, minor temporal anomalies are part of the price of admission. (Shoulda been the 7th movie.)

4. NICHOLS - James Garner's second western series after Maverick--a witty, sardonic meditation on the death of the Old West and the collision between the myth of the rugged gun-totin' hero and the rise of the 20th century capitalist swindler. Nichols (Garner) was a con man who fell into the job as sheriff of a small town and used his position to squeeze every last drop of cash he could out the townspeople and the new breed of hustlers expanding into the frontier.

Of course, the network hated the series, and bullied the producers into changing the concept into a more traditional Western. At the end of the first season, Nichols was killed in a gunfight--the first time in my life I remember the lead character in a TV series dying--and his twin brother (also Garner) rode into town to clean up the mess. In retrospect, I feel bad that the more original concept was plowed under, but it doesn't matter. "Nichols" was cancelled anyway, and my last, indelible memory of the series was the sight of the hero lying dead in the center of town. Only Buffy's death in "The Gift" comes close to hitting that same, eerie chord in my mind.

3. ST. ELSEWHERE - The fat lady singing. The snow globe. The snarkiest metanarrative ending in the history of TV. St. Elsewhere was an MTM production, the brainchild of Mark Tinker, the son of the boss of the studio (Grant Tinker, Mary Tyler Moore's husband). That's right--the entire series was the deluded imaginings of the idiot son of the boss. (Think about it.) I'm almost positive "Normal Again" directly quotes this episode.

2. NEWHART - Not many people remember that, even before the finale, veterans from the old Bob Newhart Show (like Jack Riley) started sneaking into the Vermont woods in the final season of this series. Still, the final minute was a complete and delightful surprise, a brilliant shot at the Dallas "it was just a dream" season finale and a tribute to the chemistry between Newhart and Suzanne Pleshette.

1. THE PRISONER ("Fall Out") -- 35 years on, it's still resonant, funny, occasionally nonsensical, symbolically dense, and absolutely frustrating. I see something new tucked into the shadows every viewing. It'll probably be that way for the rest of my life.


3. X-FILES ("The Truth") -- Mulder and Scully ended the series as a no-kidding-official couple and they found out the aliens are indeed coming. (2012, for the record.) By the time this episode rolled around and Duchovny finally decided to grace us with his presence again, nobody cared. Not hearing much about the second movie, are we?

2. M*A*S*H ("Goodbye, Farewell and Amen") -- An excellent one-hour episode of M*A*S*H, stretched out to an interminable 2-1/2 hours. Alan Alda's liberal pieties never sounded more hollow when CBS was airing three minutes of advertising for every two minutes of program...

1. SEINFELD ("A Tough Nut to Crack") -- Did not, and perhaps could not, live up to the unbelievable hype. Series co-creator Larry David came back and put the Seinfeld four on trial for crimes against humanity. The trouble with Larry David is that sometimes he comes up with great concepts, but forgets to put in the jokes. Other than the last minute credit-closer, with Jerry in the orange jumpsuit doing standup for his fellow prisoners, the ep didn't have a single solid laugh.

Bad series ending redeemed by the movie: Star Trek.

Better to burn-out than it is to rust: Northern Exposure (never the same after Rob Morrow left), Twin Peaks, Hill Street Blues (died with Michael Conrad, but kept going anyway).

[> [> Re: Best and worst finales (who is no. 1? is the truth out there?) -- Eryn, 22:01:32 05/19/03 Mon

Twin Peaks was one of the best, because most shows wrap everything up beautifully, but TP went entirely the other way and raised only more questions. Things were deliberately left open. I loved it.


[> [> [> Re: Best and worst finales (who is no. 1? is the truth out there?) -- 110v3w1110w, 22:11:13 05/19/03 Mon

i like my endings with all lose ends dealt with and happy

[> [> [> Regarding the end of Twin Peaks... -- AngelVSAngelus, 22:52:59 05/19/03 Mon

one of the things that made that ending so abrupt was the fact that there was supposed to be another season. It got canceled, thus making the next opportunity to explain many questions raised but not tied up the movie Fire Walk With Me.

[> Re: Finales of shows you have followed--which satisfied, which disappointed you? -- Sofdog, 22:06:28 05/19/03 Mon


"Xena: Warrior Princess: A Friend in Need" - I'd long been a fan and, though the death was plain heartbreaking, it was entirely appropriate to the spirit of the show. Great backstory, fabulous action, heart and soul. I just hope Gabrielle's happy, wherever she is.

"La Femme Nikita: A Time for Every Purpose" - Another show I'd been hooked on for years. It absolutely killed me that the hero didn't get what she'd been fighting for all along. Not her man, not her freedom. And that final shot of her with the short, pale hair in the dark pantsuit up in the Tower: she was the very image of Operations. Poor Nikita.

"China Beach: Hello, Goodbye" - the final eps of this were sheer brilliance taking us back to McMurphy as a wide-eyed newbie instead of a battle-weary drunk, and at the same time bringing us through her sordid future as a worse addict and then recovery. She was just as wounded in the end. And the cut-ins of interviews with real nurse veterans was awesome.

"Witchblade: Ubique" - Didn't know it was the last till after. This was steeped in the show's mythology, the enigmatic villain revealed himself to have found a new life in cyberspace and thereby all people who viewed his sites, and all the hot boys got some air time. Seriously, it rocked.

"Farscape: Bad Timing" - They never had a bad finale. This one was definitely up to its most excellent record. Crichton comes up with a brilliant plan, Aeryn smugly sits back and lets him work out the details, Moya forces Pilot to save the day, Scorpy gets kinky, the plan goes down flawlessly (a first for this crew) and beautifully, Earth is saved and Aeryn accepts Crichtons ring. "Out across the endless sea, I would dive in ecstasy...."


"The X-Files: The Truth" - WTF was this about? Aside from being an obnoxious clip show, all this told me was that Strughold was right in the movie. One man alone cannot fight the future. Very disappointing. I really thought Mulder could stop the invasion.

"Hercules: The Legendary Journeys: Full Circle" - Meh. The dynamic was too weird when they killed Ioalus, replaced him with his alternate-double, then brought him back. It just didn't feel like an ending at all.

"American Gothic: Strangler" - This was cut too soon, and the rush resolution confused and frustrated me. The idea that Caleb could beat Lucas Black's influence - and genes - with the help of his dead sister had some promise.

"Any Day Now: Just the Beginning" - A stellar show was ended too soon. The idea that Renee was ready to marry a man she'd recently proved unable to live with irked me. But the show was about the women's friendship and that was well represented. I'd kind of hoped the show would end when young M. E. got pregnant, the point at which their friendship broke for 25 years.

[> Re: Finales of shows you have followed--which satisfied, which disappointed you? -- Rook, 00:08:26 05/20/03 Tue


BtVS (Yep, saw it early. No complaints.)
Quantum Leap


Mami Vice

[> Farscape Ending (spoilers) -- Mystery, 07:32:16 05/20/03 Tue

My favorite ending ever probably has to be the series finale for Farscape. The show did everything it ever did to you before. From beginning to end, the last episode showcased every single character beautifully, showing off how much each one has grown with the guidance of the other. John and Aeryn are finally coming together in an as-normal-as-they-can-have relationship, Chiana sacrifices her vision to help out the crew, D'Argo truly rages and is (as my friend put it) sobbing like a B!tch for John and Aeryn, Pilot makes the ultimate sacrifice by volunteering to fly to shuttle, a decision he was encouraged to make by Rygel. John gets to have a touching good-bye, possibly forever, with his father. He leaves a tape of information with an intro that sounds very much like his intros in the opening credits.
even though there are a lot of unanswered questions, especially the question of "what's the tie between Jool's race, Sebeceans and Egyptians?" They tie up the story just enough to leave hardcore viewers satisfied.
THEN the give you the sudden twist that you'd never expect: After Aeryn tells John about their baby and then accepts John's marriage proposal, to John complete and utter joy, the two are then attacked, they smile at each other, comment about crappy timing and kiss just as they're "seemingly" disintergrated by the attackers. D'Argo screams in primal rage and pain, Rygel looks shocked as hell, and Chiana, who is blind can only guess what just happened and reaches out to comfort D'Argo. Then there's a final shot of the engagement ring in the midst of glass like pieces, with a scene text of "To Be Continued" which caused me to sit straight up and scream at the TV "I HATE YOU! YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!" while my fiance (who never watched the show before this year) gasped and said "They DIDN'T!"

THAT is how shows should end. They give you everything you want, and then apply Murphy's Law. It should make you run the full spectrum of emotions for each character, and they should leave you screaming at the screen, whether in rage or pure joy, it doesn't matter. It's not a good ending unless it triggers so much emotion that someone who doesn't follow the series that much is affected by it.

I was also a pretty big fan of the Star Trek: The Next Generation ending. Anything that involves Q makes me giddy. And it all came full circle with the first episode, reminding us all that humanity is still being tested by the Q Continuum, that they never stopped testing humanity. It was a little too neat for my tastes, but it was good in the whole tying in to the beginning.

So I guess I also like endings that bring you right back to the beginning of the series, reminds you how much the characters have grown, how much they're ascended since you first met them. And I also like when they leave it so that there can be spin-offs and movies, because in true storytelling, there really is no beginning and no end, just arbitrary points chosen by the storyteller. The story still has threads that extend before the beginning and the effects of the story still ripple through the rest of life and the world.

Oh and while I'm talking about storytellers, I think that Andrew (if he survives) should talk about how he'd really like to make a movie about Buffy, and then say "We can get Pee-Wee Herman to play a vampire!" That would just be cute and would explain the differences between the movie mythos and the tv show mythos. Hehe.

[> [> Re: Farscape Ending (spoilers) -- Miss Edith, 09:46:14 05/20/03 Tue

I loved that ending. All the character moments were a joy. We even got a last moment with John and Harvey for notalgias sake. One minute I was crying at Chiana's sacrifice which caused the blindness, than I was laughing at John fighting Harvey in his mind with both dressed as bunnies. And I was crying tears of joy when Aeryn told John it was his baby and he gave her the ring, and then just at the moment you are whooping for joy it all gets cut off when both characters explode into the sea with D'Argo's screaming echoing in the back of your mind for weeks afterwards. And the final shot of the ring had me sobbing. David Kemper said it was planned like a drive-by shooting, illustrating the randomness of life. The lead couple getting knocked off by some unknown alien in the closing 30 seconds, yet they die kissing and proclaiming their love for each other. Well it doesn't get more heart wrenching than that. I only have to think of the look Aeryn gives John as she puts her arms around him in their last moments, and I end up tearful again.

[> [> [> and... the baby, too ::sob:: -- WickedBuffy, 15:14:10 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> and proving he's a true Scorpio (spoilers) -- MsGiles, 05:44:47 05/22/03 Thu

.. discovering the joys of lurve in that special Scorp style. Nobody can give Eew! like Scorp. Part cadaver, part pantomime dame. I wanted to see him give Spike a run for his money in the BigBad turned sexgod stakes.

[> [> [> [> Aww I love Scorpuis -- Miss Edith, 10:22:18 05/22/03 Thu

When Sikozu first kissed him and he looked shocked at being shown such tenderness my heart just melted.

I saw the censered BBC version of the finale. Farscape is shown at 6.45pm on BBC2 as is Buffy as all sci fi is seen as being kiddies stuff. (Dead Things and Villians were cut to shreds).

I didn't see the whole Scorpuis/Sikozu scene becaue of this. I did hear that it ended with Scorpy getting a little carried away and strangling Sikozu with his belt. I did see the bit where jealous Braca was watching them going at it through the window (I think the beeb cut away rather quickly mind you). I always thought there was something very homoerotic about Scoruis and Braca. What a shame that triangle couldn't have contined.

[> [> Re: Farscape Ending - wasn't designed to be the end though! -- Silky, 06:04:00 05/22/03 Thu

Show got cancelled in last two days of filming this episode. There was supposed to be another season - dratted SciFi. Haven't watched any of their new junk either - and I won't.

They made a big mistake cancelling Farscape.

[> "X-files" finale was just awful, "Seinfeld" was pretty bad too -- Vegeta, 08:21:21 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> The end of Seinfeld -- dream, 12:52:48 05/20/03 Tue

I've always been convinced that the last episode was Larry David's attempt to remind everyone that these characters are not role models, not to be looked up to. They are selfish to the core. They are horrible people. Larry David seemed to have a pretty heavy-duty self-loathing thing going on, and when he came back to write that episode, he seemed to be overwhelmed by a desire to set the record straight, so to speak. All sorts of weird emotional things came through, and I think the point was well-taken - the Seinfeld characters really did represent the worst of a certain brand of contemporary American, and I think they were being perceived as cool (well, Elaine, Jerry and Kramer, anyway) by far too many viewers.

The problem was, of course, that the episode was boring, painfully contrived and terribly unfunny.

[> [> [> Re: The end of Seinfeld - was perfect -- Silky, 06:09:21 05/22/03 Thu

Because the selfish, nasty, shallow characters got what they deserved.

And you're right. They were being perceived as cool by those who didn't 'get' the show and what it was really saying. My co-workers watched the show religiously (I didn't) and didn't get the ending. But, maybe that's because they were shallow, selfish, mean people in real life - and thought Seinfeld was saying that was OK. They didn't get it!! And they didn't like the ending because they didn't get it.

[> [> [> [> I got the point--but the last Seinfeld episode wasn't funny. -- cjl, 07:33:14 05/22/03 Thu

I understand that Larry David was pointing out to us the damage these characters did to the world and how utterly self-obsessed and petty they were. But by putting them on trial, David put his four very talented actors on the bench for most of the episode. Rather than watch Babu and The Virgin and the Soup Nazi and a cast of oddballs comment on their antics, I would have preferred to see the Fearsome Foursome doing what they do best: bouncing acidic, neurotic dialogue off each other, and making the world a nastier place to live.

From what I hear, David learned his lesson, and for his new series, "Curb Your Enthusiasm," he's dumped the high-concept plots and relies more heavily on simple set-ups and improvised dialogue. Seems to be working well for him.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: High concept plots.. -- Silky, 08:18:40 05/22/03 Thu

..seem to be over the heads of most TV viewers - which is why most of the really good shows -- the ones that require thought -- don't last on network TV. Cable may be better - don't personally know (except for Farscape).

I'm just saying the people I knew who watched Seinfeld didn't really understand what was being said throughout the series - they took it a face value, and didn't get the underlying commentary - and didn't understand the end - good, bad or otheriwse. They didn't understand the point that was made.

[> [> [> [> [> [> "High concept" plots weren't what Seinfeld was all about. -- cjl, 09:26:59 05/22/03 Thu

I can't understand why Larry David forgot that.

The funniest and most memorable episodes in Seinfeld history were: the gang waiting for a table in a Chinese restaurant and wandering around a parking garage, looking for the car.

That's it. Those were the plots.

In each episode, Jerry was his typical, surface-charming, supercilious self, George was a monstrous, all-devouring neurotic (no big surprise there), Elaine was condescending and whiny (that's my girl!), and Kramer was addled-brained and oblivious. The interaction between the characters was magic. ("It's GOLD, Jerry!")

Larry David's last two scripts for the series were the finale and the death of Susan Ross at the end of S7. Seinfeld was a sitcom, but in each case, there was "sit" but no "com." Having George's stinginess kill Susan was a brilliant idea, but where were the laughs? The best laugh I got out of the situation was when we picked things up after Susan's funeral in S8--George and Jerry got all misty-eyed about The Wrath of Khan and the death of Spock, after blowing off Susan's death with barely a second thought. Now THAT was funny. Cruel, unflattering--but funny. The finale could have used more of that type of humor.

[> Favorite? Blake's 7 (spoiler) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 11:14:03 05/20/03 Tue

They all find the fate that the vast majority of revolutionaries find -- an unmarked grave in the middle of nowhere, on a planet in the back end of infinity.

And it wasn't their mortal enemies who did them in -- it was some local yokel who got lucky.

[> [> Re: Favorite? Blake's 7, Forever Knight, Black Adder, TNG (spoiler) -- fresne, 11:59:47 05/20/03 Tue

Hey, I was just thinking about Blake. Avon's final smile was perfect. And grim. And perfect. And cut to black.

Forever Knight, painful, but in a gothic romance, understandable. Yes, end on a final rising of the sun.

I also rather enjoyed the end to the Black Adders. So, how is everyone going to die this time?

TNG: All Good Things wins my vote as the best final episode that almost makes me think the series pilot doesn't annoy me. Plus, great integration of a running theme. The way the final pull back from that final poker game made me see each panel on the ship as a playing card. Games of chance. Interaction.

[> [> [> Least Favorite Ending EVER? Forever Knight. (Spoilers) -- Farquarson, Formerly Rhys, 12:30:40 05/20/03 Tue

Hated that ending. Hated hated hated hated hated hated it. Screamed myself into laryngitis yelling at the TV set, because every character died in the last few episodes (Javier Vachon, Janette, etc.), or died or was mortally wounded with no hope of recovery in the last episode. And having the show end with vampire cop Nick Knight begging his sire LaCroix to stake him was a serious downer. That last episode became my personal standard of how NOT to end a TV show.

[> [> [> [> Absolutely whole-heartedly agree -- Masq, 17:07:52 05/20/03 Tue

Never end a show by reversing the message your show spent years and years trying to convey.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: About Forever Knight -- Brian, 04:30:22 05/21/03 Wed

I always viewed that ending as either one of the greatest cliff hangers for a series, or one of the best finales ever. It shocked me to the core. Nick's search for redemption came at a horrible cost; everyone he held dear.
Yet, he died with hope in his heart to reach a better world, and ironically, perhaps, he redeemed the greatest villian of the series: LeCoix lost his son and found his soul.

[> [> [> [> [> Exact reason I so detested the "Xena" finale. -- Rob, 12:19:52 05/21/03 Wed

The entire series had been about how even the most awful villian can reform and achieve redemption through atonement, love, and fighting to protect those that he or she once harmed. And how is Xena repaid in the end? She must die to save the souls of the people she harmed in the past. Not to mention the fact that her death was cheap and unnecessarily gruesome. She was shot with hundreds of arrows and beheaded. A painfully unfitting and cruel ending for a woman who is supposed to be the greatest hero the world has ever known. I loved the "Buffy" ending because it took all of the themes of the show and reaffirmed and strengthened them. "Xena"s end spit in the face of the show's messages. By the last season, Xena had without a doubt earned redemption. To show that in the end she still had to be punished further destroyed that message.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh... -- Sofdog, 07:09:06 05/22/03 Thu

Throughout the series it seemed clear to me that Xena would never be able to atone for all she'd done. There just wasn't a gesture big enough to equal the evil that resulted from her actions. The 40,000 souls was a little too pat, but it was big enough to balance the karmic weight of what she and her armies and her victims (Callisto, Thelassa) had done in the world.

I thought it was thematically appropriate that Xena had finally found peace. Her death was gruesome, but it read to me as a great battle death of an epic warrior. When she and Gabrielle talked about settling down, I never bought that Xena had that in her. She's an action-oriented person. That wasn't going to change. And they'd spent so much time focussing on her being devoted to the warrior's path.

Xena, like Boromir, got the great battle death of overwhelming odds that befit a warrior. And that final set-to with Yidoshi was pretty sweet, when she zapped back into her armor.

But that's just me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The problem I have with that is... -- Rob, 11:28:06 05/22/03 Thu

Xena always did this to herself, believing that she could never be redeemed, whereas others continually told her that she was. Over and over she was confronted with her past deeds and shown why now she should stop her suffering. She did this to herself, while Gabrielle, even in the last ep, argued that she is judging herself too harshly. I wanted in the last ep for Xena to finally realize that she is a good person and deserving of love, something she never came to grips with. I did not want her to be punished for her past deeds. Over and over, she was taught that she was good, and rejected the lesson. In the end, she rejects it again.

I also objected to the manner of her death. She provoked that army, had herself killed so that she could enter the Land of the Dead to fight Yodoshi, with the belief that she could return at the end. After a huge quest on Gabrielle's behalf and a huge fight on Xena's, Xena finds out at the last minute that, nope, she can't return. Also, the notion that in order for souls to remain in a state of grace, Xena must remain dead is preposterous. The concept of grace itself is unconditional. Grace does not mean that "we'll be at peace only if you give up your life for us."


Joss and Joseph Campbell (no spoilers) -- RadiusRS, 22:36:02 05/19/03 Mon

Even though I have already seen the finale, I will not post any spoilers about it, except to say that Joss' finish, though perhaps predictable to some, shows how the guy continues to redefine and subvert mythology and storytelling to his "dying" breath. That said, I had the rare pleasure of bumping into Joss at a store in L.A. a few months ago (the day it was revealed that Cordy was the Big Bad on Angel as a matter of fact). After building up the nerve to introduce myself and babbling to him (something along the lines of "Where do you find the time to eat?" His response: "Lots of Jack in the Box"), I asked him one of the many questions (that I remmembered) I had for him and was quite suprised by the answer. I asked him if he has been influenced by Joseph Campbell's work in his own work. The answer: "I'm familiar with him, but I've never read Joseph Campbell." Last fall, I was also lucky enough to meet Neil Gaiman at a book signing. That time I had the chance to go back and ask some of the questions I was too starstruck to verbalise and, he too, told me he had never read Joseph Campbell's work, but was more influenced by books like The Golden Bough and writers like Zelazny. I had just finished reading Gaiman's American Gods and the similarities to Buffy and Campbell seemed almost obvious. I was surprised that both these Storytellers, who so revolutionized their respective mediums, whose themes echo each others themes and Campbell's work (The Hero's Journey, Death and Rebirth as an essential step in the Journey, Artifacts (like Sandman's Tools or the Scythe) as means for the Hero to direct and concentrate their power, The Hero leaving Home as a step on the journey, only to return, etc.) got to the same place he did on their own, and in the process gave us modern stories, deeply rooted in the past and the collective experiences of Humanity, that open the door to the next step. We''l be reading, Watching, and taking our own journeys....

[> I'm surprised -- MsGiles, 05:05:41 05/20/03 Tue

Where did the Cambell connection with Buffy originally come from, then? Was it mentioned by other writers on the show? Did some genius on the board come up with it? Some other writer? Or could Joss have seen the TV programmes, even if he hadn't read the books? (you'd have thought he would have mentioned that, though)

[> Re: Joss and Joseph Campbell (no spoilers) -- Michael, 05:39:50 05/20/03 Tue

I think that many writers and artists have not read Joseph Campbell's work The Hero with a Thousand Faces, but they have been influenced by its ideas. Campbell built on Frazer's The Golden Bough and the work of Jung.
Jung believed in the collective unconscious which housed archetypes. The hero's journey is just one of the manifestations of the archetypes. Campbell's thesis was that all of our hero legends spring from this common ground and that's why we constantly create stories about heroes. The heroes are us. The tales are the dramatic stories about the everyday struggles of our own lives.
There's a video series out there featuring Bill Moyers and Campbell that is incredible.

[> Did you ask about Jung, though? -- mamcu, 05:44:26 05/20/03 Tue

Campbell's ideas were really his particular take on Jung's more general theories of archetypes. The hero's journey is Campbell's more detailed refinement of that. However, Jung would explain the similarity between Buffy and Campbell's theories the same way he explained similarities between Polynesian and Greek myth, etc.: they all tap into the collective unconscious. To Jung, I think it would be more surprising if Whedon wrote about a hero and did not echo Campbell's theories, whether he had read him or not.

[> [> No I didn't...."D'oh!" -- RadiusRS, 06:42:17 05/20/03 Tue

[> You have to remember -- CW, 06:04:53 05/20/03 Tue

Campbell's whole point was that there are common motifs and even common modes of storytelling that cross human cultural boundaries. A 'good' heroic story written by anyone will usually look like they follow Campbell's description to a certain extent, even if they never heard of Campbell. Even Campbell would say, it's more unusual when they don't. The devotees of Campbell often think he created something rather than describing something that he believed exists in all of us.

[> [> Ditto...Campbell didn't invent the form, he chronicled it. -- Sofdog, 06:27:56 05/20/03 Tue

Every human is subjected to the same form of storytelling constantly throughout our lives. From the most remote, primitive village to the most elite universities we all experience the same essential storyline.

Though it's amazing that Joss has never read Campbell, 'cause it was an article in which he was quoted as basing Buffy on Campbell's heroic structure that introduced me to the term 'hero's journey.'

[> [> [> perhaps Joss was in his 'Trickster' incarnation -- MsGiles, 06:31:58 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> A clarification about Campbell (a teeny spoiler for the finale) -- RadiusRS, 07:14:07 05/20/03 Tue

I am well aware that Campbell served as a sort of human database (if you will) of mythological storytelling and archetypes, and that his work is sort of a "Beginner's Guide" to mythical storytelling and archetypes in general. I'm just saying that Joss hits most of the important points described in Campbell's work almost in the order Campbell writes about. And maybe it's coincidence or the collective unconscious at work, but Joss' work on both Buffy and Angel hits a lot of these points. As for other popular heroes in American vulture, it took Superman decades to die and be reborn, a MAIN and often final step in Campbell's Hero's Journey (unless you consider his origin a death and rebirth) and Batman and Spidey, whose origins are arguably about death and rebirth, have never actually died. Buffy died twice in less than five years! The first in the very first season of the show! Joss has said that the First season contains the arc to the whole show, as does Season 5 because no one was absolutely sure at those times whether the show would be coming back. Season 7 echoes these themes but this time, Buffy doesn't die, just the part of her that has gotten her through life since she was Called but that also caused her emotional isolation. In essence, Joss has transcended Campbell in a nice, semi-ironic, postmodern twist.

As for that Joss quote you mentioned...I read somewhere that one of Joss' biggest influences as a Storyteller was Star Wars, which I believe he saw repeatedly during it's original run. A guy as smart as Joss would probably have read up on George Lucas and found out about Lucas' connection with Campbell and the essence of the Hero's Journey. As a writer and hollywood insider, he would probably have been exposed to Campbell and his influence on Modern Storytelling in the many years he's been in the business without ever directly partaking of Campbell. If I know writers (and I do), Joss probably DIDN'T expose himself to too much Campbell so that he could feel freer as a Storyteller, and so he could create what he wanted without worrying about drawing comparisons (and also because he wants the world how gosh darn smart he is!).

[> [> [> Re: Ditto...Campbell didn't invent the form, he chronicled it. -- Eryn, 08:19:38 05/20/03 Tue

I was about the say the exact same thing. Campbell was trying to depict the characteristics of the universal myth. Whether you've read Campbell or not, myth is myth. George Lucas' "Star Wars" was very much informed by Campbell's work. On the other hand, L. Frank Baum couldn't have read Campbell's work, but "The Wizard of Oz" follows the same kind of mythic structure.


[> Jung, Campbell and storytellers -- lunasea, 07:33:28 05/20/03 Tue

The way I look at what Jung and Campbell contributed to our collective understanding of the collective unconscious is to use the analogy of a coloring book. Neither man actually colored in the coloring book. The storytellers have been doing that ever since we became conscious. Jung described the lines that make up the forms and Campbell concentrated on the colors that we use to color them in.

We all get the same empty coloring book. That is why it is called the "collective" unconscious. It doesn't have to be taught to us. The box of crayons we get depends on all sorts of things. What crayons we pick out of that box is even more individual. We don't need to know the process that we use to do this.

I don't think that it makes people better storytellers to know this. If anything, I think it detracts from the stories. A story comes from the Transcendent Function. The less it is filtered through the four psychological functions, the more "whole" it is. The Transcendent Function arises to compensate for the imbalance among the psychological function. When we start filtering that through the psychological functions, we put back this imbalance and it starts to lose its universality.

It surprises me that Joss hasn't been forced to read Campbell because it has become standard reading when dealing with mythos. I don't necessarily consider this to be a good thing. Sometimes it is best not to even realize what influences us or what we are doing. Take all that stuff, shove it into the unconscious and see what the Transcendent Function does with it.

It is like photography. I know the rules of visual aesthetics. At this point, when I compose a picture, I don't even think about them. I'm sure they influence me on some level, but at this point, I let my eye make the picture. Even when I choose my lens, it is pretty automatic. Sometimes I notice that I made an interesting choice and then go back to see what drove it.

Typically I just show my stuff to people and they like it. They don't care what lens I used and neither do I. It is something some photographers are obsessed with. What camera did you use? What film? What lens? If you look at photographic magazines, this info is usually included. My instructors and mentors have shown me how unimportant this is.

What is important is your eye. In the case of Joss, what is important is the heart's eye. He knows his emotions (well not this season, but the man is allowed to be tired). THAT is what is important, not the form of the hero's journey.

The great battle done...(Spoilers for Chosen and S7)..who will answer our questions? -- Anne, 23:35:55 05/19/03 Mon

The great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle...

Well there it is, the final battle on Buffy, and I don't know about you, but I loved it. Not just the epic scale of the final confrontation but also the mythic resonance of the gift of power. To me, both moving and inspiring, as the best of Buffy should be.

But now, sadly, it is over. And with the excitement of the conclusion worn off (for now, until I watch it again), the questions must come. So often the question begins with "why?" Why would the First use Spike as an agent when it had an army of super-vampires available? Why did the First not open the seal whenever it felt like it? Why leave it to Buffy? Why did the First and Caleb need the scythe? Why have Caleb appear in the final episodes? Why focus so much on Principal Wood when he is not a major player in the final conflict? Why did the First want to wipe out the Slayer line?

Such is my inner turmoil...and a million more questions that I cannot help but want to know the answers to...Someone, please! Lend your wisdom, insight or philosophy. Tell me your questions. Give me some answers!

[> Re: The great battle done...(Spoilers for Chosen and S7)..who will answer our questions? -- Rook, 00:42:32 05/20/03 Tue

1) Why would the First use Spike as an agent when it had an army of super-vampires available?

Why does any power use saboteurs and spies when they have armies available? Because it's more effective to attack your opponents on multiple fronts than to simply execute a straight-on rush.

2) Why did the First not open the seal whenever it felt like it?

I think it was show to try this what? 3 times? And it was stopped.

3) Why did the First and Caleb need the scythe?

Either to destroy it or get it out of Sunnydale and away from anywhere Buffy could find it.

4) Why have Caleb appear in the final episodes?

To create a physical threat for Buffy?

5) Why focus so much on Principal Wood when he is not a major player in the final conflict?

Because he acts as an agent of conflict for some of the main characters.

6) Why did the First want to wipe out the Slayer line?

Thought this was pretty clear when it explained that it needed to shift the balance of evil/good in the world, in order to become corporeal.

[> [> Re: The great battle done...(Spoilers for Chosen and S7)..who will answer our questions? -- Anne, 01:15:13 05/20/03 Tue

ok, but:

1) But why Spike? And why was he killing random citizenry instead of 'infiltrating' the Scooby gang or secretly trying to take them out? Why did the First kidnap Spike and focus so much on him? As the First itself said, it could have bled Andrew - then there would be no way for Buffy to even know about the seal until the Ubervamp had come out. And the army analogy doesn't fit here: you use spies and saboteurs to discover your enemies weaknesses, to even the balance of power between you - but when your army outnumbers the enemy by thousands to one, you hardly need to sabotage them to gain victory.

2) It was never actually stopped: Buffy and Andrew stopped the seal from generating all the bad hellmouth mojo, but they didn't actually stop it from being active, witness how the SITs could still open it by pouring out their blood - the question still remains as to why they didn't just sneak in with a bucket of blood - it wasn't like Buffy was guarding the seal or anything.

3) Buffy was never going to find the scythe - her focus was entirely on the school, the seal and the hellmouth. If Caleb hadn't shown up or *told* Buffy he had something of hers at the vineyard, she never would have gone there.

4) Still not sure on the motivation though: he seemed somewhat out of place when the First's servants were eyeless Bringers or mindless Ubervamps. Ok, you want a servant who can think and attack the Slayer mentally, but what made Caleb special? How come he could channel the First and no-one else?

5) Its true Wood had an interesting role to play, but in the overall season arc it had no apparent relevancy - once again why would the First initially use Spike as a weapon and then try to get him killed by Wood? If the First somehow knew that Spike would prove its undoing, then surely it would have aimed more at eliminating him? Getting a human to do the job just seems rather underkill - rather like that prison woman trying to kill Faith in Angel.

6) This is pretty iffy: I can't see a logical join between vampires > humans/evil > good = corporeal First.

Thanks for the perspective though, and I've thought of another couple:

7) Why did the First not want Buffy to die? From almost the beginning we have seen that the First wanted all the SITs dead, but it wanted Buffy herself to last until the end. Why? What could it possibly gain by having her guarding the SITs? If Buffy is unable to activate another slayer upon her death, then what matter if she dies at all?

8) What prophecy was Caleb referring to when the First and he were discussing freeing the scythe? If he meant that line "It is for her", it isn't much of a prophecy: and although the scythe was certainly helpful to Buffy and the SITs, it still doesn't explain why the villains didn't just leave it buried - as Buffy said, they never knew about the scythe, they never knew about the Guardians...the First could have happily left all these quiet unless it had some unrevealed purpose for the thing.

[> Adoration and speculation (Spoilers up to 7.22 and AtS 5 Casting) -- RadiusRS, 01:30:49 05/20/03 Tue

One of my single favorite moments of this episode was when all the Slayers worldwide were activated; my first shed tear for the episode (hey so I'm Joss' bitch, at least I'm man enough to admit it!) was the moment when a Big Girl, lying on the floor, becomes activated and faces up to her abuser (father perhaps; I'm getting gossebumps just writing this!). This theme of empowerment really did it for me. Buffy's final battle with Caleb was GREAT! Especially the end of it. Loved the Angel and Buffy scene (he seems in better spirits than he has in ages), especially the subtle cookie dough reference to I Will Remember You (remember??? The whole sitting in bed and eating cookie dough ice cream????). Loved Dawn's Buffy shin kick, and how quickly it was resolved. Loved Spike's drawing of Angel on the punching bag. Loved Wood's interaction with Faith especially the reversal of roles...other than The Mayor, Angel and, recently, Wesley, he seems to be one of the only people on the planet that has gotten through to her; makes me wish even more that the Faith series had become a reality. Love how the Slayers shared the power by passing the Scythe around. Loved Willow's "Oh...My...Goddess". Was shocked at Anya's death, though I knew it was coming; it was so brutal and sudden, yet also somewhat appropriate seeing as she probably has one of the highest body counts of any Whedonverse character ever...I will miss her presence in the Whedonverse so much...Good Luck Emma!! Also, R.I.P. Amamnda. I was so touched by Xander and Andrew's final interaction, though I WAS expecting a hug (kind of zany but doesn't a Xander/Anya/Andrew threesome seem rife for fan fic possibilities?). Speaking of Andrew, I desperately hope we get to see more of his character; he started off as the "Huh?" member of the Evil Trio, and ended up so much more. And how about that final scene of Sunnydale going to Hell?! I'm still not sure what the FE's taunting of Spike at the end of "End of Days" truly accomplished, other than setting up the scene with Spike asking Buffy to give him the amulet now that he has no hope with her...unless that's what It wanted? At the end of the episode, Spike truly became a Champion...though anyone who has followed his existence could tell that there was something special about this Mama's boy who killed two Slayers (something Angelus never accomplished, not even once with all the inside knowledge he had of Buffy). As for what this means on Angel...well, wouldn't it be just great if Spike was the one who fulfilled the shanshu prophecy? Wouldn't that keep with the tradition of giving Angel what he wants only to have it rudely taken away from him? In a post below, someone asked whether Spike would be an ally of Angel's or a nemesis. He'll probably be both. Knowing ME, I think he will take up the role Angel occupied until Home (leader of a ragtag bunch of heroes against the Man), so they will probably be at odds. At the same time, Angel will have a chance to relate to Spike in much the same way he related to the now absent Connor (and perhaps ME will come up with a nifty explanantion for the Angelus vs. Drusilla as Spike's sire debate, though canon and Fool for Love indicates it to be Drusilla, perhaps his comment from School Hard might be explored), as well as finally have a peer to relate to the way he hasn't been able to relate to anyone else since they are both ensouled vampire Champions.

As for your questions...despite oncoming defeat, the FE didn't seem angry or even all that worried...maybe the destruction of the Hellmouth WAS its plan all along? Maybe it's power is diluted by too many Hellmouths? Besides, why would it attack the one in Sunnydale when the in Cleveland is probably A LOT easier to open? When Buffy asks Angel if the Amulet and info are from a "reliable source", he responds "Not remotely." If the FE is truly the origin of all evil, it stands to reason it has ties to Wolfram & Hart. Maybe this was all part of its plan? I think that Spike's Hero's Journey has just begun, and his blood ties to Angel (not to mention that Buffy thing), the FE's interest in him, and his move to Angel lead me to believe that the FE isn't done with either Angel or Spike. So I think the FE's motives and apparent failure may actually be plot points for Angel and/or the future Whedonverse series. I think it's obvious that, by now, the First was only using Caleb...when the Bringers are digging out the Scythe, It shows us that Caleb, too, is expendable. Caleb also represented the Negative Male Principle (much as Angelus did, and she also hit him where it hurts at the Mall after she has ended his apocalyptic plan) as a foil to Buffy' Positive Female Principle. If my pet theory is correct and the Slayer power is linked to The First, by activating ALL Slayers, the Scoobies might have given It an opening to all the Slayers in the world. And if my pet theory continues to hold true, this might explain why the FE exploited the "weakness in the Slayer line" that Buffy caused. My question is...why did the FE wait until the seventh season to put it's plan in motion? Why not sooner? In short, the only major change in Buffy's life between the last episode of Season 6 and the First episode of Season 7 is that Spike now had a soul. Makes you think huh? Also, I haven't seen any mentions of the fact that Spike went to Africa to regain his soul, in a Trial reminiscent of the Angel Season 2 episode The Trial. Also, someone with the power to give Spike his soul must be somehow connected to the PTB, Wolfram & Hart, and/or the First Evil. I mention Africa and the First Evil because that is where the First Slayer was born. Also, the Seal had a picture of a goat on it, which connects the First and the "Ram" in Wolfram & Hart (see the Pylea arc for more details). I have read that Spike was supposed to be a MAIN CHARACTER on the Faith spin-off, which is why he is now a regular on Angel, since they didn't want to let Marsters go and perhaps give him an identity separate from both Buffy and Angel. So this further lends credence to my belief that we are only beginning to see Spike's purpose in the Whedonverse. I think the focus on Wood was also because he was unique, a tie to the History of the Slayers, a foil and nemesis for Spike, and a wild card. He also seemed like a prime candidate for the Faith spin off. I hope this spec answers some of your questions and gives you that fix you need. I weep with you.

P.S. Some more loose ends:

Amy - Will she come back? Perhaps as a nemesis for Willow either on Angel or a spin off? I would have liked more closure with her after her appearance in The Killer in Me.

Dawn - Is she still what she was? I think she has a lot of potential to become an important Buffyverse character.

The First - see above. Also, now that all it's Bringers are dead, can it make more?

Willow - It seems to me that Willow became what the Crone that explained to Buffy the source of the Scythe was. In other words, I think Buffy, Willow, perhaps Faith, and even Cordelia might become a new Council of Women to replace the Crone and her unseen cronies.

Jasmine - Why didn't the Sunnydale folks get Jasminized? Probably because it would be a logistical nightmare for the writers on Buffy. But I believe there's a fairly simple explanation: because the power went out (Which happened in Touched and at least a day or two passed before Angel's appearance in End of Days. Jasmine's newsconference happened the night before the events of Home so Angel leaves for Sunnydale and to see Connor the day after Jasmine's newsconference. Therefore, the Scoobies didn't get Jasminized because a) they had more important things to do than watch TV and b)they had no electricity even if they wanted to. Besides, the Slayer household seems to watch more DVDs than TV.)

[> [> A sense of surreality... -- Anne, 02:38:32 05/20/03 Tue

Thanks Rad, nice to know I'm not alone in all of this! I don't know, I guess this means that my Buffy addiction is probably terminal, but I keep getting struck by a strange sense of surreality: like this season isn't real, or ME is going to suddenly turn around and say: hey, gotcha, here's the REAL season seven.

Too many things just haven't felt right...

Charisma Carpenter ad -- starlightMint, 23:42:36 05/19/03 Mon

Hey all,

The fans of Charisma Carpenter would like to show our appreciation and gratitude for giving us seven wonderful years as Cordelia Chase by publishing a Thank You ad in Variety and/or The Hollywood Reporter.

At the moment, we are looking for further contributions towards the cost of publishing these ads and would like to enlist the help of other fans. A PayPal account has been set up for fans to donate to. Any amount would be a huge help and very gratefully received. In just 24 hours $1000 has already been raised.

To contribute please stop by and donate through the link button at the bottom of the page. For further information and updates feel free to stop by the Team Cordy forum, where you can also find other ways to support Charisma Carpenter and Cordy.

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

I feel sad -- Mackenzie, 07:35:37 05/20/03 Tue

I am so sad about tonight. I can't belive it's over. I want to cry. I had to get that out, I am a closet Buffy fan in my life so no one understands my pain.

[> Re: I feel sad -- ANDREA, 08:01:43 05/20/03 Tue

well i understand your pain except for me it doesn't end yet, but still knowing it is actually ending tonight is pretty overwhelming cos i am too a lonley fan . so if you ever wat to talk im here for you.

hey im proud of me,i havent read the sumaries of the las 3 episodes, so i will be unspoiled by the time i get to watch the finale.

[> I feel hysterically giddy -- ponygirl, 08:51:35 05/20/03 Tue

If I weren't at work, with this cursed lot of the unconverted, I'd be running around in circles like a demented Irish Setter. I'm dashing off in a few minutes to buy chocolate prizes for my finale guests, later I have to print off my season 7 quiz, do up a death chart, buy snacks, and fire up the blender for some apocalyptic margaritas. By the time the finale rolls around I fully expect to be collapsed on the floor in a weepy heap, but right now I'm riding the adrenaline wave, baby!

Good luck to everybody tonight! Oh and there's an interview with Joss up at

[> [> LOL. The end nighs. -- Sophist, 08:59:12 05/20/03 Tue

And the anticipation is nervewracking. How am I supposed to focus on writing a stupid brief to the Supreme Court when something much more important is about to happen?

[> [> [> Imagine trying to correct problems with students' grades. What trivia! -- mamcu, 09:57:53 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> LOL, glad to see you have your priorities right, Sophist -- fidhle, 11:57:57 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> Death chart? Are you doing odds? -- dream, 09:05:49 05/20/03 Tue

I'm putting Anya at the top of my "likely to die" list, followed by Dawn, Andrew (but only if Anya doesn't), then Xander (ditto) and Amanda. Amanda is surely the most likable Potential, thereby maximizing the pain - and some of the Potentials will just have to die. I'm putting Spike, Giles, Buffy, and Faith on the "least likely to die" list, in that order, but most of that is based on speculation/spoilage regarding future possible spin-offs, movies, etc., not a sense of internal logic. Without outside influences, I would put Giles at the top of the death-heap, because a deathbed reconciliation would be in order, and he would represent the end of the old ways.

Of course, this being BtVS, people can certainly die and remain significant characters. Willow gets a "most likely to become a mystical being" point.

My other fan-friends are putting their death-money on Xander, Dawn or Andrew.

Everyone's forgotten about Wood, and no one seems to care if he dies anyway. Kennedy is expected to have "Tara II" insurance.

[> [> [> I'd bet against Dawn, personally. -- HonorH, 09:46:25 05/20/03 Tue

I mean, against Dawn dying. Giles represents the old; Dawn represents the new. She's Buffy's better, more innocent half, and the one person whose death would utterly devastate Buffy. I think Buffy's become more or less resigned that all the others might die, but she sent Dawn away for a reason. So I'd put Dawn in the "odds against" column.

I'm thinking Anya and Amanda are gonna bite it big time.

[> [> [> [> You may be right -- dream, 09:59:23 05/20/03 Tue

though I still think there's a shot that Dawn might be the one who makes the big heroic sacrifice. I'm much more inclined toward Anya, however, and I don't think it's likely both would die. So I'm with you on Anya and Amanda, with Dawn and Andrew/Amanda as second choice, and Xander if they really want to pull out all the stops.

[> [> [> [> [> My bet -- ponygirl, 10:49:55 05/20/03 Tue

I think Anya wrote her own death certificate with that "I love humans" speech. Conversely Andrew, by saying that he thinks he's not going to make it, guaranteed his longevity. Willow and Dawn are the only safe ones in my opinion. Even Spike may end up having one of those well-known ME dead-but-still-around deaths, and Buffy I'm thinking may have some sort of transformation/ascension that may not count as death for betting purposes but is still pretty major. Amanda's a good call though, I'm putting her on the chart!

[> [> [> i dunno(spoilers but maybe you already kew) -- ANDREA, 10:53:03 05/20/03 Tue

despite my efforts to stay unspoiled, last night on E! news live i saw buffy getting stab and falling down in the middle of a fight. i dont know what is exactly giong on in the show at this point, but all i can wish is that she doesnt die again.

im sad and waiting.

[> [> [> I've got my kittens on Caleb and the Turok-Han -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:16:31 05/20/03 Tue

And I'll walk on the wild side and say the First Evil, too.

[> [> Re: I feel hysterically giddy -- Metron, 09:47:05 05/20/03 Tue

I've been trying to sort out how I feel all morning, and as soon as I saw your posting subject, it just felt so RIGHT.

Hysterically giddy! Absolutely right on the mark.


[> Aww, don't be sad, sweetie! -- Marie, 09:00:28 05/20/03 Tue

Although it IS sad, I know, there's always 'Angel', and still nice folk here to talk to, and there'll always be the videos and DVDs...

Not much consolation is it? But some, I hope!


[> [> Thank you for the nice words -- Mackenzie, 10:09:50 05/20/03 Tue

You are right, I still have Angel. This is may be a pregnancy hormone thing?? Still, what is going to keep me happy next fall when I am too big to anything but watch TV? Everything else is just pathetic dribble compared to Angel and Buffy!

[> I know just how you feel. -- HonorH (offering hugs to all & sundry), 09:38:28 05/20/03 Tue

Feels like the end of an era, doesn't it? I'm looking forward to "Chosen", but it's hard to think about the fact that after it airs, there will be no new Buffy eps. Ever. I console myself with the fact that I've still got AtS eps to watch, but I'm not quite so emotionally invested in AtS as BtVS. It's just not the same.

Take heart, though: we've got a fabulous online support group right here.

[> [> Poem by Mary Oliver as parting gift to all -- mamcu, 10:18:14 05/20/03 Tue

Not that I am planning to leave the board, but I know some will drift away. When my yoga teacher read us this, I thought of Buffy, then of all of us:

The Journey

One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice----
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
"Mend my life!"
each voice cried.
But you didn't stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world
determined to do
the only thing you could do----
determined to save
the only life you could save.

--Mary Oliver

[> [> [> That was absolutely beautiful, mamcu. Thank you very much for posting it. -- WickedBuffy, 10:26:30 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> Now I am really going to cry *WAH!* Beautiful poem! -- Vesica, 11:02:26 05/20/03 Tue

Starting the reaction a little early! (Spoilers Chosen + AtS S5) -- Kitkat, 08:58:11 05/20/03 Tue

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Downloaded the episode this morning (I'm in the UK so that was a few hours ago now) and I can't wait any more! I have to get the initial reaction off my chest even if no-one relplies to the thread- I've got no-one else to share it with!

I was scared of watching the episode at first - what if it disappointed me? I couldn't bear it if I hated the last Buffy. But afterwards I heaved a sigh of relief - it was good. It was great!

Things I loved that are sticking in my mind-

* the message of female empowerment, from Buffy's method of killing Caleb, Willow's power, to the montage of potentials coming into their power - a real exploitative tearjerking moment and a great message to send to younger female viewers.
* the solution to share the power. kinda saw it coming, but what a great way to a) create a viable force to fight the bad guys and b) make Buffy realise and accept that she isn't alone.
* the B/A shippiness. Sometime, when she's done baking, he'll be waiting for her.
* The way they didn't make a big deal about Buffy sending Dawn away. After all of the debate on the board about what the First/Joyce told Dawn in CWDP, they undercut the moment completely. Brilliant.
* 'the earth is definitely doomed'. Nice link back to the first episode and the interaction of the original Scoobies. Rounded out the series.
* Some people have been critical of the time given to Wood in the episode, but I thought it was important - it wasn't time spent on Wood but on Faith. Wood is offering faith something she has never had - a loving relationship that isn't based on sex where the guy doesn't act like a jerk, something which freaked her out when she was in Buffy's body and slept with Riley. This wasn't about the Wood story, it was about closing (for the moment) the Faith story in a positive manner, giving her a hopeful future and showing how far she has come.
* the shout-out to slash fanfic. Buffy was getting into her little 'Spike and Angel wrestling in oil' fantasy wasn't she? Not that I blame her...
* The open road ahead of them - filled with possibilities
* Since EVERYONE knows Spike is going to AtS, the interesting question of how he will be brought back, who will bring him back, why, and how he will adjust to being brought back having made his final sacrifice. Makes the question of how Spike will fit into AtS a little more interesting. Will he be human? How will he cope with that? Also, they left vast potential for people to drop in to LA. Personally I'd love to see more of Dawn the watcher.
* Did anyone else notice chemistry at the end between Xander and Andrew? I thought they were going to throw themselves at each other. A sweet moment besides this - they both loved Anya in a way.
* The look on Buffy's face at the prospect of being 'normal', one of many Slayers, with the chance to live and be alive.
*Good bye Sunnydale! Must have been very cathartic for the gang to destroy the town.
* The fact that they didn't wrap up everything neatly. Still unanswered questions about the First, and still plenty of room for character development. Nice and open ended....


[> Ditto -- CaptainPugwash, 11:01:51 05/20/03 Tue

God bless Usenet etc.; I downloaded it this morning.

I enjoyed the Wood/Faith stuff - Wood's 'you're not all that' moment was hilarious. The deconstruction of the B/A fantasy and jealous vamp thing was great too...

It will be interesting to see how Spike returns; maybe he is in the amulet or something...

Anyway, I loved the way this episode managed to be serious and funny; its odd that BtVS should rediscover its self-mocking thang during the oh so serious final battle etc.

So hyped, so sad, and *so* paranoid right now! -- HonorH (a mass of churning emotions), 11:30:00 05/20/03 Tue

Hyped because Joss' final hour will no doubt be one Hellmouth of an episode.

Sad because, well, final.

Paranoid on several counts. First, because people are gonna die on the show, in all likelihood--people I like. Second, because I so don't want to run into spoilers. I'm not even making my usual rounds of FFN today because some of those kids tend to be careless about summary-description spoilers.

I need someone to hold my cyber-hand. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

Will you quit whining and help me with the hors d'oeuvres?

Honorificus is throwing a wild "all demons" finale party tonight. And no, H, I will not help you with cats' brains dip or entrail soup. Haven't you got minions for this kind of thing?

They're out buying the booze. Fine, then, just sit there in front of your computer screen, biting your nails and whimpering while you count down to the finale.

Sounds good to me. Later, folks!

[> I understand completely...I've jittery all day (but in a good sense) -- Alison (being even more obsessive about Buffy than usual), 12:16:58 05/20/03 Tue

[> EW gave the episode an A+ if that helps -- ponygirl, 12:18:05 05/20/03 Tue

I'm still bouncing off the walls. I just spent $40 on chocolate and am feeling guilty that I didn't bake a cake or something. My charts and quizzes are all printed, and I'm mentally going over tactful scenarios to get my friend who's bringing her 4 month old baby (!) tonight to watch the show in the bedroom and not in the living room with the non-breeders. All of my desire for spoilage is gone, my path is clear, I am in a hyper-spazzy state of anticipation... unfortunately I still have 2 hrs. of work left.

My one burning question - is this how Rob feels all the time? ;)

[> [> tee-hee -- dream, 12:27:01 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> ROFL - Rob's busy bidding on the PomPoms I think -- Dochawk, 13:07:50 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> Have you seen how much things are going for?!? -- dream, filling time until 8:00, 13:27:07 05/20/03 Tue

I mean, $1,000 for a vase! Not any special vase, not the Urn of Whatsit, just a vase! I thought I was obsessed!

[> [> [> [> This is a good sign (Angel S5 casting spoiler) -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:28:35 05/20/03 Tue

ME's been able to afford the biggest budget for a Buffy episode EVER for the finale (exactly how much, I'm not sure) because they're selling this stuff for thousands of dollars. Too bad Spike's gonna appear on Angel, otherwise they could have afforded $400,000 more of special effects by selling his jacket.

[> [> [> [> [> Read the Joss post about Oz I posted above - obviously they didn;t have enough money :( -- Dochawk, 16:04:53 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> wonder how much $ you could make auctioning off some of these posts. Or Posters. -- Cozener Feint, 14:45:33 05/20/03 Tue

Comparing BTVS Season Finale Arcs (no spoilers) -- Just George, 12:57:20 05/20/03 Tue

As a way to work off my anticipation for tonight's BTVS series finale, I decided to look back over the finale arcs of the previous seasons.

I define the finale arc as those episodes near the end of the season that resolve the central conflicts of the season. Some arcs are interrupted by filler episodes. I think this tends to defuse some of the energy of the final arc.

I got my base episode list from the BTVS Council of Watchers site. The list included quality ratings based on fan voting, so I left them on. I don't necessarily agree with the specific ratings, but in general I think most of the episodes rated over 8 are pretty darn good.

Without further ado, on the the finale arcs:

Season 1: Buffy vs. The Master

12 Prophecy Girl 8.67

Not really an arc, one episode with some buildup earlier in the season. Concentrated and effective.

Season 2: Buffy vs. Angelus

29 Passion 9.05
31 I Only Have Eyes for You 8.40
33 Becoming Part One 8.98
34 Becoming Part Two 9.39

The final arc is disjointed because two filler episodes (Killed By Death and Go Fish) interrupt the narrative flow. However the remaining 4 episodes are all very strong. Buffy killing resouled Angel to save the world is on a short list of the most powerful emotional moments in BTVS history.

Season 3: The Scoobies vs. The Mayor, Buffy vs. Faith

51 Enemies 8.30
52 Choices 7.90
54 Graduation Part One 8.60
55 Graduation Part Two 8.59

The final arc is slightly disjointed because a filler episode (The Prom) interrupts the narrative flow (even though I love The Prom!). The four remaining episodes are all strong. Buffy vs. Faith is on a short list of the best fight scenes in BTVS history. In my mind, the real emotional conflict of season 3 is Buffy vs. Faith. From that POV, the finale peaks one episode too early. The Mayor as a giant snake was not the most convincing special effect.

Season 4: Buffy vs. Adam, The Scoobies vs. The Initiative

75 New Moon Rising 8.20
76 The Yoko Factor 7.85
77 Primeval 7.78

The final arc is less satisfying than before because it was never clear to me what Adam's big plan is (beyond creating a hundred or so cyber demons). A step back from saving the world in Season 1-3. The emotional conflict is the Scoobies vs. themselves. The finale actually ends before the season does.

Season 5: Buffy vs. Glory

96 Intervention 8.19
97 Tough Love 7.63
98 Spiral 7.74
99 The Weight of the World 7.08
100 The Gift 8.71

A well constructed final arc with no interruptions and a bang up final fight scene. The final episode is very strong, with a sad but satisfying final image. However, the next to last episode is weak, and its two predecessors were only average or above. Also, the emotional conflict is a bit defuse in this arc, it is not really Buffy vs. Glory, but Buffy vs. herself.

Season 6: The Scoobies vs. Willow, Buffy vs. Warren

119 Seeing Red 8.24
120 Villains 7.82
121 Two to Go 8.44
122 Grave 8.44

A coherent final arc with no interruptions and a some exciting action scenes. The final two episodes are strong, but some of the effects (like the temple and end of the world effects) were less than convincing. Some feel that certain character's actions (Spike's assault on Buffy and Willow's attempt to end the world) were more for plot purposes than consistent extensions of the character's previous actions. I give the writers one out of two on this score (OK with Spike, dubious on Willow). The emotional impact is defuse. Buffy never effectively defeats Warren and Evil Willow is insufficiently foreshadowed to be a satisfying big bad.

Season 7: Buffy vs. The First

140 Dirty Girls 8.25
141 Empty Places 7.57
142 Touched 7.76
143 End of Days 8.34
144 Chosen ?

We'll know when we get there!

Have fun tonight!


Who guessed in Season 5 that Buffy would die? (And who's gonna die this time?) -- skyMatrix, 13:24:17 05/20/03 Tue

I figure that something unimaginable will happen tonight, mostly because I couldn't have ever imagined that Buffy would die in "The Gift." This makes me wonder if any of you eminently intelligent AtP denizens were able to deduce (WITHOUT spoilers of course!) that Buffy would die in that episode, and if so, how early on?

Also, Anneth wanted me to through in a question about who do you think will die tonight? She thought it might be Buffy again, while I argued that it's too familiar. Maybe if you didn't get it right in S5, you can get lucky tonight! I think I may have been spoiled, so I won't offer my guess. :P

[> Death (speccy for tonight) -- Anneth *hef hef* OmygawdIt'sReallyEnding *hef hef*, 14:02:17 05/20/03 Tue

"denial isn't a river in Egypt; it's my middle name!"

PonyGirl's DeathChart sub-thread is so interesting that it deserves two threads. IMHO. :)

Anyway, I came in to BtVS in early S6, so I already knew that Buffy died in The Gift (didn't stop me from getting weepy when I first saw the episode; doesn't stop me from getting mushy when I rewatch the episode). I am torn about whether or not Buffy will die tonight - on the one hand, she's already died several times; maybe Joss'll break new ground tonight by letting her live. On the other hand, her life has sucked 'beyond the telling of it' for three years now; maybe this time, she'll find permenant respite from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune... there's a part of me that hope she does. (I'm dead serious here - I was going over some early S6 last night, and it struck me anew how awful life has been for Buffy since the middle of S5.) Well, maybe she'll be able to give up her powers and live out her life as a normal person; that'd accomplish many of the same ends without the whole awful dying part in-between.

As for everyone else - I've had an elaborate conspiracy theory about Spike dying for months and months. (Joss pulls JM aside in early S7, tells him he's going to kill him off very messily and would JM please give lots of interveiws about how much he'd like to be in any spinoff so that it takes everyone by surprise when he dies?) Same with Giles. (Joss: "Muhahaha! I'll make up some story about a 'Ripper' spin-off so that when I kill Giles, everyone will be shocked and horrified! Yes!") Last night I became obsessed with the idea that Willow might die, but I think that came pretty much entirely from the fact that it ws 2 am and miserably hot and I couldn't sleep.

Um - sleep-deprived conspiray theories aside, I think Anya will die and Andrew won't. Anya because she had that revelation in EoD and Andrew because he keeps saying he will. For everyone else, I'm uncertain. I do imagine that one of the original Scoobies will kick the bucket, but I'm really at a loss to say which one. And I'm counting on a SiT massacre, of course!

Well, anyway, in honor of the last episode of Buffy ever ever ever, I have two bottles of cheap red wine, 10 new candles, and a fresh box of Kleenex at the ready. This is gonna be the best Buffy Night ever!

[> The Gift -- Vickie, 19:50:50 05/20/03 Tue

I never predicted that Buffy would die at the end of S5. I did think, when I heard Whedon saying "It's more traumatic, bigger than anyone could possibly expect" (paraphrase, not quote), that the only thing that qualified was Buffy's death. But I couldn't see how they could pull it off. I knew the show had been renewed.

Then the teaser. At the end of it, I said to my husband, "I think they're going to kill her. OH MY GOD, how are they going to manage this?"

And, of course, they did. In some ways, longest summer I ever spent.

[> [> Re: The Gift -- amber, 00:41:29 05/21/03 Wed

I actually got that Buffy was going to die in "The Gift", but mostly I chock that up to the fact that four years of studying to get a degree in Creative Writing taught me how to understand the clues writers like to drop as foreshadowing.

All through S5 I had an inkling that Buffy would die for Dawn, not sure which ep. tipped me off, but at the time there was a specific line of dialogue that did it. Can't remember what it is now though, so I'd have to go back and watch the whole season again to figure it out...

Anyway, in terms of the actual "The Gift" episode, when Buffy dusts the Vamp in the teaser then says (paraphrasing here) "Been a long time since I've met one that didn't know who I was." That line tipped me off, that this was it, that was her last vamp so to speak. Then further into the ep. when she tells Giles "I don't want to live in a world where these are the choices." That was it, the sinking moment when I just KNEW Joss was killing her.

I don't know, it's hard to explain. But there's just something in the style of the writing, that once you grasp the ME style you can predict certain things, not that that makes the Buffy eps. any less enjoyable. They're still great, even if you do have a bit of a sixth sense about the outcome.

GREAT Joss Interview about Season 4 DVDs--cool Restless stuff & more! (Season 4 spoilers only) -- Rob, 13:36:09 05/20/03 Tue

Joss Whedon Interview by Sarah Kuhn
The Buffy god chats about season 4, DVDs and the Cheese Man.

[Rob here! The very first part of this interview does have some extremely vague "Chosen" spoilers, mostly about theme rather than plot. So I inviso-texted that. Highlight it with your mouse if you want to read it. I'm totally spoiler-free, I read it, and it really is nothing. But I am well-aware that some people, myself included some times, want to hear nothing about an ep before it airs, so anyway...scroll down if you want to read the article which is ONLY season 4 spoilery. Highlight the empty space coming up if you want to read the beginning:

May 19, 2003 - As of this week, there is exactly one hour of Buffy the Vampire Slayer left to air. After seven seasons of stakings, slayings and sizzling human-on-vampire action, Joss Whedon's genre-twisting masterpiece is set to take its final bow. Whedon, for his part, promises plenty of epic-type stuff in the series finale. "We can expect full circle, for one thing," he says. "There are a lot of pay-offs and callbacks to the very beginning of the show. And more importantly, there's a statement about what we've been trying to do and what it means to be a Slayer and what the show has been about that I think is very powerful."

Naturally, there's at least one more thing you can count on.

"And I kill some people," Whedon says gleefully. Affecting a mellow surfer guy cadence, he jokingly adds: "Dude, it's fun! It's like a drug!"

The series finale of Buffy airs this Tuesday at 8 p.m. on UPN. Never fear, though -- Buffy Buffs can still get their fix via the magic of DVD. With season 4 set to hit stores on June 10, Whedon took a few minutes to answer some burning questions about the year of the show that had our Scooby Gang facing a terror even more daunting than all of the Big Bads combined: college.

IGN: Season 4 has the gang dealing with a lot of typical college-related problems -- you know, like the demon roommate who is obsessed to Celine Dion. Where did that one come from?

Joss Whedon: [Laughing] Oh, nobody's not had the demon roommate! And if they look deep into their hearts, nobody's not been the demon roommate -- which was the point of that show. Look, Buffy's becoming as obnoxious as she is! Because bad roommates come in pairs, they bring out the worst in each other. I, myself, became mortal enemies with more than a couple of my friends by living with them and, uh...I can't blame them entirely.

IGN: So what was the biggest challenge in transitioning the gang from high school to college?

Joss Whedon: The biggest challenge was, how do you keep your high school gang together without saying, "We're going to 90210 college now"? [You're] treading the line between the reality of the thing and the fact that you want to keep all your characters in the same place. Ultimately, the season became about how fragmented they got and the fact that they didn't all stay in the same place. That was sort of how we dealt with it, but that was the trickiest part. And also, you know, creating a giant government super-soldier conspiracy on a television budget, where we had, like, a wall and a shrub. Ooooh, it's James Bond with his wall and his shrub!

IGN: How did you pull that off? 'Cause it looked damn cool.

Joss Whedon: I'm glad it looked good. In my brain, it was always nine times bigger and people were rappelling from things for no reason. But we did find a couple of really big industrial spaces to give it some life and that was great fun, because those of us who have James Bond fantasies -- I'm not saying the entire staff did -- got to play with that a little bit and then blow it all up.

IGN: We also see some interesting development for Willow, what with the introduction of Tara. Did you always intend for their relationship to be romantic?

Joss Whedon: I always intended for their relationship to be romantic, I didn't necessarily know [that] I was going to come out and make them gay. I wanted it to be a very romantic, very physical, very charged kind of relationship, and when people saw that, the general feeling was that we were being coy. But the show deals in metaphor and there are a lot of girls who will go to college and have a very physical sort of relationship with somebody of the same sex -- and not just girls -- but not really go that way. You know, exploring. Just a lot of exploring! But then the reaction made us go, "OK, you know what? There's real chemistry between them, so why don't we just go the whole nine yards?" And we did!

IGN: And you know, when that started developing, I believe you mentioned something about "all gay, all naked Buffy." I think we're all still waiting for that.

Joss Whedon: My biggest regret. But you know, you can't have everything. I'm sure there's a fanfic somewhere.

IGN: I'm sure. This is also the season of one of Buffy's most ambitious episodes: "Hush." What was the inspiration for that?

Joss Whedon: A lot of things. The inspiration for the bad guys came out of...I saw Nosferatu as a tiny child. I just have always been afraid of bald smiling men who float! They just creep me out. And the inspiration for the episode...part of it came from my feeling that I had started to fall into a hackdom, if you will. I'd been directing for three years, I'd directed, like, ten Buffys, and I was sort of falling into a very predictable visual pattern, which is what TV mostly does. It's radio with faces. I thought if I had no dialogue, I would be forced to tell the story visually. I couldn't fall into over, over, two-shot, because there would be no such thing. I really thought I couldn't pull it off, to tell a story like that for that long. I thought either I wouldn't be able to write it, or once I did, people wouldn't be able to get it, or I wouldn't be able to convey it visually. It was sheer terror from start to finish and therefore the most fun imaginable. And then once I got started on it, I realized that what I had to talk about was communication and how words get in the way, as somebody once sang. When we stop talking, truths start coming out.

IGN: Speaking of "Hush," do you have those Gentlemen action figures? 'Cause those are really cool. One of them comes with a bloody heart and everything.

Joss Whedon: You know, I don't think I have any! Maybe I do in a box somewhere. Sometimes I get sent stuff, but sometimes I miss out. I don't have Anya in a bunny suit! I'm just sayin'. Those are very hard to get. Emma [Caulfield] had trouble getting one.

IGN: The season finale, "Restless," is also a change-of-pace sort of episode -- there's a lot of foreshadowing of things to come. Did you know when you were writing it how certain things in the dream sequences would pay off in the future?

Joss Whedon: Yes. We had been foreshadowing Dawn since the end of season 3 with that dream sequence. All of this was coming up to the fifth year and Buffy's death, and I knew that was where we were headed since the end of season 3, so it was easy to lay in a lot of stuff. The foreshadowing was fun, the episode was really there as a coda character statement about our characters and who they were, who they'd become and what they feared and what they desired. It's very few people's favorite, but it's one of my favorites in a big way, because I felt it captured a dream quality that I really haven't seen very often on TV and everything in it is very specific. It's the first poem I ever wrote. And when you write your first poem and it's 43 minutes long, it's an interesting experiment.

IGN: What about some of the more innocuous parts of it, like Spike and Giles believing they are father and son?

Joss Whedon: A lot of that stuff was very, very specific, and then some of it just felt right. But then we got to play... when we did "Tabula Rasa" in season 6, we said, "Oh, let's have Giles and Spike think they're father and son and put Spike in that outfit and then everybody will think we knew what we were doing a long time ago!" One of the great things about television is, you look back and you go, "Ooh, I can extract this and build upon it."

IGN: Speaking of "Restless," you've said time and time again that the Cheese Man means nothing, yet people continue to speculate. Does it weird you out that people obsess over every single aspect of certain episodes or are you like that as well?

Joss Whedon: Well, I am, somewhat. And the show is designed to make people obsessive. Ultimately, cheese may mean a great deal to other people. Part of a poem that's different than a straight-on narrative is you have to let the viewer bring some of themselves into it. I mean, you do that anyway, but you have to do it more specifically and tangibly. So if somebody sees the Cheese Man and it brings up a huge thing for them, that's totally valid. Whereas if we're doing an episode where Oz leaves Willow and they're both crying and people think it's about their socks, that's not so valid. But in a dream or a poem, the viewer is as much a part of it as we are. So if they want to analyze the Cheese Man, I say, "Go for it!" But he was specifically there with no meaning, because I always feel that in any good dream, any real dream, there's always one thing where you're just like, "This is about my mother, this is about my anxiety about work, that's just...what the hell was that? I'm not sure why the postman was a kangaroo."

IGN: Speaking of random, what happened to Giles' hot girlfriend, Olivia?

Joss Whedon: You know, I guess she just got too @#$%in' freaked out. I guess things just got too intense for her. She went back to England and she didn't visit her friend Rupert anymore. You know, floaty guys...I'm just sayin'. I wouldn't come back!

IGN: Now, one of the things I love most about DVDs are the commentary tracks. You've got a few on this set -- any revelations we can expect from them?

Joss Whedon: You know, revelations I don't think are in there. I just sort of try and talk about what the hell I was trying to do and what it was like to do it. It's not like there are any big surprises. I always feel like I'm The Mooooost Booooooring Maaaaaan Aliiiiiiiive. I'm the teacher in Ferris Bueller, going, "Anyone? Anyone?" They're not really surprising, they're just incredibly comprehensive. [Affects self-mocking tone] It's as though I think my stuff matters way more than it does! Maybe that's the surprise. He's even more pompous than we could possibly have imagined!

IGN: Any favorite DVDs you're watching right now?

Joss Whedon: Well, actually...this is really embarrassing. In the plane over here, I watched "Once More, With Feeling" [Buffy's musical episode] and "Objects in Space," which is a Firefly episode. So I've been watching mine. But Kai (my wife) and I have been watching The Matrix a lot, getting ready for the next one. We haven't been watching things as often because of the tiny child that we now have. Our last sort of catch-all multiple throw-on was Red Planet. We threw on Red Planet a number of times.

IGN: Anything else you want to say about DVDs? Or Buffy?

Joss Whedon: About Buffy? I'm so tired! About DVDs? They're so cool! And I think this season is the one that comes with my explanation as to why [the Buffy DVDs] are not letterboxed. Angel obviously is and Firefly will be, because...they were! Actually, Firefly wasn't onscreen, but we knew at that point that we were shooting for DVD, so we framed it like that, but we never did that with Buffy. And a lot of people were like, "Dude! It's not cinematic!" And I'm like, "It's not cinema!" It was made for old-school TV, and that's the way it's gonna stay.

[> Many thanks to your fingers, little typing fools -- Vickie, 14:20:56 05/20/03 Tue

[> The CheeseMan and his season 7 reappearance, a question to add to the unanswered question list -- Dochawk, 14:45:11 05/20/03 Tue

[> Thanks Rob! -- Eryn, 15:54:21 05/20/03 Tue

Guardians (spoiler End of Days) -- lunasea, 14:10:15 05/20/03 Tue

I don't want to talk about the finale. The show is about Buffy and her friends, not what Joss wants the show to do. Wayyyyy too much metanaration going on for me. His show, his final statement. I hope everyone enjoys it. I don't think that was spoilery. Someone yell at me if it was.

Instead I wanted to discuss the last mythic element that really held my attention, the Guardian. I liked her or at least the idea of her. The anti-male slant of the show lately has been over the top, but I like the idea of an earth mother looking out for Buffy and the other Slayers.

One thing I started going over after "Inside Out" was every instance of divine intervention on the two series. It plays out most frequently on Angel with the visions and on Buffy with various dreams. Now I don't think the dreams come from the PTB. They come from the Guardian.

Those dreams have helped and protected Buffy in many ways. They have saved her physically and emotionally. They have helped her fight evil and grow as a person. They would be a way the Guardian could be hidden and help Buffy. They would be a reason why the Guardian stayed around.

The Guardian could be the one that sucked Buffy into Angel's dreams in "Amends" in order to fight the First. The PTBs are probably still the ones that blocked out the sun, since they have shown such an interest in Angel and really aren't concerned about Buffy at all.

That was one thing I liked about the Guardian. Not only does she contrast with the Shadowmen who want to use the Slayer, but she contrasts with the PTBs that only see Buffy as an expendable warrior that is replaceable. The Guardian saw Buffy as a young woman and even asked her name. How many things ask Angel for his name? He is typically refered to as "Champion." I don't understand why she saw Buffy as so young though. She is 22. Most Slayers didn't even see their 18th Birthday. I am not liking how they seem to be regressing Buffy lately.

In "End Of Days" Caleb, the vessel of the First (I have to admit I really liked them joining), quickly kills the last Guardian. The First is first shown in "Amends." It wants Angel to kill Buffy (or Angel to kill himself, though we never find out why. I have my theories and until ME contradicts them, they are what I am going with). Buffy being in Angel's dreams is what prevents this. Not sure how Angel would have reacted to his dreams if Buffy wasn't there and Buffy wouldn't have know that Angel needed help.

The Guardian is dead, so she can no longer protect Buffy. Just in the nick-of-time, Angel shows up, the Angel that was saved by the Guardian's dreams. They briefly reunite in the temple of the Guardian. Since Angel and Buffy broke up, we have seen them kiss under a tree and now in the Guardian's temple.

It is even possible that the Guardian sent Angel the dream from Prom, to get him away from Buffy because Buffy wasn't yet ready for this sort of relationship. Angel was very important to her up to S3. He helped nurture her in ways that Giles couldn't as her Watcher. He got her strong enough that she could stand on her own. She needed to do this. Angel had to leave.

There are some other big Guardian dreams. In "Graduation Day" Buffy finds out the key to defeating the Mayor from Faith. The Guardian would be looking out for both these women. What would have happened to Faith, if the Mayor had succeeded? Faith's trip to the dark side would have been one-way. The dream tries to prepare Buffy for what is to come without ordering her around.

Another important set of dreams is the one in "Surprise" that warms Buffy about what is going to happen to Angel (Dru is a symbolic representation of the part of Buffy that "kills" Angel as well as warns her that Dru is still alive), the one following it that telss her to go to the warehouse and the one in "Innocence" that leads Buffy to figure out what happened. The Guardian cannot just tell Buffy things. Then she would be replacing the Watchers and just using the Slayer/ordering her around. The Guardian walks the same fine line that the non-Jasmine PTBs do.

In "Restless" Buffy's dream saves her friends AND helps her develop more. It really tries to get her ready for her next stage of development and to get her out of denial about certain things. The Slayer Spirit may have tried to get revenge on the Scoobies or taken the opportunity to do away with what it sees as liabilities, but the Guardian sent dream for Buffy tries to help Buffy. Tara did more than speak for the First Slayer. Tara is also a good earth mother.

Not sure if Joss meant to go this way, but it fits for me. I love creatively using the backstory. What are your thoughts on the Guardian?

[> Re: Guardians (spoiler End of Days) -- Eryn, 14:29:40 05/20/03 Tue

I liked the idea of the Guardians as well. With the FE in town and the Watchers defunct, I like that Buffy have a greater power on their side. I have always wondered where Buffy's dreams come from, and it's an interesting idea that the Guardians have been communicating with Slayers through dreams. I don't know if that will turn out to be the case, but it's certainly a possibility now that Guardians have been introduced.

When the Guardian first appeared I thought it was so great because though the Watchers have traditionally had the Slayers under their thumbs, the Guardians seem to be a little higher up on the whole hierarchy. When I thought about it longer, though, I realized that Buffy had already proven Slayers could function just fine without the Watchers, so nothing was really needed to trump the latter. Regardless, I still find the concept of the Guardians very intriguing.


[> [> Re: Guardians (spoiler End of Days) -- Eryn, 15:04:06 05/20/03 Tue

"With the FE in town and the Watchers defunct, I like that Buffy have a greater power on their side."

Need coffee. Of course I meant I liked that Buffy HAS a greater power on HER side.


[> Buffy's youth & spec -- HonorH, 14:55:59 05/20/03 Tue

I guess it all depends upon how you look at it. To me, pushing 30, 22 *is* young--especially to be raising a teenage "daughter" and waging a war. To a high schooler, not so much. To a Guardian who looks good for her ancient age? Again, young.

My personal speculation, which I will get out of the way before the finale: Willow will become the first of a new order of Guardians, along with Dawn and all the surviving Potentials, plus the first male Guardians: Xander, Giles, and Andrew. They'll integrate the male and the female and achieve balance at last.

[> [> Andrew? Really? -- Dochawk, 16:24:07 05/20/03 Tue

I think that Willow becoming the new Guardian makes so much sense that I can't believe I didn't think of it. Not sure about the others though

[> [> Re: Buffy's youth & spec -- MaeveRigan, 13:50:06 05/21/03 Wed

Agree that Willow's probably the next Guardian, but Dawn is "Watcher Junior," of course. No reason why there shouldn't be both Watchers and Guardians, really--but in this changed world, a world with more than one slayer, they should be able to cooperate, not try to evade or out-do each other.

[> Re: Guardians (spoiler End of Days) -- shambleau, 15:20:20 05/20/03 Tue

I'm a guy and I don't feel an anti-maleness message. Anti-patriarchal stance, ayup, that's there. There will be six guys on the show's last ep: Andrew, Spike, Angel, Xander, Giles and Wood. Between them, you get a whole range of types of manhood, and I don't feel that any of them are being atacked for being male.

[> [> Thanky, shambleau! -- HonorH, 15:31:55 05/20/03 Tue

I was just thinking that myself. Xander in particular has taken the more traditionally "female" role this year, and he's appeared not to mind in the slightest. As Buffy became harder and tried to make herself more calloused, he opened himself and became the comforter. That's not an anti-male stance; that's a pro-human stance. It shows that even strong women are capable of doing things wrong, and the most "manly" man can also be in touch with his emotions. Truth be told, Xander reminds me of no one so much as my sister's new husband, who's also a construction worker with a gentle soul.

As for the others, we've got Wood, who's conflicted and ambiguous; Andrew, also conflicted and ambiguous, but trying to redeem himself and actually doing a good job of it, in his small way; Giles, who's been the classic father-figure, but seems to have lost his way; and Spike, who has regained his soul and dedicated himself to supporting his ideal: Buffy. None of them are perfect, but all of them stand as a clear contrast to Caleb's over-the-top misogyny.

[> [> [> With HonorH &, shambleau! -- Briar Rose, 00:29:31 05/21/03 Wed

In fact that threw me in a post there at the top where some one mentioned that some form of "male bashing" was going on these last few eps....

I found these last few eps to be totally integrating the balance between strong men and strong women at last after a lot of eps worth of dividing the sexes into Chosen-capable and Chosen-not capable.

Especially the themes with Wood and Buffy and Faith, Spike and Buffy and Faith and Xander Buffy and Faith. Each of these interplays showed that strength is actually Power shared. Buffy seeks Spike to support and strengthen her so she can weild the Power for the right. Xander gives this same type of balance to both Buffy and Faith. So does Wood in his way, especially with Faith there at the end. He cracked her shell one final time.

The secret to strength in either sex is having the compliment of the opposite sex/partner to support, love and respect them. Yin and Yang. Strength comes from within, but it has to be supported from without in some way - otherwise it becomes POWER only. And Power is not the same as strength.

It's like when Willow seeks balance and grounding from Kennedy... All the POWER in the world won't make sure that absolute power doesn't corrupt absolutely. But strength, and especially the support and balance of the emotional opposite's energy can keep Strength from becoming simply Power and the ability to use Power.

That still didn't help me with Kennedy surviving, 'cause I really wanted her to understand Power vs. Strength before the final credits.*L But I'll give her the benefit since she did finally admit she's a spoiled brat, which I've thought all along.

I don't see it as anyone degenerating Buffy's age either.... It's more about relevance, since Buffy has been dealing with mystical beings who are ageless so much lately. Buffy is definitely young compared to the Guardian, the FE and the Shadowmen. Even Spike and Angel are ancient compared to Buffy.

Graduation Day, Part III -- Rook, 15:30:16 05/20/03 Tue

Just musing...if Buffy and co. had followed the normal course they expected their lives to take at the end of season 3, right now they would be graduating from college. So it is, in that respect at least, a perfect time for the series to end...It was about growing up, after all, and the HS and college years seems to be the right timeframe for such a story.

WIth that in mind, I rewatched GD I and II today, and found the Mayor's words in GD II seem as appropriate tonight as they did four years ago:

"It's been a long road getting here for you, for Sunnydale. There's been achievement, joy, good times, and there's been grief. There's been loss. Some people who should be here today aren't. But we are. Journey's end. Now what is a journey? Is it just distance traveled, time spent? No. It's what happens on the way. It's the things that shape you. At the end off the journey, you're not the same."

It's been seven years altogether, and I have to say the Mayor was right. As we close in on the end of things, what do I find myself remembering? The holes in Adam's plan? The retcon of Spike's stay in the initiative? The Troll Hammer that somehow became a God's Hammer while no one was looking?

No. Those are just the details. The distance traveled and time spent, if you will.

What I'll really be remembering are the big and small moments that made me think, that made me feel. The pain in Buffy's voice during her "I don't care speech" in PG...The overwhelming shock and sadness on Willow's face when she took Giles' call in Passion...The pregnant pause right before Faith and Buffy did what we'd be been waiting an entire season for them to do, and really started to throw down...Xander's "Oh God" When he saw Spike and Anya on the monitor..."Close your eyes."..."This isn't real, but I just want to feel."

"Live. For me."

These are the things that happened along the way, the things that shaped them, and shaped me, by extension. And I'd guess everyone on this board, in one way or another.

I think that over the few coming days there's going to be a tendency to jump right in with the analysis of S7, and judging by the recent traffic on the board, its shortcomings. It's the nature of the internet, I guess but I would just urge everyone to take a moment to look back over the past 7 years, and consider the whole of the journey, rather than its individual parts, and appreciate the things that happened along the way, the things that shaped you in some way.

Taking a moment....

And we're done.

[> Nice post! -- tomfool, 15:37:21 05/20/03 Tue

You've captured the way I feel at this point in time. Cheers!

[> Re: Graduation Day, Part III -- Maya, 15:49:06 05/20/03 Tue

Wow, your message was really meaningful to me, especially because I'm graduating from high school this year, in just three weeks. It just feels like the end of so many things for me all at once. The end of this show as well, seems to somehow correlate to the events in my life, just as it has for the past six years. Your words made me really sad but really comforted at the same time. Great post, thanks so much!


[> Re: Graduation Day, Part III (Spoilers) -- Rhys_Michael, 19:08:00 05/20/03 Tue

You hit the nail on the head.

I will miss this show. I will miss the time where I don't allow the world to intrude. I will miss leaving work a little bit early on Tuesdays. It will probably take a few weeks for me to remember that I don't have to leave work a bit early on Tuesday.

I cried when Anya died, when Buffy and Spike said goodbye I cried when Xander asked about Anya. and I did cry a bit when the credits rolled... the last time ever. I will probably mope for a few days.

I do agree with you I think that it would be a good idea for us all to look at the picture the show painted these last 7 years. And remember...

We love this show, we love the characters and the stories Joss and ME have told. It has been a compelling, surprising, thought provoking, powerful show.

It is over....
And I am sad

Thank goodness for you all. -- Maya, 16:16:34 05/20/03 Tue

To everyone here-

I know I don't post a whole lot, but I read this board like every day, and I just wanted you all to know how much it's meant to me. There's maybe one or two people at my school who watch Buffy as fanatically as me, but here at this board it's like obsessed fans from all over can finally find other people who UNDERSTAND what they're going through every Tuesday night! Reading all of your thoughtful, insightful, hilarious and touching posts has really enhanced the experience of the show for me and I just wanted to say, thanks...for existing.

I cannot believe it's all about to end. Is this really my last Tuesday afternoon spent not being able to think clearly or concentrate on anything else besides the upcoming episode of my favorite show? Is this the last time I'm going to sit upstairs, crying and/or screaming obscenities at my television because Joss did something mind-boggling to one of my favorite characters? (And you know, they're really ALL my favorite characters.) Is this the LAST TIME I'll get to see Buffy kicking ass and being strong and making me feel like I want to be strong too? That I COULD be strong, too?

The best part is, even though I know that not many people elsewhere in my life will understand what I'm feeling right now, you guys completely do! Thanks so much. I hope you all enjoy that last (oh god is it really possible!?) sacred hour tonight. Wow, 55 minutes left for you lucky East Coasters. I just wanted you to know that you've meant something to me. I think this board as meant something to everyone. WOW could I be any cheesier?!?! I'm going to go attempt to finish my cursed homework now. And for anyone else who's a little scared for the end--don't worry. Joss won't disappoint.


[> Adding a little Gouda to your cheese plate -- Dichotomy, 16:42:19 05/20/03 Tue

Ditto that, Maya! I rarely post but always check in regularly. I've been quite busy lately (doing something I never thought I'd do), so I've been here less than usual. But my fascination with Buffy, as well as all these fabulous posts, has remained constant. And I'm absolutely dreading and looking forward to tonight.

I'm so thankful that at least we'll have Angel for next season. And I can't wait for reactions to tonight.

You guys are all exceedingly awesome!

[> [> ATPoBtVS isn't going anywhere and I am glad for that.... -- Briar Rose, 23:59:44 05/20/03 Tue

Read more, post more and keep the board going strong!

For most of the time I watched Buffy (all 7 seasons) I had no one that understood my obsession with what they saw as a cheesy show based on one of the worst movies ever committed to film.

I thought I must be crazy to be so wrapped up in a flipping TV show. I wouldn't even discuss it with people after the first season and all the ragging I got for admitting to watching it. I started to feel like my friends were going to pull some Buffy Intervention on me if I didn't keep it to myself.*L

But this board chnaged a lot of that. For the first time I found other people who SAW the deeper meanings and theories and adages that I was seeing from the first episode.

So what if there is no such thing as agreement on WHAT those things were? It didn't matter, because each of us brought our own sense of experience and insight to it. And there was no such thing as a "wrong" answer.

This show inspires the inspirable in many different ways. All of a sudden I started to feel a little pity for those who couldn't understand it. It wasn't just me being some geek, there were tons of other people posting here that saw beneath the pop culture references and it wasn't me and them who were pitiable at all.*L

I like this place and I want to thank Masq for having it and keeping it around. It's a perfect place for everyone to expand their minds and learn about life, death and duty together!

[> [> [> Thanks! Yep--we ain't going nowhere -- Masq, 10:48:22 05/21/03 Wed

Lots of "Buffy" summer fun planned here as soon as the "Chosen" hoopla runs its course. We'll be dissecting episodes until we're old and gray (well, those of us who aren't old and gray already).

TROGDOR!!! -- Majin Gojira, 17:39:45 05/20/03 Tue

They mentioned TROGDOR! the BURNINATOR! w00t!

For those that don't know, he's a minor but popular character in the flash-animated series on this site:

I'm gitty with joy for this event...

[> Re: TROGDOR!!! -- Jesse, 00:18:33 05/21/03 Wed

I was psyched to hear the Trogdor ref. too! For those who don't know of the mighty Burninator, here's the cartoon where the he originated:

(other 'Strong Bad emails' can be found at )

And here's the Trogdor video game:

[> [> Re: ...and the Trogdor somes in the NIIIIIGGGHHHTTT!!! -- Liv, 05:16:44 05/21/03 Wed

Yay! That Trogdor reference served to ease a little of the pain of winning the death pool at our Buffy party. I was wondering how many people would get that!

FIY: Audio and transcript link to today's NPR end of BTVS feature. -- A8, 17:50:44 05/20/03 Tue

It was actually a very thoughtful discussion, although, at approximately 25 minutes, it could have been a little longer. Anyway you can hear audio or get a transcript of the show at the following address:

[> The Women's Studies professor's talk -- skyMatrix, 18:34:58 05/20/03 Tue

I'm a feminist but (don't you love senetences that start that way, especially when a man's writing them!) I couldn't believe what this person said. I know I defended a similarly simplistic critique of the show a few months ago, partly because it addressed racial issues which I believe are the true blind spot of the show, but this was just kinda ridiculous. I don't remember her name, but this Women's Studies prof asserted that Xena was inherently better because Lucy Lawless is a "big woman" (exact quote) and SMG is tiny and therefore fits out expectations as being suitably nonthreatening despite whatever slayage she might preform (maybe I don't have that quite right). She also said that Buffy mainfests her angry through pouting and sarcasm because young women aren't supposed to get angry. Ahem... Buffy actually has an anger problem, all you need do is look up Masq's "moral ambiguity of Buffy" page to see all the times where she's gotten really angry, perhaps a little too much on occasion! So it made me wonder how many episodes she's seen exactly? It seems a shame to have people writing papers on the show (as she seems to have done) who have barely seen any of it, when so many scholars are producing such vastly superior close readings of the entire text! Heck, I'm just a soon-to-be BA (no, not B/A lol) in English but I'm sure I could sit down and right a good dissertation on in instances in which Buffy falls short of a feminist message.

Yeah, this probably didn't deserve the rant it got, but the program frustrated me because the caller at the time, a guy named Andrew (haha), clearly wanted to respond and was denied by the host, and David Lavery, who I'm really starting to like, wasn't given the opportunity to respond, so her words ended up getting a degree of justification that they didn't deserve! Well honestly there have been a lot of good write-ups lately, so I'll try to let this one go. ;)

[> [> Re: The Women's Studies professor's talk -- Eryn, 19:25:05 05/20/03 Tue

I agree, skyMatrix. Her comments bothered me a lot, too. Whedon specifically wanted to depict the little, blonde woman who is traditionally terrorized in horror movies, ergo an actress like SMG was necessary. If I remember correcntly, the Women's Studies professor even acknowledged that this was the point of the show, and she still complained. I mean, if that's your concern, complain about all the movies, shows, etc that have bought into that stereotype instead of a show that cleverly subverts it.


"Favorite" (a freeverse poem for "Chosen") -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:34:38 05/20/03 Tue

My Favorite,
always my favorite.
I never watched with so much glee,
except with you.

I've cried with you,
I've laughed with you,
I've thought about you,
remembered more than sane men should.

Because you're my Favorite.

But the Favorite has died.
I watched it and I felt -

I'd seen the best, the brightest,
come before the end.
I'd seen the zany humor,
I'd seen the tragedy.

But, on looking back, I realize
the best is not yet to come,
and the best isn't here,
the best isn't the end.

So many times before it had been well.
So many times before it had been great.

I saw the indecision, and the resolve.

I saw the tragic stabbing of a love.

I saw the school united, to protect their own.

I saw her give her life.

I saw it all.

So when the end did finally come,
and I was expecting nought but the best,
it came but did not wow me,
I saw it but felt only -

So I cry. I cry. I weep. I dash my tears upon the rocks.

It's ended, and that which might have been
the best that ever was,
the best it ever made,
did not come to pass.

So I fear, that for many a dying day,
I'll think of my Favorite, and only remember being -

Hero's Journey redux, before and after viewing "Chosen." -- A8, 18:52:24 05/20/03 Tue

Some pre-finale viewing thoughts on Buffy and the Hero's journey with extensive quotation from Campbell. I've read the wildfeed, so I know what is going to transpire. With that in mind, some of the quotations below might be a little spoily, although you won't realize it until after you view the ep tonight. Knowing what I already know though, I do not think that the references to the Hero in Campbell should be confined to applying only to Buffy but to the whole of the Scoobies, associate members such as Anya, Spike, Faith, Angel and the S.I.T.'s inclusive.

I think the following excerpt from "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" is spot-on with respect to the big finale and the series as a whole:

"For the mythological hero is the champion not of things become but of things becoming; the dragon to be slain by him is precisely the monster of the status quo: Holdfast, the keeper of the past. From obscurity the hero emerges, but the enemy is great and conspicuous in the seat of power; he is the enemy, dragon, tyrant, because he turns to his own advantage the authority of his position. He is Holdfast not because he 'keeps' the past but because he 'keeps.'

The tyrant is proud, and therein resides in his doom. He is proud because he thinks of his strength as his own; thus he is in the clown role, as a mistaker of shadow for substance; it is his destiny to be tricked. The mythological hero, reappearing from the darkness that is the source of the shapes of the day, brings a knowledge of the secret of the tyrant's doom. With a gesture as simple as the pressing of a button, he annihilates the impressive configuration. The hero-deed is a continuous shattering of the crystallizations of the moment. the cycle rolls: mythology focuses on the growing point. Transformation, fluidity, not stubborn ponderosity, is the characteristic of the living God. The great figure of the moment exists only to be broken, cut into chunks, and scattered abroad. Briefly: the ogre-tyrant is the champion of the prodigious fact, the hero the champion of creative life.

The world period of the hero in human form begins only when villages and cities have expanded over the land. Many monsters remaining from primeval times still lurk in the outlying regions, and through malice or desperation these set themselves against the human community. They have to be cleared away. Furthermore, tyrants of human breed, usurping to themselves the goods of their neighbors, arise, and are the cause of widespread misery. These have to be suppressed. The elementary deeds of the hero are those of the clearing of the field."

After viewing "Chosen," tonight what do you think, especially with respect to Buffy as the "Slayer of the monster of the Status Quo" (and by "Status Quo" here, I am referring to the history of the Slayer, the source of her power, and the Watcher's historical restraint of her)?

[> Re: Hero's Journey redux, before and after viewing "Chosen." -- BMF, 23:11:44 05/20/03 Tue

To me, Buffy's greatest slay ever is the Status Quo you speak of. On one hand, it seems to initially fail, and Spike has to clean up the mess. But the long-term? Buffy has unleashed the greatest army in history, and I can't wait to see how that can be played out, be it in Angel, in comics, or in a spin-off.

[> Re: Hero's Journey redux, before and after viewing "Chosen." -- Michael, 10:27:35 05/21/03 Wed

Aarrggh! I can't believe I missed this! From Campbell: "The great figure of the moment exists only to be broken, cut into chunks, and scattered abroad."
Of course, it's what happens with every hero and every religious figure. Jesus at the Last Supper said "this is my body that is broken for you." The power is not manifest until it is shared. If it is "kept" then it cannot be used properly. The FE wanted to be flesh as a result of its wielding of power. Buffy understood that the only way to use the power properly was to share it. What she did was offer the power of the Eucharist to her disciples and as a result they were able to do the same things she was able to do. (Cast out demons and such- jeez, this stuff is so New Testament, it's not even funny, but then the NT is more or less an archetypal text.)
Wow, with this context it makes last night's episode that much more thrilling (literary nerd chortles in glee). So much about transformation and the source of real power.
Must hide now and contemplate more yummy thoughts.

[> [> Actually, I was thinkg more along the lines of a "Zen" thing. -- A8, 20:24:03 05/21/03 Wed

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of a "Zen" thing.

Like the Buddha, who attains enlightenment and then shares his knowledge thereby enabling those who choose to try to become as he, Buffy (with willow's essential help) shares her power thus enabling all the potentials throughout the world to become Slayers (how they ultimately choose to use the power will still be up to them). On the other hand, the Eucharist (IMHO) is an incomplete analogy since it only provides the means (or at least one of the many means, depending on your faith--forgive my oversimplification) by which those who choose to participate may bask in God's light, not to become Christs or Gods themselves.

Continuing with the "Eastern" philosophical analogy, Spike would be the yang to Buffy's yin in "Chosen." It is Spike's tortured condition from the beginning of S7 that evokes a sense of compassion in Buffy that had been missing since the SG brought her back from the grave in S6. It is that compassion that enables her to (somewhat) finally come to terms with Faith as a fellow Slayer, and to make the decision to break with the past by deciding to find a way to share her power with all the world's potentials. It is that compassion that inspires her defense of Spike's ensouled right to exist despite the vehement protestations of Giles, Wood and the others. Ultimately, it inspires her to admit that her once mortal enemy now has "a place in her heart" and to choose him as her champion in the battle against the FE. In turn, the amulet she bestows upon Spike enables him to release the light that had been trapped within the dead, dark shell of the vampire body. Spike's "sacrifice" (although for all we know he is stuck in some mystical dimension like Buffy was at the end of "The Gift") allows Buffy to return to the world of light and the living to continue her mission on the surface above.

The light from the dark, the dark from the above, so below....

Spike and Anya -- elabou, 20:23:27 05/20/03 Tue

Good bye Spike and Anya!

I will miss you both. I hope that both Spike and Anya went to heaven for their sacrifice.

I'm been crying for Buffy. I believe Buffy did really love Spike. I would hope that Spike knew that too before he died.

[> MAJOR SPOILERS FOR CHOSEN ABOVE -- Joie (d V), 21:12:46 05/20/03 Tue

Spike and consistency (spoilers for Chosen) -- Cheryl, 20:43:23 05/20/03 Tue

After being in tears for the last half hour of the show, I had to LOL when the Welcome to Sunnydale sign came down for the last time, thanks once again to Spike. Love the continuity - and there was lots of it in this episode.

Too many thoughts to be coherent right now but I'm looking forward to discussing the awesome episode. It was even better than I'd hoped.

[> It Was Pure Wheedonesque Genius -- frisby, 21:39:58 05/20/03 Tue

Not only Spike and the Sunnydale sign, but also Giles' comment, hearkening back to the end of the first season (or the first episode?) about Sunnydale being doomed because resting in the hands of Buffy and Willow and Xander. And the four of them talking before becoming uberbuffy. It was a great episode. That final scene!!!! What do we do now Buffy? What else? Change the world. Now that the female is empowered the sky is the limit. No more demons. Wonderful! I cried and cheered!

Thanks ME!

Beljoxa's Eye and questions regarding the plans of the First -- Nino, 21:19:31 05/20/03 Tue

I don't want to criticize "Chosen" because I loved it and i dont wanna be the whiny fan who complains...but i cant help but wonder, earlier this season when Beljoxa's Eye warned Anya (RIP...what a gory death...) and Giles that the First is striking becasue Buffy lives, what did this end up having to do with the First? Other then open the hell-mouth and wipe out the slayer line, what exactly was the First trying to do? Not that those aren't big ones, but if I am to believe that the First (introduced years ago in "Amends") is the biggest baddest evil of all time, I wanna is Buffy's life important, and what REALLY ties all these loose ends together? Please let me know...ill sleep much better knowing that I just missed something, but it was there all along.

[> The Answer to Your Question -- in my reading of the text. -- frisby, 21:35:09 05/20/03 Tue

The reason The First is stiking is because Buffy lives. If she is not stopped, then what will she do? The finale ends with the question "what do we do now Buffy?" What they do, all of those empowered females, is to rid the world of all of the vampires and demons and monsters and forces of darkness, such that, centuries later (as Joss reveals in "Fray"), most people doubt that there ever really were any demons. Through Buffy's empowerment of the female, humanity itself is radically changed. Buffy's life is THAT important. No longer will young girls be struck down and not fight back. And they will begin to excel at such things as sports. Etc Etc Etc. The First tried to change all that and prevent it from heppening, but failed. Buffy DID change the world. And she DID get her fire back (Spike). Spike saved the world, again -- will he be rewarded?

Great ultimate finale!!! Really Really Great!!! Genius!

[> Re: Beljoxa's Eye and questions regarding the plans of the First -- Malathustra, 21:39:58 05/20/03 Tue

The way I saw it, it was the whole two-slayers thing that created all the problems for evil. The FE was concerned (and, apparently, rightly so) that someone was going to sit up straight someday and say... "Wait! So, there's only one slayer line but there is more than one person on earth with the same powers!" That, ultimatley, was the realization that saved the world. That the slayer line was sacred. That the calling passed from girl to girl but that there was nothing to keep more than one person from having that kind of power at once. "It's about power," after all. "Who has it, and who doesn't." If TWO people have the same power without it being cut in half... what's to stop HUNDREDS of people from having it?

[> [> Re: Beljoxa's Eye and questions regarding the plans of the First -- Mightor, 21:51:43 05/20/03 Tue

Very possible that the existence of two slayers caused the imbalance that allowed the First in. Of course its also a dropped plot thread since we are only speculating. Strictly speaking, all the stuff about going after all the Potentials and Buffy when it was actually quite easy to open that door and let all the prehistoric vamps loose really makes no sense. The First obviously saw that eventually Buffy would figure out what the secret was and that there was no limit to how many slayers there could be at once as long as they were all worthy. But it would have made more sense to release the army first and then draw attention by going after Buffy and the Potentials in force.

[> [> [> I believe that answered the semi-eternal question.... -- Briar Rose, 23:39:28 05/20/03 Tue

Buffy was still the true Slayer.

Faith was also the true Slayer.

All the potentials were also capable of being the true Slayer with the right connections.

All at the same time.*S*

To take that to it's logical, philosophical statement: We are all capable of being the true Slayer in life. But we have to make the right connections and choose to use that power for it's true purpose. Even Spike was granted a role as a "Slayer" type, as was Andrew, Giles, Wood and Xander. Maybe the canon doesn't leave room for male "Slayers", but Chosen sure showed that no Slayer is complete without the strength gained from the men who love, respect and support her.

[> [> [> [> Okay, but let's talk ramifications... -- Tyreseus, 02:52:08 05/21/03 Wed

I get the empowerment message.

And I'd feel a whole lot better if it hadn't been for season 3. Slayers can go bad, too. Sure - the only one we've seen was redeemed, but...

There's no guidance anymore. No Watcher's Council, no Guardians, only Willow's ability to "feel them" out there.

So, I'm a young girl (I'm not, but this is a hypothetical, right) playing baseball one day when I suddenly get this strange feeling that tells me I'm super strong. I swing and knock the ball not just further than ever before, but I break the bat in half and no one ever finds that baseball. Later, my teammates (out of jealousy, probably) call me a freak and make fun of me. But I've got this feeling of power, so I punch one of them. I send her or him flying across the room. Y'know what, it felt good...

So, you see my point? ME could spin dozens of Tales of the Slayers into a new series with the scoobies (maybe, at least, Kennedy and Willow) travelling the globe to find and train and explain slayer-ness to all these newly-activated superhumans. Some have gone bad, some are scared, some are being analyzed in labs, some are trapped in fantasy delusions that they are comic book characters using their power to fight cat burgulars and mobsters (while wearing a Wonder Woman costume)...

Anyway, that's just my $0.02

[> [> [> [> [> The Victory of the First -- Darby, 05:42:13 05/21/03 Wed

It's about Power. Power Corrupts.

The world is doomed.

The same thing occurred to me - a world full of hot chicks with super-powers would probably be a very different place to live in a decade. The Buffyverse becomes a skewed version of the Marvelverse.

And what about Balance, and the consequences of magic? I don't think the residents of Cleveland will like the New World Order as all of this destroyed Evil and Emerged Good needs to be countered!

[> [> [> [> [> Season 3, Slayer training, etc. -- Malathustra, 06:37:25 05/21/03 Wed

I've only watched through it once, but my impression was that they fully intended on finding and helping out those other slayers. Giles kept talking about them having a lot of work to do.

But also, let's look at Season 3 because I see your point. Did Faith go bad because she had slayer power? Or did she go bad because she was confused about sharing that power with Buffy? Because she was never given the slayer respect that she deserved? One of the reasons I loved the episode where Buffy was kicked out of the house was exactly that -- Faith is no less a slayer than Buffy ever was, but she has NEVER gotten to be the leader. Ever.

In a lot of senses, Faith has never gotten to be The Slayer. Not until now. So, hopefully that whole non-competition thing will help these new girls to stay on target?

WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't." -- David Frisby, 21:44:35 05/20/03 Tue

I do not doubt for a moment that Joss knew what he was doing when he put those words ("No Buffy, you don't [love me].) in Spike's mouth. But why?

Perhaps Spike was acknowledging that he is the lover and she the beloved, knowing that is the very nature of love? (see Plato)

Simply to leave room for Buffy and Angel, in, who knows, fan literature or novels or whatever?

She DOES love him!!!! But why did Spike say that????

I need to know.

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't."(spoilers for Chosen) -- CW, 22:01:19 05/20/03 Tue

Just like Riley, Spike understood the truth. Buffy wasn't just giving Angel the brush off early in the episode, she was telling the truth. She wasn't in love with anyone and until she figured out who she is going to become, she doubted she will be.

Yes, she loved Spike but no more than Angel, Xander or Giles. It's not the kind of love that Spike always wanted. But, in that moment it was enough.

[> [> Absolutely Agree -- Darby, 05:53:07 05/21/03 Wed

[> Re: Irony (spoilers for Chosen, Are we still doing that?) -- Artemis, 22:04:39 05/20/03 Tue

I thought it was interesting that for all those times Spike says to Buffy "I love you" and she doesn't believe it . Here we have her saying the same thing and now he doesn't believe it.

[> [> "Someday, she'll tell you..." -- Just George, 22:07:52 05/20/03 Tue

[> [> [> Yes, prophecies are tricksy things! -- Indri, 22:39:59 05/20/03 Tue

The perfect irony. She says what he wants and he doesn't believe her.

[> Here's my $0.02... -- Kate, 22:10:10 05/20/03 Tue

I think Spike said it because he didn't need to hear those words from Buffy anymore. He already had what he needed from her - her belief in him ("Never Leave Me"). I think when Cassie says in "Help, "She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you," she was referring to Buffy's words in NLM (versus "Chosen"). She saw the change in him, the fight to be a better man. So with Buffy's unwavering and duly won belief in him, Spike was able to go on and do what he was meant to - to save the world. It was his time and his turn to be the champion. And like Buffy was able to be the champion she is because of Spike's strength and belief in her ("Touched"/"End of Days"), now vice versa can be said for Spike.

This doesn't mean there isn't love between them, imo anyway, but what they have is so much more than romantic love. They went through incredible changes and challenges together as well as because of one another, and through that journey they forged a pretty incredible (I think) relationship of which love is only one of its many characteristics.

[> [> I concur -- CaptainPugwash, 02:28:16 05/21/03 Wed

I concur; one of my favourite things about this ep. was the deconstruction on the B/A myth. You don't have to be a B/S shipper to see that Buffy & Spike simply have a mass of shared experiences. That is why last week's finale annoyed me so much; you can't just walk back into someone's life and obliterate all of the time that you haven't been there...

The demolition of Angel's ego was almost as funny as Wood's demolition of Faith's ego; the 'I'm prettier than you line' was wonderful!

[> [> [> Re: Wait a sec... -- Laura, 07:57:34 05/21/03 Wed

As Buffy said "I'm not done baking" so we really don't know who she'll end up with. Maybe Spike. Maybe Angel. Maybe (but not likely) someone else. As for the whole shared experiences, this doesn't mean Spike will end up with Buffy. For now this means they could date and at the very least be very good friends.... Barring that Spike is actually dead... er... deader.

[> [> [> [> Hold it right there! -- CaptainPugwash, 08:08:41 05/21/03 Wed

Heh - I'm not a B/S shipper (or any kind of shipper) and my post was only pitting Spike against Angel in an as-they-are-now sense. On that basis, shared experience beats absence by a country mile.

Buffy will probably end up with Angel in the long run (given that Spike's face is uncertain), but it will be on more substantial grounds than fan based first love drivel...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hold it right there! -- Laura, 12:10:21 05/21/03 Wed

Don't get me wrong I think a Spike/Buffy romance as well as a Angel/Buffy romance, though I prefer the second (I admit it is because I'm a more old-season fan).

As for drivel I get why you say that, but I also have read a few interviews of Boreanz and Gellar and they believe that their characters definitely still have feelings for each other. I guess it is a question of how much Buffy and Angel have changed and if they're still compatible which I think they're. While I think that is mainly because the changes seem similar. Also I know that Buffy and Angel have gone through a lot together. You can't dismiss their past love as a crush. I think they'll always love each other but it doesn't mean they'll end up together.

If Spike is still alive he and Buffy may eventually have a permanent relationship. (I'll cry my B/A heart out but I'll accept it and probably accept that Buffy and Spike will be happy together.)

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY ( spoilers for Angel casting ) -- cougar, 23:28:08 05/20/03 Tue

Maybe he still felt unworthy, but then again if he goes to Angel, and he thought Buffy loved him, he couldn't stay away from her.

[> [> SPOILERS FOR CHOSEN ABOVE TOO -- cougar, my head is spun, 23:30:34 05/20/03 Tue

[> Original title for this ep: "How Buffy Got Her Spark Back" -- RadiusRS, 00:51:00 05/21/03 Wed

[> Great Responses. Thanks! -- frisby, 05:14:23 05/21/03 Wed

Thanks. That really bothered me. I think CW hit it right though. Just as with Angel, she has realized she's not really a cookie ready to be loved, and Spike knows this, and tells her (no you don't) and thanks her for saying it anyway though. She "really" loves both Angel and Spike, and yet in another way, neither. As Spike said, Love's a funny thing.

Will Buffy and Spike meet again in fan fiction and novels? I believe so. Their love will last.

[> I think the best interpretation (Spoilers for Chosen) -- Sophist, 10:23:46 05/21/03 Wed

is that it was his way of saying "You can go, you don't need to stay here with me." Had he not said that, Buffy might have stayed. Instead, Spike was able to do what he said he wanted in Grave: Give her what she deserved.

[> [> Casablanca (Spoilers for Chosen) -- Caroline, 11:43:09 05/21/03 Wed

That scene really reminded me of Casablanca, where Rick tells Ilsa to go and live the life she's supposed to live. He sacrifices whatever happiness he may have with her for the greater good of the fight. Spike does the same - his sacrifice ensures that Buffy can live the life he wants her to live. He gets to 'rest in peace' and instead of dreaming that 'every night I save you' he actually does save her. He gave her a beautiful gift - thus Buffy's smile at the end.

[> [> [> Great analogy. -- Sophist, 12:39:28 05/21/03 Wed

[> [> [> Yes Great analogy Caroline, also.... -- Artemis, 15:34:37 05/21/03 Wed

I love the idea that SMG gave a smile that could mean many diferent things . One being that since Buffy has known "Heaven" She was smiling for the peace she knows Spike has achieved, as well as the Gift he gave which you mention and at the end she felt his soul. Of course their are those other little things like They survived an apocalyse, And she now has a future with possibilities. Don't want anyone to think its all about Spike.

Also wanted to say I have been loving your post and interpretaions.

[> [> [> "This could be the start..." (sp 7.22) -- Tchaikovsky, 17:04:55 05/21/03 Wed

The whole feeling I got reading the script was rather like the one I have watching the last section of 'Casablanca', for me the greatest movie ever made. So thanks for bringing that up. It's interesting to consider whether Joss was backing up what Rick was saying with the Slayer Equaliser thing: 'Three people's troubles don't mean a hill of beans in this crazy world'. Now the paradigm of Buffy is extended, past the one super-hero, to a world in which hundreds of girls continue in the fight. Not against Germany, but against something even more fundamental, evil, all corporeal and demon-y, and incorporeal and innate.

Which leaves me to consider the last little scene. Life goes on post Lasleau as Rick talks to his officer friend about being an incurable romantic and about their shady little dealings. 'This could be the start of a beautiful friendship'. For Buffy, is something simultaneously more personal and more communal. This is the start of a beautiful new life. Buffy gets to lead the life that she was always jealous of Dawn for having- the life of the 'not special, but extra-ordinary'. 'Potential' ties in well to the finale- although Buffy isn't now the one 'not chosen', she is no longer singular. Her power over the new awakening Slayers is exactly Xander's 'Seeing. Knowing'. With that smile of resolve, the precise complement to the smile of power after the confrontation in the Bronze in 'The Harvest', (hinted at by 'The earth is definitely doomed'), there's the ability to start concentrating on baking, and on renewing friendships which were becoming taut. In my mind, I see 7.23 as a re-set of 4.22, a video evening without the dreams, but with Andrew desperate to see a pirate DVD of the Matrix: Reloaded, and Xander in coy agreement, while Dawn gets the casting vote with Willow and Buffy in watching something brainy, not explicitly feminist and with that hint of the super-natural. That's right, they watch the new Season of Angel.


[> [> Re: I think the best interpretation (Spoilers for Chosen) -- sdev, 22:54:17 05/21/03 Wed

I agree. He said it to make her leave and get on with her life. It was much the same as Angel leaving (Season 3) so she could have a normal relationship with someone else. It was another selfless moment of the Spike redemption motif.

[> For the same reason they Killed Off Anya -- Spike Lover, 10:47:49 05/21/03 Wed

I am going to post above my thoughts about this last ep (ok, I am going to bitch about it), but the short version of why he said 'No you don't' is this...

This final ep did tie in with season 6. But it was heavy symbolism, weak on plot and character. The theme was "vanquishing your inner demon".

Buffy has lots of inner demons, but Spike's was pretty simple. He needed the love of a woman. (Mom, Dru, Buffy) He was 'Love's Bitch'. So when B finally told him that she loved him, he no longer needed her love. He was a complete, whole person, and it did not matter if she loved him or not. In fact, he was not going to crumble either way.

[> For the same reason they killed Anya -- Spike Lover, 11:12:23 05/21/03 Wed

I am going to post above my thoughts about this last ep (ok, I am going to bitch about it), but the short version of why he said 'No you don't' is this...

This final ep did tie in with season 6. But it was heavy symbolism, weak on plot and character. The theme was "vanquishing your inner demon".

Buffy has lots of inner demons, but Spike's was pretty simple. He needed the love of a woman. (Mom, Dru, Buffy) He was 'Love's Bitch'. So when B finally told him that she loved him, he no longer needed her love. He was a complete, whole person, and it did not matter if she loved him or not. In fact, he was not going to crumble either way.

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't." -- Rina, 11:29:50 05/21/03 Wed

Buffy doesn't really love Spike? Hmmm, maybe I was reading her body language and expressions wrong. Because the latter two were telling me otherwise. But then, Spike never believed that Buffy loved him.

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't." -- leslie, 11:31:35 05/21/03 Wed

Because he knows she's still half-baked.

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't."(spoilers) -- botitas, 12:11:06 05/21/03 Wed

IMHO...Spike realized that Buffy does not love him the way he loves Buffy. Remember, that Spike was a romantic even before becoming a Vamp. He's "love's Bitch" and admits it proudly. So, when Buffy says "I love You." He realizes that Buffy's love is not compareable to his. Spikes' love for Buffy comsumes him; it fills every vein and pore of his being and that form of love is beyond "cookie dough" Buffy.

[> Because -- dms, 13:19:44 05/21/03 Wed

while she felt love for him at particular moment, she doesn't love him.

JMO, of course

[> [> Re: Because -- Laura, 16:09:20 05/21/03 Wed

I'm sure she does love him, but it may be a friend-type of way.

[> Re: WHY DID SPIKE SAY TO BUFFY "No, you don't." -- qwert, 16:22:16 05/21/03 Wed

She DOES love him!!!!

Boy, do I disagree with this! The scene was obvious to me. Buffy giving Spike one last glinter of something good to take with him to his grave, Spike knowing what she was doing and calling her on it, Buffy not denying it, but looking on with a different kind of love as Spike saved the world.

He is in her heart-- but she definately has NEVER loved him in the sense we are speaking of here.

[> [> How many times do we have to go over this love question? -- queen of hearts (but not valentines), 21:15:06 05/21/03 Wed

Buffy loved Spike, OK. There are many types of love, just not all are of the roses-are-red variety or the googly-eyed B/A love or the all-consuming, burning love that Spike professed in S6. Buffy said Spike was in her "heart" - therefore she loved him. Does it really matter "how" she loved him? She loved him as much and as best she could. That's all anyone can do. And he seemed fine with it - and realistic about it - when she decided to actually give voice to her feelings. He said "no you don't" because he wanted her to go, to live so one of them "was living." (Remember in OMWF when he said/sang that she had to go on living so that one of them would be living?)

[> [> [> I agree. Well said. -- spaceclown, 22:16:14 05/21/03 Wed

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