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Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- shadowkat, 21:35:40 05/06/03 Tue

(I've gone out of my way NOT to include any future spoilers or promo spoilers. Just a little spec. PLEASE don't include future spoilers or promo spoilers in this thread. Thanks!!)

Before I start with my impressions of tonight's Buffy episode, I have a confession to make. I am hopelessly addicted to the discussion board. Part of me hopes every time I make a post, somewhat masochistically I might add, that no one will respond or all negatively - because then I can break my addiction. Go cold turkey. It actually worked one week - people responded so negatively that I was able to leave entirely for awhile, but then, dang it, I had to write this little essay and post it and everyone was so nice, I got addicted again. Because the addiction is to get instant gratification - to have someone connect to my writing and respond favorably to me. In a way it's a bit like what Buffy and Faith desire in tonight's episode. It's what we all want, if we're honest. To connect, to be appreciated, to get approval, to be loved, to be touched.


I've noticed some discussion on the boards of late regarding how fans respond to television shows. Whether we project our own views on to them. Whether we interact too much with the art. Over-identify with it. And whether the writers' views stated in interviews holds sway over our own interpretation and criticism of their art. Yet what is the purpose of doing art - to touch someone. To reach out and connect to a stranger, and for a brief mili-second, maybe more, find a way to make them feel a little of what goes on inside of us. To understand. To be touched. To meld. To not be cut off. We do it through electronic mediums like computers where we never see the faces of the other users or hear their real names. We do it through television shows. Books. Music. Plays. The world of the internet is particularly odd, since we edit so much of ourselves out, yet, yet - there's a part that remains, consciously or unconsciously, that reaches out and touches someone else. Sometimes enough to bring them out of hiding to respond. Whether their response is in anger, love, fury, compassion, disagreement, or celebration, we know by the fact that they responded a connection has been made and we've interacted. We touched.

I found a quote today from an essay by Dale E. Ewing Jr. (Film Noir Style and Content) - in which he quotes the 1970 book, Expanded Cinema, where critic Gene Youngblood discusses what the purpose of film is, stating "it is to broaden our spiritual horizons by extending the technical and aesthetic possibilities of the medium into new and exciting frontiers. But Youngblood insists that before this can happen the cinema must first do away with the traditional idea of film as escapist entertainment." Now I'm quoting this because I think this applies to television as well, particularly in a day and age where we are bombarded with commercialized escapist entertainment that asks little of us in return and does not touch us in the least.

This is what Youngblood says about commercial entertainment - and in case you are curious, I do not believe Btvs is commercial escapist entertainment even though we are bombarded by commercial breaks every ten minutes.

"Commercial entertainment works against art, exploits the alienation and boredom of the public, by perpetuating a system of conditioned response to formulas. Commercial entertainment not only isn't creative, it actually destroys the audience's ability to appreciate and participate in the creative process. To satisfy the profit motive, the commercial entertainer must give the audience what it expects, which is conditional on what it has been getting which is conditional on what it previously received, ad infintium."

Now if you want an example of "commercial entertainment" under this definition - I'm sure you can find it on any number of stations this evening. But you won't find it on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which week in and week out seldom gives us what we necessarily want or expect - nor does it provide answers or quickly resolve things. Heck I'm unspoiled and I can honestly state I haven't a clue what they'll do next. Oh I have theories, but there are too many possibilities for me to predict the ending. Btvs also demands our attention, demands we think about it and interact. A friend recently told me to get a single episode of Btvs - you needed at least twenty people - so you could examine all the layers and angles. Don't believe me? Check the internet, go to,,,,, and numerous other sites. Or check out which has more fanfic written on Buffy the Vampire Slayer than any other tv series, movie, or book out there. Joss Whedon has said in interviews, that he doesn't check ratings - he checks the internet to see how he's doing. People don't argue emotionally and objectively about commercial entertainment, they argue about art.


Okay off that soap-box.

Tonight's episode was interesting. Rebecca Rand Kirshner's best in a long while.

The FE is laying the groundwork for manifesting itself. It yearns to touch this world. It's been non-corporeal for so long. It is envious of Buffy and the SG who are touching each other. Caleb believes he's the FE's vessel. He keeps trying to touch the FE, to in a very odd way commune with and meld with the FE. But is he? Why is FE in Buffy's form? Why indeed?

The FE can't touch, at least not physically, but Caleb is right when he states the FE is in everyone, in all hearts. It is the rage we feel when we tear one another apart with words, or condescend to someone we feel is beneath us - for that is a type of touching too. Not all touching is positive. And people have been touching in tonight's episode. In all sorts of ways.

Faith's interaction with the SG as leader isn't going quite as well as she hoped. She feels out of her depth, but is keeping up a good front. One that her old Boss/Dad, the Mayor, is able to slice right through. Stating a buried truth, Faith has never been able to quite give voice to - she wants, desperately, for Buffy to love and accept her. To forgive her. Buffy. As she tells Wood - I want Buffy to be here. And when she decides to go after the arsenal with the potentials - she tells the four remaining members of the SG to check up on Buffy. The Mayor's words echo in her head. So for that matter do Spike's - he must have hit a sore spot when he accused her of taking Buffy's place.

Spike hits quite a few sore spots tonight. Uncomfortable truths? When he comes back with the information. Information he clearly understands better than Andrew, who has it all jumbled. The SG look nervously at him. They aren't quite sure how to deal with him. Their nervousness is telling - it may mean that somewhere deep inside they know they might have made a mistake? I don't know how to read it. At any rate Spike sees right through their lie. Why do you suppose they felt the need to lie to Spike, anyway? He calls them on it. "Friends? More like Bunch of Ungrateful Traitors! The number of times she has saved your lives. She died for you." When Giles attempts to cut him off, he hits Giles right where it hurts - "Yeah right...Rupert. You're upset because she surpassed you. You're no longer the big man."

Giles. I think Spike hit the nail on the head regarding Giles. Spike knows these people pretty well - he's been around them since S2. He's seen how they interact. Heck, he managed to breed discontent between them himself in Yoko Factor with few placed jabs.
But I'll get to what I think Spike's true role here is later. First Giles. In rewatching episodes from season 3 Btvs, most notably the Wish, tonight, I was reminded of how much of Giles' identity comes from his role as Buffy's Watcher. The General to the hands. When Faith takes over - he's in command again. He gets to tell Faith that she's doing a good job. And he gets to be in charge of interrogating the bringer - not Faith. He lets Faith lead, but she listens to his words of wisdom. Notice the grin on his face when he leaves Faith's room which used to be Buffy's and was once Joyce's, after telling her she's done a good job.

Spike after finally having his confrontation with Faith - they do a little touching in tonight's episode. She calls him on his feelings for Buffy. He calls her on hers. And our two Buffy shadows, fight each other to a stalemate. Neither winning. He leaves when she admits she has no clue where Buffy is. (Btw - Faith has loads of chemistry with Spike, probably just me, but I found her fight scene with Spike more interesting and hotter than sex with Wood. I'm sure that's just a personal thing.) Spike quickly hunts down Buffy and his interaction with Buffy is fascinating, particularly after seeing Lover's Walk again tonight. I truly believe Spike is Buffy's shadow or at least one of them. (I mean, I'm no psychologist, but can't we have two? One male and one female? The writers seem to think so.) He's been that since S2. I know there are people who strongly disagree with me on this. But I think it fits. He seems to empower her, to demonstrate things, to say what she wants desperately to be said. He tells her he'd kill Faith for her, all she has to do is say the word - and Buffy is able to finally release her own fears to him that by her word, another girl dies. That she's cut off from the world. That no one has ever connected to her. That they never did. That he only loves her because she's unattainable. (This is the most she's said since Holden's ironic, she tells Spike what she's feeling, her fears, but can't tell her friends...because they refused to listen? Or because she's afraid to tell them?) Anyways the unattainable comment pisses him off and he finally tells her how he feels, what he thinks. "I love you," he says "but not because I want you or expect anything from you or that you're unattainable, I love you because of what you are, what I've seen you do, I've seen the best and worst of you, and I know with perfect clarity that you are one hell of a woman. You are the one." (This isn't exact guys - I'm a horrible transcriber.) In a 100 plus years - he knows this, it's the one thing he's certain of. He also tells her - that she has let the others take her power from her. That she can get it back. That she is not a quitter. Never has been. He would know. And that she was right - the thing the FE is hiding is in the vineyard. Spike reaffirms Buffy's faith in herself as any good shadow would once you let it in. In this episode, Spike acts in the heart role -and the shadow role - he gives her encouragement. After letting Spike hold her, Buffy finally falls asleep in his arms and is empowered. She finally figures out how to beat Caleb at his own game.

Faith, Kennedy, and the others? Not so lucky. Oh they have a night of hot sex and loving and well, if you've been watching Btvs for any length of time - you got to know what that means. Sex = death. Cannon fodder. They touch, but do they? Really? Did Faith and Wood really connect? Did anyone who had sex - connect? Does Will love Kennedy? Does Xander love Anya? Does Faith love Wood? Ironically, I think the only two who connected were Spike and Buffy, who merely slept in each others arms. And odd comment on S6, where they never held each other. And on S3, where Buffy wanted Angel to hold her. The next morning, Faith gathers the troops. Wood asks what he can do, perked up by his hot night of passion with the slayer, and she tells him to wait by the phone. Ie. Do nothing. The five remaining SG, Xander, Willow, Anya, Dawn and Giles are told to retcon on Buffy but not let Buffy know it. Don't let her see them. Just figure out what she's up to. When they ask why, Faith covers, saying she's just concerned about Buffy is all.

(Oh an aside, not that I really feel that sorry for Giles, he's been a dip lately, but it is a tad unfair that of the adult SG he's the only one not getting any. No wonder he's cranky. Felt an overwhelming desire to Mary Sue myself in there and do it. Cuppa tea, cuppa tea...almost got shagged...cuppa tea..indeed. Wait not even that. Nasty writers. Beginning to understand why Head escaped to Manchild - he gets shagged on that show.)

Spike wakes up to an empty room and a note. Buffy left him a note? Wow. Color me impressed. She must actually care about him. Hmmm. Be hard not too, I'd melt if some guy gave me the speech Spike gave Buffy. Honestly, he may not be a thinker, but the man has a way with words. And yep it reminded me of Xander's speech in Dirty Girls. I honestly think Spike may be an extension of Xander, metaphorically here. The other who sees. They seem to switch roles. When one bows out, here comes the other. Now, how can Spike be both Buffy's shadow and a shadow to Xander, you ask? Got me. But isn't it cool that the writers are doing it? At any rate, I think out of all Buffy's boyfriends, Spike's speech of love and devotion was the most moving and empowering. Just my opinion. We each have our favorite speeches. That one is mine.

Meanwhile Faith and the potentials (can't tell, but did she take the whole lot?) are working their way beneath the seal to get the arsenal. They think the bringer told them where it was. So they go and unearth a bunch of weapons, then go deeper, to a coffin deep beneath the ground. At the same time that Buffy has entered the vineyard and gone after Caleb. And boy is she literally giving him a run for his money. Finally figured out the best way to fight him was to elude him. The FE fires Caleb up, appearing as Buffy, confusing him and frustrating him further. One wonders if the FE did it on purpose. Does the FE want Buffy to find the power? Buffy makes it through the vineyard's lower reaches just as Faith and gang open the coffin.

They find - a bomb. Buffy finds a sword. What is it with swords on these shows? Angel dreams of a sword in Awakenings. Buffy finds a sword and it's the ultimate power source in Touched. It also looks a lot like the sword she wielded in Becoming, which is making me wonder if maybe the finale is an inverse on Becoming and Graduation Day? Did the Graduation Day part - with Faith and the Potentials locating a bomb that explodes. Bye Bye Faith and Potentials - nice knowing you. (Actually I doubt they are dead. So if you are a potential fan? I wouldn't worry too much. If you aren't? Well ...right there with you. But they did learn a lesson. I hope. Ie. Faith ain't no better at this than Buffy.) Buffy on the other hand finds the source of power. She's hit pay dirt. Watch out Scooby Gange. Our girl is back.


Now I'm not sure Buffy finding this sword is a good thing. There is a reason the FE has worked so hard to split Buffy off from the girls. Lead Faith and the girls towards a bomb.
Told Faith that Buffy will destroy her. Told Dawn, assuming Joyce was the FE, that she'll be fighting against Buffy. Lead Wood to go to any length to get what he wanted, even if it meant using Giles to betray Buffy, so he can kill Spike. It wants Buffy alone. It wants Buffy to pick up the sword. It wants Buffy powerful. Why? What does the FE tell Caleb? It envies the people who can touch one another. And in whose form is it when it says these things? Buffy's. The FE wants to take over Buffy. Buffy has beaten death twice. Each time she feels more detached from everyone. Cut off. Buffy is denying the evil inside her and that evil is getting stronger. I think and I could be wrong about this that the First is gearing up to manifest in Buffy. And its been playing all the chess pieces to get Buffy in place.

Caleb - who leads Buffy to the vineyard with his words at the school and his relocation of the bringers to the arsenal gives her an advantage. The First manipulates him through his greed for power and arrogance. The First understands these emotions better than anyone. Also Caleb oddly enough is empowering the First...trying to reassure it. Making love to it with words???

Faith - who so desperately needs to prove herself. The First gets Faith to go off towards the arsenal taking the entire slayer line with her. Remember the line passes through Faith. Faith and everyone dies? End of the slayer. Buffy doesn't affect the line. So, if I were the First, I'd take out Faith and all the potentials in one shot. That leaves Buffy just where I want her. Dawn is a wildcard. Did anyone else notice that Dawn can read Turkish? When did that happen? She can read Summarian and Turkish? Here's the line: " Been reading an old Turkish Spell Book." Willow: "Oh I heard there was a translation of that recently done." Dawn (annoyed): "There's a translation of it?? And no one told me? Okay. I'm Over it." Everyone looks at her oddly and she fills the dead silence with her idea. Does this strike anyone else as really really odd? I'm wondering if the First knows what Dawn is. Or Spike for that matter. These two characters it attempted to grab in Lessons and keep under control. Spike in one room, insane, and Dawn fighting in another.

Dawn has helped the First, by kicking Buffy out of their house. (Part of me hopes Buffy comes back with the sword and kicks some serious butt in that house...but I digress). Spike has helped it by conveying the information regarding the power to Buffy. Telling her where it is. But...I'm wondering if there might not be a twist from these two coming up. Something tells me that Spike and Dawn may end up being the key. And whoa - will we do an inverse of The Gift as well?

Then there's the other three: Xander, Willow and Giles - who have done very little of late. What role do they play? Why hasn't the First come to Xander or Giles yet? Are they next? Or has it already accomplished what it wanted to with them - cutting them off from Buffy. So they are ostensibly where they were at the end of their Restless dreams and before Buffy's began. Sitting on a couch, somewhat wounded, being told to spy on their best friend by a rogue slayer?

And of course there's Wood and Andrew. I think Wood is going to be cannon fodder. (Actually I hope so...but am not counting on it, sigh.) Wood who continuously manipulates everyone and everything to his advantage. Yet still has no true power. And he said he lived in the center of town, which by the way is where the Bringers say they are from. What's up with that? I'm waiting to see if Wood has a purpose in this. Can't tell at the moment. Same with Andrew. Can't tell what they are gearing Andrew up for. Except that he's horrible at relating information.

To sum up...interesting episode. All about being touched. And not touched. And how we touch.

Not sure if any of the above made much sense. Mostly just my own opinion. Hope it added something to the discussion.

Thanks for reading.

Agree? Disagree?


[> There are Major Spoilers for Btvs 7.20 in above post! -- s'kat, 21:36:59 05/06/03 Tue

[> Re: Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- amanda lilly, 22:07:48 05/06/03 Tue

I agree with alot that you have said and I think you did an excellent job breaking down the meaning to the show. My only comment is this and it is not meant to offend anyone. Looking beyond the physical attractiveness of spike, I feel that in truth Buffy does truly care for him deeply, but she has not truly been in love with anyone since Angel. I never felt the love scenes between buffy and spike were romantic or touching. they were graphic and violent not sincere and loving. she just used him and he bought into anything to be with her. in the old episodes with angel, buffy use to sacrifice herself time and time again for angel. does she do this for spike. spike use to be a great character, but now he is a shorter, blonder version of Angel. If you go back and watch the first 2 seasons of Buffy which I have done recently, all you see is spike in the Angel character. couldn't they come up with some thing more original? the writters have never given spike the relationship to cheer for. this is a relationship you warn your best friend to stay out of. if she can't return his affection whole heartedly then she needs to set him free. just one final little note...I am truly tired of the gay willow thing. this show makes sure that they send out the message that you can't be happy unless you have someone. if you go more than a few months solo then you are an old hag... give me a break. thanks for the soap box. here is to these many years of buffy entertainment.

[> Re: Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- Dochawk, 23:32:24 05/06/03 Tue

SK: I agree with you, Spike and Faith have much more smoldering sexuality while fighting than Faith and Wood have.

[> [> Agreed. -- Doug, 09:08:39 05/07/03 Wed

The lack of Chemistry between Faith and Wood made their scenes absolutely painful to watch. I really didn't like the fact that the Faith/Spike fight was there; but the fight was technically very well done and is in fact hotter than the sex scenes in the episode.

I've got a rant about this episode building inside me, so I'll go away and try to suppress it before I say anything more.

[> [> [> Thanks, nice to know it's not just me on W. -- sk, 09:29:59 05/07/03 Wed

[> Don't count on that so soon, s'kat... -- Briar Rose, 00:16:22 05/07/03 Wed

Remember the line passes through Faith. Faith and everyone dies? End of the slayer. Buffy doesn't affect the line.

There is NO canon that this is true or ever was. It is still a very high possibility that because Faith turned rogue and Buffy continues to weild Slayer power in it's full force, that Faith is not the "real Slayer" and Buffy continues to be. Why else would Caleb be looking for Buffy and why else would Spike consider the warning of, "It is for her alone to weild" to mean Buffy.

Anyone who jumps to Faith being the "real" Slayer is ignoring the majority of the storyline for the last four years. Faith is at best sharing the power. But she is in no way the only "real" Slayer.

[> [> Re: Don't count on that so soon, s'kat... -- Dochawk, 00:35:27 05/07/03 Wed

ummmm, Buffy died. No new slayer. The line (not necessarily anything else) runs through Faith. That's explanation we are given by both Giles and by Joss. Now we can all interpet for ourselves what Joss puts on the screen, but the canon runs through him.

[> [> [> that we know of -- lunasea, 06:25:21 05/07/03 Wed

Joss can change his mind. He is like a woman in that regard :-)

They didn't know about Buffy right away either. I found it funny when Buffy refers to the Potentials as being like Faith and her. Buffy never was a Potential and I don't believe that Faith was either.

It makes them special in the line of slayers. These are two girls, now women, that the PTBs decided to go outside of the Potentials and their Watchers to choose. Were they even hidden mystically from whatever the Watchers Council uses to detect Potentials? It is an interesting area to explore.

Buffy isn't the slayer any more. Per "Restless" there isn't even a name for her. The Slayer is one component of Buffy, that shows up in a dream in "Get It Done," just like it did in "Restless."

The Eye says that the reason the First is here is because of "The Slayer." Is it because of the human form of Buffy Summer (or Faith) or is it something a bit more than that? Should the rest of Buffy have taken over the Slayer part at this point in the journey? Because it hasn't, it has given the First an opening to do something? Maybe.

More of my own interpretation, but Buffy is the longest Slayer. She has lasted 8 years. Most slayers either are killed by circumstances (such as really pointy teeth poking holes in them) or their death wish kills them. We have seen this twice, with Buffy in "FFL" and Faith in "Five by Five." Both women felt they were slipping over to the dark side (Faith would be past tense though) and were losing their humanity (again, Faith would be past tense). They wanted to die because the remaining humanity wouldn't allow the monster that the Slayer is to be released. They were too far gone to handle the Slayer, so time for her to be passed on.

Buffy has lasted 8 years and got over her death wish in FFL. The sun rise in "The Gift" means that she wasn't committing suicide in a fit of dispair. It was a beautiful triumphant moment. She even managed to climb out of the Grave. Why can the Slayer still assert itself so strongly?

Just an interesting area I hope ME explores with "Chosen"

[> [> [> Hmmm...the slayer line and the power -- S'Kat, 09:00:18 05/07/03 Wed

Thought about this...and well according to the information presented to us in Seasons 2-7, Faith is the one the line goes through:

Season 1 - Buffy dies for five minutes.

Season 2 - Kendra shows up, called, because Giles states -Buffy died.

Season 3 - Faith, Hope & Trick: Cordy says we have Faith because Buffy died, then Kendra did. It's when Kendra died that Faith is called. Buffy tells her Mom that she died and that's why. Actually no, it's because Kendra died. Faith was called in the spring - she states as much.

Season 4 Btvs and Season 1 Ats - point is made that the Council wants to not just capture but kill Faith. Why? Because until Faith dies - they don't get a new slayer and Faith is rogue at that point. This is implied.

Season 5 - Buffy dies.

Season 6 - Bargaining Part I - clearly no new slayer has been called and the SG is working overtime to convince everyone in Sunnydale and elsewhere that Buffy is still alive. The only other slayer being in a prison and they so don't want her back. So Willow resurrects Buffy. If a new slayer had been called this wouldn't have happened.

Season 7 - all these potentials show up. No one but Faith and Buffy have power. If the line still went through Buffy, then we'd have three slayers not two.

Now, I'm unspoiled - so it is possible that in the next two episodes - the writers will tell us that the line still goes through Buffy, but they haven't yet.

Now just because the "line" goes through Faith, that does not mean Buffy doesn't have power or isn't a slayer or not able to empower others with it. All the line means - is what happens when they die. Faith dies? Power passes. Buffy dies? Nothing appears to happen - according to The Gift and Bargaining.

But power? That's a whole different thing. And Buffy has it, in spades. She has so much of it - that she shares a bit with Willow. So the question you should be asking yourself, I think, is not what happens when Buffy dies anymore - but what happens if she lives and chooses to share that power? What does it mean that Buffy of all the slayers before her - is still alive ? What does it mean that she no longer directly effects the line?

Doesn't that make Buffy a bit more than just a slayer, just the "hands"? Faith is just a slayer, just the hands at this point. But what is Buffy? And why is the FE so fascinated with her? So fascinated in fact that it keeps taking on Buffy's form? And why do the writers keep having it do so-
to remind us that Buffy has died? Or to remind us of something else? I don't know. I'm just guessing.

[> [> [> Re: Don't count on that so soon, s'kat... -- Malandanza, 09:50:35 05/07/03 Wed

"ummmm, Buffy died. No new slayer. The line (not necessarily anything else) runs through Faith. That's explanation we are given by both Giles and by Joss. Now we can all interpet for ourselves what Joss puts on the screen, but the canon runs through him."

If Buffy and Faith really share the power, as Briar Rose suggests, perhaps it requires the death of both to call the next slayer -- which would solve my biggest complaint with the multiple slayer storyline -- that no slayer has ever been pulled back from death before Buffy. Plus, I think that at some point a watcher would have tested the theory -- bring his slayer to the very edge of death, then pull her back (mystically or through CPR or other advance) -- then repeat to build himself an army of slayers. The first job of every new recruit would be to die.

[> [> [> [> Malandaz hit it on the head, IMO. (spec, no actual spoils.) -- Briar (spoiled and loving it), 13:51:19 05/07/03 Wed

(dammit! lost the first post and it was better written, so please forgive the lack of form to follow. Note to self: Copy and paste from now on to defeat the Voynak!)

I think the arguements about Buffy not being the "real" Slayer or being out of the Slayer line are being based on things that aren't actually part of the storyline this season or last.

I am basing my arguement that Buffy is still a major holder of the Slayer lineage, with Faith possibly being the next in line (again) on three things:

1. Why is Buffy so important to the First and Caleb? If Buffy was truly no longer a major player in the Slayer line, then why not kill her and spend their time on Faith? Caleb has fought Buffy time and again and yet isn't hep to kill her. She is to be saved for later to impliment the final plan. The Bringers, as the First's minions, had no problem trying to have Faith killed in jail. So they must not be too worried about Faith calling another Slayer. That would be a bad move stratigically, IMO. Having an unknown Slayer running around while you're dealing with Buffy trying to stop your major plan? Nope. Faith appears to be an after thought for the First. IMO, it would be a stratgical nightmare for Caleb and the First to even think about killing Faith and riskig a new Slayer being called while they are dealing with Buffy in planning to complete the Ultimate Takeover. An unknown quotient housed in an unknown player running around with the potential to come to town just at the wrong time? Talk about poor planning! So they didn't care if Faith died. But they certainly care if Buffy dies too soon, don't they. We already heard as much from The First to Spike and the minions. 'She must not die. Yet.' Can't be Faith, because we already know that she was expendable. Might be the Key, but we don't know yet. It would appear to be Buffy as the most obvious one who needs to be kept alive. That only makes sense if she is directly responsible for the Slayer lneage and the First is aiming to take out that lineage for good.

2. Why is the connection between the Primitive and Buffy so strong? We keep seeing the First SLayer attached to Buffy in this season as well as before this season. If Buffy was not the most important SLayer in the line, why would the Primitive spend so much time and effort on her and not on Faith or another Potential? The Mud Men also accepted Buffy as the appropriate one to strengthen with the Primal power. Sure, they called her the "Guardian of the Hellmouth" and not the Slayer - but was it just because the show is BtVS that they didn't say, "What are YOU doing here. Send us the Active Slayer and go home little girl. You caused this problem in the first place 'cause you wouldn't stay dead." No. They accepted her immediatly even knowing that she was the major player in this drama with the First Evil.

3. The Bijoxa Eye said, "The Slayer" screwed up the Slayer lne. He did not say which Slayer. It could be that Faith is the Slayer who screwed up the line and not Buffy. Anya assumed it was Buffy. But we all know that Anya was having issues with Buffy all this season. Giles may have agreed, but he based the presumption on in complete data. My arguement for Faith actually being the one who wacked the Slayer line because she inherited the power from Kendra, who inherited it from Buffy. But Faith turned her back on the more untangible parts of the power. She took the strength and other physical abilities. But she turned away the soul and intellect that went with it by going bad. We do know that the Source of the Slayer power chooses it's own. This is precisely why Buffy was chosen without there being any knowledge by the CoW. The source chose her. So why could the source not decide to "re-choose" Buffy when the source's powers were not able to asimilate with Faith completely? The source could have easily decided that it fit better with Buffy than with anyone of the possible Potentials and didn't think it was a better option to seek an unknown. In doing so it left remnants of the power with Faith. Mostly physical abilities. But it could have sent the more intangible abilities back to Buffy. Faith hasn't shown the sixth sense Buffy does, nor the intellectual ability to plan as well. This may be the precise parts of the Slayer Source that asimilated so well with Buffy and why it returned. As I stated above: Shared Power. But Buffy is still the one who would pass on the lineage as the "real" Slayer.

[> Quick response on Screen Time -- neaux, 04:27:07 05/07/03 Wed

Just wanted to add that this episode worked well for me, because I thought each character had the right amount of screen time. And I know how hard it is to find that balance. There have been Episodes where Anya is no where to be found, Giles is gone somewhere and we dont know where.

But this episode was perfect in character balance. Just enough Andrew not to be too comical, and they somehow managed to all the major players something interesting to say. Cant wait for next week.

[> [> Re: Screen Time (Touched spoilers) -- skyMatrix, 10:02:53 05/07/03 Wed

Actually, I thought "Empty Places" did a better job as far as screen time goes. What did Anya say or do in this episode, besides Xander of course? (har har, I couldn't resist) Anya had two speeches last episode in comparison. Xander only had that little bit about the "ransom note," whereas last week he had that emotional scene with Willow at the hospital. I really loved this episode, but as for Scooby screen time I'm hoping that next week will serve us better. I'll be interested in seeing what transpires when Faith's "spies" find Buffy.

[> The Sword in the Stone (spoilers through 7.20) -- mamcu, 06:52:47 05/07/03 Wed

Great post! Agree too with almost everything--except that finding the sword is not a good thing. As many posts have pointed out, FE is so convoluted in its manipulation that it's hard to outguess it. Here are some arguments that finding the sword is ultimately going to lead to victory (all this is speculation, not spoils):

1. The whole point of the Spike/Andrew trip to Gilroy was the message that "it's for her, not you, to wield"--and this reportedly made Caleb very unhappy, so he must have seen that the sword had some special powers.

2. (Buffy's own argument) There was a reason that FE and Caleb wanted her NOT to go to the winery (OT: why do they call it a vineyard?)

3. Her ability to find it seems to arise from the insights into her own needs and vulnerability gained through her rejection by the group and her opening up to Spike. It would be weird for her to be making a big blunder at this point, when it appears that she has learned the lesson that earlier episodes set up as central.

4. She's also able to find it because she is finally using a different tactic against Caleb--she clearly can't overpower him, but she can outwit him, so she uses agility and quick responses instead of force.

5. She needed to be alone to find the sword--this is for her ALONE, another part of her chosen-ness. If she had come with the whole gang, someone held might have tried to grab it, etc.

Of course, the next episode will no doubt prove you right and me wrong...

[> [> Re: The Sword in the Stone (spoilers through 7.20) -- lunasea, 08:23:24 05/07/03 Wed

4. She's also able to find it because she is finally using a different tactic against Caleb--she clearly can't overpower him, but she can outwit him, so she uses agility and quick responses instead of force.

that just made me think of a line from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" "Truth is, I thought you'd be taller, or bigger muscles and all that. You're pretty spry, though."

I like it when Buffy can't just use brute force to solve things. Her moments of clarity come when this fails.

[> [> [> Remember who pulled the sword out? (spoilers through 7.20 & a Disney Movie) -- WickedBuffy, 09:00:53 05/07/03 Wed

... it wasn't the royalty everyone *thought* would become king - it was someone else, someone no one suspected.

::wondering if Dawn can pull it out::

and about that brute force... I KEEP saying that Buffy wields Calebs favorite weapon better than he does, if she just uses it - words - truth.

[> [> [> [> That's a thought! -- mamcu, 12:37:03 05/07/03 Wed

True, Arthur in the TH White/Disney version is not the heir apparent. So maybe it would be....Andrew?!? No, not possible--has to be for "her". Maybe some lesser Potential. But I think it's Buffy, anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> Yah, it probably maybe is Buffy. But mainly Thank you for acknowledging I had a thought. -- WickedLemonJuiceWriting :>, 14:22:23 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, that's one more than I have -- mamcu, 19:56:55 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Wine terms -- tomfool, 09:54:16 05/07/03 Wed

RE: ... to go to the winery (OT: why do they call it a vineyard?)

As a wine guy, it's been bugging me for the last few episodes that they're misusing this term. A vineyard is 'a planting of grapevines'. A building where wine is made is a winery. This is clearly where Caleb is hanging out - in the winery building.

I think the name on the winery building is 'Shadow Valley Vineyards' - get it? ... valley of the shadow of ... Nice touch. I understand that from a story perspective it makes no difference and 'vineyard' is probably a bit more lyrical than winery, but it's still an inaccurate use of language. Thank you for picking that nit.

And sk, thanks for your usual insightful first impressions.

[> [> [> Re: Wine terms -- Arethusa, 10:20:21 05/07/03 Wed

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

So that would make the axe a good thing, right? :)

[> Re: Touching -- Arethusa, 08:40:33 05/07/03 Wed

In "Apocalypse, Nowish" after returning from the higher dimension, Cordy says "I remember wanting to come back home. To be able to touch, to feel. To be human again." Fred says painful feelings are better than no feelings at all, and at times Buffy is afraid she can't feel anymore. Jasmine talks about how good it is to touch, to feel-anything. And now the FE says it envies those who can feel. Even the most supernatural of creatures want to feel, to connect. Is this need the most powerful thing in this or any other universe?

Does man exist because the gods were lonely?

I thought the First might be trying to manifest too, although I didn't get as far as thinking it wanted to manifest in Buffy. Why Buffy? Was part of it torn away to create the First Slayer, as someone suggested? (Sorry, can't remember who.) Does it seek to reconnect with a lost part of itself, out of a desire for more power, or just the need to feel whole?

I'm not sure about Dawn. I've bought a French/English dictionary just to translate a passage in a Dorothy Sayers book, and Latin/English dictionary to find out what all those Latin quotes I keep seeing in books are saying. Giles surely has Sumerian dictionaries. Maybe it's her emotional connection to Buffy that makes her of interest to the First.

Andrew. I think he's around so that someone we've grown to care about (if we do; many don't!) will die, and so that we can see even if we never atone for our evil deeds, our lives can be much richer for trying. For the first tme in his short, miserable life, Andrew is becoming connected to others, and even if they don't feel it, he does. He might be learning what Johnathan meant when he said that it doesn't matter if people like us back-being able to give friendship is as important as gettting it.

[> [> Beautifully said Arethusa. Thanks. -- s'kat, 09:11:15 05/07/03 Wed

[> Agree mostly, except... -- Rob, 08:56:37 05/07/03 Wed

"It wants Buffy to pick up the sword."

I got the impression that that is what the FE has been trying to keep Buffy away from, no the other way around.


[> [> 7.20 spoiler in my above post. Sorry. -- Rob, 08:57:46 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> I had, too, but skat may be on to something -- dream, 09:14:07 05/07/03 Wed

Why the heck would the FE start nagging Caleb during a fight - in Buffy's form, no less? He was clearly annoyed; it seemed to have thrown him off. Why would the FE want Caleb to fail? My thought is this - maybe the sword is "double-edged", so to speak. With it, Buffy gets POWER. But the use of the power is up to her. So the FE is done with Caleb, now it wants a super-powered Buffy to work with. Of course, that doesn't mean Buffy would be able to be influenced. That would put the FE part of the battle right into the spiritual realm, where it belongs. No ass-kicking here - Willow can take out Caleb, while Buffy undoes the First's plan through her spiritual, not her phsyical strength.

Unless, of course, it's not Buffy who is supposed to wield the weapon, it's Faith or Dawn or Amanda or someone. In which case, the First might be setting up a blow to Buffy's ego.

[> [> [> Remember who actually pulled the sword out of the stone in the story? -- WickedSquire, 09:51:00 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Remember ME likes to subvert these stories -- s'kat, 10:17:08 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> I don't gave me an uneasy feeling... -- s'kat, 09:21:48 05/07/03 Wed

"It wants Buffy to pick up the sword."

I got the impression that that is what the FE has been trying to keep Buffy away from, no the other way around.

I honestly don't know. The FE is confusing me. I just know that I felt an odd sense of unease when Buffy found that sword and grinned. And how the FE was manipulating Caleb - confusing him - seemed very odd. Wouldn't it do something else? Or is the FE incompetent? I don't think it is.

I hope I'm wrong about this. I hope her picking up the sword is a good thing.

The way I see it? There's several possibilities:

1. Picking up the sword give Buffy power and if she gives into the power - a la Bad Girls - where she had a similar grin on her face when she stole a sword - she gives into that part of herself the FE has power over and is a part of and it will corrupt her. The concept Power unchecked and unshared - corrupts.

2. Buffy chooses to use the sword to fight her war, but she doesn't let it overtake her, instead she chooses to share it with others, breaking the FE's hold. And together they shut the hellmouth.

3. Buffy struggles with the sword's power - and what it provides her - she can either let it make her all-powerful or she can share the power.

I just don't know. But the writers went to a lot of trouble to tell us that Buffy needs to share her power and not cut herself off from others. Also remember in Selfless she uses a sword to peirce Anyanka, but it is the combo of Xander/Willow who convince Anyanka to take back her wish and give up her power for greater good. So...if Buffy was supposed to be all powerful swashbuckler and save the day with the sword a la Becoming - why did they give us episodes such as Selfless and Him earlier in the year - where people are empowered by outside forces and must give them up? Wouldn't that run counter to that theme?

[> [> [> Good points. -- Rob, 09:28:11 05/07/03 Wed

I may just have been blinded by the shiny sword and the epic goosebumpy feeling I got seeing that scene, and the smile on Buffy's face, all leading to my feeling that "this is a good thing." Not that it definitely isn't yet, but you're right, ME may have wanted us to think "good thing" for the time being. Is it next Tuesday yet?


[> [> [> Re: I don't gave me an uneasy feeling... -- Plin, 09:37:34 05/07/03 Wed

Interestingly, Buffy/FE tells Caleb that he's the only man strong enough to act as its vessel. It may be that the time has come to try to "feel" by entering into a female vessel, the Slayer. Could the weapon (or its abuse) somehow act as a conduit for that?

[> [> Why is the FE even messing with it? -- Valheru, 11:03:06 05/07/03 Wed

In "Empty Places", Spike and Andrew find the inscription: "It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield." The monk tells of how Caleb threw a tantrum upon reading it. So why do Caleb and the FE dig the axe-y thing up? In "Touched", the FE says something like "You know what would happen if the Slayer or her girls finds it," to which Caleb replies, "Yes, but still, we must try everything." What's the point? Caleb doesn't trust that the inscription is true prophecy, but still, why court trouble? Because if the prophecy is true, Caleb has done Buffy a huge balance-tipping favor. There has to be something more to this, or else the First would be guilty of committing the most bone-headed mistake of the series.

[> [> [> Yep, That's what I keep thinking. -- s'kat, 14:34:06 05/07/03 Wed

There has to be something more to this, or else the First would be guilty of committing the most bone-headed mistake of the series.

My thoughts exactly. The FE literally leads Buffy to the dang thing and appears to make life easier for her by leading Faith and the potentials in the opposite direction.
Also am I the only one who thinks the FE got what it wanted with the SG kicked Buffy out? If it didn't, it certainly
has been bone-headed about things. Because everything it's done lead to what happened in Empty Places and Touched.
Also a side note - the episode Touched used to be called
Unlock the Power...not that that means anything.


[> [> [> [> and in EVEN FURTHER support of that thought (spolier Touched) -- WickedTivo, 20:23:14 05/07/03 Wed

Why did Caleb knock purposefully knock over the ONE and ONLY barrel that was blocking the OPEN trap door entrance?

Losing a fight for the first time, practically pointing the hole in the floor to Buffy ... what's going on?

And why is the FE starting to act like Buffy Summers the real person, not just the FE in a Buffy morph? Well, the less attractive Buffy traits... jealousy, peevishness, crankiness, spoiled about not getting what everyone else has....

[> Re: Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- ponygirl, 09:06:15 05/07/03 Wed

Great thoughts sk! I'm into the theory that the FE is seeking to manifest physically as Buffy too. What I found really interesting was the Mayor's assertion that the FE is not merely impersonating the dead, but rather is them on some level. Is the FE's desire for an end to its removed role from humanity, the desire for connection, mirroring on some level Buffy's own feelings?

Oh, and I liked Spike's speech too! But were you at all disturbed that it echoed Riley's "you're a hell of a woman" speech in AYW? A bit of an irony since it was this speech that gave Buffy the resolve to break things off with Spike? Or a belated justification of a not very popular episode? Or just the truth? But it did kind of pull me out of the scene a bit.

[> Re: Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- Kate, 11:10:30 05/07/03 Wed

shadowkat - were you pulling a "Willow" on me and reading my mind? That's very sneaky of you. lol

First, wanted to say great post regarding using art to make a connection and not making it all about mindless entertainment. That is *exactly* why I love 'Buffy' and why I have always loved 'Buffy' - each week it engages my brain and makes me THINK! I tune into television to be stimulated, not numbed, so it was just really nice to see someone else who feels that way. Most people I know personally are the opposite about their tv habits.

Second, while I think your overall post is fantastic and really well-thought out, the section that 'touched' me the most was in regards to Spike and Buffy and the connection they made in the episode through words and physical touching. My immediate thought after Spike climbed into bed with her and took Buffy in his arms was how striking their pose was to when Angel would just hold Buffy (as you mention as well) - the scenes that came to mind particularly were the end of "Choices" and the beginning of "The Prom." There was an almost innocence to the way Buffy and Spike were with each other that *was* more romantic and moving than all the disconnecting sex they had in S6. But that was as it should be because it shows how much each of them has grown as a person since last year and as a 'couple' (in that I mean they have a relationship, whether they end up as friends or lovers again). There was just something so comforting to see them holding each other so peacefully, not only as a contrast to the violence and chaos in their lives, but as a counter-image to the violence and chaos that dominated their relationship last year.

I also agree about the beauty of Spike's words to her. I mean my heart just melted right then and there and I am already a big fan of his so he'd didn't really need to be doing much more to win me over. lol But my love/lust for Spike aside , I actually saw a great deal of similarity to his words and Angel's words in "Helpless." In "Helpless" and in "Touched" Buffy has had her identity taken away from her - the one thing she feels gives her life merit - being the slayer. She even says as much to her mother in "Graduation Day." Paraphrasing her words, Buffy essentially tells her mother, she knows that she hasn't been the type of daughter her mother wanted - excelling at academics, being athletic, or being artistic -but there is one thing she can do better than anyone else - be the Slayer. She's not like Willow or Dawn who had a chance to learn to love knowledge or like Xander who had the freedom to be the jokester or to take the time to find himself and his place in the world or even like Cordelia who got to rule the school as Queen C or chose to be a half demon and carry the visions of the PTB, ever since she was fifteen, Buffy has had her life and her destiny laid out for her. The thing is, once she finally chose to embrace being a slayer fully, that's all she became. As Buffy said last night (paraphasing again), "Being a slayer made me different, but I allowed myself to stay that way." What I think Angel's words show her and Spike's even more was that she isn't just the Slayer. The Slayer is only a piece of the greater whole of Buffy Summers - a beautiful, strong, and caring woman who has 'touched' the lives of so many people and that is something everyone needs to be reminded of. The fact that it has been two vampires, with a soul, who've both been in love with her is not mere coincidence or plot device. I think Spike said it best during his speech - he (and Angel) has been around for a 100+ years, seen a lot and done a lot and has the wisdom of experience, granting him the ability to truly see Buffy for who she is.

So that's my additional $0.02 to your post! :)

[> [> Thank you. Lovely post. (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- s'kat, 14:04:19 05/07/03 Wed

And I agree with your comments regarding Spike and Angel.
It's nice to know I'm not the only Angel/Spike shipper on the board. With the current ship wars going on in fandom, us A/S shippers are a lonely group.

I think there is something empowering about a woman who has managed to cause not one but two 100+ year old vampires to love her and become empowered by her to seek a better path.

Well said. SK

[> [> [> No, thank you :)... (possible spoilers for 'Touched' and preview) -- Kate, 14:46:07 05/07/03 Wed

Thanks for your reply to my post. It's nice to get a response. :) And yeah, I agree about your comment on the 'shipper wars and those of us who appreciate both getting stuck in the middle.

You said my thoughts exactly, again. There is something incredibly empowering about a woman who has managed to get two 100+ year old vampires to love her and be empowered by this love and by simply knowing her. I think that 'the being in love with her' aspect of their feelings is a wonderfully romantic notion, but to think that this love and this woman actually made these 'worst of the worst' creatures want to "be a better man" for her is rather awe-inspiring.

[> Re: Touching art & First Impressions on Tonights Btvs (spoilers to Btvs 7.20) -- maddog, 12:10:54 05/07/03 Wed

Just a few comments. Overall that was excellent.

I think Willow and Kennedy have hit the point where they're not just having sex for the hell of it....not like the other two couples that did. This relationship feels real to me. And that's not to take away anything that happened with's just a different kind of relationship.

What she came across didn't look like a sword to me. Of course I've only watched it once(I'll review it tonight some time before Angel starts), but it looked more like an axe...but lighter. I know there's probably a specific name for it...most weapons have one.

As for your whole ending, while it makes sense, I'm left wondering a few things. Can the FE manifest in someone without their consent? Because we all know Buffy would tell it to go to hell if the FE tried. If it doesn't need consent then why hasn't the FE done so already? No, that theory has a few holes that I can't quite resolve yet to back you 100%. And as for finding the weapon, if you remember correctly the FE was trying to make sure Caleb protected it earlier in the show...didn't want the slayer to get to it. I'll say the same thing I said last week. I think Caleb's made his mistake. Notice when they had that talk about keeping the weapon safe that the FE was getting wanted to know when the slayer and company were coming. I think they assumed Buffy would come charging in...gung ho like last time. And she wanted in effect they did their job...problem is they didn't expect the others to defy her. So in a last ditch effort to put the hurt on the good guys the FE shows up to Faith and goads her into striking now. Figuring that Buffy alone can't beat Caleb and get to the weapon...again, another miscalculation.

The Scythe in Fray and Buffy.....spoilers for Fray issues 1-7 & Buffy -- Rufus, 21:42:55 05/06/03 Tue

The Scythe in Fray and Buffy

For those of you who don't read Fray I'll give a bit of background info that you may find of some interest.
Melaka Fray is a girl who lives in the future, a few hundred years after the last magic and demons were bannished from the earth reality. And the Earth has become a hell of mans making. Pollution has caused many people to Melaka's boss Gunthar who resides in a very large fish tank....oh yeah Melaka is a thief, and she has no idea what a slayer is.

The first issue starts with a small red creature, demon running into a chamber to talk to something.....

Red: "She is discovered"

?: We're certain it's she?

Red: No one has been called for two hundred years, the signs are dim.

Red: Never the less, the Watchers have found her as well.

?: The Watchers are lunatics and fools!

?: They mean to approach her to begin the cycle anew.

For those enjoying this season you already know that there have been references to Yeats who has a theory of history that goes in cycles, the order of things reversing at the end of a cycle. In Fray, there has been no need for a Slayer, til the time of Melaka cycle has ended and it seems that the demonic forces are trying their luck again to see if they can take back the earth for themselves.
A large "goat-like" demon Urkonn, is dispatched to find the Slayer....and he is in for a bit of a surprise. But first someone approaches Melaka on the street.......a person dripping with some sort of flamable liquid.....

Watcher: You...are the CHOSEN....I am not worthy to come before you. You will save us. You will protect us. End the scourge. You will cleanse us all.

The Watcher sets himself on fire and Melaka has to push him into a canal....she then goes to her room to find Urkonn there.....she aims a pistol at him.....

Urkonn: I am Urkonn of the D'Avvrus....bullets can't harm me.

Of course the pistol doesn't use bullets and Melaka fires at the stranger in her room....the very large stranger. They mix up a bit and he finally convinces her that he is not there to kill her. He then tries to tell her about her destiny........

Urkonn: In your dreams you're someone else....a slave, a princess, a girl in school in a sunlit city. In every dream you have great power In every dream you fight them....the ones you call Lurks.

Every slayer is psychically linked to those that came before. It has always been thus.
I am not of your my visage not strange to you?

Urkonn isn't the only one eyed chicklet in the world of the blind.....he pretty much fits in with the other mutants.....except the lurks. The human race thinks that the lurks are somehow a result of an infection unrelated to what was known as vampires. They don't know the true danger of what they allow to live in their underworld. There is a distinct difference in class structure....the Uppers have all the conveniences and those who are in the underclass live in areas that are dangerous....and ignored. Urkonn has to teach Melaka about what a Slayer is and he has to tell her the true nature of the Lurks....the demonic nature that is unknown to the world.

Urkonn: The Slayer is the Chosen one. The one who must stem the tide of the demonic......

In issue three of Fray, Urkonn gives Melaka a history lesson....

Urkonn: There was once a thing called magic. There were demons monsters beyond imagination, most of them pure evil. They ruled this dimension as they did so many others......Eventually, as mortal animals evolved, under the protection of certain mages and Loranites.....

Melaka asks what happened to the demons....

Urkonn: They left! All right? The demons, most of them, found more hospitable dimens......places, and left the earth to the mortals, for the most part.
Some remained, hidden away. Some bred within the human community, their power weakened throughout generations. Some assimilated...and some...infected.
It is not known when they first appeared...but the vampire were a plague. The elders of several villages met, calling for action. They invoked the strongest and most dangerous magicks they could summon, to create a power that could fight the vampires...A power that the body of a girl.

The history lesson continued...

Urkonn: She fought, and died and was succeeded by another, and annother, throughout time....always one.....always a woman. A warrior.
They were trained, sought out and guided by Watchers, descendants of the Shamans who created the First Slayer.

Urkonn tells Melaka what happened in the time the last Slayer was called before her...

Urkonn: What we know is this .....there was a battle. A Slayer possibly with some mystical allies, faced and apocalyptic army of demons...and then it was done.....they were all gone...all demons...all magicks, bannished from this earthly dimension..........

He then tells what he knows of the last Slayer......

Urkonn: I do not know if she lived. But, the demons being gone, she was the last to be called. The line continued...There were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained. Which may be why you have no memories of your heritage. The Council of Watchers fell to ruin. Held together only by fanatics and fools. Those that believed the demons would met your Watcher yesterday.

Melaka: You mean that guy that one that set himself on Fire?

Urkonn: Centuries of useless obsessive waiting, makes a human...

So we have Melaka, who is a thief, who steals things like amulets and totems for some creepy fishy type called Gunther. She meets a demon sent to this reality to prepare the Slayer to again begin the cycle anew...fight the battle against the demonic. But some demons have an interest in keeping the mortal world as it is, and we aren't totally sure why.....and I'm only up to issue six, the next few issues on hold til the end of Buffy......but there is something that you should know.....Melaka is a twin. She has a brother called Harth who was killed by a lurk/vampire called Icarus. At the end of issue four Melaka discovers her twin is alive(actually undead). He is the missing link in why Melaka has no Slayer dreams, no idea what vampires are. Harth, got the dreams, understood the destiny of the Slayer, and never ever told Melaka about them. When he was bitten, he knew instinctively what to do, and he bit back taking enough blood to become a vampire. He knows what vampires are and knows what they are to do. He is the one who is behind Gunther. He is the one who wants the amulet, the totem.....cause he is going to bring the old ones back. If you've been watching Angel, the collecting of the totems was what the Beast did to bring about the Rain of Fire. Harth wants more than fire he wants the Old Ones to take back what was once theirs.

Now, I finally will get to the scythe....the weapon is given to Melaka in issue six......

Urkonn: I have a gift for you.....It is a weapon forged eons ago, for the Slayer alone............lost for centuries. Carry it, for it is your sword and your septre. Let it proclaim you the Hero...and the monster..that you will need to be.

Issue six ends with Melaka off to fight her war.....
There is a few details in a short story in the comic Tales of the Slayer and it's about Melaka.The last story has Melaka Fray....fighting....

Melaka: Every slayer subconsciously inherits the memories of all the previous slayers.
Melaka is on a job, she carries the scythe given her in issue six of Fray. She opens a box and out springs a monkey like creature who grabs her weapon and leads her on a chase through the city.

Melaka: Thing is not human....actually demon of some kind. Stuck in that box for who knows how long ...and the creep recognised my scythe.
No way...scythe is my only connection to the whole slayer heritage thing. And it kills great.

They monkey creature leads Melaka to a place...a library with the emblem of the scythe on the floor......and there she finds the Watchers Diaries. She settles down to read....and discovers though she is alone in the world she is not alone in the spirit and the imagination.

Melaka: It's all here.....the battles, the tricks....the fears and the victories...all the girls, so different, who lived as I do. All of their stories are laid before me and hands are shaking.
I am the only one in the world....but I am not alone.

The symbolic nature of the scythe......

it should be observed that the thirteenth major arcanum of the Tarot, Death, depicts a scythe which cuts down not life but worldly illusions. This agrees perfectly with the symbolic meaning of the number Thirteen - the beginning, not the end of a cycle - and gives the implement positive properties showing it, in this context, to be the instrument which opens the door to the realm of true and invisible reality.. Penguin Dictionary of Symbols

Now that Buffy has seen the scythe, don't just think of it as a weapon that kills vampires, but something more. Remember that knife that Andrew was directed to kill Jonathon the words deep inside of Jonathon. And remember what the First said in Lessons

Cut to the basement. Spike is crouching on the floor with his arms wrapped around himself, rocking slightly.

SPIKE: I had a speech. I learned it all. (shakes his head) Oh, god, she won't understand, she won't understand.
He moves his arms to cover his head. Someone walks past him, pacing.

VOICE: Of course she won't understand, Sparky.
It's Warren. He stops behind Spike and addresses him.

WARREN: I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl! Sugar and spice and everything... (gestures dismissively) useless unless you're baking.

Spike listens, holding still now, staring at the ground.

WARREN: (walking forward) I'm more than that. More than flesh...

Warren morphs into Glory (Season 5 villain).

GLORY: ...more than blood. I'm ... you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me.
Spike watches her over his shoulder warily.

GLORY: Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips. Assuming their lips haven't been torn off.

Spike looks down at the floor again.

GLORY: But not just yet. That's all right though.
Glory paces forward again and morphs into Adam (Season 4 villain).

ADAM: I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. (turns) She's exactly where I want her to be. (looks down at Spike) And so are you, Number 17. (Spike looking wary) You're right where you belong.

Adam starts to kneel down, and morphs into Mayor Wilkins. He crouches next to Spike.

MAYOR: So what'd you think, you'd get your soul back and everything would be jim-dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel, why do you think I sold mine? (laughing) Well, you probably thought that ... you'd be your own man. And I respect that.

The Mayor lifts his hand to touch Spike's face.

MAYOR: But you-

DRUSILLA: -never will.

It's Drusilla's hand that caresses Spike's cheek as he continues to not look at her/it.

DRUSILLA: You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning. (leans closer, whispers) And that's where we're going.

Drusilla morphs into The Master, and he stands up again.

MASTER: Right back to the beginning. Not the bang ... not the word ... the true beginning.

He begins to pace again. Spike continues staring at the floor, hugging his knees.

MASTER: The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck ... if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. (scornfully) Tried to do what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right. Not about wrong.
The Master paces past Spike again. Close on Spike's face still staring at the floor.

Pan across Spike and back over. But now it's Buffy, standing there with her arms folded.

BUFFY: It's about power.

Better pay attention to that last's said by the First but looking like Buffy....cause Buffy has the power, and she hasn't been killed because she has what the First needs, wants, just like Glory, just like Dracula....they have all been there cause Buffy had some kind of power that they needed. All we have to do is find out exactly what that is.

[> The Symbolic Meaning of the Scythe and the Septre in Fray and Buffy..... spoilers for Fray and Buffy -- Rufus, 21:48:13 05/06/03 Tue

From: "LeoraRufus"
Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 2:55 am
Subject: The Scythe and Septre combined in Fray....spoilers for Fray and Buffy

We know that in Fray issue six, Melaka Fray is given a scythe as a weapon and these are the words said to her......

Urkonn: I have a gift for you.....It is a weapon forged eons ago, for the Slayer alone............lost for centuries. Carry it, for it is your sword and your septre. Let it proclaim you the Hero...and the monster..that you will need to be.

These words are important to what the significance of the scythe may be....remember the symbolic meaning of the scythe....

The Scythe is the symbolic tool "of time and death, which destroys all" (Herder's Dictionary of Symbols)

"it should be observed that the thirteenth major arcanum of the Tarot, Death, depicts a scythe which cuts down not life but worldly illusions. This agrees perfectly with the symbolic meaning of the number Thirteen - the beginning, not the end of a cycle - and gives the implement positive properties showing it, in this context, to be the instrument which opens the door to the realm of true and invisible reality.." From the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols

Now there is something interesting about the sceptre that must be known.....

A symbol of the highest power and majesty, it was often regarded as the carrier of divine powers. It was an attribute of deities and developed from the staff. Herders Dictionary of Symbols

Above all sceptres symbolize supreme authority, being small scale models of the ruler's staff. Being a pure vertical enables the sceptre to symbolize the individual as an individual, and the superiority of that individual in the office of ruler and, finally, the power received from on high.
In Greek tradition, sceptres symbolized the right to deliver judgement rather than the soldier's authority as such. In Rome, the sceptre was to become part of the panoply of the consuls.
Penguin dictionary of symbols.

This weapon that Melaka Fray is given is the scythe that Buffy has seen at the end of Touched. What is the most stiking thing about this weapon is that it has a functional and symbolic use. If you just look at it as a weapon it's use is simple, but consider the symbolic ramifications of the scythe/sceptre in Fray....."it is your sword and your sceptre" ... The scythe is a symbol of death and the beginning of a new cycle of life, and the scepter is a symbol of the power of deities, the symbol of one who passes judgement, and not just the judgement of a soldier on a battlefield....judgement on a more grand scale....and combined the scythe/sceptre is a gift that may hold the key to the Slayers power.....the Slayers essence.
Buffy has said that she is the law.....and this weapon she may be about to receive just may prove her right.

[> I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Sofdog, 22:05:54 05/06/03 Tue

Not nitpicking, just thinking. A scythe is for cutting long grass or grain. The Grim Reaper carries one, which is quite different from this thing.

However, in the first "Tales of the Slayer" short story collection, the first story - "A Good Run" - mentions that the Grecian Slayer, Thessily, keeps going back for her most prized weapon. It is referred to as a 'labrys' and fits the description of this weapon: an axe head fitted with a grip and a wooden stake fitted at the end of the handle.

[> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Rufus, 22:18:17 05/06/03 Tue

In Fray the weapon is called a scythe.....I think it will be in Buffy as well as it looks like the weapon in Fray and Tales of the Slayer. I don't think that the writers may be up on the names of curved blades, I think they went for the symbolic meaning of the scythe.

[> [> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Sofdog, 22:41:22 05/06/03 Tue

Good point about the symbolism of the word.

I can't find it referred to as anything but weapon in "Fray," but it is called scythe in the "Tales" graphic.

I'm sticking with labrys. "A Good Run" left a huge impression on me as a story.

[> [> [> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Rufus, 22:59:10 05/06/03 Tue

It is in Tales of the Slayer (page 3 of the last story in the collection) that Melaka directly calls her weapon a scythe (when a monkey like creature takes it) issue 7 of Fray a vampire (Icarus) calls it "A shiny new axe".

[> [> [> Probably right, but too bad -- mamcu, 07:57:12 05/07/03 Wed

The labrys is an Amazon weapon. I think it's been used in Xena. That would change the symbolism from harvest and death to female power and birth. Try googling "labrys"--you'll find goddess sites and even a midwifery publishing house. See

[> [> [> [> Why can't it be both? -- OnM, 08:10:09 05/07/03 Wed

*** That would change the symbolism from harvest and death to female power and birth. ***

Wouldn't that be typical of Joss? I suspect that the weapon metaphorically represents the spiritual balance that Buffy has been seeking.

Death is your Gift has always been an ambiguous statement.

[> [> [> [> [> Good point! -- mamcu, 08:40:20 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> And I believe... -- KdS, 16:36:38 05/07/03 Wed

... that the labrys is occasionally used as a lesbian symbol.

[> [> [> [> [> More than occasionally. It's just not as eye-appealing or famous as the rainbow. -- Sapphos DNA, 17:50:35 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: And I believe... -- Calamus, 02:25:15 05/08/03 Thu

On the comic book tip, it's the weapon of choice for a comic book icon whose primary activity consists of non-symbolic castration of misogynists, Hothaid Paisan.

[> [> [> Wine Dark Seas and Warm Crete (Vague Spoilers for last night's Touch-arific BtVS) -- fresne, 17:40:17 05/07/03 Wed

What it's called aside, I'm intrigued by the introduction of an axe weapon.

There has been complaint at times about the board's predilection for discussion of masculine symbols, penetrating teeth, thrusting stakes and whatnot.

Here now we have an axe. Labrys. Hopefully, to evoke the labyrinthine two-headed axe that others have mentioned. Minotaurs beneath the earth. Bull leapers. When the earth shakes, propiate the beast by pouring wine on the earth.

Weapon of earth mothers before they were chained below. A weapon of no thrust, but all slice. Opening. A weapon that kills. A weapon that can used in building. Well, perhaps, not that axe in particular, but a tool that is, in general, dual purposed. Like when you hold a hammer and you realize that it is both a tool and a well balanced weapon. The tin woodsman, who believes that he has no heart. Rusty red.

At this point I should do some research and discuss the symbolic significance of weaponry in horror films: guns that don't seem to kill anything, the castration metaphor in Slumber Party Massacre, the intriguing use of a hammer to kill in Hellraiser, but I'm not gunna. I'm still waiting for the promised Velveteen rabbit essay.

However, as a drive by, it's interesting that in Fray the axe is compared to a scepter and a sword, both somewhat, well, they're not feminine symbols of power is all I'm saying.

But a weapon that's all round curves and red. Mother's milk. This is a weapon for Kali grasped by stone.

I know there's speculation that some other than Buffy is she, but I hope not. I'm ready for epiphany and heady grasping of mythology and a whole can of whoop ass released by one little woman who smiled last night. Such a little smile, but so thrilling.

Like Preview Guest spoiler, I've missed that.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wine Dark Seas and Warm Crete (Vague Spoilers for last night's Touch-arific BtVS) -- Rufus, 21:29:21 05/07/03 Wed

However, as a drive by, it's interesting that in Fray the axe is compared to a scepter and a sword, both somewhat, well, they're not feminine symbols of power is all I'm saying.

Yes, I picked up on that right away....your sword and your sceptre.......

That meant to me that symbolically, Buffy has a sceptre, or divine symbol of absolute authority to judge (something we keep debating on in regular mortal terms)....and the sword to dispense that judgement.

[> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Vickie, 22:34:46 05/06/03 Tue

Properly, a labrys is a double-headed axe (as Thesilly's was) that was used (historically) more for ceremony and sacrifice than for warfare. Probably, we can cut some slack in the terminology and the actual form of the weapon.

If it's magical, maybe it shifts its shap to what it appropriate.

[> [> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Sofdog, 22:45:25 05/06/03 Tue

Hmm...I just reread the description and Thessily's wasn't double headed. It definitely states the opposite end is fitted with a wooden stake. (More on this in my second post above.)

Wherever did you find a definition of the word? I was only using my Webster's which doesn't list it.

[> [> [> [> Re: I think the Slayer's weapon is called a 'Labrys' -- Vickie, 08:05:53 05/07/03 Wed

I don't mean a head on both ends. I mean a head on either side of the front end (gads, my weapon terminology sucks). Kind of back-to-back half-moons, instead of the more usual one half moon and a little weight-balancing chunk of metal.

Anyway, the labrys was the ceremonial (and maybe warfare?) weapon of ancient Crete. That's where I get the term. It may have been used for other weapons since.

Thessily's weapon did have a stake for a haft. You are correct there.

[> [> [> [> [> Double-headed -- dub ;o), 11:50:13 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Re: 'A Good Run' -- Who authored this story? -- Robert, 16:39:35 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> Greg Rucka -- Sofdog, 19:49:51 05/07/03 Wed

Who I believe is a sometime tie-in author in the...Batman universe.

[> [> [> [> Greg Rucka wrote the first story 'A Good Run' from Tales of the Slayer vol 1 info inside -- Rufus, 21:56:29 05/07/03 Wed

From the end of the book with author info....

Greg Rucka is the author of seven novels, including five about bodyguard Atticus Kodiak and his companions. He is the author of several short-stories and comic books, and currently writes the adventures of Batman in Detective Comics, and the adventures of Tara Chase in Queen & Country. His favorite slayer is Faith.

[> [> [> [> [> Can his stories be considered canonical? -- Robert, 06:55:46 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> The Sickle and Scythe..... -- Rufus, 21:48:07 05/07/03 Wed

From The Dictionary of Symbolism by Hans Biedermann

sickle: This ancient harvest tool of prehistoric farming societies (dating from the Neolithic) was first made from flint; it later became a cult symbol, associated with the lunar crescent (see Moon). Curved SWORDS were often called sickles (e.g.), the weapon of the god Marduk, the tutelary deity of the city BABYLON). The god Cronos used a sickly to castrate the primeval god Uranus, before he himself was struck down by his son Zeus' (Jupiter) lightning, deposed, and banished. The sickle remained the attribute of Cronos (Latin Saturn), who must be viewed as a pre-Hellenic god of fertility. His name became confused with that of the personification of time (Chronus), who came to be portrayed with the sickle (or later scythe) as a reminder of the unrelenting flow of time. In this sense the sickle and the scythe became established as symbols of DEATH.

There is also a picture of a sickle-sword, insignia of Mangbettu King Munsa. Africa, 19th Century. p. 308

[> [> [> Further to the Sickle and Scythe...... -- Rufus, 22:25:51 05/07/03 Wed

From the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols.... by Jean Chevalier and Alain Gheerbrant translated by John Buchanan-Brown....

sickle: Because of its shape, the sickle is often compared with the crescent Moon and it has been the attribute of many agrarian deities such as Saturn and Silvanus. Curve weapons generally relate to lunar symbolism and to fertility. They are the mark of female nature.

The sickle may thus symbolize the harvest-cycle, self-renewing, and death and the hope of rebirth.........

The sickle is also the attribute of Death and Time, which destroys all things (see also SCYTHE). It was the implement which Cronos used to castrate his father, Ouranos (Uranus), to prevent untimely creation. In this context the sickle is the symbol of decisive resolve, of determined differentiation on the path of individual or collective evolution. It is the sign 'of temporal progress and of evolutionary necessity itself', the sprouting of the primeval see (DIES p.113).

The bipolarity of the symbol is patent. It signifies both death and harvest. Yet the harvest can be gathered only by cutting the stalk which, like some umbilical cord, links the grain to the earth which feeds it. Harvesting is condemning the grain to death either in the form of food or of seed-corn. 'If the grain of wheat die not....' This is why the sickle is the attribute both of Saturn and of Ceres.

Again from the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols.......

scythe: A symbol of death in so far as the scythe, like death, brings all things down to the same level. It was, however, only early in the fifteenth century that the scythe first started to be seen, when held by a SKELETON, as standing for the pitiless equalizer. In both Old and New Testaments it is the sickle which will be used to cut down the tares, not the scythe. It is, however, depicted as an instrument of punishment, and therefore one which chooses its victims, rather than the general instrument of death which strikes indiscriminately. Saturn, the old, lame god of time, is generally the one to handle sickle or scythe as the blind instrument which cuts down all living things. The change from SICKLE to scythe reflects the development of farm implements. Nevertheless it should be observed that the thirteenth major arcanum of the Tarot, Death, depicts a scythe which cuts down not life but worldly illusions. This agrees perfectly with the symbolic meaning of the number THIRTEEN - the beginning, not the end of a cycle - and gives the implement positive properties showing it, in this context, to be the unstrument which opens the door to the realm of true and invisible reality, the haqq of the Sufi.

[> Good post, Rufus. Thanks -- s'kat, 22:24:41 05/06/03 Tue

[> [> Are the spoilers for future Buffy episodes, or just last night? -- dream, 07:16:19 05/07/03 Wed

And how do you ask that directly below the post if you don't want to read the post?

[> [> [> Re: Are the spoilers for future Buffy episodes, or just last night? -- Rufus, 07:31:58 05/07/03 Wed

The spoilers are strictly for Touched using the information from the comic series Fray and the comic, Tales of the Slayer, specifically the last story written by Joss about Melaka Fray. But one other story stands out, the one by David Fury..The Glittering World, where we first meet Mayor Wilkins, the founder of Sunnydale.

In the last story of Tales, Melaka Fray chases a monkey like creature who makes her chase him to a skylight....when she looks down she sees a very large floor with the scythe inside a circle, and in that room are the diaries of the past Watchers.....Melaka gets to see that she is no longer alone...she has a history behind her. The last frame is of her reading about the other slayers.

[> [> [> [> The potential spoilage depends heavily on how closely linked Fray and BtVS are. -- OnM, 08:20:59 05/07/03 Wed

If they are closely linked, then Rufus' post could be very spoilery for the events of the next two eps.

Spoiler purists may therefore wish to avoid the main post above, although it does not spell out the actual ending of 7.22 in other than a speculative way. Rufus is walking a fine line here, so it's really a judgement call. I already knew of the Fray references to the weapon, so it wasn't spoilery for me, but others may feel very differently-- so please use your own judgement.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, I think I'll wait until it's all over. -- dream, 10:37:45 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The potential spoilage depends heavily on how closely linked Fray and BtVS are. -- Rufus, 18:31:24 05/07/03 Wed

Actually, I don't spell out the end at all. I use only terms used in the Buffyverse and the Comic that seems to be based around the Buffyverse....I use no term that Joss Whedon hasn't written himself in Fray, or what the writers of ME use in the show. Also, remember, Fray 8, isn't released til after the finale of Buffy even I don't know the end of that one, and the spoiler sources for the Buffyverse are working off a script that may be somewhat lacking in detail.

[> Fray and Buffy to pic of the scythe in Fray -- Rufus, 22:49:08 05/06/03 Tue

For those of you who can't see how Fray fits canon for Buffy read where I transcribed the creation of the Slayer..which fits the episode "Get it Done" the weapon we see at the end of "Touched" is the scythe from Fray.....

Any questions about Fray just ask.

[> [> It looks like a small bardiche... *spoilers* -- Corwin of Amber, 23:03:45 05/06/03 Tue

and she's holding it wrong. :)

The bardiche was an eastern european small poleaxe/large battleaxe. It's haft was about four feet long, with a crescent axe blade on one end and usually some sort of spike on the other.

It wouldn't be a very good weapon for someone the size of Buffy or Melaka...unless she inverted it, moving the mass of the blade close to her center of gravity. Then she could thrust with the spike (which seems to be a stake) and use the blade to punch/slash in close range.

I knew all those years of martial arts training would come in handy on this board some day.

[> [> [> Re: It looks like a small bardiche... *spoilers* -- CW, 06:16:33 05/07/03 Wed

I agree. It looks like a pole-axe head with not much of pole. I'm guessing Joss discovered that while 'scythe' sounds cool, and it is quite a dangerous farm implement, it makes a pretty awkward weapon.

[> [> [> [> Exactly -- dub ;o), 11:28:40 05/07/03 Wed

How many amateur scythe-wielders have accidentally taken off their own foot? (Not that I know any, of course...oh, and I have both my feet.)

Whatever was in that stone last night was no scythe that I've ever seen.


[> My scatter-brained thoughts on Buffy, the scythe, Fray (spoil on #7) and the belly of the beast. -- Lijdrec, 10:04:29 05/07/03 Wed

Like your thoughts, Rufus! But then we always have seen sort eye to eye.... and now a few of my own....


Call it what it materially is..... symbolically, it is a Scythe.

A Scythe is a symbol of death; of cutting life short; and of the final harvest... The Scythe is a symbol of the reaper. It is seen in the Tarot Card...

Death is sometimes smiling or sullen, cloaked or bare. In a few cases he is faceless (Herbal), openly menacing (Esoterico, Piatnik-Weine) or even gleeful (New Golden Dawn). As the Grim Reaper, he uses his scythe to harvest the life of old men and women, children, clergy, all in his path. The dismembered body parts of his victims are scattered at his feet. In some cases they seem to be sprouting from the ground, as though they are planted in the earth. This is one indication that the Grim Reaper is also a god of rebirth and regeneration; he reaps life in order to sow life. The Hebrew word assigned to this card is Nun (pronounced noon); as a noun it means "fish." As a verb, however, it means "to grow, to sprout." Therefore, the death figure in this card is representative of all gods and goddesses of regeneration. The scythe is also a symbol of the crescent moon, bringing to mind the waxing power of the Maiden aspect of the goddess and the waning, destructive aspect of the Crone.

THE element of rebirth is extremely important. Although change may come unexpectedly, it makes way for new opportunities. What "dies" might be anything from an outmoded way of thinking to a relationship. The scythe may be cutting away an old way of life, unnecessary ties to materialism, closed-mindedness, anything the questioner has outgrown, so that new energy can be dedicated to developing a new way of life, a new relationship, etc.

But the Death that Buffy brings is the ending of an existance to a creature not of this world. Will it also be a sort of rebirth, a resurrection of their souls, those undead people totally imbedded and involved in the material illusions of temporal form?

Eh.... still have the fixation of all those souls in the ether (or is there a Farmerian 'well of souls' in Lurky's cave?).

AND MORE on the fish theme... like.... Death is still her Gift...(just read Fray #7-spoiler)

The Scythe brings Death to daemons, her gift to the world. But the Death that she brings is also a Spiritual Transformation, both for herself and for all of those around her (the Scoobies). On many Tarot cards there is included a symbol of rebirth, often this is of a fish or a bird. The fish, is a representation in many religious systems of new life, eternal life, or rebirth. But fish are also a symbol of wisdom gained through trial. In the story of Jonah and the Whale (ok... not a fish, stretch it please!), Jonah is swallowed by the great fish and remains in his belly for three days. During this time Jonah undergoes a personal transformation and is then "reborn" when the whale vomits him up.

Now I just read Fray #7 and what did I see??? At the end of it Fray is swallowed by the Daemon-creature of the new Hellmouth that her brother, Harth, has re-opened. Jonah in the Whale... Melaka Fray in the Hellmouth Daemon-creature.... Could it be Buffy entering something.... entering into the Domain of the UberVamp. Entering through the Hellmouth into their Limbo that lies between our World and the Daemon-Hells. Going there to do battle with them, to reap their death with her Slayer-Scythe?

What then can her rebirth mean but the sealing of the Hellmouth in Sunnydale (why else would Harth in Fray find it necessary to re-open another?) But there is something that is mentioned in Fray that has always intrigued me, the HellGods (the 2 left after Glory) mention that there is a portal that may be used, but that it has been used twice before and should not be chanced to use it again (does it have a life of 3 uses?). Could that portal, be The Key? I hope so... I hope that green ball of energy is bled again, but this time used to the favor of mankind as the monks had prophesized. I just think it might have some dire consequences for Dawn.... oh well!!!

[> [> Lijdrec, just for you....from the Shooting Script for Buffy 7.20 'Touched' -- Rufus, 20:34:04 05/07/03 Wed

I'll give you what the last page of the script says....


37 Int. Vineyard - Secret Chamber - Same time

Buffy is on her feet. Her expression is excited. She is looking at something amazing. The object of her quest.

There, buried up to its hilt in


(note: the stone should be blackened in places and chipped where the Bringers attempted to remove the scythe)

ANGLE ON BUFFY as her face take on a look of recognition. And just a faint smile, but the first smile we've seen in a long time.


Another reason I use the term's in the script.

[> Actually, maybe Willow or Kennedy should be wielding it! -- WickedBuffy (spoilers to Touched), 10:24:35 05/07/03 Wed

First, I don't think the writers, who are so meticulous about these kinds of things, would confuse a scythe with a labrys. Just like the shooting script differs from the actual transcripts, so could the Fray scythe be changed into a labrys. (If it even has anything to do with Fray.)

Here's a scattering of what I found:

"The labrys is the sacred double-headed axe which was the scepter of the ancient Amazonian Goddesses who were worshiped under the various names of Gaea, Rhea, Demeter and Artemis.
Used metaphorically, it is an instrument of change, of Metamorphosis. Flying with it, we shift from circular reasoning to Spiraling E-motional knowing and action." (Daly, 1984)

That makes sense. Buffy is a powerful woman and powerful women are sometimes referred to as Amazons. I don't think she's a goddess, but who knows in the finale?
We are seeing Buffy change from "General" to kind of regualr person. She's shedding her hard exterior, letting Spike in, realizing how she cut people off from herself - distancing herself. She's moving from strategic planning to emotional knowing. In previous fights with Caleb she fought like some kind of fembot. This last fight, she flowed, her movements were graceful. (yahyah special efects just helped that along)

"The labrys is a double-sided hatchet or axe commonly used in ancient European, African, and Asian matriarchical societies as both a weapon and a harvesting tool. Greek artwork depicts the amazon armies of Europe wielding labrys weapons. Amazons ruled with a dual-queen system in which one queen was in charge of the army and battle, and the other queen stayed behind to administer the conquered cities."

That's interesting - we do have two slayers. What about a Dual-Slayer system similar to the Amazons?

"The Labrys is an ancient Goddess symbol used by the Minoan peoples of Crete, and now used to represent feminine power."
"The word Amazon has been translated as "a match for men," .... Feminist philosopher and writer Mary Daly sees the labrys as a symbol of feminist truth seeking."

We have a sexist pig gutting and demeaning women. Leading a hive of Bringers to slay all the girls. We have a band of women (basically) fighting them. We have Caleb giving speeches about the power of words, of truth - yet he can make lies be "truth". We have Buffy and the rest searching for their own truths, about themselves and those around them.

The labrys is a powerful symbol.

[> [> ::sigh:: I actually really DID do research for the above post. -- WickedBuffy, 14:33:24 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> I noticed....and printed spoilers for 'Touched' -- Rufus, 18:23:14 05/07/03 Wed

I could only use the words I found in the comics. Also the weapon Buffy finds looks like the one in the Fray comic and Tales of the Slayer. I have not seen any reference to the term "labrys", or trust me I would have used it.

I have to think that whoever started calling it a scythe either doesn't know the the difference in functional uses of curved blades...or in issue 8 of Fray they will change the term associated with it. But it is the blade from Fray

[> [> Curved blades may be like math to Joss...spoilers for Touched -- Rufus, 18:27:02 05/07/03 Wed

That's interesting - we do have two slayers. What about a Dual-Slayer system similar to the Amazons?

I'm not familiar with the Amazons, tell me more.

Also...remember what Buffy says to Spike about not wanting to be the "one"...does she mean the one to Spike?

[> [> My Bad. I was totally & completely off about the weapon. -- WickedWrong (spoilers Touched and next weeks promo), 20:01:15 05/07/03 Wed

After rewatching some parts of the episode in slow motion, it doesn't look like any labrys I've ever seen. I don't know what a bardiche is - but it looked like a long spike wooded end then partway towards the middle some type of hasp? (er, that thing that protects your hand from getting cut off if someones blade slides down your sword) ... it looks a little sceptre shaped, then it seems to be covered or turns into metal and the other end is a one-sided "blade" that isn't a single curve but several "swoops". And a red brightly glowing section near the bladed end. Which, in the promos, seems to spray bright light. Buffy was holding it like a staff, the heavier end down.

I apologize.
But I think there would have been much more symbolism and metaphors to play with if it HAD been a labrys! :>

But at least now we have primitive vs advanced symbolized at each end of the thing!

[> Re: The Scythe in Fray and Buffy.....spoilers for Fray issues 1-7 & Buffy -- O'Cailleagh, 20:12:16 05/07/03 Wed

I love this whole theory type thing, have done since I read up on Fray online and got Tales of the Slayers. ( not been able to find Fray here in Wales). One thing strikes me though, Buffy wasn't the last to be called, Kendra and Faith came after (as we all know), so is the legend that Urkkon tells Fray slightly off, or is Faith (or even one of the potentials) the one he is referring to?
Love to hear what you've got on The Glittering World, BTW Ruf, that one has intrigued me madly too. The whole twin thing....makes me wonder....


[> [> Fray....spoilers for Fray & Buffy 7.12 and the title of next week's Buffy -- Rufus, 20:47:14 05/07/03 Wed

I had to go online to find my copies of Fray, I got my copies from Things from another World, if you query that you will find the addy. Issue 8 of Fray is the one that ties everything together, and naturally it isn't out til after Buffy is over. There is also a novelization for season seven called Chosen by Nancy Holder that will be released June 1st. That book should be available from amazon.UK. I also heard that Fray may be released in graphic novel form after issue 8 has been out for would be well worth the price.

I have another post ready for after the showing of next weeks Buffy "End of Days", til then anything I will say may be too spoilery. But you are right to wonder about Slayers. It isn't made clear which Slayer, Urkonn is talking about as the last one called, the complete detailed history had been lost so Urkkon had been going on what little he was told.

[> [> [> Ooops, that's a's Buffy 7.20 not 7.12 -- Rufus, 20:48:53 05/07/03 Wed

i think that kennedy is about to over take riley as the most hated character ever -- 110v3w1110w, 00:36:16 05/07/03 Wed

damn she is annoying. shes been in sunnydale only for a few weeks has limited experiance and thinks she should be telling everyone the way its going to be. she needs to be told that she is in the company of people who have been fighting evil a lot longer than she has and know a lot more about it or i think she is due for a big fall

[> lalalalala...not listening (nt) -- grifter, still trying to like Kennedy, 00:47:13 05/07/03 Wed

[> And like Reilly... (Spoiler for 7.20) -- CW, 06:05:23 05/07/03 Wed

her biggest crime is that isn't so-and-so's fan-favorite significant other. I don't mind people hating her so much as I do people thinking that hating her is such a great topic of discussion. Shoot, it's okay for you and Rob to bring up how you feel, but I really don't want this to turn into a "XXX is so kewl; XXX sucks!" board as the show is winding down.

You say you're a fan of Willow. Let her have a life, okay? A person only gets half a say in who their significant other will be in real life. Don't go ballastic because your tv show favorites pick someone you wouldn't.

[> [> I wanted to like Kennedy -- dream, 06:57:33 05/07/03 Wed

I was a staunch defender in the beginning. I adored Tara, but I thought Willow could use a Miss-Right-Now to move on with. I also found her swagger just annoying enough to give her some teexture, while providing an interesting foil to GeneralBuffy. But I have been liking her less and less, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think that the sheer quantity of important characters this season (the usuals, plus Wood, Andrew and Faith and the bevy of SITs) have left very little time to give her character more than one characteristic. The plot required her characteristic to be an agressive brashness, and that's all we've seen since TKiM. No problem there, really, but it is difficult to see a beloved character making love to someone who has been little more than a troublemaker for most of the season.

Last night I had to admit that I didn't like the development of the Kennedy character. When Willow didn't want to sleep with her at first, I thought that Willow had changed her mind about Kennedy, and I was all set to be really impressed with the writing. Sometimes that happens, a relationship starts out, and then loses steam as you get to kno one another. Now, of course, they were going somewhere else entirely with that scene, and Willow's fear made perfect sense. But I realized I had come to dislike the girl rather strongly, and was surprised that Willow had feelings for her.

There is something else, less definable. I don't usually talk about chemistry between characters, because I think that most of the time, "no chemistry" seem to be just short-hand for "I don't like one of these people."* Maybe it is in this case, too, but their love scene seemed very awkward to me. (Loved the tongue-piercing, though - laughed out loud.) The people I was watching with agreed. Did anyone find that scene really effective? Am I being terribly influences by my own likes and dislikes, or was something a little off in those scenes?

* I can list all sorts of personal exceptions. I didn't like Angel, but thought he and Buffy had chemistry. I liked Oz, but never thought he and Willow had much chemistry. I dislike Wood, but thought he and Faith had chemistry last night (though not nearly as much as Spike and Faith.) And so on...

[> [> [> ::wondering what part of the video store Rob hasn't visited:: ;> -- WickedBuffy, 09:43:47 05/07/03 Wed

"Maybe it is in this case, too, but their love scene seemed very awkward to me. (Loved the tongue-piercing, though - laughed out loud.) The people I was watching with agreed. Did anyone find that scene really effective? Am I being terribly influences by my own likes and dislikes, or was something a little off in those scenes?"

Yes, Rob!

It was missing soft music, chocolate-dipped strawberries and champagne.

The only "off" part that surprised me was her tongue piercing. Never noticed it before, in her mouth or in her diction. Very nice, though.

[> [> [> [> I'm not Rob! -- dream, 09:51:33 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> I can't tell you two apart sometimes! (ok, insert'dream' where'Rob' was then slap me) -- WickedError ohhh sorry dream! sorry Rob!, 14:31:13 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: I wanted to like Kennedy -- Calamus, 02:15:05 05/08/03 Thu

about the W/K scene: I liked the idea behind the discussion they had- and liked how "familiar" that kind of chat was. The visuals with the sound off, yo ho ho. But the dialogue was so clunky it definitely... well... it matches the vast majority of lesbian movies. But that's definitely not a plus.

[> [> Re: Kennedy (spoiler and speculation) -- Mystery, 07:02:46 05/07/03 Wed

Actually one of the few things that are keeping me from actively disliking Kennedy is the fact that she's with Willow. I like her interaction with Willow, the fact that their personalities are a balance, something Willow never really had with Tara and even with Oz. Kennedy is a trained potential (it is very clear that her Watcher was around for a while), one day, she could be Slayer. Willow is a powerful witch, the MOST powerful in the hemisphere. They powers are different but they match, whereas, Willow's magic was completely overshadowed by Oz's wolf, and Tara's powers were nowhere near as powerful as Willow's (at least as far as Tara was concerned. Although I do believe that Tara's magics were the type that "enhanced" others). With Kennedy/Willow, Kennedy will kept Willow from being a victim (as is Willow's tendancy) and Willow keeps Kennedy from flying off the handle, and right now is probably appreciating Tara's patience and understand more and more. I love Tara, still to this day, but it is unfair of us to want Willow to mourn forever. Yes, her relationship with Kennedy is not as elegant as her and Tara, BUT in the way Willow acts with Kennedy, you can see the parts of Tara that are forever a part of her.

However, I do think that Kennedy is overstepping herself. Even assuming that she's been trained since she was 15 (according to the shooting script for "Bring on the Night" Kennedy is 19), she still doesn't have the "field time" that the Scoobies and Faith have had. Yes, she's slightly more powerful than the average human, but she's not all that. She's still WAAAAY too green for the leader position. Kendra, the most extensively trained Slayer/Potential we've seen, wouldn't have been ready for leadership right out the gate, and she wasn't. She fought under the guidance of her Watcher and sometimes Giles. Kennedy needs to accept guidance from others. She DOES shine as a drill instructor, even if she took it too far by calling Chloe a maggot. If anything the glee she had over the maggot line shows that she's not mature enough yet. You're supposed to rip into people to motivate them to get it right, not for your own perverse pleasure.

However, dispite my complaints, Kennedy's character is perfect. She's supposed to be abrasive and "I'm better than everyone." She's been trained for years, she comes from serious money and probably is convinced she's tough because she went into Manhattan every weekend to party. She lacks humility. She's used to getting her way. From the beginning, she's had the arrogance, from the beginning it's very clear she alot more comfortable when she has control of a situation. She's been forward and even forceful. There's not doubt in her mind that she's the daughter of a high-powered CEO and his successful first wife, that mom and dad got divorced and dad married him a trophy wife, who eventually gave him another child, and it is likely that her father mollified Kennedy by giving her what she wanted, like ponies, and her own wing in the house complete with special bathroom. She's basically what would have happened if high school Cordelia became Slayer (think Cordelia in "Homecoming" when she rips into the vamp)...which is kind of funny considering Willow's getting with her.

I may not like her personally, but I love the writing and detail given to her character. I think that if given time, she could have moved past the intial impression of bratty, rich kid who thinks she's all that. Look at what happened with Cordy over the years. Unfortunately, unless Kennedy and Willow end up on Angel (providing Angel is renewed), we won't have a chance to see it.

[> [> [> Re: Kennedy (spoiler and speculation) -- Rendyl, 07:46:11 05/07/03 Wed

I thought I might post a few lines since this bothers me and has for a couple of months now.

I am not a big shipper and I don't much care what pairings occur as long as they fit the storyline. And no, I don't want Willow to mourn forever. But much like Amanda in a previous thread I am very disturbed by how everyone has to rush into new relationships. I don't think Willow's spree of rage should substitute for the time needed to grieve and heal from losing Tara. It has been less than a year, and some of that time was spent just trying to put Willow back together. I find it unrealistic for her to be in a relationship this soon.

I know it is tv and things follow a different timeline but Xander and Anya are still struggling with getting over each other while the writers have Willow just jump back in.

I understand that grief is different for everyone. But there are certain things that everyone has to work through and they do take time. I do feel like it lessens her relationship with Tara when they pair her so quickly with someone else.


[> [> [> My feelings exactly! -- grifter, 10:37:58 05/07/03 Wed

I don´t have to actually like a character for her/him to work. It´s the same as with Riley: he´s not my favorite character, not as cool as Spike or as funny as Xander, but he was a good character. He was important to Buffy´s development at that point in time. Just like Kennedy is to Willow´s now.

[> [> Thank you CW -- Sophist, 08:29:17 05/07/03 Wed

I'm sure this Board would become pretty dull if every poster announced how much he/she hated Spike/Kennedy/Buffy/Xander/fill-in-the-blank at the start of every post.

Personally, I don't get the harsh reaction some have to Kennedy. I find her very interesting. Sure, she's brash and out of line. But she's also (unless there's a betrayal being set up here) tender and comforting to Willow. I thought the bedroom scene was excellent (RRK does a great job with these, btw). I did not think it was forced and, for whatever my subjective opinion is worth, I do see chemistry here.

[> [> [> Re: Thank you CW -- Dariel, 09:33:42 05/07/03 Wed

Yes, I like the way Kennedy is with Willow also. She's very good at helping Willow deal with her fears about "letting go."

I also think she's abrasive. On the other hand, in 7.20 she admits how scary it was to be bait for the Bringers. Not so brash in that scene!

[> [> It has nothing to do with willow -- 110v3w1110w, 10:57:17 05/07/03 Wed

she is just the most annoying person ever she needs nothing else to make her more annoying she stands out on her own as a beacon of annoying with out willow

[> As the cynical coot who started this whole thing. (spoilers Touched) -- Shiraz, 08:51:02 05/07/03 Wed

I have to say that I actually found Kennedy's presence bearable, and in keeping with the storyline.

She actually admitted to FEAR for the first time ever! She acted as though she were a PART of the team rather than its appointed leader.

She even treated the other potentials as though they were PEERS rather than barely worthy underlings.


Well? Who says women can't be wizards?

Granny hesitated. The tree might as well have asked why fish couldn't be birds. ... She knew a cutting, incisive, withering and above all a self-evident answer existed. It was just that, to her extreme annoyance, she couldn't quite bring it to mind.

Terry Pratchett - "Equal Rites"

[> I liked Riley and... -- LittleBit, 10:31:31 05/07/03 Wed

...I don't dislike Kennedy.

She has a take-charge personality, yes. Something that, to be honest, we aren't used to in the group dynamic from anyone other than Buffy. We all cheered when Buffy wasn't around and one of the others showed this characteristic (Xander in Prophecy Girl, Willow in The Dark Age, for example). But this part of her nature and the fact that she quite obviously had been training for some time were reasons to put her in charge of the basic training of the other Potentials, not because she was developing a relationship with Willow. And the way she was approaching that? Need I remind anyone of the way the Watchers' Council (other than Giles) approached the training of the girls?

As to her having no field experience, I think we don't know that one way or the other. What we do know is that she had a Watcher who is now dead, and Kennedy is not. Add to that the fact that as a Potential she has been wanting more of a say in what she does (and, yes, definitely wants to be part of the 'inner circle'---anyone else recall how much Faith hated feeling left out?), and I think we're perhaps seeing a little of the individual personality traits that have made Buffy and Faith different from other Slayers.

And, in a final note, if Kennedy had not pursued Willow, then I believe Willow would still be sunk in a guilt funk. Willow has never been the pursuer (not even counting Xander whom she pined over for years before they both realized they had a wonderful friendship and not a romantic relationship). Oz went after her, as did Tara. Willow needs someone at this point who will act as her anchor, not sllow her to withdraw from living and give her the confidence she needs to use her skills. And who says an interim relationship has to be over in a month or two?

That said, I'll just add that, no, I don't want to see Kennedy become the next Slayer. But at the same time I'm not hoping to see her die.

[> [> You go, LB. Well, except for the Riley part. -- Sophist, 10:46:45 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> I gotta agree totally -- VampRiley, a too busy god, turned partial lurker, 11:15:21 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Well, she certainly took the heat off Dawn. -- WickedBuffy ::thinking keys should be dangling on chains::, 17:21:42 05/07/03 Wed

[> Re: i think that kennedy is about to over take riley as the most hated character ever -- Alison, 14:22:33 05/07/03 Wed

I cannot say that I like Kennedy..not because I feel that her character is under developed ( which I do, but its understandable)..its her attitude that bothers me. I have nothing to say on THAT that hasn't been said but I wanted to ask if anyone else was suspicious of her during her dialogue in the W/K love scene..because I was sure either she was going to stab Willow right then, or that this was forshadowing...
so I'm wondering if this is just me. Honestly I have no idea about how any of this will end..but thats okay..I don't want to. I'm loving (nearly) every minute of it.

Off the top of my head...not much formed here (spoilers for Touched) -- Mystery, 04:48:30 05/07/03 Wed

Something struck me when the First as the Mayor was talking to Faith. When Faith told him he wasn't real, his response was "You don't get how this works, do you?" Then he tells her something to effect of Yes, we're just a part of The First but we are still our own people. Then Wood later commented that the First WAS his mother. Right down to the perfume.

Buffy, since she was brought back from the dead has felt like she's missing something, I wonder if that something missing is the First as Buffy. The First as Buffy starts off in Lessons with putting Dawn in danger for the dual purpose of testing Dawn application of her lessons from Buffy AND giving Buffy a chance to rescue her. The First is trying to keep Spike with her. The First probably tweaked Amy's hex on Willow. The First has been making Sunnydale get more and more Hellmouthy. All for one purpose: Giving Buffy back the Fire. Validating Buffy's belief that she is The One. She tortured Spike but allowed him to keep his belief that Buffy was coming for him. She made Willow seriously doubt her ability to control her power. She no doubt had a hand in Anya's pink slip. She controlled Wood to get Giles in the loop and try to kill Spike (knowing it most likely wouldn't work). She tells Dawn that Buffy won't chose her. She has her pet minion partially blind Xander. As the Mayor, he's convincing Faith that Buffy will never accept her.

All for the purpose of making Buffy finally be "The One" Last season Buffy was searching for her Fire. This season, the fire, the passion of the kill that made her the Slayer, is looking for her.

It's really unformed as of now. Any thoughts?

[> Re: Off the top of my head...not much formed here (spoilers for Touched) -- Shiraz, 13:54:22 05/07/03 Wed

You might be on to something there.

What if the thing "only she can wield" isn't just the sword/axe thingy but the essence of the First itself? After all, here we got the clue that what the first wants is to be able to 'feel', and to do that its going to need a body. Not just any body either.

If this (scary) line of thinking is correct, then the First's aim may be something similiar to what Jasmine pulled on Angel. Using a (more or less) human host to facilitate a corporeal form.

Oh God, another thought, on Angel, Jasmine was able to come into existence because Angel had earned a life way back in season two (I forget the episode name) during a challenge to save human Darla (which failed). That left the cosmic balance +1 life in Angel's favor. This resulted in Connor being sent a long as a bit of a consolation prize. Add to this Cordelia's half-demon transformation and you have the impossible conditions necessary for Jasmines birth.

1. 1 human life earned by Angel = Connor

2. Skip + Cordy = Demon Cordy

3. Cordy demon form + ill-advised ascension = Demon cordy * extra exPTB essesnce.

4. (Demon cordy * ex PTB)+ Lorne's magical memory bottle = Evil Cordy

5. Evil Cordy + Connor = Jasmine.

(or something like that)

Anyhow, what if, for the First to manifest, some string of events like this has to happen? However, because The first is coming from the completely opposite direction than Jasimine, maybe the starting point isn't going to be life earned, but a life STOLEN (resurrected).

First off, the balance. Remember the bit with the eye-guy? That the First was able to manifest because of Buffy's stubborn refusal to stay dead? Well what if that meant that the same cosmic balance that Angel (sorta) benefited from is tilted the other way for Buffy? I.E. that Buffy is one life overdrawn on the cosmic credit card?

So, could the First's plan be:

1. Buffy alive = First active; or -Buffy (antibuffy?)

2. Buffy + Caleb = Buffy/Friends

3. Slayerline-(Faith + Potentials) = Buffy Alone

4. Buffy + sword = Buffy*power (uberbuffy)

5. Uberbuffy + (?) = First's manifestation (?)

Gaahh, That's not quite right! I know I'm missing something there, but I don't know exactly where or how. I feel that Faith, Dawn, Willow, Xander and Giles should be in this equation, but I don't know in what role. Perhaps Angel's appearance will clear things up some (Hah!!).

Either way I think the two series may have been more connected than we thought. Just something to think about.


"Goats did have names for themselves, she well knew; there was "goat who is my kid," "goat who is my mother," "goat who is herd leader," and half a dozen other names not least of which was "goat who is this goat." They had a complicated herd system and four stomachs and a digestive system that sounded very busy on still nights, and Granny had always felt that calling all this names like Buttercup was an insult to a noble animal."

Terry Pratchett - "Equal Rites"

Faith, The First, and Holland Manners.....spoilers for Buffy 7.20 -- Rufus, 05:42:31 05/07/03 Wed

The First finally got around to messing a bit more with Faith. This time in the form of her surrogate father Mayor Wilkins. The Mayor loved Faith as much as he was capable of, but what Faith see's now is different....something that has an agenda, and that is to distract, and destroy the Potentials...the Slayer line.

Faith: You're wasting your time....I know who you are.

Mayor/First: Yeah....Nobody's explained to this works, have they? You see...I am part of the First, as you kids call it, but I'm also me, Richard Wilkins III, Late Mayor and Founder of Sunnydale.

Faith: You let me worry about the girls.

Mayor/First: Of course..of're doing a great job with them, by the way, much better than Buffy ever did. You were smart to kick her out.

Faith: That's not what we.....Buffy got them this far.

Mayor/First: Why are you protecting her? You think she cares about you? She nearly killed you, Faith.

Faith: It's different now.

Mayor/First: No matter what you do, Buffy will always see you as a killer, not as a person. And now you have what she so desperately wants....the respect of these girls. All she needs is an excuse, and she'll finish what she started when she stuck that knife in your belly. You stay on guard, Faith...Buffy's dangerous. If you're not careful, she'll destroy you.

Faith may have become a leader, but her insecurity is still there, that feeling that she doesn't deserve what she got.....and that fear that whatever respect she has gotten from the others will be taken away from Buffy. The First worked on that fear and competition with Buffy to make Faith less focused on the mission. This shows in what she does when she sends everyone off to look for a stash of weapons.

Faith: OK, I need you four to suss (she's been around Giles a bit too much) out the situation on B. I don't want you talking to her or getting in her way, or for that matter, letting you know you're there. Just do a little recon.

Wood: And where do you want me Faith?

Faith: By your phone I'll call you when I need you (oh Jeeze, Wood just became the Zeppo!)

Dawn: What are we looking for? I mean, is there some reason we should spy on Buffy?

Faith: We're just making sure she's OK (sure you are, making sure that is)

This is how the First gets finds that certain something....something that has been described before....on Angel

Holland: "Lindsey, - haven't you learned anything? No one has their own life. We're all part of something larger."

Lindsey: "Like Wolfram and Hart."

Holland: "I handpicked you when you were a sophomore at Hastings - not because you were smart - not because you were a poor kid who had to do better than anyone else - but because you had potential - potential for seeing things as they are. It's not about good or evil - it's about who wields the most power. And we wield a lot of it here, and you know what? I think the world is better for it."

Well, I threw in the above remember about that bit on power, but I'm also thinking about what Holland said to Angel....about humans....

Angel: "You're not gonna win."

Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"

Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.

Angel: "Then why?"

Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"

Angel: "Why fight?"

Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."

And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.

The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.

Holland: "Welcome to the home office."

Angel: "This isn't..."

Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."

The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.

Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."

The Mayor and Holland seem to support each other in the evil information department....but I somehow think that both didn't tell the whole story. What happens to every character will have to do with their choices.....the choice to zig when they could have zagged, the chance to be a real leader instead of someone afraid of losing what they haven't had for very long. So, has Faith become a good little girl, a hero? Well, if she can get past the evil that we all have in our hearts, that evil that tells us to take instead of give, hate instead of love, worry more about the competition than the real bad guy.....then I think Faith has got just as much of a chance as the rest of us.

[> Since you brought up Holland Manners (spoilers Peace Out and Touched) -- lunasea, 07:58:19 05/07/03 Wed

I love what Angel did in Peace Out. He saved the world in a way that Buffy hasn't yet.

In Sanctuary he tells Buffy "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. - That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other."

Buffy stays in Sunnydale and saves the world, a lot. She saves our lives every time she keeps the world from ending. She saves our lives by removing individual demons that would feed on and otherwise hurt us. She fights the never ending battle that is known as the good fight.

But that isn't exactly what Angel does. It was her idea that he should make amends, but his amends go a bit beyond just saving lives. Angel fights demons, like Buffy does, but that is a vehicle to his higher purpose.

What was that higher purpose? "Didn't you learn anything working for the Powers" Jasmine yells at him. What was Angel supposed to learn? Why couldn't he learn that with Buffy?

Freedom. It is a great thing. In Christianity, God grants it to us because of our divine nature. In the United States, the Constituation grants it to us (or we grant it to each other through the Constitution). What we do with that spirit is not dictated by God or the constitution.

But others sure as hell want to tell us what to do with it. What happened this past year in my country has saddened me to no end. How can a country that supposedly believes in the Constitution and freedom that shouldn't be restricted unless it is causing harm like crying fire in a crowded theater be trying to censor people through economics? Want to show the terrorists what we really stand for, everyone go buy Dixie Chick albums. Support Free Speech.

Jasmine did not take away our freedom. People could still do what they wanted. They just didn't want to any more. She went beyond freedom. God gave us freedom and Man abused it with The Fall. The Constitution gives us freedom and we abuse it all the time. Look at the things that are protected under free speech. Jasmine removed the desire to abuse our freedom, thus nulifying it.

In "Amends" Angel's crisis is about how he wants to abuse his freedom. He wants to lose his soul in Buffy. It makes him weak. Angel tends to really worry about abusing his freedom. Being with Buffy removes this desire to abuse freedom. His needs are pretty much met. He can't learn about the difficult choices we make being with Buffy. The only difficult one he has left is whether to stay with her.

This decision is first made on what he can't give her. It is a hard one, but not as hard as what will follow. He becomes human and can give her everything. Is this an abuse of his freedom? Angel decides that it is, that he can't do that if it costs Buffy or others their lives.

In order to make this choice, Angel would have to want both things. Jasmine takes that away from us. Angel saved the world by saving choice. Holland says "See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us." The world works because of choice, choices that aren't always smart. Choices are going to mean something is "good" and something is "evil." Even the choice between the lesser of two evils is still a choice based on which one is better.

Holland says "We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'" The Senior Partners just want to keep the game going. We have the PTBs (considered the good guys) who are feeding Angel the visions. We have the Senior Partners (considered evil) who are driving Angel nuts. Both of these things are just doing one thing, keeping the game going. They give Angel the opportunity to make choices.

Wolfram and Hart doesn't want Angel to go evil. They could do that easily by taking his soul. They want him to CHOOSE evil. The PTBs don't tell Angel things. Angel has to figure things out for himself. They want him to CHOOSE good. It is all about Angel's choice.

He has learned this. Gives a great speech to Jasmine about free will. Angel had to leave Buffy because he couldn't learn this with her. Buffy doesn't make choices as much. She is so weighted towards good, that she doesn't have the desires we all do. She isn't "a part of it." Angel doesn't have to make choices when he is with her. It is as much a part of Angel's story as it is Buffy's for him now to see her again and possibly open the door to a future relationship with her. They no longer have to "stay away from each other."

That is one side of the equation. For Angel to really come back, what was it she couldn't learn while he was around? Whatever it is, I bet it is in that note to Spike.

Not saying that Angel is coming back. Just if he does this is why.

[> [> Great post, concur wholeheartedly -- Shiraz, 08:20:48 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Nice, clear - I liked that. :> -- WickedBuffy, 09:14:49 05/07/03 Wed

"For Angel to really come back, what was it she couldn't learn while he was around? Whatever it is, I bet it is in that note to Spike."

I always thought it was about her raging codependency all this time.

Spikes speech could have come out of a 12 Step meeting for codependents (errrr, not that I would KNOW these things personally and not that he didn't deliver it stunningly wonderful)

He gave her unconditional love, the whole bedroom "you have the stage" monologue was about it.

And, I think she got it this time. No offense to Angel, but he's not deep in the ways that Spike is - must be the incurable romantic poet in him. It's not that Angel might not know what that's about - I just really haven't seen him teach Buffy about it as incredibly clear as Spike has. In his words, actions and presence.

[> [> Re: Since you brought up Holland Manners (spoilers Peace Out and Touched) -- Rufus, 19:16:41 05/07/03 Wed

Jasmine did not take away our freedom. People could still do what they wanted. They just didn't want to any more. She went beyond freedom. God gave us freedom and Man abused it with The Fall. The Constitution gives us freedom and we abuse it all the time. Look at the things that are protected under free speech. Jasmine removed the desire to abuse our freedom, thus nulifying it.

If you take away someones right to choose they aren't doing what they want to, they are doing the only thing the thrall Jasmine has over them allows. For mankind to fall, the higher power had to know they could fall. Same thing goes for what is happening in the Buffyverse. Darla told Connor that choice was more precious a gift than he could know. Jasmine offered perfect love, but the result was more like a drug induced high...that isn't choice, that isn't freedom.....for mankind to mean anything, to progress anywhere it is in the choices we all make to make it so....but only if we choose to. Good and evil mean nothing only if we don't understand the difference between the two. This is how Jasmine worked, anything was allowed in her realm of perfect love, even the monsterous...all because the people could not understand the difference between right and wrong. Jasmine was an easy way out, but if it meant that the person beside you has to die for this "perfect love", I'm with Angel, it isn't worth the price.

I love what Angel did in Peace Out. He saved the world in a way that Buffy hasn't yet.

The difference between Angel and Buffy is that she is a more true classic hero, where there is no hesitation when a choice between wrong or right is there....Buffy knows in her heart that certain things can't be done...because they are wrong.

Angel is lower on that ladder of heroes.....he does the heroic but also does things that are wrong (lawyer deaths). Buffy is hero of a kind that Angel isn't capable of being...he is an anti-hero that people seem to like because he has more human failings. People relate to what looks closest to themselves...Buffy's type of hero may seem a bit too perfect, a bit too good....Angel and characters like what Spike are becoming are the new anti-heroes who come with very human failings....and are easier for modern man to relate to.

[> [> [> Re: Since you brought up Holland Manners (spoilers Home) -- lunasea, 08:24:07 05/08/03 Thu

Not sure you understood what I was saying. I said that Jasmine effectively nullified freedom, but what she did was beyond that. She went to desire. She did not take away the option of evil. When this is brought up, such as the idea of killing the fang gang in the sewers, people then have the option for evil and they can act on it. It is like when you ask someone what they want for dinner. "I don't know" is the standard response. If you start to make suggestions, they will start to want something particular and be able to make a choice.

I like the scene in the church with the shiny happy cops (and if you want to see something really scary, on that Friday I went to to Langley AFB for something. The guards were rather polite and reminded me of those cops. Shiny Happy guys with real weapons [and not just side arms] in fatigues. That is a creepy sight). They mentioned that Jasmine doesn't order them around. It is more like a request. The only commands that I can remember her giving was to Connor to not kill the fang gang and to the audience to kill Angel. Everything else was phrased as a request. In that request, she planted the desire.

The people were all doing what they want to. She just controlled what they wanted to. "Would you like to come with me?" "Don't you want to kill them?" Jasmine was very big on obtaining what looked like consent. She could do this because she controlled what people wanted. In Buddhism we have a saying. "If you want to control the ox, give him a large enough pasture."

Before we can even have choice, we have to have desire. If we don't desire two different things, there is no choice to make. That is why when Angel is with Buffy, he doesn't have choices to make. That is why Buffy doesn't have all that many choices to make.

Jasmine in her zeal to kick our evolution up a few ticks removed certain desires. Later today, I will do a post contrasting Jasmine's paradise with what Wolfram and Hart offered the gang. Desire is important. It is what causes us to evolve.

The difference between Angel and Buffy is that she is a more true classic hero, where there is no hesitation when a choice between wrong or right is there....Buffy knows in her heart that certain things can't be done...because they are wrong.

That is one level of looking at them, but not the one that I am. Buffy has some serious issues of her own, namely her isolation and her abandonment complex, both of which she couldn't have dealt with if Angel had stayed. Buffy may know that what the demons/human do is wrong, but she doesn't know how wrong it is to shut herself off from the people who she loves. Love, pain, strength. She hasn't realized what is the source of her power and how wrong it is to not use it. She still needs to learn what her power is for and how to use it. Not quite the classic hero. Name a classic hero centered around his or her heart.

Neither Buffy nor Angel fit the classic models because their power isn't their physical strength. It isn't just about pummeling something. They fit the model of saint more than they do hero.

[> *really* nice, rufus--especially the end! (everybody read above post!) -- anom, 23:35:19 05/07/03 Wed

Elaboration for Lumina as requested -- lunasea, 06:05:28 05/07/03 Wed

First an answer: Do you see Angel as only having become a fully-fledged, independent character since becoming the hero of his own show?

Define fully-fledged, independent character. I think much of the problems with this thread is that people feel that the characters we all love are being denigrated. Who cares if they are all just plot devices? They are plot devices for Joss' story. They are his servants and serve him incredibly well.

Even Buffy is a contrivance. The purpose isn't to tell what happens to some cute blond cheerleader-type. It is to makes us love her. It is to make us feel her pain. Show them, don't tell them. No one would care about her power if we didn't care about her. By caring about her, we are caring period. Now if we can just extend that to living people.

What do I see Angel as S1-2 (3 doesn't count since they are getting him ready for the spin off)? I believe I said in the original post, a goregous plot device. One that captured my imagination and I wanted to get more screen time. The only thing that consoled me those Angel-less episodes was when I figured out that when he wasn't featured much in an episode, that meant he would be heavily featured in an upcoming one. It was like he had a line quota per season or something (actually it was to build up anticipation. If I didn't see Angel, I wanted to know what he was up to).

My views on secondary characters. I tried to think which episode to illustrate this with. A couple went through my head. I decided to stay away from anything post season 3, since that would involve discussing Spike. I was going to stay away from anything Angel-centric, but decided not to. My choice is to illustrate the show by looking at one of my favorite episodes "Amends."

I love the titles of the shows. Next to the order of the episodes in a season, it is my favorite thing to get into. The title really shows what an episode is about. That is why there is only one episode with a character's name and that name means things that pertain to Buffy (she is the real angel of the episode). Drew wanted to name "Selfless" "Anya" but Joss told him he doesn't like episodes named after characters. The episodes aren't about characters. They aren't even plot points, usually. They are explorations of something, typically an emotion.

That emotion is primarily written about Buffy. Occassionally we get a secondary character centric episode, but typically the center is Buffy. That is why the premier traces the arc of the entire season. It isn't the plot points that make up the arc, but Buffy's emotional state.

In "Amends" Joss is exploring something very important to him (so important it drives his spin-off)--forgiveness and what is required for it. At this point, all the characters need forgiveness for something: Xander from Buffy for what he did in "Revelation" and from Cordelia for what he did in "Lover's Walk," Willow from Oz for "Lover's Walk," Faith from Buffy for what she did in "Revelations," Angel for Angelus, Joyce for what happened with Giles in "Band Candy," and Buffy. Can't ever leave out Buffy.

We can look at it from Willow/Oz's arc and see how this episode is important to their relationship. We can look at it from Angel's arc and see how this episode gave rebirth to a Champion. Does Xander really have an arc that season? We can look at if it from Faith's perspective and see her briefly reconciling with Buffy. We can see how uncomfortable Joyce is at the mention of Giles. These are all layers to this episode.

We can use it to show how amazing Oz is, what an uber-bitch Cordy is, how sad Xander's home life is, what Angelus was like, how defensive Faith is, any number of dots that when put together form the characters we love.

Another interesting angle is that Joss choose THIS episode to have the source of all evil as the baddie. The baddie is the metaphor for whatever is going on with the characters. Want to know what the First is this season, you have to look no further than "Amends."

All of that misses something. It misses Buffy. Each episode contribute to an overall seasonal arc. There are filler episodes, but even those relate to the arc. "Normal Again" is something they have wanted to explore for seasons. It fit well with Season 6. Why this filler in this season gives what the theme of the season is.

When I talk about secondary characters as plot devices, it is to strip away all these interesting explorations and just look at the one exploration that carries from episode to episode. Willow and Oz were a great ship. They are great characters. Faith was an amazing arc. Angel was too. All of those things, though, are explorations of what they want to explore with Buffy.

Xander really was the Zeppo Season 3. His actions from episode to episode aren't on any path going somewhere. They are what is required for the exploration of whatever they are exploring that episode. That doesn't mean that I couldn't take the points for his character and play with them. It doesn't mean that I don't care about him or want to bitch-slap Cordelia.

Now for Spike. There was no grand scheme behind Spike, at least until they had to get him ready for life after Buffy. He was in the same position Xander was season 3. He is used to explore various things. He is used to show various things about Buffy. This plays out best in FFL. The episode isn't called "Spike." It is about the various fools for love--Riley (which is set up at the end of "the Replacement), Spike (which is set up at the end of "OOMM) and Buffy. Why Buffy is on that list is key to the season.

It isn't about moving Spike along. It isn't about how they want him to change over the course of a season. When all those points are connected, it sure looks this way. It is a great illusion. That illusion is one level of looking at the show. That illusion is created by the viewer interacting with the Buffyverse. In "reality" the characters really do "exist only to illustrate themes or highlight aspects of Buffy's character."

But what an illusion it is.

Giles' killing the Bringer -- fleur-de-lis, 07:12:21 05/07/03 Wed

Need some speculations on why Giles cut the Bringer's throat so quickly---anyone?

[> Re: Giles' killing the Bringer -- tam, 08:13:23 05/07/03 Wed

i can accept an evil willow. i can accept an evil xander. i can even accept and evil buffy. but I WILL NOT ACCEPT AN EVIL GILES. NO NO NO NO NO

[> [> Which is worse... -- dream, 08:36:49 05/07/03 Wed

EvilGiles, or really depressed, negative, scheming, underhanded, useless Giles? At this point, I think I would rather have Giles dead, or evilly influenced, or possessed, or just about anything other than what he's turned into this season.

[> [> [> Re: Which is worse... -- CW, 08:50:54 05/07/03 Wed

Yes, if nothing is wrong with him otherwise, he is acting like a particularly bitter, unemployed librarian. Even if it is all misdirection, you wonder why no one, asked him pointedly why he killed the bringer so aburptly. The only time we've seen him act so violently and rashly was when Jenny was killed. I don't think the bringers sneering at the good guys' efforts is exactly in the same category.

[> [> [> [> Are You Really That Surprised By Giles, This Season? -- Rina, 09:08:42 05/07/03 Wed

Are you guys really that surprised by Giles, this season? One of his biggest hangups has been about Buffy no longer needing him. Spike had perfectly exploited this fear in "The Yoko Factor".

In early Season 6, he left because he realized that Buffy was getting too old to be always depended upon him. And that she needed to grow up.

When he returned in Season 7, Giles discovered that he got what he had wished for . . . Buffy was depending less and less upon him. And he didn't like it. Even worse, she was re-establishing contact with Spike, someone Giles has always disapproved of. Even if Spike had never been triggered by the First, Giles still would have been uneasy having him around.

But the biggest upset that Giles has experienced this year was the destruction of the Watcher's Council - something that has been a part of his life for a long time, despite his shaky relationship with them.

When you combine the following:

1) Buffy's maturity

2) The re-establishment of Buffy and Spike's relationship

3) The First Evil starting a war

4) Growing old

5) The destruction of the Watcher's Council;

is it any wonder that he has been acting odd, all season long?

[> [> [> [> [> Not surprised, exactly -- dream, 09:27:32 05/07/03 Wed

It's just that very little time has been given to the exploration of these issues. So suddenly Giles shows up with all the worst aspects of his personality in full display, while all the best seem to have gone into hiding. We know THAT the Watcher's Council has been destroyed, but Giles doesn't say much about it. Now, Buffy has been displaying some of the worst sides of her character this season, but we've also seen her stroking Dawn's head as she slept, tearing up at photos of herself with Xander and Willow, and talking to Holden Webster about her troubles. If we had seen Giles calling one former Watcher friend after another, to find each of them dead, or something, anything to tie together what seems to me a very large personality shift with the events that caused it, I would feel better. It just seems wrong that a good part of the fan base should spend the whole year uncertain as to whether a major character is being controlled by evil.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not surprised, exactly -- Rina, 10:26:54 05/07/03 Wed

The only evil I saw controlling Giles was his own demons and fears. He didn't need the First to start acting odd. It wasn't really hard to surmise what was going on with him. And all one had to do was look back on his dark side, from the past.

As for Buffy - I've had no problem with her behavior, this season. Everyone has been complaining about how cold she seems or distant from the Scoobies. What did they expect? For her to remain the same? She's growing up.

[> [> [> [> [> I wonder about that... -- Sofdog, 12:16:36 05/08/03 Thu

Giles has disapproved of Spike, sure, but he was the first one to try to bring Spike over to the Good Side. Back in Season 4, he tried to appeal to Spike after the chip went into effect.

I think Giles is still uneasy with Angel after the Season 2 torture, but he manages to work quite effectively with him.

[> [> [> [> my theory about his behaviour (spoilers up until now, and empty places script)... -- Alison, 13:31:06 05/07/03 Wed

Since there was a reference to Jenny's death in the shooting script for EP, a shot of her as the First in the "previously on.." for DG, and Faith got a visit from the "mayor", I think the First has appeared to Giles as Jenny. That would explain
A)the "violent and rash" behavior
B) The resentment of Buffy
C) The lack of faith in Buffy's decisions
D) how withdrawn he's been
E) his lack of willingness to trust Spike, and Buffy's judgement in relation to him
just my two cents...

[> I percolated two reasons ...(spoilers Touched) -- WickedBuffy, 09:26:11 05/07/03 Wed

That was abrupt to me, too. I kept thinking about it and watched it again but could only come up with two answers.

1) He's still being StrangeGiles and suspect as to being influenced by the FE. Giles cut the Bringers throat before any more specific information came out - oh, say like THE HIVE SET A TRAP FOR YOU AND THERE'S A BOMB IN A BOX THAT LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE CASKET? He stopped the flow of information where they had just enough information to find the underground weaponry, but not enough to be told it was a trap.

2) As Andrew/Hive droned on about them being waves and everywhere and knew all and saw all blahblah, Giles swiftly offed the man before his words could do damage to the SITS, etc. Fear, apathy about being able to win against such a foe, the kind of psychological ideas the FE has been planting in people's heads every episode. The Bringer wasn't really giving them any new information when Giles did that( though no one was asking anymore questions right then), he was just droning on about Evil winning.

[> A third possibility (spoilers 7.20, duh) -- Vickie, 09:48:03 05/07/03 Wed

In chat last evening, people suggested that the Bringer speaking through Andrew could be dangerous for him (thus Giles stopped it once the Bringer gave them the information they wanted). I have problems with this:
  1. Andrew didn't appear to be under any stress or in any pain. So how could Giles know the spell was dangerous for him? The spell in the book apparently didn't say there would be a speaker for the dead (hum).
  2. The Bringer was not finished, and might have provided even more information if allowed to continue.
  3. Giles could have had Willow end the spell, rather than cutting the Bringer's throat.

So, while it's possible, it doesn't seem all that likely (IMHO) Giles was saving Andrew.

[> [> Not only that, but.... -- LittleBit, 11:01:59 05/07/03 Wed

Andrew was quite right to as upset as he was. His point that Giles could have psychicly cut his throat with what he did was completely ignored but entirely valid. I won't pretend to know a great deal about this, but from what I have read abruptly ending a contact like that can be painful for the medium, and to end it with a violence of that type even more so.

[> Ended the scene -- lunasea, 11:06:55 05/07/03 Wed

Plot point made, time to move on. It is always nice to see Ripper out for a stroll. It was really nice juxtaposition seeing as he took the knife away from that (i'll refrain from bashing, insert your own insult here).

[> Remember the Mayor? -- Wizard, 19:39:28 05/07/03 Wed

Giles has been acting strangely all ever since he first arrived. It's not hard to understand why- even though a more thorough explanation of the reasons would have been most welcome. And as for now... yes, there was the possibility that Andrew would have gotten hurt, and if it had been anybody else in that room, he may not have been as quick to use the knife.

But this isn't the first time he did something like this. Graduation Day, Part One.

Heavily paraphrasing here.

Mayor: I'm going to eat her heart.

And what did Giles do? He took a sword and plunged it into dear old Dickie's chest.

Yes, I know that the scenarios were different. The sword couldn't hurt the Mayor, and they all knew it, but it was motivated by much the same emotion as slicing the ringer's throat. And to be fair, they more or less got everythin they could out of it. Besides- how likely was it that it would have blabbed about the plan? Even Glory's minions had more independance than the Bringers do.

[> [> Re: Remember the Mayor? -- WickedBuffy, 22:43:19 05/07/03 Wed

I *was* thinking about him - even before the FE morphed him. Wondering how much of a role model and influence he was for Faith as a leader. He *was* a pretty good leader. And unless she took Dale Carnagie Success Courses in prison, Faith didn't seem to have ever had any experience in tha position before.

She was always the Lone Slayer, while Buffy was the Group Leader. Now their roles have flip-flopped.

[> [> Remember Glory/Ben? -- mamcu, 09:18:00 05/08/03 Thu



[> [> Just so you know, if that was a spoiler in any way, shape, or form, I will go postal. -- Rob, about to blow his lid, 16:24:20 05/08/03 Thu

Revisiting WANT TAKE HAVE (spoils for Touched) -- neaux, 08:05:06 05/07/03 Wed

Revisiting Want Take and Have.

Ok. Anyone else find the WANT TAKE HAVE notion re-appear last nite? I couldn't help but think about this in terms of Faith and Buffy.

It started with Buffy wanting a place to stay.. taking it by minor force and kicking an occupant out of his own house. This scene was quite disturbing to me, for a second I really thought that Buffy and Faith did switch places as the Good and Bad slayer.

But since I don't have much to add other than the obvious, I'll list the rest of instances where I think the Want Take Have philosophy returned. Again in Buffy's new house that she took, You could interpret her scene with Spike as another WANT TAKE HAVE instance. Of course Spike's speech might have blurred this notion, but Buffy did Want Spike to stay. And she already had his heart.

The last scene also disturbed me. After Buffy's nite of rest, it looked as if the Slayer had returned. But did she really? I might be crazy to think that true power comes from within, but to see Buffy's eyes glow after finding this new weapon/this new powersource held by the First. That seems like bad news to me. Again here is the WANT TAKE HAVE. Wow she can take this great power. As much as I want it to be a good source of power for Buffy, I think this defeats the purpose of the show. Again, I believe to find true power it needs to be found within.. trying to find external power sources, taking other people's power, that's not cool. But of course this isn't my show. I'm still wondering what ME's point is going to be about Power.

Faith wants information. So when Faith sets up a trap for a Bringer. Does she WANT TAKE HAVE? I think so, and she convinces Giles and SITs to make this so.

Faith lived by this philosophy and you can tell hard habits are hard to die. But you also see in Touched that she now DOESNOT really WANT but she still ends up TAKING and HAVING Buffy's leadership role. The Mayor/FE tries to convince her she is still living this old philosophy. (OR maybe that was Spike telling Faith this.. I'm not sure) But we know that this idea is not true because Faith admits to Wood that she wants Buffy to return. So is Faith really changing?

To answer this, I'd look at Faith old and new, we can look at season 3's Faith's sex scene with Xander and Faith's scene with Wood. Faith did want, take, have Xander back in season 3, but this time around with Wood it was definitely mutual. Or is it?

So I ask all of you guys this, Was Faith's scene with Wood WANT TAKE HAVE? Yes its Mutual sex but that could also mean that WOOD AND FAITH are thinking on the same lines. They could both WANT TAKE AND HAVE simultaneously.
What about Willow and Kennedy? I think we are seeing some Faith in Kennedy. Is Kennedy following WANT TAKE HAVE?

FAITH's Curiosity
This cliffhanger last night could be another WANT TAKE HAVE scenario.. but after seeing the trailer for next week's episode I think this will be the last time Faith tries to live by these 3 words. She gets burned and could end up burning others that she is supposedly trying to protect.

I probably botched this notion up but honestly I just want to get your guys opinions on this. What do you guys think about WANT TAKE HAVE and last nite's episode?

[> Re: Revisiting WANT TAKE HAVE (spoils for Touched) -- MaeveRigan, 12:33:31 05/07/03 Wed

I picked up on Buffy's flip to "Bad Girls" & "want-take-have" in her requisitioning of the hapless homeowner's home, but I salute you, neaux, for picking up on the same theme throughout the episode!

I agree with you that it's definitely an issue for Faith.

For Buffy, however, I believe her wanting, taking and having another "home" was her low point. She wanted Spike to stay, but she asked him, she didn't take him by force, which was her MO throughout season 6. You may be right, though, that the power offered by the weapon may be too much. OTOH, if it is intended for Buffy, then it would not be wrong for her to "want-take-have" it. There's that "Sword in the Stone" allusion.

[> Re: Revisiting WANT TAKE HAVE (spoils for Touched) -- CW, 14:03:49 05/07/03 Wed

My first reply to this was eaten when voy ate this post this morning. Try, try again.

I'm not sure that Buffy's breaking and entering was a case of want-take-have. As she said she was just looking for a place to curl up and go to sleep. I suspect that she would have gladly wandered to the next empty house if she thought the one she picked was occupied. Plus she was telling the owner the truth when she told him, it was best that he leave like everyong else, even if she did it in a callous fashion. There were not really anymore more property owners in town, just victims. Sunnydale was a town that should never have been built.

I think there is an aspect of want-take-have in everything you've mentioned. But, I think some of the 'want' aspect is missing in many cases in this ep. It's more a choice of not terribly civilized alternatives in a war zone.

Do they still make Tab? The last one I had years ago was really nasty. ;o)

[> [> thanks guys for the response! -- neaux, 15:51:39 05/07/03 Wed

I was afraid VOY had eaten my post forever.. but tonite it had returned!! Yay!

[> [> Re: Revisiting WANT TAKE HAVE (spoils for Touched) -- gillie, 20:21:32 05/07/03 Wed

perhaps faith telling wood to wait by the phone is a clue that faith perhaps hasn't changed as much as she'd like. perhaps her visit from the mayor had something to do with reverting to old patterns?

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