May 2001 posts
Alone (spiral spoilers) -- June,
21:30:56 05/12/01 Sat
Spoiler space
Dawn has learned that there is nothing, and no one to count on.
She depended on the reality of her own existence. Her memories,
her diaries (something we all take for granted). Nope. All lies.
She relied heavily on her mom. But she is dead.
When it came right down to it the last thing she could rely upon
is Buffy as her protector. Now Buffy has failed her (Not Buffy's
fault but then again it wasn't Joyce's fault either).
So everyone and everything she has ever relied on has failed Dawn.
She has nothing left. Nothing but herself.
In the end she is alone, like the rest of us.
Poor Dawn.
It is all up to Dawn now. Can she rise to the challenge? I think
she is a lot stronger than others and even herself gives her credit
for.
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[> Re: Alone (spiral spoilers) -- Rufus, 23:27:46 05/12/01
Sat
Consider this, the Knights may call Glory the beast but they are
more afraid of the Key. We know that gods have limitations and
can be defeated, but, Gregor said that the keys power is absolute.
Is the key more powerful than a god? We know that Glorys power
has limits and she could be slowed down by Willow, but what bag
of built in tricks may Dawn have that she is unaware of? Gregor
also called the Key and instrument of destruction, here we are
with instuments again. The CoW considered Buffy the instrument
of the council and she all of the sudden went independent of them.
So is the key more than an instrument, can Dawn use power independent
of a user such as Glory?
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[> [> Re: Dawn and possible powers of the Key -- FanMan,
03:31:26 05/13/01 Sun
I posted below my general theories about Dawn in the next two
seasons. I believe that in The Gift Buffy will be more powerfull,
pain makes her stronger. Buffy has had a lot of pain in this season.
I think she will remain about the same power after The Gift and
all next season. The Buffy stories will be more about her taking
on adult reponsibilities aside from slaying. She will still be
power girl though when needed.
Willow & Tara will have some issues to deal with. Willow will
have some form of negative consequences of her new power.
RE: Rufus post, here is my speculation about Dawn. Dawn will get
magical training with or without aproval. I believe she will start
studying on her own or get coaching from the Doc( no Dawn! )....:)
After she has done a few spells, Dawn will cast something that
causes serious problems. Buffy will find out; big confrontation,
then eventually Dawn will get official training, IE without sneaking
around. Dawn & Spike, I like the big brother feel. Dawn is headstrong
and rebellious, Spike will help her in any way he can; lots of
possibilities there. Hope Spike will be around next season, otherwise
Dawn won't have anyone who talks to her impartially, plus Spike
is interesting!
Dawns magic will be more powerfull than most wiches because of
the Key. Using mental powers requires using more of your brain/subconcious,
Dawns subconcouis should be able to access the Key. My reasoning
is this: either the Key is part of Dawn(equivilant to Dawn being
part of the Key via manifestation), or Dawn can exist independantly
of the Key and she is storing it in some metaphisical sense. In
either situation, the key is always where Dawn is, so it will
influence her if only indirectly. An analogy, exposure to magic
will change you magically, exposure to radiation will change your
genetics via mutations of cellular dna(not good,go with comic
book mutations for this analogy :). So Dawns magic will be unusuall
for the Buffyverse: Hmmmm....I don't know about that, Buffyverse
magic has a lot of variety!
In season seven Dawn will start to gain concious control of the
Key part of herself. This will be similar to Buffy and her discovery
of the First Slayer and general self discovery of this season.
I don't Know how Joss can top a God as a villian, wait and see
I guess! Dawn will do something Godlike for the season finaly
of season seven, unless there is a season eight...there were comments
below about "Dawn of a new age",maby Dawn banishing
all demons, or closing the Hellmouth.
I think the Key is like a ring of wishes, as many wishes as you
want!...Naaa....Seriously I think it can alter reality like Willows
spell in Something Blue or Jonathans spell. I think the monks
used that power to create Dawn, not a seperate spell. The Key
is probably more powerfull than Glory is now, but she is a crippled
God. Poor Glory is such a victim!...Ha!
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[> Re: Alone (spiral spoilers) -- Phil HV, 18:48:59 05/13/01
Sun
~~~~"So everyone and everything she has ever relied on has
failed Dawn. She has nothing left. Nothing but herself.
In the end she is alone, like the rest of us."~~~~
Reminds me of B2. The whole parallelism between what whistler
says before and what Angels says during the final battle.
::::::::::::::: BUFFY: "I can deal." (Looks at the sword,
at Whistler) "I got nothing left to lose."
She exits. He watches her go, genuine sadness suffusing his gaze.
WHISTLER:" Wrong, kid. You got one more thing." ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Then later the foreshadowing is validated. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ANGEL: "That's everything, huh? No weapons, no friends. No
hope. Take all that away and what's left?"
Tense moment... Attempted murder...
BUFFY:"Me."
:::::::::::::::::
Greatness always resurfaces. Seems to also bring reference to
what April said as she died.
"It's always darkest before...."
Triumph just wouldn't be the same without despair.
Maybe Ben will suprise us -- Jack_McCoy,
09:30:23 05/13/01 Sun
From the rumors and discussions I have read on the internet, I
find this doubtful, but I am kind of hoping that Ben will sacrifice
himself to save Dawn. That he realizes that just because he in
an innocent, that doesn't necessarily mean he is entitled to a
happy ending. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.
On the other hand, having one of the Scoobies or Buffy kill him
might be more dramatic and have far reaching results. What do
you all think?
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[> Re: Maybe Ben will suprise us -- FanMan, 13:13:57 05/13/01
Sun
Spoilers mention Ben having a battle with Glory and dieing. Unknown
how that would work considering Glory would have gotten rid of
him long ago if she could. Ben is in a situation similar to Angel
vs Angelus. Think of how skitso Angel would be if he had to fight
a battle of wills weekly with Angelus. If Angel were taken over
weekly by Angelus for the last century his personality would be
different. Hmmmm...this is not what I started writing about, but
how would Angel Deal? Suicide? Become cicical and selfish like
Ben? Insanity? It is a whole scenerio that could have happened
if the curse were phrased differently....:) It seems that Glorys
curse is to be trapped in a mortal subconcious like Angelus.....Hmmm!
Well I did not answer the question, but analogies can provide
insight.
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[> Buffy, Dawn and Ben -- Unsung Hero, 13:15:45 05/13/01 Sun
I think there is a good possibility that Ben will sacrafice himself.
He spoke of bad things happening to good people, and he likes
Buffy and Dawn a lot. I don't think he has what it takes to be
a killer, but to stop Glory and the world from ending.......perhaps
Ben could be a hero yet. But, one must remember: Buffy is the
hero of the story. Dawn and Ben might have what it takes, but
it's Buffy who solves the problems. Always has, always will. I
doubt either will commit suicide, because Buffy needs to be the
hero. She'll kill Ben, or Dawn, simply so she can add it to her
list of sacrafices.
Buffy has always been the hero. It is her show. Realisitically,
folks, we have to expect the same. Buffy's current morals may
seem like she doesn't have what it takes.....but Buffy has always
done what she had to. Killing Dawn may be a lousy thing to do,
and it may not make sense that Buffy would do it.....but she will
solve the problem, she will save the day. The show is called Buffy:The
Vampire Slayer.
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[> [> Re: Buffy, Dawn and Ben -- VanMoodySenior, 20:23:19
05/13/01 Sun
I see the self sacrifice to save the world as a very good possibility.
Or he might ask Buffy to do it for him if he doesn't have the
chance. This is a lot like the Christ symbolism that is depicted
in a lot of literary works. It would be touching for one person
to die for all of humanity in Buffy.
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[> Re: Maybe Ben will suprise us -- Ramo, 15:21:57 05/14/01
Mon
Ben became a doctor in order to help and save people. Well, hummm...
maybe if he want's to save tons of people, he should kill himself.
I know it's not that simple, but Ben said that he's been in a
prison all his life. If Dawn were killed and the key was destroyed,
he'd be stuck with Glory for the rest of his life anyway. I just
hope he'll have the courage to do something right.
Ramblings on the Key, the Monks
and Buffy's moral dilemma -- katy, 09:50:13 05/13/01 Sun
I have read several comments regarding the nature of the key,
the "flaw" in making the key human, and the moral dilemma
Buffy has to face (kill Ben or Dawn). So I thought I would address
some aspects of these topics here...
I think the monks knew exactly what they were doing when they
transformed the key into human form and sent it to Buffy. However,
the full extent of their reasoning for doing so may not have been
revealed yet. First, the General claims the monks were fools for
believing they could harness the power of the key for the forces
of light. How do we know the monks failed? Should we accept what
the general says as truth? Here is a guy who doesn't even know
why or how the key was created. All he knows is that the key has
the power to tear down dimensional walls, perhaps only one possible
function of the key. What if the key is actually serving a function
right now? For some reason, I believe the key could be the source
of Buffy's power (I do not know how that would logistically work
out though). Or in a previous post, someone posted a theory about
how the key's potential to do good could only be unlocked under
the guide of a human. Anyway, back on topic...Why did the monks
make the key human (albeit Buffy's sister) and send it to the
Slayer? Perhaps the answer is very simple and straight-forward.
Buffy will protect Dawn at all costs simply because she is her
sister. We have already seen the devastation caused by Glory in
her search for the key. And now the entire universe is apparently
at risk. And yet Buffy never considers destroying Dawn and the
key. For her, it is not even an option. Buffy will protect Dawn
with her life. So, I would say the monks were extremely clever
for transforming the key into Buffy's sister. It was their best
and perhaps only option to ensure protection for the key (hopefully).
How could Buffy destroy her own sister? If the key was some inanimate
object like a bicylce pump, Buffy would have no qualms about destroying
it. Although I do believe the key has potential to serve the forces
of good (perhaps it is even extremely instrumental), Buffy does
not yet know this and would therefore have no reservations with
destroying a bicycle pump to save the universe. As some people
have mentioned, making the key human leads to some inherent "flaws."
However, maybe the monks perceived these to be a trade-off to
ensure the best possible protection for the key.
Interestingly, the transformation of the key into a conscious
living entity has begun to spur a moral debate with the revelation
that Ben, like Dawn, may be too be an innocent in all of this.
Buffy is currently faced with 2 options: 1) Kill Ben and Glory
dies 2) Kill Dawn and the key is destroyed (and the monks have
failed) Buffy's probable choice: Kill Ben (the key is preserved)
If the monks transformed the key into an inanimate object (or
anything she had no emotional attachement to), Buffy would have
the following options: 1) Kill Ben and Glory dies 2) Kill the
bicycle pump... (and the key is destroyed) Buffy's probable choice:
Kill the pump (and the monks would have failed to protect the
key)
I know this was drawn-out discussion but my point is that I don't
think the monks are given enough credit. I do not think they overlooked
the "flaw" in their design to transform the key into
a human being. They merely accepted the fact that as a human,
Dawn would have free will. Perhaps the monks knew Buffy may be
faced with the decision to either destroy the key or kill an innocent
(Ben). I am assuming here that the monks, like the knights, knew
of the existence of the newborn-male created to imprison Glory.
Anyway, Buffy is now faced with a moral dilemma. Should Buffy
kill Dawn? Or Ben? Both are innocents. ahhhh....those sneaky little
monks
(then again, i think I remember reading something months ago that
mentioned how at the end of the season Buffy would have to make
a decision between two options, but then at the last second she
realizes there is another option)
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[> Only Drawback... -- Solitude1056, 14:38:24 05/13/01 Sun
It seems to me that if a God, once trapped in mortal flesh, cannot
escape (except by some arcane once-in-a-lifetime ritual) and thus
will die when the body dies... it'd be the same for the Key. Putting
the Key into flesh was a huge risk of the part of the Monks, but
it's possibly also the only way the Monks could have assured the
Key's destruction, if it came to that. You can't hide something
forever, they might've figured, and they can't find a way to destroy
it (and the Knights haven't claimed otherwise, just that they've
been trying to find it), but I'm not sure on those last two parts.
I just wonder: the Monks may have gambled that Buffy would protect
the Key ably, and might also provide a means to discover a positive
use for the Key. But hedging their bets wouldn't be unexpected,
if the chance was that great that Glory could track the Key down
(which she did, or at least the general location). Could it be
that the Monks are the ones who somehow alerted the Knights of
the Key's general location, as a back-up plan? If Glory got the
Key, Buffy alone might not be enough, and the Knights would have
to do the deed instead.
Just a thought, since it's seemed odd to me that the Knights have
popped up unexpectedly each time. Just how in the hell did they
know to look for an RV on a dirt road in California, anyway? ;)
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[> [> They were monitoring the CB! :) -- rowan, 18:47:00
05/13/01 Sun
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[> [> Re: Only Drawback... -- freshwater, 08:39:20 05/14/01
Mon
Someone, in a post further down, mentioned something to the effect
that there was a purpose to the monks' making the key a self-aware
human, not just for the Buffy-sister protection factor. I thought
that was a good point.
We've been talking a lot about what Buffy should do, who should
she kill given very few options. But maybe Buffy (or even Glory)
is not the powerful one here, the one who will make the big decisions,
save the day. The monks "gave the key form, made it human."
They didn't put the key in Dawn, they made the key into Dawn.
I think this is a significant difference. Glory is "in"
Ben, they aren't the same "spiritual" substance, they
don't share a common will. Dawn is the Key. What do we know about
the Key's substance? It's energy, it has power. In many systems
of belief this could be a good description of the soul. Now the
monks have formed this energy into a human, which almost by definition,
has free will. Again, many belief systems would equate free will
with the most definitive aspect of the human soul. How connected
is the Key Energy and Dawn's free will if both can be said to
be her soul? I would think that the two powers would be as close
as other faculties of the soul (I know, I know, again, "There
will be no St. Thomas Aquinas at this table..." but, hey,
if we've got medieval knights, I can bring up medieval philosophy
;) !), like memory or understanding. So, just as the will has
power over these in regular, everyday people, in Dawn's case her
will should have power over the energy of the Key.
My point is that Dawn may be the one with the power to solve all
of this. If the Key can be used by a sentient being, like Glory,
to end the Universe, or perhaps by some other being to bring about
some ultimate good, why shouldn't Dawn be able to access that
power herself, since, if any will could have power over the Key,
it would be hers? Maybe this is the root of her very strong interest
in magick, she might sense that her will has access to some incredible
power. Again, I think this is why the monks made the key human,
and a human raised in a loving family. Dawn has a conscience,
and Dawn has unbelievable power. I think it will be interesting
to see if she is able to use it.
My thought: Dawn realizes the good power of the key, casts Glory
back into hell, releases Ben from his torment, no innocent dies.
Just a thought.
-freshwater
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[> [> [> Aquinas -- Masquerade, 14:35:39 05/15/01 Tue
Hey, I'm just waiting for someone to give Aquinas a Buffyverse
spin so I don't have togive Tom the brush-off anymore. Any suggestions,
comments, or treatises are welcome!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Aquinas -- freshwater, 11:25:18 05/16/01
Wed
If ever there existed someone as crazy and mixed up as to be able
to feel a deep connection between Augustinian Platonic mysiticism,
medieval Scholasticism, and the Buffyverse, that fool would probably
be me ;)
If you're at all interested, I'll see if I can put together some
type of treatise or summary or something for the site or your
amusement :)
I won't make any time promises, but I'll drop you a note when
I have something.
-freshwater
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[> [> [> [> [> Much coolness...let me know! --
Masquerade, 16:08:30 05/16/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> There will be no Thomas Aquinas
at this table ;) -- Wiccagrrl, 01:08:33 05/19/01 Sat
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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[> Re: Ramblings on the Key, the Monks and Buffy's moral dilemma
-- LoriAnn, 04:22:57 05/14/01 Mon
katy, you're doing the same thing Buffy did in Spiral: creating
a forced choice, either/or, Dawn/Ben, Run/Die, with no possibility
of any other options. It was wrong for her and is usually wrong,
a logical fallacy. Neither we nor she knows what Buffy's options
are. Granted, what you say seems to be the case, but don't count
on it. If it does become necessary to kill either Dawn or Ben
AND if Ben is truly an innocent in all this, which I doubt, the
morality of the issue is clear: Dawn dies, Ben survives. Dawn's
nature is the cause of the problem; killing an innocent to keep
the key from being used is murder and, as I think we'll see, wouldn't
keep the key from being used by someone else anyway. Yet you're
right, Buffy would not kill her sister, except perhaps as she
did Angel, at the last second when there was no possibility of
any other action.
Did Gunn Make the right Choice?
-- Kurt, 09:51:41 05/13/01 Sun
By going with the Angel Investigation crowd to save Cordy was
he abandoning the friends he grew up with?
I can understand him wanting to help in saving Cordy, after all
she came to rescue him with no concern of her own welfare once.
There is a bond that has grown there.
But if he dies (or can't get back), who will protect his friends
back in the neighborhood?
This decision on Gunn's part was kind of glossed over, but I think
it significant. What do others think?
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[> Re: Did Gunn Make the right Choice? -- katy, 10:16:02 05/13/01
Sun
I have always wondered why he initially abandoned his friends
in the first place. He started out helping Angel Investigations
occasionally and then all of a sudden he is working with them
full-time. Sure, he gets paid there but he does not strike me
as character who would be motivated by money (if you can call
it that). So perhaps, Gunn feels as though he would be more useful
working with a vampire with a soul and a girl who receives visions
from TPTB. Maybe he feels like he is fighting the "war"
on a larger scale with Angel and Co. rather than killing average
street vamps day in and day out with his friends. However, I think
the show never really addresses his motivations for switching
groups. And like you said, the writers also glossed-over his decision
for helping to save Cordy. Obviously he would want to help her
and he was torn over the decision. But the second he made up his
mind, he was completely fine.
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[> [> Gunn- The man, the myth....the something else that
starts with M -- Unsung Hero, 13:04:52 05/13/01 Sun
While it seemed glossed over, it doesn't mean it always will be.
There will be consequences for it, I'm sure. Gun chose to fight
Angel Investigations because he believed in Angel, hence his share
of the devistation when Angel fired them.
Gunn was motivated more by his Sister dying, and then Angel comes
with his crew: a group of people willing to sacrafice it all not
only for the world but for the individuals. Angel Investigations
fought to prevent things like the death of his sister- they care
for the individual, they help people. World saving comes second
to the saving of a persons soul- including his own.
Cordelia's actions spoke a lot to him in "First Impressions"-
she was willing to risk her own life for his own, for his soul.
That proved to him that while his crew was important, the mission
of Angel Investigations was even more important.
As for his going to save Cordelia and the choice being glossed
over, I think it was supposed to be a no brainer. His crew may
need him, but Cordelia needed him much more. Angel Investigations
had proven themselves to him, they were worth his time, and even
his life. And he has faith in the team to get his ass home.
Of course, this is my opinion. I could be wrong.
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[> [> [> would that last M be "mutha..."? --
Solitude1056, 14:32:18 05/13/01 Sun
Gunn is a character - from what I've seen - who makes his decisions
carefully. And once he's done so, he doesn't regret them or stop
until he's reached the next decision point. This past episode
was out of character for him, because it made him stop & recognize
that maybe his decisions weren't as clear-cut or as settled as
he'd thought. He had obligations. Recognizing that, the next question
is: who is my greatest obligation to? I'm not surprised it's Cordy,
since she went out on a limb for him in the past. He seems like
the kind to return that, like he has with Wesley post gunshot.
But Gunn's also got a streak of devil-may-care & in it for the
adventure, and he seems to realize innately that Angel's crew
can be inventive when necessary, and has gotten out of close scrapes
in the past & probably will manage to do it again, somehow!
suicide? -- Morgane, 12:45:29
05/13/01 Sun
Had anyone ever think about Dawn suicide? I mean, maybe Buffy
wouldn't be able to kill Dawn even to save the world but what
about Dawn? I believe she really has the guts to kill herself
for that matter. She keeps saying that everything that happened
is her fault, and she doesn't get over that idea even though Spike,
Buffy and Ben had tried to convince her. Guilt is a good motivation
for suicide, isn't it? Beside, it's mostly the only character
I can see dying this year (maybe Anya but her death wouldn't apperetenly
made a major difference)! Dawn had appeared in the Buffyverse
this year in relation with the big bad of the season. As we have
seen before, the big bad is always for one season only, so we
can reasonnably think that Glory won't be there next year! So,it's
not impossible that Dawn, Glory's motivation, won't be part of
the show next year either! Plus I don't really see Buffy as a
mother! I mean, she has never been number one with daily responsibilities
and I don't think that's this kind of show, I like to watch the
vampire slayer every week, but the super-mom, I don't know!
We have established that Buffy probably won't kill Dawn, but I
really believe that Dawn would be ready to sacrifice herself!
And the show must go on!
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[> Re: suicide? spoilers for Weight of the World -- Rufus,
14:31:53 05/13/01 Sun
In the spoilers there is mention of Buffy sacrificing herself
for Dawn...but question...if Dawns blood is what opens the portal
to chaos, how will Buffys blood be what closes it? At the end
the WotW Giles finds out that to stop the chaos Dawn has to be
killed....so is Buffys gift one she gives to the world, or to
herself?
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[> [> Re:Neither -- darrenK, 14:35:02 05/14/01 Mon
In Spiral, Buffy says "It just keeps coming--Glory, Mom,
Riley, [etc]."
Death will be the Gift that eventually stops it and brings her
peace. Until that time, she is the Slayer and has to endure whatever
it takes to meet her responsibility.
It's my opinion that the death of Dawn will not be necessary.
It's also my opinion that the death of Buffy will not be necessary.
Everyone else could be fair game.
dK
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[> Re: suicide? -- FanMan, 14:32:23 05/13/01 Sun
Yes Dawn has the guts to kill herself. If she did it would be
suicide in the form of a nobil sacrifice. Dawn is not a coward,
guilt would not be the reason. Dawn could kill herself for moral
reasons. Loyalty to Buffy. The whole world.
Joss planned to have Joyce die way back in season three. Dawn
was mentioned in season three also. I think it would not be a
good idea to kill a major character after only one season. Joss
has several reasons to keep Dawn around: teen audiance having
someone to empathise with, the other characters are adults so
they will not make childish mistakes. As I have mentioned in several
other posts the Key is an open ended plot device...an innocent
with godlike power that villains will try to kidnap or corupt.
In realife big sisters do act like mothers in some ways. This
is realistic. The show follows Buffy progressing through hardships
of life and maturing. Personally I would miss any character if
they were killed. Joss plots way ahead though: he had probably
chosen who would die in the Gift a year and a half ago. Joss is
evil, he can sacrifice the character he chooses regardless of
fan preferences. Joss is a genius, that is why us fans love the
characters of the show. For the real fans it is more than couch
potato entertainment: we love the characters and cry when they
cry!
I APPRECIATE YOUR ENTHUSIASM!, HOWEVER TOO MANY EXPLANATATION
POINTS IS LIKE SHOUTING! IT IS ALMOST AS BAD AS ALL CAPITALS!....:)
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[> [> LOL (OT) -- Solitude1056, 15:23:53 05/13/01 Sun
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ack*cough*sputter
- dammit. I think I just used up my quota for this decade. *grumble*
(hehe)
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[> [> Re: suicide? -- rowan, 18:47:00 05/14/01 Mon
I guess the reason I think a Buffy sacrifice is coming is because
if they need to stop the apocalypse by ending Dawn's life, and
the essence of Dawn's keyness is distilled through her blood,
and the apocalypse is stopped when her blood flow is stopped,
the only person who shares her blood is Buffy. Therefore, when
the monks made the Key with the Summers blood, they also (in a
sense) made Buffy the Key as well (as well as Joyce, too).
So unless Hank Summers shows up...
My thoughts on Buffy's decisions
in "Spiral" -- Unsung Hero, 13:40:43 05/13/01 Sun
Ok...so here I go posting unpopular opinions. Oi.
The Scooby Gang are not Buffy's lackies. They're allowed to question
decisions, especially if they're wrongly made. The Scooby Gang
are a team, and while Buffy may be the leader in the long run,
the SG has always been about democracy, making plans and decisions
as a group. It's when Buffy orders people around that things DON'T
go right. Always has been that way.
Buffy only has the pressure she puts upon herself. SHE decided
to take them all along, SHE chose to run instead of stay and fight
and SHE chose to angrily shrug off all suggestions to the point
where they were all being shouted at instead of being worked with.
They're a team, not an army. People keep refering to Buffy as
a general. She's not. She may lead the SG, but they're all equal.
And the SG are college kids, NOT soldiers. Buffy can act like
a general all she wants, but they're not soliders, they're kids.
They volunteer for this, remember? Buffy is thier friend, not
thier general. And how were they supposed to support her? They
didn't know what the plan was, where they were going or what they
were going to do. And as for specifics:
Xander: He was sick in the RV. How was he supposed to help her?
And as far as his providing an alternative, he did: They don't
run. And he's not a soldier, he forgot the training he recieved
in "Halloween" in "The Initiative"
Giles: Giles suggested they stay and think about this. Not run
blindly into the desert.
Willow: They DO need Buffy. If Buffy was a general, she wouldn't
go catatonic. She would have been thinking again. Willow tried
to be the voice of reason, and was treated like the sidekick.
Again.
Tara: Not her fault. SHE sacraficed for the good of the SG.
Spike: He's evil.
Anya: What does she know? All she knows is that Buffy is the one
to go to.
Buffy didn't need to do what she did, and she didn't need to take
them along. She demanded to be obeyed, yet she didn't tell them
what they were doing. Of course they would question her- she was
acting like a crazy woman, and not only that, but a frightened
crazy woman. She's the leader- she acts scatterbrained, they act
scatterbrained.
I agree Buffy's gone through a lot- but that's her problem, not
thiers. Thier lives are on the line, just like hers, and they
are swamped with responsibilites,too. Buffy's not special, she
feels the same as all the others. They're scared, and she's the
chosen one, the only one who's supposed to have a grip on everything.
I don't have sympathy for Buffy. She should be dealing with this
better, because it's her job. She's the slayer, she's the leader,
welcome to the real world. Everyone's not going to do everything
you want in a crisis, especially your scared group of friends
who are trying to be supportive but you're dragging them through
the desert running away from a God and you've never run away before
and you're not telling them the plan or where they're going, and
then you collapse and go catatonic while they(who are not superheros)
are still staying on top of it. So Buffy has a lot of responsibility
and pressure. She needs to deal with it, not expect everyone to
blindly follow orders and take it easy on her. So I don't agree
that the SG were wrong in thier attitudes and questions, I think
Buffy was wrong in expecting them to be soldiers in a war when
they're frightened people with a few spells and a weapon or two
and they're facing down a small army of Knights and a God. She
should trust them and rely on them to back her up and she should
listen to them and organise them as a TEAM. That was the whole
theme of last season, and I believe the theme of the episode when
the Knight mentioned "Dissention in the ranks". If she
played straight with them, she wouldn't be in the same mess. They're
keeping it together, and they're the ones who shouldn't have to.
They volunteer. She HAS to.
Sorry I sound really confrontational and assholish......I wasn't
trying to, but the post just kind of sounded that way. :-) Don't
flame and hate me, please? *whimper*
Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- Leah, 13:50:55 05/13/01 Sun
Buffy was trying to do her best to protect her friends. She did
not have the choice of leaving them behind because that would
put them in danger. While yes she is the slayer, there is only
so much she can handle. She was pushed to the breaking point and
that's not her fault. It was the SG, not Buffy, who pushed themselves
into the role of soldiers by constantly asking Buffy what to do,
and while its not their fault, you can't blame Buffy either. She
had to think quickly as her world fell apart. She tried her best
to coap but ther's a limit to what even the strongest person can
handle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- DEN, 14:36:55 05/13/01 Sun
UNSUNG HERO: Glad to see SOMEONE make and support the point that
the Scoobs are a team.And even in armies, elites like the British
SAS or our Special Forces do discuss plans among themselves before
implementing them--especially when the "plan" consists
of driving a decrepit RV into the wastelands, without any explanation
of what is supposed to happen next. I'd ask too,if I were in that
kind of spot. If anything, the Scoobs were too trusting and too
supportive, unwilling to see that Buffy was not thinking anywhere
near straight and draw some consequences. Where was the "intervention"
when it was needed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- Sue, 17:03:11 05/13/01 Sun
Buffy's plan was sound. To flee was the only recourse.
Unfortunately those Knights got in the way.
There was no need for "intervention". Buffy was doing
a great job. I was quite proud of her. I can't think of how she
could have done any better.
But sometimes even when you do everything right, put all your
energy into something, try as hard as you ever have, give it your
all, things still do not turn out well.
Buffy did everything right, yet it still wasn't enough. That is
why she broke down.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in
"Spiral" -- celticross, 08:21:37 05/14/01 Mon
"Buffy did everything right, yet it still wasn't enough.
That is why she broke down."
I don't know if I would say she did everything right...I'll agree
that running away was the only good plan at the moment, because
she was right...Glory would pick them off one by one if they stayed
in Sunnydale. However, driving a battered RV into the desert isn't
the brightest idea she's had. There are greener, more hospitable,
and equally remote areas of California. The Scoobies ARE a group
of friends, not an army, but they knew Buffy was under a huge
amount of stress, and they still allowed her to make all the decisions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> DEN -- Unsung Hero, 19:17:24 05/13/01 Sun
Thanks for the support, Mate. I'm glad I didn't have to support
this end of the discussion alone. It sucks to have to do that,
I did it for a long time at BAPS when I was the only one who felt
that Spike needed to earn redemption....it was horrible. So, cheers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Decisions -- Scott L., 14:39:01 05/13/01 Sun
Don't worry, I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to use
what you say against your other words.
Unsung Hero, you show clearly that Buffy is the leader of this
group, yet you don't want to call her a general. A general is
a leader who gets his or her troops to follow orders despite their
objections. That's what Buffy has done. She made a decision. She
weighed the risks and she made a decision. Her troops followed
her.
Could she have handled it better? Yep. But she's not perfect,
she's our Buffy.
You are upset with Buffy for caving in at the end of the episode.
Things didn't go her way and she appears dazed by it.
Let's try a real life comparison. You made made a decision to
post strong statements that you knew might be unpopular. You thought
it was in your best interest and (presumably) the best interest
of others to present your opinions. In the end, you ask us not
to attack you for stating your opinions. Think about how you might
have responded if your decision to post had not gone as you wanted?
Would you fight back at the flamers? Would you flee from the board?
Or would you be struck with a time of indecision about what to
do?
Granted, the decision of posting, or not posting -- being insulted
or leaving the board for a time, aren't the high drama of Buff
and the gang. Buffy makes life and death decisions. Her fight
or flee instinct is proportionately dramatic. So should her moment
of indecision. If it is all easy, it isn't heroic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Decisions -- FanMan, 15:03:07 05/13/01 Sun
None of the SG has had to actually leave town because of a villian.
If the Scoobies have a problem with demons they get Buffy. The
SG is good at planning when the plans include Buffy fighting the
bad guy. Buffy running is completely outside of their assumptions
of her behavior.
Buffy is not a general with superiors to get backup and orders
from. A military general reports to someone else. The presidant
has authority over the armed forces, but he doesn't make all the
decions and carry all of the responsiblity like Buffy. She is
a leader, but she does not have training in tactics and leadership.
A military person with tactical training could make a plan on
autopilot; not saying it would be the best plan. Regardless of
Rilys flaws he knows military tactics: he could have given Buffy
valid options and advice on methods of tactical retreat.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- OnM, 14:56:48 05/13/01 Sun
Your points are well taken, but I think your basic error comes
in assuming that in the 'real' world, generals always have a plan,
and a backup for that plan, etc. etc. Or, that they always have
great instincts, always know what to do, or that their troops
always follow them unquestioningly because they have supreme confindence
in their leadership.
One only has to look at any real war, fought anytime throughout
history, to see that this is nonsense. Soldiers, whether they
are leaders or followers, are humans, and human make mistakes,
sometimes really serious ones.
Also, no one can survive endlessly under increasing pressure,
every person has a breaking point. Again, to think otherwise is
fantasy. From what I've read spoiler-wise, next week's ep will
see Buffy pull out of her brainlocked state (with Willow's help)
and go on to eventually save the day in ep 100.
This too makes sense. If your troops are loyal to you, and to
their cause, they will help their leaders in times of stress,
not just sit there waiting for instructions-- Semper Fi, right?
Finally, even if you voluteer to join the army, you are there
to do your job, just like if you were drafted. It has always been
clear that the Scoobies support Buffy's calling, and that they
do so willingly. They understand the danger, and accept it.
As you can see from the responses so far, it is pretty rare to
get flamed at this board-- so fire away if you have something
to say. Your post wasn't rude, it was just a contrary opinion
to many, which is perfectly acceptable.
OT-- you mentioned in one of your previous posts that you are
a film critic. Professionally? Just curious. Feel free to answer,
or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- June, 16:45:27 05/13/01 Sun
"People keep refering to Buffy as a general. She's not."
Yes she is. She is the Slayer. She is the leader. Now when it
comes to non slayer stuff fine. But there are times when you follow
your leader without question. Because she says so. And that should
be explaination enough.
"She may lead the SG, but they're all equal. "
They are all equal but she is the LEADER. There is time for discussion,
and there is time for decision making. Discusion time is over.
"I agree Buffy's gone through a lot- but that's her problem,
not theirs."
They are friends. Close friends. So close they can practically
be called family. Friends share problems as well as joy. Her problems
are their problems and vice-versa.
"She didn't need to take them along."
No, I guess she could have taken Dawn and left the rest letting
Glory kill them one by one.
"I don't have sympathy for Buffy. "
Oh, I do. Sure I feel let down, but then I realize that Buffy
did the best she could. She didn't mean to go catatonic just like
Giles didn't mean to get hit by that spear. She has given all
that she has, yet it just still wasn't enough. I have a world
of sympathy for Buffy. It is really sad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- Rufus, 16:53:28 05/13/01 Sun
The Scooby Gang aren't anyones lackies. What you have here with
these young adults is family. The whole theme of this year has
been family no matter what form that family takes. You have Xander
from a less than nuturing home, Willow who has raised herself,
Anya who is newly mortal, and Tara who had to make a new family
with the Scoobies. Add the patient father figure in Giles. The
thing holding them together isn't the fact that they are an army,
but the fact that they love each other. They have joined together
this time for Dawn, to protect someone they know wasn't real before
a few months ago. The final addition is Spike who has been separated
from vampire society by the chip in his head and his love for
Buffy....he has found a reluctant home with the SG. In Spiral
I found it most interesting how carefully they set up the situation
to look like a war situation with Knights and Generals....with
a contrast to the SG who seemed to have no weapons. In fact Buffy
finished off the Knights with their own weapons of war. The SG
isn't an army, they were never meant to be an army. They look
to Buffy not because she is the highest ranking officer but because
they know she is the most powerful and has the best instincts.
What binds them so closely together isn't military skill...but
love. Xanders references to the army come from the faint memories
from Halloween and the comic book "Sgt. Rock". The difference
between the army of Knights and the SG is that with all the men
and horses they couldn't defeat the slayer and her family. They
aren't fighting a war over turf, but a little girl who may be
an instrument of Chaos. The power the SG have that is the strongest
isn't magic or slayer power but the love they have for each other.
Buffy is no General, but she didn't get captured either. Buffy
may not always have the answer, but how many Generals that young
with no battle experience would have all the answers? If Buffy
has gone catatonic it's because she never volunteered for anything
she does what she does as a slayer because it is right. If the
Knights never attacked the RV the ten men would be alive, they
attacked unarmed people with the purpose of destroying a little
girl not for what she had done but because of what she has the
potential to do. They have declared war on Buffys family and she
will do anything to protect them. She has the weight of the world
on her shoulders and won't always do what she should, but her
heart is in the right place.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- LoriAnn, 17:30:54 05/13/01 Sun
It seems odd that you "welcome [Buffy] to the real world"
when, from what you wrote, you seem to be living in some perfect
place full of perfect people that certainly isn't the real world.
People are not perfect, not even the chosen one, and nothing is
black or white except piano keys.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Buffy, the world of posting and film critic-being
-- Unsung Hero, 19:13:41 05/13/01 Sun
I feel that the theme and tone of the episode was that Buffy wasn't
doing things right. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out the
intent of a scene from my time spent in acting classes and watching
and studying a LOT of movies, and I detected the intent that we,too,were
supposed to question Buffy and her decisions. I think we're supposed
to see her scared.
I saw Buffy acting rashly, and making those rash actions because
of fear. Giles and the others were prepared to make a stand, but
she was not. She was stressing HERSELF out. And that's what I
was meaning to say. I never claimed she was perfect, I never claimed
anyone was perfect, or that the world was perfect.
I've always seen Buffy as a flawed character. She's constantly
changed by different writers takes on the character from flightly
girl to dark superhero quite often. And I see Buffy as a whiner.
She was forced into a job, and rather than reacting heroically,
she complains and reminds everyone of all the sacrafices she has
made, but ignores what the others risk. Xander's broken quite
a few bones. Willow has lost two lovers to the supernatural world
she was involved in, as well as losing much of her innocence in
the process. Spike was tortured. Giles,too. But these aren't mentioned.
She just expects them to take it because they volunteered for
it, yet she complains left and right about her life and duties.
In the episode I saw that all repeated. No matter the soundness
of Buffy's plan, she still didn't tell them anything. And before
people say she didn't have time, they were on the road for a while
before the Knights attacked. She could have explained, she could
have let them in on everything instead of leaving them to worry
on the sanity of thier "General". Buffy was not acting
right, and THAT is why they question. And I support them. Because
I would,too.
If I had been flamed, as someone asked me, I would have responded
polietly and added more evidence to support my POV. If no one
listened, then fine. However, I only added the statement not for
my own gain, but rather to keep this civil and prevent people
from being offended or upset. I like it here and like the people.
:-)
Buffy's catatonia: Things fall apart, strong people can break.
I can see that. I know that, I've seen it a many times. But I
still think Buffy should have gone after them right away, and
held it together. But I'm willing to concede that point, because
I think it might be from my personal Bias.
And I'm not a professional film critic, no. I did it for several
years in high school for the paper and have self taught myself
a lot about film and television. Not exactly a credible source,
true, but......better than nothing, as I see it.
Of course that's just my opinion- I could be bias.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy, the world of posting and film critic-being
-- Lynn, 19:48:42 05/13/01 Sun
We all would have liked to react the way you say Buffy should
have, but the fact of the matter is that none of us know how we
would react until we are in that particular situation.
I feel for Buffy very much, always have. I cut her a lot of slack,
for she has lost as much as her friends have since she became
a slayer, and she has had to repeatedly sacrifice her own happiness
to save the world. She may whine some, but she does it. She's
held it together for 4 1/2 years, but she finally cracked. And
no wonder, finding out her sister really isn't her sister, but
she loves her just as she really was, her mother becoming very
sick, getting better, but then dying anyway, and now Glory has
taken her sister from her, and she doesn't have much time left
to save her. All this, and she's barely 20 years old. That's what
helps me keep it all in perspective.
Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy, the world of posting and film critic-being
-- Robert, 20:37:31 05/13/01 Sun
I just want to comment on how you said you don't see Buffy as
heroic and that you think of her as whiney. My take on Buffy is
quite the opposite I see her as very heroic because she chooses
to go through with her calling when she can walk away. I don't
see her as a whiner I see her as a strong women who has decided
to give her all to protect the world and especially the ones she
loves. The reason Buffy made all the decisions in Spiral was that
everyone was going to her asking what they should do when she
clearly did not know. The only other character giving options
was Spike who's decisions would have ended up getting most of
them killed. The decision to run was a sound one and if she would
have left any of the SG in Sunnydale they might have been killed
off by Glory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy, the world of posting and film critic-being
-- Boxdman, 23:35:16 05/13/01 Sun
I don't see the theme and tone of the episode as Buffy not doing
things right. I definitely felt the fear, that was part of it.
The other part was not Buffy not doing things right but Buffy
not thinking she was doing things right. Hence the scene with
Dawn where Dawn says she is doing the right things and Buffy questions
herself, and then again with Giles when he tells her how proud
he is of her. The questioning by the rest of the SG is just a
way of showing their fear.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- change, 04:07:29 05/14/01 Mon
I don't mean to flame you, but I did want to respond to a couple
of points in your post.
> Buffy only has the pressure she puts upon herself. How about
the pressure caused by having her mother die, repeatedly having
the shit kicked out of her by a god, knowing that if you lose
the world is destroyed, and knowing that you don't have a chance?
> Buffy didn't need to do what she did, and she didn't need
to take them along.
I think the decision to run was the correct one. Glory has beaten
Buffy at every encounter. Glory knows where the SG lives. Glory
has a small army of minions to search through Sunnydale to find
the SG. Glory can raise snake creatures, and probably other things,
to help in the search. The SG couldn't stay in Sunnydale. Running
was the only reasonable decision.
I have to agree that Buffy didn't need to take the rest of the
SG along. She could have sent them out of town in different directions.
However, she needs Willow. Willow is the only other member of
the SG that was ever able phase Glory. Also, it would have been
possible that Glory could track one group down. For example, suppose
Glory tacked down Xander and Anya. Without Buffy and Willow to
help, Glory would have killed them easily.
> I agree Buffy's gone through a lot- but that's her problem,
not thiers.
I disagree. Buffy's state is their problem. Buffy and Willow are
the only two members of the SG that have any chance against Glory.
Anything that prevents them from fighting Glory leads to the destruction
of the World. So Buffy's problems are everyone's problems.
> I don't have sympathy for Buffy. She should be dealing with
this better, because it's her job.
Huh? Buffy is suppose to deal with losing her mother, her lover,
and her sister. She's suppose to deal with waging an impossible
fight against an opponent that can crush her like an insect knowing
that if she loses the world is destroyed. She's suppose to deal
with finding out her sister is some sort of imposter and that
all of her memories of her are fake. I don't think so....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> thinkin' -- Unsung Hero, 15:35:26 05/14/01 Mon
I still think we were supposed to question Buffy, like the scooby
gang did. I saw the script moving her to act rashly and in a state
of panic, hence the scooby gang's state of unrest with her decisions.
I don't see Buffy as heroic. Buffy never just does the job, deals
with the issues she needs to- she whines and moans and talks about
all the sacrafices she makes, not including her Mother which had
nothing to do with being the slayer. Buffy has always been a teenage
who just happens to have the world revolve around her and instead
of heroicly doing the job, fighting the evil and then letting
it go, she decides to dwell in it, and use it as an alibi to get
away from her own flaws. Angel is heroic- he choses to do his
job, choses to risk his life nightly, and he keeps it to himself,
he rolls with the punches and forges on. Same with comic characters-
Spider-Man realised that with great power came great responsibility,
but he doesn't go to his friends and family and always bring up
how he has to risk his life and fight evil. He doesn't say "I'm
sorry I was late getting home but I had a fight with Doc Ock while
saving the world and all....." Buffy likes to play the martyr,
and that is not heroic.
I don't mean to upset anyone, I'm just sticking to my interpretation
of a ficitional character, and I hope that I haven't made any
enemies. I find the discussion stimulating. :-) Thanks for debating
with me and not flaming. I appreciate it. I still disagree with
most of you on this matter, but I love the show, I love the characters
and the setting, and I can't wait for the season finale. Thanks
for not crucifying me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy moans and bitches, Angel broods and
obsesses.. same diff! -- OnM, 19:55:46 05/14/01 Mon
It may bug you that Buffy kvetches about her obligations, but
that is pretty much the way Joss wants it. I clearly recall reading
in an interview that it was always his intent to have Buffy exhibit
personality flaws, and that in his opinion this didn't make her
any less heroic, just more human, and therefore more approachable.
I'm not sure of your age, Unsung, but in the Spidey comics I read
as a kid back in the 60's, Peter seemed pretty whiney to me, not
to mention all the troubles with his girlfriend all the time.
I haven't read any for at least the last few decades, so of course
things may have changed. Then there was the Silver Surfer, who
was pretty broody, like some other fictional guy we all know.
Finally, I think that I do my own (very ordinary, extremely non-heroic)
job pretty well, but if I didn't moan and bitch about it all the
time, I'd go nuts. Classic stress outlet, being a professional
I do it only among my collegues, never among customers or the
general public.
Buffy got drafted into Slayerdom, she didn't choose it. I think
we owe her some slack bitching-wise.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Depends on your perspective... -- Solitude1056,
20:42:12 05/14/01 Mon
...I guess. I recall Faith always read Buffy as the whiney type,
bitching about how she (Buffy) had it so hard. From Faith's perspective,
Buffy didn't have much to cry about. She had a crew of close friends,
a capable and loving mother, and a watcher who was still alive.
When you're standing in Faith's shoes, I suppose any complaints
from Buffy were pretty hard to take, given that Buffy had it pretty
good in the rest of her life. For Faith, slaying - and doing it
well, by her own standards - was all she had, so she took pride
in it. For Buffy, it seems to be the reverse: she takes pride
and happiness from the rest of her life, but the slayage part
gets to her sometimes.
Perhaps this sort of two-sides issue makes sense to me, since
my sister's a starving artist yet loves doing art like nothing
else. And she positively can't stand to hear me complain about
my job. Something about the fact that I own a house, have a (sort
of) new car, and make twice as much as her &
think nothing of buying what I want, because I have the money...
to her, I've got no room to complain, because I've got everything
she wants. But in my own life, a mortgage is a burden, the car
still needs a tune-up, and dot-coms aren't the best for yobsecurity
right now! Life goes on; no matter where we are or what we have,
it's human nature to want either more, or just something else.
I envy her single-mindedness and her (scheduling) freedom, she
envies my checkbook and my (financial) freedom. So when I look
at Buffy, and the times her whineyness has shown up, that's what
I think of. If you read her as venting to close friends, and put
her in the category of someone who got pregnant & had to get married,
only to discover that she adores her kid - you can still understand
that sometimes she may wish she's still single & able to stay
out all night without a second thought.
Nothing wrong with being human, and I personally really appreciate
that Joss had no qualms about creating such a flawed, falliable
human as a hero/role-model.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Very well put, Sol, as is your
usual modal operandi! :) -- OnM, 21:09:03 05/14/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> awww, shucks :) -- Solitude1056,
06:54:04 05/15/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions in "Spiral"
-- rowan, 18:41:11 05/14/01 Mon
Boy, this thread made me think alot. There's been alot of military
metaphors floating around since the whole Initiative storyline
(Buffy referring to Xander as part of the unit to the WC, etc.),
but I think a very valid point was made that the SG is a team
and it's a team bound by the chains of love...in other words,
a family.
But Buffy has a special role in this family. She is the Slayer.
She fills a predestined role. Everyone else can stop participating
in the work part of the family (slaying) and still participate
in the personal part of the family (friendship and love) but Buffy.
She will always be the Slayer until she dies.
The SG deserve some credit too. They take on a risk of physical,
mental, and spiritual danger that they are less capable (as mortals
like us) of bouncing back from. Buffy and Spike, let's face it,
can take more punishment because of their different status.
But even so, Buffy's slayerness still, frankly, gives her special
status. She may have to give up the normal lifestyle of regular
job, husband, kids, etc.
I see her as the Team Leader. The SG looks to her for leadership
and she provides it. She looks to them for collaborative input.
Sometimes her decisions aren't right, but in any high performing
team, decision-making models swing from highly directive to highly
collaborative or consensus driven, based on the situation.
In Spiral, Buffy veered more towards the directive. Why? First,
she is emotionally invested in the outcome in a way she hasn't
been since the whole Angelus arc. Second, she feels quite strongly
that she can't beat Glory. She's gotten her butt kicked every
time. The SG don't quite seem to realize the depth of her fear
that she doesn't have a chance and they'll all be slaughtered.
They want to continue to try to fight, but Buffy's out of ideas,
and frankly, nobody in the SG had any either. They were all tapped
out. Third, they didn't have enought facts to make a really intelligent
plan. So Buffy took the lead and came up with the run plan.
Well, the plan had flaws, it's true. Dawn was taken, Giles was
injured. But the plan did achieve some major things. First, the
SG now knows what Glory's one weakness is. They have learned the
whole story of Glory's history. They know Dawn's purpose. There
is no saying whether they could have discovered any of this by
staying in Sunnydale, even if the KofB had attacked them there.
Also, the plan helped incorporate Spike into the group. He saved
Buffy's life twice in the encounter with the KofB. He's added
an extra pair of hands to lend to the fight. Buffy had to overrule
the objections of at least the male side of the SG to include
him.
So all in all, considering she has every reason to be on the verge
of a nervous breakdown, Buffy's doing okay. With a little help
from her friends.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Thoughts on this thread (was: My thoughts on Buffy's decisions
in "Spiral") -- verdantheart, 14:12:34 05/17/01 Thu
Thanks for a most interesting discussion.
It was pointed out that Buffy was meant to have character flaws.
I agree. I don't agree that because Buffy goes "from flightly
girl to dark superhero" the writing is poor or inconsistent.
These are traits that given to the character by design and are
not (IMO) necessarily incompatible. "What if there were a
young girl who were suddenly called to be a vampire-slaying superhero?
What conflicts would that set up?" Conflicts fuel drama.
Is Buffy self-involved at times? Yes, she said so herself. Does
she sometimes overlook the suffering or contributions of others?
Sometimes. Does she overreact or react overly harshly at times?
Sometimes. Has she taken on "The Weight of the World"
this season? Yes--and she's been reluctant to share the responsibility,
whether it be looking out for her mother, Dawn, or just slaying
vampires. She didn't even want to allow Riley or Spike in on the
action, and they can handle themselves. That's probably a factor
to why she's been short and pre-emptive.
Another note: On the decision to flee. It was probably a better
decision than Buffy realized, because of Glory's timetable. Of
course, Glory might still have come out for vengeance if the deadline
was missed. As to the choice of vehicle, Spike's idea of a fast
car might have helped them avoid the KofB and get a good start.
Of course Glory might go after the Scoobies in vengeance, but
in the short term, she might be too busy pursuing Dawn to worry
about them. On the other hand, by not bringing them along, Buffy
misses out on the contributions of the Scoobies, particularly
Willow. There are good arguments on both sides of this question,
as on the fight/flee decision.
Buffy brought them because she relies on them and because she
feels a certain responsibility for them. She doesn't want to feel
that she left them unprotected. The problem is that the opposing
force is so formidible that it's unrealistic to think that you
can pull everyone through OK. Buffy thinks that if she can't do
that, she's failed. She can't realize that she's only failed if
she doesn't try at all (as Willow pointed out: "Dawn. Not
dead yet.").
Just my 2 cents.
- vh
ANGELS TRUE REFLECTION -- ALLFORBUFFY,
16:34:05 05/13/01 Sun
IN THE NEXT EPISODE HIS HUMANITY IS MORE THERE IN THE HOSTS DIMENSION.
DOES THE DEMON PART EXIST MORE THERE? IS THAT INNER DEMON WHAT
A VAMPIRE WOULD LOOK LIKE WITHOUT HUMAN BODY?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: ANGELS TRUE REFLECTION -- Rufus, 17:00:43 05/13/01 Sun
I don't see it as a reflection based upon reality but how Angel
sees himself. With his conscience he realizes the enormity of
his acts. His problems aren't that of humanity not wanting him,
as much as his inner fears about his true nature. What we may
see in the next ep. may be Angels inner feelings about who and
what his is, manifesting themselves on the outside.
"The Wizard Of Oz" and
Angel's true reflection -- Leah, 13:45:33 05/13/01 Sun
At the end of "The Wizard Of Oz" each character realizes
that what they were searching for had been in them the whole time.
I think that this will be true of Angel, in that he will realize
that his humanity has always been part of him and that it is not
his reflection in a mirror but his actions that make him human.
In a past episode, I can't remember which, Angel was talking to
a man pretending to be a psychic who told Angel he had a reflection
because he is reflected in the people around him. Angel is human
because of the way he treats other people, he doesn't need a mirror
because he is percieved that way by his friends.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: "The Wizard Of Oz" and Angel's true reflection
-- Halcyon, 06:37:37 05/15/01 Tue
The esp you are referring to is Guises Will Be Guise.
Speculation/Wishlist on Season
3 of Angel -- Halcyon, 11:10:28 05/14/01 Mon
Just to get the ball rolling here's 12 items on my Speculation/Wishlist.
1: More of Faith
2: Resolution to the Darla storyline.
3: Buffy apologising to Angel about the way she acted in Sanctuary
- a real apology not some half assed one like we got in The Yoko
Factor.
4: More on Wesley and his family.
5: The Kalderash Gypsies - it does not make sense that they have
been watching Angel for the last 100 or so years and not show
up in his life since the deaths of Enyos and Janna/Jenny Calendar
- they have even more reason to hate Angel now.
6: Xander appearing on Angel and him realizing how hippocrytical
he is in the way he acts towards Angel particularly when he is
dating someone who was a killer for over 1000 years.
7: CoW - an other enemy for Angel & Wesley hopefully we will see
a reason for the CoW sending an inexperienced Watcher into the
field and then blaming Wesley when everything goes wrong.
8: More on the Senior Partners of Wolfram & Hart.
9: Some of the Scooby Gang showing up on Angel not just Buffy
or Spike.
10: Spike, Riley and the Lack of Initiative Squad showing up in
LA. It would be amusing to see Angel kick the crap out of all
them particularly after seeing Riley getting his arse handed to
him in The Yoko Factor.
11: Reasons for why Gunn abandoned his crew.
12: Stories that employ all the cast equally - not like Blood
Money, Happy Aniversary or Redifinition.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of Angel -- Robert,
13:15:24 05/14/01 Mon
I don't really see a reason for Buffy to apologize yes she was
out of line but she had some good reason's for being upset. I
would not hold your breath if your waiting for Xander to start
treating Angel better. After killing Jenny and draining Buffy
I don't think Xander will ever think that Angel deserves any sort
of apology even though there were good reasons for Angel doing
the things he did. Your other story lines I would like to see
like Faith and Wesley's past family life would be a good story
line and bringing in another Gypsy to take Jenny's place would
be interesting. I would also like to see more of Gunn and what
his life was like before Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of Angel -- Halcyon,
06:42:48 05/15/01 Tue
Even if Xander does not apologise to Angel, just him realizing
how two faced he is with the whole Angel situation particularly
when Anya has not displayed any remorse for her past, would go
a long way to making me like him again after his bloody Riley
ode.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Speculation/Wishlist and some complaints -- darren K,
13:30:17 05/14/01 Mon
Good suggestions. I agree.
Especially 1,2,4,5,7 and 9
Angel and Co. may say that they're a "detective agency,"
but they aren't. They're soldiers in the same war that the scoobies
and the CoW are fighting. There should be communication and more
coordination, especially since things seem to be getting worse.
In the last episode, "Over the Rainbow," Angel leaves
all the info about where they're going and what to do if they
don't return on Gunn's voice mail, all the while hoping that Gunn
would join them. This made no sense. I figured he was leaving
the info on Buffy's voicemail, or Gile's, or Willow's. Someone
that could actually do something if they disappear.
Doesn't he owe it to Buffy and the Scoobies to tell them that
Cordie, an original Scoob is missing in a Hell dimension?
The original rumor about the Buffy season-ender was that it would
be a 2 hour crossover with plenty of cameos by former characters.
Now, they do crossovers on inconsequential stories, so doesn't
it make sense that of all the times Buffy and co. would request
backup from the LA Scoobies would be when they were facing a GOD
with Dawn and the universe on the line? Sheesh.
But, if nothing else we should see Faith.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Speculation/Wishlist and some complaints -- Halcyon,
04:16:21 05/17/01 Thu
Regarding Angel and the CoW working together, I do not see that
happening any time soon, after all the CoW were willing to let
Angel die in GD pt 1 and if Weatherby's view towards Angel in
Sanctuary is at all typical of the CoW.
It would be interesting for Xander and Weatherby to meet, Xander
might not like the fact that he thinks like Weatherby in regards
to Vampires, seeing someone else so rigid when it comes to Vampires
might force Xander to analyze his own attitude towards Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of Angel -- VanMoodyGrad,
15:01:48 05/14/01 Mon
I suppose the idea of the gypsies is pretty cool, but why would
they have to watch Angel now? He knows what it takes to revert
to Angelus. Yes he did sleep with Darla, but that seemed to be
an anomoly. And I am sure they or anyone else would have thought
he would go through with it. I guess I am grasping for the reason
they would need to watch him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of Angel -- Halcyon,
00:59:12 05/15/01 Tue
The reason for Enyos showing up in Sunnydale was that Angel pain's
was lessening, does it make sense that a vendetta that has gone
on for over a hundred years has simply been forgotten?
They now have even more reason to hate Angel - he has killed two
members of their clan in recent years.
As to Xander, eugh do not even get me started on him, I can not
take him seriously after his bloody ode to Riley. It just make
me so mad that he does not seem to n realize how two faced he
is towards Angel, when he is dating someone who killed far more
people in her time. Let's look at a purely maths perspective.
Angelus was a killer for 145 years, whereas Anyanka killed for
1120 years, her body count is probably in excess of 1120 people.
Buffy does has to apologise to Angel, both Cordelia and Wesley
disagreed with his actions with Faith but they did not stoop to
insults. Buffy made a deliberate attempt to hurt Angel because
Angel would not bow down to the Almighty Buffy's thirst for vengenance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of Angel
-- Brian, 06:49:48 05/15/01 Tue
We needed to cut Buffy some slack on her hatred of Faith. She
had her reasons:
Faith tried to seduce Angel into Angelus, then tried to kill him.
Faith switch bodies with Buffy and slept with her boyfriend, beat
up her mother, and tried to get Buffy killed in Faith's body.
I'd say Buffy has issues.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Speculation/Wishlist on Season 3 of
Angel -- Halcyon, 00:46:41 05/16/01 Wed
Did Faith know that the CoW team would try to kill BiF? No she
did not, that seems a hell of an assumption on your part? The
bottom line is from the moment Buffy saw Faith in Angel arms,
she surrended to Blood lust. To use another example of why it
was wrong for her to behave the way she did, let's consider Delenn's
actions in B5 after Dukhat was killed by the crew of the Prometheus,
she eventually recognized that what she did was wrong. When are
we going to see Buffy realize that what she did in Sanctuary was
the act of a spoilt child? Angel would not give in her, so she
deliberately try to hurt him anyway she could, first physically
and then by hurting him emotionally.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> extremes -- Brian, 06:21:25 05/16/01
Wed
You appear to be looking at the Buffyverse in black and white
terms when that world is really shades of grey. The power and
appeal of all the major characters is that they are all too human.
They have flaws in their characters, but this does not stop them
from being heroic, nor us from being concerned and involved with
their lives.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Buffy and Xander had good reasons for their
actions -- Robert, 16:36:28 05/15/01 Tue
Yes Buffy hurt Angel but the thing is Angel also hurt Buffy and
what Buffy did was not right but it is understandable. Plus Faith
did not deserve any sympathy from Buffy after all the things she
put Buffy through. There are big differences in Angel's and Anya's
situations one being that Anya is human while Angel is a vampire
and Xander still considers Angel to be extremly dangerous because
of the curse. And the biggest difference between Angel and Anya
is that Anya never hurt anyone one Xander knew while Angel terrorized
the SG and killed their friends for several months.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good reasons
for their actions -- Halcyon, 00:39:38 05/16/01 Wed
Oh so it is perfectly acceptable in Xander's viewpoint, that Anya
ONLY HURT PEOPLE HE DID NOT KNOW. The bottom line is Xander is
a scumbag, Buffy does not give him any of the grief he dealt to
her while she was dating Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good reasons
for their actions -- Halcyon, 08:31:12 05/16/01 Wed
Even before Angel lost his soul, Xander was a sod towards him,
particularly in Prophecy Girl, School Hard and the way he behaved
toward Buffy when she found the disk containing the restoration
ritual, if we thought in Xander logic and just killed Angelus/Angel,
Bethany Chaulk would be an assassin for Wolfram & Hart, the three
blind kids from Blind Date would have been killed, Faith would
have self destructed, Cordelia would have died at Russell Winter's
hands, Rachel would have been murdered by her boyfriend, Melissa
Burns would have been killed by Dr Meltzer and Doyle would not
have been inspired to sacrifice himself to save the Lister half
breeds as well as thousands of human lives from the Scourge's
beacon. Xander is most respects a good man but he allows his hatred
of Angel to cloud his judgement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good reasons
for their actions -- Robert, 09:13:37 05/16/01 Wed
I agree that in Becoming he was extremly harsh and insensitive
towards Buffy and Giles and that he tended to not care about what
Buffy felt about Angel. Xander is not amoung my favorite Buffy
characters but I can understand his viewpoint when it came to
Angel and calling Xander a scumbag is a little harsh. Ever since
Xander had to kill Jessie he has had an extreme hatred towards
any vampire but before Angel lost his soul he had started to come
around and went so far as to defend Angel when Kendra came to
town in What's My Line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good
reasons for their actions -- Halcyon, 11:38:18 05/16/01 Wed
There is never a good reason for revenge, Buffy was willing to
act as Judge, Jury & Executioner to Faith. Did she learn nothing
about vengeance from Hus or The Kalderash Gypsies?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander
had good reasons for their actions -- Halcyon, 04:01:59 05/17/01
Thu
Regarding Anya & Angel/Liam, if we assume that the way Willow
was approached by D'hoffryn is SOP for recruitment of Vengeance
Demons, Anya clearly made the choice to become a demon. Liam did
not, he had no idea what Darla was going to do to him, all he
expected to happen was a tryst with a pretty woman, he had no
knowledge about Demons/Vampires at that time, as Angel himself
said the price he paid for his minor flaws/sins was not commiserate
with the offence, being a drunkard and whoring did not merit what
happened to him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good
reasons for their actions -- Halcyon, 08:03:21 05/17/01 Thu
But Xander did not try to kill Jesse, someone running past Jesse
knocked Vamp Jesse onto Xander's stake.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and Xander had good
reasons for their actions -- Halcyon, 08:08:38 05/17/01 Thu
When it comes to Angel, Xander let's his hatred of Vampires blind
him to what a good man Angel is. (Most of the time), so in that
respect he is a scumbag, he is incapable of seeing anything good
in Angel, what happened to Angel in Innocence was not his fault,
it was a combination of numerous factors including the fact that
Darla, Drusilla and Spike massacred the Kalderash tribe who had
Angel cursed as a result Angel knew nothing about the Happiness
clause for over a hundred years.
Will we see a more evil Lillah?
-- VanMoodyGrad, 14:57:15 05/14/01 Mon
It seems since she got promoted this might be her time to turn
it up a notch on the evilmeter. She has always seemed more cold
and callous to me. Even Dru said she liked her because she IS
evil. I don't believe Lindsey really was in his heart of hearts
evil. As Angel told him, "the more you get the more miserable
you are". We just might see a very vicious Lillah in the
future.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Will we see a more evil Lillah? -- Unsung Hero, 17:17:51
05/14/01 Mon
I hope Lilah becomes more evil, because she isn't very interesting.
Now that Lindsay can't carry her, she needs to up the ante, or
she'll just be boring.
I hope Lindsay returns, though. He's that shows' Spike- the villan
with likable qualities and a fully developed personality.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Will we see a more evil Lillah? -- Rufus, 19:13:36
05/14/01 Mon
I can't garner much interest for a character whos best line of
the season was, "Stake the bitch!"
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[> [> [> Re: Will we see a more evil Lillah? -- Solitude1056,
19:54:23 05/14/01 Mon
Naw, her best line of the season was definitely that aside to
herself about now she knew her mother was right that she should've
had children... evil, evil, but so self-obsessed & career-obsessed.
It's like some of the women I work with, just driven up a notch
or two. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Will we see a more evil Lillah? --
Halcyon, 01:02:30 05/15/01 Tue
Is it just me or did Lilah look terrified at the promotion? Now
she is head of the Special Projects division, she will be under
a massive amount of pressure. It would not surprise me if she
has a nervous breakdown.
humans!?! -- Morgane, 16:18:59
05/14/01 Mon
By the way, has anyone noticed that Buffy had killed her first
human? or maybe I'm wrong but tell me if so...
When I saw Spike in pain when he started to fight with the Knights
of Byzantium, it reminds me that they were humans. Ennemies, I
agree, but still humans. And they said that 10 of them have been
killed in the battle. I don't say it's necesserily wrong but still,
she killed humans. When Faith did so (and if I remember well,
the man she killed was ennemy either) it was really a big deal!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> There were differences... -- Jack_McCoy, 16:41:55 05/14/01
Mon
What made Faith's kill so bad was the fact that she denied responsibility
for her actions, which lead her to go bad and take pleasure in
killing others. Buffy, on the other hand, was in the middle of
a battle, where it was kill or be killed. She took no satisfaction
from their deaths; nor was it her intent to kill anyone. She was
protecting her friends and sister. The Knights were, after, trying
to kill all of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: There were differences... -- Morgane, 17:02:46
05/14/01 Mon
I didn't mean she was wrong! I totally agree with her actions!
I'm not saying that she did it for pleasure either, but I just
wonder why she didn't appear to even notice it. For me, it's certainly
means that she can go pretty far to protect Dawn. How far? that
is the question. I any other situation I'm pretty sure she would
have think twice before starting that kind of battle. Well, it
also means that she really understand better the grey between
human=good=friends and demon=evil=ennemies. It could be okay to
kill human if they're evil and/or ennemies but it wouldn't be
okay to kill demon if they're not! that could change things later,
especially during daily patrol times.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Buffy's human body count -- Masquerade, 16:54:33 05/14/01
Mon
Humans who have died as a direct or indirect result of Buffy's
fight for the good guys:
* the Zoo Keeper in "The Pack" thrown in the hyena cage,
I believe * was the Tarakan assassin that Buffy killed in the
ice rink demon or human?
* Coach Marin fell into the sewer with the fish monsters ("Go
Fish") Buffy tried to keep him from falling, but he fell
in anyway and was gobbled. * Buffy threw her and Cordelia's corsages
with the tracers on them onto the terrorist Gruenstahler brothers
so they shot each other to death ("Homecoming"). * chopped
off Mrs. Post's hand so she could not control the lightning she
was harnessing and was vaporized * stabbing Faith will full pre-meditation
in order to offer her to Angel to feed on (Faith didn't die, but...)
* Students and parents at graduation who were killed because Buffy's
strategy was to include the students in her fight (with their
permission, but not the parents, one presumes)
One has to ask if the ten Knights of Byzantium who were killed
were "bad guys" in the same sense as some of the above,
which I don't think we can. They were good guys whose only option
to save the universe at that point was to kill the Key because
they didn't know who Glory's mortal vessel was.
Buffy put Dawn's life above theirs, so the question is--was that
justified?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy's human body count -- Unsung Hero, 17:15:11
05/14/01 Mon
No human loss is acceptable or justified. It happens, but it never
should have to. Justified, no. Neccesary, yes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy's human body count -- Rufus, 17:16:53 05/14/01
Mon
Was the death of the Knight justified? Is killing Dawn or Ben
to save the world justified? Just how seriously do we take death
in the Buffyverse? Buffy has been a killer for five years now...no
questions asked because most of the deaths were of the dusty nature.
Then we got a taste of the reality of death in The Body. Have
we forgotten that lesson so soon? With the Knights I have to say
that Buffy was right in that they attacked unarmed people who
would have never harmed them, including Dawn. Buffy finished them
off with their own weapons as she had none. She was outnumbered.
Both parties fighing for something they felt was worth dying for.
The Knights want to rid the world of the key that is an instrument
of Chaos. Buffy wants to save family. Who is right. One thing
is that if the key has another purpose is it ethical to destroy
it before we know what that is? Was it ethical for Buffy to kill
those Knights...yes...they would have killed everyone to destroy
the key.It was made very clear that the RV had unarmed people
inside. The Kights would have killed for an ideal that may be
based upon incomplete information. Was the key created only to
destroy, the monks didn't think so. Both sides think they are
right. Are they?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count (The Gift speculation)
-- rowan, 18:21:09 05/14/01 Mon
It's not that I think Buffy was wrong (because after all, she
is trying to avert an apocalypse), but it has been made clear
earlier that in the Buffyverse, the Slayer doesn't kill humans
(Buffy and Giles had a conversation about this).
So, this leaves me wondering:
Are we learning more about the Buffyverse? Has the Buffyverse
changed? Will Buffy pay a karmic price for these killings?
This storyline has been fascinating in many ways, and this is
definitely one of them. Throughout this arc, Buffy (IMHO) has
been acting more from the (selfish?) motivation of wanting to
save Dawn (because she can't bear to lose her, because it's unjust
for Dawn to suffer when she's an innocent, et al.) than to avert
the apocalypse. After all, she could avert the apocalypse without
saving Dawn, but continuing to try to save Dawn could result in
the apocalypse being unstoppable if she doesn't act in time. In
some ways, more of Buffyside of her personality is dominating
her actions than the Slayerside.
Now, in order to save Dawn, she's killed humans (not just indirectly,
but by her direct actions) and not just any humans -- those who
were trying to avert the very same apocalypse (Buffy just disagreed
with their methods). She's also made nice with that which she
is sworn to kill (vampire = Spike). So Buffy is treading on some
very grey ground. Some basic Buffyverse concepts are being stood
on their heads.
That's why I'm thinking that in The Gift, when push comes to shove,
the karmic balance swings, and although there is a "rightness"
in the choices Buffy has made, she will still pay a price for
what she has done -- meaning, she will discover that to save Dawn
and humanity, she must sacrifice herself.
I'm reminded of Gore Vidal's Lincoln. Through the characters,
he makes a point that Lincoln's assasination was karmic payment
(so to speak: I know I'm grossly oversimplifying the concept)
for the bloodshed of the Civil War. He claims that the South had
ever right to secede and that Lincoln decided to take the burden
upon himself to say: 'the union must stand.'
Buffy seems to be making the statement through Dawn that 'the
one is as important as the many.'
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[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count (The Gift
speculation) -- Rufus, 18:36:11 05/14/01 Mon
When Gregor said to Buffy that when the gods had seen what Glory
had become they trembled....I thought of Kierkegaards, Fear and
Trembling. Another book I thought of with this whole storyline
is Derridas, The Gift of Death.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count (The
Gift speculation) -- rowan, 18:44:18 05/14/01 Mon
While I'm not a big Gregor fan, I had to say that his turn of
phrase there was very evocative.
Have we noticed that Buffy and Angel are struggling with some
of the same concepts this year? Angel has been wrestling with
whether anything really matters -- are there any PTB to provide
meaning and context, or are we all alone & therefore all is meaningless
(or totally meaningful, as he twists it to Kate after his epiphany).
Buffy's cry to Gregor "how can God demand the sacrifice of
an innocent!' seems along the same lines -- is anybody watching
out for all of us? etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count
(The Gift speculation) -- Rufus, 19:12:14 05/14/01 Mon
I guess you could say that Buffys gift will bring her to her Epiphany.
Ask this what would make Buffy a more apt sacrifice than the Key?
If only the Key can open or close the portal why would Buffy be
able to?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body
count (The Gift speculation) -- rowan, 19:14:43 05/14/01 Mon
The thing I'm struggling with (and it's a very mundane point)
is that if bleeding Dawn dry opens the portals, why does only
her death close them? Why can't they just put a tourniquet on
her?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human
body count (The Gift speculation) -- rowan, 19:17:16 05/14/01
Mon
Plus, the reason I think Buffy can substitute for Dawn is that
they share blood (Summers blood) so that Buffy is by extension
also the Key (those crafty monks!) That would also explain the
root of the weird spoiler floating around about Buffy really being
the Key and the monks having done an identity switch -- which
I don't believe, but if the blood/DNA sharing makes Buffy the
Key as well, you can see how the story got exaggerated).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's
human body count (The Gift speculation) -- Rufus, 19:27:10 05/14/01
Mon
You get a cookie for that. The DNA reference was too much to overlook
as a potential reason for Buffy to be able to save Dawn. Their
pact in Blood Ties had me thinking long term as soon as they did
it.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Destiny's children? (Speculation at large...) -- OnM, 21:01:43
05/14/01 Mon
In the beginning, God created the universe, but while it was a
vast and splendid creation, it was also very lonely. So, God created
living things to keep herself company. The living creations were
in such awe of God, however, that she had not companionship, but
fealty.
To seek a solution to this dilemma, God endowed her creations
with free will, that they could accept her and her works, not
out of obligation but respect. Unfortunately, the gift of free
will allowed for the possibility of evil, which caused some creations
to follow the way of darkness and emptiness.
In despair, God decided to divest herself of awareness, and in
a transformation became just energy, soulless, neutral, uninvolved,
cast adrift in the vast, and still lonely, universe.
Eons later, a group of very wise creations accidentally made spiritual
contact with the entity, and realized its nature. They tried to
make it aware that all was not despair and that it could return
to it's rightful place as the creator, that many of it's creations
appreciated it's wonderful gift of the universe.
At the same time, however, the forces of darkness became aware
of it also, and sought to utilize it's latent power to bring further
chaos into being.
So the Key, as the once-God had become known, was made flesh by
the wise creations, and sent to the protection of a very special
being, a human woman whose youth had so far given her little understanding
of her true destiny, which was to allow the Key the chance to
become her God-self once again.
But as with all great gifts, a great sacrifice need be made.
(Just thinking...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank
you, I would like chocolate chip, please. :) -- rowan, 21:06:46
05/14/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy's human body count -- LoriAnn, 17:25:40
05/14/01 Mon
"Buffy put Dawn's life above theirs, so the question is--was
that justified?"
No, that's not the question. The question is if people can protect
themselves from being murdered by others who initiate the attack.
The motivation of the potential killers isn't germane. Buffy doesn't
have to let herself be killed or anyone else because someone else
decides they should die. Kant or Hume, some philosopher or other,
said that natural man's only inborn right is the right to defend
himself or herself. This, if you think about it, is very reasonable.
Buffy did not initiate the attack on the KofB; she just defended
herself and her friends and sister. Defending oneself against
deadly force is fully justified; it is the KofB who are attempting
murder regardless of their motivation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count -- DEN, 18:13:30
05/14/01 Mon
WORD! to LoriAnn! The right of self-defense (which even Hobbes
supported) seems obvious here. To pick up Masquerade's original
point, another close parallel to Buffy's situation comes in war.
Soldiers of both sides may well have morally defensible causes
to which they are consciously committed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's human body count -- Brian,
06:42:22 05/15/01 Tue
Hasn't Buffy already started to pay the price for her killing
humans. I had assumed that her catatonic collapse at the end of
Spiral was due to her realization that she too had killed these
Knights.
Certainly, this episode is a turning point for Buffy. She has
directly taken a human life even if it was in defending her sister
and the other Scoobies. There will be consequences.
Does Spike know that down has
feelings for him? Vice Versa? -- Brandy, 23:41:22 05/14/01 Mon
Just wondering if he knows how she feels or does she know that
he cares for her? What do you think?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Oops! I mean Dawn -- Brandy, 23:43:13 05/14/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Oops! I mean Dawn -- FanMan, 16:50:25 05/15/01
Tue
In Forever Spike helped because he didn't like seeing the Summers
girls in pain. His pep talk in Intervention was revealing, then
his saying that he would give his life for someone he loves(he
was talking to Buffy, but Dawn was there). It is still unclear
if Spike cares about Buffy more than Dawn. Dawn knows he cares,
just not how much. Next ep we'll see more.
Buffy the God Slayer -- Malandanza,
23:45:23 05/14/01 Mon
I have a big pronlem with Glory being killable, even by Buffy.
Suppose you were one of the other two hell gods who had trapped
your enemy in mortal form and knew that to kill her, you would
simply have to kill the mortal... wouldn't you do so immediately?
I don't believe killing Ben is the answer to defeating Glory and
I think it would detract from the series to have Buffy able to
slay a god (after all, what's the point in being a god if lesser
beings can destroy you?)-- unless we find out that the First Slayer
is also a god. Otherwise, I cannot see where the show goes from
here -- will it be just a soap opera next season with Buffy the
Soccer Mom helping Dawn adjust to a post-key existence? What sort
of challenges could be left for her in the slaying arena?
It seems that time was always the way to defeat Glory -- she has
been obsessed with a deadline. Recently, her minions mentioned
that things were "in alignment" -- presumably stars
and planets, a rare enough occurrence that if Glory misses her
opportunity, she will have to wait a long time to have another
(perhaps the 800 years mentioned between Queller incidents).
My other concern is: what power did Glory possess that had the
other gods so worried (she obviously no longer has access to this
power since she ha been largely ineffective vs the Scoobies and
Buffy except by physically beating them)? I believe that Glory
had the ability to open all the gateways (when the stars were
in alignment) and this gift (the key) was stolen from her when
she was defeated and banished. This power was not originally hers
-- the KoB general mentioned that Glory had gained power that
made the other gods fear her, not that she had always possessed
this power -- so could be stripped from her and hidden away.
Anyway, I hope there's more to the Glory story than Ben's death/suicide.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- VampRiley, 06:11:23 05/15/01
Tue
Hey y'all, college courses a huge pain in the neck this time of
year. My teachers either put a whole lot at the end or have a
big case load all year. But I digress. I got to agree with Mal.,
there has to be something more than the death/suicide scenario
or just a rather small act. It's like the same problem I have
with Xena. Now, I never really watched the show unless I was bored
or had nothing else to do. But here's a pantheon of Gods, many
of whom are taken out one by one by a mortal. How pathetic are
they if they get killed by a Human. I don't care how good she
is. If anyone has a LOGICAL explaination I really want to hear
it 'cause I REALLY want to know.
I too fear that Buffy will become just a soap next season. What
can she go against: The PTB's, the PTB's PTB - Joss. Yeah, I can
see it: Buffy vs. the Realverse
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- spotjon, 06:41:29 05/15/01 Tue
"Suppose you were one of the other two hell gods who had
trapped your enemy in mortal form and knew that to kill her, you
would simply have to kill the mortal... wouldn't you do so immediately?"
Perhaps the other two gods do not have the ability to kill Glory
in this plane without taking on mortal frailties as well. Glory's
pretty darn powerful, even in her mortal form, and she could probably
wipe out the other hellgods if they came here to kill her. Of
course, they could have killed her when Ben was a small child,
which was before she gained the ability to manifest herself. Perhaps
killing Ben does not necessarily kill Glory as well. Maybe that
would free her, contrary to what the Knights of Byzantium believe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- LURKER, 11:07:21 05/15/01
Tue
The fact that the hell-gods could have offed Glory and have chosen
not to proves that they either cannot or will not kill her (killing
one of your own is always bad-mojo). But your comments also speak
to something else.
Killing Glory/Ben does not solve the problem. Only destroying
the Key solves the problem. Whether or not Dawn has to die in
order to destroy the Key remains to be seen. But if she is killed
and doesn't comeback to life (ala Hope, Marlena, Roman, or the
entire cast of Days of our Lives at some point)perhaps the attachment
that the characters feel for her will go with her. Granted she
has actually been with them for a few months, I am not denying
that she is in human form. But the affection grown over 14 years
(which they all imagine is there) is really false memory.
Furthermore, the great good that the monks believe the Key to
be capable of is moot--their all dead. No one is left to uncover
the goodness and only the potential for chaos remains. On a real-world
practical note: you are right, Buffy the Soccer Mom sounds a little
dull. The kid has gotta go.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- LoriAnn, 11:09:46
05/17/01 Thu
Greek and Norse gods and vampires, all are immortal, but can all
die. Whether a god is literally immortal depends on what attributes
a particular culture places in its gods. The Greek gods were like
the Greeks only more so. They had the same failings and the same
appetites. They wouldn't die of old age or disease, but could
be killed if the proper, probably mystical, method could be discovered.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- Cleanthes, 13:11:19 05/15/01
Tue
If killing Ben is all it takes, then why isn't Ben guarded EXCESSIVELY
closely by the minions? Heck, he could get killed in a traffic
accident or falling down the stairs.
Perhaps Glory does have some limited godlike powers of precognition
-- she can take over Ben's body whenever he's in mortal danger.
We've already seen evidence of this in the early episode this
season where he's threatened by a demon that Glory then recruits.
(`Family`, I think?) Conversely, Glory's hit by a truck and AFTER
the danger's past, Ben takes over. He may have been the one to
trudge the long walk home after Willow sent Glory on her high
fly in `Blood Ties`.
I concur that there's no point in calling Glory a "god"
unless something really special is needed to defeat her. Even
on Xena where gods are a dime-a-dozen, they set up a kind of hierarchy
of gods, so that only special juju from a higher/transcendant
reality could kill the lowest level gods, or, in a couple of cases,
their own power had to be turned against them. A high-level god
like Krishna continued on blissfully.
Do people think Dawn's "Key" status will end at the
end of the season? I doubt it, but, even so, she probably won't
take up soccer. [grin]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- FanMan, 17:02:27 05/15/01
Tue
Regarding killing Glory by killing Ben. The hellgods would only
need to give one of the Knights a vision of who the child is and
where. The knights would do the dirty work for there own holy
reasons.(reasons filled with holes....grin)
Dawn playing soccer? She is the cosmic blood clot! If the blood
clot is removed, armagedon. She will take up magic, probably without
aproval.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Buffy the God Slayer -- Malandanza, 17:27:00 05/15/01
Tue
"If killing Ben is all it takes, then why isn't Ben guarded
EXCESSIVELY closely by the minions? Heck, he could get killed
in a traffic accident or falling down the stairs."
I agree. I think killing Ben will neither kill Glory nor set her
free (if the prison is destroyed, the prisoner might escape).
Too many creatures on both sides would want Ben dead in either
case (the minions would kill him if it meant freeing their goddess).
Instead, (IMO) Glory is trapped in a cycle of birth and rebirth
-- killing Ben means she gets a new body and the minions start
searching for her again. I believe that Glory has once chance
every 800 or so years to break the cycle -- when things are in
alignment -- and if she misses this window of opportunity, she
will have a long wait before she gets another chance. I am a great
deal happier with Glory as an undefeated evil than just another
notch on the slayer's stake.
If my theory is correct, there would be an interesting parallel
between the slayers (trapped in a cycle of rebirth) and Glory.
The original Buffy movie had a vampire that tracked down and slew
slayers -- might the same be true for Glory? Forces like the KoB
track her down and kill her while she is in mortal form -- perhaps
sometimes before the mortal is aware of Glory's existence (Glory
might not always be able to manifest herself -- it could be dependent
upon the strength of the subject's personality/soul).
As for destroying the key: I don't think killing Dawn solves anything
(unless you can destroy energy in the Buffyverse)-- it would just
return the key to its previous form (no longer bound to a human
being).
Perfect moment of happiness --
spotjon, 07:15:08 05/15/01 Tue
Something just occurred to me: didn't Angel come awfully close
to having a perfect moment of happiness after they landed in Pylea?
He seemed genuinely happy for the first time in a long time, tainted
only by the loss of Cordelia, perhaps. I know that it won't last
long, once his inner demons start expressing themselves tonight,
but still, wasn't anybody worried that his "perfect moment
of happiness" might give way to something not-so-happy? Maybe
the curse isn't in effect in this dimension, but even so....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Perfect moment of happiness -- Jazz, 08:30:41 05/15/01
Tue
It seems that only when Angel was linked, body and soul, so to
speak, with Buffy, could he experience this moment of true happiness;
ergo, while he may find moments of happiness to a degree, he hasn't
got Buffy, therefore his happiness is not truly complete, and
never really will be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Perfect moment of happiness -- Solitude1056, 11:52:54
05/15/01 Tue
I thought the "perfect moment of happiness" was defined
by "a moment where Angel forgets, for even a quick minute,
all that he is, was, and is forced to be, and can exist purely
in the moment without guilt or atonement." Long, but that's
the basic gist. So in that sense, Angel with Buffy is: "this
is truly who I love, and she's all I'm aware of in this minute"
- and for that reason, managing to forget his Self and himself
long enough to focus entirely on someone else, hence no guilt,
anguish, etc. But Angel on Pylea? Different case, but still happiness:
because when he's in the sun there, it's with an overtone of "I'm
a vampire, but I'm getting a tan!" He's happy in Pylea because
he's not being forced to deal with the usual limitations, but
he's cognizant that those limitations exist because of his vampiric
nature, hence he's not forgotten his vampiric nature. And forgetting
them, even momentarily, is what causes the moment of happiness.
When Angel did the drug back in season 1, I thought his reversion
to Angelus wasn't because of the happiness but because the drug
rendered Angel momentarily not-in-control. So that wasn't really
a moment of happiness, either, because once again the drug was
part of his awareness, which meant he was saying/thinking: "I'm
normally the broody vampire guy, but this drug makes me happy
anyway!"
In both instances you have an awareness of Self, and the limitations
of Self, and the temporary suspension of those limitations. It's
only with Buffy that so far Angel has completed the last step
in full happiness, which is to forget that Self even exists, that
limitations occur, and that this is even temporary.
Strangely, the Angel's moment of happiness debate makes me think
back to an article I read years ago while flying on SouthWest
Airlines (I kid you not). It had an interview with an author,
who writes about the Zen of dogs. His comment was that dogs don't
teach, they do, in things like the fact that being in the car
is just as much fun as the arrival - any creature who gets pure
joy from hanging their head out a car window for the breeze gets
points from me. And his other point, the one I'm referencing here,
was that "walking inthe woods with dogs can teach you that
you've had it backwards, in our limited human way. Dogs show you
that you may not have all the time in the world, but that instead
for this moment in time, you have all the world."
That's a pure moment of happiness, IMO.
The Hero's Journey -- Humanitas,
09:36:35 05/15/01 Tue
OK, I'm not sure where I'm going with this yet, so come along
with me for the ride...
We were talking at one point about the Hero's Journey as it is
expressed through Spike, Buffy, etc. As I understand it, the Journey
is (much simplified) thus:
1. Hero is called. 2. Hero goes to underworld. 3. Hero is either
destroyed or transformed by the experience.
This pattern appears in all cultures, so it's probably hard-wired
into the human consciousness somehow. Not all stories use this
pattern, but the ones that do are the ones that tend to become
"classics."
Buffy's current Hero Journey is pretty obvious. She's overwhelmed
by everything that's happened to her this season, both as The
Slayer and as a person, so now she's in the Underworld (known
locally as Catatonia). Whether she is transformed or destroyed
remains to be seen. Well, all right, we know she survives (there
is a Season Six on the way), so what remains to be seen is how
she survives, and what the nature of her transformation is.
There was some discussion below about wheter a Hero can be flawed
or not. I would argue that a Hero has to be flawed, so that the
audience can identify with her. In fact, often the transformation
involves rising above her flaws to achieve some goal.
Buffy gets accused of being whiny (and she is). That certainly
does not disqualify her for hero-dom, however. Look at Luke Skywalker.
(The Hero's Journey always leads me to Star Wars. Can't help it.)
Now, there's a whiner! Nevertheless, he goes through a transformative
process and emerges a more balanced individual, able to accomplish
the goal (defeat of the Emperor). The point is that the Hero's
Journey is an allegory for growing up. With Buffy, the growing
up is more literal, in keeping with the more "realistic"
style of the show. She's had some hard times, and how she deals
with them will determine the kind of woman she grows into.
As Spike said, "Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how
you start out."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Hero's Journey -- rowan, 19:46:59 05/15/01 Tue
Hmm...and if Buffy literally ends up in the underworld demon dimension
of the triple hellgods after The Gift...we all bow down and worship
you.
Cycles & Foreshadowing -- Solitude1056,
11:34:35 05/15/01 Tue
This is a silly note, for the most part, but I was thinking back
to how much I'm amused by the fact that both the shooting script
and Glory refer to her helpers as "minions." And I realized,
it's not an expression anyone else has used - no, wait a second.
Gee. Someone has.
Yeah, someone blonde, a little dense, who encouraged her minions
to do her dirty work for her with an emphasis on loving/worshipping
her as their motivation, who dressed like a mall rat's idea of
classy... could it be... Harmony? Yup. So the whole idea strikes
me as somewhat hilarious, and I'm wondering if Joss wasn't sort
of foreshadowing the whole "female skanky character with
worshipful minons" idea by sending in that strangely off-kilter
Harmony thread about being Buffy's arch-nemesis. At the time,
I couldn't figure out why Harmony thought Buffy was out to get
her - or maybe I just missed an earlier episode from season 4
that explained the motivation. But the similarities are definitely
there, and certainly amusing (at least to me, in my sleep-deprived
over-worked state)!
Anyone else notice this? And has Joss done this with any other
story arcs - that is, throw out a small version of it in the previous
season, one that comes back in a souped-up form with more punch
the next time around?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Cycles & Foreshadowing -- Rufus, 14:01:10 05/15/01 Tue
In the Shooting Script for Angel at the end of the episode Disharmony,
Harmony is seen in Mexico starting a cult of her own. It was never
shown in the finished product. That would be scary....the idea
of Harmony becoming a big bad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Cycles & Foreshadowing -- Mav, 14:03:11 05/15/01 Tue
Maybe it just something blondes do? but seriously, it quite easily
could have been a joke in referense to what will happen. But,
when Harmony had Dawn,Buffy saved her, killed the minions, but
let Gorgeous harmony live. Somehow, I doubt that'll happen this
time round!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Cycles & Foreshadowing -- rowan, 19:43:11 05/15/01
Tue
I think this was a great pick up! It makes sense, doesn't it,
that Joss and the crew might be having a little fun with foreshadowing?
Notice that in Crush when Harmony leaves Spike she slaps her a**
and says he won't be gettin' it anymore; and the in Intervention
(which is the third of the big Spike trilogy of FFL, Crush, and
Intervention this season) Spike picks on Glory's lopsided posterior.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Cycles & Foreshadowing -- darrenK, 20:18:29 05/15/01
Tue
Nice catch!
In fact, Harmony had Dawn tied up the same way Glory does in the
preview for next week.
It just shows the beauty of the tightly wrought order that is
the Buffyverse.
dK
Giving death & saving Dawn --
Solitude1056, 11:43:20 05/15/01 Tue
I've noticed a few posts in different threads remark that Buffy
& Dawn carry the same DNA, so Buffy may be able to save Dawn by
sacrificing herself. Uh, I dunno. Where does it say (other than
spoilers) that the only way to lock the Key is to kill it? We've
got the basic assumption from spoilers (mostly) that the only
way to open the Key is to bleed it. But I'd guess it requires
a ritual at the same time, or every 28 days we'd have a helluva
lotta chaos on this planet once the Key enters womanhood. Not
to be gross, but let's be pragmatic about the whole bleeding idea.
:)
Ok, so assuming the only way to shut down the portals is to kill
the Key - once the portals have been opened - seems to relate
more to B2 than to any specifics I've caught in the actual show.
In B2, Angelus opened it with his blood, and his blood had to
close it - but that would mean that when the Monks put Dawn into
human form, they did so knowing that her power could only be used
once, and then no more Dawn, no more Key. That seems short-sighted,
to me.
So let's say Dawn doesn't have to be killed to close the Portal,
but that someone with her DNA must. Alrighty, Buffy does the Hero
thing and offs herself. But Dawn's still around, and (for the
purposes of this argument) so might be Glory. We've got a Glory
who can't go anywhere since the moment has passed for her to get
home - but who's to say that's the only time you can use the Key?
In that case, the Key - at a cycle of 800 years, perhaps - is
a pretty long-term recharging battery. So Buffy's gone, and now
Glory might be able to use Dawn for other door openings. Or, Dawn
and Glory are both unable to use the Key, and Dawn'll be dead
by the time the next slot comes around anyway. In which case,
again it's short-sighted on the Monks' part - a single-use Key
doesn't seem to be worth the effort of human form, if the single-use
part is a necessity of shoving an eternal energy into a mortal
body. We would've been better off with the bike pump, which at
least could last 100 years if taken care of. Or something... ;)
I'm not positive Buffy's death - in the pure simple sense - would
necessarily stop anything, unless she could take Glory with her,
somehow. And as to other posts, I think the assessment is right-on
that if Glory can be offed with a simple one-two, then the whole
idea of "this is a god" seems a bit, well, anti-climactic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Giving death & saving Dawn -- Humanitas, 14:15:16 05/15/01
Tue
There's definitely more to unleashing the power of the kee than
simple bloodletting. After all, we've seen Dawn bleed before,
in "Blood Ties." No appocalypse there, nless you count
Dawn's emotional trauma!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Giving death & saving Dawn -- Rufus, 14:19:36 05/15/01
Tue
What you said makes sense except for the fact that Buffy may decide
to sacrifice herself after Glory is already dead. If the ceremony
had started, Buffy would have to figure out a way to stop the
portal from opening. This is where she would have to depend on
her belief that she and Dawn are truly sisters with the same DNA
and sacrifice herself. The reality plot has alot to do with belief.
Buffy knows that Dawn isn't her sister but the planted memories
of a loving relationship plus the time spent together has made
Buffy believe Dawn to be a part of her family. The facts don't
matter anymore it's the belief of a familial connection along
with love that will make the difference. Now to Glory as a God.
I noticed how upset she got when Spike mouthed her off. A certain
amount of power has to come from the belief of the person, so
to me power to a little g god like Glory would depend on others
worshiping her. Part of Buffy being able to defeat Glory will
depend on her believing she can. When the guide said that Buffys
love was brighter than the flame I thought that it could also
be taken as Buffys love is brighter than the flame or the light
from Glory. It doesn't matter how Buffy defeats Glory it will
be love that will bring them to the gift and the ability to defeat
Glory.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Giving death & saving Dawn -- Leah, 15:06:41 05/15/01
Tue
This may be completely irrelevent but in "Blood Ties"
Buffy and Dawn mixed their blood. Maybe there is something to
Buffy having a bit of the key in her and Dawn having a bit of
the slayer in her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Giving death & saving Dawn -- Solitude1056,
09:59:50 05/16/01 Wed
But I've never gotten the impression that Slayership was genetically
linked, since it seems to jump to girls all over the planet without
concern for their familial background. A girl from the Boston
projects, a girl from Jamacian farmers, and a girl from middle
class Los Angeles? The Slayer's blood may be mutated as a result
of interaction with the Slayer Spirit, but that would mean Dawn
just has a few drops of mutated blood somewhere in her. It doesn't
mean (to me) that the Spirit of who-they-are has altered in anyway
the physical form of the other sister. It just means that perhaps
physically each could handle the other's spirit, but it doesn't
mean they do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Giving death & saving Dawn (WOTW & TG spoilers) -- rowan,
19:40:51 05/15/01 Tue
Yes, trying to puzzle this out is difficult. Here goes what my
confused mind can come up with.
1. A ritual bloodletting ceremony at a precise time opens the
portals. It appears that Glory and the minions have just figured
this out, based on Glory's remarks to Dawn that blood is the key
to the Key in WOTW. So regular old menses or a wound wouldn't
do it. Plus, when Glory freaks in WOTW and wants to go early,
the scabby minion cleric tells her she'll be trapped on earth
forever if she kills Dawn too early. I think I also picked up
that all Dawn's blood must be shed before the act is complete
and the portals are open.
2. The ritual texts that Spike & Xander rescued from Doc as interpreted
by Giles say that once the ritual has begun, only Dawn's death
can stop it. Now, this is the part I find hard to understand.
Why can't we just wrap a tourniquet on this girl? Is it because
her heart must stop beating? Someone suggested in another post
that Spike could vamp Dawn after she's been almost bled out, but
I'm thinking that MT and Dawn's age make that possibility unlikely...would
Joss go that far and do Interview with a Vampire?
3. I guess I'm thinking Buffy may have to do two things: defeat
Glory and stop the apocalypse. I'm guessing (based on Gregor's
speech in Spiral) that killing Ben will be the way Buffy deals
with getting rid of Glory, after whacking her with a troll hammer
(TG trailer plus spoilers). More on what happens with the Key
below.
4. In Blood Ties, a big deal is made of the fact that Dawn and
Buffy share Summers blood, and they ever clasp bloody hands to
mingle their blood. The ep name, the emphasis on blood now in
the last three eps, Doc's comment about strong DNA, 'death is
your gift', plus spoilers about Buffy figuring out she can sacrifice
someone else have led me (maybe like an innocent lamb to the slaughter)
to suppose that Buffy will have to sacrifice herself. Now, how
does she do that? Jump into the portal? Bleed herself dry? Jump
off the platform? Dunno. Jumping into the portal and ending up
in a demon dimension could lead to Spike & Angel (or Willow) fishing
her out next season. Bleeding herself could result in Spike vamping
her to save her. This is all just wild speculation. Enquiring
minds want to know, and all that.
5. Now, assuming Buffy's dead and Dawn's alive, what then? Yes,
Glory's gone and can't use the Key, but the Key is still the Key
and could be used by someone else. So, I figure at least season
6 and possibly season 7 might be about Dawn's identity. I'm thinking
that if Buffy is dead, Spike will have a significant role (beyond
what all the SG will do) to protect Dawn. After all, someone somewhere
will figure this all out, right? Is Doc still floating around
next season? (no sign of him in TG trailer). I guesssing on Spike's
role because of all the promises he's making to Buffy and the
friendship that has sprung up there (he looked sick when he heard
that Buffy might have to kill Dawn).
Just my crazy thoughts. Seven days until we know for sure.
The Gift -- Possible Spoilers
-- BuffyFan, 14:02:09 05/15/01 Tue
Just some rambling thoughts....
Buffy has been told that death is her gift. Does this mean that
to die is a gift for a slayer, releasing her from the pressures
and pains of slaying? It makes some sense in light of the 730
dream from "Graduation Part II." Faith tells Buffy that
she has "miles to go." The end of this line from a Robert
Frost poem is "until I sleep." Is this a perma-sleep
for Buffy?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Gift -- Possible Spoilers -- jc, 16:55:57 05/15/01
Tue
Does this mean that to die is a gift for a slayer, releasing her
from the pressures and pains of slaying?
The Spirit Guide said that it's a slayer's nature to endure the
pain to risk feeling the "pressures and pai