An Interesting Thought (Spoilers for 7.7) -- Finn Mac
Cool, 20:17:20 11/12/02 Tue
The woman at the Bronze (I'm assuming it was the Bronze, it
could have been another bar) handed Spike a pack of
cigarettes as an introduction. Later he bit her. I have the
theory that (considering he had turned Webb only a few days
earlier) that maybe Spike is turning people into vampires in
exchange for small favors, like cigarettes and maybe money.
Granted, we didn't see Spike put some of his blood into her
mouth, but we didn't see that when VampWillow bit Sandy, but
she turned up as a vampire in Season 5.
[> Re: An Interesting Thought (Spoilers for 7.7) -
- Vickie, 22:22:02 11/12/02 Tue
But what we saw was the woman putting her ciggys down on the
bar and gesturing toward the stool--asking if it were free.
Nothing about giving Spike the cigs implied.
We only have Holden's word for his sire's ident. And if
Holden was mrBeneathYou, his word is suspect.
Poor Masq (spoilers for 7.7) -- Finn Mac Cool,
20:28:19 11/12/02 Tue
With so much left unexplained in "Conversations With Dead
People", I'm wondering if it will be difficult for our
favorite site founder to write the
metaphysical/philosophical analysis of it?
[> Re: Poor Masq (spoilers for 7.7) -- Masq,
21:02:00 11/12/02 Tue
Oh, they always leave things unexplained. So I put down the
best theories in my analysis, and whenever they get around
to explaining it, I go back and put the answer in place of
Heck, It's a year and a half since pregnant Darla, and they
still haven't explained that. I can be patient.
But how can Spike sire anyone??? goes off and has a
[> [> Regarding Spike (spoilers for 7.7) --
Vickie, 21:22:32 11/12/02 Tue
Remember, we only have infantVampire's word for it. And
Beneath-You-It-Devours doesn't seem to always speak the
But how can Spike be biting anyone? (please pass the
[> [> [> He did ignore most of the pain he
recieved from beating on that cult-kid in "Help" you
know. -- Majin Gojira, 05:20:39 11/13/02 Wed
[> Hey Masq! Liking the new quote up top! --
ponygirl, 08:33:33 11/13/02 Wed
[> [> Pretty cool, huh? -- Masq, 09:16:32
[> [> [> An excellent addition! But you have
have a small typo in it. ;-) -- OnM, 12:06:22
[> [> [> [> Hey I cut and paste it out of
Rah's transcript -- Masq, 12:22:47 11/13/02 Wed
Which was cut and pasted out of Rufus' transcript
Which was cut and pasted out of an AOL transcript
Which was probably typed by an illiterate.
So see? My sin was transitive at best.
Also, there might have been some not paying attention
[> [> [> [> [> Wellllll, I have to admit
to cutting out stuff like......"Connor is hot" -- Rufus,
02:37:13 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> Re: Pretty cool, huh? -- frisby,
17:11:39 11/13/02 Wed
Also cool is the fact that I read that quote from that joss
interview and thought it would be a good one to post
somewhere special on your website -- and then you did!
Interesting. If Joss published a book (perhaps with someone
else as co-author) titled "The Philosophy Behind the BtVS
Television Drama" it would surely sell! Then again,
[> [> [> [> Philosophy and philosophy --
Masq, 17:52:32 11/13/02 Wed
I'm almost certain that when Joss uses the word "philosophy"
in his quote above, he means the things he and the writers
are trying to say through the show, the themes and the way
that they go about saying them. I doubt he actually means
interpreting events on the show in terms of the various
'Isms' of Philosophy 101.
Still, I'm aware that Joss has taken a Philosophy class or
two, and I think he'd appreciate a philosophical analysis of
If he ever were to hear about us. *sob*!!
[> [> [> [> [> Have you ever
considered...? -- Tchaikovsky, 07:26:29 11/14/02
...that one of us might be Joss Whedon? It would be most
amusing to know that I or anyone else had shot down a point
from the bloke who actually created the show.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Masq,
07:45:25 11/14/02 Thu
A°?R?ave to funny, given to strange non-sequiters and odd
fixations on various kinds of animals, know way too much
about the character's motives but be somewhat deficient in
the time-line of the series and the metaphysics of how stuff
works. And they'd have to have little or no free time on
their hands, so be somene who doesn't frequent here a
Sound like anybody we know??
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, but...
-- Darby, 10:21:36 11/14/02 Thu
...Also a writer, he could probably mute the well-known
"voice" known from the network-connected feedback boards. I
don't think he could completely suppress the humor,
The two most obvious candidates on that front have
But, to be momentarily serious, I doubt that your site is
unknown to the people in the ME offices, Masq, even if
they've never set virtual foot here at the board. It's just
too cool a related creation to ignore, the sort of thing
that leads to "Hey, have you checked out this site about the
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ah,
but... -- Arethusa, 10:50:41 11/14/02 Thu
There was a poster here a couple of times with inside
knowledge of the show's writers and the commentaries on the
DVDs. (S)he used a pseudonym commonly used by Hollywood
directors who don't want their names on a fouled-up
What is "A°?R?ave to funny"?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "He
would have to be funny" -- Masq, 12:14:41 11/14/02
Don't know how that happened. It looked normal when it came
up for proof reading!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A little
night metanarration-slightly O your T. -- Arethusa,
11:04:06 11/14/02 Thu
On Angel they mentioned a Voy(something) demon. Buffy talked
about insane Troll logic.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The
voynok demon, yes... -- Masq, 12:16:19 11/14/02
I noticed that, too. It could be our mascot. The evil voy
demon who confounds and frustrates our posting and seems to
have nine lives!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gee,
thanks! -- Masq, 12:12:26 11/14/02 Thu
"It's just too cool a related creation to ignore, the sort
of thing that leads to 'Hey, have you checked out this site
about the show?'"
How could they do that?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?! *spoilers* --
20:44:26 11/12/02 Tue
It's like killing a puppy and skinning it alive on
Kill Xander, kill Tara (oh wait), heck kill Spike and
You don't kill Jonathan though!
[> Re: How could they do that?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
*spoilers* -- Traveler, 20:55:05 11/12/02 Tue
Yeah, I miss him too. I comfort myself by saying that right
before the end he became a zen master and was too good for
this world. Very "American Beauty"-esque.
[> Help! I can't get it out of my head!! --
Wisewoman, 21:24:18 11/12/02 Tue
"Anchovies, anchovies, you're so delicious
I love you more than all the other fishes..."
It just keeps going around and around and around.
Sorry, trying to lighten the mood. I'm crushed that
Jonathan's gone, too. And the Dawn scenario was really,
I cling to the lighter moments: Andrew translating from
Klingon what should have been "from beneath you, it devours"
as "it eats you, starting with your bottom..."
I'm a sick, sick woman...
[> [> Re: Help! I can't get it out of my head!!
-- Deeva, 21:34:17 11/12/02 Tue
But Andrew's translation was highly appropriate for him. I
mean look at all the lines the writers gave him last season.
Sue me. I'm sick, too. *g*
[> [> [> Re: Help! I can't get it out of my
head!! -- CW, 06:50:30 11/13/02 Wed
This is going to sound a little more sick than intended, but
I can't think of a better way to express it at the moment.
The misquote is also appropriate for Andrew because he is
the bottom (bottom of the food chain, bottom of the list of
people with their own sense of self-worth) of the Buffy
universe at the moment. And he's already been devoured by
Spike too has been having ego problems. But, I'm not
entirely convinced what we saw in the ep was really him.
Dawn is constantly insecure, so she is a logical target for
the attack through playing on her suspicions and fears.
Willow, on the other hand, has just too strong an ego (in a
good way)for the attack in the ep to work.
[> [> [> [> Bottom's also a character from
Midsummer Night, right ? -- Ete, 11:24:26 11/13/02
[> [> ummm...that wasn't klingon -- anom,
00:12:37 11/13/02 Wed
"I cling to the lighter moments: Andrew translating from
Klingon what should have been 'from beneath you, it devours'
as 'it eats you, starting with your bottom...'"
Actually, Jonathan said it in Spanish. & it wasn't a
very good translation into Spanish, either. What he said
means "From beneath, it devours you." Not quite the
[> [> [> D'oh! -- dub, 10:49:42 11/13/02
I didn't really hear what he said, but I figured if Andrew
understood it at all, it must be Klingon!
[> I'm afraid. Very, very afraid. -- Dedalus,
21:45:58 11/12/02 Tue
Does anyone else think the big evol on Angel is also the big
evol on Buffy? Maybe that has already been brought up.
I didn't see that coming with Jonathon. I didn't see any of
Crawling into bed now.
[> [> Re: I'm also afraid (haven't seen the ep yet
but still...) -- pr10n, 00:30:11 11/13/02 Wed
I think all the Joss-evils will roll together this
It seems like a whole lot of coincidental evils in South
California. And there's that famous casting spoiler, which
shall not be spoken by me, in a cross-over vector.
[> [> Re: I'm afraid. Very, very afraid. --
Artemis, 00:38:59 11/13/02 Wed
I didn't see it mentioned in any threads, but it definitely
entered my mind that there could be a Big evil cross-over.
And if so, How cool is that?
[> [> Re: I'm afraid. Very, very afraid.
(speculation) -- Mystery, 03:41:28 11/13/02 Wed
That would definately make sense if this is indeed Buffy's
last season. Something so huge that it would effectively end
the arc in Sunnydale would have to have some repercussions
in LA. And whatever the BB in Sunnydale is doing, you know
they would take measures to ensure that Angel and company
didn't show up. Then also, Faith was last seen in LA in
prison. I'm wondering if the Fang Gang's involvement will be
trying to stop her from escaping prison? The BB will
probably make it seem like Faith has returned to her evil
ways, and she'll have to fight Angel if she wants to get to
SD in time to help Buffy and the Slayers in Training.
Some Season 7 Spec., so, Spoilers of course :) --
Purple Tulip, 20:52:24 11/12/02 Tue
Ok, well my roommate and I were completely floored tonight
when we finished watching this episode, not to mention
entirely confused. But I thought of a couple of things, and
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this already or not, but I
wanted to throw them out here for discussion.
First of all, I am really hoping that this is just a
foreshadwoing episode and that all will be resolved/revealed
in the coming eps. Second, I was upset with the whole Spike
vamping thing, until I realized something: Spike still has
his chip. It is impossible for him to hurt another human
being (other than Buffy of course) without getting a major
pain in his head. As we saw in, I think the second or third
ep., where Spike stabs the worm-guy with that pole when he's
turning back to human. Spike grabs his head and howls in
pain at just harming a human. So could that Spike with the
chip really be the same Spike that has killed two humans
without any pain? My thinking is that the
First/shapeshifter/or whatever it is, has been posing as
Spike, just as it posed as Warren, Cassie, and Joyce or the
thing attacking Joyce. And also, why would Spike actually
tell Holden who he is before vamping him? Does that really
seem like something that Spike would do, or something that
First pretending to be Spike would do to maybe get
Ok, my other point I wanted to bring up, was what Joyce said
to Dawn, about how in the end Dawn will be alone b/c Buffy
will chose evil over her. Ok, well here's my thinking on
this one: either the First was posing as Joyce and just
tried to get Dawn to doubt Buffy, just as it tried to get
Willow to doubt herself. OR, if this is the end of the show,
I thought that Buffy might get vamped, thus chosing evil
over Dawn, thus not being there for Dawn, thus giving
someone (possibly Dawn) the need to kill her and giving SMG
a way out of the show for good and Dawn a spin-off of her
own. I'm hoping that this doesn't happen, but it was the
first thought that occured to me upon watching this
SO, enough of my ramblings. Anyone got any thoughts,
[> Re: Some Season 7 Spec., so, Spoilers of course
:) -- Metron,
21:23:54 11/12/02 Tue
"...until I realized something: Spike still has his
Oh thank goodness, I'd forgotten all about that. Hmmmm, that
opens up a bunch of interesting possibilities.
I think that was Spike though, there's just alot there that
we don't know about, that looks like it might be sorted out
somewhat next week.
I myself wonder, however, WHY oh WHY wasn't this a Halloween
[> Re: Some Season 7 Spec., so, Spoilers of course
:) -- Alvin, 02:50:09 11/13/02 Wed
What if Morphy has convinced Spike that turning humans into
vamps is actually helping them, not hurting them? After all,
they'll now live forever and be a lot stronger.
Speaking of possible forshadowing, I think it looks grim for
Xander. He's always been cast as a Christ-like figure before
and always been willing to sacrifice himself. Plus he's
always been the closest character-wise to Jonathon. Add in
that he's AWOL this eppie, and it doesn't look for him. If
Morphy could use Jonathon's blood on the seal while he's
seeking forgiveness, what could Morphy do with the blood of
someone who saved the world because of his love for
[> here's a new theory (total speculation) --
neaux, 04:35:09 11/13/02 Wed
Who did Buffy care more about helping before Dawn came
If Faith comes back, and Faith is sort of evily and Buffy
has to choose on who to save, Dawn or Faith. Who would Buffy
[> [> Re: here's a new theory (total
speculation) -- fearshade, 11:07:51 11/13/02 Wed
Good Point, Buffy might think Dawn's somewhat capable of
taking care of herself while dealing with/helping out
But, if Faith does return any this season, I see her being
open to manipulation from the Big Bad.
After all, this is supposed to be a season of "epic"
proportions. In any epic saga, the evil always seems to far
outweigh the good. And there's usually enough evil for each
of the heroic characters. What I'm thinking (or hoping,
anyways) is that we'll finally be seeing a grouping of the
"anti-scoobies", or our heroes opposites.
Buffy has Faith, Willow has Amy, Xander has Andrew, Anya -
I'm not too sure of, I would have said Hallie, unfortunately
she's gone (or is she?), so possibly Spike. But that's my
theory, if the end battle is of epic prÿ
We are gathered here... (7.7, 6.19, 4.17, 3.20, 3.18 and
more Spoilers) -- Steve, 21:29:43 11/12/02 Tue
...to remember Jonathon. A man who died a hero, trying to
save the world. A man, though as flawed as any human, always
did the right thing in the end, even though he never had the
benefit of friends like Buffy, Xander and Willow.
Certainly his trangessions were no more serious than any of
theirs, and who knows what he might have become had he had
the fortune of falling into their circle? Certainly, even
though he came to hold his own power, he never tried to flay
anyone, or knock off his friends, or summon a musical demon
for laughs and kill a number of bystanders in the process.
But alas, he was too nerdy for even the all-loving, all-
And now, unlike Buffy, or Willow, or Tara, or Angel, or
Giles his passing will not even be mourned by loved ones.
No final blaze of glory for Jonathan, just a forgotten grave
in a school basement -- his sacrifice unmarked, literally
Although Xander is supposed to be the everyman in the show,
the representative of the audience we all can identify with,
perhaps Jonathan filled that role even more closely than we
realise -- the perpeptual outsider, hoping for a seat at the
table, a chance to hang out with the Scoobies, much as we do
every Tuesday night. Has anyone here not been guilty of a
daydream in which they put themselves into the Scoobies'
world? It was Jonathan who made that daydream real. And it
was Jonathon, alone, who gave up that dream and accepted the
burden of lonliness which had alomst driven him to sucide in
It was Jonathon, standing alone, blinking in a spotlight,
who redefined Buffy's high school experiences in a instant
for the better when he read out her citation for "Class
It was Jonathon, alone, who gave Buffy the key to defeating
the newly-invincible Warren and who saved Xander's life.
It was Jonathon's curse that every time he reached out to to
try to find a connection another human being, it blew up in
his face. Inca girl. Bossy Cordy. Superstar. The Geek Trio.
The Geek Duo. The return to the high school itself.
So perhaps it was appropriate that Jonathon died as he
lived, alone and unremarked, but no the less the brave or
decent than any Scoobie. He even had style -- of his own
sort, but style none the less.
For me he will always be The 13th Scooby. R.I.P.
 Okay, so some of these didn't actually die, but they
either came reeeeal close, or else everyone thought they'd
 As Scoobies, I'm counting Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles,
Spike, Tara, Dawn, Oz, Cordy, Anya, Reilly, and Angel (but
not Faith or Wesley, as neither really identified with the
group and even Angel is kinda pushing it as he really didn't
turn up for meetings... But 13 has a nice ring to it)
[> Re: We are gathered here... (7.7, 6.19, 4.17, 3.20,
3.18 and more Spoilers) -- parakeet, 21:46:28
Praise is due to a character who, despite his faults, found
an ounce of wisdom in his final moments. I think he finally
realized that his life was his own, that it didn't matter
who made fun of him or who didn't even notice him. What
mattered was that he noticed them.
He was, in many respects, a pathetic character. The geek who
never really connected and blamed that on the "cool kids".
Jonathon only wanted to be part of the gang. He couldn't be
part of the one he wanted and made a dumb, hideous mistake.
He grew out of it, though, in the end.
He was one of the good guys, albeit very imperfect. Andrew
couldn't be the sacrifice because he is, ultimately, just
pathetic. Andrew belongs with the Warren fascimile; let him
[> [> Oh, dear -- parakeet, 21:52:20
Of course, Andrew is pathetic. Amazing. I actually cared
that Jonathon died.
I wouldn't have thought that.
[> [> [> Re: Oh, dear -- Steve, 22:01:11
...and you're right that even Jonathon ultimately accepted
the very thing that I'm railing about - that even though no-
one would/will notice his passing, it finally didn't matter,
because he knew he was doing the right thing.
I too am suprised at how much I'd really come to like this
character, and what what a gut punch it was to see him
Maybe it's just a nasty flesh wound...
[> Sitting shiva at the Tomb of the Unknown Nerd (7.7
spoilers) -- cjl, 21:51:29 11/12/02 Tue
I, too, had hoped that Jonathan would one day overcome his
limitations and mistakes and join the vaunted circle of
Scooby-dom (our modern Knights of the Round Table).
You're right--Xander is supposed to be the everyman of the
series, but our boy Jonathan fit the bill so much better (or
so much worse).
I am deeply saddened by his passing. Thought he would make
it all the way to the end. But killing of the J-man in
episode 7 proves that ME means business this year. A B(A)SD
[Big (Almost) Scooby Death] this early portends bad nasty
things to come. Maybe bunnies.
[> [> It was a major loss -- Charlemagne20,
21:58:48 11/12/02 Tue
Jonathan always was more identifiable to me than Xander
because Xander while he had his own problems was still a
hero. Jonathan was a screwup with a big heart and that I
shall always care for
[> *sniff* -- Deeva, 22:10:25 11/12/02 Tue
Jonathan, a more sacrificial lamb could not be had. I'm
gonna miss this sad screw up. He realized too late that he
was way in over his head.
[> It is fitting... (7.7 spoilers) -- darrenK,
05:41:30 11/13/02 Wed
I'm going to assume that Jane Espenson, writer of all the
big Jonathan episodes, Earshot, Superstar, the Jonathan
comic book one-shot, wrote the second half of the episode
and therefore Jonathan's end.
Among the things that make a Mutant Enemy show different is
that they really love the characters and try to do what's
fitting for them. On what other show would a specific
supporting character have a specific writer as a patron? On
what other show would they stick an actor in the credits as
a tribute on the night her character died? On what other
show would the main character's mother's death get an entire
episode just to contemplate it? (But, then again, on what
other show would they let the main character's mother die?)
But, you guys know all that.
Jonathan made it through some tough scrapes, but this year
looks like it's going to be too big for many characters to
live through. I'm really surprised they'd give us another
death so soon after Halfrek. It makes me wonder what sort of
mourning we're going to be put through during February and
May sweeps? I'm keeping my black armband out. You guys
Not only was it a grand episode to send Jonathan off in, but
it's now obvious that Mutant Enemy is doing something truly
unique for their 7th season. They're bringing everything
back. They're working in every available character, every
available actor. They're ending every plotline. They're
gonna give us the grand summation.
And, even if last night's "dead" were false, I have a
feeling we'll be seeing the "real" dead characters before
That's fitting too.
[> [> A fitting end...?(Spoilers and the morality
of the scoobies) -- Steve, 09:12:19 11/13/02 Wed
"Among the things that make a Mutant Enemy show different is
that they really love the characters and try to do what's
fitting for them."
Hence my bitterness - where was the love for Jonathan?
Themes of love and forgiveness are often promoted as being
at the heart of the Buffyverse. And yet there was neither
for Jonathan, beyond what he learned to have for himself.
And why not? Because he simply wasn't cool enough for the
Scoobies, or even blunter still, because none of the
Scoobies ever had a crush on him.
Jenny Calander shafted Angel and betrayed the Scoobies. But
she was forgiven - Giles had the hots for her.
Angel kills people, and despite his own unwillingness to
absolve himself of responsibility, is forgiven - because
Buffy has the hots for him.
Oz is a dangerous werewolf (he has to be locked in a cage to
stop him from hurting people) - but he gets a break because
Willow likes him.
Anya is a vengence demon (twice) - but that's okay because
Xander loves her.
Tara nearly gets everyone killed - but she's family because
Willow loves her.
But Jonathan gets at best pity, at worst derision, from the
Scoobies -- even though he may have had the strongest
moral sense of them all. He always came around to do the
right thing, by himself. Yet we've been shown time
and again that many of the other Scoobies would have fallen
by the wayside if not for interventions of one form or
Jonathan was a fellow traveller, and it's a shame that the
Scoobies hadn't grown up enough yet to recognise that, even
if they didn't want to sleep with him.
[> [> [> Reluctantly defending the Scoobies'
honor -- cjl, 10:22:50 11/13/02 Wed
Can't believe I'm doing this, since I'm usually the first
one who gripes that Buffy and her crew never gave Jonathan a
chance to join the crew and fulfull his considerable
However, we need to be reminded that the audience had first-
hand exposure to Jonathan's struggles with his conscience,
not to mention his questioning of his place within the
Troika. The Scoobies didn't. Look at the guy's history from
the view of Buffy and the gang: what little they saw of
Jonathan in S2, Buffy was pulling his ass out of the line of
fire (IMG, WML, etc.). When Willow gave him the third degree
in Go Fish, we found a vindictive streak, and a petty talent
for vengeance. Not exactly a good start.
S3, in a bizarre way, was Jonathan's best year with the
Scoobs. They got to know him a bit better, albeit under
extreme circumstances. Buffy talked him down off the tower
and she and the gang recognized his loneliness and his
severe discomfort within his own skin. Buffy's efforts on
his behalf were amply rewarded in "The Prom," when he
presented her the class protector award. As a big Jonathan
fan, I thought he might have been on his way to becoming an
honorary Scoob when they all hooked up in college...
Then we hit S4 and "Superstar," and the relationship went
back into the toilet. Sure, Jonathan saved Buffy from the
"Augmentation" Demon, but the augmentation spell in itself
told the Scoobies that Jonathan wasn't willing or didn't
have the maturity to come to the Scoobs AS HIMSELF and ask
to contribute to the cause. He wasn't hated for his
deception and his magick badness--he just wasn't trusted. He
hadn't proven himself, the way all those other auxiliary
Scoobs had, and there was no reason for Buffy and the gang
to take him in.
Did their standoffishness create a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Did Jonathan join the Troika because he didn't have anywhere
else to go? Come on. After "Earshot" and "Superstar,"
Jonathan should have known better than to fall in with Robo-
pimp and Whatsisname. Yes, he wanted to belong to a group,
but after all his experiences with Buffy and the Scoobs, he
should have realized how destructive, how negative even the
smallest of the Troika's schemes could be. For crying out
loud, he took on Buffy's burden in "Superstar": he knew what
she must feel as the protector of Sunnydale, the weight of
the responsibility on her shoulders. Didn't he learn
So when Warren and the Troika eventually descended into
darkness, the Scoobs weren't willing to give him any slack.
It's more than he was "beneath their radar": Jonathan, in
their eyes, BETRAYED THEIR TRUST--and he knew it. He came
back to Sunnydale with Andrew to win their trust, and in his
final speech, he seemed to learn the lessons Buffy and her
friends taught him.
Of course, since this is a Joss Whedon show, that meant it
was time for him to die.
But you know--I don't think we've seen the last of Jonathan
Levenson. He's dead, all right, but those words from Star
Wars might apply to more than just Obi-Wan Kenobi:
"If you cut me down, I will become more powerful than you
In the final battle, the souls of the dead may be called to
serve on both sides, and Jonathan might fulfill his destiny
[> [> [> Not so sure..... -- Rahael,
10:26:25 11/13/02 Wed
I don't think the ideas of Love and Forgiveness are
unproblematic in the Buffyverse. If your argument is that
Forgiveness is an unproblematic concept in the Buffyverse, I
find the issue of forgiveness less cut and dried motherhood
and apple pie than most people. And the Buffyverse universe
is full of unresolved, complex moral issues that are not
tied up neatly for our own comfort. They are left open ended
Spike's love for Buffy unproblematic? Buffy and Angel's love
can be seen as being unhealthy and adolescent. What about
the Mayor's love for Faith? Xander and Anya? Riley for
Buffy? I think Love in the Buffyverse is a hugely complex
phenomenon. And it is multifaceted, and it often has a dark
"Jenny Calander shafted Angel and betrayed the Scoobies.
But she was forgiven - Giles had the hots for her."
See, now, forgiveness is a hot button for me. I don't think
that Buffy is able to forgive Angel for Jenny, because the
person who is really deeply wounded is Giles (Jenny is dead,
so no longer affected). Giles doesn't trust Angel. It took
Christmas Snow to persuade Angel not to top himself. Buffy
didn't "forgive" him, she told him to keep fighting, keep
living rather than escape life and all the hard choices.
And Jenny's death by the way is inextricably linked with
"love" and Passion. Giles is enticed by roses, music, wine.
The paraphanelia of seduction. Angelus mocks him. Shows that
love is ephemeral.
"Oz is a dangerous werewolf (he has to be locked in a
cage to stop him from hurting people) - but he gets a break
because Willow likes him."
I happen to think that with Oz, what ME were trying to
portray was a more nuanced idea of "grr, argh, monsters
evil, shoot first, ask questions later". Oz was someone who
added deep complexity not only to the idea of the monstrous
in the Buffyverse, but also to the idea of masculinity in
the Buffyverse. For example, look at how he was used to deal
with the idea of "good" and "evil" people in Season Four and
Does Buffy want to sleep with Clem? So why doesn't he get
Do ME say that it's okay for Faith to kill that demon book
dealer? No, it's a shocking and tragic act, and the audience
feels pity for him. Do we really get that depiction because
someone in the cast fancies him?
What about Faith? Xander had the hots for her. Buffy had the
subtextual hots for her. She got rejected more severely than
Jonathan ever did.
"Tara nearly gets everyone killed - but she's family
because Willow loves her."
Well yes, Tara is still family because she is loved. What's
so deeply wrong with that? Tara makes one mistake. Yes, it
endangers everyone, but I don't think there's anyone in the
Scooby gang who has inadvertently placed people in danger.
Should she have been given back to her family for
And if you look at Joss' commentary on the Season 5 DVD, he
says that Tara is loved by Willow, and the other Scoobies
not only do not know her all that well, they aren't sure
what to make of her. And yet, they still claim her as
Spike still ends up being beaten up by Buffy, despite her
having the hots for him. And Giles advocates the killing of
Dawn even though she is loved.
Let's not canonise Jonathan too quickly. He was a fantasist,
and a dangerous one, who persistently ended up making
drastic mistakes. Decisions which were not only bad, but
[> [> [> [> Rahael, cjl -- Good points...
-- Steve, 11:32:15 11/13/02 Wed
You're right that Love and Forgiveness are far from
unproblematic in the Buffyverse. But they are central
themes. I don't think ME is screwing up here or being
inconsitent, BTW -- I just feel for Jonathan getting the Big
I would also point out that Clem never hurt anyone; that the
Scoobies went to extreme lengths to not reject Faith - note
that even when Xander and Giles were looking for her after
she came out of her coma, Xander was still willing to cut
her some slack because of their sexual liason.
What I am saying is it appears that pity is the acceptable
emotion for the Scoobies to feel for someone they don't
like, yet don't want to sleep with and is not an enemy -
it's respect and empathy they seem to have problems with,
especially with regard to Jonathon. Hell, Warren got more
empathy and understanding from the Scoobies (specifically
Tara, in IWMTLY) than it seems Jonathon ever did. Even
Buffy's talk with him in the tower was pretty much a one way
lecture, not a two way connection.
My point is not to disagree with you that the examples you
give of the Scoobies' forgiveness and understanding were the
right things to do, even if they may possibly have been done
for the wrong reasons - for example. bringing Tara into the
family might well have had something to do with Buffy not
wanting to set a dangerous precedent for Dawn - but simply
that Jonathon deserved some of the same.
However, I must concede cjl's point that the Scoobies never
really got a good look at who Jonathon was, perhaps
precisely because Xander and Willow had grown up with him
and so were unable to see with him fresh eyes, as Tara was
able to see Warren.
[> [> back to the beginning -- leslie,
12:24:17 11/13/02 Wed
It seems fitting--and ominous--that Jonathan is the one
character outside the Scoobies who has been present on the
show since the very beginning. And, as we can infer from
Holden's comments about Buffy in high school, he was more
aware of what they were up to than most of the students (how
much you want to bet that Buffy's Protector award was his
idea?). The only other character who has bopped in and out
of the periphery like that is Amy... where is she going to
I am glad that he seemed to have come to some conclusion
about his life and his past before he was slaughtered.
Though, if he were still angry and isolated, he might not
have made such a perfect sacrifice.
[> *Sob!* -- HonorH, 07:41:00 11/13/02 Wed
Oh, Johnny, Johnny--we hardly knew ye. Good night, sweet
[> The 13th Scooby -- matching mole, 10:03:29
What a nice send off! Jonathon has always been a favourite
of mine. As you said he was probably a better everyman than
Xander. At least he died with peace of mind.
If I was Amy I'd be looking over my shoulder right now. As
far as I can remember she's the last recurring high school
character still alive (Larry - dead, Harmony - vampire,
Jonathon - dead - anyone else I've forgotten?).
[> [> Scott Hope, apparently -- Sophist,
10:52:09 11/13/02 Wed
And we all know what happened to him.
I assume you're omitting Cordy deliberately. How about
[> Hoist a Jolt! -- pr10n, 10:47:18 11/13/02
Damn the ME bolt from the blue,
the flash that dazzles and burns
a hole where nothing stood alone:
"They'll miss me when I'm gone."
Today I'm wearing my black Converse Superstars in Jonathan's
honor. I proclaim that I know the difference between tv and
life, but I'm gonna mourn just the same. It's a little
thing, but it's important. Sound familiar?
Dude had a life. Thanks, Jane.
Question (spoilers from conversations and back) --
Jaques Regnier, 23:18:06 11/12/02 Tue
Okay guys I was wondering. I seem to remember something
about the first evil only able to appear as dead people. If
so how was he able to appear as Dru and Buffy in the first
episode or can he appear as anyone who has died or is a vamp
since well sort of death. Just wondering if anyone had
thought of that. Maybe its a sign that this isn't the first
evil or maybe I'm just being to anal.
[> Well....(spoilers from conversations and back)
-- Alvin, 02:54:56 11/13/02 Wed
Don't forget that as a vamp, Dru is actually dead. Also,
maybe it can immitate Buffy becauses she's died so many
[> [> Re: Well....(spoilers from conversations and
back) -- Zilla, 05:03:53 11/13/02 Wed
I was actually watching the Yoko Factor yesterday and then
when this ep aired, the two seemed very close. Spike trying
to break up the Scoobies and now here is Evil trying again
to break up the gang...Joyce telling Dawn that Buffy would
not chose her, the vamp telling Buffy that Spike was his
sire, and trying to get Willow to commit suicide, thus
leaving Buffy alone. I think Dawn still is some kind of key,
and just because Glory is gone, it doesn't mean that some
other force can't use her. We have seen that Willow is one
powerful witch and despite the fact that she used black
magic at the end of last season does not mean she would have
to use it again. Maybe she could use her powers for good.
That may scare the daylights out of this big Evil because
maybe it is aware that Willow may just be the one that it
has to fight instead of the Slayer. And if you combine a
powerful witch and the Slayer who knows what you will get.
Also if this is an all powerful evil, it could make Spike
bite people and there be no effects from the chip. Just
random thoughts before my coffee.
[> [> [> Re: Well....(spoilers from
conversations and back) -- Darby, 07:59:02 11/13/02
Could Willow find a way to use the Key against the Big
And would Buffy support her, against Dawn's wishes?
Just 'cause the BB says it doesn't mean it isn't true...
"It eats you starting with your Bottom" -- Rufus,
00:55:08 11/13/02 Wed
Love that line.....it is funny and tragic when you know what
happens in the end. Andrew, who is frightened and needs
someone to be with him at all times, killed. Hands on, sword
in your gut, killed....with what appears to be Warren
cheering him on. Only at the last second does Jonathon see
the spectre that haunts Andrew, long enough to realize his
dreams of being accepted as a Scoobie, helping to do the
right thing, help Buffy....all gone as his blood fills the
channels of the artifact they have
uncovered......Danzathar..could this be a seal, one that
contains or restrains an evil that is trying to break
through and end the constant battle between evil and
A few questions came to mind....why get Andrew and Jonathon
to dig this sucker up when you have a perfectly servicable
vampire who could do the job faster....or is the fact that
vampires are impure a factor? Why approach Buffy, Willow,
Buffy was faced with a former classmate who she can't
remember, and ends up spilling her guts to. Holden seems
rather caring for a fellow that is evil....but he was new at
Willow......and Cassie....that little mind game was the most
facinating. To make Willow feel how alone she is without
Tara, make her long to join her love......make sure she can
no longer do any magic of any kind. Hmmmmmm.
"Willow: I don't know where to start. Um...after Warren
shot you.....you know all about that, what happened? It was
horrible. I...I lost myself, the regular me.
Cassie: You were grieving.
Willow: A lot of people grieve. They don't make with the
flaying. I hurt so many people.
Cassie: It was the power.
Willow: But I am the power. It..it's in me. Did I
mention the random destruction of property? The Magic Box is
not so much a box now.
Cassie: The power is bigger than you are.
Willow: I know, but..
Cassie: Things are more clear where Tara is where we are. We
can see your path, and you have to stop. You can't ever use
magic again....not ever.
I had a moment where I remembered the part in "It" by
Stephen King where the clown tries to seduce kids to go to
where It was......they all float....ewwww.
The whateveritis tried to use Tara through Cassie (damn
contract talks so no Amber), get Willow where she is most
vunerable.....then like bad guys or things do, it overplayed
Cassie: The suicide thing was too far, huh? Hmmm you
seemed so ripe.
Willow: Tell me who you are.
Cassie: I stand by my opinion. The world would be a better
place if you took a razor to your wrist.
Cassie: I can see it now. Candlelight...The Indigo Girls
playing...picture of your dead girlfriend on your bloody
Willow: Stop it.
Cassie: Oh Baby..you left such a big hole..it hurts so
You don't know hurt. This last year is gonna seem like
cake after what I put you and your friends through, and I'm
not a fan of easy death. Fact is...The whole Good versus
Evil...Balancing the scales thing.....I'm over it. I'm done
with the Mortal Coil, but believe me....I'm going for the
Willow: "From beneath you it devours"
Cassie: Oh, not it.....ME
So, great episode....tragic death of Jonathon.....blood of a
man trying to do the right thing spilled on what....a Seal?
Then there is Buffy and Holden...he gets to give her the
whammy.......Spike sired him.....and she killed that SOB
just a little deader than usual.....but her face at the end.
Spike, we don't hear him talk, we only see him coast through
a bar and pick up a girl, walk her home, and end her life on
her doorstep. Why isn't Spike being heard? Why isn't he
speaking? Why didn't he dig up that "seal, artifact"?
We have a whole lot of new questions to have answered but I
think one of the most important conversations this year will
be the one between Willow and "Cassie"......whatever it is,
it wants to make sure Willow is no longer connected, no
longer a threat. BTW, great exit for a villian. It also
seems to have singled out Dawn. Telling Dawn through "Joyce"
that when she most needs her, Buffy won't be on her side.
Back to Jonathon.....he was well liked by the audience but
remember D'Hoffryns words....why go for the kill when you
can go for the pain? People care less about Andrew, and
Andrew is a bit less caring of others than Jonathon, more
easily influenced by evil.....so Andrew stays.....Jonathon
ends up a blood sacrifice.
Jonathon: We should have told her what we know about this
Andrew: Think, McFly. Why would she believe us without any
proof? If we go to her empty-handed, we'll be coolin our
heels in the clink in a bell's microsecond.......
That's why we need proof. Think of it as Trial by fire, a
Jonathon: Una cuesta.
Andrew: We find it, we alert the slayer, we help her destroy
it.....we save Sunnydale. Then we possibly join her
gang....and possibly hang out at her house.
Jonathon died thinking he was going to redeem himself with
Buffy and the Scoobies, he missed everyone, even those who
were mean to him or ignored him. In Earshot he was saved by
Buffy when he wanted to end his life.....he felt
alone........he came back to Sunnydale, not to hang out in a
tower with a gun, but to help because he wanted to,cause it
was the right thing to do......I'm gonna miss that guy.
[> Jonathan's last pose (spoilery theological
goodness) -- FriarTed,
02:11:31 11/13/02 Wed
so here is Jonathan- wanting to redeem himself, caring about
everyone, at a complete state of moral & emotional
empathy & clarity- to be stabbed IN THE SIDE by A CLOSE
FRIEND and to fall upon a SATANIC SEAL in a CRUCIFORM
JESUS CHRIST, ISN'T IT OBVIOUS!?!?!? *GGLS*
Righteous Blood has been spilled by the forces of Evil &
is soaking into the Seal to aid in Evil's release, but
mightn't the Righteousness of that Blood "taint" the Evil
& work to undo it????
"From above it, It devours" also! *L*
[> [> Re: Jonathan's last pose (spoilery
theological goodness) -- Rufus, 04:02:30 11/13/02
The thing about the enemy that Buffy and the Scoobies now
face is that "It" has assumed victory......gee kinda like
Buffy does at times.
Holden: Hey, I don't mean to be Count Butt-insky here,
but you seem as thrilled....is it because we're gonna
Buffy: It's cause I'm gonna win.
Can't be two winners in this situation so, the question is,
how can Buffy win?
[> [> Re: Jonathan's last pose (spoilery
theological goodness) -- alcibiades, 07:37:53
so here is Jonathan- wanting to redeem himself, caring
about everyone, at a complete state of moral & emotional
empathy & clarity- to be stabbed IN THE SIDE by A CLOSE
FRIEND and to fall upon a SATANIC SEAL in a CRUCIFORM
Not to mention, as someone elsewhere pointed out, that it is
almost certainly virgin blood.
[> [> [> Re: Jonathan's last pose (spoilery
theological goodness) -- abt, 12:49:30 11/13/02
so here is Jonathan- wanting to redeem himself, caring
about everyone, at a complete state of moral & emotional
empathy & clarity- to be stabbed IN THE SIDE by A CLOSE
FRIEND and to fall upon a SATANIC SEAL in a CRUCIFORM
ISTR Jesus was pierced with a sword on the left side.
Not to mention, as someone elsewhere pointed out, that it
is almost certainly virgin blood.
This is the same room the manifest spirits were trying to
keep Spike in, right?
[> [> [> [> Yes it is the same room Spike was
in that they tried to keep Buffy out of -- alcibiades,
13:25:25 11/13/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes it is the same room
Spike was in that they tried to keep Buffy out of --
abt, 14:46:44 11/13/02 Wed
Were they trying to keep Buffy out, or keep Spike in?
ISTR one of them said something like 'I told you he'd get
out'. Or perhaps it was something else they were trying to
keep in, not Spike?
[> Oh, bugger......I forgot........the above post is
Spoilery for Buffy 7.7 CWDP -- Rufus, 03:54:48
[> Trivia on "the quest" (still 7.7 spoilers) --
Vickie, 09:36:09 11/13/02 Wed
Thing is, "una cuesta" is not a quest, but a slope or
Throwaway joke, or implication that our lads were on a
occam's razor (spoiler 7.7) -- ejs, 01:11:28
Hey there. I'm going to go the simplest route and propose a
reason that Tara did not appear directly without involving
real-world actorly motivations or complications, only
If Willow could see or interact with dead Tara, then there
would be less inducement to kill herself. Remember, "Cassie"
played this up as a major selling point for suicide. The
idea of killing herself to be with Tara would not have been
at all tempting if she could be with Tara without killing
Okay, three more random notes:
1) In my opinion, Holden was for real, not a manifestation
of the Big Bad. Mainly because I think that makes for a
better story. But also because Holden actually helped Buffy
understand her problems, rather than mixing her up.
2) I also think that was really Spike chowing down on the
nice young lady. In part because one of the motifs of the
episode was the damage the protagonists can do to others
despite themselves. Also because if it turned out to be fake
Spike, it would have the same cop-outness as 'it was all a
3) When Cassie made her exit, was that scene not one of the
creepiest ever committed to videotape?
[> Re: occam's razor (spoiler 7.7) -- Sara,
05:41:48 11/13/02 Wed
I agree with you about Cassie/Amber. I wish that I hadn't
known that Amber Benson might and then wouldn't be back this
season. I think the whole Willow/Cassie interchange would
have been alot more interesting without the distraction of
is this "where Amber would have shown up?" question playing
in my head. Boo Spoilers!
- Sara, who doesn't want to be spoiled unless it involves
chocolate or flowers
[> Don't agree. -- yez, 09:10:55 11/13/02
I think it would've been much more distressing and chilling
for Willow to be confronted with Tara asking her to kill
herself so they could be together. Same for the audience to
see that. And this would've been parallel to the Dawn/Joyce
I liked Cassie and was glad to see the actress again -- I
think she's excellent. I also agree that her exit was
horrifying. But imagine how much more horrifying it would've
been to see our beloved Tara doing that? Exponentially more
[> [> agree with you, yez -- Vickie,
11:42:14 11/13/02 Wed
I think it would have been much more chilling to see Tara in
However, it would have settled an important
question that's still open: can the ?bigbad? interact
physically when it is impersonating a dead person? We don't
know this, and I'm sure there would have been an attempted
embrace if Tara had appeared last night.
This way, we don't know. Willow's impetus to suicide
might/might not have been stronger. I think Will would have
twigged even faster if Tara had asked her to kill herself.
So very out of character for Tara; not so much for
[> [> [> Re: agree with you, yez -- yez,
12:37:28 11/13/02 Wed
I guess it seems most likely to me that the Big Bad *can*
have physical interaction in any form. Let's assume both the
force Dawn was battling and the force presenting and
animating Cassie was the same, and that this was our BB. We
know it can interact in the physical dimension because it
struck Dawn and completely TRASHED the house (damn, that's
the biggest mess in the Summers household ever). So I guess
you're arguing that when it manifests as a dead body, it may
not be able to do stuff like that... I'm not positive, but
in the library with Willow, does Cassie manipulate the books
when she first enters the scene? Does she pull out the
I'm not sure what the deal was with Holden, and I don't
think Warren touched anything, so I'm not going to get into
Regardless, I don't know if I'm following you. Why do you
think it matters if the BB can interact in the physical
universe when animating dead bodies or creating their
specters? Based on what we saw with Dawn, the BB can inflict
some damage even without a physical presence.
On the other hand, I guess, why didn't it just kill
I don't know. I would've, especially what with all that
[> [> [> [> Re: agree with you, yez --
ejs, 14:27:49 11/13/02 Wed
The crux of it is that I'm not convinced it *was* the Big
Bad trashing the house. Remember, so far, we've only seen
the Big Bad twice that we can be certain of: End of the
first episode, and now as Cassie, and in both cases it was
because the BB identified itself.
The thing that trashed the house may well have been in the
employ of the Big Bad, the way the talisman spirits in the
first episode were. But we can't safely make the assumption
that it was the Big Bad itself. Just as we can't yet assume
(only speculate) that the Big Bad appeared as Joyce, had
anything to do with Holden, or caused/simulated Spike's
And if it was the BB causing the ruckus at the house
somehow, it probably didn't kill Dawn because a) she's more
useful alive, as a pawn to foil Buffy and b) she'll wind up
dying along with everyone else anyway when the time comes.
Willow, however, has to be gotten out of the way because she
has enough power to foil the BB's plot, whatever it is.
I get a sense that right now the BB is like the Master
before the Harvest-- unable to affect things directly, but
still able to have its wishes carried out by agents. And
that seal (which certainly was sporting the Satanic imagery)
is probably the thing keeping it bottled up for now. But
only for now...
[> [> [> [> [> I see what you mean. Agree
we can't know for certain what was in the house, etc. --
yez, 14:35:38 11/13/02 Wed
A Possible Spike Solution (spoiler 7.7) -- Stilskin,
03:39:34 11/13/02 Wed
How could Spike bite a human? The answer is simple: he did
not bite a human.
The entity which in the episode manisfested itself in
different forms to the various characters, to play upon
their desires and fears, did exactly the same thing to
Spike. The woman at the Bronze is that entity, and plays out
with Spike the sequence of events he most fears (and yet
partly desires) in his newly soulful state. So now the seed
of suspicion has been planted in Buffy about Spike -- and in
Spike about himself -- very clever, actually, in a
diabolical kind of way, and very much in keeping with the
doubts and misdirections sown among all the other
Oh, this bad is good.
[> maybe.. maybe not (next weeks trailer) --
neaux, 04:30:02 11/13/02 Wed
except that they said Spike sired the Holden Psychvamp..who
was probably human as well.
and if you watched next weeks trailer I think he bites a few
but regardless I like your theory.
[> [> I still think I'm on the right track . .
. -- Stilskin, 04:39:18 11/13/02 Wed
I think the trailer only shows Spike trying to bite a few
more ladies. Remember how he tried to bite Willow after
first discovering the chip? Whether he succeeds or not is a
And the Holden vamp is the only one who claims to have been
sired by Spike -- there's no proof other than his word, and
if we assume that the Holden vamp is what people are calling
the Big Bad, i.e., the same entity that simultaneously
manifests to Dawn, Willow, and Andrew, then clearly he's
going to say whatever will be most hurtful to Buffy and
helpful to his (its) plans . . .
But next week should definitely clear a lot of this up.
[> [> [> here's one more theory on that --
ktyfantastico, 05:09:58 11/13/02 Wed
another theory i read was that maybe it wasn't spike doing
the biting-- maybe that was the demon? all very
[> [> Re: maybe.. maybe not (next weeks
trailer) -- leslie,
11:56:07 11/13/02 Wed
The scene in the trailer of Naked!Spike in bed with just the
sheet, saying "You're just jealous," gave me a major flash-
back to As You Were, when Riley comes in all het up about
the demon eggs and Spike thinks he's talking about him and
Buffy. Of course, Spike *did* have the demon eggs, but the
situation of Spike defending himself against the wrong
accusation--he's being accused of active evil when he thinks
he's just being accused of sleeping with someone--was
[> Exactly what I thought -- luna, 11:04:08
I think Paul is right about the woman at the bar being the
same kind of manifestation as the dead ones (Cassie, Joyce,
Holden, Warren) in the other scenes. It's complex because
Spike is both human and vampire at the same time. In the
scenes with the others, the manifestation did several things
that it also did with Spike in his scene:
1. Revealed the characters' (Buffy, Dawn, etc.) great fears-
-Buffy that she can't love, Dawn that she's unprotected,
Willow that she might kill everyone, Jonathan that he's shut
Human Spike's fear is that he is still evil; I think he
wants not only Buffy's love but acceptance as human
2. Revealed the characters' deepest longings (return of
dead, understanding, etc.)
Vampire Spike wants to feed again "normally" for a
3. Tried to separate the characters from each other (saying
that Willow will kill others, that Buffy won't help Dawn,
etc.)and tries to neutralize power of character (Holden
turns off vamp face when Buffy goes to stake him, Cassie
tells Willow not to use power), thus defeating the joint
power that is what will be needed against IT, whatever it
Human Spike is cut off when Vampire Spike acts out
Who is the Big Bad of this season (spoilers and
speculation)? -- Mystery, 04:28:41 11/13/02 Wed
"Cassie's" speech made me wonder who was really talking to
Willow. Someone who doesn't care about Good and Evil, and
just wants to "shuffle off this mortal coil" even if it
means bringing everyone with her.
I'm gonna just give my guess right off the bat: It's Gaia,
herself. It's the Earth.
According to Ancient Greek Mythology, Gaia/Gaea was the
personification of the Earth. She was born directly from
Chaos, THE FIRST Child of Chaos. Everything was born from
her: Uranus, her first husband; Pontus, her second husband;
The Titans, the Cyclopses, The Once-Hundred Armed thingies
(Hecta-something or other); The Furies; Humankind V1 was
formed from her "flesh" (clay); Humankind V2 was formed from
"her bones" (stones); even Enchinda, the Mother of Monsters
(Hydra, Chimera, the Nemean Lion, The Sphinx, and a few more
I can't remember).
She gave rule to her first-born son/husband, who soon
dominated her and threw her monsterous offspring in her
"bowels" (a place the Ancient Greeks called "Tartarus" their
version of Hell, whatever is on the otherside of the
"Hellmouth"). The non-monsterous offspring, The Titans were
not returned into the Earth, and came to personify forces of
nature. Gaia, tired of Uranus' rule, and upset at the
mistreatment of her other children, asked the Titans to
dethrone Uranus and Cronus (Time) did so by castrating him
(and thus were born the Furies, Spirits of Vengence and
Aphrodite, Goddess of Beauty and Passion). Cronus never
freed the Cyclopses and the 100-Armed creatures, and earned
Gaia's wrath. Cronus, also, proved to be just as bad a
father, consuming his first five children as they were born.
His sister/wife, Rhea, appealed to her mother, Gaia, and the
Earth aided her daughter and heir in conceling baby Zeus
from Cronus. As a result, Zeus freed his siblings and the
Cyclopses and 100-armed creatures, and then made war on the
Titans. Zeus overthrew them and then imprisoned them in
Tartarus. Zeus ruled fairly well over the years, but has at
times earned the wrath of his Grandmother, who unleashed
Enchinda and other monster upon him. Zeus and the Olympians,
again and again defeated them.
Willow did say that Gaia is showing her teeth and Giles
understood it meant the opening the Hellmouth. What's on the
other side? Primal forces that are beyond our imagining.
The Earth should have been destroyed many times now, but it
has always been prevented by the Scoobies. Think of
everything that has been done to the Earth, by humans,
demons, and gods. Pollution, mining (literal raping of the
Earth), war. All waged on her body. It's like someone who's
been fighting a terminal disease, she wants to be taken off
Gaia has always decided who was the Powers That Be and when
the Powers That Be no longer follow her wishes, she attacks
them. It certainly seems to make sense that a Slayer who
won't die, a Sorceress who has the power to destroy the
planet but hasn't and won't, and a mystical key who could
also destroy the world but hasn't and won't, are no longer
of any use to her, but can easily come together to thwart
her plans. Just as it seems these "Slayers in Training" are
being picked off.
The thing that doesn't add up is this: Why would she need
Spike? Why is she ignoring Xander and Anya?
[> Fascinating. Better than my own theory of ultimate
Big Bad (included). -- yez, 08:56:57 11/13/02 Wed
Whether or not it happens, I think Gaia as the Big Bad would
be fascinating. Hard to imagine how they'd pull it off, but
if anyone, Whedon et al could do it.
Here's the direction I was going in before I read your
Speculation and questions based on last night's ep. Sorry
this is rambly, but no time to polish. Also, apologies if
someone else has already put this out there -- connection
seems slow today and I'm having a hard time reading all the
Okay, so there are at least 2 instances now of It (the
shapeshifting evil force) talking about going beyond good
and evil, beyond tipping the scales. In "Conversations with
Dead People" It goes so far as to say It's going for the
"big finish." Is this somehow parallel to Willow's act under
the influence to end it all, all the pain and suffering by
destroying the earth? Is It connected to the dark power that
manifested in Willow? Did Willow inadvertently summon
whatever this is as a byproduct of her efforts last season
when she tried to invoke the god linked to the sunken
temple? Or could It actually an extension of Willow in some
Whatever It is, it seems to be omniscient and omnipresent,
maybe. It either can see into people's hearts and minds,
allowing it to exploit fears, desires and weaknesses -- or
it's familiar with the Scoobies' recent histories, going
back to Joyce's death. It even knows a thing or two about
popular culture, suggesting that The Indigo Girls might be
appropriate soundtrack to a suicide by a lesbian.
So I'm wondering, particularly with the "tipping the scales"
reference, whether we could be getting the ultimate Big Bad
this season -- Satan himself? Was the vampire's and Buffy's
passing joke about the existence of God ("Any word on
whether God exists, btw?") telling? And since this season is
re-emphasizing the Hellmouth, is it possible that we're
going to see the ultimate hell dimension this time around?
Is "beneath you" a reference to Hell which it typically
identified as down, under, etc.? Whedon has been quoted
recently as saying this season's climax is going to be
"epic" -- what's more epic than the God vs. the Devil
battle? Isn't Satan often characterized as being a shape-
shifter and also being quite charming and silver-tongued
when necessary? Being a liar? And isn't he also
characterized as sowing dissent and turning people against
one another? And wouldn't playing the tortured soul,
heaven/hell card (as with Joyce and Tara) be right up
Satan's alley, assuming popular characterizations?
And while I'm asking questions, why was it important for ME
to present us with the title of the ep.? Have they done this
at any other time than with OMWF? And why the date/time
stamp that wasn't ever used again in the ep.? Are we
starting some kind of countdown?
Also, Andrew's "mistranslation" of the demonic refrain "from
beneath you it devours" was funny, but does it also imply
that there are multiple interpretations of that phrase from
whatever language it originally came? I'm reminded of last
season's Angel with the tampered prophecy and Wes'
Is it coincidence that in this ep., Buffy talks about
feeling "beneath" her friends (even while she sometimes
feels superior)? Is it also coincidence that recent eps seem
to have included several instances of Buffy talking about
what it means to be a Slayer, her calling/mission? Is the
force that "called" her going to be making an appearance?
Does this imply God?
Or would it be too crazy for Whedon to bring Satan into
this, too extreme? Would he be painting himself into a
I don't know... too many questions, too little time.
[> [> OOOOO! I likes! thoughts on your theory and
further season 7 speculation -- Mystery, 11:27:15
OOOOOO! Satan would definately work in this storyline as
well, especially if you go back to Satan's "origins" as the
Archangel, Lucifer, the Morningstar. And now thinking about
it, there DID seem to be a bit of the Al Pacino in the
Devil's Advocate in "Cassie's" final spiel to Willow. Hehe.
But Wheldon has been neatly side-stepping the whole "God"
issue, instead introducing the Powers That Be. And we
already did have a Hellgod, Glory. However, I do remember
being struck by "Cassie's" reasons, sounding very much like
But what is Satan really? He's the Judeo-Christian version
of the Trickster. Trickster figures are neither good nor
bad. They're mischief makers, and when bored with "a toy"
they'll destroy it. They wouldn't really care, beyond what
kind of enjoyment they can gain from it.
But whoever the Big Bad is, it's obviously very nervous
about Willow and Dawn. Why else would it go through such
great lengths to distract them and throw them off their
tracks? Probably because of whatever the BB plans, Willow
and Dawn working with Buffy could very well unravel all it's
plans. Willow because she "saw" something, even if it isn't
Gaia, "everything is connected." Willow also has been in a
Hellgod's mind, and almost achieved Godhood herself. Dawn
may have been made human, but that is just a mask. She's
still the key, Willow made that clear in "Grave" and she
still has the "energy" of the key. Dawn herself may believe
she can't open anything anymore, but I doubt that ability
was a one time thing. In eithercase, The BB doesn't want
Willow and Dawn standing at Buffy's side.
So I'm thinking, this is where Xander is going to come in.
This season seems to be all about the heart. Xander is the
heart of the Scoobies. Everyone has noted parallels between
Xander and Spike, as well as Xander and Jonathan. The BB has
Jonathan as a sacrifice, Spike as a pawn. It would seem to
make sense that it will take Xander too. Xander's already
been pointed out to have Christ attributes, most powerfully,
the Carpenter reference in Grave. In a sense, Xander is
already a SAVIOR, he revived Buffy in season 1 and she went
on to destroy The Master and prevent the first opening of
the Hellmouth, and he stopped Willow from destroying the
world. His shadow is Spike, who in Giles' dream in
"Restless" did a Christ-pose and in "Beneath You" rested
upon a cross. I can't help but think that Xander is going to
be captured or do something that will nearly kill him and
all the girls will have to come together to save him (I'm
thinking Xander trying to protect Anya will take a blast
that puts him near death. Anya remembers that Willow saved
Buffy from death, and begs her to help. Willow sez she
doesn't have to juice for that, and reflective of "Same
Time, Same Place" Buffy offers her strength to help the
healing, and Dawn, now more at ease with her powers as the
key, also offers. The four women, in opposition to "Him"
will COME TOGETHER for one man, rather than dart apart. And
in this, they all get to prove the love "him." Since they
all love Xander and Xander loves them, it proves that Xander
is truly the Heart of the Scoobies, and off they go together
to defeat the Biggest Bad.
Hmm...ok, go carried away there a bit...lol
Also, I've been thinking. What's D'Hoffryn's deal with Anya?
I have a little theory about our tactless little vengence
demon, that I don't think she realizes. Anyanka is THE most
powerful Vengence Demon to ever extract vengence. Hallie
said that she always looked up to Anyanka. People trembled
at Anyanka's name. Anyanka did flat out declare that she IS
Vengence. Anyanka created a WHOLE OTHER REALITY! That
couldn't have been a small task. We're talking keeping Buffy
away from Sunnydale and Giles. We're talking bringing back
the Master, we're talking the Hellmouth is OPEN. D'Hoffryn
required the life and soul of a vengence demon to resurrect
12 + people. Yet, there didn't seem to be a heavy price paid
to CREATE Wishverse. Perhaps, Anya did it under her own
steam. Afterall, it did sound like the spell she used on
Olaf was no small potatoes. How much natural power does
Aud/Anyanka/Anya have? Maybe, equal to Willow? Willow was a
candidate for a Vengence demon. Willow eventually got enough
juice to know the thoughts of every being on the planet and
then almost destroy the whole thing, one of the few beings
powerful enough to hold her off was Anyanka. It would stand
to reason that D'Hoffryn would want to kill her, especially
when Anya comes into her own, finally, she could possibly
kick his ass, and take over the order of Vengence.
I dunno, I think I might be too much of an Anya
[> [> [> Re: OOOOO! I likes! thoughts on your
theory and further season 7 speculation -- yez,
12:18:27 11/13/02 Wed
:) I'm an Anya fan, too.
I like the possible parallels to Him that you're drawing of
the 4 powerful female figures previously split by "him"
coming together over a "him" -- to defeat a "him" if it's
appropriate to ascribe a gender to the Big Bad, which at
this point, it really isn't. That would be a neat little
You reminded me about Willow having previously tried to
change Dawn back into the Key. I wouldn't be surprised if
this transformation becomes important and would explain why
Willow and Dawn are important in the upcomings.
It does seem like it's probably Xander's turn to take a hit
and be the rallying point. Harder to project Anya's role.
But the absence of both of them last night was screamingly
Well, who knows how this is going to turn out. It's a cool
ride so far, though. :)
[> Hecatoncheiroi -- leslie, 11:44:40 11/13/02
[> Cassie as snake eating own tail -- just me?
(spoilers 7.7) -- yez, 12:53:45 11/13/02 Wed
I haven't had a chance to rewatch, but was anyone else left
with the impression of Cassie's exit as the snake eating own
tail symbol? I just learned this symbol was called
"uroboros" by the Greeks.
I also found a reference online to its role in Norse
cosmology when "At the Twilight of the Gods the serpent will
devour the earth..."
_uroboros.html) Tie in to the Big Bad's intents --
destroying the earth?
Or maybe it didn't really look like that at all and I
shouldn't look at any inkblots today...
Ghost in the Machine? (7.7 spoilers) -- neaux,
04:48:21 11/13/02 Wed
I brought this up in chat, so I'll do it again for the
Did anyone else think the first 30 minutes of the episode
was like the movie
Ghost in the Machine (1993)
I for one was waiting for the microwave to explode on
[> death by stereo (continued 7.7) -- neaux,
05:32:42 11/13/02 Wed
Is electronic spookiness enough to destroy the television,
entertainment center and stereo/radio?
Maybe. but it sure made me cringe to see all those
electronics bite the big one.
And as for the Spanish Music Station, seems Buffy and Dawn
have the same taste in Music when it comes to dear ol’
[> [> Re: death by stereo (continued 7.7) --
CW, 07:12:36 11/13/02 Wed
I noticed the Latin music connection as well. As soon as it
came on, I was thinking Joyce.
Actually the scenes with Dawn reminded me of an older movie
Poltergeist. And really it's reminiscent of dozens of
movies and television ghost stories so it would be difficult
to pin down an exact source.
[> [> [> yeah I though Poltergeist also
after.. -- neaux, 07:37:52 11/13/02 Wed
after seeing the furniture stacking byitself..
but the whole electronic thing made me think of Ghost in the
Machine. You are right in that it is reminiscent of many
many ghost movies.. but that was my initial reaction.
Spike: is he being controled? and was Joyce a Manifest of
the First? -- Majin Gojira, 05:13:16 11/13/02 Wed
Most people on this board have fallen into the idea that
Spike is not truely responsible for his apparant actions.
that some other force is controling what he is doing. this,
I believe, is a cop-out.
Frankly, it would be far more interesting to see Spike EVIL
with a soul. In other words. He is doing what he is doing
out of his own will. Just because you have a soul, does not
mean you will be good (insert list of historically evil
humans here). I mean, in "Help", he beat on that guy DESPITE
having the chip. It's been weeks since then...he's
apparently acclimated himself to the pain (or maybe it's run
out of batteries). So it is likely that the Spike we saw
tonight was indeed our Spike.
However. We will not know the answer to this until next
So, what are the possibilities?
1) the First is Controling Him somehow
2) It actually is another Avatar of the First (Doubtful, it
can't take physical form in this world)
3) this is our Spike Acting on his own free will
Secondly, was Joyce really the first? Most people here seem
to be expecting the worst. (despite something dark and
obviously evil trying to stop the message from getting
out...everyone seems to be ignoring that...)But, let's think
about the message she gave Dawn.
Buffy has been known to sacrifice her freinds (and lovers)
in order to save the world. the first time the choice
involved Dawn, Buffy found a loophole.
If it happens again and Buffy must choose between Dawn and
the World...and their is no loophole...who/what will Buffy
If we can believe the statement of Spooky!Joyce? than Buffy
might not choose Dawn.
it also might be a means to an ends. Get Dawn to continue
her development as someone who can take care of herself. it
may mean that Buffy will not be able to save Dawn, and that
Dawn will have to save herself.
Well, that's my little rant.
Last Night's ep was definitely Spooky. the ramifications are
going to be evident for the rest of the season.
[> One more possibility re: Spike -- stilskin,
08:13:52 11/13/02 Wed
Not to flog an undead horse, but another overlooked
possibility re: Spike is that the girl he bit was not human,
but was, instead, another manisfestation of the Big Bad,
just like the ones that appeared to Andrew, Buffy, Willow,
and Dawn. I believe the reason we were only shown but not
permitted to overhear any of the "seduction" scene between
Spike and the girl is that the girl, not Spike, was doing
the seducing, and that by withholding the soundtrack, as it
were, the writers are counting on us viewers to jump to the
wrong conclusion -- classic misdirection. This is where I'm
putting my money.
[> [> Re: One more possibility re: Spike -- leslie,
11:31:07 11/13/02 Wed
Did anyone else think the girl looked disturbingly like
Harmony? When she first appeared, it took me a second to
decide that it was *not* Mercedes McNab with a new haircut.
Plus, she's a smoker--never a good sign.
I agree that the lack of any sound whatsoever from Mr.
Chatty has to be significant. As for who's in control...
really torn on this one. On the one hand, it seems to me
that "Spike" has shattered into several personality
fragments which, when they had been united, all modified
each other (vampire's demonic nature + William's romanticism
= "Spike"); now that these pieces are no longer in contact,
each is becoming more pure in its manifestation, which is
why he's veering so wildly between personas. So, the demon
in him may be breaking out while other parts of him are not
so pleased with this activity. On the other hand... the
Morphing Evil (ME2, to designate it from ME) seems to be
only able to manifest itself as dead people: all the
previous Big Bads, Cassie, and, I thoroughly believe, Joyce.
But, with the exception of Dru, all of these are not only
dead but buried/dusted/incorporeal. In that scene in the
basement, isn't Dru the only one who touches Spike and he
reacts to the touch as well as the words? I just wonder
whether the ME2 can take over the bodies of vampires, who
are dead but still corporeal. Spike, in his rantings,
certainly seems to perceive the ME2 as somehow being inside
[> Re: Spike: is he being controled? and was Joyce a
Manifest of the First? -- Cecilia, 08:49:54 11/13/02
To expand on some thoughts that I posted earlier, we have 2
possibilities with regards to Spike. First, it is either
really Spike doing this or it is a "fabricated" Spike. I for
one believe it is the former. Second, we need to explore why
he is doing this. Again it comes down to two options; he is
being controlled/manipulated or he is acting according to
his own free will.
In the scenario that he is being controlled/manipulated it
could be speculated that it is a direct result of getting
his soul back. Perhaps this is another test? To overcome the
influence of such an overwhelming evil power. I mean, why
was he in the basement of all places? There must be other
sunless places in Sunnydale he could have gone to like, oh
say, his crypt. So the fact that he did "turn up" in the
basement being tormented by this evil power may be
indicitive of some kind of further test. For the worthiness
of his soul perhaps? He had to be tested to earn getting his
soul back but perhaps he needs to be tested further to keep
it. I'm not sure, pure speculation here, but I see almost a
"last temptation" type of thing here. Or perhaps it is
merely the evil powers attempt to dissassociate him from
Buffy, so she will completely reject him (if not stake him).
He/she/it sure did seem to be very, very eager to separate
Willow and Dawn from Buffy. So a possibility.
The more intriguing possibility, to me, is that he is
behaving this way out of his own free will. In this scenario
he is perhaps doing evil(secretly I might add) because he
doesn't believe that he deserves to do good. Very similar to
Buffy's assertation that she feels superior (secretly) to
everyone but doesn't think she deserves to feel superior.
Basically it comes down to this, without a soul, you are
evil and you do not have the choice to be or do good. With a
soul you are not necessarily good, you simply have the
As for Joyce, it too could go either way. If we assume that
there are forces for good (TPTB for example) as well as the
forces for evil, we can assume that they can and do also use
tricks and manipulation. Just because it is really Joyce and
the message was really from her doesn't mean that it is
necessarily the whole and complete truth. TPTB's can be
argued as using any means necessary to achieve their ends,
regardless if the end justifies the means or not. On the
other hand, if the manifestation of Joyce was a trick, well
there is an old saying and I'm not sure if I can quote it
just right or not so I will paraphrase. "The devil will mix
in just enough truth with his lies so that you will believe
him." Not sure where that comes from but it popped into my
head during the scenes with Dawn at the house.
[> [> Re: ...was Joyce a Manifest of the First?
(spoilery of course) -- ejs, 11:24:24 11/13/02
I was thinking that though it seemed obvious to me that the
whole Joyce situation was a Big Bad trick, I also remember
how in "What's My Line?" it was obvious that Kendra was one
of the Order of Taraka. This could have been more
misdirection-- There's the possibility that it really *was*
Joyce, and her message was not meant to sow dischord but to
Some support for this theory-- We haven't seen that the Big
Bad can do anything to affect the real world yet, as in
trashing a house or slashing Dawn's face. (The only instance
I can think of that's even close is when it caressed Spike's
face in the form of Drusilla, but even then it might not
have actually touched him.) Rather than doing anything
itself so far, It manipulates people into doing things for
it. It got Andrew and Jonathan to uncover the seal, and got
Andrew to stab Jonathan. It tried to convince Willow to take
her own life-- perhaps because it couldn't even *try* to
kill her if it wanted to.
So where's the evidence that the poltergeist/Joyce situation
had anything to do with the Big Bad? Hmmm... There isn't
[> [> [> Season opener- the dead can attack and
hurt people in real world -- Spike Lover, 11:38:44
[> [> [> [> Re: But someone had the raise
them... (Spoilers Season 7) -- Just George, 17:34:04
Spike Lover: "Season opener- the dead can attack and hurt
people in real world."
Yes, but I'll bet some physical presence made the totem that
raised the spirits. I doubt the BigBad did that. I suspect
someone operating in the physical world did.
My vote is that Spike made the totem and raised the spirits
in Lessons. He told Buffy in BY that he had dreamed about
killing her. He knew exactly what the sprits were and how
they had been raised. He was in Pangs when the Indian
spirits attacked, so he knew that it was possible to raise
"unkillable" spirits. And Spike was under the manipulation
of the shape shifting BigBad at the time. Until another
candidate appears, I'll vote for Spike.
Of course when if it comes out that Spike made the totem and
raised the spirits, even under duress, it will make it that
much harder for the Scoobies to trust him. Which may have
been the BigBad's plan all along.
[> [> A paraphrase of Shakespeare (Hamlet) --
Spike Lover, 11:35:06 11/13/02 Wed
[> [> [> Speaking of Hamlet, speaking of
communicating with the dead -- Rahael, 16:52:06
I'm rather struck by Hamlet talking to his father's ghost,
who enjoins him to avenge his honour...
and we all know how well that turned out!!
Okay I'm being reductive, but I think there's a resonance
[> [> Re: speaking of tests -- leslie,
11:38:09 11/13/02 Wed
What makes me think that Joyce was, indeed, a manifestation
and not herself was the great lengths to which Dawn must go
to get the message. Making her work for the information,
making her feel that it is a reward for delivering her
mother from torment--she really isn't going to question that
information, is she. I just wonder what the fall-out will be
from Willow twigging to the fact that she was being played.
Will she be able to convince the others?
[> See my above post "High Praise ... Part II
Therapy" -- Spike Lover, 11:40:55 11/13/02 Wed
[> Re: Spike: is he being controled? and was Joyce a
Manifest of the First? -- Sophie, 06:32:19 11/14/02
3) this is our Spike Acting on his own free will
Being a good existentialist, I am still voting for option 3
and desperately hoping against Spike being controlled.
[> My thoughts (Spoilers and Spec. up to and including
7.7 "Conversation with dead people") -- Blood Luvin
Girl, 09:51:54 11/14/02 Thu
1) the First is Controling Him somehow
It seems to me that we have had clues to Spike being
controlled all along. If we look back on his behaviour and
try and link it to this apparent "killing" to his past
actions this season you could note that he has been talking
to something all along. It was very noticeable to me in
“Beneath You”, he seem to have an entity of some kind with
him throughout the episode. It's telling him to do stuff, to
which he disagrees, say's he can't or won't. Or as he said
as he was stalking the rat, "not hardly ready", and what
happened after he said no to whatever was "talking"
to him. It appeared to hurt him, the earth shook and he
cried out in pain, yelling “no” and for help. That seems to
imply that the Entity has some power over him, that at the
very least it is able to punish him by inflicting pain.
And then what happened next? He showed up at Buffy's acting
"normal", saying he was there to help. Then when Anya say
his soul he freaked out and did not want her to talk about
the soul, he wanted it to remain hidden, and then to shut
her up he punches her and when Buffy moves to stop him all
of a sudden he starts acting like “season two” Spike. It
seems to me the entity did not wish for Buffy or the
Scoobies to know about Spikes soul, that it wanted it to
remain a secret, so it uses some of it’s influence over
Spike to cause him to act like “season two” Spike and attack
Anya to distract her from revealing the truth.
He keeps acting like “season two” Spike until something
happens to break whatever it was that had let him act
"sane". And what breaks this fake sanity/entities control
over him? It's him hurting someone.
Really hurting them, not like when he hit Anya or
Buffy, because that didn't really hurt them. What he did ti
Ronnie was some serious damage, perhaps even life
threatening. He freaks and starts to yell for help. Help for
what? Then he start's to say "No, no, too much, too much,
too muchtoomuchtoomuch. Inside me, all the way, deep, deep,
deep inside me..." It doesn't sound like he's talking
about the soul here but something else, I think it is the
evil that has be talking to him, perhaps trying to take him
over. Buffy tells him to stop and he says "Call it quits,
now there's an option. If only it was so easy". He might
not have control over his actions, if he’s not in complete
control it would make it very hard for him to “call it
quits”. Just as he finishes saying this he starts screaming
at whatever it is that’s talking to him to stop shouting,
and he clutches his head in pain once again, like he did in
the basement before he showed up acting sane. As the pain
stops he says "I get it, Joke's on me, lots of
laughs." He goes on to explain how everything will "go
to hell" so to speak, ending it with the words from Buffy's
dream, "From beneath you, it devours". Then he starts to
break down, his eyes tear up and he laments the death of a
little dog 'Poor Rocky". I think at this point Spike
has realised that he is screwed. That he is seriously
f*****. That there is nothing that he can do because the on
At this point whatever had a hold on Spike seems to have
shut up, so by the time Buffy finds him in the church it's
just "Spike" talking now, and he tells her the truth. He
stops pretending, or maybe it’s that he has, for a moment,
gotten out of the “things” clutches, out of it influence
even if it‘s not going to last.
Now the stuff "talking to Spike" could just be a part of his
insanity, but it could be this "Big Bad" or First Evil or
the Morphing Entity, whatever it is supposed to be. Now if
that's true he isn't as insane as he appears and knows more
than we (or he) may realise. At this point he may
doing what it wants him to do, but if that is true it
doesn't seem to me like he is doing so willingly, and when
he resists, it seems to hurt him both physically (the two
times he clutched his head and screamed in pain) and
emotionally, telling him to go to hell, that he's a bad man,
that he's nothing and the soul doesn't make a difference.
We continue to see Spike talk to hallucinations or act in
very uncharacteristic ways, such as in “Selfless” when he
sees the white clad Buffy that comforts him before the real
Buffy comes in and tells him to leave the basement, or his
strange silence during “Him”.
Now I think the control that the entity has had over Spike
has become even more powerful. At this point Spike may not
even be aware of how much power it has over him. I believe
it is controlling him, and he doesn’t even realise that it
is doing it. I think that at the moment he has no idea it is
happening, or that it is as bad as it is. I have a feeling
that when he finds out, it’s going to be bad.
This is speculation I have been thinking about since seeing
“Beneath You”, I have strongly believed since that episode
that at least some of the voices and the people he sees and
hears are real, and that they have power over him. And
everything up to and including what happened in
“Conversation with dead people” just makes me believe it
Ok I posted this in another thread, but it was archived
before there was any responses. So since it fit in with this
thread so well I thought I'd repost it here to see what you
[> [> Thought it looked familiar ;) -- Sarand,
13:19:22 11/14/02 Thu
As I was reading, I thought, Gee, this is deja vu all over
again. Anyway, interesting points. Leslie's as well, which
started the earlier thread. I had thought in "Lessons" that
Spike had been brought to the basement by the Entity or
whatever was in the basement (we really need to come up with
a common name for this thing) for its own purposes. But I
keep wondering why, if the Entity needs Spike, it would make
Spike bite or even vamp people. Seems to me, that's likely
to attract the Slayer's attention and have her feel, as with
Anya, that she has no choice but to kill Spike because he's
hurting people. Maybe that's what It wants. Unless It is
thinking that Buffy's confused feelings for Spike are going
to keep her from killing him, but that she will kick him out
of Xander's closet and he will have no place to go but back
to the basement where he is supposed to be. Hmmm, all very
[> [> [> Yeah, um.... -- Blood Luvin Girl,
14:05:26 11/14/02 Thu
...Sorry about that. I just really wanted to see what people
thought of my observations, and it got arcived before anyone
could. It took me a long time to write it too. :P
[> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, um.... -- Sarand,
14:39:36 11/14/02 Thu
No need for apology. Things sometimes get archived really
quickly around here when there's a lot of activity. You may
notice that Leslie reposted above also. I responded in part
just to try to keep the thread alive a little longer.
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks -- Blood Luvin
Girl, 14:53:26 11/14/02 Thu
I want to keep this thread open too.
I really want to keep this disscusion open and see what
everyone thinks of my ideas. Then I want to engage them in
continued disscusion of our views and ideas.
(I had to write something :P )
Conversations With Him (double-duty spoilers) --
Darby, 06:45:01 11/13/02 Wed
Is there anything to be made of the fact that the three
twarted love-spellees from Him were the participants
in the Conversations With the Dead?
- Dawn, whose spell played out as family drama, who was
betrayed by Buffy?
- Willow, whose spell led to her looking to use magic to
- Buffy, whose conversation seemed unrelated to this
season's Big Bad, but who was also sure that she wasn't
under any spell, but that she was worthy of letter-jacket's
Did exposure to the jacket spell, with inherent wackiness,
set up our heroines' minds for a bit of subsequent poke and
prod? Have the several spells affecting perception so far
this season been strengthened in order to make the Scoobies
more susceptible to this sort of manipulation? Maybe this
explains why the jacket spell affected them more strongly
than most other civilians.
Will there be follow-up with Anya? Will she and Spike meet
Cecily/Halfrek and finally clear this same-actress thing all
up? Is this why Halfrek had to die?
And how long before Jonathan shows up - but no one knows
that he's dead? Except us. And Andrew, who may be taking
Spike's place in the basement. The doorway to Hell needs a
gatekeeper, y'know. A crazy one, apparently (Glory
And did anyone else notice the important point that whatever
the BB is, it can show itself to one (Andrew) and not be
seen by others (Jonathan)?
I still think it's a classic ME misdirect. Somewhere the
spoiled are snickering as we fumble through the darkness,
but I was glad to know very little before watching this
- Darby, happily being a gape-jawed fan again, and very
happy to be here.
[> Re: Conversations With Him (double-duty
spoilers) -- neaux, 06:59:22 11/13/02 Wed
Well to add to your connection of CWDP and Him,
you could say that Anya who was the fourth under the spell
of the Jacket. Anya's masked burglary in Him forshadowed
Andrew's presence in CWDP. So Andrew took over Anya's place
in this episode.
[> Flash of insight before dreaming (spec and spoilers
for Season 7 through 7.7) -- Sablehart, 08:17:06
I don't usually try to analyze Buffy, partly because
everyone else does such a great job, and partly becuase I
don't have the inclicnation to rewatch the episode in order
to catch all the nuances. However, that being said, I had an
idea last night. At the end of dead Cassie's conversation
with Willow, when she admits to whatever she is, she said
she was through with the whole balencing good and evil game.
That got me thinking. If the Big Bad was actually evil to
begin with, it wouldn't care about balence, it would be
trying to win all the time, not just lately. So, that lead
me to two possible conclusions:
1. The Big Bad is actually Death personified. The fact that
it has been using dead people and villians to get
communicate supports this, as well as the fact that death
has been treated as a great balencing act on the show, with
the sacrifice of Halfrek for the lives of Anya's victims,
and the peculiar rules used about resurrection concerning
Tara, Joyce and Buffy.
2. The Big Bad is some sort of manifest of the Powers that
Be. I don't really know about this one, since the PtBs
aren't mentioned like they are over on Angel, but they do
seem to be interested more in cosmic balence than actually
winning something. It could be that they're getting off the
Please tell me, does this make any sense to any of the non-
[> [> Oops, I didn't mean to post the above here,
sorry if I hijacked! :( -- Sablehart, 08:22:52
[> [> Re: Flash of insight before dreaming (spec
and spoilers for Season 7 through 7.7) -- yez,
09:20:51 11/13/02 Wed
Could be. I had been thinking Satan:
[> [> [> Re: Flash of insight before dreaming
(spec and spoilers for Season 7 through 7.7) -- Vickie,
10:37:26 11/13/02 Wed
Interesting idea. I think it unlikely that self-proclaimed
atheist Whedon would allow Satan to appear as a character.
The existence of Satan implies the existence of God. As
Buffy mentioned last night, there's nothing solid on the
As for our ?bigbad?, the chatters last night noticed
something interesting. It doesn't impersonate "dead and evil
people." It appears to only impersonate (and, perhaps in
some instances, control) those who have been touched by
Thus, our ?bigbad? can take on the appearance or form (we
still don't know if it can touch anyone) of anyone who has
died. Including those still dead, vampires (who are dead but
walking around), and Buffy.
Does it impersonate or does it control these vampires? I
contend we don't know. It appears to manipulate in its
attempts to control, and we know it was working on Spike by
I think that Buffy's experience last night must parallel
Willow's and Dawn's. Thus Holden must be an agent of the
?bigbad?. But his physical presence appears to follow all
the laws we know of actual vampires--and Buffy definitely
touched him(!). So was Holden a controlled agent, an
impersonated vamp, or just what he seemed?
And remember, we only have Holden's word for his sire's
identity. So we don't really know what Spike is up to, let
alone his motives for it.
[> [> [> [> Holden's words (through 7.7)
-- alcibiades, 11:33:17 11/13/02 Wed
And remember, we only have Holden's word for his sire's
identity. So we don't really know what Spike is up to, let
alone his motives for it.
Actually we only have Buffy's word.
Holden the evil vamp amateur psychiatrist who was learning
his lessons very quickly said "what's the word?"
Buffy supplied the word most likely to cause her tremendous
pain in the context of the relationship she had just been
The power of suggestion is huge. Especially when it plays
into the greatests fears. Holden of course knows that.
And in part the audience is swept along with this conclusion
because we have just seen Spike bite someone -- but those
are discrete acts. One does not imply the other.
[> [> [> [> [> We don't know -- luna,
11:41:00 11/13/02 Wed
We don't know exactly what was real and what was just
appearance in the Spike scene or in Holden's words.
I think we should assume that there's at least a chance that
it was not a real person but an apparition that Spike
Could Holden have been sired a while back? It's been three
years since the chip, so I guess that's too long...
[> [> [> [> [> Huh? Afraid I am not
following you -- Vickie, 12:10:06 11/13/02 Wed
Just because Buffy supplied the word "sire" doesn't mean she
is telling us that Spike sired Holden. Holden said that.
I still believe we have only Holden's word for his sire's
identity. Even if he couldn't recall the word, or if he only
said it to wig Buffy out.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Huh? Afraid I am
not following you -- alcibiades, 12:45:04 11/13/02
Here is the dialogue.
B: What do you mean? How do you know Spike?
H: What do you mean how? He was the guy that...um...what's
H: Yeah. He was the guy that sired me.
Spike may or may not have sired Holden. We don't know. But
in this scene, Holden begins a sentence and lets Buffy
finish it for him. And given the context of their discussion
-- her relationship fears, why she can't trust men -- the
whole bit, what she comes out with is the thing she most
fears. If Spike has sired Holden, she'll have to kill Spike,
so the fact that he got the soul and all is pointless and he
really is just a stupid vamp.
It's the power of suggestion.
This is one classic strategy to manipulate people with whom
you are in tough negotiations. If you start a sentence and
leave it open ended so that the other person has to finish
it for you, you might end up with more information that way.
Here Holden ends up with a way to dig his own stake into
Buffy's heart before she thrusts one into his.
It is really the context of the converstion that enables
Buffy to believe this.
But within the same conversation he have heard Holden tell
Buffy he is learning his evil lessons fast.
So Holden is using Buffy to get her to admit to her fear and
then repeating what she said. It's more devastating for her
that way. And since he pretty much is about to die and since
he is evil, he wants her to be in pain before the end. It
might also unbalance her emotionally in the coming fight, so
it would give him another edge.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmmmm --
Rufus, 02:33:21 11/14/02 Thu
Buffy has no idea that while she is talking to Vamp Holden
that what appears to be Spike is killing someone. So, you
could say power of suggestion....but the audience is privy
to information that Buffy isn't and that information
supports what Holden says. To Holdens knowledge someone
called Spike was his sire.
[> [> [> [> Re: Flash of insight before
dreaming (spec and spoilers for Season 7 through 7.7) --
yez, 11:56:06 11/13/02 Wed
With respect to Whedon not wanting to imply God because of
his atheism, that may be true. I'm just not sure he would
skip telling a good story over it. He's already established
a Good vs. Evil theme in BtVS and AtS, and in Angel, refers
to TPTB. In BtVS, he's established the idea of hell
dimensions, and Buffy, after she was "resurrected" has said
she thinks she was in heaven -- and perhaps she's referring
to Heaven and not just a "heavenly dimension" as Tara called
it. And Glory called herself and was referred to as a god.
So I don't know, there are a lot of ways to bring "God" into
the picture without establishing The Creator. For example,
"God" may actually be just be the entity at the top of the
divine organizational chain of command in charge of earth --
and there may be many more entities beyond "God."
So while I'm not totally sold on the Satan idea as being
plausible, I'm not sure Whedon's atheism automatically
[> [> I like this idea -- Rahael, 09:56:48
[> One More Conversation With Feeling (double-duty
spoilers) -- Darby, 11:46:15 11/13/02 Wed
Will the next morning be equivalent to the first morning-
after in OMWF, where Buffy pretends to not remember the
details of her experience?
That's getting way tired, but it's certainly possible.
[> Viewer specific? -- Malathustra, 11:47:37 11/13/02 Wed
"And did anyone else notice the important point that
whatever the BB is, it can show itself to one (Andrew) and
not be seen by others (Jonathan)?"
I'm not 100% positive that this is true. I'll need to re-
watch, but it seems to me that Warren mostly showed up when
Jonathon wasn't around or he wasn't looking. He did flicker
in and out, so it's possible that the BB can switch on and
off as necessary, but there was a moment right before
Jonathon died where I could SWEAR he saw Warren. At other
times, Warren was standing behind Jonathon or lurking around
Andrew only when Jonathon was afk.
Still -- ookie. When Warren was standing in front of the
Hellmouth's door? Looked like he was hanging. I swear,
Warren Meers is just creepy. He's a creepy creep.
[> Conversations with HIM (spells, symbols, hearts)
Spoilers 7.6-7.7 and Restless -- shadowkat, 17:34:42
1. First off:
"Is there anything to be made of the fact that the three
twarted love-spellees from Him were the participants in the
Conversations With the Dead?"
Quite a bit I think. Besides what you mention above about
susceptibility. I think the other thing is empathy.
Buffy's experiences almost killing the principal while under
a spell - and the subsequent realization that she could not
control herself - may aid her in how to deal with others
falling into a similar dilemma. Notice how in each episode,
Buffy learns not to jump to slaying first - to the extent
that she actually takes time to talk to the vamp shrink.
In Help - she leaps to slaying. Doesn't help.
In Lessons - well ditto
How much you want to bet the next time she's confronted with
the option to slay first or ask questions first of a close
friend and comrade who has lost complete control, she
chooses option number two? Particularly if said comrade
saved her from herself a few times recently??
The spell was partly used to force the female characters to
experience what it is like to lose control. And in losing
control they learned a little something about themselves and
Also Dawn goes for suicide in HIM to get everyone's
attention. In Conversations - she is told that Buffy will
turn against her. So it won't work a second time?
In HIM - Willow uses magic to find Dawn and to change
someone (is stopped in time) - and in Conversations she's
told if she uses magic she'll go down a dark path from
whence she can't return.
Interesting parallels. Also...why didn't BB take control of
Spike in HIM - and make Spike let Buffy take out the
Principal? Does BB want Principal Wood to stay alive?? And
if BB is not in control of Spike (which I think is highly
unlikely due to everything we've seen so far this season)
why wait until now?
2."Will there be follow-up with Anya? Will she and Spike
meet Cecily/Halfrek and finally clear this same-actress
thing all up? Is this why Halfrek had to die?"
From your mouth to ME's ears. I truly hope so. But doubt it.
Not sure writers know what to do with her here. Dang it.
I want closure.
3."And how long before Jonathan shows up - but no one knows
that he's dead? Except us. And Andrew, who may be taking
Spike's place in the basement. The doorway to Hell needs a
gatekeeper, y'know. A crazy one, apparently (Glory
Actually two things interest me about Andrew and
Did anyone else notice that the seal is heart shaped in the
middle of that star?
When re-watching Restless tonight - I noticed something I
hadn't before. Xander in his dream goes through a jungle
that looks like a dark room or basement cell in the bottom
of the high school. He had been carried by people from
hallways of old high school while talking to Giles and Anya,
then hands bound he finds Principal Synder in the heart of
darkness (the hellmouth in the center of the basement??)
Snyder tells Xander he is sacrifice raised by mongrels to be
laid on a stone. The scene is a recreation of Apocalypse Now
which is based on Heart of Darkness.
Is Xander the final sacrifice to open the hellmouth?
In Xander's dream he refuses to come up stairs and his heart
is ripped out by the first slayer. I don't know - I thought
this already metaphorically happened in season 6 and he
moved past it, but maybe not??
I think Jonathan will reappear. Along with other people dead
or living. Remember the BB has been able to take on Drusilla
and Buffy's forms. Well Dru is dead. But what about Buffy?
Or can we consider Buffy dead - in BB terms?
I think Andrew has taken Spike's place in more ways than
I'm getting real Andrew empathy... (No Spoilers
WHATSOEVER) -- KdS, 07:52:00 11/13/02 Wed
After discussing the Troika's SF fandom so rudely the other
week I just had a real Andrew moment.
Just left a lecture in which I was told that one of my big
assessments this term would be to produce a thesaurus and
faceted classification code to describe an intellectual area
of my absolute free choice. Guess who immediately started
thinking of a BtVS metaphysical classification? Fortunately
someone in the same row as me (who I didn't know was a Buffy
fan) actually blurted that idea out loud, so I didn't feel
as potentially Troika-esque as I might have.
Don't think I'll actually hand one in though - for a start
I'd hate to think whether souls come under Personality,
Matter, or Energy facets ;-)
High Praise for 'Conversations' -Spoils thru this ep
-- Spike Lover, 08:10:09 11/13/02 Wed
Moments of perfection- sometimes whole episodes, but not
First, to talk about my top perceived moments/eps of
perfection... (Different from favorite eps).
1)Season 2, when Angel loses his soul and goes out and bites
the woman and then exhales her cigarrete smoke.
2) Actually the entire ep (Part 2) when Angel says all of
those horrible things to Buffy after their night of
intimacy, the flashback of the sex, and Buffy crying on her
bed. The statement 'She got older' at the end.
3) Giles finding Ginny C. in his bed, dead, in romantic
4) HOw Dru gets Giles to tell her the secret to Alcatha, or
whatever the stone statue was.
5) I forget the season and the ep, but the scene when the
Mayor had set Faith up in her own place. Faith tries to put
the moves on him, and he says, 'Now wait a minute. I am a
family man." Immediately, Faith and the mayor go into a
father/child relationship that Faith SO needed, and which
both Giles and Wesley had failed to provide.
6)The Swan Dive from the tower in the Season Final of 5.
Amazing and terribly tragic. What a moment.
7)Fool for Love, the entire ep. So intriguing and revealing
about both Buffy and Spike.
8)The single scene in Crush, when Dru kills that girl at the
Bronze so that Spike can feed w/o a headache.
9) The Wish, the entire ep, showing how dark, doomed
everything could have been w/o Buffy.
10) A great deal of 'Intervention', showing how far Spike
had come. His good treatment of the robot. Buffy's disguise
at the end.
11) The sex scene in Smashed.
12) The entire: Once More With Feeling ep.
For me, 'Conversations with the Dead' was also
First, everyone who has been noting how this season's eps
refer back to previous ep and seasons and history must have
also caught the similarities...
1) Open w/ haunting music being sung at the Bronze. Reminded
me of the Wolf girl/Oz ep.
2)Buffy confiding in a vamp openly as she did w/ Spike
(implied) at the end of Fool for Love. (As she no doubt
confided openly about some things w/ Angel.)
3) Dawn still trying to hear from her Mother- see ep where
she gets Spike to help her raise her from the dead.
4) The Yoko factor reference, as the evil thing is clearly
trying to divide and conquer where Dawn is concerned.
Also, great acting by everyone. Willow was absolutely
believable, as was Dawn and Buffy. Good humor.
Two quibbles, I do not know if a psyche major could analyze
Buffy's problems that well.
What happened w/ Spike's chip?
Also, what did the evil thing mean when it said something
like it was finished with the 'balance of good and
And what was that throw away line about God's existence
about? Is that suppose to be a head's up to us?
[> Re: High Praise for 'Conversations' -Spoils thru
this ep -- neaux, 08:33:16 11/13/02 Wed
it was finished with the 'balance of good and evil'
I hope that italics works. anyway here is a possible answer
to that question. Each scene that we see is A Balance of
Good and Evil so to Speak.
Buffy good vs. Bad PsycheVamp
Willow good vs Bad Cassie
Dawn good vs Bad Monsterthingy
Johnathon good vs Andrew/Warren Bad
Does the balance shift when Johnathon is killed? I'm not
sure. and I think I just confused myself.
You can tear this theory to hell, it basically came off the
top of my head.
PS: My head has done nothing but think about this episode
all day long.
[> Re: High Praise for 'Conversations' -Part II -
therapy -- Spike Lover, 08:47:16 11/13/02 Wed
I apologize for double posting...
Anyway, now the REASON why this was a perfect episode. Let
me say that I rate perfection of an ep independently of the
other eps in the season. Part of the reason, is because part
of the perfection, imo, are the implicatons the viewer is
left w/ that the writers may or may not pursue in future
For instance, in Smashed, that sex scene, when the walls
came crashing down around the two, and it seemed to imply
that barriers were being torn down like the Iron Curtain.
They land in the basement, where Shadowkat or someone said
that the only place the two could go was up. It was the sign
of a potentially positive relationship. -That did not
happen, as everyone knows now, but the implications were
still present at the end of that ep.
Buffy and the vamp discuss 2 of Buffy's issues. Feelings of
superiority (very obvious- see my primadonna posts from
seasons past) and feelings of inferiority.
Inferiority? When Buffy was trying to explain it, I still
did not understand what she was talking about. WHAT has she
done that she is ashamed of? (I mean that sympathetically,
not critically). Is she ashamed that she has to be the one
that draws the line in the sand, that the buck stops w/ her?
Does she feel that she has no right to judge these non-
humans? May I remind her that she was the one who fired the
Counsel who could have made those tough decisions...
Why would she feel unworthy to have this power? Did she feel
unworthy to be pretty or to have/use some other talent she
I am really pretty lost on this whole thing. What does being
brought back from the dead have to do w/ feeling this sort
Unless it can be better explained, I am not buying it.
I do think she has abandonment issues, which they did not
In fact, bringing up the whole inferiority thing- 'I did not
want to be loved, because I do not feel I am worthy of it',
reminds me a whole lot of the Quasimodo statement at the
beginning of Crush. The writers are telling us what is
happening with another character indirectly.
I think w/ Spike, the writers may argue that he has gone
back to biting people because he feels so bad about his 100
years of bad behavior. He feels he will never be worthy of
Buffy's love, and he does not deserve it, so why does he
even try to rise above his nature and be better than what he
is? If so, it is a cry out for Buffy to kill him. Let him go
out fighting. (Remember Angel going out during the day
because he suddenly could not handle the guilt any longer? -
And it snowed.)
Even so, I LOVED THIS EPISODE BECAUSE OF THE FOLLOWING
What if, now that Spike has gotten his soul back and he is
able to see things more clearly- he simply has fallen out of
love with Buffy?
I am not saying that the writers will take it this way, but
the implications are powerful. I am reminded of 1Cor 13, the
treatise of love, which does not really fit well here, but
they do like to read it at weddings. The beginning says that
if I have the gift of prophecy, and not love, then I am
nothing. If I have faith to move a mountain, and have not
love, I am nothing- or something like that.
Now a vampire can have a soul, know right from wrong, but if
he has not love, then he can not be redeemed. (implied) In
fact, his journey toward the light is immediately halted.
Retrieving the soul was pointless then. Remember, w/ Angel,
w/o love of Buffy, he was just wandering around allies
living on rats. No direction. No coming toward the
Finally, the most Delicious implication... Angel who had a
soul loved Buffy and then hated her, w/o it. What does it
mean for Buffy if the soulless demon loved you whole
heartedly, but once he gets a soul, no longer loves her?
This one has got to give Buffy pause- if anything will.
There are no easy answers, especially for Buffy.
The look on Buffy's face at the very end as the vamp turned
to dust -was worth a thousand words. It reminded me of the
hurt look she had when she sent Angel to Hell. Whether she
was sad that she now had to kill her vamp shrink or if she
was in pain because now she has to kill souled Spike, I do
not know. (See 2 wks ago w/ Anya.) It also reminded me of
when Angelus was tormenting her and siring her high school
friends just to get at her.
Apparently, the soul enables Spike to override his chip. I
wonder if she will have a split second of wondering if they
can curse him and remove his soul to get the old Spike back?
The implications are rich and provocative -and likely the
writers will not pursue them. However, the girl was singing
that haunting song- "Night Falls, I fall. Where were
[> [> Re: High Praise for 'Conversations' -Part II
-therapy -- frisby, 09:47:56 11/13/02 Wed
Interesting. Very good point on Eros (love) and Psyche
(soul) needing one another for completion. Isn't this the
original beauty and beast myth? Yes, ensouled Angel without
love for Buffy was pitiful, and souless Spike in love with
Buffy was horrible, and that might be the "fire" Buffy wants
and needs, the fire resulting from a soul in love. The song
reminds me of Heidegger's darkening of the world night over
the land of the evening sun (a line partially from Holderlin
I think). Night falls and god dies (and modern humanity
begins -- compare the end of Wagner's ring cycle as well as
Tolkien's beginning of the fourth age).
[> [> [> Cupid & Psyche -- Spike Lover,
11:22:29 11/13/02 Wed
I had forgotten about that. It was a Greek Myth, in which
Pschye is forced into a secret marriage that she does not
even know about. (She is never allowed to see her husband.)
Every need of hers is magically catered to, and she is
happy, but curious as to who her husband actually is. (I
think there is a terrible rumor that she is married to a
monster.) So she lights a candle in the dead of night to see
what he looks like. She is stunned to recognize him as the
God of erotic love, Cupid. And the melted wax from the
candle awakens him. He is angry and flees. (As I remember,
the secrecy of the marriage I think has something to do w/ a
condition set by the mother-in-law from hell, Venus.)
Anyway, Psyche is stunned by what she has lost, and goes to
her mother-in-law to find Cupid. Venus hates Psyche and
gives her feats to accomplish to prove she is worthy of her
son's love. (Similar to feats of Hercules.) Psyche is pretty
pathetic as I remember, and barely completes any of them.
Vaguely as I remember, she gets distraught that she will
never see Cupid again and is ready to fling herself off a
cliff. I believe it is then that Cupid comes to her rescue.
The moral? You don't know what you had 'til it is gone. No
one can earn love. No one deserves it. But love is all that
will save you and keep you sane...
-Not that you wanted or needed a rehashing of the myth I
However, I see your point about Psyche and Cupid needing
each other. I will quibble that 'soulless Spike in love' w/
Buffy or even Dru was not horrible. It was actually hopeful,
imo. -But we have beaten that dead horse for too long now,
so I will drop it.
I am curious about the preview for next wk and why all these
women are suddenly seeking Spike out.
Some thought (speculation of end and spoilers for
S7.7) -- Sang, 08:44:36 11/13/02 Wed
The time is now. That's when all of our heros are alone.
When they are vulnerable.
If everything we saw was manipulation of the 'enemey', it
leads to some points.
It needs the slayer be alone at the end.
- This means Buffy needs all of her friends to defeat
It has no direct power to slayer, yet.
- It really sounds like first evil, but then, where are its
It knows everything Scoobies knew.
- This makes it the most dangerous enemy.
It considers Willow as a serious threat.
- Willow's magic must have power on it. Also when Warren
told Andrew that there is another who can make them
gods(other than sacrificing Jonathan) the scene moved into
Spike and Dawn are also considered as threats or someone who
should be against to Buffy.
Dawn must have her power of key. But, Why Spike? Is it
because he is a strong vampire who will do anything for
Buffy? Or maybe, he is a threat to the demon world since he
made a choice to restore his humanity.
I rewatched S1, Giles told Buffy that when demon was driven
out from this reality, they created vampires who can turn a
human to an evil demon. So eventually, demons will wipe out
humanity on earth and then demons can come back. It means
that the humanity is the thing that prevent demons come back
to this world.
Spike maybe the first vampire who actually choose to restore
his humanity despite of his demon nature. And then, Anya
might be the second. This could be the greatest threat to
the demon world, the crack in the big evil ideology.
I think it could be interesting to think that hellmouth will
be closed by demons after they realize that their plan to
turn humanity into demon backfires and they are afraid of
spreading of humanity in their demon world.
[> Re: Some thought (speculation of end and spoilers
for S7.7) -- frisby, 09:39:25 11/13/02 Wed
I think maybe you're on to something with the idea that the
big finale for this season (and maybe the series) will
involve the most philosophical notions we have of humanity,
divinity versus the demonic, magic and power generally, and
a break in time! Everything is beginning to smell of
biblical proportions (alluding to ghostbusters there). I
think it's time for the big bang of the word itself -- a new
The role of the interpreter in Convo'swittheDead
(7.7spoil) -- neaux, 10:23:12 11/13/02 Wed
it occured to me of the 5 scenes in last night’s episode
that basically there are 3 characters in each scene. And
while some of these characters remain unseen, the fact
remains that there is an interpreter in each one of these
scenes. It is this interpreter that is Evil. Either this
third party is twisting words, telling lies, or outright
blocking true communication between the other two. The role
of the interpreter is evil and it makes you wonder if any of
these conversations can be taken for truth.
When Buffy talks to the PsycheVamp, She is not really
communicating to the dead, she is trying to communicate with
herself. The interpreter is the PsycheVamp. He is only there
to help her communicate her own thoughts. He is obviously
evil, he’s a vamp. Because he is a Psych major, you wonder
if the questions he asks are really the right questions.
Willow is trying to communicate to Tara but uses Cassie as
the interpreter. It is not till the end of the scene that we
realize that Cassie is evil, because of her message that
Willow must commit suicide. This makes Willow question
whether her entire conversation with Tara was
The Andrew, Warren Johnathan scene is really different. We
actually see Andrew communicating to Warren. Warren is of
course evil and is telling Andrew what he must do to
Johnathan. It is Warren’s interference that is blocking the
proper course of communication between Johnathan and Andrew.
So in this scene, Warren is the interpreter and leads to
The Scene with Dawn is interesting because Joyce is trying
to communicate with Dawn through Electronics, first through
the radio and she is cut off by her interpreter/monster.
Dawn tries to circumvent the interpreter by speaking to
Joyce through Knocks, but again the interpreter/monster
tries to foil this by disrupting the house. I believe this
scene is the most interesting because I think Joyce’s
conversation with Dawn in real. Dawn was able to kill the
3rd party and actually speak to the dead. (I could be
totally wrong, and Joyce could be a manifestation of the
BigBad but something in my gut tells me this is legit).
Lastly we have communicationbetween Spike and his female
friend. This scene is also interesting because the audience
doesnt not hear any of the conversation. The interaction is
through body language and it seems sincere, its seems like a
one on one conversation. In reality it is another 3way
conversation. The interpreter/blocker is Vamp Spike. It
seems as if Spike is politely rejecting an invitation
upstairs by the female friend.. and when she goes back to
see him.. he turns. This last scene is hard for me to judge
so if anyone could break this down further I would love to
hear about it.
[> Request to the board -- neaux, 11:32:14
For fear that this post might hit the archives quickly, I
wish to get some response to this post. While I'm not the
most articulate of a poster, I think this post is pretty
relevant in analyzing last nite's episode.
So if anyone has anything to add.. positive or negative.. I
would love to hear it.. or else I will fear I have written
another boring post. :(
[> [> Response -- Darby, 12:07:52 11/13/02
As happens often (and I always hope is happening with the
posts I put up that get little response - I'm so needy!!!),
I find this an interesting insight that I have nothing to
add to or dispute. But it is frustrating to see such posts
whisk away - Sara and I put one up on Sunday (probably a
mistake in itself) that dropped quickly off the ends of the
Earth that I would have loved to have seen discussed - I
think that it was in one of those weekend activity lulls,
though. Or that's what I'm telling myself.
[> Re: The role of the interpreter in
Convo'swittheDead (7.7spoil) -- LadyStarlight,
11:42:57 11/13/02 Wed
Interesting take. The more I think about it, the more I
think you're on to something. This episode was more about
communication that anything else, how we communicate and the
ways we can misunderstand what is being said. Either because
of our own internal filters or in the method of
However, I have to disagree with you on a couple of things.
I think that the manifestation of Joyce at the end was the
Big Evil. I really can't see Joyce telling Dawn that Buffy
would abandon her. That one line just did it for me;
everything else I could have seen as coming from Joyce.
And I also think that Vamp!Spike was also a Big Evil thing.
Unless Spike managed to pick Xander's pocket, how could he
pay for his drinks & pack of smokes at the Bronze? Of
course, maybe Xander's paying him to stay out of the
[> [> Re: The role of the interpreter in
Convo'swittheDead (7.7spoil) -- neaux, 12:12:37
The interesting thing about the Joyce/Dawn scene.
Yeah.. it is really tough to say if Joyce is telling the
truth or telling lies. Here are two different views.
Joyce is Bad: The fact Joyce was all glowy and Angellic
really looks out of place.. like it was indeed the Big Evil
playing up how Good Joyce was.
Joyce is Good: Her statement goes along with my
theory/speculation that the end of the season there is a
huge battle and Buffy must choose between Dawn and Faith.
Because Buffy has never felt the true reward in helping
Faith, she will choose Faith over Dawn. The reason? To help
Faith on the path towards good.
Buffy will NOT choose Dawn because Buffy' will realize that
Dawn has enough strength to handle whatever predicament that
[> Language, Interpretaton, Religion -- Etrangere,
12:47:06 11/13/02 Wed
Good post ! You're definitly on to something.
There is the mitranslation of "From beneath you, it devours"
by Andrew. I wonder how much the Scoobies also do not
understand correctly this sentence. And didn't Andrew
commented on his difficulty of getting "mexican" language ?
Also the "cuesta" error.
It's not easy understanding messages from Beyond.
And that's what religion is about. Interpretation, id est,
giving meanings to things.
Buffy tells her therapist of a vampire that there's nothing
solid about the existence of God.
That's why I don't think Joyce is more "real" than Cassie /
They didn't give any really materials about Buffy's death,
they won't just to give Dawn a warning :)
We don't know yet what means all these scenes, apart from
Willow's, we don't know yet the truth of them.
It's all about interpretation.
[> [> Interesting observation! -- Dichotomy,
17:07:11 11/13/02 Wed
Very intriguing! I noticed the mistranslations and
references to language, but didn't tie it in with the
religion component. I'm going to have to watch it again.
[> "It all adds up to you feeling alone..." --
Dichotomy, 14:15:08 11/13/02 Wed
To me, what PsycheVamp says to Buffy seems very telling and
important: "It all adds up to you feeling alone. But Buffy,
everyone feels alone. And you are. Unitl you die."
In each segment everyone was really alone—sometimes
physically, sometimes emotionally, often both.
Everyone but Jonathan began their scenes physically alone:
Buffy in the graveyard, Dawn at home, Willow in the library,
Spike sitting by himself at the bar. Jonathan, it could be
argued, was alone in his quest to right his wrongs and do
good, although he didn't know it at the time. So although
Andrew was physically there, he wasn't spiritually in the
same place as J.
And the visitors and companions (in most cases, the
interpreter) in each setting really only served to make each
character feel more alone. While PsycheVamp actually says
it, the others imply it.
Even though WIllow saw through "Cassie" in the end, her
visit still underscored Willow's lonliness and isolation:
She alone has to face the fact she "made with the flaying,"
that she'll never see Tara again, that she has doubts and
fears about her own power. Others can comfort and support
her, but no one else can truly understand.
Dawn's encounter with "Joyce" and battle with the Growly
Thing was totally solo. It was up to her to defeat GT and
when she does, "Joyce" basically tells her she's on her own-
-that Buffy won't choose her.
Spike: that's a little tougher to explain since we heard no
dialogue, but what would make souled Spike feel more alone
than siring vampires and killing people? We don't really
know why he's doing this, but he must feel some sort of
emotional torture actually doing it, and then there's the
fact that he knows these acts will only serve to isolate him
more from the Scoobies. The demon world doesn't embrace him,
so what does he have left?
And as I said before, once he'd been betrayed by Andrew,
Jonathan must have felt very alone in his last moments.
All of this points to the Big Bad. Divided, the Scoobies are
less of a threat. We've seen this before, when Spike broke
apart the Scoobies by pitting them against each other. Now
they're not against each other, but this ep seemed to say,
"yeah, but they're not exactly together either." I guess
we'll have to wait and see.
Which brings up another interesting point: Why were Xander
and Anya not in this episode? Hmmmmmm....
[> Interesting posts in this thread. Intepretation and
Perception (7.7 spoilers of course) -- shadowkat,
18:19:01 11/13/02 Wed
In a way it's a metanarrative on the audience. Whedon has
openly admitted to lurking online at Buffy Websites and
boards to see how people are perceiving his show. And he's
very interested in film that skews our perceptions of things
or is based the audience's interpretation. Examples include:
Magnolia, Eyes Wide Shut, Clockwork Orange, The Prisoner
Series, The Searchers, amongst others.
I agree with your take on this. Spike is a hard one. It's
hard for me to analyze him from a purely objective pov but I
We seem to be outside both Spike and the blond's pov. He is
dressed in clothing very similar to the Spike in the first
few scenes of Crush. He looks like a normal guy sitting
lonely at a bar. We see him drinking a shot of scotch, blood
red. We hear in the background a song about Falling but
where were you and why am I alone. This song I felt first
and formost related to Spike then connected to the others.
Odd - the music connected each scene which visually from a
casual viewers perspective may not have seemed connected at
When Spike is joined. He does not offer the woman
cigarettes. She throws him a pack. He glances at it but
never picks it up. Next scene is them casually walking down
a street. We do not hear what they are saying. But she seems
to be doing most of the talking. We do not get another
closeup of Spike until he goes into vamp face.
He did not feel like Spike in this scene. Even in vamp face,
he seemed more contained than usual - hence many peoples
view that he isn't the real one. I think he is the real one
So what is real? What is our perception supposed to be?
Where's the pov? This scene threw me - partly b/c it was the
only part of the episode that did not have a specific pov,
did not have a conversation that we heard and was not up
close and personal. It was witnessed mostly from a distance.
We were not included in the scene, we were watching it from
the most distant pov available. As if we were the casual
passerby who just stopped for a moment to watch them.
Every other scene? Up close and personal. We were right in
the pov of the main character and their emotional journey
was emphasized. In the Spike scene we see the journey from
such a distance that it appears to be the cliche - two
lonely people meet in a bar. The guy walks the girl
She invites him up. He declines. She comes back for a
He gives her the vampire version of one. Does he drain her
dry? Does he sire her? We don't know. We only know he
appears in vamp face to enjoy it - but he is after all a
I like what Dichotomy says about loneliness - I see that in
spades here. In fact of the three, it's ironic that the
biggest disconnect happens here. Why ironic? Well all the
interpreters say the same thing:
You are alone until you die. Everyone is alone until they
die. Joyce says this to Dawn regarding Buffy abandoning
Cassie says it to Willow - you're alone now, but if you die
you will be with Tara. Holden says it to Buffy, everyone is
alone until they die. Warren says it to Andrew - once you
die you become god like me. Holden also tells Buffy - Now
I'm dead things are better - I'm connected to things - the
evil that lies beneath and wants to destroy you all. Buffy
responds she doesn't feel connected.
So what about Spike? Who supposedly sired Holden.
OF all the characters in this episode he felt the least
connected, the least in control of himself, the least
himself - his own person. In the prior episodes - he seemed
to be connected to something - the SG, his love for Buffy,
and struggling to be himself. Here he felt like the hollow
man, a tool, like a radio or tv set showing a vampire movie
over and over again. Or even like the women under the spell
last week (connected to each other through the spell) but
disconnected from themselves to the extent that the
connection had no meaning and was far more lonely.
So Spike is evidence that the evil BB is lying. You aren't
connected only when you die. Life is what connects us to
each other - our reverence for it and struggle to push our
way through it, our beating hearts, our ability to love, to
care, the cell phone with Dawn's voice begging for her
sister's help on the other end. It's not electricity.
It's not death.
I'm wondering if Spike and what he does or does not do might
not be the clue on the BB and just where the BB's weakeness
lies. Why is Spike so important to BB? What does a soul
truly mean? And why do I have a feeling that Spike's heart
and soul and mind may be the SG's first battle ground?
Is it important that Spike be connected to humanity through
the SG, through his heart and soul? Isn't that part of the
reason he states for getting the soul? To fit. To be
connected to the sG, to Buffy? And isn't that also why Anya
gave up vengeance demon status? Because she also missed this
[> [> Wonderful. Thank you for your insight! --
neaux (with new stuff to ponder), 04:33:29 11/14/02
[> [> Re: Interesting posts in this thread.
Intepretation and Perception (7.7 spoilers of course) --
fresne, 12:06:16 11/14/02 Thu
Okay, normally, I’d write some huge thematic wending post,
but no time, no time, no time.
However, I have some Conversation thoughts that I want to
get out before (A) I forget them (B) the thread goes away.
So, I’m going to throw a few things out there.
1. It’s interesting that Andrew had no trouble learning a
created language, Klingon, but could not learn to speak and
comprehend (i.e., to converse in) an evolved natural
language, Spanish. Especially, since Klingon was
deliberately created to be difficult, sort of the anti
Esperanto. For example, the lack of a To Be verb. Thus the
humor of “To Be or Not to Be” in the original Klingon.
2. Holden – Catcher in the Rye. No thoughts really, but
there it is.
3. Buffy feels disconnected, but she isn’t. She is the
Slayer. There can only be one, but that’s because the ones
that came before died. She is one of a long line of Slayers.
In both the movie and the first episode, Giles/previous
Watcher discussed the Buffy’s dreams. In the movie,
particularly her dreams of previous Slayers. Her powers,
abilities, skills flow down the line. They aren’t the source
of her, she is unique. However, they are a part of her. As
her mother is a part of her. As her history is a part of
her. Perhaps part of the Buffster’s disconnect is that she
is out of the Slayer flow. However, we must not forget the
dream of the Alias girl killed in episode two. Just because
ME hasn’t shown us these dying girls for awhile, because we
have not seen Buffy’s dreaming, doesn’t mean it’s not still
happening. That Buffy won’t be confronted with the nature of
her connectedness. That the connection goes forward and back
4. Spike – I have no idea what to think. However, since I
believe Willow and Dawn’s confrontations were based on lies
and misdirection, I have no idea as to how to interpret
Spike’s scenes. I think ME is messing with my head again.
Evil therapy. Good for them.
[> [> [> Let's clutch at some straws --
Tchaikovsky, 13:51:39 11/14/02 Thu
Well, of course, Holden Caulfield's favourite expression, (a
little shocking when 'Catcher' was first published) was
'goddam phoney'. This seems somehow relevant to an episode
full of fake dead people
[> Spending the night... alone (7.7 spoilers) --
Tyreseus, 21:31:15 11/13/02 Wed
I might argue that rather than having three characters in
each scene, there was only 1. The idea that they were
holding conversation with someone else was always
I have conversations with my deceased grandmother all the
time, but it's not really a conversation with her as
much as to her. Many of us talk to ghosts, but its
generally more self-therapy than anything else.
So Buffy talked to herself about her fears, commitment
issues, superiority/inferiority complex, and parents'
divorce. VampFreud was incidental, he didn't matter, his
opinion was moot. He'd came there to kill her, not to judge
Willow talked to herself about her grief at the loss of
Tara. I don't think she's fully mourned her loss, nor is it
time to. In real life, mourning a partner can continue for
months, even years. I wouldn't be surprised if suicide did
weigh heavily on Willow's mind. So if nothing else came from
her conversation with dead people, she's set her mind
Dawn never really conversed with anyone. It was fight-scream-
whimper-scream-fight until Joyce appeared, spoke two lines
Out of all the characters, Andrew had the most actual
conversation. But his "real" conversation pal ended up dead
- possibly the only dead "people" in the episode, if morphy
evil doesn't qualify as "people." But Andrew's role seems to
be primarily that of taking orders - some from Warren and
some from Jonathon.
I don't know, just rambling at this point. It's getting late
[> [> Wow! that's an interesting thought --
neaux, 04:41:24 11/14/02 Thu
I understand your viewpoint, really cool! what you say about
Andrew Warren and Johnathan make sense.
But how bout this for a future scenario.
If this episode is about being alone, Andrew isnt fully
alone because he has the human counterpart that in
Johnathan. So Johnathan must die.
Andrew kills his "good" conscience, so he can focus on his
thoughts with Warren.
This is where it gets fun. I would absolutely love it if in
future scenes, ME plays on the Angel and Devil on your
shoulder routine with Andrew. So Andrew is still alive and
every decision comes down to Warren and Johnathan whispering
in his ear as to what to do!
(not very likely.. but would be extremely funny for a
[> [> Re: Spending the night... alone (7.7
spoilers) -- Arethusa, 09:04:29 11/14/02 Thu
IT* is trying to get each person to mistrust herself and her
power. Buffy learns to mistrust Spike, so he must be a
future source of great power for her. Willow's power, we
know, is magic, so IT tries to get her to mistrust her magic
powers. IT tries to get Dawn to mistrust Buffy, who is
teaching Dawn to be powerful.
*I'm using this name for the Evil thing, with apologies to
shadowat for co-opting it. It also is the name of the evil
thing in A Wrinkle in Time and the Steven King book,
so it seems appropriate.
Hey! What if IT didn't attack Xander in this episode because
he already conquered IT? (His spech to Willow in Grave was
similiar to one in AWiT.) Or since he has no supernatural
power, IT was unable to attack his source of power-his
heart, which IT could not hope to understand. IT's mistake
with Willow was not understanding Tara's love for Willow.
Maybe all the women need to learn to trust their hearts,
which is the source of our strength. Is Xander missing in
action in this episode and stronger this year because he
already trusts his heart?
Does Buffy have to come to terms with her vampire with a
soul ex-boyfriend before she opens up her heart, and learns
to trust it? It fits in with her coldness at the beginning
of this year, Spike's actions in this episode, and the
themes being developed.
[> [> [> Much agree-age! -- ponygirl,
09:10:17 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> Very good points, Tyreseus and
Arethusa -- Caroline, 09:47:48 11/14/02 Thu
I think that part of the irony of the title was that on a
psychological level, Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Andrew and Spike
were interacting with the darker aspects of the Self, as
represented by the Holden, demon/Joyce, Cassie, Warren and
PawnSpike respectively. Each character took a hit to their
psychological Achilles' heel through some apparent external
agent that was really only playing on their own weaknesses.
Those are the 'dead' aspects of the Self, the things that we
try to hide from others and our own conscious minds because
they are not acceptable.
I wish I had time to develop this more but must get back to
work, which is intruding on board yumminess far too
[> Re: The role of the interpreter in
Convo'swittheDead (7.7spoil) -- Slain, 11:52:49
Great, post neaux - I have many thoughts about this episode,
and I think I'll put most of them here.
Someone else in this thread pointed out that the title of
this episode was ironic - which I something is saw, in the
sense that it was a misdirect, I think, leading us to
believe that Willow, Dawn and Andrew were talking with the
dead; but in I thought they weren't, but were rather being
fooled by the mystery If-it's-not-the-First-Evil-I'll-eat-my-
hat big bad (my name for it - catchy). I didn't see that the
big bad was getting in the way of Dawn or Willow's
communication, but rather that there was no
communication with Tara or Joyce (and Warren).
But communication is, as you pointed out, what the episode
was about - but in an ironic sense, as most of the
characters were in some way misled, and weren't
communicating (cue 'Communication Breakdown' by Led
Zeppelin, at least in my head, anyway). Willow thought she
was finding catharsis, but instead the reverse happened. I
don't think Dawn spoke with her mother - it seemed unlikely
to me that she'd be able to cast out the First Evil, even
using her Dawnie-scream; instead I thought she had doubts
planted in her mind by the big bad. Andrew was misled into
killing Jonathan, his one friend in the world, just at the
moment when he was offering him a route towards some kind of
The big bad acts as an Iago figure in this episode, I
thought; as a deciever or distorter - feeding self doubt for
its own ends, trying to split up the Scooby Gang like Spike
did in 'The Yoko Factor'. Everyone in this episode is
separated out, and I think the reason Xander wasn't there
was simply a case of time constraints - or perhaps another
suggestion of his fourth-wheelness in matters Scooby.
Dawn will probably now mistrust Buffy, Willow mistrusts
herself more than before, Andrew has returned to evil. I
wouldn't be surprised if Spike's actions in this episode had
something to do with these Iago-like activities. It's
probably groundless, but how sure are we that the Shaman who
gave Spike soul back in Africa wasn't in some way involved
with this big bad? This assumes that the Spike we saw
is Spike, the likelihood of which I'd personally put
a small sum of money on.
Buffy has the only true, beneficial conversation; as has
been pointed out, Holden performs the traditional
psychiatrist's role of letting Buffy converse with herself -
the interpreter, to get back to the thread title. And of
course it wasn't just a conversation with herself; it was
with we, the audience, letting us inside Buffy's head. I've
always thought that Buffy was a mystery to us; she held back
a lot of herself from her friends and lovers, and used the
Slayer side of her as a mask, as if they were a real Buffy,
separate from the Slayer, which she'd only reveal to certain
people (Angel, Spike). In her conversation she acknowledges
that being the Slayer pervades her whole life, including her
thoughts and emotions; in Season 6 she seemed to want to
switch off the Slayer part of her, and just go through the
motions of doing her 'job'. But, in coming to terms with her
relationship with her father and her lovers, she's
acknowledged that she can't separate out the two; that her
superiority inferiority complex is part of her personality,
and that she hasn't some inner Buffy she can let people see;
is she were a stick of rock, she'd have 'Buffy the Vampire
Slayer' written all the way through (in very small letters,
All in all a brilliantly unexpected episode, for me - not
just because of the revealations, but because of the style -
lots of talking, almost no action; emotional resonance, but
not a rocket launcher in sight. Certainly what I'd expected,
namely BtVS making its way back towards the style of earlier
seasons, might be itself a misdirect; here the idea of the
Scooby Gang going back to a 'lighter' style that was
suggested by 'Him', and most of the season so far, is turned
on its head. So I'm wondering if Buffy Year One is being
rapidly replaced by Buffy Year Seven; which is itself a
mystery: 'You think you know who you are, what's to come?
You haven't even begun.'
[> [> Misdirection (Spoilers 7.7) -- Sophist,
13:07:52 11/14/02 Thu
Willow mistrusts herself more than before
I would think the opposite. Since Willow realized she was
being played, she should be more inclined to trust Giles's
advice and perhaps herself.
Of course, if the BB-whatever-it-is were really clever, it
might reason thusly: Willow's use of magic poses a risk to
her and to everyone else. I want her to use that magic in
order to increase the risk. I'll tell her to stop
altogether, but have her realize I'm trying to play her.
She's smart enough to decide that if I don't want her to use
magic, magic is what she should use. Mission
Then again, Vizzini tried this approach in The Princess
Bride and look where it got him.
[> [> [> LOL! Vizzini! Was Wallace Shawn
brilliant, or what? -- cjl, 13:59:31 11/14/02 Thu
Hazardous to reach a full conclusion when you only have half
[> [> [> Re: Misdirection (Spoilers 7.7) --
Slain, 14:10:41 11/14/02 Thu
And Iago, while clever, didn't exactly end up well.
Perhaps it is a double feint, but to me it would seem a bit
pointless for the big bad to materialise itself, to only
confirm Willow on the path she'd already taken. However, the
fact that it was so blatant and transparently so perhaps
Willow does have more faith in her magic now, thinking that
this path goes against what the evil apparently. Certainly
the big bad didn't seem particularly bothered that Willow
found it out, which is something else which reminds me of
the First Evil; its plan seemed fairly tenuous in 'Amends',
as if the most important thing was the carrying out of it,
the causing of pain, rather than the details.
Or perhaps the big bad (I have to keep stopping myself from
calling it the First Evil) isn't as subtle as all that, and
relies too much on taking advantage of a disordered mind
(Spike, Andrew), as the First Evil did with Angel. Both
Willow and Dawn are disordered by grief, and vulnerable
through it, but both of them still have their wits about
them, whereas Andrew and Spike don't necessarily seem
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