November 2002
posts
Chat party for anom's birthday!! Come all!! --
LittleBit, 21:04:48 11/13/02 Wed
[> I'm experiencing technical difficulties--but Happy
Birthday, anom!! -- dubdub ;o), 21:41:51 11/13/02
Wed
[> [> sorry to hear it (the 1st part)...but thanks
for coming! -- anom, 21:54:26 11/13/02 Wed
[> Missed the party. Hope BD was perfect! --
vickie, 23:01:11 11/13/02 Wed
[> An *eloquent* Birthday greeting ;) -- Kethry,
23:26:00 11/13/02 Wed
hippo birdie two ewe
hippo birdie two ewe
hippo birdie deer anom
hippo birdie two ewe
okay... maybe you guys were right and delurking wouldn't be
that scary.
~Kethry
[> [> yay! welcome to the board, kethry! --
anom, 00:18:59 11/14/02 Thu
I'm honored to have inspired (?) your 1st post here. And
Boynton is always appreciated.
[> [> Yay Keth! -- LittleBit, 10:22:38
11/14/02 Thu
As your namesake found out, that which we fear most turns
out to be not fearful at all.
The next step is "Great post! Thanks!" which can be
inserted, well, practically anywhere. ;-)
[> belated happy birthday, anom -- marie,
01:08:33 11/14/02 Thu
hope it was a brilliant one...
marie
[> I missed out.. but Happy Day anyway! -- neaux,
04:17:28 11/14/02 Thu
[> Re: -- aliera, 05:04:54 11/14/02 Thu
A very belated happy birthday anom.
May next year and the coming years bring you the joys,
friends and journeys you love best.
[> Jeez, I miss all the good chats! Happy birthday,
anom. -- LadyStarlight, 06:06:49 11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy birthday, anom! -- Sophie, 06:23:16
11/14/02 Thu
[> belated happy happy! -- ponygirl, 06:30:55
11/14/02 Thu
[> [> From me, too. @>) -- CW who always
likes your cyclops, 07:20:58 11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy Birthday anom - Go Scorpions! -- fresne,
07:07:00 11/14/02 Thu
[> Sorry I missed it - happy birthday anom --
Caroline, 07:18:16 11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy birthday, belatedly! -- Arethusa,
08:30:41 11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy Birthday, Anom! (Sorry, chatty rooms not my
thing...) -- cjl, 08:54:44 11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy birthday anom ! -- Ete, 08:54:59
11/14/02 Thu
[> Happy B-day, anom! So sorry I couldn't make it to
the chat! -- Rob, 10:15:32 11/14/02 Thu
Attn: AtS fans! Question from a Newbie! -- Rob,
23:20:37 11/13/02 Wed
Hey, guys! As most of you know, I'm currently watching all
of the old episodes of "Angel," in order, and actually just
finished "Happy Anniversary."
I have a question about Wolfram and Hart and their overall
plan for Angel. I am having a little trouble figuring out
exactly what it is. Did they have a set plan for Darla the
moment they brought her back? I know the syphillis thing was
always there as a contingency, but, as was implied, was the
plan always to turn Angel dark but not Angelus? Or did they
just modify their plan when they realized, after "Dear Boy"
that Angel wouldn't have a moment of happiness with
Darla?
Was the whole course of action from the original Darla-
planting-herself-in-Angel's-dreams to Darla-being-turned-by-
Dru planned from the start? Or did they make it up as they
went along? In other words, how "all-knowing" are Wolfram
and Hart in this? Did they foresee every single move and how
each emotional manipulation would play out? Or did they just
have a lot of backup plans?
And what made them decide to use Drusilla at that point? I
kind of got the idea that that was Lindsey who made it
happen then, since with his crush on Darla, he wanted to
make sure she would be "saved," when Angel refused to. Was
it Lindsey? Or was he acting under orders? Or did W&H
execs play him again as usual, and when he did it, it was
playing into their hands?
I know this is a whole bunch of questions. Sorry, but my
brain is racing!
Please, no spoilers for episodes after "Happy Anniversary,"
if you can help it! If necessary, a slightly spoilery but
vague sum-up is okay. Thanks a bunch!
Rob
[> Re: Attn: AtS fans! Question from a Newbie! --
Dan The Man, 01:23:56 11/14/02 Thu
The question, you are asking is basically:
How much did Wolfram and Hart plan and how much did they
just decide to have happen?
That is really hard question to answer, especially since we
are not quite sure how far reaching Wolfram and Hart are.
The senior partners are repeatedly mentioned and seem to be
some sort of extremely evil beings but we are not sure what
they are or where they are at exactly.
Remember these lines from episode 2.7 Darla:
Holland: "Lindsey..."
Lindsey: "You played me. You played her."
Holland: "We had to make you believe it Lindsey."
Lindsey: "Why?"
Holland: "Because she has to believe it, because Angel has
to. - The Crisis needed to be real."
Lindsey: "You think now that you've driven her back to him
she's gonna give him that perfect moment of happiness? He's
gonna come on our side? Won't happen. He's noble. He'll
never take advantage of her - not in this state, not now."
Holland: "Lindsey, you don't understand our friend at all.
We know there is no prospect for physical intimacy here. -
So you needn't torture yourself."
Lindsey steps closer: "Then what do you expect him to do?"
Holland: "What he will do. What he must do. Save her
soul."
From this dialogue and several others, it is safe to assume
that Lindsay definitely is less aware of what is happening
at Wolfram and Hart than Holland was. Holland doesn’t seem
to know it all either, because he seems to be genuinely
afraid and surprised when he and the other lawyers are stuck
with Darla and Dru. Also in Happy Anniversary, Lorne tells
Angel that the lawyers had it coming, the only question was
whether Angel would be involved or not. So if Holland was
all knowing, he should have seen it coming. The senior
partners on the other hand could have seen it coming and
been fine with Holland being killed by Darla and Dru.
Remember that the only thing the senior partners seem to be
interested in is that Angel will be a major player in the
apocalypse and they want to make sure that he is on their
side. So that makes lawyers like Lindsay, Holland, Lilah,
etc. completely expendable.
We, the audience, find out some interesting and cryptic
things about Wolfram and Hart as the season continues and
maybe some of those will help you with answer that
question.
IMHO, it looks like they knew quite a bit about their plan
but exactly how much they knew is still open for debate.
Also, remember that both Angel and Buffy continuously
confront all knowing and prophecy spouting foes. These
enemies usually seem fairly threatening and talk all high
and mighty about what is to come and how they can’t be
stopped and yet they are stopped, despite all the knowledge
and the prophecies that they know of. Almost all of the
season arc villains in Buffy at least attempt to generate
this type of aura and succeed in playing our hero for at
least a short period of time. One example of this is in
Prophecy Girl the season one finale which contained these
three passages:
Giles: Listen. Some prophecies are, are a bit dodgy.
They're, they're
mutable. Buffy herself has, has thwarted them time and time
again, but
this is the Codex. There is nothing in it that does not come
to pass.
Angel: Then you're reading it wrong.
Giles: I wish to God I were! But it's very plain! Tomorrow
night Buffy
will face the Master, and she will die.
------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Master: You tried. It was noble of you. You heard the
prophecy that I was about to break free and you came to stop
me. But prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you
everything. (whispers) You're the one that sets me free!
(gloats) If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. (whispers) Think
about that!
------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Master: Yes. Come forth, my child. Come into my world.
Buffy: I don't think it's yours just yet.
The Master turns his head and stares at her in surprise.
Master: You're dead!
Buffy: I may be dead, but I'm still pretty. Which is more
than I can
say for you.
Master: You were destined to die! It was written!
Buffy: What can I say? I flunked the written.
Also remember the final moments of To Shanshu In L.A. (1.22)
where the entire meaning of he passage about the Vampire
with a Soul is completely changed with the translation of a
single word.
I hope my rambling works as something resembling an
answer.
Dan The Man
[> W&H consider Angel a Free Agent and want to
sign him up for their side. -- Rufus, 01:35:17
11/14/02 Thu
In the end times it appears Angel has a pivotal role to
play....only thing.......no one knows which side he will
play one.
First Lindsay and Lilah, now mainly Lilah seems to be
handling the hopeful contract signing they may get Angel to
do if they could only turn him dark.
The Senior Partners have made one thing clear......all the
little lawyers they employ are expendable......Angel
isn't.
[> [> Another Angel question, but spoilers to
present -- Rob, don't read! -- yez, 06:55:46 11/14/02
Thu
I've only been watching Angel for a couple of seaons, so
I've been having to piece together backstories, but might
having another vampire with a soul (Spike) affect the
prophecies involving Angel? Do they make general reference
to a vampire with a soul, or do they identify Angel by name?
Thanks.
yez
[> [> [> Re: Another Angel question, but
spoilers to present -- Rob, don't read! -- CW,
07:17:45 11/14/02 Thu
Always it's "the vampire with a soul." As long as Angel and
Buffy are on seperate networks in pratical terms their
universes are going to be separate. So, it's Angel in the
prophecies. In literary terms, "the warrior for good"
referred to as "the vampire with a soul" in the prophecies
is Angel. Spike is at best ambiguous now, neither exactly
good nor exactly evil. Although last night's Buffy may have
changed that.
[> [> [> [> Thanks, though I'm opposed to ME
having 2 separate universes now. -- yez, 08:01:30
11/14/02 Thu
I just can't get over the fact that it's been established
that these characters exist in the same universe from the
beginning, Angel being a spinoff and all, plus that's been
reinforced with actual crossovers of characters as well as
just passing references to the other show's characters. So
it just bugs me from a continuity standpoint. I have to hold
out hope for some kind of integration at some point, perhaps
stupidly.
OK, venting over. Thanks again.
yez
[> Where do you get old episodes of AtS? -- luna,
07:17:00 11/14/02 Thu
Help! I can catch up with BtVS on FX, but where do we get
old AtS?
[> [> It isn't airing anywhere yet... -- Rob,
10:10:38 11/14/02 Thu
I got my old episodes from Masq, who was kind enough to make
tapes for me. Otherwise, the first season of "Angel" is
coming out on DVD on February 11th, with each other season
to presumably follow each six months or so.
Rob
[> A brief history of W&H and Angel -- Masq,
07:26:56 11/14/02 Thu
When Angel first came to LA and made himself known to
Wolfram and Hart, they pretty much just wanted the champion
of good dead. That's why they sent Faith after him, to kill
him. Then after a couple of failed assassination attempts,
they just wanted him out of their hair. They tried to get
Kate to arrest him (this is at the end of the 2-ep Faith
arc).
Sometime between "Sanctuary" and "Blind Date", however,
Wolfram and Hart found a prophecy. Now this is where it gets
a tad bit confusing. The prophecy Angel steals from the
Wolfram and Hart vault is the prophecies of Aberjeran, i.e.,
the "Shanshu" prophecy which says that the vampire with a
soul will fight many fierce battles and earn his humanity.
Is this the same prophecy that says, "The vampire with a
soul will be a major player in the apocolypse"?? They could
be the same thing, they sound similar. However, Wolfram and
Hart see this "second" prophecy as ambiguous--they cannot
interpret whether it means that Angel will fight on the side
of good or evil. The Shanshu prophecy seems to indicate he
will definitely be fighting on the side of good.
Regardless of what all the prophecies say, Wolfram and Hart
believe Angel could go either way in the end, so it is their
official policy to get him on their side. This was the whole
point of bringing back Darla. She is the mother of Angel's
bad side, the one who took all his human weaknesses and
insecurities and created a monster out of them. They hope to
use her to make Angel dark.
Now does that mean "Angelus" or just "dark souled Angel"?
Again, things get murky. I personally believe Wolfram and
Hart knew all along that they wanted dark souled Angel,
because that is what the prophecies talk about--the vampire
with a soul will be the player in the apocolypse. I think it
is Darla in "Dear Boy" who believes they want Angelus,
because when she thinks of evil Angel, naturally, she thinks
of Angelus. Angelus is what she wants.
What I think Holland and W&H wanted from Darla is
something different. They wanted her to torment Angel, to
bring out his lusts, his resentments, his darker urges, all
the nasty things that people with souls harbor inside of
him. They want to get him in touch with his darkness so
he'll head down that slippery slope the way souled people
like Faith, Warren, the Mayor, etc did.
They created a human Darla that would eventually seduce
Angel into turning her back into a vampire. If they could
get him tormented and crazy enough to cross that line and do
an act he wouldn't normally do, he would start to question
his own morality, the way Warren did after killing Katrina,
he might justify his actions by deciding he was
irredeemable, and start down that slippery slope.
I think Holland also hoped Angel would kill Lindsey and
Lilah, because that act would have the same effect of
getting him to question his moral center. Of course, he
would have done it because they pushed him over the edge
with their tormenting.
So when Angel locks the W&H team up with the vampires, I
think the Senior Partners didn't care. They have a larger
agenda than a mere 13 lawyers. They believe they'd succeeded
in giving Angel that act that will throw him into moral
chaos. And indeed, Angel kicked his friends out of the hotel
and started training to kill, to go on the offensive using
methods not that much different from his enemies.
So, bottom line, they want a dark souled Angel who will
fight on their side when the time comes.
It's a tricky business that they can't plan to the letter,
because Angel is the wild card, they can't anticipate his
actions, only manipulate them.
[> [> I appreciate that summary, too, thanks. -
- yez, 08:07:37 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> Thanks, guys, all your responses are very
helpful! And thanks for the spolier warning, yez! --
Rob, 08:47:46 11/14/02 Thu
Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and Speculation
(kinda long) -- Deb, 07:18:46 11/14/02 Thu
Halo! I've been gone for awhile and I haven't had time to
read all the wonderfully interesting posts on "Talking With
The Dead," but I need to post and run.
Spike -- I see stimulus-response in that when the blond
woman came over to the bar, the first thing she did was
place the box of ciggs. beside Spike's drink, the same ciggs
that Spike used to smoke. I haven't seen Spike/William/???
smoke once this season. If I hade been in that basement,
fighting off other peoples thoughts and words, I'd be chain
smoking (if I smoked.)-- The only other time Spike "smoked"
was when leaning on the cross, and William was asking Buffy
if they could "just rest." His eyes were closed as if he
were very sleepy. -- Also, a screen was used so that the
scene would be hazy. This creates the feeling of "not quite
right" or "not quite real."
Spike/William looks over at the ciggs and then he becomes
more animated (just "more"; not a lot) when the woman asks
if the seat is taken. The mo scene pans Spike so that this
multi-colored (lamp?) out-of-focus glides over his face. The
music is running scales in a minor key that was used by
Mozart, and others since, to build tension and announce the
coming of something terrifying. (From Don Giovanni. This
scene ends with the Don being dragged by demons into a firey
hell. Interestingly enough, the two characters in this scene
who represent the Don's shadow and trickster; or superego
and ego -- Freud; and conscious and supra conscious -- Jung,
flee and hide when the "raised from the dead" "totally fear
instilling" "totally fascinating so that I'm slack-jawed,
breathless, and my heart is racing kind of terrifying"
statue comes for the Don. The Don and the "really scary
commadore" attempt to bring the trickster, ego, conscious
back into the scene, but it keeps hiding under a table and
pleading with God for mercy until it finally screams in
terror to echo the Don's scream as he's dragged into hell. -
- God, I love that scene.)
This is kinda what happened with Spike. Stimulus of the
ciggs. causes William to flee, Spike to attempt
unsuccessfully to hide, and the Big Bad to set up the
vamping. William is totally unaware of what happened because
he fled. With no dialogue, we hear sound effects when the
woman is vamped (she is obviously trying to scream.)
Percussion that begins loud and slowly grows fainter -- like
a scream. (Mozart used percussion to continue echoing the
scream also, and to simulate, for a moment, rapid beating of
the heart that ends with a crash) The lack of dialogue
foreshadows the scream.(i.e. the painting "The Scream.", "in
space, no one can hear you when you scream:" a scream gets
"caught" in the throat,
Buffy in Black -- (harsh) Spike. This basement is killing
you. This is the hellmouth. There is something bad down
here, possibly everything bad.
Spike in Black -- (laughs) Can't hear you. Can't hear
you.
Buffy in Black -- You have a soul? Fine. Show me.
Spike -- Scream montresor all you like, pet.
And just a quicky comment on what Spike *is* and *is doing*
in his own words:
Manifest spirits controlled by a talisman, raised to seek
vengeance. A 4-year-old could figure it.
Talisman -- chip which Spike has had since season 4. "figure
it" = make it. Spike made the talisman.
The scene was also "staged." We see the main event on stage
in front of white curtains that cover windows, and it is
brilliantly lite. If you were "inside" looking out, you
would just see Spike's and the woman's shadows from outdoor
lighting.
It is a ritual, particuairily in the deep south of the U.S.
in "voodoo" societies that when a person dies, you cover all
the mirrors and windows, or any reflective surface so the
soul will not be stolen or captured.
One more odd observation: I have a habit of making "strange"
associations. I just get these visual "bleeps" when I see
things sometimes. When Spike placed his glass down on the
bar, the woman then placed her pack of ciggs down in front
of his glass. From the camera angle, and the manner is which
the items were placed, I saw a chess game, which reminded me
that Death will play chess with a person and if that person
wins, which only happened in one movie that I remember, the
person is spared. From that moment it was a game of sorts.
First of all, what woman, with a sane mind, would go walking
outside at night with a guy whom she just met in a bar --
and a "upset" looking man at that? She was check- mated with
Death the moment she left the bar with Spike.
Dawn -- nice house redecorating. Not being a Dawn fan, I
must admit I don't pay much attention to her, but when she
had a mouthful of blood, well that screamed foreshadowing.
And her anchovy pizza diddle reminded me of Dru telling
William he had burning little fishes swimming around his
head.
Willow -- Scary. It trying to get her to commit suicide to
be with Tara. This struck me because Cassie said it's easy -
- just like going to sleep.
Buffy -- First time a therapist has paid for the session. I
don't know, but I really didn't hear anything new here
except that she called Spike her boyfriend?????!!! Tell me
I'm wrong. All that defaming and humiliation and dumping and
she now thinks he was her boyfriend? She thinks Spike does
"those" weird things to her??
Please, someone answer this question. I've read where some
of you think Spike/William didn't want to return to
Sunnydale but was forced. Why?
[> It's Conversations not Talking -- Deb's Shadow,
07:24:44 11/14/02 Thu
Alas, poor Johnny. I was warming up to him.
[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and
Speculation (kinda long) -- CW, 07:36:19 11/14/02
Thu
I forget who it was, but someone already posted that the
girl with Spike may not have been human. Your post makes me
like that theory. Everything you said points to the whole
business being no accident. If the woman is just another
manifestation of BIG EVIL then Spike's chip makes no
difference. It's all about temptation. The same with Buffy's
cordial vampire. What if it's not real? What if it's the BIG
EVIL just planting severe doubt in Buffy's head about Spike?
Most posters have already expressed doubt about ghostly
Joyce. And Cassie was an outright fraud.
[> Keeping this thread safe from the voynok demon
-- Masq, 15:09:13 11/14/02 Thu
[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and
Speculation (kinda long) -- Wisewoman, 15:21:05
11/14/02 Thu
And just a quicky comment on what Spike *is* and *is
doing* in his own words:
Manifest spirits controlled by a talisman, raised to seek
vengeance. A 4-year-old could figure it.
Talisman -- chip which Spike has had since season 4. "figure
it" = make it. Spike made the talisman.
That's a pretty big leap. Why would Spike make the talisman?
Why would he raise manifest spirits to seek vengeance on
Buffy?
"Figure it" does not equal "make it," it equals "figure it
out."
And why would he view his own chip as a talisman?
Some good points in your post, but hard to agree with these
ones.
[> [> Spike isn't "doing it" other than the fact
that -- Deb, 15:51:47 11/14/02 Thu
the entity who is is using his body. And "figure" in this
case can be defined as creating or being used as a symbol.
Webster's: "The outline or form of a thing, esp. a human
body." "An impression or appearance made." "To make a
likeness of" etc. A figure is also a person who makes the
plans for some event. A figure in crime is the "brain"
behind the operation.
Thanks!
[> [> [> Talisman could be Spike too. --
Deb, 16:59:42 11/14/02 Thu
I've also been doing some dialogue analysis. Reading the
dialogue between two characters backwards can be very
telling. Example of what Spike is now:
Buffy in Black: Get up and get out of this basement.
Spike: Scream montresor all you like, pet.
Buffy: Spike. This basement is killing you. This is the
hellmouth. There is something bad down here, possibly
everything bad. . . We'll get through this.
Spike: Never. . .
Buffy: Spike, it's me. It's you and it's me and we'll get
through this.
Spike: I could never ask.
Buffy: It's different. You're different.
Spike: I could never ask. Not after. . .
Buffy: I can help you.
Spike: I'm in trouble Buffy.
Buffy: (gently) I don't trust what I see anymore. I don't
know how to explain it, exactly. It's like I've been seeing
things. Dru used to see things, you know? She'd always be
staring up at the sky watching cherubs burn or the heavens
bleed or some nonsense. I used to stare at her and think
she'd gone completely sack of hammers. But she'd see the sky
when we were inside and it'd make her so happy. She'd see
showers. She'd see stars. Now I see her.
This is the dialogue backwards. OR when taken out of
context
Spike: "Make use of me if you want. And there's nothing
here. Just a bit of slime. Mounds of displaced dirt and
such. Whatever our beastie is, he's gone."
This backwards reading is kinda funny:
Buffy: "You got you soul back. How?"
Spike: Bit worse for lack of use.
Buffy: Your soul?
Spike: The spark. The missing . . . the piece that fit. That
would make me fit. Because you didn't want . . . (starts to
cry) God, I can't. . .Not with you looking. (drags himself
into shadows. . . I dreamed of killing you. I think they
were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you,
holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over
your . . .ending? . . . They put the spark in me and now all
it does is burn."
cont.
Buffy: This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what
happened.
Spike: First time for everything.
Buffy: You thought you would just come back here and . . .
be with me?
Spike: Well, yes. Where've you been all night?
Buffy: Spike, have you completely lost your mind?
Spike: Right, Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because
there's no spark. Ain't we a soddin engine?
Buffy: Stop it!
Spike: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to
you?
A different way of looking at things.
[> [> [> [> Re: Talisman could be Spike
too. -- shadowkat, 18:45:48 11/14/02 Thu
"A different way of looking at things."
But is it the true way? The right way? the wrong way?
another way? as David Fury once said - the fans are quite
capable of torturing themselves without our help. And coming
to all sorts of weird conclusions. LOL! Perhaps he's
right??
The story works like an Agathe Christie mystery or one of
those suspense thrillers where clues are dropped but make no
sense until you see the whole thing.
I agree with two points you make - the chip and the BB
controlling Spike.
Did Spike create the tailsman for the BB?
Well...there's a piece of dialogue you forgot.
"Those spirits they made me do things. Much as I hate to
admit it. I was weak. " - not exact, no access psych
transcripts at moment. Was he lying? Or did they make him
create a tailsman to set them free?
What hits me about Spike is not the dialogue so much as some
of the actions.
He holds his head in abject pain several times when it makes
0 sense. Most specifically in Beneath You.
Also - the dialogue?
"Buffy: (gently) I don't trust what I see anymore. I don't
know how to explain it, exactly. It's like I've been seeing
things. Dru used to see things, you know? She'd always be
staring up at the sky watching cherubs burn or the heavens
bleed or some nonsense. I used to stare at her and think
she'd gone completely sack of hammers. But she'd see the sky
when we were inside and it'd make her so happy. She'd see
showers. She'd see stars. Now I see her."
this should be Spike not Buffy, but I think this was just a
typo. And it's quite telling. Should we, should the
characters trust what they see?
Remember what Giles tells Willow? Trust your instincts.
Trust your heart?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Talisman could be Spike
too. -- Deb, 05:53:20 11/15/02 Fri
Yeah. Typo. Very tired these days.
I think he is telling us not to believe what we see while at
the same time saying William is "not available" to hear. In
the dialogue, he mentions something like putting his board
in the water and all the chalk ran. This reminds me of the
theory that says we are all born with "blank slates" that we
fill as we experience life. I think he might be saying his
slate got cleaned in some manner. Then: It got canned.
Sealed away for preservation? I don't know. It's just
speculation like everyone else speculates. It's just that
I've taught film appreciation for two years, and I can't
help but to take everything in account as a whole, and as
separate texts. (i.e. sound, lighting, etc.) The absence of
one of these elements, that are usually present, (signifier)
points to its opposite (signified).
Some might view my methods as self torturing, but they are
legitimate methods of criticism and finding the sub-texts
for clues that foreshadow and provide information. It is
much like solving a mystery in that it provides opportunity
to teach students critical thinking methods. The problem?
Most adults were never taught to think critically. The goal
is not to figure out what the author had in mind when a text
was written, but to look for all possible interpretations --
to critically analyze. And no one will ever be able to see
"all" possible interpretations, because our reality is based
upon our understanding of language, the context of the
author, the context of the reader, and shared mediated
culture represented by ambiguous symbols.
What is the pay-off is this exercise? Beside better
interpersonal relationships and better organizational
communication, it provides practice in dealing with "change"
and seeing other world views of reality. It also helps in
understanding why life is the way it is.
For example: Before 911 were we actually any more safer than
we are today? No. The level of danger was the same, if not
higher because of a lack of enough "venting." So why have
all our lives changed if the danger level has not changed?
Because something terrible happened, and we now realize our
collective "world view" was not expansive enough and we are
reinventing our reality, which now includes the possibility
of dealing with terrorism at any point in time and not being
capable of predicting it to the degree that it can be
eliminated.
[> [> [> Re: Spike isn't "doing it" other than
the fact that -- auroramama, 18:34:12 11/14/02
Thu
As in =Figures of Earth=? That's definitely Spike, and
always has been: "It is the figure of a man, which I make
and remake but cannot quite get to my liking." (Forgive my
misquoting.) (And note that the geas to "make a fine figure
in the world" came from Dom Manuel's mother. Spike's
instructions about the kind of figure he ought to make seem
to come from both his mothers -- William from his birth
mother, Spike from his sire.) But I don't necessarily agree
that he made the talisman. He has access to Spike's
memories, and that's a hundred years of interacting with
demons and other evil forces; he may simply remember the
facts he recites. I think the reference to a four-year-old
is significant, though.
auroramama
[> [> [> [> Speculation on my part, but I
think it's important too. -- Deb, 05:59:05 11/15/02
Fri
[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and
Speculation (kinda long) -- Rufus, 17:02:16 11/14/02
Thu
Spike/William looks over at the ciggs and then he becomes
more animated (just "more"; not a lot) when the woman asks
if the seat is taken. The mo scene pans Spike so that this
multi-colored (lamp?) out-of-focus glides over his face. The
music is running scales in a minor key that was used by
Mozart, and others since, to build tension and announce the
coming of something terrifying. (From Don Giovanni. This
scene ends with the Don being dragged by demons into a firey
hell. Interestingly enough, the two characters in this scene
who represent the Don's shadow and trickster; or superego
and ego -- Freud; and conscious and supra conscious -- Jung,
flee and hide when the "raised from the dead" "totally fear
instilling" "totally fascinating so that I'm slack-jawed,
breathless, and my heart is racing kind of terrifying"
statue comes for the Don. The Don and the "really scary
commadore" attempt to bring the trickster, ego, conscious
back into the scene, but it keeps hiding under a table and
pleading with God for mercy until it finally screams in
terror to echo the Don's scream as he's dragged into hell. -
- God, I love that scene.)
All this talk about hell.....hmmmmm I wonder if hell is
something you earn or if it is a state of mind that is
chosen? How much does Williams state of mind have to do with
the killing we saw in CWDP? And, if the insanity is William,
is the cure also contained withing what Spike once was?
[> [> Interesting questions -- Deb, 06:35:02
11/15/02 Fri
My personal opinion is that we earn hell by creating it. If
we didn't create it we wouldn't earn it. ;)
I think William needs Spike as much as Spike needs William,
so it is to Spike's best interest to try to remain present,
because of the stimuls-response William can't. This reminds
me of something:
When Willow, Buffy and Xander "visited" Spike in the
basement, Spike told Buffy something to the effect of - You
are glowing. What word means glowing? Gotta rhyme. -- He
also told Buffy she was glowing at Anya and Xander's anti-
marriage. In the first instance, Willow had unintentionally
made it so she could not see Buffy and vice versa. The spell
was on Buffy, so glowing would be how Spike saw Buffy -- not
totally material, but a shining ghost-like Buffy or an aura.
He was lucid enough to figure out what was going on, but the
context, the situation, was bonkers.
In William's first encounter with Dru, she tells him that
his *friends" couldn't see his strength, and neither could
he. She then pointed to his heart and head and said
something like: these are your strengths (and burning fish
swimming around his head). This next part is a little more
difficult to paraphrase: She then said something like he was
a person who saw other worlds and places no one else did.
and he agreed. Anyway, before this, when he was writing his
bad poem, he was looking for a word that rhymed with
gleaming, which means the same thing as glowing, which can
be associated with the soul as an internal light.
I can't speculate on what this means, but I feel as if it is
a clue.
If anyone hasn't noticed, I have a very personal interest in
language usage and communication in general. I am fascinated
with visual rhetoric . . . Oh heck. When they psycho-babble
vamp told Buffy that everyone was alone until they die, I
knew what he was saying. We live in a physical plane that
lends itself to manipulation of energy to separate all of us
from one another. Pure communication is not possible because
we only hear the words. We don't hear the thoughts or feel
the feelings that led to those words so we will always be
alone in our heads until we die. Unless, of course, we are
in a situation like Spike.
[> You make me wonder -- Vickie, 17:37:10
11/14/02 Thu
Why would the William part run away from the cigarrettes? I
can see that, if it did, the demon part might be running the
show. And the demon might be able to resist the pain of the
chip, or bigbad might have disabled it. Also...
Why do you think the woman with Spike wasn't human? And why
do you believe she was sired? I saw Spike drink her, but I
didn't see anything else.
Finally, both Spike and Dawn have blood-filled mouths
towards the end. Dawn's apparently wasn't real or was
healed. It was her own blood. Spike's apparently was real,
and the blood belonged to another. I have no idea what this
means, just an interesting almost parallel.
BTW, Buffy never called Spike her boyfriend. Holden said
that. She didn't correct him, though.
[> [> Re: You make me wonder -- luna,
18:14:30 11/14/02 Thu
I'm of the party that thinks Spike's girl was not real. It
seemed that there was a pattern in the episode--each of the
other sections was about someone dealing with a dead person
(title, emphasized by being included for the first time) and
only Spike's would have been different. And she had the same
effect on him that Holden had on Buffy, Joyce on Dawn,
Cassie on Willow, and Warren on Jonathan and/or Andrew: to
tempt both with happiness and with evil, and to separate
from all the others. I think the BB will be defeated only by
all the Scoobies, including Spike, acting together, and the
attack will be psychological/spiritual. This episode was
about attempts to isolate them from each other, just as the
earlier episodes brought them back together.
[> [> [> Re: You make me wonder -- Sarand,
09:15:02 11/15/02 Fri
In the scenes between Spike and the blonde in the bar, Spike
would have been the dead person with whom the blonde was
having a conversation. Thus, all the scenes would have a
person having a conversation with a dead person. Doesn't
mean that there weren't other things going on; just pointing
out that she didn't have to be dead for the title to work or
for the Spike scenes to fit with the theme of the other
scenes.
[> [> Regarding smokes -- Deb, 06:49:09
11/15/02 Fri
The package of smokes were the stimulus that told William
that the BIG BAD had arrived or was coming. Running was the
response.
I don't think the woman wasn't human. I think she was being
manipulated by BB too. I was asking why some others thought
she was not human. I agree that the whole thing was a set-
up, but I think she was just used.
One other thought on the "bite scene." The camera angle was
such that we looked down upon what was happening. It has
been proven that people, under extreme situations, are
capable of removing their conscious from their bodies and
float above. This is just a thought: What if what we were
seeing was William's POV?
I think they did a great job with the sequence. I actually
put my hands over my face and peeked through my fingers.
Question about Morphy (Spoilers for BtVS S7, ep 7.7)
-- cjc36, 07:33:45 11/14/02 Thu
Azura Skye did a pretty scary performance in Conversations.
I'm wondering, when we're down to the last 7 or so episodes
this spring, should Morphy (or First Evil, Satan, Anti-
Clause, whatever) finally settle on a 'final' form? Should
it be someone we know, or someone new? The biggest of bads,
one could argue, needs a face all his/her own.
Personally, I think someone from the past should be the
final form.
[> All roads lead to... (Spoilers for BtVS S7, ep
7.7) -- Darby, 08:36:21 11/14/02 Thu
If it would be burning too many bridges (but it is, so it
won't happen), it'd be great for the BB to secretly off
Giles and for ASH to play BB for the final
confrontations.
You weren't expecting me to say Spike, were you? Although
that might be an interesting way to go, as well, and
probably workable, as it's hard to imagine how Spike would
fit into the potentially Buffyless universe we'll get if
Sarah doesn't re-up.
[> [> Re: All roads lead to... (Spoilers for BtVS
S7, ep 7.7) -- leslie,
09:16:34 11/14/02 Thu
"as it's hard to imagine how Spike would fit into the
potentially Buffyless universe we'll get if Sarah doesn't re-
up."
Oh? Wouldn't he carry on exactly as he did over the summer
that Buffy was dead? And couldn't you have said the same
thing about Angel any time up to the point he got spun off?
I think Spike is actually the character with the most
potential autonomy, since he actually *had* it before
meeting Buffy.
Though personally, I think he should go home to England and
annoy Giles on Ripper.
Bite the Hand That Be You (Spoilers to date) --
Darby, 07:38:08 11/14/02 Thu
Watched Restless again. Got some ideas.
The Slayer is supposed to be a super-footsoldier in the
fight against Evil. Powerful, but subservient and
expendable.
A tool. The only one like it in the belt.
But along comes Buffy, who doesn't fit the mold. She resists
the power, finds ways to not die and slips comfortably into
the role of general. She gathers a group of other tools to
help her.
She is no longer the tool.
She is the Hand.
But she doesn't want to be the Hand. She resists it, hates
the decisions that it forces her to make, the
responsibilities that Slayers were not meant to shoulder
(sorry, wrong body part). The Power of the Slayer dates back
to when women would never be warriors, strategists, but
times have changed, and Buffy is dealing with Female
Empowerment in a Brave New World. No wonder she feels like
she's not up to handling all of that, especially when she
cuts herself off from the support that allowed her to reach
this position in the first place - so much so that she
doesn't feel worthy of that support.
I believe that this season will be about the re-
establishment of Buffy's connections - to her friends, to
her lovers, to her Watcher and the Watcher's Council, to her
power and her place in the world. To the world of vampires
and demons. Back to her Beginnings, but with the
understanding that comes with maturity and experience. To
the roots of her own, personal power.
But first she must overcome those doubts brought to light in
Conversations With Dead People. Because you know how
self-doubt works: From Beneath You, It Devours.
They keep telling us it's all connected.
- Darby, suspecting that all of the capitalizations are
getting a bit irritating.
[> Let those who will be irritated be irritated --
CW, 07:54:34 11/14/02 Thu
I think your presentation was well justified. So is the
thought you're expressing. Maybe the episode wasn't as
obscure as it first seemed...
[> Finally, a positive understanding of Buffy; I love
this post - Thanks -- Dochawk, 09:43:30 11/14/02
Thu
[> I like the capitalizations; they underline the fact
that the Beneath You demon is Very Bad, Indeed! -- Rob,
10:35:19 11/14/02 Thu
[> I think I've seen "Female Empowerment in a Brave
New World" in my old university library -- Slain,
11:56:45 11/14/02 Thu
London Meet up -- Rahael, 08:07:36 11/14/02
Thu
Just trying to move this along.
So far, we're thinking of the weekend of 23/24 November,
right?
And I think that Yabyumpan and KdS are coming along.
Which day would you guys prefer, Saturday or Sunday? and
where would be a good place to meet up?
Let me know here, or via email. Or do both! Maybe we can get
more people!
[> Re: London Meet up -- pr10n, 09:16:35
11/14/02 Thu
Rahael:
Tried to convince Wifey that 7 time zones was not too far to
go for a Buffy confab, but she wouldn't go for it.
Sounds like you'll have fun, though. I hope it works
out!
[> Please e-mail me, Rah -- Wisewoman
, 10:02:11 11/14/02 Thu
[> Not an RSVP but... -- Deeva, 10:08:39
11/14/02 Thu
I will be there February 11-15. And I'm wondering how cold
it will be. I'm trying to figure out what to pack. And, of
course, what to shop for. ;o)
[> [> Re: Not an RSVP but... -- yabyumpan,
11:16:43 11/14/02 Thu
Expect very cold, raining, poss snow, brrrr weather. Feb
tends to be one of the coldest months in the UK.
And Rah, re: the meet, either would be fine although I might
be more awake on the sunday ;-). Actually, if you and KdS
can make it, the following W/E would suit me better. If not,
then what we've got planned is fine, don't want to cause any
upsets :-)
[> Either day's fine -- KdS, 11:56:04
11/14/02 Thu
Somewhere relatively central is best for me. The only
problem is I'm seeing Harry Potter at 5:30 on Saturday, but
I thought we were talking about lunch.
Do you think you could email your email address if you don't
want to put it on the board?
more human than human (7.7 spoiler/ponderings) --
neaux, 08:28:17 11/14/02 Thu
Is the reason Xander and Anya were left out of this episode
because they are straight up humans?
I would like to suggest that Buffy, Spike, Dawn, and Willow
were singled out because of there "more human than human"
status.
But this notion would be negated when you include Andrew in
the mix, right?
or is Andrew "special" too?
[> Re: more human than human (7.7
spoiler/ponderings) -- pr10n, 09:08:17 11/14/02
Thu
That was my thinking -- What have Xander and Anya got going,
except field time and courage blahblah? Not stuff Evil would
value, until later in the game when Evil smacks its forehead
and mutters, "Blast! I forgot the Pesky Kids Factor!"
What has Andrew got, then? Andrew's corporeal -- he can
interact with reality, in a pointy way. Is Morphy limited to
sarcasm and guilt trips? No touchee? I don't remember the
First Evil intereacting with physical reality, but of course
your mileage may vary.
If Morphy is limited to head games and Dark Jedi mind
tricks, then Andrew is the poorest of poor saps: he's got a
thing for a Thing that uses whatever tools It can.
I am reminded of an Offspring ditty: "The more you
suffer/The more it shows you really care, right?" Good luck
with that, Andrew.
[> Re: more human than human (7.7
spoiler/ponderings) -- LittleBit, 10:51:07 11/14/02
Thu
I'm not sure I agree with this. In Xander's case, yes ...
he's well-established as the one with no special powers.
While we have seen him invoke at least one spell (burning
the book), and taking responsibility for the OMWF spell, we
never see him in control of it.
Anya, while she may not be a demon any more, was still
capable of performing significant, if not Willow-level,
magic. In her original life she performed a vengeance spell
that caught the attention of d'Hoffryn, who even asked how
she managed part of it. Anya worked with Willow on the
Dopplegangland spell that brought VampWillow to this
universe. And we saw her ability to invoke nearly every
spell in the Evil Bunny Magic book in Tabula Rasa. She was a
capable assistant to Willow in Same Time Same Place, when
they used the demon locator spell.
Andrew's role in the Trio was that of demon-summoner, so he
too displayed some ability (and control of that ability)
beyond the norm.
Speculation on the Big Bad -- fearshade,
09:03:19 11/14/02 Thu
I think I know who the Big Bad is for this season.
(Lengthy)
At the end of Lessons, Morphy talks about how it's time to
go back to the beginning and that it's not about right or
wrong but power.
So I immediately began thinking that the connection had to
be somewhere at the beginning of the first season.
Then, as with others, I thought of The First from Ammends.
(Note: The entity is known as the First in what little can
be found on it, it was the entity itself that claims to be
the First Evil.) The First says "You think you can fight me?
I'm not a demon, little girl. I am something that you can't
even conceive. The First Evil. Beyond sin, beyond death. I
am the thing the darkness fears. You'll never see me, but I
am everywhere. Every being, every thought,
every drop of hate."
Finally, in CwDP, Morphy says she's tired of the good/evil
balance thing.
So, with all this in mind, I went back to the first season.
What's the first power Buffy faced after the Master? In
Season 1 Episode 3, the first power invoked against Buffy
was Hecate. That's right, Hecate!
Hecate, Goddess of witchcraft, the underworld, and night's
darkness, is the First. The First Offspring of the titans,
Perses and Asteria, thus making her the First Heir to the
underworld, and possibly the First Olympian as Zeus dare not
take any power away from her for she was stonger than him.
Hecate is a three-fold goddess. Threefold presiding over
crossroads, cemetaries, and gateways. Threefold presiding
over Sky, Earth, and Underworld. Threefold presiding over
Birth, Life and Death; as well as Past, Present, and Future.
The Big Bad(Hecate) no longer cares for the balance of good
and evil. This corresponds to Hecate as she was neither
benevolent or malevolent. She rewarded or punished according
to her own will.
When not wielding a torch, Hecate is often portrayed as
holding a key(symbol of unlocking nature's mysteries), a
rope(symbol connecting a person to rebirth/renewal), and a
dagger(symbol of cutting the ties between life and death).
This type of symbolism can be seen in CwDP in the three
people spotlighted in the episode.
Dawn(the Key) is trying to "unlock" the secrets trying to
handed to Dawn. She even uses a spell that is worded
similiarly to a ritual used to call for Hecate's protection.
Willow(the Rope) is the person trying to renew her
'connections' to her old friends and in this episode to the
spirit of Tara.
Buffy(the Dagger) is always in the middle of life and death
and holds the power to give or take either one.
The Big Bad says it's not about right or wrong, good or
evil, but about power. Attacking these 'symbols', is nothing
but a show of force to Hecate.
Hecate is the goddess of witchcraft, she was trying to get
rid of Willow for one simple reason - Willow reached a power
level strong enough to nearly destroy the world, thusly, she
would be the only one capable of stopping the very source of
magick.
Hecate's name has several meanings - 'Influence from afar',
'a-far-away-power',. She is a goddess of the moon, and when
the moon's power is used by her, the moon is known as the
'funnel of the earth' - this could be used as a term for the
Hellmouth.
Hecate is sometimes depicted in triple form - the maiden,
the mother, and the crone. Hecate is usually depicted with
her being the crone, Demeter as the mother, and Persephone
as the maiden.
Hecate is the First Goddess of the Underworld and guides the
restless spirits of the dead to the underworld, thus giving
her control over the dead. In Lessons, the talsiman must
have been dedicated to Hecate, allowing the spirits to
crossover.
I also beleive that Hecate was influencing the cult boys in
Help to kill Cassie. Cassie was a precog. What would be
worse for Hecate than have a precog join Buffy and ruin her
plans. Cassandra is also the name of a Greek prophetess who
could see the future. However, she was cursed with the sad
fact that no one would beleive in what she saw.
Hecate has the power to change shape or age at will, as well
as the power to heal or kill. She can reward people with
good fortune and luck, or punish them with bad. She can
induce illuminating visions or frightening nightmares.
Hecate is the source of all magic and the balance therein. I
beleive Willow's varied uses of magic upset that balance and
Hecate as well.
[> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- Haecceity,
09:30:59 11/14/02 Thu
Neat idea. It would figure, wouldn't it? To have a "throw-
away" big bad?
And this would certainly address the issues a lot of Wiccans
have expressed with the show not illustrating the
responsibilities/consequences of magic very clearly.
---Haecceity
[> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- Kurse the
Tormented, 10:44:07 11/14/02 Thu
Very logical input.. you know yoru Mythos well.. it would
serve that Willow is the catalyst of this apocolypse then..
which could have started from the raising of Buffy.
a Soul torn from Heaven (Buffy)
a Soul torn from Hell (Spike)
a Defender of Light cloaked in Darkness (Willow)
what is to happen.. no one can ever Tell.
[> [> Re: cool poem -- CrymsynBlood,
11:08:58 11/14/02 Thu
Have you written anymore? On the board or elsewhere?
[> [> [> Re: cool poem -- Kurse the
Tormented, 11:12:26 11/14/02 Thu
actually its an excerpt from a full length poem over this
season's BtVS.. been thinking of posting it soon.
Kurse the Tormented
[> [> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- fearshade,
11:27:13 11/14/02 Thu
I like this poem. I read your later post below and encourage
you to post the rest of it.
And yes, you could say I know my Mythos well, being an avid
greek mythos fan and a wiccan researcher.
What did you think of my connection between Hecate's symbols
and the girls? I'd like to add more, it's just wording it
properly. Feel free to add your opinions, please.
[> [> [> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad --
Kurse the
Tormented, 16:00:47 11/14/02 Thu
I think you were dead On. The Big Guy Loves to indulge in
his ancient Mythos, and routinely falls back on greek and
egyptian myth. Hecate is a prime suspect for the BB. The
usage of the Trio in opening the gate is something that she
would do, as well as manipulate the others to get them to
fall from the path of the goodies...
It will be interesting to see if your logic, and my own
personal thoughts lead somewhere close to what lord Joss has
in mind.
[> you could be right... -- lynx, 02:06:26
11/15/02 Fri
>>>Hecate is the source of all magic and the
balance therein. I beleive Willow's varied uses of magic
upset that balance and Hecate as well.<<<
when willow tried to change RJ from male to female (in Him),
it was Hecate she was supplicating.......... and she made a
point of her(Hecate) NOT liking to be interrupted!
7.7 SPIKE SPECULATION - SPOIL THIS! -- Angelina,
09:04:30 11/14/02 Thu
Hey guys, anyone think that the "real" Spike(s) was home
having a brewski in front of the TV with his ole bud
Xander?
Also, some food for thought - perhaps our darling Spike
NEVER really got his soul back at all. Perhaps the African
Demon Cave Dweller was actually the First Big Bad, First
Evil or Morphy or whatever the hell its called. Maybe that
whole ritual Spike went through was a great big ole Demonic
Hoax, perpetrated by the First Evil to gain access of
Spike's mind AND the chip, to begin the Ultimate Shenanigans
in Sunnydale. Spike the Puppet Boy at the beck and call of
Mr. Morphy. ANYTHING is better that the scenario that was
played out on Tuesday night. I would rather Spike just go
back to his old evil ways, then actually be given his soul
back and have THIS happen to him. My goodness, he never even
got the chance to acclimate himself to the whole soul thing,
which deprived me of watching William unfold, before it was
yanked out of his grasp.
Quite frankly, I am hoping for the watching TV with Xander
explanation. I cannot bear Spike being all Bite Me with a
soul. Hey, come to thing of it, is this even allowed!!!!
[> Wow, Angelina, I wish you had read my post
yesterday -- Spike Lover, 10:24:24 11/14/02 Thu
I posted yesterday "High Praise for Conversations". It is
already archived.
Actually, I don't have any problem w/ Spike biting and
killing again, particularly w/ a soul, because I believe it
was THE LOVE that inspired him to change, nothing else.
As a soulless vamp, Old Spike had high self-esteem, and well
he should have. He had survived, which is a feat for a
vampire. He was head of a gang for a number of years. He had
killed 2 mortal enemies. He could be proud. They were doing
research papers on him.
Now that he has a soul, something he never had before, he
feels guilt for all his accomplishments, and his self-esteem
has gone to nothing.
He has become the quote that he said in the Thanksgiving ep
so long ago: I came, I conquered, I feel really bad about
it.
Before, he was ok w/ Buffy treating him bad, using him,
beating him half to death in the alley last year, because
his own self-esteem was strong enough to handle it. He never
bought into the -she hates me because I am a worthless
thing.
He saw it as 'you only hurt the one you love.' He saw that
SHE was the one w/ the issues, the pain, etc. It was not
about him. (He was right.)
Now that he has a soul and guilt, he definately has issues
w/ himself. He has become a house divided. It think the
writers may say that Spike actually is doing this- because
he no longer believes he is worthy of any sort of love, let
alone Buffy's and he wants to die. The surest way to get her
to kill him (let's go out fighting) is for him to cross the
line.
However, the delicious interpretation I got from watching
the 'gentleman vampire' kill the girl is that he simply no
longer cares about rising above his nature.
(I mean, when you are on a diet and you have a real
emotional setback- it is pretty easy to give in to tempation
and go and eat every forbidden cupcake available. In your
mind, you just ask yourself, why should I continue to try. I
will never succeed. I am doomed to be overweight or a
failure or unpopular or whatever. -See Eddie Murphy's The
Nutty Professor.)
You know, likely Spike has had a rought night also of having
to listen to the voices of his victims in his head. Maybe he
bit that girl just to hear them scream in terror.-?
But also, what if the unthinkable has happened and he no
longer loves Buffy? Perhaps he too has finally abandoned
her, not physically, but emotionally. (REmember As You Were,
she comes to him and requests, "Tell me you love me." Well,
what if she went back to him and asked again, and the reply
was- 'WEll, not really. I think you have a lot of issues,
and well, no.") Would Buffy be able to survive this? And
what progress can Spike make on his own, being tormented w/
a soul, without love?
The scene at the very end of the episode (spoilers for
Conversations with dead people) -- Sophie, 09:07:06
11/14/02 Thu
The scene at the very end of the episode where Spike eats
his date
The camera shifts very little through this scene. We only
see the scene from one position, exactly as if we were
sitting in a theatre. The ability of film to allow us
multiple viewpoints, close-up shots, has been removed. The
arch of the building acts like a stage proscenium. The total
lack of dialogue emphasizes the actions and the whole
arrangement gives the scene the feeling of being a simple
skit. But it is not a simple skit.
The only exception, is a quick shot of Spike's head when he
bites the girl, which just parallels our intense interest.
When we are just watching, the scene is far away – full-body
– when we are intensely interested (sitting on the edge of
our seats), the shot is extreme close-up. The way the scene
is chopped up and shown as quick pieces in between other
scenes dealing with much weightier matters – Cas trying to
get Willow to commit suicide, Dawn seeing her Mom, Buffy
killing Holden – makes the scene feel like lightweight
background filler.
At first blush, the skit is that of any date. At the end of
the date, they guy walks the girl home and gets a goodnight
kiss at the front door. Many guys want more than a kiss, and
many try for more than a kiss, but most are civilized and
accept only a kiss. That Spike goes for the kill reminded me
of a typical bad date. Joss' metaphors are becoming really
blatant. (Of course, I could just be getting older and more
experienced in the world.) We see Spike getting a date as if
he has begun to live in a normal, good fashion that suddenly
twists and sickens – Spike turns evil and kills - much like
a bad joke. Much like gaudy humor skits done in cabarets.
Done in complete sick, bad taste just for the audience's
amusement. Except that it is not funny. Spike is feeding
again. Suddenly, everything has changed.
[> I guess you knew that was going to strike one of my
nerves -- Spike Lover, 09:53:29 11/14/02 Thu
Bad Date.?
I saw a completely different scene. I saw Spike being
depressed at the bar, and the girl coming up to him.
I saw him walk her home.
I saw her invite him in.
I saw him refuse.
I saw him kill her.
No, I definately did not see a 'bad date', but a gentleman
vampire. Yes, I am serious.
You know how vamps love to be 'invited in'. He does not do
that. Nor did he try to rape or date rape her.
He kills her- isn't that what vampires are suppose to do? It
does not seem to me like a feeding, as he dropped her too
quick. But maybe he only wanted a bite to eat. (lol)
For everyone who says (not you) that Spike was actually
killing something evil, and was not really killing an
innocent human, what do they make of the vamp shrink who
claims that Spike was his sire? Or they saying that the vamp
was actually a manifestation (like Cassie) and threw out a
name that Buffy would know? Or was the vamp lying to her to
make her mad?
[> [> I think we really don't know -- Vickie,
10:16:49 11/14/02 Thu
We know bigbaddie can impersonate the dead. I suppose it's
possible it's actually animating the dead, but they are all
really well preserved if so.
We know bigbaddie can either influence or impersonate
vampires. Maybe control them.
We don't know for certain that Holden was an agent of
bigbaddie, whether controlled or an impersonation. However
I'm inclined to think that Buffy's experience was parallel
to Willow's and Dawn's: an attempt by bigbaddie to
influence, manipulate, and possibly harm the targeted woman.
Therefore, I think that Holden was a controlled vampire, at
least.
Of course, we don't know whether Spike really was his sire,
even if Holden was self motivated. He could lie. And Spike
could have been influenced, or controlled, or driven mad
into attacking several humans. The chip could have been
deactivated (see death by stereo, etc.) or Spike could be
just toughing it out.
However, in the version I saw, Spike's mouth was filled with
blood at the end of the episode, and he looked quite
satisfied. Looked like a feeding to me.
YMMV, of course. Won't it be fun to find out what's
true?
[> [> [> my two cents -- Can I be Anne?,
11:36:25 11/14/02 Thu
On Psychotherapy:
While Buffy's experience was certainly meant to parallel the
others in the ep, it doesn't lead me to believe that Holden
was a manifestation or an agent of the shapeshifter. He
hardly seemed deceptive. He was barely motivated to kill
her. He was motivated to help her, while somewhat
reluctantly accepting the reality that they would have to
fight to the death. I think that everything Holden was
helping Buffy figure out about herself is true and essential
to Buffy's journey of self discovey and integration. In
contrast, Morphojoyce and Morphocassie made calculated
attempts to gain the trust of Dawn and Willow based on their
fears and memories, before sowing seeds of mistrust and
chaos. I think this was far less apparant to D and W than to
the viewers who had seen many views of the action.
On Spike:
I was as shocked as anyone to learn that souled Spike was
eating and siring people. Stranger/scarier still is that he
STILL HAS A CHIP IN HIS HEAD! I don't believe this is mere
inconsistancy. I doubt he has chosen to ignore so much pain.
He showed no sign of pain in the last scene. Nothing but
relish.
[> [> The Yoko Factor and cheesy sequels --
Farstrider, 12:13:41 11/14/02 Thu
For everyone who says (not you) that Spike was actually
killing something evil, and was not really killing an
innocent human, what do they make of the vamp shrink who
claims that Spike was his sire? Or they saying that the vamp
was actually a manifestation (like Cassie) and threw out a
name that Buffy would know? Or was the vamp lying to her to
make her mad?
I think Spike/Buffy/Willow (and maybe Dawn) are a powerful
force that any BB would be ascared of. Like Adam did in S4,
the BB is trying to cleave the group, at the same time that
Buffy (in Him) is trying to re-assemble it (interestingly,
cleave is its own antonym). To make use of a current phrase,
i think coalition building will be critical to defeat the BB
-- probably because the BB feeds/thrives on despair.
Please please please reassure me, though that the only means
of defeating the BB will not be everyone 'just getting
along' a la Ghostbusters II. If I see an animated statue of
liberty in 7x22, I will be very disappointed.
[> [> [> You gave me a thought! -- Sophie,
13:34:09 11/14/02 Thu
Maybe the Big Bad removed Spike's chip - sort of a deal -
Big Bad appraoches Spike and offers to remove the chip in
exchange for work/help from Spike later on. Maybe Spike is a
sort of Faust - sold his soul to Mephistopheles/Big Bad? The
chipectomy could have caused the insanity. (My apologies if
this has already been suggested!)
S
[> [> Ahhh...the wrath of Spike Lover --
Sophie, 13:39:51 11/14/02 Thu
I'm not surprised to incur your wrath once more. Be careful,
or I'll feed you to Sophomorica. :)
S
[> [> I can't answer on the grounds it would be a
Spoiler....but a hint...spoiler -- Rufus, 18:48:34
11/14/02 Thu
But you are going to see many things that will upset Spike
fans......but what is real?
[> I guess Spike decided to forget about the hurt and
go for the kill.....;) spoilers -- Rufus, 18:53:59
11/14/02 Thu
Spike turns evil and kills - much like a bad joke. Much
like gaudy humor skits done in cabarets. Done in complete
sick, bad taste just for the audience's amusement. Except
that it is not funny. Spike is feeding again. Suddenly,
everything has changed.
I thought the scene where Spike kills the girl was well
done...we never hear him speak we only see his
actions....and I wonder why they wrote it that way? Spike is
appearing to walk on the dark side, the side that Evil Spike
lovers cheer for.....but is what we saw all there is...I
think not. But, that said I think that anyone that decides
to blame Buffy or Xander or the Easter Bunny for any of
Spikes actions are way off course in what is really going
on, but I bet the Buffy/Xander/Easter Bunny bashing shall
commence.....because we all know how blameless Spike has
always been.......;)
[> [> Re: I guess Spike decided to forget about the
hurt and go for the kill.....;) spoilers -- Sophie,
19:13:06 11/14/02 Thu
I was commenting on the way the scene was written and shot.
Spike turning evil is no skin off my teeth.
S
[> [> [> Re: I guess Spike decided to forget
about the hurt and go for the kill.....;) spoilers --
Rufus, 20:10:42 11/14/02 Thu
I liked the scene and I think that maybe more people will
appreciate it in retrospect, but for now I can imagine what
is going through the minds of Spike fans and detractors.
"Beneath you" and "Slouching" the same? -- Natasha,
09:16:31 11/14/02 Thu
This may sound rediculous once I actually start to write
this message, but I've been getting the feeling that
whatever is coming to Sunnydale and what's coming to LA is
the same something. You have the "Beneath you it devours"
and "slouching towards bethlehem," it all sounds like the
same Big Bad that is the Biggest Bad that they all (the
Scooby Gang and AI)have had to fight. If this is too
ridiculous, just keep in mind that I wrote two papers in the
same night so my brain is not at it's full potential. Let me
know what you think...
[> Not ridiculous at all... -- Rob, 10:32:30
11/14/02 Thu
...Many of us here having been having the very same
thoughts, especially since both shows imply that this year
is THE Apocalypse, and both make references to the hugest
evil they have ever faced.
Rob
[> Re: "Beneath you" and "Slouching" the same? --
Farstrider, 12:03:30 11/14/02 Thu
I think you may be right. But, how will that work
logistically between the networks? Cross-overs are a no-no
now (unless some secret arrangement has been made, but that
seems unlikely to happen and unlikely that it could be kept
secret).
So, will Angel and Buffy fight the BB serially?
Simultaneously, but under a Willow like invisibility
spell?
Simultaneously fight different aspects of the same BB?
If someone can speculate more better (-er) on this than I,
it will probably shed some light on the BB.
Just a thought,
Farstrider
I hope she dies, I'm free if that bitch dies.
I better help her out . . .
[> [> Re: "Beneath you" and "Slouching" the
same? -- Blood Luvin Girl, 12:43:32 11/14/02 Thu
I think that it might be the same apocolypes, but each show
will have it's own Big Bad. As in the Big Bad from each show
are both involved with the same death and destruction on the
grand world ending scale, but are working towards it on
their own.
But I wouldn't be suprized if the seal we saw uncovered, the
one Johnathan died on, is connected with the rising of the
BB on Angel. You know Johnathan's death breaks the seal and
it allows the Big Bad of Angel as well as some other bad
stuff to be released.
What do you think?
Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec)
-- cjl, 09:28:05 11/14/02 Thu
"WHY IS SPIKE SO IMPORTANT TO THE BIG BAD?"
I was about to answer Rob's AtS post, when the obvious
answer occurred to me:
Spike is the "vampire with a soul" in the Shanshu prophecy.
Of course Morphy wants Spike on his/her/its side for the
upcoming apocalyptic battle. Cleanest explanation in the
pile as far as I'm concerned....
[> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler
spec) -- Arethusa, 09:45:04 11/14/02 Thu
I think Spike is going to be instrumental in
helping/hindering Buffy fight IT. As I stated below, Spike
might be the key to Buffy opening up her hear. Her love is
her strength, and if she learns to open up and love again,
how powerful can she become?
There's no direct evidence that Angel, not Spike, is the
vampire in the prophesies, but Lorne's readings and the
Oracles have indicated that Angel is a very important
Champion/force for good. I've learned to not underestimate
ME's ability to deceive and misdirect, though.
[> [> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious?
(Spoiler spec) -- frisby, 17:50:36 11/14/02 Thu
Yes! It is the love between Spike and Buffy that will power
the final triumph over the first evil, although Dawn
(cosmos) and Willow (earth) and Giles (Watcher's Coven and
Wicca Covens) and even Xander (humanity) will be needed too.
Buffy wants her fire back -- Spike is the key.
[> [> [> My frosted side is screaming, Yes!
Yes! -- Deb, 07:11:25 11/15/02 Fri
But my unfrosted side is saying, "Don't set yourself up for
disappointment over a fictional, television show." Still. .
.
[> [> [> [> Re: My frosted side is screaming,
Yes! Yes! -- alcibiades, 09:27:03 11/15/02 Fri
But my unfrosted side is saying, "Don't set yourself up for
disappointment over a fictional, television show." Still. .
Yeah, it's the bad boyfriend approach to watching Buffy.
If you get your hopes up, ME is sure to disappoint,
dreadfully.
[> [> [> [> Re: My frosted side is screaming,
Yes! Yes! -- frisby, 07:21:21 11/16/02 Sat
Yes, it is a fictional, television show, but (as I will
argue for my paper for my course on the "History of
Television" next semester) as a participant (spectator) in
that cultural event, I will always have some say in what I
take away from it and how I appropriate it's lessons and
make them part of my life. Personally, what I learn from the
buffyverse these days becomes food for poetry, which may end
differently than Joss decides, but still, Joss has not
disappointed me yet, and each season has improved on those
before, and I trust his consumation and completion of this
series overall will earn him this acclaim: creator of the
best television dramatic++ series ever (so far) -- the
"Citizen Kane" of tv. (And still, thanks for the good advice
-- you're right of course, but until that big disappointment
really sets in -- if ever -- I'll remain confident.)
[> [> [> [> [> I've been burnt once --
Deb, 10:39:30 11/16/02 Sat
DS9.
I agree with you totally on its what we take from the text.
I have students, though, whose lives depend upon what
happens on their favorite TV show. I tell them if they are
not happy with what's happening, go write your own show the
way you want things to happen.
"Is that an assignemnt?"
"No."
"Good. I really don't have time to think it up."
So they prefer to view the text only from the superficial,
and have their emotions rocketing all over the place like a
superball.
[> [> [> Re: Have we been overlooking the
obvious? (Spoiler spec) -- Arethusa, 08:53:55
11/15/02 Fri
No, I meant that coming to terms with Spike might help her
get over the trauma of loving and losing Angel, leaving her
open to love again in the future. I think it's unlikely that
Buffy and Spike will have a romantic relationship for two
reasons:
1. He tried to rape her. ME would be sending out a very
confusing message if they showed a woman falling in love
with her rapist. They're clever and devious enough to get
around this, but why would they want to expose themselves to
more slightly hysterical criticism?
2. Buffy probably doesn't love Spike. She didn't even like
him very much. Did she ever voluntarily spend any time in
his company when she wasn't depressed? Was there anything
about him that she liked? Did Spike like Buffy? He was very
attracted to her physically and in Entropy, I think, he said
he had wanted her because she was so raw and alive, but
remember that before he started sleeping with her, he agreed
with Faith that she was joyless and stuck-up. Vampire Spike
came to love Buffy, but does souled Spike love her? He might
not even want to be with a woman who treated him so
shabbily, and he, like Anya, has a lot of emotional work to
go through before he can start a healthy relationship.
How would it further Buffy's emotional growth and hero's
journey to fall in love with Spike? Remember, ME doesn't
create romantic relationships to give the audience warm
fuzzies; they create them to put the characters through the
kind of experiences that will result in emotional growth and
drama.
Both changed their opinions about each other over time, but
a romantic relationship now is one of the less probable
(and, IMO desireable) future consequences of their
destructive affair.
[> [> [> [> The way out? (just spec/spoilers
for 7.2) -- darrenK, 11:04:52 11/15/02 Fri
You're point about Spike being Buffy's rapist is a very good
one and could indeed be a point of extreme controversy.
But, if I were a ME writer looking for a way around this, my
logic would flow like this...
•Spike trys to rape Buffy
•Spike's conflicted and remorseful so he has William's soul
restored to him.
•Spike suffers an extreme case of multiple personality
syndrome as the inner battle rages between Spike the demon
and William the human
•William the human somehow prevails.
•William has the same body as Spike the rapist, but is not
Spike the rapist.
That's just my conjecture. Even if they go this route it
doesn't mean there's anyone living happily ever after. Not
that that's possible in our own universe, much less the
Whedonverse.
(Much more likely that everyone--especially the pets and
children-- will burn in the fiery depths of hell.)
dK
[> [> [> [> [> The naughty editor says
your, not "you're" -- darrenK (grammar/usage brainlobe
not responding to caffiene), 11:10:15 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Interesting. But a lot of
posters here seem to think... -- cjl, 11:17:21
11/15/02 Fri
...that Spike's rape of Buffy was a distinctly HUMAN action.
The vampire response to Buffy's emotional intransigence in
the bathroom would have been to either: a) rip her throat
out, or b) turn her, and make her into his willing vamp
slave. When he's back in the crypt with Clem (and again--
where the heck is Clem this year?), he kinda wonders about
that.
Part of what may be bothering Spike this season (vis-a-vis
his dealings with Buffy) is that he thinks WILLIAM, not
Spike was the bad man who tried to rape her. This would have
been a fascinating avenue to explore at length--except his
vamp half seems to be acting up again.
Oh well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Attempted, didn't
actually happen. -- Deb, 15:34:15 11/15/02 Fri
Whoever came up with the idea of the attempted rape should
be strung up by their thumbs over a vat filled with spiders,
snakes and an assortment of starving rodents, even though I
THINK I understand what they were ATTEMPTING to do, but they
chose the low road.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out? (just
spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- Arethusa, 11:53:56 11/15/02
Fri
I think anything Spike did can potentially be forgiven
intelectually for the same reasons that Angel is forgiven.
Buffy is dealing with Spike, but she has trouble on an
emotional level, because her body flinches automatically
when he touches her. His appearance hasn't changed much, and
triggers a physical revulsion in her. I was amazed to see
posters ask why she didn't just get over it, since she
wasn't raped and it was a different person who tried to do
it. But that's like telling your mouth not to water when
chocolate chip cookies come out of the oven. The body has
its own memories and reactions.
I think they won't go there because logic has no place in
knee-jerk reactions, and many people won't care how or why
Buffy would come to fall in love with Spike. They'll just
express insult-laden fury that Whedon appears to excuse a
rapist's actions.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out?
(just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- yabyumpan, 12:37:59
11/15/02 Fri
I'm really not clear as to why people would think it would
be wrong for Spike and Buffy to be together now after the
attempted rape. If people thought it was alright for Buffy
to get back with Angel in S3 because he had his soul back,
even though he'd killed Miss Calender, tortured Giles,
terrorised Buffy and her friends and tried to end the world;
why shouldn't it be ok for Buffy to get together with Spike
now he has a soul?
I'm not a S/B shipper, i really don't care one way or the
other, I just don't understand what seems to be a double
standard. Spike and Angel both did bad things with out their
souls but when Angel got his back, viewers were mostly ok
about him and Buffy getting back together and the ship still
lives on! But now Spike has his soul it seems the rules are
different. It would be unacceptable for Buffy and Spike to
be together because of what he's done. Is attempted rape
worse than murder and trying to end the world?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The way
out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- Arethusa,
17:44:41 11/15/02 Fri
It is a double standard and it isn't logical, but for some
illogical emotional gut-reaction-level reason, it really is
different. Maybe it's because women are still fighting to
get recognition of the extent of the problem.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The
way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- alcibiades,
20:00:33 11/15/02 Fri
For some of us these crimes are different in quite the
opposite way, in that Angel's crimes as Angelus are much
worse. Which is both the rational standard and the legal
standard.
I also think it is important to remember that in Spike's
mind he didn't have the intention of raping Buffy but of
making love to her -- he wasn't actually trying to be her
rapist, he was trying to be her lover or trying to get her
admit something he felt she felt for him.
It turned nasty and brutal, and the breech of trust
occurred, but it is an important difference in my mind.
Intentionality does have a bearing on law.
As Shadowkat has stated repeatedly, all this happened while
he was in the middle of a nervous breakdown.
I think it is completely different and in altogether a
different category from having a rational grip on your mind
as you torture and murder your former girlfriend's friends
for kicks and power and an ego trip because you want to
destroy the world.
Furthermore, last year on Angel showed us to what extent
Angel as Angel was willing to employ these same methods, not
for kicks but to get back his son and for simple revenge
against Wesley. And I think Joss has been making Angel pay
the price ever since. He's lost Cordy and his son, now, just
at the moment he thought he had them both in his hand. His
underwater dreams seem to be coming true. Everything is
falling apart -- he can't keep it together. And from all the
hints, it is going to get a lot worse on both shows this
year.
[> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler
spec AtS, BtVS) -- pr10n, 09:49:31 11/14/02 Thu
I was going to make this comment in leslie's thread below,
but it fits better here. leslie said: In fact, it would
appear, with the uncovering of that shield in the basement,
that the ME2 is merely a minion of the Biggest Bad to
come.
Um, whew. What if the Seal of D'Artagnan or whatever is a
summoner or altar for Way!Evil. Good thought... Oh! Did we
mention the SEAL? Open the Seal... hm, that's sorta
biblically familiar. And Lorne did mention the Book of
Revelation as source material for his vision of Cordy.
Makes you go hmmmm.
Angel gets himself a beating heart, in prep for what?
Spike gets himself ensouled, in prep for what?
What if both sides ("goodness" and "eveeel") are angling for
their own soul!vamps? Angel in white hat, Spike in black
hat, spurs jangling down the dusty street... Firefly
crossover! Um, no.
[> We are so very much on the same page! (spoilery
spec) -- Rob, 10:08:40 11/14/02 Thu
I had that thought while watching "To Shanshu in LA" for the
first time, a week ago! All it says is "vampire with a
soul," and Angel is not the only one anymore. And if he
isn't, won't that make him p#$%!, and with good reason. It
would be too cruel that after all these years of searching
for redemption, he is denied his reward of becoming human,
and instead that honor would go to Spike, who doesn't seem
to be very redemption-y at the moment at all. And because it
would be too cruel, it would make for great, Buffy-and-Angel-
worthy gutwrenching drama!
Rob
[> [> Re: We are so very much on the same page!
(spoilery spec) -- rose, 10:20:42 11/14/02 Thu
it would be a cruelty, thats never stopped ME before has it?
Its even a potientialy justifed one esspecialy if someone
(whatever was messing w/ evryone in conversations)is
currently contorling spike, as has been suggested.
after all angel's soul is the result of a curse he never
wanted it when he didn't have one and kill trying to prevent
its return.
Spike willingly sought his soul out. He had been attempting
redemption even WITHOUT his soul.Also without a rulebook,
encouragement or even acknoledgment most of the time.
if the thing in the basement haden't driven him nuts I don't
think spike wouold have undergone nearly the jeckle/ hyde
angel did, does and will do wwhen the state of his soul
changes.
[> [> We're all circling around something
significant here... -- cjl, 10:33:29 11/14/02 Thu
Spike and Angel, each a vampire a soul, a melding of the
human and demon, good and evil in the same vessel...
BtVS seems to be a lesson in growing up and learning to
balance the dualities in our nature:
Buffy/Slayer
Willow/Darth Rosenberg
SuaveXander/Buttmonkey Xander
Spike/William
Giles/Ripper
Anya/Anyanka
Each of our cast has the potential to be a big player for
either good or evil. We have the BB and the PTB trying to
maneuver ALL of them one way or the other.
The big players, supernaturally speaking, are the creatures
whose dichotomies seem to contain the most power: Spike
(vampire and human), Buffy (human and Slayer), Willow
(good/dark witch), and Dawn (the Key, whose limitless power
could be used for order as well as chaos). These four got a
workover on Tuesday.
Right now, it appears Xander and Anya won't be too
significant in the ultimate battle (both absent from class
on Tuedsay), because they're all too human, and can't
influence the outcome to any great degree. But Joss always
finds a way for Xander to take on a pivotal role, and I
don't think this year will be any different. (If anything,
Xander's humanity in the midst of all this supernatural
power might be a huge factor this year.)
"The vampire with a soul will play a big role in the
upcoming apocalypse." We've heard that a million times on
ANGEL, but now it assumes significance on BUFFY. Just as
Wolfram and Hart hope to swing a souled Angel over the side
of evil, has Buffy's BB recruited a souled Spike to fight
for darkness? (Wouldn't it be cool if Spike gave up his soul
just to thwart the prophecy?)
We've got the major themes of the season pretty well put
together, but we can't quite see the finish line yet...
Further opinions?
[> [> [> Re: We're all circling around something
significant here... -- rose, 10:50:21 11/14/02
Thu
*"Wouldn't it be cool if Spike gave up his soul just to
thwart the prophecy"*
(sorry dont know how to make the italics work)
Also somthing he would likly do and with out thinking it
first. If he did and wants to help still (very questionable
at the moment) he should make shure the BB cant still
influnce him.
buffy seems to be getting a little sick of being the slayer
and if anything he said to her when she asked him about dead
slayers was true she should hope he dosn't get it in his
head to kill a third slayer.
making the preveiws for next week that much more
unnerving.
why was she leting him that near her thinking hes hunting or
does she not belive it? or maybe doesn't think he'll hurt
her intentionally?
[> [> [> The thing I love about this season
is... -- Rob, 10:51:00 11/14/02 Thu
...although I have a lot of ideas, and have read a lot of
spec, I have honestly NO IDEA where it is really going. I
haven't felt this way about the show since the fifth season,
for although I am a Season Six fan, very few things
surprised me in the sixth season. The characters were adrift
and "slumming it," as Willow said, and for a long time, it
didn't seem like it was leading anywhere. And that was the
point.
The fifth season, arguably the last time we knew the show
was "leading" somewhere, it was a little clearer than this.
We knew that Buffy had to protect Dawn from Glory. And we
assumed that it would lead up to a final battle against
Glory, which it did. This year, though, who can say where it
is going, who the Big Bad is, etc. It is making for quite
the wild ride.
This year is filled with so much mystery about what the heck
is going on, how and where everything and every one is going
to fit in the story. We don't even know if this is the final
year or not! Everything is up in the air, and it is making
for some amazing suspense. I can honestly say that this year
I have fallen in love with "Buffy" all over again. And I
know that the winter break is going to drive me insane!
Rob
[> [> [> [> The mystery of the Big Bad --
Masq, 11:23:56 11/14/02 Thu
Season six took us out of the season pattern we're used to
having, the whole build-up of the mystery of the big bad
thing that allows us to speculate and guess and be
wrong.
It was especially puzzling in season 4, when there didn't
seem to be a big bad, but much speculation about the
Initiative kept us busy. In season 5, there was Glory, and
the whole mystery of what she was that wasn't revealed until
episode 12.
In other seasons, though, we had something we just don't
seem to have this season. We had scenes from the point of
view of the big bad. We saw scenes with the Master talkng to
his minions. We saw scenes with Spike and Dru, knew their
motivations. We saw scenes with the Mayor, got to know him,
guessed about what he wanted. We saw scenes with Glory, knew
she wanted they Key and wondered when she'd find out about
Dawn.
We haven't been in a scene with this season's bad, except
when we saw it tormented Spike in episode 1!
So we are speculating out to sea more than usual this
season.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The mystery of the Big
Bad -- Tyreseus, 11:40:36 11/14/02 Thu
So we are speculating out to sea more than usual this
season.
I agree completely, Masq.
In many seasons, ME misdirected us incredibly, leading us to
believe one guy was the Big Bad, then killing them off and
having a new Big Bad try to end the world (i.e. the geek
trio gave way to veiny Willow). We've spent a lot of time
(especially in the last two days) trying to understand the
"bottom-devouring" thing, but I'm starting to yearn for more
of that good old-fashioned philosophical/psychological
debate ... themes, symbols, etc.
[> [> [> [> I know! I can hardly wait til the
next ep! And I missed the preview. Can anyone fill me
in? -- Dichotomy, 11:37:12 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I know! I can hardly
wait til the next ep! And I missed the preview. Can anyone
fill me in? -- rose, 14:38:16 11/14/02 Thu
Spike seemed to be very popular with the ladies.
Including buffy, who was leting him up close and behind her
with no obvuios concern.
also the singer recognized him as a vampire.
[> [> [> [> [> [> The vampire who came
in from the cold. -- Arethusa, 09:17:09 11/15/02
Fri
A "sleeper" is also another name for a mole-someone who lies
in wait, undetected, until he is needed, in the foreign-spy
sense.
Is Spike now a duplex, instead of a single-family dwelling?
Is it significant that IT didn't attack Spike's roommate
last week? (Or was that part of the female
empowerment theme that IT didn't attack Xander last
week?)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The vampire
who came in from the cold. -- alcibiades, 09:40:37
11/15/02 Fri
Is Spike now a duplex, instead of a single-family
dwelling? Is it significant that IT didn't attack Spike's
roommate last week?
Of course it is significant. the question is why didn't it
attack Xander.
Either it sees subverting Xander as unimportant or less
important than Dawn/Buffy/Willow/Jonathan because of his
lack of magical ability and the lack of superpowered it aid
it can give Buffy in the end of days or it already has a
relationship to Xander we don't know about (think about how
successfully Xander is doing this year) or it hasn't tried
to subvert Xander yet.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Rose! Sounds
intriguing! -- Dichotomy, 16:36:01 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> UPN is previewing "Sleeper"
as a slice o' wacky goodness, but...(Spoilers 7.8) --
cjl, 14:40:47 11/14/02 Thu
But it seems to be about Spike seducing and draining
vulnerable young women. One shot has Anya, looking extremely
shaky, holding a stake in the air (it's not going to do you
any good up there, sweetie) as she talks to Spike. It looks
like Spike is completely unaware, even puzzled, as to why
she's terrified. Is Spike killing (if it is Spike doing the
killings) in his sleep?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: UPN is previewing
"Sleeper" as a slice o' wacky goodness, but...(Spoilers
7.8) -- Doriander, 16:05:56 11/14/02 Thu
You know when I first learned of the ep’s title and that it
was to be about Spike, I thought, will this be Spike’s
“Somnambulist”? Nice! Then I looked up the word “sleeper” in
the dictionary, not exactly synonymous with somnambulist. I
hope they go with the idea though.
Of the seven(in my dictionary at least) somewhat divergent
definitions, I’m leaning towards:
4 : someone or something unpromising or unnoticed that
suddenly attains prominence or value (the low-budget film
became the summer's sleeper)
The preview does show Spike cozying up with young women.
Now, if we are to believe Holden, he’s probably
gotten chummy with a few fellas as well. And he’s been at it
for a while now, unnoticed, until next week apparently. So
he’s a sleeper threat? Could also apply to the BigBad evil,
who’s been passive/covert until recently. Or maybe even
Andrew. Or all three. Is it Tuesday yet?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Somnambulist (spoilers, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari) --
Haecceity, 05:57:47 11/15/02 Fri
I too went straight to The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari when I
saw this! Has some definite parrallels I'd get into if I
weren't stuck at work, but quickly, off the top of my
head:
1. We don't know if Spike is being controlled or is a free
agent.
2. The somnambulist fell in love with his intended victim,
things went badly
3. There was an "evil psychologist" involved
Maybe more, later.
---Haecceity
[> [> [> [> [> [> UPN seems to be
previewing EVERY episode as a "slice o' wacky goodness."
It's getting annoying! -- Rob, 23:24:36 11/14/02
Thu
Two insane-troll-logic Theories about this year's Big Bad
(Spoilers for Buffy and other stuff, too) -- Thomas the
Skeptic, 11:36:38 11/14/02 Thu
1) This first one is probably the most insane of the two and
is definitely the most obscure. If you read the transcript
of Joss' AOL live chat currently posted on Slayage.com you
will find him mentioning the influence specific Marvel
comics had on him when he was younger, one of which was
"Warlock". This comic just happens to be one of my all time
favorites so I know the plot intimately. Adam Warlock was a
synthetically generated being who was created by a cadre of
nefarious scientists (Warren types everyone) who wanted a
paragon of perfection they could use to rule the world (of
course). They did their jobs too well, however; in his
extreme nobility of spirit, Adam violently rejected their
plan and fled into outer space to escape the squalor of
(most) human ambitions. He wound up on counter-earth, a
planet in the Marvelverse that is a skewered mirror image of
their regular earth. Through a series of adventures he was
revealed to be a modern-day Christ figure who was forced to
sacrifice himself in a re-staging of the Crucifixion to
defeat the plans of the Man-beast ( the anti-Christ figure
in this new version of the Gospels) ( Remind anyone of "The
Gift"?). Once resurrected, he resolved to travel the
farthest depths of space to uncover his destiny. To make an
extremely long and complicated story somewhat comprehensible
( this last version of Warlock was written by Jim Starlin,
who, IMHO, is almos the equal of Joss as a writer ) he found
himself at war with the Magus, an extremely powerful entity
who had proclaimed himself God and estsablished the
Universal Church of Truth to conquer all the worlds in the
known universe ( humble fellow, what? ). In the first of
many climactic moments in the series, it was revealed that
the Magus was a future version of Adam Warlock who had gone
progressively insane with the unfolding of his god-like
powers and who had traveled into the distant past to set up
his church and set certain events in motion to ensure he
would one day become the Magus ( whew! does this make any
sense? bear with me! ). I won't reveal the outcome
especially since I think Joss might use some variation of it
this year, but basically I think that not only might Buffy
find herself in league with the BB but that she might be the
BB! What we've been calling Morphy, the First Evil, etc.,
may be a future version of Buffy, imbued with powers far
greater than she currently possesses, who has decided to
travel to her past and end the whole Evil vs. Good dichotomy
in a final, nihilistic blow-out that will resolve everything
by destroying everything. I know ME has never used a time-
travel plot before and I confess there is a certain amount
of cheese in this idea but, come on, won't you admit the 12
year old fanboy ( or girl ) inside you is saying "cool!"
right now? 2) The second theory I like much less and
actually hope they don't use but, considering how sadistic
Joss and ME can be, they might. Everything we have seen so
far this season may just be the product of a mind entering
the final stage of full-on schizophrenia. That's right, this
could be more of the ravings of mental-asylum Buffy and the
Big Bad is nothing more than her warped perceptions of the
final efforts of her doctors to return her to sanity.
Frankly I hate this idea more than words can tell but I know
I'm not the only one who has been deeply frightened by this
possibility, right? Anyway, here are my bizarro twins of
Buffy speculation. Any reactions or opinions?
[> Time travel -- yez, 12:07:09 11/14/02
Thu
Warlock sounds very cool, and the "Slayer come back to slay
all" theory is also very cool. I'm not sure it fits with
"the earth has teeth" thing, though...
Re: "I know ME has never used a time-travel plot before...,"
on Angel last season, there was a dem on type who was a
timetraveler and who brought someone from the past to the
future. The demon himself, I believe, had also traveled back
and forth in time to cause various mischief.
So, not impossible.
yez
[> [> Re: Time travel -- Thomas the Skeptic,
12:29:33 11/14/02 Thu
Doh! I completely forgot about the time-traveling demon on
Angel! Too much sleep deprivation, I think. Thanks for
reminding me!
[> Another lunatic theory about the big bad... --
cjl, 12:34:57 11/14/02 Thu
1. As stated by the image of the Master in Lessons, the big
bad is something that existed "before the bang...before the
Word." The obvious implication is that the Big Bad is the
Almighty, the Creator (but that's absurd, so let's move on).
2. In Gnos ticism and the Zoroastrian religion, the source
of all evil is a false god, a demiurge who has taken the
original creation and re-shaped it in his own image. It is
the goal of all enlighted beings to penetrate the veil of
illusion created by Ialdaboth and perceive the true face of
creation.
3. The big bad is a transcendent force who is sick of the
balance between Good and Evil, and wants to go out with a
blast, taking everything and everyone with it.
4. At the start of every season, Joss Whedon sits in front
of a word processor, with the entirety of the Buffyverse in
his head before he even bangs on a key. Before the bang.
Before the word. He's spent the past six years balancing
good and evil on his brainchild, and now he's ready to end
it all. Joss doesn't know the source of creation (he doesn't
believe in God), but like any evil demiurge, he has shaped
its essence to his own will.
5. Joss is the Big Bad.
(Question: if this is true, what would Buffy say to him if
he appeared at the end? What would you say to your
creator?)
[> [> My troll logic bows to your lunacy! --
Thomas the Skeptic, 13:04:35 11/14/02 Thu
I love it! Joss as the Big Bad! As a matter of fact, I have
been toying with some variation of Gnosticism as yet another
possible explanation for what's happening this year ( the
great Immaterial God, Unmoved Mover, or whatever you prefer
calling it moving into the existing world to finally clean
up the mess the Demiurge has made of creation...) but I
think I like your idea better!
[> [> Wordplay? (sp. 7.7) -- tomfool,
13:06:43 11/14/02 Thu
Along these lines, something that jumped out at me from
CwDP.
NotCassie: 'Not It. ME.'
As in M(utant)E(nemy).
Wordplay?
[> [> [> Intended or not, still brilliant. Good
catch. -- yez, 13:17:58 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> Metacomix: Grant Morrison, Vonnegut and
those fabulous '60s -- cjl, 13:35:35 11/14/02 Thu
In proposing this bit of metafictional madness, I think back
to British author Grant Morrison's run on the comic book
Animal Man, specifically the issue (#15?) where Buddy is
meditating in the New Mexico desert (a real Carlos Castaneda-
type moment) and he has a vision of the true nature of
reality:
He sees the borders of the comic book panel. [I think I saw
the same concept in one of those '60s underground comix,
either the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers or R. Crumb's ZAP!
Comix. Anybody remember specifics?]
Then in issue #26, after crossing the Land of Obsolete DC
Comic Book Characters (funnier and weirder than you could
possibly imagine), Buddy meets up with Morrison himself, who
tries to explain why he made Buddy's life so miserable--
mainly, killing his wife and child. Morrison tries to tell
Buddy that he wanted the comic book to be "realistic," but
then realizes that cruelty and violence are too often the
language of "reality" when it could just as easily be mercy.
So Morrison uses his god-like powers to send Buddy back to
his family. It was all "just a dream."
Lame, yes. But "Morrison" doesn't care.
I often think Joss, as the Buffyverse's resident deity,
might also be sick of visiting death and violence on Buffy
and her crew. It's realistic, yes, but he might want to show
mercy upon his creations and set them free with his
blessings, the way Vonnegut did at the end of Breakfast of
Champions...
[> [> That would be amazing. -- yez,
13:24:37 11/14/02 Thu
I think that your case against Joss is airtight, and
regardless of who/what the BB is this season, it will
always, ultimately and forever, be Joss, the creator and the
destroyer. But while him appearing as himself as the Big Bad
would be groundbreaking TV (though seems to me I've heard of
films or books like this where the whole story is in the
mind of a certain person, but not sure if it's been
established as the author...), I'm not sure even Dawn, the
key, could repair a tear in the third wall like that. (Third
wall? Fourth wall? I've never gotten it straight how many
walls there are supposed to be.) I mean, could a show go on
after that? Assuming Whedon does want it to go on somehow,
which may not be a safe assumption. He's sounded very weary
in interviews of late -- much like IT.
yez
[> [> Crazy and beautiful (spoilers for 7.22
(perhaps)) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:46:01 11/14/02 Thu
This is a wonderful, wonderful theory.
It reminds me a little bit of the crazy and beautiful book
'Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry' by BS Johnson. Near the
end of a book which plays with the limitations and
conventions of novel-writing, the author talks to the
eponymous main character, to tell him that he's thinking of
killing him off with cancer. Christie agrees to it, saying
he never wanted his book to be a Victorian-length novel
which no-one will ever read anyway.
So to 7.22:
Apocalyptic battle:
Willow vs Marti Noxon
Xander vs David Fury
Anya vs Jane Espenson
Dawn vs Drew Goddard
Spike vs Doug Petrie
Faith vs Drew Greenberg
And all the authors beat their favourite characters- leaving
Buffy to stand alone against:
Joss Whedon
JW: So, Buff, I've said all I wanted to say about female
empowerment. Really. You know I think you've lived in this
crazy world long enough. And, after all when you take away
all your friends,
[writers leave with gagged other characters]
what have you got left?
B: Me.
And it's sword fight time. Except Joss writes Buffy's sword
to split in half.
JW: An odd dichotomy, y'know. Fictional yet rebelling
against your own creator.
B: Oh, so this is the Biggest Bad of them all, hey? What
comes after a God? You are my maker? Come on. I've heard
more likely stories from your one-time writer Tracey
Forbes.
JW: Hey, there was nothing wrong with Tracey Forbes!
B: Do you know what we used to say when we had a really bad
week. It must be a Noxon. Consistency of fortune in your
writing staff wasn't exactly the best now, was it?
JW: [a little cowed]. Yeah, but I bet you loved the
Espensons, no?
B: True. Anyway, you're distractin me. I'm trying to kill
you.
JW: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the end of the
series
And as Buffy leaps into a slaying manoeuvre, the camera
pulls out and out, (a little like the end shot in Men in
Black), until we can see all of Sunnydale. And then it
slowly contracts into a small dot in the centre of the
screen.
Grrrr. Aaaaggggh
TCH
[> [> [> My own metafictional finale (Spoilers
7.22!) -- cjl, 16:22:18 11/14/02 Thu
(Buffy leaps through the dimensional portal, looking behind
her one last time to see the agonized faces of Willow, Dawn,
Xander, Giles, and Spike. The portal closes. She looks
around. She seems to be in an office. Peering through the
darkness, she sees a man (his back to her) typing at his
computer. Buffy is confused.
BUFFY (to typist): Excuse me?
JOSS: Hold on a minute. Gotta catch up here.
(Buffy wanders over to the desk, and starts reading the
words on the screen. She reads: "Buffy wanders over to the
desk, and starts reading the words on the screen.")
JOSS: There we go. All done. Finally.
BUFFY: "All done?"
JOSS (swivels his chair to face her): The series. The pain.
It's over. (Laughs.) I don't have to do it anymore. Gotta
tell you, it's a relief. Although...
BUFFY: W-what are you talking about?
JOSS (takes her hand): It's all right, Buffy. You don't have
to worry. All the pain in your life--your Mom and Angel and
Spike and the Slaying, and worrying about your friends. It's
done.
BUFFY: Wait. How do you--
JOSS: When you were seven years old, you accidentally cut
yourself playing with your father's razor blade. You cried
and cried, and before your Mom got there, you wondered, what
kind of a God would make a world where there would be this
kind of pain?
BUFFY (withdraws her hand): How did you know that?
JOSS: And when you were fifteen, when you were first called,
you were in that cemetary in Los Angeles, squeezing that
pathetic-looking stake in your hand, and you had a horrible
feeling in the pit of your stomach that God was singling you
out for punishment...
BUFFY: Shut up.
JOSS: I wasn't punishing you.
(Buffy steps back, a lump of revulsion and utter horror
forming in her throat.)
BUFFY: No.
JOSS (shakes his head): You're amazing. You're so much more
than I imagined you'd be. (Laughs again.) Sarah would
absolutely freak if she knew you were here.
(BUFFY, terrified, looks around the office, her eyes
adjusting to the dark. She sees posters of herself with the
logo "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on top. She sees a photo on
Joss' desk. It's her, Xander, Willow, Giles, Anya, Dawn and
Spike. The signature is her handwriting, but the name signed
is "Sarah." She sees a paperback book on the desk, but
barely registers the title before she sees, in small print:
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer--created by Joss Whedon.")
BUFFY: This is impossible.
JOSS: No. This was inevitable. You've been fighting evil for
so long, you've suffered so much--I think I owed it to you.
To see who was responsible for it all. The Biggest Bad of
them all, you might say. "Big Bad." (Laughs.) Who came up
with that, anyway?
BUFFY: Are you--are you telling me you CREATED me? You're
telling me...you're GOD?!
JOSS: I don't believe in God. (Pause.) Funny, though. The
existentialists say that once we've eliminated the divine
from our lives, we assume--
BUFFY: What am I doing here? If you are...who you say you
are, w-why did you take me away from my friends? Why did you
take me away from my sister? M-my mother? WHY?
(Joss looks into Buffy's eyes, sees the tears and the pain,
and quickly looks away.)
JOSS: It's complicated.
BUFFY: That's my line.
JOSS: So it is. But it's still the truth.
BUFFY: Then explain it to me.
(JOSS leans forward in his chair, carefully considering his
words.)
JOSS: As much as I hate to say this to you, Buffy, you're
just a fictional character. A fictional character who's gone
so far beyond my original idea...sometimes it seems you're
not even mine anymore. But you are. And as much as I love
you, you've had to play your part in what I have to say to
the rest of the world. About all the crap we face while
we're growing up. How we deal with the death of parents or
loved ones. How we overcome the obstacles we create for
ourselves, how...
BUFFY: I think I get the idea.
JOSS (smiles): You want to kill me right now, don't you?
BUFFY: Very much.
JOSS: Well, don't. As I said, I owe you for everything I've
put you through for the last seven years. I wanted to do you
one last favor before I let you go.
BUFFY: A favor?
JOSS: You can pick your ending. You go through the
dimensional portal, and you disappear, and then...something
happens. I'm leaving it up to you.
BUFFY: You're kidding me. Now? After all the pain and
suffering and blood, you're letting me choose NOW?! What do
I want? I want my mother back, that's what I want! I want
you put me back in high school and take away that stupid
curse from Angel, that's what I want!
JOSS: I can't do that.
BUFFY: Why not?! You're g--oh, wait. You don't believe in
God.
JOSS: And if I did? Deus ex machina--God snaps his fingers
and all the problems go away. What does that tell the people
in this world about life? There's pain and horror at this
end of the telescope, too, Buffy. There are monsters that
scare the living hell out of us every day, monsters without
fangs or horns or claws. When you and Giles were waiting for
Billy Fordham to rise out of his grave, you told Giles--
BUFFY: Lie to me.
JOSS: You wouldn't let him. And I'm not going to lie,
either. I'm not going to snap my fingers and make your life
a paradise.
BUFFY (thinks hard): I can't go back to Sunnydale?
JOSS: No. The series is over.
BUFFY: It wasn't cancelled, was it?
JOSS: Nope. Could have gone on forever. But I think
everybody was getting a little winded after seven years.
BUFFY: Oh. That's cool. Always good to go out on top.
(Pause. Buffy smiles.) Wait. I think I've got it. (Leans
over and whispers in Joss' ear.)
JOSS: Really? OK, not exactly what I would have wanted,
but...(looks into Buffy's eyes) It's the least I can do.
JOYCE: Doctor, thank you. It's a miracle.
DOCTOR: Mrs. Summers, you don't have to thank me. Buffy did
all the work herself. She's really a remarkable young
woman.
HANK: We never gave up hope. (Nuzzles Buffy's chin.)
Never.
DOCTOR: Give me a call when she's settled. I don't think you
have anything to worry about, but we should have follow-up
sessions at least once every month.
JOYCE: We'll contact you next week.
(Joyce, Hank and Buffy walk out of the asylum and into the
parking lot. Buffy is holding her father's hand tightly as
they approach the family car.)
HANK: Well, sweetheart, you're going home. How do you
feel?
BUFFY: It feels wonderful, Daddy.
JOYCE (hesitantly): Do you miss Sunnydale at all?
BUFFY: A little... No. A lot. But it's just like the doctor
said--Sunnydale is a delusion. (Joyce and Hank get into the
car.) Not MY delusion...
(BUFFY climbs into the back seat, and the Summers family
drives onto the streets of Los Angeles.)
[> [> [> [> Wonderful and beautiful and no,
no, no... heartbreaking. -- yez, 06:32:47 11/15/02
Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wonderful and beautiful
and no, no, no... heartbreaking. -- SKPE, 07:16:38
11/15/02 Fri
Wasn’t that the way they ended 'moonlighting' with the sets
being torn down and the characters desperately suggesting
plot lines to the authors to keep the show going
[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't know,
but... -- yez, 07:54:25 11/15/02 Fri
I think the Cosby Show ended with Claire and Cliff dancing
off the set and into the sound stage and you could see the
studio audience.
And this kind of thing would definitely be fodder for a
Twilight Zone ep., particularly if the character were to
triumph and kill the creator, leaving the path open for the
franchise to continue.
Sheesh, wouldn't it be creepy if Buffy were to *win* that
fight? After all, she beats everyone -- why not Joss?
I saw an ep. of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys where the
writers, played by the same actors that play characters on
the show, were breaking a story or something, and somehow
the characters come through and... I don't know, they
demanded certain storylines or something, not sure.
And there was an ep. of Xena: Warrior Princess where one of
the creators appeared as himself, being pitched the idea for
the show which was supposed to have been based on ancient
scrolls found on a dig.
And weren't there some Warner Bros. cartoons where we see
the illustrator drawing the characters, and the characters
interacting with the illustrator?
Man... I watch altogether too much TV...
yez
[> [> Buffy meets Joss? -- HonorH, 00:13:26
11/15/02 Fri
Why do I get the feeling Joss would end up unconscious
rather quickly?
[> [> The characters -- Fred the obvious
pseudonym, 09:10:46 11/15/02 Fri
In a sense, it's happened already.
Like Superman, Sherlock Holmes, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and
others, the character(s) have escaped their creators.
We as fans will perpetuate the Buffyverse long after Joss
hangs it up. Perhaps without the brilliance, but with
durability.
[> [> [> Pirandello and characters living on
after the creator -- cjl, 09:45:12 11/15/02 Fri
In Luigi Pirandello's immortal play, "Six Characters in
Search of an Author," the title individuals "raid" the
rehearsal of a bad play (not coincidentally, another
Pirandello play!) and demand that the actors ditch what they
were doing and act out the characters' own, more compelling
story.
"Six Characters" asks many fascinating questions and makes a
number of interesting points, among them the durability of
certain archetypes in humanity's collective consciousness,
and how, sometimes, these archetypes seem more "real" than
our own daily lives. Buffy and her crew were deliberately
created by Joss to fit one of those archetypes, the myth of
the hero's journey (I will spare everyone the usual Campbell-
ian blather), which unquestionably resonates with everyone
on this board.
Given that, Buffy and the Scoobies may have escaped Joss and
ME, but they haven't escaped us and never will. We are
surely part of their creation, their continuing life, as
much as the writers and the production staff and they are
predestined to be molded according to our whims.
At the end of Breakfast of Champions, author Kurt Vonnegut
appears before Kilgore Trout and sets Trout and the rest of
the characters free. The act of liberation is a generous
one, but it's clear that Vonnegut is doing it for himself
more than his characters--allowing their stories to end, so
he can concentrate on new ones, in a new phase of his life.
Maybe we should stop trying to keep Buffy and the rest of
the gang alive at the end of the series (fanfic, etc.) and
simply draw inspiration from their story in our own
lives.
[> Kind of OT: Adam Warlock and Magus -- Mystery,
13:24:33 11/14/02 Thu
I think I might be mixing things up, but I thought that
Magus was created when Adam possessed the Infinity Gaunlet
and purged all the good and evil from his soul, making him a
truly just being, and making him better able to chose the
Guardians of the Infinity Gems.
Magus was supposed to be the evil part of Adam Warlock, and
The Goddess was good part. Both parts we insane because they
were unbalanced. Magus tried to use the infinity gaunlet to
make everyone evil in the "Infinity Wars" limited series and
in the "Infinity Crusade" Limited Series, the Goddess
decided that existance was too corrupted and tried to engulf
everybody in "Rapture" and in essense destroy the universe
using The Cosmic Egg (a fusion of all the Cosmic Cubes in
existance) (kind of reminiscent of Willow decided to take
away everyone's pain by killing them).
Or were there two different Magus-es? I'm thinking that
might be the case...I never knew much of Adam Warlock beyond
the "Infinity Crusade."
[> [> Re: Kind of OT: Adam Warlock and Magus --
Thomas the Skeptic, 14:04:23 11/14/02 Thu
Actually, the events you are describing happened much later
in Marvel History. The first encounters between Adam and the
Magus occured in the late 1970's in the ( now classic ) 2nd
run of Adam's comic called simply "Warlock". "The Infinity
Gauntlet" stories took place in the mid- to late eighties,
if I'm not mistaken ( honestly, even though Starlin was
involved with these I did'nt think they were as good as the
earlier books. Not the same sense of mystical and
metaphysical wonder, IMO ).
Bloody Foreshadowing (Spoilers for CwDP) -- LeeAnn,
13:08:39 11/14/02 Thu
I finally rewatched CwDP this morning and one thing I
noticed was Dawn, her mouth dripping with blood, and a
minute later, Spike, his mouth dripping with blood. Makes me
wonder if D'Yawn is about to get vamped and have her mouth
full of blood again.
It was a bloody episode. Dawn's blood in her mouth. Spike's
mouth full of the girl's blood. Jonathan as a bloody
sacrifice, his blood filling the pentagram. Blood spattered
on the walls of the Summer's home. The Vampire Psyc Major
trying to get Buffy's blood. Cassie/FE trying to get Willow
to open a vein and spill her own blood.
SPIKE: "Cause it's always got to be blood. Blood is life...
Why do you think we eat it? It's what keeps you going. Makes
you warm. Makes you hard. Makes you other than dead.
(quietly) Course it's her blood."
Blood signifies…life? Or just part of the Heart Symbolism
for the season?
The FE seems to have the typical BB's interest in blood.
[> Heart symbolism (sp 7.7) -- Tchaikovsky,
14:00:41 11/14/02 Thu
Yes, I'm with you on the link to the Season of the Heart. I
sometimes think I've jumped on Shadowkat's band-wagon
slightly too enthusiastically, however, and that I'm
starting to see the little schematic in everything.
So here's a question. In the bloodiest episode of the Season
to date, (even if STSP was pretty gory), why do we not see
our champion of heart, Xander, at all? Maybe the spilling of
blood, the imbalance in circulatory systems, the inability
to talk to anyone real throughout the episode shows a lack,
a failure of heart. And Xander's exclusion symbolises that.
Or maybe Nicholas Brendon was on holiday. Or maybe Xander is
dead from Spike in a cupboard. And we have Cassie, who had
aterminal failure of heart, as one of the spokesman
This episode has caused so many questions, and so few
answers. But deep down we love it.
TCH
[> [> Re: Heart symbolism (sp 7.7) -- imp
(newbie; de-lurking again; spec about 7.8?), 15:01:31
11/14/02 Thu
Since my first posting attempt went OK yesterday, I thought
I'd give it another shot. I consider myself unspoiled,
except for a quick glance at the trailer for next week's
episode.
This question is for you or anyone else reading: (hope my
tags work)
In general, does it appear that next week's episode picks
up right where CWDP leaves off? (A yes or no response is
sufficient for me.)
If it does, then we may yet see Xander (and Anya). However,
I have a feeling we will not. Again, being unspoiled, I am
probably wrong. But just wondering...
[> [> Re: Where the Heart Is? -- Philistine,
23:46:54 11/14/02 Thu
I haven't had time to go through all the posts in the
archive since Tuesday, so I don't know if anyone else has
posted along this line. I *have* noticed, though, a couple
of people questioning the conspicuous lack of Xander in the
episode. Good question. I've been wondering about the same
thing.
Then, suddenly, I had a thought. I thought back to some
interesting posts made here over the past week or two,
discussing how Xander has been central to the eventual
solution in several episodes this season. And then I thought
about 'Conversations With Dead People,' and how nothing was
solved in this episode - if anything, the end of the ep left
the Scoobs worse off than they were a week ago.
I don't know what if anything it might mean - it's very
late, I'm very tired, I've never been big on "meaning"
anyway, and it may be that I'm just thinking way too much.
But it seemed... funny.
[> [> [> More heart symbolism (I told you I'm
obsessed) -- Tchaikovsky, 02:46:09 11/15/02 Fri
So Xander is the Heart of the Gang, and the heart solves the
problems this season, until it fails at the end.
cf
Season Five: Giles, the Mind, is boss. He fails in the end
because the logical conclusion is to kill Dawn. Buffy saves
the day with spirit.
Season Six: Willow, the Spirit is boss. She fails in the end
because her spirits are not modified by emotions. Xander
saves the day with heart
Season Seven: Xander has solved many of the problems of the
Season to date. And it appears that when he is away, the
problems start happening, as you have mentioned. When the
heart is out of the picture, the problems are left without
the resolution brought by the integral part of the Gang for
this Season.
But...
There's to be a failure of heart, to be redeemed by Buffy,
hand, and so complete the circle. Watch this space.
TCH- who will keep arguing this point ad nauseam if given a
chance
[> Yessss....110v3w1110w -- LeeAnn, 19:07:46
11/14/02 Thu
And as 110v3w1110w pointed out above, the "Mother's milk is
red" written on the wall is blood is more foreshadowing of
Dawn getting vamped.
Or Joss is trying to fool us.
Yo! ATPOBTVS got praise on BuffyRadio! -- Harry
Parachute, 13:11:13 11/14/02 Thu
www.buffyradio.com
Listen to their latest episode. A little over halfway in,
all y'all get the mad stupid-fresh props like a blazing herd
of cattle.
Ph3or the Filossipi.
[> Transcript? -- Masq, 13:16:46 11/14/02
Thu
Is this "Buffy radio" the Succubus Club?
[> [> Uh...I...dunno what the SC is. *shrug* --
Harry Parachute, 13:19:26 11/14/02 Thu
But this Buffyradio is done by the guys at
slackstreet.com.
[> [> [> There's also a "radio buffy" ... --
ZachsMind, 14:17:52 11/14/02 Thu
I found a german website somewhere that one person in
BuffyRadio.com's discussion board was accusing the
Slackstreet gang of stealing from. That's not true. The
Radio Buffy gang speak in german. I doubt the slackstreet
gang can speak or understand german. So there's three
different things like this going on, including the Sucubbus
Club which is okay but that one girl's voice is way too
scratchy in an annoying (uh, but lovable!) way. She needs a
coughdrop.
As for a 'transcript', I'm listening to the BuffyRadio mp3
for this week right now and when it gets to that point I'll
try to post something about it in here.
[> [> Re: Transcript? -- ponygirl, 14:14:49
11/14/02 Thu
Ok, I was in the midst of something really BORING here at
work so I put on my headphones and had a listen. The radio
show appears to be a group of people discussing the latest
episodes. It was kind of fun, it reminded me of get-
togethers with my Buffy-watching pals, except for two
important points: a) I couldn't jump in and correct people;
and b)I wasn't drinking. The last was sorely missed. As I
said it's boring here at work.
Here's the bit on the site:
"I’ve got to give a plug to a site called All Things
Philosophical on BtVS and AtS...
It’s a website that actually explores all the moral and
ethical and psychological – it’s like somebody’s thesis, it
is really a brilliant site."
They then discuss the thread on Who Is Spike Now, and what
makes a person. Obviously the person speaking had read the
thread pretty extensively and the discussion went off from
there into multiple personalities and the like.
Anyone want to reveal themselves as one of these Buffyradio
people? It seems like a cool site.
[> [> [> Another reference -- Masq,
14:32:07 11/14/02 Thu
I'm listening to it now, too, and they talk about how ATPo
will have a "field day":
It goes something like, "They're [ATPo] going to have a
field day with that because she [Buffy] just now outed the
whole Dr. Sigmund vampire Freud."
I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean we are/I am going
to go to town on Holden's conclusions about Buffy or Buffy's
conclusions about herself? Or have something insightful to
say about psychoanalysis or therapy? Or Freud?
Gee, the pressure's on!
[> [> [> [> Wow ! Mise en abyme --
Etrangere, 14:45:08 11/14/02 Thu
We're listening to them listening to us... it's weird. We
don't know yet what we gonna sayd and they're already
predicting what it's gonna be ?
Now we gonna feel all self-counscious while writing
posts.
[> [> [> [> [> Comment se dit "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer" en Francais? -- Sophomorica, chewing on
her French dictionary, 15:03:49 11/14/02 Thu
Ok, I'm just curious. You have probably answered such
before. And what is "abyme"?
[> [> [> [> [> [> "Buffy contre les
Vampires" -- Ete, 15:09:18 11/14/02 Thu
which is an ever more kitch name than Buffy the Vampire
Slayer.
Slayer is translated by "Tueuse", which does not keep well
the nuance between murder and slaying, but what would you
have.
"mise en abyme" is an expression i didn't know how to
translate. For exemple a picture where we see a guy drawing
a picture where we see a guy drawing a picture where we
see... etc is a "mise en abyme".
Usually "abyme" means the "abyss" or the "pit".
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> oooh...Thank
You! -- Sophomorica, 15:15:27 11/14/02 Thu
French seems to be full of little sayings that don't
translate very well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> mise en
abyme -- Slain, 15:30:18 11/14/02 Thu
I think we'd say "Picture within a picture", but I'm sure
there's a better phrase.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about
"viscious circle"? -- pr10n, 17:20:31 11/14/02
Thu
[> [> [> [> Re: Another reference --
Slain, 15:02:41 11/14/02 Thu
Well, I for one am going to resist the urge to start a
thread called "Let's have a field day about Buffy's outing
the whole Sigmund vampire Freud".
Actually I'm not quite sure what they mean. My first thought
is that parallels between vampirism and Freud's theories
about the Id and all that (not a big Freud fan, here), or
perhaps we'll have a field day because the show has
acknowledged the value of psychoanalysis.
[> [> [> [> [> Maybe it's about Buffy's
offing the one person she told everything about herself
-- Etrangere, 15:05:55 11/14/02 Thu
It's very "I could tell you my secret but then you would
have to die" and correlates with the vampires asking her if
she's angry because he tried to kill her or because she
opened up to him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe it's about
Buffy's offing the one person she told everything about
herself -- Sang, 15:28:00 11/14/02 Thu
Well, she finally confessed about her problem with her
friends and Spike. Then she had to kill him. Does it nullify
the confession itself?
[> [> [> [> [> Well, psychoanalysis makes
great drama -- DickBD, 15:11:31 11/14/02 Thu
As with SPELLBOUND (a movie of about 52 years ago), but it
is a flawed science. In fact, it is not even science because
it is not falsifiable. But the episode was cute, with Buffy
lying on the "couch" and getting psychotherapy from a newly-
created vampire. Technically speaking, it wasn't really
psychoanalysis since Buffy wasn't just "free associating"
without comment from the analyst. Great episode though, with
lots of questions to answer.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly -- Masq,
15:28:42 11/14/02 Thu
That's the comment I was going to make, that it was pretty
much your standard therapy session, not of the
psychoanalytic variety at all. There's no deep Freudian
subtext here, except perhaps the interesting angle that
Buffy can be more open with her feelings with the unsouled
undead than with her friends (both Spike and Holden), and
that she kills her therapist at the end of the session.
With a stake.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Success! --
DickBD, 16:11:57 11/14/02 Thu
I feel like a student with a gold star on my forehead if I
get a response from you, Masq! (And that is from a retired
biology teacher and former principal.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmm....would
that be considered a breakthrough?....;) -- Rufus,
16:19:16 11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> Partial Transcipt of BuffyRadio INSIDE
here. -- ZachsMind, 15:25:09 11/14/02 Thu
I'm not one of the BuffyRadio people, but when I can I try
to be online when they do their show and kibitz at them
through AOL Instant Messenger (I use www.trillian.cc which I
highly recommend). I also post to their message board
occasionally and have a generally good time with them. A
real nice bunch of people. And I apologize ahead of time. In
the context of BuffyRadio, I still haven't been able to keep
track of whose name goes with which voice? I'm terrible with
names & voices much less faces, so what follows is just
"MALE VOICE 1" or whatever.
Anyway, here's what I heard from the CWDP episode of their
mp3 talk radio thingy.
MALE VOICE 1: "Okay when we come back there were two
other storylines here. Buffy getting psychoanalyzed (laughs)
by a former y'know classmate which I don't think was
anything more than just to have Buffy open up and the
psychology angle. I tell ya All things Philosophical About
Buffy website--"
FEMALE VOICE: "To reveal exposition as my television
criticism teacher would say--"
MALE VOICE 1: "Yes. They're gonna have a field day with that
because she just now outted the whole y'know Doctor Sigmund
Vampire Freud! (female voice laughs) And of course we got
the whole Spike action going on, which wasn't a lot but a
very important part of the story..."
[They go for a break and come back.. I'm skipping a bit
including a cool special moment with Mugsy and bananas.]
MALE VOICE 1: "I did my homework! Because it's my
job."
FEMALE VOICE: "Good for you!"
MALE VOICE 1: "I gotta give a plug to a site called All
Things Philosophical About Buffy The Vampire Slayer and
Angel the Series and I think the website is, y'know I think
you can search for it and if you're a Buffy fan you probably
have been to this site but it's a website that actually
explores all the moral and ethical and psychal-- I just--
all the -- I mean it's like somebody's thesis! It is really
a brilliant site! And in this site I --this Spike thing
cuz I already knew what was gonna happen, really intrigued
me a lot here. And the question of who is Spike now? And
there's this HUGE discussion about are- what makes a person?
Is it your memories? Is it your soul? What is it that y'know
makes you who you are? If you have none of your memories and
you have the memories of someone else, does that make you
the same person that you were? I would agree with the fact
that no it doesn't. Because you are who you're been built up
over y'know your entire life. So he is a few people. Uh,
y'know he is William the Bloody and they also do great
comparisons between him and Angel because a lot of this
stuff has already been addressed before y'know you had
Angel. You had well you had Liam. Then you had Angel. Then
you had Angeles and now you've got this new kind of soul no
soul back to soul again. He-- I-I'm very surprised that you
said the he could only be affected by the chip depending on
the type of person he is. He's still a demon. He still has a
need for blood.
MALE VOICE 2: Well I'm talking about the personality not
necessarily the person he is. I'm talking about which era of
personality he is. William the Bloody--
MALE VOICE 1: Well that would also be the person though if
you think about it and the chip might be affected by that.
MALE VOICE 3: And keep in mind as far as I can tell the chip
is looking for certain types of agressive behavior and it
activates based on those behaviors.
MALE VOICE 2: Well yeah. But!
MALE VOICE 1: Could those come..
Okay I'm stopping there cuz obviously they're done talking
about atpabtvs.com.
[> [> [> [> Oh, and the BuffyRadio Scorecard
is in HERE.. -- ZachsMind, 15:40:39 11/14/02 Thu
MALE VOICE 1 is Eric
MALE VOICE 2 is Josh
MALE VOICE 3 is Mike
FEMALE VOICE is Jen
How helpful is that? Actually I might have Josh & Mike
backwards. And of course Mugsy was played by himself.
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