November 2002 posts

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Chat party for anom's birthday!! Come all!! -- LittleBit, 21:04:48 11/13/02 Wed

[> I'm experiencing technical difficulties--but Happy Birthday, anom!! -- dubdub ;o), 21:41:51 11/13/02 Wed

[> [> sorry to hear it (the 1st part)...but thanks for coming! -- anom, 21:54:26 11/13/02 Wed

[> Missed the party. Hope BD was perfect! -- vickie, 23:01:11 11/13/02 Wed

[> An *eloquent* Birthday greeting ;) -- Kethry, 23:26:00 11/13/02 Wed

hippo birdie two ewe
hippo birdie two ewe
hippo birdie deer anom
hippo birdie two ewe

okay... maybe you guys were right and delurking wouldn't be that scary.


[> [> yay! welcome to the board, kethry! -- anom, 00:18:59 11/14/02 Thu

I'm honored to have inspired (?) your 1st post here. And Boynton is always appreciated.

[> [> Yay Keth! -- LittleBit, 10:22:38 11/14/02 Thu

As your namesake found out, that which we fear most turns out to be not fearful at all.

The next step is "Great post! Thanks!" which can be inserted, well, practically anywhere. ;-)

[> belated happy birthday, anom -- marie, 01:08:33 11/14/02 Thu

hope it was a brilliant one...


[> I missed out.. but Happy Day anyway! -- neaux, 04:17:28 11/14/02 Thu

[> Re: -- aliera, 05:04:54 11/14/02 Thu

A very belated happy birthday anom.

May next year and the coming years bring you the joys, friends and journeys you love best.

[> Jeez, I miss all the good chats! Happy birthday, anom. -- LadyStarlight, 06:06:49 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy birthday, anom! -- Sophie, 06:23:16 11/14/02 Thu

[> belated happy happy! -- ponygirl, 06:30:55 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> From me, too. @>) -- CW who always likes your cyclops, 07:20:58 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy Birthday anom - Go Scorpions! -- fresne, 07:07:00 11/14/02 Thu

[> Sorry I missed it - happy birthday anom -- Caroline, 07:18:16 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy birthday, belatedly! -- Arethusa, 08:30:41 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy Birthday, Anom! (Sorry, chatty rooms not my thing...) -- cjl, 08:54:44 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy birthday anom ! -- Ete, 08:54:59 11/14/02 Thu

[> Happy B-day, anom! So sorry I couldn't make it to the chat! -- Rob, 10:15:32 11/14/02 Thu

Attn: AtS fans! Question from a Newbie! -- Rob, 23:20:37 11/13/02 Wed

Hey, guys! As most of you know, I'm currently watching all of the old episodes of "Angel," in order, and actually just finished "Happy Anniversary."

I have a question about Wolfram and Hart and their overall plan for Angel. I am having a little trouble figuring out exactly what it is. Did they have a set plan for Darla the moment they brought her back? I know the syphillis thing was always there as a contingency, but, as was implied, was the plan always to turn Angel dark but not Angelus? Or did they just modify their plan when they realized, after "Dear Boy" that Angel wouldn't have a moment of happiness with Darla?

Was the whole course of action from the original Darla- planting-herself-in-Angel's-dreams to Darla-being-turned-by- Dru planned from the start? Or did they make it up as they went along? In other words, how "all-knowing" are Wolfram and Hart in this? Did they foresee every single move and how each emotional manipulation would play out? Or did they just have a lot of backup plans?

And what made them decide to use Drusilla at that point? I kind of got the idea that that was Lindsey who made it happen then, since with his crush on Darla, he wanted to make sure she would be "saved," when Angel refused to. Was it Lindsey? Or was he acting under orders? Or did W&H execs play him again as usual, and when he did it, it was playing into their hands?

I know this is a whole bunch of questions. Sorry, but my brain is racing!

Please, no spoilers for episodes after "Happy Anniversary," if you can help it! If necessary, a slightly spoilery but vague sum-up is okay. Thanks a bunch!


[> Re: Attn: AtS fans! Question from a Newbie! -- Dan The Man, 01:23:56 11/14/02 Thu

The question, you are asking is basically:

How much did Wolfram and Hart plan and how much did they just decide to have happen?

That is really hard question to answer, especially since we are not quite sure how far reaching Wolfram and Hart are. The senior partners are repeatedly mentioned and seem to be some sort of extremely evil beings but we are not sure what they are or where they are at exactly.

Remember these lines from episode 2.7 Darla:

Holland: "Lindsey..."

Lindsey: "You played me. You played her."

Holland: "We had to make you believe it Lindsey."

Lindsey: "Why?"

Holland: "Because she has to believe it, because Angel has to. - The Crisis needed to be real."

Lindsey: "You think now that you've driven her back to him she's gonna give him that perfect moment of happiness? He's gonna come on our side? Won't happen. He's noble. He'll never take advantage of her - not in this state, not now."

Holland: "Lindsey, you don't understand our friend at all. We know there is no prospect for physical intimacy here. - So you needn't torture yourself."

Lindsey steps closer: "Then what do you expect him to do?"

Holland: "What he will do. What he must do. Save her soul."

From this dialogue and several others, it is safe to assume that Lindsay definitely is less aware of what is happening at Wolfram and Hart than Holland was. Holland doesn’t seem to know it all either, because he seems to be genuinely afraid and surprised when he and the other lawyers are stuck with Darla and Dru. Also in Happy Anniversary, Lorne tells Angel that the lawyers had it coming, the only question was whether Angel would be involved or not. So if Holland was all knowing, he should have seen it coming. The senior partners on the other hand could have seen it coming and been fine with Holland being killed by Darla and Dru.

Remember that the only thing the senior partners seem to be interested in is that Angel will be a major player in the apocalypse and they want to make sure that he is on their side. So that makes lawyers like Lindsay, Holland, Lilah, etc. completely expendable.

We, the audience, find out some interesting and cryptic things about Wolfram and Hart as the season continues and maybe some of those will help you with answer that question.

IMHO, it looks like they knew quite a bit about their plan but exactly how much they knew is still open for debate. Also, remember that both Angel and Buffy continuously confront all knowing and prophecy spouting foes. These enemies usually seem fairly threatening and talk all high and mighty about what is to come and how they can’t be stopped and yet they are stopped, despite all the knowledge and the prophecies that they know of. Almost all of the season arc villains in Buffy at least attempt to generate this type of aura and succeed in playing our hero for at least a short period of time. One example of this is in Prophecy Girl the season one finale which contained these three passages:

Giles: Listen. Some prophecies are, are a bit dodgy. They're, they're
mutable. Buffy herself has, has thwarted them time and time again, but
this is the Codex. There is nothing in it that does not come to pass.

Angel: Then you're reading it wrong.

Giles: I wish to God I were! But it's very plain! Tomorrow night Buffy
will face the Master, and she will die.

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------

Master: You tried. It was noble of you. You heard the prophecy that I was about to break free and you came to stop me. But prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything. (whispers) You're the one that sets me free! (gloats) If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. (whispers) Think about that!

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

Master: Yes. Come forth, my child. Come into my world.

Buffy: I don't think it's yours just yet.

The Master turns his head and stares at her in surprise.

Master: You're dead!

Buffy: I may be dead, but I'm still pretty. Which is more than I can
say for you.

Master: You were destined to die! It was written!

Buffy: What can I say? I flunked the written.

Also remember the final moments of To Shanshu In L.A. (1.22) where the entire meaning of he passage about the Vampire with a Soul is completely changed with the translation of a single word.

I hope my rambling works as something resembling an answer.

Dan The Man

[> W&H consider Angel a Free Agent and want to sign him up for their side. -- Rufus, 01:35:17 11/14/02 Thu

In the end times it appears Angel has a pivotal role to play....only one knows which side he will play one.

First Lindsay and Lilah, now mainly Lilah seems to be handling the hopeful contract signing they may get Angel to do if they could only turn him dark.

The Senior Partners have made one thing clear......all the little lawyers they employ are expendable......Angel isn't.

[> [> Another Angel question, but spoilers to present -- Rob, don't read! -- yez, 06:55:46 11/14/02 Thu

I've only been watching Angel for a couple of seaons, so I've been having to piece together backstories, but might having another vampire with a soul (Spike) affect the prophecies involving Angel? Do they make general reference to a vampire with a soul, or do they identify Angel by name? Thanks.


[> [> [> Re: Another Angel question, but spoilers to present -- Rob, don't read! -- CW, 07:17:45 11/14/02 Thu

Always it's "the vampire with a soul." As long as Angel and Buffy are on seperate networks in pratical terms their universes are going to be separate. So, it's Angel in the prophecies. In literary terms, "the warrior for good" referred to as "the vampire with a soul" in the prophecies is Angel. Spike is at best ambiguous now, neither exactly good nor exactly evil. Although last night's Buffy may have changed that.

[> [> [> [> Thanks, though I'm opposed to ME having 2 separate universes now. -- yez, 08:01:30 11/14/02 Thu

I just can't get over the fact that it's been established that these characters exist in the same universe from the beginning, Angel being a spinoff and all, plus that's been reinforced with actual crossovers of characters as well as just passing references to the other show's characters. So it just bugs me from a continuity standpoint. I have to hold out hope for some kind of integration at some point, perhaps stupidly.

OK, venting over. Thanks again.


[> Where do you get old episodes of AtS? -- luna, 07:17:00 11/14/02 Thu

Help! I can catch up with BtVS on FX, but where do we get old AtS?

[> [> It isn't airing anywhere yet... -- Rob, 10:10:38 11/14/02 Thu

I got my old episodes from Masq, who was kind enough to make tapes for me. Otherwise, the first season of "Angel" is coming out on DVD on February 11th, with each other season to presumably follow each six months or so.


[> A brief history of W&H and Angel -- Masq, 07:26:56 11/14/02 Thu

When Angel first came to LA and made himself known to Wolfram and Hart, they pretty much just wanted the champion of good dead. That's why they sent Faith after him, to kill him. Then after a couple of failed assassination attempts, they just wanted him out of their hair. They tried to get Kate to arrest him (this is at the end of the 2-ep Faith arc).

Sometime between "Sanctuary" and "Blind Date", however, Wolfram and Hart found a prophecy. Now this is where it gets a tad bit confusing. The prophecy Angel steals from the Wolfram and Hart vault is the prophecies of Aberjeran, i.e., the "Shanshu" prophecy which says that the vampire with a soul will fight many fierce battles and earn his humanity.

Is this the same prophecy that says, "The vampire with a soul will be a major player in the apocolypse"?? They could be the same thing, they sound similar. However, Wolfram and Hart see this "second" prophecy as ambiguous--they cannot interpret whether it means that Angel will fight on the side of good or evil. The Shanshu prophecy seems to indicate he will definitely be fighting on the side of good.

Regardless of what all the prophecies say, Wolfram and Hart believe Angel could go either way in the end, so it is their official policy to get him on their side. This was the whole point of bringing back Darla. She is the mother of Angel's bad side, the one who took all his human weaknesses and insecurities and created a monster out of them. They hope to use her to make Angel dark.

Now does that mean "Angelus" or just "dark souled Angel"? Again, things get murky. I personally believe Wolfram and Hart knew all along that they wanted dark souled Angel, because that is what the prophecies talk about--the vampire with a soul will be the player in the apocolypse. I think it is Darla in "Dear Boy" who believes they want Angelus, because when she thinks of evil Angel, naturally, she thinks of Angelus. Angelus is what she wants.

What I think Holland and W&H wanted from Darla is something different. They wanted her to torment Angel, to bring out his lusts, his resentments, his darker urges, all the nasty things that people with souls harbor inside of him. They want to get him in touch with his darkness so he'll head down that slippery slope the way souled people like Faith, Warren, the Mayor, etc did.

They created a human Darla that would eventually seduce Angel into turning her back into a vampire. If they could get him tormented and crazy enough to cross that line and do an act he wouldn't normally do, he would start to question his own morality, the way Warren did after killing Katrina, he might justify his actions by deciding he was irredeemable, and start down that slippery slope.

I think Holland also hoped Angel would kill Lindsey and Lilah, because that act would have the same effect of getting him to question his moral center. Of course, he would have done it because they pushed him over the edge with their tormenting.

So when Angel locks the W&H team up with the vampires, I think the Senior Partners didn't care. They have a larger agenda than a mere 13 lawyers. They believe they'd succeeded in giving Angel that act that will throw him into moral chaos. And indeed, Angel kicked his friends out of the hotel and started training to kill, to go on the offensive using methods not that much different from his enemies.

So, bottom line, they want a dark souled Angel who will fight on their side when the time comes.

It's a tricky business that they can't plan to the letter, because Angel is the wild card, they can't anticipate his actions, only manipulate them.

[> [> I appreciate that summary, too, thanks. - - yez, 08:07:37 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> Thanks, guys, all your responses are very helpful! And thanks for the spolier warning, yez! -- Rob, 08:47:46 11/14/02 Thu

Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and Speculation (kinda long) -- Deb, 07:18:46 11/14/02 Thu

Halo! I've been gone for awhile and I haven't had time to read all the wonderfully interesting posts on "Talking With The Dead," but I need to post and run.

Spike -- I see stimulus-response in that when the blond woman came over to the bar, the first thing she did was place the box of ciggs. beside Spike's drink, the same ciggs that Spike used to smoke. I haven't seen Spike/William/??? smoke once this season. If I hade been in that basement, fighting off other peoples thoughts and words, I'd be chain smoking (if I smoked.)-- The only other time Spike "smoked" was when leaning on the cross, and William was asking Buffy if they could "just rest." His eyes were closed as if he were very sleepy. -- Also, a screen was used so that the scene would be hazy. This creates the feeling of "not quite right" or "not quite real."

Spike/William looks over at the ciggs and then he becomes more animated (just "more"; not a lot) when the woman asks if the seat is taken. The mo scene pans Spike so that this multi-colored (lamp?) out-of-focus glides over his face. The music is running scales in a minor key that was used by Mozart, and others since, to build tension and announce the coming of something terrifying. (From Don Giovanni. This scene ends with the Don being dragged by demons into a firey hell. Interestingly enough, the two characters in this scene who represent the Don's shadow and trickster; or superego and ego -- Freud; and conscious and supra conscious -- Jung, flee and hide when the "raised from the dead" "totally fear instilling" "totally fascinating so that I'm slack-jawed, breathless, and my heart is racing kind of terrifying" statue comes for the Don. The Don and the "really scary commadore" attempt to bring the trickster, ego, conscious back into the scene, but it keeps hiding under a table and pleading with God for mercy until it finally screams in terror to echo the Don's scream as he's dragged into hell. - - God, I love that scene.)

This is kinda what happened with Spike. Stimulus of the ciggs. causes William to flee, Spike to attempt unsuccessfully to hide, and the Big Bad to set up the vamping. William is totally unaware of what happened because he fled. With no dialogue, we hear sound effects when the woman is vamped (she is obviously trying to scream.) Percussion that begins loud and slowly grows fainter -- like a scream. (Mozart used percussion to continue echoing the scream also, and to simulate, for a moment, rapid beating of the heart that ends with a crash) The lack of dialogue foreshadows the scream.(i.e. the painting "The Scream.", "in space, no one can hear you when you scream:" a scream gets "caught" in the throat,

Buffy in Black -- (harsh) Spike. This basement is killing you. This is the hellmouth. There is something bad down here, possibly everything bad.

Spike in Black -- (laughs) Can't hear you. Can't hear you.

Buffy in Black -- You have a soul? Fine. Show me.

Spike -- Scream montresor all you like, pet.

And just a quicky comment on what Spike *is* and *is doing* in his own words:

Manifest spirits controlled by a talisman, raised to seek vengeance. A 4-year-old could figure it.

Talisman -- chip which Spike has had since season 4. "figure it" = make it. Spike made the talisman.

The scene was also "staged." We see the main event on stage in front of white curtains that cover windows, and it is brilliantly lite. If you were "inside" looking out, you would just see Spike's and the woman's shadows from outdoor lighting.

It is a ritual, particuairily in the deep south of the U.S. in "voodoo" societies that when a person dies, you cover all the mirrors and windows, or any reflective surface so the soul will not be stolen or captured.

One more odd observation: I have a habit of making "strange" associations. I just get these visual "bleeps" when I see things sometimes. When Spike placed his glass down on the bar, the woman then placed her pack of ciggs down in front of his glass. From the camera angle, and the manner is which the items were placed, I saw a chess game, which reminded me that Death will play chess with a person and if that person wins, which only happened in one movie that I remember, the person is spared. From that moment it was a game of sorts. First of all, what woman, with a sane mind, would go walking outside at night with a guy whom she just met in a bar -- and a "upset" looking man at that? She was check- mated with Death the moment she left the bar with Spike.

Dawn -- nice house redecorating. Not being a Dawn fan, I must admit I don't pay much attention to her, but when she had a mouthful of blood, well that screamed foreshadowing. And her anchovy pizza diddle reminded me of Dru telling William he had burning little fishes swimming around his head.

Willow -- Scary. It trying to get her to commit suicide to be with Tara. This struck me because Cassie said it's easy - - just like going to sleep.

Buffy -- First time a therapist has paid for the session. I don't know, but I really didn't hear anything new here except that she called Spike her boyfriend?????!!! Tell me I'm wrong. All that defaming and humiliation and dumping and she now thinks he was her boyfriend? She thinks Spike does "those" weird things to her??

Please, someone answer this question. I've read where some of you think Spike/William didn't want to return to Sunnydale but was forced. Why?

[> It's Conversations not Talking -- Deb's Shadow, 07:24:44 11/14/02 Thu

Alas, poor Johnny. I was warming up to him.

[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and Speculation (kinda long) -- CW, 07:36:19 11/14/02 Thu

I forget who it was, but someone already posted that the girl with Spike may not have been human. Your post makes me like that theory. Everything you said points to the whole business being no accident. If the woman is just another manifestation of BIG EVIL then Spike's chip makes no difference. It's all about temptation. The same with Buffy's cordial vampire. What if it's not real? What if it's the BIG EVIL just planting severe doubt in Buffy's head about Spike? Most posters have already expressed doubt about ghostly Joyce. And Cassie was an outright fraud.

[> Keeping this thread safe from the voynok demon -- Masq, 15:09:13 11/14/02 Thu

[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and Speculation (kinda long) -- Wisewoman, 15:21:05 11/14/02 Thu

And just a quicky comment on what Spike *is* and *is doing* in his own words:

Manifest spirits controlled by a talisman, raised to seek vengeance. A 4-year-old could figure it.

Talisman -- chip which Spike has had since season 4. "figure it" = make it. Spike made the talisman.

That's a pretty big leap. Why would Spike make the talisman? Why would he raise manifest spirits to seek vengeance on Buffy?

"Figure it" does not equal "make it," it equals "figure it out."

And why would he view his own chip as a talisman?

Some good points in your post, but hard to agree with these ones.

[> [> Spike isn't "doing it" other than the fact that -- Deb, 15:51:47 11/14/02 Thu

the entity who is is using his body. And "figure" in this case can be defined as creating or being used as a symbol. Webster's: "The outline or form of a thing, esp. a human body." "An impression or appearance made." "To make a likeness of" etc. A figure is also a person who makes the plans for some event. A figure in crime is the "brain" behind the operation.


[> [> [> Talisman could be Spike too. -- Deb, 16:59:42 11/14/02 Thu

I've also been doing some dialogue analysis. Reading the dialogue between two characters backwards can be very telling. Example of what Spike is now:

Buffy in Black: Get up and get out of this basement.

Spike: Scream montresor all you like, pet.

Buffy: Spike. This basement is killing you. This is the hellmouth. There is something bad down here, possibly everything bad. . . We'll get through this.

Spike: Never. . .

Buffy: Spike, it's me. It's you and it's me and we'll get through this.

Spike: I could never ask.

Buffy: It's different. You're different.

Spike: I could never ask. Not after. . .

Buffy: I can help you.

Spike: I'm in trouble Buffy.

Buffy: (gently) I don't trust what I see anymore. I don't know how to explain it, exactly. It's like I've been seeing things. Dru used to see things, you know? She'd always be staring up at the sky watching cherubs burn or the heavens bleed or some nonsense. I used to stare at her and think she'd gone completely sack of hammers. But she'd see the sky when we were inside and it'd make her so happy. She'd see showers. She'd see stars. Now I see her.

This is the dialogue backwards. OR when taken out of context

Spike: "Make use of me if you want. And there's nothing here. Just a bit of slime. Mounds of displaced dirt and such. Whatever our beastie is, he's gone."

This backwards reading is kinda funny:

Buffy: "You got you soul back. How?"

Spike: Bit worse for lack of use.

Buffy: Your soul?

Spike: The spark. The missing . . . the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want . . . (starts to cry) God, I can't. . .Not with you looking. (drags himself into shadows. . . I dreamed of killing you. I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your . . .ending? . . . They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn."


Buffy: This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what happened.

Spike: First time for everything.

Buffy: You thought you would just come back here and . . . be with me?

Spike: Well, yes. Where've you been all night?

Buffy: Spike, have you completely lost your mind?

Spike: Right, Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we a soddin engine?

Buffy: Stop it!

Spike: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you?

A different way of looking at things.

[> [> [> [> Re: Talisman could be Spike too. -- shadowkat, 18:45:48 11/14/02 Thu

"A different way of looking at things."

But is it the true way? The right way? the wrong way?
another way? as David Fury once said - the fans are quite capable of torturing themselves without our help. And coming to all sorts of weird conclusions. LOL! Perhaps he's right??

The story works like an Agathe Christie mystery or one of those suspense thrillers where clues are dropped but make no sense until you see the whole thing.

I agree with two points you make - the chip and the BB controlling Spike.

Did Spike create the tailsman for the BB?

Well...there's a piece of dialogue you forgot.

"Those spirits they made me do things. Much as I hate to admit it. I was weak. " - not exact, no access psych transcripts at moment. Was he lying? Or did they make him create a tailsman to set them free?

What hits me about Spike is not the dialogue so much as some of the actions.

He holds his head in abject pain several times when it makes 0 sense. Most specifically in Beneath You.
Also - the dialogue?

"Buffy: (gently) I don't trust what I see anymore. I don't know how to explain it, exactly. It's like I've been seeing things. Dru used to see things, you know? She'd always be staring up at the sky watching cherubs burn or the heavens bleed or some nonsense. I used to stare at her and think she'd gone completely sack of hammers. But she'd see the sky when we were inside and it'd make her so happy. She'd see showers. She'd see stars. Now I see her."

this should be Spike not Buffy, but I think this was just a typo. And it's quite telling. Should we, should the characters trust what they see?

Remember what Giles tells Willow? Trust your instincts. Trust your heart?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Talisman could be Spike too. -- Deb, 05:53:20 11/15/02 Fri

Yeah. Typo. Very tired these days.

I think he is telling us not to believe what we see while at the same time saying William is "not available" to hear. In the dialogue, he mentions something like putting his board in the water and all the chalk ran. This reminds me of the theory that says we are all born with "blank slates" that we fill as we experience life. I think he might be saying his slate got cleaned in some manner. Then: It got canned. Sealed away for preservation? I don't know. It's just speculation like everyone else speculates. It's just that I've taught film appreciation for two years, and I can't help but to take everything in account as a whole, and as separate texts. (i.e. sound, lighting, etc.) The absence of one of these elements, that are usually present, (signifier) points to its opposite (signified).

Some might view my methods as self torturing, but they are legitimate methods of criticism and finding the sub-texts for clues that foreshadow and provide information. It is much like solving a mystery in that it provides opportunity to teach students critical thinking methods. The problem? Most adults were never taught to think critically. The goal is not to figure out what the author had in mind when a text was written, but to look for all possible interpretations -- to critically analyze. And no one will ever be able to see "all" possible interpretations, because our reality is based upon our understanding of language, the context of the author, the context of the reader, and shared mediated culture represented by ambiguous symbols.

What is the pay-off is this exercise? Beside better interpersonal relationships and better organizational communication, it provides practice in dealing with "change" and seeing other world views of reality. It also helps in understanding why life is the way it is.

For example: Before 911 were we actually any more safer than we are today? No. The level of danger was the same, if not higher because of a lack of enough "venting." So why have all our lives changed if the danger level has not changed? Because something terrible happened, and we now realize our collective "world view" was not expansive enough and we are reinventing our reality, which now includes the possibility of dealing with terrorism at any point in time and not being capable of predicting it to the degree that it can be eliminated.

[> [> [> Re: Spike isn't "doing it" other than the fact that -- auroramama, 18:34:12 11/14/02 Thu

As in =Figures of Earth=? That's definitely Spike, and always has been: "It is the figure of a man, which I make and remake but cannot quite get to my liking." (Forgive my misquoting.) (And note that the geas to "make a fine figure in the world" came from Dom Manuel's mother. Spike's instructions about the kind of figure he ought to make seem to come from both his mothers -- William from his birth mother, Spike from his sire.) But I don't necessarily agree that he made the talisman. He has access to Spike's memories, and that's a hundred years of interacting with demons and other evil forces; he may simply remember the facts he recites. I think the reference to a four-year-old is significant, though.


[> [> [> [> Speculation on my part, but I think it's important too. -- Deb, 05:59:05 11/15/02 Fri

[> Re: Late thoughts on 7.7. Spoilers 6&7 and Speculation (kinda long) -- Rufus, 17:02:16 11/14/02 Thu

Spike/William looks over at the ciggs and then he becomes more animated (just "more"; not a lot) when the woman asks if the seat is taken. The mo scene pans Spike so that this multi-colored (lamp?) out-of-focus glides over his face. The music is running scales in a minor key that was used by Mozart, and others since, to build tension and announce the coming of something terrifying. (From Don Giovanni. This scene ends with the Don being dragged by demons into a firey hell. Interestingly enough, the two characters in this scene who represent the Don's shadow and trickster; or superego and ego -- Freud; and conscious and supra conscious -- Jung, flee and hide when the "raised from the dead" "totally fear instilling" "totally fascinating so that I'm slack-jawed, breathless, and my heart is racing kind of terrifying" statue comes for the Don. The Don and the "really scary commadore" attempt to bring the trickster, ego, conscious back into the scene, but it keeps hiding under a table and pleading with God for mercy until it finally screams in terror to echo the Don's scream as he's dragged into hell. - - God, I love that scene.)

All this talk about hell.....hmmmmm I wonder if hell is something you earn or if it is a state of mind that is chosen? How much does Williams state of mind have to do with the killing we saw in CWDP? And, if the insanity is William, is the cure also contained withing what Spike once was?

[> [> Interesting questions -- Deb, 06:35:02 11/15/02 Fri

My personal opinion is that we earn hell by creating it. If we didn't create it we wouldn't earn it. ;)

I think William needs Spike as much as Spike needs William, so it is to Spike's best interest to try to remain present, because of the stimuls-response William can't. This reminds me of something:

When Willow, Buffy and Xander "visited" Spike in the basement, Spike told Buffy something to the effect of - You are glowing. What word means glowing? Gotta rhyme. -- He also told Buffy she was glowing at Anya and Xander's anti- marriage. In the first instance, Willow had unintentionally made it so she could not see Buffy and vice versa. The spell was on Buffy, so glowing would be how Spike saw Buffy -- not totally material, but a shining ghost-like Buffy or an aura. He was lucid enough to figure out what was going on, but the context, the situation, was bonkers.

In William's first encounter with Dru, she tells him that his *friends" couldn't see his strength, and neither could he. She then pointed to his heart and head and said something like: these are your strengths (and burning fish swimming around his head). This next part is a little more difficult to paraphrase: She then said something like he was a person who saw other worlds and places no one else did. and he agreed. Anyway, before this, when he was writing his bad poem, he was looking for a word that rhymed with gleaming, which means the same thing as glowing, which can be associated with the soul as an internal light.

I can't speculate on what this means, but I feel as if it is a clue.

If anyone hasn't noticed, I have a very personal interest in language usage and communication in general. I am fascinated with visual rhetoric . . . Oh heck. When they psycho-babble vamp told Buffy that everyone was alone until they die, I knew what he was saying. We live in a physical plane that lends itself to manipulation of energy to separate all of us from one another. Pure communication is not possible because we only hear the words. We don't hear the thoughts or feel the feelings that led to those words so we will always be alone in our heads until we die. Unless, of course, we are in a situation like Spike.

[> You make me wonder -- Vickie, 17:37:10 11/14/02 Thu

Why would the William part run away from the cigarrettes? I can see that, if it did, the demon part might be running the show. And the demon might be able to resist the pain of the chip, or bigbad might have disabled it. Also...

Why do you think the woman with Spike wasn't human? And why do you believe she was sired? I saw Spike drink her, but I didn't see anything else.

Finally, both Spike and Dawn have blood-filled mouths towards the end. Dawn's apparently wasn't real or was healed. It was her own blood. Spike's apparently was real, and the blood belonged to another. I have no idea what this means, just an interesting almost parallel.

BTW, Buffy never called Spike her boyfriend. Holden said that. She didn't correct him, though.

[> [> Re: You make me wonder -- luna, 18:14:30 11/14/02 Thu

I'm of the party that thinks Spike's girl was not real. It seemed that there was a pattern in the episode--each of the other sections was about someone dealing with a dead person (title, emphasized by being included for the first time) and only Spike's would have been different. And she had the same effect on him that Holden had on Buffy, Joyce on Dawn, Cassie on Willow, and Warren on Jonathan and/or Andrew: to tempt both with happiness and with evil, and to separate from all the others. I think the BB will be defeated only by all the Scoobies, including Spike, acting together, and the attack will be psychological/spiritual. This episode was about attempts to isolate them from each other, just as the earlier episodes brought them back together.

[> [> [> Re: You make me wonder -- Sarand, 09:15:02 11/15/02 Fri

In the scenes between Spike and the blonde in the bar, Spike would have been the dead person with whom the blonde was having a conversation. Thus, all the scenes would have a person having a conversation with a dead person. Doesn't mean that there weren't other things going on; just pointing out that she didn't have to be dead for the title to work or for the Spike scenes to fit with the theme of the other scenes.

[> [> Regarding smokes -- Deb, 06:49:09 11/15/02 Fri

The package of smokes were the stimulus that told William that the BIG BAD had arrived or was coming. Running was the response.

I don't think the woman wasn't human. I think she was being manipulated by BB too. I was asking why some others thought she was not human. I agree that the whole thing was a set- up, but I think she was just used.

One other thought on the "bite scene." The camera angle was such that we looked down upon what was happening. It has been proven that people, under extreme situations, are capable of removing their conscious from their bodies and float above. This is just a thought: What if what we were seeing was William's POV?

I think they did a great job with the sequence. I actually put my hands over my face and peeked through my fingers.

Question about Morphy (Spoilers for BtVS S7, ep 7.7) -- cjc36, 07:33:45 11/14/02 Thu

Azura Skye did a pretty scary performance in Conversations. I'm wondering, when we're down to the last 7 or so episodes this spring, should Morphy (or First Evil, Satan, Anti- Clause, whatever) finally settle on a 'final' form? Should it be someone we know, or someone new? The biggest of bads, one could argue, needs a face all his/her own.

Personally, I think someone from the past should be the final form.

[> All roads lead to... (Spoilers for BtVS S7, ep 7.7) -- Darby, 08:36:21 11/14/02 Thu

If it would be burning too many bridges (but it is, so it won't happen), it'd be great for the BB to secretly off Giles and for ASH to play BB for the final confrontations.

You weren't expecting me to say Spike, were you? Although that might be an interesting way to go, as well, and probably workable, as it's hard to imagine how Spike would fit into the potentially Buffyless universe we'll get if Sarah doesn't re-up.

[> [> Re: All roads lead to... (Spoilers for BtVS S7, ep 7.7) -- leslie, 09:16:34 11/14/02 Thu

"as it's hard to imagine how Spike would fit into the potentially Buffyless universe we'll get if Sarah doesn't re- up."

Oh? Wouldn't he carry on exactly as he did over the summer that Buffy was dead? And couldn't you have said the same thing about Angel any time up to the point he got spun off? I think Spike is actually the character with the most potential autonomy, since he actually *had* it before meeting Buffy.

Though personally, I think he should go home to England and annoy Giles on Ripper.

Bite the Hand That Be You (Spoilers to date) -- Darby, 07:38:08 11/14/02 Thu

Watched Restless again. Got some ideas.

The Slayer is supposed to be a super-footsoldier in the fight against Evil. Powerful, but subservient and expendable.

A tool. The only one like it in the belt.

But along comes Buffy, who doesn't fit the mold. She resists the power, finds ways to not die and slips comfortably into the role of general. She gathers a group of other tools to help her.

She is no longer the tool.

She is the Hand.

But she doesn't want to be the Hand. She resists it, hates the decisions that it forces her to make, the responsibilities that Slayers were not meant to shoulder (sorry, wrong body part). The Power of the Slayer dates back to when women would never be warriors, strategists, but times have changed, and Buffy is dealing with Female Empowerment in a Brave New World. No wonder she feels like she's not up to handling all of that, especially when she cuts herself off from the support that allowed her to reach this position in the first place - so much so that she doesn't feel worthy of that support.

I believe that this season will be about the re- establishment of Buffy's connections - to her friends, to her lovers, to her Watcher and the Watcher's Council, to her power and her place in the world. To the world of vampires and demons. Back to her Beginnings, but with the understanding that comes with maturity and experience. To the roots of her own, personal power.

But first she must overcome those doubts brought to light in Conversations With Dead People. Because you know how self-doubt works: From Beneath You, It Devours.

They keep telling us it's all connected.

- Darby, suspecting that all of the capitalizations are getting a bit irritating.

[> Let those who will be irritated be irritated -- CW, 07:54:34 11/14/02 Thu

I think your presentation was well justified. So is the thought you're expressing. Maybe the episode wasn't as obscure as it first seemed...

[> Finally, a positive understanding of Buffy; I love this post - Thanks -- Dochawk, 09:43:30 11/14/02 Thu

[> I like the capitalizations; they underline the fact that the Beneath You demon is Very Bad, Indeed! -- Rob, 10:35:19 11/14/02 Thu

[> I think I've seen "Female Empowerment in a Brave New World" in my old university library -- Slain, 11:56:45 11/14/02 Thu

London Meet up -- Rahael, 08:07:36 11/14/02 Thu

Just trying to move this along.

So far, we're thinking of the weekend of 23/24 November, right?

And I think that Yabyumpan and KdS are coming along.

Which day would you guys prefer, Saturday or Sunday? and where would be a good place to meet up?

Let me know here, or via email. Or do both! Maybe we can get more people!

[> Re: London Meet up -- pr10n, 09:16:35 11/14/02 Thu


Tried to convince Wifey that 7 time zones was not too far to go for a Buffy confab, but she wouldn't go for it.

Sounds like you'll have fun, though. I hope it works out!

[> Please e-mail me, Rah -- Wisewoman , 10:02:11 11/14/02 Thu

[> Not an RSVP but... -- Deeva, 10:08:39 11/14/02 Thu

I will be there February 11-15. And I'm wondering how cold it will be. I'm trying to figure out what to pack. And, of course, what to shop for. ;o)

[> [> Re: Not an RSVP but... -- yabyumpan, 11:16:43 11/14/02 Thu

Expect very cold, raining, poss snow, brrrr weather. Feb tends to be one of the coldest months in the UK.

And Rah, re: the meet, either would be fine although I might be more awake on the sunday ;-). Actually, if you and KdS can make it, the following W/E would suit me better. If not, then what we've got planned is fine, don't want to cause any upsets :-)

[> Either day's fine -- KdS, 11:56:04 11/14/02 Thu

Somewhere relatively central is best for me. The only problem is I'm seeing Harry Potter at 5:30 on Saturday, but I thought we were talking about lunch.

Do you think you could email your email address if you don't want to put it on the board?

more human than human (7.7 spoiler/ponderings) -- neaux, 08:28:17 11/14/02 Thu

Is the reason Xander and Anya were left out of this episode because they are straight up humans?

I would like to suggest that Buffy, Spike, Dawn, and Willow were singled out because of there "more human than human" status.
But this notion would be negated when you include Andrew in the mix, right?

or is Andrew "special" too?

[> Re: more human than human (7.7 spoiler/ponderings) -- pr10n, 09:08:17 11/14/02 Thu

That was my thinking -- What have Xander and Anya got going, except field time and courage blahblah? Not stuff Evil would value, until later in the game when Evil smacks its forehead and mutters, "Blast! I forgot the Pesky Kids Factor!"

What has Andrew got, then? Andrew's corporeal -- he can interact with reality, in a pointy way. Is Morphy limited to sarcasm and guilt trips? No touchee? I don't remember the First Evil intereacting with physical reality, but of course your mileage may vary.

If Morphy is limited to head games and Dark Jedi mind tricks, then Andrew is the poorest of poor saps: he's got a thing for a Thing that uses whatever tools It can.

I am reminded of an Offspring ditty: "The more you suffer/The more it shows you really care, right?" Good luck with that, Andrew.

[> Re: more human than human (7.7 spoiler/ponderings) -- LittleBit, 10:51:07 11/14/02 Thu

I'm not sure I agree with this. In Xander's case, yes ... he's well-established as the one with no special powers. While we have seen him invoke at least one spell (burning the book), and taking responsibility for the OMWF spell, we never see him in control of it.

Anya, while she may not be a demon any more, was still capable of performing significant, if not Willow-level, magic. In her original life she performed a vengeance spell that caught the attention of d'Hoffryn, who even asked how she managed part of it. Anya worked with Willow on the Dopplegangland spell that brought VampWillow to this universe. And we saw her ability to invoke nearly every spell in the Evil Bunny Magic book in Tabula Rasa. She was a capable assistant to Willow in Same Time Same Place, when they used the demon locator spell.

Andrew's role in the Trio was that of demon-summoner, so he too displayed some ability (and control of that ability) beyond the norm.

Speculation on the Big Bad -- fearshade, 09:03:19 11/14/02 Thu

I think I know who the Big Bad is for this season. (Lengthy)

At the end of Lessons, Morphy talks about how it's time to go back to the beginning and that it's not about right or wrong but power.

So I immediately began thinking that the connection had to be somewhere at the beginning of the first season.

Then, as with others, I thought of The First from Ammends. (Note: The entity is known as the First in what little can be found on it, it was the entity itself that claims to be the First Evil.) The First says "You think you can fight me? I'm not a demon, little girl. I am something that you can't even conceive. The First Evil. Beyond sin, beyond death. I am the thing the darkness fears. You'll never see me, but I am everywhere. Every being, every thought,
every drop of hate."

Finally, in CwDP, Morphy says she's tired of the good/evil balance thing.

So, with all this in mind, I went back to the first season. What's the first power Buffy faced after the Master? In Season 1 Episode 3, the first power invoked against Buffy was Hecate. That's right, Hecate!

Hecate, Goddess of witchcraft, the underworld, and night's darkness, is the First. The First Offspring of the titans, Perses and Asteria, thus making her the First Heir to the underworld, and possibly the First Olympian as Zeus dare not take any power away from her for she was stonger than him. Hecate is a three-fold goddess. Threefold presiding over crossroads, cemetaries, and gateways. Threefold presiding over Sky, Earth, and Underworld. Threefold presiding over Birth, Life and Death; as well as Past, Present, and Future.

The Big Bad(Hecate) no longer cares for the balance of good and evil. This corresponds to Hecate as she was neither benevolent or malevolent. She rewarded or punished according to her own will.

When not wielding a torch, Hecate is often portrayed as holding a key(symbol of unlocking nature's mysteries), a rope(symbol connecting a person to rebirth/renewal), and a dagger(symbol of cutting the ties between life and death). This type of symbolism can be seen in CwDP in the three people spotlighted in the episode.
Dawn(the Key) is trying to "unlock" the secrets trying to handed to Dawn. She even uses a spell that is worded similiarly to a ritual used to call for Hecate's protection.
Willow(the Rope) is the person trying to renew her 'connections' to her old friends and in this episode to the spirit of Tara.
Buffy(the Dagger) is always in the middle of life and death and holds the power to give or take either one.

The Big Bad says it's not about right or wrong, good or evil, but about power. Attacking these 'symbols', is nothing but a show of force to Hecate.

Hecate is the goddess of witchcraft, she was trying to get rid of Willow for one simple reason - Willow reached a power level strong enough to nearly destroy the world, thusly, she would be the only one capable of stopping the very source of magick.

Hecate's name has several meanings - 'Influence from afar', 'a-far-away-power',. She is a goddess of the moon, and when the moon's power is used by her, the moon is known as the 'funnel of the earth' - this could be used as a term for the Hellmouth.

Hecate is sometimes depicted in triple form - the maiden, the mother, and the crone. Hecate is usually depicted with her being the crone, Demeter as the mother, and Persephone as the maiden.

Hecate is the First Goddess of the Underworld and guides the restless spirits of the dead to the underworld, thus giving her control over the dead. In Lessons, the talsiman must have been dedicated to Hecate, allowing the spirits to crossover.

I also beleive that Hecate was influencing the cult boys in Help to kill Cassie. Cassie was a precog. What would be worse for Hecate than have a precog join Buffy and ruin her plans. Cassandra is also the name of a Greek prophetess who could see the future. However, she was cursed with the sad fact that no one would beleive in what she saw.

Hecate has the power to change shape or age at will, as well as the power to heal or kill. She can reward people with good fortune and luck, or punish them with bad. She can induce illuminating visions or frightening nightmares.

Hecate is the source of all magic and the balance therein. I beleive Willow's varied uses of magic upset that balance and Hecate as well.

[> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- Haecceity, 09:30:59 11/14/02 Thu

Neat idea. It would figure, wouldn't it? To have a "throw- away" big bad?

And this would certainly address the issues a lot of Wiccans have expressed with the show not illustrating the responsibilities/consequences of magic very clearly.


[> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- Kurse the Tormented, 10:44:07 11/14/02 Thu

Very logical input.. you know yoru Mythos well.. it would serve that Willow is the catalyst of this apocolypse then.. which could have started from the raising of Buffy.

a Soul torn from Heaven (Buffy)
a Soul torn from Hell (Spike)
a Defender of Light cloaked in Darkness (Willow)
what is to happen.. no one can ever Tell.

[> [> Re: cool poem -- CrymsynBlood, 11:08:58 11/14/02 Thu

Have you written anymore? On the board or elsewhere?

[> [> [> Re: cool poem -- Kurse the Tormented, 11:12:26 11/14/02 Thu

actually its an excerpt from a full length poem over this season's BtVS.. been thinking of posting it soon.

Kurse the Tormented

[> [> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- fearshade, 11:27:13 11/14/02 Thu

I like this poem. I read your later post below and encourage you to post the rest of it.

And yes, you could say I know my Mythos well, being an avid greek mythos fan and a wiccan researcher.

What did you think of my connection between Hecate's symbols and the girls? I'd like to add more, it's just wording it properly. Feel free to add your opinions, please.

[> [> [> Re: Speculation on the Big Bad -- Kurse the Tormented, 16:00:47 11/14/02 Thu

I think you were dead On. The Big Guy Loves to indulge in his ancient Mythos, and routinely falls back on greek and egyptian myth. Hecate is a prime suspect for the BB. The usage of the Trio in opening the gate is something that she would do, as well as manipulate the others to get them to fall from the path of the goodies...

It will be interesting to see if your logic, and my own personal thoughts lead somewhere close to what lord Joss has in mind.

[> you could be right... -- lynx, 02:06:26 11/15/02 Fri

>>>Hecate is the source of all magic and the balance therein. I beleive Willow's varied uses of magic upset that balance and Hecate as well.<<<

when willow tried to change RJ from male to female (in Him), it was Hecate she was supplicating.......... and she made a point of her(Hecate) NOT liking to be interrupted!

7.7 SPIKE SPECULATION - SPOIL THIS! -- Angelina, 09:04:30 11/14/02 Thu

Hey guys, anyone think that the "real" Spike(s) was home having a brewski in front of the TV with his ole bud Xander?

Also, some food for thought - perhaps our darling Spike NEVER really got his soul back at all. Perhaps the African Demon Cave Dweller was actually the First Big Bad, First Evil or Morphy or whatever the hell its called. Maybe that whole ritual Spike went through was a great big ole Demonic Hoax, perpetrated by the First Evil to gain access of Spike's mind AND the chip, to begin the Ultimate Shenanigans in Sunnydale. Spike the Puppet Boy at the beck and call of Mr. Morphy. ANYTHING is better that the scenario that was played out on Tuesday night. I would rather Spike just go back to his old evil ways, then actually be given his soul back and have THIS happen to him. My goodness, he never even got the chance to acclimate himself to the whole soul thing, which deprived me of watching William unfold, before it was yanked out of his grasp.
Quite frankly, I am hoping for the watching TV with Xander explanation. I cannot bear Spike being all Bite Me with a soul. Hey, come to thing of it, is this even allowed!!!!

[> Wow, Angelina, I wish you had read my post yesterday -- Spike Lover, 10:24:24 11/14/02 Thu

I posted yesterday "High Praise for Conversations". It is already archived.

Actually, I don't have any problem w/ Spike biting and killing again, particularly w/ a soul, because I believe it was THE LOVE that inspired him to change, nothing else.

As a soulless vamp, Old Spike had high self-esteem, and well he should have. He had survived, which is a feat for a vampire. He was head of a gang for a number of years. He had killed 2 mortal enemies. He could be proud. They were doing research papers on him.

Now that he has a soul, something he never had before, he feels guilt for all his accomplishments, and his self-esteem has gone to nothing.

He has become the quote that he said in the Thanksgiving ep so long ago: I came, I conquered, I feel really bad about it.

Before, he was ok w/ Buffy treating him bad, using him, beating him half to death in the alley last year, because his own self-esteem was strong enough to handle it. He never bought into the -she hates me because I am a worthless thing.

He saw it as 'you only hurt the one you love.' He saw that SHE was the one w/ the issues, the pain, etc. It was not about him. (He was right.)

Now that he has a soul and guilt, he definately has issues w/ himself. He has become a house divided. It think the writers may say that Spike actually is doing this- because he no longer believes he is worthy of any sort of love, let alone Buffy's and he wants to die. The surest way to get her to kill him (let's go out fighting) is for him to cross the line.

However, the delicious interpretation I got from watching the 'gentleman vampire' kill the girl is that he simply no longer cares about rising above his nature.

(I mean, when you are on a diet and you have a real emotional setback- it is pretty easy to give in to tempation and go and eat every forbidden cupcake available. In your mind, you just ask yourself, why should I continue to try. I will never succeed. I am doomed to be overweight or a failure or unpopular or whatever. -See Eddie Murphy's The Nutty Professor.)

You know, likely Spike has had a rought night also of having to listen to the voices of his victims in his head. Maybe he bit that girl just to hear them scream in terror.-?

But also, what if the unthinkable has happened and he no longer loves Buffy? Perhaps he too has finally abandoned her, not physically, but emotionally. (REmember As You Were, she comes to him and requests, "Tell me you love me." Well, what if she went back to him and asked again, and the reply was- 'WEll, not really. I think you have a lot of issues, and well, no.") Would Buffy be able to survive this? And what progress can Spike make on his own, being tormented w/ a soul, without love?

The scene at the very end of the episode (spoilers for Conversations with dead people) -- Sophie, 09:07:06 11/14/02 Thu

The scene at the very end of the episode where Spike eats his date

The camera shifts very little through this scene. We only see the scene from one position, exactly as if we were sitting in a theatre. The ability of film to allow us multiple viewpoints, close-up shots, has been removed. The arch of the building acts like a stage proscenium. The total lack of dialogue emphasizes the actions and the whole arrangement gives the scene the feeling of being a simple skit. But it is not a simple skit.

The only exception, is a quick shot of Spike's head when he bites the girl, which just parallels our intense interest. When we are just watching, the scene is far away – full-body – when we are intensely interested (sitting on the edge of our seats), the shot is extreme close-up. The way the scene is chopped up and shown as quick pieces in between other scenes dealing with much weightier matters – Cas trying to get Willow to commit suicide, Dawn seeing her Mom, Buffy killing Holden – makes the scene feel like lightweight background filler.

At first blush, the skit is that of any date. At the end of the date, they guy walks the girl home and gets a goodnight kiss at the front door. Many guys want more than a kiss, and many try for more than a kiss, but most are civilized and accept only a kiss. That Spike goes for the kill reminded me of a typical bad date. Joss' metaphors are becoming really blatant. (Of course, I could just be getting older and more experienced in the world.) We see Spike getting a date as if he has begun to live in a normal, good fashion that suddenly twists and sickens – Spike turns evil and kills - much like a bad joke. Much like gaudy humor skits done in cabarets. Done in complete sick, bad taste just for the audience's amusement. Except that it is not funny. Spike is feeding again. Suddenly, everything has changed.

[> I guess you knew that was going to strike one of my nerves -- Spike Lover, 09:53:29 11/14/02 Thu

Bad Date.?

I saw a completely different scene. I saw Spike being depressed at the bar, and the girl coming up to him.

I saw him walk her home.

I saw her invite him in.

I saw him refuse.

I saw him kill her.

No, I definately did not see a 'bad date', but a gentleman vampire. Yes, I am serious.

You know how vamps love to be 'invited in'. He does not do that. Nor did he try to rape or date rape her.

He kills her- isn't that what vampires are suppose to do? It does not seem to me like a feeding, as he dropped her too quick. But maybe he only wanted a bite to eat. (lol)

For everyone who says (not you) that Spike was actually killing something evil, and was not really killing an innocent human, what do they make of the vamp shrink who claims that Spike was his sire? Or they saying that the vamp was actually a manifestation (like Cassie) and threw out a name that Buffy would know? Or was the vamp lying to her to make her mad?

[> [> I think we really don't know -- Vickie, 10:16:49 11/14/02 Thu

We know bigbaddie can impersonate the dead. I suppose it's possible it's actually animating the dead, but they are all really well preserved if so.

We know bigbaddie can either influence or impersonate vampires. Maybe control them.

We don't know for certain that Holden was an agent of bigbaddie, whether controlled or an impersonation. However I'm inclined to think that Buffy's experience was parallel to Willow's and Dawn's: an attempt by bigbaddie to influence, manipulate, and possibly harm the targeted woman. Therefore, I think that Holden was a controlled vampire, at least.

Of course, we don't know whether Spike really was his sire, even if Holden was self motivated. He could lie. And Spike could have been influenced, or controlled, or driven mad into attacking several humans. The chip could have been deactivated (see death by stereo, etc.) or Spike could be just toughing it out.

However, in the version I saw, Spike's mouth was filled with blood at the end of the episode, and he looked quite satisfied. Looked like a feeding to me.

YMMV, of course. Won't it be fun to find out what's true?

[> [> [> my two cents -- Can I be Anne?, 11:36:25 11/14/02 Thu

On Psychotherapy:
While Buffy's experience was certainly meant to parallel the others in the ep, it doesn't lead me to believe that Holden was a manifestation or an agent of the shapeshifter. He hardly seemed deceptive. He was barely motivated to kill her. He was motivated to help her, while somewhat reluctantly accepting the reality that they would have to fight to the death. I think that everything Holden was helping Buffy figure out about herself is true and essential to Buffy's journey of self discovey and integration. In contrast, Morphojoyce and Morphocassie made calculated attempts to gain the trust of Dawn and Willow based on their fears and memories, before sowing seeds of mistrust and chaos. I think this was far less apparant to D and W than to the viewers who had seen many views of the action.

On Spike:
I was as shocked as anyone to learn that souled Spike was eating and siring people. Stranger/scarier still is that he STILL HAS A CHIP IN HIS HEAD! I don't believe this is mere inconsistancy. I doubt he has chosen to ignore so much pain. He showed no sign of pain in the last scene. Nothing but relish.

[> [> The Yoko Factor and cheesy sequels -- Farstrider, 12:13:41 11/14/02 Thu

For everyone who says (not you) that Spike was actually killing something evil, and was not really killing an innocent human, what do they make of the vamp shrink who claims that Spike was his sire? Or they saying that the vamp was actually a manifestation (like Cassie) and threw out a name that Buffy would know? Or was the vamp lying to her to make her mad?

I think Spike/Buffy/Willow (and maybe Dawn) are a powerful force that any BB would be ascared of. Like Adam did in S4, the BB is trying to cleave the group, at the same time that Buffy (in Him) is trying to re-assemble it (interestingly, cleave is its own antonym). To make use of a current phrase, i think coalition building will be critical to defeat the BB -- probably because the BB feeds/thrives on despair.

Please please please reassure me, though that the only means of defeating the BB will not be everyone 'just getting along' a la Ghostbusters II. If I see an animated statue of liberty in 7x22, I will be very disappointed.

[> [> [> You gave me a thought! -- Sophie, 13:34:09 11/14/02 Thu

Maybe the Big Bad removed Spike's chip - sort of a deal - Big Bad appraoches Spike and offers to remove the chip in exchange for work/help from Spike later on. Maybe Spike is a sort of Faust - sold his soul to Mephistopheles/Big Bad? The chipectomy could have caused the insanity. (My apologies if this has already been suggested!)


[> [> Ahhh...the wrath of Spike Lover -- Sophie, 13:39:51 11/14/02 Thu

I'm not surprised to incur your wrath once more. Be careful, or I'll feed you to Sophomorica. :)


[> [> I can't answer on the grounds it would be a Spoiler....but a hint...spoiler -- Rufus, 18:48:34 11/14/02 Thu

But you are going to see many things that will upset Spike fans......but what is real?

[> I guess Spike decided to forget about the hurt and go for the kill.....;) spoilers -- Rufus, 18:53:59 11/14/02 Thu

Spike turns evil and kills - much like a bad joke. Much like gaudy humor skits done in cabarets. Done in complete sick, bad taste just for the audience's amusement. Except that it is not funny. Spike is feeding again. Suddenly, everything has changed.

I thought the scene where Spike kills the girl was well done...we never hear him speak we only see his actions....and I wonder why they wrote it that way? Spike is appearing to walk on the dark side, the side that Evil Spike lovers cheer for.....but is what we saw all there is...I think not. But, that said I think that anyone that decides to blame Buffy or Xander or the Easter Bunny for any of Spikes actions are way off course in what is really going on, but I bet the Buffy/Xander/Easter Bunny bashing shall commence.....because we all know how blameless Spike has always been.......;)

[> [> Re: I guess Spike decided to forget about the hurt and go for the kill.....;) spoilers -- Sophie, 19:13:06 11/14/02 Thu

I was commenting on the way the scene was written and shot. Spike turning evil is no skin off my teeth.


[> [> [> Re: I guess Spike decided to forget about the hurt and go for the kill.....;) spoilers -- Rufus, 20:10:42 11/14/02 Thu

I liked the scene and I think that maybe more people will appreciate it in retrospect, but for now I can imagine what is going through the minds of Spike fans and detractors.

"Beneath you" and "Slouching" the same? -- Natasha, 09:16:31 11/14/02 Thu

This may sound rediculous once I actually start to write this message, but I've been getting the feeling that whatever is coming to Sunnydale and what's coming to LA is the same something. You have the "Beneath you it devours" and "slouching towards bethlehem," it all sounds like the same Big Bad that is the Biggest Bad that they all (the Scooby Gang and AI)have had to fight. If this is too ridiculous, just keep in mind that I wrote two papers in the same night so my brain is not at it's full potential. Let me know what you think...

[> Not ridiculous at all... -- Rob, 10:32:30 11/14/02 Thu

...Many of us here having been having the very same thoughts, especially since both shows imply that this year is THE Apocalypse, and both make references to the hugest evil they have ever faced.


[> Re: "Beneath you" and "Slouching" the same? -- Farstrider, 12:03:30 11/14/02 Thu

I think you may be right. But, how will that work logistically between the networks? Cross-overs are a no-no now (unless some secret arrangement has been made, but that seems unlikely to happen and unlikely that it could be kept secret).
So, will Angel and Buffy fight the BB serially? Simultaneously, but under a Willow like invisibility spell?
Simultaneously fight different aspects of the same BB?
If someone can speculate more better (-er) on this than I, it will probably shed some light on the BB.

Just a thought,
I hope she dies, I'm free if that bitch dies.
I better help her out . . .

[> [> Re: "Beneath you" and "Slouching" the same? -- Blood Luvin Girl, 12:43:32 11/14/02 Thu

I think that it might be the same apocolypes, but each show will have it's own Big Bad. As in the Big Bad from each show are both involved with the same death and destruction on the grand world ending scale, but are working towards it on their own.

But I wouldn't be suprized if the seal we saw uncovered, the one Johnathan died on, is connected with the rising of the BB on Angel. You know Johnathan's death breaks the seal and it allows the Big Bad of Angel as well as some other bad stuff to be released.

What do you think?

Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec) -- cjl, 09:28:05 11/14/02 Thu


I was about to answer Rob's AtS post, when the obvious answer occurred to me:

Spike is the "vampire with a soul" in the Shanshu prophecy. Of course Morphy wants Spike on his/her/its side for the upcoming apocalyptic battle. Cleanest explanation in the pile as far as I'm concerned....

[> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec) -- Arethusa, 09:45:04 11/14/02 Thu

I think Spike is going to be instrumental in helping/hindering Buffy fight IT. As I stated below, Spike might be the key to Buffy opening up her hear. Her love is her strength, and if she learns to open up and love again, how powerful can she become?

There's no direct evidence that Angel, not Spike, is the vampire in the prophesies, but Lorne's readings and the Oracles have indicated that Angel is a very important Champion/force for good. I've learned to not underestimate ME's ability to deceive and misdirect, though.

[> [> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec) -- frisby, 17:50:36 11/14/02 Thu

Yes! It is the love between Spike and Buffy that will power the final triumph over the first evil, although Dawn (cosmos) and Willow (earth) and Giles (Watcher's Coven and Wicca Covens) and even Xander (humanity) will be needed too. Buffy wants her fire back -- Spike is the key.

[> [> [> My frosted side is screaming, Yes! Yes! -- Deb, 07:11:25 11/15/02 Fri

But my unfrosted side is saying, "Don't set yourself up for disappointment over a fictional, television show." Still. . .

[> [> [> [> Re: My frosted side is screaming, Yes! Yes! -- alcibiades, 09:27:03 11/15/02 Fri

But my unfrosted side is saying, "Don't set yourself up for disappointment over a fictional, television show." Still. .

Yeah, it's the bad boyfriend approach to watching Buffy.

If you get your hopes up, ME is sure to disappoint, dreadfully.

[> [> [> [> Re: My frosted side is screaming, Yes! Yes! -- frisby, 07:21:21 11/16/02 Sat

Yes, it is a fictional, television show, but (as I will argue for my paper for my course on the "History of Television" next semester) as a participant (spectator) in that cultural event, I will always have some say in what I take away from it and how I appropriate it's lessons and make them part of my life. Personally, what I learn from the buffyverse these days becomes food for poetry, which may end differently than Joss decides, but still, Joss has not disappointed me yet, and each season has improved on those before, and I trust his consumation and completion of this series overall will earn him this acclaim: creator of the best television dramatic++ series ever (so far) -- the "Citizen Kane" of tv. (And still, thanks for the good advice -- you're right of course, but until that big disappointment really sets in -- if ever -- I'll remain confident.)

[> [> [> [> [> I've been burnt once -- Deb, 10:39:30 11/16/02 Sat


I agree with you totally on its what we take from the text. I have students, though, whose lives depend upon what happens on their favorite TV show. I tell them if they are not happy with what's happening, go write your own show the way you want things to happen.

"Is that an assignemnt?"


"Good. I really don't have time to think it up."

So they prefer to view the text only from the superficial, and have their emotions rocketing all over the place like a superball.

[> [> [> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec) -- Arethusa, 08:53:55 11/15/02 Fri

No, I meant that coming to terms with Spike might help her get over the trauma of loving and losing Angel, leaving her open to love again in the future. I think it's unlikely that Buffy and Spike will have a romantic relationship for two reasons:

1. He tried to rape her. ME would be sending out a very confusing message if they showed a woman falling in love with her rapist. They're clever and devious enough to get around this, but why would they want to expose themselves to more slightly hysterical criticism?

2. Buffy probably doesn't love Spike. She didn't even like him very much. Did she ever voluntarily spend any time in his company when she wasn't depressed? Was there anything about him that she liked? Did Spike like Buffy? He was very attracted to her physically and in Entropy, I think, he said he had wanted her because she was so raw and alive, but remember that before he started sleeping with her, he agreed with Faith that she was joyless and stuck-up. Vampire Spike came to love Buffy, but does souled Spike love her? He might not even want to be with a woman who treated him so shabbily, and he, like Anya, has a lot of emotional work to go through before he can start a healthy relationship.
How would it further Buffy's emotional growth and hero's journey to fall in love with Spike? Remember, ME doesn't create romantic relationships to give the audience warm fuzzies; they create them to put the characters through the kind of experiences that will result in emotional growth and drama.

Both changed their opinions about each other over time, but a romantic relationship now is one of the less probable (and, IMO desireable) future consequences of their destructive affair.

[> [> [> [> The way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- darrenK, 11:04:52 11/15/02 Fri

You're point about Spike being Buffy's rapist is a very good one and could indeed be a point of extreme controversy.

But, if I were a ME writer looking for a way around this, my logic would flow like this...

•Spike trys to rape Buffy
•Spike's conflicted and remorseful so he has William's soul restored to him.
•Spike suffers an extreme case of multiple personality syndrome as the inner battle rages between Spike the demon and William the human
•William the human somehow prevails.
•William has the same body as Spike the rapist, but is not Spike the rapist.

That's just my conjecture. Even if they go this route it doesn't mean there's anyone living happily ever after. Not that that's possible in our own universe, much less the Whedonverse.

(Much more likely that everyone--especially the pets and children-- will burn in the fiery depths of hell.)


[> [> [> [> [> The naughty editor says your, not "you're" -- darrenK (grammar/usage brainlobe not responding to caffiene), 11:10:15 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Interesting. But a lot of posters here seem to think... -- cjl, 11:17:21 11/15/02 Fri

...that Spike's rape of Buffy was a distinctly HUMAN action. The vampire response to Buffy's emotional intransigence in the bathroom would have been to either: a) rip her throat out, or b) turn her, and make her into his willing vamp slave. When he's back in the crypt with Clem (and again-- where the heck is Clem this year?), he kinda wonders about that.

Part of what may be bothering Spike this season (vis-a-vis his dealings with Buffy) is that he thinks WILLIAM, not Spike was the bad man who tried to rape her. This would have been a fascinating avenue to explore at length--except his vamp half seems to be acting up again.

Oh well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Attempted, didn't actually happen. -- Deb, 15:34:15 11/15/02 Fri

Whoever came up with the idea of the attempted rape should be strung up by their thumbs over a vat filled with spiders, snakes and an assortment of starving rodents, even though I THINK I understand what they were ATTEMPTING to do, but they chose the low road.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- Arethusa, 11:53:56 11/15/02 Fri

I think anything Spike did can potentially be forgiven intelectually for the same reasons that Angel is forgiven. Buffy is dealing with Spike, but she has trouble on an emotional level, because her body flinches automatically when he touches her. His appearance hasn't changed much, and triggers a physical revulsion in her. I was amazed to see posters ask why she didn't just get over it, since she wasn't raped and it was a different person who tried to do it. But that's like telling your mouth not to water when chocolate chip cookies come out of the oven. The body has its own memories and reactions.

I think they won't go there because logic has no place in knee-jerk reactions, and many people won't care how or why Buffy would come to fall in love with Spike. They'll just express insult-laden fury that Whedon appears to excuse a rapist's actions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- yabyumpan, 12:37:59 11/15/02 Fri

I'm really not clear as to why people would think it would be wrong for Spike and Buffy to be together now after the attempted rape. If people thought it was alright for Buffy to get back with Angel in S3 because he had his soul back, even though he'd killed Miss Calender, tortured Giles, terrorised Buffy and her friends and tried to end the world; why shouldn't it be ok for Buffy to get together with Spike now he has a soul?

I'm not a S/B shipper, i really don't care one way or the other, I just don't understand what seems to be a double standard. Spike and Angel both did bad things with out their souls but when Angel got his back, viewers were mostly ok about him and Buffy getting back together and the ship still lives on! But now Spike has his soul it seems the rules are different. It would be unacceptable for Buffy and Spike to be together because of what he's done. Is attempted rape worse than murder and trying to end the world?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- Arethusa, 17:44:41 11/15/02 Fri

It is a double standard and it isn't logical, but for some illogical emotional gut-reaction-level reason, it really is different. Maybe it's because women are still fighting to get recognition of the extent of the problem.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The way out? (just spec/spoilers for 7.2) -- alcibiades, 20:00:33 11/15/02 Fri

For some of us these crimes are different in quite the opposite way, in that Angel's crimes as Angelus are much worse. Which is both the rational standard and the legal standard.

I also think it is important to remember that in Spike's mind he didn't have the intention of raping Buffy but of making love to her -- he wasn't actually trying to be her rapist, he was trying to be her lover or trying to get her admit something he felt she felt for him.

It turned nasty and brutal, and the breech of trust occurred, but it is an important difference in my mind. Intentionality does have a bearing on law.

As Shadowkat has stated repeatedly, all this happened while he was in the middle of a nervous breakdown.

I think it is completely different and in altogether a different category from having a rational grip on your mind as you torture and murder your former girlfriend's friends for kicks and power and an ego trip because you want to destroy the world.

Furthermore, last year on Angel showed us to what extent Angel as Angel was willing to employ these same methods, not for kicks but to get back his son and for simple revenge against Wesley. And I think Joss has been making Angel pay the price ever since. He's lost Cordy and his son, now, just at the moment he thought he had them both in his hand. His underwater dreams seem to be coming true. Everything is falling apart -- he can't keep it together. And from all the hints, it is going to get a lot worse on both shows this year.

[> Re: Have we been overlooking the obvious? (Spoiler spec AtS, BtVS) -- pr10n, 09:49:31 11/14/02 Thu

I was going to make this comment in leslie's thread below, but it fits better here. leslie said: In fact, it would appear, with the uncovering of that shield in the basement, that the ME2 is merely a minion of the Biggest Bad to come.

Um, whew. What if the Seal of D'Artagnan or whatever is a summoner or altar for Way!Evil. Good thought... Oh! Did we mention the SEAL? Open the Seal... hm, that's sorta biblically familiar. And Lorne did mention the Book of Revelation as source material for his vision of Cordy.

Makes you go hmmmm.

Angel gets himself a beating heart, in prep for what?

Spike gets himself ensouled, in prep for what?

What if both sides ("goodness" and "eveeel") are angling for their own soul!vamps? Angel in white hat, Spike in black hat, spurs jangling down the dusty street... Firefly crossover! Um, no.

[> We are so very much on the same page! (spoilery spec) -- Rob, 10:08:40 11/14/02 Thu

I had that thought while watching "To Shanshu in LA" for the first time, a week ago! All it says is "vampire with a soul," and Angel is not the only one anymore. And if he isn't, won't that make him p#$%!, and with good reason. It would be too cruel that after all these years of searching for redemption, he is denied his reward of becoming human, and instead that honor would go to Spike, who doesn't seem to be very redemption-y at the moment at all. And because it would be too cruel, it would make for great, Buffy-and-Angel- worthy gutwrenching drama!


[> [> Re: We are so very much on the same page! (spoilery spec) -- rose, 10:20:42 11/14/02 Thu

it would be a cruelty, thats never stopped ME before has it? Its even a potientialy justifed one esspecialy if someone (whatever was messing w/ evryone in conversations)is currently contorling spike, as has been suggested.
after all angel's soul is the result of a curse he never wanted it when he didn't have one and kill trying to prevent its return.
Spike willingly sought his soul out. He had been attempting redemption even WITHOUT his soul.Also without a rulebook, encouragement or even acknoledgment most of the time.
if the thing in the basement haden't driven him nuts I don't think spike wouold have undergone nearly the jeckle/ hyde angel did, does and will do wwhen the state of his soul changes.

[> [> We're all circling around something significant here... -- cjl, 10:33:29 11/14/02 Thu

Spike and Angel, each a vampire a soul, a melding of the human and demon, good and evil in the same vessel...

BtVS seems to be a lesson in growing up and learning to balance the dualities in our nature:

Willow/Darth Rosenberg
SuaveXander/Buttmonkey Xander

Each of our cast has the potential to be a big player for either good or evil. We have the BB and the PTB trying to maneuver ALL of them one way or the other.

The big players, supernaturally speaking, are the creatures whose dichotomies seem to contain the most power: Spike (vampire and human), Buffy (human and Slayer), Willow (good/dark witch), and Dawn (the Key, whose limitless power could be used for order as well as chaos). These four got a workover on Tuesday.

Right now, it appears Xander and Anya won't be too significant in the ultimate battle (both absent from class on Tuedsay), because they're all too human, and can't influence the outcome to any great degree. But Joss always finds a way for Xander to take on a pivotal role, and I don't think this year will be any different. (If anything, Xander's humanity in the midst of all this supernatural power might be a huge factor this year.)

"The vampire with a soul will play a big role in the upcoming apocalypse." We've heard that a million times on ANGEL, but now it assumes significance on BUFFY. Just as Wolfram and Hart hope to swing a souled Angel over the side of evil, has Buffy's BB recruited a souled Spike to fight for darkness? (Wouldn't it be cool if Spike gave up his soul just to thwart the prophecy?)

We've got the major themes of the season pretty well put together, but we can't quite see the finish line yet...

Further opinions?

[> [> [> Re: We're all circling around something significant here... -- rose, 10:50:21 11/14/02 Thu

*"Wouldn't it be cool if Spike gave up his soul just to thwart the prophecy"*

(sorry dont know how to make the italics work)

Also somthing he would likly do and with out thinking it first. If he did and wants to help still (very questionable at the moment) he should make shure the BB cant still influnce him.
buffy seems to be getting a little sick of being the slayer and if anything he said to her when she asked him about dead slayers was true she should hope he dosn't get it in his head to kill a third slayer.
making the preveiws for next week that much more unnerving.
why was she leting him that near her thinking hes hunting or does she not belive it? or maybe doesn't think he'll hurt her intentionally?

[> [> [> The thing I love about this season is... -- Rob, 10:51:00 11/14/02 Thu

...although I have a lot of ideas, and have read a lot of spec, I have honestly NO IDEA where it is really going. I haven't felt this way about the show since the fifth season, for although I am a Season Six fan, very few things surprised me in the sixth season. The characters were adrift and "slumming it," as Willow said, and for a long time, it didn't seem like it was leading anywhere. And that was the point.

The fifth season, arguably the last time we knew the show was "leading" somewhere, it was a little clearer than this. We knew that Buffy had to protect Dawn from Glory. And we assumed that it would lead up to a final battle against Glory, which it did. This year, though, who can say where it is going, who the Big Bad is, etc. It is making for quite the wild ride.

This year is filled with so much mystery about what the heck is going on, how and where everything and every one is going to fit in the story. We don't even know if this is the final year or not! Everything is up in the air, and it is making for some amazing suspense. I can honestly say that this year I have fallen in love with "Buffy" all over again. And I know that the winter break is going to drive me insane!


[> [> [> [> The mystery of the Big Bad -- Masq, 11:23:56 11/14/02 Thu

Season six took us out of the season pattern we're used to having, the whole build-up of the mystery of the big bad thing that allows us to speculate and guess and be wrong.

It was especially puzzling in season 4, when there didn't seem to be a big bad, but much speculation about the Initiative kept us busy. In season 5, there was Glory, and the whole mystery of what she was that wasn't revealed until episode 12.

In other seasons, though, we had something we just don't seem to have this season. We had scenes from the point of view of the big bad. We saw scenes with the Master talkng to his minions. We saw scenes with Spike and Dru, knew their motivations. We saw scenes with the Mayor, got to know him, guessed about what he wanted. We saw scenes with Glory, knew she wanted they Key and wondered when she'd find out about Dawn.

We haven't been in a scene with this season's bad, except when we saw it tormented Spike in episode 1!

So we are speculating out to sea more than usual this season.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The mystery of the Big Bad -- Tyreseus, 11:40:36 11/14/02 Thu

So we are speculating out to sea more than usual this season.

I agree completely, Masq.

In many seasons, ME misdirected us incredibly, leading us to believe one guy was the Big Bad, then killing them off and having a new Big Bad try to end the world (i.e. the geek trio gave way to veiny Willow). We've spent a lot of time (especially in the last two days) trying to understand the "bottom-devouring" thing, but I'm starting to yearn for more of that good old-fashioned philosophical/psychological debate ... themes, symbols, etc.

[> [> [> [> I know! I can hardly wait til the next ep! And I missed the preview. Can anyone fill me in? -- Dichotomy, 11:37:12 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I know! I can hardly wait til the next ep! And I missed the preview. Can anyone fill me in? -- rose, 14:38:16 11/14/02 Thu

Spike seemed to be very popular with the ladies.
Including buffy, who was leting him up close and behind her with no obvuios concern.
also the singer recognized him as a vampire.

[> [> [> [> [> [> The vampire who came in from the cold. -- Arethusa, 09:17:09 11/15/02 Fri

A "sleeper" is also another name for a mole-someone who lies in wait, undetected, until he is needed, in the foreign-spy sense.

Is Spike now a duplex, instead of a single-family dwelling? Is it significant that IT didn't attack Spike's roommate last week? (Or was that part of the female empowerment theme that IT didn't attack Xander last week?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The vampire who came in from the cold. -- alcibiades, 09:40:37 11/15/02 Fri

Is Spike now a duplex, instead of a single-family dwelling? Is it significant that IT didn't attack Spike's roommate last week?

Of course it is significant. the question is why didn't it attack Xander.

Either it sees subverting Xander as unimportant or less important than Dawn/Buffy/Willow/Jonathan because of his lack of magical ability and the lack of superpowered it aid it can give Buffy in the end of days or it already has a relationship to Xander we don't know about (think about how successfully Xander is doing this year) or it hasn't tried to subvert Xander yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Rose! Sounds intriguing! -- Dichotomy, 16:36:01 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> UPN is previewing "Sleeper" as a slice o' wacky goodness, but...(Spoilers 7.8) -- cjl, 14:40:47 11/14/02 Thu

But it seems to be about Spike seducing and draining vulnerable young women. One shot has Anya, looking extremely shaky, holding a stake in the air (it's not going to do you any good up there, sweetie) as she talks to Spike. It looks like Spike is completely unaware, even puzzled, as to why she's terrified. Is Spike killing (if it is Spike doing the killings) in his sleep?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: UPN is previewing "Sleeper" as a slice o' wacky goodness, but...(Spoilers 7.8) -- Doriander, 16:05:56 11/14/02 Thu

You know when I first learned of the ep’s title and that it was to be about Spike, I thought, will this be Spike’s “Somnambulist”? Nice! Then I looked up the word “sleeper” in the dictionary, not exactly synonymous with somnambulist. I hope they go with the idea though.

Of the seven(in my dictionary at least) somewhat divergent definitions, I’m leaning towards:

4 : someone or something unpromising or unnoticed that suddenly attains prominence or value (the low-budget film became the summer's sleeper)

The preview does show Spike cozying up with young women. Now, if we are to believe Holden, he’s probably gotten chummy with a few fellas as well. And he’s been at it for a while now, unnoticed, until next week apparently. So he’s a sleeper threat? Could also apply to the BigBad evil, who’s been passive/covert until recently. Or maybe even Andrew. Or all three. Is it Tuesday yet?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Somnambulist (spoilers, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari) -- Haecceity, 05:57:47 11/15/02 Fri

I too went straight to The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari when I saw this! Has some definite parrallels I'd get into if I weren't stuck at work, but quickly, off the top of my head:

1. We don't know if Spike is being controlled or is a free agent.
2. The somnambulist fell in love with his intended victim, things went badly
3. There was an "evil psychologist" involved

Maybe more, later.


[> [> [> [> [> [> UPN seems to be previewing EVERY episode as a "slice o' wacky goodness." It's getting annoying! -- Rob, 23:24:36 11/14/02 Thu

Two insane-troll-logic Theories about this year's Big Bad (Spoilers for Buffy and other stuff, too) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 11:36:38 11/14/02 Thu

1) This first one is probably the most insane of the two and is definitely the most obscure. If you read the transcript of Joss' AOL live chat currently posted on you will find him mentioning the influence specific Marvel comics had on him when he was younger, one of which was "Warlock". This comic just happens to be one of my all time favorites so I know the plot intimately. Adam Warlock was a synthetically generated being who was created by a cadre of nefarious scientists (Warren types everyone) who wanted a paragon of perfection they could use to rule the world (of course). They did their jobs too well, however; in his extreme nobility of spirit, Adam violently rejected their plan and fled into outer space to escape the squalor of (most) human ambitions. He wound up on counter-earth, a planet in the Marvelverse that is a skewered mirror image of their regular earth. Through a series of adventures he was revealed to be a modern-day Christ figure who was forced to sacrifice himself in a re-staging of the Crucifixion to defeat the plans of the Man-beast ( the anti-Christ figure in this new version of the Gospels) ( Remind anyone of "The Gift"?). Once resurrected, he resolved to travel the farthest depths of space to uncover his destiny. To make an extremely long and complicated story somewhat comprehensible ( this last version of Warlock was written by Jim Starlin, who, IMHO, is almos the equal of Joss as a writer ) he found himself at war with the Magus, an extremely powerful entity who had proclaimed himself God and estsablished the Universal Church of Truth to conquer all the worlds in the known universe ( humble fellow, what? ). In the first of many climactic moments in the series, it was revealed that the Magus was a future version of Adam Warlock who had gone progressively insane with the unfolding of his god-like powers and who had traveled into the distant past to set up his church and set certain events in motion to ensure he would one day become the Magus ( whew! does this make any sense? bear with me! ). I won't reveal the outcome especially since I think Joss might use some variation of it this year, but basically I think that not only might Buffy find herself in league with the BB but that she might be the BB! What we've been calling Morphy, the First Evil, etc., may be a future version of Buffy, imbued with powers far greater than she currently possesses, who has decided to travel to her past and end the whole Evil vs. Good dichotomy in a final, nihilistic blow-out that will resolve everything by destroying everything. I know ME has never used a time- travel plot before and I confess there is a certain amount of cheese in this idea but, come on, won't you admit the 12 year old fanboy ( or girl ) inside you is saying "cool!" right now? 2) The second theory I like much less and actually hope they don't use but, considering how sadistic Joss and ME can be, they might. Everything we have seen so far this season may just be the product of a mind entering the final stage of full-on schizophrenia. That's right, this could be more of the ravings of mental-asylum Buffy and the Big Bad is nothing more than her warped perceptions of the final efforts of her doctors to return her to sanity. Frankly I hate this idea more than words can tell but I know I'm not the only one who has been deeply frightened by this possibility, right? Anyway, here are my bizarro twins of Buffy speculation. Any reactions or opinions?

[> Time travel -- yez, 12:07:09 11/14/02 Thu

Warlock sounds very cool, and the "Slayer come back to slay all" theory is also very cool. I'm not sure it fits with "the earth has teeth" thing, though...

Re: "I know ME has never used a time-travel plot before...," on Angel last season, there was a dem on type who was a timetraveler and who brought someone from the past to the future. The demon himself, I believe, had also traveled back and forth in time to cause various mischief.

So, not impossible.


[> [> Re: Time travel -- Thomas the Skeptic, 12:29:33 11/14/02 Thu

Doh! I completely forgot about the time-traveling demon on Angel! Too much sleep deprivation, I think. Thanks for reminding me!

[> Another lunatic theory about the big bad... -- cjl, 12:34:57 11/14/02 Thu

1. As stated by the image of the Master in Lessons, the big bad is something that existed "before the bang...before the Word." The obvious implication is that the Big Bad is the Almighty, the Creator (but that's absurd, so let's move on).

2. In Gnos ticism and the Zoroastrian religion, the source of all evil is a false god, a demiurge who has taken the original creation and re-shaped it in his own image. It is the goal of all enlighted beings to penetrate the veil of illusion created by Ialdaboth and perceive the true face of creation.

3. The big bad is a transcendent force who is sick of the balance between Good and Evil, and wants to go out with a blast, taking everything and everyone with it.

4. At the start of every season, Joss Whedon sits in front of a word processor, with the entirety of the Buffyverse in his head before he even bangs on a key. Before the bang. Before the word. He's spent the past six years balancing good and evil on his brainchild, and now he's ready to end it all. Joss doesn't know the source of creation (he doesn't believe in God), but like any evil demiurge, he has shaped its essence to his own will.

5. Joss is the Big Bad.

(Question: if this is true, what would Buffy say to him if he appeared at the end? What would you say to your creator?)

[> [> My troll logic bows to your lunacy! -- Thomas the Skeptic, 13:04:35 11/14/02 Thu

I love it! Joss as the Big Bad! As a matter of fact, I have been toying with some variation of Gnosticism as yet another possible explanation for what's happening this year ( the great Immaterial God, Unmoved Mover, or whatever you prefer calling it moving into the existing world to finally clean up the mess the Demiurge has made of creation...) but I think I like your idea better!

[> [> Wordplay? (sp. 7.7) -- tomfool, 13:06:43 11/14/02 Thu

Along these lines, something that jumped out at me from CwDP.

NotCassie: 'Not It. ME.'

As in M(utant)E(nemy).

[> [> [> Intended or not, still brilliant. Good catch. -- yez, 13:17:58 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> Metacomix: Grant Morrison, Vonnegut and those fabulous '60s -- cjl, 13:35:35 11/14/02 Thu

In proposing this bit of metafictional madness, I think back to British author Grant Morrison's run on the comic book Animal Man, specifically the issue (#15?) where Buddy is meditating in the New Mexico desert (a real Carlos Castaneda- type moment) and he has a vision of the true nature of reality:

He sees the borders of the comic book panel. [I think I saw the same concept in one of those '60s underground comix, either the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers or R. Crumb's ZAP! Comix. Anybody remember specifics?]

Then in issue #26, after crossing the Land of Obsolete DC Comic Book Characters (funnier and weirder than you could possibly imagine), Buddy meets up with Morrison himself, who tries to explain why he made Buddy's life so miserable-- mainly, killing his wife and child. Morrison tries to tell Buddy that he wanted the comic book to be "realistic," but then realizes that cruelty and violence are too often the language of "reality" when it could just as easily be mercy. So Morrison uses his god-like powers to send Buddy back to his family. It was all "just a dream."

Lame, yes. But "Morrison" doesn't care.

I often think Joss, as the Buffyverse's resident deity, might also be sick of visiting death and violence on Buffy and her crew. It's realistic, yes, but he might want to show mercy upon his creations and set them free with his blessings, the way Vonnegut did at the end of Breakfast of Champions...

[> [> That would be amazing. -- yez, 13:24:37 11/14/02 Thu

I think that your case against Joss is airtight, and regardless of who/what the BB is this season, it will always, ultimately and forever, be Joss, the creator and the destroyer. But while him appearing as himself as the Big Bad would be groundbreaking TV (though seems to me I've heard of films or books like this where the whole story is in the mind of a certain person, but not sure if it's been established as the author...), I'm not sure even Dawn, the key, could repair a tear in the third wall like that. (Third wall? Fourth wall? I've never gotten it straight how many walls there are supposed to be.) I mean, could a show go on after that? Assuming Whedon does want it to go on somehow, which may not be a safe assumption. He's sounded very weary in interviews of late -- much like IT.


[> [> Crazy and beautiful (spoilers for 7.22 (perhaps)) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:46:01 11/14/02 Thu

This is a wonderful, wonderful theory.

It reminds me a little bit of the crazy and beautiful book 'Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry' by BS Johnson. Near the end of a book which plays with the limitations and conventions of novel-writing, the author talks to the eponymous main character, to tell him that he's thinking of killing him off with cancer. Christie agrees to it, saying he never wanted his book to be a Victorian-length novel which no-one will ever read anyway.

So to 7.22:

Apocalyptic battle:

Willow vs Marti Noxon

Xander vs David Fury

Anya vs Jane Espenson

Dawn vs Drew Goddard

Spike vs Doug Petrie

Faith vs Drew Greenberg

And all the authors beat their favourite characters- leaving Buffy to stand alone against:

Joss Whedon

JW: So, Buff, I've said all I wanted to say about female empowerment. Really. You know I think you've lived in this crazy world long enough. And, after all when you take away all your friends,

[writers leave with gagged other characters]

what have you got left?

B: Me.

And it's sword fight time. Except Joss writes Buffy's sword to split in half.

JW: An odd dichotomy, y'know. Fictional yet rebelling against your own creator.

B: Oh, so this is the Biggest Bad of them all, hey? What comes after a God? You are my maker? Come on. I've heard more likely stories from your one-time writer Tracey Forbes.

JW: Hey, there was nothing wrong with Tracey Forbes!

B: Do you know what we used to say when we had a really bad week. It must be a Noxon. Consistency of fortune in your writing staff wasn't exactly the best now, was it?

JW: [a little cowed]. Yeah, but I bet you loved the Espensons, no?

B: True. Anyway, you're distractin me. I'm trying to kill you.

JW: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the end of the series

And as Buffy leaps into a slaying manoeuvre, the camera pulls out and out, (a little like the end shot in Men in Black), until we can see all of Sunnydale. And then it slowly contracts into a small dot in the centre of the screen.

Grrrr. Aaaaggggh


[> [> [> My own metafictional finale (Spoilers 7.22!) -- cjl, 16:22:18 11/14/02 Thu

(Buffy leaps through the dimensional portal, looking behind her one last time to see the agonized faces of Willow, Dawn, Xander, Giles, and Spike. The portal closes. She looks around. She seems to be in an office. Peering through the darkness, she sees a man (his back to her) typing at his computer. Buffy is confused.

BUFFY (to typist): Excuse me?
JOSS: Hold on a minute. Gotta catch up here.

(Buffy wanders over to the desk, and starts reading the words on the screen. She reads: "Buffy wanders over to the desk, and starts reading the words on the screen.")

JOSS: There we go. All done. Finally.
BUFFY: "All done?"
JOSS (swivels his chair to face her): The series. The pain. It's over. (Laughs.) I don't have to do it anymore. Gotta tell you, it's a relief. Although...
BUFFY: W-what are you talking about?
JOSS (takes her hand): It's all right, Buffy. You don't have to worry. All the pain in your life--your Mom and Angel and Spike and the Slaying, and worrying about your friends. It's done.
BUFFY: Wait. How do you--
JOSS: When you were seven years old, you accidentally cut yourself playing with your father's razor blade. You cried and cried, and before your Mom got there, you wondered, what kind of a God would make a world where there would be this kind of pain?
BUFFY (withdraws her hand): How did you know that?
JOSS: And when you were fifteen, when you were first called, you were in that cemetary in Los Angeles, squeezing that pathetic-looking stake in your hand, and you had a horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach that God was singling you out for punishment...
BUFFY: Shut up.
JOSS: I wasn't punishing you.

(Buffy steps back, a lump of revulsion and utter horror forming in her throat.)

JOSS (shakes his head): You're amazing. You're so much more than I imagined you'd be. (Laughs again.) Sarah would absolutely freak if she knew you were here.

(BUFFY, terrified, looks around the office, her eyes adjusting to the dark. She sees posters of herself with the logo "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on top. She sees a photo on Joss' desk. It's her, Xander, Willow, Giles, Anya, Dawn and Spike. The signature is her handwriting, but the name signed is "Sarah." She sees a paperback book on the desk, but barely registers the title before she sees, in small print: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer--created by Joss Whedon.")

BUFFY: This is impossible.
JOSS: No. This was inevitable. You've been fighting evil for so long, you've suffered so much--I think I owed it to you. To see who was responsible for it all. The Biggest Bad of them all, you might say. "Big Bad." (Laughs.) Who came up with that, anyway?
BUFFY: Are you--are you telling me you CREATED me? You're telling're GOD?!
JOSS: I don't believe in God. (Pause.) Funny, though. The existentialists say that once we've eliminated the divine from our lives, we assume--
BUFFY: What am I doing here? If you are...who you say you are, w-why did you take me away from my friends? Why did you
take me away from my sister? M-my mother? WHY?

(Joss looks into Buffy's eyes, sees the tears and the pain, and quickly looks away.)

JOSS: It's complicated.
BUFFY: That's my line.
JOSS: So it is. But it's still the truth.
BUFFY: Then explain it to me.

(JOSS leans forward in his chair, carefully considering his words.)

JOSS: As much as I hate to say this to you, Buffy, you're just a fictional character. A fictional character who's gone so far beyond my original idea...sometimes it seems you're not even mine anymore. But you are. And as much as I love you, you've had to play your part in what I have to say to the rest of the world. About all the crap we face while we're growing up. How we deal with the death of parents or loved ones. How we overcome the obstacles we create for ourselves, how...
BUFFY: I think I get the idea.
JOSS (smiles): You want to kill me right now, don't you?
BUFFY: Very much.
JOSS: Well, don't. As I said, I owe you for everything I've put you through for the last seven years. I wanted to do you one last favor before I let you go.
BUFFY: A favor?
JOSS: You can pick your ending. You go through the dimensional portal, and you disappear, and then...something happens. I'm leaving it up to you.
BUFFY: You're kidding me. Now? After all the pain and suffering and blood, you're letting me choose NOW?! What do I want? I want my mother back, that's what I want! I want you put me back in high school and take away that stupid curse from Angel, that's what I want!
JOSS: I can't do that.
BUFFY: Why not?! You're g--oh, wait. You don't believe in God.
JOSS: And if I did? Deus ex machina--God snaps his fingers and all the problems go away. What does that tell the people in this world about life? There's pain and horror at this end of the telescope, too, Buffy. There are monsters that scare the living hell out of us every day, monsters without fangs or horns or claws. When you and Giles were waiting for Billy Fordham to rise out of his grave, you told Giles--
BUFFY: Lie to me.
JOSS: You wouldn't let him. And I'm not going to lie, either. I'm not going to snap my fingers and make your life a paradise.
BUFFY (thinks hard): I can't go back to Sunnydale?
JOSS: No. The series is over.
BUFFY: It wasn't cancelled, was it?
JOSS: Nope. Could have gone on forever. But I think everybody was getting a little winded after seven years.
BUFFY: Oh. That's cool. Always good to go out on top. (Pause. Buffy smiles.) Wait. I think I've got it. (Leans over and whispers in Joss' ear.)
JOSS: Really? OK, not exactly what I would have wanted, but...(looks into Buffy's eyes) It's the least I can do.

JOYCE: Doctor, thank you. It's a miracle.
DOCTOR: Mrs. Summers, you don't have to thank me. Buffy did all the work herself. She's really a remarkable young woman.
HANK: We never gave up hope. (Nuzzles Buffy's chin.) Never.
DOCTOR: Give me a call when she's settled. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but we should have follow-up sessions at least once every month.
JOYCE: We'll contact you next week.

(Joyce, Hank and Buffy walk out of the asylum and into the parking lot. Buffy is holding her father's hand tightly as they approach the family car.)

HANK: Well, sweetheart, you're going home. How do you feel?
BUFFY: It feels wonderful, Daddy.
JOYCE (hesitantly): Do you miss Sunnydale at all?
BUFFY: A little... No. A lot. But it's just like the doctor said--Sunnydale is a delusion. (Joyce and Hank get into the car.) Not MY delusion...

(BUFFY climbs into the back seat, and the Summers family drives onto the streets of Los Angeles.)

[> [> [> [> Wonderful and beautiful and no, no, no... heartbreaking. -- yez, 06:32:47 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wonderful and beautiful and no, no, no... heartbreaking. -- SKPE, 07:16:38 11/15/02 Fri

Wasn’t that the way they ended 'moonlighting' with the sets being torn down and the characters desperately suggesting plot lines to the authors to keep the show going

[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't know, but... -- yez, 07:54:25 11/15/02 Fri

I think the Cosby Show ended with Claire and Cliff dancing off the set and into the sound stage and you could see the studio audience.

And this kind of thing would definitely be fodder for a Twilight Zone ep., particularly if the character were to triumph and kill the creator, leaving the path open for the franchise to continue.

Sheesh, wouldn't it be creepy if Buffy were to *win* that fight? After all, she beats everyone -- why not Joss?

I saw an ep. of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys where the writers, played by the same actors that play characters on the show, were breaking a story or something, and somehow the characters come through and... I don't know, they demanded certain storylines or something, not sure.

And there was an ep. of Xena: Warrior Princess where one of the creators appeared as himself, being pitched the idea for the show which was supposed to have been based on ancient scrolls found on a dig.

And weren't there some Warner Bros. cartoons where we see the illustrator drawing the characters, and the characters interacting with the illustrator?

Man... I watch altogether too much TV...


[> [> Buffy meets Joss? -- HonorH, 00:13:26 11/15/02 Fri

Why do I get the feeling Joss would end up unconscious rather quickly?

[> [> The characters -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 09:10:46 11/15/02 Fri

In a sense, it's happened already.

Like Superman, Sherlock Holmes, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and others, the character(s) have escaped their creators.

We as fans will perpetuate the Buffyverse long after Joss hangs it up. Perhaps without the brilliance, but with durability.

[> [> [> Pirandello and characters living on after the creator -- cjl, 09:45:12 11/15/02 Fri

In Luigi Pirandello's immortal play, "Six Characters in Search of an Author," the title individuals "raid" the rehearsal of a bad play (not coincidentally, another Pirandello play!) and demand that the actors ditch what they were doing and act out the characters' own, more compelling story.

"Six Characters" asks many fascinating questions and makes a number of interesting points, among them the durability of certain archetypes in humanity's collective consciousness, and how, sometimes, these archetypes seem more "real" than our own daily lives. Buffy and her crew were deliberately created by Joss to fit one of those archetypes, the myth of the hero's journey (I will spare everyone the usual Campbell- ian blather), which unquestionably resonates with everyone on this board.

Given that, Buffy and the Scoobies may have escaped Joss and ME, but they haven't escaped us and never will. We are surely part of their creation, their continuing life, as much as the writers and the production staff and they are predestined to be molded according to our whims.

At the end of Breakfast of Champions, author Kurt Vonnegut appears before Kilgore Trout and sets Trout and the rest of the characters free. The act of liberation is a generous one, but it's clear that Vonnegut is doing it for himself more than his characters--allowing their stories to end, so he can concentrate on new ones, in a new phase of his life. Maybe we should stop trying to keep Buffy and the rest of the gang alive at the end of the series (fanfic, etc.) and simply draw inspiration from their story in our own lives.

[> Kind of OT: Adam Warlock and Magus -- Mystery, 13:24:33 11/14/02 Thu

I think I might be mixing things up, but I thought that Magus was created when Adam possessed the Infinity Gaunlet and purged all the good and evil from his soul, making him a truly just being, and making him better able to chose the Guardians of the Infinity Gems.
Magus was supposed to be the evil part of Adam Warlock, and The Goddess was good part. Both parts we insane because they were unbalanced. Magus tried to use the infinity gaunlet to make everyone evil in the "Infinity Wars" limited series and in the "Infinity Crusade" Limited Series, the Goddess decided that existance was too corrupted and tried to engulf everybody in "Rapture" and in essense destroy the universe using The Cosmic Egg (a fusion of all the Cosmic Cubes in existance) (kind of reminiscent of Willow decided to take away everyone's pain by killing them).

Or were there two different Magus-es? I'm thinking that might be the case...I never knew much of Adam Warlock beyond the "Infinity Crusade."

[> [> Re: Kind of OT: Adam Warlock and Magus -- Thomas the Skeptic, 14:04:23 11/14/02 Thu

Actually, the events you are describing happened much later in Marvel History. The first encounters between Adam and the Magus occured in the late 1970's in the ( now classic ) 2nd run of Adam's comic called simply "Warlock". "The Infinity Gauntlet" stories took place in the mid- to late eighties, if I'm not mistaken ( honestly, even though Starlin was involved with these I did'nt think they were as good as the earlier books. Not the same sense of mystical and metaphysical wonder, IMO ).

Bloody Foreshadowing (Spoilers for CwDP) -- LeeAnn, 13:08:39 11/14/02 Thu

I finally rewatched CwDP this morning and one thing I noticed was Dawn, her mouth dripping with blood, and a minute later, Spike, his mouth dripping with blood. Makes me wonder if D'Yawn is about to get vamped and have her mouth full of blood again.

It was a bloody episode. Dawn's blood in her mouth. Spike's mouth full of the girl's blood. Jonathan as a bloody sacrifice, his blood filling the pentagram. Blood spattered on the walls of the Summer's home. The Vampire Psyc Major trying to get Buffy's blood. Cassie/FE trying to get Willow to open a vein and spill her own blood.

SPIKE: "Cause it's always got to be blood. Blood is life... Why do you think we eat it? It's what keeps you going. Makes you warm. Makes you hard. Makes you other than dead. (quietly) Course it's her blood."

Blood signifies…life? Or just part of the Heart Symbolism for the season?

The FE seems to have the typical BB's interest in blood.

[> Heart symbolism (sp 7.7) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:00:41 11/14/02 Thu

Yes, I'm with you on the link to the Season of the Heart. I sometimes think I've jumped on Shadowkat's band-wagon slightly too enthusiastically, however, and that I'm starting to see the little schematic in everything.

So here's a question. In the bloodiest episode of the Season to date, (even if STSP was pretty gory), why do we not see our champion of heart, Xander, at all? Maybe the spilling of blood, the imbalance in circulatory systems, the inability to talk to anyone real throughout the episode shows a lack, a failure of heart. And Xander's exclusion symbolises that. Or maybe Nicholas Brendon was on holiday. Or maybe Xander is dead from Spike in a cupboard. And we have Cassie, who had aterminal failure of heart, as one of the spokesman

This episode has caused so many questions, and so few answers. But deep down we love it.


[> [> Re: Heart symbolism (sp 7.7) -- imp (newbie; de-lurking again; spec about 7.8?), 15:01:31 11/14/02 Thu

Since my first posting attempt went OK yesterday, I thought I'd give it another shot. I consider myself unspoiled, except for a quick glance at the trailer for next week's episode.

This question is for you or anyone else reading: (hope my tags work)

In general, does it appear that next week's episode picks up right where CWDP leaves off? (A yes or no response is sufficient for me.)

If it does, then we may yet see Xander (and Anya). However, I have a feeling we will not. Again, being unspoiled, I am probably wrong. But just wondering...

[> [> Re: Where the Heart Is? -- Philistine, 23:46:54 11/14/02 Thu

I haven't had time to go through all the posts in the archive since Tuesday, so I don't know if anyone else has posted along this line. I *have* noticed, though, a couple of people questioning the conspicuous lack of Xander in the episode. Good question. I've been wondering about the same thing.

Then, suddenly, I had a thought. I thought back to some interesting posts made here over the past week or two, discussing how Xander has been central to the eventual solution in several episodes this season. And then I thought about 'Conversations With Dead People,' and how nothing was solved in this episode - if anything, the end of the ep left the Scoobs worse off than they were a week ago.

I don't know what if anything it might mean - it's very late, I'm very tired, I've never been big on "meaning" anyway, and it may be that I'm just thinking way too much. But it seemed... funny.

[> [> [> More heart symbolism (I told you I'm obsessed) -- Tchaikovsky, 02:46:09 11/15/02 Fri

So Xander is the Heart of the Gang, and the heart solves the problems this season, until it fails at the end.


Season Five: Giles, the Mind, is boss. He fails in the end because the logical conclusion is to kill Dawn. Buffy saves the day with spirit.

Season Six: Willow, the Spirit is boss. She fails in the end because her spirits are not modified by emotions. Xander saves the day with heart

Season Seven: Xander has solved many of the problems of the Season to date. And it appears that when he is away, the problems start happening, as you have mentioned. When the heart is out of the picture, the problems are left without the resolution brought by the integral part of the Gang for this Season.


There's to be a failure of heart, to be redeemed by Buffy, hand, and so complete the circle. Watch this space.

TCH- who will keep arguing this point ad nauseam if given a chance

[> Yessss....110v3w1110w -- LeeAnn, 19:07:46 11/14/02 Thu

And as 110v3w1110w pointed out above, the "Mother's milk is red" written on the wall is blood is more foreshadowing of Dawn getting vamped.

Or Joss is trying to fool us.

Yo! ATPOBTVS got praise on BuffyRadio! -- Harry Parachute, 13:11:13 11/14/02 Thu

Listen to their latest episode. A little over halfway in, all y'all get the mad stupid-fresh props like a blazing herd of cattle.

Ph3or the Filossipi.

[> Transcript? -- Masq, 13:16:46 11/14/02 Thu

Is this "Buffy radio" the Succubus Club?

[> [> Uh...I...dunno what the SC is. *shrug* -- Harry Parachute, 13:19:26 11/14/02 Thu

But this Buffyradio is done by the guys at

[> [> [> There's also a "radio buffy" ... -- ZachsMind, 14:17:52 11/14/02 Thu

I found a german website somewhere that one person in's discussion board was accusing the Slackstreet gang of stealing from. That's not true. The Radio Buffy gang speak in german. I doubt the slackstreet gang can speak or understand german. So there's three different things like this going on, including the Sucubbus Club which is okay but that one girl's voice is way too scratchy in an annoying (uh, but lovable!) way. She needs a coughdrop.

As for a 'transcript', I'm listening to the BuffyRadio mp3 for this week right now and when it gets to that point I'll try to post something about it in here.

[> [> Re: Transcript? -- ponygirl, 14:14:49 11/14/02 Thu

Ok, I was in the midst of something really BORING here at work so I put on my headphones and had a listen. The radio show appears to be a group of people discussing the latest episodes. It was kind of fun, it reminded me of get- togethers with my Buffy-watching pals, except for two important points: a) I couldn't jump in and correct people; and b)I wasn't drinking. The last was sorely missed. As I said it's boring here at work.

Here's the bit on the site:

"I’ve got to give a plug to a site called All Things Philosophical on BtVS and AtS...

It’s a website that actually explores all the moral and ethical and psychological – it’s like somebody’s thesis, it is really a brilliant site."

They then discuss the thread on Who Is Spike Now, and what makes a person. Obviously the person speaking had read the thread pretty extensively and the discussion went off from there into multiple personalities and the like.

Anyone want to reveal themselves as one of these Buffyradio people? It seems like a cool site.

[> [> [> Another reference -- Masq, 14:32:07 11/14/02 Thu

I'm listening to it now, too, and they talk about how ATPo will have a "field day":

It goes something like, "They're [ATPo] going to have a field day with that because she [Buffy] just now outed the whole Dr. Sigmund vampire Freud."

I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean we are/I am going to go to town on Holden's conclusions about Buffy or Buffy's conclusions about herself? Or have something insightful to say about psychoanalysis or therapy? Or Freud?

Gee, the pressure's on!

[> [> [> [> Wow ! Mise en abyme -- Etrangere, 14:45:08 11/14/02 Thu

We're listening to them listening to us... it's weird. We don't know yet what we gonna sayd and they're already predicting what it's gonna be ?
Now we gonna feel all self-counscious while writing posts.

[> [> [> [> [> Comment se dit "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" en Francais? -- Sophomorica, chewing on her French dictionary, 15:03:49 11/14/02 Thu

Ok, I'm just curious. You have probably answered such before. And what is "abyme"?

[> [> [> [> [> [> "Buffy contre les Vampires" -- Ete, 15:09:18 11/14/02 Thu

which is an ever more kitch name than Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Slayer is translated by "Tueuse", which does not keep well the nuance between murder and slaying, but what would you have.
"mise en abyme" is an expression i didn't know how to translate. For exemple a picture where we see a guy drawing a picture where we see a guy drawing a picture where we see... etc is a "mise en abyme".
Usually "abyme" means the "abyss" or the "pit".

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> oooh...Thank You! -- Sophomorica, 15:15:27 11/14/02 Thu

French seems to be full of little sayings that don't translate very well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> mise en abyme -- Slain, 15:30:18 11/14/02 Thu

I think we'd say "Picture within a picture", but I'm sure there's a better phrase.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about "viscious circle"? -- pr10n, 17:20:31 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Another reference -- Slain, 15:02:41 11/14/02 Thu

Well, I for one am going to resist the urge to start a thread called "Let's have a field day about Buffy's outing the whole Sigmund vampire Freud".

Actually I'm not quite sure what they mean. My first thought is that parallels between vampirism and Freud's theories about the Id and all that (not a big Freud fan, here), or perhaps we'll have a field day because the show has acknowledged the value of psychoanalysis.

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe it's about Buffy's offing the one person she told everything about herself -- Etrangere, 15:05:55 11/14/02 Thu

It's very "I could tell you my secret but then you would have to die" and correlates with the vampires asking her if she's angry because he tried to kill her or because she opened up to him.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe it's about Buffy's offing the one person she told everything about herself -- Sang, 15:28:00 11/14/02 Thu

Well, she finally confessed about her problem with her friends and Spike. Then she had to kill him. Does it nullify the confession itself?

[> [> [> [> [> Well, psychoanalysis makes great drama -- DickBD, 15:11:31 11/14/02 Thu

As with SPELLBOUND (a movie of about 52 years ago), but it is a flawed science. In fact, it is not even science because it is not falsifiable. But the episode was cute, with Buffy lying on the "couch" and getting psychotherapy from a newly- created vampire. Technically speaking, it wasn't really psychoanalysis since Buffy wasn't just "free associating" without comment from the analyst. Great episode though, with lots of questions to answer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly -- Masq, 15:28:42 11/14/02 Thu

That's the comment I was going to make, that it was pretty much your standard therapy session, not of the psychoanalytic variety at all. There's no deep Freudian subtext here, except perhaps the interesting angle that Buffy can be more open with her feelings with the unsouled undead than with her friends (both Spike and Holden), and that she kills her therapist at the end of the session.

With a stake.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Success! -- DickBD, 16:11:57 11/14/02 Thu

I feel like a student with a gold star on my forehead if I get a response from you, Masq! (And that is from a retired biology teacher and former principal.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmm....would that be considered a breakthrough?....;) -- Rufus, 16:19:16 11/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> Partial Transcipt of BuffyRadio INSIDE here. -- ZachsMind, 15:25:09 11/14/02 Thu

I'm not one of the BuffyRadio people, but when I can I try to be online when they do their show and kibitz at them through AOL Instant Messenger (I use which I highly recommend). I also post to their message board occasionally and have a generally good time with them. A real nice bunch of people. And I apologize ahead of time. In the context of BuffyRadio, I still haven't been able to keep track of whose name goes with which voice? I'm terrible with names & voices much less faces, so what follows is just "MALE VOICE 1" or whatever.

Anyway, here's what I heard from the CWDP episode of their mp3 talk radio thingy.

MALE VOICE 1: "Okay when we come back there were two other storylines here. Buffy getting psychoanalyzed (laughs) by a former y'know classmate which I don't think was anything more than just to have Buffy open up and the psychology angle. I tell ya All things Philosophical About Buffy website--"

FEMALE VOICE: "To reveal exposition as my television criticism teacher would say--"

MALE VOICE 1: "Yes. They're gonna have a field day with that because she just now outted the whole y'know Doctor Sigmund Vampire Freud! (female voice laughs) And of course we got the whole Spike action going on, which wasn't a lot but a very important part of the story..."

[They go for a break and come back.. I'm skipping a bit including a cool special moment with Mugsy and bananas.]

MALE VOICE 1: "I did my homework! Because it's my job."

FEMALE VOICE: "Good for you!"

MALE VOICE 1: "I gotta give a plug to a site called All Things Philosophical About Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series and I think the website is, y'know I think you can search for it and if you're a Buffy fan you probably have been to this site but it's a website that actually explores all the moral and ethical and psychal-- I just-- all the -- I mean it's like somebody's thesis! It is really a brilliant site! And in this site I --this Spike thing cuz I already knew what was gonna happen, really intrigued me a lot here. And the question of who is Spike now? And there's this HUGE discussion about are- what makes a person? Is it your memories? Is it your soul? What is it that y'know makes you who you are? If you have none of your memories and you have the memories of someone else, does that make you the same person that you were? I would agree with the fact that no it doesn't. Because you are who you're been built up over y'know your entire life. So he is a few people. Uh, y'know he is William the Bloody and they also do great comparisons between him and Angel because a lot of this stuff has already been addressed before y'know you had Angel. You had well you had Liam. Then you had Angel. Then you had Angeles and now you've got this new kind of soul no soul back to soul again. He-- I-I'm very surprised that you said the he could only be affected by the chip depending on the type of person he is. He's still a demon. He still has a need for blood.

MALE VOICE 2: Well I'm talking about the personality not necessarily the person he is. I'm talking about which era of personality he is. William the Bloody--

MALE VOICE 1: Well that would also be the person though if you think about it and the chip might be affected by that.

MALE VOICE 3: And keep in mind as far as I can tell the chip is looking for certain types of agressive behavior and it activates based on those behaviors.

MALE VOICE 2: Well yeah. But!

MALE VOICE 1: Could those come..

Okay I'm stopping there cuz obviously they're done talking about

[> [> [> [> Oh, and the BuffyRadio Scorecard is in HERE.. -- ZachsMind, 15:40:39 11/14/02 Thu

MALE VOICE 1 is Eric
MALE VOICE 2 is Josh
MALE VOICE 3 is Mike

How helpful is that? Actually I might have Josh & Mike backwards. And of course Mugsy was played by himself.

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