November 2002 posts

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The Seal -- Shinzon, 22:06:28 11/14/02 Thu

Okay somebody told me that the design of the seal was seen on one of the books of the convenant that ruled pylea so is this true?

[> Probably not. (spoilers) -- Apophis, 22:11:51 11/14/02 Thu

Some people think the ram's head indicates the involvement of Wolfram and Hart (wolf, ram, and hart [archaic term for a deer]), since in Pylea, some of the spell books had the animal heads on them. This isn't the case. I have it on good authority that the Sunnydale and LA apocalypses are two seperate events. No lawfirm involvement in the 'dale.

We have a new record! (WARNING: boring, archive related stuff) -- d'Herblay, 23:44:00 11/14/02 Thu

After deadly combat with our Voynok demon tonight, Masq was finally able to come away with this week's downloaded archives intact. It's my turn to archive this month, so I sit down to index them, and the threads filed under "11-13" just grow and grow. Thirty-one separate threads were begun on November thirteenth. I scent a record in the making, so I check the a rchives; sure enough, the most threads ever started the day after an episode of Buffy was twenty-eight on March 13, 2002, the day after "Normal Again." (This was a very unscientific survey: I worked under the assumption that the day after a new episode of Buffy airs is the day this board gets the most traffic; I don't have access to the October 2002 archives, so no checking recent statistics; I didn't even check all the episodes, just the ones I thought were likely, and I am firm in my assumption that no one really talks about Angel.) For comparison purposes, we have 25 surviving threads that were started the day after "Two to Go"/"Grave" aired, 20 from each of the days after "Seeing Red" and "Villains," 19 from the day after "Bargaining," 13 on the day after "The Gift," 12 after "Lessons," and 11 each after "Afterlife" and "Once More with Feeling."

So kudos to Drew and Jane for provoking such discussion, and kudos to the ATPo denizens for continuing to think at a rate that is now quantified as too much!

[> I'm not gonna say it. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:29:59 11/15/02 Fri

But I've got a feeling that someone, somwhere on this board, is going to chew you out for the Angel comment. Just giving you fair warning.

[> [> 'Older' posters know he's just teasing Masq. -- CW, 04:43:57 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> Re: I'm not gonna say it. . . -- Masq, 06:44:38 11/15/02 Fri

d'Horrible can just stay in his giddy little alterno- universe where no one talks about Angel. In the mean time, the rest of us will talk. And talk. And talk.

And d'Herb can just sit and do archives.


[> [> [> go, masq! i love the angel threads... -- marie, 08:30:42 11/15/02 Fri

...reading them, that is, not writing them!

marie - still in a cast, ergo the lower case, though i can just about manage a couple of exclamation marks, if needs be!

[> [> [> [> marie!! -- Masq, 09:05:21 11/15/02 Fri

Good to hear from you! We've been missing you on the board! Hope your recovery is proceeding a pace!

[> [> [> [> [> thank you, and happy birthday, from me, too... -- marie, 17:53:28 11/15/02 Fri

...i can't tell you how much i've missed everyone, board- wise and trollop-wise - it'll take foreeeever to catch up, dammit.... though trolling the threads is easier than typing these left-handed messages! not to mention cleaning my teeth and brushing my hair and getting me and my kid dressed and undressed.

ah, well, shouldn't whinge, seeing as it was my own stupid fault I broke my wrist, so i'll sign off with have a brilliant birthday on sunday - may everything you wish for be yours.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, that's sweet! -- Masq, 22:02:14 11/15/02 Fri

All I want for my birthday is a big honkin' cliff-hanger episode of my favorite show.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what's gonna happen! Wee!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly after this Sunday don't expect another Angel ep til the New Year -- Rufus, 00:16:00 11/16/02 Sat

[> GMTA -- Sophist, 08:32:26 11/15/02 Fri

On the way into work this morning, I was thinking about HH's comment many threads below about how busy the Board has been lately. (Further evidence, I suppose, about the status of my life.) Anyway, my subjective impression was to respond "HH, you should have seen the Board last Spring." You've now proved there have been more threads recently, so I'm wrong by that measure; how about more posts?

Of course, in order to settle this definitively, what we really need is a word count..... That would give you something to do while Masq is discussing that boring other show. But if we could get Masq to do the count, we'd get our definitive answer and leave more space on the Board for the really important show. Heh heh.

[> [> Masq's too busy watching "Angel" to do any boring old count... -- The First Evil, 09:10:11 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> Interesting how some people... -- yabyumpan, 09:25:36 11/15/02 Fri

have nothing better to do than sort out the archives and think about board numbers, maybe the 'other' show isn't occupying their minds enough!!!

Of course, if they were to turn to WB on a sunday night......


[> [> [> [> C'mon people, you know that I know that there is a difference between *quantity* and *quality* -- d'Herblay, 12:37:23 11/15/02 Fri

I mean, really, I talk about Angel more than I talk about Buffy (though, to be honest, I don't talk about either all that much). My "Meet the Posters" picture is Wesley; strangely (and it is sort of strange) enough, my girlfriend's is Lilah. However, it is well known that Buffy provokes more discussion, and that a large contingent of posters here treat Angel as the older show's redheaded stepchild. So, with Sophie's earlier statistics also in mind, when I went looking for days of unusually high activity, I naturally concentrated on the days following new episodes of Buffy. I would love for there to be more discussion following Angel (and I think the move to Sunday night has allowed there to be much more before we get swamped under Buffy threads), but as a matter of counting, I stand by my assertion that Angel is discussed less.

[> [> [> [> [> Yes, N, T and L -- Slain, 13:11:11 11/15/02 Fri

I honestly would like to discuss Angel more - but by the time I've downloaded the latest episode, it's usually time to download Buffy already, and by that time the Angel threads have been consumed by Buffy the WB Slayer. Plus, to be honest, I just don't have that much to say about Angel, like it as much as I do.

Also, I'd like to point out that the quote "I'm gonna beat you like a red-headed stepchild" comes from 'Bad Eggs', having just spend the past few minutes trying to remember where I'd heard the phrase 'red-headed stepchild' before!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: C'mon people, you know that I know that there is a difference between *quantity* and *quality* -- Masq, 13:24:38 11/15/02 Fri

"I stand by my assertion that Angel is discussed less"

That's just a matter of factual observation, d'H

But it's my board, and I'll pout if I want to...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Channeling Leslie Gore? Now that's truly evil. -- Sophist, 13:48:21 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You wanna know what's really evil? -- Masq, 13:58:42 11/15/02 Fri

Having that Leslie Gore song going around and around in your head in the middle of a work day.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL - - Sophist, 14:27:03 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> There, there now.... -- Masq, 14:38:17 11/15/02 Fri

"though, to be honest, I don't talk about either all that much"

And he wonders why he doesn't get quoted on the main site! You gotta play to win!

"My "Meet the Posters" picture is Wesley; strangely (and it is sort of strange) enough, my girlfriend's is Lilah."

Did anyone just go to a scary visual place?

"I know that there is a difference between *quantity* and *quality*"

And that is so very the point. So many of the deluge of Buffy threads are the same point made over and over again by different people who don't bother to read down the board or look in the archives. Many of them are one- or two-post threads that get quickly archived. And many of them are just about a new wrinkle in Spike's leather coat.


[> [> Archive statistics -- Sophie, 09:44:31 11/15/02 Fri

I find archive stats to be quite interesting and actually do research and some stats work at work. I don't know what tools Voy has to help crunch data (number threads per day, number posts per day, number posts per thread, etc), but I crunched some data of the sort once before, if you remember. I would be interested in doing more simply because I am curious, though bear in mind that I am a grad student (this status will fortunately end next May) and sometimes get swamped with homework.


[> [> [> OT to Sophie -- tim, 10:03:57 11/15/02 Fri

I'm curious as to your field of study and where you're in school. As a fellow graduate student (political science, Ohio State) on the way out next spring, I'm always happy to find a kindred spirit.

BTW, I read your post on the summary stats of the board a couple of months ago. Fascinating stuff! :)


[> [> [> [> Re: OT to Sophie -- Sophie, 10:16:26 11/15/02 Fri

I'm getting a Masters of Urban Planning at New York University.

My undergrad was in architecture. And I am currently doing research (housing/urban planning related), which I really enjoy.


(OT) Leonard Roberts' new movie DRUMLINE!! -- neaux, 04:50:31 11/15/02 Fri

Someone mentioned this week who played Forrest Gates Riley's Buddy.

Well its Leonard Roberts and his new movie trailer for DRUMLINE can be seen at!

The movie looks like a "Bring it On" type movie.. but good none the less. and using your drumsticks like a cross is Very Buffyesque!

A Sluggy Buffy send up....if anyone is interested -- ahira, 06:06:05 11/15/02 Fri

There is an onling comic strip called Sluggy Freelance ( I read it every day and have enjoyed it quite a bit. It has been ongoing for 5 years. One of the recurring characters on the strip is Sam and during an earlier story arc, he was vamped. After that story arc ended, he traveled a bit and ended up in California. There he encountered Muffin the Vampire Baker. It is only a couple of strips but kinda funny. Muffin and the Scooby gang rushing into combat with an oven, spices and cookbook. Sam, being the ladies man that he thinks he is, tries to get in good with Muffin by telling her you can kill vampires with a stake through the heart. Naturally, all the other vampires get quite upset with him. The strip is pretty good and I recommend giving it a try. I don't have an exact date to look for on this little bit, but am pretty sure it is shortly after the Lysinda Circle arc if you want to look for it. I am off to work now, but I can try and find the date for that when I get home tonight.

[> was supposed to be in the buffy joke thread...hmmm -- ahira, 06:07:38 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> Sluggy rules! Go read Sluggy you people! -- grifter, 06:18:23 11/15/02 Fri

No, really, it´s hilarious, and it somehow manages to balance long and intriguing story-lines with having to have a three-column-strip with an end-gag every day.

Buffy gets a New Friend on UPN; Haunted goes bye-bye -- neaux, 08:45:52 11/15/02 Fri

Here's the story on the new UPN schedule for tuesday nites.

link tostory

lets hope this link worked

[> I like the programme being called 'Buffy the Vampire'. Very misleading -- Tchaikovsky, 08:58:37 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> Re: I like the programme being called 'Buffy the Vampire'. Very misleading -- Deb, 09:15:24 11/15/02 Fri

Couldn't get the link, but I'm not surprised Haunted was ousted. It never did grab my attention. Personally, I would like to watch Buffy later in the evening, say 9:00 cst. This 7:00 really puts a crimp into my anti-social lifestyle.

Okay, I'm sitting her wondering how it would feel to morph to vamp face. My head hurts so much right now that I believe I am experiencing sympathy morphing pain for Spike . . . oh . . . even that name hurts.

[> [> [> So let me get this straight... -- ZachsMind, 09:47:08 11/15/02 Fri

As a program to follow Buffy, they're replacing an unsuccessful scary show that's not funny, with an allegedly funny show that's not scary.

And they wonder why they can't get decent ratings at the UPN? Idiots.

[> [> [> [> Too bad it can't be followed by AtS as it was meant to be. -- Rob, 10:39:41 11/15/02 Fri

[> Must be avoiding genre so as not to compete w/Smallville -- darrenK, 10:50:17 11/15/02 Fri

[> its not the time slot thats the problem -- 110v3w1110w, 11:18:40 11/15/02 Fri

when they realise that the time slot isn't the problem but its the god awful crap than they show that is losing them viewers they might invest in some new talent to write some good programs that are nothing like the bland Hitler-youth utopia inspired shows like roswell and dawsons creek and then they may get the ratings back

[> [> Re: its not the time slot thats the problem -- kurse the Tormented, 11:44:59 11/15/02 Fri

Hmm.. if UPN was smart.. they would spend some dough.. and buy some of that slumping Marvel Stock and do some Versions of Young Ben Riley...

OR... hows about a Young Scott and Alex Summers?! ;)

[> [> [> If UPN was smart... -- ZachsMind, 12:52:33 11/15/02 Fri

If UPN was smart, they'd spend the dough and do the same media blitz on Buffy the Vampire Slayer's impending apocalypse this season that they did last year when she switched networks. Then they could put reruns of Enterprise on after Buffy and the ratings would still improve. UPN's run by idiots. You heard it here first, folks!

"Back to the Beginning" - S7/S1 parallels (spoilers for all aired S7 eps, and unspoiled future spec) -- KdS, 11:07:51 11/15/02 Fri

On the surface the rumours about S7 echoing S1 have been false. As I'm sure we're all glad, the mess at the end of S6 hasn't just been swept under the rug (beyond the mystery of Buffy's finances) and the show hasn't just regressed to jolly monster bashing. On the other hand...

We have a morally ambiguous souled vamp who may not be trustworthy.

We have a nerdy but sympathetic character murdered horribly just has he was seeming to develop (Jonathon = Flutie?) to stop the audience from getting too comfortable.

We have a menacing but relatively powerless BB who does most of his/her/its work through human or undead tools.

We have strong implications that the emotional core of the series will be about strength through friendship, with relatively little explicit romantic relationship stuff.

OK, if my suspicions are correct...

Spike won't be evil (OK, contradicting another post I made below, but who cares...) but framed or manipulated.

The whole Scooby Gang will be involved in clobbering the BB, but probably through very human ways (especially Xander).

Buffy's going to die, but it will very explicitly be a move to a new stage of existence rather than just "Oops, she's dead".


[> well.. this is a bit much. but here is my 2 cents. -- Kurse the Tormented, 11:21:13 11/15/02 Fri

hmm.. well let me add some things to this.

First off.. I believe IMO that they are grooming Dawn to be the next Slayer (I know about Faith).. she WAS made from Buffy...SMG wont return next season.. though not certain how in the world you can have Buffy the Vampire Slayer WITHOUT Buffy..

I believe that Willow is making an exit as well. So we could actually see the dismantlement of the old Scooby Gang.. with a new version being born. Now whether any of this is true, or just lurker speculation.. who knows.. and if you are offended please disregard all this... and if you disagree please feel free to comment.

[> [> Mystery's insane ramblings and speculations -- Mystery, 12:41:17 11/15/02 Fri

So if the Scoobies are dismantled, and Willow and Buffy leave, would that make Xander Dawn's Watcher? Remember Xander for a while DID want to follow in Giles' footsteps, but was never confident enough in it. In "Restless" he's watching as Giles is "training" Spike to be a Watcher, and he commented he did that once, but he's got a different gig? Maybe now that Xander is no longer direction-less, he would make a good mentor to Dawn. Perhaps if Spike survives all this, he'll be a platonic version of Angel to Dawn.

[> "Back to the Beginning" - S7/S1 parallels (spoilers for all aired S7 eps, and unspoiled future spec) -- Retread, 11:33:06 11/15/02 Fri

"The whole Scooby Gang will be involved in clobbering the BB, but probably through very human ways (especially Xander)."

And possibly Dawn. In the STSP follow-Spike-to-the-cave scene, she offered ideas for non-magical ways to fight demons. While I can't see Dawn, the Vampire Slayer V2.0, I can easily see her taking a bigger role as a Scooby.

[> Re: S7/S1 parallels (spoilers for all aired S7 eps, and future spoilers and speculation) -- bl, 11:35:55 11/15/02 Fri

There are even more parallels with Season 1.

We're back in High School, like Season 1.

All the Scoobies are single, no relationships, not even any serious dating. Like Season 1.

There's a Big Bad trapped under Sunnydale High. Like Season 1.

Dawn went out for cheerleader. Like Buffy did in THE WITCH.

There's a souled vampire hanging around providing information and help but he and Buffy are not together. In fact she's not totally sure if he's good or evil. For a while she didn't even know about his soul. All like Angel in Season 1.

Most of the episodes this season have had themes or monsters from the earlier seasons. HIM was mostly BB&B (plus SOMETHING BLUE). HELP was REPTILE BOY. SAME TIME, SAME PLACE was OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND. CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAD PEOPLE was THE YOKO FACTOR as a BB attempted to manipulate the Scoobies by using someone they knew and trusted.

There are many more parallels but I wonder what this predicts…

Buffy is killed in Season 1 but resuscitated. Not by Angel but by Xander. Will Buffy be killed again...but saved by Xander.

Angel slept with Buffy and turned evil. Spike has slept with Buffy and now it looks like he's turned evil.

Angel lost his soul and became completely evil. Will Spike lose his soul again and become completely evil?

Buffy killed Angel. There's a spoiler saying Buffy tries to kill Spike

Angel attempted to release Acathla and end the world. Will Spike, in some form, attempt to release the First Evil and bring the end of the world?

After Buffy sends Angel to hell he disappears for a while. There are spoilers saying that Spike disappears after Buffy tries to kill him. But he already did the disappearing part when he went to Africa.

Angel returned with his soul but no memory. Buffy cares for him. Will Spike return..with his soul (and without his mind) and be cared for by Buffy? Actually we've already had that part. Spike returned with a soul and mentally damaged. However Buffy hasn't cared for him.

Faith slept with Angel (I think). Will Faith, when she returns, sleep with Spike? She also slept with Xander. Will she again?

Many monsters, themes and scenarios from the early seasons are being recycled...but done differently and in a different order. I think Joss likes to set himself challenges. This season I believe he has set himself the challenge of doing it all again, but with a twist.

[> [> Faith didn't sleep with Angel - he's not that easy. ;) -- Slain, 12:36:22 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Faith didn't sleep with Angel. Are you sure cause I thought he did. -- bl, 17:19:24 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> She didn't. It's explicitly stated. -- HonorH, 18:27:22 11/15/02 Fri

In "Sanctuary," Faith's guilting about Buffy and mentions sleeping with her boyfriend. Angel says something to the effect of, "But we never got that far," before realizing she means Riley.

So no, they didn't.

[> [> Spoiler above. PLEASE label them. -- Sophist, 12:36:54 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> What wasn't labeled? -- Bemusedwoman, 13:18:22 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: What wasn't labeled? (Future spoiler) -- Sophist, 13:45:18 11/15/02 Fri

The following statement and the speculation that follows it:

There are spoilers saying that Spike disappears after Buffy tries to kill him.

[> [> [> [> [> bl's post topic says "future spoilers and speculation" -- Still Bemusedwoman, 13:55:41 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: bl's post topic says "future spoilers and speculation" -- Sarand, 14:00:53 11/15/02 Fri

You're right, it was labeled, but I didn't notice it either when I went from the post above it, dang nabbit. Maybe the spoiler warnings should be in big red flashing letters for those of us who are losing their eyesight. Sigh, I know that people like to post spoilers, I just wish they wouldn't.

[> [> [> [> [> [> You're right. My bad -- I misread the subject line to be the same as KdS's -- Sophist, 14:25:17 11/15/02 Fri

[> Question about trailer for next week's ep... (hopefully no spoilers) -- imp, 14:30:10 11/15/02 Fri

My apologies but this may be off-topic for this thread. Considering some of the posts directly above this one, I apologize now if what I am going to ask below constitutes a spoiler. I want to remain as spoiler-adjacent as possible but I just gotta ask: (scroll to bottom)

Does Xander appear at all in the trailer for next week's episode? A yes, or no, response is sufficient for me.

[> [> If I remember right.... -- Blood Luvin Girl, 14:55:48 11/15/02 Fri


[> [> [> I second that -- Deb, 19:35:13 11/15/02 Fri

Doesn't mean anything though. The trailers are meant to generate interest, and right now many want to know what went on in the final scene. Plus they can throw sex into the pot at the same time.

[> [> Re: Question about trailer for next week's ep... (hopefully no spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 19:45:35 11/15/02 Fri

I just checked out next week's preview on, and we saw Anya, Buffy and shirtless Spike (yum), but no Xander.

Wasn't sure if it was Dawn falling of the catwalk in the Bronze or just some random extra (red shirt).

what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep) -- anom, 11:18:21 11/15/02 Fri

I haven't been able to keep up w/all the posts, so apologies if this has been said already.

In chat after "Conversations w/Dead People," there was disagreement about what we saw after Jonathan was stabbed & fell onto the seal of Danzathar (or however the writers spell it). Some were sure it was blood flowing into the crevices of the seal (although it seemed to come out of his back in large quantities even though there was hardly any bleeding around the knife); at least 1 person insisted it was tentacles coming out of the design in the seal & then receding back into it.

I finally played it back a few times last night, & what it looks like to me is waves of red(dish) energy spreading out from Jonathan's body to the edges of the seal, where they either fade out or sink into it. So I think we saw something magic happening, even though there was no ritual, no spell spoken, & apparently nothing special about the knife Andrew used. It may have been Jonathan's life-energy flowing into whatever the seal...seals, &/or activating something under it.

Last thought: Like most of us, I was shocked & sad to see Jonathan's death. But considering what (or rather who) else we saw in this episode, we may well not have seen the last of him. I wouldn't be surprised to see the "meta-morph" (can't remember who said that, but I like it!) take his form & "warn" Buffy like he thought he was going to...just about the wrong thing.

[> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep) -- Briar Rose, 13:27:08 11/15/02 Fri

Magic(k) doesn't require ritual or special equipment. Only Intent and Focused Energy. I saw exactly what you saw; Jonathan's life force being sucked into the Baphomet to activate/feed/strengthen it.

I also agree that Jonathan could very well come back through the "Ghost Roads" (for lack of a better anaology) and finish what he started. Especially because energy of a spirit who went to their death without completing their mission (and especially if killed violently) often prevents the spirit from passing into the Universe until the mission is completed.

[> [> How Jonathan may come back... (speccy spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 14:43:03 11/15/02 Fri

We know that at one point there was discussion among the writers of bringing back Tara. Unfortunately Amber Benson is not able to participate. So there may be aspects of the plotline which require someone on "The Other Side" to be involved. IF deadJoyce is not yet another manifestation of The Big Evil Thing Eating Bottoms, which I personally suspect, than the writers could utilize Joyce for that purpose. However, if she's a part of the Big Evil, then Jonathan could be used for that purpose.

However, Jonathan was killed by Andrew, who's allegedly being manipulated by The Big Evil through the guise of Warren, so it's more probable that if Jonathan returns, it will be as another mask used by The Big Evil to hide its true self. Either way, Danny Strong is still due a little more screen time.

I just wish they didn't have to sacrifice the character like that. I was hoping eventually he'd find his way in good with the Scoobies. I've always liked Jonathan, pretty much since "Earshot." I guess after the season finale last year, Jonathan the good guy just wasn't meant to be.

[> [> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep) -- Tyreseus, 19:08:54 11/15/02 Fri

Yeah, but if Jonathon did come back as a ghost to warn the Scoobies about the seal, why would they believe him? After Willow's encounter with BBW/Cassie, I don't think they'll be taking the advice from the spirit world without a grain of salt (well, maybe Dawn... we'll have to see how post-CwDP plays out).

[> I agree with what you saw, anom. -- Wisewoman, 13:51:11 11/15/02 Fri

[> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep) -- Sofdog, 15:12:22 11/15/02 Fri

Puncture wounds generally don't bleed until you remove the object. They tell you not to remove the object until you get to the hospital.

[> [> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep) -- Tyreseus, 19:14:28 11/15/02 Fri

Good points about how that "shouldn't" have been blood, but we are kinda dealing with a show where vamps and their clothes turn to dust when staked, someone is able to say "your shirt" after being shot through the chest, and other impossible things take place at the moment of death. So it coulda been just plain old blood in the minds of the writers.

And why couldn't the blood be coming out of Jonthon's back once the magic of the seal was activated? BBW "devours from beneath" after all. Maybe it was devouring?

Being away on a short vacation, I missed all the "Spin the Bottle" threads... -- Rob, 11:43:33 11/15/02 Fri

Nothing deep to add at the moment. Just wanted to know if I was the only one who thought the entire Liam-switiching-back- and-forth-between-vampface-and-humanface scene was one of the funniest things...ever. And, of course, Cordy's reaction regarding what she assumes he's spending so much time in the bathroom doing. I almost hurt myself laughing so hard in that scene.


[> And just what did you think... -- Masq, 11:47:26 11/15/02 Fri

Cordy thought Liam was doing in the bathroom? I didn't catch this bit of innuendo. Care to share?

[> [> Not that I would know anything about this... -- Rob the Innocent, 12:03:04 11/15/02 Fri

...but I kind of thought that it implied, um, the kind of thing that Xander thought Buffy was trying to pantomime in "Hush" when she made that unfortunate hand gesture, sans stake. ;o)


[> [> [> I'll have to go back and watch that scene again -- Masq, 12:07:15 11/15/02 Fri

You know, just out of mild curiosity. I was gonna rewatch the ep again anyway. I already have, like, ten times.

[> [> [> [> In the meantime... -- Masq, 12:11:04 11/15/02 Fri

You can still pitch in on the "StB" thread below. Wouldn't mind another guy's opinion on my psychoanalysis of Connor and Angel.

Masq, who is starting to contemplate her upcoming, already-advertised (not by her) psychoanalysis of Buffy

[> [> [> [> [> MASQ! A humble request please... -- ZachsMind, 14:21:24 11/15/02 Fri

While you're on the topic of Holden Webster psychoanalyzing Buffy, please take a moment to psychoanalyze the vampire also. Webster gives us a lot of clues as to how vamp minds work while he was dissecting Buffy's head. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Some of this has already been covered in previous episodes, but some of it's new revelations. We also see and hear from Holden's reactions to his new state of being how the act of siring works on the human/vampy psyche.

Predominantly, the body and mind of the vampire sees no real distinction between death and resurrection, other than the casual reaction like "how weird is that?" The vampire still sees itself on the surface as the same entity it was when it died, and usually is not frightened of its condition. It has become something to fear, rather than something that fears. Without a human soul, it is now "connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's gonna suck the world into a fiery oblivion." Most humans go through life completely unconnected and alone, so to suddenly be embraced by this powerful entity which is wired mystically to so many others, it must be incredibly seductive and alluring, not to mention secure and welcoming, especially for a psyche that just endured the trauma of certain death and yet still retains some resemblance of self- consciousness.

This sensation of being connected is thrilling and fills the new vampire with a reverse polarity that somehow rewards the ego for doing bad and discourages good behavior. It also acts with a strange overconfidence, because it feels more powerful (and ironically more alive) than ever before. Being so connected gives it the illusion that it's unstoppable and potentially immortal.

It's not the same person it once was. Instead of being human and innately neutral or good, it's definitely the body & mind of its victim, with a demonic evil possession of some kind replacing the now absent human soul. We don't know what this evil possession is. Is it a demon soul? Simply the abscense of a soul? IF there's no soul, what's causing it to function on a spiritual level, if anything? Holden does not act like a feral soulless beast. He's very much the gentleman, albeit with malevolent motivations. Nature also abhors a vaccuum, so if the human soul has vacated the body & mind yet they still operate, there must be something replacing it.

After a bit of disorientation, a newly sired vampire soon grasps its place in the world on an intrinsic level. As Holden put it: "I've got the bloodlust pumping, and I kinda get it. I'm looking for a fight. And, oh, it's nothing personal..." and he also retains the memories and personal quirks or habits of the human counterpart, but added to this are the vampire strengths and weaknesses. "Hello. Two years of Tae Kwon Do and vampire strength. I think somebody's counting their chickens."

If a human tended to psychoanalyze people in their human life, they'll probably continue doing that as vampires. If they knew Tae Kwon Do before, they won't necessarily forget it. However, if they were pious and God-fearing as humans, their state of mind will be towards evil, chaos & destruction as vampires. This could lead to a complex sense of self-identity, and even bouts with madness as Drusilla illustrated. For Holden, he accepted his new orientation on the scales of good & evil without question. We're not told, but it's possible he was agnostic or amoral prior to Spike's siring of him. Holden doesn't take it very seriously, because as he put it, "I got no worries. I'm dead. The biggest thing on my mind is whether or not Tricia Waldman came to my funeral or not."

A vampire's sense of morality is reversed. This could be unsettling or confusing to a new vampire, whose body and mind may still be habitually used to something else. In the moment where Buffy opens up and starts crying, Old Holden may have felt compelled to touch Buffy's cheek or hold her hand comfortingly. Vamp Holden felt compelled to touch her, but could only do it in a violent way, which confused & frustrated both of them. This right here is the crux of the issue between Spike & Buffy. They want intimacy with one another but at the same time they're sworn enemies, so the expression of their feelings comes out distorted and twisted.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we can learn as much about vampires in general and Spike's psyche in particular, by observing Holden's headshrinking of Buffy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Cool. -- Masq, 14:30:20 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Very nice examination -- VR, 15:14:11 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: MASQ! A humble request please... -- Rufus, 00:11:49 11/16/02 Sat

See, Darla was one smart hooker.....

Angel has his feet up on the table playing with his father’s pipe. His family lies dead around him.

Angel: “Now I’ve won.”

Darla: “You’re sure?”

Angel puts his feet down and picks up a mug of ale: “Of course. I proved who had the power here.”

Darla: “You think?”

Angel: “What?”

Darla: “You’re victory over him took but moments.”
Angel looks over at the body of his father and gets up: “Yes?”

Darla: “But his defeat of you will last life times.”

Angel: “What are you talking about? He can’t defeat me now.”

Darla: “Nor can he ever approve of you - in this world or any other. - What we once were informs all that we have become. (Angel looks at his father’s body) The same love will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat.
(Angel looks at his mother’s and his sister’s body) Simple death won’t change that.”

Imagine all that out of someone who never went to school, Darla understood things about humanity that Angelus was too immature to figure out. She knew that the father/son dance would be an eternal one......never knowing that in her special way she would start a new dance all over again over a hundred years later.....Angel is always screwed up by the parental relationship, and that is why he ends up right back where he has been running from.

[> [> [> [> With the sound effects... -- ZachsMind, 12:59:50 11/15/02 Fri

Sounded to me Cordy might have assumed he was uhm... making balloon animals in the bathroom. *smirk*

[> [> [> [> [> Re: LOL... Wiener dogs? -- pr10n (<-- abashed), 13:16:20 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: With the sound effects... -- Rufus, 00:06:33 11/16/02 Sat

There were balloon animals? And I missed it????? at the thought of Angel walking about with a bag of "balloons"....hope they are the meytaphysical type.

[> [> [> You're not the only one. I thought that too. -- Dichotomy, 16:49:29 11/15/02 Fri

She had that look on her face that said, "What's taking you so long in there....Oh. Ew. Never mind."

[> [> [> [> Exactly! -- Rob the Apparently-Not-So-Perverted ;o), 22:19:46 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Or maybe I'm just hopelessly naive -- Masq, 05:25:40 11/16/02 Sat

I just figured she thought he was going to the bathroom.

[> [> [> [> [> That's alright, Masq. You were never a teenage boy, so you might not have the same perspective. ;o) -- Rob, 09:46:57 11/16/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, there's that... -- Masq, 13:33:48 11/16/02 Sat

And that fact that, as a member of the Willow-Tara contingent, I don't spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about men holding their yanks.

Although I must add that many women do go through a similar stage in their lives, just a few years further down the line.

: )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Do I smell a Quote of the Week? -- Rob, 14:37:42 11/16/02 Sat

"And that fact that, as a member of the Willow-Tara contingent, I don't spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about men holding their yanks."

:o) LOL!


Theory about Spike (CwDP spoilers) -- Ferthepoet, 13:40:59 11/15/02 Fri

Date Posted: 13:21:26 11/15/02 Fri
Author: Ferthepoet
Subject: theory about spike´s sirings (spoilers)

after watching talking with dead people I rememberd my favorite show Babylon 5, in where the audience was misleaded to believe the show was about the War between the Vorlons and the Shadows only to realize they were both manipulating the younger races, the younger races send them out and then started their independence.

Now the theme in BTVS have always been Good vs Evil vs Shades of Gray....... I´ve come to think that in the end what we´re gonna get is that this First Evil will want to destroy the dimmension in where the show take place and we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and the Gray guys teaming up against it.......

The Balance between good and evil has been a reccurrent subject during the season.... so maybe the First Evil Plan is to destroy that balance and Spike is Siring people because he believes that helps keeping the balance....

[> What I'm hoping... (speccy) -- ZachsMind, 14:53:32 11/15/02 Fri

I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have similar Modus Operandi. "don't go for the kill when you can go for the pain." I hope that at some point the shapeshifting evil gets overconfident and gives D'Hoffyn a taste of his own medicine, and when that happens he gets ticked off enough at the shapeshifter that he and Anya have a temporary truce. If D'Hoffryn sided with Buffy's scooby gang, I think pretty much all demons would follow suit.

It'd be kinda like if the democrats & republicans could agree on something.

[> [> Re: What I'm hoping... (speccy) -- leslie, 16:26:01 11/15/02 Fri

"I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have similar Modus Operandi. "don't go for the kill when you can go for the pain." "

Uh huh. No-one seems to have suggested that maybe the Devoury Thingy IS D'Hoffryn.... oh, the possibilities.

[> [> don't think so -- anom, 09:42:56 11/18/02 Mon

"I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have similar Modus Operandi. 'don't go for the kill when you can go for the pain.'"

Looks to me like Thingy wants to go for both the pain and the kill. Just not "easy death."

[> Nice theory! -- Robert, 17:41:33 11/15/02 Fri

>>> and we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and the Gray guys teaming up against it.

It has the lovely quality of being both unique and radical. It is also nice to hear from a fellow Babylon 5 fan. It was a great show before TNT eviscerated it.

[> [> Re: Nice theory! -- Deb, 09:06:17 11/16/02 Sat

Sounds like a show "Charmed" did. I hope they don't imitate "Charmed." I've watched that show for five years and it's really beginning to get old and stale and dull and stupid. . .

[> [> [> Slightly OT, but -- Juliet, 21:38:56 11/16/02 Sat

Charmed was cool until they killed Prue. Proves my theory of 'you DON'T kill core characters of a show unless you're going to end the show or resurrect them'. It's the fate that awaits Buffy if it falls

Off to go read a fic now...concidentally, it's HonorH's.

[> Okay, you lost me here. -- Deb, 09:00:09 11/16/02 Sat

Spike is siring Vampires (evil) to keep the balance between good and evil? The BB intends on disrupting the balance by killing evil demons and so letting "good" have the heavy hand? Correct my thinking here please.

[> [> Re: Okay, you lost me here. -- Slain, 12:51:22 11/16/02 Sat

The way I understood it, Ferthepoet means that the BBW will trying a destroy everything - good and evil, by playing with the balance, the balance that Wolfram and Hart and perhaps the Sunnydale government are keen to keep stable.

Personally, and this hinges on my belief that the BBW is the First Evil, I think the BBW wants to destroy all good, and to therefore destroy the balancing act of the universe that it has always upheld.

I know a season is going well when I speculate this much!

[> [> [> Re: Okay, you lost me here. -- Ferthepoet, 14:50:18 11/16/02 Sat

O.k we´re talking about the theory of the species here... ever species have an important role to play on the biotic sysmtems.... both the predator and the pray are as important to keep the system in balance....Reduce the number of one of them to a significant degree and system enter in chaos..- the theory about vampires being need and Spike siring for reasons that are good or at least considered good by him is consisten with the killing of slayers in trainee we saw during the first 2 episodes of the season.....

Another Theory is that since it´s all about power and vampires have more power than human Spike may believe that when the big fight comes Vampires would come more in handy than humans

[> [> [> [> However. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:10:51 11/16/02 Sat

Vampires are NOT natural creatures. Plus, as Buffy once said, "I don't think you exactly run out of vampires."

[> Yet another Theory about Spike´s sirings (CwDP spoilers) -- Ferthepoet, 15:14:03 11/16/02 Sat

Another tought that ran trought my mind is that the girl we see Spike siring may actually be the Shapeshifter and may have conviced spike that it was what she wanted......

[> [> About the siring thing -- Dariel, 10:56:02 11/17/02 Sun

Another thought that ran through my mind is that the girl we see Spike siring may actually be the Shapeshifter and may have conviced spike that it was what she wanted...

We haven't seen any sirings yet. Spike bit, perhaps drained the girl, but he did not sire her. For a siring to occur, she would have had to drink from him.

[> [> [> Of course there's the whole Willow/Sandy issue -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:36:50 11/17/02 Sun

In Dopplegangland, we see Vamp Willow bite and drain the woman named Sandy, but Vamp Willow didn't exchange any of her blood. However, Vamp Sandy turns up in Season 5 to tempt Riley.

[> [> [> [> Re: Of course there's the whole Willow/Sandy issue -- Dariel, 16:51:56 11/17/02 Sun

I think this just shows that Sandy was screwed no matter which universe she was in!

[> Re: Theory about Spike (CwDP spoilers) -- Sophie, 07:22:31 11/17/02 Sun

Now the theme in BTVS have always been Good vs Evil vs Shades of Gray....... I´ve come to think that in the end what we´re gonna get is that this First Evil will want to destroy the dimmension in where the show take place and we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and the Gray guys teaming up against it.......

Ok, the show has always had characters who were both good and evil (within a char). But this was strictly limited. Angel was evil plus good due to soul. Faith also was good and evil using the slayer power trip as an excuse (forgive me I have only seen about half of season three and that was out of order). Spike was evil, then became good due to chip, and now is being good and evil due to something unknown (BBW or himself is not clear right now). Last season we saw Warren, Andrew, and Jonathon, who were good, try to become evil, completely shedding their good sides? Not convinced that is possible. We have seen Buffy flirt with evil intimately with both Angel and Spike. Other than her mistreating/using Spike, she remains good. Then we saw Willow brutally murder Warren. This was definitely an evil act, but Willow has been forgiven as she was in pain over Tara's unfortunate death and she has acknowledged her wrong- doing.

Now this season, we are getting more shades of gray. This typically happens to people as they get older – they perceive more shades of gray and less black and white about the world and others surrounding them. Eventually as a person gets older, he/she realizes that his/her own actions come in shades of gray. We are seeing the shades of gray (good and evil) within a person applied to each character on the show. Dawn may well be exempted due to age on this, though.

I have mentioned this before, as I am fascinated by good and evil within a single person. I struggle with such issues myself. After the WTC fell, I concluded that much of what people label as evil is not very evil in comparison. So there are shades of gray in evilness. Probably shades of gray in goodness, but I haven't thought about that as hard.


My analysis of "Spin the Bottle" is up -- Masquerade, 13:46:14 11/15/02 Fri


Thanks to everyone who helped me wrestle with the whole Angel-Connor father-son thing!

"Conversations with Dead People" is next. Although I have this sneaking suspicion it won't be done before next Tuesday night. Hey! I'm not procrastinating, hoping they reveal some of the answers to the questions "CwDP" raised. It's just that it's my birthday on Sunday, and I have other plans. ; )

[> What a way to stealthily drive it home for us that didn't already know. ;-P -- VR, 15:08:37 11/15/02 Fri

[> Happy Birthday (t-2 and counting), Masq! -- Vickie, 15:25:31 11/15/02 Fri

And thanks for the great analysis.

[> Happy Birthday! -- Sophie, 15:49:11 11/15/02 Fri

[> Happy Birthday! Enjoy! -- Sarand, 16:10:11 11/15/02 Fri

[> Happy Birth-a-day To You! -- Dichotomy, 16:30:05 11/15/02 Fri

That's suppoesd to me singing it a la Jimmy Durante, in case you were wondering. Have a great day!

[> Happy Birthday, Masq! And Many More. -- Arethusa, 17:25:04 11/15/02 Fri

[> May you be Too Soon Schmart und Too Late Oldt! :- ) -- OnM, 20:13:42 11/15/02 Fri

As the Amish folk here would say.

( Well, they would if they were on drugs, but... never mind. )

Have a very happy and festive ceremony marking the fact that you're all of one whole day older than you were the day before!

[> Happy Birthday! -- Nightingale, 20:52:30 11/15/02 Fri

[> A Happy Birthday from your favorite Trollop.....join the dark side Masq....:):):):) -- Rufus, 21:20:47 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> I'm staying on the light side of the force -- Masq, 21:58:22 11/15/02 Fri

I did the whole spoiler trollop thing in Season 3, and though it couldn't ruin the Faith and Buffy 'shipping fun, it did take the air out of a lot of eps for me.

No thanks, I'm living clean now.

[> [> [> Happy Birthday Masq and you are a wonderful host! -- Briar Rose, 14:30:10 11/16/02 Sat

[> Thanks all! -- Masq, 21:59:40 11/15/02 Fri

And in case you're wondering, it's the big 3-9 for me this year.

[> [> And here's another for ya! HAPPY BIRTHDAY! -- Rob, 22:24:14 11/15/02 Fri

But don't let all that cake, ice cream, and party hats keep ya away too long from the CWTD analyzin'...Can't wait to read your as-of-yet-still-non-existant philosophical sum-up. ;o)


[> [> [> Don't worry, I've started working on it already... -- Masq, 08:56:32 11/16/02 Sat

[> Happy Birthday! -- Ete&Rah, 02:47:47 11/16/02 Sat

[> [> Re: Happy Birthday! -- Brian, 05:53:02 11/16/02 Sat

[> Have a great B-day! -- ponygirl, 07:55:22 11/16/02 Sat

[> Ohh. I hope you have a wickedly naughty time. - - Deb, 08:54:11 11/16/02 Sat

[> Hippy-poppy-hoppy Birthday for tomorrow, Masq! -- Wisewoman ;o), 17:04:48 11/16/02 Sat

[> other plans, huh? well, hope you enjoyed 'em! happy birthday!! -- anom, 17:41:01 11/16/02 Sat

[> Have a very happy birthday for today! -- KdS, 05:43:11 11/17/02 Sun

[> Happy birthday! Hope those other plans include a lot of fun! -- Cactus Watcher, 05:57:46 11/17/02 Sun

Anonymous No More (vauge spoilers 7.7) -- Juliet, 14:31:37 11/15/02 Fri

Ok. There's some mysterious evil haunting Sunnydale and messing with everyone's minds.

But what is it called? No one knows for sure, but I think in the meantime we should come up with a universal (or at least board-wide...) name for it, since as of right now everyone has their own. I'm getting hella confused.

My votes are for whoever called it "IT". :-)

[> I kinda like HonorH's BBW (Big Bad Whatever) -- Sarand, 15:21:17 11/15/02 Fri

Although in a previous post I might have referred to it as "it", there's a book by Stephen King and a tv movie entitled "It" that some people have referred to here and that would just get me more confused. Just my opinion, though. Would be nice to have a universal reference, I agree.

[> [> Re: I kinda like HonorH's BBW (Big Bad Whatever) -- Haecceity, 13:00:51 11/16/02 Sat

Me too, though my brain kept interpreting it as "Big Bad Wolf."

Would this explain the imploding windows at the Summers' house;)


[> I vote for keeping everybody confused.. -- ZachsMind, 15:40:10 11/15/02 Fri

I enjoy making up variations on the whole "bottom" thing. Other fun variations are:

The Evil That Dare Not Speak Its Name
IT (Not Stephen King's It. the OTHER IT)
The Big Bad Whatever
Shapeshifting Bottom Feeder
The Devourer of Butts

[> [> Ohh. I second that. -- Deb, 09:02:43 11/16/02 Sat

[> Re: Some call it... Tim? -- pr10n, 15:55:48 11/15/02 Fri

And then of course Zachs would call it Timothy Bottoms.

[> [> No I'd call it The Ravenous Beast of AAAAaaarg & point IT to Robin's Minstrels w/Much Rejoicing -- ZachsMind, 16:26:22 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> Run Awaaay! -- Nightingale, 20:24:07 11/15/02 Fri

Sorry, I just had to de-lurk for this. My first Post and it's a Monty Python reference. Figures...

(oh, and There was MUCH rejoicing...Yaaay!)

[> [> [> [> Did you find that in the Book of Armaments? -- celticross, 23:11:46 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Well, Giles said in season five-- "THREE SIR!" Uhm, I mean three... -NT -- ZachsMind, 07:45:05 11/16/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Giles must have known... -- Nightingale, 08:40:16 11/16/02 Sat

That Five was Right Out!

Hey...Maybe this is why Anya is afraid of bunnies? With the 'Nasty Pointy Teeth' and all...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles must have known... -- d'Herblay, 21:28:24 11/16/02 Sat

Already considered by Wisewoman in her Halo-award winning attachment to her Anya character study.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oooh...Thanks! -- Nightingale having thoroughly learned the lesson that..., 05:10:50 11/17/02 Sun

...nothing is new under the sun. Especially at ATPo where just showing up is a learning experience.

Well, my fleeting moment of "hey! that was new and original!" just went slinking off into the night. Sorry to (albeit unknowingly) repeat Wisewoman's (and apparently many others') idea. Forgive me? I'm playing the newbie card and hoping for mercy...

p.s. That was very entertaining. Thanks for the link.

[> [> And don't we have a poster called Tim? -- Slain, 12:20:53 11/16/02 Sat

[> Re: Anonymous No More (vauge spoilers 7.7) -- leslie, 16:23:55 11/15/02 Fri

I'm going to be an anal copy editor here and recommend the standard editorial procedure of spelling out/defining whatever term you are going to use on first use, followed by an abbreviation/acronym in parens, and then using the short form from then on.

[> Bootylicious? -- Dichotomy, 16:45:12 11/15/02 Fri

Rump Roaster?

Sorry. Seriously, I like BBW--easy to remember and not as confusing as It might be.

[> My vote is for BBW, too. -- Tyresius, 19:03:41 11/15/02 Fri

Although I would also accept:

BYID (Beneath You It Devours)
MEME (Mutant Enemy's Morphing Evil)
EEMF (Evil Entity of Many Faces)
SSS (Season Seven's Something)
or Bert (because I was scared of the Sesame Street muppet when I was a toddler ... unibrows. *shudder*)

[> [> BBW for me, as well. -- Rob, 19:09:01 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> The thing that bites you in the ass? Tony Danzathar? -- d'Herblay, 21:11:41 11/15/02 Fri

And how many episodes will go by before Buffy mispronounces that one "Dance-a-thon"?

[> I kind of liked Morphy... -- KdS, 08:59:54 11/16/02 Sat

... visions of little brown plasticine men.

[> [> Lol. -- Juliet, 20:14:05 11/16/02 Sat

I saw "teen-aged mini-Spike at Wal-Mart today. -- Deb, 19:10:27 11/15/02 Fri

It takes guts in this town to do this, and his mother was trying to pretend she didn't know him. I went over to them and said "Hey, I like the Spike duds." His mother looked at me like I was nuts. The kid relaxed a little bit. Then people started coming from all over to see. No one ever fesses to watching Buffy, but they come running to see a Spike imitator?

At least this encounter wasn't intimidating. A couple of years ago I was in Chicago at Navy Pier. I was talking to someone. Turned around and ran smack into a 7' Klingon. Classic face at chest level with head tilting backward to see where he ended. (Talk about platform shoes.) They're much scarier looking in person, because they're so tiny looking on TV. My friends paid him to "buddy around with me" for awhile. I learned that its hard to ditch a Klingon.

[> Funny you should mention this... -- Wisewoman, 19:42:00 11/15/02 Fri

On the bus in downtown Vancouver today I saw three separate people (two male, one female) wearing full-length black leather dusters.

I don't recall ever having seen even one before.



[> [> Everybody wears 'em here at Purdue. -- Apophis, 20:00:00 11/15/02 Fri

Some geeks (it's okay for me to call them that, 'cause I'm of their breed) think that if they drown themselves in black leather, they'll be cooler.

[> [> [> Hey! I am in Purdue, too. -- Sang, 21:36:41 11/15/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Yes, but do you have a big black leather coat? -- Slain, 11:35:50 11/16/02 Sat

Let's not discount the Matrix, Blade and some other things I'm overlooking, too. And Goths. Where I live, and we're talking small English market town, it's not uncommon to see the occassional black leather duster, sometimes in the heat of summer. The thing I find curious is that they never seem to fit. Even your big 6' Goth somehow manages to find a coat two sizes too big for him.

Drew Goddard - Murder For Hire (Spoilers Through Buffy 7.7 and future speculation) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:54:15 11/15/02 Fri

The fifth episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer aired on October 22. It was entitled "Selfless" and was written by a writer new to the Mutant Enemy writing staff named Drew Goddard (also known as New!Drew). The episode was praised by many people, and one of the most shocking moments was when D'Hoffryn incinerated Halfrek in the place of Anya.

On November 12, a new episode of Buffy was released that was written by Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard. This episode gained even more praise and attention (rightly deserved, in my opinion, it's the best episode of this season so far). And, near the end, we had a series of destructive images as Buffy staked the vampire Holden, Spike bit a woman, and Andrew stabbed Jonathan.

Anyone else seeing a pattern here? While the New!Drew may be a great writer, I don't think that's the only reason he was hired. I think that, after all the negative fan reaction to Tara's death last year, Mutant Enemy is playing it safe and hired a new writer whose duty is to write the episodes where a character beloved by fans is killed (Halfrek and Jonathan aren't popular enough to create the same amount of outrage Tara's death got, but killing them off is still potentially fan piss-offy). If fans complain about (name of character here) being killed, the other writers can always go "It wasn't us! It was the new guy!"

If this theory is correct, a recurring character may die in many, if not all, of Drew Goddard's episodes. And, if I hear right, episode 7.9 will be another episode written by him. Who will bite the big one this time?

P.S. Clem! Your number is up! Death to the kitten eater!

[> Now for some "Insane Trollop Logic" spoilers -- Rufus, 21:18:16 11/15/02 Fri

So, what you are saying is that Drew is now the Angel of Death.....if this is true I can see the actors beginning to call him "sir" or something.....;) Hmmmm I'm his #12 title.....Rufus the Uncooperative Minion....I'm still here so maybe his killing spree is just a fluke....or I'd better start kissing up pronto.

[> [> "insane trollop logic"--love it!!! -- master of pun fu, 23:29:55 11/16/02 Sat

[> Re: Drew Goddard - Murder For Hire (Spoilers Through Buffy 7.7 and future speculation) -- Doriander, 21:40:34 11/15/02 Fri

If fans complain about (name of character here) being killed, the other writers can always go "It wasn't us! It was the new guy!"


He may be the new guy, but he's surpassed some of the other writers in my estimation. Much as I like to think of him as holding the "You murdering bastard! Will you marry me?" throne in Jossdom, until he kills a regular, Tim still reigns. But he's 2 for 2 now, he's close to seizing it.

7.9? Yay!

[> [> On Another Note. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:12:38 11/16/02 Sat

Does anyone think that Joss and Co. struck gold when they hired Drew Goddard? So far, the guy was written one truly great episode and co-written an even greater one. And I think that ME realized this far in advance, otherwise they wouldn't be giving so many episodes to a new writer. Anybody know if Goddard has written anything previously? I think I might want to look into it.

[> [> [> A Goddard among men -- Tyreseus, 17:50:38 11/16/02 Sat

I can't find any reference to previous experience, but there is a fansite up already.

They do have a somewhat dubious bio on the site.

And from the man himself (also found on the site) he said:
I grew up in lovely Los Alamos, New Mexico. Went to college in Colorado. Came out here shortly thereafter. Wrote some television spec scripts, one of which found its way over here, and then presto! Buffy writer. That’s the extraordinarily abbreviated version, anyway.

[> [> [> [> Re: D. Goddard in Colorado U. -- Sang, 15:17:22 11/17/02 Sun

I think my post about D.G. was not yet archived. But you can find a interesting view of him in his B.A. thesis abstract when he received Summa Cum Laude in English literature, Colorado U. 1997. Alas, I cannot find the whole thesis there.

From the Light
Drew Goddard
Department of English
B.A. Honors Thesis Abstract
I'm hesitant to summarize my work in a few sentences. Simply put, if I could summarize myself so easily I wouldn't be a writer. I had originally intended From the Light to be the first three chapters of a larger work. As I was writing it, though, it became apparent that the circular structure of the writing allowed the piece to stand on its own.

The piece consists of three stories, each told by a different narrator. The first narrator is a high school senior trapped in a night. The second is an adolescent male trapped in his body. The third is a doctor trapped in his hospital.

The triple narrator format of the work stresses the importance of author-reader interaction. I strive to give my readers A & B and allow them to create C on their own. On the surface the three narrators seem connected by the loosest of strands; the narrative moves from one story- teller to the other through chance interactions. The meat of the work comes from what is not said, from the white on the page between each word and each character.

This is not to devalue the words themselves. Drunk driving mishaps, urine sample catastrophes, and first communion pictures all serve as ideal minimalist conduits to the bigger picture (I'm not exactly sure what ideal minimalist conduits means, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?). Each chapter -- each sentence, for that matter -- provides the reader with the necessary pictures. Like the characters in these stories, the reader must strive to make sense of these fragments of light and darkness.

[> Re: And speaking of writers... -- Silky, 09:29:55 11/16/02 Sat

When we will see another episode written by Diego Gutierrez (forgive my probably incorrect spelling) who wrote Normal Again last season. That was a fabulous episode.

Also, one thing I esp. like about Drew G. and Jane E. is that they both seem to be 'students' of the show - by that I mean they have a really good familiarity with what has gone on in past episodes and write episodes that contain similarities or direct references to Buffy history. Makes it more fun to watch.

For Canadians who watch the Space Channel ..DEC 8/02 Angel Special -- Rufus, 00:14:47 11/16/02 Sat

Was watching Space and it was announced that there was to be a behind the scenes special devoted to Angel the Series......Sunday December 8 at 5pm eastern.

[> Cool! I already saw the one they did on BtvS on Nov 12. -- Blood Luvin Girl, 02:06:13 11/16/02 Sat

[> Thanks Rufus -- ponygirl, 08:06:18 11/16/02 Sat

It's been quite a different experience watching the s6 episodes on Space. Seeing the shows in order but without the weeklong gaps really makes me appreciate even more what ME was doing last year. And they didn't cut OMWF! Yay for Space!

[> You have a "Space Channel"? -- Deb, 08:48:08 11/16/02 Sat

I'm lucky to get UPN. I'll be glad when we can pick and choose the channels we wanted at a flat fee per month per channel.

[> Re: For Canadians who watch the Space Channel ..DEC 8/02 Angel Special -- lynx, 16:20:12 11/16/02 Sat

i missed the buffy special (pout) but i won't miss the angel - thanks.

2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- HonorH, 00:41:25 11/16/02 Sat

First spec: What does everyone think will happen to Andrew now? Is he gonna take Spike's place as the Phantom of Sunnydale High? I can just see Gollum!Andrew creeping around and talking to Jonathan's corpse as what passes for his brain goes into a steady decline.

Second spec: with Faith in the cards for later, and various rumblings that Willow will have a new girlfriend sooner or later, who thinks it might be Faith? Seriously: Faith and Willow could really understand each other now. They've both gone over to the dark side, off the deep end, and have ended up sobbing in a male friend's arms. Faith's hot and--come on!--nowhere near strictly straight, and I can see her and Willow working off some angst together. And even if you don't buy the subtext argument re: Faith's sexuality, she's been in prison; tell me that someone with Faith's libido has been celibate the entire time. Options are pretty limited in the clink, y'know?

Comments? Questions?

[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- chuk_38, 04:43:01 11/16/02 Sat

could happen, but i dont mean to put a pin in it, but willow hates faith, and the hatred isnt just a little anger, its kinda a full blown 'i want you dead ' thing :)

but still it could happen, they have both had similar excperiences, with the killing humans and being evil, so why not. it could happen :)


[> [> my season 7 theory *spoilers* -- 110v3w1110w, 07:54:01 11/16/02 Sat

what could go down given all the plot clues given so far. the big bad is IMO the first evil and from what we have heard it say it has had enough of the balance and enough of the mortal coil so i think that i wants to die and in doing so it will destroy the balance between good and evil. so i think it will manipulate spike in to vamping dawn (this would cover the clues of joyce saying buffy would be against her and all the other dawn being vamped foreshadowing) and in doing so would provoke buffy into killing it and when buffy does kill it the balance will be gone so buffy will have to commit an act of evil to restore the balance the act i think will be killing xander. (this would cover the meaning the heart failing business of cassie because he is the heart of the scoobys and it also might explain why he wasn't in the recent episode) this would also explain why the big bad wants willow out of the way because willow has been through the whole destroying the world thing for revenge and might be able to talk buffy out of killing the first evil out of revenge for dawn becaue she know what it would mean. the only thing i can't fit in andrews role in all of this and it would also rely on balance between good and evil being critical in the buffyverse. so what do you think ?

[> [> [> Interesting. So many paths... -- Deb, 11:08:23 11/16/02 Sat

[> [> [> Somehow... -- Juliet, 20:49:13 11/16/02 Sat

Paths do point to both of these, but I think only one of them can happen.

Why? Because losing one alone would devastate Buffy, and losing both would destroy her beyond the point of repair.

She's already screwed up enough, and I think if the writers were going to kill off another major character it would just mess up the whole dynamic of the show.

But that's just my $.02 .

[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- leslie, 11:49:00 11/16/02 Sat

"but willow hates faith, and the hatred isnt just a little anger, its kinda a full blown 'i want you dead ' thing :)"

But Willow hated Faith because Faith was usurping her position as Buffy's best friend, *and*, if we want to get all psychodynamicy about it, there was that gay subtext in Buffy and Faith's relationship--maybe hitting Willow's as- yet-undiscovered lesbian raw nerve? Maybe now that Willow realizes and accepts that she's gay, her hostility to Faith will be lessened?

[> [> [> And, too, I can't see Willow getting all judgmental now. -- HonorH, 12:55:10 11/16/02 Sat

She hated Faith for usurping her position with Buffy and also for going bad and betraying Buffy. However, now that there's really no chance of Faith usurping her with Buffy anymore, and Willow's gone bad and betrayed Buffy and her friends herself, is Willow really going to feel a need to be that venomous toward Faith anymore?

[> [> [> [> Of course she'll still hate her! -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:34:38 11/16/02 Sat

While that reaction may no longer be justified, it seems to be pretty much the only way she knows to act around Faith.

[> [> [> [> [> Wanna place some bets? -- HonorH, 14:08:42 11/16/02 Sat

I'm going to say Willow will not be venomous toward Faith anymore. I'm not going to say there won't be some tension, but the unreasoning hatred will go. This is where I stand. You can quote me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I am with you 100% HonorH. -- errin, 14:21:03 11/16/02 Sat

I have been thinking that something is going to happen between Willow and Faith for months now. I am glad that now I see that someone else is with me on this one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Let me rephrase what I said -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:06:27 11/16/02 Sat

I think, upon first encounter, we'll see the old hatred still blazing between Witch and Slayer. However, the idea that after an episode or two of Faith being in Sunnydale, the two of them may become closer (possibly intimate) does sound quite logical to me. But, the first episode Faith appears in (or the first one where she and Willow have a chance to talk, anyway) will not be all "I can sympathise, I know what you went through, is that lesbian subtext you had real?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> ***SPOILERS ***Re: Wanna place some bets? -- CouldaShoulda , 16:07:06 11/16/02 Sat

I totally agree with you, HonorH.
Buffy hated Spike, Xander hated Cordelia, so Willow hated Faith. Big deal.
So Faith's not a lesbian. Big Deal. She is Faith-I'd say she's pretty open to just about anything.
Now, I do think the knifepoint hostage taking, sexually assauting best friend piece will be a bit of an obstacle, OTOH, this is Sunnydale...
I know that one of the upcoming SITs is supposed to be a slightly older bi/lesbian but to me that just seems too obvious. I'd be disappointed if they took the easy out and paired her with the first lesbian that came along, OTOH, this is M. E. ....
I know ships aren't supposed to be important this season but they have said that W will get a new luv, and it would be more economical plot thread wise to pair her with F, plus there's just such a great symmetry to it-it closes a circle that started back in S3. My take is that S3 F brought to the surface a lot of W's own "dark" forbidden stuff -remember, Doppelgangland opens with a discussion about Faith and W goes all pencil spinny.
I am not saying it's going to be a big cosmic soul mate romance, but I can certainly see some apocalyptically- induced sexual sparkage between two gals on the redemption path. And remember, it took the Ascension to finally get W/Oz in the sack.

I can also see them having to reverse that S3 triangle and come together to deal with a possibly evil Buffy.

Anyhoo, just my .02 worth of speculation. It's fun to imagine, even if it doesn't happen

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Of course she'll still hate her! -- Malandanza, 20:01:49 11/17/02 Sun

I agree with Finn on this one -- there will be no Faith/Willow relationship, sexual or romantic.

First big barrier? Faith likes having sex with guys. She's the "do that" girl.

FAITH: Faith has won a fabulous trip to England, and I got the consolation prize. Which is you.
She lowers herself onto his lap. Runs her hands along his arms.
FAITH (cont'd): Well aren't you just a big ol' block of man.

Who Are You

Which is not to say that Faith doesn't have some issues with sex -- but those seem to be more a
long the lines of feeling guilty for liking sex (and having her friends treat her like a slut for expressing her sexuality only reinforced her guilt) and intimacy issues (thus, tossing Xander out of her apartment in The Zeppo and her reaction with Riley in WAY).

FAITH: Oh, you wouldn't have liked Faith. She's not proper and joyless like a girl should be. She has a tendency to give in to her animal instincts.

Who Are You

Early on, Faith is clearly established as much more experienced than Buffy and her friends. She shocks them into silence with her remarks in episodes like B&tB and frequently unsettles Buffy with her talk about using a couple of studs, why Buffy hasn't had sex with Xander (what are friends for), equating sex and violence -- plus all the grunting. In Superstar, omniscient Jonathan tells a penitent Riley that Buffy might feel uneasy because of Faith's vast sexual experience (with guys).

Next, there are her disparaging remarks about lesbians -- suggesting that

FAITH: Well, could be things are looking up. I mean, little stint in the pokey, show her the error and all that. I'm sure there's some big ol' Bertha just waiting to shower her ripe little self with affection.

further comments about Willow "not driving stick" any more and smugly telling Willow that she's sure Willow will give Tara what she needs. Faith seems more homophobic than homosexual to me (not that the two are mutually exclusive). On AtS, she thought Lilah was predatory older lesbian trying to pick up young girls and played along to mug Lilah. The subtext that we've seen with Faith is just Faith being Faith -- unsettling other people (usually Buffy) by playing on their misconceptions and inhibitions.

Finally, even if Faith were a lesbian, it would never be with Willow. Willow hates Faith passionately and irrationally. It began because Willow was jealous of Faith's friendship with Buffy -- this is an issue that would present itself once more if Faith were to return to Sunnydale. After everything she's been through, Buffy would almost certainly want to make amends with Faith. Willow is already feeling a bit like an outsider after going evil, worrying that Faith would replace her again would be unlikely to engender any feelings of goodwill between Willow and Faith. From Faith's point of view, Willow is hardly a blip on the radar. Faith barely noticed Willow. In WAY, she even remarks that she'd forgotten how much willow hated Faith after Wilow's rant about throwing the book at Faith. Faith's return will not create anything but jealousy in Willow.

I'm not sure why anyone would even want to see them together -- imagine the Willow/Tara fight in Season Five with Faith instead of Tara. Faith would have knocked Willow's teeth in for attacking her like that. It would be Spuffy all over again -- one partner physically abusive and the other emotionally abusive.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Plus the Zeppo thing -- Philistine, 21:24:32 11/17/02 Sun

True, Willow hasn't had any romantic interest in Xander for a couple of years now. But be that as it may, do you really think she's ever going to forgive Faith for being Xander's "first?"

[> [> [> [> [> [> A few counterpoints: -- HonorH, 22:57:41 11/17/02 Sun

1. Yes, Faith likes guys. However, she and Buffy burned up the screen with homoerotic subtext in S3, complete with an awful lot of double entendres (Buffy saying she had a "date" with Faith in "Homecoming", Faith drawing a heart on the window in BG, the dance scene in BG, Faith kissing Buffy's forehead (and in the shooting script, it was her lips) in "Enemies," saying "Give us a kiss" in GDI). Overall, I'd call Faith firmly "bi".

2. If you don't accept the subtext argument, Faith's been in prison for over two years now. Is someone with her libido going to be celibate this entire time? In the clink, there aren't a lot of options.

3. Yes, indeedy, Faith did cotton on to Willow/Tara awful quickly. Can we say, "Gaydar"?

4. Faith's claw-sharpening with Willow was, well, claw- sharpening with Willow. Her comment about Buffy was just to be mean. And the thing with Lilah? If it had been Lee making the proposition, she'd have done the exact same thing. Note how she attacked the pimp at the beginning. He didn't look like a lesbian to me.

5. Like I've been saying: Willow doesn't feel like she's in a position to judge anyone right now. Willow's seen the dark side of herself. She betrayed Buffy and all her friends and endangered the lot of them just as badly as, if not worse than, Faith ever did. That's not conducive to irrational hatred.

6. You're missing who's been dominant in all Willow's relationships. She was the one who abused Tara, not the other way around. Faith's learned some control, hopefully, and aside from that, Willow still has the witchy powers, so no abusing her. Now, they could end up like Buffy and Spike, but if Faith's been on the road to redemption, she and Willow have both grown a great deal. Neither of them are as emotionally unhealthy as Buffy and Spike were last year--at least, I don't believe Faith will be as unhealthy as she was when last we saw her. That wouldn't be good character development.

Anyway, I'm still arguing for it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A few counterpoints: -- Malandanza, 07:23:35 11/18/02 Mon

"Yes, Faith likes guys. However, she and Buffy burned up the screen with homoerotic subtext in S3, complete with an awful lot of double entendres (Buffy saying she had a "date" with Faith in "Homecoming", Faith drawing a heart on the window in BG, the dance scene in BG, Faith kissing Buffy's forehead (and in the shooting script, it was her lips) in "Enemies," saying "Give us a kiss" in GDI). Overall, I'd call Faith firmly "bi"."

Yes, indeedy, Faith did cotton on to Willow/Tara awful quickly. Can we say, "Gaydar"?

I'd point out that Spike also picked up on Willow/Tara awfully quickly in TYF. Spike had his sexbot programmed to talk about Angel. Spike frequently makes disparaging comments about homosexuals. Spike vamps guys (even though we've seen the feeding process as sexual). The kiss on Buffy's forehead wasn't sexual any more than was Angelus' kiss on Spike's forehead back in Season Two. No one thinks Spike is bi. And even if he were bi, would he have sex with Xander? Any homoeroticism between Faith and Buffy (and I think you are giving this handful of instances too much significance -- these instances were more about dominance games than sex) says something about Faith and Buffy, not Faith and Willow. Certainly when Faith and Buffy were alone, away from any other people, the conversation was not homoerotic. It was usually about guys.

If you don't accept the subtext argument, Faith's been in prison for over two years now. Is someone with her libido going to be celibate this entire time? In the clink, there aren't a lot of options.

I don't believe that every heterosexual woman emerges from prison a lesbian or bisexual. In Faith's case, because she is so in to guys, I'd say it's even less likely (now, sex with a male prison guard might be a different story). Plus, sexual behavior in prison is no indication of a person's true sexual proclivities -- there are male prisoners who are gay in prison, but would never think of touching a guy in the outside world.

"Like I've been saying: Willow doesn't feel like she's in a position to judge anyone right now. Willow's seen the dark side of herself. She betrayed Buffy and all her friends and endangered the lot of them just as badly as, if not worse than, Faith ever did. That's not conducive to irrational hatred."

Willow has frequently not been in the position to judge, yet she has never let that stop her from being judgmental. So while I agree that she's not in a position to judge Faith, I also believe she's hypocritical enough to judge Faith anyway. And you're missing the point about "irrational hatred" -- it's not rational.

"You're missing who's been dominant in all Willow's relationships. She was the one who abused Tara, not the other way around. Faith's learned some control, hopefully, and aside from that, Willow still has the witchy powers, so no abusing her."

Willow's witchy powers are a problem. Remember Willow's psychotic flash in the Frat house when she used magic against the spider demon? Remember Faith's psychotic flash when Willow was verbally abusing her in WAY? A quarrel between the girls could quickly escalate into Spuffy (or worse -- Buffy and Spike really couldn't do any lasting physical damage to each other).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike is bi -- Etrangere, 09:40:07 11/18/02 Mon

Sorry, I agree with you about Willow/Faith being extremely unlikely, but there were a definite homosexual subtext in the relationship between Angel(us) and Spike in S2.
I think that early on ME toyed a lot with the idea of all vampires having a very open sexuality, that's what was really behind VampWillow's behaviour, not foreshadowing of Willow's future orientation.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I certainly do -- Cleanthes, 12:24:36 11/18/02 Mon

No one thinks Spike is bi.

Golly, I didn't think this one was very obscure. I've never seen Spike as anything but bi. Are Etrangere and I alone in this?

Dru seemed to think so, I thought, when she had such a gleeful response to Angel and Spike fighting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I certainly do -- belle, 16:47:54 11/18/02 Mon

I dunno if I'd label him "bi," what with the whole passionate romantic idealization of women, but erotically he certainly seems open. Besides the A/D/S triangle, and all kinds of fun subtext with Xander, there was heavy innuendo in OAFA--Spike was pretty broadly leering at Buffy's hapless blind date--in a contemptuous, vampiric, aggressive kind of way. Forget the exact line, but the sexual subtext was pretty un-sub. It was sort of like Frank N Furter making a pass at one of his rivals.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More counterpoints: -- HonorH, 16:41:52 11/18/02 Mon

As you can see, some people do think Spike is bi. He just wouldn't go for Xander because he does not *like* Xander or find him sexually appealing. Even if you don't accept that Spike could play both teams, though, he's got great insight into human behavior, and he's been around long enough to pick up a vibe when he sees one. Of course he'd figure out Willow/Tara in record time.

As for giving those incidents too much emphasis, Joss Himself has said there was a purposeful sexual element in the Buffy/Faith relationship. The BG dance scene, for example, wasn't about dominance at all. When you've got that many examples of double entendres around two characters, it's seldom for no reason. Faith's bath in Buffy's body would be another example of a sexual vibe. And of course they'd talk about guys--Buffy was with Angel when Faith was in Sunnydale, and if Faith's tendencies were latent, she couldn't exactly say, "Hey, B, wanna screw?"

Regarding prison: No, it wouldn't necessarily turn Faith gay. However, if, as I think, she had latent tendencies toward bisexuality already, lesbian sex in prison could easily have turned "latent" to "active".

Yes, I know irrational has nothing to do with rationality. However, changes in personality--as Willow has had--will affect both the irrational and rational. Willow has shown less of a tendency toward being judgmental this season, due to her experiences. "Selfless", for example. She doesn't go to Anya with a, "You bad person," attitude. She goes in with a, "I know what you're going through, and I want to help you," attitude. Her dislike of Anya, you'll recall, wasn't entirely rational, either. Yet now they're becoming friends.

This also goes to my last argument. Willow has changed. So has Faith. A relationship between them wouldn't have to be abusive in any way.

It's all just speculation, anyway. I'm saying it's possible. That's all.

[> Though is would be interesting -- Deb, 08:38:00 11/16/02 Sat

I don't see Faith as one of the three. I think it will be 3 Dawn-aged girls. My opinion. Better to cast a spin-off: Slayer Academy. I say this in jest, but one thing that Buffy has shown is that a Watcher and her/his Slayer working in secret and alone just doesn't cut it in this postmodernneoapocolyptic world. Personally, I would offer my talents by being cast as an instructor in the *Arts of Sarcasm and Illogical Speech Acts as Weapons". Just think: A dorm full of Slayers-in-Training. Spike could teach various courses including *Sex and the Vampire* I can hear him now when SITs miss curfew:

" Thank God. You scared me half to death . . .or more to death. You, you and especially you - I could kill you. I mean it. I could bloody kill you. I could rip your heads off one-handed and drink from your brain stems. Don't you know what is out there at night? Vampires. That's right. Vampires, Big Bads, just like me. . . Well, maybe not quite as Bad, but they could still slay a mini-Slayer, or two or three. Then what? All the bloody effort and endless time and hear. . .bloody bullshit I've put into whipping your asses into form -- all down the bloody sewers. Can you imagine what it would be like around here? All the wailing, moaning and bloody grief. And I don't even want to think about how the other SITs would react. May as well just throw a bloody chaos demon into the place! You took stakes and crosses with you, right? No! You teach em, and you teach em, and you teach em' again, and what do they do? They go skipping down back allies in the dead of night like they were queens of the bloody Thanksgiving Day Parade! . . . What if you had been sired? Never thought about that did you? Never once considered MY feelings did you? Out of the goodness, and love of my bloody heart, I'd come and dust you nippers myself. Then there is always the possibility that I bloody- well would then have to dust a good friend. See? That's just how much I bloody care. What if all the SITs did this? I'd have to pack a six-pack of bloody dust-busters. Batteries are expensive and you think the bloody joke of a budget would cover them? Not a chance in hell. I'd have to nic the bloody things myself, and I would want the best, the best, bloody batteries for you, and everytime I'd have to make that special trip to the store, and everytime I ripped open the package and dumped the batteries into my pocket, I'd be reminded of your dirty little, tear-streaked faces. You would haunt me you bratty buggers, haunt me. I have feelings too you know. Oh, quit crying. You do this every time because you know I can't stand to see the sight of you bloody weeping all over your shirt sleeves. (chocking up) I have my eye on you three. You don't know what terror is until I start stalking your asses, and don't think I won't make good on my promise to take your heads off the next time you try to sneak in here after curfew. . . Now beat it! Get to your rooms before I get really angry! . . . Oh, hell! Quit your bloody crying would'ga! You're goin to wake up the entire house. You'er SITs for bloody sake! You are strong. You are invinsible! You're bloody mini-slayers you twerps! . . . Oh hell! Anyone for cocoa?
I nicked some marshmellows the other day. You know, the ones shaped like little pink hearts, and green shamrocks. All we have to do it dig em' out of the cereal box. Now come on and stop your whining. . .

Spike heads for the kitchen.

The three SITs stop crying and smile at each other.

"Now we'll make him tell us one of his fairytales!"

"Oh! I want ta hear the one where he saves all the orphans from Lastat and Vittorio and then finds loving homes for all of them!"

"I want to hear the one where he steals Dracula's girlfriend away to win a bet!"

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[> [> Yes. I have every negative quality a human can possess -- Deb, 10:49:38 11/16/02 Sat

and then probably a few extra-special negative qualities I've made up along the way. I'm needy. I'm arrogant. I'm self-absorbed -- a lot. I'm a spoiled b-t-h. And to tell you the truth, I'm not going to beat myself over the head about it either. I'm imperfect and I'm OK. My frosted side is asking you to please read my post above and comment -- good or bad. I can take it. My unfrosted side is giving my frosted side the "Death Stare." My frosted side is telling my unfrosted side to go take a leap off the balcony.

[> [> [> Well, *I* find you rather endearing. -- Honorificus (Demented, Depraved, Delicious), 11:46:05 11/16/02 Sat

I think it would be poetic justice for Spike to have to play Headmaster to a bunch of hormone-crazed, devious adolescent girls. Brilliant idea! I may just have to suck your brain, dear.

[> [> [> Hmmm... -- Sophomorica, munching on the last piece of birthday cake, 12:16:45 11/16/02 Sat

Let's see, as of late:

Four subway "sandwiches" – the F train has the best eating, very literate and tasty morsels to choose from. Afternoons can be slim pickings. Evening rush is best.

Stole lollipops from children twice – lots of fun, listening to the little blokes cry for mommy.

Ate one stray cat. Kinda stringy. Bleah.

The other day, shooting spitballs at prim and proper elderly ladies at the park. Spitballs made from chewed up French dictionary.

This morning, bit Sophie's hand when she tried to give me a bath. That soap-bubble stuff irritates my scales.

[> Something that I'm really looking forward to. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:26:12 11/16/02 Sat

. . .is Faith interacting with Dawn. Think about it: we've never seen the two of them together before, but when the monks created Dawn's memories they must have made some where Faith and Dawn met, so they do have some sort of history together. And, come to think of it, when Faith took Joyce hostage in This Year's Girl, the post-Dawn memories probably have her being a hostage as well, so who knows how that might play out. Then there's the fact that Dawn seemed to be channeling Faith to become the Pushy Queen of Slut Town in Him. And, let's not forget the fact that we have two seperate dream sequences where Faith talks about Dawn before she even exists (the infamous 7-3-0/Little Miss Muffet dream in Graduation Day, and her references to "little sis coming" during her coma fantasy in This Year's Girl).

Granted, I suspect Faith will have volatile and entertaining reactions with all of the Scoobies (or, at least all of them left alive by the time she gets there), but I think Faith and Dawn may be the best, with the possible exception of Faith and Buffy.

[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- pr10n, 09:57:23 11/16/02 Sat

Spec the First: Killing Jonathan gives Morphy access to Jonathan's body, so hey! Mr. Corporeal Evil comes to town. the Scoobs think Jonathan's part of the team, and infiltration ensues. Andrew giggles madlty to himself, since he knows htat Jonathan is reallt his Warren in disguise. "We'll be a god..." Plural = singular? I'm thinking Morhpy gets the best part of that deal.

Spec the Second: Faith and Willow takes me to a place here I do spells alone, so I'm just saluting the good thought and moving along. Although I agree that Willow hates Faith passionately. Grrr-Ruff!

[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- Slain, 11:28:34 11/16/02 Sat

I admit I'd never really considered the Faith/Willow parallels - but when I do, I find I've got a route towards liking Faith.

When I inadvertently heard about her return, my reaction was that Willow should kick her ass right back to the clit- clink; my feelings about Faith have always gone along with Willow's (and, presumably, Willow thinks she kind of hot, too). But now Willow is in no position to judge Faith. It's true that Faith's guilt was substantially delayed - but she reminds me of 'The Wish' Buffy, in that she's hardened through loneliness, and doesn't have the friends to fall back on that Willow has always had. As for a romance between them, who can say? I personally find the idea very tacky, like something out of 'Melrose Place' (which I acknowledge I've never watched, but which probably has that sort of thing in it), but I'd have said the same thing about Buffy and Spike a year and a bit ago, and that confounded my expectations.

So it turns out I, potentially, don't dislike Faith after all. Yay me.

[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- Juliet, 21:24:42 11/16/02 Sat

Melrose Place was all that and much more.

[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast spoiler -- Tyreseus, 14:35:04 11/17/02 Sun

But now Willow is in no position to judge Faith

I think it's the most fascinating aspect of Willow's character this season that she doesn't feel like it's her place to judge anyone. Look how she reacted to the Anyanka killing people thing. I think it's potential for actual character growth of a character on BtVS (as opposed to learning the same self-lesson over and over again and forgetting it). Willow could be the most tolerant person on the planet.

Also, as a somewhat late-coming Buffy fan, my first real introduction to Faith was in "This Year's Girl"/"Who Are You" where what I saw was a girl who was starting to learn the error of her ways. Maybe Faith is going to parallel Jonathon this season - trying to do the right thing and caring about people. It might take the scoobies a while to realize it (none of them really sat down and had a heart-to- heart with her in "Who are you"), but all of them could eventually forgive her.

We've got a lot of characters who might need forgiving (Spike, Jonathon, Faith) this season and some who seem to have been forgiven that may not quite be ready for it (Anya, Willow, Spike?). And let's not forget those who are routinely forgiven just because (Xander, Dawn, Buffy). Love the potential psychological interactions.

Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7, mostly Spike- Spec) -- grifter, 08:49:36 11/16/02 Sat

After having rewatched Lessons and Beneath You recently, and having read most of the recent threads here, I am now absolutely sure that Spike is currently host to three different "minds": Evil!Spike, Good!Spike (William?) and a third unknown entity (maybe Morphy, the Big Bad, but more on that later).

Evil!Spike and Good!Spike seem to take control from each other constantly, as can be witnessed in Beneath You (the scene with Anya in the Bronze and later with Buffy in the alley) especially well.
Evil!Spike seems to want to hide his soul (he attacks Anya after she found out), he teases Buffy like season 2 - 4 Spike would have, and, I suspect, is the one responsible for biting the girl and siring the psycho-vamp in Conversations With Dead People.
Good!Spike on the other hand wants to help Buffy (witnessed in every episode this season up to Conversations With Dead People). He s also guilt-ridden about his (yes, his, not Evil!Spike´s) attempt to rape Buffy in last seasons Seeing Red.
And then we have a third entity, which everyone seemed to assume is Morphy. We see Spike with Morphy in the basement once, but after that never again. He is sometimes talking to a third entity (Beneath You), but there is no reason to believe this to be Morphy. He says that the third entity wanted him to have a soul (Beneath You), so my question is: why would Morphy want him to have a soul? To manipulate him? He has shown in Conversations With Dead People that he doesn´t need a person to be mad to manipulate her/him. Soul- less Spike would have been easier to corrupt I think. No Good!Spike to constantly tell Buffy about his madness and (literally) screaming for help!

Now on to something else I have noticed: in Beneath You Good!Spike hurts a recently de-wormified human. At first it appears that his head hurts, as it should, but suddenly his expression changes from pain to surprise. Is he just surprised that the worm just turned into a human? No, I don´t think so. The pain would have been much to short and not severe enough. I have recently re-watched Smashed, were he also inadvertently attacks a human. He crumbles to the floor, holding his head for most of the scene, and that was just for punching a human! It should be even worse for putting an through him I think. So, I conclude, the chip hasn´t been working right for quite some time. The reason why combines my two statements:

I speculate that the third entity within Spike is in fact NOT Morphy. It is a force of good that wanted him to get a soul and wanted him to guard the basement (or rather, that which Andrew and Jonathan uncovered under it). For this, it removed the chips effects (so he could protect it from humans), not counting on Buffy moving him out and unleashing Evil!Spike on Sunnydale. Also, the chip not working may prove crucial in the end when he may have to go up against human Scoobies. According to the "first episode describes whole season"-theory, he´ll have to help in the fight against Buffy or Willow/Giles/Xander(however this will be motivated remains to be seen, I´ll leave my theories on this out of this spec for now).

And, if I´m wrong and the third entity is indeed Morphy, then why did he want Spike to get a soul? This season gets curioser and curioser the more you think about it...

So, either comment on this (which I would love), or wait for next week´s Buffy to completely rip my theory to shreds (which i would, well, also love, because, as history proves, ME always gets it better then my wildest speculations).

[> Re: Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7, mostly Spike-Spec) -- Dariel, 11:20:34 11/16/02 Sat

In the church scene in BY, Spike says to Buffy something like "I thought this was what you wanted," then looks up and says "it's what you wanted." Not verbatim, but close enough. The implication is that he's talking to God when he looks up, not to Morphy or to some other entity inside him.

When he tells Buffy about all of the entities in his head, he refers to "him," "it," and the "other thing, the thing beneath." The most obvious interpretation is that he's talking about William, his demon side, and Morphy. Particularly since he says that they're all telling him to "go to hell." Can't imagine a "good" entity telling him that.

So, there's no evidence from BY that there's a good entity in his head getting him to guard the Hellmouth. Even so, I kind of like your theory about there being a good entity in the mix. Andrew does show up to perform his ritual sacrifice of Jonathan the week after Spike leaves the basement. And Spike, though crazy, at least appeared to do only good things while a basement dweller; now he's out and apparently killing.

Guess we have to wait to find out--arggh!

[> [> Re: Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7, mostly Spike-Spec) -- Bluestar, 18:48:38 11/16/02 Sat

Spike has to many people in his head regardless
me-spike/willam good bad or wahatever
It-the demonSpike and its urges bloodlust
the thing beneath just what it says
if the BBW was controling the summers electronic systems spikes chip would be easy

i think spike and william could deal without insanity since william was invited by spike.
the other is an uninvited and unwelcome intrerloper and one presonality to many for theinside of one head

Can Dawn be THAT stupid? -- wiscoboy, 10:42:00 11/16/02 Sat

After all that happened in S5 & at the end of S6, are the writers really going to regress Dawn back into simple stupidity when it concerns Buffy? I should hope that the scoobies(including Dawn) can put 2+2 together, especially with what Willow went thru. BTW, do you think anyone will ask Dawn what happened to the house(thus encouraging discussion concerning "Deceiver-Joyce")?

[> That crossed my mind too just as the windows blew in. -- Deb, 10:58:51 11/16/02 Sat

"Dawn. You better tell me you had a party here, a big party that spilled out into the yard and onto the street, and that, that there are empty beer cans and liquour bottles and pizza delivery boxes under the rubble. And, and there were boys, much older boys. Actually men. Perverted men. And you got drunk, very, very drunk. So drunk you passed out, and you don't remember a thing after the police came to the door and told you to turn down the loud, very, very loud music. Now Dawn, look me straight in the eyes and tell me this is what happened."

[> [> LOL! Only on the Hellmouth could this be the preferred story! -- Dariel, 11:25:07 11/16/02 Sat

Although I can't figure where the "perverted men" fit in?!

[> [> [> Re: LOL! Only on the Hellmouth could this be the preferred story! -- Philistine, 20:38:49 11/16/02 Sat

Although I can't figure where the "perverted men" fit in?!

Well, that's obviously on account of your youth and innocence. I am not going to be the one to fill you in on the birds and the bees - you should ask your folks about that.


[> [> [> [> Re: LOL! Only on the Hellmouth could this be the preferred story! -- Dariel, 10:44:58 11/17/02 Sun

Well, that's obviously on account of your youth and innocence.

Sigh--I'm a bit too old to have much of that left. Was mostly trying to tease Deb, since the perverted men were hardly necessary to tear the house apart. An embellishment, so to speak.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, yeah -- Philistine, 19:19:30 11/17/02 Sun

Hey, no problem. It's not that I didn't know what you meant, it's just that I just went to a very bad mental place when I read your post. So I thought I'd try to share the fun.

[> [> A frustrated Fanfic Writer runs with this particular pair of scissors... (speccy spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 22:22:14 11/16/02 Sat

[The scene we may or may never see next Tuesday]

BUFFY enters the Summers home. What's left of it. It's early morning. Buffy looks tired and a little frayed around the edges from her battle with Holden Webster and the realization that Spike's up to no good. Again. The place is in a shambles. Dawn's still unconscious on the floor.

BUFFY just stands there. She looks in shock. Her eyes slowly try to drink in the room soberly. Camera cuts to show us a pan view of what she's seeing. Practically every light fixture and household appliance in the living area is trashed. Weaponry and candles and broken furniture and debris are strewn about the room, in a way that makes the episode "Dead Man's Party" look like a bridal shower.

BUFFY: (to self) How am I gonna pay for all of this? I can't pay for all of this!

She crosses slowly and looms over the stirring body of Dawn.

BUFFY: Dawn. Dawn!

Dawn groans. Buffy kneels down and touches Dawn on the shoulder.


DAWN reacts as if she's having a nightmare about the previous evening's events. She throws a meek punch Buffy's way and begins screaming.

Buffy sees Dawn's face for the first time. It's puffy around the lips and there's a gash on one cheek. Dawn has not yet realized this is Buffy. She's far too out of it to make out familiar faces at this point. She's still half asleep.

DAWN: No! Get away! Leave mommy alone! No!

Dawn meekly crawls away from Buffy towards the sofa. She's retreating but barely has the strength to move on her hands and knees. Buffy kneels there, looking after Dawn, whose eyes look glazed over like she's still in a dream. Buffy's face is one of utter bewilderment.

Buffy stands up.

We see Dawn weakly try to climb up onto the sofa. She instead collapses to the floor.

Buffy goes to say something. Then she stops herself. Then she opens her mouth again. Brief pause.

BUFFY: Dawn. You better tell me you had a party here, a big party that spilled out into the yard and onto the street, and that, that there are empty beer cans and liquour bottles and pizza delivery boxes under all this rubble.

Buffy stops. Dawn's only response is sobbing, curled up in a fetal position. Very slowly, Buffy crosses towards Dawn.

BUFFY: And, and there were boys, much older boys. Actually men. Perverted men. And you got drunk, very, very drunk. So drunk you passed out, and you don't remember a thing after the police came to the door and told you to turn down the loud, very, very loud music.

Buffy kneels down and tries to help Dawn to her feet.

BUFFY: Now Dawn, look me straight in the eyes and tell me this is what happened.

Dawn's glazed over eyes focus on Buffy for a second as Buffy lifts Dawn to her feet. A look of sheer horror explodes on her face.

DAWN: YOU! Mommy warned me! You turn against me!

BUFFY: Dawnie?

DAWN: (attempts to push away) Let go of me!

Since Buffy's Buffy, and Dawn's comparatively far too weak to push Buffy away, Dawn instead pushes herself away and lands on the sofa, about where Joyce fell when she died.

Camera cuts to show us what Dawn sees. When she lands on the sofa, she turns her head away from the camera and we see white-eyed zombie Joyce sitting in the sofa next to Dawn. Joyce looks over. Dawn screams.

BUFFY: Dawnie calm down!

Dawn screams again, she jumps off the sofa as if she landed on a tack, falls again to the floor and crawls over rubble and debris towards the stairs. Buffy just stares after her.

Joyce has disappeared. Buffy never saw her.

BUFFY: (To herself) The only thing that'd make this worse is a visit by Child Protective Services right this very--

There's a knock on the door. Dawn darts her face towards the door and gives a brief shriek.

Camera cuts to the door, now ajar and slowly opening with a creaking sound. Revealed behind it after a few seconds of suspense is Xander.

XANDER: (all smiles. He's seen this before) Rough night, eh?

Dawn gets to her feet, leaning against the stairway railing like a newly born fawn. She looks relieved.

DAWN: Xander!

Camera cuts to show Buffy & Xander look at each other. Buffy shrugs. Xander looks confused.

Dawn pushes away from the stairs, and limping, does her best to rush into his arms.

DAWN: Oh, Xander! P-p-p-please take me away from here! Please.

Buffy takes one step towards them.

BUFFY: Dawnie--

At the sound of her footstep & voice, Dawn repositions herself so that she's using Xander as a shield between her and Buffy.

DAWN: Keep her away from me!

Xander looks down at Dawnie's face now partly in his armpit, then back at Buffy. A sudden look of realization and repulsion crosses his face.

XANDER: Was she bad? This your idea of a spanking?

BUFFY: What?

XANDER: Slayer strength got a bit out of hand, again?


XANDER: Like when you tried to kill us before?

BUFFY: No, Xander I-

XANDER: STOP. Just. Just don't say another word.

BUFFY: It was LIKE this when I--


There's a pause. Xander & Buffy just look at each other. Xander looks at Buffy as if he knows exactly what happened. He's completely wrong but he has no way of knowing that. Buffy looks at Xander as if her best friend has just accused her of harming her sister. She's mortified.

Dawn's trembling and having trouble holding on. Xander puts his arms around Dawn. He looks away from Buffy and turns his back on her.

XANDER: Come on. I'll take you home.

DAWN: (meek. breathless.) Thank you. Thank you.

They exit. Buffy looks about the room in disbelief.

End of scene.

[> [> [> Poor Xander. He has to take everyone home. -- Deb, 10:24:48 11/17/02 Sun

[> [> [> Nicely done... -- Dariel, 10:41:02 11/17/02 Sun

And so painful! You've got the ME angst-filled touch down.

[> Stupidity, dear, isn't a factor. -- HonorH, 11:39:51 11/16/02 Sat

The BBW got Dawn down to a state of raw exhaustion through making her believe she had to rescue her mother's soul. Then it presented her with the person she most wanted to see telling her something truly devastating. It isn't stupidity, any more than Willow initially believing Cassie was Tara's intermediary was stupid. Furthermore, keep in mind no one knows at this point what everyone else went through.

As for the house, the likelihood is that Willow and/or Buffy will come home, see the mess, find a sobbing Dawn, and ask (not unreasonably) what happened. Dawn will tell them a demon was there, and she had to cast it out. She will *not* initially tell them about Joyce--after all, how's she supposed to tell Buffy, "By the way, our mother thinks you're going to betray me"? However, upon hearing about Willow's ordeal, Dawn may confide in her, and Willow would help her figure it out. I certainly hope so. They've already done a Summers sisters estrangement, and it was painful enough the first time.

Please don't accuse Dawn of being stupid until she actually does something stupid. It gets us Dawn Defenders (who think she needs one very big hug or three right now) all panty- bunchy.

[> [> Re: Stupidity, dear, isn't a factor. -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:15:07 11/16/02 Sat

Also, given that she had to cast out a demonic looking thing to get in contact with Joyce, Dawn has every reason to believe that the ghost of her mother was the real deal. If she avoids telling Buffy, I think it'll probably be because, well, hearing about such a thing being said by your own mother is way up there on the list of "information damaging to one's psyche".

[> [> [> Re: Stupidity, dear, isn't a factor. -- KKC, 16:33:52 11/16/02 Sat

Even more importantly, we as observers don't know that the Joyce who communicated with Dawn wasn't the real deal. If it was, Joyce may be compelled (or required) to communicate her warning cryptically, as a riddle or other misleading verbiage. I always think the dead lose their ability to use language, and so when they return to the world of the living they forget how to speak clearly. But I digress.

What if, when the big climactic battle comes, Buffy is coerced into making the wrong decision? It may fall to Dawn, whom Buffy has chosen to oppose, to make the hard choice and make the tough sacrifice to save the world. This may involve the killing of a loved one and a Sarah MacLachlan song. Or it may involve stairs. :)

-KKC, who loves it when some form of media lasts long enough to create its own stereotypes.

[> [> You go, HonorH, with the defending-Dawn- iness! -- Rob, 14:35:17 11/16/02 Sat

[> Stupidity depends on the final analysis -- Cleanthes, 11:03:41 11/17/02 Sun

It occurs to me that the difficulties of Dawn will be greater if she confides in Willow, say, what "Joyce" told her, and Willow convinces her that "Joyce" was a deceiver, and then it turns out it really was Joyce and Buffy is NOT reliable.

That is, NOT to take this warning seriously is the actual stupidity.

TV Guide's description for this Tuesday; doing some background research, Part I (spoilers???) -- Sophie, 10:51:48 11/16/02 Sat

I expect most of you unspoiled people read TV Guide's weekly episode descriptions. I do anyway. This weeks reads as follows:

As Dawn and Willow recover from their chaotic night at the Summers house, Buffy probes a series of grisly murders that may be the work of Spike. Aimee Mann appears and performs “Pavlov's Bell.”

Now this got me curious. I had heard of Pavlov's Bell (probably in sociology theory class), but not really remembering much, thought I would go look around the web for some details. Below is what I found and pasted here. The first part is the basic explanation, then a gig about Schrodinger's cat with Pavlov's dog (amusing), and finally (in part II), two sets of lyrics for the song. My apologies for the length.


What Pavlov's Bell is:

Bekhterev's and Watson's research used a bell as a conditioned stimulus. the bell became identified with conditioning in the United States because of the notoriety Watson achieved as a result of championing conditioning as the major source of habit formation and learning.

Now, for something funny:

Schrodinger's cat and Pavlov's dog

Featuring an adaption of a league of gentlemen sketch and another classic from Eddie Izzard

Schrodingers cat
An adaption of the league of gentlemen drinking game sketch
Schrodinger is in the pub with his mates playing a drinking game
MW: ...aspara-
*3: Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!
SD: Forfeit! Forfeit! Ha-ha-ha-ha!
Schrodinger: It was carrots.
JT: Ah. Now, get it roight this time, cos I'm dyin' o' thirst over 'ere.
SD: Right. Ding-ding! Round two!
MW: Tomato - what - aubergine - would - potato - you - turnip - like - carrots -
to - asparagus - drink?
SD: Oh-ho-ho!
JT: Tomato - pint... aubergine - of - potato - best - turnip - please!
*4: A-ha! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
[MW goes off to get the drinks. Schrodingers assistant appears at the door, looking around
for Schrodinger. When he finds him, he leans down to Schrodinger's ear to say quietly...]
Schrodinger assistant: Schrodinger, there's something I need to speak to you about.
SD: Oi nominate Schrodingers assistant.
Schrodingers assistant: Sorry?
*3: No! No, no, no!
JT: Forfeit! Forfeit! You 'ave to say tomato.
Schrodingers assistant: I beg your pardon?
*2: A-ha-ha!
SD: You've got to put a vegetable in front of each word, in the right order.
JT: Look - this is 'ow it goes, roight? Tomatoes - aubergine - potato - turnip -
carrot - asparagus, then you add one o' your own, and then it's back to tomatoes again.
Schrodingers assistant: Yes, I'm sorry, I really have no idea what you're talking...
*3: Warrgh! No! Ha-ha-ha!
SD: Forfeit! Forfeit!
JT: Tomato - you - aubergine - have - potato - to - turnip - say - carrot -
the - asparagus - roight - broccoli - vegetables!
SD: Ha-ha-ha! Or-o-or, aubergine - it's - potato - a - turnip - forfeit.
Schrodinger:It's a drinking game, sor.
Schrodingers assistant: Look Schrodinger, I really do need-
*3 Barrrgh! Forfeit!
Schrodingers assistant: It's, er, I'm very sorry, under normal circumstances - believe you me - I-I would like nothing more than to, er, join you in your game, but... not tonight, please.
Schrodinger: Go on, sor, go on. Go on - it'll be a bit o' fun, sor.
Schrodingers assistant: Yes, Scrodinger, really, I must
MW: Tomato - 'ere's - aubergine - your - potato - drinks.
SD: It's all roight - we got a new nominee.
MW: Wahey!
SD: Ha-ha-ha!
Schrodinger assistant: It's a private matter
*3: BONG! Wa-ha-ha! Wahey!
[pause as Schrodingers assistant finally admits defeat, and decides to play along...]
Schrodingers assistant: Er, er, tomato - it's - aubergine - a... potato - private - turnip - matter.
*2: A-ha!
JT: See? You're gettin' the 'ang of it, now. That's roight!
Schrodinger: That's right - don't be embarrassed, sor. Go on, it's just a little bit o' fun.
[pause as Schrodingers assistant gulps back a shot of whisky to pluck up courage...]
Schrodingers assitant: Tomato - Schrodinger... aubergine - your... potato - cat's... turnip - dead.
[Schrodinger is grinning widely, until the word "dead", when it drops like a stone!
the others are all instantly subdued and look down at their feet]
Schrodinger assistant: Erm, I'm sorry. I really am sorry. Erm, I mean, tomato sorry.

Pavlov's cat
I have found a web site that introduces the idea of Shroedinger's Dog, a creature so stupid it has difficulty being in one state at a time let alone in two states simultaneously. When put into a box with a decaying vial of poison which might or might not release the poison, Shroedinger's Dog chewed the vial thus ensuring it ended up in a dead state every time.
Eddie Izzard introduces the idea of Pavlov's cat in his show the definite article:
"Finally tonight I want to talk about this Russian guy called Pavlov, Pavlov, 1904 Pavlov's dog. That's what he's famous for. He did an experiment where he rung bells and dogs would eat food and he proved that dogs had ears. It was always in question before. And he wrote up his experiment.
Day 1 Rang bell, dog ate food, very excited, very excited indeed.
Day 2 Rang bell slightly louder dog eat slightly more food, very excited, have become Welsh.
Day 3 Prefere to be Welsh and so continue in that vein. Rang loads of bells, dog eats tonnes of food and then explodes. Publish results and then win noble dog prize at cruffs.
But he never published his cat results did he. Yes his cat results would of just of let him down badly. They where hushed up heavily in the KGB files.
Pavlov's cat results:
Day 1: Rang bell, cat f*cked off, oh dear.
Day 2: Rang bell, cat went and answered door
Day 3: Rang bell, cat said he'd eaten earlier cheeky bugger
Day4: Went to ring bell, but cat had stolen batteries
Final day Day 5: Went to ring bell with new batteries, but cat put paw on bell so it only made a thunk noise. Then cat rang his own bell, I ate food.


[> TV Guide's description for this Tuesday; doing some background research, Part II (spoilers???) -- Sophie, 10:53:20 11/16/02 Sat

the song lyrics (two versions):


Pavlov's Bell

Oh Maria
Sit here by the window
Stay here ...
And when we go, hold my hand, I'll take off
Tell me what I already know

That we can't talk about it
No we can't talk about it
Because ... and someone nearly fell
... and ringing Pavlov's Bell
History shows there's not a chance in hell

But ... we're only two ...
It's going
I won't let it show
... denial

That we could talk about it
But we could talk about it
Because nobody knows
... and ringing Pavlov's Bell
history shows ...

Well, well, well

Oh ... if this is nothing
I'm finding it's so hard to dismiss

only you can save me
so come on baby give me ...

and let's just talk about it
I've got to talk about it
Because nobady knows
somebody nearly fell
and ringing PB
history shows

so tell me
that's how I nearly fell
by ringing PB
so baby show and tell
Oh ...(?)

from: avlov%27s+bell

Pavlov's Bell

Oh Mario - Sit here by the window
Stay here till we reach Idaho
And when we go, hold my hand on takeoff
Tell me what I already know
That we can't talk about it
No, we can't talk about it

Because nobody knows
That's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows there's not a chance in hell

But oh Mario - We're only to Ohio
It's kinda getting harder to breathe
I won't let it show -
I'm all about denial
But can't denial let me believe
That we could talk about?
But we can't talk about it

Because nobody knows
That's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows, but rarely shows it well
Well, well, well...

Oh Mario - why if this is nothing
I'm finding it so hard to dismiss
If you're what I need then only you can save me
So come on baby - give me the fix
And let's just talk about it
I've got to talk about it

Because nobody knows
that's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows, like it was show and tell
So tell me Mario


[> [> Yes! -- Deb, 11:04:29 11/16/02 Sat

Stimulus/Response. Thanks for the lyrics!

[> [> Re: TV Guide's description for this Tuesday; doing some background research, Part II (spoilers???) -- MaeveRigan, 13:16:13 11/16/02 Sat

Listen to the song on Aimee Mann's website, here:

Oh, good grief, buy the album! :-)

[> The next epp seems to be Spike-centric, Spike may be referenced to song title..... -- Briar Rose, 15:06:54 11/16/02 Sat

It is also pretty obvious that Willow and Dawn will have to talk about what happened in CWDP. Now how much they actually share will be the interesting part. But I doubt that Willow or Dawn NOT mention the evilness of the final messages. Wilow tends to "tell all" even when she shouldn't and Dawn is still too whiny not to blurt that Buffy hates her, "even Mom told me so!"

My odds are on them figuring out that both manifestations are from the same BB/Morphy and they will make sure that they work on spells to un-mask it for future use. OMO

[> [> Dawn -- meritaten, 16:05:01 11/16/02 Sat

Whether it was the BB or actually Joyce that spoke to Dawn, it made a huge impression on a young girl who still desperately misses her mother. Also, she, unlike the others, had to fight the "real" demon to hear her mother's message. I couldn't blame her for believeing that it WAS indeed Joyce that spoke to her. I'm not yet convinvced that it wasn't.

I think that Dawn will withhold the information 'Joyce' gave her, and, only at the end of the season will she truly evaluate it.

[> [> Dawn's not whiny! -- HonorH (with pushed button), 19:37:32 11/16/02 Sat

No whining this year, except under a love spell! And no way is she going to volunteer the information that "Joyce" gave her.

(still wishing we could exorcise the word "whiny" from the board . . .)

[> [> [> No, she's just expressive! -- Dariel, 10:34:02 11/17/02 Sun

You know, the Scoobies, especially Buffy, aren't so big with the emoting. They all hold things back. So Dawn just seems whiny, or overly emotional perhaps, because she actually expresses what she feels in the moment.

Sort of like how some people called Amber Benson "fat." She, a rather normal-sized young woman, could only seem fat when compared with the other "extremely slender" (to use a polite term) actresses on BtVS.

[> [> [> [> Okay - how about "overwrought", HonorH?*S* -- Briar Rose, 14:43:10 11/17/02 Sun

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