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More Connor and Dawn bonding conversation (spoilers for AtS 4.7 and BtVS 7.7) -- Masq, 07:24:25 11/18/02 Mon

Previously on the Dawn and Connor show: our two intrepid teenaged heroes bonded over the mysterious circumstances of their "births" and the heavy identity issues it creates for them. And now, for this week's episode:

Dawn: "So hey, we got a big scary evil coming to town."
Connor: "Yeah? So do we. Does yours have horns?"
Dawn: "I'm not sure yet. It just popped up all scary on the couch where my mother died."
Connor: "Really? Ours popped up all scary on the ground where my mother died, too."
Dawn: "Did you fight it? I screamed at it a lot. It was part of a spell."
Connor: "Of course I fought it! Only, I used my bad temper and my vampire-like strength."
Dawn: "You should have seen me. I told it 'That's right! Die, you bastard!' Cussing and everything!"
Connor: "I shouted, too. Except I said, 'Stay away from her!'--her being Cordelia? You know Cordelia?--anyway, the thing backed off and just shot up into the sky! Of course, it broke a couple of my ribs and I had blood in my mouth."
Dawn: "I had blood in my mouth, too! Isn't that the grossest thing?"
Connor: "Yeah.... Say, do you get along with your dad?
Dawn: Not really. Mine never speaks to me. Well, hardly ever."
Connor: "Mmm. Me? I never speak to him. Well, hardly ever."
Dawn: "Fathers suck."
Connor: "Well, mine sure does."

[> Re: ROTFWL -- Brian, 08:04:26 11/18/02 Mon

Thanks for the Monday morning humor. Reminded me of Mad magazine's "Scenes we'd like to see."

I got three words for Wesley: (spoilers for AtS "Rain of Fire") -- ZachsMind, 07:58:26 11/18/02 Mon

I got three words for Wesley: Rocket Missile Launcher. Ooh he thought he was so bad bringing a few guns to the knife fight, didn't he? Looked cool. Then he gets his butt kicked anyway. And what was the deal with Angel *bleeding* out of his jugular and breathing hard as if he was dying? I mean. He's DEAD. That whole Big Bad battle looked good from a cinematography standpoint but it made no continuity sense whatsoever.

I still agree it shoulda been called "Apocalypse Nowish" instead of "Rain of Fire." Y'all's thoughts?

[> if you read my Devil May Cry thread below -- neaux, 08:51:28 11/18/02 Mon

you will hear of my parallels to Wesley and Dante (video game character) from Devil May Cry.

and is it ironic or foreshadowing that Wes was given Dante's Inferno as a book from Darla. If last nites big demon was a nod to the videogame I would consider it foreshadowing.

[> In defense of Angel -- LadyStarlight, 08:58:37 11/18/02 Mon

And what was the deal with Angel *bleeding* out of his jugular and breathing hard as if he was dying? I mean. He's DEAD.

Okay, here goes.

It's been fairly well established in the Jossverse that if a vampire is stabbed, cut, hit, etc., they bleed. So the jugular bleeding made perfect sense to me.

And the breathing hard? Well, he had just been stabbed and thrown off a rather high building. (shrugs) I might pant a bit too, after that. ;)

[> [> David Boreanaz' acting -- Masq, 09:15:49 11/18/02 Mon

This has always been a staple of David Boreanaz' acting. He gets a lot of mileage out of gasping. When he gets defeated in battle, when he's in agony, etc, etc. From any other actor, it would be great acting. It is great acting. Problem is, coming from him in this role, it always kind of bugs.

But Spike sometimes gasps, too. I think it's a reflex left over from being formerly human and still having lungs that function well enough to smoke and talk.

[> Re: I got three words for Wesley: (spoilers for AtS "Rain of Fire") -- anom, 10:19:47 11/18/02 Mon

I was watching him walk towards the demon as he fired the shotgun & thinking: "Oh, no. Even if he seems to be hurt by the shots, don't get in arm's reach of him!" I mean, this thing never even fell down! You'd think Wes would know better.

neaux, does Dante in Devil May Cry know better? @>)

[> [> Re: I got three words for Wesley: (spoilers for AtS "Rain of Fire") -- Tess, 11:46:17 11/18/02 Mon

Yeah but Gunn went one on one with him so maybe Wes was just proving he could be as foolishly heroic as Gunn.

[> [> [> Re: I got three words for Wesley: (spoilers for AtS "Rain of Fire") -- JM, 16:05:57 11/18/02 Mon

I think he didn't really care. If he was borderline suicidal in "Loyalty" I imagine he's well beyond it now. He hasn't shown a flicker of fear about anything (and hardly much of caring) since the end of "Forgiving." (StB doesn't count LOL.) Someone up thread mentioned Wes looking like he was having too much fun this ep, just under the surface. I could buy that, I imagine he'd love a chance to go out fighting, as opposed to lying helpless on the ground.

[> [> [> [> And, lest we forget -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:12:53 11/18/02 Mon

And, lest we forget, there are very few creatures in the Buffyverse which aren't at least injured by bullets.

[> [> no. Dante just kicks ass and takes names. -- neaux, 11:51:04 11/18/02 Mon

[> SNL Ninjas (spoilers) -- Shiraz, 14:27:45 11/18/02 Mon

I loved the climactic battle scene, but was I the only one who was reminded of the old SNL 'Ninjas' skit with John Goodman?


Begin SCENE:

Angel, Gunn, Lorne, and Wesley limp back into the Hyperion Lobby nursing their wounds. Angel steps up to a blackboard while Gunn, Lorne, and Wesley sink into chairs in front of it.

ANGEL: Alright, gang, (gesturing to a picture on the board, showing four small circles with arrows pointing from them towards a larger circle in the center)how were we SUPPOSED to attack him?

GUNN, LORNE, WES (in unison, dejectedly): All together.

ANGEL: (flipping over the blackboard, revealing another picture showing one small circle with an arrow pointed towards a big circle) How DID we attack him?

GUNN, LORNE, WES (again in unison, more dejectedly): One at a time...


Or maybe it was just me.


Song for Spike and friend in 7.7 (...just some fun stuff...) --
fearshade, 09:27:13 11/18/02 Mon

For some reason this song popped into my head as I was re- watching CwPD's Spike sequence....Note-This is a '65 song, I'm not that old...LOL)

The Spider and The Fly
by the Rolling Stones

Sittin' thinkin' sinkin' drinkin'
Wond'ring what I'll do when I'm through tonight
Smokin' mopin' maybe just hopin'
Some little girl will pass on by
To wanna be alone
But I love my girl at home
I remember what she said
She said My! My! My!
Don't tell lies!
Keep fidelity in your head!
My! My! My! Don't tell lies!
When you've done your show go to bed
Don't say Hi! like a spider to a fly
Jump right ahead and you're dead!

Sit up fed up low down go round
Down to the bar at the place I'm at
Sittin' drinkin' superficially thinkin'
About the rins'd out blonde on my left
Then I said Hi! like a spider to a fly
Remeb'ring what my little girl said
She was coming flirty
She looked about thirty
I would have run away, but I was on my own
She told me later she's a machine operator
She said she liked the way I held the microphone
I said My! My! My! like a spider to a fly
Jump right ahead in my web!

[> Fitting for sure. -- Deb, 09:50:33 11/18/02 Mon

[> [> *ugh, pfft, pssh* Dude, that song is like, SO not fitting...<drip, drip> -- Harry Parachute, 12:33:14 11/18/02 Mon

...I mean the rins'd out blond was on his RIGHT. :P /sarcasm.

Just funnin'.

Nice catch, fearshade. Now I gotta go and find this song somehow...always liked the Stones anywho.

ARGGG! Missed all the action! (Spoilers for Apocolypse Nowish or Rain of Fire?) -- sTalking Goat, 09:42:42 11/18/02 Mon

My girlfriend stopped by at my house at the most inconvenient time. I missed everything between Lorne saying "I need a bigger arrow" (cut to commercial) and Cordy giving Connor that speil about him not having anything, and it doesn't matter anymore, so lets have sex. (Gotta love that pity sex...)

Anyone know of a rip of this episode on FTP or something. I don't have broadband at home and my connection is so inconsistent it would take me forever to get it off P2P. and at work where I ahve T1 speeds at my disposal I.T. would freak out if I tried to run Kaaza.
The quality doesn't have to be great. I just want to see the damn gun fight.

[> Re: ARGGG! Missed all the action! (Spoilers for Apocolypse Nowish or Rain of Fire?) -- Mackenzie, 11:38:25 11/18/02 Mon

I can't help you but I do have two suggestions.
Dump the girl, doesn't she know when Angel is on?
Get Tivo!

[> [> Re: ARGGG! Missed all the action! (Spoilers for Apocolypse Nowish or Rain of Fire?) -- sTalking Goat, 14:56:08 11/18/02 Mon

1)God bless her, but she has a memory like a sieve.

2)Seriously if I could afford a Tivo, Then I could get a VCR. Being a poor college student really sucks.

I just created a poll...Please vote! -- Rob, 09:50:35 11/18/02 Mon

I'm currently thinking of a small site redesign at the "Annotated Buffy" and I put up two samples, one being the old look, two being the possibly new look. I'd like an opinion on whether I should leave it the way it is or use the new look. Please vote! It will be very helpful in my final decision!


Btw, the "When She Was Bad" thread is still alive and kickin' farther down on the page, so if you'd like to contribute some annotations, please go down there and do so! Thanks a million!


I need a bigger arrow (Spoilers for Rain of Fire included) -- Tess, 09:56:45 11/18/02 Mon

After watching a second time, I have to go on record saying I really enjoyed this episode, but I'm baised because I've never seen an Angel I didn't like.

I already mentioned it but it just completely struck me as a huge step in character development that Lorne fought the beast. Lorne went from not wanting to even think about the coming war to being the one to prod Angel and the others to get out there and start investigating. He is really stepping up this season as being the force that is holding the tattered remnants of AI together.

Also loved seeing a proactive Angel. Agree with Lorne that we needed more explanation beyond fire and destruction on exactly what the symbol (can't remember what they called it) was for, but given the situation they had no choice but to go into battle. Any speculation on what that fire funnel thing did? Did it open up the gates between dimensions or was it just a fancy way to kill a bunch of people?

And what a battle it was. The men of AI look good kicking butt even when its their butts getting kicked. Question though...did the beast deflect those arrows with a physical block or a magical wave of his hand, and was anyone else out there screaming "Not the heart!" when they deflected into Angel?

I did find it odd that Conner and Cordy went back to their love shack after encountering the beast. I guess I'm still expecting the old Cordy who would have run straight to Angel with the info and than gone back out into the heat of the battle. This new, unimproved version of Cordy just doesn't make sense. My theory is the ptb (or maybe the big bad) planted the suggestion that she needed to severe ties with Angel and get physical with Conner. And somehow the three of them are connected to the beast. It's all connected...oh wait that's the other show. Another possible theory was she saw the return of Angelus and figured their love is what caused it and that's why she broke up with Angel. Or maybe Conner had a Cordybot made.

And Conner's 'Dad, please' melted me as I'm sure it did Angel. And than Angel's face in his last scene. Geez, ME just won't let these two enjoy a nano-second of bonding before tearing them apart again.

The last image of Lilah struck me as the evil lawyer lady was doing some serious praying. And I'm left thinking 'what am I going to do between now and January.'

[> Re: I need a bigger arrow (Spoilers for Rain of Fire included) -- sTalking Goat, 10:03:51 11/18/02 Mon

was it just me of was there more than just a little jealousy coming from Lilah in that scene with her and Wesley? That must have really hurt when he told her to keep the glasses on.

[> [> Re: I need a bigger arrow (Spoilers for Rain of Fire included) -- Tess, 10:19:46 11/18/02 Mon

Yeah a lot of jealousy and hurt, but Lilah was the one that taunted Wesley with his feelings for Fred and put herself in that situation by dressing up like Fred so I don't feel too sorry for her. Actually I feel sorry for her in that a woman as hot and powerful as Lilah would feel so insecure as to be jealous of Fred in the first place. But this is getting to close to revealing my personal opinion of Fred, so I'll stop.

[> [> [> "One day if I'm good and eat all my vegetables, maybe I'll have hips." -- sTalking Goat, 10:32:36 11/18/02 Mon

thats classic...

I missed last week's ep, so maybe I'm missing something. Fred finds out the prof sent her to Pilea, she decides to kill him but I'm guessing Gunn won't help,so she goes to Wesley for help. Wesley helps in some way. Before Fred does the deed Gunn interrupts and does it for her. I'm guessing Gunn has killed some people before so this isn't a life shattering thing for him. Fred goes cold. So what is she upset about, that Gunn took her revenge from her, or that Gunn cold-bloodedly murdered a man, which is what she had planned to do. I feel that I'm missing something...

[> [> [> [> ME and Amy Acker -- Masq, 10:57:26 11/18/02 Mon

Rarely an episode goes by when some character on the show doesn't make a snide remark about Fred's figure. She's called "twig" and "stick" and "stick-figure" and many other things, even by Gunn, who's supposed to love her and be hot for her.

I'm not sure what ME is doing this for. If they want to make a social comment about how women should not look as skinny as Fred, they could do it in a way that would be better for Amy Acker's ego. Not to mention the fact that Amy just comes upon that body naturally, not through the Hollywood starvation diet.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: ME and Amy Acker -- celticross, 13:54:00 11/18/02 Mon

Not to mention that certain actresses on that other ME show (the one with the funny title) are rather on the twiggish side. Good point, Masq...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yet no one complains. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:20:09 11/18/02 Mon

When the Drew Carey Show makes fat jokes. Granted, I'm guessing that a lot of people here don't watch that show, but still, if fat jokes are acceptable, I'd think that skinny jokes would be too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> double standard -- sTalking Goat, 15:03:40 11/18/02 Mon


Fat jokes are acceptable if Fat people make them. Its ok to make a joke if you belong to the oppressed class that your're joking about.

Skinny jokes are acceptable because skinny is seen as desirable. Its ok to joke about people that you secretly aspire to be like.

These are basic double standards of American society.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: double standard -- Naomi, 17:18:31 11/19/02 Tue

No one is ever making comments about the leads weight problems. Seriously David is kind of chunky and that is relevent to the plot as he spent the summer starving supposedly yet doens't look it. I don't see why it is okay to insult someone as gorgeous as Fred but not have any fat jokes. Fred has a figure to die for with hardly an ounce of spare fat. What's so bad about that? Maybe the writers are jealous because she looks hotter than them.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: ME and Amy Acker -- Sheri, 17:40:45 11/18/02 Mon

"I'm not sure what ME is doing this for. If they want to make a social comment about how women should not look as skinny as Fred, they could do it in a way that would be better for Amy Acker's ego. Not to mention the fact that Amy just comes upon that body naturally, not through the Hollywood starvation diet."

They probably feel that they can get away with making comments like that BECAUSE Amy's naturally skinny. If she's anything like friends of mine who have similar body types, than chances are that she might be making the occaisional self-deprecating remark.

I wouldn't say ME is prone to making remarks about women's bodies in general. For instance, SMG is just as thin as Amy, but we don't hear comments made about her weight (well, at least not in the show itself).

I think we hear so much about Fred's figure because her body is PART of her character... she's supposed to be all excitable and twitchy and hyper and calorie-burny... so [a friend's biggest complaint about her arms was that cause they were so skinny, any time she made a gesture she ended up looking like a spazz] Amy's body type was probably a significant factor in her being cast.

Also, ME probably gets way to much mail along the lines of "Ew, she's so skinny. ohmigawd is she aneorexic?" So, constantly making references to how Fred can eat a ton of food and still stay skinny might just be ME's way of saying, "yes, she's tiny. no, she doesn't have an eating disorder. yes, she can eat an entire cheese cake without gaining an ounce. yes, we ARE a bit jealous of that!"

[> [> [> [> [> [> Amy Acker and cheesecake -- skeeve, 11:14:05 11/19/02 Tue

I wouldn't be jealous of anyone for having to eat an entire cheesecake.

BTW how did cheesecake come to refer to gals guys like to look at? The relationship between cheesecake and the looks of gals suggests making them antonomous, not synonomous.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: ME and Amy Acker -- Naomi, 17:07:19 11/19/02 Tue

Sarah is the lead of her show so the writers probably shy away from constantly slamming her appearance. I read an interview in the Buffy mag with Amy saying she is naturally thin and does eat a lot. Mind you she did seem to think she was being kind of wild in snacking on suger free mints and commented on how she tries to stick to them as they are 100% fat free. Perhaps keeping her figure isn't so easy after all? Given the choice I would rather have a toned body like Amy's then be overweight but I do find the snide comments tiring and I'm sure she doesn't appreciate them.

[> [> [> [> Who does Lilah think is the ideal woman for Wes? -- cjl, 11:10:07 11/18/02 Mon

She obviously loves their bedroom antics (and I'm all for more of those), but there's that whole "emotional" thing in the back of her mind, along with that pesky "R" word they had a bet about. Lilah obviously feels secure with Dark(er) Wes, but she has the uneasy feeling that maybe he'd feel a lot better with a woman who wouldn't sell her grandmother's soul for a corner office.

Hence, the whole Texas Twig outfit, along with short skirt, ponytails, and glasses. (And if I may borrow a phrase from Lord Flasheart of the Blackadder series: "WOOF!") Yes, she's mocking Fred, and proclaiming her own superior physical attributes, but she's also looking for a bit of reassurance from Wes that she's the one who gets his engine running. Wes, however, still stinging from "Slouching toward Bethlehem," feels no need to give her that much reassurance, and asks her to keep the glasses on. (Ooh. Wes, that was severely twisted....Well done.)

Considering this week's developments, it's difficult to know exactly where Wes and Lilah's relationship is headed. With Fred and Gunn headed for the rocks, and Wes, A.I. and Wolfram and Hart actually working together, a lot of the bitterness and tension that originally drove Wes into Lilah's arms in the first place isn't there anymore. And there is that whole apocalypse situation (very bothersome), when extreme emotions and long-repressed feelings do have a tendency to rule the day.

All I know is, I love this subplot. It's juicy, substantial, fresh and organically grown, and Alexis and Stephanie R. are just kicking it in every scene. Why can't ME do this with all the subplots?

[> [> [> [> [> Love the whole Lilah as Fred thing! -- Deeva, 11:33:53 11/18/02 Mon

Just when you think that you've seen most everything, turn the corner and there's something else. I think that Wes and Lilah's repetoire of games has just expanded into role playing with costumes. I know I have a dirty mind, no need to point it out. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Who does Lilah think is the ideal woman for Wes? -- Tess, 14:51:07 11/19/02 Tue

"Considering this week's developments, it's difficult to know exactly where Wes and Lilah's relationship is headed. With Fred and Gunn headed for the rocks, and Wes, A.I. and Wolfram and Hart actually working together, a lot of the bitterness and tension that originally drove Wes into Lilah's arms in the first place isn't there anymore."

Upon rewatching the show, I thought the look on Wes's face when Angel said he got information from Lilah was interesting...unreadable but interesting.

I've never been a huge Lilah fan (I'm still missing Lindsey bad) but I really like what they've done with her this year and the chemistry her and Wes put out is sizzling. Give me more of 'em!

[> [> [> [> note spoilers for angel 4.7 in sTG's q's. above...& in the answer in here -- anom, 11:43:09 11/18/02 Mon

"So what is she upset about, that Gunn took her revenge from her, or that Gunn cold-bloodedly murdered a man, which is what she had planned to do."

It seems to come down to the fact that he took the decision out of her hands to "protect" her, against her wishes. As you said, he took her revenge from her, not for her. I think she resents his effort to keep her "innocent." Fred may look childlike, but she doesn't want to be treated that way.

[> [> [> does love corrupt evil like power corrups good ? -- 110v3w1110w, 08:05:32 11/19/02 Tue

if the power that wolfram and heart gives lilah corrupts her to work for the power of evil then perhaps love will redeem her. there seems to be a lot of this in angel and buffy. angels love for buffy redeemed him as before he saw her he was doing nothing of note. spikes love of buffy may redeem him. xanders love of willow saved willow and the world and what caused lindsey to leave wolfram and heart ? his love for darla IMO caused him to act against wolfram and hearts interests. also to be that insecure there must be somthing about herself that lilha realy hates.

[> [> [> [> Re: does love corrupt evil like power corrups good ? -- JM, 16:19:37 11/19/02 Tue

Only worry is, even if she loves Wes, I don't think he loves her. He feels something, but he also seems to treat her as an extension on himself. And derives pleasure from being able to hurt her the way he thinks he deserves to be hurt. (OK that last is speculation.) I do remember noticing at last year's finales that the message that love saves and heals didn't seem to achieve cross over status. Love seems to be the AtS character's greatest vulnerability. Love doesn't redeem them, but being willing to absorb its slings and arrows does seem to hold a promise of some sort.

[> [> Re: I need a bigger arrow (Spoilers for Rain of Fire included) -- Jay, 10:51:06 11/18/02 Mon

I got the feeling that Wesley was enjoying himself a little too much in this episode. I read that scene with Lilah as "if you want to play, let's play."

And his interactions with AI were great from his and Angel's entrances from opposite ends of the lobby with Gunn and Lorne in the middle below, to every dual meaning thing that Wes, Gunn and Angel said to each other. I felt like Wesley was really feeling his oats in these scenes. And throughout the battle scene, I swore he enjoyed it a little too much. He's been waiting for the chance to whip out the metal meets propulsion devices.

I really got into that battle scene. And the beast did deflect those arrows with his arm.

[> Connor and Angel -- Masq, 10:43:33 11/18/02 Mon

"And Conner's 'Dad, please' melted me as I'm sure it did Angel."

Me too! I've already admitted to being a Connor-Angel 'shipper, wanting to see them bond again as father and son like they did in Benediction. I was kind of hoping they'd bring the two together at the beginning of the season and have them bond, and then rip 'em apart later, rather than keeping them at arms length, then ripping them apart furter.

But I have hope for those two, as a quote Rufus posted recently by Tim Minear speaks of their destinies as being interlocking, of Connor's identity being tied inextricably to Angel. Well, I guess in some ways that's a no-brainer. And now that I think of it, it may not be a happy destiny.


[> [> Re: Angel/Cordy...Angelus/Drusilla -- Tess, 11:38:57 11/18/02 Mon

While driving to the nearest fast food restuarant so I could get back here fast and waste the day away thinking about my favorite show (I so need to get a life) I had a thought earlier that Cordy is to Angel what Dru was to Angelus.

Back in Sunnydale, Cordy started out as vain, selfish and brutal in her honesty. Since bonding with Angel, she's changed into more of an image of what Dru must have been like before she was turned. Pure and good and everything right. Angel held Cordy on a least he did until last night. In his eyes she couldn't do any wrong. Her love and acceptance of him seemed to keep him fixated on his mission. Plus she is his link to tptb. And there is unresolved sexual tension between them.

Angelus obessessed on Dru because she was pure and good and everything right which of course he had to corrupt. And he liked having through Dru's visions a direct line to the powers that be big and bad. They also had chemistry but I was never too sure just how physical they had been.

And than there was Spike. Dru's lover, but for all intents and purposes Angelus''son', even though Angelus only tolerated Spike at best. I got the feeling that Spike held Angelus up as his idol, the ideal big bad, everything he wanted to grow up and be one day. Even though neither one wanted to admit it there was a father/son relationship.

And of course that would leave Buffy to fill Darla's role. Kinda sad, he's replaced one dysfunctional family for another.

[> [> [> Two Oedipal triangles -- Masq, 12:02:46 11/18/02 Mon

I comment on this
on my site, that Angel has now been in two Oedipal triangles. The one with Connor and Cordy isn't his doing in any way, it's more Cordelia and Connor who are making this happen.

The Angelus/Dru/Spike triangle was Angelus' doing, Angelus and Drusilla both. They hinted around that maybe Dru was sleeping with Angelus in Season 2 of BtVS, although their flirting in front of Spike would be enough to make the triangle real--they did it knowing full well, perhaps even intending (for sure on Angelus' part) to hurt Spike. And Spike was hurt. Which brings up another point. I really don't get how people think Spike was 2-dimensional in Season 2. He was never 2-dimensional.

Interesting how Angel is always in the role of the father in these triangles.

[> [> [> Re: Angel/Cordy...Angelus/Drusilla -- alcibiades, 12:06:55 11/18/02 Mon

And than there was Spike. Dru's lover, but for all intents and purposes Angelus''son', even though Angelus only tolerated Spike at best. I got
the feeling that Spike held Angelus up as his idol, the ideal big bad, everything he wanted to grow up and be one day. Even though neither one
wanted to admit it there was a father/son relationship.

Great point.

This is like karma for what Angel did to Spike in Season 2. He did it for kicks in Season 2 and because it felt good. And now he gets to feel it from the other side, the side that has to deal with the pain.

Just as Cordy mentioned feeling things that Angel did from both sides earlier in the episode.

The other point on this triangle is that Cordelia sleeping with Connor because the end of the world had come is also like Xander and Willow having a heavy make out session because they thought they were going to die -- and Cordelia coming in upon that and having her heart crushed.

Cordelia is probably going to have a great big squick reaction in whatever counts as the morning after in this scenario -- once she realizes the end of the world was not yet nigh. And another one on top of that when she finds out that Angel saw her and Connor, just like she saw and refused to forgive Xander -- ever.

I liked everything in this episode except the "explanation" for their affair -- it didn't work for me. A friend of mine pointed out that CC's languid delivery of her lines just didn't communicate real end of the world in peril emotionality that would move you into bed to comfort yourself and the others around you.

Part of it also is a chemistry thing. Connor and Angel sizzle together, Connor and Cordy don't. If I felt the chemistry, I wouldn't look for a more sensible reason for non-sensible sex. The chemistry would be reason enough.

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel/Cordy...Angelus/Drusilla -- gds, 16:04:13 11/18/02 Mon

she saw and refused to forgive Xander -- ever

It was pretty clear that Cordy DID forgive Xander in Prom. Xander had a chance to get "payback". She expected he would. Instead he helped her. She was twice astonished by how nice he was to her. She responded. In fact I think this was a CRITICAL point in Cordy's development. Notice at the end very end of season 3 when they are walking from the ruins of the high school. They look ALMOST like a couple. As far as we know they never became a couple again, but the hate/anger was gone.

[> [> [> [> Chemistry and more speculation -- Tess, 15:13:21 11/19/02 Tue

""Part of it also is a chemistry thing. Connor and Angel sizzle together, Connor and Cordy don't. If I felt the chemistry, I wouldn't look for a more sensible reason for non-sensible sex. The chemistry would be reason enough.""

I agree with you, there just wasn't much Chemistry in that love scene. Actually on Conner's part it seemed like what it was, an awkward first time sex experience. On Cordy's it almost seemed like her heart was breaking but she had to go through with it.

When the beast first attacked, I didn't get the feeling that it recognized either of them. But something about Conner's voice sparked that recognition. Maybe it was the demon in Cordy it recognized. Skip put that demon there and I haven't trusted him since Angel kicked his tail during the jail break scene. My insane troll logic theory is that Cordy is already pregnant and her romping beneath the sheets with Conner is just a way to disguise the truly beastly nature of this conception.

[> [> [> A few thoughts : Rain of Fire, (future spoilers/speculation) -- yabyumpan, 12:25:57 11/18/02 Mon

First, the usual disclaimer that I haven't actually seen the ep yet so I may be intepreting things in the wrong way.

Ok, C/C.......I'm actually more concerned at the response this has got all over the net, with people saying they're no longer going to watch etc, than I am with C/C. Maybe it's a C/Aer in deniel, maybe it's just that I've also been reading spoilers/foilers all over the place, but I just odn't believe it. I think it's interesting that the Beast didn't kill Cordy or Angel, it seems like he done some sort of mind mojo on them, either reading their minds or putting soemthing in their minds. Lots have people have commented on other boards that it was a long way for Angel to run to Connor when he was so badly injured. I think the C/C sex was either injury/beast induced halucinations for Angel or possibly for Cordy. Both have been shown not to be fully in their right minds this season, Cordy was halucinating at the start of the episode and has obviously been thrown off kilter with the visions and recovering her memories. Angel was also shown halucinating at the start of the series and had just been seriously injured. So I'm sticking with 'MISDIRECTION' untill ME prove different.

I'm actually just as interested in the Beast and his connection to Angel/Connor/Cordy. Is he part of the Tro-clon prophacy?

From 'Offspring'
Cordy: "About what's inside Darla. (Sits down) This Tro-clan thing - the prophecies say that it will be born - or it will arise?"

Wes: "It says both. The middle English eyrizan and the Gothic urreisan, both mean to appear, to spring up
(From psyches site)

Interesting that the Beast 'Arose' in the same place as Connor was 'Born'. Is it some sort of evil twin, an evil manifistation of the energy that brought about Connor, a child who should never have been born? It is the only thing that has been able to injure Connor. Does this mean that it is the only thing that can?
Ok, stream of concsiousness stuff now...could the beast be in some way Connor's 'father' (the father will kill the son), is the Beast in some way Angel's 'offspring' (connor's evil twin), again, the father will kill the son. Who or what is stopping the access to Cordy's memories? Seer's splatering walls at W&H etc, something (TPTB?) don't want the truth getting out. Who is being played and by whom?
That's all the stuff I'm interested in, C/C is a smoke screen IMO

[> [> [> [> What you want and what you get -- Masq, 13:15:04 11/18/02 Mon

"I'm actually more concerned at the response this has got all over the net, with people saying they're no longer going to watch etc"

I'm sorry to hear about that response. But the truth is, we've seen it before. Many times. After "Innocence" in Season 2, many fans were up in arms about the romantic hero becoming the vicious enemy. They didn't see it coming, it went against all their expectations. Many threatened to stop watching the show. This became one of the most powerful, and certainly fertile story lines in the show's history, however.

Same thing with "Seeing Red". Spike's attempted rape of Buffy, and Tara's death/Willow's vengeance had fans up in arms, threatening never to watch the show again. The show continues, with new depths reached by Spike, Buffy, and Willow that we are only scratching the surface of.

Fans have to get used to the way Joss and ME works. They throw things at us that on any other show spell doom and yawn, cliche alert "jumping the shark". Then they pull it off somehow with great drama. Those who chose to stick around and watch AtS come January will get the pay- off. The rest of them will miss out.

[> [> But then again..... -- Rufus, 00:59:23 11/19/02 Tue

Tim Minear speaks of their destinies as being interlocking, of Connor's identity being tied inextricably to Angel. Well, I guess in some ways that's a no-brainer. And now that I think of it, it may not be a happy destiny.

I see it a tiny bit differently...Angel is revisiting the time when he made the biggest mistake, and that is by taking for granted he knew exactly what his father was and how he felt. By having a son of his own the story has come full circle with the opportunity for Angel to heal himself by doing what is right by Connor. Even if not all the characters are alive by the end I wonder if it would be enough that Angel does not die because of the evil he has done but in protecting what he has come to feel is more important than himself.

[> [> [> But then again.........again......;) -- Rufus, 01:33:44 11/19/02 Tue

Now to add to that. Angel has been slowly learning the difference between force and power. In The Prodigal, as a new vampire, Angelus thought he won the war with his father by killing him....he used force to obiterate the power of his father to make him feel "less of a man". The tragedy of that was like Darla said, his father never could "approve" of him, or in other words love him for who he was. And love is what it has been all about for Angel, his fear and lack of understanding of that power that defies the fist. His use of force only momentarily extinguishing the lifeforce which had a power that has continued on from beyond the grave, to a Hotel in LA. Until Angel gets it right, that difference between force and power, he will always feel alone.

[> [> [> Re: But then again..... -- Tess, 15:31:44 11/19/02 Tue

""By having a son of his own the story has come full circle with the opportunity for Angel to heal himself by doing what is right by Connor.""

What exactly is right for Conner? I have no doubt that Angel loves Conner. Even with all Conner has done to Angel, I don't see Angel ever trying to kill the kid because of that. I can see the potential of him thinking he has to hunt down and kill his son because of evil though. And of course, Angelus always hurts the ones he loves most.

But as far as doing what is right by the kid...some things just can't be fixed. IMO Angel is not the one that has to do right by Conner, Conner needs to do right by Angel.

[> [> [> [> Parental approval -- Rufus, 21:21:08 11/19/02 Tue

I can understand where you come from, Connor has done some shitty things to his dad. On the other hand Connor just got back from a hell dimension scarier than the one his father had been in. He was brought up by a man who hated demons, and even though Holtz loved Connor there would always be that doubt in Connors mind about his self worth. So, how to deal with this.....gee Angel could continue to beat Connor, reject Connor, all the stuff his dad did with him and we know the end result of that, or, the pissing contest over who is right and wrong could stop and the two could possibly try to relate to each other in a productive not destructive way.....the first step was Connor coming to his Dad for help with Cordy. Instead of seeing the father/son relationship as one having to be all right or all wrong continues the same sort of "Contest" that ended with Angelus killing his father, only to find that the unresolved issues only made him more angry. Connor needs approval, needs to know that just because he is part demon doesn't mean he has no choice but to be evil. It's going to take patience and time....but hey, Angel has tons of time.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Parental approval -- Tess, 07:47:47 11/20/02 Wed

I agree Rufus, Angel and Conner need to do some serious relating. Howver, Conner won't let up in trying to hurt his father. First the 'She steals the covers' remark, and than 'She's mine', and than 'She living with me, you know that, don't you?' Upon consideration his 'Dad, please' remark was almost identical to what he did in tomorrow, where he used Angel's love for him to set him up for a bigger blow.

Actually, sounds like a typical teenager to me. Conner has the teenager thing down pretty good--all angry and everything that's wrong with the world is your fault and I'm going to do whatever I want whenever I want and you can't do anything about it.

Angel on the other hand has absolutely no idea how to be a parent. Which I can also understand seeing how his son went from 4 months old to a teenager in one week's time. The rest of us have 13 years to prepare for our babies to become angry teenagers and we still botch it up. I think Angel's so determined not to be the overbearing 'my way is the only way' parent that his father was that he's taking it to the other extreme. He's totally backing out of his son's life without trying to connect to him or guide him. And that approach has now totally blown up in his face.

[> Re: I need a bigger arrow (Spoilers for Rain of Fire included) -- skeeve, 11:23:26 11/19/02 Tue

Can anyone tell me why Wes didn't send the beastie into a hell dimension? Perhaps Skip could have given them the address of a prison dimension.

[> [> Fighting the beastie as it should have gone -- Masq, 11:48:49 11/19/02 Tue

That would have required time, and more ideal circumstances.

If things were ideal, they would have found out about the menace from Cordelia's vision back in episode 4 of this season (because Cordelia would not have lost her memory).

After Cordy reveals her vision, the boys might have picked up their weapons and beat their chests and gotten ready to go run out and find the beast, and the good old Cordelia we love would have snarked, "You might want to holster your testosterone and take a minute to come up with something, say, a plan?"

Then Wesley, who would not have been estranged from the others would have done research about the beast and found a good spell to send him packing.

End of story arc. And all is well at Angel Investigations. Until the next menace comes along.

[> [> [> How to battle apocalyptic demons with limited time (and budget) -- cjl, 13:28:09 11/19/02 Tue

I realize the guys didn't have a lot of time before the tanned and beautiful people in the club were turned into lincoln logs, but come on! They could have done better than just running up to the demon, one at a time (cjl rolls his eyes), swinging pointy things or showing off Wes' gun collection.

Taking a note from skeeve, this is how it SHOULD have happened:

[Angel, Lorne and Gunn keep The Beast distracted, attacking IN UNISON with sword, crossbow and axe--occasionally clearing so a trio of highly-trained W&H field commandos can apply a little flame thrower action and submachine gun fire. Wesley, who's been hanging back in the shadows of the club entrance, then tosses what appears to be Fred's cell phone about six inches away from the Beast's hooves. Angel, Gunn, Lorne and the W&H commandos bail out; those weird Pylean symbols appear on the digital display, and an interdimensional portal opens up, sucks The Beast inside-- and closes.]

GUNN: So that's it? It's that easy?
WESLEY: No. We've bought ourselves a little time. It'll probably take awhile for The Beast to find its way back. When it re-emerges, I want to be ready. I want to know what it is, what its presence on this plane of existence means, and how to stop it for good.
ANGEL: We've got to find Cordelia.
WESLEY: I agree. Regardless of her condition, she's still a wealth of information. She's got to tell us everything she's seen in her vision, down to the smallest detail.
GUNN: What about the kid?
ANGEL: I don't think Connor wants the world to end either. He'll fight with us. I know it.
WESLEY: He'll be needed. In the meantime, I've got to contact Rupert Giles in England. I think there's something about this creature in the Codex, but I'm not sure. Gunn, contact Willow Rosenberg in Sunnydale. I think--
LORNE: Uh, Wes?
LORNE: We don't do crossovers anymore, sweetie.
WESLEY: Damn these televsion networks! We can't afford this nonsense... (Dials Lilah) Yes, it's me...I'm all right...I'm touched...Listen, do you still have that contact at Warner Brothers? I need you to do me a favor...

[> [> [> [> I think that their fighting one at a time was so very the point -- Masq, 14:08:47 11/19/02 Tue

This fight was supposed to be ill-thought out. It looked very cool, but it was ill-thought out. It wasn't thought out at all. This was the kind of plan, the kind of fight you have when no one's really cooperating with each other. Cordelia is paralyzed by her own fatalism, Wesley distrusts the gang for distrusting him, Angel's in that gung-ho, let's get it done mode that only sometimes accomplishes anything, Connor doesn't want to spend too much time with daddy, Gunn's distracted because he's got the girlfriend on the brain.

Very frustrating, and only bound to get worse before it gets better.

[> [> [> [> [> Actually, I agree. -- cjl, 14:28:36 11/19/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think that their fighting one at a time was so very the point -- JM, 16:05:13 11/19/02 Tue

Totally, was thinking that even while I was enjoying it. It's a little hard to track with the slo-mo, then speed up. But it looks like Angel jumped the gun with vamp speed and attacked first. Too fast for Gunn to back him up. And also too close quarters for Wes and Lorne to help with their projectile weapons. Once everyone is clear Lorne and Wes get one coordinated shot, the only cooperation of the fight. After that point at least two fighters are down at every juncture, and some one is always blocking Lorne's shot, if he even has any sense of aim. I think there were hints too that a real group attack might have had some effect. Wes and Angel both get the beast to its knees. But there is no one to deliver follow up. Some symbolism there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Good catch, Masq and JM, I agree -- Scroll, 08:31:25 11/20/02 Wed

I think things are going to get a lot worse for our heroes before they get better. Over on Buffy, the slain Watcher Robson tells Giles, "Gather them. It's begun." Angel asks Wesley, "You in?" and Angel asks Lilah if she's "gonna play it smart." Clearly the good guys have to pool their resources to defeat the BB, but they're not ready yet. There's too much distrust and hurt feelings going on. So much more to lose...

[> [> [> [> LOL! I love your Wes-in-Charge! -- Scroll, 08:16:56 11/20/02 Wed

Unfortunately I'm reading this post at work and had to bite my tongue to stop from laughing. My boss is right next door! But I happen to adore Wesley's gun collection. Nice continuity and very Matrix-y. I don't care how uneffective the guns ultimately were. They were cool.

How did Connor do that? -- pr10n, 12:21:08 11/18/02 Mon

Is it just me, or did Connor command the Beast to leave Cordy alone? And the Beast obeyed him? "Leave her alone!" (Beast simpers) "Yesh, roight away, yer larhdship." (Beast tugs forehead ridge in lieu of cap.)

What vampire-child slight of hand was that?

And then why did the Beast mock Angel with the question about Cordy's safety? Does the Beast know Connor better than Angel, well enough to taunt our hero?

And Cordy knows in her heart that Connor's not the reason? Is that the same heart normally hidden in the shirt she just got out of?

[Well question-boy, any answers?]

I've got a feeling, that Connor's so evil, and we ain't seen nothing yet.

[This is part where I mention Revelation 4:10, which I think was Lilah's reference in AtS 4.5, not football. I had no takers last time on my little biblical doom theory, but the verse talks about Elders bowing before a throne -- nasty Elders, I'm talking about, before Connor's nasty, evil throne.]

[> Re: How did Connor do that? --
Mackenzie , 12:35:50 11/18/02 Mon

I don't remember the beast doing all of that. I think he just let her go and jumped away.
I will admit there is a weird connection either between Conner and the beast or Cordy and the beast. He could have killed her in a split second and he didn't, why? He obviously had no problem with killing after the Lincoln Log show he put on at the night club.

[> [> what the Dinza said to Angel: You have so much more to lose -- alcibiades, 12:59:24 11/18/02 Mon

the beast must know that Angel is the guy he has to fight -- yet if Cordy and Connor help him with it by indulging in sex and breaking Angel's heart, the beast might be thinking, erroneously or not that this will weaken Angel.

[> [> Speculations below (spoilers 4.7) -- Masq, 13:00:38 11/18/02 Mon

That the beast may have set up the whole Connor-Cordelia bed- warming thing. He grabs Cordelia, and somehow effects her in a way to get her to sleep with Connor. Connor, who is a kid, basically accepts the offer out of his own hormone-addled bad judgement. Cordelia looks completely detached during the act.

Meanwhile, the beast taunts Angel about Cordy being safe at Connors, basically sending Angel over there while C&C are in the act.

And I don't think Connor is evil. I think he may have some vampiric nature in his personality as well as in his body, but we have yet to see it really emerge in more than a bad temper.

I think it's likely that the beast has plans for Cordelia, Connor, and Angel that makes it important that they not be killed, and also makes it important that they not get suspicious of him not killing them.

[> [> [> Re: Speculations below (spoilers 4.7) -- pr10n, 13:11:53 11/18/02 Mon

The touching/infecting angle -- didn't think of that. The Beast seems mostly-powerful (all-powerful is an assumption...) and the infecting explains apparently OOC behavior while furthering its goals.

And the Angel touch/taunt -- same gig. I'm thinking I could fear the Beast way more than I did Connor (not to say I think he's an angel) if your idea is close, because that's an Eveeel level of planning and patience: little poke here, little broken rib there, toss in one Irish vampire, simmer for several weeks of repeats, bring to boil and serve over steaming husk of planet.

[When I say "little poke," I mean the Beast hurt Cordy in the fight, that's all I'm saying. Shut up, shut up!]

[> [> [> [> Let's hope there are repeats -- Masq, 13:29:07 11/18/02 Mon

I don't know about your WB station, but last year at this time (holiday hiatus) they were playing reruns of The Gilmore Girls and 7th Heaven in the Angel slot instead of Angel's own reruns! I was really miffed about that, since it makes people forget the show and because I needed to retape an episode.

[> [> [> [> [> Is there really no new episode until Jan? -- neaux who is sad, 14:59:58 11/18/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Looks like it. -- Masq, 15:13:42 11/18/02 Mon

But they start the 5th of January and go solidly through February sweeps without a break. It'll be just like Fall usually is, only... you know, in winter time.

I'm gonna take a nap for a month and a half!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Long Live Hibernation! -- neaux, 17:24:39 11/18/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Masq is right and the next Buffy after ep 9 will be Jan 7/03 -- Rufus, 18:47:16 11/18/02 Mon

Gives us all time to eat drink and be merry...then back to the pain of it all.....;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> This will actually work out well for me... -- Rob, 20:35:54 11/18/02 Mon

Since I only just finished "That Old Gang of Mine," I still have almost an entire season left to watch. Hey, the eps are new to me! And then I'll be all caught up by the time the show returns. Of course, I'll probably finish this season in a week or so, and then be complaining about the huge break.

Although, it will be kind of cool to have a winter TV season with weeks in a row of new episodes. That has become a rarity in recent years.


P.S. I am so loving the "Angel" tapes...and I think I'm developing a major crush on Amy Acker. I love Fred!

[> Re: How did Connor do that? -- Doriander, 12:59:17 11/18/02 Mon

You give credence to my comparison of Connor to John Connor of T2 fame.

Connor: the anti-messianic figure, and the beast his own personal Ahhnold.

[> Re: How did Connor do that? -- Rook, 00:19:25 11/19/02 Tue

I don't know if this has been mentioned in another thread, but did anyone else notice that the Connor/Cordy/Beast scene in the alley was eerily similar to the Dawn/Joyce/BB scene from CWDP?

Something real?? --
Mackenzie , 12:25:43 11/18/02 Mon

What did Cordy mean that she wanted to give Conner something real? Does she love him? Was it just apocalypse fever clouding her judgement?
I hope she did not mean the sex would be real.
Sometimes sex can be one of the most unreal acts we commit. Not that she does not care for Conner but if she does not love him and want to commit to him he is going to be so confused! He is a naive boy who is head over heels for Cordelia. He grew up in a world different from ours. Casual sex is a part of our world but will he understand it?
I am not sure that the sex was casual but I also want to know what was "real" about it.

[> Re: Something real?? (Spoilers Angel 4.7) -- pr10n, 12:50:00 11/18/02 Mon

That's what blew my mind about Cordy sleeping with Connor: the DIALOG. Hush, baby, I know in my heart, you didn't have a childhood, I'll give you something real, blahblah!

Like Connor JediMindTricked Cordy there at the end with some romantic movie dialog, complete with discrete blankets to cover what he didn't want the viewer to see, um, what he knew nothing about. Getting pretty good with words, indeed.

Anything but the actual Deed! Ok, end of Evil!Connor tirade.

[> Love the one you're with..... -- Briar Rose, 17:23:04 11/18/02 Mon

Mackenzie - you are marvelous! I agree with that philosophy and have never heard it put so well and so succinctly.

I don't necessarily agree with that as the reason Cordy went for it with Connor though and I may just be beyond jaded with this theory, but I saw it more as Cordy is in fear for life, love and the Universe. Cordy loves Angel, Cordy loves Conner. Conner is PART of Angel. Angel is not around. So what does a woman do who is in fear beyond all belief and seperated from her man and still going through some mind games from being gone and Amnesia Cordy Action Figure? Especially since Cordy knows better than ANYONE of the LA Squad what Angelus is capable of and that she would probably give him a happy and bring Angelus out again.

She places her love for Angel into Connor In a physical expression. Sharing comfort, if you will. And since she has the idea that she NEVER can share that with Angel any way? It would almost appear to be one of the vrious explainations that different Directors have given for why Gwenevere and Lancelot ended up in bed together.... He "stood in for" Arthur when Arthur couldn't father a child by Gwen and when Arthur went through the Mideaval eqivalent of erection disfunction.

Not that I'm saying it's right. Not that I could do it. Not that I think Angel won't find a way to go all Fangy Evil from seeing it and not that Connor and Cordy aren't a little INCESTUOUS for my taste (~~~~blech~~~~) and they better come up with a darn good reason for that to have happened. Oh - maybe a Borg Transplant into Cordy....

But in a way - I can see it making sense. All Ick factor and moralizing aside.

[> [> Re: Love the one you're with..... -- Mackenzie , 07:11:22 11/19/02 Tue

I also think you are marvelous!
I don't think I looked at Cordy's point of veiw. I was thinking more about Conner and how this will affect him. Obviously Cordy did have her reasons and she to will be affected by the act.
Thanks for opening my perspective!

[> Maybe I'm the first Cordy/Connor Shipper (spoilers AtS 4.7 and rumors) -- Tyreseus, 21:22:01 11/18/02 Mon

But I kind of like the Connor/Cordy pairing a lot more than the Angel/Cordy pairing.

As far as the "ick" factor goes - Connor is A LOT closer to Cordy's age than Angel ever will be. He's 18, she's 21-23ish (figuring 17/18 at graduation plus 4 "seasons"/years in L.A.). Okay, so it was less than a year ago that she was changing his diapers, but we've got to account for that ME universe weirdness.

I saw, in this episode, a lot more kindness, comfort and understanding coming from Connor towards Cordelia than coming from Angel.

Also, with the recent rumors that Charisma Carpenter is pregnant, maybe the writers don't intend to hide her belly all season long. Could Angel be a grandpa soon?

Just my thoughts.

Tyreseus - Not feeling very bright today, cause he just realized "ship" was short for "relationship." All this time, he's been reading posts and getting images of Buffy/Spike, Fred/Gunn, etc. in boats.

[> [> That's "Condy" apparently -- Masq, 09:36:44 11/19/02 Tue

I so hope they don't write her pregnancy into the script. I mean, they do have to adjust the scripts for the fact that she's pregnant, but that just means not having her do any stunts that require showing her stomach, and having her stand behind a lot of counters and things.

The suddenly-pregnant with a love-child thing was done already last season with Darla. Plus, Cordelia herself has already been pregnant once.

Perhaps they might have Cordelia get pregnant and lose the baby, but Charisma is further along in her pregnancy than Cordelia would be (and I hate the idea of a rapid gestation period, that too has been done, sort of, with Connor's rapid aging thing).

As to the "ick" factor--I think for most people it has to do with Cordelia being the only mother Connor ever had, and less to do with their ages. That, and the fact that Cordelia sort of throws herself at him out of the blue after keeping him at arms length on the whole sexual attraction issue.

[> [> [> Just me or are LA-ites "older" than Sunnydale- ites? -- Briar Rose, 15:10:22 11/19/02 Tue

This started occuring to me once this season of Angel started. Compared to the Scooby Gang and all that they have endured the past two years versus the Angel Crew and what they have endured - why do all the characters on Angel feel "older" maturity wise than the Sunnydale gang?

Buffy dies and comes back (by her friends meddling I might add) and Willow tries to kill the World and loses her Significant Other to murder and Xander and Anya go through a lot, Buffy being nearly raped. Dawn and Buffy dealt with death of a parent....

Compared to the Angel series, this should have more of a sobering effect on the Scooby Gang and I would expect more subdued reactions and mature thinking/acting - yet it doesn't happen. (Not that I dislike the characters - not at all)

Angel's crew has suffered - true - but not in such an "all at once" way. It was more about Sure, Angel was buried at sea, and Connor is a little git. Cordy was transported without knowing Angel loved her and yada yada. And Fred escaped a very bad time warp with Gunn Killing her Prof.

Yet Angel and Company act like they are old farts in the Senior Home for Battle of Good and Evil War Veterans and the Scooby Gang act like Home Coming is just a day away?

Now I realize that DB and CC and the rest in Angel are ACTUALLY older actors than SMG, AH and the BtVS group - but how did Cordy become so mature where Buff and Willow stayed pretty much unchanged?

I live in LA. I know it ages you. But come on!*L In reference between the two shows you'd think that Cordy, Gunn and Fred would still have "teen" moments every once in a while like The Scoobies do.

[> [> [> [> Re: Just me or are LA-ites "older" than Sunnydale-ites? -- Kay, 22:43:35 11/19/02 Tue

The obvious answer is that they are older.

Cordy was the oldest of the Scobbies and they all are about 21. Fred was a college student when she got sent to Pylea, that makes her at least 26. Seven years ago, Gunn was 17, which makes him 24. Wesley is minimum 25 and probably at lot closer to 30. And Angel is reaching a quarter century.

And while maybe Angel and Co haven't suffered "all at once" they have suffered and perhaps even more than those in Sunnydale. Cordy lost her entire life and had to start over in LA. She had mind blowing vsions that were killing her and felt the pain of all the people that needed helping. She also lost a potential siginificant other. Fred too lost her whole life and suffered as a slave in a hell dimention plus learning who sent her there and trying to kill him. Gunn has lived on the street and fought vampires since he was 12, and lost his sister. Wesley was fired, and tortured and then betrayed his "family" for nothing. Angel lost a child, lost a friend to a heroic death, lost a friend to betrayal and lost his true love.

The other thing that separates the two camps is responsibility and the accepting or rejecting of it. The Scoobies have been getting jobs and taking care of a teenager and running households. But Angel and Cordy have been running a business for 4 years, plus rasing a child. Gunn ran his own crew and took care of his sister on the street. Wesley stepped in as the "leader" when Angel went through his dark phase, while Fred stepped up when Angel was missing. Compared to Buffy not taking responsilbity till Giles left, and Willow using magic to fix everything and Xander wimping out at the alter, the LA-ites act more mature because they are. Just because things hapen to you does not make you mature, it's how you deal with the things that happen to you.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Just me or are LA-ites "older" than Sunnydale-ites? -- yabyumpan, 23:16:38 11/19/02 Tue

Although it is probably true that there is something in LA that makes people older, Connor has aged 2 years in 6 weeks. I'm expecting him to be drawing a pension by the end of the season ;o) (or maybe he still has some 'supergrow' soil from Quartoth still in his shoes)

[> [> [> [> [> [> True Kay.... Just seems that MN has more "spunk" inherently than AtS writers. -- Briar Rose, 13:45:54 11/20/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Just me or are LA-ites "older" than Sunnydale-ites? -- Cleanthes, 19:26:59 11/20/02 Wed

And Angel is reaching a quarter century.

Don't you mean quarter of a millennium?

I've logged a couple 'o quarter centuries, myself.

[> [> [> Either that or Concord -- Doug the Bloody, 16:01:15 11/19/02 Tue

[> What I WISH (spoilers through AtS 4.7 of course and also for the movie "Signs") -- Malathustra, 11:55:51 11/20/02 Wed

For all of its faults, Shyalaman's movie "Signs" gave me one important gift: an acceptable way to spend the last few moments of mankind's existence, should such a need every arise.

Those who have seen the movie will remember that, when the aliens are breaking into the house and there seemed to be no ready escape, Mel Gibson's character knelt down with his children and told them the story of their births. The scene reduced me to tears, and assuaged my own fear (I am really bad with scary movies...) by delivering a message of pure hope and light and good: of birth, not death.

The metamessage was also lovely: "Your mother loved you and, if we die here, and if there is an afterlife, you will get to be with her again. Won't that be nice? All that love. See? Death isn't so scary after all."

Over the course of the week, I have written and rewritten that Cordy/Connor "give you something real" scene in my head and each time it comes out more like "Signs" than "Apocalypse, nowish." How much more wonderful would the gift have been if, rather than getting naked, Cordelia had wrapped Connor up in a big hug, propped against the bed, maybe even while watching the fire rain down outside the window, and told him the story of his birth? About his mother and the way his soul affected her when he was inside her? About Angel and the way he protected Connor until he was born and for every second he could, thereafter, until Connor was kidnapped?

Sure, it wouldn't do much to build the love base for Wesley or Holtz, but it would have fueled an important fire in the grand scheme of this apocalypse fight -- the fire power of Angel and Connor fighting together. Imagine this metamessage in place of the "you're hot and you deserve to get laid before you die." It'd sound something like this:

"Connor, you are good. You are so good that, even before you were born, you were able to change and affect your mother. Your mother loved you so much that she gave her life for you. Connor, your father is good. He is so good that he saved your mother from hurting you. He used to talk about all of the things he'd get to do with you while you were growing up and, although this seems silly now, he bought you hockey sticks and snow globes and would die for you."

That kind of message would heal the division in the group, rather than emphasize it, but I guess it wouldn't have provided enough post-sweeps angst and would have actually made sense, given the characters involved.


[> [> Wow, you have a good point -- Scroll, 12:29:35 11/20/02 Wed

I just posted a (sort of) defence for the Cordy/Connor sex up at the top of the page, but now I'm reconsidering my opinion. Oh, not that the Concord sex was totally wrong or inappropriate, but that the scenario you described would've been much more heartening and true. But of course, why would ME ever go for the edifying and uplifting when they can go for the demoralising and angsting? As D'Hoffryn says, "Why go for the kill when you can go for the pain." Personally, I loved Darla and cried at her sacrifice. I'd love to see Cordy or Angel sit Connor down and explain what an impact his little baby soul had on Darla, and how much she, an evil vampire, really loved him.

I echo your sigh. I don't see this happening any time soon, unfortunately.

[> [> [> I was shocked they mentioned Darla at all -- Masq, 12:55:58 11/20/02 Wed

Her name has not been uttered since she died, except that brief mention in the alley. There have been maybe one or two references to the fact that Connor is the child of "two" demons, but that's all. Angel goes on like he's Connor's only parent. His only living parent, sure, but! Yes, she's not a character on the show anymore and we need to keep forging ahead, but really.

A brief exchange mentioning something about Darla, in or out of Connor's presence, would be cool. It doesn't need to be a propped-up scene where Darla comes to Connor in a dream and shows her snarky self to him. Although, that'd be cool, too. She's as much a factor in his identity crisis as Angel. Angel just happens to be walking and talking and the same- sex parent.

But Darla grew that infant on human blood for nine months and makes up half his genes/mystic inheritances. That's gotta count for something.

[> [> [> [> Precisely -- Malathustra, 13:07:07 11/20/02 Wed

Human Darla, like Liam, was not all that impressive a maternal figure in life, but she understood something about love and sacrifice when she offed herself. Moreover, now that her vampire days are over, we are allowed to revert to thinking about her the way the "Signs" kids thought about their mother -- as a loving woman whose soul may live on, elsewhere.

Holtz never seemed as bent against Darla as she was Angel, and maybe that's because of Holtz's very basic understanding of familial love and sacrifice. For as broody as he is, has not made the "ultimate sacrifice" for his son, but I could see Holtz speaking less-negatively about Darla during all of those years in Quar-toth than Angel. If Connor can't have affection in his heart toward Angel, he should at least be able to have some for his dead mother. I think it's a real shame that, after spending all of that time on Darla's redemption thread, she has been entirely written out of the story.

Especially since Connor seems to have been blessed with her hair.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for mentioning that... -- Masq, 13:24:51 11/20/02 Wed

The hair thing. Connor may have his father's moves and his broodiness, but Vincent K. looks a heck of a lot more like Julie Benz than David B.

And I'm sure they took that into account when hiring him. But can't someone, at some point, tell him, "You look just like your mother."???

Plus, just like mom, the hair's always in his face. : )

As to your suggestion about a better way for Cordelia to comfort Connor in "the end", you're right-on. Which is what makes me think Cordelia either (a) is depressed and not thinking clearly, or (b) is being controlled by either the beast or the PTBs. I vote beast. I don't think it's a throw- away when Cordelia dreams she is watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

This control theory is discussed in my episode analysis.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Nice. -- Malathustra, 13:31:16 11/20/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Invasion of the Body Snatchers -- Arethusa, 13:47:09 11/20/02 Wed

The second Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) had themes of alienation and paranoia.

"WD Richter updates and relocates Jack Finney's original story to San Fransisco, where health inspector Donald Sutherland is the shoulder that colleague Brooke Adams cries on. Her boyfriend Art Hindle has suddenly become very emotionally detached from both her and the world around him. Sutherland enlists the help of his psychiatric buddy Leonard Nimoy, who is only too happy to try and explain the problem.

What he is less able to resolve is the bizarre spidery webs and pink flowers that have descended over the city, and people claiming that their partners and family have been have been replaced with soulless look-a-likes. He puts it down to a "hallucinatory flu going round", but Sutherland begins to suspect otherwise.

The signs are all there, courtesy of Kaufman, who weaves an increasingly sinister cityscape through prowling camerawork and a highly effective stereo score. Sutherland delivers a performance that conveys beautifully the terrifying realisation that he is one of a diminishing group yet to be overwhelmed by an alien force that bears the faces of the loved and trusted." 1010679/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=2&rid =214656

Another review from the same site:

"The film¹s most intriguing angle is the social commentary. Siegel¹s film was little more than a thinly veiled attack on McCarthy-isms hunt for the commies lurking amongst us. Kaufman updates that here, instead choosing to wage an all out assault on the "feel good 70¹s"‹particularly the pop psychology field. That the point man for the alien attack is none other than a new age style guru seems to speak volumes (and in a way, is strangely reminiscent of Cronenberg¹s film The Brood). Kaufman¹s film dares to say that the idea of utopia, a world where strife, anger, and even love, are no longer necessary isn¹t worth trading our humanity for‹even if we could vaguely recall what it meant to be human.

The pods, and the means by which they create new versions of sleeping people, are also somewhat Cronenbergian as well. While Cronenberg¹s films often return to themes dealing with bodily betrayal from within, Kaufman¹s movie shows us the same idea‹only from an external source. Still, the pods themselves extend runners that burrow beneath the sleeping victim¹s flesh in order to make a precise clone of the human‹something that could be construed as a betrayal from within, especially when one considers that the human is then crushed like an empty husk once the replication process is complete. Of course, this isn¹t to insinuate that Kaufman borrowed from Cronenberg, or vice versa‹I only add this to demonstrate that the two filmmakers are tilling the same very fertile ground.

Has Cordy's body been hijacked by the Beast, to be used and discarded like in the movie? Has the Beast arisen to remove humanity from the earth, and replace it with "alien" life forms?

[> Re: Something real?? -- Cleanthes, 17:49:29 11/20/02 Wed

As pointed out by Diotima in Plato's `Symposium`, the REAL part of sex is the mediation with infinity which results from procreation that sets up a potentially infinite chain of descendants.

I thought just from looking at how "ripe" she was, that Cordelia slept with Conner in order to become pregnant.

Maybe it really IS all connected... -- Liv, 12:47:27 11/18/02 Mon

I'm just trying to sort out all the parallels between BTVS and ANGEL this season. There seem to be WAY too many similarities and old-school references on both series(... did anyone else think they found every possible word combination to describe the beast without saying, "From beneath you, it devours"?) ...Besides, ME doesn't seem to do ANYTHING by accident.
"Conversations with Dead People" had their Big Bad corrupting the Scoobies in order to create dissent and plant doubt in eachother and themselves. In "Apocalypse Now-ish" didn't Cordy seem to be acting alarmingly un-Cordy-like? I agree with previous postings that her wanting to give Connor "something real" seemed forced, and her Angel brush-off was an exercise in insane troll logic.
Moreover, Wolfram and Hart keep emphasizing that "the vampire with a soul" is a major player in the apocalypse... well Angel's not the only one now, is he?
If any one has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. In the meantime I have to go get some soap for my brain after that horribly disturbing Cordy/Connor scene at the end. Unspeakable horror.

[> Re: Maybe it really IS all connected... --
Flare, 15:02:09 11/18/02 Mon

OK, now i haven't seen the more recent 'Angel' Eps but the whole 'Vampire With A soul' thing.. blimey! thats been playing on my mind.. Remember the 'Vampire with a soul gets to live' thing.. could this mean Angel doen't get the 'happy ever after'?

My guess is that the writer either consider the two show so far apart now that it doesn't matter... Stuff in Angel is for Angel, Stuff in Buffy is for Buffy ect..


Blimey, are we gonna see a BIG ending someware along the line!

Also has anyone thought how cool it would be to end both shows with a big ass fight of Good Vs Evil.. with all the good guys (dead or alive) comming back to help out..
Oz, Faith, Doyle, Kendra, Amy, Johnathan, hell even Clem.. all kicking ass, maybe even the spirits of some past slayers..

Man that would be sweet...


"Beneath You" and "Deep Down": episode titles, reigning metaphors (spoilers up to AtS 4.7/BtVS 7.7) -- Masq, 12:52:00 11/18/02 Mon

I'm not getting very much work done today at work today. No, surprisingly not a hang-over from the birthday bash, which was a blast, by the way. No, I'm just spending all my time reading posts and thinking about the two TV shows I spend way too much time thinking about. So I thought I'd post some of my observations.

A lot of people have commented on the "Beneath You" metaphor on BtVS. It is linked to the "Beneath you it devours" catch- phrase that forebodes the resurgence of the Hellmouth below the school--"the earth has teeth" to devour our heroes. It was also Spike's own opinion of himself relative to Buffy, that he is not good enough for her, that he is beneath her (echoes back to FFF). Spike's mumblings on this were heard in the same-named episode, where we have the giant worm demon tunneling under the ground with the seeming intention of eating ex-girlfriend Nancy, and certainly her dog. The theme was also reflected last week in Buffy's feeling that she is the one who is beneath her friends and Spike. She feels bad for the way she's treated them due to, ironically enough, her superiority complex.

A similar metaphor is working on AtS. We have the episode "Deep Down", with the obvious link that Angel is lying at the bottom of the Pacific ocean. But it reflects on several other aspects of the season 4 story as well. The first one, also from that same-named episode, is Justine's warning to Wesley that Angel(us) will inevitably turn on him and the others because of what he is, a vampire (similar to Holtz' warning to Wesley that "The beast will re-emerge.") This week, we have a literal beast emerging from "the bowels of the Earth" (Beneath You, anyone?) Connor worries that this is a reflection on himself, on his own mysterious nature, because of where the beast emerged from--Connor's birthplace. He wonders what he is, deep down. We see this in the other characters as well--who is Wesley, Deep Down? A good man, or a darker character? Who is Gunn deep down? A murderer? Is Fred a murderer, because of her intentions?

[> Excellent post, Masq. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:12:52 11/18/02 Mon

I'm personally hoping that the themetic ties like this continue. Who knows? Perhaps we'll have another non- crossover-crossover. I'd love to see a phone call where either Buffy or Angel go: "The Apocalypse is coming! What do you mean you can't help? I don't care if you've got problems of your own. It's not the end of the world or anything. Oh, it is. Toodles. See you when we're on the same station again. Love ya, bye."

[> "from beneath you it devours"--a larger metaphor? -- anom, 14:59:43 11/18/02 Mon

I've been wondering if this phrase means that what's coming is a meta-vampiric entity or force. After all, a vampire comes up from the grave--"6 feet beneath" you, as Spike put it in (I think) Fool for Love--and goes on to devour humans. Could it mean that Buffy & the others are going to have to face what amounts to the principle behind vampirism--that dealing w/individual vampires is equivalent to projecting "evil" onto individual people, rather than dealing w/the meaning of the concept itself?

And maybe that is itself a metaphor for the self-doubts that undermine the foundations of our identity. Don't we all need a secure place to "stand" under us so we can feel sure of ourselves? But our doubts "gnaw"; they "eat away" at our self-confidence. We try to keep them "down," beneath us, or at least beneath the surface of our consciousness, but that's what leaves us vulnerable to people who want to hurt us--or makes us feel the need to hurt others, whether out of defensiveness or because we need to devalue their feelings for us, as Buffy did when she felt undeserving of love. Amazing how people w/complementary unhealthy needs manage to find each other, isn't it? Does the term "emotional vampire" come to mind?

So maybe the next step in the SG's maturity is to face their own doubts & fears & to recognize them as coming from within--& maybe not so much to defeat them as to accept them & reach a balance, the way Willow is learning to reach a balance in her use of magic. Emotionally healthy & balanced people are less likely to fall prey to individuals who are emotional vampires.

[> [> Re: "from beneath you it devours"--a larger metaphor? -- Tyreseus, 20:54:39 11/18/02 Mon

I've tried to steer away from much of the BBW speculation following CwDP (other than a few comments here and there), but you've got me thinking a bit.

Could it mean that Buffy & the others are going to have to face what amounts to the principle behind vampirism.

We've met the First Slayer - the peppy little cavegirl from "Restless." Well, are we ever going to learn about or even meet the First Vampire? Somewhere along the way, there had to be a first - maybe "pure" like the demon we saw Angel become in Pylia? Not sure this is even related to the BBW, but it would be interesting to see where vamps come from according to the ME folks.

[> Reigning Metaphors of AtS 4.7 & BtVS 7.7 (spoilers) -- frisby, 15:20:19 11/18/02 Mon

My work too is suffering given the intensity of the last two episodes (buffy and angel), not to mention my attempt to write something on buffy and nietzsche, which will likely now become my main writing for my course next semester on the history of television (given that I think of the buffyverse generally as one of the greatest things ever produced for television, if not the greatest). I too have watched both epsidoes twice now and find myself thinking about them often. As regards "beneath you" I think of one's metaphysics as perhaps the basis of one's orientation, changes of which react on the world of our concern in a way like tectonic plates affect the surface of the planet -- that is, metaphysical changes cause earthquakes and volcanos, metaphorically speaking of course, as almost always. Our lifetimes are eaten alive by what Nietzsche calls the spirit of gravity, and sooner or later, we all succumb. How do we stand up, ascend, fly into enlightenment, given that the thing below (the spirit of gravity, the old master of the world whom Nietzsche's Zarathustra must fight and defeat, a monster of tradition and reason) insists we will eventually fall back no matter how high we fly at first. All of our achievements are devoured by the monster beneath us. Our only defense is to discover that in us which is our own, that which deep deep down, the deepest (the deep midnight wisdom of night speaks to Zarathustra declaring the depth of the world's silent night -- and helps him to discover that which will defeat the monster of gravity. I think it will have to be Willow who will be able to go deep down, very very deep, to the heart of the earth, to find humanity's own answer to defeating that devours us from beneath. The power of the earth to bestow dignity if we are loyal (understanding these in a "natural" way that the words do not do justice to) will enable Willow and the Scoobies and Buffy of course to find what they need to sing about (song as the key) -- "Sing -- speak no more!" Pardon my ramblings and musings and bouts of ecstatic enthusiasm. I'm at times consciously losing sanity when it comes to my obsession with this thing called buffy. But it's so nice to read others too -- which is what I mostly do .... and it's so nice too.

[> [> Re: Reigning Metaphors of AtS 4.7 & BtVS 7.7 (spoilers) -- spaceclown, 17:58:53 11/18/02 Mon

"If you bring forth what is with you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will destroy you."
For the second time in a few weeks, I have come upon the following thought. It seems relevant in this thread, especially since atpobtvs was the first place I saw it. I am so sorry not to be able to tell you who first cited it. I tried to find it again but could not. Maybe I don't know how to use the search engine well.
I ran across it again this week in another context.
According to the Free Will Astrology, Rob Brezny's column in my weekly free local rag, "In the centuries after Christ died, several versions of Christianity competed for ascendency. One ultimately trimphed, and its followers got to decide which of his teachings would be included in the orthodox canon and which wouldn't." He then quoted the above and called it one of the gems the church fathers excluded as heretical.
The buffy essay dealt with, I believe, coptic christianity. It was a very good, thought provoking essay that posted shortly after Beneath you and dealt with Christian ideas, ideals and images, like the cross that Spike lay upon at the end.

[> [> Buffy Obsession Syndrome -- Tyreseus, 21:01:03 11/18/02 Mon

I can relate to Frisby, Masq and all the others here. I have intense work schedule with a major deadline that falls on alternating Tuesday nights. Lately, with the quality of the shows and the appreciation I've gained for this board, I've counted down the hours until I've accomplished all work- related activities and can safely engage my brain on ATPoBtVS.

Great posts, by the way. Nothing largely constructive to add at this point, but I wanted to chime in and say I liked 'em.

[> Re: Grr...Argh...You beat me to it! (And another slightly relating thought) -- Purple Tulip, 18:39:44 11/18/02 Mon

I was actually thinking about a connection between the "from beneath you it devours," and "you're beneath me" lines that we have heard echoed so much lately. After watching "Fool for Love" tonight (one of my fave of all time), I thought that there might be a connection between the two, a deeper meaning. I'm not really sure about the exact connection, I've got some ideas rolling around in my head, but none that are ready to be spilled yet, so I'll leave the speculating up to the pros.

One other thing that I noticed after watching this ep., was that Spike went after Buffy with a gun. Now, I had noticed this before, of course, but that was before I watched "Seeing Red" when Warren came after Buffy with a gun. It's been discussed here before about how the gun is a phallic symbol representing masculinity and the attepmt to use that masculinity to finally end Buffy's life. But what I also thought was interesting, was that both Spike and Warren went to the gun option as a last resort. How many times did Warren try to kill Buffy or make her crazy? And Spike? Each saw the gun as their only choice, the only way, in their minds anyway, to diffinitively end her life, and thus triumph over their biggest rival.

[> Re: "Beneath You" and "Deep Down": episode title (spoilers to AtS 4.7/BtVS 7.7) -- Rufus, 01:49:47 11/19/02 Tue

Connor worries that this is a reflection on himself, on his own mysterious nature, because of where the beast emerged from--Connor's birthplace. He wonders what he is, deep down. We see this in the other characters as well--who is Wesley, Deep Down? A good man, or a darker character? Who is Gunn deep down? A murderer? Is Fred a murderer, because of her intentions?

Oh jeeze, if my fleeting murderous, well maybe not always that fleeting....complete who I am then I'm so spending the afterlife in a warm, flamey place. Connor is making a typical assumption based upon misunderstanding who and what he is. Sure he was born in that alley, but if we go through time to the past, just what else has happened on that spot? Connor isn't evil just because he had demon parents, because a big, really big Beast decided to enter through that spot, Connor will be evil because what he eventually does. I think it's a good sign that he fears being evil at all.

Fred, she so wanted to kill that professor, and not over grades either.....but she got that chance taken from her by Gunn. I think that Gunn understands that Fred may feel hate, feel fear of going back to Pylea, but she also has a soft heart. If she had done that one thing who knows what type of ride on the spiral she would have taken. Gunn sacrificed his well being for hers....but they did stop the professor, and that guy wasn't going to stop hurting others til he was taken out.

Wesley....well he may look dark but he seems to still have his moral compass sort of pointed to good, he just is wavering on how to accomplish the good he fights for. I still think he is a good guy, with creepy, risk taking taste in women.

[> One HUGE heretofore unremarked upon metaphor in Rain of Fire -- alcibiades, 06:23:27 11/19/02 Tue

So no one has mentioned what I saw as the biggest metaphor of all in Rain of Fire.

The beast "bit" Angel in his throat with Angel's own knife and after he left, we watched Angel bleed out extensively through his throat and mouth.

Symbolic revampification? Looked like it to me.

So Angel and Dawn both had blood in their mouths in episode 7.

Might be foreshadowing of things to come. There has certainly been speculation that Dawn might be turned this year.

The beast also bit Angel by stirring up his anxiety re: Condy. So he got to watch the consummation of the act.

[> [> future BtVS spoiler spec above -- Masq, 06:39:33 11/19/02 Tue

[> [> Oooh good catch! -- ponygirl, 08:59:40 11/19/02 Tue

I was wondering about the very graphic wound, and couldn't figure out the neck placement. The most I could come up with is robbing Angel of his voice, but voice/speech isn't really one of his things. But I like symbolic revampification! Perhaps the poison/blood that the Beast gave to Angel is the information about C/C. What will be "sired" in Angel now that he knows?

[> [> [> Re: Oooh good catch!/ Spoilers 7.7/4/7/future spec -- alcibiades, 10:00:32 11/19/02 Tue

Thanks Ponygirl

What will be "sired" in Angel now that he knows?

Can't help thinking of the fact that at least on BTVS, vampires are known as beasts and animals. -- All that stuff in Season 4, and the Initiative about vampires as beasts, and Spike shouting "I'm a bloody animal" once he learns that he can kill demons.

So, the beast might sire the "beast" to re-arise in Angel.

And of course, Connor is once again presented symbolically as he who hunts beasts -- because this week, the dead animals, somewhat cleared away by Cordy last week in her attempt to neaten the place, are back in force around his dwelling abode.

BTW, a slight addition to my first post. Connor and Spike also have bloody mouths at the end of the shows, but in more traditional ways -- Connor through fighting the beast, Spike through feeding. Although the fact that Spike is now feeding also represents a kind of revampification.

It makes interesting pairings in each show. Spike/Dawn -- Angel/Connor. The two vampires with souls and the two supernatural children they are close to.

This can't be accidental in anyway.

[> [> [> [> Tie-in to the Oedipus angle (future spoilery stuff) -- Masq, 10:19:41 11/19/02 Tue

"So, the beast might sire the "beast" to re-arise in Angel. And of course, Connor is once again presented symbolically as he who hunts beasts."

This tracks with the rumor that Angel might, in fact, revert to Angelus this season. Connor may very well feel it is his duty/destiny to kill Angelus as he originally intended last season.

Thus completing the circle of the sleep-with-your-mother, murder-your-father thing.

"Y'know the whole good-and-evil, balancing the scales thing."(spoilery speculation) --
fearshade, 14:19:42 11/18/02 Mon

Looking at this quote (and reading over The Monster Book), I'm wondering if we'll be seeing a particular demon this season. Anybody remember Whistler?

Just a few quotes from The Monster Book and the episodes Becoming 1&2:

Key Relationships(Monster Book)-Though he is a demon, Whistler apparently works for cosmic entities responsible for maintaining the balance between good and evil in the universe.

BUFFY: "What are you, some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil?"
WHISTLER: "Wow, Good guess."
---Becoming, Pt2

WHISTLER: "A demon, technically. But I'm not a bad guy-not all demons are dedicated to the destruction of life. Someone has to maintain balance. you know. Good and evil can't exist without each other, blah blah blah. I'm not a good fairy or anything. I'm just trying to make it all balance-do I come off defensive?"
---Becoming, Pt1

BUFFY: "Why don't you try getting off your immortal @$$ and fighting evil once in a while? 'Cause I'm tired of doing this by myself."
WHISTLER: "In the end, you're always by yourself. You're all you got. That's the point."
BUFFY: "Spare me."
---Becoming, Pt2

Monster Book - Subsequent to that episode, Whistler disappeared and has not been seen since. And according to Joss Whedon, "We probably won't see him. We could, if we think of a cool story involving him. But at this point we don't have any big plans in that direction." Whedon confirms, however, that Whistler continues to work to keep the balance between good and evil in the Buffyverse.

[> more rumors & specs about Whistler -- ZachsMind, 16:00:01 11/18/02 Mon

If memory serves, Whistler was supposed to go over to the Angel series with David, but due to scheduling conflicts, the actor playing Whistler couldn't reprise his role, so they recast the part and thus DOYLE was born. By all accounts Doyle was a much more successful foil for David.

Max Perlich (aka Whistler) is a VERY busy character actor. He has been in both television and film since 1986, when he played a small role in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off." He also played a pizza delivery guy in the pilot of a short-lived series called "My Two Dads." He's worked rather steadily over the years, but his face & demeanor are a kinda 'face in the crowd' combination. This is probably to his benefit in a business that likes typecasting you today and disposing of your carcass tomorrow. Perlich is not necessarily pigeon-holed, but at the same time he's able to play certain stock roles from stereotypes to wildcard surprises. This guy may never become drop dead famous, but he should always have a job in Hollywood so long as he wants it. There can be worse things in showbusiness than a steady paycheck.

This past summer Perlich was scheduled to be in production of a movie called "Dead Rock Star" which also stars Stephen Baldwin & Steve Buscemi. Perlich's been cast in a television production called "The Johnny Chronicles" and a European film called "Dueces Wild." All this in the same year - this year.

In other words, the actor has a full plate. Bringing back Whistler for BtVS even as a cameo appearance seems not only an obscurity (Whistler was only in two eps and the chances of people remembering him are slim) but doubtful due to the actor's full dance card.

[> [> Re: more rumors & specs about Whistler -- Cheryl, 16:21:17 11/18/02 Mon

"(Whistler was only in two eps and the chances of people remembering him are slim) but doubtful due to the actor's full dance card."

Bummer, cuz I remember him and have always hoped he'd reappear.

[> [> [> Re: more rumors & specs about Whistler -- cjc36, 01:39:47 11/19/02 Tue

I remember Perlich from Homicide: Life on the Street. He played crime scene videographer Brodie and was essentially the mascot of the squad room (he tended to get picked on a lot). A schlubby (sp?) kinda guy, I was happy to see him turn up in Buffy playing a demon with a plan.

[> [> [> Well. I remember him too, but... -- ZachsMind, 08:08:12 11/19/02 Tue

Well. I remember him too, but we're like, diehard fans of the show. I mean Whistler was used for exposition in a two- part episode early in the history of the series. Granted, they brought back Amy and she was a rat for three years. They *could* bring back Whistler. I was just arguing the point that the odds are slim to none.

IF they brought him back, he wouldn't be a bad guy. He's not exactly a good guy. Whistler just likes playing dominoes with people's lives.

[> See my 'Descartes' post in the 'Voynak' thread for Whistler as an allegorical figure. -- Tchaikovsky, 08:48:40 11/19/02 Tue

A Theory! (My First!) --
Flare, 14:50:07 11/18/02 Mon

I've just finished watching "Conversations with dead people" and i have a theory, although it is probable that Tara(Amber) wasn't avalabe for this episode, Casey being a 'sent' makes perfect sence to me... Here we go..

Willow never met Casey and probably only knows the following about her,
What she looks like, but only from a photo.
That she was a nice, honest, likeable person.
That shes dead....

So if you were gonna try and play someone with a 'message' would it be easier to convince them by impersonating some one they would trust but hardly knew or by becomming the person they are in love with and shared every part of themselfs with? I think Willow would have spotted a fake Tara easily.
Also not allowing her to see Tara, but lettting her know she is still there, singing & Crying ect. would make her want to see her even more... even if it ment Willow killing herself, not that it fooled our Willow anyway eh?

Just a thought playing in my head...

Also.. this 'Big evil Morphy thing', I'm convinced that it is Spike doing the killing.. as Sire'ing a new vamp has always been an exclusive vampire skill.... seems somehow wrong that no matter how 'big' an 'evil' that it would do that. So Spike is being controled? Forced? Maybe our Spike is 'inside' not only feeling the pain from the chip, but also the guilt of the killing from his soul.. ahh.. poor Spike!

Well thats my brain emptied!


Hurts so good (Spoilers 7.7) -- Rook, 15:38:06 11/18/02 Mon

Well, after watching CWDP, and thinking about Spike's reaction to stabing the guy in Beneath You, that Spike's soul is somehow overriding the "pain" messages being sent by the chip.

In particular, I'm thinking about all the S&M stuff we've seen from Vamps over the years, and this line from CWDP:

See, this is what I hate about you vampires. Sex and death and love and pain‹it's all the same damn thing to you.

So, I'm figuring that whatever passed for "Pain" for a soulless vampire isn't something that effects a souled vamp in the same way. Given the above, it seems logically unlikely that pain would dissuade any vamp from a particular course of action...especially in the case of spike, for whom getting beat up is "Third Base".

So, either the "pain" that was being projected by the chip is some kind of very specific deterent to a soulless vamp, or some kind of conditioned response that was set up by Walsh in the personality of the evil Spike. With that personality now gone, or at least subdued, it seems logical that the chip wouldn't have the same effect on Spike.

[> Re: Hurts so good (Spoilers 7.7) --
Flare, 16:13:13 11/18/02 Mon

Sorry, But didn't Spike 'get the pain' from his chip when he stabbed that dude?

Although I thought the chip kicked in on 'the act of him causing pain to another (non-demon)' so surely 'removing the pipe/stabby-thing' was an act to stop causing pain.. hmm.. confused myself... must rewatch!


Angel as Greek Tragedy (Spoilers for Rain of Fire) -- Sara, starting a thread for the very first time!, 17:52:18 11/18/02 Mon

I know we've been talking alot about the Oedipal thing with Cordy and Connor, but the last scene of Angel where he's watching them through the window seemed much more than that. It felt like the whole series is taking on the scope of a Greek Tragedy. Angel, at that moment, seemed so much larger than life in that shot, that it even undid the cringe factor for me, and immediately took on the look of events that were spiraling out of control. Now, I'm not one of the scholarly types on this board, I tend to react with vague impressions of what I remember having read at one time of my life, and what it kind of felt I could definately be off the mark here. But, doesn't Lorne make a great Greek chorus!

I'm trying to figure out what Angel's hubris was, but maybe he's paying for the pride of Angelus. That goes along with Cordy's rejection of Angel now, because of Angelus then. (Although did anyone else have a problem with the serious Cordy telling Angel about feeling his victim's pain and his own pleasure at causing it, after weeks of the old Cordy just plain annoyed that he wasn't bringing her home because she was bored - wallowing in the pain and evil caused by the person you love may not be fun, but it doesn't really seem that 'bored' fits the bill either.)

And back to hubris, Angel certainly has gone toe to toe with the powers that be on more than one occasion, is that part of the mix?

Ok, all you smart people - let me know if there's something here, otherwise just ignore me, I promise not to take it personally!

- Sara, who wishes she paid way more attention in high school and college, but unfortunately wisdom comes as the brain cells go...

[> Re: Angel as Greek Tragedy (Spoilers for Rain of Fire) -- KKC, 18:11:48 11/18/02 Mon

The parallel of Angel (the series) as a Greek tragedy is pretty solid. The only hole I see is that by definition, the protagonist in said Greek tragedy is doomed to fail. That makes for compelling theatre, but doesn't usually occur in American television. :) In spite of the cliffhanger and the doom-n-gloom, there's very little doubt that Angel will avert this apocalypse and save the day. Whether or not he's properly rewarded for it is another story.

Wasn't that a criticism of the Quantum Leap series? I seem to remember more than one critic saying that it would have been more interesting to see Sam Beckett fail to achieve his objective occasionally, just to make the drama more emotionally compelling.

-KKC, trying to engineer self-feeding pets.

[> [> Success and yet still doomed (Spoilers for Rain of Fire) -- Sara, 18:33:35 11/18/02 Mon

But can't Angel succeed in stopping the apocalypse and yet still be doomed in quest for love? That's what makes him the cursed hero, both explicitly and implicitly. I think the tragedy is losing Connor to Hults, and then losing Cordy to Connor. alcibiades discussed in another thread how Angel is trying to build a new family after his history of reveling in the destruction of both his and others'. I think that things are not going to end happily ever after for Angel, Cordy or Connor and there we have the doomed hero.

By the way, thanks for responding to my very first thread!

- Sara, the communication junkie, gets in deeper

[> [> [> "The man who can have everything but love" -- Masq, 19:08:27 11/18/02 Mon

That was Fred's summation of Angel back at the beginning of season 3. Now, ME may not go in that direction, they may find some paranormal prophylactic so Angel can consummate his love in all the ways a normal man would (I mean let's face it, a lack of love-making would put a damper on any "true love"). But geez, that would be dull.

[> [> [> [> But without love? -- DickBD, 15:02:18 11/19/02 Tue

Is he able to partake of sex without love and not go bad? I haven't seen the earlier episodes, but I'm trying as hard as I can to catch up. He had sex with Darla to produce Connor, right? Okay, I had that explained to me once as "an act of dispair." But he also had sex with Lilah, too, sort of spite sex, but is he exempt from that, too?

And am I right in thinking he was looking right into the window at Cordelia and Connor? (I guess that would not be true happiness, watching his son with his beloved. But how angry and frustrated can he get without going bad? It has to be "true happiness," right?)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: But without love? -- Tess, 15:48:34 11/19/02 Tue

"Is he able to partake of sex without love and not go bad?"

Wes once speculated (don't know what episode) that Angel went bad because he had sex with Buffy, not because he had sex. It is perfect happiness that makes Angel wear leather pants. Not perfect sex.

"But he also had sex with Lilah, too, sort of spite sex"

Angel never had sex with was an old man who had stolen Angel's body.

"But how angry and frustrated can he get without going bad?"

This was explored in season two and ended up with Conner's conception. And I have to say Dark Angel is just as interesting as Angelus, maybe even more so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, Angel and Darla noogies = Connor, without going evil -- Masq, 15:52:47 11/19/02 Tue

In a "moment of perfect despair", so no happiness clause invoked.

I don't think that seeing something as disheartning as Cordelia and Connor could make him lose his soul. But then, they haven't explored other ways he could "lose it" except happiness.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: But without love? -- JM, 15:51:40 11/19/02 Tue

Um, no, no, no sex with Lilah. Marcus-Angel bit before they got it fully on, and she's never ever forgiven him for that. She went from hot for him and kind of indifferent to "Die, Angel, die."

It was however implied that there was something sexy going on with the Furies. "Mmm, Angel."

I agree with Wes, sex doesn't necessarily equal Angelus. I personally think he could get away with sex with love, as long as he was wistful enough about what he could give a woman. I think that the stress of perfect happiness fear would be sufficient to prevent it.

[> Out of control (4.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 19:03:55 11/18/02 Mon

"Angel, at that moment, seemed so much larger than life in that shot, that it even undid the cringe factor for me, and immediately took on the look of events that were spiraling out of control. "

I don't think there was anything rational about Cordelia's decision to sleep with Connor. Through the whole episode, even, in fact, since she's been back on Earth, she's been dragging her butt around in a fog, trying to figure out who she is, why she's back, totally unfocused and very anti- Cordy.

I think her actions with Connor weren't about Connor feeling anything real at all. What Cordy gave him wasn't real. She was trying to feel something real herself, and didn't succeed. Cordelia's lost, and that's just one of the threads of the weave that's unraveling as the big bad attacks from without and the group falls apart from within.

AtS season 4 is starting to resemble Buffy Season 4, in terms of theme, more and more.

[> [> AtS Season 4 Cordy is also resembling Season 6 Buffy. -- Rob, 20:29:28 11/18/02 Mon

[> [> [> Exactly, she is acting like she's depressed -- Masq, 22:11:11 11/18/02 Mon

And trying to solve her little problem by jumping on the wrong guy for all the wrong reasons.

[> [> Re: Out of control (4.7 spoilers) -- frisby, 05:24:55 11/19/02 Tue

If so, (Angel season 4 parallelling Buffy season 4) then might we expect the hand of Angel to be joined to the mind of Wesley, the the spirit of Gunn and the heart of Lorne? But could even uber-angel stand toe to toe with the devil? Perhaps the mind of Fred and the heart of Cordelia will join with the spirit of "someone" to make a second hand, uber- connor, and with two hands, the devil will have his hands full (so uber-buffy can stab it in the back?). Just having fun with this of course, but the speculative possibilities are a key part of what makes this universe so interesting. [By the way, there's a great essay that argues Yeats' slouching poem is all about Nietzsche -- argues soundly it seems to me -- but that's another story.]

[> Re: problems and solutions -- Sang, 07:12:42 11/19/02 Tue

I noticed that writers of Angel had some problems with Angel's curse. From time to time, they wrote them into corner. Like his love with Cordy, having baby, return of son.. and possible reconcilation with Conner. None of them can happen without conflicting his soul.

They should make Angel miserable, while, they should keep Cordy and Conner around. So they made Cordy ascend to heaven, Conner grow up in some hell-dimension to a teenager who hates his father.

But still they came back and would help Angel to stop Apocalypse. And Cordy still loves him. Furthermore, Conner will soon acept his father. Then writer should make a way to find that Angel will never be happy with both of them around... Make them sleep together and make Angel watch them! Two birds in one stone, Angel will never be truly happy with them around him. So the writers again showed their great escape technique.

[> "There should only be Greeks." Restless question. -- Darby, 07:30:48 11/19/02 Tue

Anybody got a clue what that line from Anya in Willow's dream might mean?

[> [> Re: "There should only be Greeks" & thoughts for Sara -- lachesis, 08:22:43 11/19/02 Tue

When Anya says "It's exactly like a greek tragedy. There should only be greeks." I think this can be taken two ways.

Firstly, in the sense of 'there should only be greeks and then the likeness would be perfect.' The implication of this, maybe, is that the tragedies they act out are like Greek tragedies, except for the fact that they (the characters) are not Greek. This is pretty accurate - BtVS quite often uses classic tragic situations and themes, which examine the same essential problems of humanity, but do not play out in the same way because of the unique and developed natures of the characters as protagonists.

Secondly, perhaps, in the sense that if you are going to do tragedy, it should only be Greek? See 'Puppet Show'...

And I wanted to reply to Sara too. It is ironic really, that Angel should find himself on the receiving end of this complex, since he himself is so completely Oedipal. Cordy was his chance to break away from the small, blonde, preternaturally strong, mother figures he has chased for so long, but now, instead, he finds himself in the role of the hated father figure. Still, the whole Oedipal bit is Freudian, rather than Greek or tragic. Particularly for Angel - Connor's transgressions are more unwitting, and so closer to Oedipus' own, since Connor doesn't believe Angel and Cordy to be his true parents.

I think you are right though: Angel has been shaping up to be a tragic hero ever since he lost baby Connor, and the Greek references in 'Ground State,' as well as this Oedipal consummation, all point to this. I'd argue that he is not an active tragic hero though, as Oedipus is. Instead he seems to belong to the type of tragic watchers - Theseus, Creon, Jason, and so on - whose tragedy is to stand helplessly by while their families disintegrate around them. This type offers and interesting resolution to the problem of failure, since these tragic heroes survive, and even suceed socially as leaders.

Ooh, now that you've got me thinking about it, Connor has many parallels with Hippolytus, the son of Theseus by his Amazon Queen. Connor is Angel's son by his dangerous lover, Darla. Angel/Theseus then tries to have a more normal relationship with a 'good' woman (Cordy/Phaedra) who tries to be a mother figure to his son. The son grows up and dedicates himself to the hunt to the exclusion of everything else. In the play by Euripides ('Hippolytus') the sexual relationship between Phaedra and Hippolytus never actually happens (the gods make Phaedra fall in love with Hippolytus, and when he refuses her advances, she commits suicide, leaving a note accusing him of rape). Theseus exiles Hippolytus, and calls down divine vengeance upon him. Only when his son lies broken and dying does Theseus see the truth.

In this particular version of the story, although the Œwrong¹ actions (attempted seduction, false accusation) are Phaedra¹s, she is simply a victim of circumstance/the gods. The true faults are those of Hippolytus (self-righteous chastity, denial of the power of love, to which his father is constant victim) and Theseus (in the crisis, he immediately opts for vengeance, rather than examining his own role in things ­ being an absentee husband and father, abandoning his first love, Ariadne, Phaedra¹s sister, then contributing to his father¹s suicide and later the death of Hippolytus¹ mother). Theseus is not without sin, but he casts that stone, and it cannot be taken back.

As you say, Angel¹s tragic flaw is pride, and I don¹t think this is just Angelus¹ former pride, but also Angel¹s tendency to turn down the chances of escape that fate once kept handing him ­ the Ring of Amarna, his day of humanity. When it comes right down to it, Angel aspires to something (humanity) which he does not believe that he deserves. Now, I know that there were good reasons for these choices, but in a certain light, Angel¹s insistence on penance is false modesty. (In the middle ages, monks who insisted on excessive penance were rebuked for the sin of pride, on the grounds that only God knows, and can give us, what we truly deserve).

Who knows how it will play out, especially since there are also hints ('so much more to lose') of the trials of Job. But humility could well start at home, with a forgiving and understanding (rather than vengeful) attitude to the pain that the two people he most cares for have caused him. Tragedy is never inevitable, after all. Just really, really, likely.

Thanks for making me think too much!

[> [> [> Exactly what I would have said...if I knew all that stuff! -- Sara, thinking I really need to read more, 10:49:36 11/19/02 Tue

Connected (longish, and spoiler up to Btvs 7.7) -- Random, 18:13:29 11/18/02 Mon

Absolutely don't have time to do this (work work work!), but was browsing the other posts and ran across anom's reply to Masq's post on "Beneath You" and it triggered a line of thought that's been slowly working its way through my sleep- deprived brain lately. At one point, I had been focusing on the Cassie apparition's lines concerning the whole mortal coil thing and the good vs. evil thing. It occurred to me -- as to many posters here -- that there was something just slightly odd about those lines. An immortal evil -- or even a mortal evil -- would hardly seem a likely candidate for a sudden disaffection with mortality (a long-running loathing of living creatures, sure) and an even less likely candidate for a sudden ennui concerning the good vs. evil thing. "It's about power," of course, but that raises more questions than it answers. What's power to any given creature? To humans, it's not about good vs. evil in intramural conflicts. Hitler may have been evil, ditto Stalin or Amin, but they weren't seeking power through the explicit device of "evil." For them -- and Nietzsche -- power was both a means and an end. But Buffyverse power revolves around good and evil. It's a war of fairly explicit terms. Nobody on the side of "good" in the Buffyverse is going to write an apologia for vampires, however often the Internet philosophers of the realverse may do so. If evil has a will to power, it is still a will to evil forms of power. Angelus, the Master, the Mayor, even Glory -- these have all tried for power the only way they knew how: through devices, and with results, that most of us would consider unambiguously "evil." Then there are Adam and Warren. These two seem more amoral than evil. As a Frankenstein's monster, Adam moves with the force of pre-programmed destruction, seeming to relish knowledge and effect more than the actual death and/or destruction of his victims. It is significant to note that he's a metaphor for an all-too-human will to power. Warren, of course, needs no additional psychoanalysis over and above what's been discussed in many different forums. But this new entity, while performing acts that most of us would consider unambiguously "evil" (tormenting the Scoobies, raising murderous spirits, murdering poor Jonathan -- I will never ME for that one -- and probably screwing up Spike). nevertheless disavows such a motivation and has some evidence on its side. Its acts -- at least in CWDP -- are entirely practical. It attempts to weaken and separate the Scoobies. It's no coincidence that so many people have noted similarities between recent events and Spike's actions in "The Yoko Factor." Spike, evil though he may have been in S4, wasn't tormenting the Scoobies for the fun of it. He had an entirely practical reason, and that, of course, was the return to his former power. Not, it is important to note, to serve Adam in hopes of any favor except de-chipping.
Before I get to the point, I'd like to backtrack for a second and discuss the other Big Bad. Dark Willow was unique among the Bad's, of course, because her motivation was unambiguously lacking in evil. She wants to destroy the world, not for the power rush, but as a form of euthanasia. Demented, to be sure, and certainly her mindset was influenced by evil, but her actual motive, separate from her drives and methods, was hardly the same as, say, Angelus' in S2. She wanted to end pain -- not just her own, but everybody's. In a way, she represented one of the most truly horrifying forms of evil one can imagine: the evil of good motives/altruism twisted by utterly evil means and rationalizations. Killing to cure -- a debatably issue even when one is only talking about mercy killings of the incurably ill, let alone the peremptory destruction of all life without a single permission form being signed by one of the six billion kiddies you're trying send on that Last Great Field Trip.
So what, then, are we looking at now? Originally, in the dark afterhours of CWDP, I began to formulate a theory concerning the Spirit of the Slayer. What if (I thought) we aren't dealing with an evil creature after all, but a good one gone mad, or at least gone existentially weary? We have so very little information about this entity except that it apparently doesn't like demons in general and vampires in particular. We know it's capable of vindictiveness against those who displease it (witness "Restless') even when they do so for goals the entity would presumably approve of. Bringing the Spirit of the Slayer into this would be a perfect way to bring things to a full circle. We could finally understand the rather vague notion that the entire series is predicated on. I rationalized a lot concerning this notion. Halfrek's line about "being a bad time to be a good guy," never actually said that the threat was evil. People pounced on the First Evil's line that it is the thing that the darkness fears as a fairly decent parallel to the current climate among the lower beings. It's a strong case, but one must consider that evil would tend to fear non-evil (not necessarily "good") power more than evil power. And I admit I was influenced by the theories that the girls being killed in the first couple of episodes were potential Slayers. Juggling all this, plus a side-theory that involved killing off all but the "true" Slayer (Faith) in order to return to a purer, more primal state (would the Spirit of the Slayer suffer from the doldrums of excessive multi- tasking? hmmm...), I finally gave up on this idea. But it served a useful function when the "connected to a powerful all-consuming evil" line came up in CWDP. It seemed like a throw-away line, but I've never had much faith in ME's ability to waste time with meaningless dialogue.
So returning to the issue of power, we are confronted with an entity which doesn't seem to cotton to the good vs. evil ethos. It implies that it once did -- its line about being tired of it echoes both Glory's mortal coil soliloquy and Anya's speech in "Dopplegangland" -- but that's open to interpretation. All this has been said before, but I'd like to observe that there's something we're not considering: the role of humanity and its ambiguous nature. For humans, power is rarely a matter of good or evil. Was Ethan purely evil? or Ford? or Ted's creator? or even Warren or Andrew? It is no coincidence that we now have a be-souled Spike mucking around in the works. Willow re-living issues of power (magic) being equally apt for both good and evil and she being the gatekeeper of both. Anya choosing good over evil and, as a consequence, being restored to humanity (why? wouldn't D'Hoffryn have, as Zeus with Polyphemus, much more leisure for revenge if she was still immortal?) We seem to be dealing with a much more humanistic concept than we have in previous seasons. S6, of course, was the heyday of ecce homo, but it was a psychological season, not a sociological one (Warren was a sociopath, to be sure, but his issues are ultimately individual ones.) What can we make of all this? The presence of greater forces for good and evil allow for one of balance, but not one of simple power. This upsets the whole schematic far more than any crushing victory by one side or the other possibly could. Power divorced from, or untainted by, good and evil is a wild card in a world such as the Buffyverse where things are defined by the conflict between the two. The war goes on, as always, and -- to paraphrase Angel and Buffy and a little of Spike -- nobody really wins. So along comes a spider...
So viewing the scene at the end of "Lessons," we see the gamut of the Big Bads, culminating in Buffy. The warriors for the two sides (Buffy being the only rep from her side because, well, she's just been so darn successful that nobody else has really managed to get some of the glory) all in a row, and it's really all about power, no matter what the principals involved might have thought at the time. Buffy fights for mom, apple pie and the right not to die ugly, but the conflict itself is about power. Since the BBs are trying to gain power, she is effectively opposing their power with her own.
Okay, I'm just throwing this out there, ya'll, and have loads more to say, but I really, really need to get back to work and so on, so feel free to simply look puzzled and move on. Sorry about the diction and the lack of specific citations, but time is money (not much money in my case, but money nonetheless.)~Random

Link to Transcript of Chat with Vladimir Kulick aka The Beast..spoiler about what the Beast is. -- Rufus, 18:44:36 11/18/02 Mon

Trollop Group

I didn't post it here because of length and the spoiler...but the identity of the Beast could be taken many ways depending on what you believe personally and what you think the Whedonverse is saying.

Regarding Drusilla - Followup to archived thread *Without Hiding* -- OnM, 20:15:59 11/18/02 Mon

When I got to the part of the essay where I said ³That leaves us with Mayor Wilkins and Buffy², I had the
unmistakable feeling that I was overlooking something, but couldn¹t figure out what it was. I even went back
over the last several sections, but still didn¹t figure it out.

Maybe there¹s a spell going on here... ;-)

You are all correct, of course, Drusilla should be taken into account also. Maybe the reason that I kind of
subconsciously avoided dealing with her as regards my minion manifestation theory was that she is kind of an
exception in one way-- she is still actively undead, whereas the Master is not. My ideas of the FE
manifesting a Spike image, and then have it go around killing and/or siring humans tends to require that (for
obvious Œmystical¹ reasons) the FE minion be an actual vampire, past or present. Of the 7 entities manifested by
the FE in Lessons, only two are vamps, so the entity impersonating Spike and also actually physically
killing people would have to be either the Master or Drusilla.

The suggestions that it could be Drusilla have significant merit, I don¹t dispute that at all. In fact, the idea that
the Master could have been manifested as Holden is quite logical, and I simply didn¹t glom onto the reasoning
that would support it when I wrote down my initial guesses.

So, let¹s break it down:

Warren (or Adam ?) - manifests as Warren - works with Andrew to kill Jonathan
Glory - manif. as Cassie - threatens Willow.
Adam - manifests as Joyce and/or the Œcreature¹ - sets up Dawn for ??
Wilkins - not yet in play - will eventually work on Faith (??) or maybe even Buffy
Drusilla - still actively Œundead¹, recruited by FE to impersonate Spike
The Master - manifests as Holden, appears to Œhelp¹ Buffy, but is also after Spike
Buffy - The FE manifests as Buffy (only Spike sees this so far) - trying to deceive him as to the Œreal¹ Buffy

Not directly related to the subject at hand, but just popped into my head, so of course I'll go with it: Remember the hooded creatures who the FE used as minions in Amends? Are they possibly similar in nature to the hooded
figures that have been killing off the Œproto-Slayers¹ in eps 1 & 2?

Probabilities as I would call it, as of now, after an additional long and boring workday:

( Manifestation / Intended victim )

Warren / Jonathan - 70%
Adam / Jonathan - 30%
Adam / Dawn - 50%
Warren / Dawn - 10%
FE / Dawn - 40%
Glory / Willow - 90%
Wilkins - not in use yet - 70%
Drusilla / Spike - 60%
The Master / Spike - 40%
The Master (Holden) / Buffy - 60%
The FE as Buffy / Spike - 90%

Probability victim attacked/deceived by Big Bad or Not?

Willow - 100% yes
Jonathan - 100% yes
Dawn - 80% yes
Spike - 50% yes
Buffy - 20% yes

There it be, and I sure had fun! Just one more day now to whatever happens next!


"The Annotated Buffy": WSWB Thread #2/Link to Poll --
Rob, 20:26:59 11/18/02 Mon


"When She Was Bad" Transcript
E-mail me!


Date Posted: 17:47:33 11/16/02 Sat
Author: Sophie
Subject: Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 17:47:33 11/16/02 Sat

When She was Bad

So the master's bones were buried in consecrated ground??? I know the Catholic church prohibits burying bodies of suicides in consecrated ground, but I would have thought no vampire bones, also!

Is this the first time we see Angel kill a vampire? I probably missed one somewhere. But this is, of course, Angel's big sin ­ killing another vampire (one of his kind).

Buffy torturing a vampire. This is one of the few times that we get to see what the torture activity actually is.

The bodies hung upside down, like meat in a freezer at the butcher shop. The swaying feeling of the bodies is smooth and rhythmic, dance like, in sharp contrast to the anger and harsh emotions.

And of course the grinding bones ­ Jack and the Beanstalk.

Date Posted: 23:50:08 11/16/02 Sat
Author: anom
Subject: on consecrated ground
In reply to: Sophie 's message, "Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 23:50:08 11/16/02 Sat

"So the master's bones were buried in consecrated ground??? I know the Catholic church prohibits burying bodies of suicides in consecrated ground, but I would have thought no vampire bones, also!"

I thought that was done deliberately to keep him from being raised.

Date Posted: 18:38:30 11/16/02 Sat
Author: Alvin
Subject: Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 18:38:30 11/16/02 Sat

I've never posted on one of your annointed threads before, but since I recently rewatched this one, I'll give it a try.

What amazes me about this one is how much it resembles Becoming, showing us how much ME likes the first and last episodes of a season to parallel each other. For instance:
1) Both have a big library scene where Buffy insists on going alone into an obvious trap. In fact all the Scoobies are in roughly the same positions in both episodes with Kendra replacing Jenny. (And of course both have the honor of dying during the season.)
2) Both have Buffy returning to the library to find the Scoobies have been attacked in her absence with only Xander remaining. Also, both have Xander blaming Buffy for what happened.
3) Both have a smoking female vamp used as a messenger. In WSWB it's because of Buffy's cross; in Becoming because of sunlight.
4) Both have a Buffy/Angel fight (verbal in WSWB from the transcript:
Buffy (to Angel): Oh, c'mon! I mean, you must've thought about it. What would happen if it ever came down to a fight, you vampire, me the Slayer, I mean, you must've wondered! Well, why don't we find out?)
5) Both have someone being tortured for information (Giles in Becoming, female vamp in WSWB)
6) Both have Buffy in a big fight while Xander rescues the captured Scoobies.
7) Both have a scene where Joyce doesn't understand Buffy.
8) Both have a group of vampires trying to awaken something big and powerful, and in both the means is by blood.
9) Both have a vamp who hangs out of the big fight against Buffy (the Annointed One/Spike).

When I got the season on DVD, I just had to see Becoming first thing, and then I started on the season from the beginning so all the parallels jumped out at me. I think these two have at least as many parallels as Bargaining and TTG/Grave have.

Date Posted: 06:18:48 11/17/02 Sun
Author: KdS
Subject: Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 06:18:48 11/17/02 Sun

Xander: I'm sorry, I can't help myself. Your nose looks so tasty.
He reaches up with his napkin and gently wipes off her nose. He takes much longer than he needs to and looks into her eyes. He brushes his hand against her cheek. After another moment he starts to move in for a kiss. She responds in kind and tilts her head. They stop just short of making contact and linger there a moment. Xander finally begins to pull back, and when he does he sees a vampire standing on the other side of the wall. Willow notices his glance and looks, too. She screams and jumps off of the wall as Xander pulls her away from the vampire.

Possibly the biggest emotional could-have-been in the history of the series. What would have been the future for everyone if W/X had ended up real?

Hank: Okay, then. This is the last of it. (puts another suitcase on the bed)

As someone pointed out a few weeks back (sorry, can't remember who) this is actually the only scene in which Hank Summers appears that is not a hallucination or memory. Is it possible that Buffy's post-NDE funk was actually what broke the bond between them?

Hank: She was just, I don't know, um... distant. Not brooding or sulking, just... there was no connection. The more time we spent together, the more I felt like she was nowhere to be seen.

It's not until Season 5 that Buffy explicitly talks about her lack of emotional connection, but it's interesting that Hank has exactly the same complaint as Riley.

Joyce: Well, welcome to my world. I haven't been able to get through to her for so long. I'll just be happy if she makes it through the school year.

She won't of course.

Cordelia: I mean, they promised me they'd take me to St. Croix, and then they just decide to go to Tuscany. (exhales) Art and buildings? I was totally beachless for a month and a half. No one has suffered like I have. Of course I think that that kind of adversity builds character. Well, then I thought, I already have a lot of character. Is it possible to have too much character?

Probably not deliberate, but this speech is astonishingly ironic given the development of Cordelia as sin- eater/Scapegoat of LA in AtS.

The student lounge. Buffy is upstairs on a couch, off in her own world. Willow and Xander come up the stairs to her.

Is this the longest dream sequence ever in Buffy?

Giles: Oh, I don't know. I mean, (chuckles) I've killed you once, it shouldn't be too difficult to do it again.

That whole Slayer/Watcher death dynamic rears its ugly head again. Quite possibly forshadowing for Helpless

Buffy: Could you contemplate getting over yourself for a second? There's no 'us'. Look, Angel, I'm sorry if I was supposed to spend the summer mooning over you, but I didn't. I moved on. To the living.

Horribly ironic given current speculation on the board about Buffy 's emotional arrest over Angel. I know she's supposed to be self-destructive here, but maybe she should have taken her own advice...

Snyder: That Summers girl. I smell trouble. I smell expulsion, and just the faintest aroma of jail.

Yet more Becoming forshadowing.

Angel: You have to trust someone. You can't do this alone.
Buffy: I trust me.
Angel: You're not as strong as you think.
Buffy: (gives him a challenging look) You think you can take me?
Angel: What?
Buffy: Oh, c'mon! I mean, you must've thought about it. What would happen if it ever came down to a fight, you vampire, me the Slayer, I mean, you must've wondered! Well, why don't we find out?
Angel: I'm not gonna fight you.
Buffy: Come on! Kick my ass!

Horrible irony for the second-half of the season. Can Buffy really handle things alone? She can in the short term, as we see in Becoming II, but it wouldn't work in the long term (The Wish, Fool For Love).

Buffy: One more time: where are they?
Vampire: You're too late. Your friends are dead.
Buffy: (lifts her back up) Tell me where they are!
Vampire: (laughs) What are you gonna do? Kill me?
Buffy: As a matter of fact... She throws the vampire onto a pool table.
Buffy: ...yes. (yanks off her necklace) But since I'm not gonna kill you any time soon, the question becomes...
She drops the cross into the vampire's mouth and covers it with her hands.
Buffy: are we gonna pass the time till then?
The cross burns in the vampire's mouth, and she shakes her head. After several seconds Buffy pulls the cross back out.
Buffy: So. One more time.

Although it's been implied on a few other occasions that our heroes have tortured people when necessary, this is probably the most explicit example in the series' history. Anybody who thinks Buffy is insufficiently aware of her own dark side - this is one of the key pieces of counter- evidence.

Absalom runs into the burning end and is set ablaze. He backs up and screams as the flames spread over him. He makes a last desperate attempt to get Buffy and raises the sledgehammer over his head, but is too late as the flames engulf him and instantly burn him up.

There is a very clear inverse proportion between the effect of flame or sunlight on vampires and their importance as recurring characters. Compare this scene (and the opening of Bargaining I) with Redefinition.

Giles: Buffy, you acted wrongly, I admit that. But believe me, that was hardly the, the worst mistake you'll ever make. Uh, that wasn't quite as comforting as it was meant to be.

More foreshadowing for the second half of the season. Similar to Giles's speech in Innocence.

Collin: I hate that girl.

(Slightly self-indulgent speculation - this is the only time I found the Anointed One interesting as a character. He does actually behave childishly here, whereas usually he is simply an all-EVIL cipher. Given that he was created by a specialised ritual, and the fact that his personality is less explicable by the original human than any other vampire, is it possible that the Anointed One is the only real example of the Watcher's Council propaganda explanation of vampires? Is he actually possessed by a powerful, intelligent demon that has replaced his personality, rather than the more malleable (or even non-sentient) demons that possess most vampires?)

Date Posted: 12:19:25 11/17/02 Sun
Author: anom
Subject: wow, talk about thorough! there's just 1 thing i'd dispute
In reply to: KdS 's message, "Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 12:19:25 11/17/02 Sun

"As someone pointed out a few weeks back (sorry, can't remember who) this is actually the only scene in which Hank Summers appears that is not a hallucination or memory."

He does show up for real at the end of Nightmares. Remember in the Buffy's-nightmare version he shows up early, in the middle of the school day? After the nightmares are over, he comes at the scheduled time, looking happy to see her (unlike nightmare!Hank), although I don't remember if we see him do more than wave to her. Still, he does "appear."

Date Posted: 18:37:00 11/17/02 Sun
Author: CW
Subject: One small addition
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 18:37:00 11/17/02 Sun

Xander gets the dance he asked for in Prophecy Girl. It's as sensuous as Xander could have wanted for a first dance. But, it's not the private moment of happiness he'd hoped for. Buffy uses him to alienate Angel, and Willow is also tormented in the process. As the dance ends, she makes it clear it's all a tease.

Date Posted: 20:51:56 11/17/02 Sun
Author: ponygirl
Subject: Re:"When She Was Bad" Annotations (7.7 spoilers)
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 20:51:56 11/17/02 Sun

When She Was Bad is always going to be a sentimental fave for me. It was the first full episode of BtVS that I ever saw and it also occasioned my first Buffy-inspired purchase since I bought a Cibo Matto cd soon after. But it's not just sentiment that makes me appreciate this ep. in fact recent season 7 episodes make me realize how many themes of BtVS had their start in WSWB.

Buffy's "issues": One of the most important themes of the Buffyverse is that of consequences. Buffy had by any measure won in Prophecy Girl, she'd defied prophecy, defeated the Master, and got to go to the dance, yet there was a price. Buffy's brief death affected her far more than she would ever admit. It is the start of her isolation from those closest to her. She had been practiced in concealing things from her parents before, but now there is an emotional detachment. It's present in her dealings with with everyone in this episode, as she deals with an internal struggle by closing herself off. A pattern that seemed to reach its apothesis in season 6, but still seems to be ongoing in season 7.

Buffy's dream of being attacked by Giles depicts Xander and Willow seemingly unconcerned or unaware of the life and death struggle Buffy is facing. They are removed from her problems, whatever they have seen and done for Buffy it just doesn't compare to her experiences.

It has been discussed on the board before that the Slayer negotiates the border between different worlds: human/demon, night/day, good/evil. Nothing underscores this more than the fact that Buffy has died and yet still lives. It has changed her, set her apart. The detachment she feels from ordinary life after this brief death is magnified a hundredfold after her second death, and her struggle to find meaning in a life that is undefined by death will inform all of season 6.

Buffy's sexy dance: Her dance with Xander isn't flirtation or romance, it's about sex, and power. Buffy uses her sexuality as a weapon: to make Angel jealous, to hurt Willow, to prove her power over Xander. Interestingly enough this seems to mark the beginning of the end of Xander's crush on Buffy. Up until their bump and grind, he had been unwilling to discuss Buffy's questionable behaviour. Afterwards it seemed that his idealized vision of Buffy had been seriously tarnished by her casual use of him -- he's very quick to turn on her throughout the rest of the episode. And she never did thank him for saving her life...

Buffy's confrontation with Angel outside the Bronze isn't just a challenge to fight, it's a come-on. This connection that Slayers have between violence and sex is something Faith will later explain. Buffy also notes in BtVS 7.7 that vampires have a similiar attitude: "sex and death, and love and pain, it's all the same damn thing to you."

The penultimate scene in the classroom shows how forgiving the Scoobies are, and how important their support is to Buffy. However she does not articulate the problems that led her to that point, she is instead relieved and allows a semblance of normalcy to return. But since her conversation with Holden in 7.7, I suspect that the guilt Buffy felt over endangering her friends was not something that went away. Neither does the belief that they do not truly understand her. Her need for her friends and the isolation imposed upon her by her calling is a conflict that continues into season 7.

Further note: The name Absalom has both literary and biblical references. "Absalom, Absalom!" is name of the Southern Gothic novel by William Faulkner, reputedly one of his greatest and most difficult books. The source of his title was the biblical figure Absalom, a son of King David. He was known as the father of peace. Absalom was killed in battle and upon hearing of his death David said: "O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!" (2 Sam. 18:33. Comp. Ex. 32:32; Rom.9:3), quote from

Date Posted: 08:31:30 11/18/02 Mon
Author: anom
Subject: 2 comments
In reply to: ponygirl 's message, "Re:"When She Was Bad" Annotations (7.7 spoilers)" on 08:31:30 11/18/02 Mon

"And she never did thank him for saving her life..."

Well, no. Because she's not thankful. Even from the moment she regains consciousness in Prophecy Girl, she seems harder, emotionless. Being killed had a deep effect on her. I think it scared her at a very deep level. How could she face slaying again if she let herself feel that fear? And Xander put her in the situation that caused her to feel that way. OK, ultimately the Master was responsible for that, but if she'd stayed dead, she wouldn't have had to feel it.

"The name Absalom has both literary and biblical references....The source of [Faulkner's] title was the biblical figure Absalom, a son of King David. He was known as the father of peace. Absalom was killed in battle and upon hearing of his death David said: 'O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!'"

That's not exactly the whole story. The name Absalom means "father of peace," but the biblical Absalom hardly lived up to it. He rebelled against his father more literally than most sons, making war on him & even capturing Jerusalem. So his death in battle was not in behalf of his father but quite the opposite. Handsome & spoiled, Absalom had always been the favorite of David, who said the words quoted above after his son's death in spite of his betrayal.

What this says about the vamp of the same name, who seems to have dedicated himself to the effort to bring the Master back rather than trying to take his place, I don't know.

When it comes right down to it's probably just a cool- sounding name :) (NT) -- ponygirl, 10:42:41 11/18/02 Mon

Date Posted: 23:36:44 11/17/02 Sun
Author: Rook
Subject: Re: "The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 23:36:44 11/17/02 Sun

Small continuity note: It's hard to hear, but at the very end of the episode, after the music starts, you can hear Wilow say that Sunnydale doesn't have a miniature golf course...however later on, they visit one with Ted, and in S3, the Mayor brings it up again.

Foreshadowing: Joyce: "I'll just be happy if she makes it through the school year": The irony here is, of course, that she doesn't.

Date Posted: 06:13:25 11/18/02 Mon
Author: Rahael
Subject: Absence (and heavy meta) in When She Was Bad (mild spoilers for Conversations)
In reply to: Rob 's message, ""The Annotated Buffy" Update Announcement/Official "When She Was Bad" Thread" on 06:13:25 11/18/02 Mon

These are initial thoughts.

More later.

Firstly the title. I'm sure it comes from the nursery rhyme:

"There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.
And when she was good, she was very very good
And when she was bad, she was horrid"

This ep has so many great lines, it is no surprise that it was Joss who wrote it.

There's a great opening scene with Xander and Willow - everything is quiet. We, the television viewers, have been away for the summer, just like Buffy has. We learn that there have been no real Vamp attacks while Buffy has been away. The minute she appears of course, a vamp strikes

"It's like they knew I was coming back"

But of course they did. A new season has started.

When Buffy's face first appears in shot, she looks right at the viewer and says

"miss me?"

And it's as much said to the viewer as to Xander and Willow. Very meta. Appropriately enough, Xander and Willow are playing the movie quote game, before Buffy turns up with a few witty quips of her own.

Buffy's absence

The entire conversation leading up to her arrival circled around her absence. The hero is absent from the picture, until she arrives, signalling her arrival with some action hero-y Vamp ass kicking.

But Buffy continues to be emotionally absent for most of the episode.

Her coming back is not only from LA, but from death. The miss me is even more poignant because it is a question, not a statement, and because we might never have got Buffy back.

Throughout the episode, we get reminders of Buffy 'not being there'. Xander tells Buffy she should have been there when they buried the Master. But Buffy went away, she absented herself from the closure of burial.

She doesn't go off to see Giles, she says casually that she'll see him at school. Quite obviously, Buffy is harbouring resentful feelings toward him. The father who let her down, who didn't protect her. This is signalled by the fact that Giles is the outer covering for the Master in her dream. A sign that to her, all men are monsters underneath, even the good ones. A viewpoint hammered home by Angel, a beautiful man with a monster underneath.

Perhaps Xander, too contains a monster. Buffy hasn't found out yet - perhaps the sexy dance was her taunting him, testing the boundaries.

In fact, she punishes all the men in this ep - her father, by being distant, Xander, through sex, Angel through coldness. But underneath even that is the worry that all these men act this way to her because she is the real monster. The one who deserves to be sent out to die. The one who deserves to be killed, to be reproached, to be ignored. Her acting this way is an expression of how she feels she is treated, and also her internalisation of her low opinion of herself.

Her comment to Giles, when he asks her how she is:

"Live and kicking" is a pointed reminder she could be dead and motionless. I see more resentment in her other comment to Giles: You're the Watcher. I just work here . Meaning, I'm the person who risks my life. You just watch.

I think this ep ties in excellently to Conversations, and Buffy's superiority/inferiority complex. None of the others can understand what she goes through. It's 'her' figth. The prophecy is all about her. She's the person who has to go and fight danger. She puts everyone in danger by assuming it's all about her.

But at the same time, she feels like dirt. She acts out what she feels she is.

Hank says that She was just, I don't know, distant. Not brooding or sulking, just....there was no connection. the more time we spent together, the more I felt like she was nowhere to be seen. .

This is both an ironic metanarrative point - Buffy is invisible to Hank during the Summer, because she only lives during the TV season, but also that she's missing. She's lost inside herself, and she's disconnected herself from everyone, both physically and emotionally. Here's a another metaphor of invisibility as alienation.

As Ponygirl points out, Buffy is lost between the borders and boundaries she patrols for society.

Even in her dream, Xander is trying to get a response from a distant Buffy whose thoughts are elsewhere:

Xander: Buffy! Buffy!

Buffy: Fine! I'm Fine.

When Willow asks what she's thinking about she says 'nothing'.

She doesn't bother telling them, because they won't understand. Which is kind of ironic because this is actually a dream she is having and this particular Willow and Xander are parts of her.

When Angel visits her, he tells her that she missed him. But she hesitates too long with her much emotionally softer "missed me?". She had been harsh with him until he admitted it. But he had gone by then - he missed her comment.

And Buffy's echoing of her earlier question, missed me shows that her deepest worry was that she is of no consequence at all. She is beneath them, dead, buried. Part of her was killed, and hasn't woken up to new life yet.

Buffy's death wish

I think in this Ep, Buffy, having escaped death, longs for oblivion. Throughout the First Season, the Master's presence, lay seething underground, the hidden shadow behind all the eps.

In this ep, the Master again lies undergound, and his influence is just as baleful. He 'rises' in Buffy's dream, which is an ironic counterpoint to the fact that Colin is trying to ressurrect him. In fact, just as in Season 1, it is Buffy who allows him to escape. She is the one who is so affected by him, that she allows his influence to be felt long after his death.

In fact, Colin's attempt at ressurrecting the Master is simply a metaphoric statement of Buffy's continuing fight with him.

I think Buffy's reaction to Giles' interpretation of the Latin text of the prophecy is really interesting. She says that the Master must feel close to her, because he tried to kill her. But what it really reveals is that she is projecting. She feels close to the Master, who lies dead and buried. She feels that she too is dead. Dead inside, disconnected. Unmissed.

In fact, Xander even suggest this:

Hey, maybe when the Master killed her some mystical bad guy transference thing happened"

In fact this does seem to be what happened, but only emotionally, only physically.

So her comment to Xander, that she hadn't thanked him yet for bringing her back to life had suppressed anger in it, an anger expressed in the aggressiveness and meanness of her sexuality in that dance with him. Thank Xander? She wants to punish him!

She says to Angel that she's moved on to the living. But she hasn't really. She's lying in that grave, that space between life and death.

Buffy makes the point in the Bronze by creating a hugely tense, dramatic sitaution, where she gets to control everything, and leaves Xander, Willow and Angel, rooted to the spot, hurt, controlled by her - and then she leaves. Expressing her feeling both of absence, but also expressing all the tense, unresolved feelings she has.


It's almost as if the Master's body acts as a commentary on Buffy's emotions. She says to Giles:

" I went by his grave last night, and they have a vacancy"

She doesn't resolve her emotional absenteeism until she smashes the very physical body of the Master. A question in terms of the Show's mythology has always been why the Master left a body, unlike every other Vamp. Well, as always on Buffy, the disjuncture is really important. It signals that the Master isn't dead yet. And Skeletons are associated with death. So the fact that his grinning skeleton is left behind is a very big sign that Buffy has huge issues with mortality.

In fact, I think Buffy's afraid that she's so lost between the space of death and life (the distance of which is measured by a grave, the grave of the Master) that her fear is that her friends cannot see her, cannot understand her. That there's no more space left for her in life.

Which is why in the last scene, Buffy gets some reassurance that Willow and Xander have saved a seat for her. And that in the first scene, the real point is not that Willow and Xander can't wait for Buffy to get back, but that she's not there, and she's worried whether she still fits into Sunnydale, the land of the alive.

Date Posted: 07:32:27 11/18/02 Mon
Author: CW
Subject: Re: Absence (and heavy meta) in When She Was Bad (mild spoilers for Conversations)
In reply to: Rahael 's message, "Absence (and heavy meta) in When She Was Bad (mild spoilers for Conversations)" on 07:32:27 11/18/02 Mon

I think in this Ep, Buffy, having escaped death, longs for oblivion.

My point of view is the opposite. I don't think at this point Buffy viewed death as anything, but a horror. I believe her 'nasty act' was a way to isolate all of her friend's from horrid helpless deaths she suffered in Prophecy Girl. What Buffy discovered in When She Was Bad, was that her being isolated protected no one. It just made it that much harder for her to protect people when they needed her. And it in no way eased the burden of facing death every night.

It was only after Fool for Love and especially after her noble death in The Gift, that the oblivion of death actually began to look attractive to Buffy.

Date Posted: 08:02:45 11/18/02 Mon
Author: Rahael
Subject: Fool For Love
In reply to: CW 's message, "Re: Absence (and heavy meta) in When She Was Bad (mild spoilers for Conversations)" on 08:02:45 11/18/02 Mon

But didn't Fool for Love suggest that there was a secret wish in every Slayer for the thing they dealt out?

Also, maybe I'm projecting here but it is totally possible to view death as a horror, and yet to long for it. Buffy takes risks all the time. She walks the fine line.

Sometimes, when you come too close it starts to haunt you.

I mean, this is a girl whose natural home is the graveyard. Who kills every night. Who has experienced death twice.

Who sleeps with the undead. Repeatedly. And because she finds death a horror, she repulses herself. But she is totally enmeshed in it.

But I think we just view her nasty act quite differently. I don't think she's merely protecting her friends.

Date Posted: 08:30:55 11/18/02 Mon
Author: Rahael
Subject: Rob
In reply to: CW 's message, "Re: Absence (and heavy meta) in When She Was Bad (mild spoilers for Conversations)" on 08:30:55 11/18/02 Mon

Ps - when I say that Fool for Love shows that the Slayer has a complex relationship with death (hey, she lives in both lands!) I don't mean that Spike along to fulfil the deepest wishes of their girlish hearts, and then use their blood as a grisly aphrosidisiac with his loony Vamp girlfriend.

After all, it's Spike who points out that it could be any Vamp that provides the fatal blow. It's luck not skill. Any newly risen Vamp could have that 'one good day'. It's what adds that poignancy to the Slayer dying young thing. Plus it makes them less of a victim.

E-mail submission from Peter James:

Xander: Um, oh, okay, I got one. (imitating Charlton Heston) 'It's a

madhouse! A mad...'

This line was repeated in Season Four¹s ŒThe Freshman¹ by Oz ­ different context, but still pretty funny.

Xander: (interrupts) Y'know, I just gotta say that this has been the

most boring summer ever.

The Œboring summer¹ Xander refers to was most probably the result of The Master¹s death, causing a mass exodus of vampires from Sunnydale. The First Season certainly contained evidence that the Master operated a patriarchal system over the town¹s vamp population, and through his death and the Hellmouth being sealed up again in ŒProphecy Girl,¹ the mystic energy that drew evil to the town was probably dissipated for a while.

However, if you want to have a look at what happened to them that summer, check out ŒHow I Survived My Summer Vacation,¹ one of the Buffy teen novels. Not continuity per se, but worth investigating.

He reaches up with his napkin and gently wipes off her nose. He takes

muchlonger than he needs to and looks into her eyes. He brushes his

handagainst her cheek. After another moment he starts to move in for a

kiss. She responds in kind and tilts her head. They stop just short of

makingcontact and linger there a moment.

This brief mutual attraction between Xander andWillowforeshadowed their eventual relationship in early Season Three, and indicated thatWillow¹s Season One love for Xander might not be unrequited. It wasn¹t followed up though, unless you count the spell in ŒBewitched, Bewildered and Bothered,¹ and with Buffy¹s return from LA seemed to have been quickly forgotten by Xander.


Please continue!


[> Somewhat surprised no one mentioned this sooner. -- CW, 21:23:56 11/18/02 Mon

Cordelia in the alley to Buffy - "Whatever's causing the Joan Collins 'tude, deal with it."

Joan Collins was the reigning queen of evening soap opera 'bitches' in her role as the Alexis in the series Dynasty in the 1980's. One of her most famous TV roles besides Alexis, was that of the social worker Edith Keeler on the Star Trek Episode "City of the Edge of Forever," who must die to save the future. Even as a starlet, Joan Collins fit the role of a beautiful, dark-haired, scheming woman. In the 1950's movie Land of the Pharoahs, she played an evil Queen of Egypt, who murders her husband to gain power for herself, only to be tricked into sealing herself forever into her dead husband's pyramid.

[> [> Re: Somewhat surprised no one mentioned this sooner. -- Rook, 00:08:16 11/19/02 Tue

And, just as a side note, this isn't the last time Buffy's referred to as "Joan"'s the name she gives herself in TR. Now, that's commonly taken to be a Joan of Arc reference, but in light of this it could be interpreted very differently.

[> [> [> there's a third time -- Etrangere, 02:59:32 11/19/02 Tue

In Wrecked, Dawn speaks about Buffy as being a "Joan Crawford" IIRC

[> Possible new look for the site's front page...Check it out here! -- Rob, 23:22:03 11/18/02 Mon

So far, the new design has been winning in the poll, so I went ahead and made a full mock front-page. You can see it here.

I would love any comments you might have, about anything from your opinion about the way it looks vs. the old site look, to loading time. I'm still on the fence about this...not sure if I want to change it or please help me decide!!

And thanks to the 30 people who voted so far! :o)


[> A couple of additional observations -- Dan The Man, 07:33:07 11/19/02 Tue

Some additional "parallels to Becoming":

10) Buffy wins the final fight physically but it breaks her emotionally.
11) Buffy and Angel hold each other as she cries (In WSWB, the hug occurs right after she has stopped the ritual. In Becoming, the hug occurs right before she stops the ritual.)
12) After the battle is over, Buffy is afraid to face her friends (In WSWB, she has to go to school and once there, she meets up with Giles who convinces her that she can¹t run away from her friends. In Becoming, she never goes to school because she was expelled, and decides to run away.)
13) Despite Buffy¹s fear that her friends won¹t accept and/or forgive her, the entire Scooby Gang is ready to have her back without the slightest hesitation. She has an incredible group of friends. (In WSWB, they illustrated this by saving her a seat in class, by telling the want to spend time with her, and by making a joke about the events of the previous night. In Becoming, they illustrated this by actually actively seeking her and awaiting her arrival despite the fact that several of them would probably be better off in bed.)

Buffy¹s thank you to Xander?

"And she never did thank him for saving her life..."

"Well, no. Because she's not thankful. Even from the moment she regains consciousness in Prophecy Girl, she seems harder, emotionless. Being killed had a deep effect on her. I think it scared her at a very deep level. How could she face slaying again if she let herself feel that fear? And Xander put her in the situation that caused her to feel that way. OK, ultimately the Master was responsible for that, but if she'd stayed dead, she wouldn't have had to feel it."

Interestingly, this foreshadows Buffy¹s future anger at the gang for taking her out of Heaven which also demonstrated with dance in OMWF (6.7). Buffy seems to find it easier to accept her death than to accept her life. Also, she does eventually thank Xander in final line of Inca Mummy Girl (2.4), when she says ³I had you to bring me back.²

"A sign that to her, all men are monsters underneath, even the good ones. A viewpoint hammered home by Angel, a beautiful man with a monster underneath.
Perhaps Xander, too contains a monster. Buffy hasn't found out yet - perhaps the sexy dance was her taunting him, testing the boundaries."

That statement isn¹t quite accurate. In The Pack (1.6), Buffy witnessed the animal inside Xander, while he was possessed by the hyena¹s spirit, and it tried to rape her. (As a side note that puts an interesting spin on the fact that Xander seems to be more worried about Spike since the attempted rape in Seeing Red (6.19) than Buffy is. Also, it makes Spike and Xander parallels even more interesting, may have to post about that sometime soon.)

Dan The Man

[> [> Good point re Hyena Xander -- Rahael, 08:05:38 11/19/02 Tue

Make that all three of them - Giles, Xander and Angel. And Giles has his inner Ripper too.

Of course one could argue that Xander was simply possessed.

[> [> [> Spike was also possessed -- by the demon which made him a vampire -- Sophist, 09:31:04 11/19/02 Tue

[> Re: "The Annotated Buffy": WSWB Thread #2/Link to Poll -- MaeveRigan, 10:18:42 11/19/02 Tue

Buffy: Because I don't trust you. You're a vampire. (gets a look) Oh, I'm sorry, was that an offensive term? Should I say 'undead American'?

Besides the obvious take-off on "politically correct" terms here, a few essays have been written on vampires (and other demons/monsters) as metaphorical versions of real life threats. For example:

Tonkin, Boyd. "Entropy as Demon." Reading the Vampire Slayer. Ed. Roz Kaveney. London: Tauris Parke, 2001. 37- 52.

Wilcox, Rhonda. "'There Will Never Be a "Very Special" Buffy': Buffy and the Monsters of Teen Life." Slayage: The On-Line International Journal of Buffy Studies 2 (March 2001)

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