November 2002 posts


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That was the most shocking ending to an episode ever, IMO. (7.8 spoilers) -- Rob, 20:24:26 11/19/02 Tue

Oh my God!

I screamed that out loud as I watched the end of the episode. I am completely dumbstruck. This season really is going to be no-holds-barred, anything can happen. I'm just like to say a hearty "Harumph!" to anyone accusing the show of being too light this year--an accusation I don't even understand, besides "Him". Haven't heard many people here say it, but on other places I have.

But this episode was brilliant, ingenious, and heartbreaking. That last moment...I am literally shaking. I just finished watching it. And I don't have much to say but Holy F#&*@ S&@!

And that's the most coherent thought I can make at the moment.

Rob

[> Re: That was the most shocking ending to an episode ever, IMO. (7.8 and future spoilers) --
Kenny, 20:55:30 11/19/02 Tue

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope the guy at the end really killed Giles. If they do that, anything really can happen this year.

Of course, I say that knowing they're currently filming three eps with him, and he still has some to go to make his 10 (can we make it 13 since it looked like three were filmed in England and he didn't have to travel?)

Of course, if he dies, there's the question of how he'll be used from here on out. The most obvious answer is that he goes all Ben Kenobi. Which would be kind of cool. After all this time working for the CoW, a less-than-cooperative orginzation, he could REALLY be working for Buffy's bosses. I think it'd be a nice way to wrap up his story. Plus, as much as it would kill me to watch it, I'd love to see the scene where Buffy and Willow find out he's been killed. As much as they're doing their own thing now, they know they can call him if needed. And all of a sudden it's gone. You can't pick up the phone and call him. You can't ask him how to pronounce demon names.

The more I think about it, the more I hope he doesn't survive that scene. I love Giles, but from a dramatic standpoint, now's probably the best time for him to die.

Ooh, ooh, Ghost!Giles and Ghost!Jenny coming back together to help! I think I need to turn fanboy mode off now.

[> [> There's an even worse possibility...(Buffy 7.8) -- Rob, 21:01:11 11/19/02 Tue

That ASH's next appearances on "Buffy" are as the Big Bad impersonating Giles. I'm completely unspoiled, btw, but it is a possibility.

Rob

[> [> [> My thoughts (Speculation within) -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:51:11 11/19/02 Tue

We didn't see the axe blade enter Giles's head for two reasons:

1) it would seem a little too exploitive and brutal.

2) so the actual death can be in 7.9, which is a Drew Goddard episode. As I've stated before, I think a recurring character may be killed in each of Goddard's episodes.

[> [> [> & the worst thing about that is... -- anom, 23:09:29 11/19/02 Tue

...if Ripper goes ahead into production, it'll be a ripoff of Sixth Sense.

But then shouldn't that scene have been in Conversations with Dead People?

Seriously, though, Rob: whoa. I hadn't thought of that. Hope it's wrong!

[> [> [> This is echoing OnM's theory about the Big Bad (spec) -- KdS, 08:49:39 11/20/02 Wed

OnM has suggested that the various morphing entities seen over S7 are the spirits of former Big Bads in the service of the BIG Bad. He suggested that Richard Wilkins was being held in reserve to [SPOILER CENSORED]

If Giles is dead, could Wilkins be being held in reserve to impersonate him? His relationship with Faith in the past seemed a dark parody of Buffy/Giles.

[> [> [> Yeah, that was my first thought after the heart- pounding stopped. -- Deb, 10:50:11 11/20/02 Wed

And you say people are complaining about this season?

[> [> [> Giles -- meritaten, 22:35:59 11/20/02 Wed

It might be good writing to kill Giles, but .... I just do't think I'd be able to appreciate it. Giles is my favorite character. It would ruin the show for me.

I imagine this isn't a popular viewpoint, but we're talking about Giles!!!! I'm still holding out for some magical protection spell.

[> No. I refuse to believe it. I WON'T believe it. (sob) (spoilers for 7.8) -- cjl, 21:07:52 11/19/02 Tue

First Jonathan--now this?

It's not going to happen.

The first scene in next week's ep is Giles putting up his sturdy left arm and deflecting the axe blow from Evil Hooded Guy.

Right?

RIGHT?!?

[> [> RIGHT. Hehehe. Don't worry, it will be okay! I think... -- MayaPapaya9, 22:25:42 11/19/02 Tue


[> [> Re: No. I refuse to believe it. I WON'T believe it. (sob) (spoilers for 7.8) -- Kay, 22:45:39 11/19/02 Tue

Keep in mind that Joss is developing a show for the BBC starring ASH as Giles. Now the project has been put on hold till the end of this season, it would be difficult to do if they killed Giles off. Not impossible, but difficult.

[> [> [> Re: No. I refuse to believe it. I WON'T believe it. (sob) (spoilers for 7.8) -- Haecceity, 08:47:43 11/20/02 Wed

But haven't they always said that Ripper would be "about ghosts"? Thus the rumored involvement of Amber?

I always thought they meant "ghosts of the past".

Despite this, I still think (hope) we won't be watcher-less this soon.

[> [> Re: No. I refuse to believe it. I WON'T believe it. (sob) (spoilers for 7.8) -- leslie, 09:42:48 11/20/02 Wed

"The first scene in next week's ep is Giles putting up his sturdy left arm and deflecting the axe blow from Evil Hooded Guy.

Right?"

I'm thinking a quick drop to the floor followed by kicking the guy's legs out from under him. And then some lovely Ripperish interrogation that sends Giles quick like a bunny back to Sunnydale.

[> I'm gonna have to kill Joss. -- HonorH, 00:06:26 11/20/02 Wed

And possibly David Fury, and maybe Jane E. as well. I hate, I hate, I hate cliffhanger endings! Especially when they involve Giles and sharp objects!

[> And furthermore, do you know what I think the wankers will do? -- HonorH (getting really steamed), 00:33:35 11/20/02 Wed

Leave us hanging! Yes, that's right: they'll leave us hanging. We won't get to see the rest of that axe-swing, and Giles will show up in Sunnydale some weeks hence, and things will be all ooky, and we'll have to guess, along with the Scoobs, whether this is really Giles or the BBW! I hate these people! See how mean they are?!?

[> [> You're right...That's SO probably what's going to happen! -- Rob, 10:45:26 11/20/02 Wed


[> [> I feel for you. I really, really feel for you. (Sea 7 future Spoilers) -- Deb, 10:57:41 11/20/02 Wed

But I think we will know what happens "next time" because I've heard he brings the slayerettes to town -- as himself, or as the BB. I don't know. This is how I see the scene though. He ducks down to see is he can hear a heartbeat, and the axe thingy lodges in the wall or the furniture. He stands and fights his way free and help save the future of Slayerhood.

[> [> [> Trajectory issues... (Spec BtVS Next Ep.) -- Briar Rose, 14:06:58 11/20/02 Wed

By looking at the trajectory of the blade, it would nick Gile's ear and land in the arm of the chair. The flat of the blade is facing the camera and then the edge of the blade is facing the camera. There is a strong arguement for it missing the sweet spot and not bringing much more than stitches and anger.

I also heard some third hand scuttle butt this Sunday from an extra on the set last week that Giles is playing a part in the unmasking of the Mind Bending Morpher. Take that as you will, but the past two rumours I've heard from that source were correct in the end, even though they were based on actor's quirks more than anything. >*L

And if they kill Giles right now, I'm gonna have to beat all of ME with a wet noodle!!!!

[> Comfort yourself with thoughts of Wesley! (7.8 spoilers/AtS S3 spoilers) -- Marie (whose cast just came off - YAY!!!), 01:31:57 11/20/02 Wed

After all, Rob, a lot of people thought Justine had taken out Wes, and that didn't happen, did it?

Don't worry, it'll all come out in the wash!

Marie

[> And to think I thought the ending was Lame. -- neaux, 04:10:01 11/20/02 Wed

Sorry to put a damper on your excitement.

But honestly I thought the so-called "surpise" ending of Rupert's almost beheading to just be plain stupid.

#1 Reason. I posted a link just yesterday on ASH and the RIPPER Series.

#2 Reason. Giles is a badass and you know he has some magical forcefield or something up his sleeve.

Long live Giles.

[> [> Me too, neaux... Still do. (spoilers for 7.8, faux spec) -- PepTech, 07:22:32 11/20/02 Wed

Giles' head wasn't popped up enough for a proper beheading, because he was crouched over the other guy. I predict Robson, with his dying breath, grabs Giles' tie and pulls him down a couple inches. Oh, and adding to the lameness:

A) These hooded dudes had been quite effectively using knives for how long? Now suddenly it's an axe?

2) If the hooded guy had swung overhead, instead of side to side, there'da been quite a bit more certainty in the strike. That would also fit with their previous MO (blows to the torso)

I only have to go back to last week's Spikerrific ending to be more shocked/surprised. Or "Seeing Red". This was just a garden-variety "see you next week, suckers!" Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Agreed with above posts - better for the plot if Giles had been killed, but the Ripper spoilers make that extremely, extremely unlikely. And may I add I am *so* glad I haven't been reading spoilerslayer.com this year. Nothing against tensai, who runs a fantastic site, but this (unspoileredness) is way more satisfying.

[> [> [> possible answer to 1 of those -- anom, 22:51:18 11/20/02 Wed

"A) These hooded dudes had been quite effectively using knives for how long? Now suddenly it's an axe?"

Maybe the knives are specifically to be used on the (possibly) slayers-to-be. Their unusual shape could be related to ritual use.

[> [> Why it isn't lame. (7.8 spoilers) -- Rob, 11:09:51 11/20/02 Wed

1) Cliffhangers where very-beloved characters seem like they're about to die are NEVER lame, IMO. That's what keeps up interest in the story.

2) We don't know if it was a near-beheading. "Ripper" keeps being postponed. That could perhaps be because this was a red herring by Joss and Co. to make it all the more shocking when Giles is killed...if he is. I read the ASH interview too, and he obviously wouldn't have revealed in that interview that Giles died, if he also wanted it to be a big surprise.

3) It was a very adrenaliney moment, and made most of us viewing NEED to see the next episode immediately after, but we can't.

Rob

[> [> [> I dunno... (still spoilers) -- PepTech, 11:49:52 11/20/02 Wed

1) Cliffhangers where very-beloved characters seem like they're about to die are NEVER lame, IMO.

That's a pretty broad license to grant. Seems to me that if a show - any show, not just BtVS - relies on devices such as a cliffhanger too much, the whole thing gets cliche. Soap opera, even. I expect more from Buffy, and we've gotten more in the past.

Seeing Red featured very-beloved characters in life- threatening situations, and did it in such a way that didn't seem cliche. BtVS suffers less than most shows from the Star Trek syndrome (where only the redshirts die), but we could be pretty confident they weren't going to knock off Buffy. Tara was a blow; visceral, to the gut. Spike in CwDP with the mouth full of blood was a sizzling image. This was just "eh, he'll duck or invoke some spell. Whatever." Of course, this too is just one person's opinion.

Now if they *had* planted the axe in his back... *that* would have been a corker :-)

[> [> [> [> Re: I dunno... (still spoilers) -- Rob, 17:18:28 11/20/02 Wed

The thing is you're positive it was a cliffhanger, and I'm not so sure. In fact, I'm pretty much certain that it wasn't. That Giles was actually killed. But I'm unspoiled, so I guess we'll have to wait until next week to find out.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Well the thing is-- -- HonorH, 20:53:42 11/20/02 Wed

With the nature of the BBW, you really can't be sure. Giles might not be Giles the next time we see him, and that would be far too bad.

[> [> [> Re: Why it isn't lame. (7.8 spoilers) -- meritaten, 22:55:14 11/20/02 Wed

"It was a very adrenaliney moment, and made most of us viewing NEED to see the next episode immediately after, but we can't."

From what I've heard we have only one more episode before the holiday break. We probably won't know if the Giles we see next week is real. I'm going to miss everything from December through the end of the season.

I may just explode.


The properties of blood (spoilers) -- cat, 20:54:28 11/19/02 Tue

Disclaimer: *I'm not certain if this is going anywhere, just vague musings trying to connect in my brain - read at own risk.*

It's been said in the Whedonverse that "It's always about the blood". Both vampire's and slayer's blood have special properties. Both have amazing healing / regenerative capabilities, and apparently the blood of both can brake a thrall (Dracula's blood broke his charm over Buffy, Buffy's blood broke Morphy's charm over Spike).

Spike has always been a little off compared to your standard vamp. Looking at his 'bloodline' he is descended from the Master, who had a habit of making strong vampires such as Darla and Luke. Drusilla, his sire, had the power of prophecy before and after her turning. Spike himself has fed off the blood of at least one slayer in the past, which, as has been stated several times in the series, is very potent. Maybe the reason he had the strength to succeed the trials to regain his soul were due to this 'bloodline'. And maybe it's this 'bloodline' which made him different enough from other vampires to go after it in the first place (Though I'm certainly not discounting the love factor either).

The blood of a slayer is a powerful draught. Spike has tasted it before, and knows how potent it is. I'm wondering if it is as addictive as it is powerful. After all, he now has had a taste of Buffy's. Is he going to be seeking more? Is that what Morphy was after all along - to get him to drink from her? And if so, to what end? A simple kill? That answer seems too easy.

Especially since in Amends, if this Morphy is a manifestation of the First Evil, the goal was the same - getting a souled vampire to drink from the slayer and...what would happen next? Maybe it wanted to have a souled vampire sire a slayer, combining two very powerful blood lines. What kind of evil would that give birth to?

[> Re: The properties of blood (spoilers) -- Caroline, 06:01:21 11/20/02 Wed

Slayer blood may indeed have special properties over and above human blood but I thought that what woke Spike up from his hypnotic trance was his heart. He had stated earlier that if it was human blood he would know. With his burgeoning awareness of his manipulated actions combining with the taste of blood and his love for Buffy (heart) the trance was broken. Spike has told us before that love is about blood and here we have the symbolic manifestation of that.

[> [> Re: The properties of blood (spoilers) -- alcibiades, 11:57:11 11/20/02 Wed

Not to mention, on his first kill, it is the taste of human blood in his mouth which sends him off disgusted out of the lane, even though he is still in a trance and evidently not remembering.

[> [> Re: The properties of blood (spoilers) --
leslie, 13:14:53 11/20/02 Wed

"Slayer blood may indeed have special properties over and above human blood but I thought that what woke Spike up from his hypnotic trance was his heart."

Seems to me it's a bit of both. We've already seen that there are situations in which only the blood of a Slayer will cure a vampire malaise, but when Angel drinks Buffy's blood, although he is in such a state of weakness and confusion you'd think that he wouldn't be thinking about moderation, he *does* stop before he's drained her. Partly that seems to be out of his love for her, but partly it seems that the blood revives him enough that his heart and mind have the strength to override his instinct.

Somehow that slight tasting of her blood resonates with the antidote to the memory spell that Lorne administered to everyone at AI two weeks ago, which he placed very carefully on their tongues.

[> [> [> Re: The properties of blood (spoilers) -- Clen, 16:00:11 11/20/02 Wed

If so cat, if one would want to combine bloodlines, would not Dawn make an acceptable alternative? Buffy has gone to pains to say that they share the same blood, could she be an acceptable alternative? Could she be "the key"? meaning all of the bloodline, none of that pesky strength to overcome?

[> [> [> [> Re: The properties of blood (spoilers) -- cat, 18:09:12 11/20/02 Wed

I have no idea. Dawn may have the same blood as Buffy, but Dawn is not a slayer, at least not that we've seen yet. However, She is the key and her blood has a mystical potency strong enough to open the doors between all the dimensions. I don't know what adding that to the mix would do.


Spiked! A Tale Of A One-Bite Stand (spoils & spec for last nightıs Episode 7.8) -- imp, 21:14:05 11/19/02 Tue

Spiked! A Tale Of A One-Bite Stand (spoils & spec for last nightıs Episode 7.8)

PRIMARY WARNING: If you have yet to watch the most recent BtVS episode, 7.8, read no further.

SECONDARY WARNING: This is my first attempt at starting a thread. Please be kind. I apologize in advance for typos and that this post may read like a ramble. However, please do not misinterpret anything contained herein as a bash; this is not my intent. I am simply not a good enough wordsmith when it comes to stating my gut reaction to something.


³Sleeper² is a stunner! For me, anyway. Fallout from last season and hints provided by the first eps of this season appear to coalesce here. No, I donıt believe I am incoherent. But I just had to type out my initial impressions. I have recorded this episode and have already re-watched it. I will, of course, re-watch it several more times before the end of the week. What did I like about ³Sleeper²? Personally, just about every second of it. As I have posted before, I do not Œreadı BtVS well from certain standpoints. This post is my lame attempt to put my visceral reactions to the episode on cyber-paper.

(As an aside, I canıt wait for next Tuesday‹based on the trailer for ep 7.9)

I thought it was quite nice to see Buffy and Spike get some extensive ³quality time² onscreen, together. Yes, they did bicker and argue. But I also thought they were honest and sincere with one another. Although, I sure hope Spike does not feel the need to resort to such drastic measures to have meaningful conversations with Buffy in the future.

I still have to think some more on the whole killing spree thing. Please pardon the awkward phrasing of the first sentence but I got the sense that Spike was being controlled by IT (thank you ZachsMind, I think), and killed several people in the span of a few days. Apparently Spikeıs chip implant still works. But he seems to be more inured to the pain it causes. Also, I will go out on a limb and speculate that IT is/was controlling Spike‹not controlling Spike by controlling the chip‹just controlling Spike. I donıt think the chip has anything to do with all the ³missing people². At this point, I can offer no concrete evidence for my speculation. So letıs just call it a feeling on my part.

Did anyone else find it odd (in a weird but nice way) that at the end of the episode Buffy said she would help Spike; particularly when one contrasts this in her interactions with him in ³Beneath You²‹where she did not ³help² him? It looks like he may have proven to her that he does have a soul after all. I think I want to commend Buffy for not immediately staking him, especially when he all but confessed to the killings. But as with the previous paragraph above I will have to ponder this some more.

More thoughts and things that made me go hmmm:

* Anya was a riot, wasnıt she? Spike asked her to be specific as to why she was rummaging through his things. She first gave him a blunt lie, and then gave him the blunt truth. To top it off, she seemed appalled that he did not want to go there with her again.

* Xander showed remarkable (for him) restraint in the face of it all. Well, except for a couple of times where his comments and replies were a little too biting? Things are really starting to look bad now for the Xand-man [he says jokingly, right?]

* I am not familiar with Aimee Mann, but the scene at the Bronze(?) was excellent. Especially the last part where Spike was phoning Buffy and Aimee Mann came down a flight of stairs to say that she did not like playing in vampire towns.

* I loved the Billy Idol reference and that Buffy oh-so- casually stated that Billy stole his look from Spike. In the Buffyverse, of course, it makes perfect sense!

* My jaw dropped to the floor when what appeared to be the real Buffy came upon Spike and his girl Œfriendı and urged him to kill her‹and then he did! I had to re-watch this scene several times to sort out in my mind who was real and who was not real. By the way, has Sunnydale had something of a population explosion recently? Is Buffy that good when it comes to Slaying?

* What reserves of inner strength does Spike have to not bite into Buffy at the end sequence? Hopefully, he has overcome his conditioning. [Honorificus, you must be completely devastated! Should you decide to end you existence because of the outcome of this episode, please ensure that dıHorrible will continue with the posting of the Super-Evil Review. This minion would be most grateful and would serenade you with the worst lame-ass toadying in your final moments.]

* Is it too early to start composing a eulogy for Giles? [again, jokingly, eep!]

At any rate, even if this post is a ramble to anyone reading it, I hope it sparks meaningful discussion. Enjoy!


***This post brought to you by a lurking irregular.***

[> you heard it that way too?? (not-very-relevant spoiler for "sleeper" -- anom, 23:39:19 11/19/02 Tue

"...Aimee Mann came down a flight of stairs to say that she did not like playing in vampire towns."

Towns. Plural. I had to play it back a couple of times to be sure, esp. since it didn't sound that way to me in the promo (I thought she was calling Sunnydale "Vampire Town"). So does this imply there are other towns w/high (but sub- Hellmouth-level) vampire populations? Is LA one?

If there are other vampire towns, I wonder if we'll hear more about them.

More tomorrow, when (I hope) it's not so late. I'm already short of sleep--I was up watching meteors at 5:30 AM last night.

[> [> I heard it that way also. (Spoilers "Sleeper") -- Deb, 07:34:44 11/20/02 Wed

Just expands the Buffyverse. I agree with you that the whole show was excellent. My adrenalin was pumping all the way. Spike/William came to his "senses" after he had a small taste of Buffy Blood from the arm. I loved SMG facial expressions when Spike hovers over one side of her neck then the other, and the stake hitting, flying through air and breaking jar scene was just plain great mise en scene.
JM was so hot, but I've said that already at post below. The ending, ohhh. I did more cringing and eye covering during Sleeper than I did during my daughter's first "on the real street" driving lesson. Da**, I've got to leave and finish this research paper.

[> [> The dangers of throwaway lines. -- Darby, 07:45:17 11/20/02 Wed

Okay, first off, it was a funny line, sort of. But it's best ignored, because the implications are staggering.

What the hell (maybe literally) would a "vampire town" be? Would a troubadour-type singer (the only type who would logically be playing the Bronze or Sunnydale - and where did the new entrance come from?) know about vampires? How? It seems like there are only three ways that she would have this knowledge:

Aside - have you noticed how many numbered lists have popped up lately?

- 1) She had heard and seen things at other venues. But if vamps were that well known, would the Buffyverse work the way it does? ("Aimee, I'm booking you into Barstow. It's full of vicious rabid dogs that kill randomly." "Do I get my own dressing room?")

- 2) There are actual vampire towns that hire acts and sign non-aggression pacts. But the Bronze couldn't do that, they don't have the connections (that we know of). And food- chain dynamics don't really allow an ecosystem populated by predators and no prey.

- 3) Aimee Mann's character is a vampire! This makes the most sense, but what low-profile vamp in their right mind (maybe that's the catch) would play the Slayer's town?

- Darby, having way too many thoughts.

And did anyone else's Whedon Sense go off at the "One bite stand" line? That smacks of the many lines or bits Joss comes up with that get kind of wedged into episodes.

[> [> [> Aimee Mann is NOT a vampire. -- cjl, 08:23:25 11/20/02 Wed

She is a wonderful singer/songwriter who's been around since the early '80s, as lead singer/songwriter with 'Til Tuesday ("Voices Carry"). I have photos of Aimee in the '80s (with a freaky new-wave hairdo) and Aimee today. She's aged well, but she has aged. She is also happily married to fellow singer/songwriter Michael Penn (yes, brother of Sean). You're not suggesting there's are entire vampire families in rock and roll and Hollywood?

[Wait. That would explain a LOT....]

Getting back to the throwaway line: in the Buffyverse, there are probably a number of apocryphal tales about vampires and rock and roll, maybe vampire groupies who turn lead singers (what DID happen to Jim Morrison?) or wild psychedelic-era tales of vampiric orgies leading to mysterious disappearances and mental breakdowns (Syd Barrett anyone?) Most of these tales are legend, but there are enough whispered rumors and the occasional actual backstage incident to solidify the reputation of certain cities as "vampire towns."

Besides Sunnydale, I think there are probably a number of "vampire towns" on Aimee's tour schedule, even major cities like Cleveland (remember where Buffy was stationed in "The Wish"?) and Los Angeles (duh). Aimee's booking team could cut the California leg of her tour, but that's tossing aside a lot of cash, and it's almost part of the routine for rock singers to play in seedy, even dangerous surroundings. Still, Sunnydale isn't L.A. The owner of the Bronze must be throwing big piles o' cash at the stars if he's managing to get the Breeders and Aimee Mann to play in a town with a dangerous rep. Where's he getting the money? Can a small- town club like the Bronze be earning that much?

[> [> [> but choices are made, even in throwaway lines -- anom, 11:04:45 11/20/02 Wed

And someone made the decision to make "vampire towns" plural. I suppose it could still be meaningless, but even so, maybe they meant to raise questions in our minds!

On #2, I don't think "vampire town" means the entire town is made up of vamps, just that's there's a high ratio--maybe high enough that they feel comfortable coming to clubs & not maintaining all that low a profile. Even Sunnydale is far from being all vamps, all the time.

And I loved the "one-bite stand" line!

[> [> [> It could have just been a self-reference -- Deb, 11:28:09 11/20/02 Wed

I found it funny that Spike was using the phone at the time,(???) and who gave him Buffy's cell number? His "It's me." I thought was telling. I only use that with people that I am WELL aquainted with, from people I get a lot of calls from, from people who are mindfully *simpatica*.......


Speculation for AtS and BtVS (spoilers) -- Kay, 23:51:29 11/19/02 Tue

Connor's connection to the Beast: It is well known that you don't get something for nothing in the Buffy-universe. Could the Beast be the evil "reaction" to Connor, just like the demon that showed up when they brought back Buffy, or the demon that resulted in the spell that made Jonathan a Superstar. Connor himself states in Rain of Fire that he shouldn't be and that perhaps this is all his fault, being that the Beast appeared where he was born. He could very well be right. This could expain the trivergence of events (his conception, birth, and rasing of Holtz) causing the "purification" (purification by fire?) of the world. Of course, things balance both ways, what if Connor was "made" to balance out the comming of the Beast, which would be why Connor was born a year ago and why Holtz is so important, they needed someone to take Connor and raise him in a fast- forward hell dimention. That would make him old enough and able to fight when the time came.

Wesley said that the prophecy about the vampire with a soul could apply to his son. Perhaps there is doubt as to whose side he fights on, with his father or against him.

Maybe the reason the Beast didn't kill Cordy is because he either knows she will or uses her to drive a wedge between Angel and Connor. This would explain why the Beast mentioned them to Angel knowing he would go there to check on them and get an eyefull.

The Big Bad on Buffy. I think that it is the First Evil, so far the MO has been the same, and the First had evil hooded monk types that worshiped it. In addition, it seems that the First Evil has no power to do anything on its own, it can only persuade others to do evil.

There has been some speculation about the prophecy about the important role of the vampire with a soul and as to if that applies to Angel or Spike. Mabe it could apply to either. In Amends, it was never explained what exactly the First and its priests were trying to accomplish, besides driving Angel crazy. Maybe that was only part of a much larger goal. That would explain why the First has chosen now to stir things up, it needs a vampire with a soul. And since it is getting better responses from Spike (or at least no suicide threats), its priests have started other preparations.

And while the First has tried to get the vamps to kill or more specifically drink from Buffy, does it really want them to kill her. In obth cases the vamps didn't want to and weren't in the best of shape, mentally. Perhaps it is trying to get her to kill them. Hense the "it'll do" comment about Angel's suicide. Or perhaps as I read in another post, it wants to create a slayer/vampire hybrid, or simly upset, distract or even weaken Buffy to the point where it can use her.

[> Hindsight implications about Amends - (warning, not for the faint-hearted) -- KdS, 08:04:14 11/20/02 Wed

When Amends was first broadcast, the most common interpretation was that the FE was trying to provoke Angel into "doing it" with Buffy and losing his soul. However, that was pre-Darla when we thought that "perfect happiness" was just a euphemism for orgasm instead of literal perfect happiness.

After Reprise/Epiphany we can only speculate about what the FE's plan was. I suspect (and I'm a little worried about what it says about the workings of my mind) that the FE wanted Angel to rape and kill Buffy (she certainly would never have sex with him voluntarily) and then realise, as he did after his moment of despair with Darla, that he still had his soul. And after that, well I don't even want to try to imagine what that would do to him. Does anyone have any less grim theories?

[> Re: Speculation for AtS and BtVS (spoilers) -- yabyumpan, 08:55:11 11/20/02 Wed

"I suspect (and I'm a little worried about what it says about the workings of my mind) that the FE wanted Angel to rape and kill Buffy (she certainly would never have sex with him voluntarily) and then realise, as he did after his moment of despair with Darla, that he still had his soul"

That's pretty much how I've always seen the scene in 'Amends' with Angel in the bedroom with Buffy and the FE egging him on. I interpreted 'Amends' as the FE pushing Angel to breaking point, just like W&H were doing through the whole 'beige' arc. For 2 years, Buffy had been the thing/person through which Angel could justify his existance, his reason for acting for good, the sun at the centre of his universe. He felt he needed Buffy to be good. When the FE were showing him just how evil he was/had been, they pushed him towards needing Buffy more to prove that he was 'good'. At that point, his identity was so wrapped up in Buffy that being with her was the only way he could see to be good and because his mind was being so screwed by the FE, just 'taking' her could have in some way given him 'goodness'. His dispair at what he'd done would have made him like putty. It's interesting that 2 years later, he's grown and integrated with the world enough that his dispair was able to make him stronger and give him some clarity. I wonder what his 'dispair' at the Cordy/Connor situation do to him now. I think they, and possibly us, will be surprised. Going back to 'Deep Down', he came back from a situation that sould have caused him to go crazy but infact he seems to have used the time as a sort of retreat, as a way of gaining more clarity and insight about himself and the world. I think he is possibly stronger now, emotionally/spiritually than he's ever been.
I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well, but I think the FE in 'Amends', just as W&H on AtS and now, I suspect, the Beast, don't want Angel 'bad' i.e. Angelus, they want him 'dark'. A corrupt soul is much more easily used and manipulated than a creature with no soul, none of them would have any chance of manipulating or controling Angelus and Angel does seem to be important in all their plans. I think we may find an Angel this season who is fed up with being used as a pawn and will fully realise the insight he had in 'Epiphany', he'll do the 'right' thing because it's right and not because it's part of some plan or prophacy.
I think the Beast maybe a smoke screen for what the BB of this season actually is. We've still got 15 episodes to go, I doubt we're going to spend all that time defeating the Beast.


Pavlov's Bell and the Unshed Tear.....spoilers for Sleeper and some tragic speculation -- Rufus, 03:01:08 11/20/02 Wed


Imagine a world where you are the hero, warm and loved. This is the world that William, or Spike has yearned for since he first picked up pen and inks. He walked in worlds the others couldn't imagine, because they were too busy laughing at the shabby poet who wanted a world where all things rhymed.

Last nights episode and the music of Amiee Mann hover like an unshed tear, the first before the torrent. The song Pavlov's Bell has a mature quality missing from earlier music in the Buffyverse...and Aimee Mann who gets to play herself
says this while decending offstage at The Bronze...

Aimee: Man, I hate Playing Vampire Towns

This distinguishes Ms. Mann as not only a character in the episode who is in fact playing herself, but she is aware of the vampire while most of Sunnydale seems immune to the truth.

The Movie that comes to mind the most while watching Sleeper, is John Frankenheimer's "Manchurian Candidate". In this movie reality is not constant and what you see on the surface may not be real. I went to a site to read about the movie I had watched years ago to refresh my memory. I found this site.

Review by Tim Dirks

Mr. Dirks mentions things from The Manchurian Candidate that I think also apply to Spike in BTVS. First off Spike went missing in action at the end of last season. He went on a quest for his soul, but that was all we saw....the last moments of the show is Spike being told that "We will return your soul". We don't know what happens after, how he gets back to Sunnydale, and in the first episode "Lessons" Buffy meets a very different looking Spike, a man gone insane.

The mood of this pseudo-documentary film masterpiece (from prolific veteran television director Frankenheimer) is paranoic, surrealistic, dark, macabre, cynical, foreboding, and satirical - these elements are combined in a traditional, top-notch suspenseful thriller framework with a nail-biting, Alfred Hitchcock-like climax. The movie displays the emerging role and importance of television in broadcasting public affairs and shaping opinion. It can be categorized within many film genres - it functions as a horror film, a war film, a science fiction film, a black comedy, a suspense-thriller, and a political melodrama (with additional segments of romance and action). Frankenheimer followed this film with another political conspiracy thriller, the starkly black and white Seven Days in May (1964).

Spike may have gotten a soul, but it seems he also has gotten the attentions of the big evil in town. In Beneath You, Spike tells Buffy about his soul....but there is more in there than just his soul.

SPIKE: It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? (presses his fingers to his temples, looks down, and walks toward the altar). And‹and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I‹ and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath‹beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... to hell.

Buffy dismissed Spike as insane while still having feelings for him. She acts impatient and confused. If she could see what Spike does her head would reel. Again what Tim Dirks says in his review of Manchurian Candidate could easily be said of this years episodes of Buffy....

The scene dissolves into the famous brainwashing/dream sequence where Marco and his platoon are present and onstage at a ladies' auxiliary meeting. The images switch between the imagined, delusionary, conditioned point of view within the brainwashed soldiers' heads and actual reality. They have been conditioned, programmed, and manipulated by a Pavlovian Chinese brainwasher to imagine attendance at a ladies' auxiliary meeting/tea party.


It was only in Conversations with Dead People did the altered realities that Spike has been subjected to visit Willow, Dawn, and in a different way Buffy.

Buffy has been faced with the possibility that Spike is not only insane but now killing, killing lots. But we also get to see more clearly what is haunting Spike and why he is digging graves. Spike like Raymond Shaw in Candidate, has been brainwashed, a song a trigger for him to do things he can't remember later. Early one Morning is an old English song that is the bell Spike is motivated by. His memories, like Shaw surfacing in dreams and later flood back in a scene that reminded me of Buffy vs. Dracula in season five. Spike gets all his memories back when under mind control he tastes Buffy's blood.....and what he has done reduce him to the fetal position on the floor. Not only has he killed in the past as an unsoulled vampire, but now a new evil has used him to recruit new vampires for an unknown reason.

THIS IS HOW IT GOES
YOU'LL GET ANGRY
AT YOURSELF
AND THINK YOU CAN
THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE
AND I'LL HEAR
THE CLANGING OF THE BELLS
'CAUSE I CAN'T
STOP YOU, BABY
'CAUSE I DON'T HAVE
THE BRIBERY IN PLACE
NO BRIGHT, SHINY SURFACE
TO MY FACE
SO I WON'T GO
NEAR THE MARKETPLACE...

IT'S ALL ABOUT SHAME
AND WHATEVER THEY WANT
DON'T TELL THEM
YOUR NAME

Spike as a character exists for Buffy, his actions all for her. He would die for her, he would get his soul for her....and evil in the guise of her said sweet words of encouragement as he killed. People thought the real Buffy was a bitch, cold, unfeeling....but think of this, we as an audience see what Buffy can't. The Evil in the basement with Spike and Buffy can only be seen by Spike. But in the end Buffy doesn't kill Spike like the Evil assumed, she dropped her stake and spoke to him close to the way he longed for and the Evil played for him, and us. Buffy killed every vampire in that basement, and she left Spike alive, and part of it is because of his soul, and maybe more.

Buffy: THERE'S SOMETHING PLAYING WITH US, ALL OF US.

Spike: WHAT IS IT? WHY IS IT DOING THIS TO ME?

Buffy: I DON'T KNOW.

Spike: HELP ME. CAN YOU HELP ME?

Buffy: I'LL HELP YOU.



Now I come to the part where the worst fears have to be spoken. In The Manchurian Candidate, there was no happy ending.....Shaw murdered his wife, father-in-law, and in a moment of clarity, destroyed his mother for her role in the creation of a monster, by a Monster. If what Spike continues to parallel what Shaw did in Candidate will we see him destroy the Evil and himself to save those he loves? Will he have been brought back just to die the way Shaw did? Will his imagination be the thing that defeats the control of the Evil he fears. The tragedy will be if he came back to Sunnydale in hopes of paradise with Buffy, only to lose it to fate?

[> Wow. Excellent post -- Caroline, 06:09:47 11/20/02 Wed

I particularly like your tragic speculation at the end. It appears to me that the big bad this year is actually the darker impulses of the scoobies themselves as manifested by the morphy thing, and that self-knowledge for all of them will be particularly important in fighting it off, including Spike. It would be tragic indeed that he dies just when he has reached that moment of self-knowledge and redemption but that's what makes great tragedy, doesn't it?

[> Re: Pavlov's Bell and the Unshed Tear.....spoilers for Sleeper and minor Firefly spoiler -- ponygirl, 06:29:27 11/20/02 Wed

Great post Rufus! I too was flashing to Manchurian Candidate. It does seem to be the start of a Tragic ending, but I'm taking hope in Spike's statement about the chip, that it was done to him, but soul he chose. I have to believe that Joss & co. are going to choose imagination and free will over fate. After all Buffy's specialty is finding the none of the above option to a problem. I also wonder if we're seeing a mild Firefly crossover with Sleeper. The final lines in Ariel seem incredibly hopeful both in their original context and applied to Spike.

River: Time to go to sleep again?
Simon: No mei-mei, time to wake up.

Perhaps Spike is finally about to wake up from his nightmare.

[> [> Manchurian Candidate crossover (7.8) -- alcibiades, 07:21:52 11/20/02 Wed

I doubt Joss is going to borrow the plot of the Manchurian candidate all the way through to its tragic ending -- because where is the originality and the fun for him. And that would make it way too predictable for the fans. Joss and co. routinely borrow plot points from all over the place as influences in his work, but never pull plots out whole and use them as his own finales.

[> [> Re: Pavlov's Bell and the Unshed Tear.....spoilers for Sleeper and minor Firefly spoiler -- lifeson74, 08:14:50 11/20/02 Wed

> I have to believe that Joss & co. are going to choose imagination and free will over fate.

I'm not so sure ... look at what happened to Cassie. The message I took from "Help" was the exact opposite.

[> [> [> Mortality is an incurable disease -- Rahael, 09:41:33 11/21/02 Thu

That's what I thought the message of Help was. The central idea is that Buffy can't save everyone because unlike Vampires, human beings age and die. Which is good and right, because the immortal unlife is a true burden.

I didn't think it was so much a message that Cassie was 'fated' to die that day no matter what Buffy did, but that Cassie's heart was going to give way, and that Buffy brought her something good into what remained of her life. I thought the fated to die thing, with the arrow nearly getting her was just a kind of darkly humourous dramatic irony.

That's all we can do as human beings. We may not save everyone, but we can offer each other our company and friendship, and understanding while we are here. Everyone's heart beats are sounding the steps to our own deaths. We'll never be saved from mortality. Not by anyone.

[> Nice post, but I'm with ponygirl. -- Deb, 07:21:22 11/20/02 Wed


[> Woah *underlining this post for Masq & the gang* -- ZachsMind, 09:22:25 11/20/02 Wed

Just for what it's worth, I wanna vote this one for the archive. Some stuff that ends up in the archive, I wonder why it got there (particularly some of my own crap) but THIS one I strongly nominate for it. It reads well, and any time someone successfully compares Buffy to a show as classy as The Manchurian Candidate, well that deserves an award or sumphin. So *raises a glass of vanilla coca cola in a toast* kudos to Rufus!

[> [> errrm....everything ends up in the archive!! -- Rahael, 09:33:33 11/20/02 Wed

There's no procedure whereby the archivists select deserving posts for posterity.

Masq quotes select posts in her ep reviews, and people can send essays and stories into Fic Corner, but all the posts posted here end up in the board archives. Except for things like "chat?"

[> [> [> ...oh. -- ZachsMind, 10:54:31 11/20/02 Wed

There isn't a place like a 'hall of fame' or something for the particularly good 'don't miss these' kindsa entries? I thought the stuff in the archive was just stuff the PTB particularly liked. *shrug* Okay. Color me confusled.

[> [> [> [> If one particular archivist had his way... -- Rahael, 10:59:22 11/20/02 Wed

The archives would be full of OT posts on evolutionary biology. And very little Buffy!

The hall of fame? well...., subjective, no? Plus there'd be the process of "ooh, will I get picked?". We already have the trauma of "why is no one replying to me?".

Anyway, most of the archive is excellent! By definition! It's a record of a community.

[> [> [> [> It's much easier and faster -- Masq, 11:01:32 11/20/02 Wed

To archive everything than read through all the posts and pick what we like the best. Some stuff never makes it to the archives, though, lots of board business threads, requests for chat, one-liner OT threads, etc.

Some day when I have too much time on my hands and Liquidram runs out of server space, I might start eliminating stuff, but... nah, probably won't happen.

[> [> [> [> [> oh... -- ZachsMind, 11:16:14 11/20/02 Wed

Well okay. I was just going for a creative compliment towards this particular post. Not something I do normally, and wanted to post more than "thank you sir may I have another" or words to that effect. Didn't mean to question the mechanics or inner workings of the whole archival system. Was just trying to be kind and complimentary and stuff.

*slinks embarrassingly off to his corner of the basement under the school and tries to ignore the voices*

[> [> [> [> [> [> The basement's dangerous, stay here with us! -- Scroll, 11:22:33 11/20/02 Wed

I think Rufus will take the compliment in the friendly tone in which it was meant. Yeah, I never knew how the archive worked either, so you're not alone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But I don't have anywhere else to go! *smirk* -- ZachsMind, 11:30:22 11/20/02 Wed


[> [> [> Then where is my speculation (on A4.02) post? -- abt, 14:48:47 11/20/02 Wed

If everything automatically ends up in the archives, then where is my October speculation post based on Heartthrob and Ground State? Can some posts just get missed out?
It was pure speculation, no spoilers at all, I completely avoid spoilers, so it can't have been removed for that reason.

[> [> [> [> Re: Then where is my speculation (on A4.02) post? - - aliera, 15:26:16 11/20/02 Wed

Can you give me an idea of what day you posted it and I'll see if I have it?

[> [> [> [> [> Oct 22, I think. -- abt, 02:41:29 11/21/02 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oct 22, I think. -- aliera, 05:06:55 11/21/02 Thu

Thanks, abt that helps. I have Robbie Burns from you on the 18th but don't see this one on a quick scan. The very easiest way to do this would be if you gave me the title or some some verbiage...? If not, if you can bear with me a bit...I'll give it a go tonight...if someone else doesn't beat me to it... in which case, I'll gracefully and gratefully relax with my music and merlot.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oct 22, I think. -- abt, 13:20:06 11/21/02 Thu

My speculation post went something like this:-


"Angel's heart is capable of beating under the right circumstances (Ground State). (I don't really know what a good condition heart should look like, but I'm assuming it's preserved like his outsides are.)

Might a vampire-to-human heart transplant be possible?

A human is wounded in the heart.
Transplant heart from vampire to human.
Human eventually recovers, maybe a bit faster with some magic.
Vampire can walk in sunlight, is invincible etc for six hours, then dusts. (Heartthrob)"



I must have used the word 'transplant' in my original post, so that'd probably be the best word to search for. I think the post was just titled 'BTVS/ATS spec' or something non- descript like that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oct 22, I think. -- aliera, 16:30:19 11/21/02 Thu

Thanks...the merlot will keep; this is more important. ;- )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oct 22, I think. -- aliera, 18:16:45 11/21/02 Thu

I searched the entirety of what I received for October 1 through November 2 both by your name and key words and I don't have it. I wish I had a better answer for you; I did send a message to Masq so perhaps she'll have an answer where I don't.

[> [> Thanks all and a few things about back to the begining to think about..... -- Rufus, 20:12:54 11/20/02 Wed

From Season one "The Harvest".....

Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures....

In a search for the meaning of this season and Buffy I'd remember that little history lesson that Giles gave everyone, I think it says more than people give it credit for.

[> [> [> Also a bit about the connection between AtS and BtVS -- Rufus, 21:34:16 11/20/02 Wed

When I look at the two shows I see on thing that strikes me.....in BtVS everything is symbolic and seductive, on AtS there is a literal feel about what is going on.

I know I may not be making sense but some of what I think goes right back to the beginning, right back to how mortals started. Look at man....man builds a reality of stone and wood....buildings and societies. The old ones lost their purchase on reality perhaps because they were not as industrious as man, not into structuring a reality where everyone is invested in it enough to miss out the more supernatural events around them...all doing their part, waking up, going to work, in a repetitious way that ensures that no one breaks from the reality they have created. Now, with season seven we see the FE or whatever, back but not in a way that many people can see because it only reveals itself in ways that can be seen by only one or two, it isn't strong enough to manipulate this reality as a whole.

On BtVS we see a more symbolic, mythical story with Buff and her friends as just about the only people really privy to what is going on. In AtS the world is large enough for there to be more layers to society and to how people are open to seeing more around them. This is how we get characters like Gunn who has been a demon fighter for so long, it's a reality to him, he doesn't have to be convinced of it. In Sunnydale we have almost a conspiracy of the middle and upper middle classes to keep the reality going like a machine....even Xander contributes to the reality by his job in construction.

Now that the FE is on the attack mode we see differences in how it is achieved. On AtS we see an attack on this reality that manifests in a way that we see fire rain down on the buildings that have been constructed, starting the errosion of this reality....we have a group of lawyers that work from withing to help chip away at a reality that they choose to work within, they don't think much past the buildings they work in, not really understandig that they contribute to their own end. In Buffy, the attack is through Buffy's friends. If the FE was strong enough it wouldn't have to play hide and seek, but Buffy is the one force that it can't confront face to face, and I'd like to know why.

[> How aware are the citizens of Sunnydale& some music comments -- darrenK, 14:08:26 11/20/02 Wed

Good post.

Aimee Mann is only the second musical guest that I can remember who's performance and song mattered to the plot. The other being Michelle Branch's damn heartbreaking Goodbye to You in Tabula Rasa.

Most of the time they throw a band up there. We see them for 2 seconds, then there's 15 seconds worth of song and that's that.

And Aimee Mann's line (wow! a musical guest with a line!) was great. But my take on the citizens of Sunnydale is that most of them know at least a little bit about the weird shit that happens there.

You see the citizens of Sunnydale are often played as clueless, but I think that's not pervasive. There's too many deaths there, too many massacres, too many missing people, too many kids that don't come home and too many bodies that just disappear from the cemetary leaving big open graves. How many people saw and fought vampires at Sunnydale High Graduation? They didn't all forget. How many parents have lost children only to have people claim to have seen them hanging around local nightspots?

And they don't need to in order for BtVS to make sense. During WWII, the citizens of London stayed there for the Blitz. And that killed more randomly and in larger numbers than the vampires of Sunnydale have managed to. Even after the Nuremberg laws of 1932-33, many Jews remained in Germany, knowing that it was perfectly legal for them to be persecuted, dispossessed and targeted for violence. When crime ballooned during the 1970's, many New Yorkers stayed here and today, despite the continuing terrorist threat, we're still here. (I figure that if NYC is destroyed, I'll go with it. I have absolutely no intention of living in a United States of America that doesn't include a New York City.)

My point being that people are willing to put up with a lot where their homes are concerned. If there are vampires and demons, well, that's just something to put up with. Humans have a tremendous capacity for denial. The denial doesn't need to be of the "vampires can't exist" variety, it only needs to be of the "vampires exist, but they'll never get me variety."

And, in the "real" world, we have the dangers for which vampires are a metaphor: muggers, rapists, burglars, car jackers, home invaders, drug dealers, pimps. These things exist and are we adjust our lives around their existences.

My own earlier statement about NYC is a perfect example of this. Deep down I believe that I really won't be a victim of terrorists. This is despite having watched with my own eyes as they killed thousands of other New Yorkers. But if I give up the delusion that they can't get me, then I have to barricade myself in a log cabin deep in some forest somewhere. And, to be honest, I can't be sure of a regular supply of bagels, fresh mozzarella and Bollywood soundtrack CD's in that forest, so I think I'll stick with my delusion for a little while.

I'm sure that the more observant citizens of Sunnydale feel something similar, just with lo-cal, fat free mozzarella.

dK

[> [> Hooray for Bollywood! Did you see "Lagaan"? It was great fun. -- Arethusa, 14:41:13 11/20/02 Wed


[> [> I'd add the song in CwDP to your list, too.. -- Dyna, 15:48:23 11/20/02 Wed

I've actually been wondering if that song was written especially for the episode. The lyrics seemed so tailored to the characters and their situations--"warm skin, wolf grin" on the shot of Spike, "high tide, inside" for Willow (echoes of Tara's song in OMwF), lines about falling and dying over shots of Buffy. Could a song this fitting really just be hanging around out there, waiting for ME to notice its relevance?

On the other hand, it would be nice if it was something that was already recorded, because then I could buy it. It's really a beautiful song.

[> [> [> Ooh, and then she remembers Google, and answers her own question. -- Dyna, 15:59:00 11/20/02 Wed

Apparently Joss and Angie Hart co-wrote the song. Yay Joss!

[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh, and then she remembers Google, and answers her own question. -- aliera, 16:30:36 11/20/02 Wed

Are the lyrics up somewhere?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ooh, and then she remembers Google, and answers her own question. -- Blood Luvin Girl, 21:57:52 11/20/02 Wed

I think these are the correct lyrics for the song from "Conversations with dead people".

Night falls...
I fall. And where were you?
And where were you? Warm skin,
wolf grin, and where were you?
I fell into the moon and it covered you in blue.

I fell into the moon.
Can I make it right?
Can I spend the night?
High tide inside.

The air is dew and where were you? Wild eyed.
I died and where were you?
I crawled out of the world and you said I shouldn't start. I crawled out of the world. Can I make it right?

Can I spend the night? Alone.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks!... sigh... great lyrics. -- aliera, 06:35:26 11/21/02 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> And here's a link to an .mp3 of the song: -- Dyna, 08:18:38 11/21/02 Thu

http://www.scimple.com/demo_users/wiccawillow/Angie%20Hart- Blue.mp3

The person who posted it remarked that she hoped she'd be able to keep it up on her server for a while, but who knows how long that will be...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Dyna -- alcibiades, 09:15:36 11/21/02 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> i heard some of this differently--any way to find out? -- anom, 22:05:08 11/21/02 Thu

Or would all the Web sources just have someone's guess?

Instead of "Wild eyed, I died," I heard it as "While I--I died." And where you have "...and you said I shouldn't start," I thought it was either "and you said I shouldn't stay" or "...shouldn't stir." If it's the 1st, it could refer to vampires crawling out of the earth & Buffy meeting them w/a stake.

[> [> Another... -- Tchaikovsky, 03:51:49 11/22/02 Fri

I think the 'Prayer of St Francis' at the end of 'Grave' is important. It is a resolution, which parallels Buffy's resolution. But it also admits the beauty of life, as Buffy does walking in that corn(y) field with Dawn.

And the final line, as I've mentioned before, is:

'It's in dying that we're born to eternal life'

During which there is the final cut to the eternally alive Spike in the cave in Africa. When he died, he was born to eternal life. But not in the way the Assisian meant, I'll wager. Classic ME subversion.

TCH


Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- grifter, 03:54:11 11/20/02 Wed

...that Jonathan´s sacrifice in Buffy 7.07 raised the Beast in Angel 4.07?
It wasn´t explained how the Beast was raised in Angel and in this week´s Buffy at least it wasn´t explained what the Jonathan-sacrifice did.
It would fit Morphy to disturb Wolfram & Hart by staging it´s own apocalypse and would keep the Angel gang from helping Buffy out. The Beast in Angel also seems kinda manipulative (what he said to Angel, letting Cordy live).

Would be a pretty cool non-crossover, huh?

[> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- Tess, 08:20:23 11/20/02 Wed

I think its possible that they are connected. The picture on the seal with the thing with the horns kinda reminds me of the beast. Not sure why the seal would be in sunnydale though and the beast actually rise in LA.

[> [> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) --
leslie, 10:55:01 11/20/02 Wed

"Not sure why the seal would be in sunnydale though and the beast actually rise in LA."

Well, Sunnydale seems to have suddenly shifted its location, given that the Santa Monica Promenade miraculously popped up there. Oh no, is this another case of the Morphing Evil? I'm supposed to be going on a date there this Friday! (Right, I will just stay in the ticket line at the theater, no matter how long it is.)

[> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- Silky, 13:27:18 11/20/02 Wed

Didn't the beast say to Angel "Did you think you could save her?" (my cable was goofy at the time so...)

We probably are supposed to assume that the beast was refering to Cordy, but I thought maybe the beast was talking about Buffy and not Cordy...another ME mislead, perhaps.

[> [> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- grifter, 15:14:59 11/20/02 Wed

"Didn't the beast say to Angel "Did you think you could save her?" (my cable was goofy at the time so...)

We probably are supposed to assume that the beast was refering to Cordy, but I thought maybe the beast was talking about Buffy and not Cordy...another ME mislead, perhaps."

Funny thing on the side, I first heard "Do you really think she´s save, William?" Now THAT was quite the mouth-droper! ;)

[> [> [> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- Juliet, 19:16:09 11/20/02 Wed

He said, (I'm fairly sure since I have a tragically scary memory)...

"Do you really think she's safe with him?"

Which, could go either way, too. (Cordy/Connor or Buffy/Spike)

[> [> [> [> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- meritaten, 22:21:46 11/20/02 Wed

Why would Angel care about Spike? I mean, I can see to a certain extent, but not enough for Beastie to use against him.

[> [> [> [> Re: Anyone else think...? (SPOILERS up to BtVS 7.08, AtS 4.07) -- stasio, 11:03:16 11/21/02 Thu

i also thought the beast said "did you think you could keep her safe william?" and then wondered if the beast was confused as there were now two vampires with a soul. i realize that this is a reach and may be complicated by possible ear wax (since i saw no mention of it until now and was looking for it to convince myself i was not crazy)


Spectacular, Apocalyptic Non-Crossover (spoilers 7.8, 4.7) -- Scroll, 06:02:09 11/20/02 Wed

Oh, wow. Wow. I finally finally saw "Apocalypse, Nowish", as well as "Sleeper". Loved them both but "Apocalypse, Nowish" was the one making my jaw drop and my head spin. Wow. I don't even mind the Cordy/Connor scene because it seemed like the thing people do when it's the end of the world: you grab hold of the closest warm body, and you make that one, final connection so you won't be alone. Like Willow and Oz on graduation day. I don't have a problem with Cordy and Connor's age difference. As for Connor suddenly being 18, hey, this is Joss, the guy can't do math. Spike went from 200 to 126 to 120.

Mouths full of blood.
- Dawn, casting out the demon to free Joyce, or what looked like Joyce
- Spike, feeding and turning his one-bite stands, tasting real, human blood
- Cordelia, tasting the blood of the Beast's victims through her visions
- Connor, beaten by the Beast, broken for the very first time, blood in his mouth
- Angel, stabbed in the neck by the Beast, with a gaping neck wound like a vampire's bite and a mouth full of blood

From beneath you, it devours.
- The Hellmouth, showing its teeth
- Spike, and his basement full of vampires
- The Beast, bursting forth from the bowels of the earth
- The Big Bad Whatever, preying on our heroes

Gather them. It's begun.
- Angel to Wes: "You in?"
- Angel to Lilah: "Play it smart."
- Robson to Giles: "Gather them."
- Buffy to Anya: "I don't want my friends out there alone."
- Buffy to Spike: "I'll help you."

Other thoughts:

I'm going to assume that "Sleeper" takes place only hours after "Conversations with Dead People", and therefore "Apocalypse, Nowish" actually takes place after both the Buffy episodes. Or else concurrently. Because I don't see how fire and brimstone raining down on L.A. can be ignored. It's definitely CNN material.

Lilah looking out over the city with the fire raining down reflected in the window -- for some weird reason, she reminded me of Tara. Yeah, I know. Total complete opposites, but the blue top, the way she was hugging herself, the fact she was right in front of a window... I really hope Lilah doesn't die. She's my favourite female character on Angel.

Giles is not dead. Giles is not dead. Giles is not dead.

I love how seriously this apocalypse is being taken. No one is trivialising it a la "Doomed". This End of the World is actually impacting the world: Istanbul, Turkey; Frankfurt, Germany; London, England; Los Angeles, United States; Sunnydale, United States. Animals are going berserk, Spike is insane in the basement (since when do basements in SoCal have dirt floors?), and Wolfram & Hart have been caught with their pants down.

And I have to add this: Wesley and guns. Mmmm, yummy.

Can't remember who wrote this, but I agree that our boys look damn good kicking ass, even when they're the ones getting kicked. The slo-mo fight scenes were delicious. Go Lorne! Go Wes! RIP Gunn's hubcap axe, you were a faithful weapon and Gunn's last tie to his old street crew.

Questions left after the fangirl screaming dies away:

How far is Lilah willing to go to help Angel stop this apocalpyse? She's made a connection with Wes, but how much does she actually care for him when it comes down to the end of the world? How will the Fang Gang defeat the Beast? As Wesley indicated, doing something "large and violent" to the Beast isn't really much of a plan. Clearly this thing can't be stopped by brute force alone.

Same goes for the BBW in Sunnydale; it manifests itself as dead people. How can Buffy fight something that doesn't even have a corporeal form? The Council clearly knows something is up, but what can they do to protect their proto-Slayers from the robed assassins? Will they ask for Buffy's help? What about Faith? Are the assassins after her too?

Why was Cordy sent back to Earth? Her attitude as a Higher Being was rather flippant, but now we find out she witnessed all the death and cruelty Angelus inflicted on the world. She loves Angel, but is conflicted because she knows all the evil he's committed. But this confuses me entirely -- her attitude shift from Higher Being to lowly human is so radical. As an HB, she didn't seem the least bit concerned or compassionate. Something happened to her, and I want it explained or else I'm going to start thinking the PTB have replaced her personality.

[> Cordy (spoilers) -- Marie, 08:34:37 11/20/02 Wed

Why was Cordy sent back to Earth? Her attitude as a Higher Being was rather flippant, but now we find out she witnessed all the death and cruelty Angelus inflicted on the world. She loves Angel, but is conflicted because she knows all the evil he's committed. But this confuses me entirely - - her attitude shift from Higher Being to lowly human is so radical. As an HB, she didn't seem the least bit concerned or compassionate. Something happened to her, and I want it explained or else I'm going to start thinking the PTB have replaced her personality.

I haven't seen any of this series yet, so please forgive me if this reply sounds like a load of rubbish!

Might it be that Cordelia needed to be shown what Angelus was truly capable of, in all it's awful entirety, so that she would be able to kill him if she ever needs to? She's always been adamant she could (see 'Eternity'), but after all, since then they've grown much closer - almost-lovers, in fact. Perhaps the PtB thought she needed a wake-up call, and to be reminded of exactly what it was she was claiming to love.

In 'To Shanshu in LA', when she was infected by Vocah, she saw all the evil things happening to people all over the world, but not specifically the evil Angelus was capable of. And although she saw something of the results of Angelus's evil-doing back in Sunnydale, she didn't see it with her own eyes (i.e. Jenny Calendar actually getting her neck snapped. When she became a Higher Being, it seems she was shown this - there must've been a reason for that.

Does that sound like tosh? Sorry if it does. Just pondering.

Marie

[> [> I think you're mostly right -- Scroll, 09:05:40 11/20/02 Wed

Might it be that Cordelia needed to be shown what Angelus was truly capable of, in all it's awful entirety, so that she would be able to kill him if she ever needs to? [...] Perhaps the PtB thought she needed a wake-up call, and to be reminded of exactly what it was she was claiming to love.

I think Angel and Cordelia both needed a wake-up call, and I for one am glad the PTB have brought home the fact that Angel hasn't always been a nice guy, and often lapses into that not-nice-guy despite the soul, as Gavin Park can attest to once his gag has been removed. But my confusion comes from those brief clips of Cordy as a Higher Being in "Deep Down", "Ground State", and "House Always Wins". She's all shiny and mighty, looking down on earth and seeing Angel's past and present. Cordelia says that as a Higher Being, she saw all the horrors Angelus committed -- but where is that feeling of horror? She didn't look horrified in "Deep Down", she looked positively bored.

I still believe Cordy's summer as "Higher Being" is a misdirection. Something happened to her that doesn't jive with what she 'remembers'. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself clearly. Basically, I'm very ambivalent about Cordy right now (not the Cordy/Connor plot, I actually like that) because her personality seems all over the place.

[> [> [> Re: I think you're mostly right -- Masq, 09:41:06 11/20/02 Wed

"I still believe Cordy's summer as "Higher Being" is a misdirection. Something happened to her that doesn't jive with what she 'remembers'. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself clearly. Basically, I'm very ambivalent about Cordy right now (not the Cordy/Connor plot, I actually like that) because her personality seems all over the place."

I think this is most definitely the case. In my ep analysis of Apoc Nowish/Rain of Fire, I note that not all of her memories of her higher being summer have been returned to her. She suspects so herself.

I also comment that she is definitely not herself. She's depressed and fatalistic. I don't think it's any mistake that they have her watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" on television in her dream. Not that this isn't really Cordy, it is, but we are meant to know not all is right with her at all.

As for Marie's comment about being taken into the higher dimension to learn more about Angelus, I think there is something to this. I theorized in a post a while back that the reason she was taken in the first place is that Angel was one kiss away from a moment of perfect happiness in "Tomorrow", the season 3 finale. The PTB took Cordy away to prevent a return of Angelus, and they let Cordelia know about the dangers of that happening while she was in the higher dimension. I don't think they intended for her to "fight in the higher dimensions" at all, I don't think that was the reason for taking her away.

Also, it's possible that Cordelia wasn't made aware of the whole Angelus thing until after those moments we saw of her in the first three episodes of this season.

[> [> [> Re: I think you're mostly right -positvely bored indeed! -- Angelica, 11:48:07 11/20/02 Wed

Cordy said as much herself in her little "cameo" apperances in the first three episodes - "Someone Get Me Out of Here" and "I'm Bored Out of My Mind" or something to that effect! So this current story line makes NO sense whatsoever, at least not yet. I look forward to finding out the resolution.

[> [> [> [> Cordy -- meritaten, 16:52:43 11/20/02 Wed

Great thread!

I've been trying to figure Cordy out. Before I saw this thread, I started another. So I'll just make one comment here - Cordy is NOT herself! I'm starting to think that the whole reason that she was made a HB was to fulfill some role now, that requires her to act in a way that is NOT typical of her personality.

[> The axe (AtS 4.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 09:27:56 11/20/02 Wed

"RIP Gunn's hubcap axe, you were a faithful weapon and Gunn's last tie to his old street crew."

I know, I also had a moment of mourning when the Beast pretzeled Gunn's axe! It's been his ever-constant companion for two years, you just don't do that to Gunn's axe!

But that made me take the Beast a whole lot more seriously because I think it will make Gunn take the Beast a whole lot more seriously. It just had so much symbolic resonance, not necessarily to Gunn cutting ties with his old street crew, but to Gunn being cut down as a warrior. It was the one thing he still had confidence in.

[> [> Oh, I hadn't thought of that! -- Scroll, 10:01:19 11/20/02 Wed

But now I wonder how his lost hubcap axe will play into Gunn's growing identity/morality crisis. He's always been more action guy, less think-ahead guy. Now that he's been (symbolically) crumpled like a pretzel, will this be a move to more planning and less rushing in where Angels fear to tread? After all, Gunn was the one to stop looking so closely at the sheets of paper and actually intuit their inter-connectedness. He was being quite the Xander in this ep, and I was proud.

But I have to say, I wanted to smack him upside the head for being so snarky to Wes when all Wesley wanted to do was compare notes about the coming apocalypse. I really don't see Wesley actively trying to break up Gunn/Fred, but I see Gunn's insecurities widening the crack between them all by itself. Well, that and the secret murder of Professor Seidel.

[> [> [> Re: Oh, I hadn't thought of that! -- JM, 16:15:09 11/20/02 Wed

And Gunn is the most seriously injured (cause Angel's a vamp). And the only one who's not conscious for the firestorm. The Beast literally crumpled him too.

[> [> Re: Being Cut Down As A Warrior -- AngelVSAngelus, 16:59:25 11/20/02 Wed

That was quite powerful, though I must say I was much more affected by ANGEL being cut down as a warrior, as a champion. After attacking with weaponry, then hand to hand, and then with even the monster within, nothing would phase the beast.
When that guy tossed our broody hero nonchalantly behind him, to send him hurling fifty feet into the air off the rooftop, a chill was sent up my spine. That moment, for me, was the most emotionally charged, because if a Champion is rendered ineffective and amusing to the enemy, what hope is left?
The only thing remaining for those four when each of them failed and fell was their friendship, and it was touching to see Wesley returning to saving and embracing Gunn rather than threatening him with knives to his throat.

[> Spike's Apocalypse Nowish (spoilers 7.8, 4.7) -- alcibiades, 23:26:09 11/20/02 Wed

It occurs to me that Sleepers really could have also easily been called Apocalypse Nowish since the plot line is about Spike realizing the horror, the horror of returning to what now feels to him like cannibalism.

It is really his dark night of the soul, his darkest hour before the DAWN.

I wonder if Tara's "Be back before dawn" will have any relevance.


A Couple of Thoughts (SPOILERS for Sleeper and Conversations with Dead People) -- Robert, 08:50:56 11/20/02 Wed

Upon rewatching the last couple episodes, I had a couple thoughts which I want to throw out here.

I am wondering if maybe the big bad here (and maybe also on AtS) isn't the Powers-That-Be. In the discussion that the fake Cassie had with Willow, she said;

Fact is, the whole good verses evil, balancing the scales, I'm over it.

This appears to be a hint that the PTB and the powers of evil may be one and the same. It would certainly be an interesting development.

My other thought has to do with the discussiion between Dawn and the (possibly) fake Joyce. Joyce says three things.

1. Things are coming. Listen, things are on the way.

2. I love you and I love Buffy.

3. When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you.

Dawn tells Willow about the first two and hid the third, which was expected. Since the first two points are demonstrably true, Dawn justifies on this basis her assertion that the apparition really was her mother and that her mother spoke the truth. This would then lend support for the truth of the third point about Buffy being against Dawn.

The interesting aspect to all of this is that the third point may turn out to be technically true. In other words, Buffy and Dawn may disagree about something minor at some point. However, the apparition is attempting to loosen Dawn's with Buffy, to weaken the whole group. The second best way to lie is to tell the literal, but not complete, truth (ie. say nothing which can be disputed).

[> More Thoughts (SPOILERS for Sleeper) -- Darby, 09:45:14 11/20/02 Wed

I've never trusted those sneaky SOB PTBs, and it's just the sort of "See? They DO exist in Sunnydale's corner of the Buffyverse!" thing that ME would do.

"Hey Angel, you wanna call your bosses and tell them to get the *%$# out of my town???"

Some other random thoughts to add to the mix...

Could Lurky (Spike's soul-granter) and Morphy be in cahoots, or even the same critter? And don't the robed guys look a lot like the First Evil's minions - we'll know when we get a look at their eyes. 'Course, they could be Glory gnomes, too...were they short?

What sort of status does Giles have at the Watcher's Council? Are they pissed at him for leaving Buffy on her own? Do they realize how much of her success is linked to him, or do they just blame him for the unorthodox aspects? Is he wearing a titanium hairpiece, or walking around in a perception-clouding spell that would make the axe miss (after all, the actual robed actor couldn't have been swinging to hit ASH, it was all camera angles - he had to be just a bit off from where he appeared to be, and they could make that work for them). And is Giles just discovering a Slayer-elimination plot he hasn't bothered to tell Buffy about?

Have the bad robed guys been taking out Watchers all along, too? And why hang around after getting a Slayer and Watcher - was there something else in that apartment that they needed, or was it merely to service the plot? And I forget, did they leave the door open on the grisly murder scene while they still were there?

Is Spike's accent more variable than it used to be?

Did Xander go to Spain for that client meeting?

Could Anya's scene with Spike have blundered any further into Bad Sitcom Land, and is that some yet-undiscovered effect of the Hellmouth? Hey, I know that she's the Wacky Neighbor, but let's not have her be the Wacky Neighbor, y'know?

Since when do vampire fangs stick completely out of the mouth, like a Hammer Films flick? Although they did look a lot like the face they give to the non-speaking vamps - was that dialogue a late addition?

Isn't anybody suspicious that a whole roomful of vampire victims, gathered over maybe two weeks, all rose at the same time??? And was that scene a subliminal ad for the Buffy X-Box game?

What happened to all of the books that used to be at the Magic Box? Shouldn't Willow have been reading rather than surfing, or can't Mac product placement be done on a grimoire?

- Darby, who amazingly is on no stimulants beyond caffeince.

[> [> I'm thinking Darby needs . . . -- Sarand, 12:14:56 11/20/02 Wed

a tranquilizer maybe. All interesting questions, though. Some responses.

Is Spike's accent more variable than it used to be? Yes, but I think that's because sometimes we are hearing William, who had a more upper middle class type of accent. When he was talking to Anya, after her proposition, he didn't sound like Spike. Her new hair style was "quite fetching?"

"Did Xander go to Spain for the client meeting?" Huh?

Yeah, those fangs were something else. Loved the "one bite stand" line though.

The rising of the roomful of vamps? I just assumed they all got sired in the same night. And the one in the bar got sired the same night as Holden (and god knows how many others). But I probably shouldn't assume. Would have been an awful lot of work to do in a short period of time, transporting and burying the bodies. I wonder if Spike felt "surprisingly full" on the days after his nights out.

[> [> Re: More Thoughts (SPOILERS for Sleeper) -- Isabel, 12:52:22 11/20/02 Wed

The vamps rising at the same time could have happened if they were under the control of the Morphing Evil. Perhaps vamps rise in 24 hours give or take normally because it's a passive thing that'll happen. Maybe it can be altered if someone powerful enough knows what they're doing.

Re: The books in the Magic Box. Aren't they at the dump or the recycler because Willow sucked all the power and print out of them?

[> [> [> The books -- Darby, 13:13:50 11/20/02 Wed

Didn't she suck all the books on magic? There were still plenty in the bookcases upstairs when she wrecked the place, and those are the reference books they used in days of yore...who wants to suck passages into their brain about Farfnarg the Mucus Demon and his Flatulence of Doom?

[> [> [> [> Re: The books -- Just George, 13:36:52 11/20/02 Wed

"...who wants to suck passages into their brain about Farfnarg the Mucus Demon and his Flatulence of Doom?"


Well... Willow was evil at the time.

-JG

[> [> [> [> Re: The books -- Malathustra, 15:32:15 11/20/02 Wed

In BtVS 4.1, when Giles reveals to Willow that he is thinking of leaving, it is in the context of Willow doing a bunch of archiving and cataloguing and scanning of the books so that they will have the information they need after he leaves. That could also explain why Willow is doing most of her research on the computer...?

[> [> [> [> [> Oops -- I said 4.1 when I meant 5.1 -- Malathustra, 20:59:25 11/20/02 Wed


[> [> About the mass rising -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:33:15 11/20/02 Wed

We've seen before that vampires rise at varying times. Some wake up within hours, others take days, so there's no reason they couldn't rise at the same time. That takes care of "how"; I have two guesses about "why":

1) Vampires are in a state of semi-consciousness following their turning. They can choose when they rise, and in this case they rose at the same time because they could hear the battle happening overhead.

2) The Shapeshifter tapped into that force/connection of evil that Holden mentioned in Conversations with Dead People to wake the newly sired up when it need them.

[> I agree (Spoilers through 7.8) -- Sophist, 09:55:33 11/20/02 Wed

about point no. 2. In fact, I think we saw some evidence of that last night. There is now good reason to believe Spike sired Holden Webster, and to believe he killed the girl whom he walked home in CwDP. OTOH, the "truth" we saw was limited; it wasn't the whole truth. Buffy and Willow both seemed to recognize this, but I'm not sure Dawn has. I suspect that "Joyce" did tell Dawn the truth, but that it will be misleading. I also suspect this of Cassie's words to Willow.

As for the identity of the BBw, I'm still clueless. As usual.

[> Re: A Couple of Thoughts (SPOILERS for Sleeper and Conversations with Dead People) -- Arya_Stark, 10:32:23 11/20/02 Wed

What if "Joyce" was telling the absolute truth?

One of the manifestations of the Big Bad that Spike has been seeing... is Buffy.

If she was really Joyce, perhaps she was warning Dawn about the Big Bad taking on Buffy's shape.

Just a random thought on my part.

[> Down with the PTB (SPOILERS for BtVs through 7.8 and AtS through 4.7) -- Buffyboy, 16:46:53 11/20/02 Wed

I am wondering if maybe the big bad here (and maybe also on AtS) isn't the Powers-That-Be. In the discussion that the fake Cassie had with Willow, she said;

Fact is, the whole good verses evil, balancing the scales, I'm over it.

This appears to be a hint that the PTB and the powers of evil may be one and the same. It would certainly be an interesting development.

--Robert

Interesting thought, hereıs some development on this possibility. I want to begin by arguing that it doesnıt seem likely that the First Evil is the new Big Bad. Amends, of course is the starting point for all this First Evil.


Jenny/The First

You think you can fight me? Iım not a demon, little girl. I am something that you canıt even conceive. The First Evil. Beyond sin, beyond death. I am the thing the darkness fears. Youıll never see me but I am everywhere. Every being, every thought, every drop of hate.

Buffy

All right. I get it. Youıre evil. Do we have to chat about it all day?

According to the First Evilıs own self-description it is beyond, in the sense of worse than, what would normally be called evil. Normal evil (darkness) fears it and it is what is behind every bit of evil and hatred. This is not a description of something involved in a balancing act between good and evil, but ur-evil itself.

Contrast this with what the faux-Cassie says to Willow: ³Fact is, the whole good verses evil, the balancing of scales, Iım over it.² This seems to imply a change from ³the balancing of scales² to going over completely to the side of evil. This is not what the First Evil was all about; the First Evil hasnıt changed at all in this regard. The fact that both the First Evil and the Season 7 Big Bad both morph into various characters may well be misdirection from ME. The First Evil and the new Big Bad seem, by their own self- characterizations, to be very different entities. In fact as Robert maintains, the new Big Bad does sound more like the PTB than the First Evil. Have the PTB abandoned their balancing act for the side of evil? Actually, I doubt it, but the possibility seems to be there and the PTB seem to be less than advertised. As Darby writes elsewhere in this thread:

I've never trusted those sneaky SOB PTBs, and it's just the sort of "See? They DO exist in Sunnydale's corner of the Buffyverse!" thing that ME would do.

"Hey Angel, you wanna call your bosses and tell them to get the *%$# out of my town???"

I completely agree with Darbyıs sentiments concerning the PTB. Do we have any reason to be anything but extremely distrustful of these powers? At their best they only want to ³even up the score² between the battle between good and evil. At their worst they simple sit back on their collective asses and enjoy the carnage. As long ago as Beginnings, Buffy characterized Whistler, a representative of the PTB, in these terms.

Buffy

You donıt have anything useful to tell me, do you? What are you, just some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil

Whistler

Wow. Good Guess.

Buffy

Well, why donıt you try getting off your immortal ass and fighting evil one in a while? ŒCause Iım sick and tired of doing it myself.

The PTB enjoy watching the conflict between good and evil and, like Adam, as long as the body counts arenıt too one sided theyıre more than happy to simply enjoy the slaughter ³while the pile of debris before [them] grows skyward² if I may quote Walter Benjamin.

And what did the PTB due for Cordy? They made her a ³higher being.² Through their emissary, that jackass Skip, they ³elevated² her. And how did she bask in her beatitude? She got to experience Angel, whom she had come to love, slaughter person after person in his past. And not only did she get to see the carnage, but, lucky her, she got to feel the pain and horror of Angelıs victims as well as Angelıs joy and excitement as he carried out these acts. Iım sure the PTB or their publicists would say that they did it for Cordyıs own good or perhaps for Angelıs. But to me the actions of the PTB seem to be the actions and in many cases inactions of sadistic voyeurs. They remind me to some extent of St. Thoması description of how the souls in heaven would be able to enjoy the rapture of watching unfortunate soulsı misery in hell, as quoted in Nietzscheıs On the Genealogy of Morals. (I referred to this a number of months ago in responding to a post about Hell, but this time I have the quotation.) ³In order that the bliss of the saints may be more delightful for them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, it is given to them to see perfectly the punishment of the damned.²

If the PTD do turn out the be this seasonıs Big Bad on either AtS or BtVS, again this is a possibility I doubt, I for one will only see then to have at long last revealed their true colors.


Full circle--thoughts about trailer for next week's BtVS (so completely speculatively spoilery) --
leslie, 10:19:10 11/20/02 Wed

I haven't had time to read everything below, so sorry if this has already been raised (but I really do have to do some work today...)

The trailer for next week was billed as a "Thanksgiving" Buffy. Remember the last Thanksgiving Buffy? Pangs (which I personally love, just because I get equally obsessed over cooking Thanksgiving dinner, and I have to say I find some truth in Spike's assessment of the outcomes of war). But Pangs was the first episode that brought Spike into the Scooby family--tied to his chair, but still sitting at the table with everyone. It looks like this Thanksgiving, Spike is back at the table--after having been pretty emphatically exiled--tied to his chair once more.

So, Spike's first Thanskgiving came immediately after he was chipped, and he came to the Scoobies for help. They gave it to him reluctantly, and one could argue about how effective their help has been. Now Buffy has agreed to help him when she has even less reason to do so than she did three years ago, yet despite her rationalization to the others that she needs Spike as bait for the BB, she seems to have decided to help him out of compassion, something she did not feel for him before. Even more suprising, three years ago he got gravy for his dinner; next week it appears that the gang has accepted his dependence on blood even if they don't approve of it (anyone else notice how the addiction trope has shifted over to Spike now? "Back on the juice," etc.?).

It looks like next week is a real turning point for Spike in his relationship with the Scoobies: he's come back full circle to where he started. There are two ways this could go: they could start to integrate him into the group for real this time, or he could leave the group forever. I'm actually leaning toward the former, just because if he goes out, the opportunities for interaction with the others become limited and that is where the fun of Spike as a character lies. We would then just go back to Spike sneering at everyone else and getting beaten up, a setup that's been pretty much pushed as far as it will go. So I think this is going to end up with Spike being pulled to the center rather than pushed to the periphery. What he will do there is another matter altogether....

[> Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- alcibiades, 11:07:41 11/20/02 Wed

IOW, maybe he'll leave temporarily and then come back. He still needs to make his journey about himself and not all about Buffy.

On Pangs Imagery, I found it interesting that at the end of the episode he was tied up and facing away from the group, which placed him lower than in Pangs. He is not at the table with them. Who knows if he will be at the table next week either. He is outside of the scope of the discussion as opposed to Pangs when he very much participated even though they didn't always want to hear from him.

Spike is being silent again at the end of the episode. And judging from the last few episodes, Help, Him and CWDP, silent Spike is not a good sign.

I also liked the Restless imagery at the end, in Giles' "death" scene. Plus, the face of the person striking seemed unnaturally whitened with face paint very much like the First Slayer. That can't be a coincidence -- someone borrowing fashion advice from the First Slayer to kill Slayers in training.

Now Buffy has agreed to help him when she has even less reason to do so than she did three years ago,

I really can't agree with this assessment. After everything that has happened between them, and everything she realized in Sleepers and Him, I think she has far more reason to help him. She was about to kill the principle in Him. She knows that killing sprees can be induced externally.

At the end of CWDP, we were left with the external shot of Spike killing the girl, completely otside his motivational field, not understanding why he acted. This week we saw more clearly what is making him tick, although it is not clear yet. Buffy saw less than him, but enough to know he is not acting volitionally and that something is trying to undermine him. Considering everything he has done to help in the past, if this is not an excellent reason to help him -- more so than the one in Pangs -- I don't know what is.

Buffy dismissed Spike's request for help in Help -- surely an ironic twist. I think here she realized she was wrong to do so. As a result, Spike is worse, having been exposed to the BBW longer. She completely misread that situation.

It is interesting however that in both cases, Pangs and here, the putative excuse for helping Spike is to learn more about the enemy: the soldier boys and the BBW.

[> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- leslie, 11:41:55 11/20/02 Wed

I said, "Now Buffy has agreed to help him when she has even less reason to do so than she did three years ago,"

and alcibiades replied: "I really can't agree with this assessment. After everything that has happened between them, and everything she realized in Sleepers and Him, I think she has far more reason to help him."

I was thinking more in terms of the actual danger he poses: in Pangs, he was newly chipped and didn't even know he could hurt demons; now there is an unknown Something that can apparently override the chip at will and without warning. A risky thing to have in the house. From a purely rational point of view, she should have just staked him in the basement, as he expected. Instead, she finally put her own emotional issues with him aside and reacted to *his* cry for help, which really was a major step forward in terms of their interactions.

[> [> Spike in the penultimate scene... -- Caroline, 12:16:04 11/20/02 Wed

was not tied up. I looked quite closely and it appears that he has a blanket wrapped around him. At least I think this is the case unless my eyesight has deteriorated even further. Although I agree that judging from next week's promo there may be a separation before Spike rejoins the SG.

[> [> [> not in the penultimate scene, in the preview for next week... -- anom, 21:00:30 11/21/02 Thu

...we see Buffy tying Spike's arm to the arm of a chair.

Alcibiades said he was being tied facing away from the group, but that scene is in tight focus on Buffy & Spike, & I couldn't really see the rest of the room. There's something colorful behind him, but I couldn't tell if it was the tablecloth or something else.

[> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- Malathustra, 15:26:03 11/20/02 Wed

Is anyone else getting totally annoyed with the way they keep talking about Spike as though he weren't in the room? This seems to be happening over and over again and it's really getting under my skin.

[> [> [> Yep 1000% -- alcibiades, 21:21:01 11/20/02 Wed

I find it really humiliating on his account. Because god damn it, he's a person. In his talk with Buffy last night, she keeps having the urge to divert the talk into sarcasm and hostility and reprisal -- their old dance, and he keeps diverting it back into talking to her with more sincerity and directness than maybe anyone in her life. She doesn't have that level of intimacy with Xander or Willow or Giles anymore. Yet she still continues to treat him like a non- person in front of the others.

Okay she is being compassionate to him -- which is a biggee for Buffy seeing how she has been so damaged by life. But if she would take the lead and deal with him in public like she does in private, it would move things along tremendously.

And I think her failure to do so, the same failure that she had last year but to a lesser degree, is still motivated from her shame about him and the feelings she has for him.

[> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- tiggerlily, 19:30:01 11/21/02 Thu

Hi there! Delurking to say I'm also completely ticked off at the gang's complete disregard for Spike.

The talking about him as if he weren't in the room is only part of it (but a big one). The thing that irks me most is their nonchalance about him regaining his soul; I just can't believe they're not flabbergasted. For all the surprise they've shown, you'd think vamps were doing it every day.

[> [> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- leslie, 10:24:03 11/22/02 Fri

"For all the surprise they've shown, you'd think vamps were doing it [getting souls] every day."

Well, in terms of the ones that the gang has actually had extended conversations with, all of them *have.* It's Buffy who really knows her vampires, and she's the one who is the most impressed with the whole soul business. Second most impressed: Anya, ex-demon. Giles hasn't had a chance to react yet.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- tiggerlily, 19:33:06 11/22/02 Fri

True, he's not the first they've encountered. Though there are only two souled vamps in the known Buffyverse and only one of them *chose* it.

It just seems to me that there should have been more reaction. They seem so impervious to something so monumental. I don't even really care what the reaction is, so long as there is one. If all the fallout took place offscreen, we viewers were cheated, IMO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, I'll give this a shot. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:17:15 11/22/02 Fri

I think it's important to consider how the Scooby Gang views the whole vampire with a soul thing to begin with:

1) In Season 1, even though Angel had a soul, no one really felt up to trusting him because of the vampire thing.

2) In Season 3, when Angel returned ensouled, the Scoobies still held a great deal of hostility against him for what he did as Angelus.

The Gang's reaction to Spike's ensoulment has been pretty non-chalant, but the fact that Angel had a soul didn't leave a huge, giant impression on them either (except for Buffy, of course). Also:

1) The first time the Scooby Gang sees souled Spike, he's got his blue shirt on and is doing his best to act like the Spike of old.

2) Most of them don't care too much about Spike one way or the other. Whether he lives or dies, is happy or sad, or is souled or unsouled.

3) Dawn was of the opinion that the mixture of Spike's chip and his love for Buffy were a soul substitute, thus Spike acquiring a soul doesn't make a huge impression on her (and, incidentally, she thus still holds him culpable for the attempted rape).

All these factors allow me to accept the Scoobies' reactions to Spike as in character.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I'll give this a shot. . . -- alcibiades, 22:32:22 11/22/02 Fri

Geez, Finn.

Your argument always seems to be this is how they all thought at 16, why should they change now. As though the enshrinement of their lack of change was a good in and of itself.

Since they first met Angel many things have happened and they have all changed in vast ways.

Why hold them all to their lowest common denominator instead of having the desire that they learn something new and be open minded. Especially in their early 20s and teens, it's a time in life for learning.

Furthermore, if you heard of someone in your own life that you didn't particularly like or trust doing something amazing, unheard of, wouldn't you be at least interested enough to ask some questions or question your assessment or wonder if you should reassess. Or would you want to hold onto your old opinion because that is how you always felt and you don't have time to be interested and since you always felt that way, that is your character? I'd say the latter was a lowest common denominator approach -- don't challenge yourself to reassess, or even to find out if you should reassess, just go on thinking the same negative thing -- which may have been fully justified once but you are now too lazy to change.

That is why I am not impressed by the Scoobies reaction. It shows a lack of mental plasticity, a bent toward mental rigidity, self absorption and lack of interest in anything profound outside the 5 of them.

As reactions go, it's neither informed nor impressive.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I'll give this a shot. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:11:38 11/23/02 Sat

I do think the Scoobies have grown since their high school years, but as Xander said in "Him": "Yeah, what exactly does that mean, having a soul?" While the Scoobies have undergone a lot of growth, they haven't been forced to think about the whole vampire with a soul issue for the past three years, most likely. The only thing they have to compare Spike's ensoulment to is Angel and how they felt when he was around. I think that, by mid-season two, the Scooby Gang was becoming much more receptive of Angel into the group compared to the last season. And then he lost his soul which stopped acceptance of Angel dead in its tracks and probably set it back a few steps. After Angel came back from Hell, it took close to a year, but he started to become part of the gang again, albeit always on the fringes. Then he left for LA. So, when the Scooby Gang looks back to compare Spike to the only other case of ensouled vampires they know of, they have to start from where they left off at 18.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- alcibiades, 22:09:29 11/22/02 Fri

I'm with you tiggerlily. I think it makes them all seem very small minded and lacking in spiritual imagination. As though they are all so caught up in the routine of their own lives, that nothing outside of their sphere can register as monumental.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, Morphy knows better. S/HE at least realizes that it is very important to suborn Spike with everything he has got because of his importance.

I also admit I have a certain impatience with this as a plot device. It seems to me that it is absolutely clear that what Spike did is huge. We also know that Morphy recognizes it. But now we have to wait for weeks as the Scoobies fail to register its importance in the upcoming apocalyptic battle.

Duh. You think one of them would be smart enough to make the intuitive leap that Spike will be important.

But since we already know this, and week by week they fail to notice it, it makes them seem really slow. So the drama in the plot becomes when are the Scoobs going to recognize the obvious, instead of going somewhere wholly interesting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:13:57 11/23/02 Sat

Um, isn't that exactly what Buffy said at the end of "Sleeper"?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Or it could be first one, then the other/Pangs -- alcibiades, 09:53:37 11/23/02 Sat

Close. I think Buffy now recognizes Spike has been played with. I don't think she or the other Scoobies yet realize that the acquisition of a soul might be vitally important in the apocalyptic battle that has begun or the extent to which what he did was utterly unique.

Morphy/Cassie says wtte of s/he is done with the mortal coil, s/he is tired of keeping the balance.

Well, who is it who broke the balance last year? Willow almost went over to the darkside just as Spike was going over to the light side. That would have kept things balanced. But Spike succeeded and broke the balance in favor of light, because Willow was pulled back by Xander. So that means the side of light won, became stronger. We have seen three slayers in training have been killed so far. Is this a way to counteract the shift in balance? Or as a way to help Morphy win?

No doubt all these things will be connected.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's possible that -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:00:44 11/23/02 Sat

Spike may not have a crucial role in the apocalypse because he has a soul. It's possible that the Big Bad is only manipulating Spike to get at Buffy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> OT - did anybody else notice... -- Sophie, 18:36:51 11/23/02 Sat

this was post number:

~/76665.html

??

S

[> [> The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- ZachsMind, 13:20:11 11/22/02 Fri

Y'know what the Thanksgiving episode reminds me of? These words from U.S. African-American leader Malcolm X:

"Sitting at the table doesnıt make you a diner, unless you eat some of whatıs on that plate. Being here in America doesnıt make you an American. Being born here in America doesnıt make you an American."

And just being with the Scoobies don't make you a Scooby. Spike's no more a Scooby than Jonathan and Andrew ever were and I'll tell you why. Malcolm X could tell you why.

Spike's not a diner.

Sitting at the table that Thanksgiving two years ago, Spike was still not a part of the family, because he couldn't eat with them. He couldn't participate. His hands were literally tied. Metaphorically, Spike is to the Scooby gang how minorities in America were treated prior to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, and how, some rightfully and understandably argue, they are still treated.

Yes we look at the Scoobies two years ago, compare it to how they treat Spike (and one another for that matter) today, and we see despite some progress and some effort on all sides to negotiate a fair compromise where they can coexist in harmony, things are actually worse off than before. While before Spike was at least AT the table but not a diner, today he can't even sit at the table, and the Scoobies don't know what to do with him. Maybe the real metaphor here is the Scooby gang compared to modern America? Or perhaps the United Nations?

Spike can't be a diner right now, because they won't let him dine. He's not so much a part of the family as he is the family dog left out in the rain while the others are snuggily warm inside. Whether he's sitting at the table or not, they're not letting him dine. He's not a diner. He's not a Scooby.

[> [> [> Consider this. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:00:21 11/22/02 Fri

In "Pangs" they were pretty sure he couldn't kill them or anyone else. Now, however, they've been given evidence that he can kill people and has done so, despite the chip or the soul. Spike isn't treated as well now because he's more dangerous than he was in Season 4.

Also, comparing Spike in his soulless state to minority groups isn't such a good idea, unless you mean to imply that people of non-white races are inherently evil? I doubt you mean this, though.

[> [> [> [> Correction -- alcibiades, 14:26:21 11/22/02 Fri

In "Pangs" they were pretty sure he couldn't kill them or anyone else. Now, however, they've been given evidence that
he can kill people and has done so, despite the chip or the soul. Spike isn't treated as well now because he's more
dangerous than he was in Season 4.


Correction. Spike isn't killing people. Something acting through Spike is killing people. And every person there has had first or second hand experience with demonic or magical possession, including your guy Xander. Hyena much.

They know there is a difference between their actions when possessed by a demon, or a demon's quill or a magic spell, or a demonic animal, and how they act when they are not possessed.

Four of them were just possessed in Him. Beyond that, last season both Willow and Anya were taken over by their own darkness. And then Willow just came face to face with Morphy, and resisted it, but hey, all she did was confront it for 20 minutes or so -- not more. She wasn't exposed constantly for weeks and months.

So the fact that they are differentiating so much between how they act despite possession and Spike who is being used, says something for them but not as much as it could.

In their minds, there is still a huge divide between him and them. And that is what Zach was commenting on -- the essential us-ness and them-ness of the situation.

IOW, to put this into non-racial terms, because Spike is still a THEM, he is much more suspect than one of them in the same situation would be. Anya, who just 2 weeks ago killed a fraternity of boys gruesomely is querying Buffy about whether she believes him. Willow, who recently flayed Warren to death, is telling Buffy that drinking blood changes someone. But both of these two women committed their acts volitionally and only repented through intervention and help. Yet neither seem entirely sure, at the beginning of the conversation, that Spike is entitled to any.

Yet Spike is not in their situation.

So I kind of feel that in some respects it's a case of letting the speck in his eye confuse them about the mote in theirs.

OTOH, I recognize that ME has to make Anya and Willow less sympathetic here because, dramatically, they HAVE to make Buffy be the one who rescues Spike despite some minor opposition from her friends. HOWEVER, it definitely feels manipulated and OOC to me on Willow's part, and on Anya's to some extent as well.

[> [> [> [> [> On those other occassions. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:50:26 11/22/02 Fri

I never said Spike was to BLAME for the murders. I merely said that he was dangerous. From the standpoint of who poses the greatest threat, Spike is worse now than he was in Season 4 post-chipping. Unlike those cases you have mentioned, Spike can come under the Shapeshifter's influence at any time.

Another thing to consider is that the Scooby Gang isn't sure exactly what is controlling Spike or whether it completely submerges his free will or is just a powerful influence. In fact, there is probably still some doubt about whether Spike was being controlled at all. While we know the truth, we've been shown more of the puzzle than the Scoobies have.

And on one last note: I didn't see any of the Scoobies, least of all Willow or Anya, acting out of character or unsympathetically in "Sleeper". After all, if a friend of mine was trying to house a vampire who could become homicidal at a moment's notice, I'd probably react in the same way that they did, if not more vehemently. And, while Willow and Anya were in Spike's position before, Willow could only come back to the gang after several months of training to not be evil, and Anya only after she proved herself willing to die to reverse her evil and became human as well. Spike has yet to do so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On those other occassions. . . -- alcibiades, 15:59:23 11/22/02 Fri

I never said Spike was to BLAME for the murders. I merely said that he was dangerous. From the standpoint of who poses the greatest threat, Spike is worse now than he was in Season 4 post-chipping. Unlike those cases you have mentioned, Spike can come under the Shapeshifter's influence at any time.

So could Buffy in Normal Again. But they all forgave her immediately even as she was in the throes of trying to kill them. Xander forgave Willow even as she was in the midst of trying to destroy him and the entire world.

And the only reason all the Scoobies were able to shake off the various possessions they have been under is that Buffy or one of the others, including Spike at various points, helped them to do it.

And, while Willow and Anya were in Spike's position before, Willow could only come back to the gang after several months of training to not be evil, and Anya only after she proved herself willing to die to reverse her evil and became human as well. Spike has yet to do so.

That is the thing. Spike is NOT in their position. Spike is NOT currently evil. Having something act through you is not the same as you acting. Willow and Anya both acted. Spike is being acted through. He has no will at all whereas they both did. They both desired to do their evil actions. Spike did not.

Secondly, Spike has not once but twice been willing to die to become redeemed. Death was the outcome that awaited him if he failed any of the many tests of the ensoulment. And again, once he realized he had killed in Sleepers, without knowing how he did it, he moved himself into position for Buffy to kill him and told her to do it quickly. No one intervened on his behalf on either occasion to get him to do the right thing. He did it on his own behalf -- unlike both Willow and Anya.

So I really don't get where you are coming from when you say that Spike has not been willing to die to reverse his evil. In his case, there is no magic solution which will bring the people to life again and make everything all right, just as there was no magic for Willow to bring back Rack and Warren. Nothing Spike would do would bring them back at this point. That is why his story is more profound than Anya's. She was saved by a demon ex machina who made it all all right -- and all the ugly deaths she was responsible for went away.

Spike simply has to live with the weight of his victims' deaths on his soul, and in the state he is in now, that seems quite punishment enough, seeing how he had no desire to hurt them in the least. Rather, his compelling desire was NOT to hurt them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On those other occassions. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:07:06 11/22/02 Fri

All right, to make it clear: in the Normal Again incidents, Buffy was suffering from a demonic venom that the were able to cure. They don't know how to cure Spike, and thus would be a bit cagey about him since they have no clue when the Shapeshifter might take control. And, as for Willow, it was implied that only unconditional forgiveness would be able to stop her in her apocalyptic rush.

Second, I do believe that Spike isn't to blame for the deaths that happened while the Shapeshifter controlled him and that he does deserve forgiveness. However, while he got a soul, I don't get the impression that he ever told anyone what he had to do in order to get it. Also, I think the most important aspect to understand is what Buffy said to the Scooby Gang "You weren't in that basement." None of them saw what Spike was going through or how much he was being messed with by the currently unknown evil. While they are accepting Buffy's assertion that something is controlling him, I think that they still doubt it a great deal. They're no strangers to doing evil while possessed, but in all of those cases someone was able to come up with a definitive explanation for exactly what was in control and found a way to drive it out. With Spike, the evil force can still control him at times, and it takes much more of a leap of faith to believe that he is under control as they really don't have any proof one way or the other. Buffy finds it easier to believe that the Shapeshifter is controlling him since she saw his confliction and torment during the basement scene. The others, who never got to see Spike like that, are having a harder time accepting that as the truth.

Also, there's the whole issue about whether a souled vampire is responsible for what he did in his unsouled state. I don't want to argue that here though simply because it's one of those things that most likely will never be resolved.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Spike did far worse than that... -- ZachsMind, 16:40:18 11/22/02 Fri

Willow's redemption: accept Xander's unconditional love for her. Go to England with Giles and hang out with the sisters. One could say this is no payment, but Will still has to go through life without Tara, and will forever know what she has done and the cost to her innocence and even sanity.

Anya's redemption: accept the cost D'Hoffryn laid down for leaving the sisterhood of vengeance, which she thought would result in her own death but instead resulted in the death of Halfrek, which is worse because D'Hoffryn went for the pain. Death was too easy an escape for Anya.

Spike's redemption: He had to ask Buffy for help. Any man would understand where I'm coming from here. Take the pain it costs a man to ask for directions when his wife insists they're lost and he's been insisting for the past hour that he's not. Multiply that a few million times and that's the pain it took Spike to look up at Buffy and admit he couldn't do it alone. Admit he needed her help to stop this thing from controlling him.

If that ain't eating crow I don't know what is. He took his medicine at the end of "Sleeper." Like Anya & Will, Spike too is on the road to redemption. What I wanna know now is this:

When's it gonna be Xander's turn?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree on one point. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:23:30 11/22/02 Fri

I agree that Spike has never been accepted by the Scooby Gang no matter what he does. The answer to this problem: he should stop trying to be a Scooby.

The fact is, he keeps trying to be part of a group where nobody (with the possible exception of Dawn) likes him. The Scoobies have never hid the fact that they don't like him and don't forsee accepting him into the Gang unless there are extreme circumstances (those times when his vampire strength is needed in a life-or-death situation or he has access to vital information). However, I don't see the Scoobies being under any requirement to befriend him. The fact that Xander is willing to let Spike live in his apartment is very generous considering the fierce enimity between them.

[> [> [> [> I don't see the correlation. YMMV. -- ZachsMind, 15:47:11 11/22/02 Fri

In season four Spike HAD been a cold killer until very recently, and at that time they were still questioning whether Spike was honestly neutered or if this was just yet another trick on his part. They didn't trust him that Thanksgiving any more or less than they trust him now. In fact, they've never really trusted him. They've let him occasionally sit at their table, and he's done his best to play by the Scooby's rules. He's tried to be a good little Spike. He's eaten crow. He's let bygones be bygones. Occasionally he loses his temper and punches Buffy or Xander, and one way or the other he pays for it.

They won't let him be what he is naturally. He can't be what they think he should be. He has gone far above and beyond what he should have to do in a compromise. He's gotten a soul, in a drastic and heart-wrenching attempt to be accepted.

What have the Scoobies done in return? Have they done ANYTHING more than occasionally offer shelter or a refrigerated cup of pig's blood? How does that compare to going to hell and back? Spike's done as much as the civil rights protestors who walked to the Capitol over a quarter of a century ago to see Dr. Martin Luther King speak. Spike's been to the gates of hell. He's accepted a lifetime of torment and pain. He's answered the call. He's taken the journey. He got the pot of fools' gold and found the horn of plenty had gone sour. Willow's done the same. As has Anya. Buffy may yet have to answer that call. There's only one character that comes to mind who's turn evil and then faced redemption. Faith. Does that make five?

Children, go where I send thee
How shall I send thee?
I'm gonna send thee five by five
Five for the gospel preachers.
Four for the four that stood at the door.
Three for the Hebrew children.
Two for Paul and Silas
One for the little bitty baby
That was born, born, born in Bethlehem.


Hallelujah! Amen! Preach it brotha!

...okay I'm gonna go smoke now. I need some air. *smirk*

[> [> [> [> [> five by five -- leslie, 08:24:04 11/23/02 Sat

Good lord! Is *that* where "five by five" comes from? The phrase has really flummoxed me since the beginning. Serves me right for being such an unregenerate non-Christian, I guess! So, is this a phrase that Faith picked up from that preacher she rescued when she was stark naked?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: five by five -- alcibiades, 09:56:56 11/23/02 Sat

No, it is some kind of radio transmission terminology. Five by Five meaning the best, clearest.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Alcibiades is correct. I was just going for the funny irony thang. Weird though, eh? -- ZachsMind, 18:29:27 11/23/02 Sat


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> nevermind - try "one by one" -- Sophie, 18:32:09 11/23/02 Sat


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: five by five -- Sophie, 18:29:32 11/23/02 Sat

That's what I've always heard, alcibiades.

I'm wondering if Zach's got the words right - wasn't that a song?

[wanders off to search the 'net]

S

[> [> [> Re: The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- leslie, 08:34:17 11/23/02 Sat

"Sitting at the table that Thanksgiving two years ago, Spike was still not a part of the family, because he couldn't eat with them. He couldn't participate. His hands were literally tied. Metaphorically, Spike is to the Scooby gang how minorities in America were treated prior to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, and how, some rightfully and understandably argue, they are still treated."

Well, first of all, this certainly fits in with my "vampires = blacks" theory of the Buffyverse.

However, since it isn't Tuesday yet, and I, at least, am resolutely unspoiled, we don't know whether Spike is "at the table" or not. I think it's pretty clear from my initial post that I agree there's been a failure to incorporate Spike to the group since Pangs, but I do think that this return to Point A now offers them a chance to learn from their errors last time round--all of them, including Spike-- and try to change. I'm not saying he was to be brought back to the table as a complete member right this instant, but that they have to make the choice to *begin* to accept him. Two things make me think that this is a real possibility: the fact that we saw Spike himself take the first step toward asking for help last week, and the fact that what we saw in the trailer for this week seems to show the gang--or at least Buffy and Willow--accepting the fact that he needs blood, and their language indicating a new understanding of that need as, not an innate and evil aspect of his nature, but as an addiction that he needs to be cured of; he can't go, um, well, cold turkey.

[> [> [> [> Re: The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:20:33 11/23/02 Sat

OK, I'm not trying to be rude here, so please imagine the following question having an actual questioning voice, it is not rhetorical:

Why does Spike have to be accepted into the group?

I always saw the Scooby Gang as being a collection of friends first who just happened to be heavily involved with the supernatural. Given that pretty much no one in the group likes him (excluding Dawn, although even that is questionable this season). I just don't see why the Scooby Gang had to accept Spike given that none of them are really his friends, and the clashes of their personality indicate that they never will be.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- leslie, 15:53:15 11/23/02 Sat

"Why does Spike have to be accepted into the group?"

Well, in the most simple terms, and as Spike has pointed out himself (albeit with ulterior motives), they're all coworkers. Whether the Scoobies as a group like it or not, he has decided--or been forced--to fight the same fight they're fighting, and on the same side. Furthermore, the whole gang may be snarky about it, but they all acknowledge that he's useful in that fight. Call me wacky, but it seems to me that if you're spending extended periods of time working with someone, you should at least be polite. Unless they write Spike out of the show, I'd like to see at least that much civilized and adult behavior from the Defenders of the Buffyverse.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:18:38 11/23/02 Sat

Well, giving Spike a place to live is stretching the politeness quotient quite a bit, don't you think? And most of them (especially Xander) probably didn't feel too much inclined to be polite to Spike in the past because he was always the king of snark, and usually gave out more jibes than he took. Notice that in "Him", once Spike assumes his quiet act, he and Xander appear to work together well without the frequent exchanges of insults.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Irony of Pangs: Spike meets Malcolm X -- alcibiades, 17:32:41 11/23/02 Sat

Notice that in "Him", once Spike assumes his quiet act, he and Xander appear to work together well without the frequent exchanges of insults.

Because Spike is missing in action from his head, either fighting Morphy or dealing with the pain of all the visions. We never see anything from his POV so we don't know if people are appearing to him or not and he has to work really hard to ignore to keep his mind focused.

Not really a healthy model of a friendship when the only way Xander can deal with Spike is when Spike is a shell of himself. Doesn't say much for Xander.

Plus, it's pretty clear all the Xander fans liked it because Xander was in total control and Spike was playing humble.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Who ever said. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:47:26 11/23/02 Sat

That they should have a "healthy model for a friendship"? What's wrong with two guys sincerely hating each other? Also:

Not really a model for a healthy relationship that the only way to stop Spike from being mean and snarky towards Xander is to reduce him to a shell of himself.

It goes both ways.

[> [> [> Has he wanted to be a Scooby? -- Malandanza, 18:07:31 11/24/02 Sun

"And just being with the Scoobies don't make you a Scooby. Spike's no more a Scooby than Jonathan and Andrew ever were and I'll tell you why."

I don't think Spike ever wanted to be a Scooby until Buffy died. He did his best to make himself unwelcome, belittling and insulting Giles, Willow and Xander at every turn. Suddenly he wants to be pals and wonders why the other kids don't want to play with him? I see his predicament as similar to Cordelia's back in S2 and S3. She was sort of a Scooby, but that didn't erase Willow's memory of the years of abuse any more than Xander, Willow and Giles have forgotten all the times Spike slapped away the offered hand of friendship.

If we're looking at Buffy friends who have gone homicidal, we appear to have two patterns: The Willow model (unconditional forgiveness, moving heaven and earth to save her even at the risk of Buffy's life and the lives of her friends) and the Anya model (kill her before she kills again). On the surface, it appears that Spike is getting a much better deal than did Anya. However, Buffy did say that she had thought about Anya's case extensively and we should take her at her word -- we see that she is working hard to avoid staking Spike and should assume that she looked for other solutions before picking up the sword. I also think that if Anya had bared her breast and accepted death the way Spike did, Buffy would not have slain her.

So, I think there is really only one pattern that Buffy follows -- she tries to save everyone but is willing to slay those who insist on being damned.

I do think there is something of a double standard in Spike's treatment: he is not shackled and caged like Oz. But he has nothing to complain of at the hands of the Scoobies or Buffy so far this season -- they are trying to help him when (slaying him would simplify their lives so much more quickly and save any future victims of Pavlov Spike).

[> [> [> [> Well, there are exceptions. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:43:56 11/24/02 Sun

There's Spike coming to the Magic Shop in "I Was Made to Love You" and there are several occassions when Spike approached the Scooby Gang for help. But, in season 6, he started to pop by more and more often. I think Spike actually did begin to think of the Scoobies as friends, albeit being almost totally friendless allowed him to expand the definition a great deal.

[> [> [> [> [> Are the Scoobies friends or family? -- leslie, 12:32:58 11/25/02 Mon

I think this gets back to my original impetus to write about Spike and Thanksgiving--the holiday when you go home to your family, the people who have to take you in (remember in Pangs the cut from Buffy and Riley talking about just this concept, to Spike wandering around under the blanket). Although there is a great deal of ambivalence on everybody's part, it really seems that Spike has become a member of the Scooby *family*--you may not like him, but you have to put up with him. There is much more leeway in deciding who will be a friend, and you can cease being friends with someone after a falling-out, but family, even if you never see them, the relationship still exists. I think part of the problem for the Scoobies and Spike is that they keep trying to think about their relationships in terms of friendship, when it really is about family. (Spike may be a little more aware of this, since he was used to thinking of Darla, Angel, and Dru as his "family" and he's really trying to recreate that with the Scoobies.)

[> Okay. First I need to see the first Thanksgiving -- Deb, 11:12:37 11/20/02 Wed

Liked the line about "the juice" too, and Buffy's face when Willow suggests Anya's blood. I wonder what she could have done now? I agree with you also about Spike moving in more toward the center. Poor Spike, life just seems to be a series of hijackings. . . I don't want to go back to my depression paper. It's making me feel depressed and making me wonder if I should take my daughter to a shrink. No. No.

[> Re: Full circle--thoughts about season 7. -- Darby, 11:28:15 11/20/02 Wed

I'm on a bizarre hypothesis kick today - probably aftereffects of writing exams.

Could be be literally going "Back to the Beginning"? Could each ep of Season 7 be a "companion" to earlier eps, working backwards? My pairings (this is called advocacy science, chilluns - taking an iffy premise and shoehorning the data onto it).

Lessons - Two to Go. This is obvious, cause-effect connection.

Beneath You - As You Were. Demon-hunting with the ex, misplaced romance, a Spike from Nowhere.

Same Time, Same Place - Gone. Poofsies!

Help - The Weight of the World. An examination of Buffy's responsibilities and limitations.

Selfless - Triangle. Anya!

Him - Buffy vs Dracula. One word: thrall.

Conversations - Restless. What's that mean?

Sleeper - Who Are You / Superstar. Objects in mirror (speaking of which, how would Spike recognize "himself"?) are not what they appear.

Never Leave Me - Pangs. Could be? Maybe?

- Darby, who's starting to worry about brain disease about now.

[> [> Re: Full circle--thoughts about season 7. -- Rook, 13:27:38 11/20/02 Wed

>>(speaking of which, how would Spike recognize "himself"?)

We know vamps show up on video from Angel, and we've seen Spike use videotape before (Halloween) so...

[> [> Re: Full circle--thoughts about season 7. -- Clen, 08:20:34 11/21/02 Thu

I think Lessons works better with Checkpoint, both with regard to the titles, and some of the themes.

[> oh, and something else -- leslie, 11:46:11 11/20/02 Wed

Was that the biggest "closet" anyone's ever seen in a one- bedroom apartment or what? Jeeze, it looks like the size of my whole bedroom! Or is it a closet simply because it doesn't have any windows? Given Xander's stated opinion about the whole roomie plan, I was expecting something about the size of a, well, a closet--maybe big enough to lie down in and not much else.

[> [> Re: oh, and something else -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:11:12 11/20/02 Wed

The writers can justify it because, when Xander first got the apartment, there was a lot of ooing and awing over how big and nice it was. Thus, they have a good explanation for the truly enormous walk-in closet.

[> [> Re: oh, and something else -- Freki, 14:33:30 11/20/02 Wed

There was drafting table and some blueprints in there, so it looked like Xander had been using it as a den rather than a closet.

[> [> [> Yeah, blueprints -- Deb, 14:18:33 11/21/02 Thu

Of the school's basement. And, yes that closet is much bigger than I envisoned. It's about the size of my bedroom. I swear during "Him" I thought I saw a real closet. Of course I see a lot of things. Am I seeing things or does Xander exhibit tools (used tools) on his living room wall? I wonder if that couch set is Lane?

[> I had really similar thoughts ... -- vh, 11:30:01 11/21/02 Thu


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