OT - Interesting profile article in this month's
*Scientific American* -- OnM, 07:38:20 11/21/02
Check it out at:
Re: OT - Interesting profile article in this month's
*Scientific American* -- JM, 08:50:15 11/21/02
Fred's not seeming so far now. Wonder if ME knew about
this. Thanks for the link.
Re: Great Stuff! - Thanks, OnM -- Brian,
09:37:19 11/21/02 Thu
Re: OT - Interesting profile article in this month's
*Scientific American* -- aliera, 09:35:14 11/21/02
"In LCQ, reality is built of loops that interact and..."
I always knew reality was loopy.
Nice article and I never can resist anything that has
Einstein in the title!
Thanks, OnM. Eagerly awaiting Sang's input now. --
Wisewoman, 09:53:13 11/21/02 Thu
Re: OT - No.. don't ask me.. -- Sang, 13:48:50
I always avoid the topic about Quantum Gravity. Since I
don't know much about it, and I suspect there are any
physicists who really understand it.
About young (attractive) female theoretical physicists, yes
they really exist, though there aren't many of them. Usually
very casual and don't wear cosmetics, except one lady I met
who came from eastern Europe.
One thing I always wonder was, I never met overweight (male
or female) physicist in any part of this globe (especially
in theoretical physics). At least Fred fit in that profile.
Other than that, she doesn't looks nor sounds like
Though I cannot tell anything about the Greek lady in above
link, you can check out about Dr. Lisa Randall, Prof. of
Havard U (who was prof. of MIT when she was in her early
30), one of the most important theoretical physicists in new
millenium. She is also very passionate rock-climber, she
almost lost her life in mountain, just before she became a
star by suggesting a model that our world is actuall 5
If you are interested in her theory, check links below.
Re:Thought about Dr. Randall -- Sang, 16:05:41
I just thought about the charactors in Buffyverse. I
realized that the nerdy or brainy girls in both shows are
not even close to real world smart ladies.
The most close one to Dr. Randall is not Willow nor Fred,
it's Buffy! Randall, tall and slender blonde, is very strong
and athletic person. Something that strikes me about her is
that she was always alone. She prefer to hanging on the
rocks than hanging out with some guy. She prefer to command
Everything should be on her term, which makes many consider
her as a b*tch. One of my friend in Japan was trying to
organize a workshop about her work. He was really fissed off
after facing her indifference to other 'inferior male'
She is very boyish, but one time in big Superstring
conference, she appeared there in stunning black dress and
She is very hard to understand, my friend who knew her well
once told me. She never let others run her life. She is
always alone. I don't know, maybe it is something about
being on the top of her work and being a woman at the same
[> [> [>
Re:Thought about Dr. Randall -- aliera, 16:22:44
Finding a balance without losing effectiveness can be very
difficult in certain environments. I obviously can't speak
to hers but this is the case in mine. I have a different
approach but it took a lot of trial and error and I have to
work through quite a bit of criticism on being too soft
and/or being too hard. We all have to make the choices we
can live with and find our own way in the end. Yes, it's
all connected and yet, and also yes, we are in a sense alone
in this. Quite buffyesque.
humans and monsters and the BB/villain (minor spoilers
from S1-7, I suppose) -- Clen, 09:03:04 11/21/02
Is there an arc of development in the BBs/villains? S1 we
had a vampire, as was only fitting considering the showıs
title. Vampires have always been popular as a villain for
us because of their ties to being human, they also get to
pursue their desire, always remain young, and be rather
stylish. There are plenty of other classic monsters out
there too that are popular in society because of their ties
to being human (appealing because of our perceived ties of
humans becoming monsters).
So, in S1, we have the Master. He does not seem terribly
easy to connect back to the human aspect, he was always
bumpy, we never saw him before his siring, he never became
embroiled in any situations that could evoke any sympathy.
He is the monster after the human aspects have been long-ago
S2: Who was it? I donıt think Acathla, he was merely a
tool. Spike neither, for he teamed up with Buffy. Lessons
would have us believe it was Drusilla? Nah, I just think S7
BB used her form because of the effect on Spike. S7 BB was
breaking Spike down, and (with the notable exception of
Wilkins) Spike had a relationship with all of the forms
assumed. Taking Angelıs form would possibly irritate Spike,
not to mention offer up an image of a vampire that has made
a good go out of getting along with his soul. Beyond all
this, I think it more reasonable to make Angel the BB,
beyond this the three of them were villains at one point or
another. Now we still have vampires as the BB, but ones
with a real human side that we got to explore, despite their
homicidal behavior. These are humans (Spike, Drusilla,
Angel) that have gone over to the dark side, and donıt worry
about it, but the human aspect is still there for all to
S3: We have humans GOING over to the dark side, becoming
monsters: Mayor Wilkins and Faith. They still retain some
emotional attachments: Faith experiences a few touches of
inner turmoil, Wilkins genuinely laments his wife, offers
advice for Buffy and Angel, and parents Faith, as well as
continues with his mayoral duties, even when unconnected to
his grand plan.
S4: Human and monster working together, exploring the
possibilities. Adam of course, the soldiers pumped up with
drugs, Spike with the chip. Also of course there is the
theory that the BB is the lack of cohesion amongst the SG,
but in terms of villains, I think my examples are still
S5: Human and monster together, but not really working
together. Maybe at the end they did, but when they did,
they only seemed to enervate each other: Ben lost his
charisma and Glory softened up.
S6: Straight-up humans AS the monsters. Not monsters in
the sense of having powers beyond humans, like Faith, but
humans doing it all on their own. Also, Buffy worried she
might be a monster, though she ends up just the same as she
ever was (still superpowered of course, but the monster
thing was a creation of her own imagination, somewhat
similar to the villain thing as a creation of J, W and Aıs
Sois this an arc that helps us to figure out what they
might have in mind for a villain/BB this season? Will there
be a further permutation of the human/monster
Re: humans and monsters and the BB/villain (minor
spoilers from S1-7, I suppose) -- leslie,
10:50:15 11/21/02 Thu
I like your outline of the permutations. It seems to me that
if the theme is really "back to the beginning" then the BB
this season should be a vampire--or, given the escalation of
evil in the series, perhaps the whole concept of "vampire"?
Or perhaps, having done the whole vampire thing already, a
demon comparable in demondom to the Master in vampiredom?
That might actually make more sense--the sequence you've
outlined concentrates on the overlap between "demon" and
"human" as represented by the demon-possessed human that is
the vampire; having ended up with the purely human evil of
the Band of Evil Weenies, now it might be time to go to the
other extreme, a purely demonic evil (and given what we've
seen so far, I'm ready to buy that!).
Re: humans and monsters and the BB/villain (minor
spoilers from S1-7, I suppose) -- Clen, 14:54:12
or maybe, if S6 were humans with monstrous intentions, maybe
this could be a pure monster with human intentions? That
would be interesting, but doesn't really jibe all that well
with the whole tired of the balancing of the scales
Is Xander... (SPOILERS!) -- Thomas the Skeptic,
10:01:13 11/21/02 Thu
... a "manwitch"? While I was lurking about on the board
yesterday I read a post (I'm sorry that I don't remember who
wrote it) that mentioned the weird choice of furnishings in
Xander's apartment. I went back and watched "Sleeper" last
night and, sure enough, there were the votive candles on the
table outside Spike's room and the minature skull hanging on
the outside of the door. What the hell? Well, it occurs to
me that perhaps mr. Harris is dabbling in the black arts
again (you'd think he would have learned his lesson after
"Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and "Once More With
Feeling" but anyway...). For what purpose? For some time
there has been this nagging thought in the back of my mind
that his rapid rate of promotion with the construction
company has been amazingly compact, almost surreal in fact,
even when you factor in that ME plays fast and loose with
some real-life details in the Buffyverse. Could it be that
his success is being amplified through supernatural means?
Most importantly, for me, if so, does that impact on the
actions of our elusive Big Bad this year? Could it be that
he will inadvertently be drawn into the circle of influence
that has already ensnared Spike? I really don't think I
want to see the Xan-man go bad but this year it feels like
all bets are off so, who knows? Just one more (worrysome)
thing to think about...
Re: Is Xander... (SPOILERS!) -- leslie,
10:35:31 11/21/02 Thu
Or it could be that, unhappy as he was with the roommate
situation, he has been taking protective measures.
Not all magic is dark magick....... not even in Joss-
verse -- Briar Rose, 15:07:43 11/22/02 Fri
Re: Is Xander... (SPOILERS!) -- cougar, 10:57:37
In the first episode this season, when Giles says" in the
end we all are what we are, no matter how much we appear to
have changed". The next thing we see is Xander in his new
car and suit. He has been pretty slick this season. Just how
did he skyrocket to sucess at 21?
He still loves Anja but his jokes seem pretty unworried
about it. Maybe he wanted to become a "successful adult" so
that he could redeem himself for leaving Anja at the altar
by making another offer.
He didn't get any visitations either.
I always felt he kind of got short changed in the male role
model depaartment. Giles could have taken him under his wing
more but the kid kind of had to thrash around on his own
while generously helping others. Maybe he just kinda helped
I haven't read this thread yet, but I'd like to. Are
these future spoilers or past spoilers? -- Rob,
11:38:34 11/21/02 Thu
Past spoilers. -- Isabel, 11:59:46 11/21/02
I prefer more specific warnings too, but these are pretty
innocuous even if you hadn't seen 'Sleeper.'
[> [> [>
Thanks! -- Rob, 12:22:23 11/21/02 Thu
Re: I haven't read this thread yet, but I'd like to.
Are these future spoilers or past spoilers? -- Thomas
the Skeptic, 12:45:02 11/21/02 Thu
Sorry about the vague "SPOILERS!" tag; I realized after I
posted that I should have been more specific but it was too
late and I did'nt want to eat up space fixing it on a new
post... which I wound up doing anyway :). Sorry again!
[> [> [>
That's okay. :o) -- Rob, 12:57:21 11/21/02
Did anyone else notice? (spoiler 7.8) -- Shiraz,
11:56:31 11/21/02 Thu
While we're on the subject;
Did anyone else notice the white peg-board - complete with
white tools hanging from it - in the middle of Xanders'
To me, this seems a little odd. There's no reson to hang
tools in your fancy living room, and plenty of reasons not
to. So what's the deal?
From the shot it almost looked like the board was emerging
from the wall itself. Kind of like Xander's swank place is
slowly transforming into the basement he tried so hard to
escape from. *shiver*
Anybody else have any ideas about this?
Re: Did anyone else notice? (spoiler 7.8) --
Vickie, 12:22:34 11/21/02 Thu
It's been there at least since OMWF, I think. So it's
Of course, that might make it a just-mature-enough image for
ME to whack us with.
I thought it was just "found object art," which, I admit, I
don't care for. But not sinister in any way.
Of course, the slasher always surprises me when he jumps
out, so I'm not much of a judge of such things.
[> [> [>
Re: I noticed, and this too... (spoiler 7.8) --
pr10n, 15:45:04 11/21/02 Thu
Yes, the peg board thing was displayed prominently in that
shot, enough to make me think it has more than decor value.
And I got the feel of "composition" like it was Art that
reminded Xander of his life. I really liked the comment
below about being like his basement. Is it a reminder of the
past as a warning, or a trophy of what he's overcome, or a
foreshadowing of his future?
The other objet d'art I saw was the white and black ball
piece in Xander's "hallway" when Buffy and Spike were
talking. White and black alternating randomly makes grey
eventually, right? Waffling back and forth between good and
evil, or stuggling to find balance -- that works for me re:
Spike, but is it also about Xander? About Buffy?
Re: Did anyone else notice? (spoiler 7.8) Yes! --
Deb, 14:22:32 11/21/02 Thu
I noticed. The place looks drab without Anya. And why
isn't the TV on all the time? Isn't that what guys do when
they're home? Watch TV? I'm glad to see he had a coffee
I first noticed them in Intervention -- Dyna,
15:17:10 11/21/02 Thu
I think the tools on the wall are just quirky decor for a
guy who prides himself on being good with his hands. Though
now that we mention it, there's a definite resemblance
between Xander's peg-board o' tools and the peg-board o'
weapons in the old training room in the Magic Box. Maybe
sometime we'll see Xander crack that thing open and put
those tools to another use?
It's a guy thing.*L I've known guys who live alone and
see tools as legitimate decor choices -- Briar Rose,
15:13:00 11/22/02 Fri
Alternative Explanations.... -- Eye_of_lurking,
12:19:15 11/21/02 Thu
1) Xander has undergone a conversion to Catholicism (they
are votive candles after all).
2)Maybe he is once again using alternative lighting
tachniques to rustle up some tail: keep in mind that just
moments before he first snogged the lovely Anyanka, he was
hanging a disco mirror-ball in his basement.
4)Xander is just a really big fan of Scream
5)He's a guy that's spent every other waking hour of the
last 7 years of his life locked in mortal combat with the
undead; he's had love affairs with mummies; he's served as
one of the Count's bugeaters; he's been known to hang
out all night for weeks on end in the cemetary. In other
words this could be very normal, abnormal, Xander Harris MO.
Then again he could be a raving sociopath gone all power
hungry and dark-eyed veiny.
Has he redecorated since Anya left? -- Rob,
12:27:05 11/21/02 Thu
Because those items could have been leftovers from
her...just some extra stock from the Magic Box, perhaps.
This recalls the wonderful lines... -- Tchaikovsky,
14:30:52 11/21/02 Thu
In Bargaining, Part Two
(Psyche is a god. Find her at www.studiesinwords.de)
So you got a witch in the mix.
More than one.
I happen to be a very powerful
Manwitch myself. Or... male...
is it 'warlock'?
Actually, there must be some improvisation in the episode,
because Xander goes more like:
'Is it warlock?'
[Tacit embarassed approval]
Which is yet another disappointment from David Fury. I just
find his episodes so boring compared to most of the other
writers. Oh well.
This would throw the chemistry of the show off-balance
for me... -- ZachsMind, 15:01:19 11/21/02 Thu
The thing that makes Xander work in the context of the
series is the fact that he is not special in any particular
way. He's not a vamp. He's not a witch. He's not a werewolf.
He's not a superhero. He doesn't mix up a concoction and
drink it thus getting super powers. He's simply a human
ordinary male caught up in extraordinary situations.
Everyone around him is 'special' in one way or another.
There's The Slayer, The Key, The Witch, The thousand year
old Ex-Demon. And Spike's the token Gentleman Vampire with a
bad reputation but a heart of gold.
Xander's just a guy. Sometimes he dabbles in mystics or
other strangeness, but never for more than an episode and
always with unsatisfactory results. Being the one completely
ordinary guy is the one thing that ironically makes Xander
special and makes him stand out. If they were to turn Xander
into a 'manwitch' it'd just ruin the chemistry of the group.
It'd be like having too much tobasco sauce on a crunchy
I'm not saying it's implausible. It just doesn't seem to
jibe with what Whedon & his gang have been doing with Xander
since day one. If that's the direction they go, the results
would be anticlimactic, disappointing and unfair to their
viewers, to say the least.
...Although it would explain why Xander was able to stand up
to Dark Willow at the end of last season without getting all
burnt to a cinder. Hmmm...
Reply to Tchaikovsky & ZachsMind ... -- Thomas the
Skeptic, 07:09:20 11/22/02 Fri
Tchaikovsky (love that name, by the way; one of my favorite
composers!), you're right on target. That's exactly the
scene I was thinking of when I used the phrase. It always
tickled my fancy because, as soon as Xander said it, my
brain instantly flashed on him being suddenly turned into
this gigantic sandwhich with sloppy joe like stuff spilling
out of the sides. That would have startled the demon he was
confronting I'm sure! And ZachsMind, in my eagerness to use
that phrase I sort of overstated myself: I don't really
think Xander is or will become a warlock. I still think,
though, that he may have cast some kind of spell to attain
his current prosperity and that we will still see the bill
come due on it. One last thing before I abandon this topic:
I think (unspoiled speculation) that that brief scene in the
opening credits this season where we see Xander's forehead
bathed in that ghostly blue light is a short glimpse of a
yet unshown episode where he is either hypnotized by the BB
or is being initiated into its cause as the cost of that
previously mentioned spell. We'll just have to wait and
[> [> [>
Re: the blue light -- Rob, 09:00:57 11/22/02
I think the blue light reflection on Xander's face was a
clip from "Hell's Bells," when the FakeOld!Xander was about
to show him his "future," but I could be wrong.
[> [> [>
But the reason for Xander's prosperity has been
explained w/o his casting a single spell... --
ZachsMind, 09:25:45 11/22/02 Fri
In the episode "The Replacement" where Xander was split in
two, he was given a strong indication why he's been so
unsuccessful up until that point, that the fears and
weaknesses in his psyche were what was dragging him down.
Until then he'd blame everyone and everything around him for
his failures, but he saw before him in "The Replacement" how
his own weaker self was the thing holding him back. That was
back in season five I believe, and since then Xander has
improved his overall behavior, even improving his
relationship with Anya and almost marrying her. Remember
that again it was his own insecurities and fears that held
him back from going through with the wedding.
To paraphase The Bard, the fault my dear doubting Thomas
lies not in Xander's stars, but in his selves. So to
assume Xander's control over his own destiny is mystically
enchanted does a disservice to the changes and growth he has
made in the past as a character. Granted, in "Once More With
Feeling" we learned he is capable of using magic to attempt
to create a "happy ending" However, that was using magic to
control events outside his own personal sphere of influence.
He *may* have used such magicks to control his own destiny,
but it's more realistic to assume he's just pulling himself
up by his own bootstraps. The M.E. writers have given us no
indication he's used magicks specifically to improve his
status in the construction business. He's just become a more
responsible and hard-working human being. Xander just grew
That's the only magick I see working here. YMMV of
[> [> [> [>
Re: Rob & ZachsMind... -- Thomas the Skeptic,
12:02:42 11/22/02 Fri
Rob, you may be right about that clip being from "Hell's
Bells"; I'll have to dig out my copy and doublecheck. As for
ZachsMind; I won't say that I'm completely convinced that
Xander is magic-free but you have presented some persuasive
arguments, my friend, and worn down my resistance to
alternative theories considerably. Thanks to everyone who
responded to my question. I'll be posting again soon with a
new season seven speculation that contradicts all the
theories I've already put forward this year!
Doors/portals/passages--first post! -- Ysabel84,
11:01:01 11/21/02 Thu
In another thread, referring to a recurring image in AtS,
And Angel has all those window frames showing us who
feels isolated and outside of the family at any one moment
that show up everywhere. I love the consistency of it on
Angel. It is something that Buffy doesn't have, a consistent
symbol that reappears. (Well, we had the
ascension/descension bit last year -- from the Gift to Grave
-- but that seems to have gone away now. That was great when
they were using it. Spider webs this year maybe as a symbol
of connection to good or evil??? but it seems less
As I watched "Sleeper," it occurred to me that BtVS actually
does have a recurring image or metaphor, and has had
for a long time: doors.
I'm probably not the first person to come up with this.
Speaking of stairs, hasn't Buffy had those pictures of doors
or archways on her stairway at least since season 3?
Some other examples:
Buffy herself, as the Slayer--both human and super-human,
stands in and guards a passage between human and non-human
Dawn as Key both opens a portal and isa Door--"the
key is the link" ("Blood Ties"), "The Key is energy. It's a
portal. It opens the door..." ("No Place Like Home").
Buffy crashing open crypt doors (usually Spike's)--how often
have we seen that?
The closed crypt door between Buffy and Spike in "Dead
Spike behind closed doors in the basement in "Lessons."
Count the number of closed and closing doors in "Sleeper,"
then notice Giles dashing open Robson's door in the last
Reminiscent of Giles in the open door of the Magic Box at
the end of "Two to Go"?
Doors. When are they open? When are they closed? What are
they keeping in, what are they keeping out?
I'm sure you can add more examples. I'm late for a meeting,
Re: Doors/portals/passages--first post! (spoilers to
7.8) -- Slain, 12:00:43 11/21/02 Thu
For a show almost shot all on a set, BtVS definitely uses a
lot of doorways, and transitions between places. Joss Whedon
has talked about how he likes to have his sets built so they
link together, making it possible to go from one set to
another (as in 'Restless').
Certainly doors and portals are recurring images on both
shows. Dimensional portals can signify both escape to
another world, and that other world impinging on this
'Sleeper' used the idea of one world impinging on the other
in the scene with Anya and Spike. The doorway signifies a
barrier between her comfortable world in Xander's living
room, and the unknown of Spike. In 'Lessons', Buffy crossing
the door to Spike's room is an escape, in the literal way of
escaping from the zombies, and it's also the barrier Spike
uses between the real world, and his mad internal world.
Re: Doors/portals/passages--first post! (spoilers to
7.8) -- aliera, 12:23:21 11/21/02 Thu
And also remember the spate of recent posting about this on
Angel and the windows...I think that it's been on people's
minds since the early ep w/ the stairwell and the framed
doorway pics and then the MC Escher mention by Rufus and
others and the discussion of labyrinths/mazes (different
things because one of them only has one possible exit) and
the use of different areas of buildings and their spaces
(stairwells) etc...(season 5 Buffy and Spike meeting on the
porch) ...actually you are very right, Slain, this goes back
and perhaps it's just posts like Ysabel's that function as a
much needed reminder and this also reminds me of Omn's link
to the SA.
I was trying to remember the last time Buffy was in the
basement of a house (not the labyrinth of the Hellmouth)
with Spike and that would be Smashed. The last stairwell
scene I remember was Flooded. In the hands out of the dirt
reminded me of Fear, Itself. Anyone else?
Re: Doors/portals/passages... and some masonic
weirdness (spoilers 4.8) -- ponygirl, 12:21:17
Interesting post Ysabel84! And welcome. I liked your take
on the many portals. The doors and stairs seem to me to be
about transitions, the moving of one state to another which
seems to be a big part of the show.
You actually got me thinking about something that struck me
about Sleeper. The basement seemed pretty gothic for a
suburban home, and I noticed that Spike was positioned by an
arch for a lot of the shots. I did a quick Google to see if
I could find any symbolic goodies about arches and ended up
with a lot Freemason info. Apparently one of the orders of
the masons is known as the Royal Arch. These Royal Arch
guys have a particular badge that incorporates the seal of
Solomon. The picture of the seal had a really strong
resemblance to the seal uncovered by Jonathon and Andrew
(sans goat head). Not that unusual, except that the
discussion of the masonic seal also included a bit on the
symbol for fire, the exact same symbol used in AtS 4.7.
Again iffy connection. Then I read the translation of words
that appear beneath the Royal Arch symbol: "Nothing is
wanting but the Key".
Hmm. I have no knowledge of masonic symbols or meanings,
but I've definitely got my ponder hat on now. Thanks for
Re: Doors/portals/passages... and some masonic
weirdness (spoilers 4.8) -- Slain, 12:27:45 11/21/02
Maybe the Big Bad is a Mason - it wouldn't surprise me. They
have to be up to something more than playing with
[> [> [>
Re: Doors/portals/passages... and some masonic
weirdness (spoilers 4.8) -- ponygirl, 12:34:57
Could this be added onto the Suspicious Things About Xander
pile? He is a glorified bricklayer after all.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Doors/portals/passages... and some masonic
weirdness (spoilers 4.8) -- aliera, 13:18:57 11/21/02
Added to the STAX?
Ye gads that's in the Library.
Which is now the Principal's office.
Who has the Power.
It really *IS* all connected. ;-)
Re: Doors/portals/passages--first post! -- Rook,
13:09:05 11/21/02 Thu
Another door related note I don't often see mentioned, but
as an example of how Buffy's grown in power, in The Harvest,
she claims she can't break down the door to the Bronze.
However in OMWF she kicks it in with one try.
And of course, the doors play a huge role in her
relationships with Angel/Spike...see Passions, Crush or The
Apologies if this has already been discussed...
(Selfless, CWTD and Sleeper spoilers--7.5, 7.7, 7.8) --
Rob, 11:31:29 11/21/02 Thu
...but, I was wondering about the significance of the song
that Morphy!Spike sings to snap Spike into killer mode. Did
anyone come up with any theories as to why this song was
chosen as the one to hypnotically control Spike?
Another thing I found interesting, btw, is the fact that
once again we see the BBW lose control of the person he is
trying to control. Last week, it was when it went overboard
with the suicidal suggestions to Willow. It misjudged
Willow's emotions, and thought that the idea of being with
Tara would be enough to convince Willow to off herself,
never considering that Willow would realize that Tara would
never suggest such a thing. This week, we know Spike has
been feeding, and turning the girls into vamps. However,
when he bites the girl in this episode, the one who calls
him a "bad boy," and "Buffy" appears to cheer him on, he
stops drinking, and drops the body in horror. Although for a
moment, the Buffy illusion did work, and get him to vamp
out, when he looked up again at Buffy, he stopped, in
revulsion for what he had done. Later, the song gets Spike
to vamp out, and he begins to drink the blood from Buffy's
wound, but then--boom--he realizes what he's doing and is
able to break free from the suggestion. I believe what is
happening is that just as the BBW misjudged how Willow would
react to such mental manipulation, so it did for Spike. Its
weakness is that it can mimic humans, interactions, and
emotions, but does not understand them. It thinks, "Spike's
in love with Buffy. If I show a version of Buffy to him that
encourages him on in the killing, he will want to do it.
Because he will do what she wants." What the BBW does not
understand is the reason Buffy could never love Spike in the
past was because of the fact that he was soulless, and, were
he not chipped, would have the potential to maim and kill
(ever since she was brought back, he could hurt her).
Therefore, even though he was first encouraged by "Buffy,"
he then looks up at the same face that, in real life, would
be horrified and disgusted by his actions. And that's, I
believe, why he stops. He's mentally torn between his
fantasy of Buffy, the one who starts out kindly consoling
him in "Selfless" and then soon convinces him that she wants
him to kill again, and the real Buffy, who would, again, be
disgusted by this. Spike is smarter than the BBW thinks. I
don't think it's any coincidence that each time Morphy
appears as Evil!Spike, it convinces Spike to be evil, and
each time Morphy appears as Buffy, Spike soon stops his
Apoligies accepted -- Deb, 14:42:26 11/21/02
I like your thoughts on Willow "overcoming" last week, and
Spike this week. I agree with pretty much all you have to
say here. The song talk is the last thread on the board
right now. Interesting, the two closest to evil (most
recently) are the first to recognize it as manipulating
them. Did you notice in the fight in the basement that the
vamp in the red shirt keeps hitting the other vampires?? And
where were all the girl vamps? There must be more
somewhere. sorry. rambling. have test in hour.
Evil and manipulation -- Sara, 16:08:39 11/21/02
Really good points! I'm noticing a pattern - evil doesn't
really have such a great handle on human behavior and
emotions. I remember being surprised that after Angel
turned to Angelus his conversations with Buffy actually
seemed pretty tame. It was obvious he was looking to hurt
her as much as possible, and it seemed to me that given how
well he grew to know her as Angel, that he could twist the
knife far more painfully than he did. Darbs gave me the
anwer - that Angelus is not very empathetic and therefore
not really going to be as effective with emotional cruelty.
Of course any rejection was going to hurt her, but I'll tell
you, I know a bunch of people that could have turned her
into quivering bowl of jello without even breaking a sweat.
(I have a fun selection of family and friends.) Spike was
much more dangerous with words and emotions, but then he had
that "stench of humanity."
I think that the closer to true evil, the farther you get
from any real feelings of any kind, and the less effective
you are at manipulating people.
Interesting... -- Rob, 16:56:43 11/21/02 Thu
...that's the line of thinking I'm currently on. For
example, with the BBW, it knows of love as a concept, but
having never truly experienced it cannot understand it. Its
conception of love in the Willow/Tara situation, for
example, seems to be similar to James in the Angel episode
"Heartthrob"--that love must consume you completely, which
is, of course, unhealthy. The BBW thinks that by throwing
around platitudy concepts of love, it can manipulate its
victims. But it doesn't understand that someone who truly
loves another would never ask them to die to be with them.
It doesn't understand that Spike's love of Buffy would not
necessarily mean he would unquestioningly do anything she
says. Yes, it understands that at first, the idea of Buffy
encouraging him on to kill the woman would arouse him, but
it doesn't understand that the reason Spike got a soul in
the first place was to prove to Buffy that this is something
he would not do anymore, and so the image of Buffy
ultimately doesn't encourage him, but is the impetus for him
remembering all of the awful things he's done and feeling
even more beneath her than before. Interestingly, the BBW
almost does drive Spike to suicide-by-Slayer, so it did more
effectively manipulate him than Willow, but not enough to
actually kill Buffy, which is presumably the BBW's motive.
After all, it knows that Buffy lets her guard down with
Spike, and that he can therefore be used to harm her,
especially since, with the soul, it would seem like he
[> [> [>
It's still early yet -- Dariel, 17:44:09
Morphy/BBW may not understand emotions like love, but it may
be capable of learning. It didn't seem too upset over its
failures with Willow and Spike; maybe this is Morphy's
version of "research." It could be working out its strategy,
figuring out how far it can go with each person.
As for the song, I have two theories. One, it's something
Dru sang during a particularly horrible kill, the memory of
which has been haunting Spike. Or two, and this is probably
a silly one, the song is associated with some childhood
trauma of William's. A trauma that had a major impact on his
personality; perhaps some repressed memory about his
[> [> [> [>
I agree... -- Rob, 20:18:25 11/21/02 Thu
I think the BBW is definitely not something to be trifled
with. Whether it succeeded each time or not, it (a) is
connected to all of these girls being killed; (b) did
succeed in cruelly mentally torturing Spike, and in hurting
Willow deeply, and possibly in also doing so to Dawn. I
definitely agree that it's honing its skills regarding
harming the Scoobies, possibly testing the waters to see
what works, what doesn't. If I were in the Buffyverse, I'd
definitely be scared about now.
[> [> [> [>
Why this song? -- Retread, 06:43:06 11/22/02
One of the verses not quoted in the show fits Spike's
Soon you will meet with another pretty maiden
Some pretty maiden, you'll court her for a while;
Thus ever ranging, turning and changing
Always seeking for a girl that is new.
OT:The Pain of a Buffy-less Fan -- Sue, 13:36:18
Do you guys realize how much it hurts to read (or try not to
read) all the great posts about last Tuesday's episode when
it wasn't shown here in Phoenix because of a basketball
game? Now I'm trying to find out if and when it will air.
I've tried calling our UPN station-calls won't go thru.
I've looked on their website and can't find any info. Any
Re: OT:The Pain of a Buffy-less Fan -- Egak,
14:10:20 11/21/02 Thu
Buffy was pre-empted here in Philly too.
Keep calling and ask for the program director. --
Deb who has been there and back, 14:28:19 11/21/02
The wait will be well worth it, but pin her/him down. And
let her/him know that you didn't appreciate it all. Usually
stations try for a weekend showing during the afternoons or
at night. Call a radio station, pick carefully, and complain
(does the TV station have a sister radio station?). Be pro-
Re: Keep calling and ask for the program director.
-- Sue, 15:29:15 11/21/02 Thu
I'd love to keep calling, but just found out that the number
for the station (KUTP) has been disconnected. Funny, the
station is still on. Hmmmm, could they be trying to avoid
angry Buffy fans?
[> [> [>
They've got email, don't they? -- Isabel,
15:39:27 11/21/02 Thu
[> [> [> [>
Re: Well...hmmmmm -- Sue, 18:03:17 11/21/02
You'd think so, right? I've looked at the website and can't
find a thing! They do have a program guide, and maybe Buffy
is being shown at 9pm on Sat. but there are other listings
for Buffy, too. (I'm so confused -very small, pitiful, wish
I could figure this out- voice)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Well...hmmmmm, does it matter -- wiscoboy,
08:38:37 11/22/02 Fri
Here in Winston-Salem, the entire show was aired but the UPN
feed just happened to pick that time to be at its worst. The
picture would catch & go into slo-mo with an accompaning
loss of sound. This went on for the entire ep, even when
Aimee Mann was singing her tune. Really ticked me off. So
you may have missed that action.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Humm. Shifty Station. Why didn't ABC pick Buffy up
like it wanted to? -- Deb, 09:34:54 11/22/02 Fri
But then again, who knows what they would have done to it?
Is there anything good on ABC anymore?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Why didn't ABC pick Buffy up like it wanted to? -
Heck with them -- wiscoboy, 12:00:27 11/22/02 Fri
I was hoping Rupert Murdoch at FOX would pick it up...they
seem to be the only ones truly interested in BTVS. They
could then air the new eps on the free-air network and then
add them to their collection on Fx.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
A&E should pick it up -- Deb, 15:01:46 11/22/02
Since they lost "Law and Order" I don't make it there very
often. And it's "basic" cable here. Show it 4x a day
Recent Post -- meritaten, 16:03:08 11/21/02
I recently saw a post by someone else about this. Seems to
me that they had found the time it would be shown (Sat at
9????? -Not sure that that is even close, but it just
popped into my head). Check the messages from yesterday and
see if you can find it. Also try to set up an account at
GIST.COM. THe site allows you to set up a personal TV
calendar. I use it to keep track of my shows. They are
usually pretty good about having accurate show times.
I'll post again if I find the thread I referred to
Saturday at 9pm in Phoenix -- Cheryl, 13:27:19
I always check TVGuide online and do a search for Buffy to
get the dates and times when preempted.
Houston, we have lift-off! -- Deb, 15:04:17
Riley/Buffy in light of CWDP (spoilers from CWDP) --
Shambleau, 18:01:56 11/21/02 Thu
One of the unique glories of BTVS is how episodes change
their meaning or reveal unexpected facets as the story
progresses. Her early magic forays look much less benevolent
and harmless now that kitteny Willow has shown her claws,
Even eps that seemed, and maybe were, clumsily executed now
seem perfectly logical. Buffy's immediate conversion to the
wild side by Faith in Bad Girls, which I thought far too
quick back then, and even out of character, looks inevitable
now. Why, of course she'd be drawn to darkness and misusing
her power, it's Slayer nature!
Anya's glomming on to Xander and her desire to define the
relationship immediately, with her enshrined as "The
Girlfriend", and, later, as "The Wife" also seemed, if not
inexplicable, at least a little weird. I just accepted it as
a comedic convention and a result of Anya's unfamiliarity
with human emotions. After Selfless, it all beautifully fit
together and I just marveled at how ME could tie up loose
ends and deepen a character at the same time.
CWDP does the same thing for me with certain aspects of the
Buffy/Riley relationship. In Doomed, one of my least
favorite eps from S4, Buffy spends most of the ep spelling
out why the relationship can't last. Then, at the end, she
completely reverses herself, goes to Riley's room, and
they're on their way to couplehood. It was never explicitly
stated what changed her mind. Him saving her? His arguments
that they were right for each other and she should make a
leap of faith? It didn't seem enough, at least for me. I
thought it was just the writers pushing them together, as
did many others. And it may have been. But even if ME really
had plans for Riley to be Buffy's guy from then on, they set
up enough flaws in the relationship from the get-go for the
later melt-down to work. Buffy's sudden shift, for example.
It now looks like their probably doomed future was precisely
the attraction for Buffy, or at least a major factor. She
can pick 'em with deadly accuracy all right, as she says in
Also, Riley's normality, which was assumed to be a selling
point for Buffy, now ties in with her superiority complex
and her frozen-in-time idealization of her love for Angel.
Even in the episodes where their love was supposedly
blossoming, she treats him somewhat condescendingly. At the
end of NMR, after Riley has given up everything for her and
become a fugitive, she never says how much she appreciates
what he did. Her comment when they're hiding out is
something along the lines of "Quite a day, huh." She then
leaves him to go to LA when she hears Angel's in danger. In
The Yoko Factor, she leaves the bruised Riley in her room
and goes outside to talk to Angel and the chemistry between
those two is palpable. The lack of chemistry between SMG and
MB play a useful role here too in underlining the down
spiral to come, even if it wasn't intentional.
She goes back in and responds to Riley's declaration of
love in a way that seems affirming, but without ever saying
that she loves him too. In her dream in Restless, he's
Government Stooge guy first. So, beneath her, there. Then he
abandons her when she puts on the glowy Slayer clay, showing
that she doesn't think he can handle her Slayerness.
Then, in S5, there's her simultaneous over-protectiveness
and emotional withdrawal, both of which come form her
feeling of Slayer separateness and superiority and both of
which contribute to Riley's melt-down. Riley does his part
in making things worse, too, of course.
All in all, the analysis clarifies for me a lot of the
reasons that that couple were doomed from the start. Way to
Lack of chemistry? -- cougar, 19:32:15 11/21/02
When you talk of the lack of chemistry between SMG and MB,
do you mean the actors or the characters? Were there
problems behind the scenes betewen the actors?
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- Shambleau, 19:52:04
Lack of chemistry between them as their characters. I don't
know if they were great buds offscreen, but I've never heard
that there were problems between them. It's a problem of
several ME ships. I see no chemistry between Cordelia and
Angel, for example, even though the writers say they're in
love. That has something to do with CC, I think, because DB
has had more chemistry with some of the one-ep co-stars than
with her. And he had it with SMG in spades.
In the case of Riley and Buffy, I like it that SMG and MB
didn't have sparks together, because it highlights the flaws
in the relationship, although it's more than likely just an
accidental bonus. I doubt if that was ME's original
[> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- cougar, 20:45:29
I see your point. Buffy and Riley certainly had respect and
comfort and affection and a certain amount of value
congruence. Buffy had more of a mature, flexible world veiw.
Riley kept her ideas grounded and practical, but other men
in Buffy's life that she admired (Angel and Giles) had
vastley more sophisticated stores of knowedge and experience
than Riley could.
Spike and even Holden Webster she could open up to because
they were able to tell her things about her essential self
that she had trouble understanding or even seeing.
I felt that Cordy never had any chemistry with Xander
either. I always thought her purpose there was to highlight
Xanders emotionaly broken background and a self image that
let him believe he dserved to be neglected, the mistreatment
was just familiar to him. The only time I thought she had
any appeal was when he bought her the grad dress and she
showed him appreciation and some vulnerability . Before that
he was beneath her.
[> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- Tess, 23:29:51
""I see no chemistry between Cordelia and Angel, for
example, even though the writers say they're in love.""
The reason most people don't see the chemistry between Cordy
and Angel is because it hasn't been thrown in our faces the
way Buffy/Angel was. And it couldn't be.
The first season of Angel was all about Angel getting over
Buffy and realizing he had a purpose beyond her. The second
season was all about his obsession with Darla. And despite
what he refused to tell Darla about the 'L' word, can you
imagine the hold a woman would have to have on a vamp like
Angelus to keep him interested for 150 years.
It was only after Buffy died and Angel realized he survived
her death, that they started to build Angel/Cordy. Their
relationship had to be done in a slow way or we would have
been crying OOC. I'm not a big Cordy/Angel shipper but I
will admit their scenes at the Opera sizzled. Had me on the
edge of my seat saying More, More! And than they bought in
Groo, and didn't even give us a fleshy love scene there
either. Actually for all we know Cordy's lack of enthusiasm
with Conner is the way Cordy performs all the time.
ME actually haven't been nice to Cordy in the love scenes
department, and I feel like we the viewers were cheated out
of seeing her first 'real' sexual relationship. I guess it
happened sometime in the summer between Graduation and
running into Angel in LA. Or maybe it didn't, maybe it
really was with the surrogate demon baby lover guy and
that's why she's so screwed up now that she's boinking
[> [> [> [>
Cordelia's first time -- Helen, 02:01:18
Can't agree about the timing of Cordy's first time. I
remember way way back when she was still with Xander (can't
remember what ep it was but it may have been Phases) and she
says something like "My daddy thinks I'm still a ...nice
girl." I'd say first sexual experience was yonks ago,
probably with some sexually inept jock, but then I don't
understand why she and Xander never had sex.
[> [> [> [> [>
Surely there are other things 'nice girls' don't
do! -- Rahael, 02:10:11 11/22/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Or things that nice girls do do! -- Helen,
02:14:38 11/22/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: My thought on Cordy and Xander -- Brian,
05:05:42 11/22/02 Fri
I always thought that the reason Cordy and Xander never had
sex is that they really loved one another. Neither wanted to
be a one night stand.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
don't get ya ... -- Helen, 08:23:29 11/22/02
I agree that Xander and Cordy had a far more meaningful
relationship than their friends gave credit, and this can be
seen by the how terribly hurt she was at the end of Lover's
Walk by Xander's betrayal with Willow.
But why would having a meaningful relationship mean that
they wouldn't have sex? Why should it have been a one night
stand? Teenage sex isn't necessarily meaningless.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: don't get ya ... -- Brian, 08:35:04 11/22/02
My understanding of Cordelia was that she was everyone's
next one (especially if it involved a rich guy with a fast
car). When she and Xander fell in love, she found out that
he had respect for her as a person. She didn't want to do
what she had done with all those other guys, and since
Xander had so much respect for her, they never consumated
their relationship. Theirs was a romantic love, not a sexual
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
good point, but I loved BTVS S1-3 Cordy so much...
-- Helen, 08:40:21 11/22/02 Fri
that I never really thought of her as the class tramp. I
accept that sleeping with Xander would have different from
fooling around with the jocks in the back of daddy's car, I
just don't understand why it never happened. Unless that
would have led to sex overload in season 3.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Locker Door Material -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:29:45
In "Lover's Walk" (may be the wrong episode, but it was
sometime in Season 3) Xander saw that Cordelia had pictures
of him hanging on her locker door. The conversation went
Xander: I didn't realize I was locker door material.
Cordelia: Well, just barely. Besides, I look cute in those
Granted, we know Cordelia had grown to love him given what
she told Buffy in "Homecoming", but it seemed pretty clear
that neither was really sure how the other felt about them.
If Xander doubted Cordelia would have pictures of him in her
locker, it's not unreasonable to assume that they hadn't
reached the point of having sex yet.
(Also, can you imagine those two trying to sleep together?
Sure they could make out, but that action stops them from
using their mouths. The moment their lips part they insult
each other, which would probably put the kibosh on sex.)
[> [> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry - TOTAL LACK -- Angelina,
09:29:27 11/22/02 Fri
"I'm not a big Cordy/Angel shipper but I will admit their
scenes at the Opera sizzled. Had me on the edge of my seat
saying More, More"
Had me screaming "HOW LAME IS THIS" and made me a wee bit
nauseous too. Sorry but the reason CC hasnıt had any sexual
scenes is because she does not exude abounding sexuality on
screen. EVER. And, she is beginning to look a little too
"long in the tooth" for her to convincingly portray a woman
in her early twenties - let alone have sex with a CHILD, but
letıs not start on that!
[> [> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- Shambleau, 09:45:16
I agree that Cordy and Angel had heat at the opera, but that
was Joss in full command. I thought Buffy and Riley had
chemistry in Hush, too, and guess whose ep that was. It has
to be there when the other writers are in charge for me to
buy it overall.
Of course, I'm against Cordy/Angel on principal. The show
spent two years developing a brother and sister vibe that I
loved. Finally, a series that didn't have all the characters
secretly yearning for each other, that showed men and women
capable of having actual friendships! All blown to hell now,
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- yabyumpan, 10:14:33
"Finally, a series that didn't have all the characters
secretly yearning for each other, that showed men and women
capable of having actual friendships!"
For me that's sort of the point of the C/A pairing. That
they do have this very deep friendship that has now grown
into 'romantic love'. It's not about obsessive passion or
high melodrama but mutual respect and understanding. IMO and
experience, that's the basis for the best relationships.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Lack of chemistry? -- Shambleau, 10:57:32
Regardless of whether mutual understanding and respect make
for the best relationships (and I agree, they do), my
objection is more to how series tv forces all relationships
in a romantic direction.
I don't know if you've seen Firefly, but the captain, Mal,
and his young engineer, Kaylee, have a wonderful, unforced,
older brother/younger sister vibe. If they end up in a
romance in a year or two, assuming Firefly survives, I will
It's not that such a development in the confined spaces of a
ship (or a hotel) while sharing danger and adventure would
be impossible, it's that male/female non-romantic
relationships are so rare on television that I'd prefer to
see that. Not to mention the incestuous vibe, which I get
from Cordy and Angel as much as from Cordy and Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Thank you, Shambleau -- Scroll, 11:14:29
You've articulated my main point of contention regarding
Angel/Cordelia. I realise I've come down hard on A/C before
but I'm really trying to be more open minded about it as a
'ship. I've decided that I'm willing to accept A/C and to
sit back and let the writers tell the story. However, my
initial problem with this plot point was that I loved the
brother/sister vibe between Angel and Cordy. It was so fresh
and dynamic and unique. Here are two really attractive
people whom the writers *could* manipulate into a romantic
pairing, but they won't because Joss knows better than to
retread old territory... Then - whoops. Well, so much for
It's so rare for people to just be friends, I had my hopes
up that Angel, Cordy, and Wes could mirror the B/W/X best-
friends dynamic on "Buffy". Oh well, gotta live with that
loss. And at least the rift between Wes and Angel is being
played subtly, ratcheting up my interest and eagerness for
[> [> [> [>
About Cordy's first time (spoilers for Bag Eggs) --
diamond in the rough, 13:25:45 11/22/02 Fri
I found this interesting piece of dialogue from the Psyche
transcript for "Bad Eggs":
Mr. Whitmore: Of course, for teenagers such as yourselves
feelings are even more overwhelming. With all sorts of
Willow is clearly nervous, and looks back and forth between
giving her attention to the teacher.
Mr. Whitmore: ...through your bodies, compelling you to
often difficult to remember that there *are* negative
uh, having sex. Would anyone care to offer one such
Cordelia raises her hand, and Mr. Whitmore indicates to her,
Cordelia: Well, that depends. Are you talking about sex
*in* the car or
*out* of the car? (Mr. Whitmore looks confused) Because I
have a friend,
not me, that was in a Miata at, parked at the top of the
hill, and then
she kicked the gearshift, and, and...
Mr. Whitmore: (interrupts) Yeah, I, I was thinking of
little more commonplace, Ms. Chase.
[> [> [>
Perhaps it was symbiotic? -- Tchaikovsky,
02:30:27 11/22/02 Fri
Joss has admitted that sometimes what he sees on screen,
(and even the audience's reaction), informs what to do with
characters. Spike, the Season Two Little Bad, was to be
killed in 'What's My Line?'. Instead they wounded him,
because everyone loved his character's charisma.
In the same way, perhaps, the lack of chemistry between
Buffy and Riley informed the decision to have the break-up.
Or if that had already been carefully plotted back in Season
Four, then maybe the precise reasons for the break-up were
crystallised in Sarah and Marc's performances. That dramatic
scene at the end of 'The Replacement', with Xander, and then
Riley's downward spiral.
My persepctive on Cordy and Conner (spoilers for Angel
4.7). -- Miss Edith, 18:14:16 11/21/02 Thu
Over here in the UK I haven't had a chance to see season 4
of Angel yet. But I notice there have been posts wondering
what all the fuss is about and why the suggestion of incest.
I thought I would offer my thoughts based on what I perceive
the current reaction to be. The main complaints I have
picked up on are:
Conner was a child and Cordy treated him that way. Shortly
before propositioning Conner she apparently calls him baby
in a motherly way and coos to him. He lays his head on her
shoulder like a child and the actress did behave maternally
towards him. I haven't seen season 4 as I said but I did get
a motherly vibe personally in Tomorrow when Cordy holds
Conner to her chest and soothes "let it go honey".
Conner is seen as being genuinely in love with Cordy the
lady who he saw as being nice to him. He even took the step
of going to his father to ask for help for her. And he has
reacted badly to her rejecting his clumsy advances. Buffy
grew up in our society when sex is all around us in the
media. She was not especially naive with Angel. Conner grew
up in an entirely different situation and is fairly innocent
when it comes to sexual matters. He was clueless when a
hooker offered him sex as a thank you and is likely a
virgen. Therefore people are crinigng at the thought that he
is naively sleeping with Cordy thinking it means something
and what his reaction will be when he realises Cordy only
slept with him for pity. His first sexual experience was I
hear less than memorable with Cordy staring at the ceiling
and not kissing Conner. People are seeing that as hurtful of
Cordy. Conner is seen as the innocent and Cordy is being
seen as the adult leading Conner on and confusing him.
Conner does not look 18 he looks younger. Indeed he was
refered to as 16 upon first returning and his age was bumped
up to 18 just recently. Not to mention Charisma looks far
older than 22 and I believe she is 34 is real life. Well she
has claimed to be 33 for the last few years so I assume by
now she is at least 34 by now. Buffy and Angel looked right
together and their love was tastefully depicted regardless
of the age gap. Seeing Conner grinding against Cordy was too
much for some viewers.
Also some people are pointing out Cordy has faced many
apocolypses and has always chosen to stay and fight. E.g in
Graduation Day she is offering desperate suggestions like
chasing the mayor with germs and she is not the type to give
up and accept her fate. In Lover's Walk she condemns
Xander's choice to kiss another women when he felt his death
The above points pretty much sum up my feelings on
Re: My persepctive on Cordy and Conner (spoilers for
Angel 4.7). -- Tess, 22:54:42 11/21/02 Thu
""Conner does not look 18 he looks younger. Indeed he was
refered to as 16 upon first returning and his age was bumped
up to 18 just recently.""
The only one I have heard ever give an age to Conner is
Cordy. She was the one who told Angel 'she wasn't going to
tell his 16 year old son THAT' back in Benediction I think.
And than she changed it too 18 in STB and AN. When she
mentioned Conner as being 18, Angel got a real weird look on
his face. Too bad he didn't call her on her assumption right
than and there. And too bad they can't produce an age-
telling demon that can touch Conner's forehead and tell how
old he actually is.
I still think Cordy has been possessed. Even if Conner was
25 you don't tell the man you love that you love him and
will always love him, even though you can't be with him,
than turn around and sleep with his son that very night.
And that brings me to another thought I had earlier. In AN
Cordy told Conner that for the first time since she got back
she felt like she had a purpose, a reason for being back. It
was so strong it got her off her tail and out hunting the
beast. And than not 1 minute later the beast rose up right
in front of them. What if it wasn't the place Conner was
born but that she was misleading Conner into thinking it was
that place and all along the beast had been using her to
find his way to the surface.
Spike's Connected Too (Spoilers for all aired Buffy
episodes) -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:03:09 11/21/02 Thu
"It's like I'm connected to this great evil force that's
gonna suck the world into a fiery oblivion" - Holden
Along with "it's all about power" and "back to the
beginning", the phrase "it's all connected" has been
identified as one of the major themes of Buffy the Vampire
Slayer's seventh season. The first significant mention of
being connected this year came from Willow in "Lessons".
There it was presented in a benevolent light, saying that
the magic Willow had absorbed connected her to the earth,
that she was linked to everything in the world. But there
is still an element of foreboding added to all this.
Willow, while feeling the earth gets a powerful vision of
the Hellmouth being full of teeth and opening to devour the
world. So, while connectedness was useful and beneficial,
it was still presented as having a dark side, for if
everything's connected, then both good and evil must be part
of the interlocking web of the world.
Then came "Conversations with Dead People". Here, we got to
see more of the darkness in the "it's all connected" theme.
Holden Webbster is not an ancient beast like the Master. In
fact, he's only outside of his grave for a few hours. Thus,
he gives us a pretty good image of what goes on inside a
vampire's head in the early stages of their unlife. Holden
acts, most of the time, like he's a chummy, while oddly
insightful, human being. We can assume that he was like
this as a human being. But becoming a vampire has changed
him in a fundamental way: he openly admits and isn't
ashamed of the fact that he is now evil and talks about
killing Buffy and other innocent people without internal
conflict or remorse. But the reason isn't the one usually
associated with newly-risen vampires. The traditional
stance among fans has been that, when a vampire rises from
the grave, his thoughts are consumed by a lust for blood and
he acts like an animal until he gets his first meal;
signalling his first step towards evil. This clearly
doesn't apply to Holden.
While biting Buffy is on his mind, he doesn't seem to be
hungry so much as desiring the evilness of the act,
otherwise he wouldn't lollygag doing his Freud routine. In
fact, draining blood isn't the only thing he desires. In
what might appear as a throw away line, he says that he
feels motivated by an evil force to suck the world into hell
(slightly paraphrased, of course). We've seen vampires try
to end the world before (the Master, Spike, Drusilla,
Angelus, and assorted minions), but each of them seemed to
have an individual motivation: the Master had a freaky
religion that advocated bring the Ancient Demons back to
earth, Drusilla and Angelus were psychotic sadists, and
Spike wanted to please Drusilla. Holden is the first sign
we've seen that the examples listed above are not isolated,
that vampires and general are drawn to aid the evil side of
the force in its desire to destroy the world.
How does this long ramble apply to my subject line? Well,
we all knew that after gaining his soul Spike would have to
deal with the demonic urges still inside him. But Holden's
comment suggests that a vampire's evil is not totally based
on internal instinct; he refers to his draw towards evil as
an external, quasi-spiritual force. He is connected to
vampires and other evil creatures everywhere, and we can
assume Spike is connected as well. If this is true, than
the Shapeshifter's ability to control Spike makes more
sense. If the Shapeshifter can tap into the interconnecting
force of evil (and there's a chance it is actually that
force personified) it is capable of reaching directly into
Spike's demon and deciding what he will do. It isn't
exploiting Spike's natural instincts so much as it is
increasing the the pull to do evil that Spike and all other
Well, this was needlessly long. I think I may try some
haiku or tanka essays next time.
Re: Spike's Connected Too (Spoilers for all aired Buffy
episodes) -- Tess, 22:40:46 11/21/02 Thu
""The traditional stance among fans has been that, when a
vampire rises from the grave, his thoughts are consumed by a
lust for blood and he acts like an animal until he gets his
first meal; signalling his first step towards evil. This
clearly doesn't apply to Holden.""
When Angel rose he killed the groundskeeper at Darla's
guidance and than went on to kill the entire town. But it
seemed more a 'trying the fangs on for size' thing than
hunger. The other vamp I remember seeing freshly risen was
Darla, and she took a field trip to W&H before going on her
'spree' with Dru. In fact, she seemed (and its been a long
time since I watched either of those shows) almost confused
about what had happened to her, even though this was her
second time rising as a vampire. And I think Angelus had
said something about hearing the people above him while he
was still buried. That might be why it takes so long for
some vamps to decide to dig their way out of the grave. They
are trying to make sense of it all. Maybe its just a case
of its a very confusing time for a vamp and most of them
aren't as fortunate as to have a sire as considerate as
Darla was. Actually I can't remember ever seeing another
vamp wait at the graveside for her newest minion (or should
that be boy-toy in this case) to rise up.
The Philosophy of Toe Goblins - Safety Tips for Chat
-- Dedalus, 20:23:59 11/21/02 Thu
So there you are, enjoying a late night chat with some of
your most beloved Existential Scooby friends. Food and drink
are being passed about freely. The conversation is moving
along at an interesting clip. All is right with the world.
And then ... toe goblins.
For those of you who are unaware of the existence of such
creatures, it is sufficient to point out they seem to exist
solely in chat rooms on the internet. They are, as it were,
cyber creatures. And they like nothing better than to creep
around chat rooms late at night, find a nice ripe toe of an
unsuspecting chatter, and then pull for all theyıre worth.
Thatıs what they do. Thatıs how they get their kicks.
While there is precious little data on this type of
phenomenon, experts agree that toe goblins are about eight
inches high, and are greenish-brown in color. They have no
known speech patterns. They seem to communicate by virtue of
a strange behavior. They will lean down and tap against the
chat room floor with either long fingernails or toenails,
making a kind of strange rhythmic clicking noise. Only
another toe goblin can interpret it, and it is thought that
that is how they coordinate their attack patterns. They are
nocturnal, and so they only begin to show themselves very
late at night. Despite their small size, they can pull toes
like nobodyıs business, and they usually do so when it is
very dark and everyone is about half asleep. They are quite
shy, and do not respond very well to light at all.
When I posted about the philosophy of toe goblins, I lied.
They have no philosophy. They have only one desire rolling
about their dirty little goblin heads, and that is to find a
toe, grab it, and never let go. They are just nasty little
buggers and would never think about developing a philosophy.
At any rate, there are some tips that can be offered in
dealing with them, especially for you first timers taking
your maiden voyages into late night chat.
1. Wear socks at all times. Shoes are better, but socks are
more comfortable. Toe goblins tend to confuse easily anyway.
2. Never feed a toe goblin. They will take this as a sign
you are easy prey. And besides, they might confuse your
fingers with your toes, and they donıt need any more
3. Listen out for clicking noises. While it can be difficult
to tell late at night, the nefarious clicking of toe goblin
clans is distinguishable from the punching of computer keys
to an aware chatter. This can make all the difference in the
4. Do not attempt to catch a toe goblin. They are extremely
quick and agile, and will run for the nearest exit the
moment someone sees them, but they can be caught. However,
this is a bad idea. They will emit a strange and unpleasant
odor as a defense mechanism when they are grabbed by human
5. Have a flashlight with you at all times. Toe goblins hate
light, and to shine a beam right into their eyes in the
middle of a dark chat room is as good as stomping them. It
paralyzes them, and they can only escape if they are carried
off by their respective toe goblin clan. Toe goblins are
ferociously loyal to their own kind, and so one paralyzed
toe goblin can act as a lure to a whole bunch of them if
6. Chat with a buddy. Four eyes and ears are better than
two. And besides, chatting alone is no fun anyway! Believe
me I know!
See you in chat!
Hee! -- Earl
Allison, 02:10:09 11/22/02 Fri
Hilarious! Simply hilarious.
And I am NOT a Toe Goblin :) I merely play one on TV.
Take it and run.
Raises hand tentatively... -- Darby, 07:50:42
For we the uninitiated, would it be just too lame to explain
what the imagery is actually representing here? Just from
the sound and rhythm I can tell that many knowing heads are
nodding and smiling, but I rarely venture into chat and I'm
dufus enough to ask, "What's the joke?"
Buffy and Angel as a couple - Their future? (where does
Cordelia, or should I say Buffy fit in?) -- Jules,
21:44:59 11/21/02 Thu
Hi I'm new to this message board, so I'm not sure if I'm
repeating a previously discussed topic. Apologies if I am.
Anyway I don't know how anyone else feels, but despite all
the network changes and both Angel and Buffy being two
separate shows, I'm stilling hanging out for an Angel and
Buffy happy ending. Highly unlikely I know, but while I can
deal with this whole Buffy, Spike thing, knowing that the
love dynamic is one sided helps, I'm having real trouble
adjusting to Angel and Cordie being in love.
Living where I do I have only just seen the end of series
three of Angel, so I am not up on the whole Connor/Cordelia
angle that is emerging, so I won't go down that track. That
aside and all the complications that dynamic appears to be
creating, I want to focus on what has been going on between
Angel and Cordelia, from season three on. Whether these new
storylines will kill that loving feeling,I don't know, but
if it doesn't ???.
Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that all the reasons why
Angel decided to move to LA and end his relationship with
Buffy in the first place, are the exact same reasons that
would stand between Angel and Cordelia now. Don't get me
wrong she's a nice lady and all that, but come on. The
entire you have your whole life ahead of you, we can never
hang out in the light, never have sex, never have a child
together (Connor/Stephen aside I assume), I want you to have
a normal life, whatever that means, scenario remains
Angel could have stayed in Sunnyvale fighting alongside
Buffy, doing important work, just as easily as doing what he
does in LA. It seems just a tad inconsistent. The writers
seem to be ignoring these facts and so does everyone else in
the series. It's like they have had a Buffy byepass. If I
were Cordie, infact any women, would want to know, what the
deal is with him and Buffy now. So they live in separate
cities, so what, How does he feel about her? should she feel
insecure?, If Buffy returned and fought for their
relationship, would he have to think about it? Also has
Cordelia grown up so much that she can overlook the same
stuff that Buffy did? It seems to me that Angel has lost
it's way a little.
It is great that the characters are three dimensional and
have grown across the series, but I so miss the interchanges
between Cordie and the team, that played on her vanity, and
self absorbedness at times. She seems to have evolved on
every level, personality wise, as a warrior, and moved to a
higher level literally. I'm not sure how I feel about her
dramatic change in character, though even in BTVS she had
moments of depth. I just don't want her to have that depth
So now what? Seems to me that everyone is just acting as if
Buffy nolonger exists. I know they have been split up for 3
+ years? now, but give me a break, are we expected to
believe that Angel has fallen out of love with Buffy and
into love with Cordelia? Maybe he loves them both. Who would
he choose if he could pick between them? I know that people
move on with their lives, of course they do, but their
relationship was held up as the greatest love either of them
has ever known. Are we meant to believe that his love for
Cordie is a deeper more adult love? Both women, like Angel
have gone through enormous changes and made profound
sacrifices for eachother.
Before he and Cordelia started discovering eachother, he and
Buffy had a very Wuthering Heights feeling going on at
times. Anyone who knows that story, also knows obsessive
love can be a tad unhealthy. Nevertheless the whole breakup
demonstrated a very loving, though incredibly painful (and
convenient for the Angel series)sacrifice. But from what is
going on in Series four of Angel, there appears to be some
pretty ickyish relationship developments, that are not so
healthy themselves. So this love doesn't appear to be any
more noble, or healthy that what Buffy and Angel had at
The truth is, no more network cross overs, at least for now,
mean a very lonely Angel and for the romantics out there who
love David, we want to see him having a bit of chemistry
going on. I just never thought it would be with Cordelia. I
know that some people might call their relationship an
unpredictable twist, I call it very predictable and the easy
way out. Especially when you consider the whole office
romance scenario that was and is going on between Fred and
Gunn and at one point nearly Wesley. It's all too incestous.
I miss the friendships without the heavy emphasis on office
romances and the complications that brings.
In conclusion I am not ashamed to admit that the best ending
for me would include Angel and Buffy walking off into the
metaphorical sunset together. Maybe when both series say the
final harrah, it maybe a real sunset. There I have had my
rant. I would love to see what other people think. Am I the
only one who can't get over it. I would love you to e-mail
me as well if you wish to continue any discussion.
Good point. -- oboemaboe, 00:34:32 11/22/02
"The entire you have your whole life ahead of you, we can
never hang out in the light, never have sex, never have a
child together ... I want you to have a normal life."
I can't believe I forgot about that. I guess that applies to
any relationship Angel has.
One of my favorite Angel scenes is the fight in Sanctuary:
"That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't.
You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I
see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share
that with is me!"
This strikes me as the much more appropriate attitude than
to fall for Cordy just 'cause she's convenient. I miss the
old-school Angel suffering in solitude. Something noble and
epic about it, you know.
Life is about Change -- Rufus, 04:03:46 11/22/02
I miss the old-school Angel suffering in solitude.
Something noble and epic about it, you know.
The thing that interests me about Angel is that he has
slowly done a little less suffering and a little more
getting on with the business of redemption which is
interacting with others and attempting to make the world a
bit of a better place. The Angel suffering in solitude makes
me think of our fear of change because it is unfamiliar. If
Angel continued to suffer in solitude then his show would be
pointless as he learns nothing while alone.
As for the ship thing....why should we have any more control
over who Angel ends up with than Angel (writers) have. Life
happens and things happen in life that don't always go along
with what we want. If Angel ended up back with Buffy, I'd be
okay with it....same as if he ends up with Cordy. I leave
that choice up to the writers.
[> [> [>
I don't want Angel suffering in solitutde, but... -
- Scroll, 07:56:08 11/22/02 Fri
...I think it's definite ball-dropping on the part of the
writers that they don't address the fact that Angel, in his
own words, "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I
can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to,
remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the
person I share that with is me!"
I'm not saying Angel needs to be alone forever. Quite the
contrary, I think the "family" feel of Angel Investigations
is essential to his redemption. But it seems silly to think
that Angel being with Cordelia will be all fine-and-dandy
when Angel being with Buffy was not. Perhaps Angel
*thinking* everything would be fine-and-dandy helps rack up
the angst when he finds out otherwise, but it seems odd (to
me at least) that the rest of the Fang Gang, Cordy included,
don't seem to see the inherent flaw in the "Angel + (insert
name here) = Happy = Evil Angelus" formula. Instead, we have
willful blindness, even from Lorne who is usually Insight
[> [> [> [>
Re: I don't want Angel suffering in solitutde,
but... -- B, 08:43:59 11/22/02 Fri
I agree that this issue should be addressed on the show.
However, I think there's probably an answer: Cordy is now
part demon, so she can never be with a "normal" guy anyway.
Not saying I buy it, but I think that's probably how they
would justify it, if they bothered to do so.
[> [> [> [> [>
It can end anyway to want it to end, but the show will
end as the writers determine -- Deb, 09:09:47
Personally, I like (not sure after Sunday) the Cordie and
Angel thing. She's part demon and "higher thing" so I don't
think it would be quite the same. Of course, one could
agrue that Buffy is no longer all human. I like the idea of
moving on and learning to love again. That's life. That's
real. Perhaps everyone will end up moving on and learning
to love again. I must admit that my heart felt for Angel
when Cordie told him she felt him as Angelus and could'nt
get past that, which might explain on reason for being with
Connor (Yuck!). Angel has changed so much, and Cordie is
rather confused and will be pregnant??
One time apology -- a "covering" apology. I have
keyboarding dylexia and two words that I constantly mess up,
not in mind but in print, are "angle" and "angel." So is
you read "Angle" when I'm taking about "Angel" please
correct in your mind. Thank you.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I don't want Angel suffering in solitutde,
but... -- Jules,
21:26:13 11/22/02 Fri
You're right Cordelia could never be with a so called
"normal guy", but that guy doesn't have to be Angel.
Remember Buffy can never be with a "normal guy" either, how
could she?, not only is she slayer, a concept that most guys
would have major problems with, but she has died more than
than the average gal. This alone has got to play with your
When you throw in the unsocial hours she works, preference
for sex with vampires (generally very cute to give her
credit), an extremely questionable life expectancy and high
tolerance to unsightly other beings, she's not your typical
God when I read back over what I have written, I wonder how
she and Angel ever thought she had a shot at a "normal
So if Cordie can't make it with a "normal Goe", Angel and
apparently now Connor qualify as the most convenient love
Sure Angel is extremely beautiful, but the analogy kind or
reminds of one of those small back water towns (no offence
meant, to anyone identifying themselves as living in said
place), where there is a local population of 32, with only
two eligible love interests under the age of 40) Yes I know
Angel is 200+ but I hope you get my point.
I'm all for mature love, and did anyone see the article, I
think way back earlier this year on slayer news, where David
B said he thought maybe Buffy was only a crush for Angel.
Apparently the Angel character loses interest easily and
needs to move on and yada yada yada. Sounds like a nice post
analysis rationalisation for falling for Cordelia.
OK I may have to accept that there is a death noll for Buffy
and Angel, but by God I won't go down without a fight. If
Angel and Buffy end, it's apparently the writers call, but
please don't make his now "new greatest love Cordie". Too
Final point, I note that as a general rule the Angel and
Buffy verse, well maybe not so much of late the Angel verse
(see series 3 and Wesley for this point), seems to be
reasonably good on forgiveness.
Before everyone begins to pull out examples of the opposite
position, there are definitely plenty,... I'm talking about,
most people forgiving Angel, Xander and Giles aside, for
slaughtering countless victims, especially Jenny Calendar
over the last 200 years plus. Buffy being forgiven, if that
is the right word for bonking Spike, not to mention almost
killing the Scoobies, when she thought she was living in a
mental asylmn, Angel becoming Angelus in series two and
attempting to lay waste to the Angel Investigations and so
on and so forth.
My very long point here is, I believe in web etiquette this
is known as shouting, so I hope the breach is forgivable
.... IS ANGEL GOING TO BE ABLE TO FORGIVE CORDELIA FOR
HAVING SEX WITH CONNOR? OR IS IT THE OTHER WAY AROUND?
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER HE WILL NEVER GET TO DO THE TWO
BACKED BEAST WITH HER HIMSELF... Enough already, I nearly
lost my voice there.
Again if it turns out not to be her fault (controlled by
uncontrollable forces) can the act be forgiven, especially
when for example, it is not Angel's fault generally when he
becomes Angelus..... I leave you with that deep
Remember Buffy may have slept with Spike, there once upon a
time arch nehmisis, but then Angel did the deed with Dahla,
also known for her penchant for attempting to kill both of
them. I don't know if the slates wiped clean, though I
imagine his two or three times doesn't quite compare with
the 100+??? she and Spike managed. But hey whatever her
sins, she never, never, never, slept with his son. That's
got to be a serious plus in an ongoing relationship.
[> [> [>
I've been a secret A/C shipper -- Rahael,
09:07:04 11/22/02 Fri
Ever since "no assembly required".
Hope it might be more successful than my other ship, Giles
I think that one is doomed.
[> [> [> [>
Me too. -- Deb, 09:38:44 11/22/02 Fri
And I'm a Giles and Anya shipper too! I've had some
terrible thoughts pop into my mind though: Buffy and
Xander! Now that I have confessed, I still don't feel any
[> [> [> [>
AI'm a not so secret A/C shipper -- yabyumpan,
09:57:37 11/22/02 Fri
I pretty much always had problems with A/B and 'Enemies'
killed it for me. I look at that final scene and get flashes
of 'Death in Venice'. This powerful,wise, way older man
being reduced and emasculated by a 17 year old school girl
just made my skin crawl.
The quote about Angel not being able to 'move on' was over 2
years ago. A lot has happened to every one since then. To
condem Angel to a life of solitude not only is unfair to the
character personally but also takes away areas of growth for
the character. I agree that the whole curse thing needs to
be sorted and I've a feeling It will be this season. But
even if it isn't, I very much doubt the 'perfect happiness'
is an option now, even before sunday's gouging our eyes out
fest. For me, Cordy and Angel are perfect for one another
because of the closeness they have come have as friends and
the understanding they have of one another. Friendship
turning into 'romantic love' is far more realistic and
healthy than 'wuthering hights'.
[> [> [> [> [>
I agree...I love A/C; C/C not so much. ;o) -- Rob,
11:44:14 11/22/02 Fri
Re: Thanks for your comments -- Jules,
21:32:40 11/22/02 Fri
I'm glad you feel the same way, it's good to know that I'm
not alone in my frustration. I hope that the script writers
will put some real thought in where they are going with
Angel, Cordelia and Buffy.
SPOILER - Buffy and Angel as a couple - REPLY TO
JULES -- Angelina, 06:46:36 11/22/02 Fri
You are a girl after my own heart! I agree with you more
than totally! I could NEVER see Angel with Cordy. It is so
WRONG. I could accept him falling in love with a new woman,
but for me his true love will ALWAYS be Buffy. In fact,
when you say:
..."The best ending for me would include Angel and Buffy
walking off into .... maybe the real sunset..."
I almost cried, cause I wrote the same exact thing on this
board months ago. Nope, you are NOT the only one who feels
Buffy and Angel belong together - I think, and have written
as such further down the board, that a Buffy/Angel Crossover
is about to happen at the end of this season. Maybe we will
get some resolution, one way or the other, at that time.
I'm not so optimistic, I'm afraid (spoilers for Apoc,
Nowish) -- Scroll, 08:08:48 11/22/02 Fri
While I am a B/A shipper, I have no expectations of a
reunion outside of fanfic. Whether Angel will end up with
Cordelia is debatable, especially after the controversial
C/C scene at the end of "Apoc, Nowish". Personally, I don't
see much chemistry between Cordy and Angel. Some people saw
lots of chemistry between A/C in "Waiting in the Wings", but
I have to admit I was mostly cringing. It's the eyes, I
think. I heard the words and saw the body movements, but the
eyes told a different story.
On the other hand, the look in Angel's eyes when Cordy was
saying how she could feel how much Angelus enjoyed killing
and torturing was quite eloquent. David B convinced me with
his eyes in *that* scene. It's too bad he can't convince me
that Angel really loves Cordy. Though -- and I hate saying
this about any actress -- Charisma actually sells me on A/C
even less than DB does. Sorry, A/C shippers, maybe I'm just
being wilfully blind myself.
[> [> [>
JMO: B/A is doomed; C/A is a non-starter -- cjl,
10:31:40 11/22/02 Fri
B/A 'shippers, I empathize. But there's no happy ending
waiting for Buffy and Angel at the end of the series. Their
destinies have taken them to separate places, and the near-
operatic, "first love" teenage love affair of S1-3 will
remain a sweet memory.
I think it's Buffy's destiny to be alone. She's always
been on the knife's edge, on the borderland between human
and demon, and it's almost impossible for her to find a
lover who can truly understand her day-to-day existence.
Angel tore through her life like a whirlwind, but I don't
think they connected on a number of deeper levels. Riley
certainly didn't. Xander hero worships her, and turns a
blind eye to the darkness--he's not the one, either. Spike?
Maybe. But considering what we've seen in Sleeper, we've
got a long way to go for a B/S relationship that won't end
up killing them both.
C/A? I agree 100% with posters who saw nothing in "Waiting
in the Wings." I was astonished by how badly the C/A scenes
came off, how INERT. Yes, Cordy and Angel were supposed to
be awkward because of their mutual possession, but beyond
the awkwardness, we should've seen an underlying passion
bubbling to the surface. DB and CC didn't convey it. The
script didn't convey it. I thought it was a total loss--an
amazing statement for a Joss Whedon episode. I've never
been able to climb on board since, and the recent
Connor/Cordy hijinks have just given my stomach another
C/A as brother/sister? Yes. C/A as lovers? No.
Bring on electrogirl. She and Angel--ahem--crackle.
[> [> [> [>
I can get behind that, Gwen is cool -- Scroll,
10:45:57 11/22/02 Fri
Yeah, I saw more sparkage, literal and figurative, between
Angel and Gwen in that one episode than I've ever seen
between Angel and Cordelia. I realise that "sparks" alone
don't make a relationship, but you can't sell a "grand
passionate kye-rumptioning love" if there aren't any sparks.
Sorry, Cordy. Time to move over for Gwen, the Amazing
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I can get behind that, Gwen is cool -- Tess,
11:32:31 11/22/02 Fri
I don't like throwing in behind any relationship because ME
is just going to screw it up eventually. But I'll agree
Angel and Gwen had high voltage. Hmmm, Gwen can get his
heart to beat, wonder if she can get any other non
functioning parts of him to work?
[> [> [> [>
Re: JMO: B/A is doomed; C/A is a non-starter - Reply
from Jules -- Jules,
22:29:13 11/22/02 Fri
Hey I so agree, I knew that this episode was coming up and
when it happened I so cringed. I'm probably projecting here,
but it felt yuch. My first response was "how could they", I
know they were possessed, but at the same time it was
supposed to be a reflection of their growing attraction for
oneanther, especially Angel at that point.
It was like Angel was betraying Buffy on some level. I know
that they have been split up, practically speaking and both
have moved on, particularily Buffy, but I can't get over my
Despite the sexual relationships that both have
had(considerably less for Angel obviously) and half hearted
attempts at love, see Riley for this, psychologically it's
like the end of something profound for me.
It's one thing for two people to try out new relationships
and sleep with different people, but it enters a whole new
plane when people talk about love. This is where I am having
the problem big time.
To be fair I know that Angel and Buffy started off full
throttle, a lust, followed by a love fest. Their friendhip,
if they genuinely had one, now there is a debatable topic,
came second. I don't know how deeply they really got to know
eachother. For Cordie and Angel the reverse is true. Though
no sex. So who has a greater foundation for their
I'm fascinated by the metamorphosis of who Cordie was, to
who she became. Who is Angel in love with? The old slightly
vacuous Cordie?, or the new and improved version?, or a
combination of both? Afterall are't they all part of a three
dimensional person? I haven't seen so much of the old Cordie
As for passion, think uncomfortable. There was certainly
lust there, but love. I think back on the love scenes
between Angel and Buffy (never enough for me) and it's not
Anyone else think incestous, strong word I know, but they
are like family to oneanother. Five minutes ago they where
friends, colleagues and yes like I said family, now it's not
so brotherly and sisterly love.
I just had another thought, considering the whole
Connor/Cordie, father son, mother, son? dynamic and the
controversy that has created, and that is that the script
writers are certainly keeping that theme consistent. It's
good to see that they can be consistenta about
[> [> [>
Re: I'm not so optimistic, I'm afraid (spoilers for
Apoc, Nowish) -- Angelina, 12:25:25 11/22/02 Fri
Oh Scroll, so happy you said you "cringed" too. I started
to feel bad when I posted that the scene in WITW made me
slightly Nauseous. Makes me feel better to know I am not
the only one.
I will always believe in true love triumphing in the
end: B/A are destined. -- Briar Rose (who also tends to
have typing dyslexia), 14:41:18 11/22/02 Fri
Re: SPOILER - Buffy and Angel as a couple - REPLY TO
ANGELINA -- Jules,
22:02:23 11/22/02 Fri
I already tried posting this once, so forgive me if I end up
on the board again. I lost my previous response, somewhere
between review and send.
Anyway it is great to know that there are other people who
feel the same way as I do. I consider myself both a romantic
as well as someone who has their feet planted firmly on the
This means that while I do not have a lot of time for
martyred love, I do believe in consistency. It seems to me
that the script writers are couching convenience, that Angel
needs a bit of close bye sexual chemistry in the storylines
(remember no more sexy crossovers with Buffy)with Angel
moving onto a "more adult noble" and higher love with
Cordie. I think not.
What's this about crossovers????
I wish they'd get over it! (Spoilers? for everything)
BUT is it the same BB? -- luna, 11:25:44 11/22/02
I am one of those who doesn't much care for the Buffy-Angel
ship--I thnk the real chemistry for Buffy is Spike. Buffy is
supposedly changing as she grows older, and getting over a
teenaged love is one of those things that does happen, so I
hope that's the way it will go for the B/A connection. Cordy
and Angel don't work for me either--I completely agree that
the old Cordy was much more interesting. Maybe a new
character can appear for Angel.
Meanwhile, is there any connection between the BB's on the
two shows? Obviously the most recent version on AtS was not
the same one as on BtVS, but both series seem to be dealing
with a new major force...
Well if you believe ME, -- diamond in the rough,
13:34:16 11/22/02 Fri
the B/A relationship is over and is not going to be
resurrected. You can find a bunch of stories about B/A at
www.slayernews.com, or you can just follow this link:
B/A Their Past... -- MinionsOfXendor, 20:19:19
Been lurking, thought I'd put my 2 cents in. :) You guys are
I loved Buffy and Angel while it was happening. They were
great. I am really horribly tired, though, of shows that
latch onto this "one love in a lifetime" theory. I did not
marry my first love, and I am glad. Part of me will always
love him for what he once was to me, as I am sure part of
Buffy will always love Angel, but that does not mean they
need to be together now or ever again. My husband is the
right one for me. We work. The fact that he was not my first
love, and I was not his doesn't bother either of us. Puppy
love to real love to soulmates-once-in-a-lifetime-
whateverness is neat and romantic in an abstract not very
realistic way, but I would not be anywhere near as happy now
if I ascribed to it. And I guess I'm tired of televsion and
movies saying that that can't happen, that first love is
true love. It's just not true to life.
Re: B/A Their Past...REPLY FROM JULES -- Jules,
22:41:18 11/22/02 Fri
I agree with you, but my point is not so much that Angel and
Buffy should be together always (well actually it is), but
rather that the scriptwriters should be more consistent.
Also let's not pretend that Buffy no longer exists. Like I
said before it's like everyone has had a Buffy byepass. Get
real talk about her and what the so callend new
relationship, means to Cordelia and Angel and of course
I know that everything has changed with series Four, but it
still doesn't alter the basic premise that now they have
unrequited and very angst driven love. Where have we seen
Cordie is simply too high and mighty and unable to forgive
Angel his past, something by the way Buffy was always able
to do, while Angel now has the image of her and Connor
having sex seared into his brain. What's that going to do to
everyone's psyches?, who knows. A great basis for a
relationship don't think so.
In the end move on OK, but I NEED TO BE HONEST, PLEASE NOT
Noticed a couple more things (Sleeper spoilers) --
Tess, 23:42:35 11/21/02 Thu
These are little things, but after the third viewing they
kept popping out at me.
1) "It's me."
Three different people said this throughout the eposide.
Buffy to Xander. Anya to Buffy? Spike to Buffy. Three
times makes it a little to much for cpincidence IMO. Any
2)I'd be a happy camper if they had JM singing in every
episode. There is nothing that actor can't do. The
confusion and pain Spike showed in comparison to the cold
calculated evil of the BBW. He can put so much expression
into his face that at times it almost seems like its got to
be two actors. So if Buffy really ends this year, anyone
else out there think we could handle two vampire with a soul
3) It was Great hearing Giles say 'Oh dear god' again.
Re: Noticed a couple more things (Sleeper spoilers)
-- Angelina, 04:09:06 11/22/02 Fri
I was just talking about this last night! James Marsters
most def can handle his own show! In fact, if SMG leaves at
the end of the season, as I think she will, Spike can take
over as far as I am concerned! Justs need a little fine
tuning on his chip and we have Spike the Vampire Who Helps
The Scoobies Slay. Works for me!
the first thing you said (Sleeper spoilers) --
spaceclown, 07:03:43 11/22/02 Fri
Xander to Buffy: "It's me. M-E." ME? It made me think of
the ME that is referenced on this board. I don't know, but
Then we have the scarynice whitebuffy of a couple of
episodes ago telling Spike in the basement, "It's me. It's
you and it's me," a few weeks ago.
With the multiple buffys and spikes running around in
sleepers, maybe it is going to be increasingly difficult
and/or important to know who is what as morphing continues.
When can we know someone is really who they appear to be?
We can't trust them just because they tell us or know our
What BBW-Cassie said (CwDP spoilers, speculations)
-- Scroll, 08:17:29 11/22/02 Fri
Willow: "From beneath you, it devours."
Cassie: "Oh, not 'it'. Me."
So maybe this declaration of self is indicative of the BBW.
The evil isn't something outside the self, but part of each
individual. Buffy devours. Spike devours. Willow devours.
The balance between good and evil is being destroyed by the
very people who seek to maintain it.
Take it and run.
[> [> [>
I like it, I like it, I like it -- Deb, 08:57:19
I think it is a declaration of self also, or a declaration
of what the BB is. Insightful.
As for JM. I already have developed a show where Spike is
the headmaster at "The Slayer Academy"
[> [> [> [>
"It's me" -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:06:51
Those were Willow's words to Tara's grave in "Same Time,
Suppressing the dark side -- Sophist, timidly testing
the metaphorical depths, 10:30:12 11/22/02 Fri
Ok, I have a question for all the Jungians and those better
attuned to metaphor than I am (which is roughly the same
level of attunement as the average brick).
We have all commented on the various metaphorical aspects of
the vampires and demons. Vampires serve as metaphors for
arrested development, but the vamps and demons also seem to
be metaphors for the darker impulses of our subconscious.
This was particularly true in the first season, but even now
they serve that purpose at least some of the time.
The Slayer, of course, slays the vamps and demons. Is the
Slayer herself then a metaphor for suppressing the dark
side? It seems clear to me that this metaphor surely is
there. In that case, what is the lesson about our darker
impulses and what are the consequences of the Slayer's
I hope the relevance of the last part of that question to S7
[> Another approach to the metaphor... --
ZachsMind, 11:06:06 11/22/02 Fri
I often see vampires in "Buffy" as metaphorical for the many
problems and obstacles which appear in every day lives,
particularly for a young adult in today's society. Yes one
can see Jungian and even Freudian connections between the
war against evil in Buffy's world and any human being's war
with their own psyche. However, I believe (or perhaps
foolishly assume) that Whedon is going for something broader
in scope and more practical, that deals with The Human
From a Freudian standpoint, vampires & demons are like
the ID of our subconscious. Giles & the Watchers Council
represent the Superego, and Buffy & her Slayerettes are
for all intents and purpose the Ego of the psyche -- the
line of defense between the two extremes, hoping to keep the
balance. However it's plain to me that this approach to life
problems is faulty. It's a constant battle and inevitably a
losing one for the ego. It's like making a dyke out of
sponges. There's too many holes to plug.
Vampires are but a symptom of a greater problem; the
infestation of evil in human society. Since humans are
neither good nor evil but a combination of both, the
influence of demonic entities in Buffy's World compounds a
greater dilemma, that people like Warren or Ethan Rayne who
are just born bad humans are perhaps the real threat.
The evil within is more dangerous than the evil without.
Were Buffy able to close the Hellmouth once & for all,
and remove any and all demons from the face of the Earth,
there'd still be the evil within mankind to deal with. This
isn't something we can blame on the demons. Ethan Rayne
can't say the D'Hoffryns of the world made him do all those
evil things. He's just a bad boy.
Since Buffy can't kill human beings, or somehow steal the
evil out of them, the real threat to humanity's productive
future is outside her jurisdiction. She's like a doctor who
only cures the surface symptoms of a disease but is
powerless against the actual disease itself. In other words,
for all her effort, Buffy is like a handful of Tylenol
capsules up against a cancerous tumor. Maybe she can dull
the pain, but she can't stop the disease alone.
She's fighting a losing battle.
[> [> Re: Another approach to the metaphor... -
- Finn Mac Cool, 14:10:14 11/22/02 Fri
Of course, in Buffy's world, we have to assume that there
are just as many evil humans as there are in our world.
However, her world also has demons and monsters to contend
with. While human evil may be creepier, it has been made
pretty clear that the demonic variety is more dangerous. I
wouldn't call Buffy a handful of Tylenol, I'd call her a
cure for a brain tumor that doesn't really work for lung
[> Re: Suppressing the dark side -- alcibiades,
11:38:45 11/22/02 Fri
The Slayer, of course, slays the vamps and demons. Is the
Slayer herself then a metaphor for suppressing the dark
side? It seems clear to me that this metaphor surely is
It's interesting, isn't it. Using one's darkness to slay the
dark, yet all the while refusing to come to terms with one's
own darkness. That it is one's darkness itself which allows
one to be so effective.
The point has to be a kind of stalemate. Fighting the
darkside with the demonic power of the dark while standing
for the light. It really is all about balance. Because if
the dark were ever vanquished, so too would be the slayer --
it would fall into obsolescence, since it no longer had a
purpose in the world.
Or, having fought the final battle at the end of days, and
won, what would the Slayer then do with her own darkness
when she had no direction into which she could sublimate it.
What it then not turn internal and defeat her?
I keep thinking something like this might happen this year
on the show, once Buffy vanquishes IT.
If Buffy loses her own external raison d'etre, her own
empowerment, might her darkness not turn internal and
consume her? Unless she has faced it already.
Hearkening back to Haecceity's thread last week, I think
Spike just had a rude awakening that though he has buried
his darkness deep down in the underworld, it can still be
tweaked for evil. He's going to have to figure out a way,
not to suppress it entirely, but to sublimate it into his
activities to create a unified identity.
But it seems clear that Buffy has not realized the same
about herself, despite numerous hints along her journey that
this would one day be important.
Anyway, it is interesting to see how Spike and Buffy's
journey's this year are mirroring. It is all about coming to
terms with the darkside.
In that case, what is the lesson about our darker
impulses and what are the consequences of the Slayer's role?
The point seems to be keeping the knife point balance
between the dark and the light.
You know, it is really is all about Plato's metaphor of the
soul in the Phaedrus.
There is a dark horse and a white horse and the charioteer
who keeps the balance between them which allows the chariot
to go forward with passion and drive, yet directed towards
Being, instead of worldliness or self destruction.
[> [> Re: Suppressing the dark side -- luna,
12:15:13 11/22/02 Fri
Jung I think warns of the danger of suppressing the Shadow
[> [> [> Re: Suppressing the dark side --
Rufus, 04:59:40 11/23/02 Sat
Yes, what you resist persists......and with Buffy she has
been beating the shit out of her Shadow/Spike. She is drawn
and repulsed by him because she sees herself in him, and as
he is a "monster" he frightens her. It will be when she
stops hitting and running that she may take the time to
explore (not thinking sex here guys) her fears about
herself, then Spike will be less fear inducing.
[> Re: Suppressing the dark side (spoilers up to S7.8
Sleepless) -- Caroline, 12:18:43 11/22/02 Fri
Sunnydale and all the happenings there are (to me) the
external manifestation of an internal psychological process
that appears to begins with birth and end with death and
does not seem to have an endpoint before that. The mind is a
fascinating mystery - witness all the models, constructs and
theories we have built to try to explain our behaviour. Joss
Whedon has created a temporal space to explore the that
Buffy spends her time fighting her own demons made manifest
in the temporal space occupied by Sunnydale. The fact that
there is a hellmouth in Sunnydale is a honking clue that
even the space that has been constructed for the internal
battle mirrors the internal one - the good/bad dichotomies
in Sunnydale (suburban paradise and entrance to hell) and
the good/bad dichotomies in the psyche.
There are essentially three ways of dealing with the darker
impulses on one's psyche - repress, allow full expression or
contain/transmute. I would argue that Buffy and most of the
Scooby gang are familiar with the first two processes, Faith
definitely has a hold on the second method and only Tara had
fully gone through the last (although I think that Spike and
Anya are working through this now and there are some small
signs of hope for Buffy in Sleepless).
Joss Whedon is exploring the psychological dimension of
dealing with one's dark impulses through the perspective of
indentity creation and formation, with a particular
perspective on female psychology. I am extremely doubtful
that this process has an end. As maturation occurs, there
are new dimenions of the unconscious mind that bring up new
areas and potentials to explore. So while there are
polarities and oppositions within onself that can be
transmuted, there remain almost infinite possibilities for
further further repression, conflicts, denial etc that would
allow for the external manifestation of this internal
process. Additionally, this process is not linear and may
often be circular and can stagnate, as we have witnesses
over several seasons of Buffy.
Ever since we have seen all these hints dropped in previous
seasons about the source of Buffy's power, we have been
prepared for some kind of revelation or disclosure about
Buffy's source of slayer power. I am assuming that there is
some kind of darkness attached to it. The exploration that
seems important to me as a result of this is does Buffy have
the necessary psychological preparation to deal with this
knowledge? How will she react in terms of whatever illusions
and beliefs that she holds about her slayer power and the
ethical implications of her choices of action? Additionally,
how will she deal with it as a woman, a guardian for her
sister, a friend and a lover? Will she deal with all of
these things equally well or badly? What mechanisms will she
use to deal with it - repression, full expression or
I'm on tenterhooks to find out.
[> [> Excellent thoughts, Caroline! Nicely put.
-- Dyna, 15:29:10 11/22/02 Fri
[> The Strength -- Etrangere, 14:16:57 11/22/02
I'm not sure I qualify as a Jungian or anything :) but I'll
try to answer that question.
If the Slayer was a Tarot card, it would be the Strength.
The card represents a young woman dominating a lion (or
another kind of beast)
The Slayer is not about suppressing the Shadow, the dark
impulse, because, as alcibiade (or was it luna ?) said, it's
about bringing balance : Buffy knows she'll never be able to
kill every vampires, to chase every demons. All she does is
protect people from them.
And she's not about suppressing the Shadow because she's
herself surnatural, her powers are often described as being
similar to vampires', the source of the Slayer is said in
Tales of the Slayers to be demoniac. This is the Strenght,
because, to borrow Caroline's vocabulary, she transmute this
darkness into something else. The young girl dominating the
beast draws power from it for her own end.
The Slayer is both of them, she is the Lamb and the Tyger
(to refer to one of Rahael's favorite poem) the predatory
and the prey. That's what makes her strong. The moral of it
is that the Lamb/young girl is in control of the
Tyger/monster's power, she channels it instead of being prey
And we see that Buffy does that ! She redeems monsters !
[> Does ME intend for us to see the Slayer as part of
the problem or as part of the solution? -- Sophist,
16:40:23 11/22/02 Fri
Now that I've thought about this more, and had the
opportunity to read Caroline's and Ete's excellent posts,* I
want to add a more provocative twist to my original
The presence of the Slayer in Sunnydale allows the
inhabitants to conceal from each other and from themselves
the existence of demons (though the town is swarming with
them). If my suggested metaphor has any validity, then this
is akin to an individual repressing his/her dark side,
refusing to confront it. Buffy is the agent of that
I'm wondering if ME intends this to be a good thing.
Numerous posts here have argued that denial of the existence
of one's dark side is a failed strategy -- those
unacknowledged dark impulses will cause more problems in the
long run than they would if they were honestly confronted.
In this analysis, Buffy actually does a disservice to the
residents of Sunnydale.
OTOH, there is what I might call the Happy Hobbit view of
Buffy's role. In LOTR, Aragorn and others guard The Shire,
keeping away the evil which would destroy it. Clearly, it's
much more positive to see Buffy as Aragorn. This suggests
that ME is telling us that suppression of one's darker
impulses is, in fact, a good thing altogether.
I particularly liked Ete's post (surprise!) because it
offered a third path. If Buffy can convert demons into
useful members of society -- a feat she has accomplished
twice now -- then she can satisfy both possibilities. She
protected the community by facing the demons and
"converting" them to good.
I would not hesitate to suggest this third way as ME's,
except for one major problem: all the demons Buffy has
"repressed" over the last 6+ years. Are they about to return
with a vengeance, consistent with the "repression is bad"
school? Or has Buffy saved Sunnydale from even worse by her
*Don't mean to knock ZM's post by omission; it just goes in
a different direction than the other responses.
[> [> Re: Does ME intend for us to see the Slayer
as part of the problem or as part of the solution? --
Arethusa, 18:02:57 11/22/02 Fri
Sure, Buffy helps Sunnydale avoid dealing with its vampire
problems, but she also keeps most of them alive. Before
Buffy arrived, there was nothing to stop them from
overthrowing the mayor and replacing the chief of police
when they (deliberately) failed to solve Sunnydale's
mysterious deaths and disappearances. In "Graduation" we
finally saw some inhabitants of Sunnydale confront its
demons en mass-and the result was death for about 40
students and insanity for at least one other, probably more.
As long as the people of the Buffyverse refuse to face their
fears, Buffy is necessary.
People have an infinite capacity to ignore or repress what
they don't want to deal with. If the police were to refuse
to fight crime to force people to solve the roots of crime,
a lot of people would suffer and the solution would still
not be found, since the reason for crime is human nature,
which is something we'll never be able to change.
Elliot S. Maggin wrote an excellent book about Superman, in
which Lex Luthor tells Superman that if the superhuman hero
didn't exist, Lex Luthor the Supercriminal wouldn't exist,
since Luthor had to become superevil to be a suitable foil
for the Man of Steel. But that's not the case with Buffy.
She came into existance because of the vampires, not the
other way around. If it weren't for that first spiteful
demon, Buffy as we know her wouldn't exist.
[> [> Re: Solution or not? Spoilers for S3, 7 to
Sleeper. Speculation. -- Age, 12:07:33 11/23/02
Because remaining human seems to be so hard, there needs to
be a different type of superhero, one that patrols the
night, either metaphorically, at the frontier of the
subconscious as a marginalized feminine principle trying its
best to deal with the emotional results of repression; or
literally, as an actual woman sporting a superhero
exageration of the aggressive power women used to have to
repress in a male dominated society, creating thus a
deconstruction of male/female opposition. The slayer patrols
to maintain the balance between creative and destructive
forces in order that the mind/citizens aren't overwhelmed by
the latter, losing the opportunity to remain human. This is
as we know the key to Whedon's work: how to remain human
when it seems to be the hardest thing to do especially when
growing up. In this sense the slayer's role of keeping
balance is positive because it maintains the human world,
maintains the opportunity for people and future generations
to remain human.
In this sense also the slayer maintains the natural world,
keeping it from becoming wholly demonic: she is a parody of
the traditional conception of women in a male dominated
society, ie the bringers of death to men through the woman's
intimate role as bringer of new life. She stakes the undead,
mostly males, who believe they can escape the natural world,
returning them to the earth or figuratively freeing those
who have become overwhelmed by their psychological
conditions and gotten stuck in destructive patterns.
Maintaining balance then is a positive thing because it
allows human beings to exist. However, if Sunnydale's
hellmouth is a metaphor for the subconscious construct into
which the darker emotions and impulses that don't fit into
the lifestyle concept of Sunnydale citizens have been
repressed(and which, unnaturally strong through not being
managed want to burst out and take over) then the slayer
could be seen as an enabler, maintaining the status quo
while nothing is done about the strategy of repression
creating the psychological split represented by the sunny
day/night metaphor and the seething hellmouth itself. It's
not as if the hellmouth is ever going to go away: repression
as a strategy will always be used. But, it's repression used
primarily as the only strategy that is the problem.
The Slayer as enabler may have indeed been her role in the
past: the slayer has been a foot soldier in the war against
the demons, trained by a patriarchal agency, the Council of
Watchers, to serve the community. One could even go as far
as to say that the slayers of the past have been
representations not of female empowerment, but of power
being employed through them, with their lives meaning
nothing but that which is used and disposed of to make way
for another slayer. They represented the marginalized
feminine in a masculinized society whose only recourse was
to act as instruments or vessels. The Council of Watchers
would probably never have set about upsetting society
itself, but simply used the slayers to maintain a balance.
Although marginalized the slayers as female still
represented the existence of the feminine, and the
association with management of emotions, but just as the
slayers never lived for very long, so too the emotional
management was never fully brought into play, but was simply
adulterated into this maintenance of balance, ie the slayer
clearing up the end results of repression.
However, the story of the slayer really begins with Buffy. I
really do think that the story and meaning begin with her;
she is the literary product of an educated generation that
grew up in a male dominated society, but which witnessed the
societal upheaval of the women's movement. It is not just a
coincidence that this series began by presenting the male
dominated stereotype of the powerful woman as demonized in
Darla, the eve-il woman, and then presented the literal and
figurative movement of women in Joyce's coming to Sunnydale
with Buffy. I do think we have to situate this story within
the context of the changes in our society over the past
thirty years. We also have to see the story as a
presentation of one man's view of the psychology of growing
up, one which has been influenced by the society he has
grown up in. In both these cases, the story hasn't finished
yet: our society is still evolving, still becoming more open
and feminized; and Buffy hasn't grown up yet.(One could
interpret the light/dark metaphor representing a
psychological split both as a product of repression and as
an expression of an adolescent point of view.) The answer to
whether the slayer is part of the problem or part of the
solution may be found not only in the set metaphor, but in
the plot of the series as it presents the evolution of that
And Buffy has changed what a slayer is. The other slayers
were not like her. They worked alone and never acted as an
example, but simply as a soldier. Buffy on the other hand,
as a reflection of a societal change, not only was
recognized by her graduating class for her involvement and
example, but inspired her class to fight against what was
really a symbol of male dominated tyranny, the mayor as
The slayer itself may indeed be part of the problem, but
Buffy as Vampire Slayer comes from the present; her story
may be the one that makes the slayer part of the solution.
At the beginning of 'Conversations with Dead People' we were
reminded that this story is happening now with the title and
date and time on the screen. Also in 'Sleeper' we witnessed
a growing awareness of the supernatural when the singer
announces quite matter of factly that she hates playing
vampire towns(and growing consciousness tends to undermine
denial). And what is happening now is we are seeing an arc
in which the balance between good and evil has been
threatened with the hellmouth opening. It seems as if this
particular level of upheaval hasn't happened before; and I'm
thinking that it relates both to Buffy becoming more adult
and our society becoming more open. In my opinion, and this
is of course the story still evolving, either Buffy alone or
Buffy and Sunnydale society faced with this type of
apocalypse will have to take responsibility for the
hellmouth that is beneath them. This entity will force Buffy
and perhaps Sunnydale society to face that which they've
denied or ignored in order to have their belief either in
their good lifestyle or, in Buffy's case, her denial of the
dark source of her slayer power. This will be both a
representation of further personal growth into adulthood as
part of Buffy's story, internalizing the balance between
constructive and destructive impulses; and a reflection of
our more open and feminized society, as that entity which
maintains the balance between good and evil as an external
force, as the slayers do, no longer keeps doing that job; no
longer allows the luxury of the strategy of denial.
Will there be a need for a slayer after this? Yes, but she
won't be as marginalized; and she won't simply take on those
who are too far gone for anything but staking. Buffy's role
as councillor shows the evolution of the slayer role into
one that literalizes the psychological dimension of the
mythology by staking problems and repressed emotions before
they become too entrenched. She does this by releasing their
power through simple listening. If Buffy the vampire slayer
is the woman attached to a superhero exagerated aggression
and power that women have had to repress in the past in
order not to be masculine, then Buffy the councillor
highlights and validates the feminine approach. This is yet
another difference between the slayers of old who died young
and Buffy as slayer and adult.
One last thing, I tend to focus on repression and male
domination to interpret this series; and while I'm sure they
are part of the series' themes, I'm sure also that other
interpretations can be made.
[> [> [> Re: Solution or not? Spoilers for S3, 7
to Sleeper. Speculation. -- Arethusa, 15:13:15
My view of BtVS is this: it's not the "feminine" in a
masculine society being denied, it's the "masculine" in the
female being denied. (By males originally, of course, since
they never get off scot-free these days.) Women repress
their strength to fit in with what they are told by men and
women is the natural way for women to behave. The emotion
Buffy is repressing is fear that because of her "unfeminine"
strength, both of body and mind, she will lose contact with
the rest of humanity, and be unable to love or be loved.
It's not about emotional repression: it's all about power.
Who has it, who uses it, who abdicates it to retain the
staus quo. Buffy asserts her power by refusing to live by
the CoW's rules, Spike gained it by obtaining the soul that
lets him consciously control his own actions (sans IT),
Willow gained it when she learned to control her need for
control, Xander achieved it when he recognized it lay
dorment in him all along. They had to learn to let
themselves feel pain to gain their power, as the First
Slayer said, but the freeing of their emotions led to their
gaining power. I think the slayer as female represents the
latent power in women, not the existence of the feminine
within the power structure. Likewise, Sunnydale must
recognize that it has the power to rid itself of its demon
menance, if it accept the responsibility for that power.
Hope I didn't misinterpret anything; apologies in
[> [> [> [> Re: Solution or not? Spoilers for
S3, 7 to Sleeper. Speculation. -- Age, 18:35:06
I see what you are saying. In a series that focuses on a
female character the emphasis would be on the trouble she
has accepting something she's been taught she shouldn't have
and the consequences of that.
I think that there is also a culture of denial presented on
the series that's a hold over from the society we've just
emerged from in which not only were women taught not to have
power, something deemed masculine, but men were taught to
deny and devalue the feminine in themselves.
Denial/repression is ultimately disempowering because one
fails to integrate aspects that are needed; or one gets
stuck in emotional states that dictate ones actions.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Solution or not?
Spoilers for S3, 7 to Sleeper. Speculation. -- aliera,
21:40:38 11/23/02 Sat
I'd like to see Joss step beyond this, Age...that would be a
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Solution or not?
Spoilers for S3, 7 to Sleeper. Speculation. -- Arethusa,
07:59:51 11/24/02 Sun
I agree with you, despite my slightly different perspective.
It's great that BtVs showed two of its males leads, Giles
and Xander, in less traditional roles, supporting the
heroine and following her orders, another thing that made
Xander, especially, an outsider in society.
[> [> [> Great points. Thanks. -- Sophist,
20:28:50 11/23/02 Sat
[> Re: Suppressing the dark side -- frisby,
07:52:49 11/23/02 Sat
Excellent post and very intersting replies. Here's my
Jungian take (with a dash of Nietzsche). Buffy fights the
forces of darkness, mostly vampires and demons, which I read
as sex and violence to the degree they are outside human
control or enculturation, that is, to the degree they are
aspects of darkness or loosely the unconscious. But Buffy
fights or uses her power (commands and controls) and the
source of that power (5.1) is again darkness (or her own
unconscious mechanisms and motives). Sex (according to
Schopenhauer who taught Nietzsche well who passed much to
Jung) is the kernel of the will to live, the reverse side of
which is the fear of death, whose kernel is violence. When
faced with attack Buffy either evades, deflects, or counters
(as witnessed in OMWF with her workout with Giles). These
correspond in a sense to the psychic defenses of selective
perception (a skill common to the Sunnydale denizens),
sublimation, or repression. But all of this is only one
level of Buffy's overall fight, or quest for individuation
(I think Jung called it) or search of the soul for
completion (more in Nietzsche's line). According to Plato's
tripart construction of the soul the middle level faces a
dilemma between honor and victory (compare not whether win
or loose but how play vs. winning is everything) which
ultimately reduces to understanding acts according to
consequences or in themselves: this translates to whether
Buffy fights to protect humanity or for the sport of the
hunt (using Dracula's approach) or the love of the good kill
(so to speak). Buffy faces this internal fight within her
soul often and in many other ways, such as the battles with
her friends. I'm tiring (ideally I should write this
elsewhere and then just paste it in, but it's just off the
top of my head for now, maybe some other time), and want to
get to Buffy's highest fight, the fight to truly become the
slayer (what she is, what she can become, she has no idea) -
- and the language here needs to move to Nietzsche, becoming
the superman or superheroic human who defeats the master of
the world (the spirit of gravity), saves humanity from the
preaching of madness (or the teachings of justice manifested
through the spirit of revenge), and ushers in the advent of
the completion of the greatest event, the great noon of the
earth and humanity, all under a new theology (the nerve of
which is the marriage of Ariadne to Dionysos, the god of
darkness. Buffy this year must fight the big first evil as
it rises from the depths below, but to do so she must first
find the source of her own power, deep deep down in the
darkness of her own soul, because only if the roots of a
tree are firmly connected to the earth can it compete with
the others including the vines to rise to the height and
drink of the sun. Pardon my waxing poetic. Need to close. In
a word it's all about darkness, dark energy in the lexicon
of recent cosmologists, or the will to power (to speak
Nietzschean). Comments? Questions?
Tracking the Big Bad Whatever (kinda spoilery & very
specularific!) -- ZachsMind, 10:34:02 11/22/02
Okay. What do we know about this thing? We know IT can't
directly affect reality, but can influence people's minds,
particularly the weak-willed. We know IT used to bother with
the balance of good & evil, but that IT's tired of that
whole game. It's like whatever battle IT's been fighting, IT
knows IT's already lost, so IT's just going for a big
finish. IT's nihilistic. IT's heartless. IT's treating the
Scoobies much like a cat bats around a dead mouse before
From Beneath You IT Devours - what the heck is that
supposed to mean? Is this entity from the Hellmouth? Is IT
the essence of the Hellmouth? Perhaps IT's nothing to do
with the Hellmouth. IS IT The First Evil? Is IT the same
entity that tortured Angel in the third season episode
"Amends" or is IT a wholly different entity? Is IT the ghost
of something from the past? We have more questions than
answers and it doesn't appear the people behind Mutant Enemy
will clarify things any time soon. All we can do is wait,
and in the meantime, speculate.
IT has posed as all the past big bads of previous seasons.
Warren, Glory, Adam, The Mayor, Drusilla and The Master.
However, there's no indication IT's necessarily any of those
other entities. IT merely poses as the dead. IT can't seem
to pose as anything living but IT can pose as Buffy,
possibly because Buffy has died twice, and on a cellular
level came back 'wrong.'
IT has shown itself NOT to Buffy, but to Willow and Spike.
Buffy can't seem to see IT at all. So far to the best of our
knowledge Anya & Xander have also not been visited.
In relation to The Trio of last season, IT has become
Warren, and Andrew could see IT although Jonathan could not.
So perhaps there is something that Jonathan and Buffy have
in common which makes them impervious to IT's psychological
influence. Rather than directly killing Buffy or Jonathan,
or trying to get these characters to kill themselves through
psychic coercion, IT had to convince those closest to these
two to kill them. In Jonathan's case it was Andrew. In
Buffy's case most recently it was Spike. IT was successful
in getting Andrew to sacrifice Jonathan, but failed to
convince Spike to kill Buffy. So this may be an influencial
beast, but IT's not omnipotent. IT has ITs limits and love
appears to be a powerful defense against IT.
It's interesting to see all this dialogue in one place, but it
ultimately just proves we've got far too little information
so far to go on. And how is this related to the demon which
came from beneath the ground in the Angel series? Will there
be a scene in a future episode of Buffy where the Scoobies
are looking at a report from CNN on cable about how L.A.'s
been hit with raining fire? Or would the networks find that
Fun being left in the dark, eh? Your thoughts?
Re: Tracking the Big Bad Whatever (kinda spoilery &
very specularific!) -- luna, 11:49:52 11/22/02
Interesting, but I have some questions:
"It's like whatever battle IT's been fighting, IT knows IT's
already lost" How do we know that? I mean, it might well be,
but I don't see the evidence right now?
"IT has shown itself NOT to Buffy..." I thought it posed as
Holden, but I am guessing now that the general assumption is
that Holden was a real vamp, the first evidence of Spike's
"And how is this related to the demon which came from
beneath the ground in the Angel series?" I expected them to
be connected, but the Angel demon seemed cheesy compared to
the BB on Buffy.
But aside from those points, I like what you said. I would
say too that the BB seems to me to have a goal--to divide
and conquer. Thus it undercuts loyalities as well as
perceptions of reality.
one comment for now, more later if the thread stays
here! -- anom, 13:29:40 11/22/02 Fri
"In relation to The Trio of last season, IT has become
Warren, and Andrew could see IT although Jonathan could
It looked to me as though Jonathan could see It just before
Andrew stabbed him. I think It can appear to or conceal
itself from whoever It wants to.
Yes, I noticed that too upon re-viewing CwtD...(7.7
spoilers) -- Rob, 14:31:27 11/22/02 Fri
...Jonathan turned to Warren, and had a shocked look on his
face, as he was dying.
There's room for interpretation there... --
ZachsMind, 14:45:45 11/22/02 Fri
Johnathan may have responded to seeing Warren in the
proverbial flesh, or he may have seen the knife and looked
up at Andrew in shock. It's hard to say. It's difficult to
ascertain what triggers the ability to see the BBW. If it's
at the moment of dying, or death or afterlife that does it,
then Willow shouldn't be able to see BBW, and Buffy should.
Willow hasn't died so far as we know, but Buffy has twice.
If it's being tainted evil, that wouldn't explain why Buffy
can't see it but Willow can, because technically they both
have been tainted.
If there's a consistency here, I haven't found the pattern.
OR as you said the beast could just be choosing selectively
based on its own criteria.
I find it interesting that the three Scoobies it went after
simultaneously (allegedly) in CWDP were Spike, Willow (as an
emissary for Tara) and Dawn. In season five, Glory thought
SPIKE was The Key and got tricked. Then she thought TARA was
the key and Willow , and finally after much trial and error
she started hunting down Dawnie. So Glory has a bit of
unfinished business with Spike, Willow & Dawnie, doesn't
she? Interesting that This Beast is turning its attentions
to the three of them. This may mean absolutely nothing.
Again, I'm just tracking patterns amidst the chaos.
[> [> [>
Re: There's room for interpretation there... --
Freki, 15:18:02 11/22/02 Fri
I don't remember Glory ever thinking Willow was the key.
She thought it was Spike in Intervention, and Tara in TL,
then in Spiral crazy Tara inadvertently lets her know that
it's Dawn. Though there is Willow brain-sucking Glory to
give her a reason for a vendetta.
The other thing Spike, Willow and Dawn have in common,
though, is having something of the supernatural about them.
Dawn has been treated as an ordinary girl for quite a while
now, but she is still the Key. Xander and Anya are the only
completely ordinary humans. I think the BBW may be trying
to eliminate Buffy's most potentially powerful allies
Now I wonder if the BBW may have been successful with Dawn,
and if Joyce telling Dawn that Buffy would be against her
was the BBW telling a self-fulfilling truth. If you want to
go for maximum angst, turning Buffy and Dawn against each
other would certainly do it.
[> [> [> [>
I don't mean to be misunderstood... -- ZachsMind,
15:30:24 11/22/02 Fri
I didn't mean to insinuate Glory thought Willow was the key.
Glory thought TARA was the key, and turned Tara's brain into
swiss cheese in order to attempt to find out who really was
the key. Willow wasn't pleased by that so she freaked out
and attempted to beat the ever lovin' crap outta Glory. When
I composed my original post, I got distracted and neglected
to finish a sentence somewhere.
[> [> [> [> [>
Sorry if I sounded snarky, just a bit confused about
what you meant. :) -- Freki, 19:20:58 11/22/02
A Xander connection (kinda spoilery & very
specularific!) -- Alvin, 03:16:24 11/23/02 Sat
When Him was first discussed here, someone (I think
Shadowcat, but I'm not positive) pointed out that Xander is
introduced into a scene in ominous ways. When Dawn is
crying in her room, he suddenly shows up around the corner
and seems to surprise Buffy; when Dawn is upset at the
school we first see his shoes and then pan up to his face;
and when Willow is doing her gender changing spell, we first
see Xander as a hand that graps her mouth. It's odd that the
three who have conversations with the BBW (or the two plus
Buffy who had a vamp "connected to a great evil") all had
these scenes with Xander. But he doesn't have a scene like
that with Anya. Another point about Him is that while the
four women are acting strangely, so are Xander and Spike.
Spike is quiet (and Sleeper has shown us that while under
the BBW's thrall, Spike is quiet) and Xander is inciteful
At the beginning of CWDP we're given a specific time that
implies all the events are happening concurrently. Spike
was already under the thrall of the BBW because Holden had
been turned a day earlier and Spike had no knowledge of it
in Sleeper. My take on Jonathon's death is that the BBW
showed itself to him just to make his death more painful,
making him realize when it's too late that instead of doing
good, he was following the BBW's script. As I see it, we
have the following timeline:
1) Spike is in the basement being tormented (programmed?) by
2) Buffy moves Spike out of the basement, and on the trip to
Xander's, Spike has a conversation with someone no else in
the car can see.
3) Xander invites Spike in and calls him Nimrod. Note that
Xander is still willing to insult Spike and Spike is still
protesting about being with Xander.
4) Xander and Spike spend some time together as roommates
since Xander complains about the towels. Since Spike is
getting cleaned up, I guess and say that this is when he
starts going out and making other vamps.
5) Spike and Xander solve the jacket problem, but Spike is
now quiet and following Xander's lead, and Xander has
stopped insulting Spike.
6) The three women who had odd scenes with Xander in Him
have conversations at the same time Jonathon and Andrew
return to SD.
7) The events of Sleeper occur and we also have some odd
a)) He knew Holden and called him "Webs".
b)) He takes the news that Spike may be killing rather
calmly. Compare how he acted in Passions when Angel killed
Jenny to now. Willow seemed to be the lead in the "kill
Spike" posse. I would have expected Xander to be jumping up
and down yelling "I told you so".
c)) He's willing to leave Anya, a woman he still cares
about, alone with a possible crazed serial killer.
d)) He seems to have redecorated his apartment with candles
and a skull by his door.
I think the BBW was invited in by Xander along with Spike,
and Xander fell under its thrall after being in contact with
Spike. I keep getting the feeling that the writers are
wanting us to concentrate on Spike, while the real action
with the BBW is going on with Xander.
Is the Cordelia we love gone forever? -- Masq,
14:58:04 11/22/02 Fri
OK, we all know that the character of Cordelia has been
through a lot and has changed and learned and grown. We'll
never get BtVS Cordelia, back, that's a given.
And it's not really the issue for most people. Late Season
3/early Season 4 AtS Cordy is a far cry even from early
season 3 AtS Cordy. We'd settle for her, long dark hair,
sympathy and snark together, and looks good in an evening
But that's not what we're getting. So everyone complains,
they don't like where her character's going; she's flat,
uninteresting, given to impulsive actions that show bad
judgment (I won't mention what, specifically, I'm tired of
talking and reading about it). The big complaint: ME is
writing her out of character.
But I think they're doing that deliberately. I certainly
don't think they've forgotten what makes Cordelia so
appealing. I think they know. But right now the story line
demands that she be so far not herself that we squirm in our
seats. I mean, it was pretty obvious to me that Cordelia,
since she's come back from the shinyglowly land, isn't
herself, and has said as much. She's frightened, nervous, on
edge, depressed, fatalistic, confused. She hasn't done the
glowy thing once since she got back. Which isn't necessarily
a bad thing. And there's a lot about her time as the alleged
"higher being" she can't remember.
Oh, and we did see glimpses of the great old Cordy in that
heavenly place, didn't we? We all hoped she'd bring it back
with her. And when she didn't, we all felt let down.
I don't think the Cordelia we're seeing is any indication of
"where her character's going". I think it's an aberration,
one written quite consciously and deliberately by ME, and it
crawls under all our skins, but I don't think the old
Masq, ever the optimist
[> I second that optimism. -- neaux yesman.,
15:13:23 11/22/02 Fri
[> Re: Is the Cordelia we love gone forever? --
Arethusa, 15:19:52 11/22/02 Fri
I think you're right that the story line is driving Cordy's
behavior. Look at Spike's oddly quiet behavior in Him and
Conversations-he was quiet because he was being controlled
by IT. After seven years of excellent tv, we can trust ME's
character development and ability to plan far ahead.
Very few other shows have such consistancy in
characterization and honest portrayal of emotional
[> That's what I took from Spin The Bottle... --
ZachsMind, 15:20:39 11/22/02 Fri
I felt that from a writer's standpoint, Joss Whedon was
saying goodbye to the Cordy that HE created. Now, granted
he's had a hand in where Cordy's gone, but "Spin the Bottle"
to me was a sorta last fond kiss farewell to what I believe
is to him one of his most fond 'babies.' It was like
watching a father saying goodbye to the little girl he once
knew and saying hello to a blushing bride (who put him in
the hole with VISA by the way).
Spin the Bottle was his gift to those of us who remember
Cordy back when she had no idea the difference between
bicuspids & incisors and could have cared less, because
he knew he'd never be able to get innocent Cordy back like
that ever again. So. In short? Yes. She's gone forever. But
hey. There's always reruns, where it'll be good to know
Willow's seen the softer side of Sears.
[> I agree. (spin the bottle spoilers) -- Rob,
15:23:17 11/22/02 Fri
And I think that there was no clearer indication than in
Joss' deliberate use of the old Cordy in "Spin the Bottle"
that ME is well aware of the difference in her character. I
agree with your assessment that she's depressed, and I think
it's deliberate. Why? Because in most cases where something
seemed off about a Buffy or Angel storyline, it turned out
to make sense after viewed in the context of later episodes.
I don't think it's time to judge Cordy, especially of being
out of character, since her character has never had to face
a situation such as the one she's currently in before. How
are we (or she, for that matter) to know how she would
react? Would any of us react any differently? I'm not so
sure. There are times I'm sure I could be accused of
behaving out of character, but the same goes for anyone.
Also, why else would Joss have taken us back to the old
"evil high school bitch" and then introduced the new,
somber, depressed Cordy in the same episode? I think there's
definitely something afoot, and I expect that some time
soon, we'll get back to the snarky but compassionate Cordy
from AtS Season 1-early season 3.
Just a quick question, btw, I just finished "Birthday," and
I thought it was great. Cordy still there has the mix of her
snappy self, and her compassionate side. But I read some
posts that said that's around the time she starts losing her
sarcasm. Is that true? Maybe it's just the fact that I'm
watching the episodes in a compressed amount of time, but I
really feel like the progression and evolution of all the
characters is quite remarkable, and so far I haven't noticed
anything off about Cordy, although I do admit to definitely
being taken aback by current Cordy. I almost wish that old
Cordy could come in a time machine, and slap new Cordy in
I definitely think ME has a masterplan here. I just hope
that the Cordy we love returns to us soon.
[> [> Also... -- Rob, 15:35:45 11/22/02
...in the scenes of Cordy, where we saw her still in the
"heavenly" dimension, she seemed like her old self,
complaining of boredom. It's only since she's been plopped
back, memory-less, on this plane that's she's seemed off.
This might tie in very well to your theory that the PTB had
hijacked Cordy and placed her not in a real heavenly
dimension but a prison, to keep her away from Angel. It all
adds up that they whisked her off to deny Angel a possible
moment of happiness, and then returned her memoryless so
they wouldn't be together, like your theory. Working with
this theory, this is probably also why Cordy was shown and
experienced Angelus in his glory days...so that even if her
memory were somehow restored, she would still not be
romantic with Angel...and perhaps also be driven to
[> [> Re: I agree. (spin the bottle spoilers) -
- yabyumpan, 15:52:40 11/22/02 Fri
Yes, of course there's something off about Cordy and there's
suppossed to be. I agree she's depressed but I don't think
it's just that. I think there's a reason why the PTSY
haven't given her back all her memories and why the Beast
seemed to recognise her or at least to acknowledge that she
had some importance in what ever is afoot in his devious
plans. I think she's being played, not to sure by who but
I'm looking forward to finding out. There's still another 15
episodes for the story to unfold and I think it's going to
be a rollacoaster ride for everyone (esp us).
We're not going to get 'old Cordelia' back anymore than
we're going to get back 'old Willow' and I for one, am happy
about that. Heaven forbid that we should have had 6+ seasons
of bitchy, cruel, mostly clueless Cordelia. I love the
progression her character has taken and yes, what's happenig
now makes me squirm but as Masq said, I think we're supposed
Rob, in answer to your question re: Birthday. We do get a
less sarky Cordy but I think with good reason. She's given
up part of her humanity for the cause and I think she really
feels that. She doesn't know how her demoness is going to
come out or what it will mean to her in the long run and I
think that makes her all the more focused on the mission and
more serious in her outlook. I know many people don't like
that but I do think it's a realistic reaction to what
happened to her in 'Birthday'; she had to face her own death
head on and made a conscious choice to walk away from her
dream and in doing so effectivly gave up her humanity.
That's a huge deal. We saw how she changed after getting the
vision flurry in TSILA and this is the same as that and then
some. Her becoming a demon is somewhat underplayed on the
show (one of my grips about S3) but that doesn't mean it's
not vitally important to the character and her
[> [> [> I need help with some unfamiliar
acronyms -- Robert, 16:52:07 11/22/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> TSILA--To Shanshu in LA, season 1
finale -- Masq, 16:58:31 11/22/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> PTSY=Powers That Screw You --
Dead Soul, 18:48:31 11/22/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> Sorry Robert, my bad ;o) --
yabyumpan, 18:57:49 11/22/02 Fri
[> I agree,however it still doesn't change my mind
about the show. -- AurraSing, 16:16:44 11/22/02
I'm dropping it for a while and will keep in touch with
recaps once the new eps start up again.
I've found this season to be very lacklustre and while I got
plenty angry at ME during parts of season 6 BTVS,I never
stopped watching."Angel" has been getting taped and watched
around my household but with far less enthusiasm noted than
I've seen in previous seasons.
But this thing with Cordy? While I'm not a shipper,I could
at least understand B/S happening but the C/C incident is so
out of left field as to have been written by a
Martian....and coming in sweeps week as it did,it reeked
more of a circus stunt than solid writing,IMHO.
This won't be the first nor the last time I drop a show
thanks to a profound disagreement with the writers/producers
over where a character has begun heading.It's just a shame
it had to happen with AtS.
[> [> Just a suggestion... -- Rob, 19:29:34
Since there is such a huge break until the next batch of
episodes, why don't you allow that time to simmer, and then
check it out when it comes back? Ya never know. Sometimes
when you're away from something for a while, you come back
with a new perspective.
Personally, I'm loving this season. I just started watching
this year, and the first three episodes inspired me to go
back and watch all the earlier ones. Everybody's different,
[> [> [> Once burned,twice shy. --
AurraSing, 19:38:39 11/22/02 Fri
Maybe time will change my mind but based on other shows I
have dropped in the past (ER,Frasier,etc) I really won't
miss not watching AtS..the most telling fact about it is
that when I told my husband (a fellow Buffy/Angel fan) that
I was not going to bother taping it for watching any more,he
agreed with me without a second's hesitation.
I'll probably read a good book instead of getting upset or
frustrated by the path ME has chosen for AtS for the season.
I'll learn something and *not* raise my blood pressure at
the same time!
[> Very good points. -- Caroline, 19:48:57
Even thought Cordy wanted to come back down from the higher
being place she was in, we couldn't expect her to came back
exactly as before. This was another experience that has led
to further developments in her character. Some people may
not like it but it doesn't mean that it isn't a valid
development. Maybe the point right now is that she is lost
in some way, doesn't know where to turn. The most poised
people can behave very strangely under different
circumstances and I'm glad to know that Cordy can still be
human enough to get confused and make mistakes and learn
from them. Go Cordy!
[> Re: Is the Cordelia we love gone forever? --
hellraiser, 12:43:53 11/23/02 Sat
Not to be crude, but the Cordelia(and therefore Charisma) I
grew to love is gone until she loses all the extra weight
she's carrying. Anybody know if she's pregnant? If not
somebody at ME should drop the hint that she needs to start
caring a little more about her mid-section.
[> [> I don't honestly know how to respond to
that... -- Rob, 13:03:54 11/23/02 Sat
...except to say that that was possibly one of the most
offensive things I've ever read here.
[> [> If that's what you're after... -- Rook,
13:33:09 11/23/02 Sat
You should try to find some reruns of Baywatch...they'd
probably be much more suited to your tastes...not to mention
[> [> Re: Is the Cordelia we love gone forever?
REPLY TO HELLRAISER -- Jules, 15:29:49 11/23/02
To answer your question, yes the actress is pregnant, but
that aside your comments are crass. It's particularily nice,
that the other people who sent replies are I assume guys.
Apologies if that assumption is wrong.
[> [> [> Last time I checked, I'm a guy. ;o)
-- Rob, 15:47:30 11/23/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> Re: Last time I checked, I'm a
guy. ;o) - GOOD TO KNOW -- Jules, 20:00:15 11/23/02
Good to know Rob, helps form a mental picture when I respond
to your postings.
[> [> [> Re: Is the Cordelia we love gone
forever? REPLY TO HELLRAISER -- hellraiser, 06:49:02
What I find more crass is the fact that ME has Conor(16 or
18 years old..whatever suits the writers at the time) having
sex with a woman(Cordy) who obviously is almost twice his
age. Where is the outrage here when there were so many
comments on the subject when it involved Angel &
Buffy(playing a 16yr old)? I guess now we'll see the
storyline take the path(since Charisma really is pregnant)
that the original prophecy of the father killing the son is
actually Conor killing his & Cordy's son.
[> [> [> [> You've got the ages wrong. --
Finn Mac Cool, 07:38:18 11/24/02 Sun
Connor is either 16 or 18 (no one really knows since I doubt
there are calenders in Quortoth) and Cordelia is either 21
or 22. Therefore, it's possible there's only a three year
age difference between the characters (admittedly, it is
larger between actor and actress). Also, from what I've
heard, the complaints about C/C seem more about the fact
that Cordelia used to be Connor's surrogate mother than
about the age difference.
[> [> [> [> Re: Is the Cordelia we love gone
forever? REPLY TO HELLRAISER -- Jules, 11:31:35
You have every right to feel the way you do about this
particular storyline, but I believe people's feedback to
you, related to your comments about the actresses physical
appearance i.e. putting on weight, which they found
Also it is worth noting that the actress that plays Cordelia
is around 32, but the role she is playing is that of a 21
year old. This would make her around 3 years older than
Connor, if he is meant to be 18.
You may be right that if he was meant to be 16, in series 3,
though I never heard any allusion to age, unless it was in
series 4, that his new slighly more mature age is due to
convenience on the script writers behalf.
Also remember that Angel, was in reality around his mid to
late twenties and within the series 200 years plus, when he
slept with Buffy, then barely 17. My point is that within
the context of the series the former are certainly closer in
age, than Buffy and Angel were when they slept together for
the first time.
Also am I wrong when I think back to series 3 of Angel and
recollect, that the so called original prophecy, that the
father shall kill the son, was infact a lie, altered by the
Sahjhan to prevent the son (Connor) from killing him
(Sahjhan) in the future???
[> The Cordy of the past is gone as she is evolving
into the person she will become. -- Rufus, 19:02:22
Who would want to be exactly the person they were at 17-18?
Everyone changes and so is Cordy....it seems we are just
suffering from the growing pains of watching the
process....and we didn't even get to be higher
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