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Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- Claudia, 12:42:02 11/12/03 Wed

I've read many commentaries on various BtVS forums about Buffy's actions against Anya in "Selfless". On many of these forums, members seemed to have come to the conclusion that Buffy genuinely tried to kill Anya in that episode. I cannot help but wonder why anyone would believe that, considering that Buffy used a sword against Anya. Didn't the Season 6 episode, "Older and Far Away" establish that one cannot kill a vengeance demon with a sword? If so, what was Buffy's real purpose in going after Anya with a sword?

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[> A Number of Possibilities (variations on a theme) -- cjl, 13:11:36 11/12/03 Wed

BUFFY: It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.

XANDER: There has to be another way.

BUFFY: Then please find it.

[Xander takes his coat and leaves. Buffy goes to the tool chest and grabs a sword. She looks at Willow, wanting her to follow, but Willow doesn't move.]

WILLOW: I can't. I'm sorry.

[Buffy leaves the house, sword in hand.]

*******

Buffy appears to have gone all Judge Dredd on the gang, with her pronouncements of "I am the law!" and her "slash first, ask questions later" attitude. But look in between the lines of dialogue. She doesn't try to stop Xander from rushing out, obviously to warn Anya. If she truly wanted Anya dead and gone, why wouldn't she tell Xander to stay home so he wouldn't witness the gruesome proceedings? Why doesn't she snap at Willow for not participating in the demon killage? And yes, why does she take a sword, when we all know vengeance demons are a hardy breed o' evil?

There are a number of possible conclusions:

1. Buffy wanted to force Anya to make a choice, not to kill her.

Buffy might have thought that since Anya was changed from human to demon and then back again--twice--Anya might have the option to change back again, and renounce demonhood once and for all. The sword was there to show Anya the ultimate consequence of her actions as a demon in Buffy's domain. Xander was there to show Anya what she's losing by remaining a demon. If, at any point in the battle, Anya called in D'Hoffryn to beg for release, Buffy probably would have backed off. If not, Buffy probably would have gone ahead and killed her. And yes, she would have found a way to kill Anya without the sword.

[What would have happened if D'Hoffryn changed Anya back into a mortal, but DIDN'T kill Halfrek and reverse that last wish? Something to think about, isn't it?]

2. Stalling for time.

She let Xander get a huge jump. She left Willow back in the house to think things over. Buffy obviously wanted one of them to come up with a solution. Willow came up with the solution, and it worked out for almost everybody--well, except for Halfrek, of course....

3. Buffy didn't want to kill Anya, but she couldn't ignore what she thought was her duty.

A variation of #2. It's possible that Buffy was so conflicted about killing Anya, that she didn't remember swords were ineffective against vengeance demons, or even subconsciously wanted Anya to survive/escape.

4. Whoops. ME forgot about that little piece of information from OAFA.

[> [> Another thought -- Gyrus, 13:56:23 11/12/03 Wed

IIRC, "Older and Far Away" only established that you can't kill a vengeance demon by running her through with a sword. Beheading, on the other hand, might still work. (Of course, this explanation doesn't account for Buffy's apparent belief that she had killed Anya when she ran her through.)

[> [> [> What makes you say Buffy thought Anya was dead? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:39:30 11/12/03 Wed

She may have been waiting to see what Anya would do next. Also, in response to cjl, considering Anya references OAFA right after being stabbed, it's clear ME didn't forget.

[> [> Re: A Number of Possibilities (variations on a theme) -- Stephen, 17:37:54 11/14/03 Fri

I have a few points to make.

1. "To kill a demon cut off it head" -The Dark Ages. Its also, with a few exceptions, a fairly common belief about monsters. I'm willing to bet, given the physical damage done to Anya at the end of season six, that used properly a sword would kill a V Demon.

2. "It was an everyone except me sucks speech" Buffy is frankly self-rightious and egocentric a lot of the time, and this isn't high-register viewing. If we were supposed to beleif it had all been a cunning roose their would be a more explicit suggestion.

3. "I killed Angle and he was everything to me". Hardly consistant is she. Spike had clocked up a fair bodycount over his lifetime and she neglects him because he's useful to her, becuase he;s seeping with her, or becuase he comes in a new bit-free version, and Dawn had the weight of the world cemented to her feet. Buffy is willing to kill Anya becuase she knows/believes it is the right thing to do and it isn't as difficult for her as killing, say, Angel, Willow, Spike or Dawn. She is, like most people, willing to make exceptions to the law for her own sake, but Anya doesn't qualify for such a dispensation. Xander is right, the law isn't fair.

4. Now she has tried to kill all of herr friends, lucky they never tried to kill her when she became dangerous huh? And lets skim over all the knights she killed at the end of season 5 becuase their beliefs about write and wrong were different (and more rational) than hers. I guess personal morality over pragmatic morality only wins when she thinks it should?

In conclusion, yes Buffy meant to kill Anya. It probably was the right thing to do, but her reasoning and was wrong. She is a spoiled super-child with double-standards.

[> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- skeeve, 14:24:51 11/12/03 Wed

Of course, the real question is why didn't Buffy go after the amulet.

I think that Buffy was trying to kill Anya.
Buffy doesn't lie well.

[> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- Ames, 16:02:06 11/12/03 Wed

How would Buffy know to go after the amulet? She's not the Buffy from the world of The Wish, nor is there anyone from that world who could have told her about it (even Willow didn't know why Anya was so anxious to get her amulet back in Doppelgangland).

I think Buffy went into this situation in Selfless prepared to kill Anya if necessary, but also prepared for alternative outcomes.

When you're in a serious fight, you take whatever advantage presents itself. Buffy had a chance to run Anyanka through with the sword and pin her to the wall, so she took it. Anyanka appeared dead for a moment, so Buffy backed off. Probably she knew that wouldn't be enough to kill a vengeance demon, but she wasn't necessarily going all out to kill her at that point, but rather to drive home her point (so to speak).

[> [> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- skeeve, 09:05:41 11/13/03 Thu

Point made.
Giles could have figured it out, but he wasn't around.

That leaves Anya herself.
When she was remorseful enough to have D'Hoffra (sp?) kill her, one would think that she would have been remorseful enough to destroy her amulet.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- Claudia, 09:39:38 11/13/03 Thu

"I think Buffy went into this situation in Selfless prepared to kill Anya if necessary, but also prepared for alternative outcomes."

But with what? A sword? Or did Buffy have another idea on how to kill Anya? She must have known from the Halfrek incident in "Older and Far Away" that a sword would not have killed Anya. Buffy was there when that demon ran Halfrek through with a sword. And when Halfrek regained consciousness. So again, why did she go after Anya with a weapon that would not have killed the latter?

[> [> [> [> Swords. Not just for skewering anymore. (Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- Just a guy lurking, 13:26:49 11/13/03 Thu

"She must have known from the Halfrek incident in "Older and Far Away" that a sword would not have killed Anya. Buffy was there when that demon ran Halfrek through with a sword. And when Halfrek regained consciousness"

So what you're saying is:

The Demon ran Hallie through with a sword.
She didn't die.
Ergo, vengeance demons can't be killed with swords.

Faulty logic there. You see:

Cheesy Aztec-demon ran Angel through with a sword.
He didn't die (OK, he was already dead, but hey)
Ergo, vampires can't be killed with swords?

Unless vengeance demons are a Pylean subspecies, I'm pretty sure they can be killed by decapitation. And swords can do that.

Does this satisfy your question?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Swords. Not just for skewering anymore. (Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- Claudia, 14:21:58 11/13/03 Thu

"Does this satisfy your question?"

I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

From "Older and Far Away":

"HALFREK: (deep resonant voice) You rang?

(Demon emerges from the wall, skewers Halfrek)

ANYA: (punching the demon) I hope you die, you stupid jerkface!

(fighting, Buffy traps the demon in the sword, breaks the sword)

ANYA: Her pendant! Get her pendant!

HALFREK: There will be no touching of the pendant. What? (laughs) Did you think I'd be stopped by a sword in the chest? Flesh wound. Honestly, Anyanka, you used to know better."

[> [> [> [> [> [> She specifically said "sword in the chest" -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:40:43 11/13/03 Thu

Nothing about "sword through the neck".

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Swords. Not just for skewering anymore. (Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- skeeve, 08:28:32 11/14/03 Fri

So in a later episode Buffy should have had a clue about Anya's pendant.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy still didn't know exactly what the pendant was. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:53:04 11/14/03 Fri

She could obviously tell that Anya wanted to take it from Halrek and that Halrek didn't want that to happen, but she had no way of knowing the specifics. Is it really tied to her power, or is it just something else she treasures? And, if it is attached to her powers, do all vengeance demons have one (Anya hid her's very well). Lastly, this assumes that Buffy even remembers that brief exchange between Anya and Halrek nearly a year earlier.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy still didn't know exactly what the pendant was. -- skeeve, 08:01:45 11/17/03 Mon

I would expect that Buffy and Anya would have discussed the matter later.
If Buffy didn't infer that the pendant was related to power, Anya's behaviour would have seemed a non sequitor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why would they have? Buffy and Anya were never that close. -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:17:49 11/17/03 Mon

Besides, Anya's known for weird behavior. The amulet thing would be easy to forget.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, don't forget that S7 opened with Anya having reverted to vengeance. -- Sophist, 12:31:08 11/17/03 Mon

She was not likely to be sharing trade secrets with Buffy under the circumstances.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why would they have? Buffy and Anya were never that close. -- skeeve, 12:49:27 11/17/03 Mon

Anya's noted for weird comments, not stealing.
Anya is a devout capitalist.
She does not believe in stealing.

Buffy and Anya having a heart-to-heart would seem improbable.
Buffy asking Anya "What was *that* about?" seems quite probable.

angel/spike (spoiler) -- aperitis, 20:03:54 11/12/03 Wed

i am disconcerted as to why angel would want to take the plunge and become human by drinking from that cup thing...didnt angel already become human once and realized that he cant "fight the good fight" without his vampiric demon side? why would he want to give it up the fight just to become human? and spike, who i totally dont get right now, is aching to become human for some reason; enough to fight angel for the cup...why? i dont understand...i mean they already have souls so they feel remorse; whats becoming human gonna do except make them grow old and die...they already have the one thing that separates demons from humans...the soul...plus they got the super strenth, immortality, unbeatable tracking skills...why give that up? EXPLAIN PLEASE!!

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[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- Maura, 22:30:45 11/12/03 Wed

I've been wondering about this too.

Here are a few thoughts.

Angel: I suspect his main motive for wanting to become human is to exorcise the demon/Angelus, so that he can just have the soul and not the soul fighting the demon. He'd also presumably be able to be happy without dire consequences. In the back of his mind (or maybe not so far back?), there may be a hope of having a life with Buffy. (He seemed to be thinking about it in "Chosen.")

Spike: He's a bit harder for me to figure out. He too may be imagining the possibility of a human life with Buffy. He may also not want to fight the demon anymore. And I think there is an element of competition with Angel, and some of it may be "mere" rivalry, but I think it can be more complex too. Spike's just started his path to redemption (chronologically, compared to Angel), so Angel would naturally stand out as a role model/pattern for that journey. So if Angel views the "big prize" as becoming human, Spike may too because that seems to be "the way redemption works."

[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- luvthistle1, 23:15:41 11/12/03 Wed

..Well, Angel ( and Spike too , I suppose) feels if he was human, he would be able to be with Buffy. Both of them seems to have forgotten that Buffy is still a slayer, therefore she is still not totally human herself. If Buffy truly wanted to be with a human, she would have had a relationship with Xander, or made the relationship with Riley work...but she didn't.

Angel was human once, but choose to become a vampire with a soul. he claim to have did that for Buffy, although Buffy had no say so in the matter. I think a part of him, hated feeling helpless. Note: he didn't think that the fact that she lived in Sunnydale and he live in L.A, that there was a chance that he wasn't going to be there to save her, or the fact that she wasn't the slayer anymore, Faith was.

Spike , I believe have a hidden desire to be human. he never shy away from interacting with people. he eats actual food and is very social. although he would never admit it, he not very showy with his gameface as he once told Willow in season 4. I think he would miss the power behind being a vampire, but I think he would adjust better then Angel, considering he had more time getting use to being out in the world.

Dru once told Darla that Spike and Angel were fighting over the "king of cups", but it is not his birthday. which implies that prehaps neither would win.

Note: the last thing Dru Told spike was "she tasted ashes" all around him. which is exactly what happen, in "Chosen", where spike went up in smoke.

[> [> King of Cups -- Claudia, 13:44:02 11/13/03 Thu

"Dru once told Darla that Spike and Angel were fighting over the "king of cups", but it is not his birthday. which implies that prehaps neither would win."

Is this what you meant? From "Fool For Love":

DARLA: (sing-song; to Drusilla) I think our boys are going to fight.

Drusilla claps her hands giddily.

DRUSILLA: The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday.

Darla looks at Drusilla like she's crazy.

DARLA: Good point...

The odd thing is that I thought that Drusilla was talking about Spike.

[> [> [> Some clarification -- KdS, 04:03:51 11/14/03 Fri

This line of Dru's has been much discussed in the past, and the consensus was that she was referring to the tarot card the King of Cups, which is the symbol of a wise, just and merciful ruler. Hence this was considered to be a prophetic allusion to the future ("not [yet] his birthday") souling of one or both vamps.

[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- CarolB, 03:28:44 11/13/03 Thu

Drinking from the cup is *not* going to make the one who does so human . . . it's just going to make the person who drinks from it *specifically* the Vampire Champion with a Soul that is mentioned in the Shanshu Prophesy.

Angel and Spike think that whoever drinks from the cup will be the one that the prophesy is taking about (and stop the Universe from going all wonky), so *that* is why they're fighting over the cup.

[> [> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- aperitis, 09:04:46 11/13/03 Thu

where did the previous post-er get that buffy is not a slayer anymore, last time i checked shw was an uber-strong woman who could stake a vamp with her eyes closed...she is still a slayer, there were just two of them when faith came on...that doesnt negate buffys "slayerity"...ot just means that shes not the only one anymore...there are more slayers

[> [> [> I think Buffy *is* still a slayer -- Vickie, 14:24:27 11/13/03 Thu

Buffy is still "a" slayer, of course. Some folks seem to think that there is a distinction between being an activated potential (a slayer) and the one through whom the lineage runs (The Slayer).

Arguably, Faith was The Slayer from Becoming Part One (Kendra's death) to Chosen. Buffy's first death in Prophecy Girl activated Kendra. Kendra's death activated Faith.

At that point, though most of the characters don't seem to realize it, Buffy's death would no longer activate a new slayer. Only Faith's would activate one of our many potentials.

Of course, nobody knows how it works now. Does a new potential become activated at birth? Does each of the many slayers activated in Chosen carry the lineage and bequeath her slayerness to a younger potential upon her death?

We don't know. I'm looking forward to the fanfic on it.

[> Warning! Spoilers for *5.8* in this thread -- Ponygirl, 09:28:32 11/13/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Warning! Spoilers for *5.8* in this thread -- aperitis, 09:06:19 11/14/03 Fri

well...it stands to reason that willows spell made all the potentials very strong indeed...made them activated slayers...i THINK it was stated on the show that now anyone who has the possibility of becoming a slayer will be from birth...i dont think the lineage of slayers matters anymore...what willow did was unprecedented and threw the entire system out the window...buffy will never be the only true slayer anymore...there are now hundreds, thounds....maybe tens of thousands of slayers around the world..."true slayers" in their own right because they have been bestowed with their birthright not by someone else's death, but by their own birth.

buffy question (possible spoiler) -- aperitis, 20:10:16 11/12/03 Wed

im very inquisitive...sorry if im getting on anyones nerves with all the annoying posts...i was wondering, did they specify what buffy and company are doing now that sunnydales gone? are they tracking slayers somehow and training them? and if, as it has been said, someone from the scoobs show up on angel, how would they explain the rest not coming along? i mean, i thought they were now like a tight knit family after destroying your hometown...u know what i mean?...it'd be wierd if one of them showed up alone at Wolfram and Hart...its like "one of you go alone to angel and see whats happening"...it should be like "if one goes we all go" (but i can see how an army of slayer-trainees arriving at angel's doorstep would make things kooky)

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[> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- luvthistle1, 22:47:43 11/12/03 Wed

...Well, Buffy and company are in Europe. they are probably staying with Giles. I assume they are training the new slayer, considering Giles is ( spoiler) is training Andrew. there has been no mention of Xander, or Willow, but it's safe to say they are probably right there with them.

[> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- aperitis, 08:58:06 11/13/03 Thu

where did u hear that they are in europe? and dont u mean training multiple slayers, not just one

[> [> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- angel's nibblet, 13:24:10 11/13/03 Thu

Angel told Spike that Buffy and co. were in Europe at the beginning of Just Rewards, but he wasn't necessarily telling the truth.

[> [> [> [> Not quite.... (possible spoiler) -- Briar Rose, 01:39:58 11/14/03 Fri

Angel mentioned that BUFFY was in Europe. No mention of the rest of the SG.

It would stand to reason that Buffy can now enjoy life without having to worry about all the evil of the world depending on her alone to get rid of it. She now has Faith and the rest of the newly empowered girls around the globe to do so as well.

As for training "The New Slayer", well for all intents and purposes, they don't have to since there is no true "new" Slayer, since Buffy is still alive and Faith is still alive.

What we have instead is many "empowered" girls - any of which can save the world if she needed to. But the Slayer is still Buffy and if Buffy is killed it will still be Faith and down the line.

I know that's confusing, but it stands as cannon considering the way that Joss Whedon started out Fray. That the "Last Slayer" was last heard from in the 21st century. So as far as true "Slayers" go? Buffy do be the last one, or Faith.... We'll have to see if JW puts another card into play between now and the time when he brings Fray into fourth dimension production.

[> [> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- luvthistle1, 02:08:23 11/14/03 Fri

Angel mention to Spike that Buffy was in europe. andrew mention to Spike that Mr.Giles is training him. so we can assume that Giles is also training others, ( or rather multiple slayers ) as well.

[> Note that this thread also contains vague *future* AtS spoilers -- KdS, 04:05:52 11/14/03 Fri

God Bless Drew Goddard's Past Referencing Heart (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:54:27 11/12/03 Wed

We now know that Wesley still remembers his relationship with Lilah, her being killed by Cordelia, and apparently the existence of Jasmine (as "higher power" would seem to imply). People keep saying that Season 5 Wesley is a much different character from the one we've seen developed, that Angel's mindwipe really altered him. But now we see that Wesley remembers more than people suspected he did. So, how do you explain it?

Well, the comments about Wesley's character being regressed revolve around him not being "dark" and his pining over Fred. However, his attraction for Fred never went away in Season 4; it just had to be put aside since they were all too busy. As for the darkness, until now we've barely seen Wesley in Season 5, and the little we have seen doesn't rule out him still being dark; after all, at the end of Season 4, he didn't seem any darker than the other characters. That's just me talking, anyway. I'm still of the belief that the memory wipe has allowed the characters to retain their develop it and just develop a mental block when trying to think about why.

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[> Re: Angel 5.7 - Now that's more like it! -- Ames, 21:41:47 11/12/03 Wed

Great episode. My only quibble is the trite way Fred's buddy from Research (I forget his name, you know - Holden) walked in at just the right time to interrupt Wesley's moment with her.

[> Confusion regarding Fred (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Scroll, 21:59:08 11/12/03 Wed

Caveat: I freely admit that I'm a huge Wes/Lilah fan, so I'm biased.

The Wes/Fred thing bugs the hell out of me. It's not Fred herself; I'm rather enjoying her. But tonight's episode, much as I loved it, only threw me into greater confusion regarding Wesley's memories and personality. I'm willing to accept that my boy's in love/lust/unhealthy obsession over Fred, but I'm still not so sure why.

Yes, Wesley still had some measure of interest in Fred in S4. He even kissed her in "Soulless" and seemed to be flirting with her in "Calvary". BUT -- not once do we see him looking even the least bit interested after "Salvage", and after Lilah's death. In fact, we see Wesley slowly realising that Fred's stance on relationships and his are nowhere near being in the same dimension. ("It's not always about holding hands.") And as S4 wound to a close, we saw Wesley admit first to himself and Lilah's ghost, to Gunn, then Angel, that he cared for Lilah -- loved her, even. And though it was too late to save her life, he tried to at least rescue her from hell ("Home"). Their final scene together in the W&H basement was poignant and full of emotion. Maybe they never said the words, but I do think they loved each other.

It's difficult for a Wes/Lilah lover like myself to reconcile a Lilah-remembering Wesley with the Wes we've seen these past few weeks. His Fred-crush is not the behaviour of a man who only a month ago tried to save his dead lover from eternal damnation. His fumbling attempts to show Fred his interest (prior to this ep) harks back to early S3 more than the straightforward, damn it all to hell attitude of S4. Which was all fine... as long as we assumed Wesley couldn't remember Lilah.

Okay, okay. I'm not saying that a Lilah-remembering Wesley can't possibly have a crush on Fred. I'm just really, really confused as to why Wesley was even trying to pursue Fred. It all boils down to what exactly Wesley remembers of S4, and how he feels about S4. Which is kinda similar to what you're saying about a memory wipe that allows for their past character development, but fudges over the how and why of said development. Ugh, I'm still very confused.

And I'm sure this post has bored you silly : ) Sorry, I just get really passionate about Wesley and Lilah. Please, go ahead talk about other things!

[> [> Wes + Lilah 4evah! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Ponygirl, 22:14:56 11/12/03 Wed

I was wondering that myself. Do you think it's possible that Wesley without access to the darkness that he contained last year is not capable of loving Lilah to the same extent? Yet he's transferring a lot of his feelings about Lilah and his failure to save her to this obsession with Fred? It's fanwankage to be sure but I agree with you that Wes' feelings for Fred are very different than what we saw at the end of s4.

Still my L/W loving heart was glad of any mention.

[> [> [> Re: Wes + Lilah 4evah! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Tymen, 01:47:23 11/13/03 Thu

I don't believe that Wesley's feelings for Fred ever really changed. He just hadn't chosen to act upon them. He hasn't been pursuing her, as such. The last few times (in season 5) it's even come up have been under extremely stressful or under the influence of alcohol situations. Hell, even when he was with Lilah, he was having feelings for Fred. Don't you recall the Lilah dresed as Fred scene. That doesn't mean he didn't love Lilah, in just means he had feelings for both of them and is a highly conflicted/complex man.

[> [> [> [> I agree (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- CW, 06:33:34 11/13/03 Thu

It's a mistake to think that because a guy moves on he necessarily forgets everything he once felt for a lost love. With Lilah out of the picture, it's not at all strange that his thoughts would turn back to Fred.

[> [> [> [> [> Add to that the fact that... (Spoilers Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Rob, 08:14:56 11/13/03 Thu

...he was able to gain some sense of closure with Lilah in "Home," so the last image he has of her is not chopping her head off. He may not be happy that she is in Hell, but the two did reach an understanding of sorts by the end of the episode.

I also believe that Wes was sexually attracted to and had an attachment to Lilah but due to his moral compass that was at work even in his darkest moments was never truly in love with her, whereas Lilah was in love with him, despite herself, making his recovery from his loss easier than had she lost him. In the end, he had a problem with her morality, and yet she didn't have one with his (she was never upset he was "good"; she worked around it, whereas her evil was a problem for him).

Through all that, his love for Fred never went away. Even Jasmine commented on it. What is more odd to me than Wesley pursuing Fred again is the fact that Gunn has completely moved on, although that kiss between them that yielded no sparkage near the end of the season may have been closure enough for them.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Add to that the fact that... (Spoilers Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Claudia, 09:07:27 11/13/03 Thu

Yeah, but I wish he would get over Fred. We've had to deal with two years of Wes worshiping Fred from afar and it's getting boring. And I know I have said this before, but I hope and pray that Wes and Fred do not become a couple. Granted, Fred and Knox are boring enough, but I really don't see a Wes/Fred relationship being any more interesting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Merciful Zeus! (Spoilers Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Jay, 17:35:27 11/13/03 Thu

I think Lilah was in the middle of the scene that Robo-Wyndam Pryce ate lead. Before he ever pointed the gun at Fred, Wes knew he wasn't going to lose her like he lost Lilah. And even though he wasn't physically there, he felt responsible for Lilah's safety. Wes was the one who brought her back to the Hyperion and left her alone with Cordy. Wes probably feels responsible for Cordy despite the fact that it's been years since their disgusting flirtation.

On a separate note, I never saw the similarities that caused some people to compare Wesley's looks with Pierce Brosnan. But in the last two of the last three episodes, I saw instances of them. Funny that it took me four years to see that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> What is the relationship between a moral compass... -- Caroline, 09:33:03 11/13/03 Thu

and love? Can a moral compass truly prevent one falling in love or does it happen irrationally, involunatarily, in spite of oneself? Is love the blind, mischievous child shooting its arrows willy-nilly or something that can be brought to the heel of morality and subdued? Could Wes reason away or prevent his feelings for Lilah from progressing due to his moral compass? If so, why couldn't she?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is the relationship between a moral compass... ("Salvage" spoilers) -- Rob, 10:02:51 11/13/03 Thu

I think a great deal of it has to do with this bit of dialogue from "Salvage":

LILAH: For all your supposed darkness, edge of the razor mystique, (whispers in his ear) there was always a small part of you that thought you could pull me back from the brink of my evil, evil ways. Help me find redemption.

WESLEY: Redemption?

LILAH: (stands behind him with her hands on his shoulders) Angel's influence, I suppose. The whole not giving up on someone, no matter how far he-or she-has fallen. Oh, well. Too late for me. (Wes stands) Let's just get it over with. That body's not gonna dismember itself, you know.

WESLEY: (lifts the battle-axe) I'm sorry, Lilah.

I think that there was always a part of Wesley holding back from completely loving Lilah due to his moral compass, but that same moral compass always allowed him the hope that one day he could help her reform as well. This was a complicated situation though because, at the time, he was dark and not the poster boy for good himself.

The thing it boils down to, I think, is that Wesley truly believes in his moral compass, whereas Lilah didn't believe in evil, so much as use it to further her own ends--career, money, affluence, etc. For Wes, it's a true blow that the woman he might love is evil, whereas Lilah doesn't feel inadequate because her lover is good. She finds it kind of amusing, actually...something to work around. Lilah basically gave up on having a moral compass long ago, but she has no true allegiance to evil. She does whatever works for her own self-preservation, even ally herself with the good guys for a time in the fourth season. Lilah is an extreme version of Dark Wes the same way Dark Wes is a lighter version of Lilah--she is what he could become if he remains dark longer and completely loses his humanity; he is what she could become if she allowed herself a conscience. In that way, they complement and mirror each other very nicely. Had Lilah lived she might have finally been redeemed. We'll never know, but there were clear signs that she was softening due to her relationship with Wes.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think they both loved each other to a point, but Wes had a subconscious reason to not give himself completely to her, whereas Lilah did not. Had she truly believed in being evil, that would be a different story.

Sorry if the post was rambly or redundant in spots!

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is the relationship between a moral compass... ("Salvage" spoilers) -- Claudia, 11:00:59 11/13/03 Thu

"So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think they both loved each other to a point, but Wes had a subconscious reason to not give himself completely to her, whereas Lilah did not."

Actually, it sounds as if Wesley allowed his moral compass not to fully recognize his true feelings for Lilah. I don't think that morality is a good reason on whether a person loves someone or not. There's an old saying about we don't choose whom we fall in love with.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thing is, if someone's self-serving attitude and lack of respect for human life repulses you . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:15:58 11/13/03 Thu

. . . then it's hard to develop feelings of love for them. For someone with a moral compass that despises evil, someone who serves evil naturally creates unpleasant emotions, such as hate, fear, pity, or disgust, all of which work against love.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Moral Compass and Emotions -- Claudia, 11:46:41 11/13/03 Thu

". . . then it's hard to develop feelings of love for them. For someone with a moral compass that despises evil, someone who serves evil naturally creates unpleasant emotions, such as hate, fear, pity, or disgust, all of which work against love."

It's not that simple. People think that they can mix love with morality. If you find that person's lifestyle repulsive, etc., sure you can make a choice on not to be a part of it. However, to deny your feelings because of some moral compass . . . well, it's really a bad idea. That does not strike me as really being honest with yourself.

Angelus tried to be dishonest, but he failed. He could not deny that whether souled or unsouled, he loved Buffy. Only, he could not bear the fact and tried to destroy her. He only ended up destroying himself.

Buffy tried to deny her feelings for Spike, because in her eyes, he lacked a soul. He was a souless, evil thing. But in the end, she couldn't.

And now, it seems that Wes is doing the same, in regard to his feelings for Lilah. I can understand if he believed that he could not stay with her and maintain his moral stance. But to deny his true feelings for her? If he still has memories of his affair with Lilah, in the end, he is only fooling himself on how he really felt about her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Moral Compass and Emotions -- CW, 12:35:10 11/13/03 Thu

It's not that simple. People think that they can mix love with morality. If you find that person's lifestyle repulsive, etc., sure you can make a choice on not to be a part of it. However, to deny your feelings because of some moral compass . . . well, it's really a bad idea. That does not strike me as really being honest with yourself.

I think the opposite. If you just let your emotions rule whatever you do, you're flirting with disaster. Teenagers usually behave that way, but they rarely have a sense of the future. If you can see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly wrong for you because of their life style, getting into it further is little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings. Sooner or later you will lose.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Moral Compass and Emotions -- Claudia, 13:05:50 11/13/03 Thu

"I think the opposite. If you just let your emotions rule whatever you do, you're flirting with disaster. Teenagers usually behave that way, but they rarely have a sense of the future. If you can see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly wrong for you because of their life style, getting into it further is little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings. Sooner or later you will lose."

I'm not suggesting that one simply allow one's emotions to rule. What I'm suggesting that it is futile to simply base one's feelings for another on morality. That person will end up fooling him or herself. I think a person has to be honest about his or her feelings toward another and decide if he/she is capable of being with that person, despite any opposite view on morality. At least before he/she makes a decision to stick with or reject that person.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Morality is an emotion, or at least involves them -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:20:56 11/13/03 Thu

Morality certainly governs guilt, for example. If your morals value helping people, doing so will make one feel proud. If one's morality is really opposed to violence, the knowledge that people are being hurt can make them feel either anger or pity. If morality can govern all these emotions and more, I don't see why it doesn't play a part in whether we love or not.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, but... (spoilers) -- Scroll, 14:20:58 11/13/03 Thu

I agree that we shouldn't recklessly allow emotions to rule our decisions, especially in regards to something as important as who we choose as our significant others.

I saw Wesley's decision to break up with Lilah in "Habeas Corpses" to be based largely on what you describe here: If you can see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly wrong for you because of their life style, getting into it further is little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings. Sooner or later you will lose.

Wesley made the choice to break it off before either he or Lilah could get any deeper, or any more hurt. Unfortunately, I do believe that Lilah's feelings for Wesley were already beyond anything "rational". The break-up clearly wasn't mutual. And Wesley, for all his rational and moral decision-making (and yes, I do agree with his decision to break-up with Lilah, as much as I love the pairing), was a lot more emotionally involved than he ever admitted to himself until it was too late and Lilah was already dead.

So while it is much better that a good person not compromise their morality by ignoring or pretending to ignore the evil doings/morality of their partner, I think even "good" people like Buffy and Wesley can be lonely and reckless enough to get involved with morally "grey" people like Spike and Lilah, and have emotions speak louder than reason.

And while I think it's safer for me not to speak of Buffy/Spike, I truly believe that Wesley loved Lilah almost as much as she loved him, though sadly he never realised it until it was too late. Which is why I'm having such a difficult time accepting Wesley's interest in Fred. It seems too soon for him to move on. Granted we haven't really seen much of Wesley before this episode, but I find it difficult to accept because we don't have any evidence that Wesley thinks of Lilah at all. His line about his last girlfriend was spoken so flippantly. (Again, it could just be me and the significance I place on Wes/Lilah.) Anyway, just my opinion : )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is the relationship between a moral compass... ("Salvage" spoilers) -- Caroline, 19:32:08 11/13/03 Thu

Wes believing that he can save Lilah says something about his compassion and is an expression of his morality, certainly. But since when does reason rule emotion? Wes may have held himself back from her for all sorts of good reasons - lack of trust is a really good one - but that does not preclude any love for her on his part. One can be in love and hold back. If you were to tell me that he was in love with Fred or give me some other reason for why he couldn't love Lilah, I would give it the benefit of the doubt but if you are trying to tell me that reason could change emotion, I gotta disagree. Reason may rule action (witness Wes trying to save Lilah) but reason couldn't prevent him from getting involved with her or from feeling something for her when he did. He may not have fallen in love with her but morality had little to do with it - that's not what led him down the path with Lilah. It was something much more complicated and irrational.

[> Boooiiiinnnngggg!!!! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Darby, 06:14:15 11/13/03 Thu

My personal theory is that the mindwipe is more of a misdirect - a push to just not think about certain things, with Connor being the focus and therefore the thing closest to impossible to remember.

A side effect has been a bit of regression in the characters, but their developed personae are in there scratching to get out, and once out, the spell will be weakened - we're gradually working toward a confrontation over this.

Fred, forced into running a department, was the first to regain the tough-as-nails chippee she became through Season 4. Gunn has picked up some of the suave he got last year, but since it could be part of W&H's enhancements he hasn't really taken a hard look at it. Lorne has lost his way as Angel's true conscience (and he's got the skills to possibly sense the mind adjustments), but he's mightily distracted, as Life of the Party showed. Wes, who went through perhaps the biggest changes, has had the most difficult, erratic recovery, mostly through forced events - would he have remembered Lilah and the circumstances of her death in a less emotionally-charged situation, and is this why Ghost Lilah has been kept away from him? - but he has to come along the most slowly, because he's the one most likely to get an inkling of what's going on.

I think we're seeing that Angel needs his crew, his evolved crew, around him to be truly effective, and Wes is a key element - while they all redevelop, he is stagnant.

On another note, I really like how Wes takes no solace in the Daddy-was-a-Cyborg excuse. Was I the only one who was curious about Dark Wes' reaction to his next Daddy-Dearest encounter-? His willingness to fully accept, if not embrace, his take-no-more-crap dark side is a key part of the character ME has spent several years developing.

[> [> Addendum (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Darby, 07:31:48 11/13/03 Thu

How many times have we watched movies / shows and been screaming, "SHOOT him already, before he [fill in action here]!" The episode was quality television if only for that image.

It was an action that, unfortunately, Wesley absolutely believes his father could have made as well. I think that this is the realization that was eating at him at the end.

[> [> [> Re: Addendum (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Rob, 08:21:13 11/13/03 Thu

It was an action that, unfortunately, Wesley absolutely believes his father could have made as well. I think that this is the realization that was eating at him at the end.

And that's what keeps the ending from being a cop-out. On a lesser show, realizing that he had only killed a robot who was pretending to be his father would have been a huge relief to the character. But Wes is just as disturbed by his actions as if he had killed his own father, and does not let himself off the hook. In many ways, it reminds me of Wes at the end of "Billy," which also ended on a scene with Fred that Wes leaves feeling completely uncomforted and uneasy.

Rob

[> [> Re: Boooiiiinnnngggg!!!! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- leslie, 09:37:20 11/13/03 Thu

"On another note, I really like how Wes takes no solace in the Daddy-was-a-Cyborg excuse."

Even more, I liked how, when he shot his "father," the feeling I got was not so much someone forcing himself to do something because he had to (which was how his father was reading the situation up to that point) so much as, now he finally had an excuse to do what he had wanted to do all along. I think ultimately that is why he sent Fred away at the end--Wes is self-aware enough to know that he did really want to kill his father and she simply provided a strong enough excuse for him to do it.

[> [> [> I thought the same thing. -- CW, 12:48:13 11/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> Maybe the prophesy was "the son will kill the father"? -- jane, 22:40:02 11/13/03 Thu

[> Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 07:20:38 11/13/03 Thu

I don't think many have claimed that Wesley has been completely reverted back to early season 3. He seems more a mixture of that and season 4 Wesley: "pre-Billy" Wesley with an edge. A semi-awkward book-guy with beard stubble and guns.

Wesley apparently does remember the key events of season 4--the Beast, Jasmine, his relationship with Lilah, just with the Conner-y bits removed.

But does he lie awake at night thinking about Lilah and wondering what he could have done differently to save her, to help her? Does his mind travel back to when they first started their dance together, wondering how he ever got involved with her in the first place? And if he does, what are his conclusions? There is a big gap there, and it is smack in the middle of season 3--he doesn't remember how he got estranged from the gang in the first place--he doesn't remember taking Connor. Or if he remembers something, he remembers it differently.

One thing is certain. Wesley's issues with an unloving, critical father go back way before season 3. That's old and it's real and it has informed who he is. And another thing is clear--Wesley had ruthless tendencies in the cause of Good long before the end of season 3 of AtS. His willingness to sacrifice Willow in "Choices" (season 3 of BtVS) was early evidence of this.

So in "Lineage", seeing the man he thought was his father brought out something primal in Wesley that, coupled with what he does remember of seasons 3 and 4 turned him patricidal. In a moment of "do something, but make a choice", he chose to kill his father, and after he pulled the trigger once, he went into a kind of over-kill that speaks of long held-in feelings of rage.

So I still can't let go of the theory that in some ways, the Wesley we see now is a mixture of early season 3 Wesley and season 4 Wesley. And just as we were speculating that his dorky, inhibited reaction to Fred in "Life of the Party" seemed pre-"Billy", this latest episode, "Lineage" was his season 5 "Billy".

He did something dark and he did it based on feelings that are still in him from seasons 3 and 4, whether he remembers their origins or not, and he did it based on the primal urges his bitter feelings towards his father bring out in him. He was devastated at his behavior, and like in Billy, when Fred assured him it "wasn't really him" (or in this case, "you knew it really wasn't your father"), Wesley doesn't quite believe her.

Then, he starts to do something that is distinctly not season 3-Wesley-like. He begins to open up to Fred, reveal his feelings for her, and just then, Knox appears. The obstacle Wesley can either hide his feelings behind again or not.

So perhaps Wesley will hide his feelings once again, isolating himself from the others until some season 5-ish version of his kidnapping of Connor in season 3 (spoken about at length in "Lineage") is replayed.

[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Rob, 08:25:28 11/13/03 Thu

In a moment of "do something, but make a choice", he chose to kill his father, and after he pulled the trigger once, he went into a kind of over-kill that speaks of long held-in feelings of rage.

I wonder if it's also meant to be significant that the action Wesley takes in this episode is the exact opposite of the prophecy that first caused the rift between Wes and Angel in the first place, leading to "Dark Wes", his relationship with Lilah, etc.

Rob

[> [> [> Oh, I know... (5.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 09:08:43 11/13/03 Thu

I was like, "Hey, look, the son will kill the father".

Sort of.

[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Seven, 09:02:35 11/13/03 Thu

Masq,

This early analysis is right on. Wes' actions have, until this episode, been showing many characteristics of season 3 Wes. But under the surface is season 4 Wes.

His willingness to kill Fries
His physical appearance
His gun use

The reason the season 3 traits are so appearent is because we were looking for them. They were also more of a focus in the show. I too have thought that since some of the gang's memory has been lost, they will soon "re-do" the events that they are missing--albiet in some different fasion. It was instantly recognizable that Wes has relived his "Billy" experiance but I thought about it early on when Fred was injured in the teaser. He likely brought Fred because he wanted an excuse to be around her. That decision got her hurt, even if that perspective makes her feel weak and patronized. Wes feels this was his fault, not the fault of outside forces (the cyborgs) just as he thought his actions in Billy were his fault and not Billy's.

Eve even foreshadow's Wes' inevitable betraying of Angel when she says, "You're worried he will betray you again, even if he doesn't remember the first time." (or something close to that.)

What she should have said was "You're worried that he will betray you again for the first time" It is possible that Angel is starting to worry that his actions concerning the mind-wipe will start to play out, which they are.

Also to note is that Wes' season 4 side has emerged when it has to. When circumstances call for physical combat or other things that he has already overcome his inadequaces in, he either remembers that he can do it or it comes naturally. While he may remember his sexcapades with Lilah, he also remembers that his ability to pursue a real relationship was a failure. He doesn't want to just (pardon the term, but) "fuck" Fred, he wants a relationship and that is a hurdle in his life that he has not overcome yet, mind-wipe or not. So his inability to talk to Fred about the relationship is still a problem. Knox keeps getting in the way (just as Gunn did) and this keeps him from growing. It is not until Wes is forced to do something, when the fight is already lost, that he is able to see the correct answer and change his mode of behavior to suit what needs to be done. This is why Dark! or post betrayal Wes is so focused and capable, because his back is constantly against the wall and he doesn't care about the consequences. With Fred, he analyizes every word he says and every action and inaction that the does, making him never do what he wants.

Whew, uhm, i went on a little longer than i thought i would, but also i must note that I believe Fred's Iamwomanhearmeroar perspective will soon be a focus of her arc. She wants to be the opposite of what she was when the gang found her in Pylea. Go back to our first bookend of this season to the line "I'm more of a run away from danger girl" and Knox saying he finds that hard to believe. She will clearly be developing her dark side soon, only because she may be forced to with so much testosterone fueling the male dominated offices of W&H.

[> [> [> Yeah, they're building up to something... (spoilers 5.7) -- Masq, 09:54:04 11/13/03 Thu

with Fred. Repeated references to her being a woman, repeated repeated repeated references to her being patronized and occasionally insulted. She doesn't like it, and she's not early season 3 Fred by a long shot.

But this is where I start having problems. When did Fred really change and grow as a fighter and not just "the brain"? A lot of it started in the summer of '02, when they didn't have Angel around because he was sunk to the bottom of the ocean by he-who-shall-not-be-named. What does Fred remember about that?

And we have Dark Wesley still, and he remembers much of season 4, but what does he remember of season 3? That was such a Connor-centric season. Every episode centered around either Connor as unborn mystery child, Connor as baby or Connor as teenager. The event that set Wesley on his dark track and into Lilah's arms is All.About.Connor. Wesley must spend time wondering how he got to be as dark as he is now, how he got involved with Lilah. What does he think about in those moments? Does he have an alternate set of memories?

M.E. NEEDS to explain themselves on what each member of the fang gang know about how they got to be the way they are, especially Wesley, and some time soon.

[> [> [> [> I think they did. Speculation post-Lineage, no future Spoilers -- Arethusa, 10:36:01 11/13/03 Thu

(If someone's already said this, please forgive.) Wes said his girlfriend was killed by a higher power-Cordelia. ME's plan was to have Cordelia go bad so Angel would have to battle someone he loved, and I think Cordelia was never meant to come back from her evilness. But Carpenter became pregnant, so Jasmine was added. ME might just be going with their original plot--Cordy goes evil and wackiness ensues. Pehaps Wes was meant to team up with W&H behind Angel's back to fight Cordelia, which would set up a similar path of betrayal and sweaty naughtiness with Lilah.

I agree about Fred. I also think it's interesting that Angel is still dealing with the issue of free will this year. He's afraid he's being controlled by W&H and two baddies managed to physically control him.

[> [> [> [> [> I noticed that too (5.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 10:43:13 11/13/03 Thu

They were deliberately vague in that sentence. They said "woman" or "girlfriend" or whatever instead of "Lilah". They said "Higher Power" instead of "Cordelia" (or "Jasmine" for that matter).

I just wish they were a little more specific on how Wesley remembers the events of season 4 unfolding.

Better yet, I just wish they were a little more specific on how Wesley remembers the events of season 3 unfolding!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: specificity and memories (5.7 spoilers) -- leslie, 10:58:10 11/13/03 Thu

I think the reason they are not being specific is precisely to arouse this kind of fevered discussion among the already-established faithful. Every week there's a little drop of information about the mind-wipe; there are hints that something's a brewin' with Fred and her womanliness; Spike's acting erratic and what's up with that... ME can't do the kind of intense arc that would have had all of that taken care of in 15 minutes and on to the next trauma, so they're taking the slow, let's-torture-the-fans approach.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Speaking of the next trauma... Spoilers for all episodes this season. -- Arethusa, 11:05:36 11/13/03 Thu

Am I the only one missing all the AtS angst and trauma? I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop-that if this were last year, Wes would have really killed his father, Angel would have gotten Eve pregnant with an evil love-child and given up any hope of Shanshu redemption, and Hulk Lorne would have killed the entire staff of Fox Studios at the office party. (And you just know they were there, in all their evil glory.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You and me both, Arethusa -- Masq, 11:24:52 11/13/03 Thu

I was thinking about this last night during my usual post-AtS insomnia. This season seems... shallow for some reason. Without its usual depths. And then I realized the reason. It's not just the memory wipe. It's the general lightness of the eps. Too monster of the week, things get resolved. Too light considering the situation they're in (working for the bad guys? I mean, c'mon, there should be moral angst abounding!).

Then Rufus' spoilerific warning pops in my head. "You want angst, Masq? You just wait!"

And I am reassured. The sturm and drang that is AtS at its finest will emerge from this fluffy bunny AtS.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You and me both, Arethusa -- Rob, 12:02:21 11/13/03 Thu

Too monster of the week, things get resolved. Too light considering the situation they're in (working for the bad guys? I mean, c'mon, there should be moral angst abounding!).

The end of the past two episodes, though, I think hold good signs for future angst. The fact that Wes didn't really kill his father was little relief to him, and both Angel and then Wes in the last moments of the past two episodes seemed uneasy and pensive. So while the plot of the episode was tied up by the end, there is some emotional stuff still dangling.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I wasn't kidding about angst either......<g>....;) -- Rufus, 04:19:22 11/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I don't know... -- Philistine, 19:44:27 11/13/03 Thu

I like that ME seem to have regained their sense of fun. The past year and a half or so of Angel - essentially Connor's entire run on the show - was so brutally, relentlessly down that it got to be almost unwatchable. All Angst All The Time is not only less entertaining, it's also less effective. Not that I'm anti-angst, but for Cthulhu's sake let me occasionally see the characters having fun: give me a standard of comparison... and a reason to care.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And it's working! -- Masq, 11:19:13 11/13/03 Thu

Every week there's a little drop of information about the mind-wipe ...so they're taking the slow, let's-torture-the-fans approach.

As a long-time faithful fan and memory wipe obsessive personality, it is torture, but at the same time, it's reassuring. Every ep has some hint or other, more subtle in earlier episodes than it is now. I was very cynical about how they would handle the memory wipe over the summer. Now I'm chomping at the bit for how it will unravel.

But patience isn't one of my virtues. ; )

[> [> [> [> [> [> Heh! -- Arethusa, 11:00:02 11/13/03 Thu

I wonder how everyone will feel if/when they do get their memories back. Would they want to remember that Wes stole Connor, Angel tried to kill Wes and did kill Connor, and Gunn and Fred killed Seidel? In Tabula Rasa and Spin the Bottle, everyone was burdened by their returned memories, and not happy to remember their recent past.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gunn and Fred -- Masq, 11:10:18 11/13/03 Thu

I've been a bit miffed by Gunn and Fred's blase attitude towards each other this season. They act like they never had a thing. Which could be explained by the memory wipe, but after Wesley's revealing how much of season 4 he does remember, I'm wondering how much Gunn and Fred remember of their romance. Fred calls Gunn "Charles", a habit she picked up when they were dating.

And I'm not at all convinced Fred and Gunn don't remember the Seidel incident. After all, it had nothing to do with Connor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good point. -- Arethusa, 11:28:53 11/13/03 Thu

Perhaps Fred never would have got around to writing her paper on supersymmetry if Angel hadn't been sunk in the ocean-but that's admittedly a bit thin. Would Fred be so defensive regarding her fighting abilities if she remembered attempting to kill Seidel? But as you say Gunn and Fred are very casual around each other. And Gunn expressed admiration for Fred's brains, while last year he was afraid he wasn't smart or educated enough for her. OTOH, the fact that he did let W&H tinker with his brain to become more educated shows he was still insecure about his intelligence, although this could have little to do with Fred directly.

Aaargh!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gunn's brain -- Masq, 13:59:43 11/13/03 Thu

OTOH, the fact that he did let W&H tinker with his brain to become more educated shows he was still insecure about his intelligence, although this could have little to do with Fred directly.

I don't think Gunn has ever been insecure about his intelligence. It's his level of education and the kind of work he has had to do that's the issue for him. He knows he has brains, but given his life circumstances, he never got a chance to use that potential until now.

Fred's life circumstances allowed her to attend college and graduate school, something Gunn was perfectly capable of doing but didn't get to do. Fred also at the same time is off-the-chart smarter than your average grad student, but Gunn never felt the need to compete with that. He just wanted to be acknowledged for being as smart as he in fact is, and he wasn't getting credit for even that being "the muscle".

Wolfram and Hart's offer of instant knowledge had to seem like the offer of a lifetime to Gunn, the chance to make up for (probably) dropping out of grade school and (definitely) not going to college.

Wolfram and Hart couldn't give Gunn more intelligence than he already has (well, maybe they could, but they didn't), they just gave him more knowledge than he has. Which any decent college and law school would also have been able to do if Gunn had been able to fork over the tuition.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gunn's brain -- Arethusa, 19:23:11 11/13/03 Thu

I agree with you about his education. But I also think he did feel self-conscious about his intelligence. In Supersymmetry he felt left behind. "If she thinks we're both stupid, I won't stand out as much," he said to Angel during Fred's lecture. Gunn seemed to think Wes was smarter than he, and that Fred would prefer the smarter man, something Angelus later taunts him with repeatedly. By Long Day's Journey he is openly jealous and hostile to Wes. And in his conversations with Gwen and Angelus he seems to think Fred left him for Wes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But... -- KdS, 04:23:51 11/14/03 Fri

It's possible that without Connor Wes didn't become quite so estranged from the gang in general, or so morally defeatist, in early S4 and didn't give Fred the magical info to kill Seidel. Seidel might still have ended up dead, but the manner of it and the distribution of responsibility for it might have been very different.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes!! (spoilers for "Home" and "Lineage") -- Rob, 12:05:18 11/13/03 Thu

I am going crazy trying to figure out if the "girlfriend" he chopped into little bits was in fact, in his memory, Lilah or not. Does he even remember going out with Lilah now? We have not seen them interact since Angel "killed" Connor.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes!! (spoilers for "Home" and "Lineage") -- leslie, 13:38:30 11/13/03 Thu

Yes--my first thought, being in the "they don't remember last season" mode, was that he was remembering an alternate ending to his relationship with Virginia (wasn't that her name? The red-head?).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me, too!! -- Rob, 13:42:08 11/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, except (little 5.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 14:27:12 11/13/03 Thu

He broke up with Virginia in the middle of Season 2 ("Reprise", I think, episode 2.15), and his memories should all be in tact up until the middle of "Offspring" (ep 3.07), if they are purely Connor-related.

They don't say "Lilah", which is telling, but it seems to me it has to be Lilah. But that creates real problems, namely, "Now how did I get involved with this (albeit hot) evil lawyer to begin with?"

ME! You have got some 'splaining to do!

[> [> But . . . -- Claudia, 09:21:54 11/13/03 Thu

"Wesley apparently does remember the key events of season 4--the Beast, Jasmine, his relationship with Lilah, just with the Conner-y bits removed."

But how can that be? It was due to Connor's existence in the first place, that led to Wesley's affair with Lilah. If he doesn't have memories of Connor, how could he have memories of his affair with Lilah?

[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Caroline, 09:50:51 11/13/03 Thu

I think you hit on some really important points about Wes. I personally feel that what Wes remembers will be key to not only my continued enjoyment of the show but also to the plotline this year. And since his relationship with his father informs so much of his relationship with Angel, it was great to see them tie it all together. I think we may be getting into some old Shakespearean appearance/reality themes happening here - while everyone's memories are suppressed, who they are is not suppressed and it seems as though some of the same mistakes that were made and not remembered in the past may occur once again.

What I am also concerned about is the impact Wes' relationship with his father has had on his personal relationships. The power imbalance inherent in their relationship has not been resolved and the unresolved rage has resulted in Wes only being able to sustain relationships with a huge power imbalance. There is his feelings for Fred, which result in her being put up on a pedestal and Wes' worship from afar and there is Lilah (and maybe Justine) which is based on cruelty. Wes belittles Lilah but the beauty of their relationship was that I saw Wes' humanity and compassion coming through, particularly at the darkest moments, where he realizes what he is doing. With Lilah gone, Wes has gone back to worshipping Fred. He was making progress in resolving the darkness within himself in a way (I felt) that was not destructive personally. With Fred, I don't feel that is the case - his feelings for her and his view of her is too extreme. He has killed his father for her (not literally but you know what I mean) and he now has to deal with the gravity of that issue. I hope that Wes can resolve those feelings and 'kill' the internalized father and come through this without huge personal loss.

[> [> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 10:36:39 11/13/03 Thu

I personally feel that what Wes remembers will be key to not only my continued enjoyment of the show but also to the plotline this year.

Absolutely agree. I was a basket case this summer because of my fears about what the memory wipe might do to Wesley's personality. I agree that while they don't remember the events themselves, the emotional impact of the events is still there. The physical scar left by Justine is gone, but the psychological scars remain.

I think Wesley's renewed attachment to Fred isn't really about Fred. It's about Fred being an "anti-Lilah" of a sort. Wesley feels he failed Lilah morally, but he has assumed that he doesn't have to worry that he will fail Fred. She is good and pure, at least in his eyes. Then he "lets" her get wounded, and he "kills" his father for her. Big-time guilt and over compensation that is more about Wesley and his relationship with his father and his relationship with Lilah than it is his relationship with Fred.

I mean, let's face it. Wesley has a hard time seeing the real Fred. He can pay lip-service to how much she's grown and changed in her self-confidence and her own darkness, but he still wants his little anti-Lilah.

[> [> [> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Claudia, 11:58:16 11/13/03 Thu

"I think Wesley's renewed attachment to Fred isn't really about Fred. It's about Fred being an "anti-Lilah" of a sort. Wesley feels he failed Lilah morally, but he has assumed that he doesn't have to worry that he will fail Fred. She is good and pure, at least in his eyes. Then he "lets" her get wounded, and he "kills" his father for her. Big-time guilt and over compensation that is more about Wesley and his relationship with his father and his relationship with Lilah than it is his relationship with Fred."

Yeah, but if Connor had never existed in his mind, how did Wesley remember his affair with Lilah in the first place?

[> [> [> [> [> We just don't know (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Scroll, 14:44:53 11/13/03 Thu

Yeah, but if Connor had never existed in his mind, how did Wesley remember his affair with Lilah in the first place?

We're just going to have to wait and see. I'm as eager as the next person for more to be revealed about the Connor mind-wipe. I want to know what exactly Wesley remembers, and how he feels about it. I want to know where/who Connor is right now, and what exactly were the ramifications of the reality/memory altering spell that W&H did to make Connor "happy". And my little Wes/Lilah loving heart would love to know how much Wesley remembers about Lilah and their affair, and how it all started and how it ended, and the whole shebang. But we just don't have enough information at this time to know for sure. We can only speculate.

But I have to think that this is what ME wants: fans speculating, trying to figure it all out, anxious for more. Joss will tell us when he's good and ready to tell us.

My personal speculation? Wesley remembers the events of Seasons 3 and 4, knows all the details -- save Connor. Everything happened the way we saw it on screen, but no Connor. And when Wesley tries to think back about why he made the decisions he made, his motivations, something will stop him from understanding himself -- rather like the Glory/Ben spell that kept the Scoobies from truly understanding that Glory and Ben were the same person. So Wesley knows he had an affair with Lilah, he just doesn't really know why, and his mind won't really let him figure it out. It's easier just to focus on Fred.

And I think I subscribe to Finn and Masq's theory that the emotional developments of S3-4 are there, even though the physical evidence and some of the facts have become blurred, or even disappeared altogether.

Claudia, what do you think?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We just don't know (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- RadiusRS, 15:57:49 11/13/03 Thu

My thinking is that the last scene, rather than a rehash of the scene from a few seasons ago, cemented the Dark Wes persona for the longtime fans while showing the newer fans the existence of this side of Wes. I believe Wes didn't give up on Fred because he was scared of his feelings for her, but because he realized he HAS become too dark for her. And if the mindwipe erased his memory of the Connor betrayal, then it stands to reason that he doesn't remember getting darker, and therefore Fred never went to him for help against Seidel, a truly Dark Wesley action. Perhaps his feelings for Fred have caused a short circuit as, in this episode, he realizes that he is much darker and ruthless than he thought and than he has acted for most of this season. Maybe when he sees Knox (who is admittedly Evil Lite), he decides he is too dark for Fred (once again making decisions for her and patronizing her by not allowing HER to choose, a major Fred-theme from last season) so he lets her go, and goes to call his father, perhaps because he's realized that the only way to stem the darkness in him is to make sure he has SOME relationship with dear old Dad and try to reconnect.

I do wish that they'd give the Spike vs. Angel for the humanity prize Shanshu thing more than a couple minutes an ep as it feels kind of forced into the episodes. I also wish they'd be a bit more direct about the mindwipe like they were last episode when Angel slipped up in front of Wes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We just don't know (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Claudia, 16:19:48 11/13/03 Thu

"My personal speculation? Wesley remembers the events of Seasons 3 and 4, knows all the details -- save Connor. Everything happened the way we saw it on screen, but no Connor. And when Wesley tries to think back about why he made the decisions he made, his motivations, something will stop him from understanding himself -- rather like the Glory/Ben spell that kept the Scoobies from truly understanding that Glory and Ben were the same person. So Wesley knows he had an affair with Lilah, he just doesn't really know why, and his mind won't really let him figure it out. It's easier just to focus on Fred.

And I think I subscribe to Finn and Masq's theory that the emotional developments of S3-4 are there, even though the physical evidence and some of the facts have become blurred, or even disappeared altogether.

Claudia, what do you think?"

I think you may be right. I only hope that ME doesn't disappoint us in this regard. Although to be honest, I would have preferred if Wesley had not remembered his affair with Lilah, following the mindwipe. It would have been interesting to note his reaction, once he did remember.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Scroll, 16:34:35 11/13/03 Thu

Although to be honest, I would have preferred if Wesley had not remembered his affair with Lilah, following the mindwipe. It would have been interesting to note his reaction, once he did remember.

I have to agree with you here, that's for sure. Glad as I am that Lilah will be mentioned and dealt with, I think it would've made a greater dramatic impact if ME had Wesley lose all memory of his affair with Lilah, and then when/if the big reveal came about, suddenly remember and have to deal with his feelings and the consequences of Angel's decisions on screen where we fans could watch and sympathise and understand. Right now, all that's happened with the Lilah mention is that we're even more confused than before.

[> [> [> [> Memories: False, Real, and Computed -- dmw, 18:11:58 11/13/03 Thu

Absolutely agree. I was a basket case this summer because of my fears about what the memory wipe might do to Wesley's personality. I agree that while they don't remember the events themselves, the emotional impact of the events is still there. The physical scar left by Justine is gone, but the psychological scars remain.

I think you're right about the emotional impact of forgotten events remaining, but I'm curious as to the means through which that happened--does Wesley recall a different reason for leaving the group and taking up with Lilah? While our past consists more of gaps than memory, the important events and decisions are remembered, and if there's not something to explain those decisions and events, the illusion will unravel rapidly. And is the physical scar from Justine gone, or is it present and he remembers its source differently?

Whatever the explanation, I'm very glad they've brought it up and hopefully will continue with it. I'm also curious about the origin of the cyborgs. I doubt they're actually from a reforming CoW, but since they were supposedly fighting evil before arriving in LA, who did create them and where do their memories come from, especially those all too accurate ones about Wesley from the supposedly destroyed CoW records?

[> [> [> [> [> I'm leaning to the Finn Mac Cool/Scroll theory (unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 18:52:20 11/13/03 Thu

That there are holes in their memories where the Connor-events should go, but every time they start thinking about them, their minds do a Ben/Glory thing where they just stop thinking about it. Much in the way the Scooby gang forgot that Ben was Glory as soon as they learned it, the Fang gang can't linger too long on, "what's wrong with the missing bits in my memory?" without their minds wandering to other things.

[> [> [> [> [> I'm leaning to the Finn Mac Cool/Scroll theory (unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 19:00:41 11/13/03 Thu

That there are holes in their memories where the Connor-events should go, but every time they start thinking about them, their minds do a Ben/Glory thing where they just stop thinking about it. Much in the way the Scooby gang forgot that Ben was Glory as soon as they learned it, the Fang gang can't linger too long on, "what's wrong with the missing bits in my memory?" without their minds wandering to other things.

Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7) -- Ponygirl, 21:56:29 11/12/03 Wed

Hi Drew!

How've you been? I can't believe it's been since LMPTM that I've last seen your name in the "written by" credits (though you certainly did remind us of that ep. didn't you? heh!). Hope you had a great summer.

Anyhoo just saw Lineage and yay! When I heard about this ep. I was excited to see if you could do for Wesley what you did for Anya in Selfless, but I had to admit the "cyborg-ninja-assasins" thing gave me pause. Sorry to doubt, even though they looked like they had coffee cans over their faces, the idea had a certain icky poignancy - these robots were more human than not.

I gotta tell you though Drew, exposition is not your strong suit. The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels, and Wes' scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally unnecessary flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most likely a director's choice so not blaming you.

Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out at first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have been too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year. I'm intrigued but still wary about this introduction of an outside element of new good/bad guys, I'm leery of you guys setting up oodles of internal conflict then in the end pulling in something tangible to pummel. It's probably just season 7 talking. I'm over it, really. Sort of.

But enough about the bad, I'm writing to send out the love and plenty of it.

First of all a cherry-covered Lorne is on his way to your office as a thank you for the Spike dialogue. It was hysterically funny but even better it involved him interacting with the others. Then there was the scene in the elevator with Eve which had the effect of giving a sudden hard outline to both characters - something that had been sorely lacking for a while. I agree with Eve that there's more to Spike's snarky spirit act than meets the eye. The Pavayne line was funny as hell but it showed just how much fear is beneath the surface. A vampire who's afraid of the dark? Who'd have thought? Still not liking Eve but keeping an open mind.

Actually the Eve/Angel/Wes scene while not high on my rewind list still made me notice how Angel seemed to be speaking Wesley's darker thoughts, while Eve spoke Angel's. Everybody is playing the devil on the shoulder to someone else.

And yes, Wesley. Was it wrong that what I loved best was the return of dead-eyed Wesley, unhesitantly emptying his gun into his father? From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back into his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance and ruthlessness down. Until that moment. That darkness is still in him to an extent that he most likely was not aware. What's he going to do with the knowledge of what's inside?

I'm not crazy about the use of Fred as Wes' prime motivation, but I do appreciate how his feelings for her have been consistently shown to be unhealthy and unreturned. Fred was right to invoke the parent/child dynamic in Wes' behaviour, icky though that may be.

Interesting that the daddy Wes ended up proving himself to was Angel. Though with all the people in the office who've killed their parents, paternal is a label Angel would be wise to avoid. In fact after this episode Wes may find prophecies about a father killing a son a refreshing change of pace.

Getting late but a few random bits:
- So Wes remembers Lilah's death and his go go gadget arm? What else does he remember from last year? Drew you're such a tease!

- Another M.C. Escher remark.

- And another Harry Potter reference! Was Percy Head Boy in Chamber of Secrets or Prisoner of Azkaban?

- Let's give Knox something other to do than look adorable, pretty please!

- Lorne's intro to Rodger was priceless. Love how he used the tradtional, and now that I think about it, condescending, meeting someone's mom type flattery. Good for him for not playing by our gender roles!

- Yet another episode about will and Angel's lack of. Hmm, are you trying to tell us something? Is that an anvil I see before me?

- "This was never about Wesley." Yes, I know but it was great to see so much of him.

That's it from me. Great episode, Drew, and don't stay away so long again, 'kay?

Hugs!

Ponygirl

(with apologies to those TWoP recaplet-ers that I've been enjoying lately)

Replies:

[> not drew but answering anyway -- anom, 22:54:22 11/12/03 Wed

"The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels, and Wes' scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally unnecessary flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most likely a director's choice so not blaming you."

Yeah, & Fred-as-hostage was so predictable it's not plausible neither Wes nor Fred saw it coming. (I liked Fred-as-muscle a lot better.)

"Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out at first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have been too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year."

I would've liked to hear some explicit mention of the possibility that the cyborg really was originally Roger, even though that was ruled out at the end. Nah--they'd never have gotten the drop on him to turn him into one of those things. Right?

"From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back into his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance and ruthlessness down."

I wonder if a non-mindwiped Wes would have done any better at facing his father. Or would he have gone too far in the other direction?

And finally...I'm thinkin' there must be a way to mystically password-protect those template books.

[> Re: Played any video games lately? (spoilers 5.7) -- neaux, 04:15:29 11/13/03 Thu

I pray I'm not the only one who Saw what looked like visual references to MAX PAYNE and Metal Gear Solid last night.

oh say.. lets check out this page

[> Re: Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7) -- CW, 06:52:45 11/13/03 Thu

The great thing about Drew is that despite the flaws, and there are some, the episode turns out beautifully.

Personally, it usually drives me nuts when some TV or movie imposter easily fits in and fools people intimately close to the real person. It wasn't that hard to guess ahead of time that Daddy Dearest was going to attack Wes in the vault and would eventually turn out to be a robot. But, I still enjoyed this ep a lot.

My favorite line was Spike's "...So, how've you been?"

[> [> Re: impersonation (spoilers 5.7) -- skeeve, 08:44:10 11/13/03 Thu

The impression I got was that Daddy didn't have a lot of personality to impersonate.

What personality Daddy did have suggested he was more into bludgeoning with words than with bludgeons.

I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more common than you might think.
He would know.
What kind of progeny should Spike and a Buffy-robot produce?

Now then, what are they going to do about all those WC records?

[> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers 5.7) -- leslie, 09:26:03 11/13/03 Thu

"I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more common than you might think.
He would know."

The thing is, it was when he said that that Eve started really staring at him. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that she is a robot. She thought he was on to her.

Also, the massive contrast between Spike's demeanour in the scene in the elevator and his behavior in every other context leads me to believe that he is really losing it. He used to be able to put on the tough-guy snarky business so smoothly you thought it was the real him, but now it's like he's desperately trying to direct attention elsewhere (if he thinks Pavayne might still be after him, no wonder--does he know Pavayne is locked up in the basement? Does he believe the prison is inviolable?) "Hey! Look at that idiot over there! Angel beat up an old man! Wesley is a prig! Over there! That guy! Not me!" And really, when did Spike ever have a problem with anyone, especially a woman, looking at him too much?

But ultimately, I think the real question is, who's behind the whole plot? And I think that, even though Evil Dad turned out to be a robot, it's the reconsitituting Watcher's Council. They'd have the best access to the information needed to create a convincing replica, after all, and from the one side of the final conversation we hear between Wes and his (we assume) real father, I don't think that Wes is going to get around to saying, "Hey, dad, by the way, did you know that someone replicated you and sent it over here to perpetrate evil in your name? What's up with that?"

[> [> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers 5.7) -- skeeve, 15:13:57 11/13/03 Thu

I'd have stared too had I not already known about Spike and the Buffybot.
There's no reason Eve would have known.
I'd have really stared had I taken seriously his suggestion of progeny.

Gettin back to Wes, Fred should have said thank you.
Not just for ordinary politeness, but to remind Wes that he'd done the right thing and it would have still been the right thing had the target actually been his father.
With consoling like Wes got, who needs criticism?

[> [> [> [> Resources, Spike, Eve, & a gripe. -- RadiusRS, 16:33:41 11/13/03 Thu

Wolfram & Hart also has the resources to pull off what happened tonight. And I still say Inside Job. By the way, do you think perhaps Eve was going to the White Room when Spike interrupted her? And why would she tip her hand about the amulet being meant for Spike unless she WANTS to drive a wedge between him and Angel. I hope that the weird pacing I've felt so far this season is purposefully due to ME planning, trying to keep us off balance about what's going on and why everyone's acting so weird, though after Buffy S7, with the whole Giles acting weird debacle, "is-she-or-isn't she Joyce", and the toothless Big Bad, three great storylines with wasted potential, I'm not so sure anymore. And this doesn't feel like the usual ME red herring either, unless they have found a new method to trick us.

[> Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- Ponygirl, 09:41:42 11/13/03 Thu

There's a thread on the Angel After Spike board discussing Arthurian knights (it's also a massively spoilery thread so not for the spoiler-free or even spoiler-lite!) which got me wondering if the Percy comments were not simply a Harry Potter joke. Is the role of Percival/Parsifal that's been discussed here too lately not necessarily Spike's?

[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- Claudia, 10:46:15 11/13/03 Thu

You could be right. Someone has hinted that Wesley could be Percival.

[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) -- leslie, 10:47:52 11/13/03 Thu

Though the name "Percy" already has unfortunate associations in the Buffyverse due to that jock whom Willow tutored in S3.

The Father will kill the Son (spoilers up to 5.07) -- Lunasea, 08:08:32 11/13/03 Thu

The Father will devour the Son. ME's wonderful twist on the classic myth of the Prince killing the King in order to ascend to the throne. The Prince cannot be King as long as his father is still alive, unless the father abdicates his position. Our feelings about patricide often get in the way of the metaphor of giving up what we were in order to be what we can be. We have to "kill" what gave rise to us when it stands in our way in order to ascend to new heights.

I gave birth to my daughters, but they also gave birth to me. Children aren't just the created, but they are also creators. They made me a mother. I am powerless to make myself a mother. Only my children can make me one. Angel and Darla conceive Connor in a miracle, but the real miracle is what he makes them. Sharing his soul with Darla is more than just a plot device that enabled her redemption. Our children awaken our hearts.

In the standard myth, the Prince is more Heir than he is Son. An heir is necessary because of our mortality. The Prince isn't an individual in the eyes of the King, but an extension of him that will go on after he passes away. Angel, being immortal, doesn't need an heir. His son's future is open ended to him. Connor isn't someone to carry on for him, but an individual for him to love. Everyone else is worried about Connor as Heir and fulfiller of prophecy, but Angel sees him as his son.

Connor gives birth to Angel the Father. Even the events in "Sleep Tight" do not undo this. Angel the Father tries to find a way to bring back his son. What returns is "The Destroyer." Connor manages to do something that Holtz couldn't--he destroys Angel the Father. Holtz didn't want this. His revenge required Angel to remain a father. Eternal torment, Angelus' specialty that he demonstrated with Drusilla, was to be Angel's fate.

Jasmine was known to the insect demons as "the devourer" among other things. She devoured Connor until there was nothing left for Angel to be able to save. When Angel had to kill Connor to save him, the Father devoured the Son, but the Son devoured the Father as well. In having to do the unspeakable, Angel lost his identity as Father. He can't focus on trying to bring his son back or even mourn his death because Connor isn't dead.

In the mythology of AtS, it was important for Angel to lose this image of himself as Father, an image that Connor gave birth to. He had to move beyond Darla, the mother that sired him and Connor, the child that made him a father. The trip to the Belly of the Beast involves self-annihilation.

This is what I've been thinking about this week, even before "Legacy" aired. ME is doing a very good job of subconsciously creating the arc and when it finally is revealed to the conscious, it will seem evident all along.

Wesley didn't kill the body of his actual father, just like Angel didn't really kill Connor, but both of them know, they would have and as such they did kill them in their mind. It's all about Angel. "Bachelor Party" gave Angel's side of the Buffy/Angel breakup without having to be about Angel (namely his inability to cope with being a demon led to their break up). This set up "IWRY." I wonder what "Legacy" is setting up.

There has been much debate about why Angel is upset when it comes to Connor. There have been some excellent posts giving various theories. I would say based on "Legacy" Angel is upset because if he didn't have a way to save Connor, he knows he would have killed him outright to save others. He also blames himself for Connor being in that position.

As parents, our primary obligation is to our children. It is amazing what we will endure for their well being. As a father, Angel was willing to take some tremendous risks to try and bring Connor back. As a father, Angel ended world peace. As a father, Angel would have done anything to save his son. Anything, but give up the lives of the innocent. If it came down to a store full of innocents and his son, his son would have had to die. Angel knows this. His son is happy without him as Eve reminds him, but that doesn't alter the fact that Angel knows he would have killed his son if he had to. His son was an innocent that was in that position because of Angel and Angel still would have killed him if he had to.

With this theory, we can go back and look at the other episodes. "Conviction." What sort of conviction does Angel have as a father if he could kill his own son? It doesn't matter that he didn't. He would have and he knows it. That is what is eating him up. Tradition? Tradition dictates that a father wouldn't kill his own son. Fries is willing to kill his own child for his own ends. Fries' mission is himself. Angel's mission is the helpless and he chose that over his own son. In choosing that mission, Angel turned Connor into a bomb. Instead of helping Connor over Quortoth, he was busy fighting the Beast and turning into Angelus. He didn't have time to save him from Jasmine and even took out this frustration on Connor's face. He didn't have time to be the father Connor needed because he was busy with the mission, so Connor literally became a bomb, a bomb that magick had to diffuse. Magick and mercy. Angel is missing that he was willing to sacrifice himself and accept the Senior Partners' offer. He didn't kill his son, but showed him mercy. None of the gang can point this out.

"Just Rewards." Angel ended world peace to save his son. The one thing he lost was his son. Spike sees the high life that Angel now has and is jealous. His real jealousy is that Buffy loves Angel in a way that she will never love Spike. He can focus on the fancy cars and power though. Angel has everything he wants, according to Spike. What Angel wants is his son. Just as Spike wants Buffy's love, Angel wants his son's. I think it is fitting that Spike is non corporeal. He has little if any existence outside of Buffy. He could have stolen everything that Angel has, but he doesn't want it as Angel. He wants Buffy to love HIM, not just think he is Angel. Angel could have mojoed a loving good son. What would that have meant to him? His son was already dead, in his heart. Angel could have just had him reanimated. Would that have been his son?

Angel wasn't in time to actually save Nina. Nor was he in time to actually save Connor. Because Angel wasn't in time, Connor was taken to Quortoth to be raised by a vengeful madman. Nina's transformation caused her to want to rip out the throat of her niece and when Connor came back it was as "The Destroyer." Nina is ready to be eaten and Connor is ready to be blown up. Angel returns Nina to her loving family and he gives Connor one.

Of course Angel thinks he is going to hell. Buffy died to protect her sister/daughter. Then she got to go to heaven. Darla died to give birth to Connor. Angel would have killed him. All the ghosts that haunted Spike were representative of Angel's relationship with Connor. The man cutting his hand wouldn't have been able to hold onto him as Holtz stole him. The woman without arms that wanted to be held would have been Angel desperately trying to reconnect with Connor after he came back, but because he compensated for his own issue with his father, he was unable to. The woman with glass in her eye that cut Spike is an Angel that is unable to see what is going on because he is blinded by what is going on with Cordy and even lashes out at Connor because of this. Then we get lawyer ghost who is indifferent to Spike. Angel as CEO of Wolfram and Hart who no longer has a son.

Spike is being dragged to hell in order to satiate its appetite for another. Spike is Angel's shadow, his unconscious. In his unconscious, Angel is being punished because of what he was willing to do to Connor. He is accepting full responsibility for that, even though it is Holtz (represented by Pavayne) that is the one that is responsible.

Angel has been disconnected from his ability to read people for quite some time. He only seems to have this trait as Angelus. If he had exercised it, he would have seen what was going on with Connor earlier. Angel's party is trying to save others and in his undead state, he does try to be "The Life of the Party." You can't save the world 24-7. The demon with the human mask was Connor.

That is the cliff notes version. I could be reading things that aren't there or the whole season could be one big love letter to Masq so far. Whatever it is, it is setting up the next episode for something big.

At the ends of each episode seem to be the seeds of Angel's redemption for each issue. I look forward to seeing them all tied together at some point.

Replies:

[> Re: The Father will kill the Son (spoilers up to 5.07) -- JM, 17:29:25 11/13/03 Thu

Really interesting stuff. Don't agree that everything is through Angel, but definitely agree with one point. Angel is having to deal with the realization that he would have killed Connor if ir was recovered. He caused it, he would have fixed it. What he did instead, the results remain to be seen.

Also think the Nina paralell was great. Good eye.

[> [> Thanks -- Lunasea, 04:49:22 11/14/03 Fri

Don't agree that everything is through Angel

When we dream or tell stories, all the characters are representations of us. Angel (and Buffy) being the central character and the focus of the story is the character striving for Individuation. The other characters and their stories illustrate this somehow. We are only one person. We just divide that person and this dissociation makes our stories. Not only does the hero have a thousand faces, but within the story so does the author.

At least that is one theory.

[> [> [> Re: Thanks -- JM, 17:54:07 11/14/03 Fri

Didn't mean to negate it totally. I think you are right that the characters as mirrors, refractions, of the main character is one of the functions they perform. I just think, that because of the initial structure of the show, where Angel was intended to just help the damsel/issue move forward, that sometimes it's actually the opposite.

Sometimes the focus is the ensemble, and Angel is the mirror/symbol in the secondary character's exploration.

But that may have more to do with my story telling preferences than what's on screen:-)

Like I said before (in my mangled typing -- injured hand), I really liked the points you brought up. It's important to explore what's going on in Angel's psyche, because he doesn't articulate it, but it's deep and important this season. Especially as everyone else is, on a certain level, living the life of his puppets. Must be a crushing, lonely responsibility. No wonder he's growly.

Ultimate Drew Goes Down the Wrong Rabbit Hole (spoilers for "Lineage") -- cjl, 08:27:44 11/13/03 Thu

First thought in my head after the episode: it should have been called "Linear." After Jeff Bell's metaphorical, metanarrative, and multi-culti symbolic richness in 5.6, we get a straight-forward action plot in 5.7, and it's Drew Goddard's weakest script ever. Not that any episode focusing on Our Man Stubble, Alexis Denisof, is ever going to be a total loss--AD is just too good an actor. But Goddard makes a big mistake by laying down the foundation for a solid character conflict--Angel's instinctive distrust of Wesley--and then veers off in an entirely different direction.

After the John Woo/Miami Vice-style warehouse shoot-out (more on that later), we come out of the credits with Wes on the carpet, and Angel chewing him up and then spitting him out. After Wes leaves, Eve does that brand-new dance that's sweeping the nation, the Exposition, and hits all the major plot points for Angel and the uninitiated: Wesley stole your son because he thought he was doing the right thing, you still resent him for it, and you can't trust a man with three-day stubble because he's conflicted and a bad-ass and Alexis is getting more fan mail than you are.

[Side rant: OK, it's official. I can't stand watching Susannah Thompson as Eve. She's so completely miscast as the seductive W&H liaison/devil-on-Angel's-shoulder, it's embarrassing. She's got the intellectual manipulation down, but she simply doesn't have the mature, erotic presence necessary for the role. I hear Joss originally wanted Monica Baccarin (Inara from Firefly) as Eve; I can only imagine how much more interesting Eve's scenes would have been with Ms. Baccarin draped attractively across Angel's desk....]

Clunkiness aside, this scene sets up a juicy, multiple-level dilemma for Angel for the rest of the episode: can he trust Wesley to remain loyal to the team, no matter what the circumstances? In this case, Angel literally knows Wesley better than Wesley knows himself; Angel knows Wes screwed him over when Wes thought the greater good was more important than Angel's wishes, even if Wes doesn't remember doing it! Neat, huh? So, how does this play out during the episode?

Well, it doesn't. Not really.

Of the three key Wes relationships explored during the ep-- Wes/Angel, Wes/Fred, and Wes/Roger--Goddard only fully develops two out of the three. The sub-plot with Roger (well-played by one of my all-time favorite character actors, Roy Dotrice) is a given--but Drew pins his hopes on the Wes/Fred relationship as the emotional hook of the story, and it just doesn't work.

Honestly, folks, didn't we go through all this in "Billy"? With Fred (and Wes' Dad) as the catalyst for the emergence of his dark side? With Wes pushing away Fred at the end of the episode, so she wouldn't get hurt? The Wes/Fred flirtation has long played itself out, and a repeat of the Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle of Season 3, with Knox in the Gunn role, doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Maybe this romantic claptrap is all good for the newbies, but I was hoping Drew Goddard could come up with something a bit more satisfying for the long-timers. I wanted the attack on W&H and Roger's involvement to subtly jack up Angel's paranoia factor about Wes. At the end of the ep, rather than make lame jokes about "hey, I killed my dad, too!", I wanted Angel to be concerned that if Wes was capable of emptying a clip into his father when the stakes were high enough, then Wes could do the same to any authority figure who stood in the way of what he thought was right--Angel included. IMO, a missed opportunity.

Other notes:

-- Spike was a mixed big this week. Liked the confrontation with the Rogerbot, but the Head Boy jokes and the robot sex material seemed forced. Marsters needed to underplay both scenes.

-- Is it just me, or does anybody else think the cyberninjas should have been played for laughs? I swear, when ME does this kind of B-movie material, they should just acknowledge that it's pure pulp cheesiness, and go all the way.

-- On the other hand, the ninjas did give Wes a chance to torture somebody without too many ethical quandaries, and I always enjoy a spot of torture on this show. (Go, Wes! Give that sword another twist! Yeah, baby!)

-- The warehouse opener was beyond cliche.

OVERALL: AD was riveting as always, and I'm always grateful for Wesley-centric eps. But this is, by all measures, a disappointment. 6.5 out of 10.

Replies:

[> Re: Ultimate Drew Goes Down the Wrong Rabbit Hole (spoilers for "Lineage") -- Claudia, 08:54:47 11/13/03 Thu

I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about "Lineage". Alexis Denisof was excellent, as usual. But the establishment of Wes' relationships with Angel and Fred came off as heavy-handed (and oh God, will his infatuation with Fred ever end?), but I did enjoy his interaction with his dad (or fake dad), played by Roy Doctrice. After seeing what Wyndham-Price Senior was really like, I can understand why Wes has "Daddy issues". On the whole, the whole cyborg plotline seemed . . . unreal. Especially for a Horror/Fantasy show. What was up with that anyway?

Other observations:

-Eve certainly bared her claws in this episode. However, Sarah Thompson's scene with James Marsters was a lot better than the one with David Boreanaz.

-At first, I thought that the episode's writer was unexperienced in writing Spike's character, because he was really off in this episode (aside from rescuing Gunn and the little talk with Eve in the elevator). Imagine my surprise when I discovered that BtVS veteran, Drew Goddard, wrote this episode. Dude, what happened?

-Wes remembers his affair with Lilah? How could that be? If doesn't remember Connor, how could he have remember the Wes/Lilah romance?

[> Re: Cyborgs -- crunchy or cheesy? -- punkinpuss, 09:33:20 11/13/03 Thu

"-- Is it just me, or does anybody else think the cyberninjas should have been played for laughs? I swear, when ME does this kind of B-movie material, they should just acknowledge that it's pure pulp cheesiness, and go all the way.--CJL"

Hmm, I thought they were pretty cool. And I immediately thought (okay, later that night) of "El Diablo Robotico" from TCToNC. Cheesy, yes, but also crunchy. Parallels to Angel as disheartened hero going through the motions (why do I always sing that?), more mask symbolism, ooh, and now a self-destruct thingymabob or symbol, too. So, we get cool action figures AND layered symbolism. Not bad.

Cheesy but with metaphorical substance. Okay, maybe it's a cheese strata.

punkinpuss

[> [> I wear the cheese. The cheese does not wear me :-) -- Lunasea, 09:47:14 11/13/03 Thu

[> Completely disagree... ("Lineage" spoiler, unspoiled spec, Spiderman movie spoiler) -- Rob, 10:40:07 11/13/03 Thu

First thought in my head after the episode: it should have been called "Linear." After Jeff Bell's metaphorical, metanarrative, and multi-culti symbolic richness in 5.6, we get a straight-forward action plot in 5.7, and it's Drew Goddard's weakest script ever.

I thought, besides a few clunky moments, that the script was fantastic, much stronger than his last effort, "Dirty Girls," which did not have as solid a central focus, so despite some moments of brilliance came off a bit uneven (for example, the first half was almost exclusively about Faith's return, but then in the second half she was almost completely unimportant). I loved the intra-series continuity, a great deal of the humor, and the fact that he wrote what essentially could have been a cop-out ending, but succeeded due to the fact that Wesley was just as disturbed by killing the robot that looked like his father as if he had killed his real father, did not let himself off the hook when the others did, and in the end has the same horrible relationship with his dad that he always did, confirming that the idea of his father treating him the way he did in this episode was not far-fetched or OOC for the man at all.

After Wes leaves, Eve does that brand-new dance that's sweeping the nation, the Exposition, and hits all the major plot points for Angel and the uninitiated: Wesley stole your son because he thought he was doing the right thing, you still resent him for it, and you can't trust a man with three-day stubble because he's conflicted and a bad-ass and Alexis is getting more fan mail than you are.

I actually appreciated this a great deal, not because we needed exposition, but because they were talking about pre-Season 5 events! That's always a great source of comfort for me, since it makes it clear that ME is not starting from Square One, completely sweeping all of the past events under the rug. And it gives me hope that we'll get some real information about the mindwipe soon.

At the end of the ep, rather than make lame jokes about "hey, I killed my dad, too!", I wanted Angel to be concerned that if Wes was capable of emptying a clip into his father when the stakes were high enough, then Wes could do the same to any authority figure who stood in the way of what he thought was right--Angel included. IMO, a missed opportunity.

Disagree here too. I think the important thing to Angel here was that Wes was able to kill his own father to protect Fred, just as he hopes Wes would be able to do to him were he ever to turn back to Angelus. It reaffirms for him that Wes, in the end, does the right thing in saving his friends, even when the enemy who is harming them wears the face of a friend or family member. It also helps him understand Wes' decision to kidnap Connor all the more, particuarly when he sees how distraught Wes is by his decision, despite the fact that it was for the greater good. By extension, Angel can see how truly remorseful Wes was for his kidnapping of Connor, also. On the whole, I'm actually most happy that this episode was really about Wes, not exclusively Wes-as-a-symbol-for-a-part-of-Angel's-psyche, although that was there a bit too, particularly in the reversal of the "father will kill the son" prophecy.

Honestly, folks, didn't we go through all this in "Billy"? With Fred (and Wes' Dad) as the catalyst for the emergence of his dark side? With Wes pushing away Fred at the end of the episode, so she wouldn't get hurt?

Yes, but at this juncture of the story, I think it is important for us to go through it again. As with Angel last week, this is a reaffirmation of Wes' character. Sometimes with reaffirmation, things are repeated, but there is a central difference...the "Billy" situation was about Wes fearing his own darkness within that could lead him to hurt Fred. In this episode, Wes fears the darkness within that could lead him to hurt others to protect Fred. There is a progression there. In the first case, he is in a similar situation to Xander in "Hell's Bells"; in the second, his situation is similar to that of Peter Parker and Mary Jane. Peter worries that being his g/f will make Mary Jane a target to others. In the case of the film version, where Mary Jane is dating Harry Osborn, Peter's best friend and son of the Green Goblin, who he killed, his love for Mary Jane might end up putting her in danger in the second film (unspoiled, but it isn't inconceivable that Harry might try to hurt Mary Jane to lure Peter out, once he discovers that he killed his father). Either way, we see a deeper fear here in Wes, of the morally amibiguous lengths he might go to in order to protect his friends...mayhaps we see more foreshadowing here of a possible future discovery on Wes' part of previous morally ambiguous lengths he's gone to in order to protect his friends, of which his mind has been wiped clean. Hmmmmm.

All in all, this was one of the best episodes of the season, IMO, but then I've been ravenous for a good ol' Wesley-centric episode all season. My current ranking is:

The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
Lineage
Conviction
Hellbound
Just Rewards
Unleashed
Life of the Party

Rob

[> [> Has the issue of trust truly been resolved? -- cjl, 11:07:23 11/13/03 Thu

"I think the important thing to Angel here was that Wes was able to kill his own father to protect Fred, just as he hopes Wes would be able to do to him were he ever to turn back to Angelus."

Wesley's willingness to kill Angelus (if he had to) is a given. Angel should have no doubts about that. Wes proved it last season, when he practically ordered Faith to take them both out when Angelus was holding Wes hostage. The question raised by "Loyalty," "Sleep Tight," and at the start of "Lineage" is (and always has been): Would Wes be willing to betray, or even kill ANGEL if the circumstances called for it?

And the answer, of course, is YES.

The doubts raised by Eve with her Clunky Expository Dialogue aren't a re-hashing of events two seasons past with no relevance to Season 5. They're a dagger to Angel's dried-up gnarly-ass beef jerky heart, and central to his current relationship to Wes--and by extension, the rest of the Fang Gang. Eve is telling Angel: "Look--he betrayed you once before, because he thought you were dangerous to the boy and to yourself. He stabbed you in the back because he didn't think you knew what was best for your own son."

The implication should have been clear to Angel: Who says history won't repeat itself here? Who says that when Wes finds out about the mindwipe and the conditions of the deal with W&H, he won't go off again and decide YOU'RE the threat? And make no mistake about it, I think Angel is s****ing bricks about that happening--mainly because he's not so sure Wesley would be wrong this time, either.

So how does "Lineage" and Wes emptying a clip into Roger allay Angel's fears? If anything, it should drive Angel into a near-paranoid frenzy....

[> [> [> Re: Has the issue of trust truly been resolved? -- Rob, 11:31:32 11/13/03 Thu

So how does "Lineage" and Wes emptying a clip into Roger allay Angel's fears? If anything, it should drive Angel into a near-paranoid frenzy....

It might be a case of something not fully sinking in yet. At the moment, Angel is glad Wes saved Fred's life and feels a bond with him over the killing of the father. It may take a little while, once he mulls it over to realize the more disturbing implications of the action and what they could mean to him in particular. He may just not have grasped the big picture yet.

Rob

[> [> [> [> That's what bothers me about this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage") -- cjl, 11:59:10 11/13/03 Thu

Angel's been nothing but "big picture" all year. He sees the spider-web that is Wolfram and Hart. He sees himself and the Fang Gang caught in the spider-web, and it depresses the hell out of him. He sees that their struggles in the web are making it vibrate, summoning the spider. He just doesn't see the spider yet--and that's driving him more than a little nuts.

And if Broody Boy wasn't "big picture" about Wes before the episode started, he had UC Santa Cruz Chippie whispering over his shoulder, reminding him in detail. So how did we get from that Angel/Wes post-credits scene, so pregnant with dread and paranoia, to the feel-good "he killed his daddy, so I can depend on him" ending?

I think Drew Goddard missed the big picture, not Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what bothers me about this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage") -- JM, 17:12:18 11/13/03 Thu

I'm with Rob, I think this was a really good exploration of the issues. Eve didn't quite get it, what was bothering Angel. He doesn't mistrust Wes, because he's a ticking time bomb of betrayal, but because he doesn't understand how Wes comes to his (expensive) moral decisions. We know that he's forgiven Wes, as much as humanly possible, as far back "Deep Down" hallucinations. But does he trust him? Can he forget as well as forgive? Of course not.

What changes is that this time Angel, totally passive, doesn't just see the result of the moral calculus. This time he sees the work behind the result, and it's enough. Knowing that although they, Angel and Wes, may not agree on the sacrifce ends entails, they agree on those morals. And now Angle finally knows something that's terribly important to Angel's emotive and individualistic code. Wes doesn't make these decisions from a cold, disinterested, utilitarian perspective. He makes this decisions when the most important people in his life are involved. And he makes them just as quickly, ruthlessly, and finally.

I don't think that Angel suddenly trusts Wes, he just finally gets him. And understanding him is a big step forward for that relationshiop. Angel is finally letting go of the steady side-kick of "Awakening" and accepting the man we met in "Loyalty"/"Sleep Tight" even if he may never agree with him. Or possibly absolve him. He still loves him.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what bothers me about this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage") -- Malandanza, 08:47:52 11/14/03 Fri

"And if Broody Boy wasn't "big picture" about Wes before the episode started, he had UC Santa Cruz Chippie whispering over his shoulder, reminding him in detail. So how did we get from that Angel/Wes post-credits scene, so pregnant with dread and paranoia, to the feel-good "he killed his daddy, so I can depend on him" ending?"

I did find it odd that Angel was so worried about Wesley's tendency to sacrifice others for what Wesley believes is the a good cause at the start and after an episode that would seem to reinforce Angel's foreboding, Angel had flipped about 180 degrees to decide it was a good thing that Wesley makes the "hard" decisions.

We had Wesley using Fred for his sting operation. We had the cyberninjas committing evil acts for the greater good. A visit from a false, but eerily realistic, watcher. We had Wesley torturing a cyborg to get information (I was unclear on whether the cyborgs were part human, as the name suggests, or all machine, built with the capability of feeling pain). And we had Wesley shooting the man he believed was his father when a fairly easy alternative was available -- smashing the orb (the cyborgs worked for the good guys -- they would have been unlikely to kill Fred out of spite) -- by shooting his false father, he risked three lives -- the cyborg father's life, Fred's life, and his own. Nothing Wesley did justifies the sudden reversal in Angel's thoughts.

What I found intriguing about the episode is that Wesley seems to realize what he's been doing. His willingness to sacrifice others (that appalled Gunn in Pylea, when Gunn realized not only was Wesley sending a group of people they didn't know to certain death to provide a distraction, but he was willing to have Angel killed or lost -- as Angelus -- in the challenge with Gru for another distraction) is something he finally recognizes as morally dubious. It'll be in interesting to see if the writers keep Wesley's new uncertainty or revert back to General Price -- maybe he'll even fail to make sacrifices, or fail to act, at some point in the future with bad results.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Long time, no see, Mal! Chewing on your comments: -- cjl, 09:48:21 11/14/03 Fri

"I did find it odd that Angel was so worried about Wesley's tendency to sacrifice others for what Wesley believes is the a good cause at the start and after an episode that would seem to reinforce Angel's foreboding, Angel had flipped about 180 degrees to decide it was a good thing that Wesley makes the 'hard' decisions."

JM (above) and many of the others posters seem to think that Wes proved to Angel he's dedicated to protecting the Fang Gang, and he's removed Angel's doubts about his motivations. Given the ending of the episode, with Angel and Wes all buddy-buddy again, their interpretation fits the script like the proverbial glove. But I was baffled by Angel's reaction, because I saw Wesley's "dedication" to doing what's right--no matter what the cost--as a direct threat to Captain Mindwipe, and there's no way in your nearest hell dimension Angel could have missed that.

"Nothing Wesley did justifies the sudden reversal i