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Indiana Jones and the Crus-raiders of the Temple of Perpetual Doom (Destiny Spoilers) -- Anneth, 10:51:31 11/20/03 Thu

Indiana Jones and the Crus-raiders of the Temple of Perpetual Doom

(All BtVS, AtS, and Indiana Jones quotes from memory)

An episode of AtS from last season, Release, was manifestly a rip-off of Raiders of the Lost Arc, Stephen Spielberg's and George Lucas' great action-adventure light-show cum movie-serial homage.

And Destiny? I believe it was an homage to, and rip-off of, Raiders' great sequel, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

In Crusade, our hero and great adventurer, Indy, along with his estranged father, Henry, must battle the forces of evil - the Nazis, an evil philanthropist, and a traitorous woman whom they've both loved (physically) - for the Holy Grail. For Henry, the quest is the quest of a lifetime; he's a Grail specialist and has devoted his entire existence to finding the Grail. Indi, however, is a grail dilettante; he's initially only after the Grail to keep "the armies of darkness [from] march[ing] all over the earth." (Indy's an archeologist, true, but though he respects the power of his mystical discoveries, he's still essentially a glorified treasure-hunter. What differentiates him from, say, Lara Croft, is that he donates his finds to museums, not private collectors.)

Angel/us and Spike have a similarly tortured history; they seem to have begun as buddies, even brothers. It's been pointed out elsewhere (I believe by Shadowkat) that this relationship seems genuine on both parts until Spike begins talking about Dru as his destiny, in Destiny. At this point, Angelus retreats into the shadows, and it appears to be later that night that Spike finds Angelus 'marking his territory' by having sex with Dru. Thus begins their rivalry and estrangement.

Cut to many years later. Angel, ensouled for many years, leaves Sunnydale and moves to LA, eventually opening his own business as a helper of the help-/hopeless. He's drawn to a scroll in Wolfram & Hart's archives, and when Wes eventually translates it, learns of the Shanshu prophecy - essentially, there'll be a big battle, and some champion, an ensouled vampire, will play a major role and be rewarded with human life.

The Shanshu prophecy immediately becomes a kind of vampire Holy Grail, and something for Angel to believe in and aim for. He's become, in essence, a kind of Shanshu specialist - he may not have a Shanshu diary, but the idea of the prophecy seems to have been a great motivator for him. He devotes his life's energy towards becoming that ensouled champion, as Henry devotes his life to the search for the Holy Grail.

But, as Henry literally loses his way by being kidnapped, so does Angel figuratively lose his way, and walk off the path of true belief. A painful past and difficult decisions leave Angel questioning his faith.

Along comes the unrepentant prodigal son, crashing in guns-ablazin' to set the father back on the path. Spike, like Indiana Jones, is young, brash, aggressive, assertive, and independent. He glories in fame and adventure. Indy chooses storms a castle to rescue his father from the bad guys, while Spike is resurrected within the castle. The bond between Henry and Indy is blood while that between Spike and Angel is manufactured (the amulet curse that binds Spike to Wolfram & Hart has the defacto effect of binding him to Angel), but the bonds are similarly inextricable. Henry talks Indy into helping him with his quest for the Grail - they must find it before the Nazis, who will use its power for evil - while the Shanshu prophecy is (apparently) accidentally mentioned to Spike, but the result is that both pairs of men are motivated to continue the quest.

Adventures and misunderstandings ensue. Henry and Indy learn that they've slept with the same woman. The audience finally receives confirmation of what they've suspected for years, that Angelus and Spike also slept with the same woman. Henry and Indy must decide why they seek the Grail - for personal gain or for something greater?

Henry finally receives what he asked for at the beginning of the movie: "May he who illuminated this illuminate me." (At the movie's denouement, Indy asks Henry what he found, and Henry replies "illumination.") Indy, by Crusade's closing credits, had gained a father - all the love and trust he felt he was missing, and had resented Henry for keeping from him. Angel and Spike will also, I suspect, be forced to reevaluate why they seek the reward the prophecy promises - personal gain (Buffy?) or something greater.

In Crusade, the drinking from the Grail offers perpetual life (at a price; one cannot pass beyond a certain point within the Grail's fortress). For Spike and Angel, the prophecy offers exactly the opposite - a human lifetime, and eventual death. In Crusade, drinking from the wrong cup brings immediate torment and icky death. In Desinty, a cup is finally offered - a Macguffin to determine which of the two ensouled vampires is the one spoken of in the prophecy; a cheat-sheet for learning who will be a champion and become human. And both men want it.

Spike, despite being recently made corporeal, still hankers for humanity. Angel, though recently professing not to believe in the prophecy, seems to have returned to 'the true path' and also hungers for his reward. The two race to the desert and fight each other to bloody pulps - and against all odds, Spike appears to win. Angel warns him that his motives aren't pure, a fact Spike readily agrees with, but disregards. In Crusade, after meeting the three tests of faith (kneel before God, walk in the footsteps of God, trust in God), Indy and the two bad guys are presented with an array of gorgeous cups to chose from; the evil philanthropist, Brody, is given the wrong cup by the morally-ambiguous femme fatal, Elsha, and drinks his way to torment and death. Indy and Elsha then search among the wondrous golden, bejeweled cups to find 'the cup of a carpenter' - a modest thing, in no way bedecked with beauties. In Destiny, Spike drinks - after agreeing that the cup is "too shiny" (or whatever he says) to meet his expectations -and realizes they've been gipped.

All this season, Spike has been set up as some sort of troublesome younger brother or son to Angel - this was particularly obvious in Lineage, where Spike engaged in typical 'annoying child' tricks like making lame jokes ("Head. Boy.") and breaking things, but has been manifest all season. Spike hangs around unnecessarily, interjects annoying, useless comments during times of crisis and of reprieve, and generally makes a nuisance of himself. Anyone who's had a close relationship with a younger person can relate to Angel's aggravation. But there's something deeper between Angel and Spike - they both have a sense of mythos, a desire for eternity, and a deep-seated wish to screw each other. (And I mean that in the Darla-to-Lindsey sense - ambiguously.) They appear to initially have had a good relationship, and have taken pleasure in each other's company. Angelus appeared to have resented Spike's intrusion into his roost ("there's another rooster in the henhouse..."), and seems to have had sex with Dru to assert his dominance over Spike. (For all Angelus' protestation about lack of ownership among the 'family,' one wonders how he'd have reacted if he'd found Spike having sex with Darla.) So, the parallel between Henry/Indy and Angel/Spike seems to hold true - they have a sort of father-son relationship, and a sort of fraternity, made stronger by the fact that they now both desire the same thing - to Shanshu in LA. And, like Angel and Spike, Henry and Indy are both attracted to myth.

Destiny is only the beginning of the quest for our boys. If this season is to be a Crusade-esque adventure for Angel and Spike, then they're going to have to beat their relationship to death several times over, reevaluate why they desire to Shanshu, and learn that the reward isn't in the physical realm (humanity, Buffy, or the Grail) but in the realm of the psychological - the bond between people. They need to learn to trust each other, to believe in each other, to be willing to learn from each other. Their conversation about poetry and Barry Manilow was, I believe, only a temporary reprieve, similar to Henry's and Indy's conversation on the blimp in Crusade. There, Henry and Indy do little more than antagonize each other; their only meaningful conversation is a few sentences right before the action picks up again. They still had a long road to travel - much like Angel and Spike.


A last couple of thoughts:

The burden and the cross: Angel, before Spike drinks, warns him about the burden the cup's promise imposes. Earlier in the fight, Angel had put his hand on a cross, and yanked it away in pain, finally opting to kick it at Spike. Soon after, Spike picks the cross up and holds it as a weapon against Angel despite the pain it must cause him. This is clearly meant to parallel with their introductions to each other, when Angelus forces Spike's hand into the sunlight, and Spike yelps, then Angelus holds his own fist in the sunlight. Angelus seems to accept Spike as a compatriot when Spike emulates him and then 'beats' him, by holding his own open-spread (so more exposed surface area) hand to the sunlight. But perhaps it's also meant to parallel that scene in Beneath You, where Spike melodramatically drapes himself over a large cross, symbolizing his late understanding of the burden he'd chosen in regaining his soul. Yes, Angel knows burden, but so does Spike.

Time turns kittens into cats: Usually, ME makes puppy references ("ice cream and puppies" "we're rolling in puppies" "oh, puppy!" "I'm more of a dog-person"), but last night, Drusilla (herself usually a puppy-person; recall all her growling and yipping of yore) talked about kittens. At first, I was annoyed and distracted, because kittens are so rarely mentioned by ME (kitten poker and the loan-shark's quote, from Tabula Rasa, above, are examples of only a few such references). But then I started thinking about it - maybe it is meaningful. After all, the 'big power' at Wolfram & Hart these days is a panther or jaguar, referred to by the characters as "the big cat." Furthermore, there have been panther/jaguar statutes in the background of this season twice that I can recall, once in Life of the Party and once last night, in Destiny. So, maybe Dru's kitten comment does mean something...

Lindsey! Lindsey, Lindsey, Lindsey!


[> Good points! -- Ponygirl, 12:28:17 11/20/03 Thu

I think you've hit on the real key here - why do either one of them want the prophecy? For Spike it seems to be about self-worth and validation, while for Angel its about entitlement and suffering.

[> Slight Emendation -- Anneth, 23:35:45 11/20/03 Thu

The Raiders rip-off/homage ep was Awakenings or Long Day's Journey, (it's late; I'm tired and can't remember which), not Release. Sorry! ;)

[> Re: Indiana Jones and the Crus-raiders of the Temple of Perpetual Doom (Destiny Spoilers) -- Rufus, 03:17:14 11/21/03 Fri

I remember for Indiana's father the Grail wasn't a prize but illumination......kinda goes with Spike's line about the cup being goldy.

[> Interesting post. Parallel to Awakenings (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- s'kat, 22:15:20 11/21/03 Fri

Oh - not to quibble, but I know for a fact that the episode that ripped off Raider's of The Lost Arc was Awakenings.
Now, I'm going to explain to you why it's important.

Awakenings is the dream Angel has before losing his soul.
The entire episode is literally a dream sequence, and it's a happy dream - in fact it's a dream conjured by a shaman so that Angel will lose his soul. In the very next episode, Soulless, Angelus makes a crack to Wes about Angel watching Raiders one to many times, or that being his favorite fantasy. In Awakenings, we learn that Angel's fantasy is to be the Indiana Jones character saving the day. He sees himself as Indiana Jones and in some ways he's like that character - the bad father relationship, no real mother on the premises, a band of male friends who help him, a female sidekick who brings him clues. Also in the dream, Connor, Wes, Cordelia are all wrong and he forgives them after they apologize to him. Gunn and Fred are on the periphery. Angel restores the world order, gets the girl, bonds with his son, then loses his soul when he sleeps with Cordy. After doing all that - he still isn't redeemed. Same with Indy in Raiders - the Arc of the Covenant is laws only, it doesn't provide enlightment, only destruction and fear, it's very old testament. In Awakenings - the world is on the verge of destruction, like Indy, Angel must sacrifice himself, because when the Beast opens - sunlight pours forth into the world and will destroy all present (in the dream). He tries to send Connor away, but Connor refuses and helps him almost getting killed. Angel kills the Beast and sunlight doesn't burn them, the sun comes back. This is all metaphor of course for what's going on in S4 - S4 is all about order and balance. And what happens when you have complete chaos - the beast, or complete order - Jasmine. Angelus - prince of chaos - destroys the Beast, while it takes both Angel and Connor to stop Jasmine. The Ra-tet - who keep the world in balance along with W&H keepers of balance and law are destroyed. When Jasmine is destroyed, W&H and their conduit return and offer Angel a devil's bargain - he can restore order to his son's life and give his son peace by removing him, if he takes over W&H LA Office. HE also gets an amulet which like the Arc of the Covenant in Raiders - burns up anything that is impure or evil in it's path. The last scene in Chosen is reminscent of Raiders of the Lost Arc's last scene.

(Release was the episode where Angelus bites a drugged Faith. And yes, I know, I remember way too much of this crap. ;-)

This season on ATS we are in Holy Grail territory. We've moved from the old testament's eye for an eye, do we have free choice - which the Arc of Convenant (keeper of the ten commandments or laws) is the symbol of - in ATS the symbol may be the Ratet, the amulet, and W&H?, to the new testament's Holy Grail which is the symbol for all the themes of the new testament: forgiveness, redemption, compassion, healing, and rebirth/illumination. In ATS this is the Shanshu Prophecy and the Cup of Perpetual Torment.

Spike and Angel are an odd pair. I don't believe either understands what the cup means. And I don't believe Spike
sees it as a prize, like you suggest. Spike remember burned to a cinder saving the world, relived that burning when he came out of the amulet, got pulled to hell, and has spent the last few months incorporeal - when Angel tells him it's a burden, Spike knows what he's talking about, possibly more than Angel can concieve. Just as Indiana in Holy Grail understood the burden.

I also think, knowing ME and how they love to use more than one metaphor to tell a tale and never focus on just one, that it's not just the movie they are referencing here.
Just as those who think we are about to have a replaying of
Wagner's Parsifal will be disappointed, so will anyone who thinks it will be Henry/Indy's journey all over again. Don't get me wrong - I think we'll see elements from both.
Actually, I'm spoiled enough to know we'll see elements from both but with deliciously ambiguous noirish twists.
There's another film reference that I should mention here - one I picked up from Rosalind on Angel's Soul Board, which echoes another episode of Ats - Waiting in The Rings. The film is Coppelia - it's about a magician who puts a spell on a dancer and manipulates her like a puppet forcing her to dance to his tune. According to Rosalind the scene where
Angelus holds Dru in front of William is very similar to a scene from that old film. Almost the same staging in fact.
So is Angel similar to the magician in how he attempts to control the actions of those around him? Is Angelus in how he attempted to direct the actions of Dru and Spike, failing with Spike - who is all about Will?

Lots of interesting thematic references here. (If you think metaphorically in the least, are a film or opera buff, then you're going to have a blast with this episode. If not?
You (speaking generally here - no one in particular) probably missed half the references and can't understand why people loved it.

Great post Anneth. I agree with much of what you wrote above and thanks for the cite.

[> [> Oh Addendum... -- s'kat, 22:25:28 11/21/03 Fri

Hope you don't mind, but I reposted your essay on Angel After Spike under my Metaphors thread, because you do a wonderful job of expanding on my Indiana Jones and The Holy Grail Reference.

[> [> [> of course I don't mind - honored, actually! -- Anneth, 10:25:50 11/24/03 Mon

A lot of questions [AtS 5.8 Destiny spoilers and speculation] -- Ames, 11:02:51 11/20/03 Thu

Regarding Eve:

Seems like there's 3 possibilities for her:

a) She's doing everything on behalf of the Senior Partners
b) She's a complete fake, with no connection to the Senior Partners at all
c) She's a double agent, fooling the Senior Partners along with everyone else

But there's a lot of open questions in any case:

- How do we know that the Senior Partners are still around? Maybe Jasmine wiped them out. All the Fang Gang know for sure is what Lilah and Eve have told them. Who knows who/what Gunn has been talking to in the White Room?

- If the Senior Partners are still around, but Eve is not their rep, how could she keep them from finding out? That seems unlikely. They must have their own back-channels into W&H.

- If Eve is a rep of the Senior Partners, but she's playing her own game on the side (maybe with Lindsey), it's a very dangerous game. What could her motive possibly be? Is she secretly on the side of good? A different faction in the Powers? Is she in it for love? Or something else personal?

Regarding the Shanshu problem:

- If Eve (and/or Lindsey) was somehow responsible for faking the effects following Spike's re-corporealization, then she (and/or Lindsey) must have been behind the package that arrived for Spike too. Otherwise she would have been caught by surprise like everyone else, and couldn't have instantly faked the effects. But if Eve isn't responsible, then what explanation is there other than the one that was given?

- It seems only logical that the same party who sent Spike's package is responsible for the package containing the amulet. If that was Eve (and/or Lindsey), how did they get their hands on it? The amulet was produced by Lilah in the first place, and seemed to be a gambit of the Senior Partners. Was Lilah in on the whole scheme?

- It appears from the fake cup that someone is trying to be misleading, but aside from Serk (sp?), who else is involved? If Eve is involved, then everything else she said would seem to be suspect too. But now that the link to the Senior Partners has been restored, wouldn't she be in trouble if she were somehow responsible? Or has it been restored? We have only her word so far.

Regarding Lindsey:

- Is it him? All we know is that he's corporeal, so not the First Evil.

- The symbols on the walls and the door and his body make it seem like they're intended to hide or protect him, but from whom or what? The Senior Partners?

- Is he working with Eve? Or manipulating her? Or is it the other way around - maybe she's his only information conduit, and she's misleading him.

- What could his motive be? Good, evil or personal? Nothing seems obvious.

So, it seems like we need a lot more information on possible motives to begin evaluating the suspects!


[> Re: A lot of questions [AtS 5.8 Destiny spoilers and speculation] -- Abracapocus, 15:32:10 11/20/03 Thu

Ames, my head is buzzing over the details in "Destiny", too. Altho I tho't it was rather lame for Angel & Spike to have a "cool" fight over who gets to save the world, instead of actually, like, *trying* to save the world. Plus the "here's how they really feel about each other and why" nature of their dialog felt forced to me: a writerly exercise that could have been done more subtly but got done this way because they needed to do some quick character exposition. But that's probably just me.

That said: I have to add a couple logical possibilities to some of your conclusions.

Regarding the Shanshu problem:

- If Eve (and/or Lindsey) was somehow responsible for faking the effects following Spike's re-corporealization, then she (and/or Lindsey) must have been behind the package that arrived for Spike too.

I think it's safe to conclude that Lindsay/Eve were at least aware of the recorporealizing package, if not responsible for it. Why would we assume the effects were faked, though? Doesn't it make sense for there to be some drastic consequences when you yank somebody into the physical plane out of an artificial spiritual captivity?

Otherwise she would have been caught by surprise like everyone else, and couldn't have instantly faked the effects. But if Eve isn't responsible, then what explanation is there other than the one that was given?

Any number of explanations. Electrical discharge from corporealizing Spike; spiritual discharge from same. Magic can do anything the writers want it to. :) I don't think we have good reason to assume that these effects were manufactured, although they might have been exaggerated, or manipulated into the forms we saw.

- It seems only logical that the same party who sent Spike's package is responsible for the package containing the amulet.

Oh, it could be even more interesting than that. :) Doesn't it seem likely that more than one player would be interested in the conundrum of the two vampire champions with souls? That different parties could be strategizing against or alongside each other? And that there would be "wild cards" out there (say, like a strangely be-symboled Lindsay, and the mysterious Eve) who could just be in it to keep everyone else off balance, or keep anyone else from getting what they want out of the situation?

I think the writers have a *lot* of lee-way for what happens next. There's also a good chance that they're still figuring out the details themselves. :)

- It appears from the fake cup that someone is trying to be misleading, but aside from Serk (sp?), who else is involved? If Eve is involved, then everything else she said would seem to be suspect too.

Number one, I thought it was odd that both Angel & Spike assumed that the first cup-like thing they saw was *the* cup of the prophecy. The whole "fat lady singing" bit in Serk's translation does seem to be a clue that it really was bogus, altho prophecies are slippery enough (metaphorical language, multiple layers of time and intent) that you can never be certain. But still: why was that supposed to be the Cup? And why would they assume the effects would be instant, for that matter?

All that aside, though: from what Eve said it seems likely that the jaunt to Nevada was indeed a ploy to get our boys out of the way, hopefully with the result that one or both of them would end up dust. She didn't seem too upset about it, though. I'm still wondering if Lindsay & Eve's role isn't just to keep everyone else off target, with no specific direct goal (kinda like The First, who in most cases didn't worry about details--"I can work with that"--so long as mayhem ensued).

Finally, I think the whole point of the big reveal at the end of the episode is that we really can't believe anything Eve says. She was successful (or nearly so) in softening both Fred and Gunn towards her--and I think the next scene with Lindsay was intended to remind us that she is possibly the wildest card in the deck right now (which we kinda knew from her first scene in 5.1, but still). She is clearly working from motives we don't know yet, and working for people or for a cause that we don't know yet, either.

I hope we don't have too many weeks to wait for the next instalment. And I don't expect to know too many answers very soon, either (or ever, if Buffy S7 is any indications of what can happen with story elements when the writers are pressed for time--Beljoxa's eye, anyone?).

Thanks for bringing all of this up, Ames! One of the many reasons to love the Buffyverse is all the rich stuff it gives us to puzzle at.


[> [> Re: A lot of questions [AtS 5.8 Destiny spoilers and speculation] -- aperitis, 16:16:14 11/20/03 Thu

what was wrong with beljoxa's eye?

[> [> [> Re: "what was wrong with beljoxa's eye?" -- Abracapocus, 10:59:54 11/21/03 Fri

aperitis wanted to know what I meant with my Beljoxa's eye reference. What I meant was:

In the S7 Buffy episode "Showtime", Giles and Anya consult a magical being called Beljoxa's Eye to learn more about The First and how to defeat it. Beljoxa's Eye tells them that a disruption in the mystical forces surrounding the Chosen One has given The First the opportunity to make this attempt to extinguish the Slayer line. When Giles asks what caused this disruption, the Eye answers: "The Slayer." The episode does not reveal anything else the Eye said; the next thing we see in connection with this sub-plot is Anya interpreting the Eye to mean that Buffy's resurrection is the problem: she should still be dead. Giles doesn't look so sure.

This extremely intriguing bit of information was never addressed again. To our knowledge, neither Giles nor Anya shared the Eye's words with the rest of the group (which is pretty surprising, for Anya especially not to just blurt it out at some point). No further reference was ever made to the idea of a disruption in the forces surrounding the Slayer, or that the cause was The Slayer herself (whether "The Slayer" meant a re-animated Buffy, or the simple fact of two Slayers existing at once).

That's all I meant: ME might introduce some pretty significant details, like this Cup, and we can't expect a guarantee that those details will be worked out onscreen. Sometimes storytelling plans change, or storylines get waylaid by external exigencies (like all the changes behind the scenes during S7 as ideas for a possible S8 or spinoff series were developed and discarded).

So, personally, I just don't want to get too attached to making sense of all the details, since ME might not have time to get to them. They do a *much* better job at continuity and storytelling logic than almost any other show you can name (::cough--X-Files-cough::), but still--who knows where they'll decide to take things? Or what details might get glossed over or left at the wayside?

I just wanted to use Belojoxa's Eye as an example of that principle.

At far too much length,

[> [> [> [> My pet theory regarding Beljoxa's Eye... (Careful, it may bite.) -- Ixchel, 17:31:05 11/21/03 Fri

My wacky idea:

The Slayer line disruption, that left an opening for The First, is the activation of all the potentials.

I realize that this theory has complete disregard for linear causality, but I thought that, maybe, for The First time/space aren't like they are in the regular world.

Maybe, for beings like The First/Jasmine/TPTB?/SP?, outside of this reality, perception of time/space is very different?

Well, I said it was wacky.

OTOH, if anyone else thought of it too, it's not wacky, just *eccentric*.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: My pet theory regarding Beljoxa's Eye... (Careful, it may bite.) -- Rob, 10:16:05 11/22/03 Sat

That's what I thought...The First knowing that the breaking-open of the Slayer line was a possibility (through prophecy, or actual ability to see the future) tried to seize the opportunity to stop Buffy before it could happen, the same way it attempted to get Willow to kill herself in CwDP. Think about it...she ended up being crucial to the "weakening" of the Slayer line. Therefore, the mystical bonds around the Slayer line being weak because "she lives" means not that they weakened because Buffy was brought back to life, but that the fact that she is alive (and what she will do in the near future) will break the Slayer line. And it does. But in a good way. :o)


[> [> [> [> [> [> What can I say, Rob? Great minds think alike. ;) -- Ixchel, 17:04:47 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> I thought the real cup was...[AtS 5.8 Destiny spoilers and speculation] -- sloan, 23:21:07 11/20/03 Thu

- It appears from the fake cup that someone is trying to be misleading, but aside from Serk (sp?), who else is involved? If Eve is involved, then everything else she said would seem to be suspect too.

Number one, I thought it was odd that both Angel & Spike assumed that the first cup-like thing they saw was *the* cup of the prophecy. The whole "fat lady singing" bit in Serk's translation does seem to be a clue that it really was bogus, altho prophecies are slippery enough (metaphorical language, multiple layers of time and intent) that you can never be certain. But still: why was that supposed to be the Cup? And why would they assume the effects would be instant, for that matter?

Yeah, I actually thought that the "Cup" was the one that Spike snatched from Angel right after he was re-corporealized. Total mislead...well it misled me at least.

[> [> Re: A lot of questions [AtS 5.8 Destiny spoilers and speculation] -- anom, 18:54:13 11/25/03 Tue

"Altho I tho't it was rather lame for Angel & Spike to have a 'cool' fight over who gets to save the world, instead of actually, like, *trying* to save the world."

Yup--really good point. Violence, what a way to show how worthy, um, one of them is.

"Plus the 'here's how they really feel about each other and why' nature of their dialog felt forced to me: a writerly exercise that could have been done more subtly but got done this way because they needed to do some quick character exposition. But that's probably just me."

No it's not. And I didn't think the fight was so cool, either. (Hey, look at 'em pound each other! Now they're taunting each other! Oh yeah, bring Buffy into it why don'tcha? And in the most degrading terms, 'cause that shows just how much you both love her! Now they're fighting w/clangy metal bars! >gasp< A stake! That means it's seeeerious! Oooh, now they're going into vamp face! "I'm nothing like you"--wait, is this another of those this-is-really-how-I-feel-about-myself fights? 'cause why would Angelus the soulless reveller in evil need there to be someone more disgusting than himself?) Plus it went on way too long. Oh, & if "whoever drinks from the cup is the one who was meant to," then what's to fight over? If the wrong one tried, wouldn't something else prevent him from drinking? Oh again, & if only 1 of them can drink, then why is there a problem w/the existence of 2 souled vampire champions? That whole concept makes no sense, & I really hope it's just part of the scam.

"The whole 'fat lady singing' bit in Serk's translation does seem to be a clue that it really was bogus, altho prophecies are slippery enough (metaphorical language, multiple layers of time and intent) that you can never be certain."

The 1st clue was that no sooner does Sirk (sp. that way in the captioning) dismiss the translation as no more useful than a 12-year-old's book report than he tells the group about some "newly translated" verses!...which he proceeds to read out of a book (what happened to scrolls?) that contains plenty more verses before & after them. So what made these verses any harder to translate than the others? The content doesn't sound like anything that would have been troublesome--roots, cup, columns, fat lady--hardly obscure concepts. Was "the fat lady will sing no more" supposed to mean that it won't be over--the world won't end--or that she's already sung & it is over?

I did like the simplicity of Spike's solidification (although it's really not credible that he wouldn't notice till he walked into a door--ever have a nerve block, or even novocaine? You can really tell the difference btwn. being able to feel & not being able to. Spike, who's so into the realm of the senses, enhanced vampire senses yet, would've realized what happened as soon as he felt air on his skin, or at least w/the 1st impact of his foot on the floor.) A heavy box that's empty after a flash, which does something we were told required nuclear-level evil to power it. I like it. I'm not sure whether I hope they explain it or not. Well, OK--I'm thinking mass-energy conversion, very focused so as not to destroy greater LA. But I'd think the backwash would be enough to account for both the electrical glitches & the eye-bleeding wackoness.

This episode practically screamed metaphor. All right, spoke it in a voice dripping w/contempt. An otherwise very listenable voice, one I wouldn't mind hearing for an extended time...mmm...oh, um, yeah--metaphor. Scenes of the boys' contention over Drusilla intercut w/the fight to get to the cup. Does that mean Drusilla is a metaphor for the cup? For perpetual torment (I could see that one)? Or is it just that they're both something Spike & Angel think they want & fight over w/out realizing what she/it really is?

I liked the ending too. Plot against the Senior Partners, ho-kay! Wild card indeed, name of Lindsey. No idea what he wants or where this might go. Cool.

"I hope we don't have too many weeks to wait for the next instalment."

I'll second that. All in favor?

question about Angel 5.8 (spoilers) -- aperitis, 12:07:20 11/20/03 Thu

did lindsey even know about spike? and his relationship with angel? or the fact that he was incinerated in sunnydale? what would he have to gain by bringing spike into the fold? i dont understand what a rivalry between spike and angel would do to help lindsey with whatever he is scheming? which we dont even know what hes scheming yet


[> Re: question about Angel 5.8 (spoilers) -- Mighty Mouse, 12:46:42 11/20/03 Thu

Most likely something that will be revealed in the episodes to come. I think right now all we have is the shock value of Lindsey's return. Hey ... is that a full hand he has?!

[> [> Re: question about Angel 5.8 (spoilers) -- ingrid, 16:24:09 11/20/03 Thu

Possibly, just maybe, Lindsey probed Darla with questions (among other things) about Angel. After all, Darla was brought back to be his weapon in project "Kill Angel". While Lindsey may have learned a lot about Angelus from Darla, the senior partners and Holland also had an encyclopedic knowledge of Angelus and his former gang. Giles in BtVS S2 had an entire book devoted to famous vampires, in which he found out info about the exploits of Dru, Spike and Darla. Surely anyone, if they knew where to look, could have done quite a bit of research on Angel/Angelus.

BTW, who else wants to see a Gunn centered ep soon? I gotta know what conversations he is having with the big cat. And what exactly was the *deal* he struck? And what, exactly, will the big cosmic undertow pull from him?

Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- Sheri, 15:23:20 11/20/03 Thu

I was positive it was going to be Lilah. And that the reason Eve strikes us as being all dressed up in big sister's clothes.... is cause she *really* is trying to emulate Lilah.

But, hey, naked Lindsey? Yeah. I can live with that.


[> Please don't answer in the subject line... (spoilers 5.8) -- Masq, 15:34:19 11/20/03 Thu

It had better be the REAL Lindsey, or I want my money back!

[> [> Re: Please don't answer in the subject line... (spoilers 5.8) -- tam, 15:59:52 11/20/03 Thu

what was with all the tatoos? evil? or protective? what do you think?

[> [> [> My guess (spoilers 5.8) -- Masq, 16:13:54 11/20/03 Thu

I've only watched the ep once so far, but my take is that they were protective. If you're pulling one over on the Senior Partners, you had best well protect your ass with strong magic.

[> [> [> [> That was my take on it too. -- OnM, 16:48:11 11/20/03 Thu

The fact that they were both on the walls of the room and on Lindsey's body, my guess was that they act as a shield of some kind that blocks mystical spying methods.

The large number of runes on Lindsey's body also clearly suggests that he is the mastermind behind whatever plan the two of them are hatching/have hatched. I didn't notice any runes on Eve's body, although we didn't get to see enough of her to tell. If she's wearing similar designs, did Angel wonder about them during their encounter in Life of the Party? Or will the subject come up later?

Of course, if Eve really is a front for the SP, wearing a protective inscription of any kind might be unwise.

One thickening plot, shaken, not stirred!


[> [> [> [> Re: My guess (spoilers 5.8) -- skeeve, 09:31:30 11/21/03 Fri

We didn't get to see whether that part of him was protected.

[> [> [> Re: Please don't answer in the subject line... (spoilers 5.8) -- Talia, 23:01:47 11/21/03 Fri

I wondered if the tatoos might not be to enhance his magical powers, enabling him to do things like make a box of bang to recorporealize Spike.

In the question of who I thought she was talking to, I was thinking Wesley. For a second at the very beginning, before she got too far into the speech, I was even speculating that it might be Angel, which in retrospect made no sense, but he's the one she's undressed for before.

[> [> Re: They wouldn't do that, would they? (spoilers 5.8) -- Ames, 16:00:25 11/20/03 Thu

It's one thing to re-use an actor the way they did Ken the demon from Anne in Bachelor Party - that was bad enough. But for the character not to be Lindsey, that would be too much.

[> [> Oops, sorry for not thinking to put a warning! -- Sheri, 21:05:40 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Please don't answer in the subject line... (spoilers 5.8) -- CTH, 09:26:35 11/23/03 Sun

De-lurking here.

Masq - Why do you thnk it wouldn't be Lindsey?

[> I wanted it to be... -- monsieurxander, 16:55:30 11/20/03 Thu

Drusilla. Up until the very last second. But naked Lindsay was nice.

[> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- Rob, 17:22:42 11/20/03 Thu

I actually thought it was going to be Wesley, since we hadn't seen him earlier on in the episode.


[> [> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- jane, 18:11:22 11/20/03 Thu

I honestly didn't have a clue! For a second, thought it might be Wes, but never crossed my mind that it would be Lindsay. Naked,yummy Lindsay...

[> [> [> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- Athena, 18:24:31 11/20/03 Thu

I was thinking from anywhere from Lilah, to Wesley, to Gunn. Though at first glance, I thought it was Groo (I know, I know, completely unlikely).

[> [> [> [> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- CTH, 09:31:18 11/23/03 Sun

De-lurking cause this is really fun. The whole time I'm thinking Wesley because of Eve's betrayal line from 'Lineage'. My wife thought it was Groo for a minute and was pretty embarassed to admit she even considered the possibility. For a brief moment, I thought Connor which would probably have been the only thing that freaked me out more than what actually happened.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for sending me to a really scary visual place! -- Masq, 14:36:04 11/26/03 Wed

For a brief moment, I thought Connor which would probably have been the only thing that freaked me out more than what actually happened.

Eve and Connor in bed together. But after thinking about it for a couple of seconds, it would have been a nice vengeance-y twist on Connor's dad.

[> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- skeeve, 09:33:04 11/21/03 Fri

My first thought was the cat.
I wonder how the furry one is doing.

[> [> Ooooh, kinky... yet intriguing... yet............... KINKY! -- Sheri, 14:30:20 11/21/03 Fri

[> [> I'm an idiot; Which cat are you talking about? -- DorianQ, 20:10:18 11/21/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: I'm an idiot; Which cat are you talking about? -- Rob, 20:45:31 11/21/03 Fri

Long, sleek, black-furred dude.

Has a thang for Gunn.

Hangs out in the white room at W&H. ;o)


[> [> [> [> Duh! Like I said, I'm an idiot. (For a second, I thought Miss Kitty Fantastico had returned!) -- DorianQ, 21:32:17 11/21/03 Fri

[> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- Singed Cat, 20:59:51 11/23/03 Sun

Funny you should ask. I was sitting there a the edge of my seat thinking, "please don't be Wesley, please don't be Wesley, ohplease ohplease ohplease..."

I have such a preoccupation....

[> Re: Poll: Who did you think Eve was talking to at the end of Destiny? (spoilerish for Destiny) -- RadiusRS, 00:53:47 11/24/03 Mon

I think without a doubt it WAS Lindsey, and with all the spec about what those tatoos and symbols meant, I think Magical Protection is right on the money. In an earlier post, I speculated about the two references made to Holland Manners this season, first in "Conviction" by Friese when he states he preferred the way W&H was run when Holland Manners was in charge, and the in "TCToNC", when we see on the business card that the man who recruited Numero Cinco into W&H was Manners. Sneaky, brilliant ME!! Foreshadowing not Holland's return but his protege's!! Now Eve has shown that she wasn't affected by the mindwipe (or appears not to have been affected) by mentioning Wes' betrayal, Connor, et al. What if Lindsey has been protected from Magic since at least early season 4? It would explain why he wasn't killed by the Beast, who according to Lilah eliminated everyone connected to the L.A. office of Wolfram & Hart (at the time I thought it was a convenient way for ME to kill him off offscreen in case they couldn't get the actor back); it would explain why he was immune to the effects of the mindwipe; and it might also explain why neither Lorne nor Angel has been able to detect him from Eve. Perhaps he is just as important to W&H's Apocalypse as Angel, as it was repeated in many of the episodes concerning him how he was being groomed for greatness by the Senior Partners and why they let him get away with so many betrayals. As far as the Shanshu prophecy, it seems to me it has been a red herring for the season so far, keeping Angel and the gang occupied busy while the others (Lindsey, Eve & ?) work their behind the scenes agenda. I don't think it will actually come into play until the show has finished its run and I believe the Cup of Torment thing was just a fabrication and has no real relevance to the Shanshu prophecy (nice of them to brink back Serk from "Home" though as the week's ex-Watcher!). I like a theory in another post (sorry, it's late and I can't remember who said it!) that the Senior Partners might want to save humanity to keep in business, and here comes Lindsey to throw a wrench in their gears (I always thought he got away too easy, maybe they killed his family or something and he's out for revenge?). One more thing...Eve says "throwing the universe out of whack? Not as fun as it sounds." Seems to me that Linds and Eve are definitely playing for keeps seeing the deadly violence caused by their manipulations, which I think clearly puts them in a Not Quite Good Guys category.

"Too drunk to" -- Katrina, 15:36:27 11/20/03 Thu

I haven't seen last night's episode yet, except for a two-second clip, so I can't read any of the discussion...I'm told it's one I don't want to spoiled for! So sorry if this has been mentioned. But did anyone else recognize the Dead Kennedys tune Spike was listening to, and which was humorously cut off before it got to the part they couldn't exactly play on prime time tv? LOL, as they say on the posting boards...

I may have my doubts about Spike, but not about his excellent musical taste!


[> Yes I did - with lyrics R rated -- Ann, 17:25:08 11/20/03 Thu

I wasn't quite sure what Dead Kennedy's song it was but it was wonderful to hear music that more correctly represents Spike's soul. His anger, passion and might I say disregard for society. The sex pistols comparisons didn't quite cut it I thought - He was not like Sid Vicious who was a bit of a unenergetic drug user who only got any energy from drugs.

Spike never took his pants off with Harmony so maybe he was too "drunk" on being corporeal again to actually &*(#%&. The dk's (as we refered to them) were anachist group of the mid-80's with very confrontational, political hard core lyrics. Jello Biafra ran for mayor I believe in San Francisco. I saw them in Detroit in 83 and it was quite the energetic experience to say the least. Talk about bringing back fond memories. One of their more infamous songs.

Lyrics of To Drunk to F--k

Went to a party
I danced all night
I drank 16 beers
And I started up a fight
But now I'm jaded
You're out of luck
I'm rolling down the stairs
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk
To f--k
I'm too drunk, too drunk, too drunk
To f--k

I like your stories
I like your gun
Shooting out cop tires
Sounds like loads and loads of fun
But in my room
Wish you were dead
You ball like the baby
In Eraserhead

Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk
To f--k
It's all I need right now
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk to f--k
Too drunk
To f--k
I'm sick soft gooey and cold
Too drunk to f--k

I'm about to drop
My head's a mess
The only salvation is I'll never see you again
You give me head
It makes it worse
Take out your fuckin' retainer
Put it in your purse

Too drunk to f--k
You're too drunk to f--k
Too drunk To f--k
It's all I need right now
Oh baby I'm melting like an ice cream bar
Oh baby
And now I got diarrhea
Too drunk to f--k Yeah, Yeah

did anyone else catch that eve line? -- aperitis, 17:05:36 11/20/03 Thu

remember when she was getting undressed (hard to forget) at the end of destiny...she said "by the way, spike didn't "kill" angel"...she emphasized the word "kill"... and the way she said it sounded to me like eve and lindsey meant for spike to kill angel during their battle... what do u think?


[> Re: did anyone else catch that eve line? -- luvthistle1, 20:41:40 11/20/03 Thu

I think you are right. this reminds me of what Dru said in fools for love:

"The king of cups expects a picnic, but this is not his birthday." Last season "Angelus" sang "teddy bear Picnic". If you listen to the song, it take a eerie tone, as the word "picnic" can also be reference to "kill/slaughter"

therefore, Eve wanted Spike to kill Angel, ( or Angel to kill spike) although they ( eve) knew it was not their birthday (shanshu)

[> [> Ooooh! NICE interpretation! -- Sheri, 21:25:31 11/20/03 Thu

[> spoiler in both above -- tam, 20:43:10 11/20/03 Thu

What is it with earthquakes from the 30's? (Spoilers 5.8) -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:36:05 11/20/03 Thu

This is the third time a site of (supposedly) mystical events was ruined/buried by an earthquake during the 1930's. The Master's church, Willow's Satanic temple, and now Angel's opera house. Granted, the latter wasn't actually mystical, but it makes ya wonder: were there just lots of earthquakes in the 1930's, is it coincidence, or do one or more of the ME writers have some connection to a 30's era earthquake?

Sorry, I tend to obsess over these little patterns, like the thrice asserted non-existence of leprechauns.


[> Re: What is it with earthquakes from the 30's? (Spoilers 5.8) -- rock-head, 23:39:24 11/20/03 Thu

There was a large earthquake (magnitude 6.4) in Long Beach in 1933. It was comparable to the 1994 Northridge quake. Not the "big one", but very damaging nonetheless. You can read about it at the following address.

The last "great" earthquake in Southern California occurred in 1857. Death Valley is also the site of earthquakes. I am not aware of any big quakes centered there, but small earthquakes are frequent. However, in California it generally takes at least a 5.0 to make news. Earthquakes have been felt just about everywhere in the state.

Of course, historical accuracy is not necessarily important to the story.

[> [> Sunnydale locations could both be from the same quake -- Ray, 02:23:33 11/21/03 Fri

[> The interesting thing (Spoilers 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 07:56:06 11/21/03 Fri

When Angel mentioned the 1938 earthquake he also said something along the lines of "it made the papers in LA." Suggests that Angel made it to LA a lot earlier than I had thought.

[> Geographically challenged -- tomfool, 08:41:08 11/21/03 Fri

Another slip that stuck out to me (and my inner geologist) was the location of the opera house - Death Valley. Sirk (sp?) says 'It's in Nevada' then instantly says 'Death Valley to be exact.' Angel then identifies the opera house as being in Death Valley. For all practical purposes, Death Valley is in California. It's true that a very small mountainous portion of the National Park is in Nevada (maybe 2%), but the actual 'valley' is entirely in California. I wonder if they did this on purpose or whether it was just a slip. Pretty minor but stuck way out to an old desert rat.

TNT Angel (5.8 spoiler) -- Cheryl, 19:46:03 11/20/03 Thu

Next Tuesday TNT should be airing Dead End, if you want to see how things ended with Angel and Lindsey in Season 2.


[> thanks! -- Nino, 21:29:53 11/20/03 Thu

I just rewatched "Five By Five"/"Sanctuary"...that's when Lindsey first showed up. Not really on topic...but why is it that everyone likes this pair better then "This Year's Girl"/"Who Are You?"...I thought Faith's "Buffy" stint was much more creative.

[> [> Re: thanks! -- Cheryl, 22:13:57 11/20/03 Thu

I just rewatched "Five By Five"/"Sanctuary"...that's when Lindsey first showed up. Not really on topic...but why is it that everyone likes this pair better then "This Year's Girl"/"Who Are You?"...I thought Faith's "Buffy" stint was much more creative.

I never thought of one pair being better than the other, but there was definitely a lot more Faith character development on Angel than Buffy. That was the turning point for Faith, where she hit rock bottom and made the decision to change. On Buffy, however, she's the one who started the downfall of Buffy & Riley.

Lindsey was in the very first Angel episode, "City of." He was the lawyer for Russell Winters, who tried to kill Cordelia.

[> [> Re: thanks! -- CW, 06:38:14 11/21/03 Fri

In "Who are you?" Eliza's part as Buffy is actually fairly nondescript. Generally, the part makes her look too passive as Buffy, who at least in those days was prety excitable. SMG as Faith in Buffy was great, of course. I think most of us like the Angel eps of this 'set' better because the smotional depth is that much greater. I certainly wouldn't deny that it was all set up by the genuine quality of the Buffy eps.

[> [> Re: thanks! -- Kenny, 12:17:42 11/21/03 Fri

Both pairs of shows were high points of the season. Part of it may be that the Angel pair gave as a crossover with Angel, Buffy, and Faith in the same ep. And it has a really cool helicoptor scence. Wes starts to become a badass. And it gave more of a sense of closure than the Buffy eps.

Personally, and I've been meaning to put together a write-up of this, I find "Sanctuary" to be an excellent episodde from a technical standpoint. The structure of the script is incredible. Once you get through the set-up of Angel bringing Faith in to help her, you have this build-up of forces set against Faith. Wolfram and Hart, Kate and the police, COW. One by one they're introduced, their motivations are clear, and these disparate organizations who would normally hate each other have one girl as a common goal. And as these separate forces mobilize, you have the spector of one person hanging over everything. She's mentioned, but she's never seen.

The attack by the assassin was just a ploy too get the audience into a bit of a lull. One threat down, they can handle this. But they haven't even had to process that before the spector manifests. Buffy enters, she's the catalyst, and the other camps converge. There's an ebb and flow to the events that beautiful.

Add to that some very unique interactions. Lindsay/Kate. Buffy/Kate. Wes/Watchers. Even a small bit of Wes/Buffy. And, on top of all of this, while the episodes purport to be about Faith and do an incredible job of progressing her story, it's still all about Angel and his mission. I don't know that Angel's ever shown as much clarity as he did in "Sanctuary". His duty was clear, and he'd fight anyone, even Buffy, because of it. While the Buffy episodes were more original,the Angel episodes were more emotionally powerful and, IMO, better crafted.

[> [> Re: thanks! -- Talia, 15:48:37 11/22/03 Sat

The Angel episodes show Faith's turn from darkness to light. Therefore, they are emotionally the most powerful. They also deepen the emotional connection between Faith and Angel, which I've always found fascinating. However, I like "Who are you" at least as much. It has a fair amount of emotional power (such as Faith's reaction to Riley's profession of love, or Faith beating up her own body), and it's also funny as all get out. (I'm thinking especially of Faith's practicing being Buffy in front of the mirror and her speech to Spike involving making him pop.) "This Year' Girl" doesn't really stick in my mind. It's just a lead in.

Tru Calling 1.4 (spoils yeah) with Buffy Alumni!! -- neaux, 04:35:17 11/21/03 Fri

Yeah another episode of Tru and Its becoming more and more tollerable!!

well it did help that they had Our old buddy FORREST from Buffy Season 4 on the show. So that's 1 actor out of the bunch!

I did like how there were 5 dead bodies in this episode who needed help. Unfortunately Tru was STILL able to help all five corpses. whatever.

but it turns out Tru had to make some choices and start choosing her adventures. She went to be the hero instead of looking for love. hard choices I know.

anyway, like I said, the show is becoming more bearable. If only she would hurry up and let Davis in on her secret the show might turn into a little Scrappie Doo show.


[> I agree -- CW, 06:12:45 11/21/03 Fri

But, she did say she hadn't met Mr. Hunk yet. There's a good chance he got that job and she may run into him again. Besides there are 6 chances out of 7 he's a loser anyway. ;o)

The best thing was although she picked the wrong person to suspect AGAIN, at least she did figure out how it was done fairly early.

It would be better if Tru had some life of her own. Cleaning up her brother's and her sister's disasters is getting a bit much. Tru knows Meredith is lying to her. She also must know the only way Meredith is going to pass a drug test is to cheat.

Speaking of cheating wasn't throwing the birthday party with lots of guests a bit much?

[> [> I forgot to mention the b-day party -- neaux, 07:30:06 11/21/03 Fri

yeah.. the surprise party was a little too much. Well it was alot too much. I suspend enough belief that Tru can actually do all the things she does in 1 day to save lives. The fact she has time to schedule a surprise birthday party with that many people is just Disturbing.

hell the producers might want us to believe she baked the Friggin' cake too!! XD

[> [> Re: I agree -- Cheryl, 07:31:52 11/21/03 Fri

Speaking of cheating wasn't throwing the birthday party with lots of guests a bit much?

That's what I was thinking, too. Where did she find the time to plan that?

The other thing I didn't like was the insulting (IMO) flashbacks like when she was replacing the liquor at the hotel. Why did they think they needed to add that flashback *telling* us what was already obvious?

But, overall, the show is defintely improving. And I was thrilled to see Forrest.

[> Re: Tru Calling 1.4 (spoils yeah) with Buffy Alumni!! -- skeeve, 09:24:16 11/21/03 Fri

Yeah, when Davis caught her with the emergency kits,
I had a moment of hope that Tru would say "Follow me."
She might have needed the help.
Getting the prospective corpses to take their medicine was non-trivial.

Now then, what did Tru tell the police?
Did the emergency kits get replenished?

[> I disagree -- Ames, 10:45:32 11/21/03 Fri

It's not getting better, it's getting worse. The chances of Tru being renewed are probably now approaching zero, so maybe further discussion is getting pointless, but here's just some of what was wrong with last night's episode:

- Tru jumps to (wrong) conclusions again with no particular justification
- Tru does illegal stuff which should have gotten her arrested several times, but there's no consequences (breaking into a hotel room, impersonating hotel staff at a party where wallets were stolen, stealing controlled drugs from work, being involved somehow in an attempted murder)
- Buys a bunch of expensive replacement alcohol just in case the party stock is poisoned, presumably out of her own pocket on a morgue assistant's wages. How likely is that!

It's like they're skipping quickly over plot details that make no sense because they can't be bothered to fix them.

As well as being poorly written, it's now getting boring and repetitive. Let's have some changes here, some exploration of the possibilities (and not just trivial stuff like 5 bodies instead of one that made no real difference, or getting a too-cute boyfriend).

How about:

1. Brother or sister come in dead and ask for help

2. Brother or sister come in dead, but some other dead person asks for help and she can't save both

3. Someone who should stay dead asks for help

4. Tru finds out she's going to die, and has a chance to prevent it on a day she repeats.

5. One of the dead people gives her a message different from "Help me"

6. Tru fails to help the dead person who asks. Does she repeat again?

7. Tru gets arrested (as she should have been several times already) and can't help the person who asked because she's in jail.

8. Tru gets fired for being gone all the time, or stealing supplies, or just talking to the dead.

9. There's some other unconnected major disaster on a day that Tru repeats, and she doesn't know how to warn people or prevent it. Can she live with it?

10. A dead person asks for help, but the day doesn't repeat right away. What's wrong?

11. Boss finds out what's going on, big confrontation that doesn't go well, but Tru repeats that day and has to decide whether to try again.

12. Person she's trying to help finds out what Tru is up to, but but it turns out that they don't want to change their fate (maybe for religious or personal reasons?). Does Tru let them go? Was the original request wrong somehow? Can she be sure it really came from that person?

etc etc etc

What's the matter with Tru's writers?

[> [> Some more possibilities . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:35:46 11/21/03 Fri

1. Tru's attempts to save someone are being thwarted by someone who turns back time in order to keep certain people dead.

2. Dead person died of a terminal disease, and Tru tries to figure out what she's really supposed to do, if anything.

3. Tru visits a crypt and has to help people who died decades, if not centuries, ago.

4. Tru uses her knowledge of the future to win lots of lotteries, and she comes under suspicion for rigging the games.

5. Something at the mourge distracts Tru and time turns back, but she doesn't know who she's supposed to save, and fails to find out again and again.

6. This wouldn't work unless this series got several more seasons, but Tru finds that she still ages on the day's she relives, giving her serious fears about growing old.

7. Some of the people Tru mst save died in a natural disaster, which is very difficult to save people from.

8. Tru gets discovered by a tabloid newspaper writer (OK, not that original, but it's something).

9. One of the dead people talks to Tru in German and is a John/Jane Doe, making it almost impossible for Tru to find him/her.

10. Tru, through some sort of meditation, gains greater control over her power and begins using it at will to solve every problem in her life, which eventually generates guilt over how she's disadvantaging others, or over distracting her from saving people.

Hmm, it's not that hard once you get into the groove of it.

[> [> [> Re: Some more possibilities . . . -- LeeAnn, 05:59:22 11/22/03 Sat

How about true remembers the lottery numbers and buys a ticket. Hey, if it was me I'd try to save the people but a lottery ticket wouldn't take but a couple of minutes.

Behold the Power of Spite - Angel 5.08 -- Dlgood, 09:09:03 11/21/03 Fri

Let's suppose that one of Spike's motivations for becoming what he is now - whatever one considers that to be - is Spite.

* William wants to show "frills and cuffs" crowd...

* William wants to show VampMum that he's more than just a limp sentimental fool

* To show Angelus that he really does have a destiny.

* To show Buffy (et al) he's not beneath her.

* To show 'that bitch' that he's not the man she thinks he is, after the bathroom confrontation.

* To show Angel that he doesn't have the patent on what a Vampire with a soul has to be.

and so on...

Well, lets say, for kicks and giggles, that Spite is one of (if not) his primary motivation to "go for the cup." What of that.

By way of metaphor, one of my very good friends in college was the #3 ranked player in Academic Competitions. Trivia. He achieved this ranking by working incredibly hard. And his primary motivator - spite. Namely, to Spite the college teammates who had repeatedly beaten him in high school. And to Spite the #1 player, who repeatedly beat him before.

It's not a noble motivation. It's not learning trivia for the love of knowledge. It's not saving lives because you generally care about the fate of the world or the people in it in the abstract. But no one can take the victories, trophies or accomplishments away from him.

If Shanshu is a "prize", does the prophecy really care. Does motive need to be pure or holy? Or does only production matter. In which case motive (what ever it is) is only important in as much as it serves productivity.

So, for the sake of argument. Let's say Spike is a tremendously petty bastard, and more than just a little naive. (Despite the rather obvious innuendo, he is Shocked! Shocked! to learn that Angelus and Dru like to boink each other) Beyond it being more fun if Spike is petty and self-aware of the fact, does it really matter?


[> It wasn't Sprite it was Mountain Dew -- Ponygirl, running away now, 09:28:33 11/21/03 Fri

[> [> And the actual ad campaign is "Behold, the power of cheese!" -- Rob (hiding behind ponygirl) ;o), 22:24:26 11/21/03 Fri

[> Re: Behold the Power of Spite - Angel 5.08 -- Lunasea, 10:38:12 11/21/03 Fri

If Shanshu is a metaphor, I would say it does matter.

Shanshu is mentioned, though not by name, first in IWRY.

Doyle: "I don't know. I thought the only way for you to be made mortal was if the Powers-That-Be stepped in."
Angel: "What, they could have done this? How come I keep getting the feeling that you're not telling me everything."
Doyle: "Because I'm not. We're both on a need to know basis here."

The Oracles support this:

Angel: "What's happened to me?"
Woman steps to one side of Angel: "It's true then, brother."
Man on Angel's other side: "He is no longer a warrior."
Angel: "It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that did this?"
Man: "The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"
Woman: "You faced a Mohra demon. Life goes on."

There is nothing wrong with working to better yourself or saving the world. The Powers-that-be are the ones that are supposed to make Angel (or Spike) mortal again because he saved humanity and averted the apocalypse. I would say seeing as they have been guiding Angel towards something, it matters to them.

Angel and Spike have one thing in common--they both believe in to thine ownself be true. To Spike that means being love's bitch. When he was resouled, no biggie. He continued to be love's bitch. Angel is figuring out what it means to be true to himself. When he is resouled, he tries to be what he thinks is true, but he can't anymore. He has to find what that now means. He develops an image of what this means and in doing so relies on the image and not the cause of that image.

The cause is the soul that forces him "to care." There is more to Shanshu than Angel saves the world and gets to be human. "Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed." After "Inside Out" I started a massive project in which I analyzed every vision Doyle and Cordy had. They weren't about Angel saving some poor schlub. They were about developing Angel's heart. He was being shaped, prepared for the task that was before him. After that task is his reward, Shanshu. It is a path, a path where his humanity is developed and finally symbolized by destroying the demon in him. He doesn't just become human, but he is no longer demon. I would say motive matters highly.

But no one can take the victories, trophies or accomplishments away from him.

But someone does, himself. When you win for the sake of winning, it is hollow and it feels hollow. The game becomes a vehicle to win. The journey is lost and one has to keep winning to feel a winner. Angel is looking at things that way now and he feels "disconnected." He didn't save Nina, but he is helping her. He is making a difference in her life. He doesn't see that any more than Buffy did in "Help."

Perhaps the prophecy doesn't care, but our hearts do. Why do you think Spike is so spiteful?

[> [> Here's a quandry . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:19:30 11/21/03 Fri

The prophecy says the vampire with a soul will become human. There's no doubt, no uncertainity in that statement. However, the prophecies are quite clearly ambiguous about whether he will save or destroy the world. Does this mean that Spike or Angel might become human and have their sins erased only after they destroy the world? Could the restoration of humanity be their reward for destroying human kind?

[> [> [> Not so puzzling -- Lunasea, 14:57:51 11/21/03 Fri

Why is the prophecy vague? Prophecies don't predict things so much as make them happen. In the case of Shanshu, who is being manipulated? Angel? The Senior Partners? The Senior Partners wouldn't be interested in him without that prophecy and without them as a foe, Angel wouldn't be the hero he is becoming. Without the prophecy, Wolfram and Hart would have dusted Angel a while ago. The PTBs have the power to turn Angel mortal. They have told this to Doyle and possibly even Whistler.

If the PTBs have the power, probably the Senior Partners do also. I would be surprised if the demon that gave Spike his soul wasn't attached to the Senior Partners in some way. If all the prophecy required was a vampire with a soul, the Senior Partners could have made their own, either as Spike was made or cursing some random vampire. Their interest is in Angel, the one who Lorne has read his destiny and it was taken away last season.

But there is more to the Scroll of Aberjian than Shanshu. The blind seer kids are also important, the ones whose power grows as they mature and can see into the heart of things. Angel felt an affinity to that scroll, a scroll that is HIS link to the PTBs. The Oracles are another link. It is they who refer to Angel as "not a lower being." There is much symbolism in "Blind Date" and "To Shanshu in LA" that gets left out of most discussions about Shanshu. It isn't just some plot device, but has deep thematic resonance in the series. Any discussion that drops this turns it just into some plot device. It could happen and after last season I won't rule out anything.

What symbolism is there to the Senior Partners rewarding Angel for destroying humanity? Become the species that you just destroyed? Might as well vamp Buffy while they are at it.

I thought it might be interesting if Angel for whatever reason ends up starting the Apocalypse. Then he realizes what he has done and fights on the side of good, his heart being important in some way. This would mirror his own journey from soullessness to souled. Perhaps that is why the prophecy is vague.

Who knows? It isn't just a story. It's a myth.

[> [> [> [> Just because something is thematic and symbolic doesn't mean it isn't a plot device -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:20:29 11/23/03 Sun

Technically, everything in a story is a plot device, as it is all designed to make some change or development of the plot. Whether it is used to create more action, to delve deep into philosophical issues, or resolve a continuity discrepency, it's still a plot device, and so it can be talked about in plot terms.

Here's what I must ask: assuming that the Scrolls of Aberjian are accurate predictions of the future (which is up for debate, considering that we don't know how much influence Jasmine has had over past events), then a vampire with a soul will become human after saving or destroying humanity/the world. Thing is, if it's so murky whether or not the souled vampire with save or destroy the world, but him becoming human is certain, than there must be a way that he can become human after destroying the world. So, either the Scroll of Aberjian is wrong in some respects, there really is no chance of the souled vampire destroying the world, or a situation will arise where the souled vampire will shanshu after causing world destruction. What I was wondering is if anyone's ever considered the last possibility, either in the real world or on the show.

[> [> [> [> [> Safe Assumptions -- Philistine, 21:05:44 11/23/03 Sun

Assuming that the Senior Partners aren't nice people, maybe they mean to do exactly that. Say Angel, or Spike, ends up throwing things their way at endgame. Then the SPs "reward" him by making him once again human and subjecting him to the same fate he decreed for the rest of humanity.

And here's an odd question: Do we actually know that the SPs are with the "destroy the world" faction? I've always assumed so, because it's always the bad guys who want to destroy the world, and the good guys who have to stop them. But maybe, since business as usual seems to suit the SPs just fine, they're the "keep it exactly as it is" party. There's the whole, "This world... functions because of us," and all that, and also: my understanding is that the Christian Apocalypse is supposed to be kicked off by God, for the purpose of cleansing the world of evil; and IIRC the Hindu epochal cycle begins/ends with the old world necessarily being destroyed to make way for the new. So maybe it's the PTBs who are going to be out to destroy the world in order to save it, and the SPs who will be trying to "save" the world in order to damn it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Safe Assumptions -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:52:52 11/24/03 Mon

It's difficult to say because we really can't trust anything that Wolfram & Hart says. However, we do know Holland Manners said, "We do have an apocalypse scheduled." Lilah has said, "No one's going to horn in on our apocalypse" and, "he (the Beast) wants the same things we want: fire, destruction, death." I think the reason the "keep the game playing" element came up was because the Senior Partners are in a position similar to the one Angel is in now. They want as much misery and death for the human race as possible, but, in order to do so, they have to spare some humans to serve as lawyers and have to take on some clients who are good, law abiding people. Like Angel, they have to make some compromises, it's just that they have to compromise their evil ambitions with having to do some good to keep the business going.

[> Re: Behold the Power of Spite - Angel 5.08 -- Malandanza, 19:29:34 11/21/03 Fri

"If Shanshu is a "prize", does the prophecy really care. Does motive need to be pure or holy? Or does only production matter. In which case motive (what ever it is) is only important in as much as it serves productivity.

"So, for the sake of argument. Let's say Spike is a tremendously petty bastard, and more than just a little naive. (Despite the rather obvious innuendo, he is Shocked! Shocked! to learn that Angelus and Dru like to boink each other) Beyond it being more fun if Spike is petty and self-aware of the fact, does it really matter?"

I'd say motive is more important than the act itself -- and I think AtS and BtVS support this view. Consider a certain ex-watcher who violated his friend's trust to steal an infant child (the only one Angel will ever have) and inadvertently turned that child over to Angel's most implacable enemy. The child grows up in a demon dimension hating his natural father, locks the father in a chest and dumps him in the ocean. Do we say, well, forget Wesley's motives -- look at the results: Angel effectively selling his soul to W&H to save the child whose life Wesley screwed up. Or do we say Wesley is responsible, certainly, but he meant well so should not be treated as though he had done this intentionally. Similarly with Willow (over the years there have been many instances of good intentions/bad results -- also a few bad intentions and even worse results) especially with the reensoulment of Angel, which was intended to save Angel, but ended up nearly destroying Buffy. Which is not to say that I think good intentions mean that any action is excusable, just that there's a reason we have different penalties for negligent homicide and first degree murder.

Perhaps a double standard is appropriate for good intentions/evil results vs bad intentions/good results, but I'm not sure I feel entirely comfortable calling Angelus a hero because he restored the sun (incidentally helping solve LA's vampire infestation) by killing the beast.

In any event, there's more to Shanshu than becoming human. Even in the fake prophecy (which Lindsay must have loved making up) there was a catch -- weight of the world, perpetual torment... who would you rather have bearing the burden, a dilettante like Spike or a professional martyr like Angel? Personally, I'd prefer Angel. I'd trust him more to see the prophecy to its completion than Spike, who might well lose interest partway through, especially if he had to suffer for the cause.

[> [> But Spike is a stubborn SOB --He'd see it through to the end (NT) -- Seven, 09:04:51 11/23/03 Sun

[> Re: Behold the Power of Spite - Angel 5.08 -- Rufus, 22:20:19 11/21/03 Fri

The Shan shu will go to the one who earns it.....or a best out of seven coin toss.

[> [> Aw, can't it be a good ole paper-scissors-rock smackdown? -- angel's nibblet, 00:50:35 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> Well that's the real question -- Ponygirl, 06:31:59 11/22/03 Sat

Who is deciding this? What power is determing who's worthy, who's finally done enough, and who's going to hell?

[> [> [> I believe his name is Joss Whedon -- Lunasea, 09:37:04 11/22/03 Sat

[> Definng 'spite' - and who is better? -- Singed Cat, 20:50:31 11/23/03 Sun

Hm-- All the things you give as examples of spite I lean more towards calling 'having something to prove'. Doing it for the sake of literally hurting someone else would be spite; doing it to "show" someone is insecurity and self-definition.

Spike does want to 'show them all', but not as much as he used to; he's a little more comfortable with himself now, though not so much so as to stop being fun. :) In fact he has less perhaps to 'prove' than Angel, who desperately suppresses and denies his extremely dark side with a shining knight, (and learns thereby). Spike's two 'sides' are far more integrated than Angel's, and no matter that he did it to impress a girl-- one might say that was the surface reason, but one way or the other, he was ready for what happened, and spent, to Angel's chagrin, only three weeks in a basement pulling himself together afterwards.

So they both have stuff to 'prove'. Which is a better hero, the one whose evil is suppressed, or the one who knows his evil and accepts it, subduing it thereby?

[> Re: Just remember, "mountain dew" also means "moonshine" (as in whiskey) -- leslie, 10:27:20 11/25/03 Tue

Spike, Fury, and Heroism (Destiny spoilers) -- Darby, 09:46:56 11/21/03 Fri

So what is a hero, anyway?

On the ME shows, it seems to be someone who sacrifices for others, without really expecting anything in return (Action is their reward).

And yet the word got tossed around a lot on Angel this week, as if it were almost synonymous with Champion, which seems to be more of a warrior for whatever is passing for "good" at a particular moment. Angel is a champion, as are the rest of AI, but Angel is the least heroic of them all. And Spike's champion status is questionable, but he's hardly a hero, and less so lately.

David Fury, who many here know has had tremendous problems with the idea of an unsouled vampire doing good work, has built a seditious episode where we are led to see that maybe neither of our souled vampires are particularly heroic, that the resident demons hold more sway, produce more of that id behavior, coupled with swollen egos, even with a human soul to subjugate it. Spike, particularly a sore point with Fury, was the lesser hero this week even if he triumphed, really only wanting the Cup because (a) Angel wanted it, and (b) he perceived that it led (ignoring the torment in between) to some sort of not-going-to-hell reward (which it probably wouldn't have, if it was legitimate, but that wasn't dwelt upon). Angel wanted the cup, but didn't fully explore other options, or suspect the obvious trap (I guess that if you work for Wolfram and Hart and really seem to be an arrogant, evil twit, no one will see you as...wait a minute...), because (a) Spike was going after it, and (b) he felt that the reward associated with the cup was something he had earned. We have watched Angel save the universe for the (apparent) sake of doing good before, but the motivations were murkier here.

I believe that the obvious problems - that neither vampire really wants to be human in the short-term, that being a "real boy" might hasten Spike's path to Hell, that Buffy might not want either of them as mere mortals - were purposely ignored in order to show us the perpetual adolescents that these creatures remain. Is that the Buffyverse mythology, or Fury's subtly-inserted but variant take?

Darby, scurrying back to writing another it-seemed-a-good-idea-at-the-time textbook-on-the-fly - and this damned class keeps almost catching up to me...


[> Going through the motions (Destiny spoilers) -- Lunasea, 10:52:40 11/21/03 Fri

I didn't see Angel as either wanting it because Spike wanted it (if anything he was trying to protect Spike from it) or wanting the reward at the end (since he doesn't really see it as a reward, but torment). He was going through the motions. Sirk does a number about how destiny has decided who was meant to drink. It is just a matter of doing it. Angel accepts his fate. He doesn't want it. He doesn't want anything. He doesn't even want to be left alone (like he did when Whistler approached him).

Spike is all those desires that Angel won't let himself have. As such Spike is no more heroic than Angel, but he is stronger. He is motivated to act. Spike is convinced that the prophecy is about him. Angel isn't any more. Angel doesn't even know what he is any more. Spike thinks he does. They are extremes, flip sides of the same coin.

A slayer, a hero needs to find a way to turn pain into strength. It will lead Angel to his gift, death. Only by tapping into his desires will Angel find that pain and then find the source of his strength. For now, Spike will get that.

[> [> Re: Going through the motions (Destiny spoilers) -- Claudia, 12:22:40 11/21/03 Fri

[I didn't see Angel as either wanting it because Spike wanted it (if anything he was trying to protect Spike from it) or wanting the reward at the end (since he doesn't really see it as a reward, but torment)]

I'm sorry, but I didn't see that . . . until the last minute. I agree with Darby that it seemed that BOTH VAMPS went after the cup for less than admirable reasons.

[> [> [> Re: Going through the motions (Destiny spoilers) -- Lunasea, 15:19:00 11/21/03 Fri

If it was there at the last moment, why didn't you see it all along? Did it just materialize from another dimension? Because Spike had bad motives, Angel must? I'm not saying that Angel had good motives. I'm saying he didn't have any really. That is how Spike served as his foil. Good motives are better than bad ones, but no motives lead to no action, just like no will immobilized Angel in "Lineage."

Angel is just playing a part on the stage of life. Why else do you think the two vampires were fighting in an opera house? Both have a flair for the dramatic. Spike has repeatedly called Angel a drama queen this season. What is more dramatic than an opera?

Something interesting to pay attention to is the position of the vampires in the fight as they say what lines. Who has the high ground? ME is rather adept as using spatial relations to show things.

[> [> [> [> The fight was Escher-like in its use of space! spoilers last epi. -- Ann, 15:31:30 11/21/03 Fri

The descriptions of the office as a Escher style space in previous threads reminded me that the opera house's space was used by S and A in the same way. They were all over the place and changed levels repeatedly.

[> [> [> [> the low ground (spoilers Angel 5.8) -- sdev, 19:04:52 11/21/03 Fri

Who has the high ground? ME is rather adept as using spatial relations to show things.

Well the Cup of Perpetual Despair was always situated at the lowest point. I guess that should have told us something about its value.

Angel Analogs in Wagner's Parsifal (Possible Big Spoilers!) -- red6sky, 13:28:05 11/21/03 Fri

If Season Five is a retelling of Wagner's Parsifal (as suggested by other's on this board), then the Angel analogs in Wagner's Parsifal could be

Grail - Shanshu

Amfortas, the King of the Grail - Angel
Knights of the Grail - Team Angel
Parsifal, the foolish innocent - Spike
Herzeleide, Parisfal's mother - Spike's mother
Gurnemanz - Wesley

Klingsor, the black magician - Lindsey
Kundry, the temptress - Eve

Having read an English summary of Parsifal, the opera's structure would suggest very promising things things for upcoming episodes including.

- Spike as the lead champion
- Spike absolving and atoning Angel
- Wesley forgiving Eve's actions.
- Lindsey's Defeat

Any thoughts?


[> Re: Angel Analogs in Wagner's Parsifal (Possible Big Spoilers!) -- DorianQ, 22:35:54 11/23/03 Sun

I haven't read the opera, but might it be more logical to say that Herzeleide would be Spike's Vampire mother Drusilla? No offense to the actress, but I would personally rather see Juliet Landau back than the actress who played Spike's birth mother. Drusilla would have more of an emotional impact for everyone, especially Angel. But like I said I haven't read the opera so there may be specific things that call for the birth mother.

Have they done this before with any other seasons. I vaguely recall someone saying that Season 4 was based on something too. What was it? And what about the first three seasons?

Gunn and Fred (Spoily bits about 5.9) -- Jaelvis, 15:17:31 11/21/03 Fri

Did anyone notice Fred's reaction when Gunn tried to explain what a nooner was? She seemed a little testy like someone who had a relationship with someone and who may have well engaged in a few nooners while in that relationship and is annoyed that the someone didn't remember it. She could have well added a comment like, "I think we both know what a nooner is." Or something similiar. That was the tone of her comment as I took it. So...does that mean they both remember their relationship? There was another moment this season that made me think they remember the relationship. I can't remember the episode but Angel and Gunn are in the lab and Fred is telling them one of her theories and Gunn smiles and says "Wicked smart" like he is proud of her and has fondness for her even though they aren't together anymore.

Maybe in this next episode where Harmony and the office workers are speculating about Fred's love life, they will bring up her past relationship with Gunn and then we'll know for sure if it is out in the open.

And speaking of Gunn, I want a Gunn-centered story ASAP. He has been way underused and ingnored. I figured now that he had the law in his brain, he would be doing more. But he seems to be overlooked just like in previous seasons. Maybe Electro-girl needs to come back. I'm sure there is more to his new law info than meets the eye and that will have to be addressed at some point. Okay, so maybe I'm a little impatient.

Also on the Gunn note, I'm liking Spike and Gunn's interactions. I hope they get to become buddies and do some fighting together. I think they have a lot in common in that respect. As Gunn said in Unleashed (I think), "It feels good to get my violence on."


[> Re: Gunn and Spike (Spoily bits about 5.9) -- Sgamer82, 18:25:21 11/21/03 Fri

I doubt Gunn and Spike can become real good buddies. Remember "That Old Gang of Mine?" Gunn revealed that he didn't consider Angel a real friend like Wesley or Cordelia or Fred, because when he sees Angel, a souled vamp genuinely guilty of his past, he sees only the vampire. He sets that aside because he knows Angel's a good person and he can do good with Angel. But that doesn't change his feelings.

So I doubt that will be much different with Spike, who shows no serious guilt of his past vamp behavior other than acknowledging it was horrible. Then again, a slight antagonism could still work out and make Gunn & Spike an interesting pair when together.

[> Re: Gunn and Fred (Spoily bits about 5.9) -- skeeve, 12:48:05 11/24/03 Mon

One needn't have had a nooner with Gunn to know what one is.
I haven't had a nooner with Gunn and I know what one is.
Fred was ticked at Gunn's assumption of a lack in her vocabulary, not to mention a lack in her ability go get the meaning of a word from context.

Remember the Partners are Social Darwinists (Spoilers 5:8) -- KdS, 15:52:14 11/21/03 Fri

Not seen the episode yet, but...

Everyone seems to be assuming that Eve and Lindsey have to be either good and fighting the Partners, or evil and fighting the Partners. What people are forgetting is what originally happened with Lilah and Lindsey in the second half of S2.

In those eps, the Partners deliberately brought the two contenders into open warfare over who would get the promotion. The Partners seem to believe that combat brings about the survival of the fittest in a Social Darwinist style. What if Lindesy is deliberately being set up as a rival to Angel by the Partners, with or without Eve's full knowledge, to see who comes out on top? The whole Angel & Hart thing seems risky enough for the Partners to get an alternative ready if it doesn't work out...


[> a good theory -- Seven, 08:39:09 11/23/03 Sun

that seems to my to be a viable possibility. Also, it is in theme with the idea that no one, no matter how they go about they're life (Angel or Lindsay)is really in control. They are being manipulated by higher powers. Lindsay may be a victim just like the rest. I actually like this idea a lot and it would be in theme with Lindsay's character who always has thought he was doing the right thing until he grudgenly, painstakingly, and kicking and screaming admitted that he was wrong. So maybe now, he really thinks he is doing the right thing and he will never listen to Angel until he is grudgenly, painstakingly, and kicking and screaming convinced.

Squeal!! I won an award! -- LadyStarlight, 21:01:36 11/21/03 Fri

"In the Presence of Mine Enemies" has won the Sundown award at the Shadows and Dust awards!

Big hugs to my wonderful betas (Dead Soul, Anneth, Wisewoman and VR) who helped immeasureably.

(shiny pretty award coming to a LJ and FC to you as soon as I can puzzle out the source code)


[> Re: Squeal!! I won an award! -- Dlgood, 21:44:54 11/21/03 Fri

I haven't read the fic, but go you!

LJ - source code for the award:
First, it won the "Seer Award" for best POV Fanfiction in the 5th Round of the {b}{a href=}Shadows & Dust Awards{/a}{/b}. {img src="" alt="The Seer Award"/}
Just replace the text, the { } with < > and replace my pointer to wherever you have the graphic stored online so that LJ can link to it.

If you don't have a place, let me know and I'll host it. Though I'll be out of town over the weekend.

While I'm being helpful, I'll note that I have that link because I'd won an award in the previous round of "Shadows and Dust" for Fatherly Concerns.

[> [> Thanks so much for the code, and congratulations to you too! -- LadyStarlight, 05:57:51 11/22/03 Sat

[> Congratulations, LadyS! -- Scroll, 21:53:37 11/21/03 Fri

Does the Shadows and Dust Awards have a website? I'd love to see all the competition you beat out ;) Heh. No seriously, I'm very happy for you!

[> [> Re: Congratulations, LadyS! -- Dlgood, 22:04:45 11/21/03 Fri

Does the Shadows and Dust Awards have a website?

I'm glad you asked. Check out Shadows & Dust. Click the link, Scrolll. You know you want to...

* Pimps self - I won "The Seer" award in the fifth round.

[> [> [> Oo! Oo! Me, too! -- Dead (but still shameless) Soul, 23:54:58 11/21/03 Fri

May I pimp myself, too?

I won "The Portal" award in the, I think, fourth round.

Should we devise a secret handshake, or something?

[> [> [> [> Congratulations to all three of you! Well done. -- jane, 00:44:40 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Break out the champagne! Congrats to all -- Ponygirl, 06:29:36 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> mazel tov to all! -- anom, 22:17:57 11/24/03 Mon

[> Utterly deserved and about bleeding time -- Dead (and taking no credit) Soul, 23:49:59 11/21/03 Fri

[> Congratulations!! Well deserved! -- LeeAnn, 00:32:36 11/22/03 Sat

[> Hurray! -- CW, 05:51:02 11/22/03 Sat

[> Congrats! About bloody time! -- s'kat, 08:58:50 11/22/03 Sat

[> Group Hug with Lady S!!!! -- Sheri, 13:54:34 11/22/03 Sat

[> Yea!!!! Many, many congrats!!!!! -- Sara, doing the happy dance for LadyS, 14:32:13 11/22/03 Sat

[> Go, Lady! -- mamcu, 15:57:34 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> Re: Way to go, LS! -- Brian, 06:31:44 11/24/03 Mon

[> Way to go! Congrats! -- OnM, 20:04:40 11/24/03 Mon

[> Brava LadyS, not before time! -- O'Cailleagh, 22:47:05 11/24/03 Mon

Cordelia prophecy in "To Shanshu in LA." -- DorianQ, 01:59:31 11/22/03 Sat

I barely seen any of Season 1 Angel (I came in about halfway through Season 2) and was saving up for the DVD but with the massive amount of references to the Shanshu prophecy this season I thought I would read the review of the episodes.

While reading the one from the season finale, I came across a transcript of a prophecy from Anatole to heal an infection affecting her visions that she had at the time (I think) that matches up pretty well for her predicament in Season 4. Here's a transcript from ATPOBTVS.

"And if the beast shalt find thee, and touch thee, thou shall be wounded in thy soul, and thou shall know madness, and the beast shalt attack and cripple thee, and thou shalt know neither friend nor family. But thou shalt undo the beast, thou shalt find the sacred words of Anatole, and thou shalt be restored. Three times shalt thou say these words: unbind, unbind, unbind"

Thoughts, anyone?


[> I think its a great connection...It's eerie to rewatch -- Nino, 12:36:58 11/24/03 Mon

Question about Destiny (Spoilers for 5.8) -- Cheryl, 07:14:43 11/22/03 Sat

Since I can't seem to get this episode out of my mind, at about 2 this morning something popped into my head.

Angel, with his vampire sense of smell, was able to smell Lilah and Wes all over each other. He also smelled Spike on Buffy. Lorne, even without Angel singing, knew that his "keep your pants on" comment was too late and that Angel and Darla had had sex. So, my question is, how is it that neither of them smelled/sensed "Lindsey" on Eve? Are those tattoos blocking Lindsey from being sensed by anyone and everyone, not just the senior partners? Most likely that's the case, but are there any other thoughts on that?


[> shower, soap, magic perfume -- Ray, 10:10:26 11/22/03 Sat

[> Re: Question about Destiny (Spoilers for 5.8) -- luvthistle1, 04:23:01 11/23/03 Sun

Well, Angel was able to smell Lilah on Wesley because he was familar with how Lilah smell. he might not be familar with the way Lindsey smell.....also that might not be Lindsey at all, but a whole new character. It could be one of Lindsey 8 sibling.

What are the essential episodes for You-Know-Who seen at end of 5.8? (spoilers for 5.8) -- Sheri, 13:46:12 11/22/03 Sat

I need to give hubby a crash course on Lindsay. What eps do you guys suggest?


[> Boy, that's a tough one -- Ray, 20:14:15 11/22/03 Sat

Here's my list, and this skips some of the little bits, just includes the big events.
Blind Date
To Shanshu in LA
Dear Boy
Blood Money
Dead End

[> [> Re: Boy, that's a tough one -- Alison, 20:26:25 11/22/03 Sat

I think you need Judgement in there too, so Lindsey's relationship with Darla is established.

[> [> [> What about City of? -- Cheryl, 21:02:20 11/22/03 Sat

First Angel episode and first time Angel and Lindsey meet.

[> [> [> [> Only a few lines. Not really a "must" -- Ray, 12:15:52 11/23/03 Sun

[> [> Which seasons are those eps? -- mamcu, considering DVD purchase, 16:04:44 11/23/03 Sun

[> [> [> The first and second. -- Rob (highly recommending DVD purchase!), 16:43:13 11/23/03 Sun

[> [> [> Seasons 1 and 2 -- Rook, 16:48:04 11/23/03 Sun

Most of them are season 2, but Blind Date and TSILA are at the end of season 1, and are pretty essential.

If you want to narrow the list down even further, you could probably cover the essential Lindsey in 3 episodes: Blind Date, TSILA, and Dead End. It cuts out all of Darla stuff, which while significant for the character as a whole, probably won't be focused on with his return. Those 3 episodes give all the basic background info on Lindsey, his relationship with Angel and his relationship with Wolfram & Hart.

Even cut to the absolute minimum, you can't really do an essential Lindsey wthout Blind Date and Dead End, which are from 2 different seasons, so if you're really trying to show the character, you're stuck buying both.

[> [> Of course that leaves out the... (AtS season 1 spoilers) -- Masq, 13:43:37 11/25/03 Tue

Faith episodes, Five by Five and Sanctuary, which show Lindsey pre-Blind Date and have interested Lindsey/Angel interaction.

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