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Where IS Miss Kitty Fantastico? -- Earl Allison, 16:38:43 10/30/02 Wed

Well, where did she go?

Did she high-tail it out of Dodge? Was she eaten by something? Or, and this is my personal fave, was she recruited to become a Vengeance Kitty -- to avenge all wronged kitties around the multiverse?

Here's a scary thought; was MKF transformed into Dawn? It would explain why Dawn was so happy around Willow and Tara, and come to think of it, we've NEVER seen Dawn and MKF together ...

Nah.

Take it and run.

[> My favorite (dark) explanation: -- HonorH, 16:43:58 10/30/02 Wed

This fic, by Maddog, could very well explain it:

Baby Steps

It's very short, and very much worth your while.

[> [> Re: My favorite (dark) explanation: -- celticross, 17:08:12 10/30/02 Wed

EEK! EEK!!!

Le Fey, on the other hand, loved it.

[> [> [> wow.......eek. But dark, mmm... -- Juliet, 17:45:55 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> I thought they already did this on the show... -- ZachsMind, 18:19:47 10/30/02 Wed

Makes perfect sense... In fact, I prefer this idea to the one they actually did on the show where Willow killed a random deer in the forest. Had they shown her sacrificing Kitty Fantastico, it would have had much more impact from a dramatic standpoint. They wouldn't have even had to *literally* show it. Just hint at it.

I thought they were going to go in that direction some months ago when they hinted throughout season six that demons love the taste of kittens. They didn't take it far enough, but didn't y'all find it strange that Clem was a "nice demon?" What did he possibly do? Most demons have some sort of a ...thing. Something that makes them stand out. Clem's big thing was too much skin. That's not a thing. That's a make-up artist challenge.

I hypothesize that Clem cased Buffy's house. He befriended the family and friends there and when no one was looking, he nabbed the kitten. I'm saying this, and I know it will upset some people. I adore Clem too. Just because he likes to eat kittens, that's no reason why those who adore Clem now should ever adore Clem any less.

Besides. I'm a dog person. Now if he'd been after sweet little innocent puppies? That'd be a different story.

[> [> [> [> [> Interesting idea...but I for one am really glad they didn't go that avenue... -- Rob, 18:38:21 10/30/02 Wed

...because I would never have been able to forgive Willow.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> You can forgive her now? -- ZachsMind, 19:31:28 10/30/02 Wed

She killed Warren. She may have killed Ratt. Or was that Rack? I never could remember that magic drug dealer guy's name correctly. Before she turned completely Dark, Willow killed that fawn to get the blood to do the spell that brought back Buffy. Had she killed the kitten instead of the deer, would that be unforgivable? Why is what she's done thus far forgiveable and not that?

Maybe that's one of the things Joss Whedon's trying to say in this series. True forgiveness is nonjudgmental. You can't qualify it. You can't go "I forgive you for killing this bird but if you kill that snake I can't forgive you." You either forgive them or you don't. For those you love, it's an unconditional act.

Here in this scene from "Same Time Same Place." Buffy forgives Willow & Willow in turn, forgives Buffy.

WILLOW: It's nice to be forgiven. Too bad I need so much of it.
BUFFY: I have a confession to make. I thought it might be you. With the flaying.
WILLOW: I know.

You never FORGET of course. You don't let someone fool you twice. However, you can still forgive. If it turns out Clem killed the kitten, would we forgive him? He's a demon. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe some would go, "well gee I thought he was a nice guy, but it figures. He's a demon." However, if it turned out Willow killed the kitten, we'd see her as a monster? She's already been a monster. What she's done. Whether she's murdered kittens or deer or humans, shouldn't matter.

You either forgive her or you don't.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But it does matter... -- Rob, 21:15:20 10/30/02 Wed

I forgive her, because out of the two people she killed, both were villains who had harmed her in the past. I'm not excusing her, just saying that I am able to, now that she has reformed, forgive her for that. Further, the deer was a horrific act, but was not something she was emotionally attached to. If she had actually, however, killed her own pet, I would not be able to forgive her, just as I wouldn't be able to forgive her had she succeeded in killing any of the SG. Because Miss Kitty Fantastico was something she loved, a symbol of her relationship with Tara. I would not have been able to forgive her for butchering her own cat.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, so what evil deed did that poor defenseless deer do to anybody? -- ZachsMind, 21:39:53 10/30/02 Wed

The idea of Willow sacrificing Kitty Fantastico as was suggested in that (nicely written by the way) fan fiction, is admittedly apocryphal. We never saw that on the show. However, in the opening episode of season six, Willow DID sacrifice that fawn. Sure it wasn't a pet. Not a creature that she loved like her kitten, but it was an innocent life nonetheless.

*Mmmmmmm... Venison*

Homer, shut up.

We can say she sacrificed the deer for a greater purpose, bringing back The Slayer and her best friend from the dead. Okay. The deer's just a deer. But if Willow had to sacrifice Kitty Fantastico to serve the same purpose, would that be any less forgivable than killing the fawn?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, so what evil deed did that poor defenseless deer do to anybody? -- Rob, 21:52:30 10/30/02 Wed

I think killing the fawn was horrible, like I said, but again, I think the difference lies in the fact that the deer was not something that Willow loved, so she was able to separate herself from the act. Slaughtering your own pet is very different than doing it to an animal in the forest that you have no emotional attachment to. And I'm not endorsing deer-killing here! I'm very anti-killing-any-animal, but for the purposes of the story, I, personally, could understand why Willow felt she had to kill the deer; I could not understand her killing her own cat. Now, maybe someone else's cat would be a different story. And I'm not saying that facetiously. I truly think that the difference lies in the fact that Miss Kitty Fantastico is her cat. If Miss Kitty were a dog, bunny, gerbil, what-have-you, that was Willow's pet, I'd feel the same way. If the deer were her pet, I'd feel the same way!

Rob

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The deer was definitely symbolic in the same way that's suggested in the fic... -- belle, 23:14:53 10/30/02 Wed

It wasn't her pet, but it *was* meant to be symbolic of killing off a part of herself. A deer signifies innocence and fragility, and natural beauty. Qualities necessary for the beginnings of love, in other words. That's what made it black magic. That's why the spell demanded that it be a deer, and not, say, a rat or a chicken. It's not just a blood sacrifice.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More than that - re-watch. -- BriarRose, 00:11:25 10/31/02 Thu

There was more to that scene than many people realize. But I'm not going to get into it because it seems to be a sore subject with a lot of non-Pagan watchers.*L

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't let that stop you ... ! -- vh, 06:53:34 10/31/02 Thu

I won't be offended, I promise! Please, do go on!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, please! -- Rob, 07:54:16 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> *Blink* -- HonorH (channeling Honorificus), 20:42:29 10/30/02 Wed

Kittens? That's what gets your sad-noids? Kill a few people, attack your friends, try to end the world, ho hum, but kill a kitten and face the wrath of Rob!

Rob, sweetie, honey, darling, love of my life--please tell me you're being all ironical.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh heh... -- Rob, 21:16:26 10/30/02 Wed

...Only partly ironical. I wouldn't not forgive her because it's a cat, but because what that represents. See my above response to ZachsMind. ;o)

Rob

[> Re: Where IS Miss Kitty Fantastico? -- Darby, 07:53:56 10/31/02 Thu

Keep in mind, everyone, that MKF's days as a kitten are LONG behind her...

But didn't she get some sort of spin-off deal on Animal Planet? Hmm, what was the name of that show...

...Or maybe she went to Becker with Willie the Snitch.

[> [> I like to think that she's there, only...um..blinvisible! -- Rob, 08:32:24 10/31/02 Thu

Musical wish list -- ponygirl, 19:26:34 10/30/02 Wed

Going totally fluffy here but... In a thread below I mentioned a small spoiler I'd read a about an upcoming musical guest on BtVS. It got me thinking about who I'd like to see playing at the Bronze on the show. My ultimate dream is Concrete Blonde performing Bloodletting. It's far too obvious a choice, but what can I say? I caught their reunion tour months ago and remain convinced that Johnette is a goddess who rocks among us.

What's your dream band for the Bronze? And what song?

[> My dream band would never be chosen... -- ZachsMind, 19:38:20 10/30/02 Wed

There was a local band here in north Texas called The Touch. They did a song called The Vampire Song which I've always thought would be ideal for Buffy. However, the band has since broken up. I could probably personally convince the guys to get back together one last time if Joss Whedon gave me a phone call, but I'm not holding my breath. =)

You can still hear the music of The Touch at www.mp3.com/thetouch.

[> Re: Musical wish list -- pr10n, 19:49:10 10/30/02 Wed

Oooh! Oooh!

My icecube's-chance band would be Blue Oyster Cult doing _Don't Fear the Reaper_, the ultimate sneaky vampire song in my book. Joss and I are the same age, so maybe he rocked to the tune at Junior High stomps. (_Bela Lugosi's Dead_ is the ultimate non-sneaky vampire song, but that's too obvious, like a Lou Reed song in a heroin movie.)

[Aside: How did Buffy gloss BOC? Blue Clam Cult? In an Anya episode, that should have been Blue Shrimp Cult.]

But I would expire if the band Low were to play anything at the Bronze, but especially "Closer". And they have a new CD -- oh wait, a pig just flew by my window pulling a "Not Today Buddy!" banner.

[> [> Damn, you beat me to it -- Dead Soul, 23:10:06 10/30/02 Wed

"Bela Lugosi's Dead" or, alternatively, David Bowie's "Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)"

"She had an 'orror of rooms
She was tired and you can't hide beat
When I looked in her eyes they were blue
But nobody home
And she could have been a killer if she didn't walk the way that she do
And she do
She'd open strange doors that I'd never close again
She began to wail jealousy screams
Waiting in the dark
Know what I mean"

(from memory, my apologies if I've gotten it wrong)

Oops, forgot this was a thread about dream bands to play at the Bronze, not a creepy Halloween Theme Music thread.

In that case, early Pogues or Radiohead. Maybe Bad Religion. And if the dead are walking - The Doors.

Happy Halloween!!!

Dead (speaking of) Soul

[> [> [> Oh, oh! Remembered another -- Dead Soul, 23:16:00 10/30/02 Wed

The Toadies, "Possum Kingdom." Now that some choice Southern Gothic vampire yumminess - you can just taste the inbreeding.

Dead (but feeling kinda typecast) Soul

[> [> [> Re: Damn, you beat me to it -- pr10n, 23:52:50 10/30/02 Wed

Who but Bauhaus, if we dark up the Bronze for VampWillow: "A trick of the light and too much caffeine," or alternatively, "The Virgin Mary was tired/tired of gossip."

And yeah, the Toadies was on my list too -- "Behind the boathouse/I'll show you my dark secret."

[> [> [> [> Re: Damn, you beat me to it -- Dead Soul, 01:56:11 10/31/02 Thu

Jim Carroll Band, "People Who Died." And anything by Joy Division.

Dead (and superannuated Goth chick) Soul

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Damn, you beat me to it -- ponygirl, 06:48:09 10/31/02 Thu

Ooh, yes, bring on the Goth!

If we're going back back to the 80's, or late 70's (and I know you wouldn't mind DS), howsabout The Buzzcocks?

Ever Fallen In Love With Someone (You Shouldn't've Fallen In Love With)?

You spurn my natural emotions
You make me feel like dirt
And I'm hurt
And if I start a commotion
I run the risk of losing you
And that's worse

Ever fallen in love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
You shouldn't've fallen in love with

I can't see much of a future
Unless we find out what's to blame
What a shame
And we won't be together much longer
Unless we realize that we are the same

Ever fallen in love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
You shouldn't've fallen in love with

You disturb my natural emotions
You make me feel like dirt
And I'm hurt
And if I start a commotion
I'll only end up losing you
And that's worse

Ever fallen in love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
You shouldn't've fallen in love with

Ever fallen in love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
Ever fallen in love
In love with someone
You shouldn't've fallen in love with
Fallen in love with
Ever fallen in love with someone
You shouldn't've fallen in love with

[> [> [> [> [> [> Or even -- Rahael, 07:00:58 10/31/02 Thu

Orgasm addict for Spuffy!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Or even -- Dead Soul, 07:38:43 10/31/02 Thu

Nah, Orgasm Addict's already been claimed for Spunday

Dead (but, hey I got to make a portmanteau word) Soul

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And anyway... -- Dead Soul, 07:44:07 10/31/02 Thu

Ronia and I had an election (of two) in chat and assigned "Closer" by NIN to be the Spuffy theme song - sung antiphonally by both of them.

Dead (and late for work) Soul

[> Re: Musical wish list -- Rob, 21:43:24 10/30/02 Wed

I would choose my favorite singer/songwriter, who I just posted about here recently, Ben Folds. The song I would pick--um, hard to choose! If it was needed for a more poignant mood-setting, I'd pick "Jane," the song I posted here earlier this week. If the scene was supposed to be more upbeat, I'd pick "Best Imitation of Myself," which is more boisterous, but still has a great deal more depth than most music you'll find on the pop charts.

Rob

[> [> Personal suggestion... -- KdS, 04:11:38 10/31/02 Thu

I'm with DS re Joy Division (can't listen to Shadowplay without thinking of Helpless - "In the shadow play acting out your own death knowing no more", and "I let them use you for their own ends").

Main suggestion would be Sixteen Horsepower. I got into them not realising they were a Christian band but they're far more thought-provoking than most because they aren't certain of their own salvation. Practically every one of their songs has BtVS/AtS resonances, but especially "Cinder Alley" which could be the Spuffy soundtrack.

lovely lovely carol sue
i see the heel of the father
crush the head of the serpent for you
an' that beast who found
his way up to your room
you know the one the one
who's colors are never true
yeah you do

yet all the while 'neath
his banner you did stand
'neath the shadow of his wing
do you remember
sorrow stands near an' close at hand
sorrow stands an' in sorrow's hand
the burning ember

he'll come a cinder
fire call the kettle black
the dark can only hinder it
it will not hold you back
nor tear you asunder

and the good shepherd
lo he left all the others
an' went to look for you
yes an' he did find thee
an' with bruised hands
he did unbind thee
brought you out
into the light of day

he'll come a cinder
fire call the kettle black
the dark can only hinder it
it will not hold you back
nor tear you asunder

o come and stand with me mother
as we wait for the master's voice
an' head that way together

he'll come a cinder
fire call the kettle black
the dark can only hinder it
it will not hold you back
nor tear you asunder

[> Re: Musical wish list -- neaux, 04:35:46 10/31/02 Thu

band- Saves the Day

song- "Freakish"

why? It reminded me of Spike's longing of Buffy season 6

As I'm talking my words slip to the floor
and they crawl through your legs and slide under the back door
rendering me freakish and dazed.
Well here I am. I don't know how to say this.
The only thing I know is awkward silence.
Your eyelids close when you're around me to shut me out.
So I'll go walking through the streets until my heels bleed
and I'll sing out my song in case the birds wish to sing along.
And I'll dig a tunnel to the center of the universe.
Well here I am. I don't know how to say this.
The only thing I know is awkward silence.
Your eyelids close when you're around me to shut me out.
I'll make my way across the frozen sea, beyond the blank horizon,
when I can forget "you and me" and get a decent night's sleep.
Well here I am. I don't know how to say this.
The only thing I know is awkward silence.
Your eyelids close when you're around me to shut me out.
Don't shut me out.

[> Ponygirl, you have great taste in music. -- Caroline, 06:10:26 10/31/02 Thu

Johnette is indeed a goddess. And she adds to Lou Reed, Neil Diamond and others who have written songs about me!

[> [> Okay, just realized that made it sound All. About. Me. Which it's not. Right? -- Caroline (trying to climb out of narcissistic stage), 06:17:57 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> [> Nothing wrong with that! -- ponygirl, 06:41:02 10/31/02 Thu

You're lucky, there are no songs featuring my real name. Maybe I'll have to settle for Wild Horses or something.

In any case I think we've got the makings of a great mixed tape with this thread. Oops-- dating myself. Mixed CD!

[> [> One more for your list (wandering further OT) -- matching mole, 11:05:19 10/31/02 Thu

My namesake, Matching Mole, have a song on their debut 1971 self-titled LP called O Caroline. Very simple, beautiful, and sad. The song was covered by Welsh group Gorky's Zygotic Myncii on their album Tatay in the early 90s. Just in case you're keeping a list.

[> Re: Musical wish list -- verdantheart, 07:14:57 10/31/02 Thu

Lately most of what I really like is classified as "indie."

I'm really into Songs:Ohia lately. I need to buy some more albums by them (I only have Didn't it Rain so far). Cockscomb Red is a great song, and might work nicely for Willow (though perhaps in her more confident, evil phase).

I keep adding to a list of bands that I want to collect music from and seem to keep adding songs from Badly Drawn Boy, Bob Mould, Electronic, and Mogwai. I certainly don't expect to see any of them in the Bronze, but you can never tell.

Spike -- in his former incarnation -- probably would have gotten into The Hives. Personally, I'm not that into punk, but I like "Hate to Say I Told You So" -- man, that rocks!

[> Re: Musical wish list -- Freki, 08:55:10 10/31/02 Thu

This thread is starting to resemble the playlist of a CD I put together for a Halloween party last week. I forgot Bloodletting, though, and I've had that CD for years. :(

Love Song for a Vampire by Annie Lennox would be another good song for the Bronze. It's just a gorgeous ballad.

[> Re: Musical wish list -- Anneth, 11:44:31 10/31/02 Thu

I'd love to see Blasco perform "Don't believe me" or, alternately, IDa (or is it I Da?) playing "Hearts don't break." My dream, of course, would be to see Belle and Sebastian, performing pretty much anything except for the stuff off their last full album. But what about Weezer making a show at the Bronze? Ah, the possibilities are so deliciously endless...

[> Vigiantes of Love, singing "Cleopatra" -- SingedCat, 14:57:07 10/31/02 Thu

[> Re: Musical wish list -- Pilgrim, 18:15:43 10/31/02 Thu

What about Dan Bern?
He's got lots of hard-edged songs about love and loss, self-aggrandizement, sex, and growing up.
This one reminds me of something Spike would sing about Buffy (not endorsing this point of view, I'm just saying):

Do you gotta be a queen all your life?
Are you gonna take that crown off your head?
Are you ever gonna come to bed?
Do you gotta be a queen all your life?

Do you plan on speaking this year?
Are you gonna keep everything inside?
Are you gonna keep all your great thoughts to yourself?
Do you gotta be a queen all your life?

Get off your throne
I'm alone
Get off your throne
I'm walking in the morning
I'm dying alone

Do you gotta be a queen all your life?
Do you gotta cake on one more layer of makeup everyday?
Are you ever gonna tell me what you want me to do or say?
Do you gotta be a queen all your life?

My EXTREMELY thin theory (a well known future casting spoiler and rampant speculation for S7 and S4) -- JBone, 20:14:47 10/30/02 Wed

I had this idea watching Angel. What if Charisma isn't coming back to AtS next year? Wouldn't it be a hoot if she was to return to Sunnydale about the same time as Faith? Now, all this is unbridled speculation, other than the widely reported return of Faith. But I see the big evil whatever it is as using Spike right now. But Spike is damaged goods, and I think the big brewing evil will cast him off soon. Then Spike will return to providing the scoobies with cryptic information as he eventually adjusts to having a soul. The fun part is that Xander falls under the control of the big whatever evil after Spike makes his getaway. But not like he was under the control of Dracula, no, I'm thinking said evil feeds off Mr. Eyeballs of Love, like using him as a battery or something. I'm not all that sure about that, but I do believe Xander will be under the influence of said evil, somehow. More than Spike is now. And Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Anya, Faith, Giles, and surprise guest Cordy have to save the world and hopefully not kill Xander. Maybe one or two of them go down fighting.

This is probably more wishful thinking than anything else, but I can see CC calling it quits as her original cast mates are about to. And I don't believe that it would be difficult to write her out with about a half dozen episodes to go on AtS. On top of all that, whatever is happening this year on Buffy would be accented that much more having Cordy around, for the last couple episodes at least. Besides, I want to see MORE of this zapit chick on Angel. Full time cast member maybe?

I'm probably reading WAY to much into Cordy reliving her graduation through the Sunnydale yearbook, but I would still love it. I need some kind of crossover, dammit!

[> Re: My EXTREMELY thin theory (a well known future casting spoiler and rampant spec for S7 & S4) -- Doriander, 05:47:33 10/31/02 Thu

Seeing her leaf through that yearbook made me yearn for a crossover as well. Anything. I'd be happy even if it were a prop, say, Angel or Wesley contacts Sunnydale and asks if they could borrow the pergamum codex. Tuesday, we see Willow send it via Fedex; Sunday, Hyperion receives a package!

I've just read through the S5 DVD commentaries transcribed by Rahael. So, Joss is a Paul Thomas Anderson fan, and particularly obsessed with the film "Magnolia". (Sidenote: PTA? Big Aimee Mann fan. Just saying). I confess, couldn't sit through the entire thing, and only managed to digest the prologue (which was really amusing actually), it's gist being there's a grand design to some things dismissed as coincidence (Everything's connected?).

Lately we saw both shows referencing each other moreso than usual, obviously in anticipation of next year's sweeps where we'll actually have a character crossing over (channeling that charcter, have to say, I'm juiced. Ahem). There's the thematic carry over as well:

-"from beneath you, it devours" and "slouching towards bethlehem"; do they refer to the same thing?

-Who in Spike's mind is Montresor? Fortunato? Could this Poe reference also apply to a similar revenge story that played out in last season's "Deep Down", with Connor as Montresor and Angel as Fortunato?

-Dream-Angel jokes he'll poke Dream-Connor's eyes. Manifest-spirit-boy pokes Dawn's eye with a pencil. hmmm... pencils. Buffy balancing pencils on her forehead. Dopplegangland, (coincidentally on FX this very moment) Willow, pencil, emotional control...actions of a character in one reality affects the unlife of another character in another reality.

So, "everything's connected". If "Magnolia" still inspires Joss, I WISH it'd result to some sneaky crossover of consequences. Wherein characters in one show go about their business, unknowingly affecting or setting in motion events for the other show (conceptually similar to Dopplegangland. I think "Run Lola Run" played with this idea as well: a fraction of a step to the right/left, fraction of a second, extent of stride, had dramatic effects on future events). A lame for instance, Cordy gets demoted (my fanwank) sent back to earth, and on the way down leaves a trail of pixie dust that land on Buffy who's out on patrol, which accounts for why she presently "glows" (ducks from a barrage of rotten tomatoes). Y'know, that sort of thing, only infinitely better.

Idle Speculation - Buffy and the Final Solution -- Darby, 20:19:45 10/30/02 Wed

Okay, say that ME knows already that we're headed for the big wrap-up, and that they really don't want to leave a marketable franchise for owners UPN and Fox to mess with (and they've learned their lesson and are committed to keeping their damn mouths shut). I suggested last week that they might be moving toward Joss' original intent of sinking Sunnydale into the Hellmouth.

Why? How?

Buffy and Joyce from Gingerbread (and Psyche): "It's what I do." "But is it really? You patrol. You slay. Evil pops up, you undo it. And that's great. But has Sunnydale gotten any better? Are they running out of vampires? ...It's not your fault. You don't have a plan. You just... react to things. It's bound to be kind of fruitless."

Buffy from Selfless: "I am the Law."

Could the pressure of defending the planet be moving Buffy toward a plan? After Anya, could her grays be turning back to black-and-white? If there was a way to rid the Earth of all demons, all at once, would Buffy try to use it? Who would support her, and who would fight her? Could Buffy herself be portrayed as Sunnydale's final Big Bad? Now that would be female empowerment!

And, she could be thwarted, leaving Angel (and his show) free to continue while tearing down most potential spin-offs from the parent show.

When my wife was young and had to go to bed before a program ended, the next day she'd ask her father what had happened and he'd answer, "They all died." Maybe it's time that was the real ending to something.

- Darby, letting his morbid imagination run wild.

[> Further speculation on "The End" -- Wisewoman, 20:54:35 10/30/02 Wed

Okay, I'm gonna just say how I think it's gonna go, and believe me, this is NOT spoilery, it's completely my own speculation--

BtVS will end with the last ep of Season 7. Buffy will close the Hellmouth, trapping herself and ALL the vampires on the earth, including Spike, inside. (Parts of Sunnydale may go, too Darby. I hadn't thought of that...)

In order for AtS to continue, Angel will have to NOT be a vampire at the moment this happens. Who knows what he'll be? Human, probably. All the vampires going away doesn't end the evil, of course. There's still Wolfram & Hart, hoards of other demons, and an ultimate Big Bad for Angel and Co. to battle in seasons to come.

Or, maybe Angel and Spike both survive the Hellmouth Slurp because they have souls?

The kicker is, Buffy will do this because of the threat of "from beneath you, it devours," who will not be killed by the Hellmouth Slurp, but will survive to torment Angel in LA. It's the ultimate non-crossover crossover!

Okay, maybe it's time for my medication...

;o) dub

[> [> Re: additional furthering -- pr10n, 23:58:18 10/30/02 Wed

I'm with you except: I want Buffy to be happy and smiley and lollipoppy. Can we please instead drop Ross from Friends into the Hellmouth? I'm ok with the sacrifice bit (Ginger from Gilligan's Island, anyone?) but Buffy has done her part.

[> [> [> Re: additional furthering -- yez, 10:43:56 10/31/02 Thu

I vote for Ross, too, and the guy from American's Funniest Home Videos and Tom Green, for good measure. Their combined forces could vaporize anything within a 50-miles radius.

[> [> What to call the non-crossover crossover? A suggestion from down under. -- Caroline, 11:37:57 10/31/02 Thu

Years ago when I was younger and living in Australia, there was an ad for a non-alcholic drink called Claytons. The line was 'It's the drink you have when you're not having a drink'. Claytons instantly crossed over into the local lingo and became an adjective to describe all sorts of things that happen when they don't happen (if that makes sense). So, referring to the non-crossover crossover, it would be the 'Claytons crossover' - the crossover you have when you're not having a crossover.

And Hellmouth Slurp? I'll never think of the apocalypse in the same way again!

[> Where I think they might be going... (more idle speculation) -- ZachsMind, 21:11:03 10/30/02 Wed

Admittedly, this is one of MANY possibilities that they could do, but I think they're going to eventually start to show the origins not of Buffy, but of The Slayer.

They can't kill Buffy off. They've done that twice. That's predictable. Whedon is not going to completely destroy the franchise to keep the networks from playing with it in the future. He'll continue to be on board future incarnations of the BuffyVerse in some form. It's his baby. Even Roddenberry had his hand in making Star Trek sequels until he died, and personally I think they shoulda quit when he did.

So the 'franchise' will remain intact, but that doesn't mean Sunnydale's off the table. "From beneath you, it devours." Devours what? What else? The town.

In season one, Buffy had to die in order to win. In season two, she had to lose her lover in order to win. In season three, she had to sacrifice Sunnydale High in order to beat the bad guy. In season four, an entire secret military installation got scrapped because Buffy could stop Adam but not all the other creatures Adam had incarcerated so he could use them as spare parts. When they all escaped, all hell broke loose. In season five? She had to die again, in order to save the world. Season six? Well ultimately, she didn't necessarily lose anything, but in the end she was pretty useless, and only Xander's utter stupidity (facing mortal danger with only his heart on his sleeve for a shield) saved the world. Let's face it. Buffy's not winning. At best, she's barely keeping the boat from sinking. The Hellmouth is a hole, and evil is showing up all over the place regardless of what Buffy does. She can only fight baddies "one vamp at a time. It's all I know." Well, that's not a good plan.

Giles was kicked out of The Watcher's Council once. Why can't Buffy be kicked out of being The Slayer? Technically, she's not anymore. When she died in season one, she was supposed to stay dead. Xander nixed that too. So, Kendra got tapped, then she died, then there's Faith. Though Faith sucks at it too, actually turning INTO a bad guy at one point, she's technically THE Slayer right now.

I think that the primeval force of what The Slayer is, that creature we saw briefly back in the episode "Restless" is gonna somehow show up and take Buffy's power away from her. She's sucked as a Slayer from an objective perspective. She's the longest living Slayer from all accounts, but longevity in this case doesn't necessarily mean she's been winning.

If you were The First Slayer, wouldn't you be kinda ticked off at Buffy?

[> [> Re: Where I think they might be going... (more idle speculation) -- amber, 23:50:50 10/30/02 Wed

>Whedon is not going to completely destroy the franchise to keep the networks from playing with it in the future. He'll continue to be on board future incarnations of the BuffyVerse in some form. It's his baby. <

Based on past interviews I've read with Joss and Co. it's my understanding that the networks (be it, WB, FOX, or UPN) cannot make any new Buffy show without Joss's blessing.

Joss owns creative control of the show and has copyright over the franchise,where as in most cases the network would own this. I've heard Joss explain that this was important to him because he didn't own these things when the original Buffy movie was made and as a result he wasn't happy with the end result. When he made Buffy the series he made sure HE owned the rights to it.

I've heard this is a big difference between Joss and Chris Carter (one of many differences actually...) Carter didn't own creative control of the X-Files so whenever Fox demanded another season he had to make it or they could fire him and just continue the show without him. However due to Joss's foresight there won't ever be any spin-offs or further eps. of Buffy the Vampire Slayer if he chooses to end it.

[> [> [> Show, show, who owns the show? -- Darby, 06:37:29 10/31/02 Thu

That's exactly the opposite of what Joss and Marti are saying now - see specifically
http://www.scifi.com/scifimag/december2002/transcripts/index6.html
for Marti, but I couldn't quickly find a close-to-identical point being made by Joss, although I know I read it.

I suspect that there are aspects of the current Buffy incarnation that Joss has some rights to, but probably not enough to keep the PTB from doing something dastardly. It probably is doubtful that the executives would continue the franchise without his participation, but weirder things have happened. I suspect that this may be more smokescreen, though, but covering what I have no idea.

[> Not again... -- yez, 10:47:10 10/31/02 Thu

I never used to think I was someone who needed happy endings or even relative contentment endings, but I don't want Buffy and the Gang to have to sacrifice themselves. I went through that with Xena and it sucked.

Slouching Towards Bethlehem -- TOK, 22:32:58 10/30/02 Wed

Okay the title of the episode as someone notes comes from William Butler Yeat's Second Coming poem. One interpretation of the poem is the coming and passing of the ages.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

Now in Joss Whedon's Fray comic, the demon urkonn tells of a slayer who banished all the demons from Earth. Now we know that Faith is going to guest star in Angel so perhaps she is the slayer that somehow banishes the demons from the Earth dimension which would usher in a new age and since Angel would become human upon completion of his duties to the tptb then he wouldn't be banished along with his fellow demons.

[> Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem (Spoilers) -- Darby, 07:42:52 10/31/02 Thu

It's hard to imagine that a network with rules about who can and can't cut their hair would allow such a drastic change in the character of a show - what would Angel be with no demons or magic? No matter what Fray showed, as long as there is a Buffyverse show on tv, it's not gonna happen. Besides, we've got 98 more years to still have a "21st-Century Slayer."

If the events depicted in Fray ever play out, it would be in a later feature film - but even that would eliminate sequel possibilities and would probably not be an acceptable plot to the studios.

Amber news (non-spoiler spoilers) -- Darby, 07:58:49 10/31/02 Thu

For those of us who knew that Amber Benson was supposed to return to the show in some non-Tara capacity, it looks like it's not going to happen. Check out

http://tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/021030b.asp

..but that begs the question, what would they have been negotiating that they couldn't work out? Would Amber have been looking for more than compensation, and how much would be too much? Was it for an acting gig, a writing gig, some combination? Curiouser and curiouser...

[> Read the same thing at sci-fi.com -- neaux, 08:13:44 10/31/02 Thu

I'm totally confused.

with all this major speculation on the Series coming to a close and then sci-fi posts an article claiming negotiations with Sarah Michele Gellar havent even started.. I find that odd.

and I was saddened to read that about Amber Benson

[> [> I know, very confusing... -- Rob, 08:25:06 10/31/02 Thu

First off all, re: Amber...I'm really disappointed! I was really looking forward to her return, and who her character would be. I was only spoiled about her coming back, not any specific details. Then I guess you could say that this new news an anti-spoiler!

And about SMG, I am having a little more hope in the show lasting at least another season. I just don't see SMG coming out with an official statement that no decision has been made yet if she wasn't at least greatly considering the possibility. I mean, she could have backed up Joss' statements, but, no, she made it pretty clear that anything can happen. So I have hope again. My theory about this is that, filming season six was taxing on the entire cast. It must have been a drag having to play depressed all year, and on the whole, even watching the cast on film, there seemed to be a lack of spark. Not for every episode--there were some glimmers of the old show here and there--but for a great deal of them--and remember, this is coming from a fan of the sixth season! And I'm not saying I didn't love the sixth season. Because I did. But, like I said, I'm not sure if the cast loved playing depressed and having their worlds come apart for a year. I think it was the toll of the year's plotlines. But this year, from the first episode, the show just seems revitalized. There's a bigger bounce in every one's step so to speak, and the actors seem to be enjoying themselves in their roles, like we haven't seen since "Tabula Rasa." The show did a complete 180 from a possible downward spiral to a full recovery, and whereas last season SMG might seriously have been considering leaving, I think this brighter, happier Buffy is having an effect on her as well. And I wouldn't be too shocked if she did want to keep it going at least through an eighth season. And if the quality stays at the level it is now, I really hope she does. There just seems something nice and well-rounded about an eight season run for a show.

Rob

[> Maybe re: contract negotiations... -- Rob, 08:31:05 10/31/02 Thu

...and obviously this is all just speculation, but I thought it's possible that she might have wanted to be paid more than she used to on the show, and FOX was only willing to pay the amount she used to get. That would make sense, since her return would, in "Buffy" terms, be high profile, since her character was so loved and mourned by so many fans. So she may have wanted, upon returning from the dead (lol), to get greater compensation. After all, she had been on the show for three years and only achieved main player status on the episode where she died!

Rob

[> [> Two possibilities -- darrenK, 09:41:58 10/31/02 Thu

My own opinion is that it probably had to do with residuals (the amounts of money that actors get when the show they appeared in is rerun in syndication.)

Regulars often have residuals written right into their contracts. With their shares getting larger with contract renewals.

Amber was brought onto the show as a character they didn't know would stay. Nor, did she ever get "regular" character status. She stayed a recurring character for 3 seasons.

There is a solid chance that she either doesn't get or gets very small residuals for her season 4 work and her share of residuals for seasons 5 and 6 are probably smaller than everyone elses.

Buffy wasn't even guaranteed to go into syndication until the end of season 5 so many one-time or recurring characters probably tried to renegotiate.

I don't think she'd hold out for a few larger paydays in Season 7, but, when you talk DVD's and international distribution on top of US reruns, then the amount of money becomes substantial and will affect her income for the rest of her life.

I imagine Fox actually tried to offer her more money for single season 7 appearances and she offered to take less money in exchange for the residual renegotiation.

There is also the possibility that she tried to tie her appearances in Season 7 to a distribution deal for Chance, which, so far, has not been purchased by a distributor.

Or it could be a combination of both.

[> [> [> We don't know. -- ZachsMind, 13:44:30 10/31/02 Thu

There's simply not enough facts here, and Benson's apparently not coming forward, or at least no reporter's been smart enough to glean a soundbyte from her lips. Some things are simply not going to make it to the 'Net. We don't even know how valid this is. It's plausible that Whedon and his people are purposefully putting misinfo out there to keep the spoiler types guessing. There may have never been a decision to bring Benson back, but Marti Noxon said that in an interview to get people chomping at the bit for it. The joke's on us.

[> Re: Amber news (non-spoiler spoilers) -- CW, 10:33:04 10/31/02 Thu

Joss said last year that they offered to make her a regular, but she chose not to apparently to keep her options open. There could have been any number of reasons for the problems this year, money, schedule, asking her to forego other jobs...

[> [> Re: Amber news (non-spoiler spoilers) -- Miss Edith, 09:17:18 11/01/02 Fri

Actually I think Joss was the one who chose not to make Amber a regular. Her agent gave the usual spin about Amber not being interested in regular status but I believe Amber later denied that. I remember reading interviews in which she said she would love to be a regular but whatever Joss wants is cool with her because she has great respect for him.
And didn't Joss say over the summer that "Amber will be back but not as Tara" like it was definate. I wonder why he would have spoken out about it if it wasn't confirmed at that time?

[> Re: Amber news (spoilers) -- Purple Tulip, 21:11:21 10/31/02 Thu

I heard yesterday that she's not returning at all, but I went to Buffyguide.com, and the summary for 7.7 has Willow waking up in the library and seeing Tara sitting across from her. So if she's in an episode that's already been filmed, then how can she not be returning at all? Unless what I read at Buffyguide is wrong.

[> [> Re: Amber news (spoilers) -- Rob, 21:36:45 10/31/02 Thu

Maybe that was a spoiler based on a leak of the original script of the episode, when it still seemed like Amber would be back. Either that or Joss' "Amber's not coming back" announcement was fake, and he did that to make it a bigger shock when she does come back. I'm hoping it's the latter, but I kind of think the former's more likely.

Rob

[> Re: Amber news (non-spoiler spoilers) -- Miss Edith, 12:02:41 11/01/02 Fri

More news from Amber's latest interview with Wanda. She implies that her accepting the role or not has nothing to do with money or negotiations but rather, "It's just kind of what my schedule is and what they want to do with the character. I've become really protective of her. I want to make sure if Tara comes back it's for good reason."

Those comments would have been made just before Joss confirmed Amber isn't returning. Perhaps her offer was to play a corpse? Maggie returned as a zombie and Joyce nearly returned as a zombie also so who knows why Amber was reluctant to return?

[> [> Re: Amber news (non-spoiler spoilers) -- Rob, 12:47:25 11/01/02 Fri

I don't think that that's the most likely explanation, b/c, the word was that Amber wouldn't be returning as Tara, but as another character.

Rob

O/T: My Favourite Day of the Year -- Wisewoman, 09:07:11 10/31/02 Thu

A Blessed Samhain to all of you!

Today is my absolutely favourite Pagan celebration (followed closely by Yule). And it's a gorgeous Samhain in Vancouver for a change--clear sky, sunshine, crisp and cold with the leaves turning beautiful colours.

If you feel the urge, spend a moment today to think of family and friends who have passed on, and try to imagine what messages they would send to you if they could. We believe that this is the day, above all others, when you might hear from them.

Blessed Be,
Wisewoman )O(

[> thank you! -- celticross, 09:12:53 10/31/02 Thu

Even though I'm not a pagan. :)

[> Re: O/T: Your Favourite Day of the Year -- pr10n, 09:16:59 10/31/02 Thu

Wisewoman:

What might I say to conver well-wishing, being a non-Pagan who digs Halloween and respects the fact that the celebration is much older than Christianity, to a person of Pagan persuasion? Other than the ubiquitous "Many happy returns," which may actually be more appropriate today than ever.

And is Samhain pronounced as an Irish word, so "Sha-min"?

[> [> )O( -- Lyonors, 10:41:45 10/31/02 Thu

Brighest Blessings to you and everyone else Wisewoman! My favorite holiday too! Although this year, I didn't get to take off of work. No rest for the non-profit arts slaves!

VR(and any other curious folks) )O( is a representation of a triple moon, waxing, waning and full. It is often used to represent the Goddess figure in Paganism.

Blessed Be!

Lyonors

[> [> Bright Blessings is good... ;o) -- Wisewoman, 11:03:51 10/31/02 Thu

I was told by a bloke who speaks Irish Gaelic that the pronounciation is SOW-in (like "cow"). However, I've heard it innumerable ways.

As to greeting, Blessed Be is ubiquitous, but very reliable. And "Happy Day" always works!

Thanks for asking.

WW )O(

[> [> Sow - in is the pronunciation. -- BriarRose, 17:26:30 10/31/02 Thu

[> And just what is " )O( " -- VR, 09:21:27 10/31/02 Thu

An angry cyclops?

[> [> It's not a TIE fighter that's ]o[ -- oops, TMI -- pr10n, 09:22:50 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> wings and a halo? -- Vickie, 09:55:46 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> LOL! Lyonors explains, above. -- WW ;o), 11:06:34 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> & it can't be green lantern, that'd be IOI -- anom, 12:26:26 10/31/02 Thu

Or maybe §. Not that I think Wiccans "worship evil's might"--I know better than that! I don't think there were ever witches, let alone Wiccans, in GL (TMI again?)!

"An angry cyclops?"

Nah, that'd be @>á (take it from my mutant cyclops smily). @>)

[> Good wishes to you. -- CW, 10:15:35 10/31/02 Thu

[> All the best to you. -- CW, 10:15:35 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> Okay, CW, how the heck did you do that? -- WW, 11:08:11 10/31/02 Thu

And both in the same second?

:oO

[> [> [> Re: Okay, CW, how the heck did you do that? -- CW, 14:15:24 10/31/02 Thu

It's a Halloween/Samhain miracle. ;o)
I've only seen mismatched double posts a few times before, and never at the same instant. Blame it on voy. I got a system hiccup from voy as I was posting the first one. As usual I tried to get all the way out (via go back to..., etc.)and check if the first one posted before trying to post again. I got back to the main site and saw nothing. Waited a few seconds, typed in the new message and voila! Two holiday greetings instead of one. As to why I got to have two posts in the same minute, you'll have to ask voy for their side of the story.

[> [> [> [> See? Two parallel universes. Told ya! -- OnM, 16:09:26 10/31/02 Thu

[> Bless, bless ...as we say )O( -- aliera, 11:52:28 10/31/02 Thu

[> Happy Halloween - TMI follows.*LOL -- Briar Rose, 17:53:19 10/31/02 Thu

)O( already covered. *LOL

Are there actual witches that do spells that work? Yes!

Blessed Be is perfect for acknowledging a Pagan/Wiccan/Witch. So is Nameste' (my spirit honors your spirit, roughly) or Merry Meet or Be Blessed, or any combination of Have a Blessed....[Yule/Samhein/Solstice/etc.]

Magick/Magic (Magick is one of two ways to differentiate actual energy manipulation from STAGE magic) is about moving energy. Since everything is energy, manipulating energy just takes practice and belief in your power to do so. It is the Oldest religion and practice in the known Universe and every Native Culture practiced it. The most widely practiced form of magick is herbal and faith healing.

I wrote this for an Australian friend a while back who was questioning the American seeming obsession with Halloween and I think there might be people here who might appreciate it.... Her Question was Whether the Witch Trials in Salem played a big part in the fact that it's fairly widely celebrated here......

A Purely American History of Halloween

Nope can't blame how us weird Americans do Halloween on Salem.~w~ In fact Salem was the US center of religious hysteria and persecution (unless you count the "Manifest Destiny" mind set that was used to justify the genocide of over 1 million Native Americans and Native Mexicans..... ) The blame has to be divided among the Irish, the Victorians and the Latinos.

The Victorian era (about 1838 - 1900) was such a repressive and boring time that the people conforming to it took up a huge interest in disguised hedonism. Diverse forms of Spirituality and erotica were running rampant behind closed doors, since the outward sociality was based in rigid forms of polite conduct and hiding anything that wasn't "proper" under layers of hypocrisy and cloaks of normalcy - to fit in.

So when the custom of "Halloween" (actually All Hallow's Eve, which there is more on that later in this treatise...*L) was brought to America in the 1840's by Irish immigrants fleeing their country's potato famine, it became a wonderful way for the Victorians to legitimize their fantasies of licentious conduct and outwardly display their hidden longing for hedonism for one night out of the year. At that time, the favorite pranks in New England included tipping over outhouses and unhinging fence gates. The American version of the Halloween Day celebration owes its origin to the ancient (pre-Christian) Druidic fire festival called "Samhain" (sow'en), celebrated by the Celts in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. This was a new year and a harvest festival all in one..... It grew out of the rituals of Celts celebrating a new year and the end of the planting season and mixed with Medieval prayer rituals of the Europeans. And today, many churches still have Halloween parties or pumpkin carving events for the kids.

The American version of Halloween is a truly "Mixing Pot" celebration... As European immigrants came to America, they brought their varied Halloween customs with them. Because of the rigid Protestant belief systems that characterized early New England, celebration of Halloween in colonial times was extremely limited there. The areas from New york down to Boston, (where Salem is) were still too strictly Puritan to have any interest in something they saw as based on "evil Pagan ritual." It was much more common in Maryland and the southern colonies. As the beliefs and customs of different European ethnic groups, as well as the American Indians, meshed, a distinctly American version of Halloween began to emerge. The first celebrations included "play parties," public events held to celebrate the harvest, where neighbors would share stories of the dead, tell each other's fortunes, dance, and sing. Colonial Halloween festivities also featured the telling of ghost stories and mischief-making of all kinds. By the middle of the nineteenth century, annual autumn festivities were common, but Halloween was not yet celebrated everywhere in the country.
At the time the Irish arrived in America in such concentrations, it became more widely acknowledged as a holiday, at least to the Catholics and Protestants. The mid 1800s saw the Americans taking from Irish and English traditions, and forming a day for celebration that was more about the harvest and centered on the coming of winter and the remembrance of those who had passed on. Americans incorporated a sense of fun into the celebration. They began to dress up in costumes and go house to house asking for food or money, a practice that eventually became today's "trick-or-treat" tradition. It was also a time to remember family roots of religion before the church(s) became so powerful! Old Pagan practices started to creep into the mix. Young women believed that, on Halloween, they could divine the name or appearance of their future husband by doing tricks with yarn, apple parings, or mirrors. There was a lot of focus on divination of all kinds and it was SAFE for truePagans to do so under the guise of "Halloween parties", so it made a lot of closet Witches very happy to conform while not conforming.*S* Kind of hard for the Church to come and drag people off when the every Sunday Church goers are doing in the Church Building what the Witches are doing in their own homes.*L

In the early 1900s, there was a move in America to mold Halloween into a holiday more about community and neighborly get-togethers, than about ghosts, pranks, and witchcraft. At the turn of the century, Halloween parties for both children and adults became the most common way to celebrate the day. Parties focused on games, foods of the season, and festive costumes. Parents were encouraged by newspapers and community leaders to take anything "frightening" or "grotesque" out of Halloween celebrations. Because of their efforts, Halloween lost most of its superstitious and religious overtones by the beginning of the twentieth century.

By the 1920s and 1930s, Halloween had become a secular, but community-centered holiday, with parades and town-wide parties as the featured entertainment. Despite the best efforts of many schools and communities, vandalism began to plague Halloween celebrations in many communities during this time. By the 1950s, town leaders had successfully limited vandalism and Halloween had evolved into a holiday directed mainly at the young. Due to the high numbers of young children during the fifties baby boom, parties moved from town civic centers into the classroom or home, where they could be more easily accommodated. Between 1920 and 1950, the centuries-old practice of trick-or-treating was also revived. Trick-or-treating was a relatively inexpensive way for an entire community to share the Halloween celebration. In theory, families could also prevent tricks being played on them by providing the neighborhood children with small treats.

It was also around this time that the American "Entertainment Industry" started to hit it's stride... There has become more and more fertile ground throughout the years of 1950 to the present for the creative arts to incorporate Halloween themes into varied forms of entertainment. A good ghost story will fit into an otherwise normal drama or tv sitcom, because Halloween gives us license to suspend our disbelief and look towards the world of metaphysical and supernatural areas of the human consciousness. A time to truly embrace fantasy for fantasy's sake.

Halloween festivities fell out of favor in a lot of the US's big cities around the end of the 1970's... Between the antics of the Easterners reviving "Devil's Night" (Basically in Chicago and Boston areas) and burning entire city blocks and the string of razor blades and narcotics being passed to children in candy and fruit by psychotics that wanted to end the hordes of children and ruin the fun, the festivities moved back to the community parks and churches/schools and into the home.

But something really interesting happened around 1985....

A fresh interest in reviving the customs of the European Halloween and other culture's versions of Harvest festivals or religious festivals was introduced into the US through the concentrated immigration of Hispanic/Mexican peoples throughout the last 25-30 odd years. Mexico has a big tradition of celebrating "Dias de los Muertos", The Days of the Dead. (There is more about the actual "Day of the Dead" available on the web....) There was a lot of focus on decorating and celebrating this season in the Hispanic communities. The Catholic Churches regularly held festivals and carnivals to celebrate the Day of the Dead, but most used October 31st and the actual date. So it started a trend... You can't look at all those Skeletons and Bone Cookies and not be reminded of the good times you had when you were a child! The non-hispanic Americans started to find a lot of usable ideas in the products the Hispanics were bringing over the borders for their observance. Boosted by the retail sector and the Entertainment industry, the holiday has been embraced again in the US.

For most people in America, there is no religious significance attached to it anymore. It is about being able to fantasize and play for one day of the year. One day without worrying about being so stuffy and business like. As the economy has become more and more driven by workers doing long hours and spending less and less time in any form of relaxation or on pleasure for pleasure's sake, it has become a day to finally let down our hair and have some fun. Most companies even allow costumes or parties of some type for Halloween. An American tradition was re-born, and it has continued to grow. Today, Americans spend an estimated $6.9 billion annually on Halloween, making it the country's second largest commercial holiday.

A more detailed history of Halloween, from the historical perspective:
Behind the name... Halloween, or the Hallow E'en as they call it in Ireland , means All Hallows Eve, or the night before the 'All Hallows', also called 'All Hallowmas', or 'All Saints', or 'All Souls' Day, observed on November 1. In old English the word 'Hallow' meant 'sanctify'. Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherians used to observe All Hallows Day to honor all Saints in heaven, known or unknown. They used to consider it with all solemnity as one of the most significant observances of the Church year. And Catholics, all and sundry, were obliged to attend Mass. The Romans observed the holiday of Feralia, intended to give rest and peace to the departed. Participants made sacrifices in honor of the dead, offered up prayers for them, and made honorariums to them. The festival was celebrated on February 21, the end of the Roman year. In the 7th century, Pope Boniface IV introduced All Saints' Day to replace the pagan festival of the dead. It was observed on May 13. Later, Gregory III changed the date to November 1. The Greek Orthodox Church observes it on the first Sunday after Pentecost.

Some Halloween Trivia?

The custom of trick-or-treating is thought to have originated not with the Irish Celts, but with a ninth-century European custom called souling. On November 2, All Souls Day, early Christians would walk from village to village begging for "soul cakes," made out of square pieces of bread with currants. The more soul cakes the beggars would receive, the more prayers they would promise to say on behalf of the dead relatives of the donors. At the time, it was believed that the dead remained in limbo for a time after death, and that prayer, even by strangers, could expedite a soul's passage to heaven.

The Irish originally used turnips and other root vegetables as their "Jack's lanterns" . But when the immigrants came to America, they found that pumpkins were far more plentiful than turnips. They were also easier to carve and could hold larger/more embers, giving more light and a longer burn time. So the Jack-O-Lantern in America was a hollowed-out pumpkin, lit with embers and later with candles.

----

And as for myself - it's a night to focus on rituals involving honor and respect for those who have gone before, letting go of old path ways and planting the seeds for needed growth and change. In between the trick or treaters that is. *S*

What has Watergate to do with Plrtz Glrb? (A2, and O. Stone's "Nixon" Spoilers) -- tricky_dick, 10:28:06 10/31/02 Thu

In Oliver Stone's "Nixon" the titular prez, played by
Sir Anthony Hopkins walks through a darkly lit atrium of the White House and pauses to talk to an enormous painting of his predecessor John Kennedy. He says, "when they look at you, they see who they want to be. When they look at me, they see who they are."

It is this same sort of profound duplicity that haunts the Plrtz Glrb arc of the last few episodes of Angel season 2.
I have watched these 4 episodes several times and I could never put my finger on just what it was that I found so interesting until I reflected on Nixon's word.

Examining the episode closely it seems that the intended themes are 1) Angel dealing with his demon. 2) Cordy going from bikini-clad pauper to bikini-clad princess. 3) Finding Fred. And lastly, 5)Lorne's disfunctional family.

but my theory is that the real theme is this: The Groosalugg represents Angel as he would like to be, and the Demon represents Angel as he thinks he is. Early on the there are indications of this theme when Lorne is describing his world in Caritas as "all black and white",
a place where heroes roam the countryside in search of glorious conquest. Angel lets on that this would suit him fine. Futher evidence of this desire is seen when Angel is welcomed into Lorne's clan, adorned with a hero's mantel and invited to tell stories to the children (clearly constrasting Lorne in the library who said he could only read the kids Harry Potter and pretend to be a pretend demon.)

Also this makes for more meaningful interaction between Cordy and Groo. For Cordy, Groo represents Angel as she would like him to be, handsome, strong, humble, and most of all not a bloodsucker.

What this all leads to is a final battle between Angel and Groo. Or we could say a battle between the two champions, the two sides of Angel himself, which ends only when Angel's demon "animal" side is subjugated and brought into peaceful accord with his good side, represented by the Half-demon Groosalugg.

In the end I think this is the best way to view Plrtz Glrb, as Angel in a world where he can truly be a hero without "the little moral ambiguities" getting in the way.

But I am guessing you all probably knew all this before.

[> Interesting... -- Masq, 11:16:47 10/31/02 Thu

"The Groosalugg represents Angel as he would like to be, ...Groo represents Angel as she would like him to be, handsome, strong, humble, and most of all not a bloodsucker."

In Season 3's "Couplet", however, Cordelia turns Groo in Angel--in the sense that she gives him an Angel make-over.

How does this fit into your view that Groo is "Angel as Cordy wants him to be?"

In that same episode, Angel himself swings between jealousy of Groo for having Cordelia's attention, and wondering if Groo should just take over as resident champion of Angel Investigations because he can "do everything Angel does and some things he can't" (i.e., go out in the daylight and save people).

This seems to jive with your theory about Angel seeing his ideal self in Groo.

[> [> Re: Interesting... -- yabyumpan, 12:35:52 10/31/02 Thu

Maybe it's also a comment about our 'ideal selves' not being as 'ideal' as we think.

Angel needed his 'non-ideal self' i.e. the Angel Beast, to help the gang rescue Cordy and defeat the Trombli(sp). Also, Cordy found out that her 'ideal-self' was not what she really wanted (something she learned again in Birthday).

"In that same episode, Angel himself swings between jealousy of Groo for having Cordelia's attention, and wondering if Groo should just take over as resident champion of Angel Investigations because he can "do everything Angel does and some things he can't" (i.e., go out in the daylight and save people)."

It was also in that episode that Angel found out that it was his uniqueness, his non-Grooness, which saved the day and defeated the Tree monster.

I think a lot of people (unless they're very self-assured) try to turn themselves into what they believe other people would like them to be, failing to realise that it's their own uniqueness which people are drawn to. We all have idealised images of who we'd like to be ; stronger, slimmer, taller, smarter etc,esp when we're young. One of the advantages of getting older is you gradually learn to be more comfortable with who you are.

[> [> [> speaking of cordelia... -- anom, 22:31:03 10/31/02 Thu

"Also, Cordy found out that her 'ideal-self' was not what she really wanted (something she learned again in Birthday)."

Finally saw Slouching (thanks, Sarand!), & I may have missed this in the discussion, but when/how do you think amnesiac!Cordy is gonna find out she's part demon?

[> great points! -- Rahael, 13:57:50 10/31/02 Thu

More comments tomorrow.

Just a quick question - what significance do you put to the fact that music doesn't exist in Plrtz Glrb?

[> [> Music (or the Lack thereof) in Plrtz Glrb -- tricky_dick, 21:52:55 10/31/02 Thu

I think it makes that if Groo is the idealized Angel, living in Angels ideal world, knowing how Angel feels about singing, there of course would be no music in Plrtz Glrb.

Who's in the basement? (Spoilers to 7.5-ish) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:05:15 10/31/02 Thu

Who's in the basement?

Season Four. Xander. The heart of the Scooby Gang. But with problems about self-identity. About defining himself. About moving away from his parent's scary example. 'Restless'. He tries to escape. Always a feeling of inferiority. Often a feeling of disorientation. Until, back to........The Basement. The one place Xander doesn't want be. The one place where he knows where he is. Fitting in as the comic relief to hard situations. The comic relief to his parents' dreadful marriage. The comic relief to the great Greek tragedies of his friend and Slayer. The comic relief to his own feeling of stagnation. With loud, crazy shirts. With the weird, sex-obsessed girlfriend.

Xander gets split. Realises he can be suave. Gets a job. Is great at it. Gets promotion. Humanises his lover-demon. Plays skittles with a giant tower. Settles down. Establishes himself. He has banished his childhood basement. He moves to a high-up flat. Upwardly mobile. Ambitious. Adult.

The basement will always haunt him. All it stands for.

'Hell's Bells'. The basement ruins Xander's life again. His insecurity. The cycle of failure in his family's marriages. His lack of belief in himself. In his relationships. The basement is still there. He still wants to be the little boy. The comic relief, with no tie to the big, scary adult world. He is drawn down.

Season Seven. Xander attempts to escape again. Basking in self-worth. Saves the world with his mouth; his heart. OOXander. Smart. Suave. Grown-up. Patriarchal.

But. This Season will conclude with a failure of heart. A failure of Xander. Hand will overcome. Patriarchy will be overturned again. Xander's going back to the basement. Before the Bang. Before the Word. Where he belongs.

The basement has an insidious effect on Xander's life. It stifles him. It is comfort, but it is dependancy. It is lack of self-confidence.

Meanwhile. Season Seven. Sunnydale High School. Look who's in the basement now. Spike. William. Poet. Murderer. Soul-possessor.

Spike cannot escape the basement. In there lurks his past. Lurks his insane present. Lurks his lack of future. There is comfort in the basement. Come in under the shadow of the basement. Hallucinations. Nice hallucinations. Buffy will help him. A Buffy will help him. An imagined Buffy will help him. Outside the world is hard and cold. The Slayer is hard and cold. Tells him to move on. Grow up. Tells him the only way on through his life is out.

In the basement, there is comfort. Darkness. Solitude. Spike is stuck there, with his insecurities. How can an ensoulled vampire define himself? How can he have any kind of relationship with the Slayer. He can't grow up. William has never grown up. Spike is a demon. A stripped down part of William's immaturity. Id only. William must mature. Must leave the basement. Outside he can learn. He can try to become a kind of a man who would never... to become a kind of man. He can grow up. Leave the shadow of rape. Leave the shadow of murder.

The basement has an insidious effect on William's life. It stifles him. It is comfort, but it is dependancy. It is lack of self-confidence.

Xander will always be drawn back to the basement- which contains comfort, but all his insecurities and imperfections. He will try to ignore it.

William must leave the basement. And he will. He'll struggle to grow up. Become suave. Become respectable, responsive, responsible. But he will always be drawn back to the basement- which contains comfort, but all his insecurities and imperfections. He will try to ignore it.

We've lost Clem. We've lost Giles. We've lost Angel. We've lost Spike.

We have Xander and William.

Who's in the basement?

[> Re: Who's in the basement? (Spoilers to 7.5-ish) -- Pilgrim, 19:07:25 10/31/02 Thu

Hmmm. Interesting.
Is it only male characters who are closely associated with basements? Xander and Spike, and we also have the evil trio, who lived in a parent's basement until they rented their own. That's a really interesting connection. Why are the men in the basements, but not the women? Often in other texts, it's female characters, crazy or otherwise unacceptable in some way, that get pushed to the basement (or the attic). Maybe the "conflicted male in the basement" theme is another way that male characters in this show assume some conventionally female traits.

You see Xander as a patriarchal figure? Maybe his rise in the world corresponds to a rising authority he asserts within the Scoobies? Hmmm, I'm not sure I see that. Xander seems as much a victim of patriarchal authority as any one else on the show.

So, is the show drawing a connection between Xander, who loves/craves/hates but is stuck in the basement, and the big bad who may live in the basement? We've seen at least one other big bad who was also stuck in a "basement," the Master (definitely a patriarchal figure). Do these stuck-in-the-basement characters give us a clue about what lies beneath us and devours? I don't know--not sure I can see enough connection between them. Do Xander (and Spike/William and the trio) have anything in common with the Master?

By the end of the season, Xander will be a failure, back in the basement? Will he and Spike/William change places? Xander is moving down, while Spike/William is moving up? I really like the comparison, but if I had to guess, I'd say that maybe the two will change places by the mid-season. Spike/William will be out of his basement, participating in the good fight, or at least seeming to. Something terrible will have happened to Xander, and he'll be back in the basement, perhaps even cooperating with the big bad, or seeming to, or failing in some way in the good fight. By the end of the season, who knows?

Electricity/ taser note (only the vaguest of AtS spoilers) -- SingedCat, 15:13:51 10/31/02 Thu

I was talking to a friend about my problem with the Angel episode involving electric shock, and how intense voltage didn't seem to bother Angel while tasers *did*. He told me there was no conflict. Here's why:

Tasers don't stun with electricity--heck, they run off 9/V batteries. They stun by modulation. Regular people can deal with far more shiock than a taser gives.

Given time, a modulated shock would surely have been used, but it was a unique situation, being dealt with on the fly, I'm sure you'll agree. OK, I will now trust the Angel writers just a teensy bit more than I did.

[> Cool. Thanks! -- Masq, 15:30:58 10/31/02 Thu

[> Re: Electricity/ taser note (only the vaguest of AtS spoilers) -- It never fails..., 23:13:50 10/31/02 Thu

people can watch an episode tv show whose main storyline is that, after being sunk to the bottom of the ocean for 3 months,by his NEWBORN 18 year old son, a 247 year old VAMPIRE-with-soul navigates the subterreanan network of the L.A. sewer system seeking a mystical relic that will enable him to find with his HALF-DEMON-beauty-queen-love interest who has been Shanghai'd into a higher reality by an demon herald named SKIP. And yet they freak out over little inconsistencies, like why a taser hurts but stun-lady don't.

I would be more impressed to know why everyone in Pylea speaks English?

[> [> But it's about internal consistency -- Tchaikovsky, 04:11:42 11/01/02 Fri

It's taken as read that the universe explored, the universe in Joss Whedon's insane genius mind, is not realistic. Some people argued that even the apparent strengthening of realism in Buffy's Season Six was detrimental to the show, (not me, incidentally).

We're not annoyed by vampires. Because there are always vampires. We suspend our disbelief. No. We go further. We recreate our belief structure in regards to the show. As far as the universe of Buffy and Angel goes, there are vampires. And there are demons.

But in this world, this complex, multi-layered fantasy realm, which in many ways IS just like ours, we need sense. Joss' universe, like our universe, has rules. Hence the long and intricate argument on this page about whether the Sunnydale Police were unbelievably reticent about all hell breaking loose in their neighbourhood. Hence the conversation about the taser. Because in this universe, science is like normal science. Physics hasn't changed. There's just an added layer of metaphysics.

It's about internal consistency. Not consistency with the real world.

As for Pylea, sing a happy verse of 'Rule Britannia!'. God bless my home language's plague-like speed at spreading through the known world and beyond.

TCH

[> [> [> Physics hasn't changed? -- KdS, 06:12:50 11/01/02 Fri

Just send me a cheque, and I promise you I'll send a robot that can pass the Turing test, blasters that shoot lightning bolts, a cool little time-freezing thing to give you eternal orgasms, and a refrigeration ray gun...
:-)
It's not just Hellmouth energy around Sunnydale, the laws of physics really are looser in the Buffyverse

[> [> [> [> 'Physics hasn't changed. there's just an extra layer of metaphysics.' -- Tchaikovsky, 06:25:21 11/01/02 Fri

Cheque's in the post.

While bowing to your supreme knowledge of Warren, as evidenced by your superb post of yesterday, I'm not sure that the things created by the Trio are impossible to build in our universe- just incredibly tricky. It would need up-to-no-good layabouts with unnecessary amounts of time and no other life. Bingo. We're happy to accept Data in 300 years time as an android. Lightning bolts just come from static electricity. I'm sure someone could make a freeze-ray if needed. Steering well clear of the scary eternal orgasms thing.

Just normal physics with a layer of metaphysics

[> [> [> [> Magic and science. -- Darby, 09:04:18 11/01/02 Fri

A universe with magic has to have some basic rules variations with our own universe's set-up. Even if you go by the assumption that the Buffyverse's magicks are reducible to physics laws, there are details (remember, that's where the devils are!) that still make the manipulation of primal forces different. In a universe where souls can be captured and traded (collect the whole set!), is a robot like April that far-fetched? Getting a gun to do something that demons can do with their physiology also makes weird creations more accessible.

And Warren had no problems with blurring the boundaries between classic science and modern magic.

OT - October 31st -- Brian, 15:40:44 10/31/02 Thu

October is a month of contrasts. We start with the colorful changing of the leaves as Nature goes to sleep, and we end with a celebration to wake the dead!

*******

May all your pumpkins be scary,
And all your candy be chocolate,
And all your costumes, unique.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN TO POSTERS ALL

Excellent post connecting Baudelaire and BtVS from Buffy Cross & Stake (spoilers for S6 & 7.1) -- akanikki, 21:58:36 10/31/02 Thu

http://www.voy.com/13746/1988950.html

Found this on WHEDONesque:Joss Whedon:
"Excellent post connecting Baudelaire and BtVS. It's up at the Buffy Cross & Stake. Catch it fast before it leaves the board."

I did not recognize the author as someone who posts here, but thought the post was intriguing!

[> Metamorphosis of the Vampire and my fav.....Cats -- Rufus, 22:40:43 10/31/02 Thu

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/5340/bflowers.htm

Metamorphosis of the Vampire
by Charles Baudelaire

Meanwhile the woman, from her strawberry lips,
(Like a snake on redhot coals, writhing her hips
And working her breasts against the stays of her busk)
Let flow these words, with a heavy scent of musk:
"My mouth is wet; and I know deep in my bed
How to bury old conscience till he's dead.
On these proud breasts I wipe all tears away
And old men laugh like children at their play.
For the man who sees me naked, I replace
The moon, the sun, and all the stars of space!
And I am so expert in voluptuous charms
That when I hush a man in my terrible arms
Yielding my bosom to his biting lust,
(Shy but provocative, frail and yet robust)
The mattress swoons in commotion under me,
And the helpless angels would be damned for me!

When she had sucked the marrow from every bone,
I turned to her as languid as a stone
To give her one last kiss ... and saw her thus:
A slimy rotten wineskin, full of pus!
I shut my eyes, transfixed in a chill of fright,
And when I opened them to the living light . . .
Beside me there, the powerful robot
That fed its fill out of my blood . . . was not!
Instead, the cold ruins of a skeleton
Shivered, creaking like a weather vane
Or like a sign hung out on an iron arm
Swinging through long winter nights in the storm.

Cats
by Charles Baudelaire

Fevered lovers and austere thinkers
Love equally, in their ripe season
Cats powerful and gentle, pride of the house
Like them they feel the cold, like them are sedentary

Friends of science and sensuality
They seek the silence and the horror of the shadows
Erebus had taken them for its funeral coursers
Could they to servitude incline their pride.

Dreaming, they take on noble postures
Great sphinxes stretched out in the depths of emptiness
Seeming to fall asleep into an endless dream.

Their fertile loins are full of magic sparks
And nuggets of gold like fine sand
Vaguely bestar their mystic pupils.

[> Baudelaire and Angel -- yabyumpan, 19:04:58 11/01/02 Fri

On a side note...

In the AtS episode 'she' from S1, Angel infers that he knew Baudelaire and that the poem may have been about him...

Angel pointing at the painting while watching the security guards searching for him: "On the left one spies the painter himself. In the middle distance is the French poet and critic Baudelaire, a friend of the artist. Now, Baudelaire - interesting fellow. In his poem 'Le Vampire' he wrote: 'Thou who abruptly as a knife didst come into my heart.' - He, ah, strongly believed that evil forces surrounded mankind. And some even speculated that the poem was about a real vampire. (Laughs) Oh and, ah, Baudelaire was actually a little taller and a lot drunker than he is depicted here."

From Psyche's site

[> [> Angel is beginning to sound like Forrest Gump with Fangs and no Shrimp..;) -- Rufus, 21:38:06 11/01/02 Fri

[> Thanks for the heads up! -- Rahael, 08:50:20 11/02/02 Sat

Anya is selfless-What aren't they saying? (spoiler) -- luvthistle1 ., 23:16:40 10/31/02 Thu

I believe the singing flashback in "selfless," was to show why it was so important for Anya to marry Xander (besides the fact that she loved him) she felt by becoming "Mrs Harris" she will finally be somebody. she would have a name, a family, and most importantly a place to belong. Although Anya had a name, she never had a place to belong. (I do not think Aud was her real name). Everyone watch and listen to what they are saying, but I find it more important to try to understand what they are NOT saying. It help to get an better understanding of which direction the story is going into,as well as to understand why Anya became a vengeance demon again.

Family- we see Anya husband, but what about her family. mom, dad
Sister etc. she also had no friends and was consider strange.

Name- What is Anya true name. she said that she not sure who she is. why? (it was before she became a Vd)Why did D'Hoffryn called her that name, before she became a Vd.

Remember- Anya told Hallie she could remember.....What? she was cut off by willow before she could finish her sentence.

D'Hoffryn- What was the real reason he killed Hallie , instead of Anya? Why did he favor Anya over all the other Vd? Was his interest in Anya business or personal (I think personal)

Willow- what was said between Willow and D'Hoffryn?

vengeance demon- When exactly did Anya become a vengeance demon again? Why haven't we seen Anya vengeance demon amulet? all season she seem to have been hiding it. Have anyone seen her wear one. I sure she did, But I must have miss it.

I would love to hear everyone speculation on the above question. Please feel free to share.

[> Re: Anya is selfless-What aren't they saying? (spoiler) -- Quentin Collins, 01:32:23 11/01/02 Fri

luvthistle, whenever I come across one of your posts on any internet board, I always know that it will be interesting. Usually your questions stump me and I have nothing constructive to add. Tonight I think I will take a shot.

It is curious that Anya did not seem to have any family or interact with anyone other than Olaf. My take on it is that she was even back then what we would call a "modern woman". She spoke her mind and probably rubbed people the wrong way because of it. Her way of looking at the world is weird sometimes even by our modern standards, so imagine how people with a Medieval perspective must have been puzzled by her. I think all of this shows us that she was always a bit of a misfit who sought something to grasp onto (Olaf, vengeance, Xander, the Magic Box, vengeance again, etc.). This grasping has always allowed her to define herself by something external without having to come to terms with what her true self or essence really is.

Regarding D'Hoffryn, I think he may have killed another vengeance demon who did what Anya did. He clearly is reluctant to do it. And I don't buy that he was "going for the pain" as his only motivation. He always seemed to have a fatherly bond to Anya which he did not have with Halfrek. Maybe he saw a lot of himself in Anya. Her vengeance work always seemed like artistry compared to Halfrek's rather workmanlike approach to things. Remember Anya would never have referred to herself in a P.C. fashion as a "justice demon" the way Halfrek did.

I am also intrigued by what Willow and D'Hoffryn may have discussed. I think she may have put the idea in his head that nobody was asking Anya what she really wanted to be. Judging by the interaction between Anya and Willow this season, I believe that Willow had Anya's welfare in mind and tried to coax D'Hoffryn to not harm Anya.

I recently watched "Selfless" again just to watch for the amulet. There are scenes set in the present where it is visible. Since she became a VD again last season, in most of her scenes, a necklace chain was visible but I am not sure the amulet was. But I am fairly positive that the amulet is in clear sight in parts of "Selfless". Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly what the scenes were.

[> [> Re: Anya is selfless-What aren't they saying? (spoiler) -- luvthistle1, 09:16:18 11/01/02 Fri

I agree with you Anya was the type of person that always spoke her mind. I think it odd that Anya seem like she used to like Bunnies, and wanted to trade them for goods. she had a keen sense of business ,even way back than .
They never actually say Anya given name, I got the idea that Aud might not had been her real name. I also notice that Anya told "Halfrek, that she didn't remember........What? They never say what it is that Anya do not actually remember, but I'm going to assume they are that it the spell that they are talking about. If Anya do not remember doing the spell, that could be because she didn't. But maybe a part of her did. I notice we seem to have more than one story going on at the same time. We have two Buffy in "selfless"(one dress in black, the other in white) and see two different Spike in "Beneath you" (curly hair dark root, and vamp spike from season2) what about Anya? I notice that Anya hair and Clothes change, within the same scene. She wears long blond hair and button up clothes and than for vengeances she has her hair short and brown, like it was in season 3. could there be more than one Anya?

Maybe it was Willow idea to kill "Halfrek" instead of Anya. But what would she have bargaining with?

I think that D'Hoffryn interest in Anya might be personal, he told her name was "Anyanka" with a air of familiarity. Maybe D'hoffryn is related to Anya, like her father or uncle. That would explain how she seem to be a natural .

[> The amulet -- CW, 05:18:42 11/01/02 Fri

Anya has been seen at times wearing the amulet recently. At first I couldn't understand why people were so concerned about her amulet, since last year we saw her change into her old demony self, when she attempted to curse Xander. But, clearly, others saw her amulet as not only as a source of power, but a symbol of her being a vengeance demon. I now think that's the correct view. The fact that she often didn't display it openly was a sign she never did go back to the 'fold' whole-heartedly. She was alwas torn between being the demon d'Hoffryn taught her to be (which was easy) and the human Xander taught her to be (which was much harder, but more satisfying). In Selfless she made the choice to take the hard path, but she discovered it was even more difficult than she thought. Being human is not simply a matter of being good or bad, but of bearing responsibility for your actions good and bad.

[> [> About that Amulet... -- tricky_d, 07:40:40 11/01/02 Fri

Xander kept saying "There has to be another way, there has to be another way..."etc., yet nobody realizes that all they have to do to resurrect the frat-boys and end Anya's demon obligations is destroy the damned amulet! I kept hoping that Buffy was really only after it all along, and she thought she would have to fight Anya to get to it.

The only reasons Xander didn't think of the amulet is so we could see Hallie dead (who was a bad influence on Anya, IMO)and so the blurred walls seperating Scoobie/Slayer/Demon could be a little more opaque (the battle lines are drawing and now we no what side the previously slighty amiable D'hoffryn is on, and lastly so D'hoffryn could get to do the great line at the end:

Anya: You should have killed me!

D'Hoffryn: Why so anxious? From beneath you, it devours... all good things in time!

[> [> [> Re: About that Amulet... (Selfless spoilers) -- Darby, 10:49:36 11/01/02 Fri

This was discussed here extensively just after the ep aired. Many assumed (but there was disagreement) that ending a wish does not negate its effects except in rare circumstances (such as The Wish, when ending the wish restored the timeline). Worm turns back into man, but the man'll still be passing parts of a dog collar soon (yeah, I know, eww!)- the frat guys would still be as dead as the doggie. We've been shown that Wishverse Giles' understanding of what destroying the amulet accomplishes was incomplete (many of Anyanka's earlier wishes, such as the wedding guy and lots of dead Russians, continued - they pretty much had to, or we would have seen 1100 years of history rewritten).

There's also no way to know what Buffy knew about the amulet, except that it was the key to ending Halfrek's wish-spell in Older and Far Away. There was much discussion on that, too, but it may have dropped off the far end of the recent archives.

[> [> [> Re: You should have... (Spoilers for Selfless) -- Just George, 11:00:47 11/01/02 Fri

Anya: You should have killed me!

D'Hoffryn: Why so anxious? From beneath you, it devours... all good things in time!

Long term, I think D'Hoffryn is toast. Anya is going to find a way to destroy him. She finally has something worth extracting vengeance for.

D'Hoffryn killed Hallie, Anya's only demon friend. Killing D'Hoffryn wouldn't be the kind of "over the top" vengeance that Anyanka used to engaged in. Not a dozen murders in response to an (admittedly horrible) humiliation. It would be a life for a life. Almost biblical vengeance.

I'm not currently assuming that Anya is human. The amulet chin is clearly visible in the post- D'Hoffryn scenes. Anya may no longer be a part of the "vengeance family" but I'll keep open the possibility that she is still a demon until I hear otherwise.

-JG

[> [> [> Re: About that Amulet... -- CW, 12:22:58 11/01/02 Fri

The point is that you can destroy all the amulets you want, but Anya can always go back to D'Hoffryn and get another one (at least given time). The story is not how to stop Anya, but whether or not Anya really wants to be a vengeance demon. Even toward the end of last season I posted that this was going to be a choice that Anya herself was going to have to make. All Buffy can do is kill her or not. All Xander can do is persuade her or not. Anya is the one who had to make the choice to give it up, even if she thought that would mean her death.

[> [> [> [> Re: About that Amulet... -- tricky_d, 14:03:49 11/01/02 Fri

yeah but, what was directly motivating Buffy to get Anya (the immediate cause as Aristotle would say) in Selfless was the deaths of the frat Boys. Get the neckless, erase the evil, then talk to Anya (obviously shaken and willing to get help--see Hallie). IMO.

[> [> [> [> [> Usually... -- CW, 15:31:45 11/01/02 Fri

I'm the last person to ask someone to overlook a plot hole that they see. I see your side of the issue. You are more than justified in sticking to your guns. But, I think the story of Anya's moral dilemma is what's important here, and Buffy's method dealing with Anya is secondary. Breaking the amulet would just put off Anya's decision.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: About that Amulet... -- luvthistle1, 16:31:26 11/01/02 Fri

I do not think that was Buffy. rewatch help again and than rewatch "selfless" (or was it same time, same place) rewatch all of those and note Buffy hair and clothes.

[> Re: Anya is selfless-What aren't they saying? (spoiler) -- Corwin of Amber, 08:46:22 11/01/02 Fri

"Selfless" was intriguing in that while we got an explanation of Anya's central conflict - she has very little sense of herself, or of belonging in the world (similarities to Buffy in the last season?), we still don't know that much more about her. The only actual new information we got was that she used to like bunnies, and she started the 1905 Russian revolt.
It occurs to me that Anya would make the ultimate religious cult follower. Having little sense of self or self worth, she would follow anyone who paid her some attention and gave her a sense of purpose. Although she'd probably ask a lot of embarrassing questions, and be considered the weirdo in the cult.

The Champion Challenge (An AtS contest)...up to 4.4 quote spoilers -- beast916 (formerly Sam Gamgee), 23:52:15 10/31/02 Thu

I am running a season-long contest on the Spoiler Trollop board, Angel's Soul board, and Defenders of Wesley. If anybody wants to play, please hazard a guess. A person may only guess once, so no Leora vote on one board and Rufus on another.

Week 1: Angel
Week 2: Dinza
Week 3: Gunn
Week 4: Fred

Who will say "champion" on this week's episode? Last week, five people correctly guessed it was Fred. Can you guess who will say it this week? Will anybody say it?

I think I am going to run a contest to last the season. The person who correctly picks the person who says the word the most times will receive a prize, determined by me, when I have the time to figure it out. I will keep tracks of point totals throughout the season, and post them in my Belly of the Beast reviews.

And, the same as last week, if nobody says it, I will write 100 words on why Angel is the best character on television.

[> Masquerade......definately........<g>.....or Cordy......;)spoilers for Masq's inner thoughts..:) -- Rufus, 23:55:29 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> Addendum -- beast916, 23:58:52 10/31/02 Thu

This can refer to any character. It does not have to refer to Angel. Just as long as somebody says it, it counts. And no reediting videotape, and sending it to me, saying my reception was bad.

[> Cordelia, referring to either Connor or Angel -- Doug the Bloody, 06:05:53 11/01/02 Fri

[> Wesley, using the term sarcastically -- Scroll, 06:11:36 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> Lilah, referring to Angel (NT) -- mmm, 06:28:18 11/01/02 Fri

[> Write the 100 words anyway -- Masq, 06:39:39 11/01/02 Fri

I'll read them!

[> [> Masq, Rufus let me know you're an Angel fan -- beast916, 09:21:43 11/01/02 Fri

but I only write if it's not said. It's a little punishment for me, because Angel is not a favorite of mine (although Gunn has taken over for the least favorite).

My feeling is I will have to write the 100 words. The episode being Fred-centric and new writers make me think this for some reason.

[> Conor. -- Solitude1056, 07:33:38 11/01/02 Fri

[> Re: The Champion Challenge (An AtS contest)...up to 4.4 quote spoilers -- LadyStarlight, 08:50:37 11/01/02 Fri

I was so going to say Fred last time. I think I should get half a point for that.

But this time, I vote Connor.

[> This brings up an interesting question... -- tim, 09:07:14 11/01/02 Fri

First, let me guess Lorne, simply because no one else has guessed him yet.

Now, can anyone tell me when Angel received the official designation of Champion? I borrowed the first two seasons of the show recently to catch up on what I had missed (thanks again, Little Bit), and kept expecting there to be a moment when he would be officially knighted (or something). That moment never came. IIRC, as early as the first episode, Doyle referred to him as "the people's champion," but that seemed rather informal to me at the time. Is there ever a moment when he goes from being a champion to being a Champion? If not, how did it become such a big deal? And in either case, what exactly are the attributes of a Champion, or do we not know?

In other words, if I picked up a copy of So You Want to Be a Champion, what would it tell me to do? (i've been eyeing a career change lately. ;) )

--th

[> [> I don't think that line of work has a good retirement plan ... -- vh, 14:28:52 11/01/02 Fri

[> Agreeing with Solitude1056 and LadyStarlight -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:09:13 11/01/02 Fri

I think it'll be Connor. Though I was a hairsbreadth from guessing Lorne.

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